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| 04:01.44 | IriX64 | http://rafb.net/p/6LDPvm30.html <---- this happens at install time, any way around it? |
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| 07:29.51 | Sk3letrOn | hey bitch got a problem with me? |
| 07:30.02 | brlcad | Sk3letrOn: in that channel with your language, absolutely |
| 07:30.14 | brlcad | here I'll just as well tell you to go fuck yourself if you can't behave |
| 07:30.21 | Sk3letrOn | hahaha |
| 07:30.26 | Sk3letrOn | be nice to me |
| 07:30.28 | Sk3letrOn | ok? |
| 07:30.40 | brlcad | the way you're acting, I have no reason to |
| 07:30.46 | brlcad | you have to earn respect |
| 07:30.46 | Sk3letrOn | yes! I insist |
| 07:30.58 | Sk3letrOn | I was reading over some logs |
| 07:30.59 | brlcad | which you don't get by acting like a presumptuous ass |
| 07:31.00 | Sk3letrOn | I found something |
| 07:31.04 | Sk3letrOn | I need to talk to blast |
| 07:31.12 | brlcad | you should have thought about that beforehand |
| 07:31.22 | Sk3letrOn | but he won't listen to me |
| 07:31.32 | brlcad | figure that one out |
| 07:31.38 | brlcad | wonder why |
| 07:31.52 | Sk3letrOn | ok I will I'll go ahead and use what I found then maybe you wil respect me |
| 07:31.56 | Sk3letrOn | :D |
| 07:31.57 | Sk3letrOn | bye |
| 07:31.58 | brlcad | not likely |
| 07:32.06 | brlcad | there are plenty of ways to be an ass |
| 07:36.08 | Ralith | hehe. |
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| 09:40.04 | *** topic/#brlcad is BRL-CAD Open Source Solid Modeling || http://brlcad.org || http://sf.net/projects/brlcad || GSoC 2008 Highlight: new prototype gui, check it out! || Source Release 7.14.0 is now posted (20081108) |
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| 10:43.42 | mafm | hi |
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| 16:55.03 | brlcad | howdy mafm |
| 16:55.13 | brlcad | oh, missed madant |
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| 19:05.48 | kanzure_ | Hi all. Someone's been mentioning to me how CSG is ancient/old/out-of-date, but I was wondering what the latest modeling kernels are doing if not CGS. |
| 19:06.14 | kanzure_ | CSG* |
| 19:07.12 | kanzure_ | b-rep looks to be compatible. |
| 19:14.03 | brlcad | kanzure_: that's a much longer discussion |
| 19:14.58 | brlcad | that perspective by itself is rather naive/ignorant of the history of CAD development too and how CSG with implicits relate to other modeling forms |
| 19:15.54 | brlcad | CSG by itself is just a geometric operation, which pretty much every major CAD system supports to varying degrees of usefulness |
| 19:16.20 | poolio | b-rep is in the works :) |
| 19:16.28 | brlcad | the deeper issue is the underlying geometry, whether it is represented by an explicit boundary representation or implicit mathematical forms |
| 19:16.53 | poolio | howdy brlcad, how were the holidays? |
| 19:16.58 | brlcad | the two aren't exclusive either, you can at least go from implicit to explicit (just not easily the other way around) |
| 19:17.03 | brlcad | poolio: they are/were great :) |
| 19:17.08 | brlcad | merry christmas |
| 19:17.09 | poolio | ah cool, still off? |
| 19:17.12 | brlcad | sorta |
| 19:17.15 | poolio | and happy new year |
| 19:18.25 | brlcad | likewise! |
| 19:19.15 | poolio | you watching the game or are you not a football fan? |
| 19:19.22 | brlcad | kanzure_: most of the modern best practices focus around parametric modeling and feature-based editing operations (which have little to do with the csg vs brep vs implicit vs explicit debate), they're higher-level constructs |
| 19:21.51 | brlcad | poolio: oh, I'd just tuned it in a few minutes ago |
| 19:22.12 | brlcad | could hear the neighbors cheering, the entire neighborhood is big fandom |
| 19:22.22 | brlcad | watching it in HD is pretty sweet |
| 19:23.17 | poolio | yeah, it makes watching sports so much nicer. It's a high stakes game for me - my roommate is from miami :) |
| 19:23.37 | brlcad | hah |
| 19:23.46 | brlcad | so you're rubbing it in now, I take it ;) |
| 19:24.22 | brlcad | looks like it'll be 13-3 or 17-3 here in a couple mins :) |
| 19:27.08 | kanzure_ | brlcad: I see. |
| 19:27.46 | brlcad | it is a pretty true statement that we lack several of the higher-level constructs |
| 19:27.54 | kanzure_ | For geometrical constriants (for parametrics), it would seem to me just something that an extra script could do to check and update some numbers in an mged script or something. This is my simple understand though, there's better stuff that could be done. |
| 19:28.10 | brlcad | that's true |
| 19:28.34 | brlcad | that's also why more of our focus is on ensuring that the underpinnings are solid, guarantees of solidity and numerics, etc |
| 19:29.19 | brlcad | we are working on bidirectional BREP, big priority (as that really makes arbitrary parametric editing easier as well as tessellation) |
| 19:29.41 | brlcad | but that's still pretty independent of having parametric editing and feature-based edits |
| 19:30.23 | brlcad | most feature-based edits could similarly be represented as a series of CSG operations (actually *considerably* more efficient than via a BREP approach) |
| 19:31.20 | brlcad | since actions like "add a hole on this face with this diameter and this bevel" amount to a CSG subtraction of the hole shape |
| 19:33.32 | kanzure_ | hrm, this same person mentions "free-cad" as looking like something that will "get there sooner than BRLCAD" (but to where? he makes a comparison to Solidworks, hrm) |
| 19:33.38 | kanzure_ | checks out free-cad on sourceforge |
| 19:33.49 | brlcad | hehe |
| 19:33.50 | kanzure_ | http://freecad.juergen-riegel.net/Docu/ |
| 19:34.01 | brlcad | I wish them the best |
| 19:34.19 | brlcad | that's an even more exceptionally naive statement |
| 19:34.54 | kanzure_ | ah, free-cad is a feature-based parametric modeler |
| 19:36.09 | brlcad | what most people don't realize is the magnitude of effort required to make a production-quality CAD system -- it's not like making a game or web browser or office application |
| 19:36.40 | kanzure_ | bah, making a web browser isn't easy either |
| 19:36.48 | kanzure_ | points to the short list of available layout engines |
| 19:37.21 | brlcad | most of the big commercial CAD systems have *thousands* of staff-years of effort invested (some have tens of thousands) |
| 19:37.30 | kanzure_ | WebKit, Gecko, KHTML, gtkHTML. (Then there's Trident and whatever Opera uses, which are closed source) |
| 19:38.03 | louipc | if someone gets there sooner than later I'd be happy :D |
| 19:38.08 | louipc | but I'd put my money on brl-cad |
| 19:38.34 | brlcad | louipc: I'd be happy if folks just collaborated more -- there are lots of one/two-man efforts |
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| 19:38.42 | kanzure_ | nods |
| 19:38.50 | kanzure_ | that was somewhat the point of the open manufacturing group when it started |
| 19:39.02 | brlcad | they get something up on a gui quickly and get a few screenshots, people are impressed, but then realize that it's absolutely useless for production use |
| 19:39.04 | kanzure_ | trying to pick up where some of the other mailing lists died, like the open-cad-format list, linux-cad list, etc. |
| 19:39.18 | louipc | hehe yep |
| 19:39.34 | kanzure_ | there's also avocad-ro. |
| 19:40.09 | louipc | but only so much can come from hobbyists and such, industry really needs to see open source as a real possible alternative |
| 19:40.10 | brlcad | BRL-CAD has about 400 staff-years effort invested, which is about 300 more than the next group .. and we're still pretty far away from hitting a usability mark |
| 19:40.40 | brlcad | kanzure_: avocado is even less along than freecad (but the guy is at least much better on his marketing) |
| 19:41.38 | kanzure_ | so while we're on this topic, I mentioned the open manufacturing group :) |
| 19:41.40 | brlcad | there's a couple other efforts that are even more impressive proof-of-concepts, but still -- they're years away from any level of usability |
| 19:41.58 | kanzure_ | http://openmanufacturing.net/ and http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing |
| 19:42.23 | kanzure_ | there are too many islands of efforts, but I don't have a solution really |
| 19:42.27 | brlcad | ~nibm |
| 19:42.28 | ibot | i heard nibm is "Not Implemented By Me" - a syndrome often suffered by developers that tend to reinvent the wheel or fork development for no reason other than not being able, willing, or interested in working with others, or for being able to put their name on it. |
| 19:42.37 | brlcad | ~nih |
| 19:42.38 | ibot | [nih] \"Not Invented Here\" - a syndrome often suffered by developers and companies who tend to reinvent the wheel for no reason other than being able to put their name on it. |
| 19:42.41 | louipc | heh I googled "open manufacturing group" and I didn't get anything on the first page |
| 19:43.28 | brlcad | kanzure_: that's why most of my interest over the past year has been for getting involved more in community and collaborative efforts |
| 19:43.37 | kanzure_ | louipc: I google 'open manufacturing' without quotes and get a good hit on the first page. |
| 19:44.05 | louipc | haha that's glx gears |
| 19:44.09 | kanzure_ | yes :) |
| 19:44.10 | brlcad | even our team, which has major funded backing by the u.s. gov't, won't keep pace with the industry expectations without getting a lot more people involved |
| 19:44.14 | kanzure_ | I apologize upfront for that picture, btw. |
| 19:44.21 | kanzure_ | it was late one night .. I wasn't thinking straight .. |
| 19:44.41 | brlcad | kanzure_: hehe |
| 19:44.45 | louipc | oh openi see |
| 19:44.50 | kanzure_ | ? |
| 19:45.13 | louipc | nvm |
| 19:45.43 | kanzure_ | brlcad: another issue is probably the general misunderstanding of what's going on |
| 19:45.59 | kanzure_ | for instance, this person that I've been writing a lengthy email to, might have a few confusions about parametric modelers, brep, etc., |
| 19:46.13 | kanzure_ | it wouldn't be the first time somebody had their "history of software" kinda all wrong ;) |
| 19:46.43 | parodyoflanguage | Hey all, I never introduced myself. Right now I'm just reading through the manual and just trying to get up and running with BRL-CAD. I took AutoCAD in high school, but I don't have the money for that program and I've come to appreciate the free software philosophy. |
| 19:46.56 | louipc | kanzure_: trying to sell brl-cad? |
| 19:47.03 | parodyoflanguage | Hope you don't mind me lurking :) |
| 19:47.19 | louipc | parodyoflanguage: cheers :D |
| 19:47.30 | kanzure_ | louipc: sort of. :) I am working [with others] on a 'hardware packaging format' (like .deb) |
| 19:47.41 | louipc | cool |
| 19:47.44 | kanzure_ | so I recommended dot g instead of dot STL |
| 19:47.54 | kanzure_ | as the CAD-data internal to the package |
| 19:48.20 | kanzure_ | IGES/STEP might win out in the end. Don't know. |
| 19:48.22 | louipc | well, different applications might call for different formats |
| 19:48.26 | brlcad | kanzure_: maybe of interest, this has a really high-level overview of the longer-term project priorities: http://brlcad.org/BRL-CAD_Priorities.png |
| 19:48.47 | kanzure_ | thanks |
| 19:49.46 | kanzure_ | louipc: that's true, but the "just have a lot of small tools to work with everything" mindset is good IMHO |
| 19:49.54 | kanzure_ | and if you can package all of those tools together, even better. |
| 19:50.08 | parodyoflanguage | You guys are still funded by the military? Wow. |
| 19:50.10 | louipc | you could do it like video haha |
| 19:50.22 | louipc | your packaging format will be the container |
| 19:50.46 | louipc | and the geometry format may differ |
| 19:51.03 | brlcad | kanzure_: also, reference for your friend that explains the industry we are most closely concerned with (from the leading researching in this domain), http://www.gvu.gatech.edu/~jarek/papers/SolidModelingWebster.pdf |
| 19:51.25 | brlcad | louipc: sell brl-cad? that's not a goal of mine |
| 19:51.37 | kanzure_ | louipc: yes, I just released a 250 MB zip file with Creative Commons-licensed clips for the construction of a video, last night |
| 19:51.39 | brlcad | parodyoflanguage: howdy and welcome! |
| 19:51.45 | brlcad | lurk as much as you like |
| 19:52.13 | parodyoflanguage | Thanks :) |
| 19:52.31 | kanzure_ | brlcad: out of curiosity, where can I find the architecture notes for the new kernel mentioned in that PNG? |
| 19:52.39 | louipc | brlcad: no, kanzure_ is trying to sell brl-cad, sell as in promote. |
| 19:52.41 | brlcad | kanzure_: I wouldn't recommend IGES -- STEP is a lot harder but more familiar (and something I'd be happy to collaborate one) |
| 19:52.55 | brlcad | our .g format is more flexible and much higher-performing in general |
| 19:54.52 | brlcad | parodyoflanguage: yep, still funded .. substantial investment -- it's the primary code used for all vulnerability/lethality assessments performed by the DoD (on just about all military assets) |
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| 19:56.21 | parodyoflanguage | brlcad: Wow. I somehow thought that such software would be classified :) |
| 19:56.21 | brlcad | kanzure_: some of the docs for it are on the wiki on the website |
| 19:56.21 | brlcad | louipc: ah, misunderstood -- gotya ;) |
| 19:56.21 | parodyoflanguage | brlcad: Just to ask, is there any sort of integration with finite element analysis or plans for such integration? |
| 19:56.21 | brlcad | parodyoflanguage: the code that performs the analysis is not public |
| 19:56.21 | brlcad | brl-cad is just the geometry processing portion providing geometric representation and geometry analysis services (shotlining) |
| 19:57.03 | parodyoflanguage | Okay. So the FEM part is classified. |
| 19:57.12 | brlcad | there is no direct integration with FEA services (or plans for that) but we can certainly import/export a FEM and provide facilities for managing the geometry |
| 19:57.40 | kanzure_ | parodyoflanguage: see OpenFOAM, OpenFlower, etc. |
| 19:57.40 | brlcad | the V/L analysis are not FEA |
| 19:57.42 | parodyoflanguage | Okay, that's what I wanted to know. Thanks :) |
| 19:58.42 | brlcad | there is a BRL-CAD to Cubit exporter that makes it pretty easy to take any .g and end up with a FEM suitable for a given FEA |
| 19:58.51 | brlcad | but you have to have the (dirt cheap) cubit license to make it work |
| 19:59.30 | DanielFalck | brlcad: does the Cubit license give you other export formats too? |
| 19:59.54 | DanielFalck | acis? |
| 20:01.48 | brlcad | Cubit hooks into acis (and is the reason why they have to charge a license fee) |
| 20:02.03 | brlcad | so once in Cubit, you can export to just about anything that acis supports |
| 20:02.34 | DanielFalck | ok |
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