| 00:08.10 | *** join/#brlcad qazwsx (n=qazwsx@unaffiliated/adgj) |
| 00:08.40 | qazwsx | given that I have a region/combination ... is there a way for me to tell brlcad to give me a watertight mesh? |
| 00:08.46 | qazwsx | (this I assume is probably C interface land) |
| 00:17.34 | *** join/#brlcad qazwsx_ (n=qazwsx@agp.Stanford.EDU) |
| 00:17.43 | *** part/#brlcad qazwsx_ (n=qazwsx@agp.Stanford.EDU) |
| 00:35.02 | ``Erik | hum |
| 00:49.56 | starseeker | it's doable, but will take time and patience |
| 00:52.19 | louipc | what are you doing just adding the right tags here and there? |
| 00:58.37 | Maloeran | Could anyone possibly know what could cause ftp transfer speed to slowly yet continuously drop on LAN transfers? I never figured that out |
| 00:59.09 | Maloeran | It starts at 12mb/sec, and is now at 2mb/sec after just a hour, still falling |
| 00:59.22 | starseeker | louipc: Pretty much |
| 01:00.02 | starseeker | Once I get through vol2, I'll send it to brlcad, and if he OKs it I'll post it to the list for comment |
| 01:00.17 | louipc | starseeker: ah ok. I'd try to rig up vim/emacs for hyper speed tag insertion |
| 01:00.33 | louipc | cool |
| 01:00.49 | starseeker | louipc: That's probably a good idea, but it will come after I've got a good sense of what to insert |
| 01:00.58 | louipc | yeah |
| 01:01.04 | starseeker | right now I'm working with the docbook site on one desktop and the document on another |
| 01:01.14 | starseeker | and the pdf in the third to put the text in context |
| 01:05.10 | brlcad | starseeker: there are a few docbook structures that would be well suited -- i'm not sure which is really best at this point, treating them as books, or collections of books, or collections of articles, etc .. there are various tradeoffs |
| 01:05.30 | starseeker | brlcad: For the moment, I'm going with book |
| 01:05.43 | brlcad | probably a book for starters, if the "chapters" are each stashed out into their own file(s) then it's a lot easier to change it later |
| 01:05.52 | starseeker | Ah. |
| 01:06.14 | starseeker | I'll probably start doing it in one file, then go back and separate it out later |
| 01:06.42 | brlcad | using xml docbook and xpath, it's fairly straightforward to get sort of #include semantics -- otherwise you have to list things a few times (which isn't too horrible either) |
| 01:07.02 | brlcad | yeah, just *having* it in docbook format is a starter |
| 01:07.23 | brlcad | then it can be reorganized, updated, make stylesheets for various new formats, etc |
| 01:07.37 | starseeker | book looks like a decent match so far. |
| 01:07.55 | starseeker | when do you want me to send you an example of what I'm doing? after I finish one of the volumes? |
| 01:07.56 | brlcad | go for it |
| 01:08.20 | brlcad | erm, if you have an sf.net account, you can just work directly in cvs |
| 01:08.30 | starseeker | Oh, OK. |
| 01:08.34 | brlcad | then it'll be pretty obvious :) |
| 01:08.35 | starseeker | I'm starseeker on sf, IIRC |
| 01:09.00 | starseeker | Didn't know if you wanted me mucking around in cvs yet ;-) |
| 01:09.17 | brlcad | it's cool |
| 01:09.59 | brlcad | so long as the rate is low enough that I can review every commit (which I do), I'm pretty open to just letting new folks get involved |
| 01:10.07 | starseeker | If I start now, it will basically be starting from the wvText output and gradually becoming actual xml |
| 01:10.09 | starseeker | cool :-) |
| 01:10.20 | brlcad | should read HACKING file in the top-level, has some basic guidelines |
| 01:10.32 | starseeker | OK |
| 01:10.41 | brlcad | like don't break code if you do go editing code, or do your best to not break the build even when adding new files, etc |
| 01:11.18 | starseeker | right. Since I won't be touching code yet that's OK, and the build can't be set up for the docs until the docs are processable ;-) |
| 01:11.56 | brlcad | yep |
| 01:11.59 | starseeker | I take it the build will ignore files in doc it doesn't recognize? |
| 01:12.15 | brlcad | and even once they are added, they'll probably be "opt-in" via some --enable-docs option at first |
| 01:12.34 | starseeker | Right. Particularly if we rely on the external system to have a working docbook chain |
| 01:12.38 | starseeker | that's quite an assumption |
| 01:12.46 | brlcad | yeah, that's a slew of configure checks |
| 01:13.17 | brlcad | you're added |
| 01:13.28 | brlcad | presume you know how to checkout/use cvs? |
| 01:13.53 | starseeker | Yep :-) |
| 01:13.55 | starseeker | thanks! |
| 01:14.08 | starseeker | where do you want me working? subdirectory in doc? |
| 01:14.21 | brlcad | yeah, that's probably the place for now |
| 01:15.00 | brlcad | doc/book perhaps :) |
| 01:15.06 | starseeker | :-) |
| 01:15.37 | starseeker | it would probably be better to have doc/book/vol2 - there will be a fair number of images involved by the end |
| 01:17.30 | brlcad | hm, I was kind of hoping to get away from the "volumes" |
| 01:17.38 | brlcad | they don't exactly make sense |
| 01:17.48 | starseeker | Oh. OK, that's not a problem |
| 01:18.17 | starseeker | How were you thinking to structure it? It's probably easier to set that up from the get-go |
| 01:18.53 | starseeker | a "book.xml" file with chapters in their own files? |
| 01:19.15 | brlcad | vol II is basically a bunch of tutorials that build on each other, plus a big command index, plus an 'article' on primitives, plus some other stuff; vol I and vol III are primarily informational though III also has more (moderately advanced) tutorials; IV tells you how to convert stuff ... |
| 01:19.34 | brlcad | there's very little consistency imo to those groupings and a lot of crossover |
| 01:20.07 | brlcad | sure, that works .. your call since you're the one doing the work :) |
| 01:20.37 | starseeker | OK. If you like, we can adopt the convention of the "book.xml" file being the control file and putting individual "tutorials"/articles/etc in their own files. My main concern is not to pollute with a bunch of files that will eventually need to vanish, since that's a pain in cvs... |
| 01:20.42 | brlcad | i'll whine if I see something I really don't like :) |
| 01:20.45 | starseeker | hehe |
| 01:21.13 | brlcad | don't worry about cvs .. it is afterall going to be gone by end of year :) |
| 01:21.44 | starseeker | True :-) |
| 01:23.27 | starseeker | OK, I guess I'll go ahead and put my current "working" file up there. Even if it is eventually chopped up into other files, at least the markup will be preserved in cvs |
| 01:24.10 | brlcad | yeah, don't be afraid to commit as much as you like, can rarely ever commit too early or too frequently :) |
| 01:24.24 | starseeker | :-) |
| 01:34.56 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: 03starseeker * 10brlcad/doc/book/VolumeII.xml: |
| 01:34.56 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: This is the initial text only translation of the original source |
| 01:34.56 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: document of the BRL-CAD Tutorial Series Volume II - Introduction to MGED. |
| 01:34.56 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: Despite the extension, it is not a DocBook XML document in its current |
| 01:34.56 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: form - it is commited in this state only to record the starting point |
| 01:34.56 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: for the conversion to XML. |
| 01:35.00 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: Translation was done from Word using wvText from wv-1.2.3 |
| 01:36.42 | ``Erik | wow, a commit bit already |
| 01:36.50 | ``Erik | now, I have to ask |
| 01:36.53 | ``Erik | is it xml, or sgml? |
| 01:36.58 | starseeker | It will be xml |
| 01:37.18 | starseeker | That's supposedly the "wave of the future" for docbook |
| 01:37.26 | starseeker | apparently sgml was a bit too complicated |
| 01:38.12 | starseeker | Hang on - in a few minutes I'll commit what I've got marked up so far |
| 01:45.50 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: 03starseeker * 10brlcad/doc/book/VolumeII.xml: Beginnings of Docbook XML markup. |
| 01:46.35 | starseeker | I'm not sure if we want the PUBLIC tag or if we want to store our own copy - it will depend on the requirements of the toolchain |
| 01:50.38 | starseeker | OK, at least it's a start. Bedtime for me. Thanks brlcad! |
| 01:51.12 | brlcad | thank you! |
| 01:51.16 | brlcad | it is a start |
| 01:51.28 | brlcad | that's the best progress to date ;) |
| 01:51.35 | starseeker | really? eeep. |
| 01:51.57 | brlcad | well, you'd see docbook files lying around had others gotten further |
| 01:52.07 | starseeker | point |
| 01:52.16 | brlcad | I've set this same up for other projects, but just not for cad .. |
| 01:53.13 | starseeker | I think the BRL-CAD files will actually map rather well to this, based on progress so far. |
| 01:53.47 | starseeker | It looks like whoever wrote the original word files was using the same conventions that Docbook modeled off of |
| 01:53.55 | starseeker | (caution, information, etc.) |
| 01:55.50 | brlcad | at this point, shouldn't matter |
| 01:55.58 | starseeker | Cool. |
| 02:09.07 | starseeker | brlcad: Do we want to keep using the screenshots in the original documents or are updated ones in order? |
| 02:15.14 | brlcad | updated ones are in order for some of them, particularly the menu shotw |
| 02:16.41 | starseeker | OK. I can only take them on Linux though - is that OK or do we want Windows shots? |
| 02:18.46 | brlcad | it should be fine |
| 02:18.50 | starseeker | Cool :-) |
| 02:19.02 | brlcad | they were originally taken on linux anyways |
| 02:19.17 | starseeker | Ah :-). |
| 02:20.02 | brlcad | heh |
| 02:20.41 | brlcad | windows gets by far the most downloads, but most of the users (at least that I interact with) are on linux and mac os x |
| 02:21.44 | starseeker | Maxima was like that too, IIRC. |
| 02:22.25 | brlcad | just shows how much a demand there is in the open source realm.. and how much better we need to be doing on usability |
| 02:22.43 | starseeker | I was somewhat surprised to see SALOME had another release |
| 02:23.06 | starseeker | I wish I knew what they were good at but building the sucker is a nightmare |
| 02:24.07 | starseeker | brlcad: Do you think the UI will stay with TCL/TK for the foreseeable future? (just curious) |
| 02:24.11 | louipc | bah windows users just don't get it |
| 02:26.15 | starseeker | louipc: They have an expectation of everything being GUI, that's for sure... |
| 02:26.20 | *** join/#brlcad Z80-Boy (i=clock@77-56-74-3.dclient.hispeed.ch) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:26.20 | *** join/#brlcad PrezKennedy (n=Matt@74.86.45.130) |
| 02:26.20 | *** join/#brlcad CIA-4 (n=CIA@208.69.182.149) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:26.20 | *** join/#brlcad jack- (i=jack@unaffiliated/jack) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:26.44 | louipc | hehe yeah that's for sure. |
| 02:26.44 | starseeker | To be fair about it though, most open source stuff doesn't present a good front on Windows - it's a real challenge |
| 02:27.38 | starseeker | For almost every Maxima release getting it working on Windows was the major stumbling block. |
| 02:28.16 | starseeker | mingw is an adventure... |
| 02:28.19 | louipc | yeah windows doesn't provide a good environment |
| 02:28.42 | starseeker | Does BRL-CAD build using mingw and friends or more normal tools? |
| 02:28.48 | louipc | hehe I love mingw, I can kind of pretend I'm not in windows anymore |
| 02:29.02 | louipc | starseeker: there was a guy doing builds in cygwin |
| 02:29.07 | starseeker | ouch |
| 02:29.38 | starseeker | Cygwin is great if you want to turn Windows into a pseudo-Unix box, but for distributing binaries it has a lot of overhead... |
| 02:29.41 | louipc | I think there's an intent to build it in mingw if it hasn't been achieved already |
| 02:30.53 | starseeker | the build instructions had to specify specific versions of each component, and if you were forced to use newer ones it was a whole new problem... |
| 02:31.14 | starseeker | Of course, that was back when Win98 still had to be taken into account... |
| 02:31.32 | louipc | yeah win98 caused issues |
| 02:32.06 | starseeker | oops |
| 02:32.07 | louipc | I built tcl/tk in mingw! |
| 02:32.16 | louipc | in win98! |
| 02:32.18 | starseeker | tcl/tk is great for portability |
| 02:32.27 | starseeker | it just feels funny ;-) |
| 02:32.56 | starseeker | Actually, the most useful free Lisp graphical binding currently is to TK... |
| 02:33.03 | starseeker | good stuff |
| 02:33.34 | louipc | yeah there's a bunch of good things like that |
| 02:34.44 | Maloeran | From what I heard, tcl/tk is very lacking in widgets and flexibility |
| 02:35.11 | Maloeran | Although I haven't personally used it, I heard from people who needed to write extra widgets constantly |
| 02:35.25 | louipc | how about +itcl, itk, iwidgets ? |
| 02:36.33 | Maloeran | Haven't tried them, I'm not much into GUIs... |
| 02:36.51 | Maloeran | gtk2 is quite nice though |
| 02:41.59 | louipc | that's quite a flip-flop eh? |
| 02:42.08 | starseeker | Hehe |
| 02:42.34 | louipc | sounds kind of like how I'd do things :P I have trouble programming from scratch because I've little experience |
| 02:42.42 | starseeker | I was going to ask if Paraview would be a logical starting point for interface/visualization code to hook up to BRL-CAD, but I see the latest version has now moved to QT |
| 02:44.06 | starseeker | Well, 2.6 still used tcl/tk |
| 02:44.07 | starseeker | thought so |
| 02:44.31 | louipc | neat ARL contributed to it |
| 02:44.36 | starseeker | :-) |
| 02:44.58 | louipc | or "contrinuted" to it |
| 02:47.16 | louipc | looks like it's client/server. just the latest client is in QT |
| 02:47.37 | starseeker | QT4 + VTK ~= drool ;-) |
| 02:48.23 | louipc | haha it has 6 different licenses? |
| 02:49.18 | starseeker | they're using a lot of libs ;-) |
| 02:49.51 | starseeker | They must bundle like BRL-CAD does. |
| 02:50.05 | starseeker | In fact, that explains what the ebuild guys where talking about with external libs |
| 02:53.33 | starseeker | Is it considered "bad taste" to discuss GUI questions? |
| 02:53.46 | louipc | I don't think so |
| 02:54.50 | louipc | indeed |
| 02:55.47 | starseeker | VTK definitely rules the roost for "looks" in the open source candidates I've seen, but I don't know how well it would do for interactive CAD type scenarios |
| 02:56.17 | starseeker | LOL - yep, Paraview is building it's own copy of VTK |
| 02:56.49 | starseeker | at least they seem to be willing to try to use the system QT4... |
| 02:57.49 | starseeker | Well, later all! |
| 03:08.14 | *** join/#brlcad Twingy (n=justin@74.92.144.217) |
| 03:16.16 | brlcad | louipc: I've built everything under mingw in the past, only required a few minor edits at the time |
| 03:17.44 | brlcad | starseeker: TBD really, MGED won't likely drop Tk anytime soon .. but a new modeling interface could certainly use something different |
| 03:38.34 | *** join/#brlcad poolio (n=poolio@c-71-206-215-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 04:38.15 | *** join/#brlcad PK (i=Matt@74.86.45.130) |
| 05:48.18 | Z80-Boy | what's the command to turn *model* axes on in all four panes? I could try to put it into the .mgedrc manually |
| 07:16.54 | *** join/#brlcad Z80-Boy (n=clock@zux221-122-143.adsl.green.ch) |
| 09:54.49 | *** join/#brlcad elite01 (n=elite01@dslb-088-070-019-066.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 10:09.42 | *** join/#brlcad elite01 (n=elite01@dslb-088-070-019-066.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 11:31.36 | *** join/#brlcad elite01 (n=elite01@dslb-088-070-019-066.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 13:25.41 | *** join/#brlcad Elperion (n=Bary@p5487788D.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:38.37 | *** join/#brlcad elite01 (n=elite01@dyndsl-080-228-186-169.ewe-ip-backbone.de) |
| 14:22.30 | *** join/#brlcad SWPadnos (n=Me@dsl245.esjtvtli.sover.net) |
| 14:42.48 | *** join/#brlcad elite01 (n=elite01@dyndsl-080-228-186-169.ewe-ip-backbone.de) |
| 15:32.58 | Maloeran | Urgh, one USD is now worth less than one CAD. Just five years ago, 1CAD was worth 0.62USD |
| 15:34.53 | minute | CAD |
| 15:34.54 | minute | ? |
| 15:36.24 | Z80-Boy | paid in BRL-CADs |
| 15:57.04 | minute | ? |
| 15:59.51 | Maloeran | Canadian Dollars |
| 16:04.05 | minute | oh, cool |
| 16:04.19 | minute | or not as the case may be |
| 16:20.40 | *** join/#brlcad robin (n=robin@dslb-088-070-019-066.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 16:24.33 | *** join/#brlcad qazwsx (n=qazwsx@unaffiliated/adgj) |
| 16:30.10 | ``Erik | heh |
| 17:27.56 | qazwsx | does brlcad generate meshes of the parts before rendering, or does it just render it directly? (i.e. I'm hoping to use brlcad as a csg library and do my rendering in opengl with the meshes) |
| 18:49.31 | *** join/#brlcad Z80-Boy (i=clock@77-56-74-3.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 20:03.36 | *** join/#brlcad yukonbob (n=yukonbob@198.235.198.234) |
| 20:32.39 | Z80-Boy | brlcad: would it be possible to model a water wave, like the surfer's dream tube, in brl-cad and then render it with Sun? |
| 20:33.15 | Z80-Boy | What primitive would be suitable to render irregularly wrinkled, twisted surface? |
| 20:33.33 | Z80-Boy | That can't be done with extrusion since it's curled up. |
| 20:37.13 | Z80-Boy | dsp? |
| 21:13.02 | yukonbob | dsp alone won't have a "curl" where there are two different levels of water (ie: water level, and curling crest of wave above it at same Z axis) |
| 21:13.58 | yukonbob | s/same Z axis/ on Z axis at same X,Y/ |
| 21:35.45 | Z80-Boy | dsp takes some file but the format is mystery |
| 21:35.54 | Z80-Boy | seems it's neither binary file nor a text file |
| 21:36.03 | Z80-Boy | tried both and neither worked |
| 21:40.52 | poolio | brlcad: heard of randy pausch? |
| 21:42.31 | yukonbob | Z80-Boy: it's a matrix of unsigned 16-bit ints. |
| 21:43.32 | Z80-Boy | can the file be longer than needed? |
| 21:51.24 | Z80-Boy | it works, cool |
| 21:51.32 | Z80-Boy | needs just exact size |
| 21:51.35 | Z80-Boy | width*height*2 |
| 21:52.37 | yukonbob | "*2" == file byte size, but ea. datum is the 16bit (2byte) int value. |
| 23:10.28 | *** join/#brlcad qazwsx (n=qazwsx@unaffiliated/adgj) |
| 23:10.34 | qazwsx | is thre a way to export modesl out of brlcad as meshes? |
| 23:16.02 | ``Erik | sorta, yes |
| 23:16.05 | qazwsx | great |
| 23:16.10 | qazwsx | tell me the direction please |
| 23:16.12 | ``Erik | but it can be a very slow process, O(n^3) |
| 23:16.17 | qazwsx | that is fine, no need to be real time |
| 23:16.30 | qazwsx | how does this work? which prog? |
| 23:16.30 | ``Erik | the NMG routines convert, um, look at things liek g-stl and those |
| 23:17.11 | ``Erik | g-nmg is also one to look at |
| 23:18.05 | qazwsx | yeah, that looked alot more useful than stereo :-) |
| 23:18.58 | ``Erik | um, stl is a simple triangle mesh format |
| 23:20.08 | qazwsx | sorry, what's a "NMG" ? |
| 23:20.32 | ``Erik | n-manifold geometry |
| 23:20.48 | qazwsx | okay, I'm an idiot |
| 23:20.50 | qazwsx | g-stl is what I want |
| 23:20.52 | ``Erik | you'd probably be more interested in BOTs |
| 23:20.55 | ``Erik | bag of triangle |
| 23:20.57 | qazwsx | thanks, the whole stereo thing threw me off |
| 23:21.09 | qazwsx | -b gave me a binary file |
| 23:21.11 | ``Erik | *shrug* it does sound odd... and n/p :) |
| 23:21.33 | qazwsx | wait, sorry, what does BOT offer me over stero's list of triangles? |
| 23:21.38 | qazwsx | I'm greedy, and want the best solution :-) |
| 23:24.50 | ``Erik | nothing? both are sets of triangles, just in a slightly different output format |
| 23:25.30 | qazwsx | okay, just checking |
| 23:26.09 | qazwsx | please forgive me newbiness: can you tell me which one of the 400+ cmd line utilities will let me query about a *.g database file like I can in mged? stuff like "ls blah.g" or |
| 23:26.12 | qazwsx | l blah.s |
| 23:35.57 | ``Erik | mged.... |
| 23:36.05 | ``Erik | mged -c blah.g tops |
| 23:36.08 | ``Erik | mged -c blah.g l blah.s |
| 23:37.15 | qazwsx | toh, I can specify a single command oh right |
| 23:37.16 | qazwsx | thanks :-) |