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| 10:57.59 | COVID-1984 | anyone know if SIP numbers are traceable? |
| 10:58.35 | COVID-1984 | i.e. if you keep your phone number on your website, you keep your SIP account logged in on your android, can an attacker get your IP from your phone number and track your approx location? |
| 11:21.28 | nbjoerg | COVID-1984: it depends on a variety of factors, but at least when using mobile carriers, I wouldn't worry about the ip at all |
| 11:21.59 | nbjoerg | COVID-1984: location tracking based on ip can be very rough, depending on the isp and the mobile networks are very aggressive when it comes to cgnat |
| 11:24.55 | COVID-1984 | nbjoerg: not worried just curious |
| 11:25.06 | COVID-1984 | of course the ISP and SIP provider (like voip.ms) could track you |
| 11:25.18 | COVID-1984 | However, I'm wondering if it is possible for anyone else to |
| 11:25.27 | COVID-1984 | idk much about SIP |
| 11:25.37 | COVID-1984 | This seems like the IRC chat with the most SIP knowledge |
| 11:27.22 | file | a phone number doesn't directly go to your phone, it goes to an upstream provider, who then goes to you so you can't map a phone number to an IP address without having access to their infrastructure |
| 11:28.02 | nbjoerg | file: in principle it could setup the media stream directly between the peers |
| 11:28.18 | nbjoerg | I'm not sure if any upstream provider does that |
| 11:28.34 | file | sure, noone does that though |
| 11:28.47 | file | and depending on things if you were on the same provider they might leak information - it depends |
| 11:29.38 | sibiria | some small chance it may end up in a Via header? |
| 11:30.11 | sibiria | or if the SIP portion at the phone rewrites the Contact header or so? |
| 11:30.35 | sibiria | i wouldn't worry about it myself either |
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| 11:37.22 | COVID-1984 | who knows what equipment people have these days... anyone with connects can probably buy that surveillance equipment to track you and mess with you if you say unpopular things. |
| 11:37.29 | Samot | No. |
| 11:37.35 | Samot | Let's just stop this right here. |
| 11:37.39 | Samot | That's not how any of this works. |
| 11:37.47 | COVID-1984 | I've made no claims about how anything works |
| 11:37.56 | COVID-1984 | I've just explained my motivation for asking |
| 11:38.00 | Samot | I was addressing the whole class. |
| 11:38.05 | COVID-1984 | I'm not in a class |
| 11:38.09 | COVID-1984 | No need to be condescending |
| 11:38.14 | Samot | I wasn't. |
| 11:38.21 | COVID-1984 | Yes. |
| 11:38.24 | COVID-1984 | You. |
| 11:38.26 | COVID-1984 | Are. |
| 11:38.27 | Samot | I'm stopping bad information from be flowed into a new user. |
| 11:38.38 | COVID-1984 | No. |
| 11:38.40 | COVID-1984 | You. |
| 11:38.40 | Samot | But sure, you want to be all tin foil hat about this you can. |
| 11:38.41 | COVID-1984 | Aren't. |
| 11:38.47 | COVID-1984 | So state the truth then |
| 11:38.52 | COVID-1984 | Instead of being a buzzkill |
| 11:39.14 | Samot | You're worrying about tracking and surveillance when there is no worry. |
| 11:39.14 | COVID-1984 | Right, first step: accuse everyone else of being conspiracy theorists for discussing things |
| 11:39.23 | COVID-1984 | You don't get to decide that |
| 11:39.27 | Samot | OK. |
| 11:39.34 | COVID-1984 | Ok, clearly we don't have to pay attention to you |
| 11:39.40 | Samot | Sure. |
| 11:39.44 | Samot | You don't have to at all. |
| 11:40.05 | sibiria | well this derailed quickly |
| 11:40.11 | COVID-1984 | file: Right, their infrastructure would have to suck... So the SIP protocol itself doesn't expose IPs, right? |
| 11:40.58 | file | SIP itself does, it embeds IP addresses in the signaling for multiple reasons |
| 11:41.00 | sibiria | it shows IP addresses in the headers, but nothing explicitly implies that the IP address of the handset is going to be in there |
| 11:41.21 | file | right, as to whether that is exposed or not within a provider system or a system in general is dependent on the properties of the system itself |
| 11:41.30 | Samot | sibiria: Contact address actually implies that. |
| 11:41.40 | Samot | sibiria: That's part of its job. |
| 11:41.40 | COVID-1984 | file: makes sense |
| 11:42.12 | Samot | sibiria: This is how you end up with contact locations being RFC1918 addresses because those are the real IPs of the devices. |
| 11:44.13 | COVID-1984 | I'm asking my SIP provider |
| 11:44.22 | COVID-1984 | Unlikely I'll get an engineer to answer tho |
| 11:46.52 | Samot | Well SIP providers are not tracking people. They can't track cell phones without a lot of needed equipment and they just don't care to do that. |
| 11:48.23 | COVID-1984 | of course the SIP provider has the IP of each customer's device |
| 11:48.38 | COVID-1984 | The question is about our public phone numbers |
| 11:48.53 | Samot | That will also depend on the SIP provider. |
| 11:48.54 | COVID-1984 | Like file & nbjoerg said, the client IPs should only be internal to their infrastructure |
| 11:49.05 | Samot | Most are wholesalers. |
| 11:49.07 | COVID-1984 | But I could see it getting exposed, idk. |
| 11:49.29 | Samot | So unless you really do your homework, they might not even have their own platforms or infrastucture. |
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| 11:55.10 | COVID-1984 | One would hope that understanding how SIP works would be enough to know if SIP servers expose internal IPs to external phone numbers |
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| 12:00.01 | nbjoerg | there are two major options here: native SIP-only connections and SIP-POTS briding. the latter is unlikely to leak IPs. the former can (e.g. from the Via header) if not sanitized. whether or not that is done depends on the setup |
| 12:00.20 | Samot | COVID-1984: There are no IPs to phone numbers. |
| 12:00.42 | Samot | COVID-1984: At best there could be routes to send them to and there could be multiple. |
| 12:01.05 | Samot | nbjoerg: What do you mean by sanitized? |
| 12:01.07 | COVID-1984 | Could just run a VPN on the SIP client side, I suppose |
| 12:01.47 | Samot | COVID-1984: So youre going to setup a VPN server for this or find a provider that supports it? |
| 12:02.25 | nbjoerg | like I said, in most cases the IP is useless for location anyway |
| 12:02.40 | Samot | Uhm, what? |
| 12:02.57 | Samot | You mean location as in GPS tracking or location as contact location? |
| 12:03.05 | nbjoerg | location as in GPS position |
| 12:03.40 | nbjoerg | depending on the ISP, you will end up in an area of a few hundred square kilometer at best |
| 12:03.57 | Samot | Well with 20 years experience at ISPs/carriers/providers...we are not GPS tracking you for funsies. |
| 12:04.01 | COVID-1984 | Samot: Just wanting to know theoretically... I realize (out loud) that I could just start the VPN on my phone so the IP address for my SIP client would appear in another country |
| 12:04.16 | Samot | COVID-1984: Your phone needs a VPN service. |
| 12:04.20 | COVID-1984 | I don't really care, but good to know if your physical phone address could be tracked down to an IP |
| 12:04.30 | Samot | COVID-1984: No. |
| 12:04.41 | Samot | COVID-1984: Only by documentation and records not by the IP itself. |
| 12:04.52 | COVID-1984 | and by physical phone number I mean a phone number provided via SIP provider |
| 12:05.04 | Samot | Phone numbers are not assigned IPs. |
| 12:05.31 | nbjoerg | you can ring a phone number and check if there is anything in the sip header |
| 12:05.44 | COVID-1984 | Yes I realize it isn't assigned an IP. The IP would be changing of a cell phone |
| 12:05.45 | nbjoerg | as discussed earlier. that's about it |
| 12:06.00 | nbjoerg | for a cell phone, ipv4 is completely meaningless |
| 12:06.01 | COVID-1984 | But any point in time, if the IP address does leak, then someone could potentially get it using the phone number |
| 12:06.13 | Samot | No, they cannnot. |
| 12:06.25 | nbjoerg | as I said, aggressive CGNAT makes it completely useless |
| 12:06.33 | COVID-1984 | nbjoerg: what tool would be used to test / check the SIP header? |
| 12:06.50 | nbjoerg | check the debug options of your softphone if it can show them |
| 12:07.28 | Samot | So who are we worried this IP is going to leak to? |
| 12:08.49 | COVID-1984 | Really? |
| 12:08.51 | COVID-1984 | really... |
| 12:08.56 | Samot | Oh boy. |
| 12:09.01 | COVID-1984 | I'm starting to think people who ask that are sick in the head |
| 12:09.05 | COVID-1984 | You wanna hear juicy details? |
| 12:09.13 | COVID-1984 | What are you hoping I'll dox myself? |
| 12:09.15 | Samot | Well since I know what it would take to do this. Yes. |
| 12:09.17 | COVID-1984 | Makes no sense to ask |
| 12:09.22 | Samot | I don't care to ask about your name |
| 12:09.35 | Samot | I'm asking how are these bad actors going to get this information? |
| 12:09.47 | COVID-1984 | That is what you and the other described about |
| 12:09.57 | Samot | They did so out of context. |
| 12:10.06 | COVID-1984 | the potential of any actors getting IPs using phone numbers via SIP protocol & infra idiosynchrasies |
| 12:10.08 | Samot | No one can just through up a debug to track details. |
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| 12:11.16 | Samot | COVID-1984: I think what you're failing to grasp is, SIP bad actors don't really care about inbound calls. |
| 12:11.34 | Samot | COVID-1984: They want outbound traffic to hack, which doesn't involve phone numbers at all. |
| 12:12.18 | nbjoerg | Samot: there are different kinds of bad actors |
| 12:12.24 | Samot | Such as? |
| 12:12.48 | COVID-1984 | Samot: idk about SIP bad actors, I'm just wondering what can be gotten using the knowledge of a phone number |
| 12:12.58 | Samot | Almost nothing. |
| 12:13.02 | Samot | Literally almost nothing. |
| 12:13.06 | nbjoerg | there are semi-legal commercial tracking services for example; completely different category compared to toll abuse |
| 12:13.22 | COVID-1984 | I figured that when I set it up, however private investigators often get an impressive amount of info on people using only a phone number |
| 12:13.22 | nbjoerg | I fully agree with that semtiment, btw |
| 12:13.24 | Samot | Tracking for what? |
| 12:13.40 | COVID-1984 | So transfering one's # to a SIP provider either makes that better or worse (privacy-wise) |
| 12:13.43 | nbjoerg | Samot: (GPS) position tracking "spouse finders" |
| 12:13.43 | Samot | COVID-1984: You mean how they did before SIP? |
| 12:13.56 | Samot | nbjoerg: We're talking about SIP providers. |
| 12:13.57 | nbjoerg | COVID-1984: it has little to no impact |
| 12:14.03 | COVID-1984 | Samot: how private investigators got this info? idk... im sure they have many tricks |
| 12:14.14 | Samot | COVID-1984: They have contacts at a phone company? |
| 12:14.27 | Samot | COVID-1984: P.I.'s were doing what you said before SIP. |
| 12:14.27 | COVID-1984 | is that how its done? |
| 12:14.32 | COVID-1984 | Samot: yes I realize that |
| 12:14.36 | nbjoerg | arguably, sip is much better than a cell phone number |
| 12:14.44 | Samot | I have no clue how the individual P.I.'s cultivate their contacts. |
| 12:14.45 | Samot | Seriously. |
| 12:14.46 | COVID-1984 | Like I said, transfering one's number to a SIP provider either increase or decreases one's privacy |
| 12:14.54 | COVID-1984 | nbjoerg: that's what I was thinking |
| 12:14.55 | Samot | It does niether. |
| 12:15.26 | COVID-1984 | Samot: my understanding is in line with nbjoerg's so far, it seems. |
| 12:15.28 | nbjoerg | the celluar network has terrible security, it has been and still is an afterthought at best |
| 12:15.40 | nbjoerg | you don't have that problem with sip |
| 12:15.52 | Samot | haha. |
| 12:16.11 | Samot | I've seen some really bad SIP providers. |
| 12:16.12 | nbjoerg | (and yes, I'm aware of the issues of SIP, but it is still much better) |
| 12:16.59 | COVID-1984 | The proprietary tools investigators use to track people's phones are probably more tailored to standard setups (cell networks) rather than SIP networks. |
| 12:17.16 | nbjoerg | COVID-1984: no, that has nothing to do with it |
| 12:17.30 | Samot | COVID-1984: That's because the phones are on the cell networks. Kind of a big factor. |
| 12:17.42 | nbjoerg | cell phone networks are just extremely terrible at any kind of security or privacy |
| 12:17.56 | Samot | Are they? |
| 12:18.01 | Samot | Cool. |
| 12:21.04 | COVID-1984 | nbjoerg: I'm not saying teh cause of why cell networks are bad, I'm just stating another factor concerning why SIP networks might be better for privacy |
| 12:21.17 | Samot | They are neither better or worse |
| 12:21.32 | Samot | Because at the end of the day it comes down to who is actually doing what. |
| 12:22.02 | Samot | SIP provider A (like me) may have everything locked down hard. While SIP provider B is just some dumbass with FreePBX and a VoIP.ms account. |
| 12:22.13 | Samot | Doesn't understand networking or security |
| 12:22.28 | Samot | Doesn't really understand SIP but hey mom, he's a provider now. |
| 12:23.02 | Samot | SIP Provider B is going to be horrible at both security and privacy because they don't understand either. |
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| 12:26.10 | Samot | Then, of course, with cellular you do have those things like RedPocket (or whoever) that are MVNO (Mobile Virtual Network Operators). Much like many SIP providers they are using someone else network for that. |
| 12:26.14 | COVID-1984 | I use voip.ms |
| 12:26.22 | COVID-1984 | It seems to have a good reputation |
| 12:26.23 | Samot | Yeah, I wouldn't. |
| 12:26.46 | Samot | COVID-1984: From the outside sure. But many of the users are still wondering why they have disclosed the hack from last year. |
| 12:27.03 | Samot | Or they haven't disclosed the full extent. |
| 12:27.24 | COVID-1984 | I would happily change to any SIP provider that can receive SMS shortcodes, since voipms can't |
| 12:27.29 | sibiria | COVID-1984: if you are worried about the vendor part, there are such that work strictly towards no logging, no keeping of customer details etc. |
| 12:27.40 | sibiria | for VLNs that can forward calls and SMSes |
| 12:28.01 | COVID-1984 | sibiria: any recommendations? |
| 12:28.31 | COVID-1984 | I've not seen any claims so far about reliably receiving shortcodes, and that is what I'm still missing from Google Voice (which couldn't officially receive them, but it did work). |
| 12:30.58 | Samot | Well the Short Code game is about to change in 2 months. |
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| 12:33.08 | Samot | There will be no more Shared Short Codes in the US as of June 1st. |
| 12:33.27 | Samot | Everyone with those needs to move to 10DLC SMS numbers. |
| 12:34.07 | Samot | The only Short Codes that will continue to work are dedicated short codes. |
| 12:36.01 | COVID-1984 | so airbnb, uber, banks... who all send SMS shortcodes to login -> they're going to stop using SMS or move to 10DLC SMS? |
| 12:36.11 | COVID-1984 | Does that mean they'll all work on SIP providers? |
| 12:36.42 | Samot | If they used a shared code, yes. They need to move to 10DLC |
| 12:36.49 | Samot | Perhaps |
| 12:36.50 | aoeui | Lots of companies like that believe that SIP providers are untrustworthy, and require phone numbers associated with accounts to come from mobile carriers |
| 12:37.13 | aoeui | So even if you find a provider with shortcode support, Uber or your bank might not like your number |
| 12:37.21 | aoeui | Or they might decide to block you tomorrow |
| 12:37.25 | sibiria | COVID-1984: unfortunately i cannot recall the names of any besides smsprivacy.org. it's been a while since i last searched, but when i did i could find more than a few |
| 12:37.54 | COVID-1984 | I stay away from those privacy-specific ones |
| 12:37.59 | COVID-1984 | They seem like honeypots |
| 12:38.17 | aoeui | What are you concerned with COVID-1984? Who are you trying to protect yourself from? |
| 12:38.21 | COVID-1984 | Same with protonmail |
| 12:38.42 | COVID-1984 | aoeui: I was just chatting in here today to understand if phone numbers posted publicly |
| 12:38.54 | COVID-1984 | Which are SIP phone numbers, could leak the user's IP. |
| 12:38.57 | sibiria | then perhaps you should just use regular communication channels, but do all your web surfing through a vpn off the end of a tor connection |
| 12:39.05 | Samot | You mean like in phone books? |
| 12:39.12 | COVID-1984 | ya or posted on your website |
| 12:39.15 | COVID-1984 | or linkedin |
| 12:39.24 | COVID-1984 | I leave my phone number in many emails too |
| 12:39.32 | Samot | So do a lot of people |
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| 12:44.53 | Samot | COVID-1984: See for the most part SIP is treated like traditional voice. So the majorly high majority of SIP accounts are what as known as "fixed devices" |
| 12:45.05 | Samot | COVID-1984: Meaning, they don't move. Desk phones, PBX systems, etc. |
| 12:46.39 | Samot | Plus come Jan. 2022 I'm sure how SIP providers handle "non-fixed" aka softphones and such will have a major hit in the US. |
| 12:51.23 | COVID-1984 | I just use the typical phone app in Android which has a SIP feature |
| 12:51.32 | COVID-1984 | I haven't seen any good comparisons on softphone apps |
| 12:51.39 | COVID-1984 | They seem pretty similar to each other |
| 12:53.23 | Samot | In some ways, yes. Most basic ways but they are not all the same. |
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| 13:46.41 | LiuYan | sibiria: Thanks again for your suggestion a week ago, which using MASTER_CHANNEL() to get information of original channel after asterisk create a Local channel after received 302 response from phone, it works! |
| 13:48.51 | sibiria | glad to hear it |
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| 15:00.55 | igcewieling | I'm starting to wonder if very person in the United States will be employed in the Health Care industry in a few decades. |
| 15:11.36 | seanbright | yes |
| 15:27.13 | igcewieling | It would have happened with telephone operators if they didn't find a way to mechanically route calls without a human involved. |
| 15:29.22 | Samot | Everyone would be employed as telephone operators? |
| 15:29.26 | Samot | That would be a boring job. |
| 15:29.47 | Samot | Since there would be no other real works to make calls from other places. What would they be routing? |
| 15:29.54 | Samot | workers. |
| 15:39.04 | igcewieling | indeed. |
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| 17:29.32 | jploh | just picked up on the Google Lyra ML-optimized codec. i'm not a C dev but anyone got the chance to look at the codec API? is it fairly doable to add as a channel? |
| 17:40.49 | drmessano | Lyra is a codec, you wouldn't add as a channel |
| 17:49.00 | jploh | yes, sorry. I mean to add it as a codec. got too excited |
| 17:49.41 | Kobaz | So I think it's broke again |
| 17:50.08 | Kobaz | Let me see... so I have phones that are registering over and over and asterisk/pjsip is not responding to them (not firewalled/blocked either) |
| 17:50.20 | Kobaz | Last time I turned on pjsip logger and the whole thing locked up, so we'll see if that happens again |
| 18:23.03 | Kobaz | Okay it didn't die when i turned on logging, that's good |
| 18:33.17 | Samot | What did you find? |
| 18:35.56 | Kobaz | Well, at the time I checked it wasn't firewalled :P... but then it got re-added... so it was that. False alarm |
| 18:36.12 | Kobaz | But this was very very similar behavior to when pjsip just gave up and stopped handling traffic entirely, last wee |
| 18:36.32 | Kobaz | Customer tripping security rules and got blocked, so... We're all good now |
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| 19:38.23 | Samot | And 7 digit dialing is official dead. |
| 19:39.43 | Kobaz | peopel still want it... all over |
| 19:43.03 | igcewieling | Kobaz: then they can handle it locally and send the proper 10/11 digits to the carrier |
| 19:43.12 | Kobaz | oh, well yeah of course |
| 19:47.44 | Samot | Kobaz: You can't anymore. |
| 19:47.57 | Samot | As of Oct 24th 2021 7 digit is official dead. |
| 19:48.12 | Samot | FCC proclaims they cannot be completed. |
| 19:48.19 | Samot | 988 is coming into use. |
| 19:48.47 | Samot | There are 82 NPA's with no overlay and have 988 NXX's. |
| 19:49.08 | Samot | 616 in Michigan has 616-988-XXXX |
| 19:49.28 | Samot | 988 will complete to the suicide prevention lifeline |
| 19:50.09 | Kobaz | Right |
| 19:50.14 | Samot | igcewieling: No, I can't solve this by prepending an area code anymore. |
| 19:50.45 | Samot | April 24th 2021 is when this starts. Between that and Oct 24th, 7 digit can still complete. |
| 19:51.09 | Samot | Come Oct 24th, FCC states all 7-digit dialing must not complete. |
| 19:54.59 | Samot | Verizon has already informed their customers, I had a few with just Internet get notices as well. |
| 19:55.21 | Samot | This was just published March 30th. |
| 19:55.30 | Samot | https://www.fcc.gov/document/fact-sheet-988-suicide-prevention-lifeline-10-digit-dialing |
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| 20:21.26 | drmessano | 987 is the PFSense prevention hotline |
| 20:21.41 | igcewieling | I never allowed 7 digits dialing anyway. |
| 20:23.03 | Samot | I am markets where it is supported |
| 20:23.34 | Samot | +in |
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