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| 00:18.55 | *** topic/#asterisk is #asterisk The Open Source PBX and Telephony Platform (asterisk.org) -=- LTS: 13.21.0 (2018/05/01), Standard: 15.4.0 (2018/05/01); DAHDI: DAHDI-linux 2.11.1 (2016/03/01), DAHDI-tools 2.11.1 (2016/03/01); libpri 1.6.0 (2017/01/27) -=- Wiki: wiki.asterisk.org -=- Code of Conduct: bit.ly/1hH6P22 -=- Logs: bit.ly/1s4AKKu |
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| 01:20.40 | Samot | Uhm, if the peer doesn't register is it online? |
| 01:21.00 | Samot | Because polling the mailbox is pointless if they aren't online. |
| 01:26.21 | Samot | Also, how does one store voicemail with LDAP? I don't think that's possible. |
| 01:28.43 | Samot | beight0: ^^^^ |
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| 05:59.42 | tengulre | anybody here ? |
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| 07:32.29 | dan_j | What are people's thoughts on Counterpath remotely disabling purchased eyeBeam licenses due to it now being 'end of life' ? Surely that's a disgusting way to carry out business. |
| 07:32.53 | dan_j | Putting a kill switch in software that you are selling 'perpetual' licenses for. |
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| 07:38.57 | wekuo | I want to setup asterisk so that I can call otheruser@remotedomain.com and so that otheruser@remotedomain.com (for all remotedomains not just a whitelist) can call me@mydomain.com. I want to auth with user/pass and I don't care about phone numbers. Can someone point me to how to set this up right place for setting this up? Been looking at the samples but it's just so confusing with all the options |
| 07:40.58 | wekuo | oh and my phone will be natted and it would be nice if the server could help it nat punch instead of proxying the audio |
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| 11:29.36 | Samot | On March 23, 2015, CounterPath announced that eyeBeam will no longer be updated. |
| 11:29.46 | Samot | dan_j: ^^^ That should be considered. |
| 11:30.36 | Samot | On May 8, 2018, CounterPath announced that eyeBeam will no longer function after May 5, 2019. <-- As should that. So no, Counterpath is not just remotely disabling licenses due to EOL. There's a one year window. |
| 11:31.36 | dan_j | This is software which people pay for and decide for themselves whether they are ok with the fact that no new updates are released. |
| 11:31.51 | dan_j | Their software shouldnt just stop working. |
| 11:32.30 | dan_j | Imagine buying a car. Then since the manufacturer wants to stop making spare parts, they disable all functional cars of that model. |
| 11:33.32 | dan_j | Doesnt matter how much notice they give, people thought they were paying for a perpetual license. Not a 5 year license. |
| 11:35.13 | Samot | It's a 12 year old piece of software. |
| 11:37.06 | Samot | And unlike Bria, it had a free version of itself which is what most people installed. |
| 11:37.10 | Samot | Because they are cheap. |
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| 11:49.44 | Samot | Also, their EULA covers this. So people have agreed to it. |
| 11:50.01 | Samot | Well the ToS covers this. |
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| 16:05.04 | dan_j | Samot: eyeBeam was never free. X-Lite was the free version and had separate agreements to eyebeam. |
| 16:05.19 | Samot | Sure. |
| 16:05.26 | dan_j | Annoyingly, their general terms do mention software license agreements, but they dont seem to publish them anywhere |
| 16:05.31 | Samot | But again, their Terms of Use covers this. |
| 16:05.40 | Samot | I found them right on their website. |
| 16:05.45 | dan_j | So now way to confirm whether they state that software will stop working |
| 16:05.55 | Samot | I posted it. |
| 16:05.56 | dan_j | Where does it say that EOL will stop working? |
| 16:06.09 | Samot | There are two things here. |
| 16:06.24 | Samot | One is the Terms of Use that states, they can stop services. |
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| 16:06.32 | Samot | The other is the EOL announcement. |
| 16:06.33 | dan_j | Services is not software |
| 16:06.46 | Samot | The software runs on their service platform. |
| 16:06.54 | Samot | They are shutting down that platform. |
| 16:07.44 | dan_j | No. The software might 'check in' to see if there are any updates available, but the lack of that service should not cause the software to fail. Imagine if Microsoft announced that all XP machines won't boot on May 2019? |
| 16:08.10 | Samot | Different platform structure. |
| 16:08.20 | Samot | Comparing apples to oranges. |
| 16:08.24 | Samot | https://go.counterpath.com/eyebeam-discontinued |
| 16:08.58 | dan_j | Bria 5 on their store pages says 'Perpetual License'. I assume that in 10 years, they'll turn off the 'service' for that software causing it to break. Hence, it's either not Perpetual or faulty. Pick one? |
| 16:09.51 | dan_j | eyeBeam was sold as Perpetual. It's a softphone. No 'service' required for it to function if you have a VoIP provider. |
| 16:12.21 | dan_j | So, maybe due to lack of foresight, they turn off their 'software update' service and it breaks all fully functional eyeBeam installations. All they needed to do was to include a small amount of code that says 'is the software update service available? no? ok, just continue as normal'. |
| 16:12.46 | dan_j | eyeBeam was never free. I would totally understand if they did it to a free product. |
| 16:14.29 | Samot | I think you are forgetting that there is a platform that supports certain features in eyebeam. |
| 16:14.35 | Samot | That platform is being shut down. |
| 16:15.22 | Samot | Do you have eyeBeam licences? |
| 16:15.45 | dan_j | i've used eyeBeam in the past. There are no features that use Counterpath's systems apart from 'auto-update'. |
| 16:16.02 | Samot | OK. |
| 16:16.07 | Samot | Since I use those, I know there are. |
| 16:16.19 | dan_j | I've had a couple of clients purchasing eyeBeam licenses but none at the moment. We use Bria Stretto for our softphone solution. |
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| 16:18.37 | drmessano | wow |
| 16:19.27 | Samot | Oh, drmessano. When did your corp move off eyeBeam? |
| 16:19.44 | drmessano | 5 years ago? |
| 16:19.53 | drmessano | How long has Bria been out? |
| 16:20.09 | Samot | About that... |
| 16:20.17 | Samot | Give/take. |
| 16:20.34 | drmessano | 6 years, actually |
| 16:20.59 | drmessano | Well, thats not entirely true.. we did it after Bria had been out for a little bit.. so closer to 5 |
| 16:21.08 | Samot | We did the same thing at the LEC I was at. Dumped eyeBeam and went to Bria. |
| 16:21.36 | drmessano | But there's no such thing a perpetual license |
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| 16:21.45 | dan_j | My point is, if someone purchases a perpetual license (from any company), barring the fact that the software is no longer updated to resolve security bugs, they should expect that software with a perpetual license should continue running on operating systems which it functioned on. |
| 16:21.53 | drmessano | Actually, those terms contradict |
| 16:22.02 | drmessano | You're LICENSING the USE of the software |
| 16:22.14 | drmessano | You don't OWN anything.. there is no tangible asset transfer |
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| 16:22.37 | dan_j | The buyer would own a PERPETUAL LICENSE |
| 16:22.55 | drmessano | they should expect that software with a perpetual license should continue running on operating systems which it functioned on. <-- nope |
| 16:23.21 | drmessano | Ask Adobe customers with 12 year old copies of Photoshop |
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| 16:24.21 | drmessano | So just for shits and grins |
| 16:24.32 | drmessano | How many licenses do you have for Eyebeam? |
| 16:24.41 | drmessano | How many copies are we talking about? |
| 16:24.56 | [TK]D-Fender | Do they offer any discounted upgrade path? |
| 16:26.06 | dan_j | None that I use. It's the principle I have an issue with. |
| 16:26.11 | drmessano | ROFL |
| 16:26.15 | drmessano | Ok, im done |
| 16:26.19 | dan_j | "Ask Adobe customers with 12 year old copies of Photoshop" - No one is asking for copies. |
| 16:26.36 | dan_j | But if it's already installed, photoshop will continue to function |
| 16:26.44 | drmessano | You can't reinstall it |
| 16:26.52 | dan_j | I dont have an issue with that |
| 16:26.59 | drmessano | JFC |
| 16:27.02 | Samot | Have you looked into what is actually going to stop working next year? |
| 16:27.02 | drmessano | Im really done now |
| 16:27.24 | dan_j | Yes. They've said that if you try to launch it, it will fail and crash |
| 16:27.41 | Samot | Because it checks in. |
| 16:27.49 | Samot | You should read their Terms of Use. |
| 16:27.55 | Samot | They have a right to end the license. |
| 16:27.57 | dan_j | It can't fail silently like Windows Updates do on XP? |
| 16:27.58 | Samot | It's their license. |
| 16:28.20 | drmessano | Imagine if Microsoft announced that all XP machines won't boot on May 2019? <-- COULD THEY, PLEASE |
| 16:28.21 | dan_j | right to end != perpetual |
| 16:28.55 | Samot | Well it states what in the license survives due to it being perptual. |
| 16:29.00 | Samot | Well it states what in the license survives due to it being perpetual. |
| 16:29.25 | drmessano | Licenses are perpetual |
| 16:29.29 | drmessano | the product is not |
| 16:30.25 | dan_j | The product is faulty if it cant survive without the 'check-in' service. Interestingly, I just tried to launch a Bria 3 client with the network disconnected and it opened fine. |
| 16:30.45 | dan_j | I wonder if I can locate any old eyeBeam licenses and see if they do the same. |
| 16:31.00 | drmessano | So email the CEO of Counterpath and tell him his 13 year old product is fault |
| 16:31.03 | drmessano | So email the CEO of Counterpath and tell him his 13 year old product is faulty |
| 16:31.09 | Samot | Well you probably need to wait until later in 2019 |
| 16:31.42 | dan_j | I would email the CEO of Counterpath and tell him that 13 year old product was built with the ability to disable it when they want people to upgrade. |
| 16:31.58 | drmessano | I bought Bria for IOS.. they EOL'ed the old product and went to a subscription model, $9.99 a year. Signed up for it the same day |
| 16:32.01 | drmessano | Boo hoo |
| 16:32.22 | drmessano | I only got 7 years out of my $24.99 worth of Bria + Addons |
| 16:32.41 | dan_j | If eyeBeam launches without a network connection, then most likely, it will only fail if they tell their servers (or replace a certificate) which eyeBeam then takes to mean 'do not open' |
| 16:32.59 | Samot | It's not happening today |
| 16:33.04 | Samot | It's happening next year. |
| 16:33.04 | dan_j | drmessano: you never expected to pay and use until you got bored of it? |
| 16:33.32 | dan_j | Samot: I realise that. but if it can launch without being able to access the network, then it should be able to launch if they turn their services off. |
| 16:34.25 | drmessano | dan_j: Nope.. It would have been "nice", but I actually find value in things I use. Also had another app that EOL'ed the old version and went to a $19.99 a year subscription model, or else the guy was going to have to stop developing and go work for someone. |
| 16:34.38 | drmessano | I gladly paid |
| 16:35.09 | drmessano | Bria is a fine product.. I gladly pay $9.99 a year to use it on all 3 of my iDevices |
| 16:35.12 | dan_j | I would probably too if there was a possibility that the developer would close. |
| 16:35.30 | Samot | So let me see if I understand this. |
| 16:35.46 | Samot | you're upset at Counterpath over this but you use the same platform I use for Bria services. |
| 16:36.00 | Samot | So you haven't sold eyeBeam to your users in a while. |
| 16:36.02 | drmessano | Considering that I got 7 years of updates for $24.99, Counterpath made ~$3.50 a year off of me |
| 16:36.07 | Samot | Because? You saw a better value in Bria? |
| 16:36.08 | drmessano | I got the good end of that deal |
| 16:36.16 | igcewieling | Really useful: "All Newark Staff will be at a meeting until 10 am today. Would you please have all calls go to the anserve service." but they never told us what phone number the "anserve" is. If customers drove their cars with as little attention as they do their phones, we'd all be dead of car wrecks. |
| 16:36.46 | drmessano | So I guess I should email them and tell them to get fucked for wanting more than $3.50 a year from me |
| 16:37.04 | drmessano | For pepetual updates |
| 16:37.07 | drmessano | For perpetual updates |
| 16:38.14 | dan_j | "you're upset at Counterpath over this but you use the same platform I use for Bria services" - Bria Stretto allows for remote configuration. If there was another/better softphone solution, I'd probably take it. Clients have purchases eyeBeam in the past. I dont know which still use it. I dont know if they'll all call in May 2019 saying they are having problems. |
| 16:38.25 | dan_j | purchased* |
| 16:38.31 | Samot | 12:25:04 PM <[TK]D-Fender> Do they offer any discounted upgrade path? <-- There is no upgrade path. eyeBeam and Bria are not the same product. |
| 16:38.55 | dan_j | Samot: they have offered an upgrade option |
| 16:39.10 | drmessano | lol |
| 16:39.23 | dan_j | "CounterPath encourages eyeBeam users to purchase Bria 5 which provides a superior softphone experience with consistent updates. You can still upgrade to Bria 5 for the discounted price of $34.99 " |
| 16:39.23 | Samot | What is the option? |
| 16:39.36 | drmessano | Damn |
| 16:39.45 | drmessano | So they even offer $35 a copy for upgrade |
| 16:39.58 | Samot | That's the Stretto platform. |
| 16:40.01 | dan_j | nope |
| 16:40.05 | Samot | OK. |
| 16:40.14 | Samot | Or the desktop version. |
| 16:40.18 | dan_j | "You can still upgrade to Bria 5 for the discounted price of $34.99 USD using the coupon code, eyeBeamEndofLife in our online store." |
| 16:40.24 | drmessano | Which is the same price they offer to Bria 3 and 4 customers |
| 16:40.40 | drmessano | So you've given me even less to care about here |
| 16:40.55 | drmessano | Because they're even offering a discount for a WHOLE NEW, SUPPORTED PRODUCT |
| 16:40.57 | drmessano | So, lol |
| 16:41.18 | dan_j | I just don't like the concept of a company thinking...."ok, we need some money. lets deactivate old copies of functional software" |
| 16:41.25 | drmessano | dan_j: Maybe your customers should pay with principle instead of money |
| 16:41.34 | drmessano | Because they WANT you to feel appreciated |
| 16:41.38 | drmessano | Forever, even |
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| 16:41.49 | drmessano | "we need some money" |
| 16:41.51 | dan_j | Make a decent product, people will upgrade and pay for ongoing updates. Don't force it. |
| 16:41.58 | drmessano | 13 years |
| 16:42.08 | Samot | For the last time. |
| 16:42.15 | Samot | eyeBeam and Bria ARE NOT the same product. |
| 16:42.19 | drmessano | Whats 50 / $13 |
| 16:42.19 | Samot | You are confusing this issue hard. |
| 16:42.27 | Samot | They are discontinuing A product. |
| 16:42.37 | Samot | They have another product, they will give you a discount on. |
| 16:42.43 | drmessano | So $4 a year for upgrades |
| 16:42.51 | dan_j | I've not said that I consider them the same product? |
| 16:43.05 | Samot | 12:41:59 PM <dan_j> Make a decent product, people will upgrade and pay for ongoing updates. Don't force it. |
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| 16:43.21 | Samot | They are dropping a product. |
| 16:43.22 | [TK]D-Fender | Samot, How different are they beyond the base soft-phone portion? Does that invalidate even the concept of a side-grade in your mind? In music softwareEZ Drummer & Superior Drummer are "different products" as well, but you can side-grade from lower to higher (at a different price that a straight upgrade of course, but a fair "loyalty" discount. |
| 16:43.22 | drmessano | If you bought it in 2005, you paid $4 a year to use it |
| 16:43.24 | Samot | Period. |
| 16:43.59 | dan_j | In general, make a decent product, people will pay for it, or pay for other products that do the same job better. Don't force it by pulling the plug on older functioning software. |
| 16:44.19 | Samot | It hasn't had an update in 3 years. |
| 16:44.26 | Samot | Security or otherwise. |
| 16:44.41 | drmessano | Assuming you weren't a dumbass and only paid for Eyebeam before Bria was released, you got a ride of at least 7 years in 2019. Less than $10 a year to use it |
| 16:44.51 | Samot | you're arguing it should just stick around for people who won't move to a new product? |
| 16:45.25 | igcewieling | "All softphones suck." |
| 16:46.14 | file | he's arguing that it should remain operational in its current form (even if in the future it may have problems with later OS updates), without support/updates, because he paid for a perpetual license for it |
| 16:46.53 | Samot | The platform that supports the ability for it to validate itself will be gone. |
| 16:47.15 | file | that's an implementation detail on the Counterpath side |
| 16:47.15 | Samot | Because again, CounterPath or the User have rights to end the license. |
| 16:47.29 | file | that doesn't make it right or user friendly |
| 16:47.29 | Samot | They haven't updated the software in 3 years. |
| 16:47.38 | Samot | So they are going to make an update now for this? |
| 16:47.41 | file | and yet people are still using it and happy |
| 16:47.53 | file | (dan_j is not alone in his feelings) |
| 16:47.58 | Samot | OK. |
| 16:48.55 | Samot | Since it's a year out I'm sure if there is enough people deciding to not upgrade and still use it they could change their mind. |
| 16:49.17 | file | a reasonable solution would have been for them to terminate any backend requirement for paid users, provide an explanation of how it will not be supported in any form, urge them to upgrade |
| 16:49.47 | Samot | They stopped selling earlier this year. |
| 16:49.55 | Samot | They've made announcements. |
| 16:49.59 | Samot | It's pretty detailed. |
| 16:50.14 | Samot | They are offering a discount on their new Bria 5 software. |
| 16:50.18 | Samot | There's a year to go |
| 16:50.22 | Samot | That's an urge. |
| 16:50.32 | Samot | Just like MS giving free updates from 7 and 8 to 10 |
| 16:50.38 | Samot | For one year. |
| 16:50.40 | file | 7 and 8 still work. |
| 16:50.45 | file | and will continue to work. |
| 16:50.48 | drmessano | Actually, he didn't pay for it.. He seems to have a copy of Bria that he stated he opened earlier |
| 16:50.54 | drmessano | So this is all just academic |
| 16:51.28 | *** join/#asterisk kunwon1 (~kunwon1@unaffiliated/kunwon1) |
| 16:51.34 | Samot | How much was eyeBeam? |
| 16:52.34 | file | I don't even care about how much it cost or any of that, there's just a better way they could have done it and had better good will with users |
| 16:53.18 | drmessano | $35 upgrade path to the $50 current option seems pretty decent to me |
| 16:53.34 | drmessano | Thats not even an upgrade, excuse me |
| 16:53.48 | drmessano | Different product, they never actually paid for in the first place. |
| 16:53.59 | drmessano | $35 special price |
| 16:54.00 | dan_j | file: has understood my issue exactly. |
| 16:54.11 | drmessano | I understand your issue just fine |
| 16:54.15 | drmessano | I don't agree |
| 16:54.18 | file | yes, that is a nice gesture from them, but completely terminating a piece of software to FORCE it |
| 16:54.20 | file | is rude and unkind |
| 16:54.33 | dan_j | Since they sold it last year, some people who paid last year will be very annoyed. |
| 16:55.09 | file | investing a little bit of time to remove whatever requirement there is to talk back shows, as a company, that you still care about that user base and understand some may want to continue to use it |
| 16:55.30 | file | it becomes a choice and then the users see that the company does care, and are more inclined to consider upgrading |
| 16:55.44 | file | as it is the others who have mentioned it to me are actively looking to see if there are other companies |
| 16:55.55 | Samot | Well... |
| 16:55.58 | dan_j | Perfectly worded. |
| 16:56.08 | Samot | I guess it would also depend on that market share. |
| 16:56.30 | Samot | If 5% of their market is active eyeBeam licenses what is the cost of that goodwill? |
| 16:57.01 | file | word can spread |
| 16:57.26 | Samot | Is that goodwill worth that 5%? |
| 16:57.28 | file | so like I said, just because they can doesn't make it right |
| 16:57.44 | Samot | This is like Digium spending resources and time on digging up 1.8 and fixing something for 5% of the users. |
| 16:57.46 | file | that's up to them, they may have certainly weighed the numbers |
| 16:57.51 | file | no |
| 16:57.53 | file | no it is absolutely not |
| 16:58.09 | file | this is like Digium erasing every trace of 1.8 and removing it from every install when it is no longer supported |
| 16:58.20 | file | want to continue to use Asterisk? too bad, 13 |
| 16:58.28 | file | that phone system that was working? too bad |
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| 16:59.10 | file | a harsh comparison mind you, but that is what it is for these people like dan_j |
| 16:59.23 | dan_j | Samot: youre talking about providing fixes for bugs. I am not suggesting nor expecting that. |
| 16:59.32 | Samot | No.. |
| 16:59.46 | dan_j | You just said 'fixing' |
| 16:59.48 | Samot | But in order to make eyeBeam not check in or care about the backend being up |
| 17:00.11 | Samot | Counterpath now has to dedicate devs and engineers to a piece of software that's been shelved for 3 years or so. |
| 17:00.28 | Samot | To make updates to stop this from happening, or what you described will happen. |
| 17:00.43 | dan_j | Question, did any of the installations function on private networks with no internet access? |
| 17:01.29 | dan_j | As a programmer, adding a Try Catch around that could would not take more than a day or two? |
| 17:01.47 | dan_j | Not difficult for a large company to do? |
| 17:02.22 | dan_j | Ive used other software where the company did exactly that. And they have a much higher level of respect from their end users. |
| 17:02.25 | file | it's not, their devs are pretty decent |
| 17:02.36 | file | has met a few |
| 17:03.05 | Samot | If you feel so disrespected are you going to end your Stretto platform relationship with them? |
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| 17:12.22 | drmessano | seems like the service has been provided |
| 17:12.37 | drmessano | They EOL'ed it in 2015 |
| 17:12.48 | drmessano | Gave customers 4 years to migrate |
| 17:13.00 | drmessano | Offered them a discount on the new product |
| 17:13.37 | drmessano | Now they're just refusing to open a time capsule and release a final update to Eyebeam to keep it functioning past 4 years beyond EOL |
| 17:13.59 | drmessano | BTW, I was incorrect.. Eyebeam released in 2004.. so 15 years |
| 17:16.18 | drmessano | So the Asterisk 1.8 analogy is actually incorrect.. this would be prior to 1.2 |
| 17:17.34 | Samot | It stopped receiving updates in 2015 but was still available for purchase until March this year. |
| 17:18.32 | drmessano | Anyone that purchased eyebeam instead of Bria, other than to add a copy or two to an existing install, should have been shot or redirected |
| 17:19.21 | drmessano | But since we are being hippy dippy about it |
| 17:19.40 | drmessano | Asterisk 1.0.7 is still available for download and to install on a new system |
| 17:19.58 | drmessano | I find that criminally negligent in the highest sense of the law |
| 17:20.04 | [TK]D-Fender | I remember 1.0.7 well.... |
| 17:20.19 | drmessano | Asterisk 1.0.7 should be pulled from all repos without haste |
| 17:20.23 | [TK]D-Fender | that and 1.0.9 was was one of the longest running * versions included with A@H |
| 17:21.18 | drmessano | Everyone at Digium should be PERSONALLY held responsible for 1.0.7's continued availability |
| 17:21.25 | drmessano | Even the receptionist |
| 17:21.43 | igcewieling | no, just Asterisk 11 8-| |
| 17:22.06 | drmessano | What if I install it on a new system for a nursing home and someone DIES |
| 17:22.19 | [TK]D-Fender | I know a few regulars still on 1.6 & 1.8.... |
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| 17:22.25 | drmessano | $$$$$$ Better call Dewey, Cheatham, Howe and hope they have a plan |
| 17:22.45 | drmessano | oops |
| 17:22.51 | drmessano | $$$$$$ Better call Dewey, Cheatham & Howe and hope they have a plan |
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| 17:23.35 | Samot | I don't fault Mikrotik for making older version unavailable for download. |
| 17:24.15 | Samot | If whatever system you had running that old of software died, put it on new software. If you're trying to install it new, that's even worse. |
| 17:25.26 | Samot | The only thing I fault CounterPath with in all this is leaving eyeBeam licenses available for purchase for this long. |
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