IRC log for #asterisk on 20210406

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10:57.59COVID-1984anyone know if SIP numbers are traceable?
10:58.35COVID-1984i.e. if you keep your phone number on your website, you keep your SIP account logged in on your android, can an attacker get your IP from your phone number and track your approx location?
11:21.28nbjoergCOVID-1984: it depends on a variety of factors, but at least when using mobile carriers, I wouldn't worry about the ip at all
11:21.59nbjoergCOVID-1984: location tracking based on ip can be very rough, depending on the isp and the mobile networks are very aggressive when it comes to cgnat
11:24.55COVID-1984nbjoerg: not worried just curious
11:25.06COVID-1984of course the ISP and SIP provider (like voip.ms) could track you
11:25.18COVID-1984However, I'm wondering if it is possible for anyone else to
11:25.27COVID-1984idk much about SIP
11:25.37COVID-1984This seems like the IRC chat with the most SIP knowledge
11:27.22filea phone number doesn't directly go to your phone, it goes to an upstream provider, who then goes to you so you can't map a phone number to an IP address without having access to their infrastructure
11:28.02nbjoergfile: in principle it could setup the media stream directly between the peers
11:28.18nbjoergI'm not sure if any upstream provider does that
11:28.34filesure, noone does that though
11:28.47fileand depending on things if you were on the same provider they might leak information - it depends
11:29.38sibiriasome small chance it may end up in a Via header?
11:30.11sibiriaor if the SIP portion at the phone rewrites the Contact header or so?
11:30.35sibiriai wouldn't worry about it myself either
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11:37.22COVID-1984who knows what equipment people have these days... anyone with connects can probably buy that surveillance equipment to track you and mess with you if you say unpopular things.
11:37.29SamotNo.
11:37.35SamotLet's just stop this right here.
11:37.39SamotThat's not how any of this works.
11:37.47COVID-1984I've made no claims about how anything works
11:37.56COVID-1984I've just explained my motivation for asking
11:38.00SamotI was addressing the whole class.
11:38.05COVID-1984I'm not in a class
11:38.09COVID-1984No need to be condescending
11:38.14SamotI wasn't.
11:38.21COVID-1984Yes.
11:38.24COVID-1984You.
11:38.26COVID-1984Are.
11:38.27SamotI'm stopping bad information from be flowed into a new user.
11:38.38COVID-1984No.
11:38.40COVID-1984You.
11:38.40SamotBut sure, you want to be all tin foil hat about this you can.
11:38.41COVID-1984Aren't.
11:38.47COVID-1984So state the truth then
11:38.52COVID-1984Instead of being a buzzkill
11:39.14SamotYou're worrying about tracking and surveillance when there is no worry.
11:39.14COVID-1984Right, first step: accuse everyone else of being conspiracy theorists for discussing things
11:39.23COVID-1984You don't get to decide that
11:39.27SamotOK.
11:39.34COVID-1984Ok, clearly we don't have to pay attention to you
11:39.40SamotSure.
11:39.44SamotYou don't have to at all.
11:40.05sibiriawell this derailed quickly
11:40.11COVID-1984file: Right, their infrastructure would have to suck... So the SIP protocol itself doesn't expose IPs, right?
11:40.58fileSIP itself does, it embeds IP addresses in the signaling for multiple reasons
11:41.00sibiriait shows IP addresses in the headers, but nothing explicitly implies that the IP address of the handset is going to be in there
11:41.21fileright, as to whether that is exposed or not within a provider system or a system in general is dependent on the properties of the system itself
11:41.30Samotsibiria: Contact address actually implies that.
11:41.40Samotsibiria: That's part of its job.
11:41.40COVID-1984file: makes sense
11:42.12Samotsibiria: This is how you end up with contact locations being RFC1918 addresses because those are the real IPs of the devices.
11:44.13COVID-1984I'm asking my SIP provider
11:44.22COVID-1984Unlikely I'll get an engineer to answer tho
11:46.52SamotWell SIP providers are not tracking people. They can't track cell phones without a lot of needed equipment and they just don't care to do that.
11:48.23COVID-1984of course the SIP provider has the IP of each customer's device
11:48.38COVID-1984The question is about our public phone numbers
11:48.53SamotThat will also depend on the SIP provider.
11:48.54COVID-1984Like file & nbjoerg said, the client IPs should only be internal to their infrastructure
11:49.05SamotMost are wholesalers.
11:49.07COVID-1984But I could see it getting exposed, idk.
11:49.29SamotSo unless you really do your homework, they might not even have their own platforms or infrastucture.
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11:55.10COVID-1984One would hope that understanding how SIP works would be enough to know if SIP servers expose internal IPs to external phone numbers
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12:00.01nbjoergthere are two major options here: native SIP-only connections and SIP-POTS briding. the latter is unlikely to leak IPs. the former can (e.g. from the Via header) if not sanitized. whether or not that is done depends on the setup
12:00.20SamotCOVID-1984: There are no IPs to phone numbers.
12:00.42SamotCOVID-1984: At best there could be routes to send them to and there could be multiple.
12:01.05Samotnbjoerg: What do you mean by sanitized?
12:01.07COVID-1984Could just run a VPN on the SIP client side, I suppose
12:01.47SamotCOVID-1984: So youre going to setup a VPN server for this or find a provider that supports it?
12:02.25nbjoerglike I said, in most cases the IP is useless for location anyway
12:02.40SamotUhm, what?
12:02.57SamotYou mean location as in GPS tracking or location as contact location?
12:03.05nbjoerglocation as in GPS position
12:03.40nbjoergdepending on the ISP, you will end up in an area of a few hundred square kilometer at best
12:03.57SamotWell with 20 years experience at ISPs/carriers/providers...we are not GPS tracking you for funsies.
12:04.01COVID-1984Samot: Just wanting to know theoretically... I realize (out loud) that I could just start the VPN on my phone so the IP address for my SIP client would appear in another country
12:04.16SamotCOVID-1984: Your phone needs a VPN service.
12:04.20COVID-1984I don't really care, but good to know if your physical phone address could be tracked down to an IP
12:04.30SamotCOVID-1984: No.
12:04.41SamotCOVID-1984: Only by documentation and records not by the IP itself.
12:04.52COVID-1984and by physical phone number I mean a phone number provided via SIP provider
12:05.04SamotPhone numbers are not assigned IPs.
12:05.31nbjoergyou can ring a phone number and check if there is anything in the sip header
12:05.44COVID-1984Yes I realize it isn't assigned an IP. The IP would be changing of a cell phone
12:05.45nbjoergas discussed earlier. that's about it
12:06.00nbjoergfor a cell phone, ipv4 is completely meaningless
12:06.01COVID-1984But any point in time, if the IP address does leak, then someone could potentially get it using the phone number
12:06.13SamotNo, they cannnot.
12:06.25nbjoergas I said, aggressive CGNAT makes it completely useless
12:06.33COVID-1984nbjoerg: what tool would be used to test / check the SIP header?
12:06.50nbjoergcheck the debug options of your softphone if it can show them
12:07.28SamotSo who are we worried this IP is going to leak to?
12:08.49COVID-1984Really?
12:08.51COVID-1984really...
12:08.56SamotOh boy.
12:09.01COVID-1984I'm starting to think people who ask that are sick in the head
12:09.05COVID-1984You wanna hear juicy details?
12:09.13COVID-1984What are you hoping I'll dox myself?
12:09.15SamotWell since I know what it would take to do this. Yes.
12:09.17COVID-1984Makes no sense to ask
12:09.22SamotI don't care to ask about your name
12:09.35SamotI'm asking how are these bad actors going to get this information?
12:09.47COVID-1984That is what you and the other described about
12:09.57SamotThey did so out of context.
12:10.06COVID-1984the potential of any actors getting IPs using phone numbers via SIP protocol & infra idiosynchrasies
12:10.08SamotNo one can just through up a debug to track details.
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12:11.16SamotCOVID-1984: I think what you're failing to grasp is, SIP bad actors don't really care about inbound calls.
12:11.34SamotCOVID-1984: They want outbound traffic to hack, which doesn't involve phone numbers at all.
12:12.18nbjoergSamot: there are different kinds of bad actors
12:12.24SamotSuch as?
12:12.48COVID-1984Samot: idk about SIP bad actors, I'm just wondering what can be gotten using the knowledge of a phone number
12:12.58SamotAlmost nothing.
12:13.02SamotLiterally almost nothing.
12:13.06nbjoergthere are semi-legal commercial tracking services for example; completely different category compared to toll abuse
12:13.22COVID-1984I figured that when I set it up, however private investigators often get an impressive amount of info on people using only a phone number
12:13.22nbjoergI fully agree with that semtiment, btw
12:13.24SamotTracking for what?
12:13.40COVID-1984So transfering one's # to a SIP provider either makes that better or worse (privacy-wise)
12:13.43nbjoergSamot: (GPS) position tracking "spouse finders"
12:13.43SamotCOVID-1984: You mean how they did before SIP?
12:13.56Samotnbjoerg: We're talking about SIP providers.
12:13.57nbjoergCOVID-1984: it has little to no impact
12:14.03COVID-1984Samot: how private investigators got this info? idk... im sure they have many tricks
12:14.14SamotCOVID-1984: They have contacts at a phone company?
12:14.27SamotCOVID-1984: P.I.'s were doing what you said before SIP.
12:14.27COVID-1984is that how its done?
12:14.32COVID-1984Samot: yes I realize that
12:14.36nbjoergarguably, sip is much better than a cell phone number
12:14.44SamotI have no clue how the individual P.I.'s cultivate their contacts.
12:14.45SamotSeriously.
12:14.46COVID-1984Like I said, transfering one's number to a SIP provider either increase or decreases one's privacy
12:14.54COVID-1984nbjoerg: that's what I was thinking
12:14.55SamotIt does niether.
12:15.26COVID-1984Samot: my understanding is in line with nbjoerg's so far, it seems.
12:15.28nbjoergthe celluar network has terrible security, it has been and still is an afterthought at best
12:15.40nbjoergyou don't have that problem with sip
12:15.52Samothaha.
12:16.11SamotI've seen some really bad SIP providers.
12:16.12nbjoerg(and yes, I'm aware of the issues of SIP, but it is still much better)
12:16.59COVID-1984The proprietary tools investigators use to track people's phones are probably more tailored to standard setups (cell networks) rather than SIP networks.
12:17.16nbjoergCOVID-1984: no, that has nothing to do with it
12:17.30SamotCOVID-1984: That's because the phones are on the cell networks. Kind of a big factor.
12:17.42nbjoergcell phone networks are just extremely terrible at any kind of security or privacy
12:17.56SamotAre they?
12:18.01SamotCool.
12:21.04COVID-1984nbjoerg: I'm not saying teh cause of why cell networks are bad, I'm just stating another factor concerning why SIP networks might be better for privacy
12:21.17SamotThey are neither better or worse
12:21.32SamotBecause at the end of the day it comes down to who is actually doing what.
12:22.02SamotSIP provider A (like me) may have everything locked down hard. While SIP provider B is just some dumbass with FreePBX and a VoIP.ms account.
12:22.13SamotDoesn't understand networking or security
12:22.28SamotDoesn't really understand SIP but hey mom, he's a provider now.
12:23.02SamotSIP Provider B is going to be horrible at both security and privacy because they don't understand either.
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12:26.10SamotThen, of course, with cellular you do have those things like RedPocket (or whoever) that are MVNO (Mobile Virtual Network Operators). Much like many SIP providers they are using someone else network for that.
12:26.14COVID-1984I use voip.ms
12:26.22COVID-1984It seems to have a good reputation
12:26.23SamotYeah, I wouldn't.
12:26.46SamotCOVID-1984: From the outside sure. But many of the users are still wondering why they have disclosed the hack from last year.
12:27.03SamotOr they haven't disclosed the full extent.
12:27.24COVID-1984I would happily change to any SIP provider that can receive SMS shortcodes, since voipms can't
12:27.29sibiriaCOVID-1984: if you are worried about the vendor part, there are such that work strictly towards no logging, no keeping of customer details etc.
12:27.40sibiriafor VLNs that can forward calls and SMSes
12:28.01COVID-1984sibiria: any recommendations?
12:28.31COVID-1984I've not seen any claims so far about reliably receiving shortcodes, and that is what I'm still missing from Google Voice (which couldn't officially receive them, but it did work).
12:30.58SamotWell the Short Code game is about to change in 2 months.
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12:33.08SamotThere will be no more Shared Short Codes in the US as of June 1st.
12:33.27SamotEveryone with those needs to move to 10DLC SMS numbers.
12:34.07SamotThe only Short Codes that will continue to work are dedicated short codes.
12:36.01COVID-1984so airbnb, uber, banks... who all send SMS shortcodes to login -> they're going to stop using SMS or move to 10DLC SMS?
12:36.11COVID-1984Does that mean they'll all work on SIP providers?
12:36.42SamotIf they used a shared code, yes. They need to move to 10DLC
12:36.49SamotPerhaps
12:36.50aoeuiLots of companies like that believe that SIP providers are untrustworthy, and require phone numbers associated with accounts to come from mobile carriers
12:37.13aoeuiSo even if you find a provider with shortcode support, Uber or your bank might not like your number
12:37.21aoeuiOr they might decide to block you tomorrow
12:37.25sibiriaCOVID-1984: unfortunately i cannot recall the names of any besides smsprivacy.org. it's been a while since i last searched, but when i did i could find more than a few
12:37.54COVID-1984I stay away from those privacy-specific ones
12:37.59COVID-1984They seem like honeypots
12:38.17aoeuiWhat are you concerned with COVID-1984? Who are you trying to protect yourself from?
12:38.21COVID-1984Same with protonmail
12:38.42COVID-1984aoeui: I was just chatting in here today to understand if phone numbers posted publicly
12:38.54COVID-1984Which are SIP phone numbers, could leak the user's IP.
12:38.57sibiriathen perhaps you should just use regular communication channels, but do all your web surfing through a vpn off the end of a tor connection
12:39.05SamotYou mean like in phone books?
12:39.12COVID-1984ya or posted on your website
12:39.15COVID-1984or linkedin
12:39.24COVID-1984I leave my phone number in many emails too
12:39.32SamotSo do a lot of people
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12:44.53SamotCOVID-1984: See for the most part SIP is treated like traditional voice. So the majorly high majority of SIP accounts are  what as known as "fixed devices"
12:45.05SamotCOVID-1984: Meaning, they don't move. Desk phones, PBX systems, etc.
12:46.39SamotPlus come Jan. 2022 I'm sure how SIP providers handle "non-fixed" aka softphones and such will have a major hit in the US.
12:51.23COVID-1984I just use the typical phone app in Android which has a SIP feature
12:51.32COVID-1984I haven't seen any good comparisons on softphone apps
12:51.39COVID-1984They seem pretty similar to each other
12:53.23SamotIn some ways, yes. Most basic ways but they are not all the same.
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13:46.41LiuYansibiria: Thanks again for your suggestion a week ago, which using MASTER_CHANNEL() to get information of original channel after asterisk create a Local channel after received 302 response from phone, it works!
13:48.51sibiriaglad to hear it
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15:00.55igcewielingI'm starting to wonder if very person in the United States will be employed in the Health Care industry in a few decades.
15:11.36seanbrightyes
15:27.13igcewielingIt would have happened with telephone operators if they didn't find a way to mechanically route calls without a human involved.
15:29.22SamotEveryone would be employed as telephone operators?
15:29.26SamotThat would be a boring job.
15:29.47SamotSince there would be no other real works to make calls from other places. What would they be routing?
15:29.54Samotworkers.
15:39.04igcewielingindeed.
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17:29.32jplohjust picked up on the Google Lyra ML-optimized codec. i'm not a C dev but anyone got the chance to look at the codec API? is it fairly doable to add as a channel?
17:40.49drmessanoLyra is a codec, you wouldn't add as a channel
17:49.00jplohyes, sorry. I mean to add it as a codec. got too excited
17:49.41KobazSo I think it's broke again
17:50.08KobazLet me see... so I have phones that are registering over and over and asterisk/pjsip is not responding to them (not firewalled/blocked either)
17:50.20KobazLast time I turned on pjsip logger and the whole thing locked up, so we'll see if that happens again
18:23.03KobazOkay it didn't die when i turned on logging, that's good
18:33.17SamotWhat did you find?
18:35.56KobazWell, at the time I checked it wasn't firewalled :P... but then it got re-added... so it was that.  False alarm
18:36.12KobazBut this was very very similar behavior to when pjsip just gave up and stopped handling traffic entirely, last wee
18:36.32KobazCustomer tripping security rules and got blocked, so... We're all good now
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19:38.23SamotAnd 7 digit dialing is official dead.
19:39.43Kobazpeopel still want it... all over
19:43.03igcewielingKobaz: then they can handle it locally and send the proper 10/11 digits to the carrier
19:43.12Kobazoh, well yeah of course
19:47.44SamotKobaz: You can't anymore.
19:47.57SamotAs of Oct 24th 2021 7 digit is official dead.
19:48.12SamotFCC proclaims they cannot be completed.
19:48.19Samot988 is coming into use.
19:48.47SamotThere are 82 NPA's with no overlay and have 988 NXX's.
19:49.08Samot616 in Michigan has 616-988-XXXX
19:49.28Samot988 will complete to the suicide prevention lifeline
19:50.09KobazRight
19:50.14Samotigcewieling: No, I can't solve this by prepending an area code anymore.
19:50.45SamotApril 24th 2021 is when this starts. Between that and Oct 24th, 7 digit can still complete.
19:51.09SamotCome Oct 24th, FCC states all 7-digit dialing must not complete.
19:54.59SamotVerizon has already informed their customers, I had a few with just Internet get notices as well.
19:55.21SamotThis was just published March 30th.
19:55.30Samothttps://www.fcc.gov/document/fact-sheet-988-suicide-prevention-lifeline-10-digit-dialing
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20:21.26drmessano987 is the PFSense prevention hotline
20:21.41igcewielingI never allowed 7 digits dialing anyway.
20:23.03SamotI am markets where it is supported
20:23.34Samot+in
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22:58.56*** join/#asterisk akp55 (~akp55@c-73-148-15-158.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
23:41.10*** join/#asterisk opal (~wowaname@volatile/founder/wowaname)

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