irclog2html for #bzflag on 20050329

`00:00.13`	`JeffM2501`	`our system requires high levels of fung shue`
`00:00.20`	`JeffM2501`	`other games are not as forgiving`
`00:00.38`	`JeffM2501`	`could also be SDL`
`00:00.42`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`this is retarded`
`00:00.45`	`JeffM2501`	`your SDL may not be built with ATI`
`00:00.51`	`JeffM2501`	`and it could be failing`
`00:00.51`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`hmmm`
`00:01.00`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`that's true`
`00:01.00`	`JeffM2501`	`since by default we do an STL build`
`00:01.05`	`Chestal`	`hmm, I wouldn't even know how to force software rendering with the ATI drivers`
`00:01.07`	`JeffM2501`	`you could try an NON STL build`
`00:01.18`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`I built myself, how do I do NON STL`
`00:01.23`	`JeffM2501`	`the native X code is still there`
`00:01.31`	`JeffM2501`	`well in therry just remove STL`
`00:01.35`	`JeffM2501`	`and config should kick down`
`00:01.44`	`JeffM2501`	`there may be a --without_STL option`
`00:01.47`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`is this a config parameter?`
`00:01.47`	`JeffM2501`	`I am not a config wiz`
`00:01.52`	`JeffM2501`	`I think so`
`00:01.56`	`JeffM2501`	`but don't take my word`
`00:02.02`	`JeffM2501`	`I don't build with configs`
`00:02.23`	`JeffM2501`	`well unless I'm on the mac`
`00:02.37`	`Chestal`	`AFAIK all that SDL coudl do wrong is to choose a strange visual`
`00:02.55`	`JeffM2501`	`chestal, STL picks the pixel format diescriptor`
`00:02.59`	`JeffM2501`	`if it's linked with a bad GL`
`00:03.06`	`JeffM2501`	`it could cause the GL fucntions to fail`
`00:03.08`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`what is STL?`
`00:03.16`	`JeffM2501`	`and then STL would not be able to get us a context`
`00:03.20`	`Chestal`	`it's SDL`
`00:03.23`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`lol`
`00:03.29`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`that could have been a lot easier`
`00:03.39`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`so you think I should compile SDL against my GL?`
`00:03.48`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah my bad`
`00:03.57`	`JeffM2501`	`simplest thing would be to do a non SDL build`
`00:04.04`	`JeffM2501`	`or build your own SDL sure`
`00:04.04`	`Chestal`	`LorD: do you have more than one libGL.so on your system?`
`00:04.12`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`would that affect performance?`
`00:04.23`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`Yes, chestal. But I checked, and bzflag is linked with the right one`
`00:04.57`	`JeffM2501`	`SDL will make it's own GL calls to set up the context`
`00:05.03`	`JeffM2501`	`I'd make sure it's linked to the right one too`
`00:05.07`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`ill try without sdl`
`00:05.08`	`Chestal`	`that's still scary`
`00:05.17`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`how can I check how sdl is linked?`
`00:05.23`	`JeffM2501`	`domo`
`00:05.26`	`JeffM2501`	`dono`
`00:05.27`	`Chestal`	`yu shuld have /usr/X11R6/lib/libGL.so`
`00:05.33`	`Chestal`	`and everything else symlinked to there`
`00:05.38`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`I have that one`
`00:05.39`	`Chestal`	`or actualyl to ....so.1.2`
`00:05.50`	`cosmos`	`sport`
`00:05.50`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`but the proper one is the one for my ati driver`
`00:05.58`	`cosmos`	`is high karate kitty at 68.98.25.84`
`00:05.58`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`which is in a different directory`
`00:06.28`	`Chestal`	`I installed firegl driver as debian package here`
`00:06.36`	`Chestal`	`all apps are lniked against that libGL`
`00:06.42`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`same here`
`00:06.56`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`I checked glxgears, its linked to it`
`00:07.09`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`doesn't matter how, it works for EVERYTHING else`
`00:07.17`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`so ima try without sdl`
`00:07.51`	`JeffM2501`	`glxgrears should use direct GL init calls thru X, just like a non SDL build of BZ`
`00:08.03`	`JeffM2501`	`SDL was a new thing added for 2.0`
`00:08.15`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`then without sdl should work...but if I don't use sdl, will that cause trouble elsewhere?`
`00:08.17`	`Chestal`	`it's worth a try to check if it's SDL's fault somehow. Non-SDL on Linux is no longer well-supported, though`
`00:08.33`	`Chestal`	`I wouldn't count on everythign running smoothly`
`00:08.45`	`Chestal`	`but as a test it's ok`
`00:08.45`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`I bet ill end up compiling sdl against my libs`
`00:08.45`	`JeffM2501`	`what won't work ches?`
`00:08.52`	`JeffM2501`	`and why hasn't it been kept up?`
`00:09.00`	`Chestal`	`JeffM2501: the resizing hooks are probably messed up`
`00:09.03`	`Chestal`	`last tiem I checked they were`
`00:09.06`	`JeffM2501`	`ahh`
`00:09.09`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`You guys devs?`
`00:09.12`	`JeffM2501`	`poor native dev`
`00:09.16`	`JeffM2501`	`of sorts`
`00:09.26`	`Chestal`	`and withotu SDL, there's no switching to window mode etc.`
`00:09.33`	`JeffM2501`	`that is true`
`00:09.35`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`shoot I should have started my work a long time ago`
`00:09.41`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`been screwing with tux all day`
`00:09.58`	`Chestal`	`no support for non-OSS sound either`
`00:10.12`	`JeffM2501`	`that's the bigest thing SDL got ya all I think`
`00:10.24`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`One of those "On windows but don't want to be" people`
`00:10.26`	`JeffM2501`	`windows bins are non SDL so I forget that`
`00:10.53`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`Ugggh`
`00:11.11`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`I have been trying to switch to mono, but can't get the latest compiled`
`00:11.29`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`well, mono maybe but not monodevelop`
`00:12.01`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`Hows the cheating in 2.02`
`00:12.12`	`JeffM2501`	`diminished a bit`
`00:12.19`	`JeffM2501`	`can't ever get rid of all of it`
`00:12.27`	`JeffM2501`	`global reg helps keep em out`
`00:12.31`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`Hah. Poor netcode, is what it was`
`00:12.38`	`JeffM2501`	`well yeah`
`00:12.41`	`JeffM2501`	`it's a lan game`
`00:12.45`	`JeffM2501`	`from 14 yers ago`
`00:12.48`	`JeffM2501`	`what do you expect?`
`00:13.01`	`JeffM2501`	`gonna rewrite it for us?`
`00:13.06`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`I am not a cpp coder, but I managed (quite easily) to do all sorts of stuff)`
`00:13.14`	`JeffM2501`	`yes it's rather easy`
`00:13.17`	`JeffM2501`	`we all know that`
`00:13.20`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`mhm`
`00:13.33`	`JeffM2501`	`it's not an authoritive server`
`00:13.35`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`...the moment of truth gentlemen`
`00:13.37`	`JeffM2501`	`that would help much of it`
`00:13.42`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`true`
`00:13.54`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`as I have read, they need to make the netcode more modular`
`00:14.00`	`JeffM2501`	`but noone has the guts/time to rewrite it`
`00:14.07`	`JeffM2501`	`who is "they" ?`
`00:14.15`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`developers in general`
`00:14.25`	`JeffM2501`	`"us" is "them"`
`00:14.31`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`lol`
`00:14.34`	`JeffM2501`	`there is no real organised dev team`
`00:14.41`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`well, true`
`00:14.45`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`as in most oss ggames`
`00:14.47`	`JeffM2501`	`so you gonna do it?`
`00:14.57`	`JeffM2501`	`there aren't many OSS games :)`
`00:15.02`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`erm...I would...`
`00:15.22`	`JeffM2501`	`but.... ?`
`00:15.23`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`Ive been coding for about 6 years now`
`00:15.33`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`but windows. No *Nix experience`
`00:15.34`	`JeffM2501`	`then shouldn't be a problem`
`00:15.43`	`JeffM2501`	`bzflag works in windows just fine`
`00:15.44`	`SportyGal`	`JeffM2501: apparently that guy we had trouble with earlier (who is impersonating High Karate Kitty) is getting her banned from a ton of servers. Can we add him to the global ban list?`
`00:16.10`	`JeffM2501`	`any low level changs would not need to be in winsock or bsd socket level code`
`00:16.16`	`JeffM2501`	`but at a message/state level`
`00:16.21`	`JeffM2501`	`so that would be OS inspecific`
`00:16.22`	`cosmos`	`bzdevel should just quit their jobs`
`00:16.27`	`cosmos`	`and work for free all day!`
`00:16.44`	`JeffM2501`	`SportyGal, yeah gimme IP`
`00:16.54`	`JeffM2501`	`cosmos, I'd love too`
`00:16.56`	`Chestal`	`I'l just introduce micropayment on ducati servers`
`00:16.59`	`JeffM2501`	`will RedSoxFan pay me?`
`00:17.04`	`SportyGal`	`66.218.54.83`
`00:17.07`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`without-sdl didn't help`
`00:17.10`	`cosmos`	`that would be it`
`00:17.16`	`cosmos`	`they hit hepcat tons of times today`
`00:17.55`	`JeffM2501`	`got a "name" for me?`
`00:18.10`	`cosmos`	`they impersonate high karate kitty`
`00:18.11`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`how about...Bob :P`
`00:18.18`	`Chestal`	`or the old advertising idea`
`00:18.26`	`SportyGal`	`sooo many names: blzh, mr. brown, fake high karate kitty, high karate puppy, high karate hampster`
`00:18.28`	`SportyGal`	`shall I go on?`
`00:18.28`	`Chestal`	`'this space for rent# on the boxes of my map`
`00:18.31`	`JeffM2501`	`Chestal, you weren't here for our subscription idea`
`00:18.46`	`Chestal`	`I'm always here :-)`
`00:18.46`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`ha`
`00:18.56`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`so does bzf need devs>`
`00:19.03`	`Chestal`	`my network is misbehaving, lost packets`
`00:19.11`	`*** join/#bzflag HighKarateKitty (~44621954@webchat.bzflag.bz)`
`00:19.20`	`JeffM2501`	`it's an open source project it allways needs helps`
`00:19.22`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`speak of the devel`
`00:19.23`	`Chestal`	`I better go to bed anyway, cu`
`00:19.27`	`JeffM2501`	`see ya`
`00:19.28`	`CIA-5`	`BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 * 10admin/master-bans.txt: impersonator`
`00:19.30`	`SportyGal`	`kitty, I'm getting the fake put on the global ban list`
`00:19.44`	`HighKarateKitty`	`thankyou`
`00:19.55`	`cosmos`	`heh`
`00:19.56`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`what a ride, hmm?`
`00:20.01`	`HighKarateKitty`	`I was just about banned from hepcat just now`
`00:20.09`	`cosmos`	`i came on and saw him there`
`00:20.13`	`cosmos`	`after tons of reports`
`00:20.15`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`Identity theft in a tank game`
`00:20.18`	`cosmos`	`i was seconds away from a /ban`
`00:20.22`	`SportyGal`	`you shouldn't be banned in reality cuz it goes off ip and your ips are drastically different`
`00:20.34`	`cosmos`	`yeah not with the master ban he wont`
`00:20.40`	`JeffM2501`	`it's update`
`00:20.42`	`cosmos`	`but until then we dont know which is which`
`00:20.45`	`JeffM2501`	`everyone needs to releoad`
`00:20.51`	`HighKarateKitty`	`I have the guys ip that was blzh that used high Karate hamster`
`00:21.02`	`Lord_Sarpedon`	`bye`
`00:21.03`	`*** part/#bzflag Lord_Sarpedon (~Lord_Sarp@adsl-70-240-226-128.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net)`
`00:21.06`	`SportyGal`	`it was the same guy for all of them`
`00:21.06`	`SportyGal`	`I saw the ip`
`00:21.11`	`SportyGal`	`I have the host info too, if needed`
`00:21.28`	`JeffM2501`	`these are on non global auth servers then?`
`00:21.33`	`cosmos`	`we need an address so there can be an ass wuppin`
`00:21.53`	`SportyGal`	`cosmos, what do you need?`
`00:22.10`	`JeffM2501`	`do they have a global auth name that you know of?`
`00:22.18`	`SportyGal`	`not that I'm aware of`
`00:22.18`	`HighKarateKitty`	`I will probably be banned on some cause maybe they wont look at the ip at first`
`00:22.26`	`cosmos`	`they came in as high karate kitty, is that a global auth name?`
`00:22.37`	`JeffM2501`	`did they verify?`
`00:22.42`	`cosmos`	`unlikely`
`00:22.46`	`HighKarateKitty`	`.with capitals yes`
`00:23.20`	`JeffM2501`	`IP has been added to bzbb ban list`
`00:23.23`	`JeffM2501`	`looking for names`
`00:23.45`	`JeffM2501`	`nothing today`
`00:24.03`	`HighKarateKitty`	`this guy as soon as he first came on asked about how to become an admin`
`00:24.22`	`JeffM2501`	`don't show any names on bzbb that start with "high"`
`00:24.35`	`JeffM2501`	`or IC ould be stupid`
`00:24.41`	`JeffM2501`	`HighKarateKitty, do you have a bzbb account?`
`00:24.42`	`*** join/#bzflag spldart (~spldart@cpe-67-10-210-195.houston.res.rr.com)`
`00:25.13`	`HighKarateKitty`	`.no but im registered`
`00:25.22`	`HighKarateKitty`	`.what is bzbb`
`00:25.26`	`SportyGal`	`jeff, they did not id`
`00:25.30`	`SportyGal`	`kitty is an admin on sp`
`00:25.36`	`Nidhoggr`	`she's on there, JeffM2501`
`00:25.40`	`JeffM2501`	`what name?`
`00:25.49`	`Nidhoggr`	`as high karate kitty 3 seperate wors`
`00:25.51`	`JeffM2501`	`want to verify that the one I have here is her`
`00:25.52`	`Nidhoggr`	`wors`
`00:25.53`	`JeffM2501`	`ok`
`00:25.55`	`JeffM2501`	`then she's good`
`00:25.55`	`HighKarateKitty`	`High Karate Kitty`
`00:25.57`	`Nidhoggr`	`words`
`00:26.02`	`JeffM2501`	`there are no other names like that`
`00:26.03`	`Nidhoggr`	`my d key is flaking.`
`00:26.08`	`JeffM2501`	`the IP is baned`
`00:26.10`	`Nidhoggr`	`I'm looking right at it.`
`00:26.13`	`JeffM2501`	`so they can't make any new users`
`00:26.18`	`Nidhoggr`	`ok`
`00:26.26`	`SportyGal`	`Nidhoggr: did you get my emails (not sure if I had the right addy - sent from office)`
`00:26.28`	`JeffM2501`	`wanted to make sure there wasn't a fake name in there`
`00:26.33`	`spldart`	`Added the 'hitler' person to a hard ban...`
`00:26.36`	`Nidhoggr`	`I replied`
`00:27.00`	`Nidhoggr`	`d key is sticking. :(`
`00:27.14`	`cosmos`	`hard ban?`
`00:28.22`	`spldart`	`some peeps get a rule in the firewall`
`00:28.27`	`cosmos`	`ahh`
`00:28.29`	`spldart`	`I drop their packets`
`00:28.37`	`Nidhoggr`	`think I fixed my d`
`00:28.53`	`spldart`	`I'm also updating the banlist.. Noticed JeffM added one today`
`00:29.07`	`HighKarateKitty`	`ok thx guys just wanted to see if you knew what was going on bye`
`00:29.29`	`spldart`	`Done and /reload ed`
`00:30.22`	`spldart`	`Seems it's been eventful lately`
`00:30.26`	`spldart`	`BZ that is`
`00:30.38`	`JeffM2501`	`school breaks`
`00:30.43`	`spldart`	`OH!`
`00:30.51`	`spldart`	`duh :slaps forhead:`
`00:30.54`	`JeffM2501`	`spring break and all that`
`00:31.12`	`spldart`	`What was the deal with High Karate.... Somebody copying her name?`
`00:31.14`	`cosmos`	`we never had this problem in 1994 when bzflag was located on our office LAN... ;)`
`00:31.22`	`spldart`	`hehe`
`00:31.27`	`JeffM2501`	`and only ran on SGI machines`
`00:31.43`	`spldart`	`LOL`
`00:31.43`	`cosmos`	`thats just great, instead of getting drunk and laid they are causing trouble in online games`
`00:31.45`	`Nidhoggr`	`heh`
`00:31.50`	`cosmos`	`that speaks volumes about todays youth`
`00:32.06`	`spldart`	`youth has been getting drunk and laid for over half a century`
`00:33.06`	`cosmos`	`they are not doing it properly then if they have time to mess with online games`
`00:33.16`	`spldart`	`LMAO`
`00:33.21`	`*** join/#bzflag brad2901_ (brad2901@ACC8B3BB.ipt.aol.com)`
`00:33.59`	`JeffM2501`	`maybe they are doin it at the same time as they play`
`00:34.14`	`spldart`	`eeeyyuuuwwaaahhh....`
`00:34.21`	`spldart`	`I think my map is soiled :(`
`00:34.30`	`JeffM2501`	`tho give tupone some time, I'm sure he'll break windows nice and good soon :)`
`00:34.33`	`spldart`	`Like I said earlier`
`00:34.38`	`spldart`	`I hope they are practicing safe tanking`
`00:34.47`	`cosmos`	`i dont`
`00:35.01`	`cosmos`	`if this is the sorry state of children today let them catch something and go away`
`00:35.07`	`spldart`	`You could catch something 8-0`
`00:35.09`	`JeffM2501`	`I don't drive normal ground tanks anymore`
`00:35.28`	`cosmos`	`this old man doesnt touch anything under 35`
`00:36.20`	`spldart`	`I'm 36.5 y/o and married to a 27.4 y/o`
`00:37.35`	`cosmos`	`i had to double take there`
`00:38.04`	`spldart`	`I married older first marriage and younger second.`
`00:38.26`	`*** join/#bzflag brailsmt (~michael@adsl-64-216-143-193.dsl.kscymo.swbell.net)`
`00:38.37`	`*** part/#bzflag brailsmt (~michael@adsl-64-216-143-193.dsl.kscymo.swbell.net)`
`00:39.06`	`cosmos`	`i do not condone marriage`
`00:39.16`	`spldart`	`heh why>`
`00:39.18`	`spldart`	`?`
`00:39.43`	`spldart`	`I know I'll never make the mistake again :-p`
`00:40.22`	`cosmos`	`why limit yourself?`
`00:40.33`	`cosmos`	`besides it's just a control ploy by the church`
`00:40.42`	`spldart`	`Whateva`
`00:40.57`	`spldart`	`I don't think the church created marriage anyway`
`00:41.19`	`spldart`	`they have each instituionalized it in their own way`
`00:42.10`	`*** join/#bzflag brad2901 (brad2901@ACC8B3BB.ipt.aol.com)`
`00:44.51`	`cosmos`	`i need to go to a taping of the chappelle show`
`00:45.02`	`*** join/#bzflag bzflagwiz (~wiz@12-240-60-115.client.mchsi.com)`
`00:46.50`	`*** join/#bzflag brad2901_ (brad2901@ACC8B3BB.ipt.aol.com)`
`00:50.06`	`*** join/#bzflag Noodleman (~tuckerm@12-210-69-176.client.insightBB.com)`
`00:54.14`	`JeffM2501`	`tape?`
`00:54.17`	`JeffM2501`	`what is tape?`
`00:54.56`	`spldart`	`Isn't that like an archaic form of .mpg/.avi???`
`00:55.28`	`JeffM2501`	`why would somone not just tivo a show?`
`00:55.49`	`Aribeth`	`tape is an aincint method of recording`
`00:56.10`	`*** join/#bzflag Legoguy (~Lego\|Desk@adsl-68-250-243-70.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net)`
`00:56.12`	`Aribeth`	`it is an obscure word today`
`00:56.13`	`JeffM2501`	`like papyrus?`
`00:56.24`	`Aribeth`	`lol`
`00:56.40`	`bzflagwiz`	`I suspect the only reason we remember it yet today is because of the tar command...`
`00:56.41`	`JeffM2501`	`how many megs can you fit on it?`
`00:56.54`	`spldart`	`lolol`
`00:57.08`	`spldart`	`My guess is 1.2gig`
`00:57.11`	`spldart`	`LOL`
`00:57.12`	`Aribeth`	`ahh good old tar`
`00:57.36`	`cosmos`	`so the funniest documentary last night had this white supremacist baffled when the filmmaker pointed out jesus was a jew "uhh we are white christians we do not tolerate jews how dare you defile the name of jesus like that"`
`00:58.05`	`bzflagwiz`	`remember the old commodore vic-20 with the cassete tape drive...took 1/2 hour to load one game`
`00:58.12`	`spldart`	`Reminds me of Chappele's white supremicst skit`
`00:58.12`	`Aribeth`	`in aincant times one could record only but a few K bytes of data on a 10 inch reel of tape`
`00:58.14`	`bzflagwiz`	`if you had the tape wound to the right place...`
`00:58.19`	`spldart`	`I had one of those`
`00:58.28`	`spldart`	`and a trs-80 model 1 iwth a tape drive too`
`00:58.29`	`cosmos`	`BLOAD`
`00:58.30`	`cosmos`	`BRUN`
`00:58.39`	`cosmos`	`POKE`
`00:58.40`	`cosmos`	`PEEK`
`00:58.51`	`Aribeth`	`fizl fizl`
`00:58.52`	`spldart`	`set`
`00:58.59`	`spldart`	`if for then`
`00:59.08`	`spldart`	`gosub`
`00:59.08`	`cosmos`	`but nothing beats JCL`
`00:59.16`	`Aribeth`	`error error # 4509`
`00:59.28`	`bzflagwiz`	`38911 basic bytes free`
`00:59.37`	`spldart`	`:-D`
`00:59.41`	`Aribeth`	`:D`
`00:59.50`	`bzflagwiz`	`load *,8,1`
`01:00.15`	`spldart`	`I thought I was cooking with gas the first time I expanded 128 K on my apple II`
`01:00.16`	`spldart`	`hehe`
`01:00.18`	`Aribeth`	`and then watch it load for 30 minutes only to find it didnt work`
`01:00.46`	`theEnemy`	`i had that plenty of times`
`01:00.51`	`bzflagwiz`	`10 print "Wiz rules ";`
`01:00.52`	`bzflagwiz`	`20 goto 10`
`01:01.03`	`spldart`	`TRS 80.... (* ) ( ) () ( ) ( ) (*)`
`01:01.05`	`theEnemy`	`what was it for the vic-20? 3168 bytes free or something?`
`01:01.22`	`Aribeth`	`i had an Atari 800`
`01:01.34`	`bzflagwiz`	`Something like that, my best friend had one... I waited and splurged on the C-64`
`01:01.35`	`Aribeth`	`i dumped the tape drive fast`
`01:01.35`	`theEnemy`	`Although you could buy the 16K expansion cartridge if you wanted to write big programs.`
`01:01.51`	`bzflagwiz`	`Along with a blazing 300 baud modem`
`01:02.03`	`theEnemy`	`modem? luxury ;)`
`01:02.10`	`Aribeth`	`i hacked my Atari 800 so i had 48 K of ram`
`01:02.12`	`theEnemy`	`in my day we had to whistle down the phone line`
`01:02.12`	`bzflagwiz`	`kermit - xmodem - zmodem - geek - bleep - bloop`
`01:02.57`	`spldart`	`I still have a casio PB-100`
`01:03.20`	`spldart`	`With tape drive and thermal printer`
`01:03.24`	`theEnemy`	`my newsagent still uses a BBC micro`
`01:03.34`	`scanline`	`PR#6`
`01:03.38`	`bzflagwiz`	`theEnemy: lol`
`01:04.24`	`Aribeth`	`heh i had a full teletype with paper tape punch and reader`
`01:04.56`	`theEnemy`	`Aribeth wins :)`
`01:05.06`	`Aribeth`	`ROFLOL`
`01:05.18`	`Aribeth`	`:D`
`01:07.09`	`spldart`	`One of my grandmothers used a punch card computer :eek:`
`01:07.14`	`theEnemy`	`my first PC (as opposed to "home" computer) was a 4.77MHz 8086 clone`
`01:07.45`	`theEnemy`	`punched cards were aroudn a long time`
`01:08.53`	`theEnemy`	`my PC clone had 256Kb memory, but along the way got upgraded with an extra 384Kb in an ISA slot. You could tell when you were using more than 256Kb because the programs would go slightly slower then.`
`01:09.09`	`Aribeth`	`my uncle ran a KFRC's FM sister radio station. it used a computer and punchcards`
`01:10.40`	`*** join/#bzflag Carnage (Carn@dyn216-8-133-185.ADSL.mnsi.net)`
`01:10.43`	`Aribeth`	`that was around 1968`
`01:11.29`	`spldart`	`I was born in 68`
`01:12.19`	`spldart`	`:/`
`01:12.23`	`theEnemy`	`A university mainframe I knew of a while back had been upgraded a little. They added "nearline" tape storage, with the input done by shining lights into the paper tape reader (don't ask me why! I guess it wasn't very expandable)`
`01:13.23`	`theEnemy`	`I've played against bzflag players born in 1998.`
`01:13.24`	`Aribeth`	`i was born in 53`
`01:13.47`	`cosmos`	`born in 1998?`
`01:13.50`	`cosmos`	`egads`
`01:14.35`	`Aribeth`	`egads i've dated myself. :)`
`01:15.07`	`theEnemy`	`well, ok, player. But he wasn't as bad as he should be at that age! Next up was a couple of 8 year olds.`
`01:15.13`	`theEnemy`	`Aribeth: split personality?`
`01:15.19`	`Aribeth`	`hehe`
`01:15.26`	`Aribeth`	`just gettin old`
`01:15.35`	`theEnemy`	`ah, talking to yourself ;)`
`01:15.41`	`Aribeth`	`hehe`
`01:15.58`	`cosmos`	`we supposedly had a bz player born in 1937 the other night`
`01:16.19`	`cosmos`	`he was using his grandsons computer`
`01:17.23`	`theEnemy`	`if he didn't even have a computer himself, I bet it wasn't a pretty sight ;)`
`01:17.30`	`theEnemy`	`tank parts everywhere, eww`
`01:17.43`	`Aribeth`	`lol`
`01:17.49`	`theEnemy`	`or herself (doh!)`
`01:18.18`	`cosmos`	`they played better than redsoxfan90`
`01:19.10`	`Aribeth`	`is that ducatiwanabe?`
`01:20.22`	`theEnemy`	`I thought dw wasn't that old? I'm sure I've asked him, although I don't remember the answer.`
`01:21.29`	`Aribeth`	`all i remember was that he had a baseball like name once`
`01:21.31`	`JeffM2501`	`1998?`
`01:21.37`	`JeffM2501`	`is that suposed to e a logn time ago?`
`01:21.55`	`Aribeth`	`in a galaxy far far away`
`01:22.16`	`JeffM2501`	`somehow 7 years dosn't seem impresive`
`01:22.26`	`spldart`	`I have a 13, 11 and 8 y/o playing`
`01:22.36`	`spldart`	`my 6 and 3 y/o do not`
`01:23.47`	`bzflagwiz`	`hehe - Grannybeth`
`01:24.27`	`cosmos`	`the world would not be a good place if cosmos had kids`
`01:24.50`	`cosmos`	`i do not support reproduction`
`01:25.52`	`cosmos`	`awesome! now thats a deal. sun E4500, 12 400mhz cpus, 24gb ram. #275`
`01:26.18`	`SportChick`	`so, there is a global ban list - is there a global whitelist list?`
`01:26.36`	`JeffM2501`	`no`
`01:26.40`	`SportChick`	`someone using bzadmin2 on linux. It worked fine in 2.0.0 but on 2.0.2 it won't do the global id lookup`
`01:26.46`	`cosmos`	`heh, that would be spiffy. no way to ban core developers/serverops`
`01:27.07`	`*** join/#bzflag Jormungandr (~consus@user-69-1-42-120.knology.net)`
`01:27.08`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah global whitelist would 1) not work, and 2) could only be abused`
`01:27.13`	`cosmos`	`:)`
`01:27.20`	`JeffM2501`	`since we don't ban ranges on the masterban, there is no need for a whitelist.`
`01:27.32`	`JeffM2501`	`white list is only to get around a range ban`
`01:27.40`	`SportChick`	`JeffM2501: yeah, as I think about it, I see the rationale.`
`01:27.51`	`SportChick`	`is spooge on masterban or server-specific bans?`
`01:27.59`	`JeffM2501`	`both`
`01:28.06`	`JeffM2501`	`he has some IPs on master IIRC`
`01:28.24`	`SportChick`	`ducatiwannabe was caught in spooge's ban (/me doesn't know which one) - so I had to whitelist`
`01:28.40`	`SportChick`	`does it make sense to have a forum (or at least forum topic) for people caught in bans to contest them?`
`01:28.51`	`JeffM2501`	`that's what PMs are for`
`01:29.03`	`JeffM2501`	`there should be a forum that has contact info for servers tho`
`01:29.08`	`SportChick`	`JeffM2501: that works if server admins are known`
`01:29.08`	`SportChick`	`yeah`
`01:29.10`	`JeffM2501`	`that is what the servers forum stickys are suposed to be for`
`01:29.13`	`SportChick`	`we think alike`
`01:29.31`	`JeffM2501`	`but the ban is between the server admin team and the bannie`
`01:29.31`	`SportChick`	`(again)`
`01:29.44`	`JeffM2501`	`it should not be discussed in public ( too much of a flaimbait )`
`01:30.08`	`SportChick`	`back to my other question:`
`01:30.14`	`SportChick`	`someone using bzadmin2 on linux. It worked fine in 2.0.0 but on 2.0.2 it won't do the global id lookup`
`01:30.20`	`JeffM2501`	`the boards can only be used to help admin servers who's admin teams maintain a presence on the boards`
`01:30.21`	`SportChick`	`any ideas?`
`01:30.34`	`JeffM2501`	`SportChick, we saw the first time, nothing in the game changed`
`01:30.40`	`JeffM2501`	`probably a caching proxy thing`
`01:30.46`	`SportChick`	`JeffM2501: sorry for repeating :(`
`01:31.10`	`SportChick`	`JeffM2501: caching proxy... over my head. any advice for me to give (verbatim)?`
`01:31.16`	`JeffM2501`	`I would not want to make a forum for ban appeals, it would give people the idea that the forums could actualy DO something about them.`
`01:31.25`	`SportChick`	`JeffM2501: ok`
`01:31.32`	`JeffM2501`	`SportChick, have them use port 81 for the list server.`
`01:31.43`	`SportChick`	`ok I'll try that`
`01:32.10`	`JeffM2501`	`at the best we can do is provide a place for server owners to post contact info`
`01:35.23`	`cosmos`	`just send em to cosmos. ill be gentle...cough`
`01:36.42`	`*** join/#bzflag wizart (~wizart@dsl-084-058-007-124.arcor-ip.net)`
`01:37.51`	`JeffM2501`	`you'd have to do it in the StrongBad voice`
`01:37.52`	`SportChick`	`JeffM2501: he says he's tried that and it isn't working. he's on same machine as his wife - she connects fine with gui settings, but he uses bzadmin client and it gives him a bad token error. I asked him to come talk to you direct`
`01:38.21`	`JeffM2501`	`bad tokens can only come from not conencting to the server right`
`01:39.46`	`*** join/#bzflag Junker (~c0ceb4c8@webchat.bzflag.bz)`
`01:40.10`	`SportChick`	`hi junker`
`01:40.28`	`Junker`	`Hey Sporty`
`01:40.30`	`Junker`	`hehe`
`01:40.44`	`Junker`	`I was still scanning the list..`
`01:41.02`	`Junker`	`Is Jeff available?`
`01:41.24`	`JeffM2501`	`I am`
`01:41.44`	`Junker`	`Hi Jeff.. Sporty told me I should talk with you about bzadmin client`
`01:41.48`	`Jormungandr`	`Quick question about the group files, when you restart the server is the status of a local.admin lost or does it save it somewhere? If so how can I change that?`
`01:41.57`	`JeffM2501`	`heh`
`01:42.02`	`Junker`	`hehe`
`01:42.05`	`JeffM2501`	`if you are geting bad tokens`
`01:42.11`	`Junker`	`Yup`
`01:42.13`	`JeffM2501`	`the ether username/password is bad`
`01:42.20`	`JeffM2501`	`or comunication with the list server is cached`
`01:43.02`	`Junker`	`I have port 81 defined.. the GUI works.. but not the client`
`01:43.20`	`JeffM2501`	`wierd`
`01:43.24`	`Junker`	`<PROTECTED>`
`01:44.17`	`Junker`	`I'm using the same account as my wife.. she's fine... I'm not.. but same passwd I use with GUI`
`01:44.20`	`*** join/#bzflag wegstar_ (~foo@adsl-67-121-190-35.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net)`
`01:44.44`	`JeffM2501`	`hang on, on phone`
`01:44.48`	`Junker`	`k`
`01:44.53`	`JeffM2501`	`make sure your config has 81`
`01:45.43`	`Junker`	`set list http://my.BZFlag.org:81/db/`
`01:45.58`	`JeffM2501`	`well make it 80`
`01:46.00`	`JeffM2501`	`see what happens`
`01:46.33`	`Junker`	`trying`
`01:47.16`	`Junker`	`nope.. no go`
`01:47.20`	`*** part/#bzflag cosmos (~cosmos@valentino.hepcat.org)`
`01:47.55`	`Junker`	`when upgrading to 2.0.2.. did we need to get rid of old config files?`
`01:47.56`	`JeffM2501`	`dono then`
`01:48.01`	`JeffM2501`	`nope`
`01:48.18`	`Junker`	`Ok, I'll dig into it and figure it out.. thanks for the help:)`
`01:48.23`	`JeffM2501`	`0.2 is just bug fixes`
`01:57.32`	`*** join/#bzflag creeperz (~creeperz@host-40-145-230-24.midco.net)`
`01:58.17`	`*** join/#bzflag thomaskorwed (~vb@rule-dk2.smca.yahoo.com)`
`01:59.18`	`*** part/#bzflag thomaskorwed (~vb@rule-dk2.smca.yahoo.com)`
`02:00.22`	`spldart`	`I want to play with some objects that I hope to later use in a map... What's a good proggie to use for that? (I want to import stuff, mod them and then make them usable on a .bzw)`
`02:00.35`	`spldart`	`I know I've already asked but can't remember`
`02:01.11`	`*** join/#bzflag shorty114 (~shorty114@shorty114.user)`
`02:08.16`	`*** join/#bzflag Pimpi (~frank@p54819EDE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)`
`02:17.23`	`JeffM2501`	`http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail118.html`
`02:17.23`	`Jormungandr`	`BZEdit1.6.4 looks like it half-runs under wine, but Im getting this "err:msg:DispatchMessageA BeginPaint not called on WM_PAINT for hwnd 0x1002a!"`
`02:20.46`	`*** join/#bzflag Silver1 (SilverFox@68-116-47-254.or.charter.com)`
`02:22.05`	`*** part/#bzflag Carnage (Carn@dyn216-8-133-185.ADSL.mnsi.net)`
`02:24.41`	`spldart`	`lmao at jeffm link`
`02:26.20`	`JeffM2501`	`in the next one he gets a new email`
`02:26.25`	`JeffM2501`	`new computer I mean`
`02:26.40`	`blast007`	`hehe: "Computer over. Virus = Very Yes."`
`02:29.58`	`*** join/#bzflag Carnage (Carn@dyn216-8-132-179.ADSL.mnsi.net)`
`02:37.14`	`Jormungandr`	`FYI, BZEdit1.6.4 does work under wine, the error i was getting was fixed in a more resent patch. Heh, the wine guys finally fixed it... again..:)`
`02:37.23`	`theEnemy`	`i haven't seen that site before. tons of very funny videos :). i think i'll be here a little while though.... d*mn you jeffm!`
`02:37.26`	`theEnemy`	`;)`
`02:38.24`	`JeffM2501`	`you've never seen HSR?`
`02:38.24`	`JeffM2501`	`wow`
`02:38.36`	`theEnemy`	`i've led a sheltered life evidently`
`02:38.43`	`JeffM2501`	`start at the begining`
`02:38.46`	`JeffM2501`	`it's better that way`
`02:41.51`	`*** join/#bzflag shorty114 (~shorty114@shorty114.user)`
`02:42.58`	`*** join/#bzflag shorty114 (~shorty114@shorty114.user)`
`02:44.10`	`*** part/#bzflag shorty114 (~shorty114@shorty114.user)`
`02:56.19`	`*** join/#bzflag LordSarpedon (~naht@adsl-70-240-226-128.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net)`
`02:56.26`	`LordSarpedon`	`I'm baaaack...`
`02:56.43`	`*** join/#bzflag JeffM2501 (~jeffm@Patlabor221.active.supporter.pdpc)`
`02:56.43`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ`
`02:56.55`	`LordSarpedon`	`Welcome back jeff`
`02:57.00`	`LordSarpedon`	`I just arrived as well`
`02:57.16`	`JeffM2501`	`umm thanks`
`02:57.31`	`LordSarpedon`	`Well, never got hardware accel working.`
`02:57.49`	`JeffM2501`	`one reason I don't use ATI`
`02:57.59`	`LordSarpedon`	`It's not ATI`
`02:58.12`	`LordSarpedon`	`Everything else works, including SDL stuff`
`02:58.19`	`spldart`	`Nothing wrong with ati :/`
`02:58.27`	`JeffM2501`	`it's not bzflag`
`02:58.33`	`JeffM2501`	`it works fine on my nix system`
`02:58.36`	`LordSarpedon`	`It's probably my noobness`
`02:58.59`	`JeffM2501`	`ati drivers just seem to be hard to deal with`
`02:59.09`	`LordSarpedon`	`I'm new to Linux, and despise GNU compilation`
`02:59.15`	`LordSarpedon`	`ati drivers are indeed`
`02:59.25`	`LordSarpedon`	`They remind me of duck-tape`
`02:59.51`	`spldart`	`Old ati drivers were flacky and overtaken. but I have found the new ones are stable as **** :)`
`03:00.18`	`LordSarpedon`	`Me as well spl`
`03:00.41`	`JeffM2501`	`I have not ever realy had a stablitly issue with nvidia drivers`
`03:00.54`	`JeffM2501`	`worst I've had is having to do a modprobe on linux`
`03:00.55`	`LordSarpedon`	`The only problem is poor integration with the SuSE tools...if I use the config tool for X it breaks my driver install`
`03:00.56`	`JeffM2501`	`once`
`03:01.05`	`LordSarpedon`	`Oh, poor you ;)`
`03:01.10`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah I can't complain`
`03:01.22`	`JeffM2501`	`I have flashed ATI cards for the mac`
`03:01.30`	`JeffM2501`	`and a couple systems have them installed`
`03:01.35`	`JeffM2501`	`but they tend to eat drivers`
`03:02.04`	`LordSarpedon`	`Win drivers are great for ati...got to commend them for giving linux a try`
`03:02.14`	`LordSarpedon`	`maggie?`
`03:02.29`	`JeffM2501`	`the dual boot system`
`03:03.18`	`LordSarpedon`	`Never heard of it. Are the nvidia drivers made by nvidia?`
`03:03.24`	`JeffM2501`	`yes`
`03:03.36`	`JeffM2501`	`they have had them for a very long time`
`03:03.48`	`LordSarpedon`	`Nice. Now if only some of these other companies would do the same`
`03:03.50`	`JeffM2501`	`so no I don't have to comment ati for trying, it's kind of expected in this day in age.`
`03:03.57`	`JeffM2501`	`there are only 2 vid card mfgs`
`03:04.01`	`JeffM2501`	`realy`
`03:04.11`	`LordSarpedon`	`Well there are the other guys`
`03:04.15`	`JeffM2501`	`ATI win drivers are flakey too`
`03:04.24`	`LordSarpedon`	`Zero probs here`
`03:04.25`	`JeffM2501`	`and involve installing 2 seperate driver systems`
`03:04.35`	`JeffM2501`	`they have goten a lot better of late`
`03:04.44`	`*** join/#bzflag cosmos (~cosmos@valentino.hepcat.org)`
`03:04.48`	`JeffM2501`	`at one time ATI had only 2 people on drivers`
`03:04.58`	`LordSarpedon`	`Yuck`
`03:05.22`	`LordSarpedon`	`On the topic of my getting into bzf development...`
`03:06.13`	`LordSarpedon`	`any advice? I know basic (read: little) C++, but all languages are the same after a while`
`03:06.31`	`JeffM2501`	`what kinda stuff do you want to do?`
`03:06.35`	`JeffM2501`	`bzflag is totaly C++`
`03:06.40`	`JeffM2501`	`what languages do you know?`
`03:06.58`	`LordSarpedon`	`Let's see...don't laugh`
`03:07.18`	`LordSarpedon`	`I did VB6 for a while, but have been on that MS .Net stuff these past years`
`03:07.23`	`LordSarpedon`	`Yes, i know...`
`03:07.29`	`JeffM2501`	`so C#?`
`03:07.34`	`JeffM2501`	`vb.net?`
`03:07.43`	`LordSarpedon`	`vb, sadly. im ashamed`
`03:08.07`	`JeffM2501`	`the language has it's uses`
`03:08.12`	`JeffM2501`	`I'`
`03:08.21`	`JeffM2501`	`I'd start by geting it to build`
`03:08.34`	`JeffM2501`	`then look at some stuff you are interested in doing, and make some patches for them`
`03:08.47`	`LordSarpedon`	`It builds Jeff...just not the way I want it to`
`03:09.08`	`JeffM2501`	`you want to use nix as your dev platform?`
`03:09.10`	`JeffM2501`	`or windows?`
`03:09.11`	`LordSarpedon`	`I can likely get a build going on Win.`
`03:09.21`	`LordSarpedon`	`Linux was giving me too much crap`
`03:09.26`	`JeffM2501`	`what version of visual studio do you use?`
`03:09.31`	`LordSarpedon`	`.net 2003`
`03:09.35`	`JeffM2501`	`7.1`
`03:09.48`	`JeffM2501`	`there are projects for 7.1 in the source tree`
`03:10.08`	`LordSarpedon`	`I need to pick up the C++ package to plug in to Visual Studio`
`03:10.25`	`LordSarpedon`	`Hey, should get C# too one of these days`
`03:10.33`	`JeffM2501`	`studio comes with vc`
`03:10.51`	`*** join/#bzflag Legoguy_ (~Lego\|Desk@adsl-68-250-243-70.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net)`
`03:10.54`	`JeffM2501`	`it's not studio unless it comes with C++, J++, VC and C#`
`03:10.59`	`LordSarpedon`	`Well, the IDE is visual studio, but only with the vb capability`
`03:11.10`	`JeffM2501`	`ohh so you just got the vb.net module`
`03:11.13`	`JeffM2501`	`not the full studio`
`03:11.24`	`LordSarpedon`	`Yah, as i said i need to buy the cpp package`
`03:11.32`	`LordSarpedon`	`plug it right in`
`03:11.43`	`JeffM2501`	`it's not quite like that`
`03:11.49`	`LordSarpedon`	`Do you know an OSS ide that works as well as VS .NET?`
`03:11.56`	`JeffM2501`	`none`
`03:12.02`	`LordSarpedon`	`Hah.`
`03:12.06`	`JeffM2501`	`kdev or anjunta will be close`
`03:12.10`	`JeffM2501`	`but we don't maintain projects for them`
`03:12.18`	`LordSarpedon`	`True`
`03:12.23`	`JeffM2501`	`that's on nix`
`03:12.26`	`JeffM2501`	`on windows`
`03:12.29`	`JeffM2501`	`you have devC++`
`03:12.31`	`JeffM2501`	`it's a joke tho`
`03:12.40`	`LordSarpedon`	`No kidding...i hate that thing`
`03:13.14`	`LordSarpedon`	`Does kdev or anjuta have proper code completion? That code completion and error highlighting in VS works like a charm`
`03:13.54`	`JeffM2501`	`some`
`03:13.56`	`JeffM2501`	`but not the same`
`03:14.10`	`LordSarpedon`	`:(`
`03:14.27`	`LordSarpedon`	`VS is one of the few things ms has done right`
`03:14.49`	`JeffM2501`	`nothing is teh same as VC with visual assit`
`03:15.00`	`LordSarpedon`	`asset or assist`
`03:15.22`	`JeffM2501`	`assist`
`03:15.43`	`JeffM2501`	`as far as I am concernd MS sould just buy whole tomato and ship that thing with VC`
`03:15.51`	`sgk284`	`LordSarpedon, if you dev in java at all, eclipse and/or netbeans both are pretty amazing IDEs`
`03:16.22`	`JeffM2501`	`eclipse is prety cool`
`03:16.28`	`sgk284`	`eclipse has a mediocre c++ plugin as well, its not MS VC++, but its good enough:)`
`03:16.30`	`DTRemenak`	`kdevelop's code completion is nearly as good as visual studio's, if you have the project set up right. anjunta crashes too often to be useful.`
`03:16.59`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah I got more milage out of kdev then anjunta`
`03:17.09`	`sgk284`	`DTRemenak, kdev supports a ton of languages, does it complete for all of them? jsut curious`
`03:17.13`	`sgk284`	`never used it too much`
`03:17.16`	`DTRemenak`	`probably shouldn't say that about anjunta since I haven't tried in six months or something, but that has been my experience`
`03:17.24`	`DTRemenak`	`sgk284: I dunno. Only know about C++.`
`03:17.27`	`sgk284`	`k`
`03:17.32`	`LordSarpedon`	`this helps, guys`
`03:18.00`	`LordSarpedon`	`After a couple years of garbage colelction, how will I ever remember to delete my pointers`
`03:18.09`	`sgk284`	`heh`
`03:18.11`	`JeffM2501`	`the crashes will tell you`
`03:18.36`	`JeffM2501`	`or convert bz over to using boost smart pointers`
`03:18.48`	`DTRemenak`	`LordSarpedon: every time you do a new, write the delete. then fill in the intermediate code.`
`03:19.14`	`LordSarpedon`	`Youd think`
`03:19.27`	`DTRemenak`	`and think about it when you're using return to bail early`
`03:19.31`	`LordSarpedon`	`I've seen some good smart pointers that help in this`
`03:19.50`	`JeffM2501`	`you get a hang of it`
`03:20.10`	`LordSarpedon`	`UIn other news, Ive found a new bzfs server :P http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS8386088053.html`
`03:20.58`	`LordSarpedon`	`Oh...and how is kdev debugging?`
`03:22.14`	`LordSarpedon`	`In VS .net, I can inspect the variables and such. Is there an equivalent?`
`03:22.16`	`DTRemenak`	`LordSarpedon: I've never used it. gdb is good enough for me`
`03:22.49`	`sgk284`	`heh kdev even supports haskell... thats pretty neat`
`03:22.55`	`DTRemenak`	`I only use kdevelop when I want to write something that involves a bunch of files. Too many consoles running vi confuses me.`
`03:23.08`	`sgk284`	`an ide for a functional language... hows that work?;)`
`03:23.25`	`purple_cow`	`sgk284: just like it works for any other language`
`03:24.47`	`*** join/#bzflag BIYA (BIYA@dialup-4.129.80.91.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)`
`03:24.56`	`sgk284`	`purple_cow, yea i know :) just seems wierd... i've done very little coding in haskell though`
`03:25.05`	`LordSarpedon`	`GDB doesn't look bad at all :)`
`03:25.13`	`purple_cow`	`sgk284: just because it's functional doesn't mean that you still don't need text editors and debuggers...`
`03:25.42`	`LordSarpedon`	`'cept how about object members? In gdb can you do something like myTank->Name?`
`03:25.48`	`sgk284`	`yes`
`03:25.55`	`LordSarpedon`	`astounding`
`03:26.34`	`LordSarpedon`	`well, im off`
`03:28.50`	`*** join/#bzflag MeBigFatGuy (dave@balt-209-150-116-10.dynamic-dial.qis.net)`
`03:30.55`	`DTRemenak`	`hiya MeBigFatGuy`
`03:31.00`	`MeBigFatGuy`	`howdy`
`03:44.12`	`*** join/#bzflag PrezKennedy (~Matthew@130.85.253.237)`
`03:48.35`	`*** join/#bzflag foooo (~shorty114@c-67-161-119-182.client.comcast.net)`
`03:49.37`	`cosmos`	`hrm`
`03:49.46`	`cosmos`	`new bottle of jack daniels for the office desk`
`04:03.50`	`Aribeth`	`hi cosmos`
`04:06.09`	`cosmos`	`hey there`
`04:06.37`	`Aribeth`	`i here jah master got banned`
`04:07.13`	`cosmos`	`jah apprentice did by birdie i think`
`04:07.24`	`cosmos`	`so much crap its hard to keep it straight`
`04:08.07`	`Aribeth`	`ahh, caus jah master wanted me to talk to you about being banned for spamming, but then he did it a secretplace and sleepycows`
`04:08.24`	`Aribeth`	`i almost banned him there`
`04:08.38`	`cosmos`	`heh`
`04:08.39`	`cosmos`	`now i remember`
`04:08.51`	`cosmos`	`he came in and just spammed to hell another servers address`
`04:08.54`	`cosmos`	`i kicked him once`
`04:09.01`	`cosmos`	`he did it again and he found my foot in his ass`
`04:09.16`	`Aribeth`	`ahh, sounds like he deserved it`
`04:09.35`	`cosmos`	`ill probably release it this week but it will be a permaban next time`
`04:09.59`	`JeffM2501`	`isnt' that a name redsoxfan used sometimes?`
`04:10.01`	`Aribeth`	`yup, he almost got the boot at sleepycows`
`04:13.07`	`cosmos`	`thats redsoxfan??`
`04:13.33`	`JeffM2501`	`IIRC the names were linked by IP once`
`04:13.42`	`JeffM2501`	`MO seems simlar as well`
`04:14.38`	`cosmos`	`sigh`
`04:14.48`	`wegstar`	`hmm`
`04:15.39`	`wegstar`	`strage... redsoxfan ran a server during 1.11.36 and disappeared...`
`04:15.48`	`wegstar`	`s/strage/strange/`
`04:17.14`	`cosmos`	`doesnt have enough time with all the spamming/stunts every day`
`04:18.04`	`wegstar`	`might be two different people... who knows?...`
`04:19.58`	`orange`	`when I've seen the jah's around they seem to have other friends that live close to them that are playing`
`04:20.09`	`orange`	`they talk about 'coming over for dinner' and such`
`04:20.25`	`wegstar`	`hmm...`
`04:20.26`	`orange`	`so it could be that redsoxfan90 or whatever was just visiting one of the others, and thus the same IP`
`04:20.36`	`orange`	`or it could just be an alias, of course :-)`
`04:20.56`	`wegstar`	`smart thinking there, cosmos :)`
`04:21.31`	`wegstar`	`ah... and here's his page : http://redsoxfan90.tripod.com/`
`04:21.52`	`cosmos`	`hahaha love that pic`
`04:23.20`	`JeffM2501`	`that has to be one of the uglyest pages I have ever seen`
`04:23.22`	`cosmos`	`what posseses kids to post unflattering pics is beyond me`
`04:23.36`	`JeffM2501`	`where pic?`
`04:24.06`	`cosmos`	`all those players he listed add them to the ban straight off`
`04:24.14`	`cosmos`	`oh menotume has it i think i thought it was on that page`
`04:25.19`	`cosmos`	`he lists all the servers hes been banned on, how cute`
`04:25.37`	`wegstar`	`hehe`
`04:25.49`	`wegstar`	`hmm.. there's nothing wrong with PointBlank...`
`04:26.00`	`wegstar`	`or bzflaginator...`
`04:26.05`	`JeffM2501`	`except maybe his choice of teammates`
`04:26.42`	`wegstar`	`oh well... pointblank doesn't seem to play often anymore...`
`04:27.11`	`wegstar`	`he used to during 1.11.36 and a little into 2.0 and that's it...`
`04:29.47`	`SportChick`	`bzflag.cornishes.net = fake high karate kitty and fake high karate puppy are admins there`
`04:29.55`	`SportChick`	`~bzflist`
`04:30.25`	`cosmos`	`what`
`04:30.42`	`cosmos`	`tghey made their own server`
`04:30.42`	`Aribeth`	`secretplace go down?`
`04:30.47`	`cosmos`	`?`
`04:31.10`	`cosmos`	`thats not good, the /identify stragglers will certainly leave password traces there`
`04:31.12`	`Aribeth`	`everything went nr, and now i cant connect`
`04:31.24`	`sgk284`	`cosmos, what?`
`04:31.37`	`cosmos`	`there are still a small group of people who had auto /identify in 1.x`
`04:31.44`	`cosmos`	`they didnt clean up their shells`
`04:31.55`	`cosmos`	`it still sends the password in the server logs even though they use global auth`
`04:32.06`	`cosmos`	`if you ran a server and collected this for a week you would have a few`
`04:32.13`	`sgk284`	`perhaps /identify should be phased out over the next few releases`
`04:32.15`	`cosmos`	`a couple of our admins got hit by this recently`
`04:32.31`	`MeBigFatGuy`	`wow is google down?`
`04:32.41`	`sgk284`	`nope`
`04:32.41`	`MeBigFatGuy`	`doesn't give me confidence in google-zon`
`04:32.53`	`sgk284`	`google works fine for me`
`04:32.57`	`sgk284`	`~google google`
`04:33.12`	`wegstar`	`what the ...`
`04:33.42`	`MeBigFatGuy`	`perhaps my dns is bad for google then... dunno`
`04:34.41`	`cosmos`	`hahahahaa one of my coworkers came across his girlfriend on a porno site today`
`04:34.49`	`cosmos`	`id pay to see that conversation`
`04:34.51`	`sgk284`	`MeBigFatGuy, you can check with 64.233.161.104`
`04:35.01`	`sgk284`	`cosmos, wow...`
`04:35.03`	`MeBigFatGuy`	`that's google?`
`04:35.12`	`sgk284`	`one of their ip's in their round robin`
`04:35.18`	`MeBigFatGuy`	`that works`
`04:35.25`	`sgk284`	`probably dns issue then`
`04:37.11`	`JeffM2501`	`as long as the servers themselves obey the rules`
`04:37.19`	`JeffM2501`	`we can't ethicaly do anything`
`04:38.08`	`SportChick`	`even though they are using the exact same name as a registered one?`
`04:38.29`	`cosmos`	`registered with who`
`04:38.37`	`cosmos`	`unless its a us copyright not much you can do`
`04:39.15`	`cosmos`	`ive had more than a fair share of hepcat clones and nonsense. cant do much`
`04:40.30`	`orchid`	`!weather cyyz`
`04:40.31`	`guu`	`orchid: The current temperature in Toronto-Pearson International, Ontario is 39�F (11:00 PM EST on March 28, 2005). Conditions: Partly Cloudy. Humidity: 81%. Dew Point: 34�F. Pressure: 29.73 in (1007 hPa). Visibility: 15.0 miles (24.1 kilometers). UV: 0 out of 16`
`04:41.01`	`BIYA`	`What about Virginia, United states?`
`04:41.38`	`sgk284`	`woah jeff...who said anything about ethics ;)`
`04:41.56`	`cosmos`	`well it took 2 minutes to login to that pos server`
`04:42.09`	`cosmos`	`5 idling high karate clones and nothing else`
`04:42.27`	`sgk284`	`ugh they are impersonating high karate kitty?`
`04:42.38`	`sgk284`	`!weather kphl`
`04:42.41`	`guu`	`sgk284: The current temperature in Philadelphia International, Pennsylvania is 50�F (11:01 PM EST on March 28, 2005). Conditions: Light Drizzle Mist. Humidity: 94%. Dew Point: 48�F. Pressure: 29.30 in (992 hPa). Visibility: 4.0 miles (6.4 kilometers). UV: 0 out of 16`
`04:43.20`	`SportChick`	`sgk284: yes, they've been doing it all day. Even got her banned at a few servers before we got them on the masterban list`
`04:43.36`	`wegstar`	`!weather KSFO`
`04:43.37`	`guu`	`wegstar: The current temperature in San Francisco International, California is 52�F (7:56 PM PST on March 28, 2005). Conditions: Scattered Clouds. Humidity: 76%. Dew Point: 45�F. Pressure: 30.09 in (1019 hPa). Visibility: 10.0 miles (16.1 kilometers). UV: 0 out of 16`
`04:44.13`	`sgk284`	`SportChick, do you know if she's banned anyone recently and is it only her or a bunch of peepz?`
`04:44.28`	`cosmos`	`her?`
`04:44.29`	`sgk284`	`being impersonated*`
`04:44.38`	`cosmos`	`i find it amazing that a female would pull this shit`
`04:44.41`	`SportChick`	`actualy ldk had banned the offender before....not sure about kitty`
`04:44.56`	`sgk284`	`cosmos, kitty is a female, she is being impersonated though`
`04:45.06`	`cosmos`	`yeah i doubt the impersonator is female`
`04:45.15`	`cosmos`	`more like 13 and male`
`04:45.19`	`sgk284`	`yea`
`04:45.27`	`BIYA`	`imature little kids`
`04:45.33`	`BIYA`	`always doing bad stuff`
`04:45.33`	`sgk284`	`jeff is usually good at that, let jeff talk to him ;)`
`04:45.43`	`Aribeth`	`just munchkins`
`04:46.05`	`cosmos`	`they just need an hour in a padded room with cosmos. after much weeping and gnashing of teeth no more problems`
`04:46.07`	`sgk284`	`:)`
`04:47.06`	`Aribeth`	`:)`
`04:52.38`	`BIYA`	`Is this place always this quite?`
`04:52.51`	`wegstar`	`"quite".. you mean quiet :P`
`05:01.19`	`BIYA`	`sorry`
`05:01.33`	`BIYA`	`but thanks for telling me :)`
`05:04.18`	`*** join/#bzflag doughecka1 (~Doug@adsl-18-113-75.sdf.bellsouth.net)`
`05:07.20`	`*** join/#bzflag Fuddl (~fuddl@2001:6f8:9cf:0:20f:eaff:fe4d:d7b7)`
`05:10.50`	`BIYA`	`Jeff you there/`
`05:10.53`	`BIYA`	`n?`
`05:10.56`	`BIYA`	`ahh`
`05:11.01`	`BIYA`	`cant type today`
`05:11.07`	`JeffM2501`	`sorta`
`05:11.14`	`BIYA`	`o`
`05:11.55`	`BIYA`	`When you have time.... go here http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=3327`
`05:12.06`	`BIYA`	`still trying to figure out this degenerate thing`
`05:13.54`	`BIYA`	`Unless by what you mean in as "A Real Modeller" is to buy one? Then I might think aout it when I go to work....`
`05:14.03`	`JeffM2501`	`in MS ther eisn't a tool`
`05:14.06`	`JeffM2501`	`you jsut find them`
`05:14.08`	`JeffM2501`	`and kill them`
`05:14.16`	`BIYA`	`hmm`
`05:14.52`	`*** join/#bzflag bzflagwiz (~wiz@12-240-60-115.client.mchsi.com)`
`05:15.17`	`BIYA`	`a invalid triangle is The bottom line of one triangle laying on the bottom line of another?`
`05:15.25`	`BIYA`	`which makes one line`
`05:17.22`	`BIYA`	`at the bottom`
`05:21.41`	`JeffM2501`	`any one point is on another point`
`05:21.50`	`JeffM2501`	`there is no top or bottom in a triangle`
`05:21.54`	`JeffM2501`	`it's an arbitary shape`
`05:22.07`	`BIYA`	`lays on the side of another`
`05:22.20`	`JeffM2501`	`not realy`
`05:22.28`	`JeffM2501`	`it can be in any orientation`
`05:22.28`	`sgk284`	`ping SportChick`
`05:22.50`	`SportChick`	`sgk284: pong`
`05:23.45`	`BIYA`	`umm`
`05:23.54`	`BIYA`	`err`
`05:23.59`	`BIYA`	`<PROTECTED>`
`05:24.02`	`BIYA`	`there we go`
`05:24.29`	`JeffM2501`	`no`
`05:24.32`	`JeffM2501`	`it woudl end up as a line`
`05:24.49`	`BIYA`	`l <---- like that?`
`05:25.11`	`BIYA`	`Pretend thats a straight line :)`
`05:25.12`	`JeffM2501`	`or a line in any other orientation sure`
`05:25.28`	`sgk284`	`~SportChick++`
`05:25.36`	`DTRemenak`	`BIYA: a triangle has three vertices. if one of the verticies falls on the line between the other two, then the triangle is invalid, because it doesn't exist`
`05:26.25`	`BIYA`	`Let me think about that hold on`
`05:26.27`	`DTRemenak`	`a 3-d analogy would be a box where the top and bottom are on the same plane`
`05:26.35`	`MeBigFatGuy`	`or perhaps points of a triangle can not be colinear`
`05:26.39`	`DTRemenak`	`you end up with just a single plane`
`05:27.09`	`BIYA`	`flattened square?`
`05:27.14`	`DTRemenak`	`right`
`05:27.24`	`DTRemenak`	`same with a triangle...you effectively lose a dimension`
`05:27.33`	`BIYA`	`triangles cant touch?'`
`05:27.43`	`DTRemenak`	`huh?`
`05:27.46`	`BIYA`	`lol`
`05:27.54`	`BIYA`	`umm`
`05:28.07`	`DTRemenak`	`I dunno about you, but I was only talking about one triangle`
`05:28.11`	`BIYA`	`A vertices in another vertice?`
`05:28.45`	`DTRemenak`	`ok...take a triangle. let one point be the origin, (0,0). let the other point establish the x-axis (0, a)`
`05:28.49`	`BIYA`	`one vertice falls in the line of 2 other vertices its invalid`
`05:28.56`	`BIYA`	`let me get some paper`
`05:29.15`	`DTRemenak`	`if the third vertex is on the ray from (0, 0) to (0, inf), then you have only a line, not a triangle`
`05:29.47`	`DTRemenak`	`err, actually if it's on the line from (0, -inf) to (0, inf)`
`05:30.09`	`DTRemenak`	`if it's anywhere else, then it's a valid triangle, because it has three sides and such`
`05:30.41`	`BIYA`	`drew a triangle top is the origin and bottom right is the X axis`
`05:31.22`	`DTRemenak`	`ok. now where can you put the third vertex?`
`05:31.45`	`BIYA`	`connect it to the origin?`
`05:31.46`	`DTRemenak`	`if you try to put it on the x axis, you can't draw the triangle`
`05:31.53`	`BIYA`	`o`
`05:32.11`	`DTRemenak`	`if you put it anywhere else, then you can draw the triangle`
`05:32.22`	`BIYA`	`aha`
`05:34.31`	`BIYA`	`hold on dtr`
`05:35.04`	`BIYA`	`Im gonna email you somthin`
`05:35.22`	`DTRemenak`	`BIYA: or put it this way. Do you know Heron's formula (for the area of a triangle)?`
`05:35.34`	`BIYA`	`no,`
`05:35.51`	`DTRemenak`	`hm, that's too bad. it's hard to type :)`
`05:36.05`	`BIYA`	`got a link so I can read :)`
`05:36.18`	`DTRemenak`	`http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heron%27s_formula`
`05:37.37`	`BIYA`	`OMFG I think I found my problem`
`05:37.51`	`BIYA`	`Theres a LETTER in my planet`
`05:37.55`	`DTRemenak`	`heh`
`05:38.11`	`BIYA`	`Thats what I get for clicking stuff`
`05:40.09`	`BIYA`	`Umm is there a problem with quadtriangate? or what ever...`
`05:40.17`	`DTRemenak`	`say what?`
`05:40.43`	`BIYA`	`Its another step passed triangulate`
`05:40.58`	`BIYA`	`I think it adds even more triangles to the object`
`05:41.08`	`DTRemenak`	`I still have no idea what you're talking about`
`05:41.13`	`BIYA`	`hold on`
`05:43.03`	`BIYA`	`tesselate`
`05:43.06`	`trepan`	`try "clean up" in BODY (B) selection mode`
`05:43.39`	`BIYA`	`Quadrangulate`
`05:43.51`	`BIYA`	`k`
`05:44.20`	`DTRemenak`	`hmm, maybe I should actually read that post`
`05:44.54`	`BIYA`	`selection mode?`
`05:45.16`	`BIYA`	`I already did cleanup but nothing happened`
`05:45.32`	`trepan`	`oops, read the post, anim8or instead of wings this time`
`05:45.46`	`BIYA`	`?`
`05:46.31`	`BIYA`	`I think I might need that`
`05:46.51`	`bzflagwiz`	`I think you can read the whole book online at http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/flatland/`
`05:46.58`	`BIYA`	`Wish there was some visual help with this crap. Anyone know such a site?`
`05:47.03`	`BIYA`	`o`
`05:47.09`	`trepan`	`which modeller?`
`05:47.16`	`BIYA`	`Wings 3D`
`05:47.21`	`trepan`	`http://www.geocities.com/paulthepuzzles/aardvarks.html`
`05:47.25`	`BIYA`	`I work best with it...`
`05:47.26`	`trepan`	`you read the manual yet?`
`05:47.33`	`BIYA`	`yes`
`05:47.43`	`BIYA`	`skimmed mostly`
`05:47.48`	`trepan`	`don't skin`
`05:47.50`	`BIYA`	`know how to place stuff`
`05:47.54`	`trepan`	`go read it, in full`
`05:47.55`	`BIYA`	`move around`
`05:47.57`	`trepan`	`then come back`
`05:47.58`	`BIYA`	`okay`
`05:48.01`	`trepan`	`do the tutorials`
`05:48.04`	`bzflagwiz`	`Read it in front of the keyboard and build the examples - even the super simple ones`
`05:48.11`	`trepan`	`if you can't finish at least the "hand" tut., give up`
`05:48.21`	`BIYA`	`hand?`
`05:48.30`	`trepan`	`go read it`
`05:48.35`	`BIYA`	`nvm ill read itt\`
`05:48.50`	`trepan`	`http://www.wings3d.com/wings3d_manual1.6.1.pdf`
`05:50.13`	`BIYA`	`I dont have Acrobat Reader :) and im not getting it`
`05:50.49`	`bzflagwiz`	`why not? You will miss out on half of the documentation available for much software...`
`05:51.27`	`BIYA`	`Well just to let you know Trepan I have DIAL UP give it 30min. to an hour to finish`
`05:51.57`	`BIYA`	`nvm maybe 15min.`
`05:52.00`	`trepan`	`not my problem`
`05:52.25`	`BIYA`	`:)`
`05:52.39`	`BIYA`	`No its where I live is the problem`
`05:53.19`	`Thumper_`	`wegstar: fyi: PointBlank still plays... he was on one of my servers 2 days ago`
`05:53.30`	`wegstar`	`oh..`
`05:53.36`	`BIYA`	`I seen him yesterday on my server to`
`05:53.49`	`wegstar`	`hmm... oh well`
`05:56.37`	`Thumper_`	`night all... it's late (again)`
`05:56.38`	`BIYA`	`They expect me to pay $600 instalation and $90 a month for DSL that will just kick me off when there are clouds in the sky`
`05:56.43`	`BIYA`	`bye thumper`
`05:57.09`	`wegstar`	`cya`
`05:57.11`	`wegstar`	`what???`
`05:57.30`	`bzflagwiz`	`BIYA - welcome to life on the "last mile" of utility service...`
`05:57.51`	`BIYA`	`Thats the only people I can get internet from. DirectWay`
`05:58.10`	`bzflagwiz`	`Oh - not DSL then. Satellite.`
`05:58.11`	`BIYA`	`Verizon said there will be service in my area but that was 2 years ago`
`05:58.22`	`BIYA`	`well that`
`05:58.36`	`BIYA`	`thought it was the same well guess I was wrong again`
`05:59.04`	`wegstar`	`...`
`06:00.07`	`BIYA`	`BTW do I need acrobat reader to read this file?`
`06:00.43`	`bzflagwiz`	`The PDF file? Either acrobat reader or some other tool that reads PDF files...`
`06:00.54`	`BIYA`	`do you know of any?`
`06:01.32`	`bzflagwiz`	`Why not just get acrobat reader? You probably have a copy if it on CD already if you have ever bought software on CD...`
`06:02.09`	`BIYA`	`I keep the software that came with the computer.... ow big is acrobat reader?`
`06:02.17`	`BIYA`	`I thought it was like 100mb`
`06:03.13`	`bzflagwiz`	`There is a version that is 13.1 MB`
`06:03.20`	`BIYA`	`O_o`
`06:04.12`	`*** join/#bzflag newbie_dont (~janko@dly102.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)`
`06:04.34`	`BIYA`	`http://www.jawspdf.com/`
`06:04.55`	`BIYA`	`nvm`
`06:05.06`	`wegstar`	`wt...`
`06:05.27`	`wegstar`	`here grab this : http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html`
`06:05.45`	`BIYA`	`I found somthing smaller`
`06:05.51`	`wegstar`	`er.. ok then`
`06:06.09`	`BIYA`	`http://www.cutepdf.com/ Shareware I think`
`06:07.51`	`BIYA`	`now just to find one that actually edits them`
`06:07.55`	`wegstar`	`http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html <- standard, original`
`06:08.02`	`wegstar`	`oh that costs big $$$`
`06:08.09`	`BIYA`	`;)`
`06:08.10`	`MeBigFatGuy`	`reader is free`
`06:08.15`	`wegstar`	`you can create.. but to edit....`
`06:08.34`	`BIYA`	`http://www.cutepdf.com/Products/CutePDF/writer.asp`
`06:08.52`	`wegstar`	`exactly`
`06:08.56`	`wegstar`	`without the advanced features...`
`06:09.09`	`BIYA`	`Do I need them?`
`06:09.16`	`wegstar`	`no...`
`06:09.24`	`BIYA`	`:)`
`06:09.29`	`wegstar`	`You just need a free reader to read the file...`
`06:09.41`	`bzflagwiz`	`cutepdf requires ghostscript as well... an additional (free) download`
`06:09.47`	`wegstar`	`yeah..`
`06:09.52`	`BIYA`	`Yeah I just noticed`
`06:10.01`	`bzflagwiz`	`In the time it takes you to find a smaller pdf reader, you could just download the real one...`
`06:10.45`	`wegstar`	`I believe there is another more advanced open-source alternative somewhere....`
`06:10.47`	`bzflagwiz`	`Go to the url that wegstar posted (for adobe) and pick your OS and "dial up" as your connection speed.`
`06:11.09`	`BIYA`	`http://www.autoimager.com/more_info/10/free-pdf-file-editor-software.htm This is not a pdf editor but it says it is`
`06:11.23`	`BIYA`	`k`
`06:11.33`	`wegstar`	`err.. right///`
`06:12.05`	`wegstar`	`PDF creator, that is...`
`06:12.55`	`MeBigFatGuy`	`apache has a one`
`06:13.35`	`wegstar`	`hmm..`
`06:14.02`	`BIYA`	`19.8mb`
`06:15.22`	`BIYA`	`nvm weird the site said 19.8 but the Download tool says 5.8`
`06:15.31`	`BIYA`	`5.7`
`06:15.38`	`BIYA`	`26 seconds :)`
`06:15.51`	`BIYA`	`omg`
`06:15.53`	`BIYA`	`nvm`
`06:18.47`	`MeBigFatGuy`	`http://xml.apache.org/fop/`
`06:19.48`	`wegstar`	`hmm'`
`06:20.25`	`BIYA`	`File cannot be downloaded. Unable to access server (408). Please try`
`06:21.25`	`wegstar`	`...`
`06:21.41`	`BIYA`	`thats what it said`
`06:24.45`	`BIYA`	`which version of fop do I get?`
`06:28.23`	`wegstar`	`?`
`06:28.35`	`BIYA`	`I got it`
`06:40.05`	`BIYA`	`I play around to much`
`06:40.40`	`cosmos`	`http://tinyurl.com/49etv`
`06:43.21`	`wegstar`	`?`
`06:43.29`	`wegstar`	`wth dcc?`
`06:43.50`	`*** join/#bzflag Matt_ (BIYA@dialup-4.129.85.188.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)`
`06:44.09`	`Matt_`	`Err I hate my isp`
`06:47.46`	`*** join/#bzflag Matt_ (BIYA@dialup-4.129.85.188.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)`
`06:48.16`	`Matt_`	`umm`
`06:49.48`	`cosmos`	`heh classic, guy uses thief to steal the other teams flag from a teammate then cap it`
`06:50.08`	`BIYA`	`I hate my isp`
`06:57.43`	`BIYA`	`http://www.geocities.com/paulthepuzzles/BridgeWeld.html`
`06:57.53`	`BIYA`	`wow nice place for some 3dEditing help`
`06:58.04`	`*** join/#bzflag ToughShooter (~ts@pD9EA7F87.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`06:58.52`	`BIYA`	`Now I see what trepan ment by me adding tunnel to the rock objects he made....`
`07:00.43`	`JeffM2501`	`<PROTECTED>`
`07:01.38`	`BIYA`	`<PROTECTED>`
`07:07.16`	`*** join/#bzflag gvdm (~gvdm@210-246-12-235.paradise.net.nz)`
`07:07.27`	`BIYA`	`Well atleast I know what extrude does`
`07:16.58`	`wegstar`	`nite all`
`07:17.31`	`BIYA`	`bye`
`07:17.56`	`*** part/#bzflag wegstar (~foo@adsl-67-121-190-35.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net)`
`07:27.48`	`BIYA`	`This X-Chat thing is weird`
`07:28.07`	`BIYA`	`DTR you here? Got some MORE questions`
`07:28.17`	`DTRemenak`	`I am here`
`07:28.36`	`DTRemenak`	`(and not surprised you have more questions :) )`
`07:28.41`	`DTRemenak`	`it's a good thing ;)`
`07:29.01`	`BIYA`	`My teachers say asking questions help you learn`
`07:29.49`	`*** join/#bzflag newbie__dont (~Miranda@fw.newitech.pl)`
`07:29.50`	`DTRemenak`	`it does, that's why it's a good thing`
`07:30.00`	`DTRemenak`	`it's one of the best ways to learn`
`07:30.10`	`BIYA`	`http://www.pagodaproductions.com/tiki/tiki-page.php?pageName=Wings3D+Basic+Tutorial`
`07:30.21`	`BIYA`	`The second best way is to read`
`07:30.56`	`BIYA`	`Everything there I alread know how to do`
`07:34.14`	`BIYA`	`Extrude separates the objects when moved and Extrude Region keeps them together.... interesting`
`07:34.44`	`BIYA`	`O and my question was how do I find the Degenerate in an object full of lines?`
`07:35.59`	`JeffM2501`	`lines?`
`07:36.34`	`BIYA`	`well from a veiw the mesh is made out of triangles but those triangles are made out of lines....`
`07:36.41`	`JeffM2501`	`edges`
`07:36.48`	`JeffM2501`	`those are the edges of the faces`
`07:36.53`	`JeffM2501`	`the object is made out of faces`
`07:36.53`	`BIYA`	`:)`
`07:36.55`	`BIYA`	`yes those`
`07:37.02`	`JeffM2501`	`it's the FACE that you have to find that is degenerate`
`07:37.06`	`BIYA`	`yes`
`07:37.09`	`JeffM2501`	`edges can not be degenerate`
`07:37.13`	`BIYA`	`Learned that off of the site`
`07:37.21`	`JeffM2501`	`do you understand what a face is?`
`07:37.22`	`BIYA`	`o`
`07:37.25`	`JeffM2501`	`it's very important`
`07:37.32`	`JeffM2501`	`it's the core of what your doing`
`07:38.16`	`BIYA`	`Need to think how to explain it`
`07:38.55`	`BIYA`	`Okay the tutorial doesnt tell me what a face is but im sure I know what it is....`
`07:39.07`	`BIYA`	`basic lesson`
`07:39.09`	`BIYA`	`http://www.pagodaproductions.com/tiki/tiki-page.php?pageName=Wings3D+Basic+Tutorial`
`07:39.15`	`JeffM2501`	`I know what a face is`
`07:39.18`	`JeffM2501`	`explain it to me`
`07:39.19`	`BIYA`	`step2`
`07:39.27`	`JeffM2501`	`so I know you know`
`07:39.30`	`JeffM2501`	`think of it as a test :)`
`07:39.54`	`BIYA`	`Harder then Geography`
`07:42.22`	`JeffM2501`	`not realy`
`07:42.49`	`BIYA`	`to you it isnt`
`07:42.54`	`*** join/#bzflag mmu_man (revol@ALyon-112-1-4-102.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr)`
`07:43.05`	`JeffM2501`	`they actualy share a number of concepts :)`
`07:45.15`	`BIYA`	`what geography and faces?`
`07:45.27`	`JeffM2501`	`geography and geometry :)`
`07:46.45`	`BIYA`	`how? thats countries versus faces virtices and such`
`07:47.03`	`JeffM2501`	`it's all about shapes :)`
`07:47.23`	`JeffM2501`	`so can you explain what a face is?`
`07:48.02`	`BIYA`	`Not really triangles come to mind`
`07:48.14`	`JeffM2501`	`if I gave you a cube`
`07:48.18`	`JeffM2501`	`where would the faces be?`
`07:48.39`	`BIYA`	`sides`
`07:48.46`	`BIYA`	`6 I think`
`07:48.51`	`JeffM2501`	`ok`
`07:48.58`	`JeffM2501`	`what would make that face degenerate?`
`07:49.36`	`BIYA`	`making it flat?`
`07:49.54`	`JeffM2501`	`define "flat" ?`
`07:50.21`	`BIYA`	`Take the top face and puting it down where the bottom face is`
`07:50.40`	`JeffM2501`	`we are only talking about one face`
`07:50.42`	`JeffM2501`	`not all faces`
`07:50.49`	`BIYA`	`o`
`07:50.53`	`JeffM2501`	`if you did that to the entire object`
`07:50.59`	`JeffM2501`	`what faces would be degenerate?`
`07:51.06`	`BIYA`	`did what./`
`07:51.42`	`JeffM2501`	`made the cube "flat"`
`07:51.56`	`BIYA`	`o so now were talking about more than one face`
`07:52.29`	`JeffM2501`	`I'm just tring to use your example to help`
`07:52.30`	`BIYA`	`2 I guess`
`07:52.33`	`JeffM2501`	`2?`
`07:52.38`	`JeffM2501`	`why only 2?`
`07:52.43`	`JeffM2501`	`don't guess`
`07:52.47`	`JeffM2501`	`think about it and be sure`
`07:52.52`	`JeffM2501`	`use paper and props if you must`
`07:53.07`	`BIYA`	`draw a cube and what? smush it?`
`07:53.17`	`JeffM2501`	`what ever helps you visualise it`
`07:53.32`	`JeffM2501`	`modeling requires you to visualise in your mind before you commit it to geometry`
`07:54.43`	`BIYA`	`all will be degenerate`
`07:54.48`	`JeffM2501`	`no`
`07:54.52`	`BIYA`	`err`
`07:55.13`	`BIYA`	`O`
`07:55.15`	`BIYA`	`wait`
`07:55.16`	`JeffM2501`	`the deformation you are describing is as if you were to like step on it and sqish it right?`
`07:55.36`	`BIYA`	`degenerate takes an object and make it into a line?`
`07:55.41`	`JeffM2501`	`no`
`07:55.45`	`JeffM2501`	`it takes a face`
`07:55.49`	`JeffM2501`	`and makes it into a line`
`07:55.51`	`BIYA`	`k`
`07:56.01`	`JeffM2501`	`are you talking about taking a cube and squishing it?`
`07:56.07`	`JeffM2501`	`by like steping on the top?`
`07:56.11`	`JeffM2501`	`and flatening it out?`
`07:56.20`	`JeffM2501`	`is that what you meant by "flatening"?`
`07:56.33`	`BIYA`	`A "Plane"`
`07:56.47`	`JeffM2501`	`ok so making a box into a plane right?`
`07:56.54`	`BIYA`	`yup`
`07:56.56`	`JeffM2501`	`ok`
`07:57.07`	`JeffM2501`	`how many faces of the 6 are now degenerate?`
`07:57.13`	`JeffM2501`	`how many have 0 surface area`
`07:57.44`	`BIYA`	`sides`
`07:57.49`	`JeffM2501`	`how many?`
`07:57.55`	`BIYA`	`4`
`07:58.01`	`JeffM2501`	`very good`
`07:58.09`	`JeffM2501`	`why are those sides degenerate?`
`07:58.23`	`BIYA`	`there a line? No surface area`
`07:58.37`	`JeffM2501`	`now imagene the same thing happening to a triangle`
`07:59.06`	`JeffM2501`	`regardless of it's orientation`
`07:59.07`	`BIYA`	`3 vertices`
`07:59.21`	`BIYA`	`isnt it 2 faces?`
`07:59.26`	`JeffM2501`	`no`
`07:59.32`	`JeffM2501`	`a face is a single polygon`
`07:59.44`	`JeffM2501`	`how can a triangle be 2 faces?`
`07:59.45`	`BIYA`	`o`
`07:59.51`	`JeffM2501`	`well unless you mean each side`
`07:59.52`	`BIYA`	`nvm`
`07:59.55`	`BIYA`	`lol`
`08:00.03`	`JeffM2501`	`some editors let you deal with the "backface"`
`08:00.20`	`BIYA`	`yeah`
`08:00.25`	`JeffM2501`	`the simplset way to find degenerates is to look for faces that have more then one vert refrence that is the same`
`08:00.41`	`BIYA`	`vert refrence?`
`08:00.58`	`JeffM2501`	`the easset way to do that is to do a "weld" on all verts and have the software merge verts tht shae the same space`
`08:01.12`	`JeffM2501`	`a vert dosnt' need to be only in one face`
`08:01.15`	`JeffM2501`	`they can be shared`
`08:01.22`	`JeffM2501`	`so faces are made of vert refences`
`08:01.30`	`JeffM2501`	`like the corner of a box`
`08:01.36`	`JeffM2501`	`that vert is shared by 3 faces`
`08:01.47`	`BIYA`	`o`
`08:02.29`	`JeffM2501`	`does wingz have a "weld" feature?`
`08:02.39`	`BIYA`	`yes but I never used it...`
`08:02.40`	`JeffM2501`	`where it will combine verts that are near each other?`
`08:02.50`	`BIYA`	`hold on`
`08:02.51`	`JeffM2501`	`it's a REALY good thing to learn`
`08:03.15`	`BIYA`	`Well thats why im here`
`08:03.28`	`JeffM2501`	`if you weld all the verts in a mesh, then the degenerates that had 2 verts in the same space will get those coincedent verts merged`
`08:03.46`	`JeffM2501`	`well we are not a wingz support channel`
`08:03.53`	`BIYA`	`okay im gonna make one sphere`
`08:04.14`	`JeffM2501`	`prims usualy don't have degenerates`
`08:04.21`	`JeffM2501`	`they only happen after you deform thme`
`08:04.27`	`BIYA`	`should i screw it up?`
`08:04.29`	`JeffM2501`	`you arn't using a scale of 0 on anything are you?`
`08:04.41`	`BIYA`	`scale of zero?`
`08:04.44`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`08:04.46`	`BIYA`	`the size?`
`08:04.49`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`08:04.54`	`JeffM2501`	`0 is invalid for a size`
`08:04.55`	`BIYA`	`then I couldnt see it`
`08:04.58`	`BIYA`	`whats the point`
`08:04.59`	`JeffM2501`	`bingo`
`08:05.09`	`JeffM2501`	`well some people try to do 0 in one axis`
`08:05.15`	`JeffM2501`	`to make stuff "flat"`
`08:05.21`	`JeffM2501`	`but that just screws up faces`
`08:05.58`	`BIYA`	`I did that in my planet object to make the ring`
`08:06.13`	`BIYA`	`did you see the screenshot in the bzbb forums?`
`08:06.27`	`BIYA`	`I flattened it to the middle edges`
`08:08.27`	`JeffM2501`	`and it had problems at first didn't it?`
`08:08.51`	`BIYA`	`what do you mean?`
`08:09.12`	`JeffM2501`	`wasn't that the first model you had the concave face problem with?`
`08:09.18`	`BIYA`	`yes`
`08:09.28`	`JeffM2501`	`scaling that thing screws things up`
`08:09.28`	`BIYA`	`then you told me to trianglate it`
`08:09.33`	`BIYA`	`doh`
`08:09.38`	`JeffM2501`	`see`
`08:09.50`	`JeffM2501`	`then you got the degenerates issues :)`
`08:09.52`	`BIYA`	`so dont make the ring flat?`
`08:10.01`	`brlcad`	`JeffM2501: fyi, I got the binaries built so I'll be posting them up in the dmg later today`
`08:10.04`	`JeffM2501`	`not unless you understand how to fix the degenerates`
`08:10.08`	`JeffM2501`	`brlcad, cool`
`08:10.13`	`JeffM2501`	`I just did a build too`
`08:10.15`	`JeffM2501`	`to make sure I could`
`08:10.24`	`brlcad`	`I'm a bit surprised it built :)`
`08:11.01`	`brlcad`	`building is usually the easy part, though`
`08:11.23`	`BIYA`	`So making that thing flat made it degenerate? cause its one round line?`
`08:11.25`	`brlcad`	`testing the 10.2 compat and making the pretty properly-mounting dmg is that harder part`
`08:11.39`	`JeffM2501`	`BIYA, it can make some of the faces degenerate yes`
`08:11.42`	`*** join/#bzflag _Manu_ (~jujibo@98.Red-80-36-59.pooles.rima-tde.net)`
`08:12.00`	`JeffM2501`	`the ones that used to be along the axis of flatening`
`08:12.05`	`JeffM2501`	`like the sides of the cube`
`08:12.07`	`JeffM2501`	`in the example`
`08:12.59`	`BIYA`	`I did this.. took a torus and selected the top 3 edgesall around and set flatten`
`08:13.08`	`BIYA`	`then flatten it then did the same to the bottom`
`08:13.25`	`JeffM2501`	`what happend to the faces inbetween that and the bottom?`
`08:13.32`	`JeffM2501`	`the ones that used to be vertical?`
`08:14.25`	`BIYA`	`flat`
`08:14.33`	`BIYA`	`like the 4 sides of the cube`
`08:14.35`	`JeffM2501`	`to a line maybe?`
`08:14.40`	`BIYA`	`yes`
`08:14.41`	`JeffM2501`	`and that would make them.....?`
`08:14.47`	`BIYA`	`degenerate`
`08:15.00`	`JeffM2501`	`so you woudld have had to do what to them?`
`08:15.08`	`BIYA`	`fix them`
`08:15.14`	`JeffM2501`	`there is no way to fix them`
`08:15.19`	`JeffM2501`	`they arn't allowed`
`08:15.19`	`BIYA`	`not make them all flat`
`08:15.22`	`JeffM2501`	`you remove them`
`08:15.28`	`BIYA`	`how`
`08:15.39`	`JeffM2501`	`how ever you remove a face in your modeler`
`08:15.43`	`BIYA`	`hold on let me make this sphere flat`
`08:15.43`	`JeffM2501`	`that should be a very basic feature`
`08:21.56`	`BIYA`	`got it`
`08:21.59`	`BIYA`	`finally`
`08:23.59`	`BIYA`	`umm`
`08:24.02`	`BIYA`	`now what`
`08:24.16`	`JeffM2501`	`well not knowing what you did`
`08:24.23`	`JeffM2501`	`or what you are even trying to do`
`08:24.25`	`JeffM2501`	`I dono`
`08:24.55`	`BIYA`	`I flattened a torus... all the way till its like paper thin`
`08:25.11`	`scanline`	`trying to make a circle with a hole in it? :P`
`08:25.19`	`JeffM2501`	`a sphere?`
`08:25.27`	`BIYA`	`Naa already did :_P`
`08:25.32`	`JeffM2501`	`ok`
`08:25.34`	`JeffM2501`	`what of it`
`08:25.38`	`BIYA`	`no a flat donut`
`08:25.49`	`JeffM2501`	`I know`
`08:25.51`	`JeffM2501`	`what of it`
`08:25.54`	`JeffM2501`	`if it's good use it`
`08:26.02`	`JeffM2501`	`if it has degenerates`
`08:26.03`	`BIYA`	`The faces are degenerate`
`08:26.04`	`JeffM2501`	`remove them`
`08:26.09`	`JeffM2501`	`so remove them`
`08:26.11`	`BIYA`	`thats what im stuck on`
`08:26.13`	`trepan`	`use 'clean-up'`
`08:26.19`	`BIYA`	`aha`
`08:26.25`	`trepan`	`(as suggested quite some time ago)`
`08:26.33`	`JeffM2501`	`he can't read`
`08:26.58`	`trepan`	`and here i thought it was a comprehension problem`
`08:27.15`	`BIYA`	`who cant read?`
`08:27.17`	`JeffM2501`	`it's lag`
`08:27.43`	`BIYA`	`I did cleanup but nothing changed`
`08:27.57`	`JeffM2501`	`degenerates have no area`
`08:28.01`	`JeffM2501`	`they don't show up`
`08:28.08`	`JeffM2501`	`so why would antying visualy change?`
`08:28.20`	`BIYA`	`Well that would help!!!!!`
`08:28.23`	`BIYA`	`but anyway`
`08:28.27`	`JeffM2501`	`think about it`
`08:28.33`	`BIYA`	`I understand`
`08:28.40`	`trepan`	`look for changes in the poly/vertex/edge counts`
`08:28.55`	`BIYA`	`they have no surface so they cant be seen`
`08:29.14`	`JeffM2501`	`read what he typed`
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`08:44.37`	`JeffM2501`	`that's one reason people get anoyed at you, it seems like you lack even the common sense how to ask knowledge`
`08:44.37`	`JeffM2501`	`then last time it had degenerates`
`08:44.37`	`JeffM2501`	`this time it does not`
`08:44.37`	`BIYA`	`Well cleanup works :)`
`08:44.37`	`JeffM2501`	`that is why features are added`
`08:44.38`	`JeffM2501`	`and documented`
`08:44.38`	`trepan`	`"ColDet Octree obstacles = 0" means no objects (forget "group"?)`
`08:44.38`	`BIYA`	`so make planets and the ring them highlight them all and select clean up :)....`
`08:44.38`	`JeffM2501`	`he allways forgets the group instance`
`08:44.38`	`BIYA`	`I was in a hurry`
`08:44.38`	`CIA-5`	`BZFlag: 03pimpinella * 10bzflag/src/bzflag/playing.cxx: check pointer before use`
`08:44.38`	`BIYA`	`so I didnt put it there`
`08:44.38`	`JeffM2501`	`if your not going to add a group instance`
`08:44.43`	`JeffM2501`	`why even bother puting them in a group?`
`08:44.45`	`BIYA`	`then dont define it`
`08:44.52`	`BIYA`	`yeah yeah I know :)`
`08:44.59`	`BIYA`	`told me that yesterday`
`08:45.12`	`JeffM2501`	`then why do you send me the output file`
`08:45.21`	`JeffM2501`	`when you KNOW it's from a bogus file?`
`08:45.33`	`BIYA`	`You expect me to know if those are errors or not?`
`08:45.50`	`JeffM2501`	`well yeah`
`08:45.55`	`JeffM2501`	`since errors say "error"`
`08:46.01`	`JeffM2501`	`I do expect you to read what you post`
`08:46.04`	`BIYA`	`Just making sure by an expert`
`08:46.24`	`JeffM2501`	`no your not thinking and asking to be feed answers`
`08:46.31`	`BIYA`	`Well the last time it said that when I wenat to go see it it was there`
`08:46.45`	`JeffM2501`	`it said that last time you forgot the group`
`08:46.45`	`BIYA`	`wasnt there*`
`08:47.10`	`BIYA`	`it was there cause I did;nt put the group?:)`
`08:47.16`	`BIYA`	`wasnt*`
`08:47.19`	`BIYA`	`errr`
`08:47.24`	`JeffM2501`	`yes`
`08:47.31`	`BIYA`	`okay`
`08:47.32`	`JeffM2501`	`that's what trepan has been teling you`
`08:47.38`	`JeffM2501`	`and you say "I know, I'm lasy"`
`08:47.45`	`BIYA`	`err its 3:47 in the morning over here`
`08:47.54`	`JeffM2501`	`ok`
`08:47.55`	`BIYA`	`I am`
`08:47.56`	`JeffM2501`	`and...?`
`08:48.01`	`BIYA`	`nothing`
`08:48.11`	`JeffM2501`	`if your tired go to sleep`
`08:48.35`	`BIYA`	`Learning`
`08:48.42`	`JeffM2501`	`it's just silly little models, nothing to kill yourself over :)`
`08:48.58`	`BIYA`	`It all most did ;/`
`08:49.04`	`JeffM2501`	`why let it?`
`08:49.08`	`JeffM2501`	`it's just some math`
`08:49.09`	`*** join/#bzflag tupone (~Tupone@host-84-222-139-127.cust-adsl.tiscali.it)`
`08:49.24`	`BIYA`	`I got it straight now....`
`08:49.24`	`JeffM2501`	`I'm sure tupone can help you with what ever else you need ;)`
`08:49.35`	`BIYA`	`What else is there/`
`08:49.36`	`JeffM2501`	`then have fun with it`
`08:49.36`	`BIYA`	`?`
`08:49.38`	`JeffM2501`	`lots`
`08:49.42`	`BIYA`	`except reading`
`08:49.43`	`JeffM2501`	`read more tutorials`
`08:49.45`	`BIYA`	`tutorials`
`08:49.49`	`BIYA`	`see`
`08:49.50`	`BIYA`	`:)`
`08:50.04`	`BIYA`	`lol`
`08:53.45`	`BIYA`	`added the group and it didnt workkkk!!!!!!!!!!!!`
`08:56.01`	`BIYA`	`I think I know now..... (Im talking to myself :)`
`09:05.18`	`BIYA`	`fuck youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu all`
`09:06.16`	kyelewis`	`...`
`09:06.49`	`tupone`	`BIYA watch the language`
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`09:10.42`	`CBG`	`hi :)`
`09:13.51`	`_Manu_`	`anybody knows why global login is not working?`
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`09:17.18`	`trepan`	`_Manu_: works for me`
`09:20.16`	`*** part/#bzflag holiday (doc@I3203.i.pppool.de)`
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`09:33.47`	`_Manu_`	`trepan, not for me.. nor others.. :(`
`09:35.26`	`_Manu_`	`trepan, definitively, list server is down..`
`09:38.13`	`_Manu_`	`or it's a viper server issue :(`
`09:39.39`	`_Manu_`	`for some unknown reason viper got disconected from list server :(`
`10:15.25`	`Pimpi`	`prolly need a command to re-add to listserver`
`10:17.53`	`_Manu_`	`yes, can be added by hand :)`
`10:35.43`	`ToughShooter`	`~brfquery bzflag.secretplace.us:5255`
`10:35.54`	`ToughShooter`	`~bzfquery bzflag.secretplace.us:5255`
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`14:41.37`	`Thumper_`	`SportChick: ping`
`14:42.06`	`SportChick`	`Thumper_: pong`
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`14:54.41`	`Birdie`	`GvzEvxre ping`
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`14:58.40`	`wegstar_`	`morning all`
`15:00.36`	`CBG`	`hi`
`15:07.31`	`*** join/#bzflag spldart (~james@adsl-70-240-212-220.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net)`
`15:11.47`	`spldart`	`~bzf 67.10.210.195:5154`
`15:12.04`	`spldart`	`hrm`
`15:12.10`	`spldart`	`~bzf67.10.210.195:5154`
`15:12.31`	`spldart`	`~bzfquery 67.10.210.195:5154`
`15:12.40`	`spldart`	`alls quiet`
`15:12.58`	`*** join/#bzflag TheRedBaron (~d8ada652@rw08.de)`
`15:17.13`	`wegstar_`	`no...`
`15:27.06`	`Thumper_`	`~karma SportChick`
`15:27.06`	`ibot`	`sportchick has karma of 88`
`15:27.11`	`Thumper_`	`~SportChick++`
`15:27.23`	`wegstar`	`?`
`15:27.43`	`spldart`	`~karma spldart`
`15:27.43`	`ibot`	`spldart has neutral karma`
`15:27.45`	`spldart`	`hehehe`
`15:28.03`	`Thumper_`	`~karma SportChick`
`15:28.03`	`ibot`	`sportchick has karma of 89`
`15:28.25`	`Thumper_`	`slightly late karma boost... better late than never I guess`
`15:28.50`	`Thumper_`	`~karma Thumper`
`15:28.50`	`ibot`	`thumper has neutral karma`
`15:28.53`	`Thumper_`	`hehe`
`15:29.00`	`RedBaron2`	`~karma redbaron2`
`15:29.00`	`ibot`	`redbaron2 has neutral karma`
`15:29.03`	`RedBaron2`	`:)`
`15:29.13`	`Thumper_`	`~karma jpa_`
`15:29.13`	`ibot`	`jpa_ has karma of 1`
`15:29.23`	`Thumper_`	`~karma jpa--`
`15:29.23`	`ibot`	`jpa-- has neutral karma`
`15:29.33`	`Thumper_`	`~jpa_--`
`15:29.52`	`Thumper_`	`~karma jpa_`
`15:29.52`	`ibot`	`jpa_ has neutral karma`
`15:30.16`	`spldart`	`ibot is chastising me`
`15:30.19`	`Thumper_`	`can't have jpa ahead... don't think he deserves much positive karma ;) (sorry jpa)`
`15:30.26`	`Thumper_`	`yup me2`
`15:30.39`	`SportChick`	`~Thumper++`
`15:30.45`	`Thumper_`	`ooh!`
`15:30.55`	`SportChick`	`:)`
`15:30.57`	`SportChick`	`~Thumper++`
`15:31.20`	`Thumper_`	`scarey.. never had positive karma before...`
`15:31.50`	`TheRedBaron`	`karma wars.... oh joy.`
`15:32.01`	`Thumper_`	`at least it's warm today... I can wash my cars... finally above freezing so the hoses thaw`
`15:32.15`	`wegstar`	`:)`
`15:32.40`	`TheRedBaron`	`~weather 32303`
`15:32.42`	`Thumper_`	`+5C... warm! (going to +15C today)`
`15:32.54`	`wegstar`	`!weather ksfo`
`15:32.56`	`guu`	`wegstar: The current temperature in San Francisco International, California is 54�F (6:56 AM PST on March 29, 2005). Conditions: Light Rain Mist. Humidity: 100%. Dew Point: 54�F. Pressure: 30.07 in (1018 hPa). Visibility: 6.0 miles (9.7 kilometers). UV: 0 out of 16`
`15:33.09`	`spldart`	`~weather ksgr`
`15:33.11`	`wegstar`	`:(`
`15:33.12`	`SportChick`	`!weather klax`
`15:33.14`	`guu`	`SportChick: The current temperature in Los Angeles International, California is 57�F (6:50 AM PST on March 29, 2005). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 48%. Dew Point: 37�F. Wind: WNW at 8 mph (13 km/h). Pressure: 30.04 in (1017 hPa). Visibility: 10.0 miles (16.1 kilometers). UV: 1 out of 16`
`15:33.17`	`TheRedBaron`	`!weather 32303`
`15:33.18`	`guu`	`TheRedBaron: The current temperature in Tallahassee, Florida is 68�F (9:53 AM EST on March 29, 2005). Conditions: Scattered Clouds. Humidity: 35%. Dew Point: 39�F. Wind: NNW at 13 mph (20 km/h). Pressure: 29.97 in (1015 hPa). Visibility: 10.0 miles (16.1 kilometers). UV: 4 out of 16`
`15:33.21`	`wegstar`	`awww..`
`15:33.31`	`TheRedBaron`	`its beautiful here...`
`15:33.43`	`SportChick`	`!weather 90277`
`15:33.45`	`guu`	`SportChick: The current temperature in Redondo Beach, California is 57�F (6:56 AM PST on March 29, 2005). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 59%. Dew Point: 43�F. Pressure: 30.04 in (1017 hPa). Visibility: 30.0 miles (48.3 kilometers). UV: 1 out of 12`
`15:33.59`	`wegstar`	`>:(`
`15:35.18`	`*** join/#bzflag Blue_Eyes (~d55c2010@rw08.de)`
`15:35.21`	`RedBaron2`	`the weather is great in FL :D`
`15:35.21`	`Thumper_`	`!weather 71624`
`15:36.01`	`Thumper_`	`~weather 71624`
`15:36.43`	`Thumper_`	`~weather CYYZ`
`15:48.14`	*** join/#bzflag crko` (jan@crko.user)
`15:49.21`	`*** join/#bzflag TheRedBaron (~d8ada652@rw08.de)`
`15:59.29`	`*** join/#bzflag blast007 (~blast007@198.150.76.4)`
`16:00.50`	`*** join/#bzflag wegstar_ (~foo@adsl-67-121-190-35.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net)`
`16:07.41`	`*** join/#bzflag mmu_man (revol@ALyon-112-1-15-134.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr)`
`16:07.53`	`*** join/#bzflag newbie_dont (~janko@dly102.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)`
`16:08.30`	`*** join/#bzflag CBG (~CannonBal@cpc3-stme1-5-0-cust91.cdif.cable.ntl.com)`
`16:08.46`	`CBG`	`I found a bug...`
`16:09.07`	`CBG`	`hello...`
`16:10.16`	`TheRedBaron`	`just state it.... alot of the devs read the logs`
`16:12.23`	`CBG`	`Okay, basically, when you shoot the GM as you go through a portal, you die.`
`16:14.05`	`wegstar`	`er..`
`16:14.20`	`*** join/#bzflag Birdie (~birdie@d54C34D0B.access.telenet.be)`
`16:14.23`	`CBG`	`"er.." what?`
`16:14.28`	`wegstar`	`did it say you killed yourself?`
`16:14.48`	`CBG`	`im not sure, but I died.`
`16:14.53`	`TheRedBaron`	`CBG, does this work with any portal?`
`16:14.54`	`wegstar`	`...`
`16:15.08`	`CBG`	`it happened twice and someone else said they knew about it too`
`16:15.08`	`TheRedBaron`	`could it be the portal 'ports' the bullet back to you? there are those...`
`16:15.15`	`CBG`	`no`
`16:15.17`	`wegstar`	`yeah..`
`16:15.26`	`CBG`	`this was on the 3x3 tuxee rabit server`
`16:15.30`	`wegstar`	`hmm`
`16:15.37`	`CBG`	`the portals go from one side of the map to the other`
`16:15.50`	`wegstar`	`try again.. see if it says you shot yourself...`
`16:16.04`	`CBG`	`go try it yourself if you don't believe me.`
`16:16.10`	`CBG`	`ok fine`
`16:16.11`	`CBG`	`brb`
`16:16.31`	`TheRedBaron`	`CBG, that map is written by a script... talk to the server owner`
`16:16.57`	`wegstar`	`hmm`
`16:17.07`	`wegstar`	`an unknown world weapon?`
`16:17.09`	`spldart`	`Just tried it on my map`
`16:17.14`	`wegstar`	`death object?`
`16:17.17`	`spldart`	`shooting one after another while going through teleporters`
`16:17.21`	`spldart`	`No death`
`16:17.37`	`wegstar`	`yep..`
`16:17.44`	`wegstar`	`same here too`
`16:17.50`	`TheRedBaron`	`spldart, what did you do? download the map and try it?`
`16:18.07`	`spldart`	`No I just tried my map... To see if it was a software bug`
`16:18.15`	`spldart`	`I think this relates to the map he is referring too`
`16:18.19`	`TheRedBaron`	`yea.. Its no software bug for sure`
`16:18.30`	`TheRedBaron`	`the tuxee map is written by a python script IIRC`
`16:18.40`	`TheRedBaron`	`so its most likely a bug in the script`
`16:18.46`	`wegstar`	`death object or some world weapon OR lag`
`16:18.46`	`spldart`	`yeah`
`16:18.54`	`CBG`	`back`
`16:18.59`	`blast007`	`I think tuxee has a lower _gmActivationTime`
`16:19.02`	`TheRedBaron`	`$10 says its in the script`
`16:19.13`	`wegstar`	`what does it say?`
`16:19.13`	`CBG`	`this time i just stood away from the portal and fired gm into it`
`16:19.18`	`CBG`	`it said I shot myeslf`
`16:19.21`	`wegstar`	`LAG`
`16:19.27`	`TheRedBaron`	`SCRIPT`
`16:19.28`	`blast007`	`last I checked, they had it set at 0.1 seconds instead of the default 0.5`
`16:19.37`	`wegstar`	`'tis lag`
`16:19.43`	`TheRedBaron`	`Cbg, were you moving or standing still? did you lock on to something?`
`16:19.54`	`blast007`	`not lag or the script...it's the BZDB configuration`
`16:19.59`	`wegstar`	`...`
`16:20.00`	`blast007`	`I've done it myself`
`16:20.00`	`CBG`	`i was not going through the portal`
`16:20.00`	`TheRedBaron`	`CBG, is it just one portal, or any portal?`
`16:20.11`	`CBG`	`i did not lock onto anything`
`16:20.17`	`*** join/#bzflag _Manu_ (~jujibo@98.Red-80-36-59.pooles.rima-tde.net)`
`16:20.25`	`TheRedBaron`	`CBG wher you moving forward? backward?`
`16:20.54`	`TheRedBaron`	`moving at all?`
`16:21.11`	`TheRedBaron`	`if he was standing still, and he didn't lock on to anything... then its the script.`
`16:21.15`	`wegstar`	`then blast007 must be right :P`
`16:22.08`	`TheRedBaron`	`if he locked on, and was moving forward or backward... then blast007 was right... but if not, and it only happens at that 1 portal. then its the script`
`16:22.30`	`wegstar`	`but what could have done that?`
`16:22.33`	`blast007`	`It happened to me when I was moving forward, and not even going through a portal`
`16:22.47`	`CBG`	`seems to be any portal`
`16:22.58`	`wegstar`	`hmmm`
`16:23.01`	`CBG`	`i was not locking onto anything`
`16:23.02`	`TheRedBaron`	`wegstar, i've helped with the testing of the script... some weird things can happen`
`16:23.08`	`wegstar`	`oh`
`16:23.10`	`TheRedBaron`	`CBG, where you moving forward?`
`16:23.13`	`CBG`	`but the first few times i cant rmemeber where i was moving`
`16:23.19`	`CBG`	`this last time, i was moving forward`
`16:23.52`	`TheRedBaron`	`blast007, i reall doubt its the _gmactivationtime... because he hasn't locked on to anything`
`16:24.05`	`CBG`	`i was not locking on.`
`16:24.12`	`wegstar`	`hmm`
`16:24.22`	`TheRedBaron`	`exactly. so there is no activation....`
`16:24.37`	`TheRedBaron`	`$12 says its the script :D`
`16:25.51`	`CBG`	`$14 says its the cheese.`
`16:25.58`	`CBG`	`i swear its gone off`
`16:26.00`	`CBG`	`:D`
`16:27.27`	`Thumper_`	`blast007: tuxee has a lower activation time... currently 0.2`
`16:30.38`	`TheRedBaron`	`CBG, how close to the portal were you?`
`16:31.38`	`Thumper_`	`The tuxee map is created with a script... but it's a static map as far as the server is concerned`
`16:31.54`	`Thumper_`	`the script makes a .bzw map file for bzfs to use`
`16:32.06`	`Thumper_`	`IIRC`
`16:34.14`	`TheRedBaron`	`thumper_, what do you mean by "static map"`
`16:34.41`	`Thumper_`	`the script just generates a text file for the map which is a legal bzfs format map`
`16:34.51`	`*** join/#bzflag m0nkey_poo (creeperz@host-40-145-230-24.midco.net)`
`16:34.52`	`Thumper_`	`that map is used by bzfs to play on`
`16:35.24`	`TheRedBaron`	`ok... thats what I thought.... I Have no idea how the script works... or how it writes it... or what format...`
`16:35.46`	`TheRedBaron`	`All I know is that he uses a script, and it can produce some wierd 'bugs'`
`16:35.55`	`Thumper_`	`The script is written in Python... and it creates a bzfs map file`
`16:36.19`	`Thumper_`	`then we just feed that file to bzfs as the world file`
`16:36.32`	`TheRedBaron`	`example, one map, i could drive into a building with OO drop OO, and shoot out of the building.`
`16:36.36`	`Thumper_`	`so there shouldn't be anything different about tuxee teleporters versus normal ones`
`16:36.58`	`Thumper_`	`I believe everything on the current tuxee map is built with meshes`
`16:36.59`	`Thumper_`	`only`
`16:37.18`	`Thumper_`	`but I haven't seen the code lately`
`16:37.26`	`wegstar`	`ah..`
`16:37.31`	`*** join/#bzflag ep (mdr@ip68-97-122-98.ok.ok.cox.net)`
`16:37.59`	`TheRedBaron`	`thumper_ there should be anything different about tuxee buildings... but there was :)`
`16:38.17`	`Thumper_`	`tuxee buildings are Meshes`
`16:38.26`	`Thumper_`	`vs old type boxes`
`16:38.46`	`CBG`	`sorry. g2g, bye`
`16:39.31`	`Thumper_`	`and yes I've seen it 'act weird' when you get stuck inside a mesh and you have to reverse to get out forwards :)`
`16:42.00`	`*** join/#bzflag escristian (~escristia@modemcable054.201-131-66.mc.videotron.ca)`
`16:42.01`	`Thumper_`	`you can save the tuxee map and play with it locally if there is something you want to explore`
`16:42.06`	`Thumper_`	`just like any other world`
`16:42.43`	`Thumper_`	`bbl`
`16:44.41`	`*** join/#bzflag JeffM2501 (~JeffM@Patlabor221.active.supporter.pdpc)`
`16:44.42`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ`
`16:44.53`	`spldart`	`what was the save command?`
`16:44.58`	`spldart`	`save a map`
`16:45.40`	`TheRedBaron`	`spldart, under options somewhere`
`16:45.52`	`spldart`	`ok thanks`
`16:48.14`	`blast007`	`TheRedBaron: I think the _gmActivationTime takes effect even if they don't lock on`
`16:50.58`	`wegstar`	`hmm`
`16:51.02`	`*** join/#bzflag TheRedBaron (~d8ada652@rw08.de)`
`16:57.40`	`*** join/#bzflag Tupone (~Tupone@host-84-222-139-127.cust-adsl.tiscali.it)`
`17:04.03`	`*** join/#bzflag CBG (~CannonBal@cpc3-stme1-5-0-cust91.cdif.cable.ntl.com)`
`17:16.43`	`*** join/#bzflag crko (jan@cmb27-47.dial-up.arnes.si)`
`17:24.05`	`CBG`	`blast, you there?`
`17:24.13`	`blast007`	`yeah`
`17:24.23`	`CBG`	`sorry i had to go, tea was ready.`
`17:24.29`	`blast007`	`:)`
`17:24.40`	`CBG`	`it seemed to kill me when i was going forward...`
`17:24.49`	`CBG`	`so, i reckon it was me`
`17:24.57`	`CBG`	`my fps was usually around 16`
`17:25.02`	`CBG`	`highest it went was 25`
`17:25.04`	`blast007`	`it's probably a combination of the lower _gmActivationTime and a low FPS`
`17:25.09`	`CBG`	`yeah`
`17:25.20`	`TheRedBaron`	`blast007, but what about it happening to other players?`
`17:25.58`	`CBG`	`maybe they have low FPS too?`
`17:25.59`	`blast007`	`TheRedBaron: well, if they have low FPS, they are more likely to shoot themself with a GM`
`17:26.22`	`CBG`	`and only 1 person other than me - that I know of`
`17:26.30`	`TheRedBaron`	`ahh.`
`17:26.32`	`CBG`	`have you had a lot of people complaining about it?`
`17:26.49`	`blast007`	`some computers take a major hit in performance when you shoot missiles`
`17:27.14`	`TheRedBaron`	`no, but you said other people on the server were talking about it... so i figured it wasn't just a client, personal thing...`
`17:28.40`	`CBG`	`no, just 1.`
`17:28.56`	`CBG`	`there were 5 of us on at the time`
`17:29.10`	`CBG`	`i shot myself with Gm and said "how did that happen"`
`17:29.27`	`CBG`	`someone said "its a bug - when you fire Gm through portal - you die"`
`17:29.40`	`CBG`	`so I tried it again and died agin then came and told you guys.`
`17:33.25`	`TheRedBaron`	`~blast007++`
`17:33.37`	`TheRedBaron`	`you win the $10 :D`
`17:35.08`	`blast007`	`he`
`17:35.10`	`blast007`	`heh*`
`17:36.04`	`TheRedBaron`	`blast007, i'll have my nigerian agent handle the process :D`
`17:36.12`	`blast007`	`;)`
`17:36.32`	`TheRedBaron`	`he'll just require your credit card number for verification :)`
`17:40.46`	`*** join/#bzflag Birdie (~birdie@d54C34D0B.access.telenet.be)`
`17:50.36`	`jpa-`	`Thumper_: :(`
`17:51.25`	`*** join/#bzflag bryjen (~bryjen@63.147.94.151)`
`17:59.37`	`*** join/#bzflag Fuddl (~fuddl@2001:6f8:9cf:0:20f:eaff:fe4d:d7b7)`
`18:06.08`	`*** join/#bzflag TOKIMI (~jason@co2.cudenver.edu)`
`18:07.31`	`*** part/#bzflag TOKIMI (~jason@co2.cudenver.edu)`
`18:08.14`	`*** join/#bzflag Guest735 (~d99d845c@rw08.de)`
`18:10.52`	`Thumper_`	`~karma jpa_`
`18:10.52`	`ibot`	`jpa_ has neutral karma`
`18:10.58`	`Thumper_`	`~karma Thumper_`
`18:10.58`	`ibot`	`thumper_ has karma of 2`
`18:11.44`	`spldart`	`~karma Thumper_ ++`
`18:11.44`	`ibot`	`thumper_ ++ has neutral karma`
`18:11.47`	`spldart`	`hehe`
`18:11.59`	`*** join/#bzflag TimRiker (~timr@TimRiker.active.supporter.pdpc)`
`18:11.59`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ`
`18:12.42`	`spldart`	`~karma spldart --`
`18:12.42`	`ibot`	`spldart -- has neutral karma`
`18:13.05`	`spldart`	`~karma ibot`
`18:13.05`	`ibot`	`ibot has karma of 12`
`18:13.20`	`jpa-`	`~Thumper_--`
`18:13.37`	`spldart`	`~ibot++`
`18:13.48`	`spldart`	`~karma ibot`
`18:13.48`	`ibot`	`ibot has karma of 13`
`18:17.41`	`spldart`	`~karma jpa-++`
`18:17.41`	`ibot`	`jpa-++ has neutral karma`
`18:17.55`	`spldart`	`~jpa-++`
`18:18.08`	`spldart`	`~karma jpa-`
`18:18.08`	`ibot`	`jpa- has karma of -1`
`18:18.30`	`spldart`	`grr`
`18:18.39`	`spldart`	`~jpa---`
`18:18.48`	`spldart`	`~karma jpa-`
`18:18.48`	`ibot`	`jpa- has karma of -2`
`18:18.51`	`spldart`	`grrrrrr`
`18:19.20`	`spldart`	`~karma a round for the house`
`18:19.20`	`ibot`	`a round for the house has neutral karma`
`18:27.12`	`ToughShooter`	`~jpa-++`
`18:27.33`	`jpa-`	`~toughshooter++`
`18:27.49`	`ToughShooter`	`he's not that evil, was helpful to me indeed`
`18:28.26`	`spldart`	`~karma jpa-`
`18:28.26`	`ibot`	`jpa- has karma of -1`
`18:28.44`	`spldart`	`++ adds and -- subtracts right?`
`18:28.49`	`jpa-`	`yup`
`18:28.55`	`ToughShooter`	`in most cases`
`18:28.57`	`spldart`	`~jpa-++`
`18:29.03`	`spldart`	`~karma jpa-`
`18:29.03`	`ibot`	`jpa- has neutral karma`
`18:29.06`	`spldart`	`ah`
`18:29.06`	`menotume`	`~jpa/5`
`18:29.07`	`spldart`	`got it`
`18:29.11`	`*** join/#bzflag TheRedBaron (~d8ada652@rw08.de)`
`18:29.22`	`ToughShooter`	`You can't ++ yourself for example`
`18:29.25`	`jpa-`	`menotume: zero by five is zero, anyway :)`
`18:29.30`	`menotume`	`lol`
`18:29.51`	`TheRedBaron`	`jpa-, cbg has a question for you :)`
`18:30.03`	`CBG`	`i do?`
`18:31.37`	`jpa-`	`does he?`
`18:31.44`	`CBG`	`i do now...`
`18:31.55`	`CBG`	`jpa: please explain the differences between theredbaron and redbaron2 . ..`
`18:32.03`	`jpa-`	`ah`
`18:32.04`	`jpa-`	`ok`
`18:32.15`	`jpa-`	`one is an idiot, and the otherone is a gay`
`18:32.25`	`jpa-`	`it is up to you to figure out which one is which`
`18:32.39`	`CBG`	`hmmm...`
`18:32.43`	`spldart`	`omg`
`18:32.44`	`RedBaron2`	`..`
`18:32.45`	`CBG`	`i think ill just let it drom.`
`18:32.47`	`TheRedBaron`	`bad jpa-`
`18:32.48`	`JeffM2501`	`please watch the language and isults`
`18:32.56`	`CBG`	`I wouldnt want to step on anyones.... uhhh. toes...`
`18:32.57`	`RedBaron2`	`lol`
`18:32.58`	`jpa-`	`ah`
`18:33.04`	`*** join/#bzflag bzflagwiz (~c02b41f5@webchat.bzflag.bz)`
`18:33.08`	`TheRedBaron`	`~jpa---`
`18:33.11`	`jpa-`	`i should have checked first if JeffM2501 is around :P`
`18:33.19`	`CBG`	`:D lol`
`18:33.22`	`JeffM2501`	`jpa-, it's loged anyway`
`18:33.28`	`JeffM2501`	`and not funny`
`18:33.32`	`Birdie`	`you check the logs every day?`
`18:33.46`	`JeffM2501`	`if there is reason to`
`18:33.55`	`JeffM2501`	`like there was a complaint that day`
`18:33.56`	`DTRemenak`	`Birdie: I read everything that is said in this channel, either in the backlog or in the ibot logs`
`18:34.03`	`spldart`	`Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries!`
`18:34.07`	`jpa-`	`omg`
`18:34.17`	`jpa-`	`i can't say anything now on :/`
`18:34.22`	`DTRemenak`	`I'm sure I'm not the only one, too :)`
`18:34.29`	`JeffM2501`	`if you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all :)`
`18:34.36`	`CBG`	`why is it wrong to call someone an idiot/gay ?`
`18:34.46`	`DTRemenak`	`JeffM2501: you sound like my mother`
`18:34.46`	`CBG`	`maybe they are.`
`18:35.07`	`TheRedBaron`	`no...`
`18:35.21`	`jpa-`	`i didn't mean them to be, it was just a joke :)`
`18:35.31`	`TheRedBaron`	`I took it as a joke`
`18:35.41`	`jpa-`	`i just couldn't answer that question seriously :)`
`18:35.42`	`RedBaron2`	`hehe same :) no hard feelings :)`
`18:35.44`	`CBG`	`i took it deadly serious`
`18:35.44`	`TheRedBaron`	`but poor CBG didn't know what hit him.`
`18:35.58`	`CBG`	`those idiots can sure get mad when you start snooping about`
`18:36.01`	`CBG`	`when what hit me?`
`18:36.25`	`jpa-`	`TheRedBaron: well, you are not the idiot one ,)`
`18:36.41`	`CBG`	`;) lol`
`18:36.44`	`DTRemenak`	`jpa-: I literally choked myself laughing at that answer, actually...don't drink and read IRC, I guess. JeffM2501's point is that you should not say things that are likely to offend, unless you are intending to offend.`
`18:36.59`	`TheRedBaron`	`jpa-, only you could could take something from bad, and make it worse :)`
`18:37.01`	`jpa-`	`well, i am`
`18:37.14`	`TheRedBaron`	`~jpa-`
`18:37.35`	`CBG`	`~fishslap jpa-`
`18:37.37`	`ibot`	`ACTION slaps jpa- up side the head with a wet fish.`
`18:37.45`	`CBG`	`:p`
`18:37.55`	`RedBaron2`	`!lart jpa`
`18:38.04`	`TheRedBaron`	`DTRemenak, you weren't supposed to find it that funny. :P`
`18:38.05`	`jpa-`	`ha!`
`18:39.18`	`DTRemenak`	`TheRedBaron: bah :)`
`18:39.49`	`TheRedBaron`	`it only encourages him... :P`
`18:40.10`	`jpa-`	`yes`
`18:40.25`	`jpa-`	`now i have a defender against jeff :)`
`18:40.58`	`TheRedBaron`	`actually, i'd say when it comes between you and jeff.... Dtremenak is going with jeff.`
`18:41.10`	`DTRemenak`	`jpa-: I'm not about to defend you from anyone :P`
`18:41.29`	`jpa-`	`hm, i don't care`
`18:41.46`	`DTRemenak`	`good :)`
`18:42.00`	`jpa-`	`it is not likely for him to revenge anyway worse than by kicking from this channel`
`18:42.09`	`jpa-`	`and that would just give me more free time`
`18:42.40`	`DTRemenak`	`revenge?`
`18:43.05`	`jpa-`	`s/revenge/punish/`
`18:43.59`	`DTRemenak`	`ah. so you think that just because the punishment is not severe, you can do anything? don't you have any, you know, moral or ethical qualms about that?`
`18:44.27`	`jpa-`	`uh, moral?`
`18:44.28`	`TheRedBaron`	`dtremenak: he probally doesn't...`
`18:44.37`	`TheRedBaron`	`!dict moral`
`18:44.39`	`guu`	`TheRedBaron: wn, foldoc, devils, gcide, and moby-thes responded: gcide: Moral \Mor"al\, v. i. To moralize. [Obs.] --Shak. [1913 Webster]; foldoc: MORAL Mentioned in "An Overview of Ada", J.G.P. Barnes, Soft Prac & Exp 10:851-887 (1980); devils: MORAL, adj. Conforming to a local and mutable standard of right. Having the quality of general expediency. It is sayd there be a raunge of (19 more messages)`
`18:45.00`	`TheRedBaron`	`that's not a very good definition...`
`18:45.02`	`jpa-`	`devils! i know those :)`
`18:45.09`	`DTRemenak`	`no, it's not`
`18:45.15`	`DTRemenak`	`~dict moral`
`18:45.37`	`bryjen`	`the devil's dictionary is not the place to lookup morals`
`18:45.55`	`DTRemenak`	`heh :)`
`18:46.22`	`*** join/#bzflag wizart (~wizart@dsl-084-058-007-124.arcor-ip.net)`
`18:50.07`	`TheRedBaron`	`oh joy the time passes. I"ve got to run`
`18:50.33`	`TheRedBaron`	`cheerio Jpa- :P`
`18:51.00`	`jpa-`	`cheerio? you mean those donut seeds?`
`18:51.47`	`spldart`	`~dict donut seeds`
`18:51.54`	`spldart`	`:)`
`18:51.57`	`TheRedBaron`	`~dict cheerio`
`18:52.09`	`*** join/#bzflag brad2901_ (brad2901@ACD5D02E.ipt.aol.com)`
`18:52.13`	`jpa-`	`braddie <3`
`18:52.47`	`brad2901`	`hi jpa-`
`18:58.37`	`*** join/#bzflag bryjen (~bryjen@63.147.94.151)`
`19:00.50`	`*** join/#bzflag ibot (ibot@apt.bot.TimRiker.active.supporter.pdpc)`
`19:00.50`	`*** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org/ \|\| http://my.BZFlag.org/bb/ \|\| http://my.BZFlag.org/ \|\| http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/BZFlag \|\| http://BZFlag.org/wiki/GettingHelp \|\| http://BZFlag.org/wiki/Download \|\| The next person to tease SportChick about her jitter will be kicked, and it's not hardware`
`19:00.50`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o ibot] by ChanServ`
`19:02.03`	`*** join/#bzflag brad2901 (brad2901@ACD58DD2.ipt.aol.com)`
`19:10.46`	`*** join/#bzflag CBG (~CannonBal@cpc3-stme1-5-0-cust91.cdif.cable.ntl.com)`
`19:14.14`	`*** join/#bzflag bzflagwiz (~c02b41f5@webchat.bzflag.bz)`
`19:17.03`	`*** part/#bzflag ToughShooter (~ts@pD9EA7F87.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`19:17.40`	`*** join/#bzflag prop (prop@viivakoodi.org)`
`19:22.26`	`BzflagDenMom`	`don't say anything insulting, unless you mean to be insulting and reap the concequences of the insult`
`19:23.01`	`jpa-`	`what does reap mean?`
`19:24.05`	`BzflagDenMom`	`it means get your head cut off by a guy with a scythe`
`19:24.27`	`jpa-`	`sounds fun`
`19:24.28`	`BzflagDenMom`	`me finds this funny`
`19:24.29`	`BzflagDenMom`	`http://www.joyoftech.com/joyoftech/index.html`
`19:25.18`	`menotume`	`iPod mind control .... ohhhhhhh`
`19:25.42`	`DTRemenak`	`hehe, that's a good one :)`
`19:26.35`	`CBG`	`time to start boycoting joyoftech.com`
`19:29.31`	`BzflagDenMom`	`ha`
`19:29.38`	`BzflagDenMom`	`little does he know they love macs there`
`19:31.06`	`DTRemenak`	`it's so clearly satirical I don't see how anyone could take it seriously...`
`19:32.00`	`BzflagDenMom`	`ja`
`19:32.26`	`BzflagDenMom`	`if windows users went and boycoted sites everytime somone bashed MS, there would be no internet trafic`
`19:32.48`	`BzflagDenMom`	`and DSL lines would cost 500$`
`19:33.05`	`DTRemenak`	`heh. too many windows users don't even know alternatives exist.`
`19:43.20`	`*** join/#bzflag Noodleman (~tuckerm@12-210-69-176.client.insightBB.com)`
`19:45.42`	`*** join/#bzflag wegstar (~foo@adsl-67-121-190-35.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net)`
`19:54.48`	`*** join/#bzflag Carnage (Carn@dyn216-8-132-60.ADSL.mnsi.net)`
`19:55.03`	`*** join/#bzflag bzflagwiz (~c02b41f5@webchat.bzflag.bz)`
`19:55.14`	`*** join/#bzflag Carnage (Carn@dyn216-8-132-60.ADSL.mnsi.net)`
`19:55.54`	`cosmos`	`you can add another imposter ip to the list`
`19:55.57`	`cosmos`	`@400000004249a5c31aada894 Player JB DiGriz [20] has joined from 194.106.213`
`19:55.58`	`cosmos`	`<PROTECTED>`
`19:56.58`	`*** join/#bzflag CBG (~CannonBal@cpc3-stme1-5-0-cust91.cdif.cable.ntl.com)`
`19:57.14`	`CBG`	`hi`
`19:57.39`	*** join/#bzflag jh` (jh@b-252-40.dsl.kpy.customers.dnainternet.fi)
`20:02.08`	`*** join/#bzflag Punkus (~chris@222.153.210.20)`
`20:02.12`	`Punkus`	`hi`
`20:02.27`	`Punkus`	`can someone help me with making links between teleporters?`
`20:04.29`	`*** join/#bzflag SportyGal (sportygali@67-21-174-30.stmnca.adelphia.net)`
`20:05.07`	`Punkus`	`hi SportyGal`
`20:05.29`	`wegstar`	`err... yeah..`
`20:06.10`	`SportyGal`	`hi punkus`
`20:06.39`	`wegstar`	`hmm.. the old link syntax or the new one?`
`20:06.43`	`spldart`	`ooOOOoo.. That gives me an idea. I need a teleporter on the ground to connect to my pyramids in the sky 8-)`
`20:07.27`	`wegstar`	`right.. I was wondering how to get there :P`
`20:09.24`	`spldart`	`That would let tanks not carrying WG to get up there and shoot their SW GM and superbullets :)`
`20:10.59`	`Punkus`	`the ones in 2.0`
`20:11.23`	`Punkus`	`i have three teleporters`
`20:11.39`	`spldart`	`Sorry I can't answer your question Punkuss. I'm going to have to learn it real quick when I get home from work and then add them in ;)`
`20:11.42`	`Punkus`	`2 in oposite corners and one in the middle`
`20:11.51`	`*** join/#bzflag newbie__dont (~janko@dlx57.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)`
`20:13.05`	`Punkus`	`i want one side of the middle teleporter to teleport to one of the other tele's and the other side of the middle tele to the left over tele`
`20:13.20`	`Punkus`	`and the corner teles to each other`
`20:13.23`	`Punkus`	`;)`
`20:13.31`	`Punkus`	`like the grassroots portals`
`20:14.20`	`Punkus`	`wegstar: hello ?`
`20:15.04`	`Punkus`	`gah.. i gtg`
`20:15.09`	`Punkus`	`school`
`20:15.14`	`Punkus`	`bbl`
`20:15.25`	`*** part/#bzflag Punkus (~chris@222.153.210.20)`
`20:15.37`	`*** join/#bzflag theEnemy (~jifl@cpc3-cmbg5-3-0-cust28.cmbg.cable.ntl.com)`
`20:24.09`	`wegstar`	`..`
`20:25.29`	*** part/#bzflag jh` (jh@b-252-40.dsl.kpy.customers.dnainternet.fi)
`20:38.04`	`wegstar`	`hmm`
`20:38.53`	`wegstar`	`in 2.0.0 I was unable to have global logins, now in 2.0.2 I can.. . and I didn't change anything...`
`20:39.24`	`spldart`	`r u linux, windows or other?`
`20:39.48`	`wegstar`	`windows`
`20:39.52`	`wegstar`	`:)`
`20:40.20`	`wegstar`	`I solved that problem in 2.0.0 by compiling my own bzfs... hmm,`
`20:40.30`	`wegstar`	`and I didn't change anything...`
`20:40.51`	`spldart`	`I was intermittant glolbal 2.0.0. When I first changed to 2.0.2 I had no global at all for almost a day then was back to intermittant`
`20:41.00`	`wegstar`	`hmm`
`20:41.02`	`spldart`	`I forgot about your compiling especially ;)`
`20:41.07`	`spldart`	`my bad`
`20:41.12`	`wegstar`	`err..`
`20:41.15`	`wegstar`	`:)`
`20:41.25`	`wegstar`	`for some reason it solved the problem...`
`20:42.11`	`wegstar`	`oh well, it just works, and I don't want to question that ;)`
`20:42.18`	`*** join/#bzflag cods (~admin@tuxee.net)`
`20:43.06`	`spldart`	`yeah`
`20:46.00`	`wegstar`	`nhmm.. intermittent.... in 2.0.0 global logins worked only once for me and after that it did not..`
`20:48.37`	`spldart`	`Is it possible to update the libcurl stuff in windows 98?`
`20:50.05`	`escristian`	`Does anyone know what libcurl is used for currently. I saw that they want to use it in the future. But in 2.0.0 are any functionalities of libcurl used`
`20:50.16`	`BzflagDenMom`	`yes`
`20:50.21`	`BzflagDenMom`	`it is used for master ban`
`20:50.26`	`BzflagDenMom`	`the MOTD`
`20:50.33`	`BzflagDenMom`	`and geting files from the net for maps`
`20:50.52`	`BzflagDenMom`	`spldart, you should problby build libcurl on 98`
`20:50.56`	`escristian`	`when u say getting files from the net do u mean a client will get the files from the server`
`20:50.57`	`BzflagDenMom`	`instead of our binarys`
`20:51.08`	`BzflagDenMom`	`no I mean if the map uses a URL for a texture`
`20:51.13`	`escristian`	`ok`
`20:51.22`	`BzflagDenMom`	`the server dosn't realy have any "files"`
`20:51.28`	`BzflagDenMom`	`the server dosn't use a data dir`
`20:52.12`	`escristian`	`but the .bzf file is on the server rigth? he has the responsability of instantiating all the objects in the world`
`20:52.29`	`BzflagDenMom`	`the server reads in a file if one is provided`
`20:52.31`	`escristian`	`the clients connecting to the server will reference that data`
`20:52.36`	`BzflagDenMom`	`and creates a binary map representation`
`20:52.44`	`BzflagDenMom`	`that then sends that data to the client`
`20:52.48`	`BzflagDenMom`	`it dosn't send the bzw file`
`20:52.56`	`BzflagDenMom`	`sine for a random world there is no bzw file.`
`20:52.57`	`*** join/#bzflag gina (~gigi@174.4-200-80.adsl.skynet.be)`
`20:53.23`	`BzflagDenMom`	`the bzw is just one way to get the server to create a world structure`
`20:53.33`	`escristian`	`ok`
`20:53.55`	`BzflagDenMom`	`the texture atributes of that world structure can refrence URLs instead of local file names`
`20:54.03`	`BzflagDenMom`	`then it is the client's job to get them`
`20:54.07`	`escristian`	`and that's where libcurl comes in`
`20:54.09`	`BzflagDenMom`	`if it dosn't have them allready`
`20:54.10`	`BzflagDenMom`	`yeah`
`20:54.13`	`escristian`	`ok kewl`
`20:54.15`	`escristian`	`thanks`
`20:54.25`	`BzflagDenMom`	`server uses libcurl to get the master ban tho`
`20:54.30`	`BzflagDenMom`	`so libcurl is used by both`
`20:55.36`	`BzflagDenMom`	`98 just seems to have it's own network stack, and it dosn't work well with the libcurl binarys`
`20:58.38`	`spldart`	`cuz 98 is teh evils :-x`
`20:58.46`	`BzflagDenMom`	`it's prety crapy`
`20:58.52`	`BzflagDenMom`	`no 32bit core`
`20:59.12`	`*** join/#bzflag CBG (~CannonBal@cpc3-stme1-5-0-cust91.cdif.cable.ntl.com)`
`20:59.18`	`wegstar`	`hey cbg`
`20:59.23`	`spldart`	`Not to important... I'm looking toward an OS upgrade path already`
`20:59.28`	`CBG`	`hi :)`
`20:59.31`	`BzflagDenMom`	`cool`
`20:59.57`	`spldart`	`That's why I'm playing with linux alot again.`
`21:00.02`	`spldart`	`It's been a while.`
`21:00.20`	`BzflagDenMom`	`it can be fun`
`21:00.40`	`wegstar`	`no wonder...`
`21:00.41`	`wegstar`	`:)`
`21:00.57`	`spldart`	`I think my main concern is still finding a router similar to winroute to use on it.`
`21:01.10`	`JeffM2501`	`I realy sugest hardware`
`21:01.17`	`JeffM2501`	`it works out a lot better`
`21:01.20`	`spldart`	`I really like having a pc handle all my inet interface duties`
`21:01.28`	`spldart`	`I know I know.`
`21:01.36`	`JeffM2501`	`there are many software routers for linux`
`21:01.46`	`JeffM2501`	`what do you like about the PC doing it?`
`21:02.31`	`cosmos`	`he likes the random freeze ups`
`21:02.45`	`cosmos`	`and the ease of installing new worms and other fun things`
`21:03.17`	`spldart`	`I can sit at once machine and: assign permissions/etc for all machines in my lan. Write rules in the firewall for various ports (and maps), configure and update my website and the material inside, and now, change the configuration or add too my bzfs server`
`21:03.46`	`spldart`	`Reboot once a month and I don't get freezes`
`21:03.48`	`spldart`	`hehe`
`21:04.02`	`spldart`	`IB Jeff points out reboots mean instablity again ;)`
`21:04.57`	`JeffM2501`	`spldart, you know you have the same level of controll on a router right?`
`21:04.59`	`spldart`	`Wow... I'm 2 hours short of 5 days on bzfs... The longest I've ever left it running`
`21:05.02`	`JeffM2501`	`it's all net configured`
`21:05.03`	`spldart`	`Yes`
`21:05.06`	`spldart`	`but`
`21:05.18`	`JeffM2501`	`and you still have the server to do the rest on`
`21:05.20`	`spldart`	`the server is there already. and my funds are limited`
`21:05.23`	`JeffM2501`	`it just dosn't handle your nat`
`21:05.29`	`JeffM2501`	`what ever floats your boat`
`21:05.37`	`JeffM2501`	`time == money`
`21:05.38`	`spldart`	`I have to NAT too`
`21:05.49`	`spldart`	`?`
`21:05.50`	`JeffM2501`	`the router does the nat`
`21:06.05`	`JeffM2501`	`you'r spending time on your config of the linux system, rather then the cash of a router`
`21:06.15`	`JeffM2501`	`what ever fits your time/money budget`
`21:06.30`	`spldart`	`but it will be a labor of love :)`
`21:06.37`	`JeffM2501`	`or a labor of pain`
`21:07.00`	`JeffM2501`	`wait till you forget to close a port, and get rootkited :)`
`21:07.05`	`spldart`	`Your a pessimist.`
`21:07.08`	`spldart`	`I like that in a person`
`21:07.29`	`spldart`	`hehe`
`21:07.30`	`JeffM2501`	`if you hope for the worst, and life isn't allways the worst, then what ever happens is good :)`
`21:07.49`	`JeffM2501`	`if you allways hope for the best, and life isn't allways perfect, then your allways disapointed :)`
`21:07.52`	`spldart`	`That's what I always hope for. But it doesn't always come out the way`
`21:09.29`	`*** join/#bzflag nixdepp (~Miranda@p5085750E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)`
`21:09.37`	`cosmos`	`he has conveniently placed all of his stuff in one honey pot`
`21:09.41`	`cosmos`	`for easy rootkit access`
`21:09.45`	`nixdepp`	`hey cosmos, your server is hacked!`
`21:09.51`	`cosmos`	`excuse me`
`21:10.13`	`nixdepp`	`kicked me with racist talks`
`21:10.28`	`cosmos`	`who kicked you`
`21:10.29`	`spldart`	`I got my server hacked twice before I put up winroute and locked it down`
`21:10.42`	`nixdepp`	`server`
`21:10.44`	`spldart`	`after I did that I challenged a couple of friends to try to get in and they failed`
`21:10.46`	`JeffM2501`	`another problem with using a computer`
`21:10.48`	`spldart`	`that makes me happy.`
`21:10.48`	`nixdepp`	`i make a screenshot`
`21:10.57`	`JeffM2501`	`all they have to do is find a hole in winroute :)`
`21:11.26`	`spldart`	`Nobody ever has yet. After 3 years`
`21:11.28`	`cosmos`	`nixdepp server or one of the admins`
`21:11.41`	`spldart`	`I just have to keep the wife out hehe`
`21:12.26`	`cosmos`	`thats what the garage is for`
`21:12.31`	`spldart`	`but seriously a hardware routers is going to be just as bad if it's opened`
`21:12.43`	`JeffM2501`	`with the router doing the nat, she can't turn it off or she loses her net connection :)`
`21:12.52`	`spldart`	`Not turn it off`
`21:12.57`	`spldart`	`but open up all ports`
`21:13.02`	`spldart`	`so she can do what she wants to do`
`21:13.02`	`JeffM2501`	`spldart, no it won't it CAN"T open all ports`
`21:13.08`	`JeffM2501`	`it woudl not know where to route them to`
`21:13.12`	`JeffM2501`	`since it's not a computer`
`21:13.17`	`JeffM2501`	`it dosn't route them to itself`
`21:13.29`	`JeffM2501`	`I don't think you get how it works`
`21:13.40`	`JeffM2501`	`you can't go into it and "open" all ports`
`21:14.14`	`JeffM2501`	`every route is explicidly defined from WAN port to LAN IP and port`
`21:14.21`	`JeffM2501`	`for incoming trafic`
`21:14.33`	`cosmos`	`no_limit_soldier abusing my players hrm`
`21:15.07`	`TimRiker`	`well, some routers have a "DMZ" or "internal host" setting to forward all ports to another machine.`
`21:15.17`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah that is a feature`
`21:15.21`	`JeffM2501`	`but you have to turn it on`
`21:15.25`	`JeffM2501`	`some do`
`21:15.26`	`JeffM2501`	`some don't`
`21:15.29`	`spldart`	`How do I protect myself (liek a firewall)`
`21:15.37`	`JeffM2501`	`it is a firewall too`
`21:15.44`	`JeffM2501`	`by default all incoming trafic is blocked`
`21:15.49`	`JeffM2501`	`unless it was a request from the lan`
`21:15.54`	`JeffM2501`	`so noone can scan you`
`21:15.58`	`JeffM2501`	`or your entire lan`
`21:16.23`	`spldart`	`and if she needs a range of ports like 4661 to 4669 TCP incoming and outgoing directly to her machine?`
`21:16.37`	`JeffM2501`	`outgoing will happen automaticly via nat`
`21:16.43`	`JeffM2501`	`what does she need incoming for?`
`21:16.56`	`JeffM2501`	`she is running a listen server?`
`21:17.39`	`JeffM2501`	`but IF you realy do need those ports on your single WAN IP to route to one LAN PC, then you just set up a simple port forward`
`21:17.45`	`JeffM2501`	`just for those ports in the range`
`21:17.47`	`JeffM2501`	`it's realy easy`
`21:18.00`	`JeffM2501`	`most services just need to get out, not listen in`
`21:18.01`	`spldart`	`Say she wants to P2P`
`21:18.11`	`JeffM2501`	`she can`
`21:18.12`	`JeffM2501`	`thru nat`
`21:18.18`	`JeffM2501`	`she just can`
`21:18.21`	`spldart`	`sounds just like winroute`
`21:18.29`	`JeffM2501`	`winroute does similar things yes`
`21:18.30`	`spldart`	`default... all ports are closed`
`21:18.39`	`JeffM2501`	`but on this it's not a PC`
`21:18.42`	`spldart`	`You have to allow incoming and outgoing on ports you want`
`21:18.46`	`JeffM2501`	`so it dosn't have an "all open" option`
`21:18.46`	`spldart`	`yes`
`21:18.57`	`JeffM2501`	`no you don't do anything for outgoing`
`21:19.02`	`JeffM2501`	`outgoing is all automatic`
`21:19.12`	`JeffM2501`	`the nat handles that transperantly`
`21:19.20`	`JeffM2501`	`all you need is stuff that has to listen`
`21:19.29`	`JeffM2501`	`some p2ps don't even listen`
`21:19.30`	`spldart`	`but what keeps her from opening up a bunch of listen ports and then somebody getting in?`
`21:19.40`	`JeffM2501`	`you teaching her`
`21:19.52`	`JeffM2501`	`she can't open them all`
`21:19.54`	`spldart`	`there we have the problem I have already`
`21:19.57`	`JeffM2501`	`so she has to know the ports`
`21:19.59`	`cosmos`	`63.93.102.105`
`21:20.02`	`spldart`	`yeah`
`21:20.06`	`cosmos`	`just on with a hacked admin password`
`21:20.13`	`JeffM2501`	`what account?`
`21:20.33`	`cosmos`	`no_limit_soldier_boy`
`21:20.45`	`JeffM2501`	`spldart, it's just harder for her to do it, so she'll have to pick port ranges.`
`21:21.00`	`spldart`	`okies`
`21:21.01`	`JeffM2501`	`cosmos, is that one of your valid admins?`
`21:21.05`	`spldart`	`makes sense`
`21:21.15`	`cosmos`	`yeah`
`21:21.20`	`JeffM2501`	`don't have a name for that`
`21:21.20`	`cosmos`	`but hes from the UK`
`21:21.22`	`JeffM2501`	`name is No_Limit_Soldier`
`21:21.25`	`cosmos`	`oh yeah`
`21:21.30`	`cosmos`	`forget the boy he dropped that part`
`21:21.54`	`cosmos`	`nixdepp sent a screen cap of him hurling racial abuse and kicking people`
`21:21.57`	`JeffM2501`	`shoudl I change the password?`
`21:22.03`	`JeffM2501`	`or you think he snaped?`
`21:22.18`	`cosmos`	`im getting concerned about these serers like the one sportchick pointed out`
`21:22.22`	`cosmos`	`these tks setup a server`
`21:22.32`	`JeffM2501`	`password farming`
`21:22.33`	`cosmos`	`and harvest passwsords it seems`
`21:22.36`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`21:22.40`	`JeffM2501`	`a common ploy`
`21:22.50`	`*** join/#bzflag bryjen (~bryjen@63.147.94.151)`
`21:23.00`	`cosmos`	`i would change his password and send him a note`
`21:24.32`	`wegstar`	`hmm... nixdepp had reported being kicked earlier...`
`21:24.43`	`cosmos`	`yeah sent me the screenshot`
`21:24.47`	`cosmos`	`its quite nasty`
`21:24.58`	`wegstar`	`oh...`
`21:27.03`	`cosmos`	`need a bzbb post to have people REMOVE the auto identify stuff`
`21:27.10`	`cosmos`	`they are handing kiddies the key`
`21:27.14`	`JeffM2501`	`and not have stupid passwords`
`21:27.19`	`cosmos`	`yeah`
`21:27.20`	`cosmos`	`single letter`
`21:27.25`	`cosmos`	`goood lord`
`21:29.03`	`spldart`	`I assume it's easy to find a toshiba cable modem driver for linux :/`
`21:32.01`	`bryjen`	`if the PC is connected to it via ethernet, you don't need a driver. if its USB, I donno`
`21:32.52`	`*** join/#bzflag bzflagwiz (~c02b41f5@webchat.bzflag.bz)`
`21:33.21`	`spldart`	`I assumed it would need a driver since all windows need drivers to allow the cable modem to function`
`21:37.14`	`bryjen`	`again, for USB, probly. If its just some kind of ether bridge/transciever, it should Just Work(tm) with any network card`
`21:38.21`	`bryjen`	`the cableco will probly send with it a CD of "Internet Software" you may not really need`
`21:38.37`	`JeffM2501`	`if you had a router it would work over ethernet with no driver :)`
`21:38.50`	`*** join/#bzflag Brad_Wark (brad2901@ACD59FDD.ipt.aol.com)`
`21:40.09`	`JeffM2501`	`cosmos, http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?p=32512#32512`
`21:40.20`	`spldart`	`LOL`
`21:40.32`	`JeffM2501`	`usualy for cable you ether do DHCP or pppoe`
`21:40.38`	`spldart`	`BTW Cableco doesn't support linux`
`21:40.47`	`JeffM2501`	`most nix systems will have ways todo that`
`21:40.51`	`JeffM2501`	`you only have 1 nic?`
`21:40.53`	`spldart`	`LOLOL`
`21:43.42`	`bryjen`	`I'm happy to be unsupported so that I'm not tempted to call them again. ;)`
`21:44.06`	`JeffM2501`	`heh`
`21:44.45`	`nixdepp`	`bettr idea, disallow easy passwords for the forum`
`21:44.57`	`cosmos`	`i called my cable support. they connected me to a call center that did not speak english`
`21:45.03`	`JeffM2501`	`sadly phpbb dosn't have that level of controll`
`21:45.13`	`JeffM2501`	`the simple passwords are only part of that problem`
`21:45.21`	`JeffM2501`	`it's the fact that they send them out in plaintext`
`21:45.46`	`nixdepp`	`ups, in the last weeks there were a lot of security probs with phpbb`
`21:45.55`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`21:45.59`	`JeffM2501`	`we've been keepong up to date`
`21:46.32`	`JeffM2501`	`the recent account compromises have all been shown to be ether user leting the password out, or it being a simple pass letter`
`21:46.42`	`*** join/#bzflag blast007 (~blast007@24-196-92-143.jvl.wi.charter.com)`
`21:46.43`	`*** join/#bzflag creeperz (~creeperz@host-40-145-230-24.midco.net)`
`21:46.57`	`nixdepp`	`imho a selfmade board would be better`
`21:47.03`	`JeffM2501`	`patches welcome`
`21:47.25`	`wegstar`	`:)`
`21:47.38`	`JeffM2501`	`none ever said bzflag was perfect`
`21:47.43`	`JeffM2501`	`it's a lan game from 1994 :)`
`21:47.59`	`creeperz`	`wow`
`21:48.05`	`nixdepp`	`hey, i love it`
`21:48.05`	`cosmos`	`i wish it could revert back to 1994`
`21:48.06`	`creeperz`	`bz is older than ragnarok online :-/`
`21:48.20`	`JeffM2501`	`creeperz, most things are older then RO`
`21:48.21`	`*** join/#bzflag CBG (~CannonBal@cpc3-stme1-5-0-cust91.cdif.cable.ntl.com)`
`21:48.24`	`JeffM2501`	`RO is a baby MMORPG`
`21:48.30`	`creeperz`	`yeah`
`21:48.39`	`CBG`	`I found (another) bug.`
`21:48.42`	`JeffM2501`	`UO, eq, AC, meridian 95`
`21:48.47`	`creeperz`	`starcraft is about the best pre-1999 game i can think of though`
`21:48.48`	`JeffM2501`	`all the quake games`
`21:48.58`	`creeperz`	`imho`
`21:48.58`	`CBG`	`nOn ducati, I capped my own flag when I was going AWAY from their base...`
`21:49.21`	`JeffM2501`	`nixdepp, if you want to write one, and submit it, please feel free`
`21:49.46`	`creeperz`	`uuhh`
`21:49.54`	`creeperz`	`another nose bleed`
`21:50.09`	`JeffM2501`	`thanks for sharing`
`21:50.13`	`creeperz`	`yeah`
`21:50.35`	`nixdepp`	`well, hmmm, maybe ... . if i am able to convince my boss to let me do this :-)`
`21:51.03`	`CBG`	`Jeff: did you do the Mac version?`
`21:51.07`	`JeffM2501`	`nope`
`21:51.10`	`JeffM2501`	`brlcad did`
`21:51.14`	`JeffM2501`	`tho I build one too`
`21:51.17`	`JeffM2501`	`just to make sure it builds`
`21:51.28`	`CBG`	`oh. ok. coo.`
`21:51.33`	`CBG`	`ill go download :)`
`21:51.53`	`JeffM2501`	`from where?`
`21:52.20`	`JeffM2501`	`he hasn't posted it yet`
`21:52.25`	`JeffM2501`	`probably still has to build the DMG`
`21:52.39`	`JeffM2501`	`he said he'd get to it soon tho`
`21:52.52`	`CBG`	`awww. :( lol`
`21:53.14`	`JeffM2501`	`if he dosn't get it tonight I'll build a little dmg and post it somewhere`
`21:53.32`	`CBG`	`cool. thanks`
`21:53.40`	`JeffM2501`	`you'll have to have SDL installed tho`
`21:54.17`	`CBG`	`huh?`
`21:54.51`	`*** join/#bzflag greg-a (~bp@66.184.202.234)`
`21:55.01`	`JeffM2501`	`I only made SDL builds`
`21:55.04`	`JeffM2501`	`so you'll need it`
`21:55.09`	`CBG`	`I'm lost`
`21:55.15`	`CBG`	`whats SDL? lol.`
`21:55.22`	`JeffM2501`	`a library`
`21:55.26`	`JeffM2501`	`www.libsdl.org`
`21:55.31`	`JeffM2501`	`Simple Direct Media library`
`21:56.02`	`CBG`	`so what do I need it for?`
`21:56.10`	`JeffM2501`	`for bzflag to work`
`21:56.17`	`JeffM2501`	`2.0 uses it`
`21:56.20`	`JeffM2501`	`or can use it`
`21:56.28`	`JeffM2501`	`the real DMG packs it up together`
`21:56.28`	`CBG`	`I am already playing on bz2...`
`21:56.33`	`JeffM2501`	`my builds don't`
`21:56.39`	`JeffM2501`	`then it may work`
`21:56.40`	`JeffM2501`	`it may not`
`21:56.43`	`JeffM2501`	`ya never know`
`21:56.46`	`CBG`	`hmm. ok`
`21:57.04`	`JeffM2501`	`ether that or you wait for brlcad to make the real build`
`21:58.20`	`CBG`	`ok :)`
`22:00.58`	`*** part/#bzflag nixdepp (~Miranda@p5085750E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)`
`22:03.48`	`*** join/#bzflag wizart (~wizart@dsl-084-058-018-061.arcor-ip.net)`
`22:04.08`	`orange`	`anybody thought of the idea of storing a list of accepted IP's for your callsign on the global server? An optional list, but if specified, it's enforced.`
`22:04.17`	`*** join/#bzflag BIYA (BIYA@dialup-4.129.87.68.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)`
`22:05.00`	`ruskie`	`hmmm would be nice...`
`22:05.11`	`orange`	`does the client contact the list server directly for authentication?`
`22:05.25`	`blast007`	`yeah`
`22:05.41`	`blast007`	`it sends the username and password to the list server`
`22:05.50`	`orange`	`so the info would be readily available`
`22:07.25`	`orange`	`I dunno, maybe there's another way, or maybe it's not needed, but it seems like it would help`
`22:08.06`	`cosmos`	`i still want to be able to make the offending childs computer explode in their face`
`22:08.11`	`cosmos`	`is that too much to ask?`
`22:08.19`	`ruskie`	`cosmos, nice idea...`
`22:08.36`	`ruskie`	`I'd be more happy with a Name - Age - Full address`
`22:09.40`	`orange`	`JeffM2501: can you change the bzbb registration page to ask for "parent's phone number"? I bet some will put it :-)`
`22:09.49`	`ruskie`	`lol`
`22:10.02`	`cosmos`	`hahaha`
`22:10.13`	`ruskie`	`would prolly work`
`22:10.21`	`BIYA`	`why?`
`22:10.26`	`ruskie`	`then just call up the parents and say look your kid did this and that and this`
`22:10.40`	`cosmos`	`most parents are as bad as the kids unfortunately`
`22:10.56`	`JeffM2501`	`orange, they like about age allready`
`22:10.56`	`BIYA`	`Sounds like my princeble`
`22:11.00`	`ruskie`	`yeah`
`22:11.05`	`cosmos`	`biya`
`22:11.08`	`cosmos`	`please go back to school`
`22:11.17`	`cosmos`	`wtf is a princeable`
`22:11.29`	`BIYA`	`Cant spell it :)`
`22:11.31`	`orange`	`JeffM2501: true, but you might catch one or two`
`22:11.33`	`cosmos`	`exactly`
`22:11.36`	`cosmos`	`go back to school`
`22:11.37`	`ruskie`	`proper term would be headmaster I think`
`22:11.40`	`orange`	`princiPAL -- he is your friend`
`22:11.44`	`ruskie`	`atleast in brit english`
`22:11.56`	`BIYA`	`hahaha no hes not`
`22:12.02`	`JeffM2501`	`or headmistress`
`22:12.10`	`ruskie`	`yup`
`22:12.12`	`cosmos`	`i find it a shame you cannot beat children in school anymore`
`22:12.15`	`JeffM2501`	`he is, you are just young and angst filled, so you feel you must rebell`
`22:12.21`	`JeffM2501`	`when you are 30 you will see how stupid you were.`
`22:12.38`	`*** join/#bzflag LordSarpedon (~naht@adsl-70-240-226-128.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net)`
`22:12.52`	`LordSarpedon`	`So i retrurn`
`22:12.58`	`JeffM2501`	`we can see that`
`22:13.08`	`BIYA`	`lol`
`22:13.10`	`orange`	`man it feels like Friday in here`
`22:13.26`	`LordSarpedon`	`But not, all the same`
`22:14.30`	`orchid`	`JeffM2501: how olds this channel, guesstimatingly? its been registered 3 years but I'm sure its longer than that`
`22:14.44`	`JeffM2501`	`when did I make the first bzedit?`
`22:14.52`	`orchid`	`2000?`
`22:15.00`	`JeffM2501`	`the channel was around when I did that`
`22:15.05`	`JeffM2501`	`that was the first I had heard of it`
`22:15.21`	`JeffM2501`	`it was not around when I got started in BZ`
`22:15.23`	`orchid`	`Chestal might know`
`22:15.31`	`JeffM2501`	`in 96-97ish`
`22:15.31`	`orchid`	`or were you here before him?>`
`22:15.41`	`JeffM2501`	`he was here in channel before I was`
`22:15.44`	`trepan`	`<PROTECTED>`
`22:16.01`	`orchid`	`trepan: yes thats just a formal registration`
`22:16.01`	`JeffM2501`	`I had not done anyting in BZ for a long time`
`22:16.16`	`JeffM2501`	`I even didn't know it had gone open source when I made the editor at first`
`22:16.37`	`JeffM2501`	`aren't the old pages archived on some web archive`
`22:16.45`	`JeffM2501`	`IIRC one has the ancoucement of the channel`
`22:16.46`	`orchid`	`oh the logs`
`22:17.07`	`orchid`	`hmm but that will tell us when tim started logging`
`22:19.08`	`JeffM2501`	`it was after 97`
`22:19.58`	`BIYA`	`Who mde this dhannel?`
`22:20.04`	`BIYA`	`channel*`
`22:20.07`	`JeffM2501`	`ether tim or chris`
`22:20.43`	`purple_cow`	`2000 sounds right re: bzedit`
`22:21.09`	`JeffM2501`	`how long had you been here before that purple_cow?`
`22:21.45`	`brad2901`	`jpa- you there?`
`22:21.54`	`brad2901`	`go on your server asap when you get this`
`22:21.59`	`purple_cow`	`i think i'd stopped by once or twice early 2000, but i didn't really hang out here until fall of 2001`
`22:22.24`	`JeffM2501`	`I know my first changes were in late 97`
`22:22.30`	`JeffM2501`	`and at that time there was no IRC`
`22:22.40`	`JeffM2501`	`as there was no opensourceness`
`22:22.47`	`JeffM2501`	`and no Tim as maintainer`
`22:22.55`	`JeffM2501`	`CRS was looking at a comercial win32 release`
`22:24.17`	`purple_cow`	`i think i first started bzedit late 99, but that was a long time ago, so i'm not sure :P`
`22:25.12`	`JeffM2501`	`bzbb has some age on it now too`
`22:25.19`	`JeffM2501`	`started in dec 2002`
`22:25.22`	`BIYA`	`Chris Schoeneman, was a graduate student at Cornell's computer graphics program. Today, the 34-year-old works for Pixar in Emeryville, California..... Wow he made it along way`
`22:26.21`	`JeffM2501`	`he still at pixar?`
`22:26.35`	`purple_cow`	`last i heard`
`22:26.53`	`JeffM2501`	`he do like shader dev or something?`
`22:27.08`	`BIYA`	`http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2003/11/20/bzflag.html`
`22:28.09`	`JeffM2501`	`C#?`
`22:28.39`	`purple_cow`	`JeffM2501: heh. it's actually a really slick language`
`22:28.44`	`JeffM2501`	`that's it`
`22:28.50`	`JeffM2501`	`get the matches`
`22:29.02`	`purple_cow`	`:)`
`22:29.05`	`JeffM2501`	`are you going to say you want to make a game where you hug pigs now?`
`22:29.10`	`purple_cow`	`hell no`
`22:29.13`	`LordSarpedon`	`C# isn't that bad`
`22:29.30`	`JeffM2501`	`purple_cow, you know you just said a MS product "isn't bad"?`
`22:29.36`	`purple_cow`	`JeffM2501: i said the language isn't bad`
`22:29.38`	`JeffM2501`	`are you going to get an IPod next?`
`22:29.47`	`JeffM2501`	`still there are ties`
`22:29.49`	`JeffM2501`	`they linger`
`22:30.05`	`LordSarpedon`	`Whine whine...the fact is, it is a vast improvement over traditional C++`
`22:30.23`	`JeffM2501`	`LordSarpedon, I know what the language is and what it can do, I'm just messing with purple_cow`
`22:30.29`	`purple_cow`	`hehe`
`22:30.35`	`cods`	`improvement ? ick`
`22:30.42`	`JeffM2501`	`it's something else`
`22:30.47`	`JeffM2501`	`it's not a C replacement`
`22:30.50`	`JeffM2501`	`even MS says that`
`22:30.54`	`JeffM2501`	`it's cooler then java`
`22:30.54`	`LordSarpedon`	`Sorry. I'm somewhat new, not familiar with the #bzflag community`
`22:30.56`	`JeffM2501`	`by far`
`22:31.06`	`purple_cow`	`there are some things that bother me about it, but in general it's turning out to be a great middle ground between C and python`
`22:31.13`	`JeffM2501`	`we have ad a couple other C# "fans" who went a bit overboard`
`22:31.14`	`LordSarpedon`	`Certainly not a C or C++ replacement, particularly for the low level stuff`
`22:32.11`	`JeffM2501`	`see the fact that he says something is better then pythong leades me to belive that there is an alien parasite in his brain`
`22:32.15`	`JeffM2501`	`controlling his every move`
`22:32.29`	`purple_cow`	`pfft`
`22:32.32`	`JeffM2501`	`while david's silent screams go unheard`
`22:32.33`	`LordSarpedon`	`I think anything that makes development faster and less cumbersome is a _good_ thing`
`22:32.41`	`BIYA`	`community karma system.... didnt help that much to keep the cheaters out :)`
`22:32.53`	`JeffM2501`	`BIYA, how could it`
`22:32.57`	`JeffM2501`	`it's not even DONE yet`
`22:33.02`	`BIYA`	`I know`
`22:33.09`	`JeffM2501`	`global reg is the first step`
`22:33.15`	`LordSarpedon`	`Why not distribute the global bans via P2P`
`22:33.25`	`JeffM2501`	`cus web works just fine`
`22:33.28`	`JeffM2501`	`it's not a masive file`
`22:33.35`	`LordSarpedon`	`Not yet anyway`
`22:33.41`	`JeffM2501`	`won't ever bee`
`22:33.47`	`JeffM2501`	`we can't globalby ban that many people`
`22:33.48`	`BIYA`	`Several possibilities were considered, and a modified solution combining peer-to-peer with the client-server model was put in place`
`22:33.59`	`JeffM2501`	`now I could see the list server system being a distrbuted network`
`22:34.04`	`JeffM2501`	`we have talked about that a number of times.`
`22:34.06`	`LordSarpedon`	`Indeed`
`22:34.16`	`JeffM2501`	`since that is a netowrk that is not latency based`
`22:34.26`	`*** join/#bzflag bzflagwiz (~c02b41f5@webchat.bzflag.bz)`
`22:34.29`	`BIYA`	`Latency remains a serious problem`
`22:34.35`	`JeffM2501`	`yes it does`
`22:34.41`	`JeffM2501`	`you can never get rid of it`
`22:34.49`	`BIYA`	`sucks`
`22:34.52`	`JeffM2501`	`tho there are things we can do to minimse it's effects`
`22:35.01`	`LordSarpedon`	`For a list server, you ca wait a few minutes before your server shows up`
`22:35.04`	`BIYA`	`like what?`
`22:35.12`	`JeffM2501`	`lag comps`
`22:35.17`	`JeffM2501`	`throtleing`
`22:35.18`	`BIYA`	`lol`
`22:35.23`	`JeffM2501`	`timestamps`
`22:35.29`	`JeffM2501`	`centeral authoritve state`
`22:35.39`	`JeffM2501`	`so that when it goes all to hell, there is a state to sync to`
`22:35.57`	`JeffM2501`	`cus it will go all to hell`
`22:36.01`	`JeffM2501`	`at some point`
`22:36.03`	`LordSarpedon`	`priotize updates, so movement updates can be dropped in favor of more important things like flag captures`
`22:36.28`	`JeffM2501`	`that's part of throleing`
`22:36.35`	`JeffM2501`	`I wrote up a large plan on it`
`22:36.38`	`JeffM2501`	`noone wanted to do it`
`22:37.03`	`SportyGal`	`JeffM2501: chris does still work at pixar (at least as of a couple of months ago when we had dinner with him)`
`22:37.09`	`JeffM2501`	`cool`
`22:37.33`	`SportyGal`	`he was working on "cars"`
`22:37.40`	`JeffM2501`	`ahh that looked interesting`
`22:37.47`	`JeffM2501`	`saw the preview in front of incredebles`
`22:38.53`	`JeffM2501`	`LordSarpedon, any major net changes would need to be done in some sort of proof of concept system first, and should go along with a good code cleanup to make it's insertaion easyer.`
`22:40.15`	`LordSarpedon`	`I can make a decent proof of concept fairly quickly in .net`
`22:40.32`	`LordSarpedon`	`Although it would be windows only. Haven't gotten mono working on SuSE`
`22:40.34`	`JeffM2501`	`that plays a 3d game and has the same kind of data?`
`22:40.47`	`LordSarpedon`	`yes, actually`
`22:40.51`	`JeffM2501`	`have at it then`
`22:41.04`	`purple_cow`	`there's a port of ogre to C# ;)`
`22:41.06`	`LordSarpedon`	`I had a semi-working implementation of the BZFLAG protocol a while back`
`22:41.10`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah I saw`
`22:41.25`	`LordSarpedon`	`I've never found a good .net/mono 3d engine`
`22:41.30`	`JeffM2501`	`the changes you are talking about would break proto no mater what`
`22:41.31`	`LordSarpedon`	`But im looking into tao`
`22:41.32`	`JeffM2501`	`use ogre`
`22:41.37`	`JeffM2501`	`ogre == good`
`22:41.43`	`LordSarpedon`	`Well I know, but still :)`
`22:42.15`	`LordSarpedon`	`If you wan't me to rewrite the protocol from the ground up hpwever I feel like, I can do that too...`
`22:42.17`	`JeffM2501`	`a simple object world in ogre shoudl be cake`
`22:42.24`	`JeffM2501`	`for a proof of concept, you can`
`22:42.32`	`JeffM2501`	`all you are doing is showing that it can work`
`22:42.43`	`JeffM2501`	`no major release is compatable with any other`
`22:42.51`	`JeffM2501`	`so we have no legacy requirements`
`22:42.53`	`LordSarpedon`	`...but that would be nasty to redo in c++. Starting from the existing proto, much could be resused`
`22:44.33`	`LordSarpedon`	`...where are the docs on the latest proto? My implementation was from 1.1.08`
`22:44.42`	`LordSarpedon`	`I mean 1.10.8`
`22:45.58`	`SportyGal`	`JeffM2501: will you put a master ban on 65.125.185.2 - he's spamming racist remarks everywhere`
`22:47.04`	`*** join/#bzflag Matt_ (BIYA@dialup-4.129.82.65.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)`
`22:49.04`	`JeffM2501`	`got a username?`
`22:49.24`	`JeffM2501`	`LordSarpedon, for a PoC, it dosn't mater`
`22:49.33`	`JeffM2501`	`just make something that shows how it works better`
`22:49.38`	`SportyGal`	`white aryan resistance`
`22:50.25`	`CIA-5`	`BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 * 10admin/master-bans.txt: spammer`
`22:51.58`	`JeffM2501`	`done`
`22:53.03`	`cosmos`	`i weep for the future.`
`22:53.07`	`wegstar`	`heh.. another californian :(`
`22:53.07`	`LordSarpedon`	`So has the netcode been moved into a single class yet? To make netcode updates easier?`
`22:53.34`	`cosmos`	`wegstar, TBN is headquartered here. scary stuff`
`22:53.45`	`wegstar`	`yep..`
`22:56.28`	`JeffM2501`	`LordSarpedon, ohh god no`
`22:56.38`	`JeffM2501`	`hence why I say it'd have to go with a clean up :)`
`22:56.45`	`JeffM2501`	`and just worry about your PoC`
`22:56.49`	`JeffM2501`	`not the existing stuff`
`22:56.54`	`JeffM2501`	`you gain nothing by being compatable`
`22:57.09`	`JeffM2501`	`since we'd have to change it all anyway`
`22:58.05`	`JeffM2501`	`a proof of concept just shoing low latency play with larger numbers of players on simialr connections would be a good step`
`22:58.34`	`JeffM2501`	`mayve even you would get people to help you rewite it in C# :)`
`22:59.37`	`*** part/#bzflag spldart (~james@adsl-70-240-212-220.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net)`
`23:00.04`	`JeffM2501`	`I had a simple bzflag map renderer done in oger in an evening`
`23:00.35`	`LordSarpedon`	`Never got the hand of 3d rendering :(`
`23:00.41`	`JeffM2501`	`it's easy`
`23:01.24`	`JeffM2501`	`if you got to the point of that's all you neded, I'm sure you could get help on it`
`23:01.24`	`JeffM2501`	`even if you showed me where the stuff was to go, I could probalby hook it up`
`23:04.03`	`SportyGal`	`JeffM2501: thanks`
`23:07.55`	`LordSarpedon`	`hmm...how does SDL tie into OpenGL?`
`23:12.43`	`JeffM2501`	`SportyGal, sure`
`23:13.28`	`JeffM2501`	`TimRiker, what do you think about giving sportchick and cosmos commit access for masterban stuff?`
`23:13.35`	`JeffM2501`	`they seem active in that realm`
`23:13.57`	`JeffM2501`	`or is it good to have it go thru a level of explanation?`
`23:14.07`	`JeffM2501`	`aka them tell me`
`23:15.58`	`JeffM2501`	`LordSarpedon, we use SDL to make the window, and it inits the openGL context for us`
`23:16.13`	`JeffM2501`	`openGL itself dosn't have any "window" type functions`
`23:16.39`	`JeffM2501`	`it usualy leaves the atachment of the 3d conctext to an OS specific window to a set of OS specific functions`
`23:16.39`	`cosmos`	`could have a webform for the masterban stuff that is accessible by server owners. then you can track the ban and reason etc`
`23:16.42`	`Matt_`	`weeeeeeeeooooooooooooo`
`23:16.43`	`JeffM2501`	`SDL wraps that all up`
`23:17.09`	`JeffM2501`	`cosmos, we have tracking now because it's all in CVS`
`23:17.14`	`JeffM2501`	`and we get history support`
`23:17.15`	`cosmos`	`ahh yes`
`23:17.19`	`cosmos`	`nm`
`23:17.40`	`LordSarpedon`	`I see. For my PoC, I think I will attempt an overhead radar type thing`
`23:17.47`	`JeffM2501`	`I'd rather not have EVERY server op in it, as we have seen less then "legit" servers out there`
`23:17.55`	`LordSarpedon`	`Helps see how the other clients are performing, for one thing`
`23:18.06`	`cosmos`	`yeah thats what i meant you put in the server ops that are blessed`
`23:18.06`	`JeffM2501`	`LordSarpedon, you'd want to send 3d data`
`23:18.07`	`Matt_`	`Jeff is there any possible way to minimize the size of a mesh? I made a SolarSystem that is 6000KB+`
`23:18.10`	`JeffM2501`	`so you get a valid set`
`23:18.11`	`cosmos`	`but cvs works great`
`23:18.21`	`Matt_`	`I need it smaller in file size`
`23:18.21`	`JeffM2501`	`Matt_, remove faces`
`23:18.31`	`JeffM2501`	`how many faces are in it?`
`23:18.37`	`Matt_`	`Matt? Err need to change my nick`
`23:18.44`	`JeffM2501`	`umm ok`
`23:18.56`	`BIYA`	`better :)`
`23:18.58`	`*** join/#bzflag triclops (~triclops@c211-31-49-112.rivrw7.nsw.optusnet.com.au)`
`23:19.05`	`JeffM2501`	`did you use some very very teselated spheres?`
`23:19.24`	`BIYA`	`9 planets 2 moons one sun`
`23:19.32`	`JeffM2501`	`how many faces in each planet?`
`23:19.33`	`BIYA`	`11 spheres with`
`23:19.41`	`BIYA`	`Tomany to count`
`23:19.48`	`JeffM2501`	`that would be your problem`
`23:19.49`	`BIYA`	`Teselated them`
`23:19.55`	`BIYA`	`Gotcha`
`23:20.01`	`JeffM2501`	`you have to keep your polycounts low`
`23:20.14`	`JeffM2501`	`dosn't your tool have a face count tool?`
`23:20.16`	`BIYA`	`Is there a way to Deteselate?`
`23:20.28`	`JeffM2501`	`posibly`
`23:20.32`	`JeffM2501`	`but you still need to remove faces`
`23:20.36`	`JeffM2501`	`teselate just makes em triangles`
`23:20.39`	`JeffM2501`	`aka what you want`
`23:20.49`	`BIYA`	`I know`
`23:20.52`	`JeffM2501`	`you want to remove quads and polygons before the teselation`
`23:20.52`	`BIYA`	`ads more faces`
`23:20.59`	`JeffM2501`	`it splits faces`
`23:21.02`	`JeffM2501`	`into triangles`
`23:21.07`	`BIYA`	`yes`
`23:21.12`	`JeffM2501`	`whne you made the spheres`
`23:21.15`	`JeffM2501`	`did they have setings`
`23:21.21`	`JeffM2501`	`for slices and stacks?`
`23:21.33`	`BIYA`	`Yeah but to just change the name`
`23:21.42`	`BIYA`	`umm`
`23:21.44`	`JeffM2501`	`how many slices and stacks did you set?`
`23:21.44`	`BIYA`	`no`
`23:21.58`	`JeffM2501`	`thy must have SOME setings for how many faces they make`
`23:22.07`	`BIYA`	`Still need to learns those....`
`23:22.10`	`BIYA`	`umm`
`23:22.23`	`JeffM2501`	`yesterday you told me exactly how many faces were in your ring`
`23:22.29`	`BIYA`	`yeah`
`23:22.32`	`JeffM2501`	`use that feature to tell me how many in a planet`
`23:22.37`	`*** join/#bzflag wegstar_ (~foo@adsl-67-121-190-35.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net)`
`23:22.37`	`BIYA`	`ooo`
`23:22.57`	`BIYA`	`My rendering will slow down when I look it up in the editor so give me a second`
`23:23.21`	`JeffM2501`	`probalby because you went and added more polygons then you needed`
`23:23.42`	`BIYA`	`I remembered when you told me to teselate it so it didnt have invalid mesh faces`
`23:23.49`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`23:23.55`	`JeffM2501`	`that's a good thing`
`23:24.07`	`BIYA`	`but it gets bigger`
`23:24.07`	`JeffM2501`	`but what was the source shape that you teselated?`
`23:24.13`	`JeffM2501`	`it will get 2x larger`
`23:24.16`	`JeffM2501`	`that is NOT your problem`
`23:24.21`	`JeffM2501`	`it won't add any verts`
`23:24.25`	`JeffM2501`	`just face count`
`23:24.37`	`JeffM2501`	`since bz would have to convert the quads into triangles anyway`
`23:24.52`	`JeffM2501`	`what is your face count`
`23:24.56`	`JeffM2501`	`ether before or after`
`23:25.00`	`BIYA`	`okay. So bz would do it on its own?`
`23:25.00`	`JeffM2501`	`is it over 10,000 ?`
`23:25.13`	`JeffM2501`	`in the end all things have to be come triangles`
`23:25.16`	`BIYA`	`Yeah.... like 60000 somwhat`
`23:25.19`	`JeffM2501`	`dude`
`23:25.22`	`JeffM2501`	`thats way too much`
`23:25.27`	`BIYA`	`told you :)`
`23:25.30`	`JeffM2501`	`a bzflag tank as like 170`
`23:25.38`	`BIYA`	`brb`
`23:25.41`	`JeffM2501`	`fix your spheres`
`23:25.49`	`JeffM2501`	`learn your tool`
`23:25.52`	`BIYA`	`i will`
`23:26.02`	`JeffM2501`	`it has nothing to do with teselation`
`23:26.09`	`JeffM2501`	`as all that would do is take it form 30k to 60k`
`23:26.20`	`JeffM2501`	`30k is still WAYYYY to many`
`23:26.53`	`JeffM2501`	`for you, I'd target a couple hudred per object`
`23:26.58`	`JeffM2501`	`at the most`
`23:27.02`	`JeffM2501`	`that will keep the map sane`
`23:27.47`	`JeffM2501`	`LordSarpedon, like I say, if you get to the display part, I'd be willing to help you out with that part.`
`23:30.20`	`JeffM2501`	`I'm even willing to learn some C#`
`23:39.38`	`LordSarpedon`	`Back`
`23:39.50`	`*** join/#bzflag Mr_Molez (~admin@ACD4B9BC.ipt.aol.com)`
`23:39.51`	`LordSarpedon`	`This OpenGL and SDL is killing me`
`23:40.09`	`JeffM2501`	`did you rebuild SDL?`
`23:41.13`	`LordSarpedon`	`This is on Windows, but still have SDL probs with bz in Linux`
`23:41.29`	`LordSarpedon`	`I'm trying to get basic rendering working for my PoC`
`23:41.31`	`JeffM2501`	`windows dosn't use SDL`
`23:41.33`	`JeffM2501`	`oh`
`23:41.42`	`JeffM2501`	`SDL is not required for GL`
`23:41.49`	`JeffM2501`	`it's just an easy way`
`23:41.56`	`JeffM2501`	`what engine are you using?`
`23:42.02`	`*** join/#bzflag orchid (orchid@orchid.user)`
`23:42.02`	`JeffM2501`	`or just raw GL bindings?`
`23:42.13`	`LordSarpedon`	`Well, using Tao, which is basic GL bindings`
`23:42.41`	`LordSarpedon`	`Part of my prob is lack of pointer support in VB (which this sdl lib shouldn't be using in the first place)`
`23:42.44`	`JeffM2501`	`then they should have something that is similar to the wgl Functions`
`23:42.54`	`LordSarpedon`	`I might switch to Axiom, or perhps gasp DX`
`23:42.58`	`LordSarpedon`	`wgl?`
`23:43.02`	`JeffM2501`	`oh you have vb bindings to SDL`
`23:43.17`	`JeffM2501`	`there are a set of OS specific GL functions that set up GL in a windows window`
`23:43.24`	`JeffM2501`	`they are the WindowsGL functions`
`23:43.28`	`JeffM2501`	`all prefaced with wgl`
`23:43.33`	`JeffM2501`	`wglSetCurrent`
`23:43.35`	`JeffM2501`	`and the like`
`23:43.45`	`LordSarpedon`	`There's a basic control that does all the init and such for me, that just plops into the form`
`23:43.57`	`JeffM2501`	`then how does SDL fit?`
`23:44.07`	`LordSarpedon`	`but what exactly should I do about "No device or rendering context available!"`
`23:44.31`	`LordSarpedon`	`Well, dropping SDL for a while (SDL_GetVideoINfo returns a pointer, which I can't use)`
`23:44.42`	`JeffM2501`	`you should not even need SDL`
`23:44.45`	`JeffM2501`	`not for basic GL`
`23:44.51`	`JeffM2501`	`if your controll is doing it`
`23:45.05`	`JeffM2501`	`it means that it can't find a context that fits what you asked for`
`23:45.20`	`LordSarpedon`	`like depth and such?`
`23:45.23`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`23:45.36`	`JeffM2501`	`or you asked for a stencel buffer and the card dosn't have one`
`23:46.18`	`LordSarpedon`	`I think my x800 should`
`23:46.24`	`JeffM2501`	`matrox?`
`23:46.34`	`JeffM2501`	`or ATI?`
`23:46.46`	`JeffM2501`	`dono what you asked for but some GL features just arn't supported`
`23:46.51`	`JeffM2501`	`like desitnation alpha`
`23:46.58`	`JeffM2501`	`coudl also depend on driver`
`23:47.05`	`JeffM2501`	`since it's the diver that implments GL`
`23:47.15`	`LordSarpedon`	`Heh. There's not a ton of options for this control`
`23:47.28`	`JeffM2501`	`then it has to be asking for some stuff by default`
`23:47.37`	`JeffM2501`	`GL is as GL does :)`
`23:47.46`	`LordSarpedon`	`Yeah...Tao isn't what I'm looking for :)`
`23:48.07`	`JeffM2501`	`your in VB or C#?`
`23:49.54`	`LordSarpedon`	`vb`
`23:50.18`	`LordSarpedon`	`I think I found it...hold on`
`23:50.33`	`JeffM2501`	`ahh`
`23:50.42`	`JeffM2501`	`then I can not sugest an engine for ya :)`
`23:51.01`	`LordSarpedon`	`I seriously need to switch to C#`
`23:51.08`	`JeffM2501`	`so why don't you?`
`23:51.17`	`LordSarpedon`	`By the way, the control had an init function I missed`
`23:51.38`	`LordSarpedon`	`Well...I'd like to, but it's difficult to switch to something new`
`23:51.44`	`LordSarpedon`	`linux, for example`
`23:51.56`	`JeffM2501`	`not realy`
`23:52.07`	`JeffM2501`	`I had my first nix install runing in a day`
`23:52.39`	`JeffM2501`	`but then I chose an easyone to make the transition simple`
`23:53.28`	`LordSarpedon`	`Ive been toying with it for years`
`23:53.46`	`LordSarpedon`	`But I tend to come back to windows again and again for my games`
`23:54.01`	`LordSarpedon`	`not to mention issues such as getting bzflag working`
`23:55.15`	`JeffM2501`	`bz builds fine in a default FC3 or debian environ`
`23:55.33`	`JeffM2501`	`apt is your friend :)`
`23:55.40`	`LordSarpedon`	`Yeah`
`23:56.02`	`LordSarpedon`	`I might be able to use a precompiled binary, since it is likely my missing something that is mucking the whole thing up`
`23:58.32`	`JeffM2501`	`of the 2 linux distos I hear the most problems with are mandrake an suse`
`23:59.19`	`LordSarpedon`	`I should switch to fc...never content as I am, it seems, lol`
`23:59.33`	`LordSarpedon`	`...whats the gl class for a 3d vector?`
`23:59.42`	`JeffM2501`	`there isn't one`
`23:59.44`	`JeffM2501`	`GL has no classes`
`23:59.46`	`JeffM2501`	`or 3d math`
`23:59.51`	`JeffM2501`	`all it does is draw triangles`
`23:59.54`	`JeffM2501`	`REALY REALY fast`
`23:59.57`	`LordSarpedon`	`I see`

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