06:31:23 | seletz | morning |
07:08:05 | mmatten | morning |
13:23:28 | | Russ|werk was last seen on #tuxscreen 1 days, 8 hours, 12 minutes and 32 seconds ago, saying: finally away [Sun May 12 06:10:56 2002] |
13:23:28 | prpplague | ibot: seen Russ|werk |
13:23:36 | prpplague | morning seletz |
13:23:43 | prpplague | morning mmatten |
13:33:30 | seletz | prpplague: hi |
13:33:57 | seletz | prpplague: silly question: is 1bpp possible using fbdev? |
13:34:10 | seletz | prpplague: black/white display |
13:35:34 | prpplague | seletz: got a guess, if i tinker around with laying out a board using a sa-1100, how much you charge to look it over and tell what i did wrong? |
13:35:49 | prpplague | is fbdev challenged |
13:36:12 | prpplague | seletz: i've only used fbdev several times, and not up to date |
13:36:48 | seletz | prpplague: sorry, i dont get you here, could you please explain a little bit more in detail |
13:36:52 | seletz | confused |
13:37:19 | seletz | prpplague: ahhh |
13:37:35 | seletz | prpplague: you want me to check your layout of a new board? |
13:37:45 | seletz | needs coffee |
13:38:49 | prpplague | seletz: ya i want to check the layout |
13:39:11 | seletz | prpplague: the layout or the schematics |
13:40:01 | prpplague | seletz: the schematics at first |
13:40:29 | prpplague | seletz: nothing commercial, just an educational project |
13:40:32 | seletz | prpplague: let the layout aside. Let the manufactorers do the layout. They know best how to do it |
13:41:19 | seletz | prpplague: well, i'd take the assabet and kill everything that is connected to gpio |
13:41:41 | prpplague | seletz: the schematics for the assabet are open? |
13:41:48 | seletz | prpplague: ya. |
13:42:09 | seletz | prpplague: thats why there are so many assabet/neponset like boards |
13:42:16 | prpplague | seletz: cool, didn't know that |
13:42:31 | seletz | prpplague: just take the schematics, even INTEL _wants_ you to do that |
13:42:48 | prpplague | seletz: i've looked for an assabet board but haven't been able to find one |
13:43:03 | prpplague | seletz: cool, i'll try harder |
13:43:16 | seletz | prpplague: you just neet the schematics. get the PDF from the LART site. |
13:43:36 | seletz | prpplague: btw, the LART has schematics too. But it's a Sa1100 i think |
13:43:54 | seletz | prpplague: IIRC erik has put the PDFs on his site. |
13:44:19 | seletz | prpplague: INTEL managed to hide them deep in their web server's bowels |
13:47:06 | prpplague | seletz: great! |
13:47:47 | prpplague | seletz: i hate to sound like a newbie, but you gotta ask some silly questions sometimes, lol |
13:48:46 | seletz | prpplague: thats why i said: the schematics are no problem really. The board manufactoring is, because of BGA chips/layout. |
13:49:45 | seletz | prpplague: and thats the problem of my "initial costs", because BGA is expensive to manufacture boards with (fine pitch, multilayer. Have to x-ray PCBs and so forth). |
13:54:19 | prpplague | seletz: ya thats what i've found out |
13:55:05 | seletz | prpplague: you consider really funding by yourself |
13:55:07 | seletz | ? |
13:56:08 | prpplague | seletz: for the "hack kit" ya |
13:57:32 | seletz | prpplague: well. Why not throw our bits together? |
13:58:10 | prpplague | seletz: what did you have in mind? |
13:58:53 | seletz | prpplague: loose cooperation. make a board. fund together. sell them to various ppl (hack kit, routers, etc). |
13:59:03 | seletz | prpplague: increase # of units |
13:59:08 | seletz | prpplague: lower price |
13:59:51 | seletz | prpplague: i have at last 2 other people here willing to fund if i can show them some future in selling boards |
14:00:05 | seletz | prpplague: fund and work, that is |
14:00:08 | prpplague | seletz: cool, sounds good |
14:00:22 | seletz | prpplague: hackers, not buzzword speakers |
14:01:24 | prpplague | seletz: got commute to the office, bbl |
15:38:17 | prpplague | seletz: ok back |
15:49:50 | mmatten | hi prpplague |
16:01:16 | prpplague | mmatten: so whats cookin this morning? |
16:03:05 | mmatten | hmmm the morning is over and i'm goin home :) |
16:03:56 | prpplague | mmatten: hmm, can i go home too? i just got to work |
16:04:54 | mmatten | you can try :) all you need is to convince the boss the US has adapted to european timezones and we now have 18:00 worldwide |
16:05:01 | mmatten | should not be much of a problem :) |
16:05:07 | prpplague | lol, don't think it'll happen |
16:05:47 | prpplague | seletz / mmatten : has anyone done work on fault tolerant boot loading using blob |
16:07:18 | mmatten | nope |
16:07:33 | mmatten | leaving now :) have a nice day |
16:07:38 | prpplague | mmatten: later |
16:08:27 | | seletz was last seen on #blob 2 hours, 8 minutes and 5 seconds ago, saying: prpplague: hackers, not buzzword speakers [Mon May 13 15:00:22 2002] |
16:08:27 | prpplague | ibot: seen seletz |
16:08:29 | seletz | prpplague: define fault tolerant |
16:08:36 | prpplague | seletz: there you are..... |
16:08:44 | seletz | prpplague: sorry, coding |
16:09:18 | seletz | prpplague: my system is fault tolerant, because the system itself is RO |
16:09:24 | prpplague | seletz: i.e. if blob images was corrupted or just plain broke, there would be some inital code that would allow to reload the blob image |
16:09:46 | seletz | prpplague: hmm |
16:10:03 | seletz | prpplague: blob is the boot loader. If blob is corrup, you loose. |
16:10:38 | seletz | prpplague: you mena: iyou run linux and discover a corrupt blob image while still running? |
16:10:52 | seletz | rglmpfg |
16:10:59 | seletz | s/mena/mean/ |
16:11:18 | prpplague | seletz: on the inhand ELF board, i've got a primary boot app that jumps to blob, but i can also interupt the jump to blob and do a reload of blob |
16:11:53 | seletz | prpplague: grab md5sum, do a md5sum check and compare |
16:12:23 | seletz | prpplague: but why do you care? IMHO if this fails, then you're hosed anyway... |
16:12:37 | seletz | prpplague: you could lock the flash |
16:12:56 | prpplague | seletz: true, but ppl could not upgrade their blob if we did that |
16:13:21 | prpplague | seletz: i was thinkin something like - |
16:13:22 | seletz | prpplague: sure they can. unlock->update->check->lock |
16:13:49 | prpplague | seletz: true, but that also brings in the chance of a bad blob upgrade |
16:13:53 | seletz | prpplague: <plug>look at my CF sysupd command</plug> |
16:14:06 | prpplague | seletz: i'll check it out |
16:14:14 | prpplague | 1. jump to 0x0 |
16:14:15 | seletz | prpplague: that's why you check _after_ flash |
16:14:40 | seletz | prpplague: and after download. check those md5 sums with a supplied one, i.e. |
16:14:45 | prpplague | 2. if gpio1=1 then blob_reload() |
16:14:52 | prpplague | 3. else boot_blob() |
16:15:36 | seletz | prpplague: sorry, whats the diff between blob_reload() and flashing blob? |
16:15:51 | seletz | prpplague: i meant you'd xmodem upload blob ... |
16:16:32 | seletz | prpplague: btw, sysupd is in src/blob/system3.c |
16:16:32 | prpplague | seletz: sorry should have use better naming blob_reload() = blob_flash() |
16:16:46 | seletz | prpplague: ok, then i'd do: |
16:16:46 | prpplague | seletz: pulling it down now |
16:17:00 | seletz | 1) xmodem dl blob image |
16:17:10 | seletz | 2) check image md5 sum in ram |
16:17:20 | seletz | 3) if !match error |
16:17:28 | seletz | 4) flash blob image |
16:17:39 | seletz | 5) check md5sum flash area |
16:18:02 | prpplague | seletz: what if the blob code is just plain broke? |
16:18:33 | seletz | prpplague: you could of course have a known-good blob in a separate partition. |
16:18:42 | seletz | prpplague: rescue-blob. |
16:19:05 | seletz | prpplague: thus if gpiox=1 then use secure blob |
16:19:18 | seletz | s/secure/known-good/ |
16:19:26 | prpplague | seletz: hmm, good idea |
16:19:29 | seletz | prpplague: and _never_ update the secure one |
16:19:36 | prpplague | seletz: and lockit |
16:19:48 | seletz | prpplague: actually quite easy to do now |
16:20:09 | seletz | prpplague: just define default partitions and add one blob partition |
16:20:46 | seletz | prpplague: and then chain-boot to the second one |
16:20:54 | seletz | prpplague: update only the second one |
16:21:04 | seletz | prpplague: chain-boot only when gpio _not_ set |
16:21:17 | prpplague | seletz: ok cool, that will solve one of my concerns on "hack kit" |
16:21:25 | seletz | prpplague: lock first one, update only second one |
16:21:47 | seletz | prpplague: well, the hack kit will contain JTAG, no? |
16:21:55 | seletz | prpplague: youre save then. |
16:22:26 | seletz | prpplague: and the base system should be a RO cramfs with initrd. So losers can reset and poweroff anytime. |
16:22:58 | seletz | prpplague: supply a CF socket and you're set. |
16:23:18 | seletz | prpplague: or even better: do plain IO to an IDE harddisk |
16:23:25 | seletz | prpplague: simple |
16:23:42 | seletz | prpplague: that's how my board works. |
16:23:57 | seletz | prpplague: it _will_ have only losers no real users. |
16:24:23 | seletz | prpplague: therefore i'll keep it stupid simple and read-only. |
16:24:48 | prpplague | seletz: yes, the "hack kit" should have a jtag, but i see it being used in educational enviroment where they might destroy the blob image |
16:25:05 | prpplague | seletz: i spoke to several educators over the weekend about the hack kit |
16:25:18 | seletz | prpplague: no problem, just re-flash it using jtag? |
16:25:34 | seletz | prpplague: well? What do they say? |
16:26:09 | prpplague | seletz: extremely interested, but had questions like the blob flash question |
16:26:28 | prpplague | seletz: looks like it'll be a big seller if we can get it together |
16:27:15 | seletz | prpplague: they simply cant destroy the board via software IMHO (unless the flash wears) |
16:27:37 | seletz | prpplague: once you have JTAG you can always rescue it |
16:30:03 | prpplague | seletz: ya they were just concerned with spending alot of time recovering using JTAG |
16:30:11 | prpplague | seletz: just a though anyway |
16:30:30 | prpplague | seletz: so would you suggest including a jtag dongle in every box? |
16:30:42 | seletz | no dongle |
16:31:03 | seletz | prpplague: just document it and make the pins easy accessible |
16:31:22 | seletz | prpplague: make it optional. The'll need only one |
16:31:38 | seletz | prpplague: they can solder one |
16:32:35 | seletz | prpplague: i would put almost nothing into the box except a CD with docs and the board. |
16:32:46 | seletz | prpplague: not even an ac adaptor |
16:33:20 | seletz | prpplague: the'll use power supplies they already have |
16:33:22 | prpplague | seletz: hmmm, don't think that would go well here, thats what these guys hate about the current kits |
16:33:33 | seletz | prpplague: ah, ok |
16:33:47 | prpplague | seletz: they want to open the box and be ready to start learning |
16:33:53 | seletz | prpplague: anyway, those comonents are _cheap_ |
16:34:04 | seletz | prpplague: also ok |
16:34:39 | seletz | prpplague: hacking up some kit specs? |
16:35:26 | seletz | prpplague: hmm, my CF update process will fit in very well ... |
16:35:49 | seletz | prpplague: just ship them a CF card with the system image on it |
16:36:07 | seletz | prpplague: image={blob, cramfs, initrd, kernel} |
16:37:22 | seletz | uargh |
16:37:26 | seletz | SIGGIRLFRIEND |
16:37:31 | seletz | :( |
16:37:50 | prpplague | seletz: later |
16:37:57 | seletz | prpplague: see ya |
16:58:00 | Russ|werk | morning prpplague |
16:58:11 | prpplague | Russ|werk: morning |
16:58:20 | prpplague | Russ|werk: get my message about the package? |
17:01:24 | Russ|werk | that they just sent it out the other day? |
17:02:02 | prpplague | Russ|werk: ya, we have sub-humans working in shipping |
17:02:39 | prpplague | i have to communicate with them in grunts and pictagrams |
17:04:48 | prpplague | Russ|werk: you get moved? |
19:08:28 | Russ|werk | yup |
20:31:10 | prpplague | Russ|werk: i don;t know if i said, but i did include a tcsx-1 mb for you to play with |
21:15:51 | Russ|werk | you did |
21:16:03 | Russ|werk | its too bad for that shipping snafu |
21:16:52 | prpplague | Russ|werk: ya, we have a lot of problems with our low pay shipping department |
21:17:47 | prpplague | Russ|werk: anyway, i'm doing a write up on the camion for linuxdevices.com, if you get anywhere with it very soon, i can include your info as well |
21:19:38 | Russ|werk | k |
21:22:03 | prpplague | Russ|werk: both units are yours to keep |
21:26:48 | prpplague | BZFlag: you guys done anything with smaller lcd panel such as 128x64 and 240x64? |
22:37:54 | BZFlag | prpplague: I have not. sharp has a smaller panel on the iris. might be 240x192 or something? I don't recall. |
22:38:30 | prpplague | BZFlag: ok thanks |
22:48:05 | prpplague | BZFlag: btw, how ya handling the new job? |
23:01:59 | prpplague | well, i'm headed home, bbl |
23:02:11 | prpplague | Russ|werk: thanks again for the help |
23:02:28 | prpplague | Russ|werk: let me know if you want more computer toys |