02:45:05 | Sammy | BZFlag: you here ? |
02:45:20 | | BZFlag was last seen on #blob 5 hours, 58 minutes and 25 seconds ago, saying: is the SF project mentioned in that doc? the diff lines included the .nl site... [Mon Jan 7 20:46:55 2002] |
02:45:20 | Sammy | ibot: seen BZFlag ? |
04:43:23 | Sammy | lunch |
05:54:00 | Sammy | is back ... |
09:50:00 | erikm | morning |
10:08:34 | Sammy | morning erikm :) |
12:35:49 | seletz | hi all |
12:46:12 | erikm | hello seletz |
13:56:01 | rsaUs | need some help porting blob |
14:21:38 | sammy_wms | loading the pre2 ... |
14:31:05 | erikm | thinks rsaUs needed a little bit more patience |
15:49:15 | seletz | akira|work: hi |
15:49:49 | seletz | trying to understand freeware ATA flash driver from SANDISK |
15:51:52 | prpplague | morning seletz |
15:52:04 | seletz | hi |
15:52:08 | prpplague | seletz: hows life as a "linux consultant" |
15:52:18 | seletz | :D |
15:52:26 | seletz | fine. |
15:53:35 | seletz | prpplague: just told a student which does his diploma here that I'll not accept his code he wrote over Xmas for my driver. |
15:54:08 | akira|work | hahahaha |
15:54:12 | akira|work | hi btw :) |
15:54:21 | akira|work | somehow that sounds oddly familiar to me :> |
15:55:48 | seletz | well, i told him _before_ that he has to use some code we wrote before. He decided not to do so. I decided not to accept it. |
15:58:47 | akira|work | <g> |
15:59:04 | akira|work | luckily htat des _not_ sound familiar :) |
16:01:12 | erikm | seletz: lol :) |
16:01:16 | prpplague | seletz: hey now, you'd probably laugh at my code.... |
16:01:23 | seletz | nah. |
16:01:48 | prpplague | seletz: i don't have anyone looking over my shoulder very often, so i get lazy sometimes |
16:02:21 | seletz | He is to become an degree in E-eng, but has _no_ C exp. Wrote #include <foo.c> and such. But partout wants to write a linux device driver. sigh. |
16:02:31 | prpplague | man this aquapad hardware is nice, but the rootfs sucks |
16:02:35 | prpplague | seletz: ohh |
16:03:17 | seletz | prpplague: now, i told him: lets first write a rinbuffer module, we'll need it anyway. Then test it un userspace. |
16:03:38 | seletz | prpplague: _then_ get "linux device drivers" and read it thrice :) |
16:03:51 | akira|work | let me guess |
16:04:00 | seletz | prpplague: _then_ write a module with init() exit() open() and close() |
16:04:05 | erikm | seletz: give him a couple of good C books to read. K&R ANSI edition, for example |
16:04:21 | seletz | prpplague: then read() which returns a scalar value |
16:04:38 | seletz | erikm: to late. he's to finish due 02-02 |
16:04:43 | erikm | seletz: aiee |
16:04:52 | seletz | s/to/too/ |
16:05:46 | seletz | well, at last he wrote a driver which _seems_ to not lock up when multiple reads/writes open/closes happe. |
16:06:03 | seletz | (with help, tough. LOT of help) |
16:06:36 | akira|work | oh and when he's done u can start smacking me around a bit eh seletz :) |
16:06:51 | seletz | but then: instead of finally using the rinbuffer module heself wrote, he hacked another (buggy) version of a ringbuffer directly into the driver. ARGH! |
16:07:15 | akira|work | i fear my coding style has gone too far into the "koch/keller/gampp" direction :> |
16:07:38 | seletz | akira|work: we'll fix that, that'll be np :) |
16:07:45 | akira|work | thouhgt so :) |
16:08:25 | seletz | cooling down slowly |
16:08:37 | erikm | twaps around with Documentation/CodingStyle |
16:08:50 | seletz | erikm: in blob? |
16:09:17 | erikm | seletz: no, in the linux source |
16:10:25 | seletz | erikm: hmmm, is there really one? /me read this week's KernelCousin digest .... |
16:11:04 | erikm | file /usr/src/linux-2.4.17/Documentation/CodingStyle |
16:11:05 | erikm | /usr/src/linux-2.4.17/Documentation/CodingStyle: ASCII English text |
16:11:16 | seletz | erikm: lol |
16:11:26 | seletz | erikm: yeah, i know this one. |
16:11:42 | erikm | "First off, I'd suggest printing out a copy of the GNU coding standards, |
16:11:43 | erikm | and NOT read it. Burn them, it's a great symbolic gesture. |
16:11:43 | erikm | " |
16:11:59 | seletz | thats one of the best parts, really. |
16:12:01 | prpplague | believes creating good/beautiful code is an art not a science |
16:12:10 | seletz | yup |
16:12:32 | erikm | prpplague: it's something you only learn by experience |
16:12:59 | erikm | seletz: did that student of yours have *any* programming experience? |
16:13:31 | prpplague | i also believe that alot of it comes from being mentored by someone, books and howtos are good, but feedback from another is great |
16:13:44 | erikm | seletz: over here the students learn C++, which is a horror in itself if you get them for their masters thesis |
16:13:49 | erikm | prpplague: *nod* |
16:14:08 | seletz | erikm: well, nowadays they don't even make a difference between "C" and "C++". They use "C++" compilers and do procedural programming using cin and cout. |
16:14:28 | prpplague | lives in east texas where the FHA gets more education money than the computer department |
16:14:36 | erikm | seletz: they happily feed a C++ istream to an ioctl() and wonder why the serial port speed doesn't change at all |
16:14:51 | erikm | prpplague: FHA? |
16:15:01 | seletz | erikm: yup. But the don't know of serial speeds either, at most. |
16:15:29 | prpplague | erikm: aggreculture and homemaker stuff |
16:15:39 | seletz | _ugh_ |
16:16:01 | seletz | prpplague: did you mean it or was that a joke? |
16:16:59 | prpplague | nope it is true, my high school was in the middle of a cow pasture, 1/2 the day was devoted to agg technology! |
16:17:53 | seletz | prpplague: Only in texas i guess? :) |
16:17:59 | prpplague | yep |
16:18:08 | erikm | seletz: I got a good student a couple of months ago. one that actually understood how a 4-way SMP machine worked and how you could take advantage of that |
16:18:22 | prpplague | where i work is out on a 3800 ranch |
16:18:54 | seletz | erikm: man, i wish i had'nt chosen to go to an FH .... |
16:19:23 | seletz | erikm: "SMP" i heard of _never_ in any course. |
16:20:02 | erikm | seletz: SMP == Symmetric Multi Processing |
16:20:16 | erikm | seletz: dual PIII is a 2-way SMP machine |
16:20:32 | seletz | erikm: lol, no, i know what it means, but i didnt learn it at the FH. |
16:21:08 | erikm | seletz: the "symmetric" part is from the fact that both CPUs have the same view on the machine |
16:21:51 | seletz | erikm: ... |
16:22:22 | erikm | seletz: want me to continue on NUMA and ccNUMA? ;) |
16:22:32 | seletz | hmmm. |
16:22:42 | seletz | NUMA i know of, but "cc"NUMA? |
16:23:03 | erikm | NUMA is Non Uniform Memory Architecture. the cc part is Cache Coherent |
16:23:08 | akira|work | hmm that explains why i don't know wither what SMP is :) |
16:23:15 | akira|work | same FH ;) |
16:23:26 | akira|work | s/wither/either |
16:23:46 | seletz | akira|work: you forgot the last slash :) |
16:23:50 | akira|work | <gotta adapt to the local language> |
16:23:52 | akira|work | dang |
16:23:59 | akira|work | :) |
16:24:25 | erikm | seletz: an sgi Origin 2000/3000 is a ccNUMA machine, while a beowulf cluster with mosix is more like a NUMA machine |
16:24:50 | seletz | erikm: ok. /me thinks the "cc" part is the hardest ... |
16:25:18 | seletz | erikm: how does it work? do they have _one_ 2nd level cache? |
16:25:22 | erikm | seletz: yes. ccNUMA is much easier for the programmer, but the disadvantage is that there is *lots* of cache update/invalidate traffic on the bus |
16:25:46 | seletz | erikm: or do the cpus talk to each other? |
16:25:48 | erikm | seletz: no, each CPU has its own L2 cache |
16:26:24 | seletz | seletz: man, that gets _heavy_ traffic |
16:26:45 | erikm | seletz: the origin series is organised with compute boards with 2 CPUs with each their own L2 cache and local memory. sort of an SMP machine on a single board |
16:27:32 | seletz | erikm: well, SGI/IRIX then does a goot job on balancing data/processes to minimize cache failures? |
16:27:39 | erikm | seletz: two of those boards can be connected together to make a 4-way ccNUMA machine. if you want more CPUs, you have to add routers to create a hypercube interconnect |
16:28:17 | seletz | erikm: hmm, the interconnects have to be _fast_ |
16:28:22 | erikm | seletz: and yes, the traffic is extreme |
16:28:38 | erikm | looks for the Origin2000 hardware shortform |
16:28:50 | erikm | hmm. not here. |
16:29:20 | erikm | IIRC, the speed to/from a nodeboard is 3.2GB/s (that's byte, not bit) |
16:30:01 | erikm | that is: for the origin2000. I don't know the specs for the 3000 series |
16:30:22 | seletz | erikm: i met the dev leader of IRIX/germany at the "linux tag" in frankfurt this spring. He told me that IRIS is not longer developed on, they'll use LINUX on their high-end machines. true or buzzwords? |
16:31:06 | seletz | s/IRIS/IRIX/ |
16:31:51 | seletz | hmm, that's not too fast, tough. |
16:32:12 | erikm | seletz: true. they will support IRIX on their MIPS line (origin 2000/3000 and onyx 2/3), but they'l switch to linux for their IA64 machines |
16:32:37 | erikm | seletz: it's faster than their memory subsystem |
16:32:43 | seletz | hmm. |
16:32:53 | erikm | seletz: it's also a *lot* faster than any PC does |
16:34:03 | seletz | erikm: hmm. i think about an modern, say 800Mhz CPU. Then i think about a interconnect at full CPU speed, then 32bit busses. |
16:34:22 | seletz | or even 64 bit. |
16:34:32 | seletz | erikm: is it a serial link? |
16:34:47 | erikm | seletz: ehm, we're talking over here about off-board interfaces, not about the 10cm from CPU to chipset |
16:35:13 | seletz | erikm: yes, a lot of interference. It's actually HF. |
16:35:26 | seletz | erikm: ok. i give in. its fast.... :) |
16:35:39 | seletz | erikm: and the connectors i forgot also... |
16:35:43 | erikm | seletz: FYI: current CPUs just start to do 2GB/s from CPU to chipset :) |
16:36:18 | seletz | erikm: ok, i'm not a hw guru at last .... |
16:36:22 | seletz | :) |
16:36:41 | erikm | seletz: I'm not sure if sgi uses serial interfaces. I think they'll do, using some kind of LVDS interface |
16:37:11 | erikm | seletz: their old PowerChallenge/Onyx used a 256 bits wide bus |
16:37:40 | seletz | erikm: btw, my admin is ATM sruggeling with lotus notes to deliver emails. :) |
16:37:55 | erikm | seletz: /me did electrical engineering :) |
16:37:57 | seletz | erikm: they switched to notes for _email_ |
16:38:03 | erikm | seletz: aargh! bloated notes! |
16:38:27 | seletz | erikm: the client takes 19MB RAM in no-op mode ... |
16:38:38 | erikm | seletz: friend of mine works at IBM and he *has* to use notes. |
16:38:48 | seletz | erikm: doesn't run anyway .... |
16:38:56 | seletz | erikm: oh my god. |
16:39:12 | seletz | erikm: guess he's to use the "calendar" a lut ... |
16:39:18 | seletz | s/lut/lot/ |
16:39:49 | erikm | seletz: it's actually quite expensive for IBM. notes databases tend to become large, and it's about 17US$/MB/year to maintain them, so... |
16:41:22 | seletz | erikm: btw, i'm ATM reading through a freeware ATA driver from SANDISK. Its written for DOS (...), but neatly documented. Perhaps I'll get it running within blob. |
16:41:56 | seletz | erikm: they provide this code as an ex for their CF cards. |
16:42:00 | erikm | seletz: btw, how are the pcmcia/ide patches going? |
16:42:20 | erikm | seletz: but CF memory cards *are* IDE....? |
16:42:32 | seletz | yup |
16:43:33 | seletz | the pcmcia code _seems_ to work, but i'm not sure. At last the cf card gets tetected, and the CIS tuples get read correctly. But the IDE part from brad does'nt work for me. |
16:43:45 | seletz | s/tet/det/ |
16:43:51 | erikm | seletz: so I'd think that as soon as brad's IDE stuff works, it should work for CF as well |
16:43:59 | seletz | yup |
16:44:15 | seletz | That's why i read through the sandisk code. |
16:44:26 | erikm | hmm. /me has a "normal" IDE disk connected to his LART |
16:44:33 | seletz | I think it's something with not resetting the CF card |
16:45:05 | seletz | Ok, when we have an IDE layer, you can access the HD within blob |
16:45:14 | erikm | seletz: the sa11x0 PCMCIA driver might give you some ideas |
16:45:19 | seletz | That's what im working on right now. |
16:45:22 | erikm | (in the linux kernel, I mean) |
16:45:28 | seletz | yup. |
16:45:34 | seletz | I read it. |
16:45:47 | akira|work | gonna eat some now... bbl |
16:46:03 | seletz | As i said, i think the PCMCIA part is fine. Just the IDE part is missing/buggy. |
16:46:03 | erikm | is gonna eat with lots of co workers in about 30 minutes |
16:46:17 | seletz | akira|work: Maahlzeit! |
16:46:18 | erikm | seletz: did you try it on an assabet? |
16:46:44 | erikm | seletz: just to rule out potential hardware bugs |
16:46:52 | seletz | erikm: no, i don't have an assabet any more. I used them up :) |
16:46:57 | erikm | :( |
16:47:21 | seletz | erikm: erm, i write this whole bunch of code to detect hw bugs. |
16:47:27 | erikm | lol :) |
16:47:58 | seletz | erikm: the linux pcmcia driver i ported to system3 hangs itself by locking irqs |
16:48:26 | seletz | erikm: but the hw guru says all's ok |
16:49:03 | erikm | hmm |
16:49:28 | seletz | erikm: so, i try to use the pcmcia/ide stuf in polling mode to test at last that the data/address busses are ok, and the sa1111 is ok etc |
16:50:49 | seletz | erikm: sadly enough the PT digital board doesnt deliver all lines for PCMCIA, so i have to fake them in the low-level sa1111 pcmcia stuff. |
16:51:14 | prpplague | seletz: you little faker you |
16:51:33 | seletz | erikm: (voltage selection stuff mainly) |
16:51:40 | seletz | prpplague: lol |
16:51:53 | erikm | seletz: LART also doesn't, so I just skipped that |
16:52:05 | erikm | seletz: actually, we use only three lines for PCMCIA |
16:52:23 | seletz | erikm: pt system 3 only delivers 3V3, no real pcmcia, no 12V |
16:52:33 | seletz | erikm: no 5V also |
16:52:35 | erikm | seletz: lart also doesn't |
16:52:46 | erikm | seletz: lart can only do 5V |
16:53:33 | erikm | seletz: not that we ever *tested* the hardware. I wrote a driver for Aleph1, they're programming the CPLD on the PCMCIA board |
16:53:47 | erikm | seletz: want me to send you the driver? |
16:54:02 | seletz | erikm: would be nice ... |
16:54:44 | seletz | erikm: know what the BVD lines are for? |
16:55:39 | erikm | Battery Voltage Detect. original PCMCIA standard allowed you to put in battery cards, IIRC |
16:56:03 | seletz | ok, i don't care of this either. |
16:56:45 | erikm | generates a diff |
16:57:55 | seletz | erikm: my pcmcia_get_socket_state() function fakes all lines whic i don't have: bvd*, vs_* |
16:58:51 | seletz | erikm: btw, i also applied the latest patch rmk sent on linux-kernel for sa1111 pcmcia stuff. I think it was back-ported from 2.5 .... |
16:59:06 | seletz | erikm: and changed my driver of course. |
16:59:59 | seletz | erikm: but no change: i always get "IRQ XXX locks up the system. disabled." |
17:00:09 | seletz | erikm: (forever and system hangs) |
17:00:57 | erikm | is glad that he uses riel's VM again in 2.4.17 |
17:01:07 | seletz | erikm: "cardctl status" works quite nice, tough. |
17:01:41 | seletz | updating kernel later ... |
17:02:18 | erikm | for ARM I'm still on 2.4.13-ac5-rmk2 |
17:03:04 | seletz | is using a 2.2.16 as a dev machine |
17:03:35 | erikm | but for PC I use 2.4.17. with rik van riel's VM, because I believe his VM is conceptually better than andrea's |
17:03:51 | erikm | seletz: ehm you should *really* upgrade to 2.2.20... |
17:04:09 | seletz | erikm: i know :) |
17:04:36 | seletz | erikm: i'll get a new machine the next two weeks or so |
17:04:55 | seletz | switches over to his own office in januar |
17:07:14 | seletz | erikm: just a strange idea: is it possible (for diag) to use irqs? |
17:07:17 | erikm | patch is on its way |
17:07:23 | seletz | thanks |
17:07:26 | erikm | in theory yes |
17:08:24 | erikm | starts cleaning up |
17:09:02 | erikm | cu tomorrow |
20:15:06 | Russ|werk | hmmm |
20:15:16 | Russ|werk | 16 week lead on 0.068ohm resitors... |
20:15:21 | Russ|werk | that's not happy |
20:17:15 | | 30.7692307692308 |
20:17:15 | Russ|werk | ibot: 100/(1.3 * 2.5) |
20:17:28 | | 0.0307692307692308 |
20:17:28 | Russ|werk | ibot: 100/(1.3 * 2.5)/1000 |
21:17:36 | | 0.333333333333333 |
21:17:36 | Russ|werk | ibot: (.1 * .1) / .03 |
21:18:22 | | 0.39999999996 |
21:18:22 | Russ|werk | ibot: .3333333333 * 1.20 |
21:18:51 | | 0.4 |
21:18:51 | BZFlag | ibot 1.20 / 3 |
21:19:36 | Russ|werk | hmmm...you think thats odd maybe? |
21:19:44 | Russ|werk | er, wait, nm |
21:20:03 | Russ|werk | I'm lazy |
21:22:38 | BZFlag | heh |