| 00:26.43 | Maloeran | Hey Erik, I missed your reply, where did your comic page go? :) You can say it in privmsg if the talks push the reply out of the buffer again, thanks |
| 00:31.41 | *** join/#brlcad iraytrace (n=iraytrac@cocoa.sci.utah.edu) |
| 00:32.38 | iraytrace | evening all ! |
| 00:35.30 | brlcad | Maloeran: it's up at http://bzflag.bz/~erik/comics/ |
| 00:35.40 | brlcad | iraytrace: howdy! |
| 00:35.57 | iraytrace | Howdy back! |
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| 01:41.15 | ``Erik | heh, someone needs to put a fly trap up to stick lee here |
| 01:41.46 | ``Erik | mal: math.missouristate.edu changed to euler.missouristate.edu and they didn't bother telling me until 4 days after it happened |
| 01:41.52 | ``Erik | so I've been fixing the mail handler and shit to cope |
| 01:42.07 | ``Erik | and they didn't bother with a cname cuz they're tards |
| 01:42.30 | ``Erik | but I keep the comic page in cvs, so any place with a reasonable php can take it fast... a mirror is on bz :) |
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| 03:11.33 | starseeker | iraytrace: So what's it like doing IRC on a pogo stick? ;-) |
| 03:12.07 | iraytrace | Its SoMeWhAt DiScOnCeRtInG |
| 03:25.54 | starseeker | :-) |
| 03:26.05 | starseeker | Is your connection a bit erratic? |
| 03:48.22 | iraytrace | Sorry, preoccupied with /. |
| 03:49.29 | iraytrace | How's life on the coast? |
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| 07:01.09 | oden1 | Good day fellows. |
| 07:01.16 | illethal | pow |
| 07:01.28 | illethal | I use weechat-curses and it never keeps my nick name the way I want it. |
| 07:01.45 | Axman6 | use irssi, and you |
| 07:01.49 | Axman6 | you'll be fine |
| 07:01.56 | Axman6 | learn to type, and i'll be fine |
| 07:02.00 | illethal | Irssi is similar, ya? |
| 07:02.03 | illethal | Hahaha |
| 07:02.09 | Axman6 | that is, i should learn to type, not you :P |
| 07:02.17 | illethal | I should learn also. |
| 07:02.25 | illethal | I heard hooked on phonics is pretty good. |
| 07:02.48 | Axman6 | never used weechat, but it's basically considered the best cli irc client (and to some, the best irc client, cli or otherwise ;) |
| 07:03.02 | illethal | I'd have to agree. |
| 07:03.07 | CIA-32 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r30457 10/brlcad/trunk/include/ (cmd.h dg.h): this will very-likely re-break the build on Windows, but bio.h is a private header and cannot be included in any public headers. (e.g. it shouldn't ever be installed.) |
| 07:03.16 | illethal | I don't know all the commands but it smokes the old mIRC I used to use on windows. |
| 07:04.14 | brlcad | shouldn't that be "i herd hokt on fonics iz prity gud" |
| 07:04.30 | illethal | ya sumtin lik dat |
| 07:06.54 | starseeker | brlcad: What's the alternative to including bio.h? |
| 07:07.43 | brlcad | not including it? :) |
| 07:08.40 | brlcad | it belongs in the app code, not the public headers -- it's just included elsewhere |
| 07:09.03 | brlcad | it's also really just a simple wrapper around a more complex set of #include logic |
| 07:09.34 | illethal | Man brlcad you're so leet. |
| 07:09.37 | brlcad | logic that provide standard and native I/O decls |
| 07:13.02 | CIA-32 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r30458 10/brlcad/trunk/include/raytrace.h: why are these three ifree functions needed? if they're special, they should probably be documented with a comment. |
| 07:14.09 | CIA-32 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r30459 10/brlcad/trunk/include/raytrace.h: give it a name 'just in case' someone really does need these so they can be given a cppflag that will make it all better |
| 07:16.22 | illethal | Axman6: in irssi, what is the command to join another channel, and still remain in the one you are currently in? |
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| 07:20.51 | CIA-32 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r30460 10/brlcad/trunk/regress/flawfinder.sh: add a regression test for bio.h to make sure nobody adds it to a public header down the road. |
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| 07:37.31 | illethal | Hello president Kennedy. |
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| 07:47.54 | brlcad | yay for for file in `find . -type f \( -name \*.c -o -name \*.cpp -o -name \*.cxx -o -name \*.h -o -name \*.y -o -name \*.l \) -not -regex '.*src/other.*' -not -regex '.*~' -not -regex '.*\.log' -not -regex '.*Makefile.*' -not -regex '.*cache.*' -not -regex '.*\.svn.*' -exec grep -n -I -e '#[[:space:]]*include' {} /dev/null \; | grep "\"common.h\"" | sed 's/:.*//g'` ; do if test -f "`echo $file | sed 's/\.c$/\.l/g'`" ; then continue ; fi ; grep '#[[:space:]]*in |
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| 08:27.52 | poolio | brlcad: Is that you entry in the obfuscated bash contest? |
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| 08:41.57 | brlcad | heh, no way |
| 08:42.06 | brlcad | that's pretty straightforward (to me at least) :) |
| 08:42.21 | brlcad | half of it is just the find pattern |
| 08:42.31 | poolio | It's straightforward if you try to figure it out, but at 4am and halfway through a paper, it's gibberish. |
| 08:42.40 | brlcad | i've written much much longer :) |
| 08:43.10 | brlcad | that one just does a neat thing, finds all non-lexer files that don't include common as the first file |
| 08:44.09 | poolio | I always mess up quotes and back quotes and double quotes |
| 08:44.14 | poolio | And sometimes wish I had another type of quote to use |
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| 09:33.16 | brlcad | :) |
| 09:33.54 | brlcad | d_rossberg: fyi, I'm also working/verifying the windows build |
| 09:34.17 | brlcad | last stages of trying to make sure everything is stable and working (particularly windows) for this 7.12.0 release |
| 09:34.51 | brlcad | hopefully the end of this week/weekend if there aren't any problems -- if you find anything, please let me know or mail the dev list |
| 09:36.56 | CIA-32 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r30461 10/brlcad/trunk/regress/flawfinder.sh: |
| 09:36.56 | CIA-32 | BRL-CAD: add another coding check for the common.h inclusion ordering. this makes sure |
| 09:36.56 | CIA-32 | BRL-CAD: common.h always comes first if/when listed in a file. alas the script isn't |
| 09:36.56 | CIA-32 | BRL-CAD: tweaked to work right if there are spaces in the path name, but then there are |
| 09:36.56 | CIA-32 | BRL-CAD: probably other scripts like that in regress too |
| 09:41.58 | CIA-32 | BRL-CAD: 03d_rossberg * r30462 10/brlcad/trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): some additional bio.h includes to make the Windows build work again |
| 09:42.48 | d_rossberg | brlcad: now my windows-dll build works again |
| 09:57.06 | CIA-32 | BRL-CAD: 03d_rossberg * r30463 10/brlcad/trunk/src/other/openNURBS/Makefile.am: opennurbs_zlib.h needs to be installed because of the z_stream type |
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| 14:22.02 | brlcad | d_rossberg: okay |
| 14:45.44 | ``Erik | hukt on fonix heheheh |
| 14:48.21 | yukonbob | archivist: oxford |
| 14:49.12 | archivist | Im about 70 miles north near Derby and Burton |
| 14:53.29 | brlcad | howdybob |
| 14:53.48 | yukonbob | hey -- what's shaking |
| 14:54.04 | yukonbob | (/me was waving North, to archivist) :) |
| 14:54.17 | yukonbob | :) |
| 14:55.54 | archivist | I like Blackwells bookshop in Oxford |
| 15:10.16 | yukonbob | brlcad: heh |
| 15:15.00 | CIA-32 | BRL-CAD: 03erikgreenwald * r30464 10/brlcad/trunk/Makefile.am: include/conf/DATE is in builddir, not srcdir |
| 15:15.43 | brlcad | gah, then that's version-specific |
| 15:16.07 | brlcad | I traced down one config and during distcheck, it was stashing DATE into srcdir as a BUILT_SOURCES |
| 15:16.34 | brlcad | that or something else is missing |
| 15:16.43 | brlcad | maybe DESTDIR |
| 15:27.17 | ``Erik | O.o |
| 15:27.17 | ``Erik | hrm |
| 15:27.37 | ``Erik | using the rhel automake, it was bitching about not finding that file |
| 15:29.48 | Maloeran | Thanks brlcad and ``Erik for the update on the comics page :) |
| 15:30.21 | ``Erik | threre're two copies now, in case one craps out... one at euler.missouristate.edu and one at bz.bzflag.bz |
| 15:34.31 | CIA-32 | BRL-CAD: 03erikgreenwald * r30465 10/brlcad/trunk/src/ (librt/Makefile.am other/libpng/Makefile.am): update dependancy info |
| 15:34.54 | clock_ | ``Erik: would it help to make the cutting primitive from more smaller parts? |
| 15:35.13 | ``Erik | clock: probably |
| 15:36.02 | ``Erik | making the cut lower in the heirarchy with smaller cutters would be useful |
| 15:36.05 | ``Erik | i'd imagine |
| 15:36.24 | ``Erik | or just suck it up and accept the slow raytrace time *shrug* :) |
| 15:36.27 | clock_ | I don't want the cut low in the hierarchy |
| 15:36.40 | clock_ | but the raytrace takes like a week |
| 15:37.00 | ``Erik | yeah? and? :D |
| 15:37.04 | clock_ | Even when I bought a modern 2-CPU machine just for the purpose of the slow BRL-CAD renderingf |
| 15:37.52 | clock_ | would it help if the cut would still be at the toplevel, but I wouldn't cut with one big cube, but with a union of a lot of small cubes? |
| 15:39.14 | ``Erik | y'know, thinking about it now, I don't think so |
| 15:39.35 | clock_ | so to speed up it must be down in the hierarchy? |
| 15:39.54 | ``Erik | the bounding box and bounding sphere grow as you walk up the heirarchy, and the thing that's killing you is bad space partitioning, I think |
| 15:40.09 | ``Erik | brlcad knows the guts of the space partitioning crap far better than I do |
| 15:40.12 | clock_ | What is exctly space partitioning? An octree? |
| 15:40.18 | ``Erik | I'm kinda guessing based on symptoms |
| 15:40.29 | ``Erik | um, I think it's more of a KD-tree |
| 15:40.38 | ``Erik | or BSP |
| 15:40.45 | clock_ | What function does it do in BRL-CAD? |
| 15:40.53 | ``Erik | space partitioning? |
| 15:41.24 | ``Erik | it's all about culling O.o |
| 15:41.26 | clock_ | SO basically you have a function which you give a point and it returns you all objects that might intersect that point? |
| 15:42.07 | ``Erik | a ray (or perhaps a line), and all possibly intersecting geometry on that line/ray |
| 15:42.48 | clock_ | Well my case should slow down exactly twice |
| 15:42.57 | clock_ | and not 210x |
| 15:43.24 | ``Erik | noooo, in your case, it should slow down up to, um, I think 10kx? |
| 15:43.37 | clock_ | why? |
| 15:43.41 | ``Erik | I lost your .g file |
| 15:43.48 | ``Erik | your 'head' object is complex |
| 15:44.12 | ``Erik | the possibly slowdown is in the neighborhood of the number of primitives in head |
| 15:44.26 | ``Erik | possible |
| 15:44.38 | clock_ | Can adding one cube increase the complexity 10,000 times? |
| 15:44.42 | ``Erik | maybe nlg2n, I d'no the guts of the code |
| 15:45.17 | clock_ | The rt prints "20,xxx primitives" |
| 15:45.20 | clock_ | 20 thousand something |
| 15:45.24 | ``Erik | well, if I have a million sphers in a row and I shoot it from the side, it'll be very fast, because I only ever have to test one sphere per ray |
| 15:45.30 | clock_ | is it the number of primitives I have in the scene? |
| 15:45.43 | clock_ | Or does it break down the primitives further into individual intersecting areas? |
| 15:45.46 | ``Erik | but if I cut all of them in half with one huge box, every ray requires 1m+1 computations |
| 15:46.01 | clock_ | Why? |
| 15:46.08 | clock_ | I would think it requires 2 computation |
| 15:46.11 | ``Erik | if I had 1m sphers and 1m corrosponding boxes, each one cutting a signle sphere, then each ray would take 2 |
| 15:46.18 | clock_ | Once it intersects the bounding box of one sphere |
| 15:46.22 | clock_ | second times the huge box |
| 15:47.04 | ``Erik | ... in the general case, you cannot know what the total impact of that single cutter is |
| 15:47.12 | clock_ | The partitioning should return only those primitives whose bounding boxes are intersected by the ray |
| 15:47.13 | ``Erik | so you have to evaluate everything in the tree |
| 15:47.26 | clock_ | So adding one primitive adds maximum one more hit per ray |
| 15:47.51 | clock_ | Sounds like the algorithm has a bug |
| 15:47.57 | clock_ | which is triggered by my scene |
| 15:48.13 | ``Erik | um, the algorithm is fine... I get what you're thinking SHOULD happen |
| 15:48.21 | ``Erik | but there's no way to DO it computationally |
| 15:48.24 | clock_ | I don't get it |
| 15:48.29 | ``Erik | that's where the human blows the machine away |
| 15:49.26 | clock_ | So you basically do some kind of heuristics and my case is a poison case for that heuristic? |
| 15:49.37 | ``Erik | ok, i have a million spheres... and I want to cut them in half... but instead of just being discrete spheres in a row, they're now complex... they overlap, some are unions, some are intersections, some are subtractions, and multilayered |
| 15:49.40 | ``Erik | what do you do? |
| 15:49.50 | clock_ | shoot a ray |
| 15:49.56 | ``Erik | answer? no way to know. Have to bump the bounding volume and weave at the end. |
| 15:50.16 | clock_ | ask the partitioner which spheres bounding boxes intersect my ray |
| 15:50.19 | ``Erik | actually, there IS a way to know, but it'd take a century to figure out before you could even fire a ray |
| 15:50.24 | clock_ | intersect only with those returned from the partitioner |
| 15:50.26 | clock_ | weave the logics |
| 15:50.41 | ``Erik | but you don't know which spheres bb's MATTER |
| 15:50.52 | ``Erik | you can't until after you intersect them all |
| 15:51.10 | ``Erik | after you weave them, in fact |
| 15:51.16 | clock_ | that's without the partitioner |
| 15:51.26 | clock_ | the idea of the partitioner is to cull this before you have to fire rays |
| 15:51.30 | ``Erik | yeah... |
| 15:51.34 | ``Erik | it culls what it can |
| 15:51.41 | clock_ | and btw, intersecting with a cube is not much work |
| 15:52.22 | ``Erik | except it's not "a cube", it's "arbitrary geometry" |
| 15:52.44 | clock_ | if it's bounding box, then it's a box |
| 15:52.56 | clock_ | if it were a bounding elephant, then it would be in a shape of an elephant. |
| 15:53.23 | ``Erik | I assert that its' a lot more complex than you think. Please prove me wrong and provide a patch. :) |
| 15:54.26 | clock_ | Does the documentation of BRL-CAD contain any tips how to avoid running into excessive rendering time? |
| 15:54.39 | clock_ | I mean the official user documentation. |
| 15:54.44 | ``Erik | <-- doesn't know |
| 15:54.46 | clock_ | Not some comments in the code. |
| 15:55.34 | clock_ | I could try to isolate the pathological case |
| 15:55.49 | clock_ | I am trying to use BRL-CAD as a user and I fail. |
| 15:56.07 | ``Erik | we already know the pathological case... and that there's no quick fix for it |
| 15:56.10 | clock_ | The performance is close to unusable |
| 15:56.21 | clock_ | Btw if I display my model, it also takes ages to display |
| 15:56.29 | clock_ | And during the display there is no space partitioning |
| 15:56.38 | clock_ | Another example where BRL-CAD is unusably slow |
| 15:57.08 | ``Erik | *shrug* it's drawing a lot of lines, and there's no 'detail level' built in right now |
| 15:57.09 | clock_ | What is the pathological case said in general terms? |
| 15:57.36 | clock_ | I can tell you how long it should take. |
| 15:58.05 | clock_ | Let's assume all those 20,000 primitives are cylinders - most are |
| 15:58.12 | clock_ | A cylinder has 2 circles and 4 lines |
| 15:58.16 | clock_ | each circle has 8 lines |
| 15:58.18 | clock_ | that's 20 lines total |
| 15:58.24 | clock_ | 400,000 lines in total |
| 15:58.28 | ``Erik | intersection with complex geometry increases the ray trace complexity by the number of primitives involved? |
| 15:58.33 | clock_ | average length of the line is like 10 pixels |
| 15:58.36 | clock_ | that 4 million pixels |
| 15:58.47 | ``Erik | interaction, even |
| 15:58.47 | clock_ | 1 pixel is 3 bytes |
| 15:58.50 | clock_ | that's 12 megabytes |
| 15:59.27 | clock_ | let's assume the PCI runs at 100 MHz and each pixel write takes 4 ticks |
| 15:59.36 | clock_ | that's 500ms to draw it all |
| 15:59.50 | clock_ | in real it takes 30 seconds. 60 times more than it should. |
| 16:00.00 | ``Erik | for non-trivial geometry, raytracing is cpu bound, not bus bound |
| 16:00.11 | clock_ | this is *not* raytracing! |
| 16:00.18 | clock_ | This is the 'B' command - drawing the wireframe. |
| 16:00.57 | ``Erik | oh, heh, ok, each primitive is composed of many many lines, each endpoint of the line gets shoved through a matrix and then the line is rasterized |
| 16:01.12 | ``Erik | still cpu bound, drawing the pixels is quick and easy (even though fb is lametarded slow at it) |
| 16:01.26 | ``Erik | and we don't use SSE or graphics card matrix modules to accelerate it :( |
| 16:01.36 | clock_ | you don't have to |
| 16:01.42 | clock_ | My CPU is 2.2GHz |
| 16:01.53 | clock_ | What I am getting is 8-bit style ZX Spectrum drawing speed |
| 16:02.06 | ``Erik | uh not for the complexity of what you're trying to draw |
| 16:02.15 | ``Erik | remember, we have no LOD :( |
| 16:02.25 | ``Erik | so you're not drawing 400,000 pixels |
| 16:02.30 | ``Erik | you're drawing 20,000,000 lines |
| 16:03.28 | clock_ | no 400,000 lines |
| 16:03.56 | clock_ | 20,000 primitives times 20 lines per primitive |
| 16:06.24 | clock_ | In which function is a cylindren broken down into a wireframe of lines for the purpose of display? |
| 16:06.28 | clock_ | cylinder |
| 16:06.41 | clock_ | Maybe there are sinuses and cosinuses I could kick out |
| 16:13.17 | CIA-32 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r30466 10/brlcad/trunk/include/conf/PATCH: heh, skipping 3 and 4, going right to 5 |
| 16:15.25 | CIA-32 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * r30467 10/brlcad/trunk/src/libfb/ (fb_obj.c tcl.c): Include bio.h for windows compilation. |
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| 16:55.34 | CIA-32 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * r30468 10/brlcad/trunk/misc/win32-msvc8/librt/librt.vcproj: Define _RT_DECL_IFREE. This is needed by asc2g. |
| 16:56.02 | CIA-32 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * r30469 10/brlcad/trunk/misc/win32-msvc8/asc2g/asc2g.vcproj: Define _RT_DECL_IFREE. |
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| 17:35.53 | CIA-32 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * r30470 10/brlcad/trunk/src/tclscripts/lib/Dm.tcl: Need to check for the existence of the display variable. |
| 17:39.33 | CIA-32 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * r30471 10/brlcad/trunk/src/util/rtwizard.bat: Update the version. There should be a way to do this dynamically. |
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| 20:00.22 | CIA-32 | BRL-CAD: 03erikgreenwald * r30472 10/brlcad/trunk/src/other/openNURBS/Makefile.am: add deps |
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