14:23:43 | Sammy | goes home... |
15:19:30 | prpplague | howdy all |
15:19:36 | prpplague | anything fun happening today |
15:19:58 | erikm | hello prpplague |
15:34:37 | prpplague | erikm: hows life on campus? |
17:43:54 | seletz | hi folks |
17:44:58 | seletz | moved filally to his new office |
17:47:16 | prpplague | howdy seletz |
17:47:24 | seletz | prpplague: hi |
17:47:36 | prpplague | seletz: ever get your irq hdw problems straight? |
17:47:41 | prpplague | wb erikm |
17:49:04 | seletz | prpplague: well, i moved to 2.5.2-rmk6, there the irq subsystem was rewritten. Now i get other errors, (read: random lockups). I now try to get a neponset board running with 2.5.2-rmk6. I definitely mess something up. sigh. |
17:49:50 | seletz | prpplague: right now i try to get used with mutt (hi erik...) and sendmail/procmail conf. grrr. |
18:43:25 | erikm | hmm, more people over here, just like I expected |
22:14:19 | BZFlag | erikm: hmm... If I have the memory I might very well want chkmem in blob. |
22:14:31 | erikm | BZFlag: no |
22:14:46 | BZFlag | no? |
22:14:59 | erikm | BZFlag: blob is a bootloader, diag is for diagnostics |
22:15:25 | erikm | BZFlag: testing memory is clearly diagnostics |
22:15:39 | BZFlag | for most installs I agree. But say I have a system with 256k flash blocks. why not fill up the 256k with usefull stuff? |
22:15:40 | seletz | BZFlag: erik will probably point you to the motto.txt file now ;^) |
22:16:26 | erikm | BZFlag: chris hoover pointed it out correctly: it's a matter of policy |
22:16:28 | BZFlag | dump is clearly a diagnostics tool. but it has been _very_ useful to have in blob. |
22:16:49 | erikm | BZFlag: I left that in because its a good tool to debug blob |
22:16:53 | BZFlag | ditto for peek and poke. |
22:16:58 | erikm | ditto |
22:17:57 | seletz | erikm: I don't want to argue now, but consider someone wants a POSt routine _every_ startup, and that POST should do a memory test? |
22:17:59 | BZFlag | hmm. I can see that chkmem etc should be in diag by default, but I do not agree that removing the possibility of having them in blob is a good thing. |
22:18:17 | erikm | I already had reports from people implementing their own wicked dump implementation, so I'd rather have something that works well |
22:18:51 | erikm | seletz: we're already doing a memory test that determines the size of the memory |
22:19:00 | erikm | seletz: that's also the same as a PC BIOS does |
22:19:32 | seletz | erikm: yup, agreed. I thought of the general concept: POST is diagnostics. Highly boadr dependant, too. |
22:19:36 | erikm | BZFlag: ok, today it's chkmem in blob. tomorrow it is chk-ethernet-card. where do we draw the line? |
22:20:01 | BZFlag | with --enable-stilly-misfeatures ;-) |
22:20:08 | BZFlag | er silly. |
22:20:56 | BZFlag | imho the line is drawn based on your --enable-foo options at compile time. |
22:21:21 | seletz | erikm: How would you implement a POSt which should, say, check ETH, check some weird on-board HW, and then startups linux? |
22:21:29 | BZFlag | a system with small flash blocks will draw a much different line than a system with large blocks. that's the real line. |
22:22:13 | erikm | seletz: just assume the ethernet card works. if it doesn't it's time to load diag and figure out *why* it doesn't work |
22:23:00 | BZFlag | unless of course the only load method you compiled in was tftp. ;-) |
22:23:02 | erikm | seletz: no need to put diagnostics code into blob for the 0.001% of the cases it doesn't work |
22:24:02 | erikm | BZFlag: I think it's a good idea to have at least one kind of serial download method in blob |
22:24:08 | BZFlag | well, I'd say "there is no sense in wasting the rest of the initial flash block by filling it with 0xff's" |
22:24:51 | BZFlag | erikm: serial. agreed when there is a serial port available. the vercel will not have one. |
22:24:54 | erikm | BZFlag: so cat diag after blob and put it in the same flash block |
22:25:14 | seletz | _yuck_ |
22:25:17 | erikm | BZFlag: in that case there is no interaction possible with the booat loader at all |
22:25:34 | BZFlag | having all the commands in one binary would clearly allow more commands to fit. |
22:25:56 | erikm | BZFlag: but how would you like to give those commands if there is no serial port? |
22:26:35 | BZFlag | erikm: I'm looking at a tftp server mode to blob and considering udp console access. thoughts? |
22:27:17 | erikm | don't you think it's easier to spend $2 on a RS232 tranceiver? |
22:27:24 | seletz | BZFlag: like in Redboot? (yuck-bleah) |
22:27:29 | BZFlag | That's just an option. The one I do plan to do is button activated ide flashing. |
22:27:43 | BZFlag | erikm: I do yes. vercel does not. |
22:27:56 | BZFlag | . o O ( ugh. ) |
22:28:17 | erikm | BZFlag: it will make the product slightly more expensive, but the support costs will go down a *lot* |
22:28:37 | erikm | BZFlag: after a LED, a serial port is the printf() of debugging |
22:28:48 | BZFlag | erikm: I agree completely. unfortunately I have been unable to convince the customer so far. |
22:29:20 | erikm | BZFlag: how many products do they want to make? |
22:29:24 | BZFlag | to the extent that they are pondering paying us 70k+ to add usb console access to blob. |
22:29:48 | seletz | erikm: man, i even had to solder LEDs on my board because the original hw design had no led ... :( |
22:29:55 | BZFlag | about one new platform every 3 months. |
22:30:28 | BZFlag | heh, vercel has no leds either. I use the backlight as my indicator. |
22:30:35 | seletz | :) |
22:30:37 | erikm | BZFlag: sorry, I mean how many vercels do they want to sell? |
22:30:38 | BZFlag | well, so software accessible leds |
22:31:00 | BZFlag | they are looking at 100k a month or so. |
22:31:11 | erikm | BZFlag: 100k? what's it supposed to do? |
22:31:22 | seletz | 100k a MONTH ? |
22:31:28 | BZFlag | it's the teen pda/game box etc. |
22:31:49 | BZFlag | yes. perhaps 200k units/month if things go well. |
22:31:57 | seletz | phew |
22:32:17 | seletz | BZFlag: i hope you get licensing $$ .... :) |
22:32:27 | BZFlag | yep. that's in the plan. |
22:33:10 | BZFlag | ceo of vercel is co-inventor of the furby. This will see similar distribution channels. |
22:33:44 | erikm | BZFlag: but ok. 100k a month. lets assume 1% returns to facture with a problem. let's assume 1% has a problem with the low level stuff. that's 10 per month. |
22:33:53 | seletz | has gone quiet in envy ... :) |
22:34:20 | BZFlag | ok. |
22:34:59 | BZFlag | they would likely try reflashing from ide, if that fails, send a replacement. |
22:35:04 | seletz | hmmm. 1% of 1% is a bit low IMHO |
22:35:09 | erikm | BZFlag: let's assume that it takes 1.5 hours to figure out what went wrong and repair it. if the thing has a serial port it gets done in 30 minutes |
22:35:22 | BZFlag | or usb console access. |
22:35:48 | erikm | BZFlag: so that's 10 hours times whatever a service technician costs |
22:36:33 | BZFlag | agreed. cept that usb console get's them the same thing provided blob/usb hardware is ok. |
22:36:51 | erikm | BZFlag: so does it get an USB plug? |
22:37:01 | BZFlag | 2. one host and one client. |
22:37:07 | seletz | BZFlag: how do you flash in case of a complete system crash? |
22:37:09 | erikm | BZFlag: USB client is broken |
22:37:13 | erikm | seletz: jtag |
22:37:32 | seletz | BZFlag: you have jtag cons but no serial? |
22:37:39 | BZFlag | jtag will be on the board but will require disassembly to get to it. |
22:37:52 | BZFlag | I'm trying to get that fixed, and likely will. |
22:38:12 | seletz | ok, so the'll probably not flash at all, because of labor costs, no? |
22:38:19 | seletz | s/labor/labour/ |
22:38:34 | BZFlag | jtag pins will be available on the board edge near the cf slot. cut a small hole and you are in. dev model may have that opening already. |
22:38:42 | erikm | BZFlag: you can do the same for serial. just have four connections (gnd, rxd, txd, +3.3V), add an external board with MAX232 and you're set |
22:38:57 | BZFlag | that's exactly what I'm pusing for, |
22:38:58 | erikm | BZFlag: doesn't cost them anything extra, makes life a lot simpler |
22:39:09 | BZFlag | I just don't think it likely to happen. |
22:39:21 | erikm | BZFlag: and you can drop the b0rken USB client in that case |
22:39:24 | BZFlag | I'll know for sure around the end of march. |
22:39:42 | seletz | erikm: why is USB client broken? |
22:39:54 | erikm | seletz: because the SA-1110 is broken |
22:40:12 | BZFlag | seletz: there are just a ton of ugly work arounds required. |
22:40:15 | erikm | seletz: it's in the intel errata |
22:40:25 | seletz | erikm: the packet size issue? |
22:40:34 | erikm | BZFlag: the USB state machine can completely lock up |
22:40:44 | seletz | _ugh_ |
22:40:47 | BZFlag | yep. |
22:41:03 | erikm | BZFlag: the sa1110 is slightly better than the sa1100, but still considered too broken to be really useful |
22:41:06 | seletz | is supposed to get USB client working somhow lather this year |
22:41:23 | erikm | seletz: it works as long as it's the only device connected to the host |
22:41:29 | BZFlag | zaurus and ipaq both have it working fairly well. |
22:41:49 | BZFlag | yes, as the only client. |
22:41:57 | erikm | as long as you keep within the constraints of the intel errata |
22:42:15 | erikm | s/keep/stay/ |
22:43:01 | erikm | seletz: easiest way to work around it is to put an extra USB host controller in your PC and use it exclusively for sa-11x0 devices |
22:44:01 | seletz | erikm: ok, I'll keep that in mind. |
22:44:24 | seletz | makes a note to read the erratas when time comes :( |
22:47:51 | erikm | oops, people wanting to mount BGAs themself on the LART list :( |
22:48:36 | seletz | :) |
22:48:51 | seletz | was on arm-kernel too |
22:48:55 | erikm | and we already discouraged them mounting QFP themself :) |
22:49:18 | erikm | (actually, I hand soldered a couple of LARTs :) |
22:49:27 | seletz | eeeek! |
22:49:37 | erikm | but that's not something we want others to know |
22:49:39 | seletz | runs away in horror |
22:49:57 | erikm | seletz: a good soldering station helps a lot |
22:50:08 | erikm | seletz: and a micro reflow soldering tip |
22:50:14 | erikm | seletz: and *lots* of flux |
22:50:46 | seletz | erikm: man, i sure am not too bad in soldering, but that ... ~:^/ |
22:51:13 | Russ | BZFlag: don't put a RS232 transceiver onboard |
22:51:31 | seletz | ugh |
22:51:32 | Russ | BZFlag: make the serial signals available, as well as 3.3V and GND |
22:51:41 | erikm | Russ: *nod* |
22:51:47 | Russ | BZFlag: then put a RS232 transceiver on your board connector |
22:52:05 | seletz | SIGGIRLFRIEND |
22:52:12 | seletz | :^/ |
22:52:13 | Russ | BZFlag: can even put diagnostic LEDs on there, if you are looking to save an extra penny |
22:52:13 | erikm | Russ: that's actually how I added a third RS232 receiver to a couple of LARTs |
22:52:18 | seletz | bye folks |
22:52:23 | erikm | bye seletz |
22:56:00 | erikm | goes zzz |
22:56:01 | erikm | bye |
23:38:39 | BZFlag | lags... |
23:40:22 | BZFlag | Russ: agreed. I'm just fighting for getting at the connection at all. had not planned to ask for rs232 levels. |