| 00:09.13 | *** join/#brlcad marko1 (n=mark@pool-98-116-244-145.nycmny.east.verizon.net) |
| 00:09.44 | brlcad | polo1! |
| 00:42.47 | CIA-62 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r33242 10/brlcad/trunk/TODO: |
| 00:42.47 | CIA-62 | BRL-CAD: this has come up before but was revived today with a request from marko1 for |
| 00:42.47 | CIA-62 | BRL-CAD: infix notation support. need to renew efforts at adding support that was |
| 00:42.47 | CIA-62 | BRL-CAD: started with comb_bool_parse which added classical infix with fully |
| 00:42.47 | CIA-62 | BRL-CAD: parenthetical expression support but was never completed/integrated. |
| 00:47.09 | marko1 | that would be useful |
| 00:47.50 | brlcad | yeah, it's come up many times over the years, but it's just been pretty low-priority |
| 00:48.08 | brlcad | since it only affects new users, and usually only their first couple days |
| 00:48.58 | Ralith | infix notation? |
| 00:49.03 | brlcad | it's been implemented for like 10 years, just not integrated/tested .. the original dev didn't take it to completion and nobody else has stepped up |
| 00:49.33 | brlcad | Ralith: yeah, for the CSG expressions when you create combinations within mged |
| 00:49.40 | Ralith | can you give an example? |
| 00:49.44 | Ralith | isn't familiar with the term |
| 00:49.57 | brlcad | which term? |
| 00:50.00 | brlcad | infix? |
| 00:50.03 | Ralith | yeah |
| 00:50.13 | brlcad | infix is what you learned in school |
| 00:50.18 | Ralith | rings a bell |
| 00:50.31 | brlcad | a + b = c .. '+' is an infix operator |
| 00:50.39 | Ralith | ahh. |
| 00:50.46 | Ralith | as opposed to brl-cad's tree notation. |
| 00:50.50 | brlcad | opposed to doing something like "a b +" .. postfix operator or "+ a b" prefix operator |
| 00:50.58 | brlcad | we use prefix |
| 00:51.06 | brlcad | right |
| 00:51.09 | Ralith | that too :P |
| 00:51.27 | brlcad | because prefix lends itself directly to the tree representation, the geometry hierarchy that results directly correlates |
| 00:52.42 | brlcad | it would be cool to be able to use parens with infix |
| 00:54.21 | Ralith | it would indeed. |
| 00:54.33 | Ralith | I haven't done much parsing before, but wouldn't it be fairly trivial to handle? |
| 00:54.54 | Ralith | I mean, one could probably even simply wrap the existing system |
| 01:00.01 | *** join/#brlcad IriX64 (n=mariodot@bas2-sudbury98-1096601041.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 01:10.25 | brlcad | yeah, but it is actually nearly fully implemented already, including boolean expression optimization/rewriting |
| 01:10.31 | brlcad | just not hooked into anything |
| 01:17.13 | Ralith | heh |
| 01:24.12 | *** join/#brlcad Twingy (n=justin@74.92.144.217) |
| 01:37.50 | *** join/#brlcad marko1 (n=mark@pool-98-116-244-145.nycmny.east.verizon.net) |
| 01:49.26 | *** join/#brlcad marko1 (n=mark@pool-98-116-244-145.nycmny.east.verizon.net) |
| 02:02.41 | *** join/#brlcad marko1 (n=mark@pool-98-116-244-145.nycmny.east.verizon.net) |
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| 03:49.15 | *** join/#brlcad CIA-62 (n=CIA@208.69.182.149) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 05:04.35 | yukonbob | hello, cadheads |
| 06:35.35 | *** join/#brlcad clock_ (n=clock@77-58-236-98.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 07:15.56 | brlcad | howdy yukonbob |
| 07:38.01 | *** join/#brlcad Ralith (n=ralith@216.162.199.202) |
| 08:05.57 | CIA-62 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r33243 10/brlcad/trunk/src/libged/typein.c: |
| 08:05.57 | CIA-62 | BRL-CAD: merge in all of the latest pnts changes that were made to old/previous |
| 08:05.57 | CIA-62 | BRL-CAD: implementation but not to the libged migrated/new version. this duality |
| 08:05.57 | CIA-62 | BRL-CAD: shouldn't survive for much longer hopefully. this hooks in all of the new point |
| 08:05.57 | CIA-62 | BRL-CAD: functionality for normals, point-specific sizes, and more. only compile-time |
| 08:05.58 | CIA-62 | BRL-CAD: checked. |
| 08:59.30 | *** join/#brlcad clock_ (n=clock@84-72-91-240.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 11:54.44 | AFK-claymore | Morning all. |
| 11:57.11 | *** join/#brlcad mafm (n=mafm@elnet-111.lip.pt) |
| 11:58.28 | claymore | Mornin mafm |
| 11:59.09 | mafm | hi claymore |
| 11:59.10 | mafm | and the rest |
| 12:13.55 | claymore | mafm: How are things on your side of the world? |
| 12:14.30 | mafm | fighting with the lab to get out :( |
| 12:14.53 | claymore | whoa, whats that mean? |
| 12:40.21 | mafm | that I'm trying to know, after 3 weeks, when I can get out |
| 12:40.36 | mafm | I spent this week learning about laws because of that |
| 12:40.52 | claymore | oh, your current job or school? |
| 12:41.06 | mafm | to know how much of holidays I can get from my 60-day leave period |
| 12:41.09 | mafm | current job |
| 12:42.05 | mafm | I just went to talk with the director, and he's going to talk with my boss again... this thing never ends :) |
| 12:42.32 | mafm | brb, lunch |
| 12:43.51 | claymore | wow just to get a holiday.... |
| 12:43.57 | claymore | tell them I said its okay. |
| 12:44.05 | claymore | that should do it :D |
| 12:47.33 | *** join/#brlcad alex_joni (n=juve@emc/board-of-directors/alexjoni) |
| 12:49.24 | archivist | being in a smaller company is easier, tell boss! |
| 13:14.35 | mafm | claymore: probably it would be better, yes |
| 13:16.03 | mafm | well, the thing is that they didn't want me to have holidays in the last period |
| 13:16.45 | claymore | mafm: why not? |
| 13:16.51 | *** join/#brlcad marko1 (n=mark@cpe-74-72-195-92.nyc.res.rr.com) |
| 13:17.53 | claymore | mornin marko1 ! You up in New York City? |
| 13:18.05 | mafm | they're pissed off or something, I don't really know |
| 13:18.45 | marko1 | morning |
| 13:18.58 | claymore | mafm: Hrm, well, if you are entitled to X days off per year, then you *should* be able to take them without repercussions... |
| 13:19.07 | claymore | unless your managers suck. |
| 13:19.36 | archivist | some companies have rules for holidays but you should be told before joining |
| 13:21.34 | mafm | yes, that's the point |
| 13:21.56 | mafm | so I elaborated a document about that, and now nobody wants to read it telling that it's not their responsibility/area |
| 13:22.20 | mafm | not even my boss, who is affected somewhat by the fact that I don't have to work for much longer that he expected |
| 13:22.40 | mafm | and who insisted in me staying until christmas |
| 13:22.56 | mafm | so well, I don't really know if everybody is becoming crazy or what :D |
| 13:23.23 | claymore | so you are leaving the company and they asked you to stay on till Christmas, but now are telling you you can't have time off? |
| 13:23.30 | mafm | (I never had problems before and never thought that I would have to do this kind of thing, but apparently they're really pissed off) |
| 13:23.36 | mafm | yes |
| 13:23.45 | mafm | basically I wouldn't work in all december |
| 13:24.28 | archivist | they should offer moneyz! |
| 13:24.29 | mafm | my initial proposal was to work until 12th or so (friday), but they insisted, so I counted all days and I wouldn't have to work in all december really |
| 13:24.31 | claymore | When you leave the company, do they reimburse your for accrued Timeoff that you didn't take? |
| 13:25.19 | mafm | well, I just want them to tell me something... they just refuse to listen, so they basically don't tell me anything |
| 13:26.07 | mafm | that's why I went to talk with the head of the lab, so he (hopefully) fix things top-to-bottom |
| 13:26.19 | claymore | mafm: i only ask that last question because, if they don't have to reimburse you for unused time off, then its in their best interests to get the most work out of you they can. Its a crappy way to treat employees, but it happens a lot. |
| 13:26.29 | archivist | you have rights!, see your company agreement and your countries employment laws |
| 13:27.33 | mafm | yes, that's what I've been doing in the past few days :) |
| 13:27.34 | claymore | archivist is correct. even if no one at your workplace will listen to your complaints, there is always someone higher that will. The higher you go, the more painful it becomes for your boss ;) |
| 13:27.58 | claymore | marko1: you get all your questions with brlcad sorted out yesterday? |
| 13:28.03 | mafm | and yes, I think that my boss talking to the head of the lab is gonig to prove efective :D |
| 13:28.22 | mafm | or the head of the lab talking to my boss, either way |
| 13:29.16 | mafm | strange thing is that we never had problems before and we had very good relations, so I don't really understand why this happens :( |
| 13:29.21 | claymore | well good, at least someone has their head on straight. |
| 13:29.46 | claymore | mafm: how long have you been working there? |
| 13:29.46 | mafm | 2 years and 3 months |
| 13:29.46 | archivist | boss here needs educating in UK employment law |
| 13:31.27 | mafm | sigh :) |
| 13:31.41 | mafm | well, it should be fixed within weeks anyway |
| 13:32.14 | claymore | That is strange mafm. How did your boss take the news that you were leaving? Anger, resentful, indifferent? |
| 13:32.28 | mafm | then hopefully I can finish my degree project, and then maybe I have time to work again in g3d and all these things \o/ |
| 13:33.19 | mafm | worried, the next day resentful (I will be the only one in the lab not having free days in christmas), now he seems indifferent :D |
| 13:35.53 | claymore | Okay, sounds like you have just been on the good side of a medeocre manager. Managers that let too much emotion into their decision making process are NOT good managers at all, imo. |
| 13:36.55 | claymore | Now that you have committed a personal slight against your manager, aka leaving, then they will react as an immature person might... by making yoru life harder. |
| 13:37.13 | claymore | Sad really. |
| 13:37.44 | mafm | yes, that's more or less what I think that is happening :) |
| 13:38.12 | mafm | he's quite good on the technical side (albeit a bit outdated) but he's an awful manager in general |
| 13:38.46 | claymore | Well, is there any incentive for you if you are give 2 weeks notice and leave when you have said you will? aka, good recommendations to your next job? |
| 13:39.01 | mafm | in the sense that he micromanages when you ask some indication, he doesn't care for months when you don't, and in general he doesn't take profit of each person's abilities, which is the main point of a manager |
| 13:40.01 | mafm | (outdated as in... insisting that my ER diagrams are not ER, and then he repaints an older similar diagram, network relations or something like that, outdated by ER diagrams :D) |
| 13:40.25 | mafm | I had to give 60-days notice |
| 13:41.00 | claymore | right, but whats the drawback if you dont give 60days notice and just leave? |
| 13:41.09 | mafm | and there are no consequences for my next job, but maybe so for future jobs (CERN...) |
| 13:41.33 | mafm | or even similar labs to this one |
| 13:43.17 | mafm | one of them is very close to my hometown, so it might be a problem, yes |
| 13:44.13 | claymore | well, if there are not any drawbacks to just leaving, and your boss still won't give you the time you are due, contact your local government to see what Grievance procedures are available. ;) |
| 13:45.05 | archivist | quality of references for the future can be a concern |
| 13:45.43 | archivist | but poor treatment while there does not bode well for references either |
| 13:46.06 | mafm | yes, that's why I don't want to take "severe" actions or anything |
| 13:47.50 | claymore | Well then, we have different takes on things then. I refuse to let people get away with crappy treatment of me or my immediate co-workers. And yes, it makes waves. But wrong is wrong. |
| 13:47.52 | archivist | I would never go to a previous company for a reference as they treated me poorly |
| 13:48.54 | mafm | yes, well, I'm defending myself, but not in a childish way |
| 13:49.30 | marko1 | mafm: you work in physics? |
| 13:49.39 | claymore | and good onya for it mafm. |
| 13:49.46 | mafm | so I presented the document signed, with legal references and so on, so unless they invoke strange things (like having especial periods of holidays, that we don't really have, etc) they can't do much |
| 13:50.18 | archivist | its a choice, I have been informed here about redundancy. So Im hanging on for best severance terms |
| 13:50.28 | mafm | but, if they don't tell me that I agree, I still can't be sure of expecting when to live, to tell the owner of the house and so on |
| 13:50.33 | mafm | marko1: yes |
| 13:50.57 | mafm | when to live->leave* :) |
| 13:51.17 | marko1 | mafm: cool! I'm starting a physics project |
| 13:51.24 | marko1 | http://prometheusfusionperfection.wordpress.com/ |
| 13:51.46 | marko1 | you can see the BRLCAD output |
| 13:51.54 | mafm | well I'm not a physicist, I just happen to work in a physics lab |
| 13:51.58 | mafm | but in the Grid area |
| 13:52.00 | marko1 | same |
| 13:52.43 | claymore | marko1: You are doing this as a hobby? |
| 13:52.57 | mafm | heh, nice pics |
| 13:53.18 | marko1 | hobby, with aspirations to commercialize this technology |
| 13:53.26 | marko1 | I'm an entrepreneur by trade |
| 13:53.41 | marko1 | tech entrepreneur |
| 13:54.27 | claymore | neat! In my past life, I was a nuclear/electrical engineer with the Navy :) |
| 13:54.41 | clock_ | claymore: you mean NEET? |
| 13:55.22 | marko1 | well clearly BRLCAD is the right tool for the job if you guys are using it |
| 13:55.33 | claymore | so i probably shouldnt need to remind you about power generation/radiation emitting device permits you may need lest you get in big trouble :) |
| 13:56.01 | marko1 | well no radiation at this stage |
| 13:56.04 | marko1 | just magnets |
| 13:56.33 | marko1 | and the polywell is intended to run a radiation free reaction |
| 13:56.38 | claymore | clock_: Are you talking about Naval Electrical Engineering Training manuals? |
| 13:56.53 | marko1 | hydrogen + boron = 3 helium |
| 13:56.59 | mafm | marko1: if you mean "you" as me and my lab, no, we don't... my relation with brlcad is something completely different (TM) |
| 13:57.13 | mafm | but probably is the right tool for you, yes |
| 13:57.32 | marko1 | yeah, I'v had success with it |
| 13:57.40 | marko1 | I needed a command line more than a gui |
| 13:57.46 | marko1 | so I can program my drawings |
| 13:58.39 | claymore | marko1: dont forget that any medium to high energy charged particle IS radiation. e.g. bremsstrahlung |
| 13:59.08 | marko1 | technicality! |
| 13:59.13 | claymore | lol |
| 13:59.49 | clock_ | claymore: yes NEETS :) |
| 13:59.54 | clock_ | claymore: coil winding! I love coil winding! |
| 13:59.55 | ``Erik_ | lifts a cheek and radiates some |
| 14:00.12 | claymore | ``Erik_: pig :P |
| 14:00.22 | archivist | marko1, "working on a computer controlled coil winder" what control are you using |
| 14:00.29 | marko1 | arduino |
| 14:00.31 | clock_ | I I needed a DIY repeatable coil with precise inductance and capacitance |
| 14:00.41 | marko1 | I'll be opensourcing all the tech |
| 14:00.44 | clock_ | And ended up with a form made of 3 plastic bolts tied together with cable straps |
| 14:00.47 | clock_ | Works excellent! |
| 14:00.47 | archivist | marko1, are the hard way |
| 14:00.50 | archivist | ah |
| 14:00.54 | claymore | clock_: the NEETs modules are only training manuals. The good stuff is still all basically Non-disclosure stuff. |
| 14:01.05 | clock_ | 2.73uH and 1.2pF better then commercial coils totally stable parameters no Barkhausen nouise! |
| 14:01.24 | archivist | marko1, I use EMC for cnc control, its open source |
| 14:01.35 | clock_ | do you know Reprap? |
| 14:01.38 | marko1 | archivist: thanks for the tip |
| 14:01.42 | clock_ | It's a self-replicating CNC |
| 14:01.48 | marko1 | I'm working with zach from reprap |
| 14:01.49 | marko1 | actually |
| 14:01.53 | claymore | looks at the irc channel.... My God... its full of Geeks... |
| 14:01.53 | clock_ | lol |
| 14:02.00 | marko1 | I'm hacking a reprap to make the coil winder |
| 14:02.16 | clock_ | can reprap make plastic screws? |
| 14:02.22 | marko1 | so the x axis will be the coil guide |
| 14:02.36 | marko1 | screws are store bought |
| 14:02.37 | clock_ | marko1: don't then need people for reprap development? :) |
| 14:02.38 | archivist | 3 EMC people in here |
| 14:02.55 | archivist | at least |
| 14:03.15 | clock_ | I hope reprap can take brl-cad source and rasterize ;-) |
| 14:03.22 | marko1 | stl files |
| 14:03.37 | clock_ | I don't know even if STL is open source |
| 14:03.48 | claymore | archivist: EMC means Electricians Mate Chief to me... whats it mean to you? :) |
| 14:04.00 | clock_ | ElectroMagnetic Compatibility? ;-) |
| 14:04.05 | archivist | Enhanced Machine Control |
| 14:04.10 | alex_joni | v2 |
| 14:04.20 | archivist | :) |
| 14:04.32 | clock_ | Is this multi-coil polyhedron put into an evacuated space? |
| 14:04.45 | marko1 | needs a vacuum yes |
| 14:04.56 | clock_ | I heard someone made a homemade CRT |
| 14:05.13 | clock_ | By throwing a hose with water from a high window and since the column was >10m he got a vacuum |
| 14:05.21 | clock_ | Maybe you use the same technique |
| 14:05.27 | marko1 | ha! |
| 14:05.30 | marko1 | that's funny |
| 14:05.43 | clock_ | And he used marmelade jar for the actual electron tube |
| 14:05.44 | marko1 | well, a good hack is always welcome |
| 14:06.21 | archivist | that only gets down to the vapour pressure |
| 14:06.29 | clock_ | I would also wonder |
| 14:07.18 | clock_ | I always wondered what happens if you take a CRT put the tip into a bathtub full of water and then break off with pliers |
| 14:07.32 | clock_ | And when the CRT is full of water, turn the TV set on |
| 14:07.40 | clock_ | Maybe insert some fish and water plants... |
| 14:07.53 | alex_joni | clock_: might work with oil |
| 14:08.07 | clock_ | maybe he used oil |
| 14:08.13 | claymore | demineralized oil... |
| 14:08.21 | clock_ | oil is used in vacuum pumps |
| 14:08.35 | claymore | had disturbing visions of fish dying a 13kV death..... |
| 14:08.43 | alex_joni | I saw some oil cooling for PC's once.. |
| 14:08.53 | alex_joni | fully submerged in oil.. no fans or anything |
| 14:08.55 | clock_ | Recently I used a skateboard oil to fix my vice |
| 14:09.00 | marko1 | brb |
| 14:09.12 | alex_joni | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtufuXLvOok |
| 14:10.11 | clock_ | When I mentioned the skateboard |
| 14:10.18 | clock_ | We already had a man walking on the moon |
| 14:10.27 | claymore | alex_joni: Any fluid suffieciently de-ionized to prevent conductivity can be used as a coolant that can be in direct contact with electronics. |
| 14:10.31 | clock_ | But not yet riding a skateboard in a half-pipe. I think that's the next task for NASA |
| 14:11.19 | claymore | had some links for some pretty wild Computer mods here somewhere.... |
| 14:11.34 | clock_ | I made a water cooling with a radiator from car |
| 14:11.47 | clock_ | sometimes the CPU core temperature was less than room temperature |
| 14:12.03 | claymore | well thats dangerous now isn't it clock_ :P |
| 14:12.38 | clock_ | I don't see a reason why a radiator from car should be dangerous |
| 14:13.53 | claymore | dropping the cpu temperature below room temp will make any moisture present start to condense ON the CPU first if the relative humidity reaches a certain point. |
| 14:14.06 | clock_ | if BRL-CAD can calculate weight, can it also calculate inductance? |
| 14:14.37 | clock_ | well it was only few degress. Caused by the fact the radiator was under the window and the window was open. THe colder air was flowing at the radiator. |
| 14:14.38 | claymore | clock_: You'd have to script it, but yeah, it should |
| 14:14.56 | clock_ | I wonder if it need finite element method. |
| 14:16.04 | claymore | clock_: I have a simple design using a two stage water cooled system connected via peltier coolers to 'simulate' a refrigeration cycle in a computer... haven't put it to practice though. |
| 14:16.43 | claymore | Inefficiant as anything, but I bet it would get that cpu pretty damned cold :) |
| 14:16.51 | claymore | is having a horrid spelling day. |
| 14:17.08 | archivist | claymore, look at the Elecrolux cycle |
| 14:17.19 | clock_ | I thought about refrigerating my LED with liquid nirogen |
| 14:17.28 | clock_ | It should increase the light efficiency tremendously. |
| 14:19.32 | alex_joni | for how long? |
| 14:19.41 | claymore | archivist: Right, standard Absorption-cycle refers. There are many of them installed at American University in Washington DC. Spent many a days working on those horrid things... |
| 14:20.52 | claymore | the point of my using peltier coolers was to remove any dangerous gasses from my cooling cycle... r114, amonia, etc. |
| 14:21.10 | clock_ | new fridges have butan gas |
| 14:21.27 | clock_ | it's only flammable |
| 14:21.36 | clock_ | Maybe it's even put into cigarette lighter |
| 14:23.20 | claymore | clock_: having a flammable gas inside of a PC wont sit well with most users :) |
| 14:23.55 | clock_ | overclockers can literally get their CPU on fire |
| 14:24.13 | alex_joni | they did that even before (without gas) |
| 14:24.34 | claymore | only because they couldn't remove the heat fast enough :) |
| 14:24.38 | clock_ | there are youtube videos showing people putting very large gas tanks into fire and then shooting them with a gun |
| 14:24.42 | clock_ | a lot of fun to watch |
| 14:25.12 | archivist | claymore, yup, use power supply waste heat to cool the cpu |
| 14:25.36 | claymore | clock_: thats called Darwinism: http://www.darwinawards.com/ |
| 14:25.39 | clock_ | if i understand it correctly absorption cooler runs off heat |
| 14:25.53 | archivist | clock_, yes |
| 14:26.15 | clock_ | Indeed, once the gas tank went airborne and flew horizntally, rotating wildly and spewing flames |
| 14:26.17 | claymore | and has amonia in it ;) amonia + proximity to electronics = large potential for badness |
| 14:26.26 | alex_joni | claymore: unfortunately, they don't usually qualify for darwin awards :/ |
| 14:28.10 | *** join/#brlcad d_rossberg (n=rossberg@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 14:31.51 | brlcad | marko1: that's pretty awesome, love the use |
| 14:33.44 | brlcad | d_rossberg: I'll reply to the list, but I think you're spot on for the characterization |
| 14:34.51 | brlcad | the service is higher-level, network-centric, command and action focused .. and intentionally built on top of existing facilities |
| 14:35.46 | brlcad | whereas the geometry engine is much lower-level with what you've been working on being an OO layer that sits right on top of the core functionality |
| 14:36.27 | d_rossberg | i think the point is that the Geometry Engine wants to preserve the command line interface (?) |
| 14:36.43 | brlcad | there is presently some design overlap that has to be resolved with regards to the geometry engine itself, but I do see that as a distinct "product" as well as the geometry service being another different "product" |
| 14:36.55 | claymore | d_rossberg: not really. |
| 14:37.37 | claymore | d_rossberg: but, in order to bring functionality online as quickly as possible, we are going to use libged initially since a lot of the work was done there. |
| 14:37.41 | brlcad | it might provide hooks to functionality that's in LIBGED but I don't think that's the goal in the least .. if it does that, it's probably/mostly just because that code for whatever action is only/already available there |
| 14:37.54 | claymore | d_rossberg: Just sent a reply to your email |
| 14:43.20 | d_rossberg | my consideration was: if you have a GUI on top of the Geometry Engine and this GUI has a command line interface it would be a design consideration to use libged via the Geomatry Engine |
| 14:43.58 | brlcad | d_rossberg: are you saying that's a bad thing or a good thing? :) |
| 14:44.27 | d_rossberg | in this case it would be a good thing |
| 14:45.00 | d_rossberg | and what i want to say is: the design depends on the application |
| 14:45.11 | claymore | d_rossberg: GUI developement will be independant of the GS and GE development. GUI will also be abstract and will conform to a Communcations API. |
| 14:45.32 | d_rossberg | if i don't know the application i can not assess the design |
| 14:46.05 | claymore | the GS will also Conform to this Communications API and thus a GUI and a GS will be able to communicate abstract of how the GS internals are doing their work. |
| 14:47.41 | claymore | libged was designed the way it was in order to greatly organize how the current BRL-CAD accesses the libraries. libged development has/had nothing to do with iBME,GS oe GE... we are just going to use it for the time being :) |
| 14:48.21 | brlcad | rather, how *MGED* accesses the libraries, and to make it a lot easier to other/new guis to get at that same editing functionality |
| 14:49.24 | claymore | brlcad: good catch;) Thanks. Bouncing between computers is taking its toll on me lol. |
| 14:49.58 | d_rossberg | claymore: i recommend to develop GE, GS and the GUI together (similar to libged which was developed with mged and TCL as brlcad said) |
| 14:50.14 | brlcad | claymore: actually we're going to have a little bit of crosstalk perhaps but LIBGED does have quite a bit to do with the GE (not so much the design, though, as the intent) .. all of this refactoring is moving us towards a new/better GUI |
| 14:50.47 | brlcad | d_rossberg: what do you mean by develop them together? |
| 14:51.21 | brlcad | I know that I at least have a strong preference for each of those to act as stand-alone products so that the interfaces and responsibilities between them are well-defined |
| 14:51.45 | claymore | brlcad: On board with that. However, if we are going to code an OO layer ontop of libged in order to remove the command line like accessability... wouldn't just making an OO layer that access the underlying libs directly (instead of going through libged) be faster? |
| 14:52.21 | brlcad | the GE really compares to that of the likes of ACIS, Granite, OpenCASCADE, etc as being an OO engine on top of our geometry |
| 14:52.51 | brlcad | the GS sits on top of that providing access controls and acts as a network service |
| 14:53.08 | brlcad | a GUI can be tied directly to GE or to the GS then, with different implications and tradeoffs |
| 14:53.24 | brlcad | claymore: absolutely |
| 14:54.57 | claymore | brlcad and d_rossberg : I will get more pictures and documentation up on the wiki. Sometimes text just doesn't make for easy explainations :) |
| 14:55.05 | brlcad | though the first half of what you said gives me pause -- "in order to remove the command line like accessability" .. the GE could retain a "run this command" api call that passes through to LIBGED even if it were otherwise decoupled from it |
| 14:56.03 | d_rossberg | brlcad: i don't think it is a good idea to develop the interface and see if a gui can be build on this afterwards |
| 14:56.09 | brlcad | sure, though sometimes pictures and documentation just add extra questions and confusion too and discussion will still have to occur ;) |
| 14:56.29 | brlcad | d_rossberg: they're occurring concurrently |
| 14:57.45 | brlcad | and at worse - LIBGED is exactly what MGED presently uses so if the GE uses it, it really shouldn't be any worse off than where MGED presently is yet provides all of the existing functionality |
| 14:57.46 | claymore | brlcad: Okay, I am defining 'command line like' accessability as each function in libged takes the standard 'int argc, const char *argv[]' which would be a major speed hit to do all that string parsing... |
| 14:58.11 | clock_ | what is good on CSG is that it mimics the tooling process |
| 14:58.20 | clock_ | drilling is ubtraction on a cylinder |
| 14:58.28 | clock_ | cylindrical grinding is an AND with a cylinder |
| 14:58.37 | clock_ | flat grinding is an AND with a halfspace or cube |
| 14:58.57 | clock_ | and the basic shapes come from rolled stock foundry |
| 14:59.16 | brlcad | it depends where/how to characterize that it's a major speed hit -- it's what mged does now and it's frankly a non-issue as the time is mostly spent processing geometry, not in strings |
| 14:59.21 | d_rossberg | claymore: you should describe some applications in the wiki, the effort is much to high to write only a GUI |
| 14:59.51 | claymore | and if we write a OO layer ontop of libged then we could easily find ourselves taking a cmdline input into GE, parsing it into an object, applying it to the OO layer on libged, converting backinto a string, passing it to libged which then has to pasrse it again. |
| 15:00.04 | claymore | thats my concern... sorry if I worded it poorly :) |
| 15:00.23 | claymore | d_rossberg: 'some applications'.... of what? |
| 15:00.34 | brlcad | d_rossberg: the first/main application I'd planned all along is a new modeling GUI that can eventually replace mged -- starting out with visualization capabilities for starters, then adding searching capabilities, then adding editing capabilities |
| 15:01.37 | brlcad | claymore: well yeah, that could potentially suck -- but that's just a bad way to go about it regardless |
| 15:01.38 | d_rossberg | claymore: GE and GS |
| 15:02.44 | brlcad | d_rossberg: your viewer is an ideal application use |
| 15:03.00 | claymore | d_rossberg: simply put GE is the library that wraps up all of brlcad's current capability and provides a single interface to all the functionality. |
| 15:03.04 | brlcad | sitting on top of the GE or the GS (but not using any of GED) |
| 15:03.46 | claymore | d_rossberg: GS is an actual executable that incorporates the GE, but adds Session managing, network capabilities, access controls, etc. |
| 15:03.49 | brlcad | (save for maybe as temporary back-end implementation detail in GE for the short-term) |
| 15:04.26 | brlcad | d_rossberg: what would you like to see different? |
| 15:04.37 | brlcad | or is this all not making sense yet :) |
| 15:04.57 | claymore | d_rossberg: and a GUI is a standalone application that accessess a GS and provides a means for user input, visualization, editing, etc. |
| 15:05.53 | brlcad | notes that the overall design of having these "three kings" working together hasn't really changed in the 7 years it's been under planning .. just new names here and there :) |
| 15:06.49 | claymore | voted for Project Hamburgler, but was shot down :( |
| 15:06.58 | brlcad | just has a lot more detail now that bob has kicked off libged, mafm has the start of a prototype, and claymore has dived head first into the gs and documenting the whole thing up :) |
| 15:07.20 | d_rossberg | i don't want to change it, i want to understand it |
| 15:07.44 | brlcad | i want you to understand it too (and love it!) :) |
| 15:07.51 | d_rossberg | e.g.: why is the gui on top of GS and not on top of GE? |
| 15:08.48 | brlcad | a gui can be developed on top of either, but that was my doing a long time ago as a means to strongly decouple the interface from the control |
| 15:09.06 | claymore | d_rossberg: to answer that e.g., the GE doesn't have any network capability, so if someone build a gui ontop of JUST the GE (which they could) then their final application wouldn't automatically have interconnectability to other GS's |
| 15:09.08 | brlcad | specific to the new modeler interface too as the primary customer |
| 15:10.25 | claymore | d_rossberg: The GUI is really ment to be a 'smart terminal' or 'thin client' that communicates with the GS (and thus the GE). The GS and GE are doing all the work and informing the GUI of the results. |
| 15:11.29 | brlcad | having it be network-centric also means that it can be compiled to use local unix sockets and shared memory for high performance communication if needed, but then allows much higher-level collaboration for teams of modelers (or even a single modeler to our own centralized public repository that all public clients will have access to ala wikipedia) |
| 15:11.49 | claymore | d_rossberg: The major difference between other apps and this design is that the communication between GUI and GS is abstracted to a point where the communcation can occur over various mediums. ( I personally see network sockets being the most prevalent) |
| 15:12.43 | claymore | d_rossberg: this allows a GS to be running on a massive multicpu machine off in 'ServerLand' while the gui runs on a standard PC on your desk. |
| 15:12.47 | brlcad | probably network sockets and unix sockets only, I can't see us really using anything else |
| 15:13.16 | claymore | d_rossberg: or they can be running on the same machine if you want. Its flexible that way. |
| 15:13.33 | claymore | brlcad: True, but its nice to have extensibility :) |
| 15:14.21 | brlcad | unless it makes the infrastructure more complicated and is more to maintain :) |
| 15:14.35 | brlcad | tbd |
| 15:15.09 | brlcad | fyi, I reworded a fair bit on the iBME page |
| 15:15.17 | brlcad | s/fair/minor/ |
| 15:15.32 | claymore | brlcad: Pffft. We will provide the two basic portals of UnixSockets and NetSockets. If someone else wants to extend in to other mediums... thats there bag not ours :) |
| 15:15.34 | brlcad | you can subscribe to rss events if you want to see changes of others as they occur too |
| 15:15.48 | claymore | how DARE you touch the public wiki! |
| 15:16.10 | d_rossberg | ok, the intended application is a client-server-infrastructure where the computations are done on a multi CPU server and the users sits in front of his desktop PC with a thin client program |
| 15:16.53 | claymore | d_rossberg: that is true, but the other intent is to have both client and server able to run on the same machine. |
| 15:16.59 | brlcad | d_rossberg: also where the computations are done locally on a multi CPU workstation and the users sits in front of his desktop PC with his thin client talking to his own backend |
| 15:17.04 | archivist | not that thin please /me wants nice pics not wireframes |
| 15:17.19 | brlcad | archivist: nah, there will be shaded displays |
| 15:17.26 | brlcad | that's part of the BREP/NURBS effort |
| 15:19.00 | brlcad | d_rossberg: if you want some high-level vision-speak -- I documented how much of this ties together for the project as a whole at: http://brlcad.org/BRL-CAD_Priorities.png |
| 15:19.17 | claymore | brlcad: Your Engrish-foo is more than mine, plus I am typing really fast... so fixing up my dumb dumb errors is greatly appriciated! |
| 15:19.45 | brlcad | it's all very high-level and hand-wavy, but it hopefully describes the four main areas and their intent |
| 15:20.18 | brlcad | PDF of the same document, though the font renders like crap if you don't have it: http://brlcad.org/BRL-CAD_Priorities.pdf |
| 15:21.06 | claymore | is impressed with brlcad's graphic design! |
| 15:21.08 | brlcad | and you'll just have to "deal" with the layout.. if you can't figure it out, it's reader failure! ;) |
| 15:21.09 | claymore | purty |
| 16:08.57 | brlcad | thinks "Resource" should probably be "Object" or "DatabaseObject" to not introduce new terms |
| 16:09.24 | brlcad | resource also implies limited availability |
| 16:09.27 | brlcad | which they're not |
| 16:10.13 | brlcad | my hard drive is a resource, my CPU is a resource.. |
| 16:10.29 | claymore | I am strongly opposed to 'object' since that would really conuse people during OO design discussions. DBObject is agreeable. |
| 16:10.43 | claymore | conuse == confuse |
| 16:12.01 | claymore | 'resource' came from having to abstract away from the OS Filesystem and a BrlCad DB Filesystem... needed a way to describe combs, regions, solids AND directories and .g files.... |
| 16:12.21 | claymore | now thats fixed, DBObject is probably better ;) |
| 16:12.50 | brlcad | I know it's a bikeshed issue, but I'd also really think we should avoid shortening names for clarity as that's often what makes the API inpenetrable for new developers trying to grok the terminology |
| 16:13.27 | brlcad | we should all be using tab-completion editors anyways where the typing aspect is moot :) |
| 16:13.58 | brlcad | also jives with what daniel has going, http://brlcad.org/wiki/BRL-CAD%27s_core_C%2B%2B_interface |
| 16:14.09 | claymore | heh, Enterprise Architect doesn't have Tab-completion :( |
| 16:14.20 | claymore | good thing I am just about done with it. |
| 16:14.25 | brlcad | you only type it once there :) |
| 16:14.49 | CIA-62 | BRL-CAD: 03davidloman * r33244 10/brlcad/trunk/: IDE specific svn:ignore .project and .cproject |
| 16:14.50 | brlcad | you think you're done |
| 16:15.00 | brlcad | waterfall design rarely ever works .. :) |
| 16:15.32 | brlcad | things will get renamed a LOT once it's in SVN if it's at all successful and there is more than one deve poking on it |
| 16:15.42 | claymore | oh no... i'm f-ing done with it alright! |
| 16:15.47 | brlcad | hehe |
| 16:15.48 | claymore | tosses it out the window. |
| 16:16.08 | brlcad | prepares to go close on that thing he bought |
| 16:16.21 | claymore | congrats again! |
| 16:16.32 | claymore | whens the move in party? >8-) |
| 16:16.54 | brlcad | moving in tonight :) |
| 16:17.04 | brlcad | housewarming party tbd after furniture is in place |
| 16:17.35 | CIA-62 | BRL-CAD: 03d_rossberg * r33245 10/rt^3/trunk/ (4 files in 2 dirs): copying or assigning an object now means to lose the direct connection to the database because this connection can be invalid when the copy will be used |
| 16:18.13 | brlcad | d_rossberg: interesting -- does that turn it into an in-mem or something? |
| 16:18.20 | claymore | Well, the moving heavy stuff slave labor offer is still in place if you need it. |
| 16:18.28 | brlcad | hugs CIA-62 |
| 16:18.29 | CIA-62 | hugs brlcad |
| 16:19.45 | brlcad | claymore: cool -- I frankly don't know if I'll need it or how long it'll all take; if you're interested, I'll be meeting jason up at my storage units around 5pm today over in abingdon |
| 16:20.05 | d_rossberg | yes, the object (ant its derived classes) should be able to store all the values in the object |
| 16:20.22 | d_rossberg | look at m_name in Object for example |
| 16:20.27 | brlcad | d_rossberg: that's a damn creative use of the inmems .. neat :) |
| 16:20.44 | claymore | brlcad: I'll have to check with the better half to see when Date night starts :) |
| 16:20.54 | brlcad | claymore: okay, cool |
| 16:21.08 | d_rossberg | m_name will only be touched if there is no connection to a database |
| 16:21.52 | brlcad | claymore: see, he used Object :P |
| 16:21.56 | brlcad | grins |
| 16:22.57 | brlcad | claymore: oh also if you do come, there's a follow-up invite (my treat) for you and the Mrs to dinner downtown tomorrow, late lunch probably around 2pm at the brazillian place (my treat) |
| 16:23.41 | brlcad | calling in the reservation later today as soon as I know how many heads |
| 16:24.05 | brlcad | counts approx 7 + 2 kids presently |
| 16:24.37 | marko1 | brlcad: when I output with g-stl to an .STL file, how to I increase the resolution? I'm seeing large facets on my curves |
| 16:24.50 | brlcad | marko1: there are tolerances that adjust that |
| 16:25.05 | brlcad | [-a abs_tess_tol] [-r rel_tess_tol] [-n norm_tess_tol] [-D dist_calc_tol] |
| 16:25.10 | brlcad | careful there .. |
| 16:25.47 | brlcad | setting the wrong value there can very easily a) fill up your hard drive b) make you run out of memory c) cause tessellation to fail due to unresolvable degeneracies |
| 16:25.58 | marko1 | oh boy |
| 16:26.08 | brlcad | the normal tolerance controls curvature |
| 16:26.17 | claymore | brlcad: Tomarrow is a no-go for me. Gotta church function all day plus the Mother-in-law is up for the weekend. Just found out that she is coming up via my jeep, aka, I have to go to DC to get her. lol. Looks like I can't help you AND date night is off. |
| 16:26.19 | brlcad | abs is absolute computation tolerance |
| 16:26.24 | brlcad | (the more dangerous one) |
| 16:26.24 | claymore | pouts. |
| 16:26.32 | marko1 | brlcad: this is the shape |
| 16:26.33 | marko1 | http://prometheusfusionperfection.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/test3g.png |
| 16:26.36 | marko1 | any suggetsions |
| 16:26.40 | marko1 | for starting params |
| 16:27.00 | brlcad | claymore: ah, shame .. the brazillian place is awesome :) |
| 16:27.05 | marko1 | will be 500 mm across |
| 16:27.42 | brlcad | marko1: just for run, run: rtedge -s1024 |
| 16:27.53 | brlcad | s/run,/fun,/ |
| 16:28.21 | marko1 | k |
| 16:28.26 | claymore | brlcad: sounds it. especially if the waitresses are... oh wait. stop that train of thought ;) |
| 16:28.34 | marko1 | I see the man page |
| 16:28.35 | brlcad | marko1: as for starting params, hell .. I'd just try something and see how bad/good it is, then go up/down as needed :) |
| 16:29.03 | brlcad | a and b aren't likely .. just a scare tactic to make you be aware that you have raw control on the tolerances :) |
| 16:29.22 | brlcad | c is the most likely if you go too coarse or fine |
| 16:30.53 | marko1 | brlcad: are those options applied against the g-stl command? |
| 16:31.12 | brlcad | which ? |
| 16:31.26 | brlcad | the -a -r -n -D ? yes |
| 16:31.35 | brlcad | the rtedge thing was not |
| 16:31.43 | marko1 | I don't see rtedge in the docs |
| 16:32.14 | brlcad | did you run it? |
| 16:32.36 | brlcad | promises it won't do anything bad |
| 16:33.41 | marko1 | brlcad: of cool! |
| 16:34.10 | marko1 | brlcad: it made an ouline |
| 16:34.32 | brlcad | :) |
| 16:34.57 | marko1 | brlcad: so it's an outline, what is this? |
| 16:35.05 | brlcad | there are ways of layering the hidden-line rendering with the rt rendering too -- rtwizard tries to make it easier |
| 16:35.10 | brlcad | just a different visualization |
| 16:35.17 | brlcad | rtedge generates hidden line renderings |
| 16:36.06 | marko1 | brlcad: how is this useful for tuning my STL output? |
| 16:36.26 | brlcad | marko1: not in the least bit useful for that -- just thought you might like to see it :) |
| 16:37.00 | brlcad | discovering capabilities on your own or through docs can be daunting |
| 16:37.05 | marko1 | brlcad: it is cool! |
| 16:37.16 | marko1 | brlcad: perfect for a t-shirt |
| 16:37.51 | brlcad | as for the tolerances, I'd say try -n 1 and see what it does .. if it's too coarse or doesn't seem to change, try 0.1, then 0.01, then 0.001 etc .. or go in the opposite direction |
| 16:38.55 | marko1 | brlcad: ok, I'll try that... |
| 16:39.08 | brlcad | iirc, the default absolute and distance tolerance is 0.005 |
| 16:39.37 | brlcad | since your model is pretty uniform, you can probably savely get away with changing just the abs tolerance to 0.0001 or something similar |
| 16:40.09 | brlcad | it'll be a little trial-and-error but you'll see the number of polygons go up/down as you tweak values |
| 16:40.21 | brlcad | gives you a gauge for how detailed to go |
| 16:40.22 | marko1 | brlcad: how can I "see" the result |
| 16:40.28 | marko1 | I get stl files |
| 16:40.34 | marko1 | but I can't "see" them |
| 16:40.46 | brlcad | ah, you don't have an stl viewer? |
| 16:40.49 | marko1 | no |
| 16:40.55 | marko1 | recommendation? |
| 16:40.57 | brlcad | run stl-g |
| 16:40.59 | brlcad | :) |
| 16:42.10 | brlcad | stl-g to a new file, run rt on the command line (outside of mged) to view the object (it should be named all or something similar, mged -c newstl.g tops) |
| 16:43.04 | marko1 | k |
| 16:43.18 | marko1 | brlcad: this is fantastic help BTW, |
| 16:48.02 | claymore | likes snow :) |
| 16:52.31 | claymore | is OTL. |
| 16:54.54 | brlcad | marko1: glad to be of assistance, cool project |
| 16:56.12 | brlcad | mind if I share your project to the mailing list? |
| 17:05.42 | marko1 | brlcad: go for it |
| 17:18.56 | marko1 | whoa, that totally locked up my computer |
| 17:25.38 | *** join/#brlcad marko1 (n=mark@cpe-74-72-195-92.nyc.res.rr.com) |
| 17:25.44 | marko1 | damn |
| 17:25.50 | marko1 | had to hard restart |
| 17:32.23 | marko1 | brlcad:that kills my memory |
| 17:33.08 | marko1 | also seeing this |
| 17:35.26 | marko1 | WARNING: tesselation tolerance is 0.001000mm while calculational tolerance is 0.005000mm |
| 17:35.26 | marko1 | Cannot tesselate a TGC to finer tolerance than the calculational tolerance |
| 17:35.49 | marko1 | I get the meaning, how do I adjust calc tolerances |
| 17:35.56 | marko1 | is that specific to BD |
| 17:36.00 | marko1 | or rendering |
| 17:39.17 | marko1 | tol command |
| 17:59.25 | marko1 | brlcad: I'm at a loss, can't seem set the tolorance so |
| 18:00.07 | marko1 | I think is see ... |
| 18:00.58 | marko1 | got it |
| 18:02.46 | marko1 | ha |
| 18:02.46 | marko1 | do you guys use the cloud for your rendering |
| 18:10.25 | mafm | bye |
| 19:15.49 | marko1 | brlcad: is there a way to go from STIL to PNG in one step |
| 19:19.44 | marko1 | nm |
| 19:19.46 | marko1 | got it |
| 19:33.06 | marko1 | g-stl takes forever |
| 19:33.39 | OTL-claymore | sure does. :) any thing having to do with tesselation in brlcad is prone to heavy cpu use and long run times :) |
| 19:43.21 | marko1 | can that be optomised for gpu |
| 19:43.54 | marko1 | can it be parallelized easily? |
| 19:44.09 | claymore | its an area of brlcad that need a lot of work. |
| 19:45.05 | marko1 | i see |
| 19:50.23 | marko1 | has anyone setup a EC2 render farm? |
| 20:03.15 | claymore | not I |
| 20:05.11 | CIA-62 | BRL-CAD: 03davidloman * r33246 10/rt^3/trunk/src/iBME/docs/ (4 files): Updated Architecture to contain more sensible names. Generated new UML images. Updated wiki documentation at http://brlcad.org/wiki/IBME_Main |
| 21:50.28 | *** join/#brlcad Elrohir (n=kvirc@p5B14CD84.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 22:24.05 | *** join/#brlcad ``Erik_ (i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net) |
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| 23:19.08 | *** join/#brlcad ibot (i=ibot@rikers.org) |
| 23:19.08 | *** topic/#brlcad is BRL-CAD Open Source Solid Modeling || http://brlcad.org || http://sf.net/projects/brlcad || GSoC 2008 Highlight: new prototype gui, check it out! || Source Release 7.14.0 is now posted (20081108) |
| 23:48.23 | *** join/#brlcad ``Erik_ (i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net) |
| 23:53.32 | Ralith | I may have asked this before, but |
| 23:53.56 | Ralith | does brl-cad incorporate any sort of utility to go from valid closed mesh (e.g. BoT) to solid volume? |
| 23:56.17 | ``Erik_ | there was an experiment to attempt that, uhm, 'beset' |
| 23:59.35 | Ralith | it's buggy? |
