IRC log for #asterisk on 20170114

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02:00.24qloogkm[m]to turn on video mid-call, does that require a sip reinvite?
02:10.08[TK]D-FenderOf course
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02:38.41SamotAnything that deals with the media requires a Re-INVITE to update the SDP.
02:38.46SamotEvent hold.
02:38.51SamotEven hold.
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04:41.56scriptinghelphi i have setup a queue and it works properly, only that when a member hangs up a call from the queue, CDR's "userfield" is not populated in the cdr
04:42.13scriptinghelpthere are 2 entries, 1 for the IVR/moh , "userfield" IS populated
04:42.24scriptinghelpfor the users billsec it is not populated
04:42.28scriptinghelp(userfield)
04:42.41scriptinghelpcan someone please advise me on how to populate the userfield in both?
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05:16.31Samotuserfield is for DTMF digits that are entered by the user..
05:16.41SamotGenerally..
05:17.07SamotNot all fields are populated in a CDR entry depending on what the entry is for.
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07:10.24igcewieling1userfield is a custom field used before _adaptive existed
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16:05.46tompawIn debug log, what does the number after ; mean? For instance: Local/blablabla@context-00000066;1
16:08.04SamotThis "00000066"?
16:08.14tompawno, the ";1"
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16:22.52zacky83Hi everybody , is it possible in asterisk to configure dynamically thousands of sip accounts ?
16:27.02Samottompaw: That's only for Local channels I believe. It has two "legs".
16:27.20SamotSo same channel ID but ;1 is leg "1"
16:30.50tompawthanks I thought so
16:31.09tompawhow is it possible that one leg hangs up, while the other does not?
16:31.58SamotWell local channels have an outbound and an inbound leg.
16:32.53Samot[2016-12-17 17:42:50] VERBOSE[6253] dial.c: Local/1NXXNXXXXXX@outbound-001860d7;1 is making progress
16:32.53Samot[2016-12-17 17:43:07] VERBOSE[6254][C-002fe458] app_dial.c: SIP/flowroute-0018fbf1 answered Local/1NXXNXXXXXX@outbound-001860d7;2
16:33.01*** join/#asterisk ConSi (consi@jest.pro)
16:33.25SamotOnce it's answered, leg 1 is gone. The channel is inbound only now on leg 2
16:34.22tompawOK, so now when I hang up this channel using ARI, only leg 1 in terminated
16:34.34Samotzacky83: What do you mean "configure dynamically"?
16:34.48tompawleg 2 remains alive, but only if I used a pre-dial handler on it. even if it's trivial, like NoOp + Return
16:35.02tompawwhat could be causing this behavior?
16:35.58Samottompaw: Show a debug of this.
16:36.11tompawok, one sec
16:38.06Samotzacky83: Asterisk can handle thousands of SIP accounts. How you set them up is up to you.
16:38.26zacky83Samot: I mean being able to add on the fly multiple accounts for asterisk from command line or from java for example
16:38.44Samotzacky83: That's up to you.
16:39.00tompawSamot: https://hastebin.com/hajoqidozu.swift
16:39.10SamotPeople have deployed different methods for automatic setups in Asterisk.
16:39.59tompawSamot: long story short, my .hangup() only seems to affect ;1 and ;2 turns into a zombie
16:40.20tompawBut only if there is a Dial(,,b( )) inside the Local dialplan. If I don't use b( ), it works perfectly fine.
16:40.51tompawSamot: should I try using /n with my Local channel?
16:41.05SamotThat's generally recommended.
16:41.40zacky83Samot : but how can I set them from a program and not by hand?
16:42.03tompawSamot: can /n affect hanging up tho? I thought it was only for transfers.
16:42.06Samotzacky83: That is up to you. People use PHP, Python, etc..
16:42.31tompawzacky83: use a realtime configuration and read your sip accounts from an sql database
16:42.34zacky83Samot: how to do it in PHP for example ?
16:43.13tompawSamot: did you have a chance to look at the pastebin?
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16:44.17zacky83tompaw: how to use a realtime configuration ? can I do it without a sql database ?
16:44.24Samotzacky83: There are different methods, it's going to be dependant on how _you_ want to do it and how it meets _your_ needs and requirements.
16:44.55tompawzacky83: this means your sip configuration (including endpoints / accounts) will be dynamically stored in a database rather than a file
16:44.59zacky83Samot: do you know where I can find information to do it in PHP ?
16:45.07SamotGoogle.
16:45.19tompawyou can then add/remove accounts by simply adding/removing rows from appropriate tables
16:46.09Samotzacky83: At the end of the day, you need to know what you want to do and how to take what you find on Google and make it fit what you need.
16:46.21SamotSo Step 1: Have a plan.
16:46.29zacky83samot I already searched for it
16:46.32SamotWell Step 1: Have the idea.
16:46.35SamotStep 2: Make a plan.
16:47.57Samotzacky83: I have a method in which I do this but I doubt it will fit anything *you* need. It's design specifically for my overall requirements and needs.
16:48.14zacky83samot tell me more aboput it
16:48.23tompawPLAN: 1. Hang up leg ;2 of Local channels w/b( ) handlers using ARI
16:48.26tompawWho likes my plan?
16:48.43Samottompaw: I haven't mess with ARI at all, so...sounds good?
16:50.28Samotzacky83: It uses my client backend system to provision and store the needed/wanted information in the various places they need to be. It uses API calls to send that information to the proper systems that run custom scripts to insert the information and update the need .confs or database tables..
16:53.18Samotzacky83: Again, my way is designed for my business and tech needs/requirements and does a whole lot of things that wouldn't apply to you.
16:53.44zacky83samot , can I add and remove sip accounts from java ?
16:53.51SamotSure.
16:54.11SamotI don't use JAVA but I'm sure there are methods from those that have/do.
16:55.03SamotI bet someone has even done it in LUA.
16:55.13tompawdid it in lua @ freeswitch
16:55.19SamotSee.
16:55.32ConSizacky83: you can add entries to sql database from java application :>
16:55.36SamotWell that's FreeSwitch, things are done a little differently.
16:56.02zacky83Consi, I don't want to work with sql database . can I add sip account from CLI command line ?
16:56.17SamotConSi: We can offer things until the cows come home. He's grabbing at straws right now. He needs a plan.
16:56.37Samotzacky83: You either use RealTime or the .conf giles.
16:56.41Samotzacky83: You either use RealTime or the .conf files
16:57.06SamotSo you would have to edit sip.conf (or pjsip confs) each time you update/add/remove a user/device.
16:57.12zacky83samot , is there a way to use realtime without SQL database?
16:57.17SamotNo.
16:57.46SamotWell, I think you can use other DBs.
16:57.55tompawWhy don't you ASM your CPU registers to add the account there?
16:57.55zacky83ok thank you  I think I will make a huge sip.conf file with 10 000 accounts
16:57.59SamotSince RealTime uses ODBC.
16:58.13Samotzacky83: Don't be snarky.
16:58.28SamotThere are two ways you can do it.
16:58.41SamotYou don't want to use a SQL DB, then you use .confs.
16:58.55SamotYou don't want a .conf with 10,000 accounts, use RealTime.
16:59.15zacky83samot I am afraid that with 10 000 accounts in a sip.conf file , asterisk will be very slow
16:59.21SamotAgain, until you have an actual plan...this is pointless.
16:59.37SamotWhy would you host 10K on one box?
17:00.13zacky83samot , because I am being creating an application for mobile for people to get an extra number
17:00.27SamotThat's not a valid reason.
17:01.04zacky83all people downloading my app will need a different accounts
17:01.09SamotSo?
17:01.13zacky831 per person
17:01.17SamotPeople using my service need different accounts.
17:01.30zacky83I bet I will have over 100 000 downloads
17:01.38SamotThat has nothing to do with it.
17:01.50zacky83so in sip password for everybody
17:02.00zacky83one SIP password*
17:02.08SamotRunning a VoIP service on one Asterisk box is just wrong.
17:02.16zacky83samot why ?
17:02.37SamotBecause there's more to providing a service than just having an Asterisk box.
17:03.04zacky83I just offer them telephone call feature
17:03.19SamotThat is "providing a service"
17:03.39SamotThey expect to be able to make and receive calls...
17:03.42SamotAnd shit to work.
17:03.52SamotJust have an Asterisk box does not cover it.
17:03.56zacky83what is the problem with asterisk then ?
17:04.01SamotNothing.
17:04.07SamotMy entire voice network runs on Asterisk.
17:04.08zacky83I already can do that with asterisk
17:04.33SamotBut not Asterisk alone.
17:05.19zacky83I manage all from java
17:05.37*** join/#asterisk davlefou (~davlefou@unaffiliated/davlefou)
17:06.04Samothttp://i.imgur.com/uMeSccM.gif
17:07.15zacky83Samot , can asterisk handle let s say 100 000 accounts and 1000 simultaenous call on a powerful server ?
17:07.30SamotI would say "maybe"
17:07.42SamotI would never do that.
17:07.49tompawWell, /n doesn't help
17:07.53SamotNor would any sane Telecom person.
17:08.00zacky83Samot why ?
17:08.31SamotBecause that just would be a poor way of doing it.
17:08.43zacky83what would be a smarter way ?
17:09.02SamotI would have that spread over multiple servers...
17:09.12SamotI would have something like Kamailio involved..
17:09.33SamotAnd depending on their actual service, might not even have them registering to Asterisk at all.
17:09.44*** join/#asterisk DanQuinney (sid18169@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jxmhqrilabifdqri)
17:10.08SamotActually, how I do it now.
17:10.41SamotUnless they are using actual PBX features, Asterisk is just a media server for them.
17:11.50zacky83for me asterisk is the software to have to be able to deal with SIP and calls , Kamailio is far better for you ?
17:12.19SamotKamailio is a SIP Registrar/Router.
17:13.05SamotAsterisk is a Telephony Engine that has PBX functionality.
17:13.50SamotKamailio doesn't do media, Asterisk does. Together they are very powerful.
17:13.56zacky83so to place call and receive calls I need asterisk and not Kamailio ?
17:14.21SamotIt all depends on what you are doing.
17:14.27SamotYou could use Kamailio..
17:14.49SamotAnd let the media be handled by the provider and the end user's device.
17:15.01SamotBut you wouldn't haven't PBX features..
17:15.18SamotOr a Voicemail system
17:15.23zacky83what do you call the media  ? I only deal with telephony
17:15.39SamotMedia as in audio
17:15.48SamotOr video, since this is SIP.
17:17.26zacky83I intend to become a telecom operator to be able to get 10 000 numbers by block for mobile . I also intend to host the asterisk server with ISDN PCI cards inside a datacenter
17:17.50SamotISDN?
17:18.00zacky83digital PCI cards
17:18.00SamotYou're going to provide SIP service over ISDN?
17:18.13zacky83samot , yes why not ?
17:18.22SamotWhat speed are you getting with it?
17:18.40zacky83what speed ? of what ?
17:18.42WIMPysip *over* isdn?
17:19.00SamotOf the ISDN connections?
17:19.19SamotAre you talking about actual 64Kbps ISDN channels?!
17:19.20drmessanoOk I have a couple questions
17:19.26zacky83I will host the server with 1 Gbit bandwidth link
17:19.28SamotI knew you would.
17:19.39SamotHow are you getting calls to the PSTN?
17:19.43drmessanoYou're going to get ISDN PRIs ?
17:19.47Samotor getting them?
17:19.56drmessanoand offer SIP services?
17:20.06drmessanoCalls come in over ISDN?
17:20.15WIMPysees questions with rather obvious answers.
17:20.15zacky83I will get 10 000 mobile phone numbers in becoming a telecom operator
17:20.24drmessanohang on
17:20.36drmessanoI get the landline part
17:20.45drmessanoHow are you going to become a mobile operator
17:20.50SamotYour stock of DIDs is irrelevant.
17:20.52zacky83I guess all those numbers will be rooted to my asterisk server
17:20.55drmessanoWhere does the mobile part come in?
17:21.17SamotI guess when you call "the media".
17:22.04zacky83so anyone calling those number from a landline telephone will be routed to my asterisk server , and the user of my app will then be contacted
17:22.06drmessanoPSTN <---ISDN--> Asterisk <--SIP-->  ??????  <--mobile-->
17:22.13drmessanoOh
17:22.22zacky83is there anything wrong with that ?
17:22.25drmessanoYoure going to offer a SIP app for the phone
17:22.50zacky83drmessano , better than a sip app , a whatsapp like app
17:23.04drmessanoOkay, so the users will still need data service from a telco
17:23.09drmessanoStill be paying for it
17:23.18drmessanoand then paying you for another number?
17:24.02zacky83in fact users depending on their status will get free number to be called , and will buy credits for outgoing calls
17:24.13drmessanoRight
17:24.19drmessanoOkay, so the users will still need data service from a telco
17:24.27drmessanoSo whats the incentive ?
17:24.40zacky83drmessano what do you mean ?
17:24.48drmessanoThey're paying for a phone
17:24.49zacky83incentinve ?
17:24.57drmessanoThey have a number.. and a data plan..
17:25.08drmessanoBecause they need network access
17:25.16zacky83yes
17:25.18drmessanoSo they then also pay more to have your service
17:25.28drmessanoWhy would they want to do that?
17:25.40WIMPyI think the question is why someone might want to use your service.
17:25.47drmessano^
17:25.58SamotTotally.
17:26.00drmessanoI have a number for calls
17:26.02drmessanoI have data
17:26.06drmessanoWhy do I need you
17:26.32WIMPyMaking calls more expensive doesn't sound lie a good argument.
17:26.47drmessanoIt aint not sure doesn't
17:26.58zacky83let me explain
17:27.02drmessanoPlease
17:27.14zacky83what are your nationalities
17:27.20drmessanoWhy?
17:27.31drmessanoI'm french
17:27.49WIMPy:-)
17:27.53drmessanopoints to his outrageous accent
17:28.17drmessanoSamot is a silly english type
17:29.16SamotKinda.
17:29.21SamotI'm Irish too.
17:29.24SamotSo I hate myself.
17:30.52drmessanoAre we waiting for something?
17:30.55zacky83me
17:31.02zacky83wait 2 minutes
17:32.09drmessanotf
17:32.52drmessanocan pretty much imagine "wait 2 minutes" is how the calling on this service is going to work
17:33.05drmessanoor "try again later"
17:33.21zacky83I recieved a phone call
17:33.27drmessanoOn top of "What exactly am I paying for?"
17:34.09zacky83I m back sorry
17:34.13zacky83so the app :
17:34.19zacky83instant messaging
17:34.25zacky83instant live video
17:34.44zacky83able to see everything in a browser desktop
17:34.48drmessano....
17:34.59zacky83for best users : a free extra number
17:35.07zacky83free to receive calls
17:35.23zacky83very nice look and design
17:35.25drmessanoOk, so its a Skype clone.. We get it
17:35.40WIMPyAnd what do you relay to the PSTN?
17:35.50drmessanoWhy would I want to pay for outbound calls?
17:35.57drmessanoWhy do I need your free incoming calls?
17:36.05drmessanoBut most importantly
17:36.10drmessano*Why would I want to pay for outbound calls?*
17:36.25zacky83you will pay zero to get an extra number to sell things on "leboncoin"
17:36.25*** join/#asterisk [TK]D-Fender (~joe@64.235.216.2)
17:36.27drmessanoI am required to have a phone
17:36.40drmessanoI am paying to have voice
17:36.43drmessanoI am paying to have data
17:36.56drmessanoI am going to use my precious data for these IP calls
17:37.01drmessanoWhich I also have to pay for
17:37.11zacky83drmessano every users use their phone in wifi
17:37.12drmessanoSo why do I want to do this?
17:37.25drmessanoOh, so I have to be chained to Wifi
17:37.30drmessanoThats even worse.. ok
17:37.35zacky83and in France you have GB for few euros
17:37.55zacky83it works either in wifi , or in Data
17:38.06drmessanoOk
17:38.12drmessanoNow it works on both
17:38.19drmessanoYou said every user will be using this Wifi
17:38.27drmessanoOk, whatever... then going back
17:38.31drmessanoI am going to use my precious data for these IP calls
17:38.35drmessanoWhich I also have to pay for
17:38.39zacky83no I meant most of the time your phone is ins wifi mode
17:38.41drmessano*Why would I want to pay for outbound calls?*
17:39.05drmessanoYoure still not answering me
17:39.26zacky83drmessano the app is not for outbound calls . it is just an option , the app is to share images and messages with your friends
17:39.50drmessanoI have a phone.. I already pay to make calls.  I pay for data.   You want me to use my data AND pay for outbound calls.  Why do I want to do that?
17:40.01drmessanoDude
17:40.16SamotThere's no plan.
17:40.19zacky83because it is a social network like whatsapp
17:40.20drmessanoHow are you going to pay for tens of thousands of DID's and calls
17:40.26SamotHe's just grasping at cash straws.
17:41.04WIMPyJust because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean people aren't going to pay for it.
17:41.11zacky83I can pay for infrastructure to handle all the calls
17:41.13drmessanoYoure going to build this telephony infrastructure.. All these Asterisk boxes, ISDN lines, DIDs... and pay for them..
17:41.26drmessanoand users MAY or MAY NOT pay for outbound calls
17:41.30drmessanoSo why have it at all?
17:42.07zacky83because the key feature is that users will be able to call them outbound  for free within the network
17:42.19drmessano....
17:42.27drmessanoWhich doesnt require ISDN lines
17:42.31zacky83drmessano , you ll download my app and you ll love it
17:42.31drmessanoor Asterisk
17:42.43SamotI'm sure I won't.
17:42.44drmessanoYou still havent told me WHY
17:42.51drmessanoor answered ANYTHING I asked
17:42.51SamotI have no reason to use it now.
17:42.58zacky83ok let s take an example
17:43.00SamotBecause he doesn't have them.
17:43.06drmessanoJesus christ
17:43.31Samot12:15:29 PM <zacky83> what do you call the media  ? I only deal with telephony
17:43.39zacky83you  re outside  . a friend in the app texts you he needs to talk to you
17:43.44SamotI submit Exhibit A.
17:43.59SamotDude, there are LEADERS of this market.
17:44.00drmessanoOMG is he really explaining how a texting/calling app works
17:44.03drmessanoand use cases
17:44.05zacky83he s in wifi and you re outside with a 2G connection
17:44.07SamotWhy would I just Joe's App Shack over them?
17:44.11drmessanoZOMG
17:44.14drmessanoDude
17:44.14zacky83he s calling you
17:44.15drmessanoSTOP
17:44.16drmessanoI have Skype and WhatsApp and Facebook Messenger.
17:44.23Samot^ That
17:44.26drmessanoI know how apps work
17:44.28SamotHow will you compete?
17:44.30zacky83whatsapp doesn t allow you that
17:44.31drmessanoStop explaining it
17:44.39SamotHow will you get 100K downloads?
17:44.54drmessanoSo basically
17:45.01zacky83samot I have a 3M unique visitor website
17:45.14drmessanoIf my buddy only has 2G
17:45.27SamotI don't care.
17:45.33drmessanohe can pay for a PSTN call to me, which goes to the app
17:45.51drmessanoInstead of just calling me
17:46.00drmessanoBecause we both are REQUIRED to have PSTN anyway
17:46.20drmessanoExcept now I am using and abusing his data
17:46.29drmessanoPrecious metered data
17:46.36drmessanoInstead of just.. calling him
17:46.38zacky83drmessano this is not the case I talked about
17:47.09zacky83you can reach people that are in 2G with your wifi , with the best quality sound
17:47.26drmessanoLOL
17:47.26SamotHow will you receive/send calls to the PSTN?
17:47.32drmessanoHave you ever made a SIP call over 2G?
17:47.33SamotYou still haven't answered that.
17:47.36drmessanoHave you ever made a SIP call over 2G?
17:47.44SamotAnd if the answer is ISDN, then it's wrong.
17:48.00drmessanoIm sure he's referring to PRI
17:48.06drmessanoThats a red herring
17:48.07zacky83drmessano , a user of the app receiving a call in 2G , will not use data ! he will use voice
17:48.09SamotStill.
17:48.15drmessanoGOD DAMNIT
17:48.19SamotWhat?
17:48.24drmessanozacky83: Thats EXACTLY as I detailed above
17:48.26drmessanoEXACTLY
17:48.30drmessanoand you told me that WASNT
17:48.47drmessanoSo my buddy gets to use HIS DATA to make a PSTN CALL to ME
17:48.58drmessanoWhen we could have just.. made a PSTN CALL
17:49.03drmessanoand NO DATA being used
17:49.12drmessanoYou have yet to tell me WHY
17:49.18zacky83ok
17:49.25zacky83I will tell you why
17:49.31drmessanoPLEASE do
17:49.53zacky83my friend is in 2G , he uses voice , no choice about it
17:49.58drmessanoGot it
17:50.33drmessanoand?
17:50.37zacky83me , I am located in a small town with bad reception. my call is using my wifi so my friend will hear me very good
17:51.07zacky83now we can talk flawlessly
17:51.08drmessano....
17:51.24zacky83if I call him on his mobile phone quality will be bad
17:51.25drmessanoI can already do that with a modern phone
17:51.28drmessanoIts called Wifi calling
17:52.48zacky83to sum up things , doing something better than whatsapp for audio qulity
17:53.15drmessanoWhy do you think SIP will be better?  You're bound to the same codecs
17:53.16zacky83drmessano are you using whatsapp ?
17:53.28drmessanoI use them all
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17:54.11zacky83so if one of the 2 callers can use wifi instead 2G or 2.5G quality will be better
17:54.22SamotS basically, you're going to provide better IP based calling than Whatsapp with an Asterisk server and some PRIs?
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17:54.29drmessanoHave you ever heard of Wifi calling, zacky83 ?
17:54.36zacky83yes
17:55.03drmessanozacky83: Are you sure?  Lets be sure we're talking about the same thing
17:55.07zacky83wifi calling is better than GSM
17:55.37drmessanoIts connecting to your carrier over Wifi when you don't have 4G/LTE or the signal is poor
17:55.43drmessanoand its seamless
17:56.06drmessanoand iPhones have had it for a couple years, some Android devices even longer
17:56.31zacky83that s why you ll install my app , to get real quality audio in worst scenarios
17:56.34drmessanoHow are you going to compete ?
17:56.44drmessanozacky83: I dont need it.. I have Wifi calling
17:56.59drmessanozacky83: and why waste my data, that I pay for
17:57.20drmessanoor make some call that has to go through a proxy to get to the PSTN
17:57.36drmessanoSome unknown proxy that I have to pay to use
17:57.52drmessanoBecause you said I have to buy outbound minutes
17:57.59zacky83drmessano , in your car , when you re in 2G when you receive a call with whatsapp , the call is missed !
17:58.05zacky83with my app you get it !
17:58.22drmessanoPeople dont call me using WhatsApp
17:58.29drmessanoI have a PHONE NUMBER
17:58.54zacky83what are you using whatsapp for ?
17:58.56drmessanoand your scenario where I am at home in my village with poor LTE service
17:59.06SamotThe only people that call me via an app are those from other countries.
17:59.08drmessanoI can use WIFI CALLING
17:59.37drmessanoI clearly do not think you understand what Wifi calling is, in the wireless telecom sense
17:59.56Samotzacky83: Remember my Step 2? "Make a plan"?
18:00.12SamotThat includes how to understand the market you think you're going to crush.
18:00.20SamotBecause you're not.
18:00.20zacky83with an iphone 7 , in 2G , my phone use 2G and not wifi
18:00.29zacky83so this is bad
18:00.33SamotYou're going to bleed money and it's going to die.
18:00.48drmessanozacky83: with an iPhone 7, at home, with poor signal, my phone uses WIFI CALLING to my carrier
18:00.50zacky83samot are you using whatsapp and if yes , why ?
18:00.54drmessanozacky83: So people just CALL ME
18:01.00drmessanozacky83: and I just CALL THEM
18:01.06drmessanoBecause *I* have Wifi calling
18:01.09SamotI use WhatsApp rarely and for those that are generally in a different country.
18:01.17SamotWhere the PSTN call costs more than data.
18:01.20zacky83drmessano , I have an iphone 7 and it does not use wifi
18:01.30drmessanozacky83: You need to enable it
18:01.54drmessanoMost carriers support it, and the rest will soon
18:02.14zacky83nobody knows this trick
18:02.20SamotWhat?
18:02.24drmessanoWHAT?
18:02.31drmessanozacky83: Thats completely false
18:02.33zacky83to place call in wifi with your phone
18:02.39SamotTotally false.
18:02.57zacky83where can I activate that in iphone ?
18:02.58drmessanohttps://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203032
18:03.09SamotIn fact Onvoy/Vitelity has Samsung phones that do that with their service.
18:03.19drmessanoAndroid has it too.. on MANY handsets
18:03.20SamotOver Sprinit.
18:03.23SamotOver Sprint.
18:03.38drmessanoand guess what
18:03.46drmessanoI dont need to PAY to use it
18:03.48drmessanoAND
18:04.03Samotzacky83: You need to do some research. You're going to find that you'll have a lot of work to do to get where you think you're going to be.
18:04.05drmessanoIt works WELL over a 500k connection
18:04.39zacky83drmessano you did not tell me why you were using whatsapp
18:04.42drmessanoBecause I have a site that has ZERO network access.. Like not even EDGE.. But i have Wifi coupled to a 500k backhaul... and I made calls there ALL the time
18:04.52drmessanozacky83: Why does it matter?
18:05.14zacky83because my app is not only for telephony , it is for messaging
18:05.23SamotThis was amusing but now it's just got pointless.
18:05.27drmessanoYou and hundreds of others
18:05.38drmessanoLike Skype, Facebook Messenger, WhatsAPP,
18:05.51SamotSomeone thinks they have the next best answer with no real knowledge of the basic concepts.
18:06.08drmessanoBest part of Wifi calling.. People just CALL ME
18:06.11drmessanoNo APP needed
18:06.17zacky83you re right , other do similar things , but does this mean a new app can not work ?
18:06.30drmessanoThe calling premise is flawed
18:06.34SamotApp is an App.
18:06.38drmessanoExtremely
18:06.46SamotIt's the idea of the voice network that supports it.
18:06.51drmessanoNobody will use your app for calls
18:06.55SamotWhich is awful.
18:08.05zacky83so an app that is adding more things than other known apps is not worth it for you
18:08.18drmessanoAny market you think you have for <Degraded user in bad area with 2G <----> Wifi User> via your Asterisk proxy is COMPLETELY negated by Wifi calling with the carrier
18:08.27SamotIf the new features are viable.
18:08.45SamotBut throwing shit into an app to say "it does more" it pointless.
18:08.51drmessanoLike I said
18:08.54Samot"It's also a compass"
18:09.22zacky83I hope you 'll enjoy the design
18:09.33drmessanoI got to site X.. and I have NO SERVICE from my carrier.. I get on WIFI and I can make calls.  I can call my buddy Steve who has a flip phone with no Data.
18:09.45drmessanoWe dont need any App to complete the call you used as your example
18:10.14drmessanoThat ship sailed like 2-3 years ago
18:11.08zacky83if I listen to you , snapchat which does only messaging has no chance to succeed
18:11.12zacky83but it did
18:11.20drmessanoROFL
18:11.48drmessanoSnapchat succeeded because it does instant, automagically deleting picture messaging
18:11.55drmessanoSo people could sext
18:12.05zacky83my app will have an option for deleting pictures
18:12.15drmessanoSo youre gonna copy everyone else
18:12.22drmessanoLike everyone else
18:12.35drmessanoFacebook Messenger just added that
18:12.36zacky83take the best from both worlds with a nice interface
18:12.50drmessanoNobody cares about UIs
18:12.57Samot12:07:21 PM <zacky83> Samot , can asterisk handle let s say 100 000 accounts and 1000 simultaenous call on a powerful server ?
18:13.05drmessanoSnapchat has a fucking awful UI and people love it
18:13.09Samot^ You have completely disqualified that statement
18:13.29Samot1,000 sim calls on how you explained your "app" will be impossible.
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18:13.41zacky83samot , why ?
18:13.59zacky83drmessano I find snapchat ui very very bad
18:14.06drmessanoI said it is
18:14.12drmessanoSnapchat has a fucking awful UI and people love it
18:14.13SamotBecause that would require an ASR of 80% and on average 5 min. call you would need 4-5 calls PER SECOND to be made.
18:14.33SamotAnd if you're in a shitty area of the world..
18:14.38drmessanoPeople dont want the same shit in the new wrapper
18:14.41SamotYour ASR will be worse..
18:14.53drmessanoand the calling part is useless
18:14.55SamotWhich means you would need up to 10 calls PER SECOND to be made.
18:15.25zacky83samot , I will only restrict the call to one country at start
18:15.32drmessanoPlus 1000 calls is like 35 E1s
18:15.37SamotAnswer Seizure Rate
18:15.44SamotWhich is how many calls connect.
18:15.47SamotAnswered.
18:15.48drmessanoThats a lot of PRIs
18:16.02SamotI'm saying that 80% of your calls have to be answered at 4-5 calls PER SECOND
18:16.24SamotThat means 4-5 people would have to be receiving or making at call at the same time.
18:16.40SamotThat's how you figure out your sim calls.
18:16.52Samotif you're saying you're going to have 1,000 sim calls..
18:16.57drmessano^ You need to listen to Samot
18:17.02zacky83I don't see the blocking part with 1000 sim calls
18:17.07SamotYou'll have 5 calls setup/tearing down at any given second.
18:17.15Samot12:07:21 PM <zacky83> Samot , can asterisk handle let s say 100 000 accounts and 1000 simultaenous call on a powerful server ?
18:17.21Samot^ YOUR QUOTE
18:17.23zacky83yes
18:17.29zacky83this is what I want
18:17.37zacky831000 sim calls
18:17.48zacky83with 35 E1
18:17.51SamotIm explaining how many calls would have to be made PER SECOND to sustain that.
18:18.01drmessanolol
18:18.10Samot4-5 PER SECOND
18:18.13SamotEVERY SECOND
18:18.19zacky834-5 calls per second ok and §?
18:18.20drmessanozacky83: Do you know what an E1 is?
18:18.37zacky83yes messano
18:18.42drmessanoWHat is it?
18:18.49zacky83it can handle around 32 sim calls
18:19.11drmessanoROFL
18:19.13drmessanoNice google
18:19.27zacky83I bought a 4 x E1 pci card
18:19.40zacky83for tests
18:19.54drmessanoSo you just need 34 more and boxes to host them
18:20.01zacky83samot what is the problem with 4-5 call per second ?
18:20.04WIMPyIs google that wrong?
18:20.25WIMPyThere is also the option for channelized E3s.
18:20.26zacky83messano , no , my card has 4 x E1
18:20.26SamotBecause that's how many calls will be setup/tore down per second.
18:20.42SamotThe most resource intense part of the call.
18:21.08SamotOn top of that
18:21.12SamotThat's A LOT OF CALLS
18:21.16zacky83samot, isn't a powerful server able to deal with 4-5 call per second ?
18:21.17drmessanoWIMPy: First google search says 32 slots in the preview.. But we know it's 31 calls plus the D channel.  But you need to click the link to see that.  So 32 is the obvious "I just googled" answer
18:21.40[TK]D-Fenderzacky83> samot what is the problem with 4-5 call per second ? <- obviously Asterisk doesn't handle the load that well.  That is not what * is strong as.  You want basic call setup?  that's what efficient proxies & gateways are for.
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18:21.52[TK]D-FenderIt does not SCALE that well going upwards
18:21.57WIMPydrmessano: Wrong again.
18:22.04[TK]D-FenderSo the idea of running everything off one box is crazy
18:22.08drmessanoWIMPy: How so?
18:22.33WIMPyYou only have 30 B-channels.
18:22.39zacky83with 4 boxes then ?
18:22.44zacky83<[TK]D-Fender
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18:23.09SamotStop.
18:23.14drmessanoWIMPy: Ok, so it's 30 + 1.  Which makes 32 more obviously wrong
18:23.16SamotNo one is building this for you.
18:23.25SamotGo learn and do research.
18:23.52WIMPythere are 32 time slots. That part is correct.
18:24.03drmessanoYoure not even getting my point
18:24.09drmessanoIf you google E1
18:24.18drmessanoThe top hit says "32 slots"
18:24.22drmessanoHe answered 32
18:24.33drmessanoWhich means "I just did a quick Google"
18:24.58zacky83messano I bought a 4xE1 weeks ago so I know for the 32 slots
18:25.06drmessanoIts not 32
18:25.10zacky8331
18:25.28drmessanoAs WIMPy said it's 30 B channels
18:26.08Samot0 and 16 are "un-usable"
18:26.22SamotI recall this with the India provider.
18:26.22zacky83there are 8xE1 PCI cards , this mean 240 sim calls . are you telling asterisk can not handle that ?
18:26.34SamotOn no, it can handle that.
18:26.34[TK]D-Fender30B asuming no shared B chan.... bu let's not get dangerous here...
18:26.56[TK]D-Fenderzacky83> there are 8xE1 PCI cards , this mean 240 sim calls . are you telling asterisk can not handle that ? <- you're asking for 1000
18:27.07[TK]D-FenderDon't go screwing with the numbers for what we advise
18:27.12SamotYes, Asterisk can handle 1,000.
18:27.20SamotI have Asterisk boxes doing 1,800
18:27.20[TK]D-Fender10000
18:27.22[TK]D-Fendermissed a 0
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18:27.30SamotSim calls.
18:27.35zacky83samot 1800 sim calls ?
18:27.39SamotBut it's all it does, makes calls.
18:27.46SamotIt's an automated alerts system.
18:27.50SamotIt doesn't have "users"
18:27.54Samotor devices.
18:28.07Samotcallfiles and provider trunks..
18:28.25zacky83you have 1800 sim calls, I asked for 1000 with a powerful server
18:28.37SamotI just explained the difference.
18:28.49SamotIt's a box that doesn't have devices or users.
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18:28.56SamotIt makes outbound calls only.
18:29.01SamotAnd not ALL the time.
18:29.09zacky83ok then I will take 4 servers dealing 250 sim call if the cpu is too short
18:29.10SamotLike 4 times a day or more.
18:29.28SamotThe fact you will have devices and users changes how the resources are being used.
18:29.37drmessanoAll this for calling that nobody will use
18:29.58zacky83samot , so in my case , with users. how much can I achieve?
18:30.06SamotI have no fucking clue.
18:30.10SamotThere's no plan.
18:30.18SamotNo real description of what the hell you are doing.
18:30.32zacky83just sip conferencing
18:30.38SamotYou are trying to build a god damn ITSP in #asterisk without knowing the basic of Telephony.
18:30.46drmessanoSIP conferencing now?
18:30.51SamotFFS.
18:31.11zacky83FFS ?
18:31.22SamotI'm sure you can google it.
18:31.33drmessanoJust like E1
18:31.44zacky83messano I never googled it
18:31.50SamotYou asked "why call the media?" when I was referring to media as in audio..
18:31.56SamotYou thought I wanted to call the press.
18:32.27zacky83samot I am just starting on asterisk and I appreciate your expertise
18:32.43zacky83this does not mean my ideas are bad and that I will not succeed
18:32.45SamotThen listen to what people have been telling you.
18:32.57SamotBased on what you've said so far...
18:33.03SamotIt's not a good idea.
18:33.10zacky83you are very pessimistic
18:33.14SamotNo.
18:33.18SamotRealistic.
18:33.27drmessanoNothing to do with optimism
18:33.37drmessanoYou've given sales answers to technical questions
18:33.45SamotI just watch a client scrap two years and hundreds of thousands of dollars on an APP that he can't get off the ground.
18:33.45zacky83I hade the same critics at start and I made a 3M unique visitor website
18:33.55SamotOverall?
18:33.58SamotIn a month?
18:34.00zacky83monthly
18:34.06WIMPyJust because something is a bad idea doesn't mean it won't be a success. In fac it actually seems to help these days.
18:34.07SamotWhat type of site?
18:34.09drmessano3M hits a month, including DDOS
18:34.42zacky83I have to go to the supermarket, I will be back in one hour
18:34.50SamotWIMPy: This is a classic case of a VoIP quick cash scheme.
18:35.07zacky83it is always nice to discuss with people not sharing the same vision
18:35.10SamotI've had so many talks with people from the Middle East and that area of the world about this.
18:35.24SamotAnd when it comes down to it, they all flake.
18:35.28WIMPyThe whole VoIP story is a quick cash scheme. So he must be on the right track.
18:35.37SamotNo it is not.
18:35.41SamotNot when it's done right.
18:35.47SamotBut, I'm silly.
18:35.53drmessanoHe hasnt even researched
18:36.07SamotI treat VoIP service as a Telecom Utility service.
18:36.26SamotYou know, like any other "traditional" telephone service.
18:36.43SamotI guess having to answer to the Feds for half my Telecom carrier does that.
18:37.40SamotThose pesky Telecommunications and Public Utility rules..
18:38.05drmessanoIf you have to google for answers while you're being questioned, thats not a good sign
18:38.41SamotIf you don't know why Calls Per Second or Answer Seizure Rates are important, that's also bad.
18:39.38drmessanoHe's basically going to wrap Wifi calling into some text/video chat app
18:39.49drmessanoWhich in 2013 would have been neat
18:40.18SamotAgain, I think I had six major projects offered to me last year alone from that part of the world..
18:40.22drmessanoIf I call Steve and he's not connected to the server, the call routes over SIP -> ISDN > PSTN
18:40.26SamotThey have very lofty ideas.
18:40.32drmessanoIf he is, it goes over Wifi
18:40.39drmessanoBut thats Wifi calling
18:40.40SamotVery cavalier about spending money..
18:40.50SamotUntil it's time to actually spend money.
18:41.03SamotOr have to do the footwork for things.
18:41.05drmessanoand I can do Wifi calling to and from Steve with the tools the carriers now employ
18:41.10drmessanoIts baked in
18:41.25drmessanoI use Wifi calling a LOT
18:41.33drmessanoAs a matter of fact
18:42.12drmessanoI get 1 bar in my office.  I maybe miss 5 out of 100 calls.. have one drop now and then
18:42.28drmessanoI noticed my phone defaults to Wifi calling now when I get in my office
18:42.37drmessanoThats pretty fucking neato
18:43.02drmessanoI havent had a call mysteriously go to voicemail or drop a call since
18:43.48drmessanoI know so many people that "don't get calls at home" that have benefited from it
18:44.09drmessanoI will give him credit that he IS trying to solve THAT problem
18:44.13drmessanoBut it's already been solved
18:44.27drmessanoNo need for an app anymore
18:47.01drmessanoI wonder if WhatsApp or ANY voice app could now, with IOS 10, determine a user is offline for calls and instead route the call to their PSTN number on file, using your phones dialer
18:47.28drmessanoBecause Apple loosened up a bunch of the permissions to permit apps to access the phone functions
18:47.57drmessanoIf so, WhatsApp or anyone else could put him out of business before he's started..
18:48.40SamotWell this started because he asked how to "dynamically configure" 10,000 accounts on Asterisk...
18:48.43Samot"on the fly"
18:49.02SamotThen complained he didn't want to use RealTime because of SQL.
18:49.12SamotBut doesn't want 10,000 accounts in his sip.conf
18:49.22SamotOr have to edit the sip.conf all the time, etc..
18:49.46drmessanoWell, that's definitely one of his problems.  I just think he sees a lot of value in the "adaptive calling" portion, and I think that market is dead
18:50.17SamotWell just very, very hard to break into.
18:50.30SamotAnd make anything return a value.
18:50.31drmessanoWifi calling kills it though
18:50.43drmessanoand I believe Wifi calling does SMS too?
18:50.57drmessanoSurely it does
18:51.52drmessanoSo baked-in carrier seamless call routing blows his app up
18:52.22drmessanoand from the app side, WhatsApp can access the Android Dialer.. probably the IOS dialer, so it could route the calls as needed
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18:56.02drmessanoif he wants to make a quick buck
18:56.17drmessanoHe should focus on encryption
18:56.32drmessanoBecause secure messaging is the talk of the Libtards
18:56.55drmessanoTrump removing all our freedoms, etc.  People are making bank on the paranoia
19:10.25SamotIt's the whole "I'll get into the cutting edge stuff once the big guys have the market"
19:10.45SamotIt should have been when the big guys where waiting for one of them to take the leap.
19:11.33drmessanoCopying is only a good thing if you're taking something that someone else is doing and FIXING what sucks about it
19:11.37SamotIt's also when the big guys are watching the little guys to see how well / bad they do.
19:11.47drmessanohe mentioned Snapchat earlier
19:12.06drmessanoThat was new
19:12.07Samot"First to market" is a double edge sword.
19:12.22drmessanoEveryone that tried to copy it has failed
19:12.29SamotTrue.
19:12.43SamotBut the thing is..
19:12.52drmessano14:12:08 <Samot> "First to market" is a double edge sword.  <-- Just ask Meerkat
19:12.53SamotIf they can get something on par...
19:13.09drmessanoMeerkat was copied by Twitter as Periscope
19:13.12drmessanoGuess who won
19:13.16SamotYup.
19:13.25drmessanoBecause they made it suck less
19:13.32SamotSometimes the first to market isn't always the winner.
19:13.42SamotBecause the other guys get to see how it happens.
19:13.57drmessanoI know Apple would never do this
19:13.58SamotAnd avoid any pitfalls.
19:14.04drmessanoBut if they wanted to crush a lot of the market
19:14.12drmessanoiMessage for Android
19:14.29drmessanoWhich is what Blackberry SHOULD have done with BBIM
19:14.33SamotWhen I was using an iPhone, the iMessage was a good thing.
19:14.35drmessanoThey did, WAY too late
19:14.40SamotYup
19:14.56SamotBlackberry...
19:15.00drmessanoIf they had brought BBIM to Windows mobile, Android, and IOS back then
19:15.01drmessanoWOW
19:15.04SamotA good idea done horrible.
19:15.42drmessanoThe only thing missing from iMessage is usernames
19:15.45*** join/#asterisk friedrich (~friedrich@aextron.de)
19:16.09drmessanoThe only thing missing from Facebook Messenger is simple sign up, without having a full FB Account
19:16.18drmessanoTheres a lot of "If only.."
19:16.46SamotBlackbeery was poised to take the market.
19:16.51SamotBlackberry
19:17.10SamotTo the point, we even invested in a BES system.
19:17.46SamotIt went from being a driving product to a "yeah we have it for people who just haven't let go"
19:17.58drmessanoWhen I worked for an MSP in 2008-2009, we had LOTS of BES deployments
19:18.05SamotYup.
19:18.08drmessanoit was almost a standard install
19:18.16SamotAnd then...
19:18.21drmessanoThey got SBS, they pretty much got BES
19:18.24SamotYou just didn't upgrade to make the users leave.
19:18.37drmessanoOne thing killed Blackberry
19:18.42SamotBecause BES was no longer selling.
19:18.45drmessanoI can narrow it to ONE thing
19:19.01drmessanoThe Torch and the iPhone debuted at the same time
19:19.12drmessanoGuess which one worked?
19:19.18SamotYeah.
19:19.28SamotTorch..
19:19.36SamotKinda an ironic name.
19:19.43SamotBecause it burned them hard.
19:19.56drmessanoI love a good hyperbole, dont get me wrong
19:20.00drmessanoBut the Torch
19:20.43drmessanoWe had SO MANY customers ditch for the iPhone.. and it was because of the Torch.  Lots of organizations got ONE, decided they were fucked if they didnt switch to the iPhone
19:21.09drmessanoI'll add this in too
19:21.40drmessanoOne of the same reasons I dislike Android in general is the same problem I had with Blackberries
19:21.47Samot?
19:21.49drmessanoCarrier controlled updates
19:21.55SamotAhh
19:22.35drmessanoBecause specifically with the Torch, they did fix SOME of the BIG issues.. like the address book just going blank and other buggy shit.. The stuff that wasnt *poor design*.
19:22.51drmessanoBut the carriers were so slow to release updates, as they were with any BBOS releases
19:23.12drmessano"Yeah, BB fixed that, but we have no idea when Verizon is going to push that update"
19:23.34drmessanoCustomers dont care that its Verizon.  Their phone is fucked, and they want it fixed
19:23.55SamotThat is a PITA.
19:24.07drmessanoWe used to grab updates from european carriers
19:24.20drmessanoYou could unpack them and change the region file or something..
19:24.27drmessanoor maybe it was some carrier ini
19:24.43drmessanoand then zip it back up, drop it in Blackberry Desktop, and update
19:25.14drmessanoBut that was luck and ALSO relied on other carriers being more cavalier
19:25.47zacky83I m back
19:25.59zacky83do you know ONOFF app
19:26.01zacky83?
19:26.23zacky83they offer extra number for 3€
19:26.40zacky83they raised a lot of money
19:26.50drmessanoThey raised a lot of capital
19:26.54drmessanoYou mean
19:27.03drmessano"raised" != Earnings
19:27.09zacky83they raised millions for this app
19:27.23drmessano*Raised*
19:27.24zacky83and I offer almost the same for free
19:27.27drmessano"raised" != Earnings
19:27.44drmessanoSo you're expecting some angel to come in and give you a shit ton of capital
19:27.53drmessanoBasically youre building a bubble
19:27.56zacky83no I don't need money
19:28.11drmessanoYou said they raised money, and that was your comparison
19:28.17SamotRaised means they owe people money.
19:28.21zacky83just to say this app has low features and is expensive
19:28.32SamotBecause they own invenstors.
19:28.41zacky83Raised mean they convince people to pay
19:28.54zacky83for the dev
19:28.58SamotRight.
19:29.03SamotInvestors.
19:29.26SamotOr did they do a GoFundMe campaign? Either way people gave money with an expectation of something in return.
19:29.38drmessanolol
19:29.39zacky83I am not asking you to invest in my app , but if they succeed to get millions for a paying service and that I offer a free service with better things
19:29.40SamotInvestors have this thing about seeing a return.
19:29.53drmessanozacky83: Do you understand the difference between raising capital and actual profitability
19:29.53SamotNo one is "paying for the service"
19:30.04SamotSomeone has paid them to "develop" a service.
19:30.12SamotThat they will use to sell to people and make revenue with.
19:30.19drmessanoI just found OnOff on a capital "dating" site, so to speak
19:30.19zacky83messano yes . but you should be conscious getting an extra number is interesting
19:30.29drmessanoAdvertising the company for other investors
19:30.45drmessanozacky83: I have lots of extra numbers and I pay for none of them
19:31.00zacky83messano how is this possible?
19:31.06drmessanoApps
19:31.14zacky83free apps ?
19:31.19drmessanoYes
19:31.28zacky83which ones?
19:31.43SamotIs Google broken for you?
19:31.54drmessanoHave you even researched the market?
19:32.01SamotI doubt it.
19:32.04zacky83I thought only onoff offered this in europe
19:32.17zacky83I don't aim usa or the rest of the world
19:32.32zacky83samot you re in the USA?
19:32.37SamotYes.
19:32.41SamotWell no.
19:32.42SamotCanada.
19:32.47SamotBut I'm from the US.
19:32.59zacky83US market /canada is very different for telephony
19:33.17zacky83messano are you in europe ?
19:33.17SamotBut the basics are pretty much the same.
19:33.49WIMPyis not so sure about that.
19:33.50SamotConsidering the US basically create the PSTN.
19:34.05zacky83I try to focus on one market or two
19:34.11SamotThe basics of telephony are different in EU than the US?
19:34.13SamotCPS?
19:34.14WIMPyAnd kept it unchanged ever since :-)
19:34.15SamotACD?
19:34.19SamotBusy Hours?
19:34.31SamotManaging the services..
19:34.36SamotMarket research?
19:34.43SamotBasics...
19:35.05zacky83samot , for example calling usa is free for european persons , but europe make paying calls inside their countries
19:35.15Samot???
19:35.17SamotHAHA
19:35.20SamotOK.
19:35.31SamotIt's not "free"
19:35.35SamotSomeone is paying for it.
19:35.47Samotand if it's part of the phone service package, then you are paying for it.
19:35.58drmessanoI've always understood Europe to much more progressive
19:36.08drmessanoto be*
19:36.19SamotI'm not going to charge you a call to NY but I will charge you to call the next city over?
19:36.24SamotThat's not really "progressive"
19:36.26drmessanoEmerging mobile technologies and all
19:36.34SamotNo, that they are kicking ass on.
19:36.42drmessanoOh as far as calling rates, yes
19:36.57zacky83drmessano are you located in europe  ?
19:37.00drmessanoYeah their rules and regulations are archaic
19:37.15drmessanoBut as far as mobile network and handset features
19:37.21drmessanoLike Wifi calling
19:38.01drmessanoAustralia is/was like that too
19:38.16SamotIt doesn't matter what part of the world you are from.
19:38.20drmessanoThey pay out the ass, but they take our lunch on new shit
19:38.33SamotAsterisk box + PSTN connection + billing software does not make you a VoIP provider.
19:38.43drmessanoEveryone in OZ was doing Free SMS in 2000
19:38.59drmessanoWe were still paying for it for another decade
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19:39.29drmessanoI could send 100 texts per month with SunCom
19:39.33drmessanoFree
19:39.39drmessanoBuy 300 more for $10
19:42.11zacky83drmessano just checked the wificalling on iphone 6S , not available
19:42.37zacky83in my country I think
19:42.38drmessanozacky83: What country are YOU in?
19:42.41ChannelZIf Apple doesn't do it, clearly nobody needs to.
19:42.42zacky83France
19:42.57zacky83drmessano what is your country ?
19:43.53drmessanoOrange offers it in France.. I got that from a google search
19:44.06drmessanoI could keep googling and find others
19:44.09drmessano5c or later
19:44.17drmessanoand probably any number of Android devices
19:44.26zacky83not on my carrier
19:44.30drmessanoOrange Neva 80
19:44.39drmessanoJust googled and they offer it on that device
19:44.54drmessanozacky83: Who is your carrier?
19:45.01zacky83bouygues
19:45.18drmessanoheh
19:45.50drmessanoOk, so you have a budget carrier
19:45.58zacky83no
19:47.13drmessanoYes
19:48.31zacky83searched for it, not available on most carriers
19:48.36drmessanoROFL
19:48.43drmessanoThats not true AT ALL
19:49.03zacky83do you read french ?
19:49.09SamotRofl.
19:49.15SamotIt's the Internet, he doesn't have to
19:49.20drmessanoOh thats clever
19:49.23SamotHe can hit the "Translate" button.
19:49.38drmessanoIm missing all the french websites that clearly state they dont support Wifi calling
19:49.51drmessanoEven though I can google a list of carriers in france that do
19:49.55zacky83<PROTECTED>
19:50.06drmessanoThats YOURS
19:50.27zacky83there are 4 carriers in *France
19:50.39zacky83orange , sfr , bouygues , free
19:51.26zacky83drmessano are you located in europe ?
19:52.24drmessanohttp://www.iphon.fr/post/apres-orange-sfr-et-bouygues-telecom-preparent-la-voix-sur-wifi-854122
19:52.38drmessanoThat was from June
19:53.12zacky83nothing moved since
19:54.11zacky83just to understand you , what is your country ?
19:54.16drmessanoYou didnt even know what it was 2 hours ago, how are you an expert now on who has deployed it?
19:54.51zacky83because I looked at this underground option ,and it is not available on Bouygues
19:55.16SamotPlus the Carrier is listed on Apples "Supports Wifi Calling" list.
19:55.48zacky83I think only orange supports it
19:55.52drmessanoIts not underground
19:56.00SamotBouygues : FaceTime over Cellular1 : LTE : Personal : Hotspot2 : Unlocking2 : Visual Voicemail : VoLTE5
19:57.06drmessanoThat list is also slightly lagging
19:57.30drmessanoWith it being so extensive, understandably so
19:57.36SamotEither way, if the don't have it now it appears they're getting ready to do so.
19:57.51drmessanoYeah, like tomorrow or next week kinda ready
19:58.01drmessanoEspecially if they have VoLTE
19:59.19SamotIt sounds like you're trying to fix a problem that solutions exist for. By the time you get yours in place, the other major carriers can have Wifi calling in place.
19:59.38SamotThey aren't going to let one of their main competitors take that business.
19:59.46drmessanoThis "underground feature" negates all of your automagic Wifi <> PSTN and PSTN <> Wifi calls
20:00.59SamotAnd the thing about Wifi Calling...
20:01.19SamotThere will be people that will use it that wouldn't install an app to do the same thing now.
20:01.31SamotBecause they don't want all the extra app crap, they want the one feature.
20:01.41zacky83it is a pack of features
20:01.48SamotIf they want the features.
20:02.01zacky83and not everybody understand how to activate wifi calling
20:02.02drmessanoWho wants to do that when they have SEAMLESS calling
20:02.04SamotPeople aren't going to get something with 12 feature when they only want 1 of them.
20:02.17SamotNot when they can get that 1 feature, by itself, elsewhere.
20:02.34zacky83samot , I like apps that have multiple features in it
20:02.39SamotSo?
20:02.43SamotA lot of people do.
20:02.45drmessanoI like puppies
20:02.46SamotAnd a lot of people don't.
20:03.00drmessanoBut not puppies with 10 legs
20:03.19SamotYou're offering a service that major carrier and mobile device makers are putting in place..
20:03.25SamotThat will do it better.
20:03.28SamotMore integrated.
20:03.36zacky83so you will keep on using whatsapp if you have something with more feature ?
20:03.47SamotI use Whatsapp for a specific purpose.
20:04.02SamotTo allow those that would have International charges for texting/calling me.
20:04.06SamotAnd vice versa.
20:04.19SamotI don't use Whatsapp for people that can text/call me for free.
20:04.24SamotThat's dumb.
20:04.52SamotSo maybe 1% of my text/calls are handle via Whatsapp.
20:04.59SamotBecause I also have Skype.
20:05.04SamotLike millions of people.
20:05.52zacky83people do not like their data to be hosted in USA , I ll be the first european messenging app ;)
20:06.19SamotBecause of EU laws.
20:06.26SamotSo you're going to follow all those laws?
20:06.50SamotYou're using baseless things to make a conclusion from.
20:07.20zacky83I think too much things are hosted and decided in the USA , I think we need alternatives
20:07.30SamotThe fact you are failing to acknowledge any risk issues or that there will be problems is a major red flag.
20:07.31zacky83don't you agree ?
20:07.51SamotWho decides to host in the US?
20:08.01SamotThat's someone decision.
20:08.08drmessanoYeah I would consider anything hosted in the US to be suspect
20:08.20zacky83google , microsoft , twitter etc ... all is in USA
20:08.27drmessanoYep, all insecure
20:08.35SamotGenerally people in other parts of the world, like India, hosted in my data center because their data center connections sucked.
20:08.58SamotAnd when they had a big non-India base, they wanted faster response times.
20:08.59drmessanoI would sink as much as you can into this app
20:09.29SamotIf you refuse to acknowledge the fact there will be risks and pitfalls, you are dooming yourself.
20:09.46drmessanoWhy innovate when you can imitate and claim "They dont have that here!"...
20:09.48zacky83samot , what risk are you talking about ?
20:09.59SamotThe fact you have to ask that....
20:10.07SamotConsumer demand.
20:10.10SamotMarketing..
20:10.12drmessanoYou know that building services based on geographic ignorance is a failing proposition, right?
20:10.14SamotCompetition..
20:10.30SamotRevenue stream...
20:10.32zacky83messano , what do you mean ?
20:10.50SamotCost of acquisitions..
20:11.12zacky83samot , I focus only on one market . and I will do marketing on my website
20:11.21drmessanozacky83: Building something under the premise that "Well, it hasnt rolled out here" when the train is CLEARLY coming FAST, just means you havent been hit yet by it
20:11.36SamotMarket knowledge.
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20:12.08zacky83messano I don't understand your point
20:12.17SamotYou have failed to demonstrate that you understand this business, let alone the market you are entering.
20:12.39SamotHe saying..
20:12.57SamotThat next month your carrier and the other carriers can announce they are rolling out Wifi calling..
20:13.10SamotThat will be the solution to the issue you are trying to address...
20:13.21SamotThey announced they were bringing it LAST YEAR.
20:13.35zacky83samot , no , this is only a feature among others
20:13.59SamotBut it's the one feature that requires you to invest in numbers, E1 lines and a voice network..
20:14.20SamotAre the other features going to be enough revenue to cover the fact you're losing money on the voice portion?
20:14.27zacky83yes because I feel offering telephony is important ,and offering extra numbers.
20:14.31drmessanozacky83: You have clearly argued that your product isn't irrelevant because "They dont have that here yet"
20:14.38SamotBut is it PROFITABLE?
20:14.41drmessanozacky83: But that's going to change, SOON..
20:14.46drmessanozacky83: So WHAT THEN?
20:14.58SamotI get that you want voice in your service offering..
20:15.08SamotBut it's an expensive service to offer.
20:15.10zacky83and extra number
20:15.10drmessanoWifi Calling is HERE
20:15.21drmessanoIts a WAY OF LIFE
20:15.21SamotSo how will you cover those costs?!
20:15.25zacky83and messaging
20:15.30SamotIf no one uses your voice network..
20:15.34drmessanoMaybe it will be 3 weeks before your carrier has it
20:15.34SamotOr barely uses it..
20:15.41SamotHow will it be a money maker?
20:15.44drmessanoBut its ALIVE and out in the wild
20:16.01SamotHow do you justify the costs of what is needed to supply the service?!
20:16.03zacky83the costly part is to buy servers and PCI cards
20:16.08drmessanoSo youre going still going to build something that does the same thing because "Well, its not on my phone yet"
20:16.19SamotHow many *PAYING* users do you need to make your voice network not bleed money?
20:16.35drmessanozacky83: How much will 35 E1's cost you per month?
20:16.45zacky83I will rely on ads too
20:16.50drmessano.......
20:16.56SamotThat's not how ad revenue works.
20:17.03SamotIf they don't make money off your buy...
20:17.12SamotThey won't rebuy
20:17.13drmessanoI've never seen a goalpost move this much in my life
20:17.17drmessanoEven in JV football
20:17.35SamotAgain, you're using baseless things for a conclusion.
20:17.37zacky83the costly part is to buy the hardware
20:17.41SamotNo it's not.
20:17.42drmessanoNo its not
20:17.45zacky83after that , it will be very little money
20:17.48drmessanoROFL
20:17.51SamotOK.
20:18.04Samot<-- 23 years in the provider sector.
20:18.04drmessanoSamot: How much do you think a FULL E1 runs per month?
20:18.12drmessanoIn France
20:18.15Samot<-- 13 years in Tier 1/2 Telecom.
20:18.20SamotWell...
20:18.28drmessanoWe need 35 of them
20:18.33SamotIt's about 500Kbps faster than a T1
20:18.47SamotThe going rate for a T1 is about $100 to $150 on a good day.
20:18.56zacky83I will run around 4 x 8 xE1
20:19.06SamotSo you can pad that by another $75
20:19.09zacky83so I have to buy those cards
20:19.13SamotSo lets say $200 for an E1
20:19.21zacky83no no
20:19.21Samot34 of them..
20:19.28SamotHow much is an E1 circuit?
20:19.29zacky83I will buy the hardware
20:19.46SamotWhat hardware?
20:19.48zacky838 E1 is around 1500€
20:19.51drmessanozacky83: Thats $7300 a month
20:20.01zacky83so with 6000 € I have th hardware
20:20.03zacky83no
20:20.06drmessanoYes
20:20.07Samot?
20:20.08zacky83once for the life
20:20.11drmessanoNO
20:20.11SamotNo.
20:20.15SamotThat's not how that works my friend.
20:20.18drmessanoYou have to pay for the LINES
20:20.24SamotThere is monthly costs for that E1
20:20.28drmessano34 E1s from your telco
20:20.34zacky83but I will be a telecom operator
20:20.38drmessanoROFL
20:20.39drmessanoNO
20:20.40SamotNo you will NOT
20:20.45drmessanoYou still have to connect to the PSTN
20:20.55SamotA real Telecom operator has a direct connection to the PSTN
20:21.05SamotHas peering contracts with other Telecoms.
20:21.17SamotIs regulated by the government of the country they are in.
20:21.33zacky83when being assigned the 10 000 numbers blocks , I will assign them to my datacenter with the PCI cards
20:21.34SamotHas a huge list of rules and regulations to follow
20:21.39zacky83where is the cost in that ?
20:21.46drmessanozacky83: Those CARDS need LINES
20:21.48drmessanoE1s
20:21.52drmessano34 of them
20:21.54drmessanoPER MONTH
20:21.57SamotWhere are you getting 10,000 number blocks from?
20:22.03drmessano$200~ x 34
20:22.14zacky8310 000 number from government authority
20:22.14drmessano$6800
20:22.24drmessano$6800 PER MONTH for the E1s
20:22.39drmessanoMaybe a little less since you're doing bulk
20:22.50SamotIf you are becoming a "REAL" Telecom carrier...
20:23.14SamotYou're looking at HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS or MILLIONS in investment and operating costs.
20:23.25zacky83telecom operator will route all the calls to my 10 000 numbers to my asterisk server
20:23.26drmessanoIf you are becoming a real carrier, you'll have interconnect with the other carriers, and it will cost WAY more than $6800 a month
20:23.32drmessanoYES THEY WILL
20:23.33SamotWhoa..
20:23.34drmessanoOver E1
20:23.40drmessano$6800 PER MONTH for the E1s
20:23.42SamotThen you are not a Telecom Operator.
20:24.05drmessanozacky83: Those cards enable you to accept E1 lines
20:24.08drmessanoDo you follow that much?
20:24.34zacky83so you are telling me that operators will route incoming calls to me for 200$ per month  .? right ?
20:24.39drmessanoNo
20:24.43drmessano$200 PER E1
20:24.46SamotNot at all.
20:25.05drmessanoYou will get calls over the E1 from a telecom you pay
20:25.12drmessano$200 per E1
20:25.18drmessanoTHats $6800 USD
20:25.23drmessanoPER MONTH
20:25.48zacky83ok that s an interesting point , I thought that as a telecom operator they will route that for free
20:25.48SamotIf there is a Telecom carrier between you and the PSTN...
20:25.53SamotNO
20:25.55drmessanoROFLLLLLLL
20:26.02drmessanoWait
20:26.14drmessanoThis like a Michael moment from The Office
20:26.30drmessano"I DECLARE.. BANKRUPTCY!!!"
20:26.30SamotI have invested A LOT of money, time and resources into my network.
20:26.48SamotAnd my carriers don't route shit for free to me.
20:27.07SamotI have to pay for the DIDs.
20:27.10drmessanozacky83: You have to pay for services.. you dont just throw a box into a data center with some cards in it and start calling yourself a telco
20:27.18SamotI have to pay usage...
20:27.18zacky83you tell me 200$ per E1 per month , but maybe in some countries it is not that price
20:27.29drmessano......
20:27.29SamotWe don't know.
20:27.35drmessanoIt wont be less
20:27.38SamotWe're speculating based on T1 costs.
20:27.42zacky83I will ask
20:27.48drmessano$150 for a T1
20:27.50SamotAnd since E1's offer more channels and bandwidth..
20:27.51drmessanoEven if
20:28.09*** join/#asterisk Rini (uid196547@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sipascegfzgnqsdo)
20:28.11drmessanoEVEN IF it's $150 a month.. thats $5000
20:28.17drmessanoa month
20:28.21SamotFor your connection.
20:28.25drmessanoYes
20:28.29SamotNot counting your data center rates.
20:28.30drmessanoJust to have the E1s hot
20:28.38SamotYou DID rates.
20:28.41SamotYour usage rates.
20:28.42zacky83data center 350€ to get 1 Gbit bandwidth
20:28.51SamotOK.
20:28.57zacky83DID cost almost nothing
20:29.02SamotBut they COST
20:29.08drmessanoThey normally dont cost much.. thats meaningless
20:29.11drmessanoA DID is just a number
20:29.14drmessanoIts not a LINE
20:29.22drmessanoYou need LINES
20:29.23SamotEvery cost has to be accounted for.
20:29.31Samot10,000 BLOCKS
20:29.35SamotThat's $$$$$
20:29.42drmessanoMaybe I should reiterate that
20:29.45drmessanoDID's are NOT LINES
20:29.52SamotYup.
20:29.56zacky83no it is very cheap
20:29.57drmessanoBuying 10000 DID's just gives you DIDs
20:30.01SamotRight.
20:30.06drmessanoYou need 1000 LINES
20:30.09SamotBut he's brushing off their costs.
20:30.18SamotWhich is bad.
20:30.28drmessanoand THAT is the big cost
20:30.47zacky83I need to have the info on how much it cost to route external calls to me
20:30.52SamotTo have 1000 sim calls you need to support 1000 calls..
20:30.55zacky83from the 4 main carriers
20:31.05SamotUsing an E1 means you are limited to 30 calls per E1
20:31.19zacky83yes I know I need over 30 E1
20:31.20drmessanoSo 34 of them
20:31.27ConSiSeriously, I've read 3 hours of arguing about wonderful application which will be written by guy that doesn't want to use SQL. And it will get 100k+ downloads
20:31.37drmessanoConSi: Pretty much
20:31.45SamotSorry
20:31.51SamotI was #triggered
20:32.00SamotI take being a VoIP provider seriously.
20:32.18drmessanoand no concept of monthly costs for all these ISDN lines
20:32.24zacky83samot are you a voip provider yourself ?
20:32.49drmessanoYour first months bill for telecom will likely be close to your server and hardware purchases
20:32.50SamotYes.
20:32.57drmessanoIf not 2 months
20:33.03SamotI have been in the sector for over 13 years.
20:33.28SamotI have worked for actual Tier 1 carriers, fully regulated by the government..
20:34.00SamotI was privy to the Net Neutrality hearings because our company was part of the hearings.
20:34.15SamotAt both State and Federal levels.
20:35.05drmessanoI repair cell phones for Kanye West and the Kardashians
20:35.13SamotI have dealt with departments of ATT, Verizon, Qwest/CenturyLink, Level3 and others that most would never even know existed.
20:35.22drmessanoSo I am kind of a big deal
20:35.58SamotOh yeah, I told the French police about you using their cell phones to track them to get robbed.
20:36.06SamotYou'll be getting a visit soon.
20:36.08SamotFYI.
20:36.12ConSiSo one guy from Toulon France has a brilliant idea which will be a voip game changer, but apparently it isn't and you guys are still trying explian him why he is wrong?
20:36.19ConSiJust stop wasting time :P
20:36.44drmessanoConSi: You dont find this entertaining?
20:36.48SamotConSi: Voice service is a utility service. I think that is standard in EU.
20:36.50drmessanoIm only here for the lulz
20:36.56SamotWhich means people expect certain things...
20:37.03ConSidrmessano: 3 hours of your life, that are gone forever :>
20:37.13SamotLike "Why doesn't my emergency call go through?"
20:37.22SamotIt's Saturday, we're bored.
20:37.30drmessanoConSi: Dude, i've been doing this for 12 years.   It's more like MONTHS now
20:37.34ConSi:D
20:37.41drmessanoI could take up smoking
20:37.45drmessanoand live longer
20:38.16SamotI find that alcohol preserves  you pretty good.
20:38.25SamotAt least a lot of whisker.
20:38.28SamotAt least a lot of whiskey.
20:39.33drmessanoHonestly though
20:39.37drmessanoSomeone was wrong on the internet
20:39.42SamotYup.
20:39.44SamotI know.
20:39.45drmessanoWhat else do you need?
20:39.46*** join/#asterisk friedrich (~friedrich@aextron.de)
20:39.57SamotAnd not just wrong...
20:40.04SamotI mean WRONG.
20:40.09drmessanoKA-WRONG
20:40.28drmessanoThough I would like to be there when the first E1 bill comes in
20:40.44SamotAnd really, when you have passion about something and people are getting it wrong and smashing it to pieces...
20:40.49SamotYou tend to fight for it.
20:41.07ConSidrmessano: E1 bill after first fraud on pbx
20:41.15drmessanoConSi: Oh THAT too
20:41.25SamotOh that's not even the E1 bill.
20:41.31SamotThat's just the usage charge.
20:41.35drmessanobecause, free calls are free because I declared myself a telco
20:41.48drmessanoI DECLARE...  TELCO
20:42.12drmessanoheads for meme generator
20:42.13SamotI don't care if DIDs are $0.15/month per DID that's still $1500/month
20:42.31SamotThat's still something you should have to account for.
20:42.42zacky83DID are much cheaper in blocks
20:42.52SamotIt DOESN'T MATTER
20:42.56SamotIt's a COST
20:43.01SamotThat you have to cover.
20:43.02zacky83epsilon
20:43.40SamotHow much time you spend supporting a customer...COST
20:43.44ConSiSamot: maybe he is a multi-millionaire and he is going to spend money just to run service for free
20:43.57ConSi(until his money eventually run out :>)
20:44.21drmessanohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuGIgf-ICHM
20:44.24zacky83when you launch an app you first invest then expect for it to work
20:44.33drmessanoPer Month
20:44.45drmessanoSame as your E1s
20:44.45SamotI have no idea that that statement means.
20:44.58Samot3:44:30 PM <zacky83> when you launch an app you first invest then expect for it to work <-- WUT?
20:45.02drmessanoReally, which bear is best?
20:46.08zacky83samot how much cost 10 000 numbers per year in your country ?
20:46.20SamotDepends on the deal I cut with the carrier.
20:46.36zacky83samot , just the numbers , not the lines
20:46.44SamotDepends on the deal I cut with the carrier.
20:47.25zacky83I think costs are very differents from one country to another
20:47.28drmessanoGive him an example.. Make it a best case
20:47.41SamotWell for 10,000?
20:47.43drmessanoBecause he going to continue to insist everything is cheaper than we say
20:47.48drmessanoBecause France
20:47.51zacky83samot per year
20:47.54SamotI'd get them for $0.05 without asking hard.
20:48.01SamotThey don't charge per year.
20:48.07drmessanoSo $500 a month
20:48.12SamotBecause DIDs do not have a "time period"
20:48.17SamotYes.
20:48.30SamotSo I would need to make sure I account for that $500 a month
20:48.32zacky83so there are very huges differences
20:48.37drmessanoI cant see the E1s being cheaper than the T1s figure we used
20:48.43drmessanozacky83: How so
20:48.53drmessanozacky83: How much are DIDs going to cost you?
20:48.55zacky83in over a 10 factor
20:49.02drmessano$500 a year?
20:49.09zacky83less
20:49.22drmessanoO.o
20:49.29SamotWell..
20:49.43Samotconsidering you though the E1s was a one time lifetime payment
20:49.54SamotI don't put much stock in this statement.
20:49.55drmessanozacky83: Doubtful
20:50.22zacky83samot , I wasn't knowing for E1 routing costs
20:50.32SamotYes.
20:50.34SamotI know.
20:50.39zacky83it does not mean I don't know things
20:50.49SamotWhich makes me believe you don't know the DID costs correctly.
20:51.00zacky83I asked the price
20:51.10drmessanoIm gonna find the most cut rate DID provider I can
20:51.19Samotzacky83: So far everything you have brought up has shown you don't have answers or the basic knowledge for most of this.
20:51.33ConSiI don't know how it works in france, but even If i assume that DIDs are for free in Poland you will need to do a pretty complicated reports yearly (which are costs time of employees), you are also obligated to be connected to emergency numbers routing system, inter telco number transfer system and this all costs money
20:51.38ConSi:>
20:51.57SamotNow I can see that.
20:52.11zacky83consi , are you in Poland ?
20:52.12SamotDIDs are free because they have to be connected to something that require a larger investment.
20:52.16ConSizacky83: yup
20:52.17drmessanoHe's not going to be the provider either
20:52.22drmessanoHe's going to be buying
20:52.26SamotThat's true.
20:52.47SamotNow in that case..
20:52.51SamotYes, it's annual.
20:52.54zacky83consi , is E1 routing to your infrastructure costly or free ?
20:53.09ConSiSamot: in poland you can get assignment from government, as big as you want but you need to document every number and make it reachable in system which can transfer it between telco operators
20:53.12SamotBecause you're paying for ownership of those blocks but you do have to show usage.
20:53.36SamotConSi: That's considered a Tier 1 Carrier.
20:53.49SamotConSi: They own the infrastructure that connects to the PSTN
20:53.53ConSiSamot: yes, but it's pretty simple here to have such infrastructure
20:53.57SamotAnd is part of the core PSTN routing.
20:54.05SamotYes, it's easy here too.
20:54.12SamotMoney, time, lots of paperwork..
20:54.16ConSiyes
20:54.21ConSiand people for this paperwork
20:54.22SamotBut that's a portion of it.
20:54.38SamotJust because I bought the DID blocks, filled out the paper work..
20:54.43SamotMeans nothing outside that I own DIDs.
20:54.49zacky83consi , apart from papers and time , how much cost just the routing to PBX infrastructure in Poland ?
20:54.50SamotWell here..
20:54.50ConSipeople that will handle systems with emergency routing exchange
20:54.56SamotFor you, you have to get into things.
20:54.57drmessanozacky83: You are a RESELLER
20:54.59ConSizacky83: it depends
20:55.06drmessanoYou dont just E1 for free
20:55.21Samotzacky83: At best you will be a Tier III provider.
20:55.23ConSiand, if the emergency routing will fail, you can be sued for causing a someone death
20:55.29ConSiand so on and so on... :D
20:55.33SamotYes.
20:55.42SamotAgain, this is why I get #triggered over these things.
20:55.44zacky83Consi , do you have a price in mind ?
20:55.50Samotzacky83: STOP.
20:55.55drmessanoI think he's missing the part where he's not a provider
20:56.04SamotNow you're just asking about pricing in markets that you're not even in.
20:56.14SamotWell he "is"
20:56.17SamotOr can be.
20:56.21SamotBut like Tier III
20:56.29SamotI'm going to guess Tier IV
20:56.59ConSihe is thinking that he will got an assignment and other carriers just accept him to exchange voice traffic with this assigned numbers
20:57.06ConSibut well, they will not :D
20:57.11SamotNo kidding.
20:57.22zacky83Consi , I am just asking you the price for it
20:57.57Samotzacky83: People don't like talking about their money directly.
20:58.20SamotWhat ConSi's company gets has no bearing on you.
20:58.49SamotCarriers may have "pricing templates" but they'll adjust pricing based on the deal you can make with them.
20:58.59zacky83ok
20:58.59drmessanoConSi: How much could a startup expect to pay in Poland for 34 E1s?
20:59.10drmessanoConSi: Someone without an "in"
20:59.12SamotThat's a better way to ask the question.
21:00.23WIMPyHow many hours have you been writing senseless stuff here now?
21:00.30SamotWhich one of us?
21:00.45WIMPyAll
21:00.57SamotHow long have I been on IRC in this channel?
21:01.26zacky83IRC is supposed to help beginners to understand things , it is not senseless
21:01.54WIMPyDepends on the answers you get to your questions.
21:02.06SamotOr the questions.
21:02.41zacky83I see you all are long time experts here , this is not my case , I am curious and I want to create things
21:02.57SamotAnd our point...
21:02.59drmessanozacky83: Then open your EARS
21:03.04Samotyou are trying to create things out of your skillset.
21:03.07drmessanoor in this case, your EYES
21:03.22drmessanoArguing about constants is dumb
21:03.37drmessanoYou can argue all you want about how successful you plan to be
21:03.48drmessanoBut when someone says "Thats going to cost X"
21:03.51drmessanoand you reply "No"
21:03.57drmessanoThen Seriously, WTF
21:03.58zacky83I heared you when you warn me about e1 line monthly costs .
21:04.06SamotI recall I was going to be a touring rock icon 20 years ago..
21:04.13SamotI told people all about it..
21:04.17zacky83I need to have prices in europe too , and consi do not have this info maybe
21:04.30SamotYou need to do this on your own.
21:04.31drmessanoIt wont cost you less than we discussed
21:04.37Samot^ That
21:05.00SamotYou can look at thousands of dollars in monthly operation costs.
21:05.00drmessanoYou really expect to get a full E1 for $10 a month? lol
21:05.10drmessanoor even $100?
21:05.17SamotBefore you even calculate your own time/cost.
21:05.27zacky83drmessano , I will get the information
21:05.50SamotYou should of had this information before getting 10,000 DIDs from the government.
21:05.52zacky83I am highly motivated
21:05.53drmessanoDude
21:06.27drmessanoEven giving you lowball costs you argued that you could do better
21:06.54zacky83I only said prices where maybe different in different countries
21:06.54drmessanoSo even for the sake of argument, throwing out round numbers, you act like $6000 is off by $6000
21:07.05drmessanoYou cant accept ANY cost at this point because you seem to think its free
21:07.23SamotOr accept there are MONTHLY costs.
21:07.25zacky83I did not say that
21:07.42drmessanoOk, what if it's $3400 a month for the E1s?
21:08.07drmessanoThats $3400 more than you planned
21:08.19zacky833400$ per month is ok
21:08.30SamotNow add in usage
21:08.35SamotData center costs
21:08.42SamotCost of marketing, sales, support..
21:08.42WIMPySeems expensive.
21:08.49SamotBilling..
21:08.54zacky83what do you call usage cost ?
21:09.03drmessanoToll Fees
21:09.05SamotPer minute costs for outbound/inbound calls
21:09.11drmessanoThe cost of the actual CALLS
21:09.28drmessano$3400 is $100 per E1, per month, for just the LINE
21:09.34SamotIf you use 500,000 minutes in a month, you're paying for that.
21:09.37zacky83are you telling me I will pay for incoming calls ?
21:09.40SamotYes.
21:09.41drmessanoand thats probably undershooting it by 100%
21:09.42SamotAnd outgoing.
21:09.45[TK]D-Fenderjust having a PRI != long-distnace biolling for service, etc
21:09.50drmessano^ that
21:09.54SamotHave you done ANY research?
21:10.13[TK]D-FenderAlso not BOILING service.  That's under heating costs.
21:10.16drmessanoSo say $200 a month for an E1.. Which goes back to $6800
21:10.20WIMPyThat will not cost, off course. We're not in the US.
21:11.05WIMPywonders who is less realistic in here.
21:11.10SamotOK WIMPy, you're in the EU..
21:11.20SamotWhat's an E1 circuit run on average?
21:11.30zacky83I will also ask about if incoming calls are charged for a telecom operator
21:11.31drmessanoI think he'd rather insult than contribute, but that's normal
21:11.52SamotAnd OUTGOING
21:12.05SamotSince you're big app is all about outgoing calls.
21:12.06WIMPyA single E1 is 90 EUR.
21:12.15SamotSo about $150/US
21:12.18SamotOr a little more.
21:12.28SamotSo I was pretty damn close.
21:12.29zacky8390 eur is 95 $
21:13.16zacky83so we are around 3000€ for 34 E1s
21:13.19SamotDid Brexit really screw the Euro over that much?
21:13.28SamotOh well at least you have an IDEA
21:13.38SamotBut who knows what the E1 will cost YOU
21:13.38WIMPyWho would pay the same price in that volumes?
21:14.00SamotWell he's getting E1's from different carriers apparently.
21:14.03zacky83WIMPY , within this 90€ price for E1 , are incoming calls free or not ?
21:14.07SamotNO
21:14.11SamotE1 is for the LINE
21:14.13SamotThat's it.
21:14.14WIMPyOff course they are.
21:14.40verticeloIn Sweden operators pay you for incoming calls, why is that not the case in the US for example?
21:15.00verticelono line fees/channels to pay etc.. just revenue for every minute in
21:15.13SamotIn a lot of cases, incoming usage is not charged to the end user.
21:15.14WIMPyYes. Free would be the maximum price :-)
21:15.17zacky83verticelo , in sweden it is free and you are paid for incoming calls ?
21:15.42drmessanoExcept he's not an operator
21:15.53SamotHe's a reseller.
21:15.54zacky83drmessano I said you I will become one
21:15.55drmessanoHe's an end user
21:15.59WIMPyIn Germany you also get paid for incomming calls if you're a provider.
21:16.17SamotFrom the other provider?
21:16.24SamotThose are Carrier PEER deals.
21:16.31WIMPyBut it you make enough volume you might even get some share as a customer.
21:16.34drmessanoSame in the US
21:16.37SamotIt worked the same with us and ATT, Verizon.
21:16.38zacky83ok that s what I wanted to knwow , you can have free incoming calls
21:16.40drmessanoCarrier to Carrier
21:16.42SamotWe're not talking CARRIER PEERS
21:16.46drmessanoBut he's NOT a carrier
21:17.09*** join/#asterisk tuxian (~tuxian@igilmour.plus.com)
21:17.17SamotUnless these E1s are with the other France carriers and this is a talk about INTERCONNECTs
21:17.34zacky83drmessano I am not a carrier but will be a telecom operator
21:17.43Samot....
21:17.49drmessanoYou won't be peering with anyone
21:17.55drmessanoYou will an end user
21:18.06drmessanoWell, or a reseller
21:18.13drmessanoif you're charging users
21:18.20drmessanoAt best, you're a reseller
21:18.47WIMPySurely good enough.
21:19.07SamotThere's nothing wrong with being that.
21:19.14SamotHe isn't realizing that's what he is..
21:19.23drmessanoFor what he needs it is, but arguing about getting paid to terminate calls is nothing he can participate in as a reseller
21:19.37zacky83WIMPY said a provider can be paid for incoming calls , is there a difference between provider and telecom operator ?
21:19.40WIMPyWhy not?
21:20.05SamotWIMPy: I have no say in my Carrier getting paid or having to pay other Carriers.
21:20.26SamotI don't impact x-connect deals.
21:20.42SamotI also don't benefit from getting paid for that inbound usage.
21:20.49SamotWhile not be charged for it.
21:21.03SamotThat's a whole different level.
21:21.28drmessanoSo in the EU I can buy an E1 from Orange, or whoever telecom, buy a block of DIDs, and get a check every month for all the calls that terminate to my PBX?  Thats awesome
21:22.33WIMPyAs a reseller that should work. Depending on you volumes and so on, off course.
21:22.50SamotThen who is paying for the calls?
21:22.58SamotSo you call me..
21:23.05SamotMy carrier and I get paid for your call?
21:23.09verticeloyes, even as a reseller, you get a revenue share from the carrier for the incoming traffic you generate.. since you can take your business to any other carrier the carriers are interested in getting a split of the termination fee
21:23.09WIMPyThe caller. Who else?
21:23.23SamotNo, the caller pays THEIR provider.
21:23.37SamotHow does that money get from the caller to the Carrier ACCEPTING the call?
21:23.40WIMPyAnd their provider pays your provider.
21:23.44zacky83thank you for the info WIMPY and verticelo
21:23.48SamotSo why would the provider pay me?
21:23.52verticelothe caller's carrier pays the carrier that terminates it
21:23.56SamotAs the endpoint of the incoming call?
21:24.07SamotI know how Carrier to Carrier peering works.
21:24.15verticelobecause you do a rev share with them
21:24.16WIMPyverticelo just explained that.
21:24.17SamotI'm trying to understand...
21:24.24SamotOK so that's optional...
21:24.40SamotI don't have to rev share with that person..
21:24.57WIMPyIt depends on your contract, sure.
21:24.57verticelois anyone here in this channel running a telco business in europe and have access to DIDs?
21:25.03SamotK.
21:25.11SamotSo it's not for any Joe Bloe that gets an E1
21:25.24SamotLike for their hardware store..
21:25.34drmessanoor app
21:25.35SamotThe carrier is not paying their end users for their incoming calls..
21:25.40WIMPyNumers are usually managed by authorities, not telcos.
21:25.49SamotAS it is here.
21:26.06SamotThe authority assigns those numbers to the OCN/SPID of the carrier..
21:26.16SamotEveryone uses that routing database(s)
21:26.41WIMPyNe, here they are assigned to the customer, not the telco.
21:26.54verticelowimpy, which country are you located in?
21:26.56SamotBut then the customer has to do all the foot work.
21:27.02drmessanoSo no fees on international calls either?
21:27.03WIMPyde
21:27.36WIMPyWhat track are you on?
21:28.23Samotdrmessano I think we need to move to the EU.
21:29.06verticelo@Samot: I suppose you just need to get better deals from your carrier..
21:29.22SamotI'm actually very happy with the deals I have.
21:29.22zacky83samot you see europe is very different
21:29.34SamotThe concepts of Telephony are not.
21:29.39drmessanozacky83: Its still not free
21:29.44SamotThe concepts of providing a utility service are not.
21:29.49SamotThey may vary slightly...
21:29.54zacky83drmessano , I can be paid for incoming calls now
21:29.59drmessano......
21:30.05SamotYou realize that else you have to do right?
21:30.13SamotBased on the other EU people in here.
21:30.13drmessanoWell that should offset the $3000 a month then
21:30.21drmessanoSo go for it
21:30.21SamotYou need to be connected to the Emergency Network..
21:30.37drmessanoShh.. he's going to be paid for calls
21:30.38SamotWhich from what ConSi said, isn't cheap
21:30.48SamotWhat about the OUTBOUND?
21:30.49drmessanoThis thing is already paying for itself
21:31.23SamotI get rev share with resellers who are bringing traffic in...
21:31.31SamotWhich means it's bringing in revenue..
21:31.44verticelofor outbound you pay, usually more than you get in rev share
21:31.45SamotBut what about when the traffic out is costing money?
21:31.50verticeloyes, of cours
21:31.52verticeloe
21:32.14Samotzacky83 still hasn't provided any answer on that.
21:32.18zacky83verticelo , what condition must you have to be paid for incoming calls in sweden ?
21:32.25SamotBut has said that the core use of voice on his app is OUTBOUND.
21:32.33SamotAnd that no one will really make inbound calls.
21:32.38drmessanoverticelo: So 1000 concurrent calls, with say 50% of those being inbound, wouldn't offset itself and generate $3000 a month from the revenue share?
21:33.00zacky83samot I said exactly the opposite . an extra number to be called
21:34.06SamotHow much did this app cost roughly?
21:34.09verticelobasically you receive $0.001 per minute for inbound calls and pay $0,002 per minute for outbound calls
21:34.17drmessanozacky83: ^^^
21:34.28verticeloas an example
21:34.37verticeloit depends on geography etc.. but basically that's it
21:34.38zacky83thanks verticelo
21:34.39drmessanoThats your "being paid"
21:34.45SamotHow much did this app cost roughly?
21:34.53drmessanoSo you're still not making a profit from terminating calls
21:34.55zacky83samot : it is free
21:35.00SamotHow is it free?
21:35.06SamotHow much did it cost YOU
21:35.10drmessanoYou're still paying for outbound
21:35.19drmessanoSo lets do the math
21:35.24SamotWait.
21:35.27zacky83outbound is exceptional
21:35.30SamotI want this number for the math.
21:35.36verticelodrmessano: of course, yes.. suppose you run a conferencing service where you do not have outbound then you "only" have revenue in
21:35.36zacky83extra number to be reached
21:35.45SamotHow much did it cost YOU to develop this app of yours?
21:35.59zacky83verticelo that's it
21:36.12zacky83samot I develop by myself
21:36.16SamotOK
21:36.22SamotSo what is your hourly rate?
21:36.30SamotAnd how many hours did you spend on it?
21:36.35zacky83a lot
21:36.46SamotHow do you plan on recouping that cost?
21:36.47verticelomay I ask which app we are talking about? website?
21:37.08SamotHe has some text/message/voice app he created that will be better than Whatsapp.
21:37.10SamotAccording to him.
21:37.15zacky83verticelo , I am building a mobile app to make messaging and voice with extra number
21:37.16drmessanoverticelo: Right.. So a 50/50 split of inbound/outbound would basically be offset by .001
21:37.18SamotBecause they don't know "the trick"
21:37.39Samotzacky83: The time you spend developing that app is a COST
21:37.48verticelozacky83: that is the business I'm in, already running such an app
21:37.49SamotWhich means you should/want to recoup that cost.
21:38.02drmessanoSo basically
21:38.05drmessanoDoing the math
21:38.07SamotSo you're entering this in the red already.
21:38.09zacky83verticelo ? really ?
21:38.09drmessano1000 concurrent calls
21:38.18drmessano50/50 inbound/outbound
21:38.21drmessanoat .001
21:38.29drmessano42000 x .001 x 1000 = 42000
21:39.13verticeloyes, we do extra numbers, inbound/outbound/SMS/MMS, international calls, transfering of number between users, international numbers etc
21:39.14zacky83drmessano , as you told it at start , user will buy credits only for outgoing calls
21:39.21verticelothere are tons of apps like that out there
21:39.36drmessanozacky83: But you said all this stuff about free calls
21:39.46SamotYes, you did.
21:39.52drmessanoOnly some calls would be charged
21:39.54drmessanoAd revenue
21:40.10Samotverticelo: That's been our point.
21:40.35SamotNot to mention a lot of EU carriers bringing in Wifi Calling.
21:40.47drmessanoSo while an E1 is cheaper than I expected, you're still gonna pay some for calls.. they're not free
21:40.55drmessanoand that cost.. is YUGE
21:41.00Samot$0.002 per minute.
21:41.04drmessanoWell
21:41.11drmessanoSorta
21:41.17drmessanoI split the calls 50/50
21:41.29SamotWelll that's the per minute cost.
21:41.41drmessanoIf you recieve .001 per inbound
21:41.46drmessanoand pay .002 for outbound
21:41.50Samot500 calls will be .001
21:41.54drmessanoI did 1000 x .001
21:41.55Samot500 calls will be .002
21:42.00SamotAhh.
21:42.18SamotAvg call 10 minutes..
21:42.25SamotSo .02 call..
21:42.28Samot500 calls...
21:42.29drmessanoI did 42000 minutes a month
21:42.35SamotYeah..
21:42.45SamotI thought you were just doing inbound math.
21:42.51drmessanoNo
21:43.00SamotI get what you did now.
21:43.06drmessanoI factored in the offset
21:43.17SamotYup.
21:44.13SamotInbound rev share and ad revenue should not be the core revenue for a startup business.
21:44.23SamotSpecially one that has so much larger competition..
21:44.48verticeloSince you are deconstructing businesses.. anyone has any idea how vectone can offer such crazy low international call prices? seems like a scam to me
21:44.50SamotMight be able to talk the ad people into a decent first buy rate..
21:45.16SamotBut when the ads don't generate clicks..they'll dump out for the next buy.
21:45.25verticeloAlso, you have Pinger/Sideline offering free calls etc only ad supported?
21:45.29Samotvericelo: I have one theory.
21:45.46Samotverticelo: I have one theory.
21:46.06SamotThey have peers with other providers in those countries.
21:46.18drmessanoExtremely cheap and unreliable routes
21:46.21SamotThey avoid the PSTN directly.
21:46.31SamotIt's what we did with Gradwell.
21:46.43SamotFor their US local/toll free numbers.
21:46.56SamotAnd how we got out EU DIDs from them.
21:47.19verticeloSamot: talking about Vectone or Sideline now?
21:47.35drmessanoMagicJack principle
21:47.36SamotWell how to offer crazy low International prices..
21:47.50SamotPeer with providers over SIP in those locations.
21:47.57zacky83verticelo:  can I try your app ?
21:48.17drmessanoCan he have the source code
21:48.23verticeloNot sure I believe that is the case, since they offer it extremely cheap in many countries such as the middle east etc.. I don't think they get any discounts there
21:48.41SamotIt's a theory.
21:48.51SamotIt's what we did with the ITSP back in the day.
21:49.06drmessanoI doubt some of these guys are doing anything legit
21:49.10SamotWe sent US DIDs to Gradwell.net in the UK..
21:49.13drmessanoNot scammy, per se, but illegal
21:49.29SamotAnd we would let them send US calls to us.
21:49.32verticeloYes, but in Asia/ME the markets are regulated and there is no way they are getting discounts since there is no incentive at all for the carrier to discount the termination
21:49.37drmessanoGovernment circumvention sorta stuff
21:49.56SamotIs VoIP regulated?
21:50.01verticeloyes
21:50.10drmessanoLike VPN tunneled SIP peers to Vietnam
21:50.11SamotWe got around that with an India provider.
21:50.18SamotUsed non standard ports.
21:50.19verticeloyou are talking about simboxing now?
21:50.20drmessanoWhere you get your hands chopped off
21:50.34verticelozacky83: www.addaline.com
21:50.58drmessanoUsed to see a lot of guys in here doing that sort of stuff
21:50.59SamotWe just sent the call to whatever IP and port they asked. Sometimes it was port 80.
21:51.26SamotBut in that case..
21:51.30drmessanoGet a buttload of Analog lines, drop them into an Asterisk box peered to something outside the country over VPN
21:51.43drmessanoBoom, Banana Telco
21:51.45SamotThey were just resellers. We weren't using them for anything.
21:52.05zacky83verticelo thank you
21:52.34zacky83verticelo not available in France right now :(
21:52.35SamotHowever, neither Gradwell or us really offered "crazy low" rates.
21:52.47SamotWe offered rates slightly below market standard.
21:52.49verticelozacky83: we are releasing france in a couple of weeks, 50 more countries as well
21:52.55drmessanoHow long has CarrierXchange been gone?
21:52.56SamotROFL
21:53.05SamotThey're launching in your market.
21:53.22zacky83verticelo , do you know ONOFF app (a french company)?
21:53.28SamotSo you're technically talking to a competitor.
21:54.02drmessanoverticelo: Thanks for all the input on the pricing, BTW
21:54.02Samotdrmessano: Remember that train you were saying was going to hit?
21:54.10SamotYeah, that was helpful.
21:54.11drmessanoI didnt expect the E1 would be $100
21:54.29SamotWell my pricing was based on 3 years ago.
21:54.32drmessanoBut the per minute doesnt surprise me
21:54.43SamotWhen $100 was low.
21:54.53verticelozacky83: no, never heard of them before
21:55.05drmessanoverticelo: I think you're his competition before he even gets started
21:55.14Samot^ That
21:55.29verticeloas i mentioned earlier.. there are tons of apps like this out there, I believe everyone has to find their nische vertical
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21:55.30SamotYou're basically launching an app that does what he wants.
21:55.36zacky83verticelo it is a startup that raised a lot of money and are launching everywhere in europe
21:55.58SamotBut they're successful because they raised a lot of funding.
21:55.58drmessanoExcept verticelo has already launched
21:56.01zacky83samot , my app is not only doing telephony
21:56.08drmessano......
21:56.11SamotNeither is his..
21:56.22SamotHe asked what your app did, you told him..
21:56.28SamotHe said "We have one like that"
21:56.31SamotYou said "Can I see it?"
21:56.34drmessanoNo, it makes CALLS AND IT SENDS MESSAGES
21:56.40drmessanoWhich is like
21:56.43drmessano*Mind Blown*
21:56.45SamotAnd he gave you a link and said "We're launching in France"
21:56.46drmessanolol
21:57.13zacky83samot and messano you like to see negative things
21:57.23verticelozacky83: they seem to be more expensive that us if you actually use the service a fair bit.. we are targeting SMBs that might put 1-2 hours / day with calls
21:57.24SamotNope.
21:57.25drmessanoReality
21:57.35drmessanoI see Reality
21:57.45Samotverticelo sounds like he's is pretty good..
21:57.54drmessanoFirst and foremost I am an end user
21:57.57SamotHe already has expectations and a market in mind.
21:58.02zacky83verticelo , they take 2.99 € per number and ask for credit for outbound calls
21:58.04drmessanoBecause I love product
21:58.22SamotHe says in Adult Bookstores.
21:58.32drmessanolol
21:58.55Samot"BOYS I'M HEEERREEEE! I LOVE PRODUCT" (with air quotes around "product")
21:58.56drmessanoIm not some corporate shill that focuses on numbers
21:59.10drmessanoSo when I say the concept is flawed
21:59.17drmessanoor confusing
21:59.23drmessanoor "I can already do that with ...."
21:59.31drmessanoIts because it is, and I can
21:59.50SamotYup.
21:59.58SamotWhich then makes the numbers important.
22:00.25SamotBecause if there is already a strong market and it's hard to get into...why bother when all those exist..
22:00.26verticelozacky83: Onoff charges USD 57.61 for 600 minutes of calls to the UK, we charge USD 21.2.. so for anyone that actually uses the number I think we have a fair price.. if you use it very rarely they win
22:00.59drmessanoSweet
22:01.03zacky83verticelo yes I think they are too expensive
22:01.07verticeloassuming price is an important differentiator.. it might not be
22:01.25drmessanoverticelo: Does your app send Glitter Cat GIFs?
22:01.31igcewieling1migrane
22:01.49igcewieling1fixes focus
22:02.07SamotI think this conversation is better read out of focus.
22:02.21drmessanoFrom bottom to top, actually
22:02.23verticelodrmessano: not yet ;) waiting for our businesses customers to request it before we implement it...
22:02.53drmessanoverticelo: I'm not a marketing guy, but I honestly think Glitter Cats could be the difference between success and failure
22:03.38verticelodrmessano: could be, could be.. but we feel at this time we might bet on flying cat gifs instead
22:04.29drmessanoWhoa.. Im just looking at your site
22:04.54drmessanohttps://www.addaline.com/personal
22:04.58drmessanoThat's hardcore
22:07.09SamotThat's pretty decent.
22:07.12SamotNice.
22:07.22verticeloThanks
22:07.54SamotSo your app does all the stuff his app does basically plus gives multiple lines..
22:07.57SamotHrm..
22:08.15drmessano$5 a month for a burner phone and someone to yell at if it breaks
22:09.25SamotYou doing the signaling over TCP?
22:09.31verticeloTLS
22:09.49SamotTCP and encryption..
22:09.59verticeloYes
22:10.05drmessanoDamn
22:10.07SamotSo it handles well in "rest mode"?
22:10.24verticelono, we register for every call
22:10.42SamotI meant for inbound.
22:10.44verticelouse different methods to wake up the phone (depends on platform) on inbound calls to have the phone register
22:10.51SamotOK.
22:10.55verticelootherwise it would drain to much battery
22:11.02drmessanoyeah
22:11.18verticelobut we also hunt the phone.. so if SIP doesn't get going within X seconds we call the SIM number instead
22:11.31drmessanoTLS is a HUGE improvement over UDP on mobile, but its hard running a softphone 24/7 on IOS
22:11.41drmessanoAH
22:11.51drmessanoLiterally the same as he wanted to do
22:12.08SamotWell you can't post pictures with this one.
22:12.17drmessanoYeah no glitter cats
22:12.33verticeloyes, we do support pictures via MMS or SMS with links, you can also record videos and audio messages?
22:12.40SamotWell thats different.
22:12.53verticelowe just don't have any template cat gifs already available.. you have to find them yourself..
22:12.59drmessanolol
22:13.01SamotYou're selling this as a new social media option.
22:13.10Samot+not
22:13.24SamotIt's a voice app.
22:14.17drmessanoverticelo: How frustratingly hard is it to get the bits in place to transport images from carrier to carrier from MMS?
22:15.09drmessanoBecause IIRC, something in the interconnect is the reason a lot of "apps" send links and host the images
22:15.39verticelosomewhat difficult.. to begin with large carriers usually operate via direct connections/vpn with static IPs and firewalls etc.. so you have to have a static environoment and take that into account (spinning up/down VPSes won't work with changing IPs), then you need to run a MMS software. MMS protocol by itself is pretty straight forward, it is bas
22:15.40verticeloically SMTP.
22:16.11drmessanoAhh
22:16.19verticeloit's cheaper to send the link via SMS.. MMS is basically charged 10x to SMS
22:18.06drmessanoWhen you say its "basically SMTP", is it specifically SMTP and is it related in any way to the carriers end-user accessible SMTP gateways for SMS/MMS?
22:18.55verticeloit depends on the standard, there are multiple different standard.. but the underlying carrier is SMTP and then there are some modifications to it
22:19.04verticelonot sure how it relates to the carriers end-user GWs
22:20.21drmessanoOk.. Just didnt know if maybe they were all the same boxes and carriers shot MMS's back and forth on a non-public network segment to those same boxes
22:20.42drmessanoWe've relied heavily on those for years
22:22.53verticelodrmessano: which company are you with?
22:23.23drmessanoI'm work in the private sector, Broadcast Engineering
22:24.33drmessanoI'm just a phone fanatic that sells and supports on the side
22:24.34verticeloaha, you do MMS?
22:25.51verticelotelephony is fun.. i like the interplay with software/hardware and sound and communication.. lot's of stuff going on and fun to play around with.. feels like you accomplish something
22:25.58drmessanoActually, what I was referring to above in usage has been for government.  I volunteered for many years with Emergency Management and we did a lot of email <> SMS and email <> MMS
22:26.08verticelowas in the security analysis business for a long time and reviewing log files just wasn't as fun..
22:26.32drmessanoA lot of paging and alerting applications only speak SMTP
22:26.40drmessanoSo email gateways for SMS and MMS are awesome
22:26.57verticeloaha, interesting
22:27.33drmessanoNowadays I do all my alerting with Pushover.  Been quite happy with the result
22:27.57verticelozacky83: regarding your business.. all I can say is that the market is young, there is plenty of room if you have the marketing budget and a clear customer segment in mind.. right now the biggest hurdle is that people don't even know they can get a number from a company besides the large tier1 carriers
22:28.01*** join/#asterisk matrix1233 (~matrix123@197.0.65.132)
22:28.40verticelodrmessano: ever feel worried that the push won't arrive etc and you miss the alert?
22:29.38zacky83verticelo , I can rely on a huge basis of users . I think I can make it be a success
22:30.06verticelowe have our own alerting system that chases us, pings us via different notifications but also places a phone call to us if we don't act quickly enough
22:30.45drmessanoverticelo: Not at all.. Pushover has been 100%.   I'm actually LONG overdue to stop sending alerts to my inbox and Pushover.  (I have been using my mailbox as a quality control/backup).
22:32.01verticelok, we send quite a few pushes every day and we see the APNS gateways having issues at times
22:32.03drmessanoI consistently, and without fail get my Pushover notification then 3 or 4 seconds later my IOS Priority inbox notification from my email
22:32.23drmessanoThe ONLY gripe i have with Pushover
22:32.31drmessanoand give or take what you will
22:32.45drmessanoIt has some HTML features, but not tables
22:33.20drmessanoand I have a particular piece of equipment that uses tables in the notifications
22:36.33drmessanoThey are adding a lot of neat stuff to Pushover as well
22:37.15drmessanoI'm a beta tester, and occasionally they add stuff, realize it's not baked yet, and put it back in later.. but they're always releasing new features.
22:38.26drmessanoMy favorite recent addition.. You can set Priorities on Notifications.. The highest Priority requires acknowledgement or it will repeat
22:38.37verticelohappy to hear it works well for you! leaving email behind is very nice.. it's less stress also, felt like my inbox did way too much for a while, nice to have different stuff in different "channels"
22:38.40drmessanoThey added synced acknowledgements across devices
22:39.20drmessanoSo I can silence it on my iPad and not have to hunt for my phone, or vice versa.. But I like having 2 or 3 devices yelling at me across the house
22:39.38verticelohehe :)
22:39.41drmessanoI keep my previous iPhone around as a static pager
22:39.54verticeloso.. regarding Asterisk, anyone here doing ARI stuff?
22:39.58drmessanoSits on Wifi, runs Pushover and BRIA (in case I want to make calls)
22:47.14verticeloDoes anyone have a pointer how to check if an originating channel has not received a 180 or 183 within 7 seconds from the origination attempt and if so hang up the channel using ARI?
23:38.53igcewieling1verticelo: I strongly doubt it.
23:39.22igcewieling1you could put a SIP proxy in front of Asterisk is you need those sorts of things.
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