irclog2html for blob on 2002.05.13

06:31:23seletzmorning
07:08:05mmattenmorning
13:23:28Russ|werk was last seen on #tuxscreen 1 days, 8 hours, 12 minutes and 32 seconds ago, saying: finally away [Sun May 12 06:10:56 2002]
13:23:28prpplagueibot: seen Russ|werk
13:23:36prpplaguemorning seletz
13:23:43prpplaguemorning mmatten
13:33:30seletzprpplague: hi
13:33:57seletzprpplague: silly question: is 1bpp possible using fbdev?
13:34:10seletzprpplague: black/white display
13:35:34prpplagueseletz: got a guess, if i tinker around with laying out a board using a sa-1100, how much you charge to look it over and tell what i did wrong?
13:35:49prpplagueis fbdev challenged
13:36:12prpplagueseletz: i've only used fbdev several times, and not up to date
13:36:48seletzprpplague: sorry, i dont get you here, could you please explain a little bit more in detail
13:36:52seletzconfused
13:37:19seletzprpplague: ahhh
13:37:35seletzprpplague: you want me to check your layout of a new board?
13:37:45seletzneeds coffee
13:38:49prpplagueseletz: ya i want to check the layout
13:39:11seletzprpplague: the layout or the schematics
13:40:01prpplagueseletz: the schematics at first
13:40:29prpplagueseletz: nothing commercial, just an educational project
13:40:32seletzprpplague: let the layout aside. Let the manufactorers do the layout. They know best how to do it
13:41:19seletzprpplague: well, i'd take the assabet and kill everything that is connected to gpio
13:41:41prpplagueseletz: the schematics for the assabet are open?
13:41:48seletzprpplague: ya.
13:42:09seletzprpplague: thats why there are so many assabet/neponset like boards
13:42:16prpplagueseletz: cool, didn't know that
13:42:31seletzprpplague: just take the schematics, even INTEL _wants_ you to do that
13:42:48prpplagueseletz: i've looked for an assabet board but haven't been able to find one
13:43:03prpplagueseletz: cool, i'll try harder
13:43:16seletzprpplague: you just neet the schematics. get the PDF from the LART site.
13:43:36seletzprpplague: btw, the LART has schematics too. But it's a Sa1100 i think
13:43:54seletzprpplague: IIRC erik has put the PDFs on his site.
13:44:19seletzprpplague: INTEL managed to hide them deep in their web server's bowels
13:47:06prpplagueseletz: great!
13:47:47prpplagueseletz: i hate to sound like a newbie, but you gotta ask some silly questions sometimes, lol
13:48:46seletzprpplague: thats why i said: the schematics are no problem really. The board manufactoring is, because of BGA chips/layout.
13:49:45seletzprpplague: and thats the problem of my "initial costs", because BGA is expensive to manufacture boards with (fine pitch, multilayer. Have to x-ray PCBs and so forth).
13:54:19prpplagueseletz: ya thats what i've found out
13:55:05seletzprpplague: you consider really funding by yourself
13:55:07seletz?
13:56:08prpplagueseletz: for the "hack kit" ya
13:57:32seletzprpplague: well. Why not throw our bits together?
13:58:10prpplagueseletz: what did you have in mind?
13:58:53seletzprpplague: loose cooperation. make a board. fund together. sell them to various ppl (hack kit, routers, etc).
13:59:03seletzprpplague: increase # of units
13:59:08seletzprpplague: lower price
13:59:51seletzprpplague: i have at last 2 other people here willing to fund if i can show them some future in selling boards
14:00:05seletzprpplague: fund and work, that is
14:00:08prpplagueseletz: cool, sounds good
14:00:22seletzprpplague: hackers, not buzzword speakers
14:01:24prpplagueseletz: got commute to the office, bbl
15:38:17prpplagueseletz: ok back
15:49:50mmattenhi prpplague
16:01:16prpplaguemmatten: so whats cookin this morning?
16:03:05mmattenhmmm the morning is over and i'm goin home :)
16:03:56prpplaguemmatten: hmm, can i go home too? i just got to work
16:04:54mmattenyou can try :) all you need is to convince the boss the US has adapted to european timezones and we now have 18:00 worldwide
16:05:01mmattenshould not be much of a problem :)
16:05:07prpplaguelol, don't think it'll happen
16:05:47prpplagueseletz / mmatten : has anyone done work on fault tolerant boot loading using blob
16:07:18mmattennope
16:07:33mmattenleaving now :) have a nice day
16:07:38prpplaguemmatten: later
16:08:27seletz was last seen on #blob 2 hours, 8 minutes and 5 seconds ago, saying: prpplague: hackers, not buzzword speakers [Mon May 13 15:00:22 2002]
16:08:27prpplagueibot: seen seletz
16:08:29seletzprpplague: define fault tolerant
16:08:36prpplagueseletz: there you are.....
16:08:44seletzprpplague: sorry, coding
16:09:18seletzprpplague: my system is fault tolerant, because the system itself is RO
16:09:24prpplagueseletz: i.e. if blob images was corrupted or just plain broke, there would be some inital code that would allow to reload the blob image
16:09:46seletzprpplague: hmm
16:10:03seletzprpplague: blob is the boot loader. If blob is corrup, you loose.
16:10:38seletzprpplague: you mena: iyou run linux and discover a corrupt blob image while still running?
16:10:52seletzrglmpfg
16:10:59seletzs/mena/mean/
16:11:18prpplagueseletz: on the inhand ELF board, i've got a primary boot app that jumps to blob, but i can also interupt the jump to blob and do a reload of blob
16:11:53seletzprpplague: grab md5sum, do a md5sum check and compare
16:12:23seletzprpplague: but why do you care? IMHO if this fails, then you're hosed anyway...
16:12:37seletzprpplague: you could lock the flash
16:12:56prpplagueseletz: true, but ppl could not upgrade their blob if we did that
16:13:21prpplagueseletz: i was thinkin something like -
16:13:22seletzprpplague: sure they can. unlock->update->check->lock
16:13:49prpplagueseletz: true, but that also brings in the chance of a bad blob upgrade
16:13:53seletzprpplague: <plug>look at my CF sysupd command</plug>
16:14:06prpplagueseletz: i'll check it out
16:14:14prpplague1. jump to 0x0
16:14:15seletzprpplague: that's why you check _after_ flash
16:14:40seletzprpplague: and after download. check those md5 sums with a supplied one, i.e.
16:14:45prpplague2. if gpio1=1 then blob_reload()
16:14:52prpplague3. else boot_blob()
16:15:36seletzprpplague: sorry, whats the diff between blob_reload() and flashing blob?
16:15:51seletzprpplague: i meant you'd xmodem upload blob ...
16:16:32seletzprpplague: btw, sysupd is in src/blob/system3.c
16:16:32prpplagueseletz: sorry should have use better naming blob_reload() = blob_flash()
16:16:46seletzprpplague: ok, then i'd do:
16:16:46prpplagueseletz: pulling it down now
16:17:00seletz1) xmodem dl blob image
16:17:10seletz2) check image md5 sum in ram
16:17:20seletz3) if !match error
16:17:28seletz4) flash blob image
16:17:39seletz5) check md5sum flash area
16:18:02prpplagueseletz: what if the blob code is just plain broke?
16:18:33seletzprpplague: you could of course have a known-good blob in a separate partition.
16:18:42seletzprpplague: rescue-blob.
16:19:05seletzprpplague: thus if gpiox=1 then use secure blob
16:19:18seletzs/secure/known-good/
16:19:26prpplagueseletz: hmm, good idea
16:19:29seletzprpplague: and _never_ update the secure one
16:19:36prpplagueseletz: and lockit
16:19:48seletzprpplague: actually quite easy to do now
16:20:09seletzprpplague: just define default partitions and add one blob partition
16:20:46seletzprpplague: and then chain-boot to the second one
16:20:54seletzprpplague: update only the second one
16:21:04seletzprpplague: chain-boot only when gpio _not_ set
16:21:17prpplagueseletz: ok cool, that will solve one of my concerns on "hack kit"
16:21:25seletzprpplague: lock first one, update only second one
16:21:47seletzprpplague: well, the hack kit will contain JTAG, no?
16:21:55seletzprpplague: youre save then.
16:22:26seletzprpplague: and the base system should be a RO cramfs with initrd. So losers can reset and poweroff anytime.
16:22:58seletzprpplague: supply a CF socket and you're set.
16:23:18seletzprpplague: or even better: do plain IO to an IDE harddisk
16:23:25seletzprpplague: simple
16:23:42seletzprpplague: that's how my board works.
16:23:57seletzprpplague: it _will_ have only losers no real users.
16:24:23seletzprpplague: therefore i'll keep it stupid simple and read-only.
16:24:48prpplagueseletz: yes, the "hack kit" should have a jtag, but i see it being used in educational enviroment where they might destroy the blob image
16:25:05prpplagueseletz: i spoke to several educators over the weekend about the hack kit
16:25:18seletzprpplague: no problem, just re-flash it using jtag?
16:25:34seletzprpplague: well? What do they say?
16:26:09prpplagueseletz: extremely interested, but had questions like the blob flash question
16:26:28prpplagueseletz: looks like it'll be a big seller if we can get it together
16:27:15seletzprpplague: they simply cant destroy the board via software IMHO (unless the flash wears)
16:27:37seletzprpplague: once you have JTAG you can always rescue it
16:30:03prpplagueseletz: ya they were just concerned with spending alot of time recovering using JTAG
16:30:11prpplagueseletz: just a though anyway
16:30:30prpplagueseletz: so would you suggest including a jtag dongle in every box?
16:30:42seletzno dongle
16:31:03seletzprpplague: just document it and make the pins easy accessible
16:31:22seletzprpplague: make it optional. The'll need only one
16:31:38seletzprpplague: they can solder one
16:32:35seletzprpplague: i would put almost nothing into the box except a CD with docs and the board.
16:32:46seletzprpplague: not even an ac adaptor
16:33:20seletzprpplague: the'll use power supplies they already have
16:33:22prpplagueseletz: hmmm, don't think that would go well here, thats what these guys hate about the current kits
16:33:33seletzprpplague: ah, ok
16:33:47prpplagueseletz: they want to open the box and be ready to start learning
16:33:53seletzprpplague: anyway, those comonents are _cheap_
16:34:04seletzprpplague: also ok
16:34:39seletzprpplague: hacking up some kit specs?
16:35:26seletzprpplague: hmm, my CF update process will fit in very well ...
16:35:49seletzprpplague: just ship them a CF card with the system image on it
16:36:07seletzprpplague: image={blob, cramfs, initrd, kernel}
16:37:22seletzuargh
16:37:26seletzSIGGIRLFRIEND
16:37:31seletz:(
16:37:50prpplagueseletz: later
16:37:57seletzprpplague: see ya
16:58:00Russ|werkmorning prpplague
16:58:11prpplagueRuss|werk: morning
16:58:20prpplagueRuss|werk: get my message about the package?
17:01:24Russ|werkthat they just sent it out the other day?
17:02:02prpplagueRuss|werk: ya, we have sub-humans working in shipping
17:02:39prpplaguei have to communicate with them in grunts and pictagrams
17:04:48prpplagueRuss|werk: you get moved?
19:08:28Russ|werkyup
20:31:10prpplagueRuss|werk: i don;t know if i said, but i did include a tcsx-1 mb for you to play with
21:15:51Russ|werkyou did
21:16:03Russ|werkits too bad for that shipping snafu
21:16:52prpplagueRuss|werk: ya, we have a lot of problems with our low pay shipping department
21:17:47prpplagueRuss|werk: anyway, i'm doing a write up on the camion for linuxdevices.com, if you get anywhere with it very soon, i can include your info as well
21:19:38Russ|werkk
21:22:03prpplagueRuss|werk: both units are yours to keep
21:26:48prpplagueBZFlag: you guys done anything with smaller lcd panel such as 128x64 and 240x64?
22:37:54BZFlagprpplague: I have not. sharp has a smaller panel on the iris. might be 240x192 or something? I don't recall.
22:38:30prpplagueBZFlag: ok thanks
22:48:05prpplagueBZFlag: btw, how ya handling the new job?
23:01:59prpplaguewell, i'm headed home, bbl
23:02:11prpplagueRuss|werk: thanks again for the help
23:02:28prpplagueRuss|werk: let me know if you want more computer toys

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