irclog2html for blob on 2002.04.18

02:33:32prpplaguehowdy jeffrey_
02:35:32prpplagueknee how Sammy
02:35:59Sammyhello prpplague :)
02:36:10prpplagueSammy: hows life in tawain?
02:36:12Sammyanything new ?
02:36:18prpplaguesame stuff
02:36:40prpplaguetoo much work, too little pay, too little time to play with linux
02:36:54Sammyfine but raining all day :'-(
02:37:27prpplaguei got a box of nice green tea in from tapei last week
02:38:08Sammyreally ? you drink tea ?
02:39:28prpplagueSammy: i enjoy it occasionaly, its hard to get good tea in texas
02:40:15Sammyif that so , everytime  you need , you can tell me , I'll buy what you need and sent it to you :)
02:40:45prpplaguegreat
03:35:07prpplagueyou alive seletz_home?
03:35:36Russ|werkI like debugging x86 bootloaders, its much more fun than plain old segfaults
03:35:47Russ|werkthe screen turns pretty colors and it reboots instead
03:36:20prpplaguelol
03:36:42prpplagueRuss: hey what's your sa-1100 board going to be for again?
03:36:54Russ|werkfirewall/NAT
03:37:21prpplagueRuss: all your design?
03:37:38Russ|werkya
03:38:05Russ|werkI origianally was going to just make a dual ethernet board for LART, and use larts, but after designing the board
03:38:19Russ|werkI discovered that I could not obtain the flash required to build a lart
03:38:39prpplagueRuss|werk: nice
03:38:56Russ|werkso I designed my own sa1100 board with TSOP flash instead, but its still compatible with the previously designed ethernet board
03:38:57prpplagueRuss|werk: i guess i'm just a arm wannabie
03:39:23Russ|werkso its very "lart-like", but all surface mount, missing the low speed connectors, and different flash
03:39:56prpplagueRuss|werk: sounds pretty cool
03:40:17prpplagueRuss|werk: you find it easier to work with the sa-1100 than the sa-1110?
03:42:01Russ|werkwell, I don't know anything about BGA
03:42:09Russ|werkand I didn't start knowing anything about board design
03:42:25Russ|werkQFP is more forgiving
03:42:36prpplagueya thats what i hear
03:42:50Russ|werkif I did a redesign, I would make everything BGA though, CPU, flash, DRAM
03:42:59prpplaguei'm having problem finding anyone that will sell me sa-1100 chips though
03:43:34Russ|werkI didn't double check all the tied signals (active low vs active high) on the first three, and I accidently tied BATT_FAULT and POWER_FAULT high
03:43:44Russ|werkbut because it was QFP, I could make a fixb
03:44:56prpplagueRuss|werk: hmm, what kind $$ are you looking at per proto board?
03:46:07Russ|werkwith the first three, it was $3000 each, but that was overpriced
03:46:20Russ|werkI think the run of 25 is $400 apiece
03:46:22prpplagueouch
03:46:39prpplague$400 is not bad
03:47:00prpplagueis that the triad company doing the board and assembly?
03:47:03Russ|werkya
03:47:14Russ|werkwell, they had the pcbs made elsewhere
03:47:51prpplagueRuss|werk: don't suppose your writing up "Russ's do's and don'ts of SA board design" ????
06:53:51hugendublgood morning
07:24:15mmattenmorning
08:34:37seletzmogääään!
14:13:36seletzprpplague: hi
14:14:53prpplaguemorning
14:42:08prpplagueseletz: whats the most expensive part of the cpu module we've been discussing?
14:50:55seletzprpplague: hi, sorry for the delay, quite busy now :)
14:51:25seletzprpplague: the PCB production and assembly
14:52:00seletzprpplague: IIRC, that is
14:52:40seletzprpplague: HW parts: SA1110, Flash RAM, SDRAM in that order
14:53:54seletzprpplague: OK i looked it up, PCB assembly and production comes next to the FLASH rams
14:57:23prpplagueseletz: ok is the cost of the pcb higher due to size and layers?
14:58:12seletzprpplague: The costs are based on a 6-layer 75x75mm^2 PCB
14:58:42seletzprpplague: but really th order is: SA1110, Flash RAM, PCB, SDRAM, Connectors
14:59:24seletzprpplague: all prices are calculated on an 1000 units base, though. Don't forget that.
15:00:43seletzreviving 2.5.x kernel CVS :(
15:30:45prpplagueseletz: just out of curiosity, what would something like this - http://www.newmicros.com/index2.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newmicros.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fstore%2Forder.cgi%3Fform%3Dprod_detail%26part%3D8051-SPCL%26id%3Db11En8avw6RV7OM4C6B281IUrKL2Ke06
15:30:57prpplagueseletz: cost using an ar processor?
15:31:14seletzlooking
15:32:04prpplagueseletz: i know thats a 8051 board, but i've used that one before and i really like the layout
15:35:43seletzprpplague: well, remember my email. The Base board for evaluating and testing the CPU core module just looks like a big experimental area.
15:36:24seletzprpplague: the "base board" just has: power connector, small dc regulator, sockets for CPU board.
15:36:45prpplagueseletz: ya i know, i'm just thinking out load, i'm wondering if making the overall board bigger with less layers would make the board cheaper
15:36:56seletzprpplague: and is build based on an experimental board (rapid prototyping board)
15:38:17seletzprpplague: maybe, most probably. But i dont think that the effect is worth the cost reduction IMHO
15:39:30seletzprpplague: the basic idea was to have a CPU board which can be extended through different base boards (and thus keeping the CPU board small and general, thus minimizing re-design costs if customer's wishes change).
15:39:58seletzprpplague: the base board could be a cheap design (single layer even)
15:40:38prpplagueseletz: true, and i'm still convinced of that, however i've got this thing rattling around in my brain about a low cost dev board
15:40:56seletzprpplague: One cant have a CPU board with a "cheap" design. Think memory timing, signal integrity and so on. The base board can, though.
15:41:31prpplagueseletz: again, thinking out loud, what would it take make a large arm based board that would cost $100USD ?
15:42:04seletzprpplague: large number of units, basically.
15:42:09prpplagueseletz: hmmmm
15:42:35prpplagueseletz: your just no fun today
15:42:38seletzprpplague: bear in mint that we calculated a different thing, though
15:43:13prpplagueseletz: ya i know, this is really two seperate items, one is work, the other is personal
15:43:46prpplagueseletz: i'd consider funding a project myself
15:44:10seletzprpplague: the thing is: Once you have a BGA chip, one can't have "cheap" PCB design. PCB design, setup costs and production/assembly limits the price.
15:44:35seletzprpplague: well, once you consider that (i did too), you first have to thik about:
15:45:27seletzprpplague: 1) PCB design setup, production and assembly. Maybe you want a tested board (BGA => PCB X-Ray)
15:45:39prpplagueseletz: what about using another arm core other than SA?
15:45:46seletzprpplague: 2) HW pars cost
15:45:56seletzprpplague: no idea, honestly.
15:46:57seletzprpplague: initial costs of the PCB we calculated (desig, setup) are about $20.000.-
15:47:08prpplagueseletz: hmm, maybe we can talk more at OLS, i hate to take up your time on a personal ambition
15:47:20seletzprpplague: no problem
15:48:20prpplagueseletz: i'd just don't understand why more companies like intrisync and adds don't make cheaper board for experimentors
15:48:42seletzprpplague: really, i also thought: "Damn, why not just get this into producteon and think about selling it later?"
15:48:54prpplagueseletz: have you ever used a "stamp" processor?
15:49:31prpplagueseletz: i'd hate for you to spend time on it, and then mangement on my end shot it down
15:49:48seletzprpplague: i really thought about financing the initial costs by myself and just produce a few boars. But that's impossible ATM
15:50:14seletz_ugh
15:50:19seletz_NETWORK HICCUPS
15:50:31seletz_(sorry for yelling)
15:51:48prpplaguenp
15:52:01prpplagueseletz: have you ever used a "stamp" processor?
15:52:24seletz_prpplague: no, sorry.
15:52:52prpplaguehttp://www.parallaxinc.com/
15:52:53seletz_prpplague: whats this rumour about our project and JDB?
15:53:17prpplagueseletz_: erikm said jdb might be interested in the project
15:53:45prpplagueseletz_: he was interested in doing the same type of design(i.e. sa-1110 core board)
15:54:28seletz_eeek
15:54:29seletz_basic
15:54:42prpplaguelol
15:55:06prpplaguethe deal is that those are the electronic hobbyists hot item
15:55:16prpplagueeveryone here in the states uses them
15:55:18seletz_whats a "polled interrupt"?
15:55:24seletz_IRQ or no IRQ?
15:55:29prpplagueeven the local wal-mart carries them
15:55:49prpplagueseletz_: no irq, but can use one of the gpio's for irq
15:55:51seletz_well, thats cool
15:56:13seletz_coll little devices, really.
15:56:24prpplagueseletz_: point is, i'd love to see an arm/linux board that hits the market in the same way
15:57:32seletz_Well, probably they sell tenth of thousands units
15:58:57prpplagueseletz_: yes i'm sure they do, but they didn
15:59:02prpplaguet start that way
16:00:49seletzprpplague: hmm, i guess they sell because of two main points: 1) they're cheap 2) and easy to use
16:01:03prpplagueseletz: exactly
16:01:22seletzprpplague:keep (1) away just for the moment
16:01:57seletzprpplague: do you think that (2) is really doable with an linux system?
16:02:44prpplagueseletz: yes, i do, with a nice basic install, and good documentation, i think it would be great for experimentors and for linux newbies
16:03:31seletzprpplague: you most probably want to have "professional" users
16:03:41seletzgrr
16:03:51seletzsorry phone
16:03:53prpplaguenp
16:19:13seletzback
16:19:59seletzprpplague: i really meant: you probably get more "professional" or "semi-professional" users. Most people are scared of Unix and Linux.
16:20:20prpplagueseletz: i know, but thats just because they don't know about it
16:21:18seletzprpplague: yes, i know that :) Hen and egg problem here....
16:21:24prpplagueseletz: yep
16:21:47prpplagueseletz: i guess i'm a little idealist today
16:22:22seletzprpplague: dont mis-unnderstand me here: i absolutely _want_ such a deviche, like you. And i believe that its possible to get linux there, now.
16:22:54seletzprpplague: If i had a million $ .....
16:23:10seletzprpplague: ok, say $100k
16:23:16prpplagueseletz: ya i say that often as well
16:23:59seletzprpplague: on top of my wish-list: 1) show those nay-sayers what real Linux power is
16:24:04seletzprpplague: 2) see 1
16:24:08prpplaguelol
16:24:53seletzprpplague: but hey: i'm sitting here and get paid for OpenSource development. Thats something!
16:25:54seletzprpplague: And my Customers just like what i say, so they pay for ex. to develop ethernet and tftp/bootp support in blob. I'm happy.
16:25:56prpplagueseletz: ya me too, never thought i'd see the day
16:27:40seletzprpplague: Now i wish that i never heard of some guy over IRC to raise the "CPU board, cheap and simple" issue, because i still belive in that :)
16:28:39seletzprpplague: honestly: i think one could roll up the market with those boards
16:29:14seletzprpplague: think about mobile phones: Telcos sell them for nothing because they want to sell the _service_ not the hardware
16:29:31seletzprpplague: Same principle could be done with those CPU boards
16:29:53seletzprpplague: sell them _cheap_.
16:30:12seletzprpplague: But sell the _service_ added.
16:31:08seletzprpplague: this is why i want a base CPU board, which can be "plugged" onto customer's designs (Service!!)
16:31:54seletzprpplague: and Service the software (Linux OS, Drivers etc. All developed and maintained on a central base)
16:32:09seletzprpplague: one company to bind them all, erm ...
16:32:41seletzprpplague: no, just kidding. Honestly: What's the biggest part in development?
16:33:42seletzprpplague: Software design, implementation, debugging. Specially when it comes to complex software (Linux!). So why not offer a service added to the CPU boards which offers just that?
16:34:33prpplagueseletz: thats a good pint
16:34:45prpplagueoops. wishfull thinking, s/pint/point
16:35:23seletzprpplague: do you have the same telcos/mobile phone contract type over there as in europe?
16:35:37seletzprpplague: Nokia 6210 only 1$/month!!
16:35:49prpplagueseletz: not sure, i avoid cell phones.....
16:36:04seletzprpplague: (but 50cents/min + 10$ base rate)
16:36:53prpplagueseletz: mostly its like $30 a month with 3000 minutes
16:37:26seletzprpplague: over here they sell mobiles for _nothing_. But you have to buy the telcos service: Base rates, plus per minit rates. The cell phones are then _locked_ to that telco.
16:38:40seletzprpplague: that's the idea: Bind the customers to the telco service, get them first by sellink them top-notch super-duper new mobile phones for a fake price (1$, or 10$).
16:39:15seletzprpplague: customers see "oh, only 1$ for a 6210! Cool!"
16:39:45seletzprpplague: over here even childs have a mobile phone because parents only see the "1$"
16:42:11seletzdownloading 2.5.8
16:42:29seletzBZFlag: hi
16:42:43BZFlaghey. progress?
16:42:53seletzlol
16:43:00BZFlagheh ;-)
16:43:37seletzBZFlag: today was "keep HW guru happy with 10000 blob versions and try to not shout at him"
16:45:08seletzBZFlag: no, honestly: i get a new dev board next week, i'll have to wait until then. In the mean time i'll have to push out some 2.5.8 patches and then i'll test the new board, sigh.
16:46:06BZFlagok. I'm in a meeting here or most of the day. If I get out, I'll start on ide.
16:46:24BZFlagI will put duck's patch up on SF do you can take a look.
16:46:29seletzBZFlag: ok, cool.
16:46:50seletzBZFlag: i'll have PCMCIA access ready once i get the new board.
16:47:02BZFlagok, duck-ide.patch
16:47:41seletzBZFlag: just give me some api to init ide with, i'll give you the base address of the configured CF/PCMCIA socket.
16:48:01BZFlagthat sounds reasonable.
16:48:51seletzBZFlag: and then some functions which do read some sectors, using linear adressing etc.
16:49:11seletzBZFlag: later we can then add some FS code on top of that
16:50:09BZFlagduck says that patch is reading ide vfat images for him now.
16:50:34seletzway cool!
16:51:02seletzswitching HDs to get the PCMCIA patch
16:51:34seletzBZFlag: i moved to my own office, and i did not yet copy all my data :(
16:51:45BZFlagI think duck's board is a normal ide, not a cf.
16:52:34seletzBZFlag: no problem, IDE over PCMCIA is not different, because the CF card is seen in Memory just like a "normal" ide interface
16:53:08seletzBZFlag: thus i give you the base address the CF card is configured to.
16:53:46seletzBZFlag: maybe we have to wrap readb() and writeb() readw() and writew(), though
16:54:08seletzPCMCIA adresses are shifted IIRC
16:56:01seletzscratching patch off old HD, brb
17:15:07seletzok, found it
17:15:11seletz(phew)
17:16:54seletzhmm, it's against 2.0.5-pre2
17:20:44seletzBZFlag: ok, the patch is against 2.0.5-pre2 and only for diag and system3 ATM.
17:21:24seletzBZFlag: Want to have a look right now or should i move it to blob itself?
17:26:04seletzHmmmm, i think i'll pop it in as a command right now
17:27:20seletzcd ..
17:27:25seletzugh
17:27:28seletzwrong window
17:35:27BZFlagshould be in lib probably so it can be used by either.
17:35:43seletzBZFlag: yup, just discovered :)
17:36:46seletzBZFlag: I'll test it now and have a CVS commit later. No harm, because the test funcs are in system3.c only ATM
17:36:57seletzBZFlag: today, i mean
17:40:08seletzBZFlag: hmm, i also have some ide code
17:41:02seletzBZFlag: the code i have is a heavy reworked code from Brad Parker
17:41:22seletzBZFlag: Reworked to be modular and somewhat cleaner
17:45:32BZFlagthat's what duck's is iirc
17:45:43seletzoh
17:45:46seletzcool
17:45:48seletz:)
17:46:17seletzWell, i have split it up into pcmcia.c and ide.c
17:46:25BZFlagagreed
17:46:32seletzi left out the fs stuff
17:46:44seletzpcmcia knows nothing about ide
17:47:05seletzdefined some weak funktion bindings so user can overwrite PCMCIA init
17:47:20seletz(like in diag's LCD framework)
17:48:00seletzI'll make it compileable and commit it, so you can have a look
17:48:03seletzok?
18:03:35prpplagueBZFlag: don't suppose my money order for tux+jtag arrived?
18:07:21BZFlagseletz: great!
18:07:26BZFlagprpplague: nope
18:07:58prpplagueBZFlag: crap
18:08:36prpplagueBZFlag: guess i'll have to do round two via certified
18:08:51prpplagueBZFlag: you do still have some jtag dongles right?
18:22:17BZFlagyes, though not many left. they were pretty popular.
18:23:28prpplagueBZFlag: ok, i'll try to get another order in the mail tomorrow, i knew i should have sent it certified
18:24:44prpplagueBZFlag: if you don't mind, what is the cheapest arm dev board that you've seen next to the tuxscreen?
18:25:42seletz:)
18:30:32BZFlagthe cerf pod or a cheap pda
18:30:49BZFlagipaq 3100?
19:50:13seletzBZFlag: ok, committed pcmcia and ide stuff
19:50:40seletzBZFlag: should work on vercel right out of the box IMHO (PCMCIA)
19:51:02seletzBZFlag: look at system3.c for pcmciatest command
19:53:44seletzargh, late :(
19:59:47seletzgoin home
20:33:59BZFlagide.h?
20:34:02BZFlagcvs is broken
22:00:40Russdo we really want to compile all that stuff is by default?
22:48:47BZFlagRuss: no. that would be my next comment. we need --enable-pcmcia etc.
22:48:56BZFlaglxrbot: recurse?
22:48:57lxrbotbzflag: i don't know
22:49:08BZFlaglxrbot: ibot?
22:49:08lxrbotsomebody said ibot was my fellow bot. he knows a lot about ipaq and normally lives on #ipaq.
22:49:33BZFlagnice username
22:50:12Russhooray, router is back

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