| 05:24:10 | captain_proton | ibot, x es en ayala |
| 05:24:11 | | captain_proton: ayala |
| 05:24:16 | captain_proton | ibot, x sp en ayala |
| 05:24:17 | | captain_proton: |
| 05:24:22 | captain_proton | rofl |
| 05:44:11 | captain_proton | uptime wars! |
| 05:44:23 | vogon_jeltz | 9:46pm up 2 days, 4:40, 4 users, load average: 1.00, 1.02, 1.00 |
| 05:44:37 | captain_proton | 10:43pm up 3 days, 8:29, 10 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 |
| 05:44:39 | captain_proton | hehe |
| 06:27:39 | BZFlag | crs is counting the hours till cvs commit of the new code. |
| 07:32:09 | vogon_jeltz | is away: TV |
| 08:40:39 | jacques | MrApathyCream: heh I just got killed by you many many times |
| 09:02:02 | MrApathyCream | heh |
| 09:47:35 | fontenot | I am having a problem with bzflag - anyone awake? |
| 09:47:59 | fontenot | I am unable to increase brightness 1.7e4 and nvidia binary drivers |
| 09:48:32 | fontenot | strangely, my other machine works fine and has same version and also nvidia binary drivers (tho those may be slightly different version) |
| 14:21:26 | Bologna_2002_M | hello |
| 14:21:34 | Bologna_2002_M | anyone playing bzflag now? |
| 14:22:03 | Bologna_2002_M | nick jim2002 |
| 14:22:11 | jim2002 | ls |
| 14:22:17 | jim2002 | hellooo |
| 15:46:38 | fontenot | BZFlag: this game rocks |
| 15:47:17 | Chestal | hi |
| 15:47:57 | fontenot | ive only been playing for a couple of hours and I'm already addicted |
| 15:48:11 | Chestal | that will only become worse :-) |
| 15:48:26 | fontenot | oh no |
| 15:48:42 | fontenot | that might not be a good thing |
| 15:49:26 | Chestal | try different servers at different times of day to see where your lag is best and what style of play you like best |
| 15:49:45 | fontenot | yeah I'm already developing some preferences |
| 15:50:00 | Chestal | I advise playing without jumping to learn how to evade shots, but then I advise to play withotu jumping anyway |
| 15:50:10 | fontenot | but my main problem is I dont know the maps - assuming the flags are always in the same places? |
| 15:50:22 | Chestal | well, there are random maps and custom worlds |
| 15:50:23 | fontenot | yeah I dont know how to evade |
| 15:50:34 | Chestal | generally I don't play custom worlds |
| 15:50:43 | fontenot | I've only played on a jumping lots of shots lots of flags server |
| 15:50:49 | fontenot | ah |
| 15:50:58 | Chestal | but flags should be at random positions in custom worlds, too |
| 15:51:13 | fontenot | how do ppl always get the laser and GM then? |
| 15:51:22 | Chestal | only recentlty there was a patch to allow the server admin to restrict certain flags to certain areas |
| 15:51:39 | fontenot | hmm, some ppl seem to find the laser and GM very quickly |
| 15:51:51 | Chestal | well, when you die, your flag will drop there or vanishes |
| 15:52:02 | Chestal | some people just remember the place and go for it again |
| 15:52:03 | fontenot | oh I didn't know that either |
| 15:52:37 | fontenot | I think a 1 shot non-jumping no flag map might be more fun |
| 15:52:39 | Chestal | biggest problem with bzflag IMHO is the lag, it will hopefully be a little better with the next major release |
| 15:52:46 | fontenot | cool |
| 15:52:50 | Chestal | I uses to play 1-shot, no jumping |
| 15:53:09 | fontenot | my problem is finding a close server with ppl on it |
| 15:53:11 | Chestal | now I play mostly 2shots, no jumping, ricochet and no flags |
| 15:53:16 | Chestal | the two ducati servers are mine |
| 15:53:17 | fontenot | that sounds good too |
| 15:53:26 | fontenot | I dont mind ricochet |
| 15:53:29 | Chestal | server is in Gerany though, so I don't know about your lag |
| 15:53:33 | Chestal | ricohet is a must :-) |
| 15:53:39 | fontenot | right - I am in the bay area US |
| 15:53:53 | fontenot | all the server with ppl have about 150ms ping times |
| 15:53:57 | Chestal | the 2nd ducati is a CTF server for team play, that's my favourite, at least when there are good people there |
| 15:54:28 | Chestal | you can try to traceroute ducati.bzflag.org to estimate minimum lag |
| 15:54:47 | fontenot | 170ms |
| 15:54:58 | fontenot | to nearest hop |
| 15:55:02 | Chestal | that's not optimal, but still ok |
| 15:55:05 | fontenot | ar-marburg2.g-win.dfn.de |
| 15:55:22 | fontenot | what is the max ping value you would recommend? |
| 15:55:24 | Chestal | you know you can check in-game lag with /lagstats? |
| 15:55:28 | fontenot | no |
| 15:55:33 | fontenot | also, how do I check fps? |
| 15:55:50 | Chestal | pressing 't' will add a fps display to your HUD |
| 15:55:56 | fontenot | ah, thanks |
| 15:55:56 | Chestal | use 'f' for flag help |
| 15:56:13 | fontenot | yeah I need to start reading the help - I just compiled bzflag and started playing |
| 15:56:14 | Chestal | just use 'n' as if you would liek to send a message and type '/lagstats' |
| 15:56:23 | Chestal | this will give you a list of players and lag estimates |
| 15:56:28 | fontenot | nice |
| 15:56:38 | fontenot | I dont even know what a lot of the flags do |
| 15:56:39 | Chestal | because it's a hack, the server can only measure ag each time a player kills another tank |
| 15:56:44 | Chestal | this will get better with the next version |
| 15:57:00 | fontenot | I think the netcode is already pretty good |
| 15:57:10 | Chestal | it's ok, but is has some problems |
| 15:57:12 | fontenot | if it gets better it will be amazing |
| 15:57:22 | fontenot | but then I have only played for a few hours :-) |
| 15:57:27 | Chestal | do you have cable or DSL or? |
| 15:57:34 | fontenot | I have dsl |
| 15:57:39 | Chestal | ok, me too |
| 15:58:00 | Chestal | sometimes lag can get annoying. At least we need a better measurement of connection quality / lag on the server |
| 15:58:12 | Chestal | so we can restrict the server to players which ave good connectivity to that server |
| 15:58:26 | Chestal | using 1.7E4 I guess? |
| 15:58:27 | fontenot | right, it can be annoying when ppl are warping |
| 15:58:29 | fontenot | yes |
| 15:58:38 | Chestal | Linux? |
| 15:58:42 | fontenot | yep |
| 15:58:50 | fontenot | nvidia geforce2 ultra |
| 15:58:51 | Chestal | hardware accelerated |
| 15:58:52 | Chestal | ah |
| 15:59:11 | fontenot | with nvidia binary drivers 1.0-2313 |
| 15:59:12 | Chestal | my dri just broke when I updated my debain two days ago, textures aren't working anymore |
| 15:59:24 | Chestal | but mostyla I play at work with software rendering only |
| 15:59:27 | fontenot | what hardware are you using? ati? matrox? |
| 15:59:36 | Chestal | at home, Matrox G400 |
| 15:59:57 | fontenot | I installed a geforce2mx in my work machine :-) |
| 16:00:09 | Chestal | I got an old ATI at work |
| 16:00:22 | Chestal | but I am used to it, I setup a 2nd x server with 800x600x8bit |
| 16:00:35 | fontenot | for speed? |
| 16:00:35 | Chestal | dependign on whats in view I get 10-40 fps, mostly around 20-30 |
| 16:00:51 | fontenot | I assume you tirn down the eye candy too? |
| 16:00:52 | Chestal | this is with all fancy options turned off, of course |
| 16:00:56 | fontenot | right |
| 16:00:58 | Chestal | yep, only usin glighting |
| 16:01:10 | fontenot | I have everything on - it's very pretty :-) |
| 16:01:14 | Chestal | I am so used to it, I cannot play any other way |
| 16:01:36 | Chestal | it's only bad when I am near buildings, and radar resolution is quite bad with 800x600 |
| 16:01:45 | Chestal | you know, you can switch radar zoom with 1,2,3 |
| 16:01:56 | fontenot | oh cool |
| 16:02:06 | fontenot | i dont know anything :-) |
| 16:02:13 | fontenot | except move and fire |
| 16:02:16 | fontenot | and jump |
| 16:02:56 | Chestal | you can send messages with 'n' (to all), 'm' (to team) or ',' (to last one you killed or were killed by) |
| 16:03:10 | fontenot | heh , sounds useful |
| 16:04:24 | Chestal | I do not like most of the servers with many shots and lots of flags, too much random killing there |
| 16:04:41 | Chestal | and there are a lot of peopel camping with powerful flags, e.g. guides missile on buildings |
| 16:04:49 | fontenot | i agree, though they are fast paced |
| 16:04:57 | Chestal | yes, they can be fun sometimes |
| 16:05:02 | fontenot | yes i got killed many times by ppl on buildings with GM |
| 16:05:14 | fontenot | GM are hard to avoid |
| 16:05:27 | Chestal | check out ducati.bzflag.org 5156 later in the day, IMHO CTF is great fun |
| 16:05:35 | fontenot | the lock-on warning seems to happen immediately before I get hit |
| 16:05:38 | Chestal | yes, though GMs can be avoided |
| 16:05:58 | Chestal | you know you can right-click to identify other tanks and their flags? |
| 16:06:00 | fontenot | yes I really like CTF - I have played a lot of it in Unreal Tournament |
| 16:06:08 | Chestal | and 's' shows scoreboard |
| 16:06:08 | fontenot | lots more strategy |
| 16:06:19 | fontenot | didnt know about s - but I did know about right click |
| 16:06:58 | Chestal | what's IMHO most amazign about the game is that it is quite old |
| 16:07:01 | fontenot | i used to play lots of battlezone too (the pc game) |
| 16:07:07 | fontenot | heh |
| 16:07:11 | fontenot | wanna talk about old |
| 16:07:18 | fontenot | I used to be addicted to xtank |
| 16:07:23 | fontenot | ever play that? |
| 16:07:29 | Chestal | nope |
| 16:07:42 | fontenot | top-down 2d tank game - multiplayer |
| 16:07:43 | Chestal | I played wumpus, though .-) |
| 16:07:54 | fontenot | but the problem was that it was not client-server |
| 16:08:06 | fontenot | one process started the displays on all the clients |
| 16:08:19 | Chestal | ah, like with xskat |
| 16:08:27 | fontenot | so you needed a really fast network (for the time) and a fast server machine |
| 16:08:48 | fontenot | I always wanted someone to rewrite is as client-server because it was a very fun game |
| 16:08:51 | Chestal | bzflag has a dumb server approach, i.e. the clients are doing al the work |
| 16:08:54 | fontenot | you built your own tank |
| 16:09:02 | Chestal | server is merely an enhanced relay |
| 16:09:12 | fontenot | chose body, motivators, weapons turrets |
| 16:09:35 | Chestal | hmm, thre's no xtank debian package in my list |
| 16:09:37 | fontenot | and each part cost money, and when you killed somebody, your score was based on the value of your tank versus the value of theirs |
| 16:10:07 | fontenot | so if you built a really expensive tank and killed a really cheap tank, you didn't get many points |
| 16:10:31 | fontenot | and there was this weird hockey mode |
| 16:10:53 | Chestal | did you play this at university? |
| 16:11:13 | fontenot | yeah |
| 16:11:21 | fontenot | search google for unix xtank game |
| 16:11:29 | fontenot | you will find lots of links |
| 16:12:17 | fontenot | and apparently there is still rec.games.xtank.play |
| 16:16:08 | fontenot | but it predated the web so there aren't exactly any xtank pages |
| 16:16:55 | Chestal | yep, found no screenshots, only .tgz |
| 16:17:16 | Chestal | is planning his evening |
| 16:17:28 | Chestal | did you by chance see 'Amores Perros'? |
| 16:17:42 | fontenot | no, what is it? |
| 16:18:05 | Chestal | a Mexican Movie, it's pure coincidence that I noticed it it showing here today, and only today |
| 16:18:14 | Chestal | it's got very high rates in the IMDB |
| 16:18:36 | Chestal | or shoudl I've said 'ratings', hmm? |
| 16:19:24 | fontenot | ratings is correct |
| 16:19:57 | fontenot | sounds like "love of dogs" |
| 16:20:01 | Chestal | what's your bz callsign, btw.? |
| 16:20:06 | fontenot | jacques |
| 16:20:11 | Chestal | hmm |
| 16:20:21 | fontenot | which is my other irc callsign too |
| 16:20:27 | | Chestal: i'm not following you... |
| 16:20:27 | Chestal | ibot, x e en amores perros |
| 16:20:32 | fontenot | I am still logged on from work - thus jacques_gone |
| 16:20:33 | | Chestal: huh? |
| 16:20:33 | Chestal | ibot, x esp en amores perros |
| 16:21:00 | Chestal | ibot, x sp en amores perros |
| 16:21:00 | | Chestal: loves dogs |
| 16:21:27 | fontenot | (08:23:42) linuxjacques: translate amores perros from spanish to english |
| 16:21:27 | fontenot | (08:23:43) SmarterChild: "loves dogs" |
| 16:21:30 | Chestal | I guess your translation is superior |
| 16:21:44 | Chestal | hmm |
| 16:21:44 | fontenot | yeah because loved dogs does not make as much sense :-) |
| 16:21:52 | fontenot | loves I mean |
| 16:22:10 | fontenot | maybe it's about women who love bad men |
| 16:22:32 | fontenot | or maybe it's really about dogs |
| 16:22:36 | fontenot | :-) |
| 16:22:58 | Chestal | no, it's a drams about love, loss, hate and all those things |
| 16:23:24 | fontenot | ah, ok |
| 16:23:27 | Chestal | I guess part of it is about a person whose beloved dogs die |
| 16:23:59 | fontenot | actually I would probably translate it as "for the love of dogs" |
| 16:24:14 | Chestal | so, you speak some Spanish? |
| 16:24:28 | fontenot | hmm, no, maybe "the love of dogs" |
| 16:24:32 | fontenot | a little |
| 16:24:47 | fontenot | I spoke it from age 3 to 7 :-) |
| 16:24:49 | Chestal | I do not, although when readings spanish I can sometimes guess the meaning, seems to be an easy language to learn |
| 16:24:59 | fontenot | yes it is relatively easy |
| 16:25:04 | fontenot | much easier than english |
| 16:25:23 | fontenot | and it's a romance language so it shares latin roots with lots of other languages |
| 16:25:37 | fontenot | french, portuguese, italian |
| 16:25:41 | Chestal | learned Latin in school and forgot all of it since |
| 16:26:24 | Chestal | the only other language I learned is English, everybody in Germany learns that in school |
| 16:26:48 | Chestal | so most yound and middle aged Germans can at least read English rather well |
| 16:27:02 | Chestal | speaking and understanding spoken English is a different matter though |
| 16:27:15 | fontenot | that's interesting |
| 16:27:38 | fontenot | i took two years of high school latin |
| 16:27:41 | fontenot | i really liked it |
| 16:27:52 | fontenot | but i remember very little now :-\ |
| 16:28:35 | Chestal | Latin is very hard to master |
| 16:29:08 | Chestal | translatign a single sentence was more like deciphering than reading |
| 16:29:17 | fontenot | heh |
| 16:30:15 | fontenot | well bzflag kept me up much later than I intended |
| 16:30:19 | fontenot | I should go to sleep now |
| 16:30:23 | fontenot | it was nice talking to you |
| 16:31:03 | Chestal | oh, I thought it was mornign where you are? |
| 16:31:13 | fontenot | yes it is but I work a late shift |
| 16:31:21 | Chestal | anyway, see you on the battlefield these days :-) |
| 16:31:30 | fontenot | yes :-) |
| 16:31:31 | Chestal | I'll have dinner now |
| 16:31:43 | fontenot | ok, have a good one |
| 16:31:53 | Chestal | sweet dreams :-) |
| 16:31:58 | fontenot | thanks |
| 17:09:42 | vogon_jeltz | is back (gone 09:37:33) |
| 17:41:23 | vogon_jeltz | is away: shower |
| 18:03:52 | vogon_jeltz | is back (gone 00:22:29) |
| 20:58:31 | BZFlag | hey! crs is cvsing! |
| 21:42:49 | Zdog | chestal sorry to bother u again, but a green tanker name paulcen is not responding |
| 21:43:07 | Zdog | he/she is playing behind a firewall or just a buggy client |
| 21:45:26 | Zdog | help, please |
| 21:47:49 | Zdog | anyone |
| 21:50:12 | gerbil | Hey Chestal |
| 21:50:26 | gerbil | oh Chestal |
| 21:50:38 | gerbil | Hello Chestal |
| 21:51:00 | gerbil | FYI--player on ducati flags is playing with firewall and blackhatted |
| 21:51:11 | gerbil | keeps running flag in and noone can see him |
| 21:51:17 | gerbil | kick him please |
| 21:51:32 | gerbil | he will not respond |
| 21:51:40 | gerbil | for God's sake helpus man!! |
| 21:51:50 | gerbil | nthe humanity...oh, the humanity!! |
| 21:52:03 | gerbil | So is like anyone else here? |
| 21:53:11 | Zdog | chestal?? u here |
| 21:53:18 | Zdog | hey gerbil |
| 21:54:39 | Zdog | please help, ducati, green tanker: paulcen |
| 21:54:55 | Zdog | he is black capped, but could get flag |
| 22:18:25 | gerbil | Hello? |
| 22:29:08 | Chestal | hi |
| 22:30:26 | crs23 | hi all! |
| 22:30:41 | vogon_jeltz | whazzuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup? |
| 22:32:01 | crs23 | The big news is that i just checked in my big patch into the tree. |
| 22:33:40 | Chestal | I saw it, got lots of mail :-) |
| 22:35:53 | crs23 | yeah, i did too. the messages are a little weird. why are they broken up like that? |
| 22:36:40 | Chestal | I guess one mail per file that changed in CVS. Tim activated ths some months ago I think |
| 22:37:22 | crs23 | oh. okay. i guess he's away right now. |
| 22:38:18 | Chestal | he has been away a lot lately |
| 22:41:00 | crs23 | oh? he's been quick to respond to email. |
| 22:41:32 | crs23 | he said he'll start on the network code once i got my files checked in. woo hoo! |
| 22:43:35 | Chestal | sounds great |
| 22:43:51 | Chestal | I would very much like to discuss network code issues with Tim |
| 22:44:12 | Chestal | I hacked some chaages into the current code to see how it perfoms |
| 22:44:21 | crs23 | yeah? what'd you find out? |
| 22:44:37 | Chestal | well, I tried several things, didn't have as much time as I hoped |
| 22:44:55 | Chestal | I started by doing some network stats in the server |
| 22:45:22 | Chestal | main result: peopel with high framerates have very high peak packet rates |
| 22:45:35 | crs23 | makes sense. guess we need to throttle that. |
| 22:45:55 | Chestal | I guess in addition to the current dead reckonign code the client can easily throttle that, its only one lien of code |
| 22:46:05 | Chestal | I also added simple server-side throttling |
| 22:46:29 | crs23 | i'd like to make a network stats view for debugging on the client. maybe a strip chart. |
| 22:46:30 | Chestal | which limits the max. rate of playerupdate msgs per player which are broadcast by the server |
| 22:47:08 | crs23 | ah, nice. does the code put multiple message into single packets yet? |
| 22:47:09 | Chestal | my two byfs servers have been using server-side throttlign for some weeks now, with 30 pps max. |
| 22:47:22 | Chestal | no, nothign like that, its 100% compatabile with current clients |
| 22:47:33 | Chestal | just some incremental and experimental changes |
| 22:47:44 | crs23 | 30 pps max? that's 30 packets per second over all users, right? |
| 22:47:49 | Chestal | no, per user |
| 22:47:57 | crs23 | oh! that sounds like a lot. |
| 22:48:00 | Chestal | it helps cuttin gthose high peak rates |
| 22:48:10 | Chestal | the average is much lowr of course |
| 22:48:14 | crs23 | ah. |
| 22:48:32 | crs23 | well, lets rip out all the networking and rewrite it. |
| 22:48:42 | Chestal | on my CTF server with throttlign to 30pps and a max. of playrs the peak number of packets/s sent by the server is now about 800 |
| 22:48:58 | Chestal | withotu throttling it can get much higher |
| 22:49:06 | crs23 | wow! |
| 22:49:21 | Chestal | I did an evil server patch where I duplicated each tank, one throttled, one not so you could see the difference |
| 22:49:43 | Chestal | with 30pps even peopel with very fast connections can see virtually no difference |
| 22:49:52 | Chestal | 20-25 should also be ok, but not quite that accurate |
| 22:50:00 | crs23 | interesting. |
| 22:50:05 | Chestal | and client-side throttling would be better anyway, because now I have to delay some packets |
| 22:50:21 | crs23 | should it be based on client frame rate? |
| 22:50:27 | Chestal | and delayed packets are not compensated, which coul dbe done by adjustign the dead reckoning |
| 22:50:31 | crs23 | i mean the server throttling |
| 22:51:10 | Chestal | I don't know. SOe kidn of adaptive throttlign would be nice, but I am not sure how one would best approach this |
| 22:51:21 | crs23 | okay. |
| 22:51:33 | Chestal | furthermore I added some extra bytes to MsgPlayerUpdate for sequence numbers |
| 22:51:41 | Chestal | so server can detect if messages are lost or received out of order |
| 22:51:45 | crs23 | let me tell you the current plan... |
| 22:52:18 | Chestal | so far, zero packets were lost, I did a test with one German Guy and DSL and one from the US and 56k |
| 22:52:44 | Chestal | the 56k user has some out of order packets, though. If he throttles his client to 30pps, nearly no out of order packets anymore |
| 22:53:04 | crs23 | you and tim definitely need to talk. |
| 22:53:23 | Chestal | I also added explicit UDP ping messages for lag measurement, that's much better than the current hack, though of course needs a client change |
| 22:54:01 | crs23 | what i'd like is a solid UDP based communication class and to build on that. |
| 22:54:14 | Chestal | do you favour droppign TCP? |
| 22:54:17 | crs23 | sounds like you and tim should hammer out a design. |
| 22:54:24 | crs23 | yes. TCP begone! |
| 22:54:31 | Chestal | hmm, I am not so sure about this |
| 22:54:53 | crs23 | i think we should layer our own reliable communication on UDP |
| 22:54:56 | Chestal | I don't say it's wrong to drop TCP; but I am not sure if it's so easy to use UDP only and whether it has enough advantages |
| 22:55:19 | crs23 | we get to control the retry algorithm |
| 22:55:54 | crs23 | of course, the same UDP socket will be for unreliable stuff too |
| 22:56:40 | Chestal | changign only the UDP code would be very easy of course, things like sequence numbers to detect ou tof order and ost msgs are very easy to do |
| 22:57:04 | Chestal | I guess the main point is: what are we trying to achieve? where are the weaknesses of the current code |
| 22:57:36 | crs23 | one thing i want is for *all* the platform dependent network code to move into the net directory. that's one goal. |
| 22:57:43 | Chestal | on eobective is to reduce lag or the effects of lag, of course. But it's not so clear what the la gis caused by and what can be done about it |
| 22:57:59 | crs23 | yes, reducing lag is a primary objective. |
| 22:58:39 | Chestal | thigns like throttling will help if one client's connectin is congested by bz packets |
| 22:58:45 | captain_proton | comes back |
| 22:58:54 | captain_proton | hi crs23 |
| 22:58:55 | Chestal | but the high roudn trip times may also be caused by somethign external in which case we cannot do very much |
| 22:59:02 | crs23 | hi captain_proton |
| 22:59:07 | Chestal | don't know if its possible to detect this |
| 22:59:28 | crs23 | true, there's only so much we can control |
| 22:59:48 | captain_proton | checks out cvs |
| 23:00:05 | Chestal | there are also some strange issued which I do not yet know the cuase for, e.g. some players with German DSL have quite low lag (about 80ms), but sometimes I see their tank jumping to a different place and back for <<1s |
| 23:00:05 | crs23 | but an important start is to centralize the network code so fixes are easier |
| 23:00:24 | Chestal | I agree that the network code must be cleaned up |
| 23:00:44 | crs23 | that's weird. maybe an out of order packet? though i don't see how that could cause it. |
| 23:01:03 | Chestal | currently we have too many peopel with getting it to work. SOme guy came here yesterday and couldn't play with 1.7e4 in his LAN, maybe because multicastign is seriously broken now |
| 23:01:25 | Chestal | crs23: no, lupinator was running my seqno patch and no packret swere lost and none out of order |
| 23:01:32 | Chestal | it looks quite strange |
| 23:01:33 | crs23 | yeah. like i said: rip it out and start over. |
| 23:01:49 | Chestal | next thign I wanted to check was dt between messages |
| 23:02:06 | Chestal | ideally dts between sends of PlayerUpdate and dts bewteen receiving the packets should be equal |
| 23:02:09 | crs23 | i think we can drop multicast too. it's not widely supported enough. perhaps it can be layered back on later |
| 23:02:25 | captain_proton | i agree about that |
| 23:02:27 | crs23 | ideally but i doubt that's what happens |
| 23:02:35 | Chestal | yes, I also voter for dropping it. In theory, it's the way to go, but I guess we can add that later |
| 23:02:58 | Chestal | I thought about sending dts within the packets, and each receiver can measure dt and compare |
| 23:03:14 | Chestal | if they deviate, the deadreckonign code coudl try and compensate |
| 23:03:28 | crs23 | interesting. |
| 23:03:48 | Chestal | sometimes you see people getting netdead and then all their queues UDP packets get received |
| 23:03:57 | Chestal | you woudl think that those packets woudl have been dropped instead, but no |
| 23:04:13 | Chestal | looks like far less UDP packets get dropped than I initially thought |
| 23:04:22 | crs23 | well that's good news. |
| 23:04:51 | Chestal | as I said, so far I haven't found one packet lost |
| 23:05:10 | Chestal | o fcourse that#s only with 3 players using my patched version so far, myself, German DSL and MrAPathyCream with his dialup connetion |
| 23:05:15 | captain_proton | whoa - its incompatible with old servers |
| 23:05:22 | captain_proton | i like the rotating tank ;) |
| 23:05:32 | crs23 | thanks :-) |
| 23:05:50 | captain_proton | crs23: can it use the old map files? |
| 23:05:57 | Chestal | needs to get his dri fixed, it stopped working on the last update |
| 23:06:04 | crs23 | it's only incompatible because of the ServerVersion in Protocol.h |
| 23:06:11 | captain_proton | crs23: ahh k |
| 23:06:24 | crs23 | Change that back to BZFS107e to use existing servers. |
| 23:06:53 | crs23 | i didn't update bzfs much so it still uses the existing map files but... |
| 23:07:17 | crs23 | i'd like to start using the XML parser and define a new format |
| 23:07:38 | crs23 | v1.8 isn't going to be constrained by earlier versions |
| 23:07:47 | Chestal | is it ok to use more of the C++ standard library in the new version? |
| 23:08:07 | Chestal | would be nice if we could agree on C++ codign issues |
| 23:08:17 | crs23 | yeah, i mention both of those in DEVINFO... |
| 23:08:23 | Chestal | so, what part of the standard library to use, whether we use exceptions etc. |
| 23:08:25 | captain_proton | crs23: does your xml parser support real xml yet? |
| 23:08:33 | Chestal | ah, haven't read it yet, I need to checkout 1.8 |
| 23:08:39 | crs23 | for C++, boolean is out and bool is in. use std C++ lib all you like except std::string. |
| 23:08:52 | Chestal | how do I do it, btw.? I harly know how to use CVS |
| 23:08:56 | crs23 | exceptions are okay as are templates |
| 23:08:59 | captain_proton | why don't se use std::string? |
| 23:09:19 | crs23 | BzfString is still there and i don't want two string types, that's all. |
| 23:09:39 | crs23 | they're fairly compatible. i even renamed some methods to match. |
| 23:09:56 | crs23 | Chestal: try cvs up -UdA |
| 23:10:11 | captain_proton | at some point could we go through and change everything to use std::string? |
| 23:10:13 | crs23 | captain_proton: no the XML parser is still a bit broken |
| 23:10:18 | Chestal | crs: hmm, hwo does it knw what code branch I want? |
| 23:10:50 | captain_proton | crs23: because a friend of mine wrote an stl-style xml parser |
| 23:10:59 | crs23 | oops, make that -PdA. |
| 23:11:20 | crs23 | i think the -A means get me the latest. |
| 23:11:26 | Chestal | ah, ok |
| 23:11:40 | Chestal | will hav eto be careful with that, so my current source doesn not get overwritten |
| 23:11:58 | crs23 | captain_proton: you could see about swapping in your friend's code but mine is pretty close to right. |
| 23:12:26 | crs23 | Chestal: cvs should be careful for you but i suggest moving aside your changes |
| 23:12:36 | Chestal | heh, on a side note: I vote for not usgn tabs in the src anymore, those always drive me mad |
| 23:12:49 | crs23 | captain_proton: mine is just too lax |
| 23:13:13 | captain_proton | crs23: gorgeous |
| 23:13:14 | crs23 | Chestal: uh oh. i replaced all indentation with tabs! at least now it's consistent. :-) |
| 23:13:35 | Chestal | guess, I'll have to tell my editor to not replace tabs with spaces then |
| 23:13:36 | captain_proton | ugh...should be 2 spaces =) |
| 23:13:49 | Chestal | yep, 2 spaced identation is the onyl way to go :_) |
| 23:14:08 | crs23 | ha! let the indentation flame wars begin. |
| 23:14:16 | captain_proton | we should also use 1TBS ;) |
| 23:14:28 | Chestal | what's that? |
| 23:14:30 | crs23 | TBS? |
| 23:14:39 | captain_proton | the 1 true brace style |
| 23:14:40 | captain_proton | K&R |
| 23:14:49 | Chestal | I think we already do that? |
| 23:14:57 | Chestal | thoguh I personally disliek it |
| 23:14:59 | captain_proton | i'm not sure its consistant |
| 23:15:06 | crs23 | no, it's a little different i think. |
| 23:15:10 | Chestal | I always tried to guess how to format code |
| 23:15:17 | crs23 | anyway, DEVINFO decribes some formatting rules. |
| 23:15:29 | Chestal | e.g. the curernt code seems to put one sace besides most operators |
| 23:15:56 | crs23 | hmm, i should add that rule. also one about spaces around operators. |
| 23:15:57 | Chestal | is ident or some other tool powerful and c++ aware enough to automatically reformat? |
| 23:16:06 | captain_proton | i don't think so |
| 23:16:18 | captain_proton | but we should be hacking at this enough to reformat it all anyhoo =) |
| 23:16:46 | captain_proton | what would you say about me going through and replacing all the BzfStrings with std::strings? |
| 23:16:57 | Chestal | well, my problem is, when I start hacking new code it tends to be in my personal style first |
| 23:17:00 | captain_proton | if we're gonna go STL, we should go STL |
| 23:17:03 | Chestal | so I have to always reformat it later on |
| 23:17:40 | crs23 | captain_proton: knock yourself out. i hope everybody's std::string uses ref counting. |
| 23:17:42 | Chestal | capain: try and see what it does to code size, sadly enough g++ seems to produce some code bloat with templates |
| 23:18:09 | Chestal | we coudl repalce all high-level-arrays with vectors also :-) |
| 23:18:44 | captain_proton | actually i was experimenting with this XML class this guy wrote recently - heavy use of templates, and g++ did wonders |
| 23:18:49 | crs23 | yeah, some places still implement their own arrays but AList is gone |
| 23:19:12 | crs23 | i didn't touch bzfs too much yet so there's much to do in it. |
| 23:19:42 | Chestal | btw. what about g++3.0 and other conformant compilers? shoudl we switch to the non-.h includes and add using namespace std for now? |
| 23:19:46 | captain_proton | i think bzfs is gonna be tim's big project |
| 23:19:56 | captain_proton | Chestal: not using namespace - std:: |
| 23:19:57 | crs23 | Chestal: use cvs diff to find you changes then reformat them before submitting a patch. |
| 23:20:10 | captain_proton | Chestal: i should have a gcc 3.0 compliance patch for v1_7 soon |
| 23:20:37 | Chestal | not that I would use g++3 for now |
| 23:20:45 | crs23 | Chestal: the new code uses the non-.h headers for std c++ lib stuff. |
| 23:20:47 | Chestal | its lib is not up-to-par, at least last time I checked it wasn't |
| 23:21:18 | Chestal | does MrApathyCream use Visual C++? or any of you? |
| 23:21:24 | Chestal | we shoudl ahve at least one who does |
| 23:21:33 | captain_proton | g++3 is nice but its too strict - building a system with it is a pain |
| 23:21:41 | crs23 | bzflag uses std:: where necessary but doesn't use using anywhere. |
| 23:21:48 | Chestal | do we need to code aroudn some vc6.0 bugs? like the infamour for-scope-feature? |
| 23:21:50 | crs23 | i have visual C++. new code compiles cleanly. |
| 23:21:58 | captain_proton | i suggest we avoid using |
| 23:22:28 | crs23 | Chestal: yes, you have to work around it. |
| 23:23:13 | Chestal | what about puttng #define for if (false) ; else in our winplatform.h ;-) |
| 23:23:26 | Chestal | #define for if (false) ; else for of course |
| 23:23:49 | captain_proton | Chestal: what would that do? |
| 23:24:06 | Chestal | captain_proton: that fixes the for scoping problem and has - to my knowedge - no disadvantages whatsoever |
| 23:24:06 | crs23 | hmm, i didn't know that one. does that always work as expected? |
| 23:24:22 | Chestal | it's recommended in the Usenet C*+ FAQs I read |
| 23:24:24 | captain_proton | didn't know there was a for scoping problem |
| 23:24:31 | Chestal | it's ugly but seems to have no problems |
| 23:24:32 | crs23 | hey, i'm okay with it. but it should go into common.h |
| 23:25:11 | Chestal | captain: well, with the default vc++ settings the following does compile which it shouldn't: |
| 23:25:26 | Chestal | for (int i=0;;) {} i=5; |
| 23:26:03 | crs23 | that shouldn't be a problem. |
| 23:26:32 | captain_proton | ahh hmmm |
| 23:26:33 | captain_proton | yuck |
| 23:26:39 | Chestal | only a tiny detail anyway. I guess the other problems of vc++ shouldn't touch us, mostly template related I think |
| 23:26:41 | captain_proton | grrr @ microsoft |
| 23:27:37 | crs23 | i used vc++ routinely at work. it's generally decent, though i generates crappy code. |
| 23:27:48 | crs23 | rather it generates, not i generates. |
| 23:28:24 | Chestal | hmm, I thought it would optimize bette ron x86 than gnu does |
| 23:28:47 | crs23 | well, it might. i haven't looked at the g++ generated code. |
| 23:29:04 | captain_proton | g++ generates beautiful code |
| 23:29:06 | crs23 | and don't get me wrong. i could go on for hours about problems in vc++. :-) |
| 23:29:06 | Chestal | kai/intel c++ should be best I guess |
| 23:29:14 | crs23 | yes, i agree. |
| 23:29:22 | captain_proton | oh well |
| 23:29:24 | captain_proton | i must leave |
| 23:29:34 | captain_proton | i get my new instrument in about 30 minutes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| 23:29:43 | captain_proton | shouts a bunch |
| 23:29:49 | Chestal | isntrument? |
| 23:30:09 | captain_proton | i play the cello - and i'm getting a new custom made one from one of the top instrument makers in the world |
| 23:30:12 | captain_proton | is very happy |
| 23:30:29 | captain_proton | i bid you all a fond farewell |
| 23:30:36 | captain_proton | and crs23 - you should hang out here more =) |
| 23:30:48 | crs23 | see ya! :) |
| 23:31:53 | crs23 | when you check out the new code be sure to look at data/view.bzc |
| 23:32:20 | crs23 | you can define your own display layouts using it |
| 23:32:35 | Chestal | ah, can finally make my radar fullscreen? :-) |
| 23:33:09 | crs23 | yep, piece of cake! |
| 23:33:31 | crs23 | you can even switch layouts at runtime using the in-game console. |
| 23:33:56 | Chestal | btw., do you have any idea why som many GL implementations seem to have problems with bz? Experienced this on windows mainly |
| 23:34:41 | Chestal | sounds nice, I'll really have to give it a try these days |
| 23:34:41 | crs23 | no, i don't. hopefully these changes will help. i haven't fully centralized all the OpenGL code yet but ... |
| 23:35:13 | crs23 | when drawing the scene graph, all the rendering code is in a single file and all primitives are drawn by a single line of code. |
| 23:35:30 | crs23 | it should make fixing bugs or working around driver bugs easier. |
| 23:36:23 | Chestal | I'm curious how it will perform with MESA software rendering, but I'll see |
| 23:36:49 | Chestal | which reminds me, since updatign my woody, my DRI is broken, tetxures do not work anymore |
| 23:36:59 | crs23 | badly, i'm afraid. i dropped support for turning off rendering options for now. |
| 23:37:07 | Chestal | uuuh |
| 23:37:19 | crs23 | but i'll put that back in! don't worry. |
| 23:37:23 | Chestal | this will make it virtually impossible to try it on machie at work |
| 23:37:29 | crs23 | sorry to hear your DRI is broken. |
| 23:37:36 | Chestal | it's slow enough with everyhtign switched off |
| 23:37:48 | Chestal | maybe I'll continue updatign and swtich to sid :-) |
| 23:38:07 | crs23 | you could hack a couple of lines and keep textures turned off all the time. |
| 23:43:02 | crs23 | well, it's a nice day here so i'm going to go enjoy it. see ya. |
| 23:44:17 | Chestal | have fun |
| 23:57:52 | Chestal | hi MAC |