| 04:20.58 | *** join/#brlcad narnia (~terrylr@johann.blauedonau.com) |
| 04:39.26 | learner | how exhausting.. 5 hours on a single bug |
| 05:10.24 | *** join/#brlcad Chesh_bbl (~Sammer@71-32-2-186.spkn.qwest.net) |
| 05:26.17 | learner | hello Cheshirc |
| 05:29.27 | Cheshirc | heya |
| 05:29.39 | Cheshirc | this is fun |
| 05:29.52 | learner | this is? :) |
| 05:29.57 | Cheshirc | yes .. |
| 05:30.17 | Cheshirc | i tryed talking to ChanServ erlier .. |
| 05:30.25 | Cheshirc | on reponce |
| 05:30.32 | learner | first time on irc? |
| 05:30.35 | Cheshirc | on = nno |
| 05:30.48 | Cheshirc | long time ago |
| 05:31.08 | Cheshirc | 98' or something .. i can't |
| 05:31.18 | Cheshirc | remember |
| 05:31.53 | Cheshirc | but i'm so glad to see my typing getting slower and more error prone |
| 05:32.01 | learner | :) |
| 05:33.00 | learner | i was similar several years back |
| 05:33.11 | learner | hadn't used it since early 90's, then got started up again |
| 05:33.25 | learner | haven't disconnected for several years now |
| 05:33.26 | Cheshirc | be nice to get a spell check wrapper for X-chat.. i'd use it all the time |
| 05:33.44 | Cheshirc | woww |
| 05:34.35 | Cheshirc | used to hang out on the nt undernet chan .. now loks like nuxX for me |
| 05:34.44 | Cheshirc | +apps |
| 05:34.44 | learner | freenode made most of the difference |
| 05:34.54 | learner | this network is much more organized/friendly than the others imo |
| 05:35.24 | Cheshirc | probly get less kiddie / goofballs |
| 05:36.00 | learner | plus just about every major open source project has a presence on freenode, so I can coordinate/collaborate/ask questions/etc more easily |
| 05:36.23 | Cheshirc | i havn't looked at the chan list yet . i hope this is more developer ircNet like |
| 05:36.30 | learner | a lot less kids, or at least less tolerance for the assclowns |
| 05:37.09 | learner | i'd say this is probably _the_ developer network at this point |
| 05:38.24 | Cheshirc | i used to hang with some gals that would change nicks and raz folks on some of the more questioable chans |
| 05:38.24 | learner | heh, it probably won't give you the chanlist without some coercing, it's pretty big |
| 05:38.36 | Cheshirc | ahh .. waisted youth |
| 05:39.33 | Cheshirc | hey, i think i wa old than too |
| 05:39.36 | Cheshirc | oh well |
| 05:39.49 | Cheshirc | than=then |
| 05:40.13 | learner | :) |
| 05:41.24 | Cheshirc | know of manny using mpi to get data into the app here ? |
| 05:41.43 | learner | by the way, you can ask chanserv "help" and it should give you a menu |
| 05:41.51 | Cheshirc | k |
| 05:41.52 | learner | nickserv is probably where you'd want to start, though |
| 05:41.57 | learner | for registering a nick |
| 05:42.14 | Cheshirc | yea , i should do that |
| 05:42.24 | learner | using mpi to get data into the app? which app? |
| 05:42.43 | Cheshirc | bricad |
| 05:43.05 | learner | not sure what you mean by that, though |
| 05:43.24 | learner | brl-cad consists of over 400 "apps", too ;) |
| 05:44.34 | Cheshirc | u get a cluster up .. like 2-10 puters ... cruch stuff .. data feed into visuzatin application for viewing |
| 05:44.40 | learner | i'll assume you mean into either the modeler or the raytrace library itself, though |
| 05:44.55 | learner | ahh, brl-cad already will do that, but not via mpi |
| 05:45.12 | learner | it does it's own message passing for remote computation |
| 05:45.19 | learner | mpi would make a nice patch, though |
| 05:45.26 | Cheshirc | i'm now farmiliar enough with it yet .. |
| 05:46.05 | Cheshirc | looking for some fun stuff 2do .. that might turn into work of some sort |
| 05:46.45 | learner | I'm toyed with the idea of adding mpi/pvm communication into the raytracer |
| 05:46.51 | learner | that would be a fun project |
| 05:47.57 | Cheshirc | still investgating .. looks like big guns use puchashed ( not enough money to buy here) software |
| 05:48.29 | Cheshirc | looking to see if'n there's a gpl way to go |
| 05:48.56 | learner | brl-cad is the only open source solid modeler |
| 05:49.36 | Cheshirc | ok pov must be buy for bizz type |
| 05:49.50 | Cheshirc | it's a modler, right ? |
| 05:50.04 | learner | there are other raytracers (povray) and other 2D modelers (qcad and pythoncad come to mind) and mesh modelers (blender), but brl-cad is the only solid modeler |
| 05:50.19 | Cheshirc | ok |
| 05:50.35 | learner | pov is not a modeler, it's pretty much just a raytracer with a geometry format |
| 05:50.54 | Cheshirc | i need to read more on this |
| 05:50.56 | learner | s/raytracer/renderer/ .. does more than raytracing |
| 05:51.32 | learner | we kick pov's butt on the ray-tracing side, but then win on the global illumination and realism side |
| 05:51.40 | learner | s/then/they/ |
| 05:52.10 | learner | brl-cad's raytracer dates back over 20 years, one of the very first written |
| 05:52.43 | Cheshirc | like how to get math libraries to talk to wut .. i thought maple/wolfram was the most popular |
| 05:53.14 | Cheshirc | i've see the gpl version on the net looks 2b making some headway |
| 05:53.40 | learner | maple/mathematica are rather specific to mathematics computations -- there's an open source equivalent of maple, though I forget the name right now |
| 05:53.44 | Cheshirc | octave ? |
| 05:53.57 | Cheshirc | something like that , i think |
| 05:55.14 | learner | that's one of them, though I think I was thinking of maxima |
| 05:55.41 | learner | those are drastically different apps than a modeler or a raytrace/visualization engine |
| 05:57.35 | Cheshirc | yea, some projects need to ge t the data cruched and fed to some format somehow .. |
| 05:58.35 | Cheshirc | i thought math libraries were getting soe of the number crunching done, then .. idonna know |
| 05:58.54 | Cheshirc | soe = some |
| 05:59.06 | learner | oh, they are -- that is a common component of most of those |
| 05:59.43 | learner | brl-cad has rather tuned pre-processor based (inline) vector and matrix math library |
| 06:00.34 | learner | most of the parallelization ala mpi is done at a higher level, though .. spread out larger tasks across your network |
| 06:00.42 | Cheshirc | sounds like everything is project spacific .. i thought there was a general method / app libary set some were using |
| 06:01.20 | learner | like for rendering an image, you would have each mpi node work on a scanline of an image being rendered.. not individual computations, they complete too fast to warrant that tiny a task |
| 06:01.45 | learner | there are some math libraries out there that are widely used |
| 06:01.46 | Cheshirc | ok |
| 06:01.57 | learner | like gnump |
| 06:02.09 | learner | there's probably a dozen "big" name math library projects |
| 06:02.19 | Cheshirc | never heard of that one .. cool |
| 06:02.46 | Cheshirc | i'll get more farmiliar with wut's out there |
| 06:03.39 | learner | blitz++ is another |
| 06:03.53 | Cheshirc | thanks |
| 06:04.13 | learner | http://www.scd.ucar.edu/softlib/mathlib.html |
| 06:04.38 | Cheshirc | i'm there |
| 06:04.43 | learner | that has a list of the traditional old name math libraries (most are either fortran or converted from it) |
| 06:05.16 | Cheshirc | wow .. i like to copy and paste whenever i can .. less typing/ error prone |
| 06:05.57 | Cheshirc | fun stuff |
| 06:06.47 | learner | depending on whether you are more interested in procedureal vs object oriented vs functional etc will steer you various directions |
| 06:07.25 | learner | also factors like focusing on vector or matrix math, perhaps equation solving, numerical solutions, differential equations, interval arithmetic |
| 06:07.28 | Cheshirc | i can't imagine wut the old gaurd use to go through .. typing full paths all the time |
| 06:07.55 | learner | then there are different implementations: infinite precision, vectorized, parallelized, distributed, etc |
| 06:08.53 | learner | hehe, having typed for so long, I don't think about it much any more :) |
| 06:09.04 | Cheshirc | i need to save this to a file |
| 06:09.08 | Cheshirc | hehehe |
| 06:10.00 | learner | basically just pointing out that you're going to have to really narrow down what it is you're interested in doing :) |
| 06:10.48 | learner | adding an mpi transport layer to a raytrace engine like librt would be respectable resumé/braggin material for most anyone :) |
| 06:11.09 | learner | plus you get to see pretty pictures in the process |
| 06:11.28 | Cheshirc | brother does some cloud/weather trend analasis ( makes the sensors) feed > 100 plus cluster |
| 06:11.59 | Cheshirc | i need to find out wut they use to visualize / how |
| 06:12.30 | learner | that depends on way too many things to really answer and it'd be a customized app in the first place |
| 06:13.13 | learner | many of the high performance codes are already using mpi for things like weather simulations/visualizations |
| 06:13.35 | Cheshirc | i was thinkin out load |
| 06:13.47 | Cheshirc | loud |
| 06:13.52 | learner | it'd be easier to answer whether "project X" uses or could benefit from it |
| 06:14.05 | Cheshirc | true true |
| 06:14.14 | learner | instead of "genre/topic X" |
| 06:14.54 | Cheshirc | i need to do much more diging looks like |
| 06:19.07 | Cheshirc | there are not enough hold your hand/newb this is wut u can do with this and here's some sample hacks to do ( yes, at home) web sites out there |
| 06:19.47 | Cheshirc | i think some kids would get into it if the top layer was more acesisble |
| 06:20.50 | learner | what is it that you're looking to do? |
| 06:20.59 | learner | primarily, that is |
| 06:21.05 | Cheshirc | actually |
| 06:21.08 | learner | learn something? make something? |
| 06:21.18 | learner | write a program? |
| 06:21.22 | Cheshirc | i did have an idea for some stuff |
| 06:21.39 | learner | do tell :) |
| 06:22.05 | Cheshirc | i've got about ten or so good ideas for some things |
| 06:22.27 | Cheshirc | anoman web site |
| 06:22.42 | learner | anoman? |
| 06:23.01 | learner | ~google anoman |
| 06:23.40 | Cheshirc | examples of the many anotated man pages for the less didgialy savy |
| 06:24.08 | learner | ahhh |
| 06:24.13 | learner | never heard of that |
| 06:24.55 | Cheshirc | it dosn't say yum -y ... anywhere that i've found |
| 06:25.12 | Cheshirc | just says there is a switch |
| 06:25.27 | Cheshirc | same em lotta time and effort |
| 06:26.05 | Cheshirc | they don't have to relean how to recreate the wheel evey time |
| 06:26.21 | Cheshirc | same=save |
| 06:27.26 | learner | curious then, what brought/led you to brl-cad |
| 06:27.30 | Cheshirc | folks would be able to further/faster .. get more suff done / less frutrating |
| 06:29.26 | Cheshirc | looking to see if i can hack up some math calces that are needed to visualize ( something) > cluster > lokat-it |
| 06:29.40 | Cheshirc | lookAt-it |
| 06:30.24 | learner | well there's definite potential AND need for that if you can narrow that down a bit :) |
| 06:30.46 | learner | like adding new primitive types |
| 06:30.49 | Cheshirc | so it would seem |
| 06:31.04 | learner | i spent several weeks over a year ago adding a super ellipsoid to brl-cad |
| 06:31.18 | learner | almost got it all working... but not quite |
| 06:31.25 | learner | pretty nifty, though |
| 06:31.31 | Cheshirc | but now i am a little more aware of that .. lol |
| 06:31.52 | Cheshirc | very cool |
| 06:31.56 | learner | http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/~pbourke/surfaces/superellipse/ |
| 06:32.27 | learner | basically a single object that can become any of the shapes shown near the bottom of that page |
| 06:33.29 | Cheshirc | by changing the input ffigures, huh ? |
| 06:33.38 | learner | another fun one is a steiner surface and a super toroidal surface |
| 06:33.53 | Cheshirc | that looks .. not easy |
| 06:34.52 | learner | it wasn't too easy |
| 06:35.14 | learner | had to read a few research papers, and consult with a math expert friend of mine more than a few times |
| 06:35.38 | learner | all the while trying to learn the code too |
| 06:35.46 | learner | pretty much got it, though |
| 06:36.07 | learner | just some trickery left in brl-cad's numerical solver |
| 06:36.16 | Cheshirc | er, code in wut ? |
| 06:36.23 | Cheshirc | py/c+ |
| 06:36.25 | Cheshirc | ? |
| 06:36.36 | learner | that'd be another interesting project.. replace the numerical solver with something better |
| 06:36.48 | learner | brl-cad's almost all C |
| 06:36.58 | Cheshirc | wow... hard core |
| 06:37.07 | learner | the geometry editor is a mix of C and Tcl |
| 06:38.24 | Cheshirc | any rad kits out there to asist in that / or is the library too spialized ? |
| 06:38.30 | learner | the new editor under development is mostly C++ right now |
| 06:39.04 | learner | rad kits? for what? |
| 06:39.27 | Cheshirc | rad= rapid application development |
| 06:39.39 | learner | yes, I know.. for what :) |
| 06:39.50 | Cheshirc | like vb / port to c |
| 06:40.09 | Cheshirc | i thought there was soma that for nix now too |
| 06:40.35 | learner | Tcl is a higher level glue language like that |
| 06:40.45 | learner | quirky, but higher level |
| 06:41.46 | Cheshirc | sorry.. i don't know .. i guess now for this project .. u are savy enough to know that u just have to put your head down and go for it |
| 06:42.01 | Cheshirc | now=not |
| 06:42.01 | learner | in general, generic rad languages are either too platform-specific (cocoa, vb, .net) or generally too inefficient |
| 06:42.34 | learner | for our uses/interests/needs at least |
| 06:42.47 | Cheshirc | ahh .. ok |
| 06:43.02 | learner | Tcl was somewhat of a hindsight regret, but it is rather cross-platform at least |
| 06:43.57 | learner | cocoa is probably the fastest or most efficient to code in, but only works on one platform |
| 06:45.16 | learner | something like python or ruby have potential, but they're generally more problematic to get right performance-wise |
| 06:45.21 | Cheshirc | i need to find out more about this kinda thing.. i just saw py-numeric stuff recently . |
| 06:45.54 | Cheshirc | i thought a guy could hack up a framwork that way |
| 06:47.13 | Cheshirc | i think i'm embarasing myself too much |
| 06:47.15 | Cheshirc | hehehe |
| 06:47.39 | learner | heh, nah |
| 06:48.41 | learner | everyone has their area of stuff that they're good at/for |
| 06:54.19 | learner | so you know, you're more than welcome to contribute here.. we've got a very "open door" policy with more than enough to work on, be it websites, code, docs, tutorials, databasing, and then some |
| 06:54.40 | Cheshirc | thanks |
| 06:54.56 | *** join/#brlcad d_rossberg (~c28bf505@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 06:55.32 | Cheshirc | wutcha databasing ? |
| 06:56.07 | learner | several different projects there |
| 06:56.22 | Cheshirc | or , ah wut needs databasing ? |
| 06:56.23 | learner | the most significant is probably benchmark results |
| 06:57.13 | learner | we have performance numbers that go back more than 20 years from very very old computers (pdp-11, vax, cray-xmp, apple ii, etc) forward through time |
| 06:57.15 | Cheshirc | sounds like fun |
| 06:57.46 | learner | want to basically gather all that information together into a database and draw up graphs of performance, etc |
| 06:58.18 | learner | you can compare how a machine today compares to a 50 million dollar supercomputer from the mid 80's |
| 06:58.34 | Cheshirc | i was trying to comapre nux's on the same hardware with the byte/ unix benchmarks .. but alsa .. all my hd s and different |
| 06:58.39 | learner | see how much of a difference different types of cache make |
| 06:58.48 | learner | different compilers |
| 06:58.57 | learner | the performance improvements of brl-cad itself over time |
| 06:58.58 | Cheshirc | are different |
| 06:59.43 | Cheshirc | cool build last two vers... comape results |
| 06:59.49 | learner | the brl-cad benchmark is pretty "stable" benchmark in that it's a direct timing of our core library doing "real" work -- it raytraces a standard set of images |
| 06:59.57 | learner | exactly |
| 07:00.21 | learner | could even rerun older versions (we have sources and binary) |
| 07:00.44 | Cheshirc | most of these guys have mega video cards though .. right .. u kinda gotta |
| 07:00.46 | Cheshirc | ? |
| 07:01.04 | learner | no, not really |
| 07:01.17 | learner | raytracing is all done on the cpu |
| 07:01.21 | learner | very cpu and memory intensive |
| 07:01.30 | Cheshirc | i'd bet that has alotta impact |
| 07:01.37 | Cheshirc | ok |
| 07:02.04 | learner | it's a very good metric for comparing a machine's general performance given how it tests memory and cpu |
| 07:02.38 | Cheshirc | i woulda never ... fun stuff |
| 07:02.41 | learner | the graphics card only comes into play in the modeler where you're spinning things around.. that has nothing to do with the brl-cad benchmark |
| 07:03.00 | learner | in fact it was written before there even were "graphics cards" |
| 07:03.05 | Cheshirc | lol |
| 07:03.16 | *** join/#brlcad cad170 (~42cd6bc9@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 07:03.41 | cad170 | hi |
| 07:03.58 | Cheshirc | i remember talking with a guy that had 128m vidio card .. years ago ... mac, i think |
| 07:04.04 | learner | a nice old picture on one of the first that did have a graphical vector display: http://sourceforge.net/project/screenshots.php?group_id=105292&ssid=4474 |
| 07:04.33 | Cheshirc | like more than ten years ago, i think ... now it's commanplace |
| 07:05.01 | cad170 | god bless gamers |
| 07:05.13 | learner | indeed :) |
| 07:05.53 | learner | the pdp-11 had 4mb total system memory |
| 07:06.11 | Cheshirc | funny pic ... remids my of the boxes i worked on in highschool |
| 07:06.21 | learner | that was before my time, though |
| 07:07.11 | Cheshirc | they used cards for input |
| 07:07.15 | Cheshirc | hehehe |
| 07:07.19 | learner | Cheshirc, that's just the "display terminal" to the computer -- the computer itself is much bigger |
| 07:08.06 | Cheshirc | yea ... probly as big as 5 refriuators , just out of view |
| 07:09.51 | Cheshirc | that darm Remote .. |
| 07:10.06 | Cheshirc | at least he didn't kick him |
| 07:12.00 | Cheshirc | well thanks for the info .. i'll come back soon to check back |
| 07:12.32 | Cheshirc | i can't remember wut box the tar is on |
| 07:12.40 | learner | no problem |
| 07:13.07 | learner | ahh, west coaster, eh? |
| 07:13.17 | Cheshirc | i have this one old beater with 5 removable drives |
| 07:13.33 | Cheshirc | ten distros on 3? machines |
| 07:14.16 | Cheshirc | yepper .. all most far west as u can get from here .. hehehehe |
| 07:14.55 | Cheshirc | too bad all the new hacks are hd clones |
| 07:15.27 | Cheshirc | wut do u use ? |
| 07:15.43 | Cheshirc | hd=rh .. redhat |
| 07:15.44 | learner | my primary workstations are mac os x now |
| 07:15.55 | learner | for several years now |
| 07:16.12 | learner | I have various linux boxes too |
| 07:16.20 | Cheshirc | i just loaded foresight |
| 07:16.30 | learner | gentoo is my general pref, but I have/do run debian and rh |
| 07:16.46 | learner | my main server is freebsd |
| 07:16.52 | Cheshirc | yopper.. fc4 .. kubutu.. tinysofa |
| 07:17.24 | Cheshirc | mandrake seems to be the most uptodate / out of the box |
| 07:18.02 | Cheshirc | centos seems pretty good |
| 07:18.09 | learner | ever tried gentoo? |
| 07:18.27 | Cheshirc | i got the cd's .. not yet |
| 07:19.14 | Cheshirc | freebsd rc . netbsd next, i think |
| 07:21.27 | learner | tried os x? |
| 07:21.43 | Cheshirc | there are like 5 rhel4 clones out there .. i like to see which one is going to get the most update/net wiki support |
| 07:21.58 | Cheshirc | os x .. no |
| 07:22.07 | Cheshirc | i'll check it out |
| 07:22.13 | learner | very much like a mix of freebsd and linux where most everything just works |
| 07:22.44 | learner | no senseless unending editing of config files and hunting for manual pages |
| 07:22.54 | Cheshirc | mandrake LE is pretty spiffy |
| 07:23.51 | Cheshirc | py 2.4 pgsql 8.0.1+ |
| 07:24.18 | Cheshirc | they seem to have it all packaged up |
| 07:25.59 | learner | mmhmm |
| 07:27.19 | Cheshirc | been on it since cr3? |
| 07:27.59 | Cheshirc | rc3+ always been stable/ easy to load .. no crashes |
| 07:29.36 | Cheshirc | i can't say that about the others, although it might be my video |
| 07:30.11 | learner | of mandrake? no.. haven't used it in years |
| 07:30.33 | learner | linux took a second seat after I picked up mac os x as my primary |
| 07:30.40 | Cheshirc | i think they just took the lead |
| 07:31.00 | learner | hmm? who took what lead? |
| 07:31.16 | learner | os vendor-wise.. I believe gentoo just snatched the lead from debian |
| 07:31.17 | Cheshirc | looks/ feels ready for prime time |
| 07:31.58 | learner | at least when counting number of seats, gentoo and debian have been ranked close |
| 07:32.33 | Cheshirc | ease of use/install/update/most recent packaging all that , i could be mistaken |
| 07:33.24 | learner | oh, probably in that regard |
| 07:33.35 | learner | not exactly in terms of popularity though |
| 07:33.49 | learner | mandrake has always been one of the easiest |
| 07:34.14 | Cheshirc | yea, i ve got wut .. 5 deb derivitaves |
| 07:34.25 | learner | debian for stability, gentoo for performance, mandrake for speed, redhat for support |
| 07:34.40 | learner | s/speed/ease/ bleh |
| 07:35.14 | Cheshirc | hate the font thingie ... it's probably work out somewhere, i just havn't looked it up |
| 07:35.43 | Cheshirc | lol |
| 07:40.58 | Cheshirc | ah well thanks .. seeya soon |
| 07:41.06 | learner | nice to meet you |
| 07:41.10 | *** part/#brlcad Cheshirc (~Sammer@71-32-2-186.spkn.qwest.net) |
| 10:08.33 | archivist | got a few errors on my box from last nights download http://www.pastebin.archivist.info/pastebin.php?show=9 |
| 10:08.53 | archivist | debian woody (a bit old i know) |
| 12:51.42 | learner | archivist, ahh, thou hasn't not read INSTALL -- run ./autogen.sh first |
| 12:54.54 | learner | we use the entire gnu build system, which consists of autoconf, automake, and libtool -- the prep steps for all three are different from running just autoconf -- in fact i'm shocked that made a configure script |
| 12:56.51 | learner | the autogen.sh script encapsulates everything that has to be done, as well as accounts for several version mismatch bugs or system misconfigurations, as well as checks for proper versions before even getting started |
| 13:07.00 | archivist | heh step 1 says nothing about autoconf.sh |
| 13:07.44 | archivist | or even at all |
| 13:11.48 | learner | ahh, touché, I meant the README |
| 13:12.43 | learner | where it says something to that effect if you check out from CVS |
| 13:14.15 | archivist | ya mean ignore INSTALL the file that SHOULD tell me what to do |
| 13:14.27 | learner | The rest of the docs are geared on the assumption of a source distribution where the configure script was pregenerated for you |
| 13:14.52 | learner | you don't have to ignore INSTALL, it talks about what you can do after you run autogen.sh |
| 13:14.56 | learner | basically the steps to build are: |
| 13:15.00 | learner | ./autogen.sh |
| 13:15.06 | learner | ./configure |
| 13:15.11 | learner | make |
| 13:15.18 | learner | sudo make install (or su then make install) |
| 13:16.15 | learner | there's a lot of options you can give to configure, but the defaults will basically be the easiest and most inclusive for now |
| 13:18.29 | archivist | I cant try it till i get home tonight, the first page of readme was just info, so i jumped straight to install you could move that extra step to install so ppl dont miss it |
| 13:25.59 | learner | that's in our TODO file |
| 13:26.22 | learner | "* need non-generic installation instructions" |
| 13:28.42 | CIA-3 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/TODO: make sure sgi knobs work, add variance/deviation to benchmarks |
| 13:29.52 | archivist | I noticed the make windows work todo, which compiler do ppl use on windows |
| 13:30.05 | narnia | learner, fyi, tomorrow, 11 may 2005, i am out all day. yet another wasted day in the state of illinois court system. |
| 13:33.08 | learner | that todo is general developer musings, a better list is the tasks and tracker items up on the sf.net project page |
| 13:33.37 | learner | that said, there are some using studio, others using gcc (cygwin/mingw/msys) |
| 13:33.50 | learner | narnia, okie dokie -- good luck again |
| 13:33.56 | learner | hopefully as good as last time |
| 13:33.59 | learner | or better |
| 13:45.20 | narnia | learner, luck has nothing to do with the illinois court system. the party who is able to bribe the officials usually wins. |
| 13:59.25 | narnia | learner, after 8+yrs of legal nightmare the opposing sides can still tie the case up on appeals. the opposing sides are hoping i die before the case ever gets out of appeals. |
| 14:34.39 | *** join/#brlcad pinnipedia (~dgreisen@cheney7.roaming.susx.ac.uk) |
| 14:36.00 | pinnipedia | hello Sean |
| 15:28.07 | *** join/#brlcad pinnipedia (~dgreisen@cheney7.roaming.susx.ac.uk) |
| 15:51.44 | *** part/#brlcad pinnipedia (~dgreisen@cheney7.roaming.susx.ac.uk) |
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| 16:39.28 | *** part/#brlcad Bagheera (~Grumbler@grumbler.bronze.supporter.pdpc) |
| 18:31.25 | archivist | I wonder who i am |
| 18:32.09 | brlcad | you get the build to work? |
| 18:32.37 | archivist | not yet its at home and im at work |
| 18:34.34 | archivist | just reading the db format for fun |
| 18:42.44 | brlcad | what's your particular interest in brl-cad? |
| 18:42.54 | brlcad | don't recall, are you a dev? |
| 18:45.53 | archivist | im interested as a mech designer, but have also been a software person as well, and i like open source, The company i am at could never afford a system like solid edge or solidworks etc |
| 18:47.04 | archivist | I have used solidworks so I am converted to 3d design |
| 18:48.12 | *** join/#brlcad Pimpinella (~frank@p54818B96.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 18:48.25 | archivist | I was in #c when you were looking for a dev some time ago, downloaded and looked at the source at the time |
| 19:06.01 | *** join/#brlcad pinnipedia (~dgreisen@cheney7.roaming.susx.ac.uk) |
| 19:06.50 | pinnipedia | hi Sean |
| 19:51.47 | brlcad | hello pinnipedia |
| 19:52.18 | pinnipedia | this is Daniel, we've been conversing on the sourceforge forum |
| 19:52.20 | brlcad | archivist: ahhh, ok |
| 19:52.26 | pinnipedia | thank you for your help |
| 19:52.43 | brlcad | apologies if I ask you again down the road.. lots of channels, lots of folks :) |
| 19:53.05 | brlcad | pinnipedia: hmm.. :) |
| 19:53.11 | pinnipedia | completely understandable |
| 19:53.42 | brlcad | your welcome, I think.. assuming i was actually helpful :) |
| 19:54.02 | pinnipedia | well, I got through most of the conflicts |
| 19:54.15 | brlcad | ahh, ping pong build craziness |
| 19:54.20 | brlcad | now i remember |
| 19:54.34 | brlcad | i'm really sorry about all of that.. should not be that many issues |
| 19:55.09 | brlcad | using the latest cvs would've helped, but you really should have been on the verge of it working |
| 19:55.37 | pinnipedia | As far as I can tell, the default Ubuntu install is short on most of the developer packages |
| 19:55.51 | pinnipedia | I even had to download gcc |
| 19:55.54 | brlcad | noticed :) |
| 19:56.30 | brlcad | okay, so you ended up with that last odd error after that last clean rebuild, right? |
| 19:56.35 | pinnipedia | yeah |
| 19:57.07 | brlcad | how can I help get it working for you? |
| 19:57.16 | brlcad | I can walk you through the steps from scratch |
| 19:57.22 | brlcad | we can continue where we left off |
| 19:57.31 | brlcad | I can perform the build remotely if you like |
| 19:57.55 | pinnipedia | I honestly don't have an informed opinion, I'm fairly new to the OS |
| 19:58.27 | brlcad | is your end goal to simply get a binary install? |
| 19:58.37 | pinnipedia | yes |
| 19:58.41 | brlcad | i.e. "just get it working"? |
| 19:58.44 | pinnipedia | yep |
| 19:58.53 | brlcad | okay, hardware specs? |
| 19:59.04 | brlcad | i.e. processor type |
| 19:59.18 | pinnipedia | Compaq Armada E500s laptop, Pentium III 650, 256MB RAM |
| 20:00.14 | brlcad | running linux |
| 20:00.17 | brlcad | which kernel? |
| 20:00.28 | brlcad | uname -a |
| 20:00.42 | pinnipedia | it's one of the 2.6.x's, I'll check for the exact revision |
| 20:01.24 | brlcad | that's good enough |
| 20:01.25 | pinnipedia | Linux betasigma 2.6.10-5-386 #1 Tue Apr 5 12:12:40 UTC 2005 i686 GNU/Linux |
| 20:02.06 | brlcad | i'll make a build for you of the latest on a 2.4 kernel just in case there are compatibility issues |
| 20:02.11 | brlcad | that should be a quick "test" |
| 20:02.18 | brlcad | if that fails, we can try a build |
| 20:02.26 | brlcad | give me about 15 minutes to get the build made |
| 20:02.44 | pinnipedia | ok, thanks |
| 20:03.05 | brlcad | out of curiosity, did you try the ia32 binary? |
| 20:03.20 | brlcad | not that I recommend it, it's a bit dated compared to the latest |
| 20:03.23 | brlcad | just wondering |
| 20:03.39 | pinnipedia | no |
| 20:03.59 | pinnipedia | Is that the 7.0 off of the sourceforge site? |
| 20:04.47 | brlcad | yes |
| 20:05.07 | pinnipedia | nope, I didn't install it |
| 20:05.15 | brlcad | k, no worries |
| 20:05.28 | brlcad | any problems getting into irc? :) |
| 20:06.03 | pinnipedia | nope |
| 20:34.28 | brlcad | alrighty, it's almost done building |
| 20:34.38 | pinnipedia | k |
| 20:35.52 | pinnipedia | I've been messing around, trying installing different packages. Nothing so far in getting past the compile error |
| 20:40.11 | brlcad | it sounds like it failed to create libbn, yet there is a stub file from the looks of the error |
| 20:40.31 | brlcad | while this is still building, try: cd src/libbn ; make |
| 20:41.20 | brlcad | does it report an error? if it does "nothing": rm libbn.la ; make |
| 20:41.58 | pinnipedia | it'll be a minute |
| 20:42.56 | pinnipedia | do I do ./autogen.sh and ./configure in the brlcad-7.2.2 directory or in src/libbn |
| 20:43.19 | brlcad | i suspect the "real" problem is that autogen.sh failed, which means one of the build tools is not installed or not up to date |
| 20:44.43 | pinnipedia | ubuntu didn't come with those, so I just kept installing what it asked for until it ran. In the end it needed: autoconf, automake, and libtool |
| 20:45.17 | brlcad | yep, what versions of those does autogen say you have? |
| 20:45.40 | brlcad | and does autogen.sh end with an error or say the build is ready? |
| 20:47.20 | pinnipedia | autoconf 2.59, automake 1.9.4, libtool 1.5.6 |
| 20:47.29 | pinnipedia | it says to run ./configure next |
| 20:47.37 | brlcad | no error lines? |
| 20:48.28 | pinnipedia | Found GNU Autoconf version 2.59 |
| 20:48.28 | pinnipedia | Found GNU Automake version 1.9.4 |
| 20:48.28 | pinnipedia | Found GNU Libtool version 1.5.6 |
| 20:48.28 | pinnipedia | Automatically preparing build ... need to restore backup of INSTALL |
| 20:48.28 | pinnipedia | done |
| 20:48.28 | pinnipedia | The BRL-CAD build system is now prepared. To build here, run: |
| 20:48.30 | pinnipedia | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:48.32 | pinnipedia | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:48.49 | brlcad | ahh, that's a mostly perfect autogen.sh |
| 20:48.52 | brlcad | so that's not it |
| 20:51.20 | pinnipedia | ./configure has a line about libbn: |
| 20:51.31 | pinnipedia | config.status: creating src/libbn/Makefile |
| 20:52.34 | pinnipedia | the results of running make in src/libbn: |
| 20:52.42 | pinnipedia | make all-am |
| 20:52.42 | pinnipedia | make[1]: Entering directory `/home/dgreisen/brlcad-7.2.2/src/libbn' |
| 20:52.42 | pinnipedia | make[1]: Nothing to be done for `all-am'. |
| 20:52.42 | pinnipedia | make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/dgreisen/brlcad-7.2.2/src/libbn' |
| 20:53.01 | brlcad | yeah, something stale in there |
| 20:53.10 | brlcad | cd src/libbn ; make clean ; make |
| 20:55.21 | pinnipedia | it's finished, don't see any errors |
| 20:58.41 | pinnipedia | do I try make again in the main directory, or run autogen and configure again first? |
| 20:59.22 | brlcad | no no.. |
| 20:59.58 | brlcad | no more autogen/configure, try: cd ../bwish |
| 21:00.02 | brlcad | make clean ; make |
| 21:01.00 | pinnipedia | done, no erros |
| 21:01.02 | pinnipedia | errors |
| 21:01.58 | brlcad | good, cd ../tclscripts ; make |
| 21:02.21 | pinnipedia | ../../src/bwish/btclsh ../../src/tclscripts/ampi.tcl ../../src/tclscripts |
| 21:02.21 | pinnipedia | /home/dgreisen/brlcad-7.2.2/src/bwish/.libs/lt-btclsh: error while loading shared libraries: libbn.so.19: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory |
| 21:02.21 | pinnipedia | make: *** [pkgIndex.tcl] Error 127 |
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| 21:03.04 | brlcad | hmm.., sounds like libtool is not doing what it should |
| 21:03.46 | brlcad | no matter, the binary build finished |
| 21:04.54 | brlcad | uploading |
| 21:05.00 | pinnipedia | thanks |
| 21:05.39 | brlcad | http://ftp.brlcad.org/tmp/BRL-CAD-7.2.3.bin.tar.gz |
| 21:05.58 | brlcad | sudo tar zxvf BRL-CAD-7.2.3.bin.tar.gz |
| 21:07.17 | pinnipedia | It'll be about 6:30 |
| 21:08.21 | brlcad | hours or minutes? |
| 21:08.32 | pinnipedia | minutes |
| 21:08.47 | brlcad | had me worried there for a sec :) |
| 21:10.06 | pinnipedia | I've been spoiled by university broadband. It doesn't really occur to me to think of download times in hours anymore |
| 21:15.32 | pinnipedia | does it matter where the file is? it's currently in my home directory? |
| 21:17.52 | brlcad | no, it doesn't/shouldn't |
| 21:17.52 | brlcad | it should expand into /usr/brlcad |
| 21:18.20 | pinnipedia | done |
| 21:18.25 | brlcad | great |
| 21:18.29 | brlcad | now to test it |
| 21:18.40 | brlcad | you use bash for a shell? |
| 21:18.50 | brlcad | you need to add /usr/brlcad/bin to your path |
| 21:19.02 | brlcad | export PATH=/usr/brlcad/bin:$PATH |
| 21:19.08 | pinnipedia | Gnome terminal, not sure which this is |
| 21:19.56 | brlcad | if you add that export line to your ~/.bash_profile then it will always load when you open up a new terminal |
| 21:20.09 | pinnipedia | it didn't install to /usr/brlcad, it installed to ~/usr/brlcad |
| 21:20.21 | brlcad | bah |
| 21:20.34 | brlcad | sudo mv ~/usr/brlcad /usr/. |
| 21:21.31 | pinnipedia | so now I type the export PATH... ? |
| 21:22.05 | brlcad | yes |
| 21:22.27 | pinnipedia | done |
| 21:22.46 | brlcad | okay, easy test.. just type "rt" |
| 21:22.52 | brlcad | what does it output? |
| 21:23.05 | pinnipedia | BRL-CAD Release 7.2.3 The BRL-CAD Raytracer RT |
| 21:23.05 | pinnipedia | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:23.05 | pinnipedia | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:23.05 | pinnipedia | BRL-CAD Release 7.2.3 The BRL-CAD Ray-Tracing Library |
| 21:23.05 | pinnipedia | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:23.40 | *** join/#brlcad pinnipedia (~dgreisen@cheney7.roaming.susx.ac.uk) |
| 21:23.44 | pinnipedia | it didn't like that copy/paste |
| 21:24.31 | brlcad | hehe, yes, you got kicked off :) |
| 21:24.54 | pinnipedia | a couple of lines about it being BRL-CAD and your email, then running on betasigma, then rt: MGED database not specified |
| 21:25.23 | pinnipedia | Usage: rt [options] model.g objects... |
| 21:25.23 | pinnipedia | Options: |
| 21:25.23 | pinnipedia | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:26.05 | pinnipedia | I was in /usr when I typed rt |
| 21:26.56 | pinnipedia | if I go into /usr/brlcad and type mged, the modelling window comes up |
| 21:32.26 | brlcad | excellent |
| 21:32.40 | brlcad | that was correct for rt too, it's just a usage message |
| 21:33.03 | brlcad | you don't need to be in /usr/brlcad to type mged, it's in your path so you just type "mged' from anywhere |
| 21:33.08 | *** join/#brlcad CIA-3 (~CIA@flapjack.navi.cx) |
| 21:33.19 | brlcad | that's where if you add that export line to you ~/.bash_profile, it will always be in your path |
| 21:34.04 | pinnipedia | yep, it works from everywhere |
| 21:34.56 | brlcad | if you want to see something mildly interesting, run the following in the gnome terminal: |
| 21:35.18 | brlcad | asc2g ~/brlcad-7.2.2/db/havoc.asc ~/havoc.g |
| 21:35.24 | brlcad | then in mged: |
| 21:35.46 | brlcad | opendb /home/dgreisen/havoc.g |
| 21:35.51 | brlcad | e havoc |
| 21:36.08 | brlcad | should see a vehicle |
| 21:37.20 | pinnipedia | neat |
| 21:37.38 | brlcad | there's a rather detailed introduction to mged available on the website: http://brlcad.org |
| 21:37.43 | brlcad | document #2 |
| 21:37.58 | pinnipedia | I got about half way through it on my old distro |
| 21:38.05 | pinnipedia | it looks like quite the program |
| 21:38.07 | brlcad | ahh, okay |
| 21:38.27 | brlcad | mged only scratches the surface of the entire package, but it's what most are interested in for the modeling |
| 21:39.16 | pinnipedia | I figure I'll become proficient in the modelling first :) |
| 21:40.13 | pinnipedia | I understand that the ballistics modelling is quite good |
| 21:40.38 | brlcad | the expert modelers around here are pretty impressive with it |
| 21:40.44 | brlcad | geometry just flows from them |
| 21:41.14 | brlcad | yeah, it'd be nice if we could share some of the really detailed models, but there's good reasons for why not |
| 21:41.15 | pinnipedia | do they mainly use the command line? |
| 21:41.27 | brlcad | it's a mix |
| 21:41.42 | brlcad | most use both to different degrees |
| 21:42.04 | brlcad | the new modeler will have a much improved gui interface, but that's years away from end-user use |
| 21:42.32 | brlcad | if you're more "gui inclined", you might be interested in the Tools -> Geometry Browser |
| 21:43.07 | pinnipedia | I'm a bit of both |
| 21:43.36 | pinnipedia | most of my 3d cad experience is on ProE, but I first learned on AutoCAD |
| 21:44.15 | pinnipedia | And then I've, unfortunately, had to do a fair bit of modelling in ANSYS, so that's almost all command line |
| 21:46.45 | pinnipedia | thank you very much for your help getting this up and running |
| 21:46.50 | brlcad | brl-cad's modeler is clearly not up to the user interface of pro/e or autocad, though we've had a mere fraction of the resources invested and very little justification for improving the user interface |
| 21:47.30 | brlcad | hard to fund the user interface when it's the raytracing library that is the bread and butter -- the modeler was usually "good enough" most of the time |
| 21:48.08 | brlcad | that is going to change now, though, that we're open source and able to work with the community as a project on our own |
| 21:49.00 | brlcad | no problem, apologies that it took up so much of your time trying to get it built. I'll have to get my hands on a fresh ubuntu system at some point to fix the dependancies. |
| 21:49.15 | pinnipedia | should be able to get some work done on the UI, I imagine that programming the UI is quite different from programming the physics backend |
| 21:49.36 | pinnipedia | not a problem, I've learned a lot in the process |
| 21:50.27 | brlcad | there's not a physics backend in brl-cad beyond light/energy transport, the modeler is all just mathematics and geometry |
| 21:59.44 | pinnipedia | well, thank you again for your help, I'm going to go and learn the program a bit more |
| 22:01.26 | brlcad | not a problem, I'm here most of the time if anything comes up |
| 22:01.33 | pinnipedia | thanks |
| 22:01.33 | brlcad | or feel free to just hang out |
| 22:03.08 | brlcad | also if you ask a question while I'm away, you can idle and i or someone else will answer it eventually |
| 22:08.12 | archivist | "new modeler" ? is there a wish list somewhere to comment on? |
| 22:22.47 | pinnipedia | I'm trying to import some other models to look at, by typing asc2g ~brlcad-7.2.2/db/cray.asc ~/cray.g buyt it's returning the error bash: asc2g: command not found |
| 23:00.02 | brlcad | pinnipedia: command not found means /usr/brlcad/bin is not in your path |
| 23:00.19 | brlcad | did you add the: export PATH=/usr/brlcad/bin:$PATH to your ~/.bash_profile file |
| 23:00.44 | brlcad | archivist: not yet |
| 23:01.26 | pinnipedia | yes, earlier I typed in export PATH... |
| 23:01.51 | archivist | ok tnks |
| 23:02.01 | pinnipedia | The asc2g command worked to import the havoc model |
| 23:02.41 | brlcad | right, but if you create a new gnome terminal, you'd have to type it again (unless you add it to ~/.bash_profile) |
| 23:02.50 | pinnipedia | ah, got it, thanks |
| 23:02.55 | brlcad | it doesn't "stick" .. unless you add it to that file |
| 23:05.45 | brlcad | archivist: feel free to post up your ideas or share them here -- much of it is likely being planned already in some fashion, but reinforcement of what's important to you is always good to hear |
| 23:08.33 | brlcad | unfortunately, going open source has actually delayed things quite a bit :) .. have to keep pressing on the build system and website some more before I'll be able to get back to it full steam |
| 23:10.03 | archivist | thers one thing a can't draw in solidworks a fusee (a clock part) which has a spiral/helix on a curved barrel |
| 23:11.02 | pinnipedia | thanks, it's working again |
| 23:14.31 | brlcad | archivist: got a picture? |
| 23:15.12 | brlcad | like this: |
| 23:15.13 | brlcad | http://www.clockguy.com/SiteRelated/SiteReferencePages/FuseeMovement.html |
| 23:17.20 | archivist | yes thats the part, i think it needs a new cut type as well (like a ball-end milled groove) |
| 23:20.10 | archivist | special machines were made to manufacture them, So nowadays a cnc could make it if a simple path could be designed in the cad system |
| 23:23.12 | *** join/#brlcad narnia (~terrylr@johann.blauedonau.com) |
| 23:25.28 | brlcad | that would be rather difficult to manufacture |
| 23:27.02 | brlcad | the basic shape looks like the inside bottom half of a toroidal surface, with a spiral grove added/subtracted |
| 23:28.16 | archivist | it should be easy with a rotating axis below a milling head, just that the spiral has to stop and then drill at the large end |
| 23:30.04 | archivist | the curve its on has to match the force from a spring to even out the torque delivered to the clock |
| 23:36.43 | archivist | one i'm working on, http://www.archivist.info/P3150762.JPG, it would have been nice to replace it, but with current methods it wont get done |
