02:33:32 | prpplague | howdy jeffrey_ |
02:35:32 | prpplague | knee how Sammy |
02:35:59 | Sammy | hello prpplague :) |
02:36:10 | prpplague | Sammy: hows life in tawain? |
02:36:12 | Sammy | anything new ? |
02:36:18 | prpplague | same stuff |
02:36:40 | prpplague | too much work, too little pay, too little time to play with linux |
02:36:54 | Sammy | fine but raining all day :'-( |
02:37:27 | prpplague | i got a box of nice green tea in from tapei last week |
02:38:08 | Sammy | really ? you drink tea ? |
02:39:28 | prpplague | Sammy: i enjoy it occasionaly, its hard to get good tea in texas |
02:40:15 | Sammy | if that so , everytime you need , you can tell me , I'll buy what you need and sent it to you :) |
02:40:45 | prpplague | great |
03:35:07 | prpplague | you alive seletz_home? |
03:35:36 | Russ|werk | I like debugging x86 bootloaders, its much more fun than plain old segfaults |
03:35:47 | Russ|werk | the screen turns pretty colors and it reboots instead |
03:36:20 | prpplague | lol |
03:36:42 | prpplague | Russ: hey what's your sa-1100 board going to be for again? |
03:36:54 | Russ|werk | firewall/NAT |
03:37:21 | prpplague | Russ: all your design? |
03:37:38 | Russ|werk | ya |
03:38:05 | Russ|werk | I origianally was going to just make a dual ethernet board for LART, and use larts, but after designing the board |
03:38:19 | Russ|werk | I discovered that I could not obtain the flash required to build a lart |
03:38:39 | prpplague | Russ|werk: nice |
03:38:56 | Russ|werk | so I designed my own sa1100 board with TSOP flash instead, but its still compatible with the previously designed ethernet board |
03:38:57 | prpplague | Russ|werk: i guess i'm just a arm wannabie |
03:39:23 | Russ|werk | so its very "lart-like", but all surface mount, missing the low speed connectors, and different flash |
03:39:56 | prpplague | Russ|werk: sounds pretty cool |
03:40:17 | prpplague | Russ|werk: you find it easier to work with the sa-1100 than the sa-1110? |
03:42:01 | Russ|werk | well, I don't know anything about BGA |
03:42:09 | Russ|werk | and I didn't start knowing anything about board design |
03:42:25 | Russ|werk | QFP is more forgiving |
03:42:36 | prpplague | ya thats what i hear |
03:42:50 | Russ|werk | if I did a redesign, I would make everything BGA though, CPU, flash, DRAM |
03:42:59 | prpplague | i'm having problem finding anyone that will sell me sa-1100 chips though |
03:43:34 | Russ|werk | I didn't double check all the tied signals (active low vs active high) on the first three, and I accidently tied BATT_FAULT and POWER_FAULT high |
03:43:44 | Russ|werk | but because it was QFP, I could make a fixb |
03:44:56 | prpplague | Russ|werk: hmm, what kind $$ are you looking at per proto board? |
03:46:07 | Russ|werk | with the first three, it was $3000 each, but that was overpriced |
03:46:20 | Russ|werk | I think the run of 25 is $400 apiece |
03:46:22 | prpplague | ouch |
03:46:39 | prpplague | $400 is not bad |
03:47:00 | prpplague | is that the triad company doing the board and assembly? |
03:47:03 | Russ|werk | ya |
03:47:14 | Russ|werk | well, they had the pcbs made elsewhere |
03:47:51 | prpplague | Russ|werk: don't suppose your writing up "Russ's do's and don'ts of SA board design" ???? |
06:53:51 | hugendubl | good morning |
07:24:15 | mmatten | morning |
08:34:37 | seletz | mogääään! |
14:13:36 | seletz | prpplague: hi |
14:14:53 | prpplague | morning |
14:42:08 | prpplague | seletz: whats the most expensive part of the cpu module we've been discussing? |
14:50:55 | seletz | prpplague: hi, sorry for the delay, quite busy now :) |
14:51:25 | seletz | prpplague: the PCB production and assembly |
14:52:00 | seletz | prpplague: IIRC, that is |
14:52:40 | seletz | prpplague: HW parts: SA1110, Flash RAM, SDRAM in that order |
14:53:54 | seletz | prpplague: OK i looked it up, PCB assembly and production comes next to the FLASH rams |
14:57:23 | prpplague | seletz: ok is the cost of the pcb higher due to size and layers? |
14:58:12 | seletz | prpplague: The costs are based on a 6-layer 75x75mm^2 PCB |
14:58:42 | seletz | prpplague: but really th order is: SA1110, Flash RAM, PCB, SDRAM, Connectors |
14:59:24 | seletz | prpplague: all prices are calculated on an 1000 units base, though. Don't forget that. |
15:00:43 | seletz | reviving 2.5.x kernel CVS :( |
15:30:45 | prpplague | seletz: just out of curiosity, what would something like this - http://www.newmicros.com/index2.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newmicros.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fstore%2Forder.cgi%3Fform%3Dprod_detail%26part%3D8051-SPCL%26id%3Db11En8avw6RV7OM4C6B281IUrKL2Ke06 |
15:30:57 | prpplague | seletz: cost using an ar processor? |
15:31:14 | seletz | looking |
15:32:04 | prpplague | seletz: i know thats a 8051 board, but i've used that one before and i really like the layout |
15:35:43 | seletz | prpplague: well, remember my email. The Base board for evaluating and testing the CPU core module just looks like a big experimental area. |
15:36:24 | seletz | prpplague: the "base board" just has: power connector, small dc regulator, sockets for CPU board. |
15:36:45 | prpplague | seletz: ya i know, i'm just thinking out load, i'm wondering if making the overall board bigger with less layers would make the board cheaper |
15:36:56 | seletz | prpplague: and is build based on an experimental board (rapid prototyping board) |
15:38:17 | seletz | prpplague: maybe, most probably. But i dont think that the effect is worth the cost reduction IMHO |
15:39:30 | seletz | prpplague: the basic idea was to have a CPU board which can be extended through different base boards (and thus keeping the CPU board small and general, thus minimizing re-design costs if customer's wishes change). |
15:39:58 | seletz | prpplague: the base board could be a cheap design (single layer even) |
15:40:38 | prpplague | seletz: true, and i'm still convinced of that, however i've got this thing rattling around in my brain about a low cost dev board |
15:40:56 | seletz | prpplague: One cant have a CPU board with a "cheap" design. Think memory timing, signal integrity and so on. The base board can, though. |
15:41:31 | prpplague | seletz: again, thinking out loud, what would it take make a large arm based board that would cost $100USD ? |
15:42:04 | seletz | prpplague: large number of units, basically. |
15:42:09 | prpplague | seletz: hmmmm |
15:42:35 | prpplague | seletz: your just no fun today |
15:42:38 | seletz | prpplague: bear in mint that we calculated a different thing, though |
15:43:13 | prpplague | seletz: ya i know, this is really two seperate items, one is work, the other is personal |
15:43:46 | prpplague | seletz: i'd consider funding a project myself |
15:44:10 | seletz | prpplague: the thing is: Once you have a BGA chip, one can't have "cheap" PCB design. PCB design, setup costs and production/assembly limits the price. |
15:44:35 | seletz | prpplague: well, once you consider that (i did too), you first have to thik about: |
15:45:27 | seletz | prpplague: 1) PCB design setup, production and assembly. Maybe you want a tested board (BGA => PCB X-Ray) |
15:45:39 | prpplague | seletz: what about using another arm core other than SA? |
15:45:46 | seletz | prpplague: 2) HW pars cost |
15:45:56 | seletz | prpplague: no idea, honestly. |
15:46:57 | seletz | prpplague: initial costs of the PCB we calculated (desig, setup) are about $20.000.- |
15:47:08 | prpplague | seletz: hmm, maybe we can talk more at OLS, i hate to take up your time on a personal ambition |
15:47:20 | seletz | prpplague: no problem |
15:48:20 | prpplague | seletz: i'd just don't understand why more companies like intrisync and adds don't make cheaper board for experimentors |
15:48:42 | seletz | prpplague: really, i also thought: "Damn, why not just get this into producteon and think about selling it later?" |
15:48:54 | prpplague | seletz: have you ever used a "stamp" processor? |
15:49:31 | prpplague | seletz: i'd hate for you to spend time on it, and then mangement on my end shot it down |
15:49:48 | seletz | prpplague: i really thought about financing the initial costs by myself and just produce a few boars. But that's impossible ATM |
15:50:14 | seletz_ | ugh |
15:50:19 | seletz_ | NETWORK HICCUPS |
15:50:31 | seletz_ | (sorry for yelling) |
15:51:48 | prpplague | np |
15:52:01 | prpplague | seletz: have you ever used a "stamp" processor? |
15:52:24 | seletz_ | prpplague: no, sorry. |
15:52:52 | prpplague | http://www.parallaxinc.com/ |
15:52:53 | seletz_ | prpplague: whats this rumour about our project and JDB? |
15:53:17 | prpplague | seletz_: erikm said jdb might be interested in the project |
15:53:45 | prpplague | seletz_: he was interested in doing the same type of design(i.e. sa-1110 core board) |
15:54:28 | seletz_ | eeek |
15:54:29 | seletz_ | basic |
15:54:42 | prpplague | lol |
15:55:06 | prpplague | the deal is that those are the electronic hobbyists hot item |
15:55:16 | prpplague | everyone here in the states uses them |
15:55:18 | seletz_ | whats a "polled interrupt"? |
15:55:24 | seletz_ | IRQ or no IRQ? |
15:55:29 | prpplague | even the local wal-mart carries them |
15:55:49 | prpplague | seletz_: no irq, but can use one of the gpio's for irq |
15:55:51 | seletz_ | well, thats cool |
15:56:13 | seletz_ | coll little devices, really. |
15:56:24 | prpplague | seletz_: point is, i'd love to see an arm/linux board that hits the market in the same way |
15:57:32 | seletz_ | Well, probably they sell tenth of thousands units |
15:58:57 | prpplague | seletz_: yes i'm sure they do, but they didn |
15:59:02 | prpplague | t start that way |
16:00:49 | seletz | prpplague: hmm, i guess they sell because of two main points: 1) they're cheap 2) and easy to use |
16:01:03 | prpplague | seletz: exactly |
16:01:22 | seletz | prpplague:keep (1) away just for the moment |
16:01:57 | seletz | prpplague: do you think that (2) is really doable with an linux system? |
16:02:44 | prpplague | seletz: yes, i do, with a nice basic install, and good documentation, i think it would be great for experimentors and for linux newbies |
16:03:31 | seletz | prpplague: you most probably want to have "professional" users |
16:03:41 | seletz | grr |
16:03:51 | seletz | sorry phone |
16:03:53 | prpplague | np |
16:19:13 | seletz | back |
16:19:59 | seletz | prpplague: i really meant: you probably get more "professional" or "semi-professional" users. Most people are scared of Unix and Linux. |
16:20:20 | prpplague | seletz: i know, but thats just because they don't know about it |
16:21:18 | seletz | prpplague: yes, i know that :) Hen and egg problem here.... |
16:21:24 | prpplague | seletz: yep |
16:21:47 | prpplague | seletz: i guess i'm a little idealist today |
16:22:22 | seletz | prpplague: dont mis-unnderstand me here: i absolutely _want_ such a deviche, like you. And i believe that its possible to get linux there, now. |
16:22:54 | seletz | prpplague: If i had a million $ ..... |
16:23:10 | seletz | prpplague: ok, say $100k |
16:23:16 | prpplague | seletz: ya i say that often as well |
16:23:59 | seletz | prpplague: on top of my wish-list: 1) show those nay-sayers what real Linux power is |
16:24:04 | seletz | prpplague: 2) see 1 |
16:24:08 | prpplague | lol |
16:24:53 | seletz | prpplague: but hey: i'm sitting here and get paid for OpenSource development. Thats something! |
16:25:54 | seletz | prpplague: And my Customers just like what i say, so they pay for ex. to develop ethernet and tftp/bootp support in blob. I'm happy. |
16:25:56 | prpplague | seletz: ya me too, never thought i'd see the day |
16:27:40 | seletz | prpplague: Now i wish that i never heard of some guy over IRC to raise the "CPU board, cheap and simple" issue, because i still belive in that :) |
16:28:39 | seletz | prpplague: honestly: i think one could roll up the market with those boards |
16:29:14 | seletz | prpplague: think about mobile phones: Telcos sell them for nothing because they want to sell the _service_ not the hardware |
16:29:31 | seletz | prpplague: Same principle could be done with those CPU boards |
16:29:53 | seletz | prpplague: sell them _cheap_. |
16:30:12 | seletz | prpplague: But sell the _service_ added. |
16:31:08 | seletz | prpplague: this is why i want a base CPU board, which can be "plugged" onto customer's designs (Service!!) |
16:31:54 | seletz | prpplague: and Service the software (Linux OS, Drivers etc. All developed and maintained on a central base) |
16:32:09 | seletz | prpplague: one company to bind them all, erm ... |
16:32:41 | seletz | prpplague: no, just kidding. Honestly: What's the biggest part in development? |
16:33:42 | seletz | prpplague: Software design, implementation, debugging. Specially when it comes to complex software (Linux!). So why not offer a service added to the CPU boards which offers just that? |
16:34:33 | prpplague | seletz: thats a good pint |
16:34:45 | prpplague | oops. wishfull thinking, s/pint/point |
16:35:23 | seletz | prpplague: do you have the same telcos/mobile phone contract type over there as in europe? |
16:35:37 | seletz | prpplague: Nokia 6210 only 1$/month!! |
16:35:49 | prpplague | seletz: not sure, i avoid cell phones..... |
16:36:04 | seletz | prpplague: (but 50cents/min + 10$ base rate) |
16:36:53 | prpplague | seletz: mostly its like $30 a month with 3000 minutes |
16:37:26 | seletz | prpplague: over here they sell mobiles for _nothing_. But you have to buy the telcos service: Base rates, plus per minit rates. The cell phones are then _locked_ to that telco. |
16:38:40 | seletz | prpplague: that's the idea: Bind the customers to the telco service, get them first by sellink them top-notch super-duper new mobile phones for a fake price (1$, or 10$). |
16:39:15 | seletz | prpplague: customers see "oh, only 1$ for a 6210! Cool!" |
16:39:45 | seletz | prpplague: over here even childs have a mobile phone because parents only see the "1$" |
16:42:11 | seletz | downloading 2.5.8 |
16:42:29 | seletz | BZFlag: hi |
16:42:43 | BZFlag | hey. progress? |
16:42:53 | seletz | lol |
16:43:00 | BZFlag | heh ;-) |
16:43:37 | seletz | BZFlag: today was "keep HW guru happy with 10000 blob versions and try to not shout at him" |
16:45:08 | seletz | BZFlag: no, honestly: i get a new dev board next week, i'll have to wait until then. In the mean time i'll have to push out some 2.5.8 patches and then i'll test the new board, sigh. |
16:46:06 | BZFlag | ok. I'm in a meeting here or most of the day. If I get out, I'll start on ide. |
16:46:24 | BZFlag | I will put duck's patch up on SF do you can take a look. |
16:46:29 | seletz | BZFlag: ok, cool. |
16:46:50 | seletz | BZFlag: i'll have PCMCIA access ready once i get the new board. |
16:47:02 | BZFlag | ok, duck-ide.patch |
16:47:41 | seletz | BZFlag: just give me some api to init ide with, i'll give you the base address of the configured CF/PCMCIA socket. |
16:48:01 | BZFlag | that sounds reasonable. |
16:48:51 | seletz | BZFlag: and then some functions which do read some sectors, using linear adressing etc. |
16:49:11 | seletz | BZFlag: later we can then add some FS code on top of that |
16:50:09 | BZFlag | duck says that patch is reading ide vfat images for him now. |
16:50:34 | seletz | way cool! |
16:51:02 | seletz | switching HDs to get the PCMCIA patch |
16:51:34 | seletz | BZFlag: i moved to my own office, and i did not yet copy all my data :( |
16:51:45 | BZFlag | I think duck's board is a normal ide, not a cf. |
16:52:34 | seletz | BZFlag: no problem, IDE over PCMCIA is not different, because the CF card is seen in Memory just like a "normal" ide interface |
16:53:08 | seletz | BZFlag: thus i give you the base address the CF card is configured to. |
16:53:46 | seletz | BZFlag: maybe we have to wrap readb() and writeb() readw() and writew(), though |
16:54:08 | seletz | PCMCIA adresses are shifted IIRC |
16:56:01 | seletz | scratching patch off old HD, brb |
17:15:07 | seletz | ok, found it |
17:15:11 | seletz | (phew) |
17:16:54 | seletz | hmm, it's against 2.0.5-pre2 |
17:20:44 | seletz | BZFlag: ok, the patch is against 2.0.5-pre2 and only for diag and system3 ATM. |
17:21:24 | seletz | BZFlag: Want to have a look right now or should i move it to blob itself? |
17:26:04 | seletz | Hmmmm, i think i'll pop it in as a command right now |
17:27:20 | seletz | cd .. |
17:27:25 | seletz | ugh |
17:27:28 | seletz | wrong window |
17:35:27 | BZFlag | should be in lib probably so it can be used by either. |
17:35:43 | seletz | BZFlag: yup, just discovered :) |
17:36:46 | seletz | BZFlag: I'll test it now and have a CVS commit later. No harm, because the test funcs are in system3.c only ATM |
17:36:57 | seletz | BZFlag: today, i mean |
17:40:08 | seletz | BZFlag: hmm, i also have some ide code |
17:41:02 | seletz | BZFlag: the code i have is a heavy reworked code from Brad Parker |
17:41:22 | seletz | BZFlag: Reworked to be modular and somewhat cleaner |
17:45:32 | BZFlag | that's what duck's is iirc |
17:45:43 | seletz | oh |
17:45:46 | seletz | cool |
17:45:48 | seletz | :) |
17:46:17 | seletz | Well, i have split it up into pcmcia.c and ide.c |
17:46:25 | BZFlag | agreed |
17:46:32 | seletz | i left out the fs stuff |
17:46:44 | seletz | pcmcia knows nothing about ide |
17:47:05 | seletz | defined some weak funktion bindings so user can overwrite PCMCIA init |
17:47:20 | seletz | (like in diag's LCD framework) |
17:48:00 | seletz | I'll make it compileable and commit it, so you can have a look |
17:48:03 | seletz | ok? |
18:03:35 | prpplague | BZFlag: don't suppose my money order for tux+jtag arrived? |
18:07:21 | BZFlag | seletz: great! |
18:07:26 | BZFlag | prpplague: nope |
18:07:58 | prpplague | BZFlag: crap |
18:08:36 | prpplague | BZFlag: guess i'll have to do round two via certified |
18:08:51 | prpplague | BZFlag: you do still have some jtag dongles right? |
18:22:17 | BZFlag | yes, though not many left. they were pretty popular. |
18:23:28 | prpplague | BZFlag: ok, i'll try to get another order in the mail tomorrow, i knew i should have sent it certified |
18:24:44 | prpplague | BZFlag: if you don't mind, what is the cheapest arm dev board that you've seen next to the tuxscreen? |
18:25:42 | seletz | :) |
18:30:32 | BZFlag | the cerf pod or a cheap pda |
18:30:49 | BZFlag | ipaq 3100? |
19:50:13 | seletz | BZFlag: ok, committed pcmcia and ide stuff |
19:50:40 | seletz | BZFlag: should work on vercel right out of the box IMHO (PCMCIA) |
19:51:02 | seletz | BZFlag: look at system3.c for pcmciatest command |
19:53:44 | seletz | argh, late :( |
19:59:47 | seletz | goin home |
20:33:59 | BZFlag | ide.h? |
20:34:02 | BZFlag | cvs is broken |
22:00:40 | Russ | do we really want to compile all that stuff is by default? |
22:48:47 | BZFlag | Russ: no. that would be my next comment. we need --enable-pcmcia etc. |
22:48:56 | BZFlag | lxrbot: recurse? |
22:48:57 | lxrbot | bzflag: i don't know |
22:49:08 | BZFlag | lxrbot: ibot? |
22:49:08 | lxrbot | somebody said ibot was my fellow bot. he knows a lot about ipaq and normally lives on #ipaq. |
22:49:33 | BZFlag | nice username |
22:50:12 | Russ | hooray, router is back |