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| 18:39.00 | *** join/#arm-netbook Baybal (~baybal@d75-155-181-156.bchsia.telus.net) |
| 18:40.23 | Baybal | hi lkcl lkcl_ |
| 18:50.41 | Baybal | how severe is delay with nufront? |
| 18:52.14 | Baybal | what kind of prototype do they need? |
| 20:03.50 | lkcl_ | sorry Baybal am here now :) |
| 20:04.41 | lkcl_ | not sure how much is confidential / under NDA so can't exactly say but there is some progress recently |
| 20:21.17 | Baybal | ok |
| 20:21.20 | Baybal | mm |
| 20:21.33 | Baybal | do you have any other suppliers in sight? |
| 20:22.37 | Baybal | what is not under NDA? |
| 20:22.49 | Baybal | sorry for falling out of mailing list recently, I moved to Canada 1.5 years ago |
| 20:23.56 | Baybal | this is my linkedin profile http://ca.linkedin.com/pub/pavel-nikulin-baybal-ni/35/aba/912 |
| 20:25.09 | Baybal | can you describe on what stage of progress we are? |
| 20:30.28 | Baybal | lkcl lkcl_ ? |
| 20:34.44 | lkcl_ | yes a few. |
| 20:34.55 | lkcl_ | but basically, the summary i sent to the list is it. |
| 20:35.26 | lkcl_ | we've been in touch with dozens of OEMs: once we get past the language barrier (which is hit and miss) |
| 20:35.50 | lkcl_ | some of them "get it" and others don't. it's a numbers game |
| 20:36.15 | lkcl_ | if we had cash, we could have done this 10x over - one entirely new system every 6-8 weeks. |
| 20:36.35 | Baybal | I saw you CCed Ruslan Kogan on the maillist |
| 20:36.46 | Baybal | what is his interest in it? |
| 20:39.29 | Baybal | Since I moved to Canada, my business went pretty much belly up... I have only that much of cache to support myself. If I only decided to put away some money for this notebook enterprise earlier... pfff =( |
| 20:40.44 | Baybal | I wonder, if I can attract some funding from local industry circles and brains from academia |
| 20:41.18 | Baybal | local student association are very vocal on any RnD development opportunity |
| 20:50.27 | Baybal | lkcl lkcl_ ? |
| 20:54.44 | lkcl_ | ruslan? ohh, i think that was ages ago |
| 20:55.11 | lkcl_ | interesting idea. |
| 20:55.16 | Baybal | I saw him in Shenzhen a few times |
| 20:55.22 | lkcl_ | oh really? |
| 20:56.06 | Baybal | White people universally attract attention there =D |
| 20:56.12 | lkcl_ | :) |
| 20:56.32 | Baybal | it was a time when that direct ODM sourcing thing was a business of a very few people |
| 20:56.34 | lkcl_ | nothing to do with me being on street skates, then :) |
| 20:57.04 | Baybal | do you still have a connection to him? |
| 20:57.09 | lkcl_ | noo |
| 20:57.49 | Baybal | have you contacted possible distributors? |
| 20:58.48 | lkcl_ | that's being taken care of by my associates |
| 20:58.56 | Baybal | ok |
| 20:59.05 | Baybal | I'm looking forward to link up all parties involved to speed up development |
| 21:00.20 | lkcl_ | achhh, me too. |
| 21:00.23 | lkcl_ | yee gods |
| 21:00.44 | Baybal | is it possible for me to get in touch with people with whom you are working with now? |
| 21:00.49 | lkcl_ | i think the fact that linus torvalds has declared that no ARM linux kernel patches will be accepted will help :) |
| 21:00.56 | Baybal | lol |
| 21:01.14 | Baybal | do you have any Ubuntu contacts? |
| 21:01.36 | lkcl_ | well... it wouldn't help. each conversation is either at an advanced stage or they have lost interest |
| 21:02.08 | lkcl_ | so adding someone to an *existing* conversation doesn't actually help. |
| 21:02.24 | Baybal | ok |
| 21:02.37 | lkcl_ | however, if you wanted to start a *new* conversation with OEMs, ODMs, CPU manufacturers etc. that would be a real help |
| 21:02.57 | Baybal | so, how much companies are now close to roll out? |
| 21:03.08 | lkcl | zero. |
| 21:03.21 | lkcl | zero! |
| 21:04.11 | lkcl | amazing. after conversations of duration in some cases eight months, and with the actual work required to be done taking only about 6-8 weeks |
| 21:04.26 | lkcl | and it's because we're working to get *them* to pay for it, *NOT* us. |
| 21:04.37 | Baybal | if anybody can source cheap chips, I may try to contact inventech |
| 21:04.56 | lkcl | if *we* paid *THEM* to do the work, then they would be lazy |
| 21:05.11 | lkcl | it is the wrong way round. |
| 21:05.27 | lkcl | and they would still not have any software (linux kernel etc.) |
| 21:05.46 | lkcl | inventech... ahh.. they're the people behind the E28 linux smartphone, aren't they? |
| 21:05.52 | Baybal | yes |
| 21:06.22 | lkcl | http://www.e28.com/press.asp?id=137 |
| 21:06.23 | lkcl | yes. |
| 21:06.30 | Baybal | I will try to contact SIFE team at BCIT, they had an idea of some kind industry sponsored RND workshop |
| 21:06.42 | lkcl | oh _good_. |
| 21:07.00 | lkcl | well, ok - are you familiar with the "sales pitch" of what we're trying to achieve? |
| 21:07.08 | Baybal | they may make some case prototypes + uncomplicated pcb work |
| 21:07.11 | lkcl | the whole "modular design" thing? |
| 21:07.25 | lkcl | that'd be fantastic. |
| 21:07.37 | lkcl | that'd be perfect |
| 21:07.59 | Baybal | can I refer their president to you for details? |
| 21:08.04 | lkcl | yeah sure. |
| 21:08.18 | Baybal | I'm thinking for 8-9 inch form factor |
| 21:08.22 | lkcl | i'll briefly give you a heads-up if that's ok. |
| 21:08.24 | Baybal | middle end tft |
| 21:08.44 | Baybal | built-in planar lithium |
| 21:09.00 | lkcl | yeah that'd work. in fact, once the CPU module is done, it's so utterly simple (the main-board) |
| 21:09.11 | lkcl | the concept is this: |
| 21:09.17 | Baybal | keyboard, intelligent psu with i2c |
| 21:09.19 | Baybal | ? |
| 21:09.34 | lkcl | split the CPU+RAM+NAND onto a 50x70mm card, in a PCMCIA form-factor |
| 21:09.54 | lkcl | re-using the PCMCIA socket (housing, assembly, everything) |
| 21:10.22 | lkcl | put everything else (all the peripherals, LVDS etc.) onto the main motherboard. |
| 21:11.06 | lkcl | the 68 pins of the PCMCIA connector you *completely* re-use, to include: 24-pin RGB/TTL, Ethernet, USB2, SATA-II, I2C and about 8-10 GPIO pins. |
| 21:11.18 | lkcl | that's it. |
| 21:11.24 | lkcl | that's the "standard". |
| 21:11.39 | lkcl | the implications however are absolutely massive. |
| 21:11.42 | Baybal | what are the PSU requirements? |
| 21:11.51 | lkcl | PSU? power supply? |
| 21:11.52 | Baybal | yes |
| 21:12.02 | Baybal | any power gauge? |
| 21:12.20 | lkcl | that's a mainboard issue: it's entirely up to the ODM / designers |
| 21:12.25 | lkcl | power guage? I2C device. |
| 21:12.29 | Baybal | yes |
| 21:12.53 | lkcl | power guage - i.e. battery monitoring: that's an I2C device. the standard includes I2C :) |
| 21:12.59 | Baybal | to control battery charging, backlight etc |
| 21:13.07 | lkcl | backlight: I2C device :) |
| 21:13.12 | Baybal | ok |
| 21:13.13 | lkcl | battery charging: I2C device :) |
| 21:13.25 | lkcl | he he |
| 21:13.53 | lkcl | the standard also requires that there is an EEPROM on the mainboard (again, I2C), which contains "id info" |
| 21:14.14 | lkcl | this idenfier info says what type of screen, peripherals etc. the device has. |
| 21:14.51 | lkcl | so the CPU card can be plugged in, query the EEPROM, and go "oh yes, i now know to look for a 10in screen, let's go, yaay!" |
| 21:15.20 | lkcl | it solves _so_ many issues. |
| 21:15.33 | lkcl | not least, the linux kernel development is massively simplified. |
| 21:15.56 | lkcl | instead of a complete mess like it is now, you have a "Star Network" based around the standard. |
| 21:16.16 | lkcl | on one side, the linux kernel device drivers support various different main-boards ("chassis") |
| 21:16.36 | lkcl | on the other side, you have the CPU cards. |
| 21:17.06 | lkcl | the CPU cards can be aaabsolutely *anything* - intel, amd, ARM, MIPS, PowerPC, anything |
| 21:17.22 | Baybal | so, you are negotiating a pcmcia modules with all of ODMs? |
| 21:17.26 | lkcl | it doesn't matter... as long as they are low-power and can fit into 3mm x 50mm x 70mm |
| 21:17.28 | lkcl | yes. |
| 21:17.33 | lkcl | basically, yes. |
| 21:17.47 | lkcl | many of them simply do not understand so they give up. |
| 21:18.22 | lkcl | it is "too complicated" because they are expecting either an order (money) or they are expecting to receive a completed design, complete linux source code, spoon-fed... |
| 21:18.55 | lkcl | we must have spoken to over 100 companies by now :) |
| 21:19.14 | lkcl | ah... correction: it is *NOT* a pcmcia module |
| 21:19.38 | lkcl | it is a "module which happens to be exactly the same dimensions and use exactly the same connector of a PCMCIA module" |
| 21:20.07 | lkcl | there is a big, big difference. |
| 21:20.18 | Baybal | yes I know |
| 21:20.20 | Baybal | familiar |
| 21:20.27 | lkcl | whew. thank goodness for that :) |
| 21:20.58 | Baybal | and what input voltage are they looking for? |
| 21:21.19 | lkcl | but, think about it: you can remove the CPU card from your computer, and place it into a new chassis. instant upgrade. |
| 21:21.47 | lkcl | i've allocated two pins for 5v and four for 3.3v |
| 21:22.21 | Baybal | quite low power |
| 21:22.42 | lkcl | it'll still be necessary to have PMICs on the CPU card, because these processors take quite a lot of different core voltages (1.1v, 1.2v etc.) |
| 21:22.53 | lkcl | yes. |
| 21:23.29 | Baybal | so students will have freedom implementing battery/lcd backlight power schemes |
| 21:23.32 | lkcl | the maximum power budget is about 3 maybe 4 watts. no fans: the metal case is the heatsink. |
| 21:23.35 | lkcl | yyep. |
| 21:23.45 | Baybal | can you add me on linkedin? |
| 21:24.01 | lkcl | that 68 pins is the "standard", basically. everything else is up for grabs. |
| 21:24.03 | lkcl | sure. |
| 21:24.32 | lkcl | 1sec... |
| 21:25.28 | lkcl | done, i think... :) |
| 21:25.29 | Baybal | what the situation is now with software platform? |
| 21:25.31 | Baybal | yes |
| 21:26.28 | lkcl | which software? |
| 21:26.34 | lkcl | give me a clue :) |
| 21:27.21 | Baybal | which distro? |
| 21:27.40 | lkcl | on what - these devices? |
| 21:27.45 | Baybal | yes |
| 21:28.19 | lkcl | oh - absolutely anything. |
| 21:28.21 | lkcl | although... :) |
| 21:28.30 | lkcl | you remember i mentioned about the EEPROM? |
| 21:28.37 | Baybal | so, kernel will work well by default? |
| 21:28.39 | Baybal | yes |
| 21:29.04 | lkcl | well, of course, you can do a multi-boot system, detecting the screen size (or other capabilities) |
| 21:29.30 | lkcl | and thus can boot a *different* distro or operating system - entirely - based on what the CPU card finds itself in! |
| 21:29.47 | lkcl | so, if it's a small 7in tablet, you boot Android |
| 21:30.02 | lkcl | if it's in a 10in laptop, you boot up chrome os |
| 21:30.03 | Baybal | and if it's not NDA, can you say how many and what kinds of distributors have you contacted? |
| 21:30.12 | lkcl | it's not NDA. |
| 21:30.14 | lkcl | eek. |
| 21:30.14 | lkcl | ok. |
| 21:30.19 | lkcl | we've been in touch with: |
| 21:30.33 | lkcl | 6 CPU manufacturers (mostly ARM) |
| 21:30.55 | lkcl | 50 to 100 OEMs (i am losing track) |
| 21:31.25 | lkcl | 2 _very_ large OEMs (they're the ones with the most bureaucracy and internal politics...) |
| 21:32.23 | lkcl | my associates went to HK and to shenzen, about 6 weeks ago, to talk with several OEMs (and 2 of the CPU manufacturers) |
| 21:32.53 | lkcl | nufront, amlogic, texas instruments, freescale, ingenic. |
| 21:33.18 | lkcl | i'd really like to reach RDC but am having difficulties getting through their "contact us" barrier :) |
| 21:33.53 | Baybal | I'm asking it to think of a way to market the device |
| 21:33.55 | Baybal | finding a good way to market it will be as essential as implementing the device itself |
| 21:34.20 | lkcl | well it's a _range_ of devices, not just "one device". this is what many of the OEMs get massively confused about. |
| 21:34.37 | lkcl | they ask "how many and which product you want buy" |
| 21:35.10 | lkcl | and we respond, effectively, "absolutely none, unless you've modified them to our Common Design specification" |
| 21:35.12 | lkcl | :) |
| 21:35.18 | lkcl | this gets them very confused |
| 21:35.44 | lkcl | i say "if you modify, our clients by 50,000 per month" |
| 21:36.01 | lkcl | dropping into pigdin english... :) |
| 21:36.37 | lkcl | many of the OEMs lose the plot, and just start repeating the question, "we have good product! give you good price!" |
| 21:36.40 | Baybal | so, it's heavily ODM/OEM tied, rather than to consumer market? |
| 21:36.52 | lkcl | it would be hilarious if it didn't take so damn long |
| 21:37.31 | Baybal | maybe a graphic presentation would help them? |
| 21:37.33 | lkcl | only because of the approach we're taking |
| 21:37.50 | Baybal | I once spoke Chinese, but I can't write or read it |
| 21:37.56 | lkcl | yeah we've done that - they still get confused |
| 21:38.16 | lkcl | that's why my associates went over to the PRC. it helped enormously. |
| 21:39.40 | lkcl | so - yeah: these CPU cards can literally go into *any* device. 4in MID, 5in Video Player (a la archos), 7in-10in tablet, 7in-20in laptop, TV, PVR, Multimedia Player, All-in-One PC, Keyboard PC |
| 21:40.06 | lkcl | if it's a "consumer market device", it can be adapted to this concept. |
| 21:40.12 | lkcl | oh btw, i forgot to say: |
| 21:40.19 | lkcl | the external edge of the PCMCIA card? |
| 21:40.22 | lkcl | of course... |
| 21:40.43 | lkcl | it can have any of the "fast" connectors and/or the user-sockets |
| 21:41.01 | lkcl | such as HDMI, Micro-SD, USB-OTG, Headphone Jack etc. etc. |
| 21:41.22 | lkcl | as long as it fits within 3.5mm x 50mm (that's the edge of the PCMCIA card) |
| 21:41.47 | Baybal | just I think that looking further than B2B level would be a good thing. |
| 21:41.56 | Baybal | finding final customers etc |
| 21:41.56 | lkcl | it's *just* possible to get a Micro-HDMI, Micro-SD, USB-OTG |
| 21:42.01 | lkcl | oh. |
| 21:42.01 | Baybal | ok |
| 21:42.02 | lkcl | yes. |
| 21:42.09 | lkcl | my associates are on the case, there. |
| 21:42.43 | lkcl | they've approached several hypermarkets, and also are talking to some online retailers. |
| 21:42.44 | lkcl | etc. etc. |
| 21:42.55 | lkcl | we have to be able to connect the dots :) |
| 21:43.23 | lkcl | we have all the pieces of the puzzle, but for some daft reason they're still all in the air! |
| 21:43.58 | lkcl | it's ridiculous, and really quite frustrating and/or funny, i'm not sure which |
| 21:44.19 | Baybal | how much of them are Chinese speaking companies? |
| 21:44.35 | lkcl | the OEMs? all of them. |
| 21:44.52 | Baybal | and how much of retailers? |
| 21:45.20 | lkcl | we've found that any companies that are USA-based tend to freak out very very quickly. we learned very early on to totally rule out US-based companies |
| 21:45.40 | lkcl | retailers? one (veeery large) is chinese: the rest are E.U, mostly U.K. |
| 21:46.01 | Baybal | i think the problem may be in fact that people on PRC side of the cable doesn't see a bigger entity behind your company? |
| 21:46.21 | Baybal | if they see all these retail chains, they may consider thinking otherwise |
| 21:46.46 | lkcl | yes... and likewise, until the retailers see an actual product, they're not going to place an order. |
| 21:47.20 | lkcl | this is why it's taking so long: it is a "catch 22" situation, where _somebody_ has to trust what we're saying, enough to commit to it |
| 21:47.29 | lkcl | orrr, we have to break the deadlock by some other way. |
| 21:47.49 | Baybal | what is the name of your company? |
| 21:47.53 | lkcl | which is why i have been endeavouring to engage the FSF, and the arm-netbooks people, and this, and that etc. etc. |
| 21:48.01 | lkcl | rh-technology |
| 21:48.05 | lkcl | it's not "my" company |
| 21:48.10 | Baybal | ok |
| 21:48.27 | lkcl | i'm just associated with it. long story :) |
| 21:48.55 | lkcl | our accountant founded one of the world's top Chartered Accountancy firms |
| 21:48.55 | Baybal | I still used to refer to companies as "yours", "ours" like in Asia |
| 21:49.08 | Baybal | invariably of the post of a worker |
| 21:49.23 | lkcl | ahh - i am less inclined to use personal pronouns. |
| 21:49.58 | lkcl | from programming teams / project management, it's always a bad idea to say "my project", "your code" or "my application"... |
| 21:50.03 | Baybal | how much retailer and distributors have you contacted already, and how much of them are enthusiastic to buy products> |
| 21:50.04 | Baybal | ? |
| 21:50.21 | Baybal | in Asia it's quite different... |
| 21:50.31 | lkcl | ah, that's what my associates are dealing with |
| 21:50.32 | Baybal | shareholders approach etc =D |
| 21:50.53 | lkcl | because they have the contacts (and i don't) |
| 21:50.56 | Baybal | can you inquirer them on their progress? |
| 21:51.41 | lkcl | i know a _little_ bit. mostly it's pretty confidential stuff, so even i get only a few sketchy details (first name not surnames etc.) |
| 21:51.50 | Baybal | ok |
| 21:52.10 | Baybal | just i want to know scales and types of companies |
| 21:52.22 | Baybal | sorry, I will be away cooking next 20 minutes |
| 21:52.40 | lkcl | but, for example: we have one guy who has sold a major online retail electronics company, he made £20m from the sale, and is looking to start again. |
| 21:53.00 | lkcl | he wrote the entire web site (the whole ordering system) himself |
| 21:53.19 | lkcl | so, we are now looking for a suite of products for him, for his next venture. |
| 21:53.58 | lkcl | he will do the same thing again: set up the web site, then get cracking, selling purely online. |
| 21:54.26 | lkcl | our task is to find him 20-30 great products. similar to what ruslan kogan is doing, basically. |
| 21:55.13 | lkcl | ok. |
| 21:55.56 | lkcl | i'll fill in a few more bits, then, and be off to sleep, myself: i'm off at about 3pm tomorrow, back in the evening (will have a bit of time then) |
| 21:56.10 | lkcl | who else... _without_ giving too much away! |
| 21:57.19 | lkcl | one of our associates has a 100% track record of supplying reliable products, for the past 15 years. all the retail stores in the UK, if he phones them up and he says "i have a great product for you", then they will listen. unlike many people - they just dismiss them. |
| 21:57.38 | lkcl | so it's more about "contacts" than it is about anything else. |
| 22:08.37 | lkcl | but... yeah, think about it: the retailers won't buy until the product exists (they used to do design-work, paid for up-front, but got very badly burned) |
| 22:09.22 | lkcl | and even then, they won't pay cash up-front (they used to only pay when the customer bought it!) but _will_ place an order, and a good company can then raise money against that order |
| 22:09.30 | lkcl | especially if it's a credible company |
| 22:10.02 | lkcl | anyway. |
| 22:10.32 | lkcl | enough for now :) |
| 22:14.50 | Baybal | ÑÑ |
| 22:14.52 | Baybal | hi |
| 22:15.53 | Baybal | ok |
| 22:15.57 | Baybal | till tomorrow then |
| 22:47.57 | Baybal | lkcl, can you give me some presentation files? |
| 22:48.14 | Baybal | I have got in touch with with BCIT's SIFE |
| 22:49.11 | Baybal | I'm going to give an in depth explanation of what we were doing on Tuesday |
| 23:02.47 | lkcl | i'm supposed to be gone, already :) |
| 23:03.08 | lkcl | i can send you a techie diagram, also i'll speak to my associate, geoff, and track something down, ok? |
| 23:26.58 | Baybal | ok |