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02:00.24 | qloogkm[m] | to turn on video mid-call, does that require a sip reinvite? |
02:10.08 | [TK]D-Fender | Of course |
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02:38.41 | Samot | Anything that deals with the media requires a Re-INVITE to update the SDP. |
02:38.46 | Samot | Event hold. |
02:38.51 | Samot | Even hold. |
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04:41.56 | scriptinghelp | hi i have setup a queue and it works properly, only that when a member hangs up a call from the queue, CDR's "userfield" is not populated in the cdr |
04:42.13 | scriptinghelp | there are 2 entries, 1 for the IVR/moh , "userfield" IS populated |
04:42.24 | scriptinghelp | for the users billsec it is not populated |
04:42.28 | scriptinghelp | (userfield) |
04:42.41 | scriptinghelp | can someone please advise me on how to populate the userfield in both? |
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05:16.31 | Samot | userfield is for DTMF digits that are entered by the user.. |
05:16.41 | Samot | Generally.. |
05:17.07 | Samot | Not all fields are populated in a CDR entry depending on what the entry is for. |
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07:10.24 | igcewieling1 | userfield is a custom field used before _adaptive existed |
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16:05.46 | tompaw | In debug log, what does the number after ; mean? For instance: Local/blablabla@context-00000066;1 |
16:08.04 | Samot | This "00000066"? |
16:08.14 | tompaw | no, the ";1" |
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16:22.52 | zacky83 | Hi everybody , is it possible in asterisk to configure dynamically thousands of sip accounts ? |
16:27.02 | Samot | tompaw: That's only for Local channels I believe. It has two "legs". |
16:27.20 | Samot | So same channel ID but ;1 is leg "1" |
16:30.50 | tompaw | thanks I thought so |
16:31.09 | tompaw | how is it possible that one leg hangs up, while the other does not? |
16:31.58 | Samot | Well local channels have an outbound and an inbound leg. |
16:32.53 | Samot | [2016-12-17 17:42:50] VERBOSE[6253] dial.c: Local/1NXXNXXXXXX@outbound-001860d7;1 is making progress |
16:32.53 | Samot | [2016-12-17 17:43:07] VERBOSE[6254][C-002fe458] app_dial.c: SIP/flowroute-0018fbf1 answered Local/1NXXNXXXXXX@outbound-001860d7;2 |
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16:33.25 | Samot | Once it's answered, leg 1 is gone. The channel is inbound only now on leg 2 |
16:34.22 | tompaw | OK, so now when I hang up this channel using ARI, only leg 1 in terminated |
16:34.34 | Samot | zacky83: What do you mean "configure dynamically"? |
16:34.48 | tompaw | leg 2 remains alive, but only if I used a pre-dial handler on it. even if it's trivial, like NoOp + Return |
16:35.02 | tompaw | what could be causing this behavior? |
16:35.58 | Samot | tompaw: Show a debug of this. |
16:36.11 | tompaw | ok, one sec |
16:38.06 | Samot | zacky83: Asterisk can handle thousands of SIP accounts. How you set them up is up to you. |
16:38.26 | zacky83 | Samot: I mean being able to add on the fly multiple accounts for asterisk from command line or from java for example |
16:38.44 | Samot | zacky83: That's up to you. |
16:39.00 | tompaw | Samot: https://hastebin.com/hajoqidozu.swift |
16:39.10 | Samot | People have deployed different methods for automatic setups in Asterisk. |
16:39.59 | tompaw | Samot: long story short, my .hangup() only seems to affect ;1 and ;2 turns into a zombie |
16:40.20 | tompaw | But only if there is a Dial(,,b( )) inside the Local dialplan. If I don't use b( ), it works perfectly fine. |
16:40.51 | tompaw | Samot: should I try using /n with my Local channel? |
16:41.05 | Samot | That's generally recommended. |
16:41.40 | zacky83 | Samot : but how can I set them from a program and not by hand? |
16:42.03 | tompaw | Samot: can /n affect hanging up tho? I thought it was only for transfers. |
16:42.06 | Samot | zacky83: That is up to you. People use PHP, Python, etc.. |
16:42.31 | tompaw | zacky83: use a realtime configuration and read your sip accounts from an sql database |
16:42.34 | zacky83 | Samot: how to do it in PHP for example ? |
16:43.13 | tompaw | Samot: did you have a chance to look at the pastebin? |
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16:44.17 | zacky83 | tompaw: how to use a realtime configuration ? can I do it without a sql database ? |
16:44.24 | Samot | zacky83: There are different methods, it's going to be dependant on how _you_ want to do it and how it meets _your_ needs and requirements. |
16:44.55 | tompaw | zacky83: this means your sip configuration (including endpoints / accounts) will be dynamically stored in a database rather than a file |
16:44.59 | zacky83 | Samot: do you know where I can find information to do it in PHP ? |
16:45.07 | Samot | Google. |
16:45.19 | tompaw | you can then add/remove accounts by simply adding/removing rows from appropriate tables |
16:46.09 | Samot | zacky83: At the end of the day, you need to know what you want to do and how to take what you find on Google and make it fit what you need. |
16:46.21 | Samot | So Step 1: Have a plan. |
16:46.29 | zacky83 | samot I already searched for it |
16:46.32 | Samot | Well Step 1: Have the idea. |
16:46.35 | Samot | Step 2: Make a plan. |
16:47.57 | Samot | zacky83: I have a method in which I do this but I doubt it will fit anything *you* need. It's design specifically for my overall requirements and needs. |
16:48.14 | zacky83 | samot tell me more aboput it |
16:48.23 | tompaw | PLAN: 1. Hang up leg ;2 of Local channels w/b( ) handlers using ARI |
16:48.26 | tompaw | Who likes my plan? |
16:48.43 | Samot | tompaw: I haven't mess with ARI at all, so...sounds good? |
16:50.28 | Samot | zacky83: It uses my client backend system to provision and store the needed/wanted information in the various places they need to be. It uses API calls to send that information to the proper systems that run custom scripts to insert the information and update the need .confs or database tables.. |
16:53.18 | Samot | zacky83: Again, my way is designed for my business and tech needs/requirements and does a whole lot of things that wouldn't apply to you. |
16:53.44 | zacky83 | samot , can I add and remove sip accounts from java ? |
16:53.51 | Samot | Sure. |
16:54.11 | Samot | I don't use JAVA but I'm sure there are methods from those that have/do. |
16:55.03 | Samot | I bet someone has even done it in LUA. |
16:55.13 | tompaw | did it in lua @ freeswitch |
16:55.19 | Samot | See. |
16:55.32 | ConSi | zacky83: you can add entries to sql database from java application :> |
16:55.36 | Samot | Well that's FreeSwitch, things are done a little differently. |
16:56.02 | zacky83 | Consi, I don't want to work with sql database . can I add sip account from CLI command line ? |
16:56.17 | Samot | ConSi: We can offer things until the cows come home. He's grabbing at straws right now. He needs a plan. |
16:56.37 | Samot | zacky83: You either use RealTime or the .conf giles. |
16:56.41 | Samot | zacky83: You either use RealTime or the .conf files |
16:57.06 | Samot | So you would have to edit sip.conf (or pjsip confs) each time you update/add/remove a user/device. |
16:57.12 | zacky83 | samot , is there a way to use realtime without SQL database? |
16:57.17 | Samot | No. |
16:57.46 | Samot | Well, I think you can use other DBs. |
16:57.55 | tompaw | Why don't you ASM your CPU registers to add the account there? |
16:57.55 | zacky83 | ok thank you I think I will make a huge sip.conf file with 10 000 accounts |
16:57.59 | Samot | Since RealTime uses ODBC. |
16:58.13 | Samot | zacky83: Don't be snarky. |
16:58.28 | Samot | There are two ways you can do it. |
16:58.41 | Samot | You don't want to use a SQL DB, then you use .confs. |
16:58.55 | Samot | You don't want a .conf with 10,000 accounts, use RealTime. |
16:59.15 | zacky83 | samot I am afraid that with 10 000 accounts in a sip.conf file , asterisk will be very slow |
16:59.21 | Samot | Again, until you have an actual plan...this is pointless. |
16:59.37 | Samot | Why would you host 10K on one box? |
17:00.13 | zacky83 | samot , because I am being creating an application for mobile for people to get an extra number |
17:00.27 | Samot | That's not a valid reason. |
17:01.04 | zacky83 | all people downloading my app will need a different accounts |
17:01.09 | Samot | So? |
17:01.13 | zacky83 | 1 per person |
17:01.17 | Samot | People using my service need different accounts. |
17:01.30 | zacky83 | I bet I will have over 100 000 downloads |
17:01.38 | Samot | That has nothing to do with it. |
17:01.50 | zacky83 | so in sip password for everybody |
17:02.00 | zacky83 | one SIP password* |
17:02.08 | Samot | Running a VoIP service on one Asterisk box is just wrong. |
17:02.16 | zacky83 | samot why ? |
17:02.37 | Samot | Because there's more to providing a service than just having an Asterisk box. |
17:03.04 | zacky83 | I just offer them telephone call feature |
17:03.19 | Samot | That is "providing a service" |
17:03.39 | Samot | They expect to be able to make and receive calls... |
17:03.42 | Samot | And shit to work. |
17:03.52 | Samot | Just have an Asterisk box does not cover it. |
17:03.56 | zacky83 | what is the problem with asterisk then ? |
17:04.01 | Samot | Nothing. |
17:04.07 | Samot | My entire voice network runs on Asterisk. |
17:04.08 | zacky83 | I already can do that with asterisk |
17:04.33 | Samot | But not Asterisk alone. |
17:05.19 | zacky83 | I manage all from java |
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17:06.04 | Samot | http://i.imgur.com/uMeSccM.gif |
17:07.15 | zacky83 | Samot , can asterisk handle let s say 100 000 accounts and 1000 simultaenous call on a powerful server ? |
17:07.30 | Samot | I would say "maybe" |
17:07.42 | Samot | I would never do that. |
17:07.49 | tompaw | Well, /n doesn't help |
17:07.53 | Samot | Nor would any sane Telecom person. |
17:08.00 | zacky83 | Samot why ? |
17:08.31 | Samot | Because that just would be a poor way of doing it. |
17:08.43 | zacky83 | what would be a smarter way ? |
17:09.02 | Samot | I would have that spread over multiple servers... |
17:09.12 | Samot | I would have something like Kamailio involved.. |
17:09.33 | Samot | And depending on their actual service, might not even have them registering to Asterisk at all. |
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17:10.08 | Samot | Actually, how I do it now. |
17:10.41 | Samot | Unless they are using actual PBX features, Asterisk is just a media server for them. |
17:11.50 | zacky83 | for me asterisk is the software to have to be able to deal with SIP and calls , Kamailio is far better for you ? |
17:12.19 | Samot | Kamailio is a SIP Registrar/Router. |
17:13.05 | Samot | Asterisk is a Telephony Engine that has PBX functionality. |
17:13.50 | Samot | Kamailio doesn't do media, Asterisk does. Together they are very powerful. |
17:13.56 | zacky83 | so to place call and receive calls I need asterisk and not Kamailio ? |
17:14.21 | Samot | It all depends on what you are doing. |
17:14.27 | Samot | You could use Kamailio.. |
17:14.49 | Samot | And let the media be handled by the provider and the end user's device. |
17:15.01 | Samot | But you wouldn't haven't PBX features.. |
17:15.18 | Samot | Or a Voicemail system |
17:15.23 | zacky83 | what do you call the media ? I only deal with telephony |
17:15.39 | Samot | Media as in audio |
17:15.48 | Samot | Or video, since this is SIP. |
17:17.26 | zacky83 | I intend to become a telecom operator to be able to get 10 000 numbers by block for mobile . I also intend to host the asterisk server with ISDN PCI cards inside a datacenter |
17:17.50 | Samot | ISDN? |
17:18.00 | zacky83 | digital PCI cards |
17:18.00 | Samot | You're going to provide SIP service over ISDN? |
17:18.13 | zacky83 | samot , yes why not ? |
17:18.22 | Samot | What speed are you getting with it? |
17:18.40 | zacky83 | what speed ? of what ? |
17:18.42 | WIMPy | sip *over* isdn? |
17:19.00 | Samot | Of the ISDN connections? |
17:19.19 | Samot | Are you talking about actual 64Kbps ISDN channels?! |
17:19.20 | drmessano | Ok I have a couple questions |
17:19.26 | zacky83 | I will host the server with 1 Gbit bandwidth link |
17:19.28 | Samot | I knew you would. |
17:19.39 | Samot | How are you getting calls to the PSTN? |
17:19.43 | drmessano | You're going to get ISDN PRIs ? |
17:19.47 | Samot | or getting them? |
17:19.56 | drmessano | and offer SIP services? |
17:20.06 | drmessano | Calls come in over ISDN? |
17:20.15 | WIMPy | sees questions with rather obvious answers. |
17:20.15 | zacky83 | I will get 10 000 mobile phone numbers in becoming a telecom operator |
17:20.24 | drmessano | hang on |
17:20.36 | drmessano | I get the landline part |
17:20.45 | drmessano | How are you going to become a mobile operator |
17:20.50 | Samot | Your stock of DIDs is irrelevant. |
17:20.52 | zacky83 | I guess all those numbers will be rooted to my asterisk server |
17:20.55 | drmessano | Where does the mobile part come in? |
17:21.17 | Samot | I guess when you call "the media". |
17:22.04 | zacky83 | so anyone calling those number from a landline telephone will be routed to my asterisk server , and the user of my app will then be contacted |
17:22.06 | drmessano | PSTN <---ISDN--> Asterisk <--SIP--> ?????? <--mobile--> |
17:22.13 | drmessano | Oh |
17:22.22 | zacky83 | is there anything wrong with that ? |
17:22.25 | drmessano | Youre going to offer a SIP app for the phone |
17:22.50 | zacky83 | drmessano , better than a sip app , a whatsapp like app |
17:23.04 | drmessano | Okay, so the users will still need data service from a telco |
17:23.09 | drmessano | Still be paying for it |
17:23.18 | drmessano | and then paying you for another number? |
17:24.02 | zacky83 | in fact users depending on their status will get free number to be called , and will buy credits for outgoing calls |
17:24.13 | drmessano | Right |
17:24.19 | drmessano | Okay, so the users will still need data service from a telco |
17:24.27 | drmessano | So whats the incentive ? |
17:24.40 | zacky83 | drmessano what do you mean ? |
17:24.48 | drmessano | They're paying for a phone |
17:24.49 | zacky83 | incentinve ? |
17:24.57 | drmessano | They have a number.. and a data plan.. |
17:25.08 | drmessano | Because they need network access |
17:25.16 | zacky83 | yes |
17:25.18 | drmessano | So they then also pay more to have your service |
17:25.28 | drmessano | Why would they want to do that? |
17:25.40 | WIMPy | I think the question is why someone might want to use your service. |
17:25.47 | drmessano | ^ |
17:25.58 | Samot | Totally. |
17:26.00 | drmessano | I have a number for calls |
17:26.02 | drmessano | I have data |
17:26.06 | drmessano | Why do I need you |
17:26.32 | WIMPy | Making calls more expensive doesn't sound lie a good argument. |
17:26.47 | drmessano | It aint not sure doesn't |
17:26.58 | zacky83 | let me explain |
17:27.02 | drmessano | Please |
17:27.14 | zacky83 | what are your nationalities |
17:27.20 | drmessano | Why? |
17:27.31 | drmessano | I'm french |
17:27.49 | WIMPy | :-) |
17:27.53 | drmessano | points to his outrageous accent |
17:28.17 | drmessano | Samot is a silly english type |
17:29.16 | Samot | Kinda. |
17:29.21 | Samot | I'm Irish too. |
17:29.24 | Samot | So I hate myself. |
17:30.52 | drmessano | Are we waiting for something? |
17:30.55 | zacky83 | me |
17:31.02 | zacky83 | wait 2 minutes |
17:32.09 | drmessano | tf |
17:32.52 | drmessano | can pretty much imagine "wait 2 minutes" is how the calling on this service is going to work |
17:33.05 | drmessano | or "try again later" |
17:33.21 | zacky83 | I recieved a phone call |
17:33.27 | drmessano | On top of "What exactly am I paying for?" |
17:34.09 | zacky83 | I m back sorry |
17:34.13 | zacky83 | so the app : |
17:34.19 | zacky83 | instant messaging |
17:34.25 | zacky83 | instant live video |
17:34.44 | zacky83 | able to see everything in a browser desktop |
17:34.48 | drmessano | .... |
17:34.59 | zacky83 | for best users : a free extra number |
17:35.07 | zacky83 | free to receive calls |
17:35.23 | zacky83 | very nice look and design |
17:35.25 | drmessano | Ok, so its a Skype clone.. We get it |
17:35.40 | WIMPy | And what do you relay to the PSTN? |
17:35.50 | drmessano | Why would I want to pay for outbound calls? |
17:35.57 | drmessano | Why do I need your free incoming calls? |
17:36.05 | drmessano | But most importantly |
17:36.10 | drmessano | *Why would I want to pay for outbound calls?* |
17:36.25 | zacky83 | you will pay zero to get an extra number to sell things on "leboncoin" |
17:36.25 | *** join/#asterisk [TK]D-Fender (~joe@64.235.216.2) |
17:36.27 | drmessano | I am required to have a phone |
17:36.40 | drmessano | I am paying to have voice |
17:36.43 | drmessano | I am paying to have data |
17:36.56 | drmessano | I am going to use my precious data for these IP calls |
17:37.01 | drmessano | Which I also have to pay for |
17:37.11 | zacky83 | drmessano every users use their phone in wifi |
17:37.12 | drmessano | So why do I want to do this? |
17:37.25 | drmessano | Oh, so I have to be chained to Wifi |
17:37.30 | drmessano | Thats even worse.. ok |
17:37.35 | zacky83 | and in France you have GB for few euros |
17:37.55 | zacky83 | it works either in wifi , or in Data |
17:38.06 | drmessano | Ok |
17:38.12 | drmessano | Now it works on both |
17:38.19 | drmessano | You said every user will be using this Wifi |
17:38.27 | drmessano | Ok, whatever... then going back |
17:38.31 | drmessano | I am going to use my precious data for these IP calls |
17:38.35 | drmessano | Which I also have to pay for |
17:38.39 | zacky83 | no I meant most of the time your phone is ins wifi mode |
17:38.41 | drmessano | *Why would I want to pay for outbound calls?* |
17:39.05 | drmessano | Youre still not answering me |
17:39.26 | zacky83 | drmessano the app is not for outbound calls . it is just an option , the app is to share images and messages with your friends |
17:39.50 | drmessano | I have a phone.. I already pay to make calls. I pay for data. You want me to use my data AND pay for outbound calls. Why do I want to do that? |
17:40.01 | drmessano | Dude |
17:40.16 | Samot | There's no plan. |
17:40.19 | zacky83 | because it is a social network like whatsapp |
17:40.20 | drmessano | How are you going to pay for tens of thousands of DID's and calls |
17:40.26 | Samot | He's just grasping at cash straws. |
17:41.04 | WIMPy | Just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean people aren't going to pay for it. |
17:41.11 | zacky83 | I can pay for infrastructure to handle all the calls |
17:41.13 | drmessano | Youre going to build this telephony infrastructure.. All these Asterisk boxes, ISDN lines, DIDs... and pay for them.. |
17:41.26 | drmessano | and users MAY or MAY NOT pay for outbound calls |
17:41.30 | drmessano | So why have it at all? |
17:42.07 | zacky83 | because the key feature is that users will be able to call them outbound for free within the network |
17:42.19 | drmessano | .... |
17:42.27 | drmessano | Which doesnt require ISDN lines |
17:42.31 | zacky83 | drmessano , you ll download my app and you ll love it |
17:42.31 | drmessano | or Asterisk |
17:42.43 | Samot | I'm sure I won't. |
17:42.44 | drmessano | You still havent told me WHY |
17:42.51 | drmessano | or answered ANYTHING I asked |
17:42.51 | Samot | I have no reason to use it now. |
17:42.58 | zacky83 | ok let s take an example |
17:43.00 | Samot | Because he doesn't have them. |
17:43.06 | drmessano | Jesus christ |
17:43.31 | Samot | 12:15:29 PMÂ <zacky83>Â what do you call the media ? I only deal with telephony |
17:43.39 | zacky83 | you re outside . a friend in the app texts you he needs to talk to you |
17:43.44 | Samot | I submit Exhibit A. |
17:43.59 | Samot | Dude, there are LEADERS of this market. |
17:44.00 | drmessano | OMG is he really explaining how a texting/calling app works |
17:44.03 | drmessano | and use cases |
17:44.05 | zacky83 | he s in wifi and you re outside with a 2G connection |
17:44.07 | Samot | Why would I just Joe's App Shack over them? |
17:44.11 | drmessano | ZOMG |
17:44.14 | drmessano | Dude |
17:44.14 | zacky83 | he s calling you |
17:44.15 | drmessano | STOP |
17:44.16 | drmessano | I have Skype and WhatsApp and Facebook Messenger. |
17:44.23 | Samot | ^ That |
17:44.26 | drmessano | I know how apps work |
17:44.28 | Samot | How will you compete? |
17:44.30 | zacky83 | whatsapp doesn t allow you that |
17:44.31 | drmessano | Stop explaining it |
17:44.39 | Samot | How will you get 100K downloads? |
17:44.54 | drmessano | So basically |
17:45.01 | zacky83 | samot I have a 3M unique visitor website |
17:45.14 | drmessano | If my buddy only has 2G |
17:45.27 | Samot | I don't care. |
17:45.33 | drmessano | he can pay for a PSTN call to me, which goes to the app |
17:45.51 | drmessano | Instead of just calling me |
17:46.00 | drmessano | Because we both are REQUIRED to have PSTN anyway |
17:46.20 | drmessano | Except now I am using and abusing his data |
17:46.29 | drmessano | Precious metered data |
17:46.36 | drmessano | Instead of just.. calling him |
17:46.38 | zacky83 | drmessano this is not the case I talked about |
17:47.09 | zacky83 | you can reach people that are in 2G with your wifi , with the best quality sound |
17:47.26 | drmessano | LOL |
17:47.26 | Samot | How will you receive/send calls to the PSTN? |
17:47.32 | drmessano | Have you ever made a SIP call over 2G? |
17:47.33 | Samot | You still haven't answered that. |
17:47.36 | drmessano | Have you ever made a SIP call over 2G? |
17:47.44 | Samot | And if the answer is ISDN, then it's wrong. |
17:48.00 | drmessano | Im sure he's referring to PRI |
17:48.06 | drmessano | Thats a red herring |
17:48.07 | zacky83 | drmessano , a user of the app receiving a call in 2G , will not use data ! he will use voice |
17:48.09 | Samot | Still. |
17:48.15 | drmessano | GOD DAMNIT |
17:48.19 | Samot | What? |
17:48.24 | drmessano | zacky83: Thats EXACTLY as I detailed above |
17:48.26 | drmessano | EXACTLY |
17:48.30 | drmessano | and you told me that WASNT |
17:48.47 | drmessano | So my buddy gets to use HIS DATA to make a PSTN CALL to ME |
17:48.58 | drmessano | When we could have just.. made a PSTN CALL |
17:49.03 | drmessano | and NO DATA being used |
17:49.12 | drmessano | You have yet to tell me WHY |
17:49.18 | zacky83 | ok |
17:49.25 | zacky83 | I will tell you why |
17:49.31 | drmessano | PLEASE do |
17:49.53 | zacky83 | my friend is in 2G , he uses voice , no choice about it |
17:49.58 | drmessano | Got it |
17:50.33 | drmessano | and? |
17:50.37 | zacky83 | me , I am located in a small town with bad reception. my call is using my wifi so my friend will hear me very good |
17:51.07 | zacky83 | now we can talk flawlessly |
17:51.08 | drmessano | .... |
17:51.24 | zacky83 | if I call him on his mobile phone quality will be bad |
17:51.25 | drmessano | I can already do that with a modern phone |
17:51.28 | drmessano | Its called Wifi calling |
17:52.48 | zacky83 | to sum up things , doing something better than whatsapp for audio qulity |
17:53.15 | drmessano | Why do you think SIP will be better? You're bound to the same codecs |
17:53.16 | zacky83 | drmessano are you using whatsapp ? |
17:53.28 | drmessano | I use them all |
17:53.47 | *** join/#asterisk sh_smith (foobar@cpe-76-174-26-91.socal.res.rr.com) |
17:54.11 | zacky83 | so if one of the 2 callers can use wifi instead 2G or 2.5G quality will be better |
17:54.22 | Samot | S basically, you're going to provide better IP based calling than Whatsapp with an Asterisk server and some PRIs? |
17:54.23 | *** join/#asterisk miralin (~Thunderbi@194.8.128.48) |
17:54.29 | drmessano | Have you ever heard of Wifi calling, zacky83 ? |
17:54.36 | zacky83 | yes |
17:55.03 | drmessano | zacky83: Are you sure? Lets be sure we're talking about the same thing |
17:55.07 | zacky83 | wifi calling is better than GSM |
17:55.37 | drmessano | Its connecting to your carrier over Wifi when you don't have 4G/LTE or the signal is poor |
17:55.43 | drmessano | and its seamless |
17:56.06 | drmessano | and iPhones have had it for a couple years, some Android devices even longer |
17:56.31 | zacky83 | that s why you ll install my app , to get real quality audio in worst scenarios |
17:56.34 | drmessano | How are you going to compete ? |
17:56.44 | drmessano | zacky83: I dont need it.. I have Wifi calling |
17:56.59 | drmessano | zacky83: and why waste my data, that I pay for |
17:57.20 | drmessano | or make some call that has to go through a proxy to get to the PSTN |
17:57.36 | drmessano | Some unknown proxy that I have to pay to use |
17:57.52 | drmessano | Because you said I have to buy outbound minutes |
17:57.59 | zacky83 | drmessano , in your car , when you re in 2G when you receive a call with whatsapp , the call is missed ! |
17:58.05 | zacky83 | with my app you get it ! |
17:58.22 | drmessano | People dont call me using WhatsApp |
17:58.29 | drmessano | I have a PHONE NUMBER |
17:58.54 | zacky83 | what are you using whatsapp for ? |
17:58.56 | drmessano | and your scenario where I am at home in my village with poor LTE service |
17:59.06 | Samot | The only people that call me via an app are those from other countries. |
17:59.08 | drmessano | I can use WIFI CALLING |
17:59.37 | drmessano | I clearly do not think you understand what Wifi calling is, in the wireless telecom sense |
17:59.56 | Samot | zacky83: Remember my Step 2? "Make a plan"? |
18:00.12 | Samot | That includes how to understand the market you think you're going to crush. |
18:00.20 | Samot | Because you're not. |
18:00.20 | zacky83 | with an iphone 7 , in 2G , my phone use 2G and not wifi |
18:00.29 | zacky83 | so this is bad |
18:00.33 | Samot | You're going to bleed money and it's going to die. |
18:00.48 | drmessano | zacky83: with an iPhone 7, at home, with poor signal, my phone uses WIFI CALLING to my carrier |
18:00.50 | zacky83 | samot are you using whatsapp and if yes , why ? |
18:00.54 | drmessano | zacky83: So people just CALL ME |
18:01.00 | drmessano | zacky83: and I just CALL THEM |
18:01.06 | drmessano | Because *I* have Wifi calling |
18:01.09 | Samot | I use WhatsApp rarely and for those that are generally in a different country. |
18:01.17 | Samot | Where the PSTN call costs more than data. |
18:01.20 | zacky83 | drmessano , I have an iphone 7 and it does not use wifi |
18:01.30 | drmessano | zacky83: You need to enable it |
18:01.54 | drmessano | Most carriers support it, and the rest will soon |
18:02.14 | zacky83 | nobody knows this trick |
18:02.20 | Samot | What? |
18:02.24 | drmessano | WHAT? |
18:02.31 | drmessano | zacky83: Thats completely false |
18:02.33 | zacky83 | to place call in wifi with your phone |
18:02.39 | Samot | Totally false. |
18:02.57 | zacky83 | where can I activate that in iphone ? |
18:02.58 | drmessano | https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203032 |
18:03.09 | Samot | In fact Onvoy/Vitelity has Samsung phones that do that with their service. |
18:03.19 | drmessano | Android has it too.. on MANY handsets |
18:03.20 | Samot | Over Sprinit. |
18:03.23 | Samot | Over Sprint. |
18:03.38 | drmessano | and guess what |
18:03.46 | drmessano | I dont need to PAY to use it |
18:03.48 | drmessano | AND |
18:04.03 | Samot | zacky83: You need to do some research. You're going to find that you'll have a lot of work to do to get where you think you're going to be. |
18:04.05 | drmessano | It works WELL over a 500k connection |
18:04.39 | zacky83 | drmessano you did not tell me why you were using whatsapp |
18:04.42 | drmessano | Because I have a site that has ZERO network access.. Like not even EDGE.. But i have Wifi coupled to a 500k backhaul... and I made calls there ALL the time |
18:04.52 | drmessano | zacky83: Why does it matter? |
18:05.14 | zacky83 | because my app is not only for telephony , it is for messaging |
18:05.23 | Samot | This was amusing but now it's just got pointless. |
18:05.27 | drmessano | You and hundreds of others |
18:05.38 | drmessano | Like Skype, Facebook Messenger, WhatsAPP, |
18:05.51 | Samot | Someone thinks they have the next best answer with no real knowledge of the basic concepts. |
18:06.08 | drmessano | Best part of Wifi calling.. People just CALL ME |
18:06.11 | drmessano | No APP needed |
18:06.17 | zacky83 | you re right , other do similar things , but does this mean a new app can not work ? |
18:06.30 | drmessano | The calling premise is flawed |
18:06.34 | Samot | App is an App. |
18:06.38 | drmessano | Extremely |
18:06.46 | Samot | It's the idea of the voice network that supports it. |
18:06.51 | drmessano | Nobody will use your app for calls |
18:06.55 | Samot | Which is awful. |
18:08.05 | zacky83 | so an app that is adding more things than other known apps is not worth it for you |
18:08.18 | drmessano | Any market you think you have for <Degraded user in bad area with 2G <----> Wifi User> via your Asterisk proxy is COMPLETELY negated by Wifi calling with the carrier |
18:08.27 | Samot | If the new features are viable. |
18:08.45 | Samot | But throwing shit into an app to say "it does more" it pointless. |
18:08.51 | drmessano | Like I said |
18:08.54 | Samot | "It's also a compass" |
18:09.22 | zacky83 | I hope you 'll enjoy the design |
18:09.33 | drmessano | I got to site X.. and I have NO SERVICE from my carrier.. I get on WIFI and I can make calls. I can call my buddy Steve who has a flip phone with no Data. |
18:09.45 | drmessano | We dont need any App to complete the call you used as your example |
18:10.14 | drmessano | That ship sailed like 2-3 years ago |
18:11.08 | zacky83 | if I listen to you , snapchat which does only messaging has no chance to succeed |
18:11.12 | zacky83 | but it did |
18:11.20 | drmessano | ROFL |
18:11.48 | drmessano | Snapchat succeeded because it does instant, automagically deleting picture messaging |
18:11.55 | drmessano | So people could sext |
18:12.05 | zacky83 | my app will have an option for deleting pictures |
18:12.15 | drmessano | So youre gonna copy everyone else |
18:12.22 | drmessano | Like everyone else |
18:12.35 | drmessano | Facebook Messenger just added that |
18:12.36 | zacky83 | take the best from both worlds with a nice interface |
18:12.50 | drmessano | Nobody cares about UIs |
18:12.57 | Samot | 12:07:21 PMÂ <zacky83>Â Samot , can asterisk handle let s say 100 000 accounts and 1000 simultaenous call on a powerful server ? |
18:13.05 | drmessano | Snapchat has a fucking awful UI and people love it |
18:13.09 | Samot | ^ You have completely disqualified that statement |
18:13.29 | Samot | 1,000 sim calls on how you explained your "app" will be impossible. |
18:13.32 | *** join/#asterisk monsterco (~monsterco@toroon474aw-lp130-01-70-49-228-179.dsl.bell.ca) |
18:13.41 | zacky83 | samot , why ? |
18:13.59 | zacky83 | drmessano I find snapchat ui very very bad |
18:14.06 | drmessano | I said it is |
18:14.12 | drmessano | Snapchat has a fucking awful UI and people love it |
18:14.13 | Samot | Because that would require an ASR of 80% and on average 5 min. call you would need 4-5 calls PER SECOND to be made. |
18:14.33 | Samot | And if you're in a shitty area of the world.. |
18:14.38 | drmessano | People dont want the same shit in the new wrapper |
18:14.41 | Samot | Your ASR will be worse.. |
18:14.53 | drmessano | and the calling part is useless |
18:14.55 | Samot | Which means you would need up to 10 calls PER SECOND to be made. |
18:15.25 | zacky83 | samot , I will only restrict the call to one country at start |
18:15.32 | drmessano | Plus 1000 calls is like 35 E1s |
18:15.37 | Samot | Answer Seizure Rate |
18:15.44 | Samot | Which is how many calls connect. |
18:15.47 | Samot | Answered. |
18:15.48 | drmessano | Thats a lot of PRIs |
18:16.02 | Samot | I'm saying that 80% of your calls have to be answered at 4-5 calls PER SECOND |
18:16.24 | Samot | That means 4-5 people would have to be receiving or making at call at the same time. |
18:16.40 | Samot | That's how you figure out your sim calls. |
18:16.52 | Samot | if you're saying you're going to have 1,000 sim calls.. |
18:16.57 | drmessano | ^ You need to listen to Samot |
18:17.02 | zacky83 | I don't see the blocking part with 1000 sim calls |
18:17.07 | Samot | You'll have 5 calls setup/tearing down at any given second. |
18:17.15 | Samot | 12:07:21 PMÂ <zacky83>Â Samot , can asterisk handle let s say 100 000 accounts and 1000 simultaenous call on a powerful server ? |
18:17.21 | Samot | ^ YOUR QUOTE |
18:17.23 | zacky83 | yes |
18:17.29 | zacky83 | this is what I want |
18:17.37 | zacky83 | 1000 sim calls |
18:17.48 | zacky83 | with 35 E1 |
18:17.51 | Samot | Im explaining how many calls would have to be made PER SECOND to sustain that. |
18:18.01 | drmessano | lol |
18:18.10 | Samot | 4-5 PER SECOND |
18:18.13 | Samot | EVERY SECOND |
18:18.19 | zacky83 | 4-5 calls per second ok and §? |
18:18.20 | drmessano | zacky83: Do you know what an E1 is? |
18:18.37 | zacky83 | yes messano |
18:18.42 | drmessano | WHat is it? |
18:18.49 | zacky83 | it can handle around 32 sim calls |
18:19.11 | drmessano | ROFL |
18:19.13 | drmessano | Nice google |
18:19.27 | zacky83 | I bought a 4 x E1 pci card |
18:19.40 | zacky83 | for tests |
18:19.54 | drmessano | So you just need 34 more and boxes to host them |
18:20.01 | zacky83 | samot what is the problem with 4-5 call per second ? |
18:20.04 | WIMPy | Is google that wrong? |
18:20.25 | WIMPy | There is also the option for channelized E3s. |
18:20.26 | zacky83 | messano , no , my card has 4 x E1 |
18:20.26 | Samot | Because that's how many calls will be setup/tore down per second. |
18:20.42 | Samot | The most resource intense part of the call. |
18:21.08 | Samot | On top of that |
18:21.12 | Samot | That's A LOT OF CALLS |
18:21.16 | zacky83 | samot, isn't a powerful server able to deal with 4-5 call per second ? |
18:21.17 | drmessano | WIMPy: First google search says 32 slots in the preview.. But we know it's 31 calls plus the D channel. But you need to click the link to see that. So 32 is the obvious "I just googled" answer |
18:21.40 | [TK]D-Fender | zacky83> samot what is the problem with 4-5 call per second ? <- obviously Asterisk doesn't handle the load that well. That is not what * is strong as. You want basic call setup? that's what efficient proxies & gateways are for. |
18:21.48 | *** join/#asterisk OnTheLake (cfa18e0f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.207.161.142.15) |
18:21.52 | [TK]D-Fender | It does not SCALE that well going upwards |
18:21.57 | WIMPy | drmessano: Wrong again. |
18:22.04 | [TK]D-Fender | So the idea of running everything off one box is crazy |
18:22.08 | drmessano | WIMPy: How so? |
18:22.33 | WIMPy | You only have 30 B-channels. |
18:22.39 | zacky83 | with 4 boxes then ? |
18:22.44 | zacky83 | <[TK]D-Fender |
18:22.50 | *** part/#asterisk monsterco (~monsterco@toroon474aw-lp130-01-70-49-228-179.dsl.bell.ca) |
18:23.09 | Samot | Stop. |
18:23.14 | drmessano | WIMPy: Ok, so it's 30 + 1. Which makes 32 more obviously wrong |
18:23.16 | Samot | No one is building this for you. |
18:23.25 | Samot | Go learn and do research. |
18:23.52 | WIMPy | there are 32 time slots. That part is correct. |
18:24.03 | drmessano | Youre not even getting my point |
18:24.09 | drmessano | If you google E1 |
18:24.18 | drmessano | The top hit says "32 slots" |
18:24.22 | drmessano | He answered 32 |
18:24.33 | drmessano | Which means "I just did a quick Google" |
18:24.58 | zacky83 | messano I bought a 4xE1 weeks ago so I know for the 32 slots |
18:25.06 | drmessano | Its not 32 |
18:25.10 | zacky83 | 31 |
18:25.28 | drmessano | As WIMPy said it's 30 B channels |
18:26.08 | Samot | 0 and 16 are "un-usable" |
18:26.22 | Samot | I recall this with the India provider. |
18:26.22 | zacky83 | there are 8xE1 PCI cards , this mean 240 sim calls . are you telling asterisk can not handle that ? |
18:26.34 | Samot | On no, it can handle that. |
18:26.34 | [TK]D-Fender | 30B asuming no shared B chan.... bu let's not get dangerous here... |
18:26.56 | [TK]D-Fender | zacky83> there are 8xE1 PCI cards , this mean 240 sim calls . are you telling asterisk can not handle that ? <- you're asking for 1000 |
18:27.07 | [TK]D-Fender | Don't go screwing with the numbers for what we advise |
18:27.12 | Samot | Yes, Asterisk can handle 1,000. |
18:27.20 | Samot | I have Asterisk boxes doing 1,800 |
18:27.20 | [TK]D-Fender | 10000 |
18:27.22 | [TK]D-Fender | missed a 0 |
18:27.24 | *** join/#asterisk pvoigt (~Linux@unaffiliated/pvoigt) |
18:27.30 | Samot | Sim calls. |
18:27.35 | zacky83 | samot 1800 sim calls ? |
18:27.39 | Samot | But it's all it does, makes calls. |
18:27.46 | Samot | It's an automated alerts system. |
18:27.50 | Samot | It doesn't have "users" |
18:27.54 | Samot | or devices. |
18:28.07 | Samot | callfiles and provider trunks.. |
18:28.25 | zacky83 | you have 1800 sim calls, I asked for 1000 with a powerful server |
18:28.37 | Samot | I just explained the difference. |
18:28.49 | Samot | It's a box that doesn't have devices or users. |
18:28.50 | *** join/#asterisk pvoigt (~Linux@unaffiliated/pvoigt) |
18:28.56 | Samot | It makes outbound calls only. |
18:29.01 | Samot | And not ALL the time. |
18:29.09 | zacky83 | ok then I will take 4 servers dealing 250 sim call if the cpu is too short |
18:29.10 | Samot | Like 4 times a day or more. |
18:29.28 | Samot | The fact you will have devices and users changes how the resources are being used. |
18:29.37 | drmessano | All this for calling that nobody will use |
18:29.58 | zacky83 | samot , so in my case , with users. how much can I achieve? |
18:30.06 | Samot | I have no fucking clue. |
18:30.10 | Samot | There's no plan. |
18:30.18 | Samot | No real description of what the hell you are doing. |
18:30.32 | zacky83 | just sip conferencing |
18:30.38 | Samot | You are trying to build a god damn ITSP in #asterisk without knowing the basic of Telephony. |
18:30.46 | drmessano | SIP conferencing now? |
18:30.51 | Samot | FFS. |
18:31.11 | zacky83 | FFS ? |
18:31.22 | Samot | I'm sure you can google it. |
18:31.33 | drmessano | Just like E1 |
18:31.44 | zacky83 | messano I never googled it |
18:31.50 | Samot | You asked "why call the media?" when I was referring to media as in audio.. |
18:31.56 | Samot | You thought I wanted to call the press. |
18:32.27 | zacky83 | samot I am just starting on asterisk and I appreciate your expertise |
18:32.43 | zacky83 | this does not mean my ideas are bad and that I will not succeed |
18:32.45 | Samot | Then listen to what people have been telling you. |
18:32.57 | Samot | Based on what you've said so far... |
18:33.03 | Samot | It's not a good idea. |
18:33.10 | zacky83 | you are very pessimistic |
18:33.14 | Samot | No. |
18:33.18 | Samot | Realistic. |
18:33.27 | drmessano | Nothing to do with optimism |
18:33.37 | drmessano | You've given sales answers to technical questions |
18:33.45 | Samot | I just watch a client scrap two years and hundreds of thousands of dollars on an APP that he can't get off the ground. |
18:33.45 | zacky83 | I hade the same critics at start and I made a 3M unique visitor website |
18:33.55 | Samot | Overall? |
18:33.58 | Samot | In a month? |
18:34.00 | zacky83 | monthly |
18:34.06 | WIMPy | Just because something is a bad idea doesn't mean it won't be a success. In fac it actually seems to help these days. |
18:34.07 | Samot | What type of site? |
18:34.09 | drmessano | 3M hits a month, including DDOS |
18:34.42 | zacky83 | I have to go to the supermarket, I will be back in one hour |
18:34.50 | Samot | WIMPy: This is a classic case of a VoIP quick cash scheme. |
18:35.07 | zacky83 | it is always nice to discuss with people not sharing the same vision |
18:35.10 | Samot | I've had so many talks with people from the Middle East and that area of the world about this. |
18:35.24 | Samot | And when it comes down to it, they all flake. |
18:35.28 | WIMPy | The whole VoIP story is a quick cash scheme. So he must be on the right track. |
18:35.37 | Samot | No it is not. |
18:35.41 | Samot | Not when it's done right. |
18:35.47 | Samot | But, I'm silly. |
18:35.53 | drmessano | He hasnt even researched |
18:36.07 | Samot | I treat VoIP service as a Telecom Utility service. |
18:36.26 | Samot | You know, like any other "traditional" telephone service. |
18:36.43 | Samot | I guess having to answer to the Feds for half my Telecom carrier does that. |
18:37.40 | Samot | Those pesky Telecommunications and Public Utility rules.. |
18:38.05 | drmessano | If you have to google for answers while you're being questioned, thats not a good sign |
18:38.41 | Samot | If you don't know why Calls Per Second or Answer Seizure Rates are important, that's also bad. |
18:39.38 | drmessano | He's basically going to wrap Wifi calling into some text/video chat app |
18:39.49 | drmessano | Which in 2013 would have been neat |
18:40.18 | Samot | Again, I think I had six major projects offered to me last year alone from that part of the world.. |
18:40.22 | drmessano | If I call Steve and he's not connected to the server, the call routes over SIP -> ISDN > PSTN |
18:40.26 | Samot | They have very lofty ideas. |
18:40.32 | drmessano | If he is, it goes over Wifi |
18:40.39 | drmessano | But thats Wifi calling |
18:40.40 | Samot | Very cavalier about spending money.. |
18:40.50 | Samot | Until it's time to actually spend money. |
18:41.03 | Samot | Or have to do the footwork for things. |
18:41.05 | drmessano | and I can do Wifi calling to and from Steve with the tools the carriers now employ |
18:41.10 | drmessano | Its baked in |
18:41.25 | drmessano | I use Wifi calling a LOT |
18:41.33 | drmessano | As a matter of fact |
18:42.12 | drmessano | I get 1 bar in my office. I maybe miss 5 out of 100 calls.. have one drop now and then |
18:42.28 | drmessano | I noticed my phone defaults to Wifi calling now when I get in my office |
18:42.37 | drmessano | Thats pretty fucking neato |
18:43.02 | drmessano | I havent had a call mysteriously go to voicemail or drop a call since |
18:43.48 | drmessano | I know so many people that "don't get calls at home" that have benefited from it |
18:44.09 | drmessano | I will give him credit that he IS trying to solve THAT problem |
18:44.13 | drmessano | But it's already been solved |
18:44.27 | drmessano | No need for an app anymore |
18:47.01 | drmessano | I wonder if WhatsApp or ANY voice app could now, with IOS 10, determine a user is offline for calls and instead route the call to their PSTN number on file, using your phones dialer |
18:47.28 | drmessano | Because Apple loosened up a bunch of the permissions to permit apps to access the phone functions |
18:47.57 | drmessano | If so, WhatsApp or anyone else could put him out of business before he's started.. |
18:48.40 | Samot | Well this started because he asked how to "dynamically configure" 10,000 accounts on Asterisk... |
18:48.43 | Samot | "on the fly" |
18:49.02 | Samot | Then complained he didn't want to use RealTime because of SQL. |
18:49.12 | Samot | But doesn't want 10,000 accounts in his sip.conf |
18:49.22 | Samot | Or have to edit the sip.conf all the time, etc.. |
18:49.46 | drmessano | Well, that's definitely one of his problems. I just think he sees a lot of value in the "adaptive calling" portion, and I think that market is dead |
18:50.17 | Samot | Well just very, very hard to break into. |
18:50.30 | Samot | And make anything return a value. |
18:50.31 | drmessano | Wifi calling kills it though |
18:50.43 | drmessano | and I believe Wifi calling does SMS too? |
18:50.57 | drmessano | Surely it does |
18:51.52 | drmessano | So baked-in carrier seamless call routing blows his app up |
18:52.22 | drmessano | and from the app side, WhatsApp can access the Android Dialer.. probably the IOS dialer, so it could route the calls as needed |
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18:56.02 | drmessano | if he wants to make a quick buck |
18:56.17 | drmessano | He should focus on encryption |
18:56.32 | drmessano | Because secure messaging is the talk of the Libtards |
18:56.55 | drmessano | Trump removing all our freedoms, etc. People are making bank on the paranoia |
19:10.25 | Samot | It's the whole "I'll get into the cutting edge stuff once the big guys have the market" |
19:10.45 | Samot | It should have been when the big guys where waiting for one of them to take the leap. |
19:11.33 | drmessano | Copying is only a good thing if you're taking something that someone else is doing and FIXING what sucks about it |
19:11.37 | Samot | It's also when the big guys are watching the little guys to see how well / bad they do. |
19:11.47 | drmessano | he mentioned Snapchat earlier |
19:12.06 | drmessano | That was new |
19:12.07 | Samot | "First to market" is a double edge sword. |
19:12.22 | drmessano | Everyone that tried to copy it has failed |
19:12.29 | Samot | True. |
19:12.43 | Samot | But the thing is.. |
19:12.52 | drmessano | 14:12:08 <Samot> "First to market" is a double edge sword. <-- Just ask Meerkat |
19:12.53 | Samot | If they can get something on par... |
19:13.09 | drmessano | Meerkat was copied by Twitter as Periscope |
19:13.12 | drmessano | Guess who won |
19:13.16 | Samot | Yup. |
19:13.25 | drmessano | Because they made it suck less |
19:13.32 | Samot | Sometimes the first to market isn't always the winner. |
19:13.42 | Samot | Because the other guys get to see how it happens. |
19:13.57 | drmessano | I know Apple would never do this |
19:13.58 | Samot | And avoid any pitfalls. |
19:14.04 | drmessano | But if they wanted to crush a lot of the market |
19:14.12 | drmessano | iMessage for Android |
19:14.29 | drmessano | Which is what Blackberry SHOULD have done with BBIM |
19:14.33 | Samot | When I was using an iPhone, the iMessage was a good thing. |
19:14.35 | drmessano | They did, WAY too late |
19:14.40 | Samot | Yup |
19:14.56 | Samot | Blackberry... |
19:15.00 | drmessano | If they had brought BBIM to Windows mobile, Android, and IOS back then |
19:15.01 | drmessano | WOW |
19:15.04 | Samot | A good idea done horrible. |
19:15.42 | drmessano | The only thing missing from iMessage is usernames |
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19:16.09 | drmessano | The only thing missing from Facebook Messenger is simple sign up, without having a full FB Account |
19:16.18 | drmessano | Theres a lot of "If only.." |
19:16.46 | Samot | Blackbeery was poised to take the market. |
19:16.51 | Samot | Blackberry |
19:17.10 | Samot | To the point, we even invested in a BES system. |
19:17.46 | Samot | It went from being a driving product to a "yeah we have it for people who just haven't let go" |
19:17.58 | drmessano | When I worked for an MSP in 2008-2009, we had LOTS of BES deployments |
19:18.05 | Samot | Yup. |
19:18.08 | drmessano | it was almost a standard install |
19:18.16 | Samot | And then... |
19:18.21 | drmessano | They got SBS, they pretty much got BES |
19:18.24 | Samot | You just didn't upgrade to make the users leave. |
19:18.37 | drmessano | One thing killed Blackberry |
19:18.42 | Samot | Because BES was no longer selling. |
19:18.45 | drmessano | I can narrow it to ONE thing |
19:19.01 | drmessano | The Torch and the iPhone debuted at the same time |
19:19.12 | drmessano | Guess which one worked? |
19:19.18 | Samot | Yeah. |
19:19.28 | Samot | Torch.. |
19:19.36 | Samot | Kinda an ironic name. |
19:19.43 | Samot | Because it burned them hard. |
19:19.56 | drmessano | I love a good hyperbole, dont get me wrong |
19:20.00 | drmessano | But the Torch |
19:20.43 | drmessano | We had SO MANY customers ditch for the iPhone.. and it was because of the Torch. Lots of organizations got ONE, decided they were fucked if they didnt switch to the iPhone |
19:21.09 | drmessano | I'll add this in too |
19:21.40 | drmessano | One of the same reasons I dislike Android in general is the same problem I had with Blackberries |
19:21.47 | Samot | ? |
19:21.49 | drmessano | Carrier controlled updates |
19:21.55 | Samot | Ahh |
19:22.35 | drmessano | Because specifically with the Torch, they did fix SOME of the BIG issues.. like the address book just going blank and other buggy shit.. The stuff that wasnt *poor design*. |
19:22.51 | drmessano | But the carriers were so slow to release updates, as they were with any BBOS releases |
19:23.12 | drmessano | "Yeah, BB fixed that, but we have no idea when Verizon is going to push that update" |
19:23.34 | drmessano | Customers dont care that its Verizon. Their phone is fucked, and they want it fixed |
19:23.55 | Samot | That is a PITA. |
19:24.07 | drmessano | We used to grab updates from european carriers |
19:24.20 | drmessano | You could unpack them and change the region file or something.. |
19:24.27 | drmessano | or maybe it was some carrier ini |
19:24.43 | drmessano | and then zip it back up, drop it in Blackberry Desktop, and update |
19:25.14 | drmessano | But that was luck and ALSO relied on other carriers being more cavalier |
19:25.47 | zacky83 | I m back |
19:25.59 | zacky83 | do you know ONOFF app |
19:26.01 | zacky83 | ? |
19:26.23 | zacky83 | they offer extra number for 3 |
19:26.40 | zacky83 | they raised a lot of money |
19:26.50 | drmessano | They raised a lot of capital |
19:26.54 | drmessano | You mean |
19:27.03 | drmessano | "raised" != Earnings |
19:27.09 | zacky83 | they raised millions for this app |
19:27.23 | drmessano | *Raised* |
19:27.24 | zacky83 | and I offer almost the same for free |
19:27.27 | drmessano | "raised" != Earnings |
19:27.44 | drmessano | So you're expecting some angel to come in and give you a shit ton of capital |
19:27.53 | drmessano | Basically youre building a bubble |
19:27.56 | zacky83 | no I don't need money |
19:28.11 | drmessano | You said they raised money, and that was your comparison |
19:28.17 | Samot | Raised means they owe people money. |
19:28.21 | zacky83 | just to say this app has low features and is expensive |
19:28.32 | Samot | Because they own invenstors. |
19:28.41 | zacky83 | Raised mean they convince people to pay |
19:28.54 | zacky83 | for the dev |
19:28.58 | Samot | Right. |
19:29.03 | Samot | Investors. |
19:29.26 | Samot | Or did they do a GoFundMe campaign? Either way people gave money with an expectation of something in return. |
19:29.38 | drmessano | lol |
19:29.39 | zacky83 | I am not asking you to invest in my app , but if they succeed to get millions for a paying service and that I offer a free service with better things |
19:29.40 | Samot | Investors have this thing about seeing a return. |
19:29.53 | drmessano | zacky83: Do you understand the difference between raising capital and actual profitability |
19:29.53 | Samot | No one is "paying for the service" |
19:30.04 | Samot | Someone has paid them to "develop" a service. |
19:30.12 | Samot | That they will use to sell to people and make revenue with. |
19:30.19 | drmessano | I just found OnOff on a capital "dating" site, so to speak |
19:30.19 | zacky83 | messano yes . but you should be conscious getting an extra number is interesting |
19:30.29 | drmessano | Advertising the company for other investors |
19:30.45 | drmessano | zacky83: I have lots of extra numbers and I pay for none of them |
19:31.00 | zacky83 | messano how is this possible? |
19:31.06 | drmessano | Apps |
19:31.14 | zacky83 | free apps ? |
19:31.19 | drmessano | Yes |
19:31.28 | zacky83 | which ones? |
19:31.43 | Samot | Is Google broken for you? |
19:31.54 | drmessano | Have you even researched the market? |
19:32.01 | Samot | I doubt it. |
19:32.04 | zacky83 | I thought only onoff offered this in europe |
19:32.17 | zacky83 | I don't aim usa or the rest of the world |
19:32.32 | zacky83 | samot you re in the USA? |
19:32.37 | Samot | Yes. |
19:32.41 | Samot | Well no. |
19:32.42 | Samot | Canada. |
19:32.47 | Samot | But I'm from the US. |
19:32.59 | zacky83 | US market /canada is very different for telephony |
19:33.17 | zacky83 | messano are you in europe ? |
19:33.17 | Samot | But the basics are pretty much the same. |
19:33.49 | WIMPy | is not so sure about that. |
19:33.50 | Samot | Considering the US basically create the PSTN. |
19:34.05 | zacky83 | I try to focus on one market or two |
19:34.11 | Samot | The basics of telephony are different in EU than the US? |
19:34.13 | Samot | CPS? |
19:34.14 | WIMPy | And kept it unchanged ever since :-) |
19:34.15 | Samot | ACD? |
19:34.19 | Samot | Busy Hours? |
19:34.31 | Samot | Managing the services.. |
19:34.36 | Samot | Market research? |
19:34.43 | Samot | Basics... |
19:35.05 | zacky83 | samot , for example calling usa is free for european persons , but europe make paying calls inside their countries |
19:35.15 | Samot | ??? |
19:35.17 | Samot | HAHA |
19:35.20 | Samot | OK. |
19:35.31 | Samot | It's not "free" |
19:35.35 | Samot | Someone is paying for it. |
19:35.47 | Samot | and if it's part of the phone service package, then you are paying for it. |
19:35.58 | drmessano | I've always understood Europe to much more progressive |
19:36.08 | drmessano | to be* |
19:36.19 | Samot | I'm not going to charge you a call to NY but I will charge you to call the next city over? |
19:36.24 | Samot | That's not really "progressive" |
19:36.26 | drmessano | Emerging mobile technologies and all |
19:36.34 | Samot | No, that they are kicking ass on. |
19:36.42 | drmessano | Oh as far as calling rates, yes |
19:36.57 | zacky83 | drmessano are you located in europe ? |
19:37.00 | drmessano | Yeah their rules and regulations are archaic |
19:37.15 | drmessano | But as far as mobile network and handset features |
19:37.21 | drmessano | Like Wifi calling |
19:38.01 | drmessano | Australia is/was like that too |
19:38.16 | Samot | It doesn't matter what part of the world you are from. |
19:38.20 | drmessano | They pay out the ass, but they take our lunch on new shit |
19:38.33 | Samot | Asterisk box + PSTN connection + billing software does not make you a VoIP provider. |
19:38.43 | drmessano | Everyone in OZ was doing Free SMS in 2000 |
19:38.59 | drmessano | We were still paying for it for another decade |
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19:39.29 | drmessano | I could send 100 texts per month with SunCom |
19:39.33 | drmessano | Free |
19:39.39 | drmessano | Buy 300 more for $10 |
19:42.11 | zacky83 | drmessano just checked the wificalling on iphone 6S , not available |
19:42.37 | zacky83 | in my country I think |
19:42.38 | drmessano | zacky83: What country are YOU in? |
19:42.41 | ChannelZ | If Apple doesn't do it, clearly nobody needs to. |
19:42.42 | zacky83 | France |
19:42.57 | zacky83 | drmessano what is your country ? |
19:43.53 | drmessano | Orange offers it in France.. I got that from a google search |
19:44.06 | drmessano | I could keep googling and find others |
19:44.09 | drmessano | 5c or later |
19:44.17 | drmessano | and probably any number of Android devices |
19:44.26 | zacky83 | not on my carrier |
19:44.30 | drmessano | Orange Neva 80 |
19:44.39 | drmessano | Just googled and they offer it on that device |
19:44.54 | drmessano | zacky83: Who is your carrier? |
19:45.01 | zacky83 | bouygues |
19:45.18 | drmessano | heh |
19:45.50 | drmessano | Ok, so you have a budget carrier |
19:45.58 | zacky83 | no |
19:47.13 | drmessano | Yes |
19:48.31 | zacky83 | searched for it, not available on most carriers |
19:48.36 | drmessano | ROFL |
19:48.43 | drmessano | Thats not true AT ALL |
19:49.03 | zacky83 | do you read french ? |
19:49.09 | Samot | Rofl. |
19:49.15 | Samot | It's the Internet, he doesn't have to |
19:49.20 | drmessano | Oh thats clever |
19:49.23 | Samot | He can hit the "Translate" button. |
19:49.38 | drmessano | Im missing all the french websites that clearly state they dont support Wifi calling |
19:49.51 | drmessano | Even though I can google a list of carriers in france that do |
19:49.55 | zacky83 | <PROTECTED> |
19:50.06 | drmessano | Thats YOURS |
19:50.27 | zacky83 | there are 4 carriers in *France |
19:50.39 | zacky83 | orange , sfr , bouygues , free |
19:51.26 | zacky83 | drmessano are you located in europe ? |
19:52.24 | drmessano | http://www.iphon.fr/post/apres-orange-sfr-et-bouygues-telecom-preparent-la-voix-sur-wifi-854122 |
19:52.38 | drmessano | That was from June |
19:53.12 | zacky83 | nothing moved since |
19:54.11 | zacky83 | just to understand you , what is your country ? |
19:54.16 | drmessano | You didnt even know what it was 2 hours ago, how are you an expert now on who has deployed it? |
19:54.51 | zacky83 | because I looked at this underground option ,and it is not available on Bouygues |
19:55.16 | Samot | Plus the Carrier is listed on Apples "Supports Wifi Calling" list. |
19:55.48 | zacky83 | I think only orange supports it |
19:55.52 | drmessano | Its not underground |
19:56.00 | Samot | Bouygues : FaceTime over Cellular1 : LTE : Personal : Hotspot2 : Unlocking2 : Visual Voicemail : VoLTE5 |
19:57.06 | drmessano | That list is also slightly lagging |
19:57.30 | drmessano | With it being so extensive, understandably so |
19:57.36 | Samot | Either way, if the don't have it now it appears they're getting ready to do so. |
19:57.51 | drmessano | Yeah, like tomorrow or next week kinda ready |
19:58.01 | drmessano | Especially if they have VoLTE |
19:59.19 | Samot | It sounds like you're trying to fix a problem that solutions exist for. By the time you get yours in place, the other major carriers can have Wifi calling in place. |
19:59.38 | Samot | They aren't going to let one of their main competitors take that business. |
19:59.46 | drmessano | This "underground feature" negates all of your automagic Wifi <> PSTN and PSTN <> Wifi calls |
20:00.59 | Samot | And the thing about Wifi Calling... |
20:01.19 | Samot | There will be people that will use it that wouldn't install an app to do the same thing now. |
20:01.31 | Samot | Because they don't want all the extra app crap, they want the one feature. |
20:01.41 | zacky83 | it is a pack of features |
20:01.48 | Samot | If they want the features. |
20:02.01 | zacky83 | and not everybody understand how to activate wifi calling |
20:02.02 | drmessano | Who wants to do that when they have SEAMLESS calling |
20:02.04 | Samot | People aren't going to get something with 12 feature when they only want 1 of them. |
20:02.17 | Samot | Not when they can get that 1 feature, by itself, elsewhere. |
20:02.34 | zacky83 | samot , I like apps that have multiple features in it |
20:02.39 | Samot | So? |
20:02.43 | Samot | A lot of people do. |
20:02.45 | drmessano | I like puppies |
20:02.46 | Samot | And a lot of people don't. |
20:03.00 | drmessano | But not puppies with 10 legs |
20:03.19 | Samot | You're offering a service that major carrier and mobile device makers are putting in place.. |
20:03.25 | Samot | That will do it better. |
20:03.28 | Samot | More integrated. |
20:03.36 | zacky83 | so you will keep on using whatsapp if you have something with more feature ? |
20:03.47 | Samot | I use Whatsapp for a specific purpose. |
20:04.02 | Samot | To allow those that would have International charges for texting/calling me. |
20:04.06 | Samot | And vice versa. |
20:04.19 | Samot | I don't use Whatsapp for people that can text/call me for free. |
20:04.24 | Samot | That's dumb. |
20:04.52 | Samot | So maybe 1% of my text/calls are handle via Whatsapp. |
20:04.59 | Samot | Because I also have Skype. |
20:05.04 | Samot | Like millions of people. |
20:05.52 | zacky83 | people do not like their data to be hosted in USA , I ll be the first european messenging app ;) |
20:06.19 | Samot | Because of EU laws. |
20:06.26 | Samot | So you're going to follow all those laws? |
20:06.50 | Samot | You're using baseless things to make a conclusion from. |
20:07.20 | zacky83 | I think too much things are hosted and decided in the USA , I think we need alternatives |
20:07.30 | Samot | The fact you are failing to acknowledge any risk issues or that there will be problems is a major red flag. |
20:07.31 | zacky83 | don't you agree ? |
20:07.51 | Samot | Who decides to host in the US? |
20:08.01 | Samot | That's someone decision. |
20:08.08 | drmessano | Yeah I would consider anything hosted in the US to be suspect |
20:08.20 | zacky83 | google , microsoft , twitter etc ... all is in USA |
20:08.27 | drmessano | Yep, all insecure |
20:08.35 | Samot | Generally people in other parts of the world, like India, hosted in my data center because their data center connections sucked. |
20:08.58 | Samot | And when they had a big non-India base, they wanted faster response times. |
20:08.59 | drmessano | I would sink as much as you can into this app |
20:09.29 | Samot | If you refuse to acknowledge the fact there will be risks and pitfalls, you are dooming yourself. |
20:09.46 | drmessano | Why innovate when you can imitate and claim "They dont have that here!"... |
20:09.48 | zacky83 | samot , what risk are you talking about ? |
20:09.59 | Samot | The fact you have to ask that.... |
20:10.07 | Samot | Consumer demand. |
20:10.10 | Samot | Marketing.. |
20:10.12 | drmessano | You know that building services based on geographic ignorance is a failing proposition, right? |
20:10.14 | Samot | Competition.. |
20:10.30 | Samot | Revenue stream... |
20:10.32 | zacky83 | messano , what do you mean ? |
20:10.50 | Samot | Cost of acquisitions.. |
20:11.12 | zacky83 | samot , I focus only on one market . and I will do marketing on my website |
20:11.21 | drmessano | zacky83: Building something under the premise that "Well, it hasnt rolled out here" when the train is CLEARLY coming FAST, just means you havent been hit yet by it |
20:11.36 | Samot | Market knowledge. |
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20:12.08 | zacky83 | messano I don't understand your point |
20:12.17 | Samot | You have failed to demonstrate that you understand this business, let alone the market you are entering. |
20:12.39 | Samot | He saying.. |
20:12.57 | Samot | That next month your carrier and the other carriers can announce they are rolling out Wifi calling.. |
20:13.10 | Samot | That will be the solution to the issue you are trying to address... |
20:13.21 | Samot | They announced they were bringing it LAST YEAR. |
20:13.35 | zacky83 | samot , no , this is only a feature among others |
20:13.59 | Samot | But it's the one feature that requires you to invest in numbers, E1 lines and a voice network.. |
20:14.20 | Samot | Are the other features going to be enough revenue to cover the fact you're losing money on the voice portion? |
20:14.27 | zacky83 | yes because I feel offering telephony is important ,and offering extra numbers. |
20:14.31 | drmessano | zacky83: You have clearly argued that your product isn't irrelevant because "They dont have that here yet" |
20:14.38 | Samot | But is it PROFITABLE? |
20:14.41 | drmessano | zacky83: But that's going to change, SOON.. |
20:14.46 | drmessano | zacky83: So WHAT THEN? |
20:14.58 | Samot | I get that you want voice in your service offering.. |
20:15.08 | Samot | But it's an expensive service to offer. |
20:15.10 | zacky83 | and extra number |
20:15.10 | drmessano | Wifi Calling is HERE |
20:15.21 | drmessano | Its a WAY OF LIFE |
20:15.21 | Samot | So how will you cover those costs?! |
20:15.25 | zacky83 | and messaging |
20:15.30 | Samot | If no one uses your voice network.. |
20:15.34 | drmessano | Maybe it will be 3 weeks before your carrier has it |
20:15.34 | Samot | Or barely uses it.. |
20:15.41 | Samot | How will it be a money maker? |
20:15.44 | drmessano | But its ALIVE and out in the wild |
20:16.01 | Samot | How do you justify the costs of what is needed to supply the service?! |
20:16.03 | zacky83 | the costly part is to buy servers and PCI cards |
20:16.08 | drmessano | So youre going still going to build something that does the same thing because "Well, its not on my phone yet" |
20:16.19 | Samot | How many *PAYING* users do you need to make your voice network not bleed money? |
20:16.35 | drmessano | zacky83: How much will 35 E1's cost you per month? |
20:16.45 | zacky83 | I will rely on ads too |
20:16.50 | drmessano | ....... |
20:16.56 | Samot | That's not how ad revenue works. |
20:17.03 | Samot | If they don't make money off your buy... |
20:17.12 | Samot | They won't rebuy |
20:17.13 | drmessano | I've never seen a goalpost move this much in my life |
20:17.17 | drmessano | Even in JV football |
20:17.35 | Samot | Again, you're using baseless things for a conclusion. |
20:17.37 | zacky83 | the costly part is to buy the hardware |
20:17.41 | Samot | No it's not. |
20:17.42 | drmessano | No its not |
20:17.45 | zacky83 | after that , it will be very little money |
20:17.48 | drmessano | ROFL |
20:17.51 | Samot | OK. |
20:18.04 | Samot | <-- 23 years in the provider sector. |
20:18.04 | drmessano | Samot: How much do you think a FULL E1 runs per month? |
20:18.12 | drmessano | In France |
20:18.15 | Samot | <-- 13 years in Tier 1/2 Telecom. |
20:18.20 | Samot | Well... |
20:18.28 | drmessano | We need 35 of them |
20:18.33 | Samot | It's about 500Kbps faster than a T1 |
20:18.47 | Samot | The going rate for a T1 is about $100 to $150 on a good day. |
20:18.56 | zacky83 | I will run around 4 x 8 xE1 |
20:19.06 | Samot | So you can pad that by another $75 |
20:19.09 | zacky83 | so I have to buy those cards |
20:19.13 | Samot | So lets say $200 for an E1 |
20:19.21 | zacky83 | no no |
20:19.21 | Samot | 34 of them.. |
20:19.28 | Samot | How much is an E1 circuit? |
20:19.29 | zacky83 | I will buy the hardware |
20:19.46 | Samot | What hardware? |
20:19.48 | zacky83 | 8 E1 is around 1500 |
20:19.51 | drmessano | zacky83: Thats $7300 a month |
20:20.01 | zacky83 | so with 6000 I have th hardware |
20:20.03 | zacky83 | no |
20:20.06 | drmessano | Yes |
20:20.07 | Samot | ? |
20:20.08 | zacky83 | once for the life |
20:20.11 | drmessano | NO |
20:20.11 | Samot | No. |
20:20.15 | Samot | That's not how that works my friend. |
20:20.18 | drmessano | You have to pay for the LINES |
20:20.24 | Samot | There is monthly costs for that E1 |
20:20.28 | drmessano | 34 E1s from your telco |
20:20.34 | zacky83 | but I will be a telecom operator |
20:20.38 | drmessano | ROFL |
20:20.39 | drmessano | NO |
20:20.40 | Samot | No you will NOT |
20:20.45 | drmessano | You still have to connect to the PSTN |
20:20.55 | Samot | A real Telecom operator has a direct connection to the PSTN |
20:21.05 | Samot | Has peering contracts with other Telecoms. |
20:21.17 | Samot | Is regulated by the government of the country they are in. |
20:21.33 | zacky83 | when being assigned the 10 000 numbers blocks , I will assign them to my datacenter with the PCI cards |
20:21.34 | Samot | Has a huge list of rules and regulations to follow |
20:21.39 | zacky83 | where is the cost in that ? |
20:21.46 | drmessano | zacky83: Those CARDS need LINES |
20:21.48 | drmessano | E1s |
20:21.52 | drmessano | 34 of them |
20:21.54 | drmessano | PER MONTH |
20:21.57 | Samot | Where are you getting 10,000 number blocks from? |
20:22.03 | drmessano | $200~ x 34 |
20:22.14 | zacky83 | 10 000 number from government authority |
20:22.14 | drmessano | $6800 |
20:22.24 | drmessano | $6800 PER MONTH for the E1s |
20:22.39 | drmessano | Maybe a little less since you're doing bulk |
20:22.50 | Samot | If you are becoming a "REAL" Telecom carrier... |
20:23.14 | Samot | You're looking at HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS or MILLIONS in investment and operating costs. |
20:23.25 | zacky83 | telecom operator will route all the calls to my 10 000 numbers to my asterisk server |
20:23.26 | drmessano | If you are becoming a real carrier, you'll have interconnect with the other carriers, and it will cost WAY more than $6800 a month |
20:23.32 | drmessano | YES THEY WILL |
20:23.33 | Samot | Whoa.. |
20:23.34 | drmessano | Over E1 |
20:23.40 | drmessano | $6800 PER MONTH for the E1s |
20:23.42 | Samot | Then you are not a Telecom Operator. |
20:24.05 | drmessano | zacky83: Those cards enable you to accept E1 lines |
20:24.08 | drmessano | Do you follow that much? |
20:24.34 | zacky83 | so you are telling me that operators will route incoming calls to me for 200$ per month .? right ? |
20:24.39 | drmessano | No |
20:24.43 | drmessano | $200 PER E1 |
20:24.46 | Samot | Not at all. |
20:25.05 | drmessano | You will get calls over the E1 from a telecom you pay |
20:25.12 | drmessano | $200 per E1 |
20:25.18 | drmessano | THats $6800 USD |
20:25.23 | drmessano | PER MONTH |
20:25.48 | zacky83 | ok that s an interesting point , I thought that as a telecom operator they will route that for free |
20:25.48 | Samot | If there is a Telecom carrier between you and the PSTN... |
20:25.53 | Samot | NO |
20:25.55 | drmessano | ROFLLLLLLL |
20:26.02 | drmessano | Wait |
20:26.14 | drmessano | This like a Michael moment from The Office |
20:26.30 | drmessano | "I DECLARE.. BANKRUPTCY!!!" |
20:26.30 | Samot | I have invested A LOT of money, time and resources into my network. |
20:26.48 | Samot | And my carriers don't route shit for free to me. |
20:27.07 | Samot | I have to pay for the DIDs. |
20:27.10 | drmessano | zacky83: You have to pay for services.. you dont just throw a box into a data center with some cards in it and start calling yourself a telco |
20:27.18 | Samot | I have to pay usage... |
20:27.18 | zacky83 | you tell me 200$ per E1 per month , but maybe in some countries it is not that price |
20:27.29 | drmessano | ...... |
20:27.29 | Samot | We don't know. |
20:27.35 | drmessano | It wont be less |
20:27.38 | Samot | We're speculating based on T1 costs. |
20:27.42 | zacky83 | I will ask |
20:27.48 | drmessano | $150 for a T1 |
20:27.50 | Samot | And since E1's offer more channels and bandwidth.. |
20:27.51 | drmessano | Even if |
20:28.09 | *** join/#asterisk Rini (uid196547@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sipascegfzgnqsdo) |
20:28.11 | drmessano | EVEN IF it's $150 a month.. thats $5000 |
20:28.17 | drmessano | a month |
20:28.21 | Samot | For your connection. |
20:28.25 | drmessano | Yes |
20:28.29 | Samot | Not counting your data center rates. |
20:28.30 | drmessano | Just to have the E1s hot |
20:28.38 | Samot | You DID rates. |
20:28.41 | Samot | Your usage rates. |
20:28.42 | zacky83 | data center 350 to get 1 Gbit bandwidth |
20:28.51 | Samot | OK. |
20:28.57 | zacky83 | DID cost almost nothing |
20:29.02 | Samot | But they COST |
20:29.08 | drmessano | They normally dont cost much.. thats meaningless |
20:29.11 | drmessano | A DID is just a number |
20:29.14 | drmessano | Its not a LINE |
20:29.22 | drmessano | You need LINES |
20:29.23 | Samot | Every cost has to be accounted for. |
20:29.31 | Samot | 10,000 BLOCKS |
20:29.35 | Samot | That's $$$$$ |
20:29.42 | drmessano | Maybe I should reiterate that |
20:29.45 | drmessano | DID's are NOT LINES |
20:29.52 | Samot | Yup. |
20:29.56 | zacky83 | no it is very cheap |
20:29.57 | drmessano | Buying 10000 DID's just gives you DIDs |
20:30.01 | Samot | Right. |
20:30.06 | drmessano | You need 1000 LINES |
20:30.09 | Samot | But he's brushing off their costs. |
20:30.18 | Samot | Which is bad. |
20:30.28 | drmessano | and THAT is the big cost |
20:30.47 | zacky83 | I need to have the info on how much it cost to route external calls to me |
20:30.52 | Samot | To have 1000 sim calls you need to support 1000 calls.. |
20:30.55 | zacky83 | from the 4 main carriers |
20:31.05 | Samot | Using an E1 means you are limited to 30 calls per E1 |
20:31.19 | zacky83 | yes I know I need over 30 E1 |
20:31.20 | drmessano | So 34 of them |
20:31.27 | ConSi | Seriously, I've read 3 hours of arguing about wonderful application which will be written by guy that doesn't want to use SQL. And it will get 100k+ downloads |
20:31.37 | drmessano | ConSi: Pretty much |
20:31.45 | Samot | Sorry |
20:31.51 | Samot | I was #triggered |
20:32.00 | Samot | I take being a VoIP provider seriously. |
20:32.18 | drmessano | and no concept of monthly costs for all these ISDN lines |
20:32.24 | zacky83 | samot are you a voip provider yourself ? |
20:32.49 | drmessano | Your first months bill for telecom will likely be close to your server and hardware purchases |
20:32.50 | Samot | Yes. |
20:32.57 | drmessano | If not 2 months |
20:33.03 | Samot | I have been in the sector for over 13 years. |
20:33.28 | Samot | I have worked for actual Tier 1 carriers, fully regulated by the government.. |
20:34.00 | Samot | I was privy to the Net Neutrality hearings because our company was part of the hearings. |
20:34.15 | Samot | At both State and Federal levels. |
20:35.05 | drmessano | I repair cell phones for Kanye West and the Kardashians |
20:35.13 | Samot | I have dealt with departments of ATT, Verizon, Qwest/CenturyLink, Level3 and others that most would never even know existed. |
20:35.22 | drmessano | So I am kind of a big deal |
20:35.58 | Samot | Oh yeah, I told the French police about you using their cell phones to track them to get robbed. |
20:36.06 | Samot | You'll be getting a visit soon. |
20:36.08 | Samot | FYI. |
20:36.12 | ConSi | So one guy from Toulon France has a brilliant idea which will be a voip game changer, but apparently it isn't and you guys are still trying explian him why he is wrong? |
20:36.19 | ConSi | Just stop wasting time :P |
20:36.44 | drmessano | ConSi: You dont find this entertaining? |
20:36.48 | Samot | ConSi: Voice service is a utility service. I think that is standard in EU. |
20:36.50 | drmessano | Im only here for the lulz |
20:36.56 | Samot | Which means people expect certain things... |
20:37.03 | ConSi | drmessano: 3 hours of your life, that are gone forever :> |
20:37.13 | Samot | Like "Why doesn't my emergency call go through?" |
20:37.22 | Samot | It's Saturday, we're bored. |
20:37.30 | drmessano | ConSi: Dude, i've been doing this for 12 years. It's more like MONTHS now |
20:37.34 | ConSi | :D |
20:37.41 | drmessano | I could take up smoking |
20:37.45 | drmessano | and live longer |
20:38.16 | Samot | I find that alcohol preserves you pretty good. |
20:38.25 | Samot | At least a lot of whisker. |
20:38.28 | Samot | At least a lot of whiskey. |
20:39.33 | drmessano | Honestly though |
20:39.37 | drmessano | Someone was wrong on the internet |
20:39.42 | Samot | Yup. |
20:39.44 | Samot | I know. |
20:39.45 | drmessano | What else do you need? |
20:39.46 | *** join/#asterisk friedrich (~friedrich@aextron.de) |
20:39.57 | Samot | And not just wrong... |
20:40.04 | Samot | I mean WRONG. |
20:40.09 | drmessano | KA-WRONG |
20:40.28 | drmessano | Though I would like to be there when the first E1 bill comes in |
20:40.44 | Samot | And really, when you have passion about something and people are getting it wrong and smashing it to pieces... |
20:40.49 | Samot | You tend to fight for it. |
20:41.07 | ConSi | drmessano: E1 bill after first fraud on pbx |
20:41.15 | drmessano | ConSi: Oh THAT too |
20:41.25 | Samot | Oh that's not even the E1 bill. |
20:41.31 | Samot | That's just the usage charge. |
20:41.35 | drmessano | because, free calls are free because I declared myself a telco |
20:41.48 | drmessano | I DECLARE... TELCO |
20:42.12 | drmessano | heads for meme generator |
20:42.13 | Samot | I don't care if DIDs are $0.15/month per DID that's still $1500/month |
20:42.31 | Samot | That's still something you should have to account for. |
20:42.42 | zacky83 | DID are much cheaper in blocks |
20:42.52 | Samot | It DOESN'T MATTER |
20:42.56 | Samot | It's a COST |
20:43.01 | Samot | That you have to cover. |
20:43.02 | zacky83 | epsilon |
20:43.40 | Samot | How much time you spend supporting a customer...COST |
20:43.44 | ConSi | Samot: maybe he is a multi-millionaire and he is going to spend money just to run service for free |
20:43.57 | ConSi | (until his money eventually run out :>) |
20:44.21 | drmessano | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuGIgf-ICHM |
20:44.24 | zacky83 | when you launch an app you first invest then expect for it to work |
20:44.33 | drmessano | Per Month |
20:44.45 | drmessano | Same as your E1s |
20:44.45 | Samot | I have no idea that that statement means. |
20:44.58 | Samot | 3:44:30 PMÂ <zacky83>Â when you launch an app you first invest then expect for it to work <-- WUT? |
20:45.02 | drmessano | Really, which bear is best? |
20:46.08 | zacky83 | samot how much cost 10 000 numbers per year in your country ? |
20:46.20 | Samot | Depends on the deal I cut with the carrier. |
20:46.36 | zacky83 | samot , just the numbers , not the lines |
20:46.44 | Samot | Depends on the deal I cut with the carrier. |
20:47.25 | zacky83 | I think costs are very differents from one country to another |
20:47.28 | drmessano | Give him an example.. Make it a best case |
20:47.41 | Samot | Well for 10,000? |
20:47.43 | drmessano | Because he going to continue to insist everything is cheaper than we say |
20:47.48 | drmessano | Because France |
20:47.51 | zacky83 | samot per year |
20:47.54 | Samot | I'd get them for $0.05 without asking hard. |
20:48.01 | Samot | They don't charge per year. |
20:48.07 | drmessano | So $500 a month |
20:48.12 | Samot | Because DIDs do not have a "time period" |
20:48.17 | Samot | Yes. |
20:48.30 | Samot | So I would need to make sure I account for that $500 a month |
20:48.32 | zacky83 | so there are very huges differences |
20:48.37 | drmessano | I cant see the E1s being cheaper than the T1s figure we used |
20:48.43 | drmessano | zacky83: How so |
20:48.53 | drmessano | zacky83: How much are DIDs going to cost you? |
20:48.55 | zacky83 | in over a 10 factor |
20:49.02 | drmessano | $500 a year? |
20:49.09 | zacky83 | less |
20:49.22 | drmessano | O.o |
20:49.29 | Samot | Well.. |
20:49.43 | Samot | considering you though the E1s was a one time lifetime payment |
20:49.54 | Samot | I don't put much stock in this statement. |
20:49.55 | drmessano | zacky83: Doubtful |
20:50.22 | zacky83 | samot , I wasn't knowing for E1 routing costs |
20:50.32 | Samot | Yes. |
20:50.34 | Samot | I know. |
20:50.39 | zacky83 | it does not mean I don't know things |
20:50.49 | Samot | Which makes me believe you don't know the DID costs correctly. |
20:51.00 | zacky83 | I asked the price |
20:51.10 | drmessano | Im gonna find the most cut rate DID provider I can |
20:51.19 | Samot | zacky83: So far everything you have brought up has shown you don't have answers or the basic knowledge for most of this. |
20:51.33 | ConSi | I don't know how it works in france, but even If i assume that DIDs are for free in Poland you will need to do a pretty complicated reports yearly (which are costs time of employees), you are also obligated to be connected to emergency numbers routing system, inter telco number transfer system and this all costs money |
20:51.38 | ConSi | :> |
20:51.57 | Samot | Now I can see that. |
20:52.11 | zacky83 | consi , are you in Poland ? |
20:52.12 | Samot | DIDs are free because they have to be connected to something that require a larger investment. |
20:52.16 | ConSi | zacky83: yup |
20:52.17 | drmessano | He's not going to be the provider either |
20:52.22 | drmessano | He's going to be buying |
20:52.26 | Samot | That's true. |
20:52.47 | Samot | Now in that case.. |
20:52.51 | Samot | Yes, it's annual. |
20:52.54 | zacky83 | consi , is E1 routing to your infrastructure costly or free ? |
20:53.09 | ConSi | Samot: in poland you can get assignment from government, as big as you want but you need to document every number and make it reachable in system which can transfer it between telco operators |
20:53.12 | Samot | Because you're paying for ownership of those blocks but you do have to show usage. |
20:53.36 | Samot | ConSi: That's considered a Tier 1 Carrier. |
20:53.49 | Samot | ConSi: They own the infrastructure that connects to the PSTN |
20:53.53 | ConSi | Samot: yes, but it's pretty simple here to have such infrastructure |
20:53.57 | Samot | And is part of the core PSTN routing. |
20:54.05 | Samot | Yes, it's easy here too. |
20:54.12 | Samot | Money, time, lots of paperwork.. |
20:54.16 | ConSi | yes |
20:54.21 | ConSi | and people for this paperwork |
20:54.22 | Samot | But that's a portion of it. |
20:54.38 | Samot | Just because I bought the DID blocks, filled out the paper work.. |
20:54.43 | Samot | Means nothing outside that I own DIDs. |
20:54.49 | zacky83 | consi , apart from papers and time , how much cost just the routing to PBX infrastructure in Poland ? |
20:54.50 | Samot | Well here.. |
20:54.50 | ConSi | people that will handle systems with emergency routing exchange |
20:54.56 | Samot | For you, you have to get into things. |
20:54.57 | drmessano | zacky83: You are a RESELLER |
20:54.59 | ConSi | zacky83: it depends |
20:55.06 | drmessano | You dont just E1 for free |
20:55.21 | Samot | zacky83: At best you will be a Tier III provider. |
20:55.23 | ConSi | and, if the emergency routing will fail, you can be sued for causing a someone death |
20:55.29 | ConSi | and so on and so on... :D |
20:55.33 | Samot | Yes. |
20:55.42 | Samot | Again, this is why I get #triggered over these things. |
20:55.44 | zacky83 | Consi , do you have a price in mind ? |
20:55.50 | Samot | zacky83: STOP. |
20:55.55 | drmessano | I think he's missing the part where he's not a provider |
20:56.04 | Samot | Now you're just asking about pricing in markets that you're not even in. |
20:56.14 | Samot | Well he "is" |
20:56.17 | Samot | Or can be. |
20:56.21 | Samot | But like Tier III |
20:56.29 | Samot | I'm going to guess Tier IV |
20:56.59 | ConSi | he is thinking that he will got an assignment and other carriers just accept him to exchange voice traffic with this assigned numbers |
20:57.06 | ConSi | but well, they will not :D |
20:57.11 | Samot | No kidding. |
20:57.22 | zacky83 | Consi , I am just asking you the price for it |
20:57.57 | Samot | zacky83: People don't like talking about their money directly. |
20:58.20 | Samot | What ConSi's company gets has no bearing on you. |
20:58.49 | Samot | Carriers may have "pricing templates" but they'll adjust pricing based on the deal you can make with them. |
20:58.59 | zacky83 | ok |
20:58.59 | drmessano | ConSi: How much could a startup expect to pay in Poland for 34 E1s? |
20:59.10 | drmessano | ConSi: Someone without an "in" |
20:59.12 | Samot | That's a better way to ask the question. |
21:00.23 | WIMPy | How many hours have you been writing senseless stuff here now? |
21:00.30 | Samot | Which one of us? |
21:00.45 | WIMPy | All |
21:00.57 | Samot | How long have I been on IRC in this channel? |
21:01.26 | zacky83 | IRC is supposed to help beginners to understand things , it is not senseless |
21:01.54 | WIMPy | Depends on the answers you get to your questions. |
21:02.06 | Samot | Or the questions. |
21:02.41 | zacky83 | I see you all are long time experts here , this is not my case , I am curious and I want to create things |
21:02.57 | Samot | And our point... |
21:02.59 | drmessano | zacky83: Then open your EARS |
21:03.04 | Samot | you are trying to create things out of your skillset. |
21:03.07 | drmessano | or in this case, your EYES |
21:03.22 | drmessano | Arguing about constants is dumb |
21:03.37 | drmessano | You can argue all you want about how successful you plan to be |
21:03.48 | drmessano | But when someone says "Thats going to cost X" |
21:03.51 | drmessano | and you reply "No" |
21:03.57 | drmessano | Then Seriously, WTF |
21:03.58 | zacky83 | I heared you when you warn me about e1 line monthly costs . |
21:04.06 | Samot | I recall I was going to be a touring rock icon 20 years ago.. |
21:04.13 | Samot | I told people all about it.. |
21:04.17 | zacky83 | I need to have prices in europe too , and consi do not have this info maybe |
21:04.30 | Samot | You need to do this on your own. |
21:04.31 | drmessano | It wont cost you less than we discussed |
21:04.37 | Samot | ^ That |
21:05.00 | Samot | You can look at thousands of dollars in monthly operation costs. |
21:05.00 | drmessano | You really expect to get a full E1 for $10 a month? lol |
21:05.10 | drmessano | or even $100? |
21:05.17 | Samot | Before you even calculate your own time/cost. |
21:05.27 | zacky83 | drmessano , I will get the information |
21:05.50 | Samot | You should of had this information before getting 10,000 DIDs from the government. |
21:05.52 | zacky83 | I am highly motivated |
21:05.53 | drmessano | Dude |
21:06.27 | drmessano | Even giving you lowball costs you argued that you could do better |
21:06.54 | zacky83 | I only said prices where maybe different in different countries |
21:06.54 | drmessano | So even for the sake of argument, throwing out round numbers, you act like $6000 is off by $6000 |
21:07.05 | drmessano | You cant accept ANY cost at this point because you seem to think its free |
21:07.23 | Samot | Or accept there are MONTHLY costs. |
21:07.25 | zacky83 | I did not say that |
21:07.42 | drmessano | Ok, what if it's $3400 a month for the E1s? |
21:08.07 | drmessano | Thats $3400 more than you planned |
21:08.19 | zacky83 | 3400$ per month is ok |
21:08.30 | Samot | Now add in usage |
21:08.35 | Samot | Data center costs |
21:08.42 | Samot | Cost of marketing, sales, support.. |
21:08.42 | WIMPy | Seems expensive. |
21:08.49 | Samot | Billing.. |
21:08.54 | zacky83 | what do you call usage cost ? |
21:09.03 | drmessano | Toll Fees |
21:09.05 | Samot | Per minute costs for outbound/inbound calls |
21:09.11 | drmessano | The cost of the actual CALLS |
21:09.28 | drmessano | $3400 is $100 per E1, per month, for just the LINE |
21:09.34 | Samot | If you use 500,000 minutes in a month, you're paying for that. |
21:09.37 | zacky83 | are you telling me I will pay for incoming calls ? |
21:09.40 | Samot | Yes. |
21:09.41 | drmessano | and thats probably undershooting it by 100% |
21:09.42 | Samot | And outgoing. |
21:09.45 | [TK]D-Fender | just having a PRI != long-distnace biolling for service, etc |
21:09.50 | drmessano | ^ that |
21:09.54 | Samot | Have you done ANY research? |
21:10.13 | [TK]D-Fender | Also not BOILING service. That's under heating costs. |
21:10.16 | drmessano | So say $200 a month for an E1.. Which goes back to $6800 |
21:10.20 | WIMPy | That will not cost, off course. We're not in the US. |
21:11.05 | WIMPy | wonders who is less realistic in here. |
21:11.10 | Samot | OK WIMPy, you're in the EU.. |
21:11.20 | Samot | What's an E1 circuit run on average? |
21:11.30 | zacky83 | I will also ask about if incoming calls are charged for a telecom operator |
21:11.31 | drmessano | I think he'd rather insult than contribute, but that's normal |
21:11.52 | Samot | And OUTGOING |
21:12.05 | Samot | Since you're big app is all about outgoing calls. |
21:12.06 | WIMPy | A single E1 is 90 EUR. |
21:12.15 | Samot | So about $150/US |
21:12.18 | Samot | Or a little more. |
21:12.28 | Samot | So I was pretty damn close. |
21:12.29 | zacky83 | 90 eur is 95 $ |
21:13.16 | zacky83 | so we are around 3000 for 34 E1s |
21:13.19 | Samot | Did Brexit really screw the Euro over that much? |
21:13.28 | Samot | Oh well at least you have an IDEA |
21:13.38 | Samot | But who knows what the E1 will cost YOU |
21:13.38 | WIMPy | Who would pay the same price in that volumes? |
21:14.00 | Samot | Well he's getting E1's from different carriers apparently. |
21:14.03 | zacky83 | WIMPY , within this 90 price for E1 , are incoming calls free or not ? |
21:14.07 | Samot | NO |
21:14.11 | Samot | E1 is for the LINE |
21:14.13 | Samot | That's it. |
21:14.14 | WIMPy | Off course they are. |
21:14.40 | verticelo | In Sweden operators pay you for incoming calls, why is that not the case in the US for example? |
21:15.00 | verticelo | no line fees/channels to pay etc.. just revenue for every minute in |
21:15.13 | Samot | In a lot of cases, incoming usage is not charged to the end user. |
21:15.14 | WIMPy | Yes. Free would be the maximum price :-) |
21:15.17 | zacky83 | verticelo , in sweden it is free and you are paid for incoming calls ? |
21:15.42 | drmessano | Except he's not an operator |
21:15.53 | Samot | He's a reseller. |
21:15.54 | zacky83 | drmessano I said you I will become one |
21:15.55 | drmessano | He's an end user |
21:15.59 | WIMPy | In Germany you also get paid for incomming calls if you're a provider. |
21:16.17 | Samot | From the other provider? |
21:16.24 | Samot | Those are Carrier PEER deals. |
21:16.31 | WIMPy | But it you make enough volume you might even get some share as a customer. |
21:16.34 | drmessano | Same in the US |
21:16.37 | Samot | It worked the same with us and ATT, Verizon. |
21:16.38 | zacky83 | ok that s what I wanted to knwow , you can have free incoming calls |
21:16.40 | drmessano | Carrier to Carrier |
21:16.42 | Samot | We're not talking CARRIER PEERS |
21:16.46 | drmessano | But he's NOT a carrier |
21:17.09 | *** join/#asterisk tuxian (~tuxian@igilmour.plus.com) |
21:17.17 | Samot | Unless these E1s are with the other France carriers and this is a talk about INTERCONNECTs |
21:17.34 | zacky83 | drmessano I am not a carrier but will be a telecom operator |
21:17.43 | Samot | .... |
21:17.49 | drmessano | You won't be peering with anyone |
21:17.55 | drmessano | You will an end user |
21:18.06 | drmessano | Well, or a reseller |
21:18.13 | drmessano | if you're charging users |
21:18.20 | drmessano | At best, you're a reseller |
21:18.47 | WIMPy | Surely good enough. |
21:19.07 | Samot | There's nothing wrong with being that. |
21:19.14 | Samot | He isn't realizing that's what he is.. |
21:19.23 | drmessano | For what he needs it is, but arguing about getting paid to terminate calls is nothing he can participate in as a reseller |
21:19.37 | zacky83 | WIMPY said a provider can be paid for incoming calls , is there a difference between provider and telecom operator ? |
21:19.40 | WIMPy | Why not? |
21:20.05 | Samot | WIMPy: I have no say in my Carrier getting paid or having to pay other Carriers. |
21:20.26 | Samot | I don't impact x-connect deals. |
21:20.42 | Samot | I also don't benefit from getting paid for that inbound usage. |
21:20.49 | Samot | While not be charged for it. |
21:21.03 | Samot | That's a whole different level. |
21:21.28 | drmessano | So in the EU I can buy an E1 from Orange, or whoever telecom, buy a block of DIDs, and get a check every month for all the calls that terminate to my PBX? Thats awesome |
21:22.33 | WIMPy | As a reseller that should work. Depending on you volumes and so on, off course. |
21:22.50 | Samot | Then who is paying for the calls? |
21:22.58 | Samot | So you call me.. |
21:23.05 | Samot | My carrier and I get paid for your call? |
21:23.09 | verticelo | yes, even as a reseller, you get a revenue share from the carrier for the incoming traffic you generate.. since you can take your business to any other carrier the carriers are interested in getting a split of the termination fee |
21:23.09 | WIMPy | The caller. Who else? |
21:23.23 | Samot | No, the caller pays THEIR provider. |
21:23.37 | Samot | How does that money get from the caller to the Carrier ACCEPTING the call? |
21:23.40 | WIMPy | And their provider pays your provider. |
21:23.44 | zacky83 | thank you for the info WIMPY and verticelo |
21:23.48 | Samot | So why would the provider pay me? |
21:23.52 | verticelo | the caller's carrier pays the carrier that terminates it |
21:23.56 | Samot | As the endpoint of the incoming call? |
21:24.07 | Samot | I know how Carrier to Carrier peering works. |
21:24.15 | verticelo | because you do a rev share with them |
21:24.16 | WIMPy | verticelo just explained that. |
21:24.17 | Samot | I'm trying to understand... |
21:24.24 | Samot | OK so that's optional... |
21:24.40 | Samot | I don't have to rev share with that person.. |
21:24.57 | WIMPy | It depends on your contract, sure. |
21:24.57 | verticelo | is anyone here in this channel running a telco business in europe and have access to DIDs? |
21:25.03 | Samot | K. |
21:25.11 | Samot | So it's not for any Joe Bloe that gets an E1 |
21:25.24 | Samot | Like for their hardware store.. |
21:25.34 | drmessano | or app |
21:25.35 | Samot | The carrier is not paying their end users for their incoming calls.. |
21:25.40 | WIMPy | Numers are usually managed by authorities, not telcos. |
21:25.49 | Samot | AS it is here. |
21:26.06 | Samot | The authority assigns those numbers to the OCN/SPID of the carrier.. |
21:26.16 | Samot | Everyone uses that routing database(s) |
21:26.41 | WIMPy | Ne, here they are assigned to the customer, not the telco. |
21:26.54 | verticelo | wimpy, which country are you located in? |
21:26.56 | Samot | But then the customer has to do all the foot work. |
21:27.02 | drmessano | So no fees on international calls either? |
21:27.03 | WIMPy | de |
21:27.36 | WIMPy | What track are you on? |
21:28.23 | Samot | drmessano I think we need to move to the EU. |
21:29.06 | verticelo | @Samot: I suppose you just need to get better deals from your carrier.. |
21:29.22 | Samot | I'm actually very happy with the deals I have. |
21:29.22 | zacky83 | samot you see europe is very different |
21:29.34 | Samot | The concepts of Telephony are not. |
21:29.39 | drmessano | zacky83: Its still not free |
21:29.44 | Samot | The concepts of providing a utility service are not. |
21:29.49 | Samot | They may vary slightly... |
21:29.54 | zacky83 | drmessano , I can be paid for incoming calls now |
21:29.59 | drmessano | ...... |
21:30.05 | Samot | You realize that else you have to do right? |
21:30.13 | Samot | Based on the other EU people in here. |
21:30.13 | drmessano | Well that should offset the $3000 a month then |
21:30.21 | drmessano | So go for it |
21:30.21 | Samot | You need to be connected to the Emergency Network.. |
21:30.37 | drmessano | Shh.. he's going to be paid for calls |
21:30.38 | Samot | Which from what ConSi said, isn't cheap |
21:30.48 | Samot | What about the OUTBOUND? |
21:30.49 | drmessano | This thing is already paying for itself |
21:31.23 | Samot | I get rev share with resellers who are bringing traffic in... |
21:31.31 | Samot | Which means it's bringing in revenue.. |
21:31.44 | verticelo | for outbound you pay, usually more than you get in rev share |
21:31.45 | Samot | But what about when the traffic out is costing money? |
21:31.50 | verticelo | yes, of cours |
21:31.52 | verticelo | e |
21:32.14 | Samot | zacky83 still hasn't provided any answer on that. |
21:32.18 | zacky83 | verticelo , what condition must you have to be paid for incoming calls in sweden ? |
21:32.25 | Samot | But has said that the core use of voice on his app is OUTBOUND. |
21:32.33 | Samot | And that no one will really make inbound calls. |
21:32.38 | drmessano | verticelo: So 1000 concurrent calls, with say 50% of those being inbound, wouldn't offset itself and generate $3000 a month from the revenue share? |
21:33.00 | zacky83 | samot I said exactly the opposite . an extra number to be called |
21:34.06 | Samot | How much did this app cost roughly? |
21:34.09 | verticelo | basically you receive $0.001 per minute for inbound calls and pay $0,002 per minute for outbound calls |
21:34.17 | drmessano | zacky83: ^^^ |
21:34.28 | verticelo | as an example |
21:34.37 | verticelo | it depends on geography etc.. but basically that's it |
21:34.38 | zacky83 | thanks verticelo |
21:34.39 | drmessano | Thats your "being paid" |
21:34.45 | Samot | How much did this app cost roughly? |
21:34.53 | drmessano | So you're still not making a profit from terminating calls |
21:34.55 | zacky83 | samot : it is free |
21:35.00 | Samot | How is it free? |
21:35.06 | Samot | How much did it cost YOU |
21:35.10 | drmessano | You're still paying for outbound |
21:35.19 | drmessano | So lets do the math |
21:35.24 | Samot | Wait. |
21:35.27 | zacky83 | outbound is exceptional |
21:35.30 | Samot | I want this number for the math. |
21:35.36 | verticelo | drmessano: of course, yes.. suppose you run a conferencing service where you do not have outbound then you "only" have revenue in |
21:35.36 | zacky83 | extra number to be reached |
21:35.45 | Samot | How much did it cost YOU to develop this app of yours? |
21:35.59 | zacky83 | verticelo that's it |
21:36.12 | zacky83 | samot I develop by myself |
21:36.16 | Samot | OK |
21:36.22 | Samot | So what is your hourly rate? |
21:36.30 | Samot | And how many hours did you spend on it? |
21:36.35 | zacky83 | a lot |
21:36.46 | Samot | How do you plan on recouping that cost? |
21:36.47 | verticelo | may I ask which app we are talking about? website? |
21:37.08 | Samot | He has some text/message/voice app he created that will be better than Whatsapp. |
21:37.10 | Samot | According to him. |
21:37.15 | zacky83 | verticelo , I am building a mobile app to make messaging and voice with extra number |
21:37.16 | drmessano | verticelo: Right.. So a 50/50 split of inbound/outbound would basically be offset by .001 |
21:37.18 | Samot | Because they don't know "the trick" |
21:37.39 | Samot | zacky83: The time you spend developing that app is a COST |
21:37.48 | verticelo | zacky83: that is the business I'm in, already running such an app |
21:37.49 | Samot | Which means you should/want to recoup that cost. |
21:38.02 | drmessano | So basically |
21:38.05 | drmessano | Doing the math |
21:38.07 | Samot | So you're entering this in the red already. |
21:38.09 | zacky83 | verticelo ? really ? |
21:38.09 | drmessano | 1000 concurrent calls |
21:38.18 | drmessano | 50/50 inbound/outbound |
21:38.21 | drmessano | at .001 |
21:38.29 | drmessano | 42000 x .001 x 1000 = 42000 |
21:39.13 | verticelo | yes, we do extra numbers, inbound/outbound/SMS/MMS, international calls, transfering of number between users, international numbers etc |
21:39.14 | zacky83 | drmessano , as you told it at start , user will buy credits only for outgoing calls |
21:39.21 | verticelo | there are tons of apps like that out there |
21:39.36 | drmessano | zacky83: But you said all this stuff about free calls |
21:39.46 | Samot | Yes, you did. |
21:39.52 | drmessano | Only some calls would be charged |
21:39.54 | drmessano | Ad revenue |
21:40.10 | Samot | verticelo: That's been our point. |
21:40.35 | Samot | Not to mention a lot of EU carriers bringing in Wifi Calling. |
21:40.47 | drmessano | So while an E1 is cheaper than I expected, you're still gonna pay some for calls.. they're not free |
21:40.55 | drmessano | and that cost.. is YUGE |
21:41.00 | Samot | $0.002 per minute. |
21:41.04 | drmessano | Well |
21:41.11 | drmessano | Sorta |
21:41.17 | drmessano | I split the calls 50/50 |
21:41.29 | Samot | Welll that's the per minute cost. |
21:41.41 | drmessano | If you recieve .001 per inbound |
21:41.46 | drmessano | and pay .002 for outbound |
21:41.50 | Samot | 500 calls will be .001 |
21:41.54 | drmessano | I did 1000 x .001 |
21:41.55 | Samot | 500 calls will be .002 |
21:42.00 | Samot | Ahh. |
21:42.18 | Samot | Avg call 10 minutes.. |
21:42.25 | Samot | So .02 call.. |
21:42.28 | Samot | 500 calls... |
21:42.29 | drmessano | I did 42000 minutes a month |
21:42.35 | Samot | Yeah.. |
21:42.45 | Samot | I thought you were just doing inbound math. |
21:42.51 | drmessano | No |
21:43.00 | Samot | I get what you did now. |
21:43.06 | drmessano | I factored in the offset |
21:43.17 | Samot | Yup. |
21:44.13 | Samot | Inbound rev share and ad revenue should not be the core revenue for a startup business. |
21:44.23 | Samot | Specially one that has so much larger competition.. |
21:44.48 | verticelo | Since you are deconstructing businesses.. anyone has any idea how vectone can offer such crazy low international call prices? seems like a scam to me |
21:44.50 | Samot | Might be able to talk the ad people into a decent first buy rate.. |
21:45.16 | Samot | But when the ads don't generate clicks..they'll dump out for the next buy. |
21:45.25 | verticelo | Also, you have Pinger/Sideline offering free calls etc only ad supported? |
21:45.29 | Samot | vericelo: I have one theory. |
21:45.46 | Samot | verticelo: I have one theory. |
21:46.06 | Samot | They have peers with other providers in those countries. |
21:46.18 | drmessano | Extremely cheap and unreliable routes |
21:46.21 | Samot | They avoid the PSTN directly. |
21:46.31 | Samot | It's what we did with Gradwell. |
21:46.43 | Samot | For their US local/toll free numbers. |
21:46.56 | Samot | And how we got out EU DIDs from them. |
21:47.19 | verticelo | Samot: talking about Vectone or Sideline now? |
21:47.35 | drmessano | MagicJack principle |
21:47.36 | Samot | Well how to offer crazy low International prices.. |
21:47.50 | Samot | Peer with providers over SIP in those locations. |
21:47.57 | zacky83 | verticelo: can I try your app ? |
21:48.17 | drmessano | Can he have the source code |
21:48.23 | verticelo | Not sure I believe that is the case, since they offer it extremely cheap in many countries such as the middle east etc.. I don't think they get any discounts there |
21:48.41 | Samot | It's a theory. |
21:48.51 | Samot | It's what we did with the ITSP back in the day. |
21:49.06 | drmessano | I doubt some of these guys are doing anything legit |
21:49.10 | Samot | We sent US DIDs to Gradwell.net in the UK.. |
21:49.13 | drmessano | Not scammy, per se, but illegal |
21:49.29 | Samot | And we would let them send US calls to us. |
21:49.32 | verticelo | Yes, but in Asia/ME the markets are regulated and there is no way they are getting discounts since there is no incentive at all for the carrier to discount the termination |
21:49.37 | drmessano | Government circumvention sorta stuff |
21:49.56 | Samot | Is VoIP regulated? |
21:50.01 | verticelo | yes |
21:50.10 | drmessano | Like VPN tunneled SIP peers to Vietnam |
21:50.11 | Samot | We got around that with an India provider. |
21:50.18 | Samot | Used non standard ports. |
21:50.19 | verticelo | you are talking about simboxing now? |
21:50.20 | drmessano | Where you get your hands chopped off |
21:50.34 | verticelo | zacky83: www.addaline.com |
21:50.58 | drmessano | Used to see a lot of guys in here doing that sort of stuff |
21:50.59 | Samot | We just sent the call to whatever IP and port they asked. Sometimes it was port 80. |
21:51.26 | Samot | But in that case.. |
21:51.30 | drmessano | Get a buttload of Analog lines, drop them into an Asterisk box peered to something outside the country over VPN |
21:51.43 | drmessano | Boom, Banana Telco |
21:51.45 | Samot | They were just resellers. We weren't using them for anything. |
21:52.05 | zacky83 | verticelo thank you |
21:52.34 | zacky83 | verticelo not available in France right now :( |
21:52.35 | Samot | However, neither Gradwell or us really offered "crazy low" rates. |
21:52.47 | Samot | We offered rates slightly below market standard. |
21:52.49 | verticelo | zacky83: we are releasing france in a couple of weeks, 50 more countries as well |
21:52.55 | drmessano | How long has CarrierXchange been gone? |
21:52.56 | Samot | ROFL |
21:53.05 | Samot | They're launching in your market. |
21:53.22 | zacky83 | verticelo , do you know ONOFF app (a french company)? |
21:53.28 | Samot | So you're technically talking to a competitor. |
21:54.02 | drmessano | verticelo: Thanks for all the input on the pricing, BTW |
21:54.02 | Samot | drmessano: Remember that train you were saying was going to hit? |
21:54.10 | Samot | Yeah, that was helpful. |
21:54.11 | drmessano | I didnt expect the E1 would be $100 |
21:54.29 | Samot | Well my pricing was based on 3 years ago. |
21:54.32 | drmessano | But the per minute doesnt surprise me |
21:54.43 | Samot | When $100 was low. |
21:54.53 | verticelo | zacky83: no, never heard of them before |
21:55.05 | drmessano | verticelo: I think you're his competition before he even gets started |
21:55.14 | Samot | ^ That |
21:55.29 | verticelo | as i mentioned earlier.. there are tons of apps like this out there, I believe everyone has to find their nische vertical |
21:55.30 | *** join/#asterisk giesen (~ggiesen@2001:19f0:0:1019:5400:ff:fe25:bda6) |
21:55.30 | Samot | You're basically launching an app that does what he wants. |
21:55.36 | zacky83 | verticelo it is a startup that raised a lot of money and are launching everywhere in europe |
21:55.58 | Samot | But they're successful because they raised a lot of funding. |
21:55.58 | drmessano | Except verticelo has already launched |
21:56.01 | zacky83 | samot , my app is not only doing telephony |
21:56.08 | drmessano | ...... |
21:56.11 | Samot | Neither is his.. |
21:56.22 | Samot | He asked what your app did, you told him.. |
21:56.28 | Samot | He said "We have one like that" |
21:56.31 | Samot | You said "Can I see it?" |
21:56.34 | drmessano | No, it makes CALLS AND IT SENDS MESSAGES |
21:56.40 | drmessano | Which is like |
21:56.43 | drmessano | *Mind Blown* |
21:56.45 | Samot | And he gave you a link and said "We're launching in France" |
21:56.46 | drmessano | lol |
21:57.13 | zacky83 | samot and messano you like to see negative things |
21:57.23 | verticelo | zacky83: they seem to be more expensive that us if you actually use the service a fair bit.. we are targeting SMBs that might put 1-2 hours / day with calls |
21:57.24 | Samot | Nope. |
21:57.25 | drmessano | Reality |
21:57.35 | drmessano | I see Reality |
21:57.45 | Samot | verticelo sounds like he's is pretty good.. |
21:57.54 | drmessano | First and foremost I am an end user |
21:57.57 | Samot | He already has expectations and a market in mind. |
21:58.02 | zacky83 | verticelo , they take 2.99 per number and ask for credit for outbound calls |
21:58.04 | drmessano | Because I love product |
21:58.22 | Samot | He says in Adult Bookstores. |
21:58.32 | drmessano | lol |
21:58.55 | Samot | "BOYS I'M HEEERREEEE! I LOVE PRODUCT" (with air quotes around "product") |
21:58.56 | drmessano | Im not some corporate shill that focuses on numbers |
21:59.10 | drmessano | So when I say the concept is flawed |
21:59.17 | drmessano | or confusing |
21:59.23 | drmessano | or "I can already do that with ...." |
21:59.31 | drmessano | Its because it is, and I can |
21:59.50 | Samot | Yup. |
21:59.58 | Samot | Which then makes the numbers important. |
22:00.25 | Samot | Because if there is already a strong market and it's hard to get into...why bother when all those exist.. |
22:00.26 | verticelo | zacky83: Onoff charges USD 57.61 for 600 minutes of calls to the UK, we charge USD 21.2.. so for anyone that actually uses the number I think we have a fair price.. if you use it very rarely they win |
22:00.59 | drmessano | Sweet |
22:01.03 | zacky83 | verticelo yes I think they are too expensive |
22:01.07 | verticelo | assuming price is an important differentiator.. it might not be |
22:01.25 | drmessano | verticelo: Does your app send Glitter Cat GIFs? |
22:01.31 | igcewieling1 | migrane |
22:01.49 | igcewieling1 | fixes focus |
22:02.07 | Samot | I think this conversation is better read out of focus. |
22:02.21 | drmessano | From bottom to top, actually |
22:02.23 | verticelo | drmessano: not yet ;) waiting for our businesses customers to request it before we implement it... |
22:02.53 | drmessano | verticelo: I'm not a marketing guy, but I honestly think Glitter Cats could be the difference between success and failure |
22:03.38 | verticelo | drmessano: could be, could be.. but we feel at this time we might bet on flying cat gifs instead |
22:04.29 | drmessano | Whoa.. Im just looking at your site |
22:04.54 | drmessano | https://www.addaline.com/personal |
22:04.58 | drmessano | That's hardcore |
22:07.09 | Samot | That's pretty decent. |
22:07.12 | Samot | Nice. |
22:07.22 | verticelo | Thanks |
22:07.54 | Samot | So your app does all the stuff his app does basically plus gives multiple lines.. |
22:07.57 | Samot | Hrm.. |
22:08.15 | drmessano | $5 a month for a burner phone and someone to yell at if it breaks |
22:09.25 | Samot | You doing the signaling over TCP? |
22:09.31 | verticelo | TLS |
22:09.49 | Samot | TCP and encryption.. |
22:09.59 | verticelo | Yes |
22:10.05 | drmessano | Damn |
22:10.07 | Samot | So it handles well in "rest mode"? |
22:10.24 | verticelo | no, we register for every call |
22:10.42 | Samot | I meant for inbound. |
22:10.44 | verticelo | use different methods to wake up the phone (depends on platform) on inbound calls to have the phone register |
22:10.51 | Samot | OK. |
22:10.55 | verticelo | otherwise it would drain to much battery |
22:11.02 | drmessano | yeah |
22:11.18 | verticelo | but we also hunt the phone.. so if SIP doesn't get going within X seconds we call the SIM number instead |
22:11.31 | drmessano | TLS is a HUGE improvement over UDP on mobile, but its hard running a softphone 24/7 on IOS |
22:11.41 | drmessano | AH |
22:11.51 | drmessano | Literally the same as he wanted to do |
22:12.08 | Samot | Well you can't post pictures with this one. |
22:12.17 | drmessano | Yeah no glitter cats |
22:12.33 | verticelo | yes, we do support pictures via MMS or SMS with links, you can also record videos and audio messages? |
22:12.40 | Samot | Well thats different. |
22:12.53 | verticelo | we just don't have any template cat gifs already available.. you have to find them yourself.. |
22:12.59 | drmessano | lol |
22:13.01 | Samot | You're selling this as a new social media option. |
22:13.10 | Samot | +not |
22:13.24 | Samot | It's a voice app. |
22:14.17 | drmessano | verticelo: How frustratingly hard is it to get the bits in place to transport images from carrier to carrier from MMS? |
22:15.09 | drmessano | Because IIRC, something in the interconnect is the reason a lot of "apps" send links and host the images |
22:15.39 | verticelo | somewhat difficult.. to begin with large carriers usually operate via direct connections/vpn with static IPs and firewalls etc.. so you have to have a static environoment and take that into account (spinning up/down VPSes won't work with changing IPs), then you need to run a MMS software. MMS protocol by itself is pretty straight forward, it is bas |
22:15.40 | verticelo | ically SMTP. |
22:16.11 | drmessano | Ahh |
22:16.19 | verticelo | it's cheaper to send the link via SMS.. MMS is basically charged 10x to SMS |
22:18.06 | drmessano | When you say its "basically SMTP", is it specifically SMTP and is it related in any way to the carriers end-user accessible SMTP gateways for SMS/MMS? |
22:18.55 | verticelo | it depends on the standard, there are multiple different standard.. but the underlying carrier is SMTP and then there are some modifications to it |
22:19.04 | verticelo | not sure how it relates to the carriers end-user GWs |
22:20.21 | drmessano | Ok.. Just didnt know if maybe they were all the same boxes and carriers shot MMS's back and forth on a non-public network segment to those same boxes |
22:20.42 | drmessano | We've relied heavily on those for years |
22:22.53 | verticelo | drmessano: which company are you with? |
22:23.23 | drmessano | I'm work in the private sector, Broadcast Engineering |
22:24.33 | drmessano | I'm just a phone fanatic that sells and supports on the side |
22:24.34 | verticelo | aha, you do MMS? |
22:25.51 | verticelo | telephony is fun.. i like the interplay with software/hardware and sound and communication.. lot's of stuff going on and fun to play around with.. feels like you accomplish something |
22:25.58 | drmessano | Actually, what I was referring to above in usage has been for government. I volunteered for many years with Emergency Management and we did a lot of email <> SMS and email <> MMS |
22:26.08 | verticelo | was in the security analysis business for a long time and reviewing log files just wasn't as fun.. |
22:26.32 | drmessano | A lot of paging and alerting applications only speak SMTP |
22:26.40 | drmessano | So email gateways for SMS and MMS are awesome |
22:26.57 | verticelo | aha, interesting |
22:27.33 | drmessano | Nowadays I do all my alerting with Pushover. Been quite happy with the result |
22:27.57 | verticelo | zacky83: regarding your business.. all I can say is that the market is young, there is plenty of room if you have the marketing budget and a clear customer segment in mind.. right now the biggest hurdle is that people don't even know they can get a number from a company besides the large tier1 carriers |
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22:28.40 | verticelo | drmessano: ever feel worried that the push won't arrive etc and you miss the alert? |
22:29.38 | zacky83 | verticelo , I can rely on a huge basis of users . I think I can make it be a success |
22:30.06 | verticelo | we have our own alerting system that chases us, pings us via different notifications but also places a phone call to us if we don't act quickly enough |
22:30.45 | drmessano | verticelo: Not at all.. Pushover has been 100%. I'm actually LONG overdue to stop sending alerts to my inbox and Pushover. (I have been using my mailbox as a quality control/backup). |
22:32.01 | verticelo | k, we send quite a few pushes every day and we see the APNS gateways having issues at times |
22:32.03 | drmessano | I consistently, and without fail get my Pushover notification then 3 or 4 seconds later my IOS Priority inbox notification from my email |
22:32.23 | drmessano | The ONLY gripe i have with Pushover |
22:32.31 | drmessano | and give or take what you will |
22:32.45 | drmessano | It has some HTML features, but not tables |
22:33.20 | drmessano | and I have a particular piece of equipment that uses tables in the notifications |
22:36.33 | drmessano | They are adding a lot of neat stuff to Pushover as well |
22:37.15 | drmessano | I'm a beta tester, and occasionally they add stuff, realize it's not baked yet, and put it back in later.. but they're always releasing new features. |
22:38.26 | drmessano | My favorite recent addition.. You can set Priorities on Notifications.. The highest Priority requires acknowledgement or it will repeat |
22:38.37 | verticelo | happy to hear it works well for you! leaving email behind is very nice.. it's less stress also, felt like my inbox did way too much for a while, nice to have different stuff in different "channels" |
22:38.40 | drmessano | They added synced acknowledgements across devices |
22:39.20 | drmessano | So I can silence it on my iPad and not have to hunt for my phone, or vice versa.. But I like having 2 or 3 devices yelling at me across the house |
22:39.38 | verticelo | hehe :) |
22:39.41 | drmessano | I keep my previous iPhone around as a static pager |
22:39.54 | verticelo | so.. regarding Asterisk, anyone here doing ARI stuff? |
22:39.58 | drmessano | Sits on Wifi, runs Pushover and BRIA (in case I want to make calls) |
22:47.14 | verticelo | Does anyone have a pointer how to check if an originating channel has not received a 180 or 183 within 7 seconds from the origination attempt and if so hang up the channel using ARI? |
23:38.53 | igcewieling1 | verticelo: I strongly doubt it. |
23:39.22 | igcewieling1 | you could put a SIP proxy in front of Asterisk is you need those sorts of things. |
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