irclog2html for #bzflag on 20050816

`00:00.07`	`TD-Linux`	`it's still supposed to make the games run faster`
`00:00.08`	`blast007`	`ah yeah, guess it was 6600GT`
`00:00.13`	`JeffM2501`	`TD-Linux, no it's not`
`00:00.18`	`TD-Linux`	`oh`
`00:00.26`	`JeffM2501`	`if the profile isn't there, it's not used.`
`00:00.30`	`JeffM2501`	`at all`
`00:00.40`	`TD-Linux`	`can you make a custom profile with the nVidia drivers?`
`00:00.47`	`TD-Linux`	`and assign it to a game?`
`00:00.50`	`JeffM2501`	`you can try`
`00:01.01`	`JeffM2501`	`you have to know what settings to set`
`00:01.05`	`JeffM2501`	`and what calls the game makes`
`00:01.21`	`TD-Linux`	`for BZFlag I would guess that Scissor would be best`
`00:01.23`	`JeffM2501`	`and even them some games may do things in ways that make SLI slower`
`00:01.40`	`JeffM2501`	`bzflag would not be a good candidate`
`00:01.47`	`JeffM2501`	`all the context flushes would probalby stall em`
`00:01.51`	`TD-Linux`	`ok`
`00:01.52`	`JeffM2501`	`we don't use shaders`
`00:02.02`	`JeffM2501`	`and most of the time is spent computing visiability`
`00:02.17`	`JeffM2501`	`we can't even realy push most FXs to there GPU limits`
`00:02.31`	`TD-Linux`	`I noticed that my bzflag frame rate never goes above about 150 fps no matter what`
`00:02.46`	`JeffM2501`	`are you vsycned`
`00:03.02`	`TD-Linux`	`uhh... is that in game options, or do I force it with Catalyst?`
`00:03.05`	`TD-Linux`	`I know I can force it`
`00:03.09`	`TD-Linux`	`but I am not forcing it`
`00:03.11`	`JeffM2501`	`it is a driver thing`
`00:03.20`	`JeffM2501`	`then your hiting your CPU limit`
`00:03.25`	`TD-Linux`	`no, not vsynced`
`00:03.29`	`JeffM2501`	`use simpler maps`
`00:04.08`	`TD-Linux`	`It dosen't matter anyway, display is refreshed at 85hz :)`
`00:04.24`	`JeffM2501`	`it will matter when you get to higher object count maps`
`00:04.36`	`TD-Linux`	`ok`
`00:04.47`	`TD-Linux`	`I'll mess with the driver`
`00:05.06`	`TD-Linux`	`are any graphical improvements planned with bzflag?`
`00:05.15`	`TD-Linux`	`or is the plan to keep it simple?`
`00:05.16`	`JeffM2501`	`planned?`
`00:05.20`	`JeffM2501`	`plan?`
`00:05.31`	`*** join/#bzflag BinarySpike (n=BinarySp@206-113-020-023.plateautel.net)`
`00:05.33`	`TD-Linux`	`nevermind, forgot about planning and open-source`
`00:06.09`	`BinarySpike`	`Hi guys!`
`00:06.11`	`JeffM2501`	`it has been decreed that the gameplay be kept simple, and we still work on old sofware rendering systems`
`00:06.34`	`TD-Linux`	`I have to say, that's not what I wanted to hear`
`00:06.35`	`BinarySpike`	`What are you talking about?`
`00:06.45`	`TD-Linux`	`BZFlag`
`00:06.49`	`JeffM2501`	`TD-Linux, you can allways fork`
`00:07.15`	`JeffM2501`	`if we went to a more hardware centric system, you'd not be able to play on your little linux machine`
`00:07.54`	`JeffM2501`	`you don't have shaders`
`00:07.58`	`JeffM2501`	`nor do most imacs`
`00:08.01`	`BinarySpike`	`Ahha`
`00:08.24`	`BinarySpike`	`You want to use video card features in bzflag? right?`
`00:08.37`	`JeffM2501`	`we are using video card features`
`00:08.48`	`JeffM2501`	`umm yeah`
`00:08.52`	`*** join/#bzflag BinarySpike (n=BinarySp@206-113-020-023.plateautel.net)`
`00:08.57`	`JeffM2501`	`have fun?`
`00:09.23`	`BinarySpike`	`Stupid shareware irc client....`
`00:09.28`	`JeffM2501`	`get a real one`
`00:09.31`	`JeffM2501`	`like xchat`
`00:09.38`	`BinarySpike`	`xchat is like panther and up...`
`00:09.50`	`BinarySpike`	`I have a couple free ones but I love this one`
`00:09.51`	`JeffM2501`	`sucks to be you then`
`00:10.03`	`BinarySpike`	`anywayz... I have a question...`
`00:10.10`	`JeffM2501`	`go for it`
`00:10.17`	`BinarySpike`	`I'm emplementing the /give command into bzfs...`
`00:10.41`	`blast007`	`/give me lots of money`
`00:10.47`	`BinarySpike`	`Where would I store the flag info for the /give command? GameKeeper?`
`00:10.48`	`JeffM2501`	`ok, and....?`
`00:10.49`	`brlcad`	`<PROTECTED>`
`00:10.58`	`JeffM2501`	`flag info?`
`00:11.08`	`JeffM2501`	`what do you need to store?`
`00:11.15`	`blast007`	`what does /give do?`
`00:11.19`	`JeffM2501`	`and is it per player?`
`00:11.27`	`BinarySpike`	`ok, let me type it all out...`
`00:11.40`	`JeffM2501`	`he wants to be able to give somone a flag`
`00:11.44`	`JeffM2501`	`specificly`
`00:12.19`	`BinarySpike`	`when a user calls the /give command (/give user flag) the next time the person picks up a flag the server overrides the current flag and gives them the other flag.`
`00:12.32`	`JeffM2501`	`so it is per player`
`00:12.36`	`BinarySpike`	`yes`
`00:12.36`	`JeffM2501`	`store it in the player data`
`00:12.44`	`JeffM2501`	`like where callsign and stuff are`
`00:12.56`	`BinarySpike`	`yes, but where is that? gamekeeper?`
`00:13.10`	`JeffM2501`	`parts of it are`
`00:13.21`	`JeffM2501`	`just find out where getCallsign() is defined`
`00:13.38`	`JeffM2501`	`simple right click-> go to definition`
`00:13.55`	`BinarySpike`	`in xcode?`
`00:14.06`	`BinarySpike`	`cause there is no goto definition in PB`
`00:14.15`	`JeffM2501`	`there has to be a way`
`00:14.21`	`JeffM2501`	`in nearly any IDE`
`00:14.30`	`JeffM2501`	`if not, what good is it as an IDE?`
`00:14.43`	`JeffM2501`	`hell a simple search would work even`
`00:14.48`	`BinarySpike`	`It probably needs a project file`
`00:14.56`	`BinarySpike`	`and searches on this computer take forever`
`00:15.05`	`JeffM2501`	`somehow I doubt that`
`00:15.07`	`BinarySpike`	`(and not always come up with answers when I know they are there)`
`00:15.21`	`blast007`	`just search in the source directory, in files ending of type .cxx, .h`
`00:15.39`	`blast007`	`heck, I can run searches on my 133MHz computer`
`00:15.40`	`JeffM2501`	`struct PlayerInfo {`
`00:15.47`	`JeffM2501`	`in playerinfo.h`
`00:15.48`	`BinarySpike`	`Yes I see it`
`00:15.57`	`JeffM2501`	`wasn't so hard now was it?`
`00:16.00`	`BinarySpike`	`const char*getCallsign() const;`
`00:16.03`	`JeffM2501`	`that was a short foever`
`00:16.09`	`BinarySpike`	`No, because I had the window open`
`00:16.17`	`JeffM2501`	`keep it in there`
`00:16.23`	`JeffM2501`	`thats per player data`
`00:16.27`	`JeffM2501`	`or keep it in your own map`
`00:16.31`	`JeffM2501`	`or keep it in an array`
`00:16.34`	`JeffM2501`	`where ever you want`
`00:17.01`	`BinarySpike`	`I need to be able to reference it in commands.cxx and in bzfs.cxx only... but per-player...`
`00:17.12`	`JeffM2501`	`make the map key be the player ID`
`00:17.17`	`JeffM2501`	`then just expose your map where you need it`
`00:17.35`	`JeffM2501`	`accessing a variable in another file isn't too hard ;)`
`00:17.41`	`BinarySpike`	`Not at all...`
`00:18.08`	`*** join/#bzflag me1 (n=me1@pool-151-203-200-200.bos.east.verizon.net)`
`00:19.20`	`BinarySpike`	`Wow, you can put functions in a .h?`
`00:19.41`	`JeffM2501`	`why not?`
`00:19.57`	`BinarySpike`	`Strange... I thought it was possible but never tryed it...`
`00:20.03`	`JeffM2501`	`why would it not be?`
`00:20.16`	`BinarySpike`	`I have no idea.`
`00:20.17`	`JeffM2501`	`the file extension dosn't really mean anything`
`00:20.32`	`JeffM2501`	`you can include C and Cxx files too if you realy wanted to`
`00:20.46`	`JeffM2501`	`but then you'd get a savage beating by anyone else who'd have to use your crap code after you did it :)`
`00:21.06`	`BinarySpike`	`actualy one of my old compiler would error if I included anything it didn't understand.`
`00:21.21`	`JeffM2501`	`dosn't sound C compliant then`
`00:21.51`	`BinarySpike`	`Well, I think the things I tested with #include might have been junk...`
`00:22.38`	`BinarySpike`	`ok... now I have my variable in the PlayerInfo... how do I change it?`
`00:22.49`	`JeffM2501`	`wow`
`00:22.53`	`JeffM2501`	`really?`
`00:23.04`	`JeffM2501`	`do you want me to just write it for you?`
`00:23.08`	`BinarySpike`	`No`
`00:23.14`	`BinarySpike`	`Let me re-phrase that`
`00:23.29`	`JeffM2501`	`then use just a smidge of initaive in it would ya?`
`00:23.44`	`JeffM2501`	`you have many examples in front of you how variables are accessed`
`00:23.50`	`JeffM2501`	`look at them`
`00:23.55`	`BinarySpike`	`nvm`
`00:24.27`	`BinarySpike`	`I meant where is my variable defined so that I can reference it.`
`00:24.40`	`JeffM2501`	`in the playerInfo`
`00:24.43`	`JeffM2501`	`where you put it`
`00:25.13`	`BinarySpike`	`I know that... but how do I reference the variable if I don't know what the name of the defenition is?`
`00:25.28`	`JeffM2501`	`you look at how OTHER variables in the same structure as yours are used`
`00:25.34`	`JeffM2501`	`you read the code`
`00:25.36`	`JeffM2501`	`follow it`
`00:25.38`	`JeffM2501`	`and learn a bit`
`00:25.44`	`JeffM2501`	`rather then beeing spoon feed`
`00:26.12`	`JeffM2501`	`you keep telling me you've made so many games and apps, just follow the code`
`00:26.42`	`BinarySpike`	`Yeah... But there are like a max of five source files to all my apps.`
`00:26.49`	`JeffM2501`	`so what?`
`00:26.49`	`BinarySpike`	`(not including .h files)`
`00:26.59`	`JeffM2501`	`that's just a mater of scope`
`00:27.07`	`BinarySpike`	`It took me ten minutes to find where all the Msg were defined at`
`00:27.09`	`JeffM2501`	`not a mater of how you do it`
`00:27.38`	`BinarySpike`	`Seeeeee`
`00:27.55`	`BinarySpike`	`GameKeeper::Player *playerData`
`00:27.55`	`BinarySpike`	`<PROTECTED>`
`00:28.07`	`BinarySpike`	`playerData->player.endShotCredit = 0;`
`00:28.29`	`BinarySpike`	`You don't even have a global variable for the players... so where is all the players defined at?`
`00:28.54`	`BinarySpike`	`When GameKeeper::Player is inited does it just fill in all the player data?`
`00:29.13`	`JeffM2501`	`look at identify`
`00:30.39`	`JeffM2501`	`we do have a varialbe`
`00:30.50`	`JeffM2501`	`it's just stored staticly`
`00:31.00`	`JeffM2501`	`where do you think getPlayerByIndex gets it`
`00:31.08`	`JeffM2501`	`it's called an "Accessor"`
`00:31.25`	`JeffM2501`	`so that every function that uses a player index dosn't have to validate it`
`00:33.35`	`JeffM2501`	`take a look at IdentifyCommand in commands.cxx`
`00:33.47`	`BinarySpike`	`So when I create a gamekeeper datastructure and call getPlayerByIndex(); the player data is stored in PlayerInfoplayer; ?`
`00:33.49`	`JeffM2501`	`it's going to do stuff like what you need to do, aka set data in the player record`
`00:34.01`	`JeffM2501`	`you never make a gamekeeper`
`00:34.20`	`JeffM2501`	`you make a Player pointer`
`00:34.35`	`JeffM2501`	`and then set it to the pointer for the real data`
`00:34.47`	`JeffM2501`	`it's just a pointer`
`00:34.49`	`JeffM2501`	`not a copy`
`00:34.52`	`BinarySpike`	`look at the first thing in addPlayer (in bzfs)`
`00:34.56`	`BinarySpike`	`GameKeeper::Player *playerData`
`00:34.58`	`BinarySpike`	`<PROTECTED>`
`00:35.09`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah that makes a Player pointer`
`00:35.21`	`BinarySpike`	`playerData a pointer?`
`00:35.24`	`JeffM2501`	`it's a * of type Player, as defined in the GameKeeper namespace`
`00:35.31`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah see the *?`
`00:35.38`	`BinarySpike`	`Ys`
`00:35.38`	`BinarySpike`	`*yes`
`00:35.56`	`JeffM2501`	`and if you remember from chapeter 2 of you C primer, * means "pointer"`
`00:36.04`	`BinarySpike`	`no`
`00:36.08`	`BinarySpike`	`j/k`
`00:36.23`	`meacan`	`JeffM2501: is it on purpose that when bzfs fails to load a plugin it silently discards it (only if you use debugging you'll see that it didnt load it)`
`00:36.35`	`JeffM2501`	`the stuff before the :: is just classes and namespaces where the functions and types are stored`
`00:36.48`	`JeffM2501`	`meacan, no that code is kinda busted`
`00:36.54`	`JeffM2501`	`it's on my list to fix`
`00:37.11`	`meacan`	`Ah, goody :)`
`00:39.30`	`*** join/#bzflag BinarySpike (n=BinarySp@206-113-020-023.plateautel.net)`
`00:40.17`	`JeffM2501`	`meacan, it wasn't up till recently that the loadplugin function actualy had a return value :)`
`00:40.35`	`meacan`	`JeffM2501: hehe :)`
`00:41.09`	`BinarySpike`	`Ok, so the /give data defined in PlayerInfo.h can be referenced through the first arg. (GameKeeper::Player *playerData) of all the handle___Cmd() in commands.cxx ?????`
`00:41.33`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 * 10bzflag/src/bzfs/bzfs.cxx: print a debug0 warning if a plugin in the command line can't load.`
`00:41.34`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah it's a common thing, so it's passed to each command`
`00:41.45`	`JeffM2501`	`you get the playerInfo for the player doing the / command`
`00:41.53`	`JeffM2501`	`don't know if that's what you wan to`
`00:41.54`	`TD-Linux`	`yay! JeffM2501 fixed the pluginload bug!`
`00:41.55`	`JeffM2501`	`tho`
`00:42.19`	`JeffM2501`	`BinarySpike, you want to do a search on callsign and get THAT persons player info right?`
`00:42.29`	`BinarySpike`	`Yes... just a sec... typeing`
`00:43.20`	`BinarySpike`	`So I convert the callsign to a index number then call playerData.getPlayerByIndex and then reference it?`
`00:43.56`	`JeffM2501`	`well get a pointer to it`
`00:43.57`	`JeffM2501`	`sure`
`00:44.38`	`BinarySpike`	`brb... phonecall`
`00:45.17`	`BinarySpike`	`back... let me get some code to show you...`
`00:45.31`	`JeffM2501`	`just look at the ghost command`
`00:45.34`	`JeffM2501`	`it does a player lookup`
`00:47.24`	`*** join/#bzflag ElectricElf (n=david@debian/developer/dbharris)`
`00:48.21`	`BinarySpike`	`here it is`
`00:48.22`	`BinarySpike`	`static void handleGiveCmd(GameKeeper::Player playerData, const char message)`
`00:48.22`	`BinarySpike`	`{`
`00:48.22`	`BinarySpike`	`int PlayerIndex;`
`00:48.22`	`BinarySpike`	`GameKeeper::Player *GivePlayer;`
`00:48.22`	`BinarySpike`	`FlagType GiveFlag;`
`00:48.23`	`BinarySpike`	`GivePlayer = playerData.GetPlayerByIndex(PlayerIndex);`
`00:48.26`	`BinarySpike`	`GivePlayer.player.FlagGive = GiveFlag;`
`00:48.27`	`BinarySpike`	`}`
`00:48.39`	`BinarySpike`	`oopsy`
`00:48.56`	`BinarySpike`	`between FlagType and GivePlayer = there are two comments`
`00:49.02`	`BinarySpike`	`<PROTECTED>`
`00:49.02`	`BinarySpike`	`<PROTECTED>`
`00:49.04`	`JeffM2501`	`that would set the data for the person who did the command`
`00:49.34`	`BinarySpike`	`Let me post it again... this time with comments in there.`
`00:49.39`	`JeffM2501`	`pastebin man`
`00:49.39`	`BinarySpike`	`static void handleGiveCmd(GameKeeper::Player playerData, const char message)`
`00:49.40`	`BinarySpike`	`{`
`00:49.40`	`BinarySpike`	`int PlayerIndex;`
`00:49.40`	`BinarySpike`	`GameKeeper::Player *GivePlayer;`
`00:49.40`	`BinarySpike`	`FlagType GiveFlag;`
`00:49.41`	`BinarySpike`	`<PROTECTED>`
`00:49.43`	`BinarySpike`	`<PROTECTED>`
`00:49.45`	`BinarySpike`	`GivePlayer = playerData.GetPlayerByIndex(PlayerIndex);`
`00:49.46`	`BinarySpike`	`GivePlayer.player.FlagGive = GiveFlag;`
`00:49.48`	`BinarySpike`	`}`
`00:49.50`	`BinarySpike`	`sry...`
`00:50.36`	`JeffM2501`	`other then that is missing code, that'll never compile, and wow you don't know much C... sure`
`00:50.57`	`JeffM2501`	`pointers aren't structs or classes`
`00:51.13`	`BinarySpike`	`Ah, so I do need the -> ?`
`00:51.24`	`JeffM2501`	`umm yes`
`00:51.32`	`JeffM2501`	`basic C`
`00:51.38`	`BinarySpike`	`Okie Dokie... I would have caught the error and changed it.`
`00:51.38`	`JeffM2501`	`you sure you don't want me to write this for ya?`
`00:51.44`	`BinarySpike`	`You can if you want.`
`00:52.37`	`BinarySpike`	`http://pastebin.com/337890`
`00:52.45`	`JeffM2501`	`not really interested in a mod that won't really work`
`00:52.53`	`BinarySpike`	`What do you mean?`
`00:53.06`	`JeffM2501`	`checking, 1 sec`
`00:53.17`	`JeffM2501`	`hmm it may work`
`00:53.24`	`JeffM2501`	`tho it could jack the flag db`
`00:54.52`	`JeffM2501`	`also opens up some big crashes`
`00:55.13`	`JeffM2501`	`could be done proper with some work and smart checks`
`00:55.27`	`BinarySpike`	`All your doing is overriding the flag that they should have gotten...`
`00:55.36`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah that is the problem`
`00:55.43`	`JeffM2501`	`that is what jackes the flag DB`
`00:55.54`	`JeffM2501`	`you do know the server has a full database of what flags are where`
`00:56.09`	`BinarySpike`	`Yes...`
`00:56.12`	`JeffM2501`	`a flag is more then a type`
`00:56.21`	`JeffM2501`	`so you'll be taking flags out of the system`
`00:56.24`	`JeffM2501`	`and changing there types`
`00:56.33`	`JeffM2501`	`and basicly puting new flags back into the system`
`00:56.43`	`BinarySpike`	`Why do you have to take it out?`
`00:56.49`	`JeffM2501`	`if you don't get it all updated right, or add flags that wern't initaly defined, it could be bad`
`00:57.05`	`JeffM2501`	`it's how theif works`
`00:57.09`	`JeffM2501`	`it uses the flag database`
`00:57.11`	`JeffM2501`	`if it gets off`
`00:57.22`	`JeffM2501`	`if the players think you have a difrent flag then the server does.....`
`00:57.36`	`JeffM2501`	`also on servers with ID, it could get realy wierd`
`00:57.43`	`BinarySpike`	`I understand that...`
`00:57.47`	`JeffM2501`	`since the clients know where every flag is too, and what tehre types are`
`00:58.01`	`JeffM2501`	`like I say, it's dooable, I think`
`00:58.12`	`JeffM2501`	`just not as simple as changing the ID when you send the message`
`00:58.24`	`JeffM2501`	`it will take a lot of case testing too`
`00:58.32`	`BinarySpike`	`This is a private mod... I don't even use the ID flag in my servers... and if it's defined we can just disable the /give command...`
`00:58.43`	`JeffM2501`	`I know`
`00:58.47`	`JeffM2501`	`I am just thinking general case`
`00:58.54`	`JeffM2501`	`why do it 1/2 ass`
`00:59.03`	`jomojo`	`okay all for some reason after updating the cvs both bases get sw by world weapon after ctf`
`00:59.13`	`jomojo`	`not really cool you know`
`00:59.22`	`JeffM2501`	`they do?`
`00:59.28`	`JeffM2501`	`by "both" do you mean "all"?`
`00:59.35`	`jomojo`	`right on overlord`
`00:59.43`	`JeffM2501`	`how is the SW defined?`
`00:59.55`	`JeffM2501`	`on the base? or on a world weap?`
`01:00.02`	`JeffM2501`	`we were fixing some bugs in it today`
`01:00.11`	`JeffM2501`	`so maybe new ones got added`
`01:00.15`	`jomojo`	`both bases get sw by world weapon after ctf`
`01:00.17`	`jomojo`	`yeah`
`01:00.25`	`JeffM2501`	`but in the map`
`01:00.30`	`JeffM2501`	`how is it defined?`
`01:00.33`	`jomojo`	`only on the bases so far`
`01:00.35`	`JeffM2501`	`as part of a world weap?`
`01:00.39`	`JeffM2501`	`or as part of the bases?`
`01:00.42`	`BinarySpike`	`brb...`
`01:00.48`	`*** part/#bzflag BinarySpike (n=BinarySp@206-113-020-023.plateautel.net)`
`01:00.55`	`jomojo`	`world weapon i believe`
`01:00.56`	`JeffM2501`	`good lord that boy is a pain`
`01:01.02`	`jomojo`	`crap I have to look`
`01:01.09`	`JeffM2501`	`can you look?`
`01:01.14`	`jomojo`	`looking`
`01:01.16`	`*** join/#bzflag BinarySpike (n=BinarySp@206-113-020-023.plateautel.net)`
`01:01.17`	`*** join/#bzflag Tupone (n=Tupone@pdpc/supporter/active/Tupone)`
`01:01.17`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone] by ChanServ`
`01:01.20`	`JeffM2501`	`would not make sense for a world weap to fire in more then one spot`
`01:01.27`	`JeffM2501`	`I'll bet it's on the base`
`01:03.03`	`BinarySpike`	`checking overlord map now`
`01:03.04`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03trepan * 10bzflag/src/bzfs/bzfsAPI.cxx: darkened divisions`
`01:03.34`	`BinarySpike`	`Neither base have an event in them`
`01:03.54`	`JeffM2501`	`BinarySpike, you are not the one wiht the problem, I'll get it from the person who has it, thanks`
`01:05.07`	`jomojo`	`JeffM2501:`
`01:05.11`	`jomojo`	`i can't find either`
`01:05.18`	`jomojo`	`i am looking in the map file the conf`
`01:05.20`	`JeffM2501`	`the base isn't in the map?`
`01:05.23`	`JeffM2501`	`map file`
`01:05.26`	`jomojo`	`and the conf`
`01:05.31`	`JeffM2501`	`conf dosn't do it`
`01:05.38`	`jomojo`	`where would the base be in ?`
`01:05.42`	`JeffM2501`	`the map`
`01:05.49`	`JeffM2501`	`under the object "base"`
`01:05.54`	`jomojo`	`right`
`01:05.57`	`jomojo`	`nothing there`
`01:06.02`	`JeffM2501`	`what is the code for the base?`
`01:06.02`	`jomojo`	`i can look again`
`01:06.12`	`jomojo`	`one second i will cut and paste`
`01:06.14`	`JeffM2501`	`if there is no event, what fires the world weap?`
`01:06.36`	`BinarySpike`	`When bzflag saves a map does it include everything (except comments) including world weapons?`
`01:06.40`	`jomojo`	`you got me.. silverfox has a lot of things spread out in places i wouldn't think to look`
`01:06.50`	`JeffM2501`	`all it can be is in the map`
`01:07.01`	`JeffM2501`	`mail me the map`
`01:07.22`	`JeffM2501`	`and are you sure you are using the exact same map file that the server with the problem is using?`
`01:07.34`	`jomojo`	`base`
`01:07.34`	`jomojo`	`position -135 -135 44`
`01:07.35`	`jomojo`	`rotation 0`
`01:07.35`	`jomojo`	`size 30 30 1`
`01:07.36`	`jomojo`	`color 2`
`01:07.38`	`jomojo`	`end`
`01:07.40`	`orange`	`jomojo is not exactly a unix person :-)`
`01:07.45`	`jomojo`	`no`
`01:07.48`	`jomojo`	`i am not`
`01:07.50`	`JeffM2501`	`that won't triger anything`
`01:08.04`	`jomojo`	`this is the map file being used by the server currently`
`01:08.05`	`JeffM2501`	`ar they using a moded server?`
`01:08.25`	`JeffM2501`	`or running any plugins?`
`01:08.48`	`jomojo`	`perhaps a plugin`
`01:08.57`	`BinarySpike`	`Well, nvm my /give command... l8tr guys`
`01:09.00`	`*** part/#bzflag BinarySpike (n=BinarySp@206-113-020-023.plateautel.net)`
`01:09.05`	`jomojo`	`silverfox was talking about that earlier`
`01:09.08`	`trepan`	`newer weapon parameters are not saved client-side`
`01:09.11`	`JeffM2501`	`where do people like him come from`
`01:09.16`	`JeffM2501`	`I mean damn`
`01:09.42`	`JeffM2501`	`jomojo, do a /listplugins when in game`
`01:09.46`	`JeffM2501`	`that will list any plugins loaded`
`01:10.06`	`*** join/#bzflag kksdf (n=SiriusB@35.Red-81-33-243.pooles.rima-tde.net)`
`01:10.12`	`JeffM2501`	`unless he's running older code then today`
`01:10.22`	`JeffM2501`	`there was a bug with oncap in the map`
`01:10.27`	`jomojo`	`it just switched from overlord to babel`
`01:10.41`	`jomojo`	`babel has no plugins`
`01:10.47`	`jomojo`	`they both use the same conf files`
`01:10.50`	`JeffM2501`	`plugins are not map based`
`01:10.53`	`JeffM2501`	`they are config`
`01:10.57`	`jomojo`	`but different map files`
`01:10.58`	`jomojo`	`ah`
`01:11.09`	`JeffM2501`	`well does overlord have any world weaps in the map?`
`01:11.29`	`jomojo`	`not that it says`
`01:11.33`	`JeffM2501`	`and does it have a "trigger" paramater?`
`01:11.40`	`JeffM2501`	`hmm then I can't see what would do that, at all`
`01:12.04`	`JeffM2501`	`there was a bug for like the past couple days that could make that happen if it had the stuff in the map`
`01:12.07`	`JeffM2501`	`it's been fixed now`
`01:12.09`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/src/bzflag/Downloads.h: missing the venerable common.h before a system header`
`01:12.23`	`jomojo`	`hmm wings is messed up as well`
`01:12.46`	`JeffM2501`	`define "messed up" ?`
`01:13.18`	`jomojo`	`jump is too short`
`01:13.26`	`JeffM2501`	`some of the defaults were changed`
`01:13.30`	`JeffM2501`	`to make it a little less wild`
`01:13.40`	`JeffM2501`	`server ops can still set them to whatever tho`
`01:14.01`	`jomojo`	`what was the old gravity o wings?`
`01:14.09`	`JeffM2501`	`dono`
`01:14.10`	`jomojo`	`the orignal defaults?`
`01:14.20`	`JeffM2501`	`grab 2.0.2 and list em`
`01:14.42`	`trepan`	`jomojo: remove the 0.5* from the wings vars`
`01:15.19`	`jomojo`	`from the gravity or velocity?`
`01:15.23`	`jomojo`	`trepan?`
`01:15.46`	`trepan`	`(but with an l)`
`01:15.57`	`jomojo`	`huh?`
`01:16.01`	`blast007`	`"vars"`
`01:16.14`	`jomojo`	`sorry guys not that bright when it comes to this stuff.`
`01:16.19`	`jomojo`	`thanks for your help though`
`01:16.33`	`jomojo`	`so how do i remove them?`
`01:16.45`	`blast007`	`just /set them`
`01:16.58`	`blast007`	`to a new value, without the 0.5*`
`01:17.12`	`jomojo`	`what should the new value be?`
`01:17.35`	`blast007`	`hmm...I would have pointed you to the bzflag wiki, but apparently it's broken`
`01:17.45`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03trepan * 10bzflag/src/common/global.cxx: revert _wings var changes`
`01:17.56`	`orange`	`I would argue leaving them more limited, since I don't like superwings`
`01:18.00`	`orange`	`but I know others do`
`01:18.18`	`TD-Linux`	`it dosen't matter, map/server can change them`
`01:18.32`	`blast007`	`but they don't :)`
`01:18.53`	`orange`	`I mean on silvercat, leaving them with the newer, more limited settings`
`01:18.58`	`TD-Linux`	`how do I get CIA-3 on #masterbot?`
`01:19.41`	`JeffM2501`	`you send an email to the CIA maintainer`
`01:19.47`	`TD-Linux`	`oh`
`01:21.02`	`uso_w`	`doesn't help a lot, server admins do increase them as they do with wingsjumpcount ;)`
`01:21.34`	`uso_w`	`wings would be a lot less of pain if admins would leave wingsjumpcount at 1`
`01:21.51`	`TD-Linux`	`especially at rabbit hunt servers with measly sw`
`01:21.57`	`TD-Linux`	`but then again, they could make sw bigger`
`01:22.03`	`TD-Linux`	`or make good gm`
`01:22.06`	`TD-Linux`	`or something`
`01:23.14`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03trepan * 10bzflag/src/common/global.cxx: revert _wingsSlideTime`
`01:23.36`	`TD-Linux`	`everything is changing`
`01:23.58`	`*** join/#bzflag iLL_Afk (n=neener@user-0can1fc.cable.mindspring.com)`
`01:24.03`	`iLLf8d`	`lo all`
`01:24.18`	`blast007`	`hi`
`01:24.55`	`iLLf8d`	`hrm looks like the mapmaking wiki is down atm`
`01:25.02`	`uso_w`	`but even developers seem not to agree on the default settings ;)`
`01:25.18`	`iLLf8d`	`wow looks like all new ppls in here`
`01:25.32`	`*** join/#bzflag Legoguy\|L (n=Legoguy@adsl-68-77-5-55.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net)`
`01:25.47`	`trepan`	`jomojo: "-set _wingsSlideTime 0.0" to make it was it was in 2.0.2`
`01:25.52`	`blast007`	`iLLf8d: the whole wiki is down :)`
`01:26.33`	`trepan`	`uso_w: those reversions were for changes that i'd previously made`
`01:26.39`	`iLLf8d`	`yeah I noticed`
`01:26.46`	`jomojo`	`trepan what does wingsslidetime do?`
`01:26.53`	`iLLf8d`	`I just played bz yesterday for the first time in years`
`01:26.58`	`trepan`	`jomojo: try it`
`01:27.00`	`iLLf8d`	`looks like htey changed the ogl stuffs`
`01:27.07`	`uso_w`	`trepan: have just seen it in the log, sorry`
`01:27.07`	`iLLf8d`	`glad to see it`
`01:28.20`	`uso_w`	`what's the background rendering? the mountains outside the map?`
`01:28.59`	`trepan`	`uso_w: context?`
`01:29.14`	`uso_w`	`"BZDB vars to disable background renderings"`
`01:29.42`	`orange`	`#bzflag - the knowledge base`
`01:29.46`	`uso_w`	`global.cxx, revision 2.8`
`01:30.06`	`trepan`	`uso_w: BZDB vars _drawXXXX`
`01:30.43`	`uso_w`	`ok, the diff makes it clear`
`01:31.06`	*** join/#bzflag brad2901` (i=brad@ACD83AAB.ipt.aol.com)
`01:35.01`	`jomojo`	`what was the orignal wingsJumpVelocity?`
`01:35.05`	`jomojo`	`anyone?`
`01:36.04`	`trepan`	`_gravity and _jumpVelocity where the originals`
`01:36.54`	`jomojo`	`the orignals were in green?`
`01:36.59`	`jomojo`	`new ones in blue trepan?`
`01:37.32`	`trepan`	`you're looking at the /set command listing?`
`01:37.33`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/src/bzflag/HUDuiTypeIn.h: more venerable common.hage`
`01:37.38`	`jomojo`	`yeah`
`01:37.43`	`jomojo`	`then i will fix in conf`
`01:37.44`	`uso_w`	`wings should be split into two flags`
`01:37.54`	`jomojo`	`oy`
`01:37.55`	`trepan`	`jomojo: how would your client/server setup possibly know the diff?`
`01:38.04`	`jomojo`	`right`
`01:38.22`	`trepan`	`unless you've got mismatched versions...`
`01:38.28`	`jomojo`	`who knows`
`01:38.47`	`trepan`	`anyways, that would have been the /diff command`
`01:38.50`	`uso_w`	`one flag with angel control while jumping but without additional z-control, i.e. without the possibility to set wingsjumpcount to anything above one`
`01:39.16`	`uso_w`	`and a flag with wingsjumpcount more than 1, but without angel control`
`01:39.25`	`jomojo`	`right now this is what I know`
`01:39.38`	`jomojo`	`silverfox updated the cvs`
`01:39.46`	`jomojo`	`and it was perhaps not a smart idea`
`01:39.57`	`jomojo`	`now both bases are getting sw with world weapon after capture`
`01:40.09`	`jomojo`	`and i can find no reference to the world weapon anywhere`
`01:40.12`	`uso_w`	`angle i mean ;)`
`01:40.16`	`jomojo`	`in the conf map or anything`
`01:40.33`	`jomojo`	`i might have /set the wings properly`
`01:40.37`	`jomojo`	`but who knows`
`01:40.58`	`*** join/#bzflag Pimpi (n=frank@p54819C77.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)`
`01:41.09`	`trepan`	`jomojo: can you post your map somewhere?`
`01:41.40`	`jomojo`	`yeah but that is pointless it is happening on both maps right now`
`01:42.08`	`jomojo`	`that use the same conf file`
`01:42.14`	`jomojo`	`it must be in cvs or conf file`
`01:46.16`	`jomojo`	`trepan current wings setting gravity -9.8, velocity 11, slide 0.0`
`01:46.26`	`jomojo`	`yet it still doesn't perform`
`01:46.37`	`jomojo`	`only goes about half as high`
`01:46.46`	`jomojo`	`can't even clear the average wall`
`01:47.23`	`uso_w`	`isn't the original velocity 19`
`01:48.49`	`jomojo`	`guess so`
`01:50.04`	`jomojo`	`okay that fixes that`
`01:51.21`	`trepan`	`jomojo: why not just use the values i gave you?`
`01:51.43`	`blast007`	`http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:PIl6PELAa6cJ:www.bzflag.org/wiki/ServerVariables+&hl=en`
`01:51.53`	`blast007`	`google cache to the rescue`
`01:52.19`	`blast007`	`default _wingsGravity is _gravity`
`01:52.20`	`uso_w`	`hehe`
`01:52.38`	`jomojo`	`any values except slidetime`
`01:52.41`	`jomojo`	`trepan`
`01:52.43`	`trepan`	`quote: "_gravity and _jumpVelocity where the originals"`
`01:52.56`	`jomojo`	`ah`
`01:53.02`	`jomojo`	`i didn't understand until now`
`01:53.07`	`jomojo`	`sorry`
`01:53.19`	`blast007`	`I musta missed that while reading the scrollback ;)`
`01:55.21`	`jomojo`	`trepan will i have to make these changes in the conf or map file to make permanent ?`
`01:55.38`	`blast007`	`either works`
`01:55.49`	`blast007`	`but a /reset * will force them back to the compiled defaults, iirc`
`01:56.04`	`trepan`	`or update to current CVS (whenever it becomes available to anon)`
`01:56.19`	`trepan`	`... the last global.cxx changes that is`
`01:58.54`	`uso_w`	`a lot of question marks in the description of the server variables`
`02:00.12`	`trepan`	`somebody should do something about that ;)`
`02:00.56`	`uso_w`	`like people introducing new settings ;))`
`02:01.19`	`blast007`	`uso_w: it doesn't make sense to update them right now, during the process of assigning new defaults`
`02:01.39`	`blast007`	`plus, those are _still_ the defaults for 2.0.2 and/or 2.0.0`
`02:02.13`	`uso_w`	`i do not mean the defalt values but the description of the variables`
`02:02.24`	`uso_w`	`+u`
`02:02.37`	`jomojo`	`to make sure there is one gm flag i would type the following`
`02:03.14`	`jomojo`	`"+f GM{1}`
`02:03.17`	`jomojo`	`?`
`02:03.27`	`blast007`	`for just 1, you don't need to specify how many`
`02:03.45`	`blast007`	`and if you have +f good{3} that will add 3 of every flag, including GM`
`02:03.46`	`jomojo`	`right but i want to make sure there is one and only one`
`02:04.09`	`jomojo`	`same for laser and sw`
`02:04.12`	`jomojo`	`and geno`
`02:04.17`	`blast007`	`right`
`02:04.26`	`jomojo`	`so that would be the right command?`
`02:04.37`	`blast007`	`so you could do -f GM{2} to take away two of those GM flags`
`02:05.06`	`blast007`	`yeah, +f GM{1} will add 1 GM to the existing flags`
`02:06.17`	`jomojo`	`okay so say I want 2 of every flag I would type +f good {2} +f bad{2} and then minus all subsequent flags like laser etc..`
`02:06.35`	`*** join/#bzflag Tupone (n=Tupone@host-84-222-136-224.cust-adsl.tiscali.it)`
`02:06.35`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone] by ChanServ`
`02:07.22`	`blast007`	`right`
`02:09.30`	`trepan`	`prolly won't work, -f is not what you think it is`
`02:09.55`	`blast007`	`hmm`
`02:10.31`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03atupone * 10bzflag/src/bzfs/ServerCommand.cxx: help is command name if not specified`
`02:11.32`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03atupone * 10bzflag/src/bzfs/commands.cxx: write a simple diagnostic if /xxx? does not match any command`
`02:11.55`	`blast007`	`oh, -f disallows that flag`
`02:11.57`	`uso_w`	`isn't it: -s number_of_other_flags -f GM +f GM -f L +f L ...`
`02:13.36`	`uso_w`	`or does a +f GM overrule +f good{2} ?`
`02:15.04`	`blast007`	`seems like it overrules it`
`02:16.36`	`uso_w`	`so -f is not needed`
`02:16.48`	`uso_w`	`and -s also`
`02:17.52`	`*** join/#bzflag rj-away_ (n=booto@rawmode.org)`
`02:19.21`	`jomojo`	`+f good{2}`
`02:19.22`	`jomojo`	`-f GM{1}`
`02:19.22`	`jomojo`	`-f L{1}`
`02:19.23`	`jomojo`	`-f SW{1}`
`02:19.23`	`jomojo`	`-f G{1}`
`02:19.34`	`jomojo`	`is what i typed and it won't work`
`02:19.43`	`uso_w`	`all with +f`
`02:19.53`	`jomojo`	`oh`
`02:20.29`	`blast007`	`jomojo: I found out -f doesn't work that way`
`02:20.33`	`uso_w`	`if blast007 is right with the overruling :)`
`02:20.37`	`jomojo`	`uso_w will that only leave me with 1 gm 1 sw etcc`
`02:20.39`	`jomojo`	`?`
`02:20.44`	`blast007`	`it turns the flag off completely`
`02:21.34`	`jomojo`	`okay server is up now`
`02:21.36`	`jomojo`	`but`
`02:21.43`	`blast007`	`-f also doesn't accept any number of flags`
`02:22.05`	`jomojo`	`but will that leave me with only 1 gm laser geno etc?`
`02:22.05`	`blast007`	`so a -f GM will take GM out of the map completely, even if you have +f GM{40}`
`02:22.09`	`trepan`	`+f is separate from -f, -f is associated with +s and -s`
`02:22.19`	`blast007`	`oh..`
`02:22.32`	`blast007`	`hmm...so maybe I _still_ don't know exactly what it does ;)`
`02:23.08`	`trepan`	`read the man page`
`02:23.23`	`blast007`	`I don't really need to know`
`02:23.30`	`blast007`	`I never use -s, +s, or -f`
`02:23.52`	`trepan`	`but if you're gonna try to help sort them out...`
`02:24.02`	`uso_w`	`all hard set with +f ... best way to know what happens :)`
`02:24.08`	`blast007`	`:)`
`02:25.26`	`blast007`	`-f "Disallows random flags of the given type"`
`02:26.35`	`jomojo`	`so -f GM would allow GM flags to be present, but not generate randomly ?`
`02:26.44`	`blast007`	`+s is the minimum amount of random flags available at all times, and -s is the maximum amount of random flags available at any time`
`02:26.52`	`blast007`	`right`
`02:27.13`	`blast007`	`+s and -s control the number of random flags`
`02:27.52`	`jomojo`	`wait i thought -f just didn't allow that flag to be present`
`02:28.01`	`jomojo`	`because I have -f on all flags that i don't want`
`02:28.07`	`jomojo`	`like id and it keeps them out`
`02:28.08`	`uso_w`	`that was my first proposal above, GM, L, ... fixed to one and the others random`
`02:28.10`	`blast007`	`apparently you can add them manually with +f`
`02:29.37`	`jomojo`	`okay here is want I want 1 gm, laser, sw, geno, that do not generate randomly`
`02:29.59`	`jomojo`	`so one may track those flags after a drop`
`02:30.10`	`blast007`	`so set up -s and +s how you want them, then do -f on those flags, and a +f on those flags`
`02:30.14`	`jomojo`	`but only one ata tim`
`02:30.23`	`uso_w`	`-s number_of_other_flags -f GM -f L ... +f GM +f L`
`02:30.37`	`jomojo`	`are you sure about -f?`
`02:30.56`	`jomojo`	`because that is what i used to deactivate flags like id jump rico etc`
`02:31.49`	`blast007`	`well, the man page says it's just for random flags`
`02:32.17`	`uso_w`	`this was how i set it up for 1.10, seems not to have changed`
`02:37.22`	`jomojo`	`okay now i have 3 gms 3 laser etc..`
`02:37.23`	`jomojo`	`damn`
`02:37.47`	`jomojo`	`what is -s and +s used for again?`
`02:38.11`	`uso_w`	`with the +f good +f GM or with the -s / -f combination?`
`02:38.45`	`blast007`	`jomojo: http://my.bzflag.org/bzfman.cgi?bzfs.6s`
`02:38.55`	`jomojo`	`+f good{2}`
`02:38.55`	`jomojo`	`+f GM{1}`
`02:38.56`	`jomojo`	`+f L{1}`
`02:38.56`	`jomojo`	`+f SW{1}`
`02:38.56`	`jomojo`	`+f G{1}`
`02:38.59`	`jomojo`	`is what i have`
`02:39.28`	`uso_w`	`so it's not overruling but additional`
`02:39.56`	`blast007`	`well, you're doing +f good{2}`
`02:40.05`	`blast007`	`so that's why there are 3 GM flags...`
`02:40.22`	`jomojo`	`right well i want 2 of each good flag, except superflags`
`02:40.32`	`blast007`	`if you want two of every flag, you'll have to do +f __{2} for every flag`
`02:40.34`	`jomojo`	`like laser g sw etc`
`02:40.51`	`jomojo`	`gotcha`
`02:40.53`	`uso_w`	`either use -s and have all other flags randomly or write exactly +f for each flag you want ;)`
`02:40.54`	`blast007`	`superflags are all the flags, except team flags`
`02:41.02`	`blast007`	`they aren't just GM, L, etc`
`02:41.28`	`orange`	`I think the man page is confusing`
`02:41.59`	`orange`	`Similarly, "+f good{40} +f bad{10}`
`02:41.59`	`orange`	`<PROTECTED>`
`02:41.59`	`orange`	`<PROTECTED>`
`02:42.01`	`uso_w`	`not much, but it is not telling all the truth :)`
`02:42.04`	`orange`	`that just doesn't make sense`
`02:42.23`	`blast007`	`+f good{40} would make it impossible to connect to the server`
`02:42.31`	`uso_w`	`lol`
`02:42.53`	`orange`	`that's not exactly 40 good flags, that's exactly 40 of EACH good flag, right?`
`02:42.55`	`blast007`	`that would be 40 of _each_ flag`
`02:43.00`	`blast007`	`not just 40 flags`
`02:43.12`	`blast007`	`right`
`02:43.28`	`orange`	`and the -f G{40} syntax is not allowed, if what I'm hearing is right`
`02:43.35`	`blast007`	`right`
`02:43.49`	`blast007`	`"-f G" works though, but only affects random flags`
`02:44.15`	`orange`	`no way to disallow specific flags that were added with +f good`
`02:44.35`	`blast007`	`just don't use +f good :)`
`02:44.50`	`blast007`	`manually set each flag`
`02:44.55`	`blast007`	`full control then`
`02:45.19`	`orange`	`yeah`
`02:45.52`	`jomojo`	`#+f good{2}`
`02:45.53`	`jomojo`	`+f GM{1}`
`02:45.53`	`jomojo`	`+f L{1}`
`02:45.54`	`jomojo`	`+f SW{1}`
`02:45.54`	`jomojo`	`+f G{1}`
`02:46.16`	`orange`	`+f L{1} +f GM{1} +f SW{1} +f G{1} +f F{2} +f OO{2} .... etc....`
`02:46.38`	`jomojo`	`if i did this removing the good{2} then would it limit only the gm flags or would it only allow those flags?`
`02:46.54`	`blast007`	`there would only BE those 4 flags`
`02:46.58`	`orange`	`it would only put the explicitly stated flags`
`02:46.59`	`blast007`	`and one each`
`02:47.09`	`jomojo`	`oy`
`02:47.12`	`jomojo`	`thanks`
`02:47.17`	`blast007`	`:)`
`02:48.15`	`uso_w`	`i would like to have also an option to say e.g. 30 random flags but not more than 1 GM at a time`
`02:48.18`	`jomojo`	`so to limit just those 4 flags i would have too type how many of each flags i wanted`
`02:48.49`	`jomojo`	`and -f by the way removes the flags entirely from the map`
`02:48.52`	`uso_w`	`or you make the rest of the flags random as i wrote above`
`02:49.10`	`blast007`	`-f removes the random flags of that type generates with -s and +s`
`02:49.15`	`trepan`	`any objections to changing DUMP, SILENCE, etc... to more conformant /dumpvars, /silence, etc...`
`02:49.16`	`blast007`	`generated*`
`02:49.29`	`uso_w`	`not entirely, if you have +f they are there`
`02:50.52`	`orange`	`what if you did this:`
`02:50.53`	`orange`	`+s 40 -s 50 -f G -f GM -f SW -f L +f L{1} +f GM{1} +f SW{1} +f G{1}`
`02:51.14`	`orange`	`(I STILL don't understand what -s and +s do, after reading the man pages, but this was the example in there, for 40-50 random flags)`
`02:51.25`	`orange`	`that'd be 40-50 random flags of all types, but no random G, GM, SW, and L flags`
`02:51.32`	`uso_w`	`that was my proposal already two times :)`
`02:51.33`	`orange`	`but always put one G one GM one SW and one L flag`
`02:51.56`	`uso_w`	`yes`
`02:52.20`	`orange`	`what's the difference between +s and -s?`
`02:52.51`	`uso_w`	`as far as i understand +s means the flag respawns immediatly to always have the given number`
`02:53.06`	`uso_w`	`-s means it can respawn delayed`
`02:53.40`	`orange`	`so you really only need one`
`02:53.58`	`uso_w`	`but this is somewhat mystical :)`
`02:54.31`	`uso_w`	`no, theoretical -s 50 can mean you have a time with no flags on the map`
`02:55.03`	`blast007`	`+s forces 50 flags to be on the field at all times`
`02:55.08`	`blast007`	`+s 50*`
`02:55.21`	`*** join/#bzflag a_monkey (n=elmunky@user-0can33s.cable.mindspring.com)`
`02:55.25`	`blast007`	`-s 60 says that at times, we can have up to 60 flags`
`02:55.29`	`uso_w`	`i don't know how long the respawn time of a flag can be`
`02:55.37`	`orange`	`ah, so with +s 40 you force 40 minimum`
`02:55.43`	`uso_w`	`yup`
`02:55.46`	`orange`	`add -s 50 to that and you might have up to ten more`
`02:56.20`	`uso_w`	`would be worth a try :)`
`02:56.42`	`uso_w`	`server should reject it`
`02:57.14`	`orange`	`looking at the source, it seems one overrides the other`
`02:57.39`	`orange`	`src/bzfs/CmdLineOptions.cxx`
`02:58.13`	`orange`	`only the latter one is used, it appears to me`
`02:58.16`	`blast007`	`ah`
`02:58.21`	`orange`	`I'm no code wiz, but isn't that what it says?`
`02:58.29`	`blast007`	`appears that way`
`02:58.37`	`blast007`	`mainly looking at the allFlagsOut thing`
`02:58.39`	`orange`	`yeah`
`02:59.15`	`orange`	`and options.numExtraFlags is set each time -s or +s appears`
`02:59.47`	`orange`	`overriding whatever was put in it last`
`03:00.20`	`uso_w`	`last one wins`
`03:01.11`	`uso_w`	`but that would mean man page is wrong with the -s / +s example :(`
`03:01.48`	`orange`	`yeah`
`03:02.16`	`orange`	`and the -f G{40} example`
`03:02.31`	`orange`	`and the +f good{40} isn't really wrong, but would probably be a very bad idea`
`03:02.44`	`blast007`	`right ;)`
`03:03.01`	`blast007`	`the client would freak during the flag negotiation`
`03:03.43`	`blast007`	`or at least it used to`
`03:04.00`	`blast007`	`I recall someone doing +f good{100} back in 1.7 or so`
`03:04.08`	`orange`	`ouch`
`03:04.53`	`uso_w`	`what's the problem? network? good{40} means roughly 1000 flags, not that much`
`03:04.59`	`jomojo`	`so which is it - or+ s that would force a flag to respawn immediately?`
`03:05.16`	`orange`	`+s`
`03:05.36`	`orange`	`would force some random flag to fill up that spot immediately`
`03:05.49`	`uso_w`	`but i would prefer -s to avoid ppl picking up always the same flag`
`03:06.03`	`jomojo`	`what`
`03:06.23`	`jomojo`	`okay i want people to be able to pick up same flag time after time if they can track it`
`03:06.26`	`jomojo`	`it is a skill`
`03:06.29`	`jomojo`	`and part of the game`
`03:06.43`	`jomojo`	`so for that i would typ +s GM ?`
`03:07.02`	`blast007`	`hehe, here's +f good{100} from long ago: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/download.php?group_id=3248&atid=103248&file_id=66267&aid=834847`
`03:07.07`	`uso_w`	`but very annoying if you have only a few players on a server`
`03:07.21`	`jomojo`	`but that command would work?`
`03:07.32`	`jomojo`	`well silvercat rarely has thate few of players on it`
`03:07.46`	`orange`	`no, +s GM would not work`
`03:08.03`	`jomojo`	`ah`
`03:08.07`	`jomojo`	`so what would?`
`03:08.13`	`orange`	`pm`
`03:08.21`	`uso_w`	`nice radar :)`
`03:08.26`	`blast007`	`:)`
`03:10.45`	`uso_w`	`as we are on flags: could a laser hit a player with CL flag?`
`03:11.22`	`blast007`	`nope`
`03:11.48`	`uso_w`	`i thought so but i get hit yesterday at silvercat`
`03:12.05`	`blast007`	`hmm...`
`03:12.12`	`uso_w`	`but maybe it was a stray bullet, not 100% sure`
`03:12.39`	`blast007`	`many times a person with L will drop it, cuz they know they can't kill you`
`03:13.01`	`blast007`	`I usually wait until the CL jumps at me ;)`
`03:13.13`	`uso_w`	`i have seen that also, drop laser, kill me and pick it up again`
`03:14.16`	`uso_w`	`but that's another issue that you can drop a superflag and pick it up at the same place again`
`03:14.53`	`blast007`	`that's not really an issue...it's how it is suppsed to work`
`03:15.17`	`uso_w`	`shouldn't the flag respaw at an other place?`
`03:15.22`	`uso_w`	`+n`
`03:15.30`	`blast007`	`not always`
`03:15.40`	`blast007`	`it's fairly complex now`
`03:15.45`	`uso_w`	`:)`
`03:16.04`	`blast007`	`if it had a shot limit, if the flag was randomly generated, etc`
`03:16.36`	`trepan`	`<PROTECTED>`
`03:17.06`	`uso_w`	`so if i have a shot limit at a flag i can drop it before the last shot and pick it up again??`
`03:17.17`	`jomojo`	`how do i limit the number of shots on a map`
`03:17.21`	`*** join/#bzflag creeperz (i=Meatwad@host-57-142-230-24.midco.net)`
`03:17.26`	`blast007`	`with -sl`
`03:17.34`	`blast007`	`it's in the man page`
`03:17.37`	`jomojo`	`thanks`
`03:18.27`	`uso_w`	`trepan: so with default settings i can drop and grab a flag 4 times?`
`03:18.41`	`uso_w`	`that's hard`
`03:18.46`	`trepan`	`a maximum of 4 times`
`03:19.44`	`uso_w`	`not completely clear`
`03:20.12`	`uso_w`	`so does it have a probability of 50% to respawn at the same place the first 4 times?`
`03:20.38`	`uso_w`	`and after that respawns with 100% at another place?`
`03:21.55`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03trepan * 10bzflag/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs):`
`03:21.56`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: - converter client commands DUMP, SILENCE, UNSILENCE, and SAVEWORLD`
`03:21.56`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: to /dumpvars, /silence, /unsilence, and /saveworld`
`03:21.56`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: (CLIENTQUERY should probably just be removed)`
`03:21.56`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: - added -g and -m options to /saveworld`
`03:22.16`	`blast007`	`think that the flag can be grabbed 4 times, and then it respawns somewhere else`
`03:22.31`	`blast007`	`so 4 people could grab it, and it goes somewhere else`
`03:23.15`	`uso_w`	`or the same player gets it (max) 4 times`
`03:23.37`	`uso_w`	`no wonder of such mass geno kills in a row`
`03:23.57`	`blast007`	`grabs = int(floor(maxGrabs * (float)bzfrand())) + 1;`
`03:24.13`	`blast007`	`floor() rounds down`
`03:24.32`	`blast007`	`and maxGrabs is the _maxFlagGrabs`
`03:25.42`	`trepan`	`uso_w: if (limited && drpFlag.numShots > 0) drpFlag.grabs = 0;`
`03:25.54`	`uso_w`	`bzfrand is 0...1?`
`03:26.11`	`uso_w`	`ah, so only unlimited flags can picked up again`
`03:26.40`	`uso_w`	`oops, no`
`03:27.13`	`uso_w`	`can not be dropped and picked up with shots left`
`03:28.04`	`uso_w`	`blast007: so you always can drop and grab a flag once (with default settings)`
`03:28.21`	`uso_w`	`as grabs is between 1 and _maxFlagGrabs+1`
`03:28.45`	`uso_w`	`nice to know`
`03:30.41`	`uso_w`	`will this grabs be recalculated every time a flag is grabbed (or dropped)?`
`03:31.07`	`*** join/#bzflag RPG_ (n=G-bus@c-24-15-87-171.hsd1.il.comcast.net)`
`03:31.19`	`RPG_`	`what happened to bzfs.h?`
`03:31.25`	`RPG_`	`all my #defs are different`
`03:32.04`	`jomojo`	`blast007: it was actuall -ms for shot limit`
`03:32.33`	`blast007`	`jomojo: oh, thought you were meaning shot limit per flag, as we were discussing that at the time`
`03:33.13`	`RPG_`	`NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO`
`03:33.28`	`RPG_`	`team #define's are no longer there!!!!!!!!`
`03:33.30`	`RPG_`	`~kill RPG_`
`03:33.30`	`ibot`	`ACTION shoots a charged pseudomeson gun at RPG_`
`03:33.45`	`*** part/#bzflag RPG_ (n=G-bus@c-24-15-87-171.hsd1.il.comcast.net)`
`03:33.56`	`blast007`	`um...o..k...`
`03:34.33`	`uso_w`	`the first victim of Jeffs cleanup :)`
`03:37.20`	`blast007`	`:)`
`03:37.55`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03trepan * 10bzflag/src/bzflag/CommandsImplementation.cxx: typo`
`03:40.48`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03trepan * 10bzflag/src/common/AutoCompleter.cxx: add some trailing spaces`
`03:57.45`	`*** join/#bzflag sgk284 (n=stevek@AC84B9A2.ipt.aol.com)`
`04:00.51`	`uso_w`	`respawn of limited flags has been changed in 2.0 by DTRemenak`
`04:01.37`	`uso_w`	`but doesn't if (limited && drpFlag.numShots > 0) drpFlag.grabs = 0; mean flag could reappear if it has been fired?`
`04:02.00`	`uso_w`	`not as the comment suggests disposes if it has been fired?`
`04:03.39`	`trepan`	`uso_w: also look at this line: } else if (--drpFlag.grabs <= 0) {`
`04:04.21`	`trepan`	`and this one: fInfo.grabs = 0; // recycle this flag now`
`04:04.26`	`uso_w`	`yes, i saw it`
`04:04.47`	`uso_w`	`but grabs will not set to 0 if ther are no shots left`
`04:05.15`	`uso_w`	`so if you have fired all shots of a limited flag it can respawn at the same place`
`04:05.32`	`blast007`	`I don't think so`
`04:05.45`	`uso_w`	`comment suggests the opposite`
`04:05.52`	`uso_w`	`or where am i wrong?`
`04:06.50`	`*** join/#bzflag triclops (n=triclops@c220-239-40-105.rivrw7.nsw.optusnet.com.au)`
`04:16.17`	`*** join/#bzflag BIYA (n=chatzill@dialup-4.129.86.50.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)`
`04:33.25`	`uso_w`	`i caught it, numShots is the number of already fired shots, not the number of shots left`
`04:35.28`	`uso_w`	`so if you have fired a shot and drop flag it disappears`
`04:35.36`	`silverfx`	`CVS has some new wings settings (jump hieght?), which get some gripes from a couple players.`
`04:35.50`	`silverfx`	`Is this intended? Is it permanent?`
`04:35.56`	`uso_w`	`already revoked`
`04:37.38`	`blast007`	`and it's not like you can't _change_ the settings...`
`04:40.09`	`silverfx`	`what's revoked? The WG settings?`
`04:40.23`	`silverfx`	`blast007, I don't really care. Just wanted to know what to plan on.`
`04:41.08`	`blast007`	`I belive the change has been reverted`
`04:41.24`	`silverfx`	`I see.`
`04:45.04`	`silverfx`	`Has someone already worked on the eventteam problem?`
`04:45.40`	`blast007`	`not sure, but I think it's on Jeff's list of stuff to do ;)`
`04:45.52`	`silverfx`	`he said it was earlier today. I was thinking of looking for it.`
`04:46.02`	`silverfx`	`err... looking at it.`
`04:49.09`	`uso_w`	`blast007: is there anywhere an info or a discussion which defaults are subject to change?`
`04:50.05`	`blast007`	`we discussed wings settings in detail here`
`04:51.01`	`uso_w`	`any hint which date to look?`
`04:52.32`	`blast007`	`Aug 3rd`
`04:53.51`	`uso_w`	`thanks & bye`
`04:53.54`	`*** join/#bzflag sgk284 (n=stevek@AC84B9A2.ipt.aol.com)`
`04:54.52`	`*** join/#bzflag JeffM2501 (n=jeffm@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501)`
`04:54.52`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ`
`04:54.58`	`silverfx`	`all JeffM2501.`
`04:55.04`	`silverfx`	`s/all/allo/`
`04:55.21`	`JeffM2501`	`heh`
`04:56.25`	`sgk284`	`hey JeffM2501`
`04:56.43`	`JeffM2501`	`sup`
`04:57.11`	`sgk284`	`hows the good life treating ya?`
`04:57.18`	`JeffM2501`	`mehh`
`05:01.41`	`brlcad`	`it's all about the jeff`
`05:03.13`	`JeffM2501`	`mehh`
`05:12.08`	`brlcad`	`hehh`
`05:12.26`	`JeffM2501`	`does anyone know binary spike?`
`05:12.49`	`brlcad`	`just from here`
`05:12.59`	`JeffM2501`	`I do not trust him`
`05:13.06`	`JeffM2501`	`and he's offering a build of 2.0.2`
`05:13.08`	`JeffM2501`	`for the mac`
`05:13.10`	`JeffM2501`	`that makes no sense`
`05:13.17`	`brlcad`	`oh yeah, him`
`05:13.31`	`JeffM2501`	`did the sf 2.0.2 run on 10.2 OSX?`
`05:14.15`	`brlcad`	`i don't recall now`
`05:14.27`	`JeffM2501`	`I thought it did`
`05:14.34`	`JeffM2501`	`since I recall using the G2 to test it for you`
`05:14.37`	`JeffM2501`	`G3 even`
`05:14.55`	`brlcad`	`I thought it did too`
`05:15.34`	`brlcad`	`but then there are different versions of 10.2 with different dev kits`
`05:15.41`	`JeffM2501`	`posibly`
`05:16.03`	`JeffM2501`	`if it's a real valid variant, I'll host it on betas, but if not, I am very leery`
`05:17.06`	`*** join/#bzflag bm (n=bm@203-59-210-177.dyn.iinet.net.au)`
`05:17.22`	`brlcad`	`not sure i'd trust his sources`
`05:17.29`	`JeffM2501`	`nor I`
`05:17.44`	`brlcad`	`he was writing to me about making mods too`
`05:18.19`	`JeffM2501`	`gotta love somone who has "known C++ for years, and made many mac games" but dosn't know what a pointer is or how it's used`
`05:20.31`	`JeffM2501`	`maybe he means well, but it'll take time to build that level of trust`
`05:20.50`	`JeffM2501`	`he was mad at me that I implemented some of his ideas in the mainline`
`05:21.08`	`brlcad`	`heck, I've known C++ for years before I knew how to code :)`
`05:21.55`	`JeffM2501`	`heh`
`05:22.42`	`JeffM2501`	`techincaly his oncap thing was the thing that got me on the plugin line of thinking`
`05:23.29`	`JeffM2501`	`maybe I'm just a horible horible idea thief`
`05:23.37`	`JeffM2501`	`remember how rain got put in?`
`05:25.10`	`silverfx`	`JeffM2501, I see where eventTeam gets assigned a value in CustomWeapon.cxx, but I don't see where eventTeam ever gets referenced. Where is it supposed to be evaluated?`
`05:25.14`	`brlcad`	`hehe`
`05:25.26`	`brlcad`	`yeah, the day of/before release :)`
`05:25.41`	`brlcad`	`"just one more thing" :)`
`05:25.46`	`JeffM2501`	`silverfx, writeToWorld`
`05:25.58`	`JeffM2501`	`it's in the constructor for the event handler`
`05:26.07`	`JeffM2501`	`last parmater`
`05:27.06`	`JeffM2501`	`brlcad, well I have to do what I can, to make the release dates slip, so I can prove current management is not incapable of releasing on time :)`
`05:27.27`	`brlcad`	`hehe`
`05:30.57`	`JeffM2501`	`ok idea runby time, how's this sound, a plugin can register a /help hanndler where somoe can type /help plugin_name then the plugin can dump it's info?`
`05:36.20`	`*** join/#bzflag TimRiker (n=timr@dmzgw.rikers.org)`
`05:36.29`	`learner`	`sounds great`
`05:36.36`	`*** join/#bzflag BZFlag (n=timr@dmzgw.rikers.org)`
`05:36.55`	`JeffM2501`	`or a new thing like /plugininfo ?`
`05:37.06`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ`
`05:37.29`	`learner`	`what kind of help would it dump?`
`05:37.37`	`JeffM2501`	`tho it could be usefull for other thigns to have a plugin install more then one thing`
`05:37.38`	`learner`	`maybe /describe hooks`
`05:37.55`	`silverfx`	`how about /pluginname help`
`05:37.58`	`JeffM2501`	`well at a basic level, a description of what it does`
`05:37.59`	`learner`	`and then allow it to register whatever client commands it pleases`
`05:38.05`	`silverfx`	`and /pluginname could be used for other things too.`
`05:38.17`	`JeffM2501`	`silverfx, some plugins install /commands with there own names, and that would confilct`
`05:38.36`	`learner`	`that's easy to break/fix :)`
`05:38.39`	`JeffM2501`	`I'd like to have one command, that took the plugin as a param, less conflits`
`05:38.43`	`silverfx`	`what keeps the commands that plugin A installs from conflicting with those plugin B installs?`
`05:38.51`	`JeffM2501`	`silverfx, the last one wins`
`05:38.55`	`JeffM2501`	`there can only be one`
`05:39.02`	`JeffM2501`	`or maybe it was the first`
`05:39.05`	`JeffM2501`	`somone gets an error`
`05:39.08`	`JeffM2501`	`I forget who`
`05:39.22`	`silverfx`	`Use the same logic.`
`05:39.44`	`silverfx`	`Also, maybe it'd be appropriate to have all of plugin A's commands under /plugina command ?`
`05:39.51`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah last one wins`
`05:40.13`	`learner`	`yeah, sort of a pseudo command namespace`
`05:40.14`	`JeffM2501`	`then you make all plugins install a / command`
`05:40.17`	`JeffM2501`	`kinda lame`
`05:40.22`	`JeffM2501`	`I'd rather them jsut provide a string`
`05:40.35`	`JeffM2501`	`makes it easyer`
`05:40.49`	`JeffM2501`	`the easyer it is for the plugin dev the more willing they are to provide help`
`05:41.18`	`silverfx`	`how about /plugins list\|describe\|help\|etc`
`05:41.25`	`JeffM2501`	`we have /listplugins`
`05:41.46`	`silverfx`	`just thinking fewer=simpler=better.`
`05:41.47`	`JeffM2501`	`so like /plugins help airspawn?`
`05:41.53`	`silverfx`	`sure.`
`05:42.01`	`JeffM2501`	`well what is wrong wiht /help airspawn :)`
`05:42.07`	`silverfx`	`and /plugins list would list plugins.`
`05:42.20`	`silverfx`	`JeffM2501, what happens if my conf specifies a helpfile named airspawn?`
`05:42.39`	`silverfx`	`nothing is "wrong" with it. Just suggesting another viewpoint.`
`05:42.42`	`JeffM2501`	`silverfx, then you are dumb for addin in -loadplugin airspawn`
`05:42.46`	`JeffM2501`	`:)`
`05:42.51`	`silverfx`	`heh`
`05:42.56`	`JeffM2501`	`what prevents you from doing -help airspawn twice?`
`05:42.58`	`silverfx`	`JeffM2501, you're so tactful.`
`05:43.20`	`JeffM2501`	`I don't mind making it /plugin`
`05:43.37`	`JeffM2501`	`and put load, unload, list and help in it`
`05:43.42`	`silverfx`	`again, just offering another way of looking at it. If you've think another is better, then great.`
`05:44.00`	`JeffM2501`	`many plugins do register more then one command tho`
`05:44.04`	`silverfx`	`;)`
`05:44.18`	`JeffM2501`	`dosn't mater have to do perms first`
`05:44.23`	`JeffM2501`	`enum of DOOOM`
`05:45.14`	`silverfx`	`JeffM2501, is the event handler you were talking about CustomWeapon::writeToWorld(WorldInfo* world) at the end of CustomWeapon.cxx ?`
`05:45.24`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`05:45.32`	`JeffM2501`	`that's where it installs the event handler`
`05:45.37`	`JeffM2501`	`and passes the team to it`
`05:45.43`	`JeffM2501`	`so it knows what team to use when it's fired`
`05:45.48`	`JeffM2501`	`well when the cap happens`
`05:46.21`	`silverfx`	`don't see eventTeam in there anywhere.`
`05:46.27`	`trepan`	`learner: you still want CLIENTQUERY? (left it there for you)`
`05:46.33`	`JeffM2501`	`look at the end`
`05:46.37`	`JeffM2501`	`and how old is your code?`
`05:46.40`	`trepan`	`but i'd rather see it disappear`
`05:46.52`	`silverfx`	`Its about 6 hours old.`
`05:47.24`	`JeffM2501`	`I just fixed it toda`
`05:47.30`	`JeffM2501`	`you may not have it`
`05:47.30`	`silverfx`	`oh... well, that explains it.`
`05:48.37`	`silverfx`	`yep, there it is (just updated)`
`05:48.56`	`*** join/#bzflag silverfox (i=vircuser@68-116-47-254.static.mdfd.or.charter.com)`
`05:48.59`	`JeffM2501`	`57 perms, dman`
`05:49.14`	`silverfox`	`cool. So its fixed then. Thanks much for that.`
`05:49.58`	`JeffM2501`	`I dono, I didn't test it`
`05:50.02`	`JeffM2501`	`it has code to filter now tho`
`05:51.07`	`silverfox`	`code to filter`
`05:51.11`	`silverfox`	`?`
`05:51.28`	`JeffM2501`	`code to filter the events based on team`
`05:51.41`	`JeffM2501`	`I had changed how the events worked, but never added filter code to the event handlers`
`05:51.59`	`silverfox`	`ah.`
`05:59.27`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+v Nidhoggr] by ChanServ`
`05:59.39`	`Nidhoggr`	`silly servers`
`06:00.51`	`learner`	`woah`
`06:00.54`	`learner`	`howdy Nidhoggr :)`
`06:00.59`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/src/bzflag/Region.cxx: class interface headers come before system implementation headers`
`06:01.49`	`silverfox`	`JeffM2501, my patch may have broken something.`
`06:02.32`	`silverfox`	`looking at updated code, search for <<<<<<<`
`06:02.54`	`JeffM2501`	`?`
`06:03.02`	`JeffM2501`	`I didn't actualy apply your patch`
`06:03.07`	`JeffM2501`	`I just made the same changes`
`06:03.08`	`silverfox`	`in src/bzfs/bzfs.cxx`
`06:03.12`	`silverfox`	`ah`
`06:03.18`	`orchid`	`hi Nidhoggr welcome to #bzflag`
`06:03.37`	`silverfox`	`search for <<<<<<< in src/bzfs/bzfs.cxx`
`06:03.43`	`silverfox`	`that can't be right.`
`06:04.01`	`JeffM2501`	`silverfox, that is from YOUR merge`
`06:04.06`	`silverfox`	`ah.`
`06:04.07`	`JeffM2501`	`not what I checked in`
`06:04.14`	`JeffM2501`	`it means you had a conflict in that file :)`
`06:04.34`	`silverfox`	`because I changed it, then did a CVS update, it merged it funny?`
`06:04.38`	`JeffM2501`	`probalby because you updated with your own changes in line`
`06:04.41`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`06:04.46`	`JeffM2501`	`it could not auto merge`
`06:04.51`	`silverfox`	`oops. (never done this before)`
`06:04.53`	`JeffM2501`	`because we changed the same parts of code :)`
`06:05.01`	`JeffM2501`	`or so it thinks`
`06:05.02`	`silverfox`	`so, just delete the file and then do another update?`
`06:05.10`	`JeffM2501`	`thats the simplest way`
`06:05.14`	`JeffM2501`	`or rename it somethign else`
`06:05.53`	`silverfox`	`nah, its hosed.`
`06:06.06`	`silverfox`	`no wonder my compile failed. ;)`
`06:27.56`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/include/BundleMgr.h: common.h comes before any system headers`
`06:30.49`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/include/Country.h: common.h comes before any system headers`
`06:31.28`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/include/Language.h: common.h comes before any system headers`
`06:31.43`	`*** join/#bzflag noyb (n=noyb@pool-71-108-85-69.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)`
`06:32.18`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 * 10bzflag/ (5 files in 3 dirs):`
`06:32.19`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: custom group permisions`
`06:32.19`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: api exposure of permisions`
`06:32.19`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: doc update to include permision functions`
`06:32.19`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: API version bump`
`06:34.21`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/include/VotingBooth.h: common.h comes before any system headers .. I know this one used to have a common.h.. who moved my cheese?`
`06:34.24`	`trepan`	`brlcad: if you're on a serious kick cgrep '#include $<$\\|$"common.h"$'`
`06:34.38`	`JeffM2501`	`that should make them suck a little less`
`06:34.58`	`trepan`	`oops, forgot, cgrep is my own thing`
`06:35.22`	`trepan`	`recursively greps through source files (.c, .cxx, .cpp, .h, etc...)`
`06:37.17`	`learner`	`these are files missing common.h`
`06:37.19`	`learner`	`mostly`
`06:37.39`	`trepan`	`or system before common.h ... there's lots of them`
`06:37.45`	`learner`	`only found it while testing a feature that required a define from there to override`
`06:38.01`	`learner`	`not too many left`
`06:40.20`	`learner`	`yep`
`06:40.29`	`learner`	`tackling the serious issues`
`06:46.09`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03trepan * 10bzflag/include/bzfsAPI.h: did it even compile?`
`06:49.45`	`JeffM2501`	`it did`
`06:51.17`	`JeffM2501`	`guess I have an implied return state`
`06:51.19`	`JeffM2501`	`wierd`
`06:51.19`	`trepan`	`did it work?`
`06:51.29`	`JeffM2501`	`ohh hell if I know on the class stuff`
`06:51.38`	`JeffM2501`	`that part was an afterthought :)`
`06:56.23`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/include/ (8 files): common.h needs to be included before any system headers, follow the header inclusion conventions consistently`
`06:59.04`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/src/common/ (CommandManager.cxx md5.cxx messages.cxx): more header cleanup, follow inclusion conventions consistently`
`07:00.34`	`trepan`	`Address.h, AnsiCodes.h, AutoCompleter.h, CallbackList.h, etc... ;)`
`07:02.10`	`*** join/#bzflag mmu_man (i=revol@ALyon-253-1-26-209.w83-205.abo.wanadoo.fr)`
`07:02.30`	`learner`	`ahh, those are mostly cheaters that slip through`
`07:02.55`	`learner`	`since their implementation file includes common before the interface`
`07:03.38`	`learner`	`should fix them too, but I'm more concerned with the symantic fix -- I've actually got it erroring the build to tell me what has to be fixed`
`07:07.27`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/src/net/multicast.cxx: more header cleanup, follow inclusion conventions consistently -- this one definitely needs windows testing`
`07:09.48`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/src/game/ (DynamicColor.cxx PhysicsDriver.cxx TextureMatrix.cxx): more header cleanup, follow inclusion conventions consistently`
`07:11.18`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/src/date/buildDate.cxx: yes there is a point to all the common.h requiring before system headers, have faith ye faithless`
`07:14.05`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): more common.h fixage`
`07:17.27`	`*** join/#bzflag _Manu_ (n=Julio@98.Red-80-36-59.pooles.rima-tde.net)`
`07:20.03`	`*** join/#bzflag orchid_ (n=bzgirl@unaffiliated/orchid)`
`07:20.03`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+v orchid_] by ChanServ`
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`07:24.28`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03trepan * 10bzflag/misc/ (Template.cxx Template.h): source file templates`
`07:24.30`	`trepan`	`maybe that'll help`
`07:25.50`	`learner`	`ooh`
`07:26.17`	`trepan`	`is that like pooh but with less p?`
`07:26.23`	`_Manu_`	`good night learner :)`
`07:28.55`	`learner`	`it's like neat-o`
`07:29.17`	`trepan`	`ah, it's something i usually do for my own projs`
`07:29.33`	`learner`	`same here, just didn't think to do it for bz :)`
`07:29.47`	`silverfox`	`so, how hard would it be to get /reset * to return settings to the values at the server load (conf file, etc) rather than program defaults?`
`07:29.51`	`learner`	`usually just copy an existing and cull`
`07:30.07`	`trepan`	`silverfox: not that hard`
`07:30.52`	`silverfox`	`so I'm thinking I'm gonna try to do a patch for my server. Would this be a good/appropriate thing for main?`
`07:31.50`	`trepan`	`you might also want an option to revert to the original defaults`
`07:32.08`	`silverfox`	`hmm... seperate /command ?`
`07:32.13`	`trepan`	`and to be able to take a snapshot of the server's default var state`
`07:32.19`	`trepan`	`yup, probably a couple of them`
`07:32.47`	`JeffM2501`	`I could make you an API function that enumerates all the bzdb vars`
`07:32.57`	`JeffM2501`	`then you could save em, and then set em`
`07:33.09`	`silverfox`	`would this be better in a plugin then?`
`07:33.13`	`trepan`	`no`
`07:33.20`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah I'd do it intrernal`
`07:33.29`	`JeffM2501`	`dosn't mean you can't use the API tho :)`
`07:33.45`	`silverfox`	`maybe I don't understand what the API is for then...`
`07:33.58`	`JeffM2501`	`the API is for what ever it needs to be used for`
`07:34.08`	`JeffM2501`	`it's just a way to orgranise functions`
`07:34.36`	`silverfox`	`oh, I thought API was a way for one thing to talk to another.`
`07:34.48`	`JeffM2501`	`i can be`
`07:34.52`	`JeffM2501`	`that is one common useage`
`07:34.55`	`JeffM2501`	`but not the only one`
`07:35.02`	`silverfox`	`I see.`
`07:35.06`	`JeffM2501`	`a couple functions are built using the API`
`07:35.07`	`silverfox`	`This may be over my head.`
`07:35.11`	`JeffM2501`	`like the oncap stuff`
`07:35.26`	`JeffM2501`	`it just does what a plugin does, but does it internal`
`07:35.37`	`silverfox`	`I'm not familiar with the plugin stuff yet.`
`07:36.50`	`JeffM2501`	`it is just like a function in bzfs`
`07:37.03`	`silverfox`	`I see.`
`07:39.00`	`silverfox`	`so, something like /reset * = reset program vars (grandfathered); /reset default = reset program vars; /reset conf = use command line, var file, and map file vars; /reset save name = save snapshot named 'name'; /reset load name = load snapshot`
`07:39.25`	`silverfox`	`or is it confusing to do all that plus variables under /reset ?`
`07:40.16`	`trepan`	`<PROTECTED>`
`07:40.29`	`silverfox`	`sure.`
`07:40.49`	`silverfox`	`<PROTECTED>`
`07:40.53`	`trepan`	`if you don't mind backwards compatibility, just keep /reset the way it is except that it accesses the server saved state`
`07:40.59`	`silverfox`	`where conf and default are premade snapshots.`
`07:41.20`	`silverfox`	`sure. OK to have that in two places though, right?`
`07:42.20`	`trepan`	`ah, you want it in files... in conf format i guess "-set var val"`
`07:42.42`	`silverfox`	`no, not in files necessarily.`
`07:42.49`	`silverfox`	`here, this:`
`07:42.54`	`silverfox`	`<PROTECTED>`
`07:42.58`	`silverfox`	`<PROTECTED>`
`07:43.02`	`silverfox`	`<PROTECTED>`
`07:43.09`	`silverfox`	`and two premade snapshot's`
`07:43.16`	`silverfox`	`default = program defaults`
`07:43.24`	`silverfox`	`conf = vars at the time of server load.`
`07:43.34`	`silverfox`	`as obtained from files, commandline, etc.`
`07:43.44`	`silverfox`	`default is the same as /reset *`
`07:46.59`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 * 10bzflag/ (include/bzfsAPI.h src/bzfs/bzfsAPI.cxx): function to get a list of all bzdb var names.`
`07:52.02`	`*** part/#bzflag JeffM2501 (n=jeffm@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501)`
`07:52.08`	`silverfox`	`what is CMDMGR.run ?`
`07:54.05`	`*** join/#bzflag Electric1lf (n=david@tor/session/x-32149512a75f55eb)`
`08:13.56`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03trepan * 10bzflag/src/bzflag/ServerMenu.cxx: change the color for 0-shot servers`
`08:37.32`	`Silver[a]`	`what is a 0-shot server?`
`08:54.21`	`_Manu_`	`may be for those olimpics servers.. .(no shots)`
`09:21.20`	`trepan`	`replay servers can also be set to 0 shot`
`09:31.46`	`Silver[a]`	`ah. I see.`
`09:33.42`	`_Manu_`	`you also can set a server with 0 shots and SR flags.. hehe`
`09:35.00`	`*** join/#bzflag Tupone (n=Tupone@host-84-222-136-224.cust-adsl.tiscali.it)`
`09:35.00`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone] by ChanServ`
`09:37.20`	`Silver[a]`	`eww...`
`09:57.03`	`*** join/#bzflag bz6722 (n=3fca532a@webchat.bzflag.bz)`
`10:45.22`	`*** join/#bzflag ToughShooter (n=ts@p54B0160C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)`
`11:27.15`	`*** join/#bzflag bm (n=bm@203-59-240-170.dyn.iinet.net.au)`
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`12:02.43`	`jpa_`	`_Manu_: olympics server has shots, they are just converted to phantom-zone on race tracks :)`
`12:21.46`	`_Manu_`	`jpa_, zoned tanks can kill another zoned ones`
`12:24.27`	`_Manu_`	`and 0-shot is one server with -ms 0`
`12:26.05`	`ruskie`	`hmmm`
`12:26.09`	`ruskie`	`sounds interesting`
`12:32.03`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03trepan * 10bzflag/src/bzflag/ (4 files):`
`12:32.03`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: - do some stupid stuff with /cmds`
`12:32.03`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: - use the same directory for /saveworld and saving from the menu`
`12:32.03`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: - include "common.h" in "World.cxx"`
`12:36.16`	`*** join/#bzflag ep (n=ep@ip68-97-122-98.ok.ok.cox.net)`
`12:51.35`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03jujibo * 10bzflag/src/bzflag/HUDRenderer.cxx: fix: stop displaying Reloaded in... if 0-shot server`
`13:05.03`	`*** join/#bzflag ElectricElf (n=david@tor/session/x-b48c95ccb5a2b564)`
`13:14.15`	`jpa_`	`_Manu_: yeah, but zoned tanks are rarely on the race tracks (which are 50m in the air)`
`13:15.07`	`_Manu_`	`jpa_, then.. why the shots? ;)`
`13:15.27`	`trepan`	`fighting on the ground floor`
`13:15.52`	`jpa_`	`(no need to repeat what trepan said :)`
`13:16.25`	`_Manu_`	`fighting on the ground with zoned shots? heh`
`13:16.45`	`jpa_`	`no no, they are normal on the ground :P`
`13:17.13`	`_Manu_`	`well I think the correct is 0 shots if olimpic server.. heh`
`13:17.27`	`jpa_`	`"correct" :D`
`13:17.45`	`jpa_`	`so you say that the olympics server (the only one AFAIK) is a wrong-made one? :)`
`13:18.15`	`_Manu_`	`you said it ;-p`
`13:18.34`	`_Manu_`	`I don't like olimpics ones`
`13:19.39`	`_Manu_`	`but every admin can do with their servers what they want :)`
`13:22.42`	`*** join/#bzflag learner (n=brlcad@pdpc/supporter/silver/brlcad)`
`13:22.42`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o learner] by ChanServ`
`13:23.39`	`_Manu_`	`learner, good morning`
`13:52.27`	`Pimpi`	`a race _with_ shots might be interesting`
`13:57.29`	`_Manu_`	`not for the first tank :)`
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`15:00.13`	`*** join/#bzflag _Manu_ (n=Julio@98.Red-80-36-59.pooles.rima-tde.net)`
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`15:05.37`	`learner`	`thx _Manu_, morning to you too`
`15:06.26`	`jpa_`	`moning learner`
`15:08.38`	`orange`	`hey, can anyone with the latest cvs connect to either viper or silvercat as observer and see anything?`
`15:09.02`	`orange`	`for me it just sits there saying "Roaming" with no players showing`
`15:09.04`	`TD-Linux`	`I think I have latest CVS`
`15:09.21`	`TD-Linux`	`it's as of last night, is that new enough?`
`15:09.36`	`TD-Linux`	`testing...`
`15:09.38`	`orange`	`dunno, I just got mine today`
`15:09.57`	`orange`	`whoah, it just came in... after about 3 minutes`
`15:10.04`	`orange`	`some kind of texture building?`
`15:10.13`	`learner`	`howdy jpa_`
`15:10.42`	`Chestal`	`orange: probably they updated servers, so you experience the new join behavior`
`15:10.52`	`orange`	`Chestal: a bug?`
`15:11.07`	`TD-Linux`	`I tested it, and it works fine for me`
`15:11.11`	`Chestal`	`orange: it shouldn't take longer than 2 or 3s, though. Unless maybe your name server is broken`
`15:11.13`	`trepan`	`orange: you trying silvercat? if so, try joining again`
`15:11.20`	`trepan`	`see if it's faster`
`15:11.26`	`TD-Linux`	`viper and silvercat both work for me`
`15:11.30`	`Chestal`	`orange: maybe not, but it needs work, at least different feedback for user`
`15:11.34`	`TD-Linux`	`silvercat IS faster in texture downloading`
`15:11.40`	`TD-Linux`	`or it could be me`
`15:11.45`	`orange`	`exture downloaded the first time, and I saw that go by pretty fast
`15:11.54`	`TD-Linux`	`yes, is that in CVS?`
`15:12.05`	`_Manu_`	`orange, I can`
`15:12.21`	`orange`	`trepan: yes, silvercat, joining again now, but it's at least 1 minute so far`
`15:12.42`	`orange`	`there we go`
`15:12.45`	`TD-Linux`	`this brings up something I would like to ask`
`15:12.45`	`orange`	`about 1.5 minutes`
`15:13.01`	`Chestal`	`orange: can you test reverse lookup of your IP?`
`15:13.13`	`Chestal`	`that's the only thing I can imagine could make a difference for you`
`15:14.27`	`orange`	`Chestal: good call, that could be it. I just moved so I have a new ISP, and it looks like the reverse IP is timing out today`
`15:14.48`	`orange`	`thanks`
`15:14.57`	`orange`	`~chestal++`
`15:15.12`	`orange`	`~trepan++`
`15:15.19`	`orange`	`(because he is always so helpful to everyone too :-)`
`15:15.50`	`TD-Linux`	`When I start my private server (CVS last night) and join from LAN, it takes several seconds before anything happens. Why is that? It dosen't seem to do that when I connect to any of the big servers.`
`15:16.05`	`orange`	`probably the same thing`
`15:16.16`	`TD-Linux`	`ok - although a bit quicker`
`15:16.28`	`TD-Linux`	`how do i test reverse lookup?`
`15:16.31`	`blast007`	`iirc, it's a fix to make anti-bans work properly`
`15:17.38`	`orange`	`TD-Linux: what OS on server?`
`15:17.41`	`TD-Linux`	`linux`
`15:18.03`	`TD-Linux`	`iptables firewall`
`15:18.06`	`orange`	`try "host 192.168.1.101" or whatever`
`15:18.15`	`orange`	`whatever your client IP is`
`15:18.31`	`orange`	`though that shouldn't really timeout`
`15:18.57`	`TD-Linux`	`you mean try to join myself?`
`15:19.11`	`orange`	`no, host is a command`
`15:19.15`	`blast007`	`no, run that command with your local IP`
`15:19.17`	`TD-Linux`	`oh`
`15:19.22`	`TD-Linux`	`on the server computer or client?`
`15:19.28`	`orange`	`server`
`15:19.53`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/src/bzfs/ (7 files): more header cleanup related to the need for common.h to appear before any system headers`
`15:20.01`	`TD-Linux`	`it instantly tells me that host isn't found`
`15:20.19`	`orange`	`yeah, hmmm`
`15:20.34`	`orange`	`still, you can try adding that IP and a system name to /etc/hosts on your server`
`15:20.40`	`orange`	`and see if that helps the connect speed`
`15:21.11`	`TD-Linux`	`weird`
`15:21.23`	`blast007`	`heh: -bash: host: command not found`
`15:21.30`	`orange`	`hostx sometimes`
`15:21.32`	`blast007`	`guess I can't try that ;)`
`15:21.50`	`blast007`	`nope, not that either`
`15:21.53`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/configure.ac: add custom tests for std::min and std::max, change the define for std::count to be consistent with autoconf's naming rules: HAVE_STD__COUNT`
`15:21.57`	`TD-Linux`	`when I Connect to my server right after I start it, before it comes up with all the Octree messages, I join instantly`
`15:23.07`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/ (win32/VC6/config.h Dev-C++/config.h): change the std::count define to HAVE_STD__COUNT`
`15:24.35`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/win32/VC71/config.h: change the std::count define to HAVE_STD__COUNT, define NOMINMAX before including windows.h to prevent the old mfc defines from getting used`
`15:25.31`	`TD-Linux`	`is there an easy linux commmand to see my LAN IP?`
`15:25.52`	`trepan`	`/sbin/ifconfig`
`15:26.13`	`TD-Linux`	`thanks`
`15:26.38`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/include/OSFile.h: _COUNT, define NOMINMAX before including windows.h to prevent legacy mfc min and max macros from being defined`
`15:27.24`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/include/ (MediaFile.h bzfsAPI.h): header cleanup`
`15:28.11`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/include/TimeKeeper.h: header cleanup`
`15:28.40`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/include/WordFilter.h: use HAVE_STD__COUNT`
`15:29.23`	`TD-Linux`	`that's odd: my server dosen't work from any client but the server machine`
`15:29.52`	`TD-Linux`	`I disabled the firewall, just in case`
`15:30.06`	`TD-Linux`	`checked my ip`
`15:30.16`	`TD-Linux`	`it was a recent CVS change that killed it`
`15:30.22`	`TD-Linux`	`I think`
`15:30.54`	`TD-Linux`	`it is acting like my firewall is blocking it, other computers just 'Error connecting to server.'`
`15:30.59`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/include/common.h: rewrite/remove the std_max section and add template functions for std::min and std::max if they are not available. define NOMINMAX before including win32.h (hence before windows.h) to encourage the new templates.`
`15:32.07`	`TD-Linux`	`anyone still here?`
`15:32.26`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/src/bzadmin/ (8 files): more common.h header cleanup!`
`15:32.39`	`TD-Linux`	`brlcad is active!`
`15:32.55`	`TD-Linux`	`a cvs commit every 2 minutes`
`15:33.09`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/src/bzflag/ (5 files): it should now be safe to use std::min and std::max..`
`15:34.37`	`learner`	`i think he's done for now`
`15:34.48`	`TD-Linux`	`I need help`
`15:35.14`	`TD-Linux`	`I can't connect to my BZFS server from any computer but the server`
`15:35.31`	`learner`	`DTRemenak, all that header changeage undoubtedly requires some win32 compilation testing...`
`15:35.32`	`blast007`	`is there a firewall on the server?`
`15:35.33`	`TD-Linux`	`nvm, fixed it`
`15:35.37`	`TD-Linux`	`yes, there is`
`15:35.37`	`blast007`	`heh..`
`15:35.52`	`TD-Linux`	`i made a 5154 shaped hole in the firewall, though...`
`15:36.28`	`TD-Linux`	`hey, this is great! The new CVS got rid of that 5 second delay I was whining about!`
`15:36.30`	`learner`	`DTRemenak, I think I accounted for even windows, but whether or not something else in the std::min/max definitions causes compile unhappyness was untestable of course.. :) does work here, though`
`15:36.32`	`TD-Linux`	`it's instant now!`
`15:36.43`	`learner`	`I would appreciate someone on linux testing that as well`
`15:36.51`	`TD-Linux`	`testing what? I can test!!!`
`15:37.06`	`learner`	`testing whether latest cvs compiles`
`15:37.13`	`TD-Linux`	`ok, I'll do it`
`15:37.24`	`learner`	`are you on anonymous?`
`15:37.27`	`TD-Linux`	`It'll take awhile though, this has a 600mhz athlon`
`15:37.30`	`TD-Linux`	`yes, anonymous`
`15:37.37`	`*** join/#bzflag RPG_ (n=G-bus@c-24-15-87-171.hsd1.il.comcast.net)`
`15:37.40`	`learner`	`then you're not much use for a few hours :)`
`15:37.45`	`TD-Linux`	`oh`
`15:37.47`	`trepan`	`learner: got a conflict with std::min definition`
`15:37.51`	`TD-Linux`	`you could make me a dev ;)`
`15:38.00`	`learner`	`trepan, you reran autogen/configure?`
`15:38.05`	`*** part/#bzflag RPG_ (n=G-bus@c-24-15-87-171.hsd1.il.comcast.net)`
`15:38.07`	`*** join/#bzflag RPG_ (n=G-bus@c-24-15-87-171.hsd1.il.comcast.net)`
`15:38.09`	`learner`	`you'll have to`
`15:38.33`	`Chestal`	`should be automatically rerun, though?`
`15:38.37`	`learner`	`since you should obvious HAVE_STD__MIN`
`15:39.04`	`learner`	`otherwise see why the test failed in config.log for std::min/max`
`15:39.59`	`learner`	`Chestal, one would think, but I've seen it screw up before for various reasons too..`
`15:40.38`	`learner`	`only the windows folks should really hit the std::min template -- everyone else should HAVE_STD__MIN`
`15:42.06`	`Chestal`	`ok, compiled on my home box (Debian, g++-4.0)`
`15:42.20`	`learner`	`cool`
`15:42.22`	`Chestal`	`my office PC takes a _little_ longer to finish`
`15:43.49`	`TD-Linux`	`at IBM, my dad says, ANY program you install is deleted by IT services, even if you need it to do your job`
`15:44.03`	`TD-Linux`	`feel lucky that you can play BZFlag at work`
`15:44.12`	`Chestal`	`IBM sucks :-)`
`15:44.24`	`TD-Linux`	`the reception desk has bulletproof glass`
`15:44.27`	`RPG_`	`lol`
`15:44.32`	`BenUrban`	`why would you need to install anything?`
`15:44.35`	`RPG_`	`but does it have compile-error proof compouters?`
`15:44.45`	`Chestal`	`but then, all big corporations suck`
`15:44.48`	`TD-Linux`	`well, sometimes they need to put in a new program to do testing`
`15:44.55`	`BenUrban`	`*varieties`
`15:45.05`	`RPG_`	`here we go again`
`15:45.09`	`RPG_`	`bzfs - 1343 error(s), 220 warning(s)`
`15:45.12`	`TD-Linux`	`he writes test scripts and tests hardware`
`15:45.23`	`TD-Linux`	`well, VHDL hardware, so more like software`
`15:45.53`	`RPG_`	`what the hell am i doing wrong?`
`15:46.04`	`TD-Linux`	`obviously something`
`15:46.15`	`RPG_`	`they're stupid errors, too`
`15:46.19`	`RPG_`	`g:\Programs\Dev-Cpp\repisitories\bzflag\include\network.h(102) : error C2065: 'SOCKET' : undeclared identifier`
`15:46.27`	`TD-Linux`	`do you have the full version of VC++`
`15:46.31`	`RPG_`	`yes`
`15:46.37`	`RPG_`	`all 8 CD's of ti`
`15:46.38`	`RPG_`	`it`
`15:46.50`	`TD-Linux`	`you could try reinstalling`
`15:46.56`	`TD-Linux`	`I downloaded VC++`
`15:46.56`	`blast007`	`RPG_: I have similar errors`
`15:46.58`	`TD-Linux`	`it was 200mb`
`15:47.05`	`TD-Linux`	`the Express version`
`15:47.15`	`RPG_`	`i bought it`
`15:47.17`	`blast007`	`think it's just due to header order, which should/might be fixed in dev cvs now`
`15:47.18`	`RPG_`	`already reinstalled it once`
`15:47.26`	`RPG_`	`so is /me`
`15:47.41`	`TD-Linux`	`that's why TD-Linux put linux on an old computer, this one`
`15:47.58`	`RPG_`	`but i like buying stuff that will retain it's vlaue`
`15:48.01`	`learner`	`RPG_, that could be header changes from last night`
`15:48.20`	`RPG_`	`plus i look arlund for all the deals`
`15:48.31`	`TD-Linux`	`so 02TD-Linux01 could compile`
`15:48.43`	`RPG_`	`how do you make colors?`
`15:48.59`	`TD-Linux`	`you are not supposed to do that on #bzflag, although I did`
`15:49.06`	`TD-Linux`	`you enter the special control character 0003`
`15:49.12`	`TD-Linux`	`how to do that depends on your client`
`15:49.18`	`TD-Linux`	`then the color number`
`15:50.13`	`*** join/#bzflag CBGiMac (n=MJS@cpc4-stme1-5-1-cust161.cdif.cable.ntl.com)`
`15:51.24`	`RPG_`	`hi cbg`
`15:51.34`	`CBG`	`hi RPG_`
`15:52.44`	`*** join/#bzflag mmu_man (i=revol@ALyon-253-1-48-90.w83-205.abo.wanadoo.fr)`
`15:54.47`	`trepan`	`learner: hehe, unsued variable i`
`15:55.02`	`trepan`	`a little i = i action?`
`15:57.12`	`trepan`	`yup, appending 'i = i;' worked, guess you could just return too`
`16:00.11`	`TD-Linux`	`in the new VC++.NET style, should I #include <fstream.h> or <fstream> ?`
`16:00.29`	`learner`	`trepan, heh really?`
`16:00.50`	`trepan`	`gcc-3.3.6, --enable-debug`
`16:01.39`	`learner`	`any either`
`16:01.49`	`trepan`	`sry about the delay, ran out of disk space :)`
`16:01.58`	`learner`	`heh`
`16:02.24`	`TD-Linux`	`do as JeffM2501 tells me: just go out and buy another hard drive! Why not?`
`16:03.22`	`trepan`	`i've got a spare 40G that i don't use`
`16:03.41`	`RPG_`	`can i have it`
`16:03.50`	`trepan`	`no`
`16:03.53`	`blast007`	`lol`
`16:06.43`	`TD-Linux`	`can I have it? I need someplace to put Linux on my RAID 1 250GB machine ;)`
`16:06.54`	`TD-Linux`	`I need PartitionMagic`
`16:07.00`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03trepan * 10bzflag/configure.ac: avoid unused var warnings`
`16:07.19`	`RPG_`	`the buy it`
`16:07.47`	`RPG_`	`write your own versin`
`16:07.56`	`blast007`	`in Pascal`
`16:08.02`	`*** part/#bzflag noyb (n=noyb@pool-71-108-85-69.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)`
`16:08.04`	`RPG_`	`lol`
`16:08.19`	`blast007`	`yay`
`16:08.20`	`TD-Linux`	`~die`
`16:08.20`	`ibot`	`ACTION takes two shots to the head and crumples to the ground, lifeless.`
`16:08.45`	`TD-Linux`	`hmmm`
`16:08.50`	`TD-Linux`	`~die TD-Linux`
`16:08.50`	`ibot`	`ACTION takes two shots to the head, murders TD-Linux then crumples to the ground, lifeless...`
`16:08.55`	`TD-Linux`	`hmm`
`16:09.11`	`TD-Linux`	`ibot is evil`
`16:09.26`	`RPG_`	`lol`
`16:09.39`	`RPG_`	`~weather 60137`
`16:09.43`	`RPG_`	`'caues i couldnt' look outside`
`16:10.21`	`trepan`	`and your /msg was broken?`
`16:10.41`	`CBG`	`evidently :)`
`16:10.48`	`RPG_`	`heh`
`16:13.51`	`TD-Linux`	`I got it to work, you need the location code like KRST`
`16:14.23`	`blast007`	`or use TheLastSpartan`
`16:14.23`	`TheLastSpartan`	`I don't know!`
`16:14.33`	`RPG_`	`lol`
`16:15.49`	`*** join/#bzflag SportyGal (i=DonnaCra@24-75-159-182.vnnyca.adelphia.net)`
`16:20.24`	`TD-Linux`	`it looks bright and sunny outside`
`16:20.31`	`RPG_`	`same`
`16:20.32`	`TD-Linux`	`it feels air-conditioned on the inside`
`16:20.35`	`RPG_`	`'cept there's a cloud`
`16:20.42`	`TD-Linux`	`there are trees out my window`
`16:20.48`	`RPG_`	`i see drapes`
`16:20.58`	`TD-Linux`	`I see 3 clouds!`
`16:21.00`	`TD-Linux`	`beat you!`
`16:21.02`	`RPG_`	`and a 650 pack of Military Approved! cable ties`
`16:21.16`	`TD-Linux`	`holding up your drapes?`
`16:21.20`	`RPG_`	`no`
`16:21.21`	`RPG_`	`just sitting there`
`16:21.28`	`TD-Linux`	`ok`
`16:21.43`	`TD-Linux`	`I see an ancient computer`
`16:21.52`	`TD-Linux`	`with FC3`
`16:21.55`	`TD-Linux`	`with X-Chat`
`16:21.58`	`TD-Linux`	`that I am using`
`16:22.00`	`blast007`	`...`
`16:27.22`	`RPG_`	`heh... http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/gasprices/states/index.shtml`
`16:30.02`	`*** join/#bzflag JeffM2501 (n=JeffM@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501)`
`16:30.02`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ`
`16:39.54`	`*** part/#bzflag RPG_ (n=G-bus@c-24-15-87-171.hsd1.il.comcast.net)`
`16:39.57`	`*** join/#bzflag RPG_ (n=G-bus@c-24-15-87-171.hsd1.il.comcast.net)`
`16:40.01`	`learner`	`trepan, Oh, the tests themselves.. I just copied the existing std::count test`
`16:40.46`	`learner`	`JeffM2501, relatively massive header and define changes; if you wouldn't mind a compile-test..`
`16:40.54`	`RPG_`	`lol`
`16:40.59`	`RPG_`	`be prepared for 1000's of errosr`
`16:41.01`	`learner`	`there were serveral things that have nice potential for breaking the winders`
`16:41.13`	`learner`	`some from last night, some from today`
`16:41.32`	`learner`	`RPG_, that's probably a single header, network.h in bzfs`
`16:41.48`	`learner`	`RPG_, the count means nothing, only the first error matters`
`16:42.34`	`RPG_`	`lerner: is that something that will be changed in CVS, or do i have to aply a fix to it?`
`16:42.36`	`RPG_`	`btw, a total of 12,178 errors`
`16:42.59`	`blast007`	`RPG_: just be patient ;)`
`16:43.04`	`learner`	`see that number is useless -- it could be 1 it could be 10 million`
`16:43.34`	`learner`	`RPG_, no it's going to stay broken forever now -- what do you think :P`
`16:43.40`	`RPG_`	`lol`
`16:43.42`	`JeffM2501`	`learner, for your common.h thing?`
`16:44.31`	`learner`	`the two that I'm worried about is common.h that was added to bzfs.h before a network header`
`16:44.42`	`JeffM2501`	`learner, who gets to name 2.0.4 ?`
`16:44.45`	`learner`	`there was some comment about not including windows.h`
`16:44.57`	`JeffM2501`	`did you fix OSFile.h?`
`16:45.08`	`JeffM2501`	`it was including windows direclty, when it should have included win32.h`
`16:45.11`	`learner`	`the second is whether or not windows build reaches the new std::min/max defines in common.h`
`16:45.13`	`JeffM2501`	`I saw it the other day, but didn't fix it`
`16:45.24`	`learner`	`i didn't fix it`
`16:45.29`	`learner`	`didn't know if there was some magical reason`
`16:45.50`	`JeffM2501`	`windows has lots of magic`
`16:46.05`	`learner`	`with common.h included, it shouldn't need either any more`
`16:46.18`	`JeffM2501`	`c:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio .NET 2003\Vc7\include\xutility(1245): error C2995: 'const comparable &std::max(const comparable &,const comparable &)' : template function has already been defined`
`16:46.46`	`learner`	`oh wow, so you do have that bugger somewhere :)`
`16:47.03`	`learner`	`i defined NOMINMAX, so it avoids the mfc stuff that was preventing the template funcs`
`16:47.17`	`learner`	`add HAVE_STD__MIN to your config.h`
`16:47.35`	`learner`	`same for MAX`
`16:48.13`	`JeffM2501`	`xutility`
`16:48.24`	`JeffM2501`	`// TEMPLATE FUNCTION max`
`16:48.24`	`JeffM2501`	`template<class _Ty> inline`
`16:48.25`	`JeffM2501`	`const _Ty& _MAX(const _Ty& _Left, const _Ty& _Right)`
`16:48.26`	`JeffM2501`	`{// return larger of _Left and _Right`
`16:48.29`	`JeffM2501`	`return (_Left < _Right ? _Right : _Left);`
`16:48.32`	`learner`	`must get defined if NOMINMAX is defined`
`16:48.32`	`JeffM2501`	`}`
`16:48.37`	`JeffM2501`	`k`
`16:49.04`	`JeffM2501`	`do have stdmax too?`
`16:49.24`	`learner`	`with this change, we should all be able to just use std::min and std::max now instead of std_min STD_MIN MIN etc`
`16:49.28`	`learner`	`yeah`
`16:49.32`	`JeffM2501`	`cool`
`16:49.42`	`JeffM2501`	`it's compiling common now`
`16:50.09`	`JeffM2501`	`I think we should desuport vc6`
`16:50.16`	`JeffM2501`	`the entire solution is building now`
`16:50.41`	`JeffM2501`	`it'll take about 5 min`
`16:50.47`	`learner`	`has tim made a declaration on libtool?`
`16:50.57`	`JeffM2501`	`tim hasn't declared crap`
`16:51.07`	`JeffM2501`	`what is libtool used for?`
`16:51.19`	`learner`	`libtool builds libraries cross-platform`
`16:51.23`	`learner`	`need it for the plugins`
`16:51.27`	`JeffM2501`	`ahh`
`16:51.46`	`JeffM2501`	`he may say to make them optional`
`16:52.00`	`learner`	`until now, bz's only used simple static libraries, easy to account for in the makefile.ams`
`16:52.04`	`JeffM2501`	`since libtool probably dosn't exist on the distro on his toaster`
`16:52.17`	`learner`	`libtool can't be option is the thing`
`16:52.28`	`learner`	`you either have libtool make rules or not`
`16:52.36`	`JeffM2501`	`I say do it`
`16:52.40`	`JeffM2501`	`was there a posible problem?`
`16:52.49`	`learner`	`i don't suspect it'll be a problem since tupone snuck in the upgrade to configure.ac`
`16:52.58`	`JeffM2501`	`do it and see if he complains`
`16:53.05`	`JeffM2501`	`otherwise you'll wait weeks for something`
`16:53.16`	`JeffM2501`	`I think he's trying to see how we do on our own`
`16:53.32`	`learner`	`i wasn't going to wait -- just making sure there wasn't a yea-verify-thou-shalt-not`
`16:53.32`	`JeffM2501`	`whoot there went 102 errors`
`16:53.48`	`JeffM2501`	`learner, how many of those do we listen to :)`
`16:53.52`	`learner`	`:)`
`16:54.07`	`JeffM2501`	`people are using plugins`
`16:54.26`	`JeffM2501`	`so I think what ever needs to be done to make them should be done`
`16:54.33`	`JeffM2501`	`they don't break any large "covenats"`
`16:54.36`	`*** part/#bzflag RPG_away (n=G-bus@c-24-15-87-171.hsd1.il.comcast.net)`
`16:54.38`	`learner`	`libtool will handle all the details of making the right makefile rules for building the shared libraries regardless of the platform`
`16:54.43`	`JeffM2501`	`cool`
`16:54.50`	`JeffM2501`	`that's nice of it :)`
`16:55.13`	`learner`	`right now it's fairly linux-specific without editing the makefiles some`
`16:55.33`	`JeffM2501`	`when you mod the makefiles for the plugins, note that the SAMPLE_PLUGIN dir is meant to be a template to make new plugins, there is a script that replaces SAMPLE_PLUGIN with the new plugin name.`
`16:55.57`	`learner`	`k`
`16:56.25`	`JeffM2501`	`my goal was to have some automated way to make a new plugin template for users`
`16:56.30`	`JeffM2501`	`on any OS`
`16:56.46`	`JeffM2501`	`since you have to do a couple things in the right way in the code/project or they won't work`
`16:57.07`	`JeffM2501`	`and plugins seem to be good for people starting out with development`
`16:57.26`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah multicast fails, fd_set is redefined`
`16:59.13`	`learner`	`maybe just remove that second header in bzfs.h`
`16:59.48`	`JeffM2501`	`what second header?`
`16:59.54`	`JeffM2501`	`network.h?`
`17:00.09`	`learner`	`oh, you said multicast`
`17:00.14`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`17:00.15`	`learner`	`yeah`
`17:00.28`	`JeffM2501`	`it pulls in winsock2`
`17:00.53`	`learner`	`oh, bad common.h in network.cxx`
`17:01.33`	`JeffM2501`	`move common up?`
`17:01.42`	`learner`	`in network.cxx network.h should be first, then those system headers, and no common.h`
`17:02.21`	`JeffM2501`	`didn't change a thing`
`17:02.45`	`JeffM2501`	`oh hang on`
`17:02.50`	`learner`	`hmm.. so what is the bigger problem? can't include windows.h before winsock2.h?`
`17:02.50`	`JeffM2501`	`we are geting winsock1`
`17:02.57`	`JeffM2501`	`we need a #def`
`17:03.10`	`JeffM2501`	`winsock2 actualy includes it's own windows, but it does a #def first`
`17:03.18`	`JeffM2501`	`so that winsock1 dosn't get done`
`17:03.54`	`learner`	`a define that'd go in win32.h?`
`17:04.00`	`JeffM2501`	`why is windows.h only included for mingw?`
`17:04.17`	`learner`	`beated me`
`17:04.56`	`learner`	`oh, i think one of the win32 config.h's included windows.h is why`
`17:05.05`	`JeffM2501`	`ahh`
`17:05.10`	`JeffM2501`	`so I'd put it in config`
`17:05.14`	`learner`	`i would think you'd want to remove it from the config.h and just add it for everyone to win32.h`
`17:05.23`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`17:05.32`	`JeffM2501`	`or move it to both configs :)`
`17:05.33`	`learner`	`since including headers in config.h is wierd`
`17:07.13`	`JeffM2501`	`when we include win32.h do we #def around in it where we include it?`
`17:07.14`	`*** join/#bzflag Otori (n=nazgul@i53871229.versanet.de)`
`17:07.16`	`JeffM2501`	`or is it autmagic?`
`17:07.58`	`*** part/#bzflag Otori (n=nazgul@i53871229.versanet.de)`
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`17:10.07`	`JeffM2501`	`geting closer`
`17:10.29`	`JeffM2501`	`since now windows.h dosn't do winsock, I have to make sure winsock2 is incoluded before anything`
`17:11.09`	`ToughShooter`	`Is the fix for jitter (like SportChick had) in 2.0.2?`
`17:11.11`	`JeffM2501`	`got net to build`
`17:11.15`	`JeffM2501`	`ares had to change too`
`17:11.27`	`JeffM2501`	`ToughShooter, what OS you on?`
`17:11.38`	`JeffM2501`	`and no the changes for her were after`
`17:11.48`	`JeffM2501`	`the current windows beta build will have the fix`
`17:12.11`	`ToughShooter`	`JeffM2501: It's not about me, it's about another player who has horrible jitter but no jitter is shown in lagstats. He's using NT 5.0`
`17:12.19`	`JeffM2501`	`NT5?`
`17:12.20`	`JeffM2501`	`wow`
`17:12.22`	`JeffM2501`	`impresive`
`17:12.29`	`JeffM2501`	`since they stoped NT at 4`
`17:12.40`	`JeffM2501`	`I think you mean windows 2000`
`17:12.41`	`ToughShooter`	`Publicly called "Windows 2000"`
`17:12.43`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`17:12.52`	`JeffM2501`	`have them get the current beta`
`17:13.40`	`JeffM2501`	`learner, of course CURL is busted now :)`
`17:13.43`	`ToughShooter`	`I told him, just making sure that the fix wasn't in 2.0.2 (he was still jittering with this version)`
`17:14.57`	`JeffM2501`	`there are many reasons for jitter`
`17:15.12`	`JeffM2501`	`the problem with SportChick was due to a timer issue on a laptop`
`17:15.12`	`ToughShooter`	`Sure`
`17:15.20`	`JeffM2501`	`is this person on a laptop?`
`17:15.31`	`RatOmeter`	`Network/gameplay question: viper.pimpi.org has started kicking me for "not using UDP on your end". UDP is enabled on my end`
`17:15.45`	`ToughShooter`	`What makes me wondering that only 2ms jitter are shown in lagstats. Dunno whether he uses one or not`
`17:15.59`	`JeffM2501`	`RatOmeter, do you have proxy servers or routers inbetween you and them that would remove UDP?`
`17:16.11`	`RatOmeter`	`Looking in the windows pfirewall.log, I see outgoing ICMP packets to pimpi are be dropped by the windows firewall, any relation?`
`17:16.17`	`JeffM2501`	`ToughShooter, coudl be low framerate`
`17:16.30`	`RatOmeter`	`no proxies, routers, yes.`
`17:17.02`	`JeffM2501`	`RatOmeter, ICMP is not UDP`
`17:17.07`	`ToughShooter`	`JeffM2501: I asked him how many frames he has and he replied 24-36 using "Nvidia 440 128MB"`
`17:17.15`	`JeffM2501`	`that's kinda low`
`17:17.19`	`RatOmeter`	`understood, I was just looking for anything being dropped.`
`17:17.29`	`learner`	`win32.h is included in common.h (and should probably only be included there)`
`17:17.30`	`JeffM2501`	`RatOmeter, do you have high packetloss?`
`17:17.36`	`blast007`	`I only get 24FPS on my computer, and I don't have jitter`
`17:17.39`	`ToughShooter`	`JeffM2501: My ibook wasn't much better`
`17:17.39`	`JeffM2501`	`learner, yeah I'm working it out`
`17:17.52`	`blast007`	`it's a desktop computer though`
`17:18.00`	`RatOmeter`	`I'll do a quick check, but I usually run about 140 ms lag and 0 pkt loss to that server`
`17:18.07`	`JeffM2501`	`learner, looks like I'm down to just fighing with CURL`
`17:18.09`	`learner`	`i know of a couple other places that included win32.h, but they shouldn't be necessary if the common.h includes are always first`
`17:18.38`	`RatOmeter`	`sorry to ask and run,must be afk for a bit`
`17:18.44`	`JeffM2501`	`12 tasks`
`17:22.37`	`JeffM2501`	`gotta love the fact that the png reader needs winsock :)`
`17:23.01`	`blast007`	`heh`
`17:26.55`	`JeffM2501`	`god I hate curl`
`17:33.31`	`JeffM2501`	`and ares`
`17:34.19`	`JeffM2501`	`whoot client is linking :)`
`17:42.08`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 * 10bzflag/ (16 files in 8 dirs):`
`17:42.08`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: like totaly make it build on windows again`
`17:42.08`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: ares and curl can suck it.`
`17:44.05`	`JeffM2501`	`learner, that should be all the changes, you'll want to check nix again, tho I think it should be fine`
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`18:16.15`	`JeffM2501`	`grrr... learner, common.h can't go in the API man :)`
`18:17.27`	`learner`	`JeffM2501, cool will do`
`18:17.31`	`JeffM2501`	`it should not ever expose anything that is that system dependent, the cxx file can use it for guts, but plugins don't have access to a common`
`18:17.34`	`JeffM2501`	`I'm fixing it now`
`18:17.50`	`JeffM2501`	`and fixing roguegeno`
`18:17.54`	`JeffM2501`	`cus that sucker just don't work`
`18:18.22`	`learner`	`i have no idea what you're talking about so I'll just nod`
`18:18.28`	`JeffM2501`	`heh`
`18:18.38`	`JeffM2501`	`it is a plugin that makes it when rogues get shot with geno, they all die`
`18:18.45`	`JeffM2501`	`like they were a team`
`18:19.04`	`learner`	`i mean the common.h not going in the api`
`18:19.26`	`JeffM2501`	`oh`
`18:19.37`	`JeffM2501`	`plugins may not have config`
`18:19.45`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 * 10bzflag/include/bzfsAPI.h: api don't need or want config, since the plugins may not even have it :)`
`18:19.54`	`JeffM2501`	`all the API header is, is some high level prototypes`
`18:20.08`	`JeffM2501`	`it will never include windows, or any real system headers other then STL`
`18:20.29`	`learner`	`hmm`
`18:20.35`	`JeffM2501`	`basicly my plugins said they could not find config`
`18:20.44`	`learner`	`common.h is really just supposed to be system header protection`
`18:20.57`	`JeffM2501`	`then our dirs arn't set up for it correctly`
`18:21.08`	`JeffM2501`	`since it includes stuff that isn't in include`
`18:21.19`	`learner`	`mkay, no biggie`
`18:21.23`	`JeffM2501`	`and it means we'd have to ship a config.h with the windows binary`
`18:21.33`	`JeffM2501`	`I don't think anythin in API sould need common.h`
`18:21.40`	`JeffM2501`	`the CXX for the API sure`
`18:21.40`	`learner`	`the real test will be a system that really doesn't have std::min/max`
`18:21.43`	`JeffM2501`	`but not the header`
`18:21.55`	`JeffM2501`	`api.h dosn't have any min or max in it`
`18:21.57`	`learner`	`and a plugin that wants to use it`
`18:22.10`	`JeffM2501`	`then the plugin will include what it needs itself`
`18:22.11`	`learner`	`course, can just tell them "don't" :)`
`18:22.25`	`JeffM2501`	`if the plugin wants to include common and set up it's dirs correctly ,it can`
`18:22.41`	`JeffM2501`	`just like some plugins use textutils, and they must include common`
`18:22.46`	`JeffM2501`	`but that is an option`
`18:22.54`	`learner`	`was this intentional:`
`18:22.54`	`learner`	`- if ( capEvent->teamCaped != eNoTeam && capEvent->teamCaped != team )`
`18:22.54`	`learner`	`+ if ( capEvent->teamCaped != team )`
`18:23.27`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah because team is set to -1 when it's for all, and noTeam happens to == -1 :)`
`18:23.46`	`JeffM2501`	`so if it's suposed to be for all caps, both team teamcaped and team will be -1`
`18:24.14`	`learner`	`just making sure since it was in the headerfix commits`
`18:25.52`	`JeffM2501`	`ohh that was a change from last night`
`18:25.57`	`JeffM2501`	`just mixed in`
`18:27.10`	`RatOmeter`	`strange. my kick for no UDP problem at pimpi fixed itself`
`18:27.22`	`Pimpi`	`happens`
`18:27.34`	`RatOmeter`	`guess so.`
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`18:30.09`	`SportyGal`	`ToughShooter: keep in mind that when I had jitter it did show up in lagstats`
`18:32.04`	`SportyGal`	`!weather 90277`
`18:32.05`	`TheLastSpartan`	`SportyGal: The current temperature in Redondo Beach, California (90277) is 68�F (10:55 AM PDT on August 16, 2005). Conditions: Overcast. Humidity: 83%. Dew Point: 63�F. Pressure: 30.02 in (1016 hPa). Visibility: 7.0 miles (11.3 kilometers). UV: 3 out of 16`
`18:32.17`	`SportyGal`	`nice! maybe I'll go outside for lunch`
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`18:49.46`	`*** join/#bzflag silverfox (i=vircuser@68-116-47-254.static.mdfd.or.charter.com)`
`18:50.21`	`*** join/#bzflag zoly (n=l@p549DC90F.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`18:50.48`	`zoly`	`!seen brad2901`
`18:50.48`	`TheLastSpartan`	`zoly: brad2901 was last seen here 20 hours, 56 minutes, and 9 seconds ago saying: <brad2901> ~brad2901--`
`18:51.13`	`zoly`	`TheLastSpartan, snotback`
`18:51.14`	`TheLastSpartan`	`zoly: Tah mah de`
`18:52.03`	`zoly`	`bye`
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`19:46.25`	`josago`	`hi all`
`19:51.36`	`meacan`	`hi`
`19:54.19`	`hardwire`	`Metropolis is a neat map`
`19:55.36`	`TD-Linux`	`LouMan is a neat map-maker`
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`20:13.04`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 * 10bzflag/plugins/RogueGenocide/ (4 files):`
`20:13.05`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: remove the storage of the rogue list, since we don't need it or use it.`
`20:13.05`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: kill the right people at the right time once and only once.`
`20:13.05`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: don't kill non spawned people.`
`20:13.05`	`CIA-3`	`BZFlag: update windows projects to current standards.`
`20:28.48`	`JeffM2501`	`what perm should I put scorereset to check?`
`20:29.07`	`RPG_`	`/set`
`20:29.18`	`JeffM2501`	`k`
`20:29.19`	`RPG_`	`the API can check perms?`
`20:29.23`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`20:29.28`	`RPG_`	`is that new?`
`20:29.50`	`JeffM2501`	`nto really`
`20:29.55`	`RPG_`	`oh`
`20:29.58`	`RPG_`	`i'll hvae to read the docs again`
`20:30.07`	`JeffM2501`	`BZF_API bool bz_hasPerm ( bz_PlayerRecord playerRecord, const char perm );`
`20:30.14`	`JeffM2501`	`BZF_API bool bz_grantPerm ( bz_PlayerRecord playerRecord, const char perm );`
`20:30.14`	`JeffM2501`	`BZF_API bool bz_revokePerm ( bz_PlayerRecord playerRecord, const char perm );`
`20:30.24`	`JeffM2501`	`and you can have custom perms on groups if you want`
`20:30.38`	`RPG_`	`oh`
`20:30.41`	`RPG_`	`neato`
`20:30.58`	`RPG_`	`to i could do a:`
`20:31.11`	`RPG_`	`bz_hasPerm (playerrecord, "MATCHEND");`
`20:31.22`	`RPG_`	`*to == so`
`20:31.24`	`JeffM2501`	`sure`
`20:31.38`	`RPG_`	`is there support for /set variables too?`
`20:31.42`	`JeffM2501`	`and if one of there groups had MATCHEND as a perm they'd be good`
`20:31.46`	`RPG_`	`i mean registereing new /set variabels`
`20:31.48`	`JeffM2501`	`bzdb varialbe?`
`20:31.53`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah for a long while now`
`20:31.59`	`JeffM2501`	`set one that dosn't exist`
`20:32.03`	`RPG_`	`yes`
`20:32.04`	`JeffM2501`	`and set it's perms and persistance`
`20:32.07`	`RPG_`	`yes`
`20:32.14`	`RPG_`	`and then allow people with /set to change it`
`20:32.37`	`RPG_`	`_allowPlayersDuringMatch (bool)`
`20:32.44`	`*** join/#bzflag Otori (n=nazgul@i53871229.versanet.de)`
`20:33.34`	`JeffM2501`	`huh?`
`20:33.49`	`JeffM2501`	`once you add it it's a normal bzdb var`
`20:34.02`	`RPG_`	`k`
`20:34.03`	`JeffM2501`	`and the normal rules apply`
`20:34.07`	`JeffM2501`	`that's why you set it's perm`
`20:34.29`	`JeffM2501`	`#define BZ_BZDBPERM_USER1`
`20:34.29`	`JeffM2501`	`#define BZ_BZDBPERM_SERVER2`
`20:34.29`	`JeffM2501`	`#define BZ_BZDBPERM_CLIENT3`
`20:34.57`	`RPG_`	`those commands you have for editing the map, such as bz_addBox and bz_addPyr, do they actually put the object in the map as soon as the command is run? or does the server have to be restet?`
`20:35.04`	`JeffM2501`	`they dont' edit the map`
`20:35.10`	`JeffM2501`	`they define the map`
`20:35.12`	`RPG_`	`oh`
`20:35.23`	`JeffM2501`	`IF you handle the "make world" event`
`20:35.31`	`JeffM2501`	`you then call those functions to define a world`
`20:35.35`	`JeffM2501`	`and that world is used`
`20:35.39`	`RPG_`	`ahhh`
`20:35.43`	`RPG_`	`like a random map generato`
`20:35.44`	`RPG_`	`are`
`20:35.46`	`JeffM2501`	`there is no API to read the existing map, or modify it`
`20:35.47`	`JeffM2501`	`yes`
`20:36.03`	`JeffM2501`	`if the plugin makes the map, then the random isn't called, and the mapfile is ignored.`
`20:36.38`	`JeffM2501`	`the problem is, you can't really mess with the map after it's been loaded.`
`20:36.46`	`orange`	`you can, but it gets confusing :-)`
`20:36.52`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah and crashy :)`
`20:37.11`	`JeffM2501`	`the best I could do is add a new event, that is "hey I got a world, here it is, dick with it before I finalaise it"`
`20:37.49`	`JeffM2501`	`or maybe something that would let the plugin modify the data for each object as it was added`
`20:37.56`	`JeffM2501`	`so maybe you could filter out stuff`
`20:39.22`	`*** part/#bzflag bm (n=bm@203-59-240-170.dyn.iinet.net.au)`
`20:39.30`	`RPG_`	`jeff, do you have an up-to-date bzfs.lib?`
`20:39.37`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`20:39.41`	`RPG_`	`and bzfs?`
`20:39.45`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`20:39.47`	`RPG_`	`i still get all these errors`
`20:40.00`	`RPG_`	`someone told me it was a CVS thing`
`20:40.10`	`RPG_`	`oh wati, i forgot to cvs update`
`20:40.12`	`RPG_`	`heh`
`20:40.22`	`JeffM2501`	`I just fixed all the stuff that learner changed this morning`
`20:40.44`	`RPG_`	`what ifle was it in?`
`20:41.17`	`RPG_`	`still errors`
`20:41.25`	`JeffM2501`	`file`
`20:41.26`	`JeffM2501`	`HA`
`20:41.28`	`RPG_`	`g:\Programs\Visual Studio C++\Vc7\include\xutility(1245) : error C2995: 'const comparable &std::max(const comparable &,const comparable &)' : template function has already been defined`
`20:41.32`	`JeffM2501`	`dude it was like all over the place`
`20:41.39`	`RPG_`	`in ServerListCahe.cxx`
`20:41.48`	`RPG_`	`Project: game`
`20:41.49`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah it'll be in many places`
`20:41.57`	`JeffM2501`	`there were core changes to most of the system headers`
`20:42.01`	`JeffM2501`	`big change`
`20:42.03`	`JeffM2501`	`big rework`
`20:42.08`	`JeffM2501`	`just wait for cvs to update`
`20:42.11`	`RPG_`	`and ti turned out faulty?`
`20:42.12`	`JeffM2501`	`can take like 5 horus`
`20:42.21`	`JeffM2501`	`RPG_, no, it worked fine for linux`
`20:42.23`	`JeffM2501`	`and OSX`
`20:42.26`	`RPG_`	`heh`
`20:42.31`	`JeffM2501`	`learner just has no way to test on windows`
`20:42.35`	`JeffM2501`	`and windows does it difrent`
`20:42.39`	`JeffM2501`	`so I had to make changes`
`20:42.41`	`JeffM2501`	`to make it all work`
`20:42.42`	`RPG_`	`apparentlhy`
`20:42.56`	`JeffM2501`	`it happens when you support more then one OS`
`20:45.06`	`JeffM2501`	`most drivers do it with a common kernel now anyway`
`20:46.04`	`JeffM2501`	`the default openGL implmentation has allways been up to MS on windows. Then the various cards implement there own in the driver`
`20:46.20`	`JeffM2501`	`so actualy having a default GL that at least does SOME hardware is not bad`
`20:46.39`	`*** join/#bzflag Meteorite (n=456d106d@webchat.bzflag.bz)`
`20:49.47`	`ToughShooter`	`Now that I think about it.. you can't prevent something that runs in kernel space to access graphic cards directly`
`20:50.08`	`JeffM2501`	`the drivers HAVE to acess the cards direclty`
`20:50.12`	`RPG_`	`and if you could, it'd really crap on MS's rep`
`20:50.17`	`JeffM2501`	`they use an openGL ICD`
`20:50.22`	`*** join/#bzflag Meteorite (n=456d106d@webchat.bzflag.bz)`
`20:50.23`	`JeffM2501`	`stands for Installable Client Driver`
`20:51.11`	`ToughShooter`	`I'm believing to much :/`
`20:51.21`	`Meteorite`	`Hello!`
`20:51.26`	`RPG_`	`sup`
`20:51.29`	`Meteorite`	`Trying out this new IRD. :)`
`20:51.37`	`RPG_`	`~IRD`
`20:51.43`	`Meteorite`	`IRC`
`20:51.44`	`*** join/#bzflag a_monkey (n=elmunky@user-0can33s.cable.mindspring.com)`
`20:51.46`	`RPG_`	`ibot doesn't seem to know what that is. explain.`
`20:51.54`	`Meteorite`	`um`
`20:52.09`	`RPG_`	`heh`
`20:52.15`	`RPG_`	`~IRD is a misspelling of IRC`
`20:52.15`	`ibot`	`RPG_: okay`
`20:52.34`	`ToughShooter`	`LOL`
`20:52.39`	`Meteorite`	`Who's who?`
`20:52.44`	`Meteorite`	`Never used this before.`
`20:52.48`	`RPG_`	`ibot is our leader`
`20:52.50`	`Meteorite`	`ah`
`20:53.18`	`learner`	`hello Meteorite`
`20:53.21`	`Meteorite`	`hey`
`20:53.53`	`Meteorite`	`Are there IRC clients instead of using an online interface?`
`20:54.00`	`learner`	`yes, and they're preferred`
`20:54.06`	`Meteorite`	`ok`
`20:54.06`	`RPG_`	`lol`
`20:54.16`	`learner`	`xchat is popular with the linux folks`
`20:54.19`	`Meteorite`	`Any for Mac?`
`20:54.23`	`RPG_`	`xchat`
`20:54.26`	`learner`	`irssi is great for console`
`20:54.28`	`RPG_`	`err.....`
`20:54.30`	`Meteorite`	`j :)`
`20:54.32`	`Meteorite`	`k`
`20:54.38`	`JeffM2501`	`xchat`
`20:54.48`	`a_monkey`	`Meteorite: mac? colloquy!`
`20:55.04`	`ToughShooter`	`X-Chat Aqua`
`20:55.11`	`learner`	`if you want a window'd gui one for os x, there's xchat, colloquy, ircle (probably the most popular) and a few others`
`20:55.21`	`RPG_`	`and gaim!`
`20:55.27`	`Meteorite`	`lol`
`20:55.32`	`Meteorite`	`sure are a lot`
`20:55.50`	`ToughShooter`	`Colloquy crashes often with no reason, freezing when doing nothing or dragging text etc`
`20:56.00`	`learner`	`for a console client that would run in Terminal, there are dozens`
`20:56.21`	`RPG_`	`but i'm a GUI whore`
`20:56.21`	`a_monkey`	`ToughShooter: not for me`
`20:56.33`	`a_monkey`	`ToughShooter: well, i have the beta version`
`20:56.34`	`JeffM2501`	`gaim blows at IRC`
`20:56.38`	`JeffM2501`	`just like trillian`
`20:56.44`	`learner`	`JeffM2501, build works here`
`20:56.46`	`RPG_`	`they imprelmented the /clear command last release!`
`20:56.49`	`JeffM2501`	`learner, cool`
`20:56.54`	`JeffM2501`	`now I can break things`
`20:57.02`	`learner`	`now I can libtoolize`
`20:57.09`	`RPG_`	`i can make plugins!`
`20:57.11`	`Meteorite`	`Can you register like AIM or something?`
`20:57.12`	`learner`	`(i.e. break things) cough`
`20:57.30`	`RPG_`	`it's different, meterorite`
`20:57.30`	`a_monkey`	`Meteorite: yup`
`20:57.30`	`learner`	`Meteorite, yes, see http://freenode.net`
`20:57.43`	`a_monkey`	`Meteorite: /msg nickserv help register`
`20:57.45`	`Meteorite`	`k`
`20:57.46`	`learner`	`each network is different, this one has a nickserv`
`20:57.53`	`JeffM2501`	`learner, you won't break my plugins`
`20:57.55`	`*** join/#bzflag Otori (n=nazgul@i53871229.versanet.de)`
`20:57.56`	`JeffM2501`	`:)`
`20:58.04`	`learner`	`:)`
`20:58.52`	`*** join/#bzflag Meteorite (n=456d106d@webchat.bzflag.bz)`
`20:58.57`	`Meteorite`	`hmm`
`20:59.04`	`Meteorite`	`some reason lost the connection lol`
`20:59.20`	`Meteorite`	`thanks for the tips guys!`
`20:59.31`	`learner`	`~tip Meteorite`
`20:59.37`	`learner`	`aww`
`21:00.01`	`learner`	`~bzflist`
`21:00.32`	`Meteorite`	`wow`
`21:00.39`	`Meteorite`	`it outputed all the servers`
`21:01.09`	`learner`	`this is the hub of most of the bz activities`
`21:01.22`	`RPG_`	`bz_setBZDBBool( const char* variable, bool val, int perms, bool persistent )`
`21:01.22`	`RPG_`	`what's perms?`
`21:01.22`	`RPG_`	`what's persistent?`
`21:01.23`	`learner`	`there are means to introspect most of the network`
`21:01.54`	`JeffM2501`	`RPG_, one of the 3 #defines I showed you earlyer`
`21:01.58`	`learner`	`RPG_, means it doesn't go away`
`21:02.22`	`RPG_`	`put what does perms do?`
`21:02.24`	`JeffM2501`	`look at where existing bzdb vars are defined, you'll see how they use them`
`21:02.29`	`JeffM2501`	`RPG_, says who can set it`
`21:02.32`	`JeffM2501`	`the client`
`21:02.34`	`JeffM2501`	`the server`
`21:02.36`	`JeffM2501`	`or the users`
`21:02.44`	`JeffM2501`	`or noone`
`21:02.49`	`RPG_`	`what about everyoen?`
`21:02.59`	`JeffM2501`	`users`
`21:03.02`	`RPG_`	`gotcha`
`21:03.06`	`JeffM2501`	`it is not the /set perm`
`21:03.14`	`JeffM2501`	`it is the bzdb perm`
`21:03.19`	`*** join/#bzflag zoly (n=l@p549DC90F.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`21:03.21`	`JeffM2501`	`some variables are not affected by /set`
`21:03.27`	`RPG_`	`ahh`
`21:03.30`	`JeffM2501`	`some can only come from the server`
`21:03.35`	`zoly`	`!seen brad2901`
`21:03.35`	`TheLastSpartan`	`zoly: brad2901 was last seen here 23 hours, 8 minutes, and 56 seconds ago saying: <brad2901> ~brad2901--`
`21:03.40`	`RPG_`	`like servmsg`
`21:03.48`	`JeffM2501`	`tha'ts difrent`
`21:03.54`	`RPG_`	`well at least i have the idea down`
`21:03.59`	`RPG_`	`off to do something with it`
`21:04.03`	`JeffM2501`	`best is to find a variable you know you want to be like, and use perms like it`
`21:04.40`	`RPG_`	`i register it in bz_Load, do i have to unregister it in bz_unload?`
`21:04.55`	`JeffM2501`	`register what?`
`21:05.01`	`RPG_`	`the BZDB entry`
`21:05.09`	`JeffM2501`	`how do you "register" an etry?`
`21:05.15`	`RPG_`	`i mean "set"`
`21:05.18`	`RPG_`	`whatever`
`21:05.20`	`RPG_`	`i'll figure it out`
`21:05.21`	`JeffM2501`	`is there an unset?`
`21:05.34`	`Meteorite`	`I have to go, cya.`
`21:05.35`	`RPG_`	`don't think so`
`21:05.37`	`RPG_`	`cya met.`
`21:05.38`	`*** part/#bzflag Meteorite (n=456d106d@webchat.bzflag.bz)`
`21:05.40`	`JeffM2501`	`then there ya go :)`
`21:05.46`	`JeffM2501`	`they are not events`
`21:05.53`	`JeffM2501`	`you don't have any callbacks or hooks into them`
`21:05.57`	`JeffM2501`	`tho I should add that`
`21:06.02`	`JeffM2501`	`so you can set them, and leave them`
`21:06.08`	`RPG_`	`...to die`
`21:06.09`	`JeffM2501`	`really you shoudl only set them if they don't exist tho`
`21:06.14`	`RPG_`	`yep`
`21:06.21`	`JeffM2501`	`they may not die, they MAY be in the vars file`
`21:07.12`	`RPG_`	`oh`
`21:07.30`	`JeffM2501`	`your plugin isn't the only one who can make and set them :)`
`21:07.35`	`RPG_`	`heh`
`21:07.49`	`RPG_`	`so there is no "error proof" way to have your own vars`
`21:08.04`	`RPG_`	`because if you register them, and someone puts it in their vars file, something bad will happen`
`21:08.19`	`JeffM2501`	`if you are looking for error proof, then plugins are not what you want to be doing`
`21:08.21`	`RPG_`	`if you don't set it in the plugin, and the vars file doesn't set it , it doesn' texit`
`21:08.31`	`JeffM2501`	`RPG_, do them yourself, in your own config`
`21:08.54`	`RPG_`	`i gotta look at the BZFS config parser, 'cause i'm clueless on how to make one`
`21:10.35`	`JeffM2501`	`RPG_, why use bzdb?`
`21:10.58`	`RPG_`	`so people can /set wether they want people to join a match while ons is in progress`
`21:11.05`	`RPG_`	`people ~= admins`
`21:11.14`	`JeffM2501`	`then they will never be your own vars`
`21:11.23`	`JeffM2501`	`as soon as you hook into the /set system, other stuff can happen`
`21:11.33`	`RPG_`	`other stuff.... like crashes stuff?`
`21:11.37`	`JeffM2501`	`if you truely want them to be yours, then make your own /set command`
`21:11.41`	`JeffM2501`	`like the vars file`
`21:11.44`	`JeffM2501`	`other plugins`
`21:11.49`	`RPG_`	`as long as it's there`
`21:11.50`	`JeffM2501`	`config files`
`21:11.57`	`RPG_`	`i was going for user-friendly`
`21:12.10`	`JeffM2501`	`then you have to deal with the fact that they can and will come from more then your plugin`
`21:12.13`	`JeffM2501`	`it's part of the deal`
`21:12.25`	`RPG_`	`yep`
`21:12.27`	`JeffM2501`	`just only set it, if it dosnt' exist`
`21:12.30`	`JeffM2501`	`and you'll be good`
`21:12.54`	`JeffM2501`	`man, scorereset is all jacked up`
`21:13.16`	`RPG_`	`there is no API function that checks if an entry exists`
`21:13.31`	`RPG_`	`when there is, i'll addit`
`21:13.34`	`JeffM2501`	`bz_BZDBItemExists`
`21:13.54`	`RPG_`	`hah`
`21:13.56`	`RPG_`	`passed right by it`
`21:14.12`	`JeffM2501`	`I did all the functions you should need`
`21:14.19`	`RPG_`	`cool`
`21:16.02`	`RPG_`	`const char* variable; must your variable contain a leading underscore, or does BZFS add the leading underscore automatically?`
`21:16.06`	`*** join/#bzflag a_monkey (n=elmunky@user-0can33s.cable.mindspring.com)`
`21:17.25`	`JeffM2501`	`not all variables have _`
`21:17.31`	`JeffM2501`	`it is just a convention`
`21:17.31`	`RPG_`	`k`
`21:17.35`	`JeffM2501`	`this is C`
`21:17.38`	`RPG_`	`"user vriendly"`
`21:17.44`	`JeffM2501`	`you have to tell it exactly what to do`
`21:17.51`	`JeffM2501`	`just like in bzfs`
`21:18.16`	`JeffM2501`	`you are a plugin, you are not a user`
`21:18.20`	`a_monkey`	`wth....`
`21:18.21`	`JeffM2501`	`you are a developer`
`21:18.55`	`RPG_`	`JeffM2501: you are a plugin, you are not a user`
`21:18.55`	`RPG_`	`that would make a good signature quite`
`21:18.58`	`RPG_`	`*quote`
`21:19.00`	`a_monkey`	`i updated my cvs bzflag dir, and when i typed "make", it ran autogen.sh and the configure script.`
`21:19.15`	`a_monkey`	`is it s'posed to do that? :P`
`21:19.19`	`JeffM2501`	`when they change`
`21:19.34`	`a_monkey`	`oh`
`21:19.49`	`JeffM2501`	`bahh, resetscore won't work....`
`21:21.11`	`JeffM2501`	`client still trys to handle it's own score :(`
`21:21.41`	`JeffM2501`	`learner, do you know if the client knows it's own userID?`
`21:26.03`	`a_monkey`	`i have a question: ya know how how i can bind keys to actions w/ bzflag? well if i get the mighty mouse, can i bind the third and fourth mouse buttons with bz actions?`
`21:26.17`	`RPG_`	`probably`
`21:26.23`	`a_monkey`	`can bzflag recognize the mighty mouse's third and fourth buttons in other word`
`21:26.24`	`a_monkey`	`s`
`21:26.45`	`a_monkey`	`if anybody has the mighty mouse, try it out and let me know if it works. :)`
`21:26.46`	`RPG_`	`never had a 4 button mouse, but just assign the 4th button to a command in the "Input Devices" option screen`
`21:26.54`	`RPG_`	`you have the power to try it`
`21:27.06`	`a_monkey`	`i don't have the mighty mouse (yet)`
`21:27.08`	`RPG_`	`oh`
`21:27.50`	`RPG_`	`JeffM: do you have an already-zipped bzfs lib and ibnary? if not, i'll wait`
`21:28.06`	`RPG_`	`anxious to test out /set variable`
`21:29.49`	`zoly`	`is any of you bzflag coryfees who is not actively involved in a team of the new adrenaline league willing to serve as referee for entering match results ?`
`21:30.05`	`RPG_`	`~coryfee`
`21:30.17`	`RPG_`	`~dict coryfee`
`21:30.32`	`RPG_`	`i can be a ref`
`21:30.36`	`RPG_`	`do you have software?`
`21:30.56`	`zoly`	`great. everything is installed. you only need to register`
`21:31.03`	`RPG_`	`URL?`
`21:31.04`	`zoly`	`adrenaline.l-aim.de`
`21:31.21`	`RPG_`	`funky greenb`
`21:31.41`	`RPG_`	`i'm in`
`21:32.17`	`RPG_`	`heh, need a plugin to automatically ref matches?`
`21:32.25`	`RPG_`	`i'm developing one for the mofo league`
`21:32.33`	`zoly`	`you're referee now`
`21:32.40`	`RPG_`	`koolio`
`21:32.52`	`zoly`	`tropican mentioned it. may be useful indeed`
`21:33.01`	`zoly`	`thank you RPG`
`21:33.05`	`RPG_`	`np`
`21:33.16`	`zoly`	`i'll update the FAQ`
`21:33.49`	`zoly`	`done`
`21:33.57`	`RPG_`	`have you seen the mofo league softwaer?`
`21:34.09`	`*** join/#bzflag CBG (n=CBG@cpc2-stme1-5-1-cust130.cdif.cable.ntl.com)`
`21:34.44`	`zoly`	`no. but i wasn't me to install the league software. verdo-x did. i only permanently redirect to his virtual host`
`21:35.01`	`zoly`	`i'm running the bzflag servers`
`21:35.02`	`RPG_`	`i modded the mofo league software to add some new featuers`
`21:35.13`	`meacan`	`zoly: you guys should relaly consider making the colors abit less bright. I get a headacke if i spend to much time there (no offence). An alternative colorscheme would be nice :)`
`21:35.30`	`RPG_`	`fine for me`
`21:35.30`	`zoly`	`meacan: has been set darker already :)`
`21:36.50`	`CBG`	`lol. set it more darker! :P`
`21:36.53`	`meacan`	`zoly: ok. But.. well. I would probably either change the tone of some of the colors or change the colors to get more variation.. (not that i master it)`
`21:37.27`	`meacan`	`but then again, i've failed the test to register myself there :)`
`21:37.31`	`RPG_`	`on the menu, you're missing the link for news`
`21:37.32`	`RPG_`	`and the link for contact`
`21:37.37`	`RPG_`	`and the link for rules`
`21:38.27`	`CBG`	`and the link for "how to make $$$ fast"... :/`
`21:38.54`	`RPG_`	`lol`
`21:38.56`	`RPG_`	`~CBG++`
`21:40.20`	`CBG`	`Sorry RPG_, I missed that...`
`21:40.25`	`silverfox`	`is there a way to message ibot privately to get it to say something publicly (in channel)?`
`21:40.28`	`RPG_`	`~karma CBG`
`21:40.28`	`ibot`	`cbg has karma of 1`
`21:40.34`	`CBG`	`Could someone repeat what RPG_ said, please?`
`21:40.43`	`RPG_`	`CBG: and the link for "how to make $$$ fast"... :/`
`21:40.43`	`RPG_`	`RPG_: lol`
`21:40.43`	`RPG_`	`RPG_: ~CBG++`
`21:40.45`	`CBG`	`silverfox: I don't believe so.`
`21:40.58`	`RPG_`	`~say I agree with CBG`
`21:40.58`	`ibot`	`I agree with CBG`
`21:41.39`	`*** join/#bzflag orchid (n=bzgirl@unaffiliated/orchid)`
`21:41.39`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+v orchid] by ChanServ`
`21:41.49`	`zoly`	`meacan: nor do i. there's a thread about the color in the forum. seems to be acceptable for users now`
`21:42.06`	`CBG`	`morning, orchid.`
`21:42.11`	`RPG_`	`sup`
`21:42.14`	`zoly`	`you may state different opinion there`
`21:42.33`	`CBG`	`<RPG_> "sup" - how old are you again? :P`
`21:42.36`	`meacan`	`zoly: did you setup the site yourself, or did meno guide you?`
`21:42.36`	`orchid`	`hello`
`21:42.45`	`RPG_`	`its my universal greeting`
`21:42.48`	`zoly`	`meacan: verdo-x has set it up`
`21:42.58`	`zoly`	`no guidance`
`21:43.05`	`meacan`	`cool`
`21:43.07`	`RPG_`	`hi/hello/good morning just don't work`
`21:43.09`	`zoly`	`but verdo fed back the patches he made to the software`
`21:43.09`	`a_monkey`	`can you get ibot to say something in #bzflag by private messaging him?`
`21:43.30`	`RPG_`	`i don't believe so`
`21:43.31`	`CBG`	`zoly: but that (posting a different view on the forum) would require registering, which one cannot do due to the limited ammount of time one can spend on a site with such a color scheme. :)`
`21:43.38`	`CBG`	`a_monkey: no.`
`21:43.40`	`meacan`	`zoly: didnt realize that, better check sf then :)`
`21:43.47`	`a_monkey`	`that'd be neat`
`21:43.52`	`a_monkey`	`but, oh wel`
`21:43.55`	`meacan`	`yay, my plugin semiworks :)`
`21:43.57`	`a_monkey`	`s/wel/well`
`21:44.05`	`JeffM2501`	`semi?`
`21:44.11`	`zoly`	`cbg, well, if time is too limited to register, surely the color doesn't matter`
`21:44.25`	`CBG`	`zoly: its the color that is limiting the time. :P`
`21:44.54`	`zoly`	`sound like a type of logic which is surpassing my understanding`
`21:45.04`	`meacan`	`JeffM2501, nothing related to api problems. Just empty holes in the code that i need to make before it works properly`
`21:45.22`	`JeffM2501`	`heh`
`21:45.28`	`JeffM2501`	`// do stuff here`
`21:45.30`	`RPG_`	`voids in the code`
`21:45.30`	`meacan`	`zoly: you know where the changed stuff is?`
`21:45.38`	`meacan`	`exactly :)`
`21:45.40`	`CBG`	`zoly: only joking. :) I would sign up if I wasnt so damn busy with everything at this point in my life. :)`
`21:47.02`	`zoly`	`meacan: passed along to menotume by verdo-x through jabber. no idea to what extend.`
`21:47.09`	`JeffM2501`	`anyone know how hard it is to run a dns server?`
`21:47.18`	`zoly`	`CGB, you have registered aready.`
`21:47.32`	`RPG_`	`probably harder then trying to get tech support from microsfot`
`21:47.35`	`meacan`	`JeffM2501: its pretty easy`
`21:47.40`	`zoly`	`on august 10`
`21:47.42`	`JeffM2501`	`what is needed?`
`21:47.51`	`RPG_`	`1 DNS server`
`21:47.51`	`RPG_`	`1 capable human`
`21:48.16`	`RPG_`	`that was too hard to just pass upl....`
`21:48.21`	`zoly`	`cbg, you registered to tell us how difficult all is going to be`
`21:48.22`	`JeffM2501`	`RPG_, please`
`21:48.29`	`CBG`	`zoly: hah, see? I am so busy I forget such little things :)`
`21:48.38`	`zoly`	`cbg and how long it would take us to get it running`
`21:48.40`	`meacan`	`JeffM2501: i use bind for unix environment. And thats it. Having a backup dns is nice tho, in case of troubles`
`21:48.58`	`CBG`	`zoly: I thought I did that on the bzbb...`
`21:49.00`	`zoly`	`that was 1 hour before verdo-x announced that the site was runnng`
`21:49.01`	`JeffM2501`	`how do I tell a registrar that I am the dns server?`
`21:49.25`	`JeffM2501`	`I am looking at geting a new domain name, and was wondering if I could host my own dns, rather then pay no-ip.com`
`21:49.27`	`zoly`	`cbg, you might be right`
`21:49.40`	`JeffM2501`	`or maybe just glom onto somones existing server :)`
`21:49.41`	`zoly`	`cbg, but you are registered nevertheless`
`21:49.44`	`*** join/#bzflag \|zongo\| (n=zongo@fl-71-0-156-54.dyn.sprint-hsd.net)`
`21:49.45`	`meacan`	`JeffM2501: yes. if you perform a whois on a domain you can see which dns that handles dns queries.`
`21:49.51`	`CBG`	`zoly: eh, ok :)`
`21:50.01`	`TD-Linux`	`there ought to be a good tutorial on doing that, but you have to register at a dns list so that clients know you are a dns server`
`21:50.15`	`meacan`	`JeffM2501: Check out zoneedit.com if you consider other hosting it`
`21:50.25`	`JeffM2501`	`maybe I'd just bum a dns off of learner`
`21:50.33`	`TD-Linux`	`dyndns.com is good too, they are really cheap, but still cost money`
`21:50.45`	`TD-Linux`	`typo: dyndns.org`
`21:50.47`	`JeffM2501`	`TD-Linux, I allready have no-ip.com`
`21:50.55`	`TD-Linux`	`ok`
`21:50.57`	`JeffM2501`	`for this domain I just need a website`
`21:51.02`	`JeffM2501`	`not a dynamic system like I do for baka`
`21:51.27`	`meacan`	`TD-Linux: zoneedit is free (there is some limitations but most private people wont exceed these limits)`
`21:51.40`	`TD-Linux`	`that sounds good`
`21:51.42`	`meacan`	`.. and then you buy addon services if one likes`
`21:52.42`	`TD-Linux`	`does zoneedit give you a domain name, or does it give you a subdomain, like x.zoneedit.com or zoneedit.com/x`
`21:53.14`	`meacan`	`TD-Linux: zoneedit.com is a dns services, not a domainprovider/url-forwarder`
`21:53.34`	`TD-Linux`	`oops, /me got them confused`
`21:55.03`	`meacan`	`TD-Linux: domain name service`
`21:55.27`	`CBG`	`not Domain Name Servers?`
`21:55.40`	`RPG_`	`~dict DNS`
`21:55.52`	`RPG_`	`there we go`
`21:55.55`	`CBG`	`:/`
`21:56.23`	`meacan`	`i think its system`
`21:57.34`	`CBG`	`usually the IP addresses / domains of your host, towards which you point your domain...?`
`22:00.06`	`JeffM2501`	`TD-Linux, there are many companys that do it`
`22:00.11`	`JeffM2501`	`I trust no-ip more then dyna`
`22:00.23`	`JeffM2501`	`they generaly update faster`
`22:00.41`	`JeffM2501`	`tho dyna has hooks into many routers`
`22:00.46`	`TD-Linux`	`well, the dynamic dns updater is built into my linksys router, and they suggest dyndns, only reason I trust it`
`22:00.56`	`zoly`	`i prefer own name servers`
`22:00.58`	`RPG_`	`hey anyone know whwat this means?`
`22:00.58`	`RPG_`	`g:\Programs\Visual Studio C++\Vc7\include\xutility(1260) : error C2995: 'const comparable &std::min(const comparable &,const comparable &)' : template function has already been defined`
`22:01.02`	`JeffM2501`	`and linksys blows :)`
`22:01.11`	`JeffM2501`	`RPG_, it means you have old code`
`22:01.18`	`meacan`	`zoly: you got a server of you own?`
`22:01.22`	`zoly`	`2`
`22:01.28`	`RPG_`	`old BZFS code or old SDK code?`
`22:01.29`	`zoly`	`need two dns`
`22:01.37`	`JeffM2501`	`RPG_, old bzflag code`
`22:01.45`	`RPG_`	`no i was compiling my plugin`
`22:01.47`	`meacan`	`zoly: home? or at some hostingcenter?`
`22:01.52`	`zoly`	`server farm`
`22:01.56`	`CBG`	`TD-Linux: email me a slice! :)`
`22:02.02`	`meacan`	`zoly: where? is it good?`
`22:02.05`	`JeffM2501`	`RPG_, then you are using old code that is including common.h`
`22:02.14`	`ToughShooter`	`!weather EDDF`
`22:02.16`	`TheLastSpartan`	`ToughShooter: The current temperature in Frankfurt/main, Germany is 64�F (11:20 PM CEST on August 16, 2005). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 77%. Dew Point: 57�F. Wind: NNE at 12 mph (18 km/h). Pressure: 30.18 in (1022 hPa).`
`22:02.21`	`JeffM2501`	`probably thru textUtils`
`22:02.23`	`zoly`	`germany, nuernberg. quite good, not too expensive.`
`22:02.24`	`RPG_`	`i'll wait`
`22:02.24`	`meacan`	`zoly: i use one too, but my payment isnt arriving and they dosnt respond to my emails anymore :(`
`22:02.27`	`RPG_`	`and thru bzfsAPI.h`
`22:02.38`	`CBG`	`Toughshooter, try /msg TheLastSpartan weather EDDF ;)`
`22:02.38`	`JeffM2501`	`bzfsAPI no longer includes common`
`22:02.47`	`RPG_`	`:grumble: anon cvs... :/groumble:`
`22:02.54`	`zoly`	`500 gbyte/month traffic included in base fee.`
`22:02.55`	`ToughShooter`	`CBG: I try to demonstrate Jeff a bug`
`22:03.05`	`CBG`	`ToughShooter: ahh, ok :)`
`22:03.09`	`meacan`	`zoly: how much is that? and is it our own server?`
`22:03.16`	`zoly`	`250 gb hard disk, amd 3000 cpu. 1 gb ram. 100 mbit up/down`
`22:03.17`	`JeffM2501`	`ToughShooter, so what, we've been over it before`
`22:03.18`	`meacan`	`zoly: i mean the hardware - did you provide it?`
`22:03.22`	`JeffM2501`	`it's a bug in the supybot code`
`22:03.26`	`zoly`	`no, leased`
`22:03.28`	`JeffM2501`	`I didn't make, and I'm not goona fix it`
`22:03.33`	`zoly`	`included in basic fee`
`22:03.43`	`JeffM2501`	`the bot is not here to provide you with dead accurate times on weather`
`22:03.45`	`meacan`	`zoly: what is the fee? got an url?`
`22:03.53`	`ToughShooter`	`JeffM2501: I just want to give some proof`
`22:03.57`	`zoly`	`39 E which is a bit less then 50 $/m`
`22:04.03`	`JeffM2501`	`you didn't think I belived you?`
`22:04.07`	`zoly`	`39.90 i.e. 40 actually`
`22:04.39`	`zoly`	`yes, "dedicated" or "root" server. i.e. sole user.`
`22:04.59`	`zoly`	`running debian linux`
`22:05.11`	`ToughShooter`	`I do but a piece of proof is always nice to have`
`22:05.50`	`JeffM2501`	`it's not going to change anything`
`22:05.57`	`zoly`	`meacan: url is http://www.hetzner.org/ or http://www.hetzner.de`
`22:06.05`	`meacan`	`zoly: Got an url? My current host isnt responding (hexonet.net)`
`22:06.09`	`meacan`	`:)`
`22:06.15`	`JeffM2501`	`may end up just killing the bot soon anyway`
`22:06.50`	`zoly`	`connection is good. player tend to have lowest lag here, compared to other servers.`
`22:06.56`	`meacan`	`urgh, too germna :}`
`22:07.18`	`zoly`	`i have been probing players about their lag on other servers, as comparison`
`22:07.51`	`meacan`	`zoly: website is on the same server as you bzflag?`
`22:10.01`	`zoly`	`no.`
`22:10.36`	`meacan`	`zoly: whats the server ? i like to try (im located in denmark)`
`22:10.50`	`zoly`	`only dns2, and a web server which permanently redirect to the server where the league forum is actually on`
`22:10.58`	`zoly`	`what server ? bzflag ?`
`22:11.02`	`meacan`	`yes`
`22:11.14`	`zoly`	`all adrenalines. there are only 2 of them public`
`22:11.18`	`*** part/#bzflag zoly (n=l@p549DC90F.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`22:11.48`	`*** join/#bzflag zoly (n=l@p549DC90F.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`22:12.00`	`zoly`	`sry`
`22:13.27`	`zoly`	`adrenaline.l-aim.de:5154 for example`
`22:14.11`	`ToughShooter`	`zoly: wow, it's really like viper but viper is less than 2 km physically away from me`
`22:17.01`	`zoly`	`ToughShooter: where are you ?`
`22:17.07`	`*** part/#bzflag \|zongo\| (n=zongo@fl-71-0-156-54.dyn.sprint-hsd.net)`
`22:17.08`	`ToughShooter`	`49ms first hop (I always have this because of an ADSL connection with interleaving and only 4 ms get added until it reaches your server`
`22:17.40`	`ToughShooter`	`zoly: Look at my weather query above ;)`
`22:17.48`	`zoly`	`servers are located in nuernberg`
`22:18.36`	`*** join/#bzflag Meteorite (n=A@adsl-69-109-16-109.dsl.snlo01.pacbell.net)`
`22:18.54`	`ToughShooter`	`Dunno how far this is away`
`22:19.06`	`zoly`	`bavaria, germany`
`22:20.21`	`Pimpi`	`Franken`
`22:23.13`	`ToughShooter`	`!weather EDDF`
`22:23.16`	`TheLastSpartan`	`ToughShooter: The current temperature in Frankfurt/main, Germany is 62�F (12:00 AM CEST on August 17, 2005). Conditions: Partly Cloudy. Humidity: 73%. Dew Point: 55�F. Pressure: 30.18 in (1022 hPa). Visibility: 16.0 miles (25.0 kilometers). UV: 0 out of 16`
`22:23.38`	`ToughShooter`	`It gets midday very quick :/`
`22:23.49`	`Meteorite`	`How'd you do that ToughShooter?`
`22:24.06`	`ToughShooter`	`Meteorite: Do what?`
`22:24.18`	`Meteorite`	`Get the weather.`
`22:25.26`	`ToughShooter`	`priv. message TheLastSpartan. "help weather" is a good start`
`22:25.40`	`Meteorite`	`Thanks.`
`22:26.10`	`Meteorite`	`Really new to this IRC. :)`
`22:26.21`	`*** part/#bzflag Meteorite (n=A@adsl-69-109-16-109.dsl.snlo01.pacbell.net)`
`22:27.09`	`*** join/#bzflag Meteorite (n=A@adsl-69-109-16-109.dsl.snlo01.pacbell.net)`
`22:28.36`	`*** part/#bzflag Meteorite (n=A@adsl-69-109-16-109.dsl.snlo01.pacbell.net)`
`22:39.20`	`menotume`	`~seen Tupone`
`22:39.23`	`ibot`	`tupone <n=Tupone@pdpc/supporter/active/Tupone> was last seen on IRC in channel #bzflag, 1d 11h 29m 57s ago, saying: 'cu'.`
`22:39.31`	`menotume`	`!seen Tupone`
`22:39.31`	`TheLastSpartan`	`menotume: Tupone was last seen here 1 day, 11 hours, 30 minutes, and 4 seconds ago saying: <Tupone> cu`
`22:39.35`	`menotume`	`nhmm`
`22:45.14`	`TD-Linux`	`that's odd, I can't make shot range shorter`
`22:49.15`	`RPG_away`	`!seen RPG_`
`22:49.15`	`TheLastSpartan`	`RPG_away: RPG_ was last seen here 46 minutes and 28 seconds ago saying: <RPG_> :grumble: anon cvs... :/groumble:`
`22:49.26`	`RPG_away`	`~seen RPG_`
`22:49.26`	`ibot`	`rpg_ <n=G-bus@c-24-15-87-171.hsd1.il.comcast.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #bzflag, 46m 39s ago, saying: ':grumble: anon cvs... :/groumble:'.`
`22:49.27`	`*** join/#bzflag CBG (n=CBG@cpc2-stme1-5-1-cust130.cdif.cable.ntl.com)`
`22:49.32`	`RPG_away`	`good game`
`22:49.49`	`CBG`	`RPG_away, not really...`
`22:49.59`	`CBG`	`RPG_, not really...`
`22:50.10`	`RPG_`	`meh`
`22:50.14`	`CBG`	`Teamkillers, rejoiners, server crash...`
`22:50.14`	`RPG_`	`we were tanking at the end`
`22:50.16`	`RPG_`	`lol`
`22:50.33`	`RPG_`	`back to making microwave dinner`
`22:50.58`	`CBG`	`lol`
`22:51.03`	`blast007`	`TD-Linux: which variable were you changing?`
`22:53.18`	`TD-Linux`	`nvm, fixed shot range problem`
`22:53.20`	`*** join/#bzflag wegstar (n=foo@allegro/user/wegstar)`
`22:53.25`	`*** join/#bzflag wizart (n=wizart@dsl-084-058-161-075.arcor-ip.net)`
`22:53.25`	`TD-Linux`	`I was changing _shotRange`
`22:53.29`	`TD-Linux`	`it took a while to apply`
`22:53.35`	`blast007`	`ah, ok`
`22:53.47`	`TD-Linux`	`wait a minute, it doesn't always work`
`22:54.24`	`blast007`	`changing _shotRange should affect the _reloadTime`
`22:54.35`	`CBG`	`wegstar: that was fast. :)`
`22:54.43`	`wegstar`	`?`
`22:54.44`	`*** join/#bzflag sussi (i=rak64@217-68-177-108.cable.primacom.net)`
`22:54.45`	`TD-Linux`	`ok`
`23:02.26`	`*** part/#bzflag RPG_away (n=G-bus@c-24-15-87-171.hsd1.il.comcast.net)`
`23:04.43`	`*** join/#bzflag Twingy (n=justin@pcp0011647505pcs.aberdn01.md.comcast.net)`
`23:10.29`	`uso_w`	`JeffM2501: although i prefer removing wings (wings should not be a flag but a feature to switch globally to enable "winged" games)`
`23:10.36`	`uso_w`	`i think you are on the right way with balancing it (no new counter flag with new problems please!)`
`23:10.44`	`uso_w`	`do you have 2 minutes for an idea regarding wings?`
`23:11.41`	`wegstar`	`hmm. wings suck so much now that they should might as well remove it..`
`23:12.12`	`CBG`	`It depends on its settings and the server...`
`23:12.27`	`CBG`	`Secretplace has it balanced fairly well...`
`23:12.29`	`JeffM2501`	`sure`
`23:12.37`	`uso_w`	`slowing movement in air down is a good start, but one essential point gets lost: a fix for the lag problem as Grumbler mentioned`
`23:12.48`	`JeffM2501`	`but we can't really change anything in 2.0.x, unless it's an existin variable default`
`23:13.35`	`uso_w`	`i must not be fixed in 2.0.x ...`
`23:13.38`	`JeffM2501`	`the network stuff will be reevaluated in 2.1.x`
`23:13.41`	`uso_w`	`you hardly can fight a wing player in air as he can control it's flight, you can not, so you mainly try to attack it on landing`
`23:13.50`	`uso_w`	`but it's hard to predict the landing point as WG can manoeuvre in the air`
`23:13.59`	`uso_w`	`even worse and for me the major problem with wings if wingsjumpcount is set (as on viper or silvercat) the player can even decide to land or not`
`23:14.04`	`uso_w`	`so your chance to attack a WG on ground is very small, if lag comes along it's nearly zero`
`23:14.15`	`uso_w`	`that's why there should be a compensation, a small penalty on ground, a kind of reload or recreation phase`
`23:14.24`	`uso_w`	`a winged tank should not be able to jump (and fly) for a small time after landing`
`23:14.30`	`uso_w`	`this time could depend on the number of flaps the player have done, the longer the flight the longer the recreation :)`
`23:14.36`	`JeffM2501`	`2.0.4 will have some defaults changed to make them more slugish in the air`
`23:14.43`	`uso_w`	`this would give "normal" players a better chance to dodge down a winged player and helps with lag too`
`23:14.43`	`wegstar`	`nooo!!!`
`23:14.51`	`CBG`	`Something like 1-3 jumps, with some momentum usually is fair..`
`23:15.00`	`JeffM2501`	`but the server ops can allways change it`
`23:15.07`	`JeffM2501`	`no mater what we do the server ops can allways change it`
`23:15.16`	`uso_w`	`they always can change all settings`
`23:15.24`	`uso_w`	`but for the dafault`
`23:15.29`	`uso_w`	`default`
`23:15.38`	`JeffM2501`	`we made the default more slugish now`
`23:15.43`	`JeffM2501`	`they turn slower in air, and move slower`
`23:15.49`	`JeffM2501`	`I think`
`23:15.52`	`JeffM2501`	`trepan did it`
`23:15.58`	`JeffM2501`	`with the vars he had`
`23:15.59`	`JeffM2501`	`try it out`
`23:16.04`	`uso_w`	`but for me the point is not the behaviour in air`
`23:16.15`	`JeffM2501`	`we don't have a way to make them slower on the ground`
`23:16.19`	`JeffM2501`	`not in the current version`
`23:16.32`	`uso_w`	`the problem is the short landing, firing, jumping again`
`23:16.56`	`uso_w`	`i know, this requires changes in the client`
`23:16.57`	`CBG`	`That would be cool, if you could also hinder the tanks movement on the ground...`
`23:17.44`	`uso_w`	`making wings slower in air gives you more chances hitting them while jumping, but does not help with lag`
`23:17.57`	`CBG`	`lag?`
`23:19.04`	`uso_w`	`on which server are the changed settings from trepan?`
`23:20.01`	`blast007`	`I recall there was something reverted about the settings`
`23:20.11`	`uso_w`	`winged tanks should not be slower on ground, they only should not be able to jump for a short time after they are landed`
`23:20.31`	`uso_w`	`in cvs the defaults were reverted`
`23:21.10`	`uso_w`	`blast007: but it could be set on a server anyway`
`23:21.32`	`blast007`	`the settings could be on a server anyway, cuz their just BZDB vars`
`23:21.41`	`blast007`	`they're*`
`23:22.14`	`uso_w`	`so it would be nice to have them set on a server with some players to test it`
`23:30.40`	*** join/#bzflag blast007` (n=blast007@24-196-92-143.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
`23:33.36`	`*** join/#bzflag triclops (n=triclops@c220-239-40-105.rivrw7.nsw.optusnet.com.au)`
`23:34.32`	`JeffM2501`	`uso_w, what is the "lag" problem?`
`23:34.38`	`JeffM2501`	`just the fact that they are all jumpy in the air?`
`23:35.44`	`JeffM2501`	`and I don't think there are any vars that chnage how the wings tanks behaves on the ground`
`23:35.52`	`JeffM2501`	`the vars arn't backawards, they just arn't the ones you need/want`
`23:38.39`	`uso_w`	`with wings flag (and a low wingjumpcount) you can sit on a box, "jump" down to ground, fire and immediatly jump back to a box`
`23:38.57`	`JeffM2501`	`and that is "lag"?`
`23:39.08`	`uso_w`	`with some lag the short time you are on ground is very difficult to aim and time`
`23:39.23`	`JeffM2501`	`so the problem isn't lag`
`23:39.28`	`JeffM2501`	`it's that you want a rejump delay`
`23:39.30`	`uso_w`	`by other tanks`
`23:40.00`	`uso_w`	`yes, it's easier than to hit`
`23:40.14`	`blast007`	`maybe instead of jumps, it could be a limited amount of thruster fuel ;)`
`23:40.22`	`JeffM2501`	`blast007, too complex`
`23:40.27`	`blast007`	`hehe, k`
`23:40.33`	`uso_w`	`but it's also easier with lag as you only have to stray bullets in xy-plane`
`23:40.55`	`blast007`	`then maybe just the "adding to the velocity" thing that was discussed before`
`23:40.57`	`JeffM2501`	`a rejump, vars for on ground speed, and ability to make the jump adjust your deltaV should make it more playable`
`23:41.12`	`uso_w`	`blast007: yeah, woulb be an other implementation possibility`
`23:41.14`	`JeffM2501`	`uso_w, well the game is a 2d game`
`23:41.33`	`JeffM2501`	`I'd do all 3 of those, and make them vars`
`23:41.38`	`JeffM2501`	`then it could be tweaked to needs`
`23:41.39`	`uso_w`	`yes, but 2.5d with wings ;)`
`23:41.48`	`JeffM2501`	`jump made it 2.5d`
`23:41.58`	`CBG`	`:/`
`23:42.10`	`uso_w`	`not really, as landing point is predictable (without wings)`
`23:42.21`	`JeffM2501`	`it still added a bit more dimension`
`23:42.38`	`JeffM2501`	`the fact that it was "easy" dosn't make it any less of a dimenstion`
`23:42.41`	`CBG`	`it added a 3rd for movement,`
`23:42.42`	`JeffM2501`	`it just means you like it better`
`23:42.44`	`uso_w`	`it's more a 2d with short gaming pauses :)`
`23:43.01`	`CBG`	`althought the 3rd was already there in theory as nothing was "flat"...`
`23:43.05`	`JeffM2501`	`CBG, you don't have full controll in the z axis, just limited.`
`23:43.31`	`CBG`	`There is still a 3rd D. Even if you dont have 100% control of movment in it...`
`23:44.03`	`JeffM2501`	`yes the world is 3d`
`23:44.13`	`JeffM2501`	`but the "GAME" part is 2d limited Z`
`23:45.27`	`uso_w`	`anyway, i like the idea of a recreation phase after a long, arduous flight :)`
`23:45.40`	`JeffM2501`	`just call it cooldown`
`23:45.45`	`uso_w`	`has to be only half a second or a second`
`23:45.52`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`23:45.55`	`JeffM2501`	`rejump time`
`23:46.00`	`JeffM2501`	`for wings and non wings`
`23:46.10`	`uso_w`	`yeah, even better word`
`23:46.10`	`JeffM2501`	`seperate vars`
`23:46.20`	`CBG`	`not for nonwings. :(`
`23:46.22`	`JeffM2501`	`the word is not the important part`
`23:46.32`	`CBG`	`only for WG! please...`
`23:46.35`	`blast007`	`CBG: why not?`
`23:46.35`	`JeffM2501`	`CBG, why not? it's just a setting, more options is better`
`23:46.45`	`JeffM2501`	`dosn't mean you have to use it`
`23:46.49`	`JeffM2501`	`or change it`
`23:46.50`	`CBG`	`but, dont have it on for nonWG as default.`
`23:46.50`	`JeffM2501`	`it's just there`
`23:47.04`	`JeffM2501`	`CBG, I didn't say anything about changing the default for non wg`
`23:47.12`	`uso_w`	`but default for nonwings should be zero`
`23:47.16`	`JeffM2501`	`I just said adding a var so it could be set`
`23:47.17`	`CBG`	`Good. :)`
`23:47.30`	`uso_w`	`wings are in advantage in air, nonwings should be on ground`
`23:47.32`	`JeffM2501`	`the defaults would be set to what we have now`
`23:47.33`	`blast007`	`uso_w: I have those wings settings at my.box86.info:8000`
`23:48.16`	`uso_w`	`ok, i'll try it if i'm home, no direct routing here :(`
`23:48.22`	`JeffM2501`	`all we have to do is get 2.0.4 out the door`
`23:48.22`	`blast007`	`k`
`23:48.34`	`JeffM2501`	`then we can break off 2.1.x and add stuff`
`23:49.10`	`uso_w`	`better break not too much :)`
`23:49.27`	`JeffM2501`	`you have to break eggs to make an omlette`
`23:50.34`	`uso_w`	`yeah, but it should stay an omlette, not getting a rice soup`
`23:50.45`	`JeffM2501`	`there are many types of omlets`
`23:50.50`	`uso_w`	`lol`
`23:51.05`	`blast007`	`darn, now I'm getting hungery`
`23:51.05`	`JeffM2501`	`everyone wants difrent stuff in there omlets`
`23:51.08`	`uso_w`	`clear answer of a developer :)`
`23:51.14`	`JeffM2501`	`who's to say ham is better then mushroom?`
`23:51.32`	`CBG`	`Ive always been too busy playing this darned addicting game!`
`23:52.01`	`uso_w`	`but if it's goinge to become a soup you should call it soup then, not omlette anymore`
`23:52.17`	`uso_w`	`and leave the omlette for the ones liking omlettes ;)`
`23:52.26`	`CBG`	`what soup?`
`23:52.27`	`JeffM2501`	`or we can lock down this omlet and it will never change, and make a new omlet and see who wants it`
`23:52.33`	`CBG`	`cream of chicken? tomato?`
`23:53.09`	`JeffM2501`	`what defines an omlet tho?`
`23:53.21`	`JeffM2501`	`at some point you add so much bread it becomes french toast`
`23:53.26`	`uso_w`	`the it used to be ... :)`
`23:53.37`	`CBG`	`french toast?`
`23:53.44`	`CBG`	`toast it toast, dude...`
`23:53.53`	`JeffM2501`	`ok then we say 2.0.4 is the last one`
`23:53.58`	`JeffM2501`	`the next thing isn't called bzflag then`
`23:54.09`	`CBG`	`how can it be french, unless it comes from that silly country over there...`
`23:54.14`	`uso_w`	`wow, that much chanhes for 2.1?`
`23:54.17`	`JeffM2501`	`if everyone wants it to stay still, why keep working on it?`
`23:54.21`	`uso_w`	`changes`
`23:54.24`	`JeffM2501`	`uso_w, you said you didn't want any changes`
`23:54.30`	`JeffM2501`	`you want us to leave it alone`
`23:54.43`	`JeffM2501`	`who's to say what changes are good or bad?`
`23:54.58`	`JeffM2501`	`games don't upgrade wll`
`23:54.58`	`CBG`	`The costomers are always right.`
`23:55.01`	`JeffM2501`	`they arn't applications`
`23:55.06`	`JeffM2501`	`they don't have customers`
`23:55.08`	`JeffM2501`	`they dont' have functions`
`23:55.18`	`JeffM2501`	`a game does not make any sort of document or do any work`
`23:55.19`	`uso_w`	`no no, i could have mushrooms or ham on the omlette, as long as the main is still the omlette`
`23:55.22`	`JeffM2501`	`it has no desired output`
`23:55.34`	`CBG`	`people play the game`
`23:55.38`	`JeffM2501`	`so what, what changes would you think would be "too much"`
`23:55.42`	`CBG`	`they will decide what changes were good and what was bad.`
`23:55.57`	`JeffM2501`	`CBG, exacty, all they do is look at it, it dosnt' really have a fixed specification of what it is supsoed to "do"`
`23:56.08`	`CBG`	`its not suppossed to do`
`23:56.14`	`CBG`	`it is suppossed to BE!`
`23:56.16`	`JeffM2501`	`so then I can change anything`
`23:56.17`	`uso_w`	`wings is a good example for it, enables completely different gameplay`
`23:56.21`	`CBG`	`Fun, enjoyable, entertaining!`
`23:56.30`	`CBG`	`(etc etc etc)`
`23:56.33`	`JeffM2501`	`CBG, porn is entertaining`
`23:56.42`	`CBG`	`It is that...`
`23:56.48`	`CBG`	`Sure, sounds good to me.`
`23:56.53`	`CBG`	`But others would disagree,`
`23:56.56`	`JeffM2501`	`but would sportchick agree`
`23:57.04`	`CBG`	`you would probably need some kinda vote ;)`
`23:57.10`	`JeffM2501`	`who is to say what features are right to keep it "bzflag"`
`23:57.21`	`CBG`	`The user-base as a whole...`
`23:57.24`	`JeffM2501`	`lets say I add a feature to fire off a one shot weapon and you can cary 3 of them`
`23:57.37`	`uso_w`	`but wouldnt change the gamplay, at least as they are not too big ;)`
`23:57.49`	`CBG`	`uso_w, true....`
`23:57.50`	`JeffM2501`	`CBG, really? they have have the power to make the devs do things?`
`23:57.55`	`CBG`	`but the bigger the better, right?`
`23:58.01`	`JeffM2501`	`define too big?`
`23:58.09`	`CBG`	`JeffM2501: why bother to make the game if nobody will play it anymore?`
`23:58.18`	`JeffM2501`	`CBG, somone will allways play it`
`23:58.23`	`CBG`	`JeffM2501: I would say much more than a DD is too big. :)`
`23:58.39`	`CBG`	`JeffM2501: but there is a stage where it is not worth it... like if only 5 people play...`
`23:58.41`	`JeffM2501`	`wings did not lower the playerbase`
`23:58.44`	`JeffM2501`	`it increased it`
`23:58.49`	`CBG`	`why watse your time making it for just those 5?`
`23:58.54`	`JeffM2501`	`so for all the hate a few people give it, peopl love that stuff`
`23:59.08`	`uso_w`	`do not know if it really were the wings`
`23:59.14`	`JeffM2501`	`no we don't`
`23:59.18`	`JeffM2501`	`but it's used on MANY servers`
`23:59.23`	`CBG`	`MANY!!!`
`23:59.24`	`JeffM2501`	`and with a jump count more then the default`
`23:59.27`	`uso_w`	`they probably dont influence it much`
`23:59.33`	`JeffM2501`	`so somone likes it`
`23:59.41`	`JeffM2501`	`because somone set it up that way`
`23:59.47`	`CBG`	`SOMEONE!!!`

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