| 00:02.37 | mlester | how do u write to the log with an andoid app |
| 00:03.08 | jbq | android.util.Log |
| 00:03.36 | Laz_ | Log("EJDk") |
| 00:04.13 | neekers | well, i can justify the expense in the hopes of making money off the code i write... |
| 00:04.13 | mlester | thanks :) |
| 00:04.42 | ttuttle | neekers: Money? |
| 00:04.54 | ttuttle | neekers: You can't, like, OWN code, man! You can't CHARGE for it! |
| 00:05.00 | ttuttle | neekers: Code wants to be FREEEEEE, dude! |
| 00:05.03 | neekers | yes, i actually code for money... :o) |
| 00:05.04 | ttuttle | neekers: (j/k) |
| 00:05.23 | ttuttle | neekers: ;-) |
| 00:05.30 | ttuttle | neekers: Whatcha coding, anyway? |
| 00:05.33 | neekers | i have written some pretty popular open source though... |
| 00:05.37 | ttuttle | neekers: Oh? |
| 00:05.42 | neekers | yes |
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| 00:06.39 | neekers | http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=198122 |
| 00:06.50 | neekers | it's been downloaded 50,000 times |
| 00:07.02 | neekers | i'm writing an android client for it right now |
| 00:10.03 | neekers | i'll open source the android client too |
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| 00:12.43 | foobar`` | neekers, have you gotten the maps app to work against the open-source base? |
| 00:13.46 | neekers | foobar: do you mean the android maps app against my open source? |
| 00:14.01 | *** join/#android ralpht (n=ralpht@76-191-208-98.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 00:14.24 | foobar`` | i mean the android maps app against the opensource base OS |
| 00:14.35 | foobar`` | as opposed to the base OS in the last SDK release |
| 00:15.22 | neekers | well, i have the android maps app working on the g1 if that's what you mean |
| 00:15.23 | umdk1d3 | does the binary maps.apk want to be in the same processgroup as the core os? |
| 00:15.43 | umdk1d3 | and because the signing key on the newly built core os is different, it decides to not let maps run |
| 00:15.48 | umdk1d3 | just speculation on my part |
| 00:15.54 | foobar`` | umdk1d3, maybe that's it |
| 00:16.05 | foobar`` | im not too familair with the signing process |
| 00:16.14 | foobar`` | where can i find more info on it/what the restrictions are? |
| 00:16.15 | mlester | hey why is when I try and open a db I its looks for andorid_metadata table |
| 00:16.23 | umdk1d3 | can you unsign an apk and resign it with a new key? |
| 00:16.36 | umdk1d3 | i think its just the signatures in the manifest dir inside the apjk |
| 00:16.38 | dug_ | anyone know of a good beginner's demo of making an android app, like a bouncing balls thing |
| 00:16.45 | neekers | i had quite a challenge getting the maps app working properly on the G1, check out this thread that i started on the google group |
| 00:16.52 | umdk1d3 | might be easy enough to remove the original google sigs on their maps.apk and resign it with your core os key |
| 00:16.59 | neekers | one sec, i'll get the url |
| 00:17.23 | mmattice | how hard would it be to mod the battery icon to show the percentage instead? |
| 00:17.26 | neekers | i have a good understanding of how to sign apps and use the release maps key on the G1 |
| 00:17.42 | foobar`` | Im not sure if I have a core OS key |
| 00:17.48 | foobar`` | unless it automatically generates one |
| 00:18.13 | foobar`` | neekers, wait, isn't maps included on the g1? |
| 00:19.03 | neekers | yes, google maps is included on the g1, but if you want to write your own map app, you have to sign the app with a maps api key |
| 00:19.10 | neekers | and it's a little tricky!!! |
| 00:19.16 | foobar`` | ah ok |
| 00:19.23 | neekers | check out this threead: http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/6212a6e988f1f7f9/ca8e95191531ad8f?hl=en#ca8e95191531ad8f |
| 00:19.43 | mmattice | you have to sign the app with the same key that the maps API key is assigned to, they're not the same key are they? |
| 00:19.46 | umdk1d3 | neekers: thats referring to using the google maps library in a mapview though right? |
| 00:19.47 | neekers | it took me hours to figure out what i was doing wrong |
| 00:20.18 | umdk1d3 | ohhhhh maybe the core google maps apk uses an api key internally that only works with their signature :/ |
| 00:20.30 | *** join/#android trigatch4 (n=robjacks@c-68-33-22-200.hsd1.md.comcast.net) |
| 00:20.38 | umdk1d3 | trigatch4: ^.^ |
| 00:20.39 | neekers | no, you have to create your own keys |
| 00:20.48 | neekers | on the G1 |
| 00:20.48 | trigatch4 | umdk1d3 ? |
| 00:20.58 | umdk1d3 | mr. phandroid? |
| 00:21.03 | trigatch4 | yeah whats up? |
| 00:21.19 | umdk1d3 | lol didnt realize you came around these parts :) |
| 00:21.22 | trigatch4 | ha |
| 00:21.35 | umdk1d3 | you idle here often? |
| 00:21.37 | trigatch4 | i've been popping in consistently since about 9 months ago or so |
| 00:21.47 | trigatch4 | yeah i idle here a decent amount |
| 00:21.48 | umdk1d3 | oh cool, i never connected the nick with you |
| 00:21.53 | trigatch4 | yup |
| 00:21.56 | trigatch4 | thats me |
| 00:22.04 | mlester | when I do this: myDB = SQLiteDatabase.openDatabase("/sdcard/bbe.db",null,SQLiteDatabase.OPEN_READONLY); I get this : no such table: android_metadata |
| 00:22.06 | trigatch4 | what should i "connect" with umdk1d3? |
| 00:22.14 | trigatch4 | and how did you connect me while i wasn't here? |
| 00:22.15 | trigatch4 | haha |
| 00:22.29 | umdk1d3 | your "name" is in your joinstring |
| 00:22.37 | trigatch4 | ah gotchya |
| 00:23.51 | mmattice | so, is that an I don't know? |
| 00:26.06 | umdk1d3 | hmm tar is giving me a "short read" error |
| 00:26.10 | mlester | do I need to supply as cursor factory? |
| 00:26.50 | gdsx | umdk1d3: for what file? |
| 00:28.05 | umdk1d3 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:28.57 | gdsx | umdk1d3: err... huh? where'd you get this tarball? |
| 00:29.12 | gdsx | I think sysfs falls under "things that you don't really want to tar" |
| 00:29.13 | ironfroggy_ | are there underlying filesystem APIs exposed that could allow implementing something like NFS or windows file sharing? maybe even mounting over ssh? |
| 00:29.21 | umdk1d3 | lol true |
| 00:29.37 | waldo_ | is back (gone 00:52:33) |
| 00:29.48 | waldo_ | back :) |
| 00:29.55 | gdsx | waldo_: hey; could you turn your away/back script off, please? |
| 00:30.15 | waldo_ | yeh yeah |
| 00:30.15 | waldo_ | okay |
| 00:30.17 | gdsx | thanks |
| 00:30.32 | waldo_ | it's off |
| 00:30.41 | gambler | no more "Wheres Waldo" |
| 00:30.45 | waldo_ | :) |
| 00:31.05 | waldo_ | so question for the group-- I have a 5v2a GPS car charger w/ups (for one of those Tom Tom things) can I safely use it w/the g1? |
| 00:31.21 | waldo_ | ups? I meant usb |
| 00:31.22 | mlester | is it possible to open a sqlite database from the sdcard or does android prevent it |
| 00:31.53 | zhobbs | waldo_: I think USB should always be a 5v connector |
| 00:32.01 | zhobbs | but don't take my word for it :) |
| 00:32.06 | ironfroggy_ | im hoping to avoid keeping media files on my actual device, both because i always have a connection of course and there isn't enough room anyway. |
| 00:32.48 | zhobbs | mlester: should be possible, I've opened them from my /data/data/<package> folder before...not sure why you shouldn't be able to hit the /sdcard |
| 00:33.26 | gambler | ironfroggy_, A developer on this channel has written a media player for that exact reason. |
| 00:33.31 | gambler | ironfroggy_, google Five |
| 00:33.40 | waldo_ | zhobbs maybe I'll risk my phone on it :) |
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| 00:33.58 | trigatch4 | Has anybody here used the "Service Viewer" application on the Android Market? |
| 00:34.02 | ironfroggy_ | id love to just mount a remote volume for any app to access, too. but thats great. |
| 00:34.09 | mlester | zhobbs: I think I can but I get this error about not finding andoid_metadata table so I think it needs that to open it |
| 00:34.27 | zhobbs | trigatch4: yeah |
| 00:34.41 | trigatch4 | zhobbs: tunewiki review tomorrow but i had a few questions |
| 00:35.00 | zhobbs | ok |
| 00:35.00 | gambler | ironfroggy_, I imagine most apps wont be bad enough that you will need to browse the filesystem. |
| 00:35.11 | waldo_ | is this the five? http://www.androiddownload.org/download-android-five-alpha-streaming-application/ |
| 00:35.30 | zhobbs | waldo_: yeah |
| 00:35.39 | trigatch4 | zhobbs: on service viewer, can you explain the technical difference between "Services" and "Task" as far as the OS goes and whether, technically speaking, you could add the functionality to "kill" a service or task? |
| 00:35.40 | waldo_ | what does it use on the server side to stream? |
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| 00:36.04 | romainguy_ | trigatch4: youcan't kill tasks and/or services (or processes) from an app |
| 00:36.17 | umdk1d3 | waldo_: there is a custom server that runs on your desktop |
| 00:36.43 | waldo_ | ah... it would be cool if it could use avahi or something.. :) |
| 00:36.48 | trigatch4 | romainguy_: what is the definition of a "service" and "task" relative to android - excuse my programming ignorance |
| 00:36.49 | waldo_ | umdk1d3: is this your app? |
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| 00:36.57 | trigatch4 | jasta's app waldo |
| 00:36.58 | umdk1d3 | waldo_: no lol, thats jasta |
| 00:37.01 | waldo_ | ah |
| 00:37.05 | romainguy_ | trigatch4: service is basically a background application |
| 00:37.05 | ironfroggy_ | this Five app isn't available packaged? and it requires its own server? |
| 00:37.24 | romainguy_ | trigatch4: a task is a set of activities from one or more processes |
| 00:37.24 | umdk1d3 | ironfroggy_: its still under heavy dev right now |
| 00:37.37 | romainguy_ | trigatch4: an activity is more or less a screen within an application |
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| 00:37.52 | romainguy_ | I'm sure there's a doc somewhere describing all this more clearly and more precisely :)) |
| 00:38.23 | trigatch4 | thanks man, much appreciated |
| 00:38.39 | ironfroggy_ | i do really want to do some dev here, and id probably be easier to contribute to something than go from scratch. |
| 00:38.53 | romainguy_ | trigatch4: http://code.google.com/android/intro/appmodel.html |
| 00:38.57 | ironfroggy_ | and since this is one of the first things i was after actually having a device in my hands.. |
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| 00:46.56 | mlester | man this sqlitedatabase thing is driving me crazy I can't open the db in my app but if I open a shell to the emul and start sqlite3 then I can access that data |
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| 01:00.24 | DJTachyon | whew time for another repo sync |
| 01:01.01 | DJTachyon | now that I have my Ubuntu Intrepid VM Up and running :) |
| 01:01.17 | wastrel | hi i have intrepid |
| 01:01.44 | DJTachyon | aloo |
| 01:02.05 | DJTachyon | actually I have Kubuntu Intrepid ;) |
| 01:02.06 | d0net2 | hey im trying to install five |
| 01:02.10 | d0net2 | i am so close |
| 01:02.12 | d0net2 | Embedded error: ANDROID-040-001: Could not execute: Command = /bin/sh -c "cd /home/hebs/five-read-only/five-client && aidl -I/home/hebs/five-read-only/five-client/src /home/hebs/five-read-only/five-client/src/org/devtcg/five/service/ICacheService.aidl /home/hebs/five-read-only/five-client/target/generated-sources/org/devtcg/five/service/ICacheService.java", Result = 1 |
| 01:02.26 | d0net2 | i get that when i do $ mvn -Dmasa.debug=true install |
| 01:02.36 | DJTachyon | put in five and get one back eh? |
| 01:02.36 | d0net2 | any ideas? |
| 01:05.57 | DJTachyon | lol just found bitpim in the dev app list .. i used that on my Motorola E815 :P |
| 01:08.11 | languish | heya DannyB |
| 01:09.06 | mlester | man why didn't u guys tell i Just needed to use the NO_LOCALIZED_COLLATORS flagt |
| 01:09.49 | languish | I was wondering.. I saw the branding page... and it restricts the use of naming apps with a derivation of Android. What how is that going to be handled with so many apps being named "Andthisorthat" and "whateverDroid" ? |
| 01:11.10 | wastrel | iono |
| 01:12.20 | DJTachyon | wow i just happened to look at the size of the android repo sync |
| 01:12.59 | DJTachyon | a mere 1.5GB & 70000 files :) |
| 01:13.02 | ttuttle | grr, i wish connectbot didn't steal the volume keys. |
| 01:13.24 | wastrel | what does it use them for? |
| 01:13.30 | ttuttle | font size |
| 01:13.35 | wastrel | cute |
| 01:14.02 | ttuttle | it's cute, but i irc and listen to music, and i want to be able to change the volume too! |
| 01:15.14 | wastrel | submit a patch :] |
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| 01:16.01 | languish | a software volume overlay :D |
| 01:16.07 | languish | +control |
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| 01:21.36 | DJTachyon | well my first make attempt on ubuntu failed |
| 01:23.19 | *** join/#android jbq (n=jbq@72.14.224.1) |
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| 01:24.30 | VJTachyon | hmm.. /bin/bash: prebuilt/linux-x86/toolchain/arm-eabi-4.2.1/bin/arm-eabi-gcc: No such file or directory |
| 01:24.36 | foobar`` | how can DNS still br broken after a week |
| 01:27.14 | VJTachyon | anybody know where or what that is |
| 01:27.20 | foobar`` | it's there |
| 01:27.24 | foobar`` | check |
| 01:28.42 | VJTachyon | thanks .. |
| 01:28.57 | VJTachyon | ? |
| 01:29.33 | foobar`` | ? |
| 01:29.36 | foobar`` | the file is there |
| 01:29.37 | foobar`` | isn't it |
| 01:29.41 | VJTachyon | also: |
| 01:29.43 | VJTachyon | /usr/include/gnu/stubs.h:7:27: error: gnu/stubs-32.h: No such file or directory |
| 01:29.44 | VJTachyon | make: *** [out/host/linux-x86/obj/EXECUTABLES/acp_intermediates/acp.o] Error 1 |
| 01:29.51 | foobar`` | oh |
| 01:30.02 | foobar`` | you don't have a 32-bit development env |
| 01:30.07 | VJTachyon | uh oh |
| 01:30.09 | foobar`` | did you install an AMD64 ubuntu? |
| 01:30.14 | VJTachyon | hehehe nooooooooooooo~ |
| 01:30.18 | VJTachyon | yes. |
| 01:30.19 | foobar`` | if you're using a VM you should have probably just installed 32bit |
| 01:30.27 | VJTachyon | lol good lord |
| 01:30.29 | foobar`` | i got it to build on amd64 |
| 01:30.31 | VJTachyon | i can't win today |
| 01:30.33 | foobar`` | it was a bunch of work though |
| 01:30.41 | foobar`` | some of the 32-bit dev packages are broken |
| 01:30.47 | foobar`` | and some symlinks are missing |
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| 01:30.52 | VJTachyon | okie dokie guess im off to delete this VM |
| 01:31.03 | foobar`` | i think you need to manually add symlinks for libX11.so and libz.so |
| 01:31.12 | foobar`` | in /usr/lib32 |
| 01:31.20 | foobar`` | but yeah maybe just easier to make a 32-bit vm |
| 01:31.28 | VJTachyon | yeah who knows what else ill run into |
| 01:31.42 | VJTachyon | okay im gonna kill this VM ... |
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| 01:32.10 | DJTachyon | bah |
| 01:32.10 | anechoic | just install the 32-bit build chain |
| 01:32.14 | hank | test |
| 01:32.16 | anechoic | or that |
| 01:32.27 | DJTachyon | install the 32-bit build chain? |
| 01:33.04 | DJTachyon | how may i go about that then? |
| 01:33.54 | foobar`` | anechoic, there are soem problems with it |
| 01:34.13 | anechoic | just a sec, playing with aptitude on someone else's 64 bit install |
| 01:34.18 | foobar`` | for some reason it looks for unversioned .so files |
| 01:34.18 | anechoic | what problems? |
| 01:34.21 | solca | hi, I get this when compiling the source with a self cross compiler, any idea: |
| 01:34.22 | solca | frameworks/base/libs/utils/CallStack.cpp:75: error: '_Unwind_Backtrace' was not declared in this scope |
| 01:34.24 | foobar`` | even if you install all the correct packages |
| 01:34.39 | foobar`` | you need to manually add some symlinks |
| 01:34.46 | foobar`` | here |
| 01:34.47 | anechoic | so, not problems with gcc -m32 on Hardy/Intrepid, right? |
| 01:34.51 | foobar`` | yes |
| 01:34.55 | foobar`` | on hardy at least |
| 01:34.57 | foobar`` | install all the packages |
| 01:35.02 | foobar`` | and try to compile hello world with |
| 01:35.05 | foobar`` | gcc -m32 -lz hello.c |
| 01:35.11 | foobar`` | it will fail |
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| 01:35.20 | foobar`` | since it's looking for an unversioned libz.so |
| 01:35.29 | foobar`` | and the only thing in /lib32 is a libz.so.1 |
| 01:35.41 | foobar`` | there's a few things like that |
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| 01:38.59 | d0net2 | hey if i got five music to build and work in the emulator |
| 01:39.04 | d0net2 | how do i get it on my phone? |
| 01:39.51 | DJTachyon | as an apk? |
| 01:39.54 | anechoic | $ dpkg -c lib32z1-dev_1%3a1.2.3.3.dfsg-7ubuntu1_amd64.deb |
| 01:39.54 | anechoic | -rw-r--r-- root/root 90374 2007-11-15 07:12 ./usr/lib32/libz.a |
| 01:39.54 | anechoic | lrwxrwxrwx root/root 0 2007-11-15 07:12 ./usr/lib32/libz.so -> libz.so.1.2.3.3 |
| 01:40.10 | anechoic | I don't think you need to add the symlink |
| 01:40.23 | DJTachyon | d0net2: you can always just post the apk on the web and download it with the browser on the phone :) |
| 01:40.44 | thoraxe | does twidroid really put "twidroid for" in front of everything??? |
| 01:41.22 | d0net2 | djtachyon |
| 01:41.25 | d0net2 | yea thats my prolem |
| 01:41.27 | d0net2 | im newb |
| 01:41.34 | d0net2 | and this is the first i have REALLY dont anything with android |
| 01:41.38 | d0net2 | how do i go about making the apk |
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| 01:42.13 | michaelnovakjr_ | you need to build for release and sign it |
| 01:42.35 | michaelnovakjr_ | http://code.google.com/android/devel/sign-publish.html |
| 01:43.59 | DJTachyon | oops sorry got distracted |
| 01:44.02 | DJTachyon | yeah that |
| 01:44.04 | foobar`` | anechoic, oh, I guess you're right |
| 01:44.11 | foobar`` | I remember searching for that package |
| 01:44.17 | foobar`` | oh well |
| 01:44.18 | DJTachyon | meh i have run into too many x64 issues |
| 01:44.30 | anechoic | DJTachyon: aptitude is your friend |
| 01:44.38 | DJTachyon | indeed |
| 01:44.52 | DJTachyon | and so is all the other stuff im working on ;) |
| 01:45.30 | DJTachyon | all this stuff is so much higher level than im used to .. i do embedded procedural C for DSPs and HDL |
| 01:47.08 | anechoic | apt-get install fftw-dev |
| 01:47.12 | anechoic | j/k, :-) |
| 01:47.50 | DJTachyon | woo :P |
| 01:48.14 | DJTachyon | motor control actually but yea |
| 01:48.15 | anechoic | gcc-multilib should pull most stuff in when you install it, especially if you go through the "suggests" in aptitude |
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| 01:48.55 | AlekseyKorzun | Is there a web site to view all updates to market? |
| 01:48.57 | anechoic | no RF? :-( |
| 01:49.01 | AlekseyKorzun | My phone doesn't show latest applications |
| 01:49.12 | AlekseyKorzun | I have to use search to find them |
| 01:49.42 | cbeust | AlekseyKorzun: no, you can only see it on the phone for now |
| 01:49.50 | cbeust | Just select to show the applications by date |
| 01:49.57 | cbeust | you'll see the most recently uploaded at the top |
| 01:50.26 | anechoic | or you can scrap the VM like you originally suggested, it might be less headache in the long run |
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| 01:51.17 | anechoic | or I can dig around on this other 64-bit machine and try the stuff for you, I'm sure its owner won't mind |
| 01:52.01 | foobar`` | I'll send you a PM with all my packages with 32 in them |
| 01:52.03 | anechoic | plays with aptitude on mmattice's work machine... |
| 01:52.09 | d03boy | nobody fear, i am here |
| 01:52.28 | languish | ut oh, there goes the neighborhood |
| 01:52.32 | languish | :| |
| 01:52.52 | d03boy | eek |
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| 01:55.45 | languish | hmm this mshare app reminds me. lastnight i wanted to send a file from my g1 directly to my wife's G1, much as you would a song with the zune. I wonder if that functionality is possible with the current android version, and if anyone's working on it already |
| 01:56.03 | d03boy | bt? |
| 01:56.12 | languish | bt or wifi |
| 01:56.18 | wastrel | hrm |
| 01:56.22 | wastrel | ad hoc wifi? |
| 01:56.30 | languish | wifi would have to auto establish an ad hoc connection |
| 01:56.52 | languish | seek out other g1's sharing using the same app with it enabled |
| 01:57.41 | languish | damn that's a kinky thought.. 69 dhcp |
| 01:58.08 | languish | let's exchange ip's baby |
| 01:58.10 | languish | :| |
| 01:58.32 | foobar`` | 'ia32-libs, lib32asound2, lib32gcc1, lib32gomp1, lib32mudflap0, lib32ncurses5, lib32ncurses5-dev, lib32nss-mdns, lib32stdc++6, lib32z1, lib32z1-dev, libdns32, libisc32, mingw32, mingw32-binutils, mingw32-runtime' |
| 01:58.41 | foobar`` | those are all my packages with 32 in the name |
| 01:58.46 | foobar`` | so you need those |
| 01:59.09 | foobar`` | and g++-multilib, gcc-multilib |
| 01:59.39 | foobar`` | and libc6-dev-i386 |
| 02:06.26 | d0net2 | hey i found these apks |
| 02:06.38 | d0net2 | but when i put them on my storage card and try to open them it says file reading not supported |
| 02:06.52 | ttuttle | d0net2: How are you opening them? |
| 02:07.02 | d0net2 | clicking them and clicking open |
| 02:07.08 | ttuttle | d0net2: Where? |
| 02:07.16 | d0net2 | i put them in my download folder |
| 02:07.20 | d0net2 | on my sd card |
| 02:07.22 | ttuttle | d0net2: Are you talking about on the G1? |
| 02:07.26 | d0net2 | yea |
| 02:07.27 | *** join/#android oyeoj (i=jourmom@unicron.plik.net) |
| 02:07.33 | ttuttle | d0net2: Oh, the web server needs the .apk MIME type set up properly. |
| 02:07.45 | d0net2 | explain for a newb |
| 02:07.57 | ttuttle | d0net2: You can't fix it. |
| 02:08.04 | d0net2 | awww crap |
| 02:08.18 | d0net2 | i just spent like 5 hours getting it working in the emu |
| 02:08.31 | *** part/#android AlekseyKorzun (n=Aleksey_@pool-71-183-180-218.nycmny.east.verizon.net) |
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| 02:12.59 | *** join/#android exman (n=exman@61.107.31.52) |
| 02:14.16 | exman | is there any chm or devhelp for android ? |
| 02:15.24 | languish | ask in here |
| 02:15.39 | wastrel | what's chm? |
| 02:15.46 | exman | android API Document |
| 02:16.03 | gambler | its a special format for MCSE |
| 02:16.27 | exman | i want chm or devhelp format |
| 02:17.12 | languish | exman, grab the info off code.google and convert it to .chmhttp://code.google.com/android/documentation.html then |
| 02:17.51 | exman | thankyou~ |
| 02:17.51 | languish | likely you can use a crawler that converts to chm |
| 02:18.14 | languish | just remember to set the threads low |
| 02:18.23 | languish | and limit the transfer rate |
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| 02:24.42 | DJTachyon | gnight all |
| 02:25.06 | languish | o/ |
| 02:25.25 | languish | goes to see if there'll be a hamachi app for g1 |
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| 02:30.59 | neekers | . |
| 02:32.29 | d03boy | . |
| 02:34.12 | wastrel | chm is a file format for windows help files |
| 02:34.55 | d03boy | its just compressed html |
| 02:35.05 | exman | actually i want devhelp format. :-) (for ubuntu) |
| 02:35.32 | *** join/#android disappearedng (n=disappea@bas4-kitchener06-1167937425.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 02:35.35 | disappearedng | hi everyone |
| 02:35.39 | disappearedng | hi everyone |
| 02:36.47 | summatusmentis | i |
| 02:36.52 | summatusmentis | hi* |
| 02:36.58 | d03boy | ih |
| 02:37.31 | disappearedng | How do I simply get a GPS location for testing? |
| 02:37.56 | disappearedng | I m getting error for the following: Double latPoint = myManager.getLastKnownLocation("gps").getLatitude(); |
| 02:37.59 | *** join/#android annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda) |
| 02:38.00 | *** join/#android lresende (n=luckbr19@c-67-169-36-7.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 02:38.24 | d03boy | what is the error |
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| 02:40.08 | neekers | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:40.12 | neekers | try that |
| 02:40.20 | disappearedng | D/LocationManager( 230): Constructor: service = android.location.ILocationManager$Stub$Proxy@433734f0 |
| 02:40.20 | disappearedng | D/AndroidRuntime( 230): Shutting down VM |
| 02:40.20 | disappearedng | W/dalvikvm( 230): threadid=3: thread exiting with uncaught exception (group=0x40010e28) |
| 02:40.20 | disappearedng | E/AndroidRuntime( 230): Uncaught handler: thread main exiting due to uncaught exception |
| 02:40.20 | disappearedng | E/AndroidRuntime( 230): java.lang.NullPointerException |
| 02:40.29 | d03boy | wow. Use a pastebin |
| 02:40.34 | disappearedng | Oh sorry |
| 02:41.13 | neekers | disappearedng: did you see my post? |
| 02:41.15 | waldo_ | umdk1d3 is famous http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/blogspot/hsDu/~3/435175125/stories-behind-apps.html |
| 02:41.22 | disappearedng | http://pastebin.com/d16191a5a |
| 02:43.38 | disappearedng | How do I getLatitude on GeoPoint |
| 02:43.54 | d03boy | anyone know of screenshots for every layout by chance? |
| 02:44.42 | disappearedng | Ok I checked the API |
| 02:44.59 | romainguy | d03boy: they would not help you much |
| 02:45.06 | romainguy | there are not many layouts in the platform |
| 02:45.10 | romainguy | and what they do is very simple |
| 02:45.47 | d03boy | im just looking for a horizontal list of some sort |
| 02:45.54 | romainguy | LinearLayout |
| 02:45.57 | romainguy | or Gallery |
| 02:46.09 | d03boy | i need it to scroll though |
| 02:46.21 | d03boy | can I put buttons in a gallery? |
| 02:46.25 | romainguy | anything you want |
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| 02:46.30 | d03boy | ok i'll try that |
| 02:46.55 | romainguy | note that horizontal scrolling list are a bit awkward to use on the G1 |
| 02:47.12 | romainguy | the horizontal scrolling gesture is a bit less natural than vertical scrolling |
| 02:47.36 | d03boy | romainguy, does it let you 'pull' it? |
| 02:47.52 | romainguy | what do you mean? |
| 02:48.01 | d03boy | can you scroll by 'flicking' it or whatever |
| 02:48.07 | disappearedng | can anyone tell him how to find the current GPS Location? I am getting an error for Double latPoint = myManager.getLastKnownLocation("gps").getLatitude(); |
| 02:48.29 | romainguy | d03boy: yeah, that's why I'm talking about when I say it's less natural than vertical scrolling |
| 02:48.37 | languish | d03boy, install the task switcher app to see what it looks like |
| 02:48.51 | languish | (and how it functions) |
| 02:48.58 | d03boy | i dont actually have a g1 |
| 02:49.05 | *** join/#android jbq (n=jbq@72.14.224.1) |
| 02:49.05 | romainguy | look at the apidemos |
| 02:49.07 | d03boy | i'll see if I can get it on the emulator |
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| 02:51.59 | *** join/#android rjaym (n=rjm@c-24-16-21-112.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 02:52.01 | gambler | umdk1d3, where do you get that pricing info for local stores? seems like that is not in their interest to publish that |
| 02:52.28 | rjaym | is there a simple way to close the current application? |
| 02:52.33 | gambler | learned about stateful drawables |
| 02:53.09 | *** join/#android BBHoss_ (n=bbhoss@c-68-62-170-33.hsd1.al.comcast.net) |
| 02:53.33 | trigatch4 | any google staffers here? |
| 02:53.42 | romainguy | yes |
| 02:53.49 | wastrel | google. |
| 02:54.15 | trigatch4 | hey romainguy, so... do you know a "Robin" from Android Operations team at Google? |
| 02:54.21 | *** join/#android murlidhar (n=murlidha@59.93.117.15) |
| 02:55.12 | d03boy | how's the battery life on these beasts? |
| 02:55.19 | trigatch4 | romainguy: on AndroidForums.com we talked about having some Android T-Shirts made and sticking them on CafePress... just because members want the shirts and there isn't really an easier way to go about it |
| 02:55.49 | trigatch4 | she basically said we shouldn't... and I can understand why |
| 02:56.02 | d03boy | at the top of the android market app, there is a scrolling thing. Is that a gallery? |
| 02:56.09 | trigatch4 | but wondering if theres any way to find a coupla "freebies" to give away in a contest or something? |
| 02:56.34 | summatusmentis | trigatch4: umm... couldn't be that google owns the copyright to android... |
| 02:56.36 | jcanfield_ | d03boy, depends,what you are doing with it.. I'm barely making it through the day on a battery. |
| 02:56.37 | *** join/#android cfreak201 (n=cfreak20@p4FDB43DF.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 02:56.39 | romainguy | trigatch4: you should contact the advocates, look for Jason Chen or Dan Morrill (morrilldl) |
| 02:56.50 | d03boy | jcanfield_, do you talk on it much? |
| 02:57.09 | jcanfield_ | average about 30 minutes talking. |
| 02:57.22 | d03boy | not surprising |
| 02:57.30 | wastrel | where do i go to file a bug for the contacts app? |
| 02:57.37 | d03boy | i can talk on my razr for about 20 seconds and it's dead these days |
| 02:57.40 | romainguy | code.google.com/p/android/issues |
| 02:57.47 | jcanfield_ | wifi seems to really seems to suck the juice. |
| 02:57.47 | trigatch4 | thanks romainguy |
| 02:58.02 | romainguy | it also depends a lot on the apps you use |
| 02:58.04 | wastrel | already logged :[ |
| 02:58.06 | wastrel | i am too slow! |
| 02:58.26 | spikebike | turning off 3g helps alot |
| 02:59.04 | d03boy | anyone know if the market app has the gallery at the top? is that a gallery? |
| 02:59.07 | jcanfield_ | d03boy, and playing media is scary. I ripped a movie and not sure it will play a 2 hour movie on one charge. |
| 02:59.11 | d03boy | thats exactly what I need |
| 02:59.23 | romainguy | d03boy: that's a gallery |
| 02:59.30 | spikebike | d03boy that sounds like the market application |
| 02:59.42 | d03boy | jcanfield_, eh, oh well. phones arent made for movies :) |
| 02:59.58 | foobar`` | romainguy, is anyone actively working on the DNS issue? |
| 03:00.03 | romainguy | what DNS issue? |
| 03:00.10 | jcanfield_ | d03boy, haha. |
| 03:00.20 | foobar`` | internet on the emulator hasn't ever worked since release |
| 03:00.21 | jbq | DNS is broken the version that we released. |
| 03:00.26 | foobar`` | ah jbq |
| 03:00.36 | jbq | Issue 996. |
| 03:00.41 | foobar`` | yeah, the one you filed |
| 03:00.54 | rjaym | This is rediculous that I can't close chrome lite |
| 03:01.02 | romainguy | chrome lite? |
| 03:01.04 | *** join/#android dragonball_ (n=dragonba@unaffiliated/dragonball) |
| 03:01.23 | rjaym | whatever the g1 browser is, I heard it was chrome lite |
| 03:01.27 | romainguy | it's not |
| 03:01.33 | ttuttle | romainguy++ |
| 03:01.38 | romainguy | and what do you mean you cannot close it? |
| 03:01.41 | ttuttle | is so sick of it being called "Chrome Lite". |
| 03:01.42 | romainguy | why do you want to close it? |
| 03:01.59 | ttuttle | rjaym: Notice how it is called "Browser" in the launcher. |
| 03:02.01 | rjaym | I want to close it because it's on my t-mobile account page |
| 03:02.14 | ttuttle | rjaym: So just go to a different page. |
| 03:02.16 | rjaym | and I don't want to keep that up |
| 03:02.22 | ttuttle | rjaym: It doesn't "stay open", it just remembers what page you were on. |
| 03:02.24 | romainguy | rjaym: Menu > Windows close the window |
| 03:03.02 | rjaym | why should I jump to another page when I want to close my current one, I'm not interested in another page, I'm interested in clearing out my phone's current memory usage |
| 03:03.14 | romainguy | Menu > Windows |
| 03:03.14 | murlidhar | has linux been ever ported to sony ericsson w910i like phones ? |
| 03:03.15 | romainguy | also |
| 03:03.19 | foobar`` | jbq, do you have any idea what it might be? |
| 03:03.23 | romainguy | you don't have to "clear the phone's memory usage" |
| 03:03.30 | romainguy | the system takes care of that for you |
| 03:03.31 | ttuttle | rjaym: It will kill things when it needs memory. |
| 03:03.37 | jbq | foobar``: it's low enough that it affects multiple applications. |
| 03:03.40 | *** join/#android matt_c (n=mcroydon@137.147.45.66.cm.sunflower.com) |
| 03:03.43 | d03boy | i cant seem to find an example for a view xml file for gallery :( |
| 03:03.43 | romainguy | you are guaranteed to always have the amount of RAM you need to run the application you are using |
| 03:03.57 | romainguy | d03boy: look at the ApiDemos like I said before |
| 03:04.00 | romainguy | that's what they're for |
| 03:04.03 | foobar`` | yeah uh it affects everything |
| 03:04.03 | ttuttle | romainguy: /me loves that bit ;-) |
| 03:04.07 | d03boy | romainguy, i'm on it. I only see a .java file |
| 03:04.14 | jbq | foobar``: don't know if it's the native or interpreted code, don't know if it's the emulator, the kernel or user-space. |
| 03:04.15 | romainguy | d03boy: there are .xml files in res/ |
| 03:04.20 | d03boy | oh, no wonder |
| 03:04.27 | foobar`` | jbq, is there any document describing the emulator's networking stack? |
| 03:04.36 | *** join/#android Goosey (n=Goosey@cpe-67-9-174-97.austin.res.rr.com) |
| 03:05.01 | foobar`` | jbq, it doesn't look like there's a resolv.conf in /system/etc in either this version or the working old version |
| 03:05.12 | foobar`` | so it does something else.. |
| 03:05.27 | *** join/#android zodttd_ (n=me@user-142gtg7.cable.mindspring.com) |
| 03:05.59 | rjaym | it just seems rediculous that they even let you set the home page of the browser when you'll never navigate back to it.. ever.. |
| 03:06.04 | rjaym | ridiculous* |
| 03:06.17 | plusminus_ | In the device-settings we can enable "Audible Selection". Can we en/disable such stuff using code ? |
| 03:06.22 | romainguy | rjaym: ?? |
| 03:07.02 | plusminus_ | with WRITE_SETTINGS ? |
| 03:07.08 | romainguy | probably |
| 03:07.15 | romainguy | why do you want your app to change a system setting? |
| 03:07.28 | foobar`` | is there a way I can change libc and then just rebuild one thing |
| 03:07.29 | foobar`` | like ping |
| 03:07.33 | foobar`` | instead of having it rebuild the entire system |
| 03:07.53 | rjaym | well yes it's true I could search+space to get to my home page, or go to it going through 2 menus, but it seems intrinsic to me that I should be able to close any browser when I'm done using it, and upon opening it up again, expect my new home page to show up |
| 03:07.58 | plusminus_ | romainguy: I want to enabled that Audible-Selection programatically |
| 03:08.14 | romainguy | rjaym: that's not how apps work on Android |
| 03:08.15 | romainguy | period |
| 03:08.21 | romainguy | plusminus_: sure, but why? |
| 03:08.31 | romainguy | plusminus_: I'd be really pissed at your app if it did that :)) |
| 03:08.42 | ttuttle | seconds that. |
| 03:08.55 | plusminus_ | romainguy: because of the permission or the sound-feedback ? |
| 03:08.56 | ttuttle | Unless I give your { app, web page, email, ... } permission to make noise, it damn well better not. |
| 03:09.03 | romainguy | plusminus_: because of the sound feedback |
| 03:09.29 | plusminus_ | when using my navigation app I want to give the user a possibility to get feedback without looking at the screen. |
| 03:09.42 | romainguy | then you should just launch the settings activity |
| 03:09.45 | romainguy | or even the settings page |
| 03:10.00 | romainguy | it seems that enabling *system wide* audible selection for your app is *not* the right way to do it |
| 03:10.06 | ttuttle | plusminus_: Consider having your app actually read back the titles, instead of just making clicks. |
| 03:10.12 | ttuttle | plusminus_: That's probably more useful to your users. |
| 03:10.21 | ttuttle | plusminus_: You could probably extend ListView to do that. |
| 03:10.27 | plusminus_ | ttuttle: A TTS would be fine for that |
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| 03:10.39 | ttuttle | plusminus_: Yeah. |
| 03:10.54 | plusminus_ | btw why has it been removed from th emarket :/ |
| 03:11.08 | ttuttle | plusminus_: Which is this? |
| 03:11.27 | plusminus_ | there had been a T2S library while the market was not yet public |
| 03:11.33 | ttuttle | plusminus_: Oh. |
| 03:11.35 | romainguy | because the market was reset |
| 03:11.42 | romainguy | I guess whoever put it there didn't put it back |
| 03:11.50 | ttuttle | plusminus_: Protip: "libraries" *really* confuse people. You're likely to get a 1-star rating because it "doesn't do anything". |
| 03:11.59 | romainguy | like Radar |
| 03:12.09 | ttuttle | plusminus_: You should try to find a way to avoid that. |
| 03:12.16 | ttuttle | plusminus_: I'm not sure how. |
| 03:12.24 | plusminus_ | ttuttle: me too ^^ |
| 03:12.40 | plusminus_ | T2S should be a part of the android core |
| 03:12.43 | plusminus_ | or api |
| 03:13.03 | romainguy | that's debatable |
| 03:13.22 | plusminus_ | imo it would enrich many apps |
| 03:13.27 | plusminus_ | and decrease file-sizes |
| 03:13.55 | wastrel | what's t2s? |
| 03:14.02 | plusminus_ | half of my AndNav2 is currently painfully pad mp3s |
| 03:14.06 | plusminus_ | text-2-speech |
| 03:14.24 | plusminus_ | ... I'm mean half of the apk size |
| 03:15.53 | Goosey | the market reaaaaaaaaaaly needs a seperate 'library' category and a way for apps to specify librarys they require in a way that the market will auto-fetch them if possible |
| 03:16.15 | romainguy | there is one |
| 03:16.16 | Goosey | Otherwise I totally agree, they just confuse end users and result in people not understanding how to use your app |
| 03:16.34 | *** join/#android Bonkz (n=bonks@ip70-162-41-192.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 03:16.37 | romainguy | "Software libraries" |
| 03:16.53 | Goosey | Yea, but it is under "Applications" |
| 03:17.30 | Goosey | which doesn't really make sense to me? and many users (inc myself) havn't even looked at categories, just the 'all' view |
| 03:17.43 | *** join/#android armooo (n=armooo@c-76-24-254-10.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 03:18.07 | tsunami | in regards to registering for location updates from LocationManager, it looks to me like the manager registers an alarm with the AlarmManager. does that alarm wakeup the device on sleep to run location update code? |
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| 03:24.10 | plusminus_ | romainguy: could you give me a hint on how to start a specific settings-page programatically ? |
| 03:25.37 | spikebike | or even toggle a specific setting, like say turning wifi on |
| 03:25.56 | plusminus_ | spikebike: yep that would be fine too |
| 03:26.06 | spikebike | I've been pondering writing a itty bittly little ap that toggles 3g, wifi, and bluetooth |
| 03:26.13 | spikebike | stores it's state in it's icon |
| 03:26.20 | spikebike | i.e. wifi-on icon |
| 03:26.21 | unix_infidel | spikebike: heh, you stole my idea. |
| 03:26.32 | spikebike | you click it, it looks at the icon, turns wifi off, and swaps the icon |
| 03:26.36 | d03boy | have you guys been able to keep a consistent connection? Does 3g flake out at all? |
| 03:26.57 | spikebike | that way you waste zero bytes of ram |
| 03:27.19 | spikebike | and with the virtual desktop there's plenty of room for a tiny icon with a red/green light or something |
| 03:27.37 | wastrel | i think i have good battery life @ home because i'm like a block from a cell tower |
| 03:27.38 | spikebike | unix_infidel I've written zero lines of code, so don't let me stop ya |
| 03:27.59 | spikebike | d03 I've not noticed any... I don't spend a ton of time in 3g aras though |
| 03:28.00 | unix_infidel | spikebike: nah, I've had this idea for a long time, just havent bothered to write it :-P |
| 03:28.24 | spikebike | clearly with the battery life issue it would be nice |
| 03:28.40 | spikebike | that and a program to say... ah your connected to access poitn X, turn off cellular |
| 03:29.02 | spikebike | my office has zero signal (except wifi) |
| 03:29.06 | *** join/#android Hongbo (n=lazyworm@138-38-222-174.resnet.bath.ac.uk) |
| 03:29.06 | unix_infidel | you'd essentially need to keep some of these options have to be mutually exclusive. |
| 03:29.49 | romainguy | plusminus_: why don't you just use View.setSoundEffectsEnabled(true)? |
| 03:29.51 | unix_infidel | so in order to maintain connectivity, 802.11 b/g or 3G would be on. |
| 03:29.59 | disappearedng | How do I get Current Position for Android? |
| 03:30.24 | romainguy | spikebike: AnyCut already lets you toggle Wifi/bluetooth |
| 03:30.43 | spikebike | no based on access point |
| 03:30.44 | *** join/#android jt436 (n=jtomlins@76.194.67.232) |
| 03:30.45 | spikebike | er not |
| 03:32.34 | unix_infidel | spikebike: you mean based on if a SSID like this is in range then turn off 3G? |
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| 03:37.39 | waldo_ | is it insanely quiet or is it just me? |
| 03:38.02 | languish | not just you |
| 03:38.05 | languish | and multiple networks |
| 03:38.18 | waldo_ | i thought I was disconnected or something |
| 03:38.26 | d03boy | does it make sense for me to create my own Adapter class for some buttons in a gallery? |
| 03:38.47 | *** join/#android dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 03:39.30 | wastrel | hi |
| 03:39.37 | d03boy | ih |
| 03:40.13 | languish | d03boy, yes, it does, as you'd be adding to the poll |
| 03:40.15 | languish | *pool |
| 03:40.22 | languish | someone else might like it |
| 03:40.32 | *** join/#android armooo (n=armooo@c-76-24-254-10.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 03:40.36 | d03boy | alrighty then |
| 03:40.44 | languish | :) |
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| 03:42.36 | *** join/#android Tinyboom (n=nahh@178.80-202-153.nextgentel.com) |
| 03:48.10 | *** join/#android Laz (n=Laz1@28.184.119.70.cfl.res.rr.com) |
| 03:52.28 | rjaym | is there any decent alternative to the g1's built in music player yet? |
| 03:53.06 | plusminus_ | romainguy: View.setSoundEffectsEnabled(true); works only if "Audible-Selection" was activated in the settings. |
| 03:53.58 | foobar`` | did google write the SLIRP qemu code? |
| 03:54.06 | foobar`` | er |
| 03:54.13 | foobar`` | modify the SLIRP qemu code |
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| 04:04.44 | d03boy | anyone know how I would go about making a gallery with buttons in it instead of images? |
| 04:04.56 | wastrel | buttons you say |
| 04:05.25 | d03boy | buttons galore |
| 04:07.03 | muthu | d03boy: you can add whatever widget you want inside a gallery |
| 04:07.42 | Laz | how do i write c++ apps for android? |
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| 04:07.59 | foobar`` | you don't |
| 04:08.27 | wastrel | the correct answer is, you write them in java |
| 04:09.24 | muthu | Laz: hook up them through jni |
| 04:09.53 | d03boy | muthu, im not entirely sure how though |
| 04:10.28 | muthu | d03boy: check out java tutorial |
| 04:10.29 | d03boy | do I need to make my own ButtonView and ButtonAdapter and stuff? |
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| 04:10.43 | muthu | oh, sry |
| 04:10.53 | d03boy | i know java quite well :P |
| 04:11.00 | muthu | oops that was for jni |
| 04:11.09 | muthu | d03boy: just add the buttons to the gallery |
| 04:11.23 | d03boy | ok then |
| 04:11.35 | muthu | write you own adapter |
| 04:11.43 | muthu | and then return button as the view |
| 04:12.05 | muthu | gallery can take a list adapter |
| 04:15.02 | muthu | apps running from sdcard seem to be major request |
| 04:17.22 | Laz | should of been like that by default |
| 04:18.00 | muthu | yeah, internal memory runs out soon |
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| 04:21.55 | muthu | did anyone upload notepad to the market? |
| 04:22.06 | muthu | its there in sdk.. and everyone is asking for it |
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| 04:27.09 | gambler | pls remember to tell me in two months how much you made with muthupad |
| 04:28.03 | d03boy | cant charge $ right now so it gives others a chance to pollute the market with apps :( |
| 04:28.33 | gambler | you cant charge yet? hmmm |
| 04:28.40 | gambler | when does that get turned on |
| 04:29.11 | muthu | gambler: haha |
| 04:29.51 | muthu | am thinking of uploading notepad to market as is if no one else has done it |
| 04:31.15 | rjaym | I want a 7-zip implementation to |
| 04:31.17 | rjaym | too* |
| 04:31.29 | gambler | why |
| 04:31.30 | d03boy | that could be a bit resource intensive? |
| 04:31.50 | rjaym | cause I was just browsing some apps, and some guy put his apk in a zip |
| 04:34.03 | gambler | so you want a whole app for a tiny corner case that can be sorted out in 30 seconds on a desktop PC? |
| 04:34.45 | rjaym | I kill time at work browsing stuff |
| 04:34.46 | gambler | seems like a pretty easy app to write given the high quality java compression libs out there |
| 04:35.08 | gambler | but I think I'd kill myself before I ever plucked fruit that was hanging that low |
| 04:36.27 | rjaym | I also want to be able to set my wallpaper without it being re-scaled, I tried to set a wallpaper that has a vector graphic drawn logo, and it looks horribly unsharp and blurred with graphic artifacts etc.., and that was when I sized the wall-paper to the supposed native resolution of G1's wallpaper's, 640x480 |
| 04:36.51 | *** part/#android dug_ (n=doug@c-76-27-105-7.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 04:37.37 | gambler | goes back to working on his nethack port |
| 04:39.12 | rjaym | sounds cool I wouldn't mind playing that |
| 04:39.28 | plusminus_ | startActivity(new Intent(Settings.ACTION_SECURITY_SETTINGS)); // WORKS |
| 04:39.46 | plusminus_ | startActivity(new Intent(Settings.ACTION_DISPLAY_SETTINGS)); // Works NOT |
| 04:39.48 | plusminus_ | any ideas ? |
| 04:40.08 | plusminus_ | LogCat says "No Activity found to handle this Intent." |
| 04:40.15 | plusminus_ | So my question is how to bring up i.e. the "Sound & Display"-Settings-Activity. ? |
| 04:40.23 | wastrel | hi |
| 04:41.06 | muthu | plusminus_: are you setting the right type? |
| 04:41.15 | plusminus_ | type? |
| 04:41.20 | muthu | some intents require action and type |
| 04:41.36 | plusminus_ | hm |
| 04:42.13 | plusminus_ | even if, why should the ones above be different? |
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| 04:47.25 | muthu | how do you switch branch using 'repo'? |
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| 04:48.49 | muthu | repo start.. creates a branch |
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| 04:49.02 | muthu | now need to switch to another branch |
| 04:49.32 | muthu | is the US working this week or not ? ;) |
| 04:49.54 | bgupta | Gotta say I love the G1. Anyone figure out how to get a shell prompt yet? |
| 04:50.15 | d0net2 | not local bgupta |
| 04:50.20 | bgupta | rats |
| 04:50.23 | d0net2 | im sure you know about connectbot though |
| 04:50.29 | bgupta | yeah.. |
| 04:51.36 | foobar`` | is there an easy way to just |
| 04:51.40 | foobar`` | restore a file |
| 04:51.45 | foobar`` | with uncommitted edits |
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| 04:52.52 | rjaym | I usually just delete/update |
| 04:54.14 | d0net2 | anyone use five music? |
| 04:54.34 | d0net2 | i cant get it to sync |
| 04:55.23 | wastrel | oh dear |
| 04:55.36 | muthu | foobar``: git revert? |
| 04:56.02 | muthu | hmm.. looks like repo has only a few commands |
| 04:56.07 | muthu | no way to switch branch |
| 04:57.35 | DarkriftX | any cool new programs written today? |
| 04:57.43 | foobar`` | i think i fixed the dns problem |
| 04:58.00 | wastrel | there's a dns problem? |
| 04:58.00 | muthu | DarkriftX: is there a notepad app in the market? |
| 04:58.09 | DarkriftX | no idea, i dont ahve a g1 |
| 04:58.13 | muthu | ok |
| 04:58.15 | DarkriftX | there was one on my site but it didnt work |
| 04:58.24 | wastrel | muthu: not afaict |
| 04:58.32 | muthu | there's one in source.. |
| 04:58.39 | DarkriftX | trying to find new apps/games to submit to my site |
| 04:59.03 | muthu | wastrel: am planning to build the notepad from android source and upload to market |
| 04:59.12 | muthu | guess it should be ok |
| 04:59.26 | DarkriftX | thats the one that was on my site and didnt work |
| 04:59.31 | wastrel | make it so i can hand-write notes on the screen as well as type |
| 04:59.40 | wastrel | also make it sync to google docs or something |
| 04:59.51 | wastrel | also make it location aware ffs, not enough stuff depends on gps |
| 04:59.57 | DarkriftX | lol |
| 05:00.00 | muthu | hehe |
| 05:00.05 | DarkriftX | you are at work, so your font will be x |
| 05:03.08 | bgupta | Wastrel: Here are some ideas for apps: podcatcher, pdf viewer, office document editor (or a functional google docs), mobipocket compaitble ereader, video camcorder, weather gadget for homescreen, more advanced media player, memopad/outliner/todo with websync, video player with autoscale (so I dont have to downsample my standard videos), |
| 05:03.50 | trigatch4 | jasonchen: around? |
| 05:03.55 | DarkriftX | can someone with a g1 test this? http://mileageledger.com/Mileage.apk |
| 05:04.07 | bgupta | Oh and while you are at it, a root shell, an A2DP driver, and a dialup networking client. |
| 05:04.09 | DarkriftX | last version that was submitted didnt work, but it was re-submitted today and i dont know if it works |
| 05:04.26 | bgupta | DarkriftX: I can test it |
| 05:04.38 | wastrel | there's an ereader in development, a pdf reader apparently in development but it's all in chinese so who knows, homescreen widgets aren't supported yet, there's a todo with websync but it's a mess UI-wise. |
| 05:04.42 | DarkriftX | ty, i dont want to add it to my official download page if it doesnt work like the last one |
| 05:04.43 | wastrel | dunno about that other jaz |
| 05:04.44 | wastrel | z |
| 05:04.54 | DarkriftX | and yeah, most of those ideas are good for apps |
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| 05:05.13 | trigatch4 | DarkriftX |
| 05:05.21 | trigatch4 | what "official" download page? |
| 05:05.22 | DarkriftX | file browser, aim app (cheap or freeware, $20 is expensive for an im client) and an irc client are must-have's |
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| 05:05.43 | rjaym | srsly.. irc client.. none yet? |
| 05:05.45 | DarkriftX | trigatch4, i have a "user submitted" forum, and i have a "downloads" forum |
| 05:06.02 | trigatch4 | ah, nice... friendly competition ;) |
| 05:06.06 | trigatch4 | whats the site? |
| 05:06.07 | DarkriftX | that file was in my downloads but didnt work so it was removed and a user re-submitted it today |
| 05:06.12 | DarkriftX | android-dls.com |
| 05:06.30 | DarkriftX | user submitted stuff gets moved but this app was already in there and didnt work |
| 05:07.19 | bgupta | Milage calculator crashed (process com.techmethods.mileage) has stopped unexpectedly. Please try again. |
| 05:07.45 | bgupta | DarkriftX: That was for you. |
| 05:07.56 | DarkriftX | ok, thx |
| 05:08.06 | DarkriftX | ill edit the post and not move it to downloads :( |
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| 05:12.28 | bgupta | DarkriftX: I didn't give you the full and exact error: Sorry! The application Mileage Calculator (process com.techmethods.mileage) has stopped unexpectedly. Please try again. |
| 05:12.44 | DarkriftX | thats ok |
| 05:12.55 | DarkriftX | just the fact it failed tells me not to add it |
| 05:14.55 | bgupta | Hey any blackberry devs around? I'm curious how easy it's gonna be to port Java apps from BB to Android? |
| 05:15.36 | bgupta | There are some pretty cool apps starting to surface on the BB side.. so was hoping some porting might go on. |
| 05:15.38 | RyeBrye | The UI stuff changes |
| 05:15.48 | RyeBrye | that's the first obvious change |
| 05:15.52 | bgupta | Ah, that makes sense. |
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| 05:16.38 | RyeBrye | and I find it funny that BB is finally starting to get apps built r it |
| 05:17.07 | RyeBrye | I had one about 3 or 4 years ago and the best I could find for it was mobipocket and that built-in breakout clone |
| 05:17.49 | bgupta | Yeah.. it took awhile... but I think the biggest factors is the PalmOS devs getting tired of a dying platform, and going to where the growth was. |
| 05:18.43 | RyeBrye | I've not built any aps yet - but I'm planning to get started hacking away soon |
| 05:18.52 | RyeBrye | but from what I've seen it looks pretty straightforward |
| 05:19.02 | RyeBrye | porting existing java stuff shouldn't be brain surgery |
| 05:19.06 | bgupta | cool. Any J2ME experience? |
| 05:19.23 | RyeBrye | No, only desktop and server |
| 05:19.27 | bgupta | cool.. |
| 05:19.27 | RyeBrye | J2SE and J2EE |
| 05:21.01 | RyeBrye | I saw one program I wanted to start hacking away at porting - a pure java x86 emulator called JPC http://www-jpc.physics.ox.ac.uk/ - I loaded it up into eclipse in an android project and the only errors I was seeing were in UI stuff and a couple of Java 1.6-only functions it was using |
| 05:22.27 | RyeBrye | It uses swing extensively, so porting it wont be trivial - but it should be an interesting project |
| 05:24.16 | wastrel | i don't know any java :] |
| 05:24.42 | romainguy | it uses Swing?? |
| 05:25.00 | RyeBrye | romainguy - yes, they use swing a lot, with a bit of awt mixed in |
| 05:25.02 | romainguy | ah yes indeed |
| 05:25.04 | RyeBrye | just for presentation |
| 05:25.05 | romainguy | they changed it |
| 05:25.13 | romainguy | the last time I saw it, it had no UI |
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| 05:25.21 | romainguy | there's not that much UI to it |
| 05:25.22 | RyeBrye | Oh, it was just a command-line thing? |
| 05:25.29 | romainguy | it was an applet |
| 05:25.36 | romainguy | but just the DOS emulator, nothing else around |
| 05:25.42 | romainguy | so probably just using Java 2D |
| 05:25.52 | romainguy | porting Java 2D stuff to Skia is probably quite easy |
| 05:26.03 | RyeBrye | Hmm... maybe I can just pick which part to port then |
| 05:26.06 | RyeBrye | and port the easy part :) |
| 05:26.46 | bgupta | RyeBrye: Just wish we could get to the shell and then we could run some real emulators.. |
| 05:27.11 | *** join/#android neerhaj (i=chatzill@203.115.94.226) |
| 05:27.13 | RyeBrye | Yeah, I know... porting emulators to the phones will be a real bitch because of that - but maybe it will spawn the era of the Java-based emulator |
| 05:27.28 | RyeBrye | (doubtful... but hey... stranger things have happened) |
| 05:27.37 | romainguy | I certainly hope we have enough horsepower to write stuff like SNES emulators in Java |
| 05:27.51 | D0nets | hey guys im pretty newb but if i found a java guitar tuner app |
| 05:28.03 | D0nets | how hard would it be to make an android app with it |
| 05:28.03 | bgupta | Ugg.. I'm thinking, that we aren't gonna see alot of that stuff until we break out of Davlik. |
| 05:28.55 | RyeBrye | Well... If JPC can be ported, and works with decent speed - you could conceivably run x86 hosted emulators in JPC on top of ARM |
| 05:29.00 | RyeBrye | :P |
| 05:29.11 | romainguy | there are console emulators written in Java |
| 05:29.11 | RyeBrye | But then your head would explode just thinking about it |
| 05:29.20 | DarkriftX | romainguy, im sure there is |
| 05:29.26 | romainguy | like this one http://andre.facadecomputer.com/nes/ |
| 05:29.38 | DarkriftX | tons of ppc apps do it on slower processors and android seems better at resource management |
| 05:29.42 | romainguy | or http://www.virtualnes.com/ |
| 05:30.34 | RyeBrye | interesting |
| 05:32.29 | bgupta | Ok. so on my 2.4 GHz machine, JPC is benchmarking as a 40 MHz x86 box. :( |
| 05:32.52 | romainguy | ouch |
| 05:33.15 | RyeBrye | Ha |
| 05:33.16 | RyeBrye | :) |
| 05:33.25 | RyeBrye | I'll have to download the app and test it on mine |
| 05:33.57 | RyeBrye | is there some benchmark util you ran? |
| 05:34.43 | bgupta | I ran the linux demo |
| 05:34.53 | RyeBrye | gotcha |
| 05:35.32 | romainguy | argh |
| 05:35.33 | romainguy | fuck |
| 05:35.34 | RyeBrye | how many bogomips does the processor have? |
| 05:35.37 | romainguy | need to compile on the laptop @!# |
| 05:36.17 | bgupta | need to relaunch it.. I already shut it down |
| 05:36.22 | muthu | weird, repo doesn't have a branch command to switch branches |
| 05:36.29 | romainguy | muthu: use git |
| 05:36.33 | RyeBrye | repo is like git for dummies, isn't it? |
| 05:36.36 | bgupta | http://www-jpc.physics.ox.ac.uk/DemoLinux.html |
| 05:36.39 | romainguy | not really |
| 05:36.46 | romainguy | the thing is the Android project is made of 100 git repos |
| 05:36.59 | romainguy | so repo is just here to perform batch operations across these repos |
| 05:37.10 | romainguy | you still need to use git |
| 05:37.19 | romainguy | to do the staging for instance |
| 05:37.19 | muthu | romainguy: exactly |
| 05:37.21 | romainguy | or commit |
| 05:37.40 | muthu | ok |
| 05:37.53 | bgupta | http://java-emu.emuunlim.com/ |
| 05:37.53 | RyeBrye | Ah |
| 05:38.22 | RyeBrye | boycott advance is java? |
| 05:38.31 | RyeBrye | Interesting, that's one of the better GBA emulators |
| 05:38.33 | romainguy | fun |
| 05:38.42 | romainguy | I was using boycott advance when I was working for Atari |
| 05:38.49 | romainguy | the official Nintendo dev kit was too annoying :) |
| 05:39.21 | RyeBrye | I nominate Romainguy to port that one then ;) |
| 05:39.29 | DarkriftX | lol |
| 05:39.45 | bgupta | http://cottage.consolemul.com/news.htm Someone needs to port this. |
| 05:40.34 | RyeBrye | "2006-03-04: New games!" That would be a bitch to merge with the latest MAME, no doubt |
| 05:40.46 | RyeBrye | I guess merge isn't the right word |
| 05:40.55 | RyeBrye | it would be a bitch to bring up to date to match the latest MAME |
| 05:42.34 | RyeBrye | I don't think BAO is OSS |
| 05:42.44 | RyeBrye | at least I can't find a source link for it - and the bao.jar is obfuscated |
| 05:43.09 | RyeBrye | I mean.. I can decompile it just fine - but porting over a bunch of code with one-letter variable names isn't my idea of fun :) |
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| 05:44.58 | bgupta | Yikes: http://www.dreamfabric.com/c64/ |
| 05:45.59 | romainguy | looking at the URL I thought it was an N64 emulator |
| 05:46.01 | romainguy | it scared me :) |
| 05:46.57 | bgupta | http://www.jac64.com/ |
| 05:46.59 | DarkriftX | lol RyeBrye |
| 05:47.22 | DarkriftX | RyeBrye, run a regex script to change all the vars |
| 05:47.34 | bgupta | http://sourceforge.net/projects/jac64 |
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| 05:49.11 | bgupta | RyeBrye: Maybe I was too quick to write off Java based emulators... |
| 05:49.31 | bgupta | We can certainly emulate some of the older stuff. |
| 05:50.25 | bgupta | I mean the c64 was 1 MHz if I recall.. |
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| 05:53.02 | D0nets | hey when i try to build this app (five) |
| 05:53.06 | D0nets | it says build successful |
| 05:53.09 | D0nets | but i get lots of errors |
| 05:53.31 | umdk1d3 | hmm, did you use maven to build? |
| 05:53.52 | D0nets | [Error] warning: Ignoring InnerClasses attribute for an anonymous inner class that doesnt come with an associated EnclosingMethod attribute. (This class was probably produced by a broken compiler.) |
| 05:53.55 | D0nets | yea |
| 05:54.01 | umdk1d3 | those are just warnings tho |
| 05:54.04 | romainguy | what compiler are you using? |
| 05:54.53 | D0nets | javac 1.5.0_13 |
| 05:54.55 | D0nets | have you guys tried five? |
| 05:55.07 | umdk1d3 | ive been using it for awhile :) |
| 05:55.10 | romainguy | nope |
| 05:55.12 | romainguy | would like to |
| 05:55.24 | romainguy | btu I'm too lazy to setup the server |
| 05:55.48 | D0nets | whenever i click on anything i get "Sorry! The application org.devtcg.five.music (process org.devtcg.five.music) has stopped unexpectedly. Please try again. |
| 05:55.54 | D0nets | in five music |
| 05:56.32 | D0nets | any ideas umdk1d3? |
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| 05:59.33 | umdk1d3 | D0nets: have you looked at a logcat dump? |
| 06:02.31 | umdk1d3 | D0nets: so errors in android get dumped into logcat, which you can view from eclipse |
| 06:02.36 | umdk1d3 | do you have the SDK installed? |
| 06:02.39 | D0nets | yes |
| 06:02.41 | D0nets | on my laptop |
| 06:03.12 | D0nets | ok eclipse is up |
| 06:03.44 | umdk1d3 | have you enabled usb debug mode on your device? |
| 06:04.52 | *** join/#android jaakkee (i=jaake@Marcy-115.resnet.brown.edu) |
| 06:05.03 | umdk1d3 | "1. Enable USB debugging. Go into Settings, Applications, Development, and enable the "USB debugging" option. " |
| 06:06.24 | D0nets | ok its enabled |
| 06:06.43 | umdk1d3 | cool, now if you go into the "DDMS" perspective in eclipse, you should hopefully see your device |
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| 06:08.09 | D0nets | hrmm, im not seing it |
| 06:08.49 | D0nets | i see it |
| 06:08.54 | *** join/#android israr[a] (n=israr@203.99.186.180) |
| 06:09.24 | D0nets | "Required maximum version of adb: 1.0.18. Current version is 1.0.20" |
| 06:09.35 | umdk1d3 | looooll |
| 06:09.51 | umdk1d3 | umm not sure what would cause that |
| 06:09.52 | umdk1d3 | are you running the 1.0 sdk? |
| 06:09.56 | D0nets | yea |
| 06:10.16 | umdk1d3 | odd i havent run into that error before |
| 06:10.30 | umdk1d3 | is your eclipse plugin updated for 1.0 as well? |
| 06:11.02 | umdk1d3 | D0nets: heres a solution looks like --> http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/13de5b8109eeb98a |
| 06:11.57 | jaakkee | hey. anyone know if wpa enterprise is a doable application (is the hardware limiting)? Or just not in the API yet? I saw wpa_supplicant in /system/bin/ |
| 06:15.14 | D0nets | umdk1d3 thanks |
| 06:15.17 | D0nets | fixing |
| 06:15.40 | D0nets | could that have something to do with my problem with five? |
| 06:15.54 | umdk1d3 | probably not, because it compiled fine |
| 06:16.06 | D0nets | well somethings def not right lol |
| 06:16.14 | gdsx | jaakkee: do you have a more specific description of what you mean by "wpa enterprise"? If you mean with PKCS certs and whatnot, I don't believe there's a UI for it, if the framework even supports it |
| 06:16.15 | D0nets | you are able to stream music right? |
| 06:16.37 | D0nets | ok umdk1d3 im back in the sdk |
| 06:16.47 | umdk1d3 | D0nets: yep it works great for me |
| 06:16.55 | umdk1d3 | first step would be seeing what that error its giving you |
| 06:17.20 | umdk1d3 | when you get into logcat in ddms, try maximizing it and looking through for the five error |
| 06:17.30 | umdk1d3 | then copy the stacktrace to pastebin or somewhere |
| 06:17.33 | D0nets | ok i clicked window perspective ddms |
| 06:18.01 | umdk1d3 | does it connect to your device now? |
| 06:18.18 | D0nets | where should i be looking? |
| 06:18.41 | umdk1d3 | so in ddms, there is a devices tab |
| 06:19.02 | *** join/#android UKCoder (n=Les@216.27.182.2) |
| 06:19.03 | D0nets | yea i see that |
| 06:19.07 | D0nets | it shows the emulator 5554 |
| 06:19.30 | umdk1d3 | it should show your G1 if you have it connected over usb |
| 06:19.36 | umdk1d3 | in addition to any running emulators |
| 06:20.17 | UKCoder | Hi all, does anyone know if there's a known bug that prevents audio play out with the emulator when used on vista? I don't get any errors while playing out audio, but there is no sound either. There's no other application currently using audio (, and the -useaudio flag isn't a valid startup option). |
| 06:23.20 | D0nets | i dont see it umdk1d3 |
| 06:23.24 | D0nets | i see devices |
| 06:23.27 | D0nets | its plugged in |
| 06:23.35 | D0nets | usb debugging and stay awake are checked |
| 06:24.28 | umdk1d3 | D0nets: what OS are you using? |
| 06:24.33 | D0nets | ubuntu |
| 06:24.37 | D0nets | 7.10 |
| 06:24.57 | umdk1d3 | there are some things you might need to add: http://code.google.com/android/intro/develop-and-debug.html#developingondevicehardware |
| 06:27.19 | D0nets | where is androidmanifest.xml |
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| 06:28.35 | scriptdevil | When I run the emulator, all the emulator displays is ANDROID even though I am running the sample applications. Any pointers as to what may have caused this? |
| 06:33.05 | scriptdevil | I am using Archlinux by the way |
| 06:33.26 | D0nets | umdk1d3 any idears? |
| 06:34.26 | D0nets | i see in tools/lib there is androidmanifest.alias.template |
| 06:34.33 | D0nets | and androidmanifest.template |
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| 06:49.35 | D0nets | anyone here? |
| 06:49.53 | D0nets | In Eclipse, you can do this from the Application tab when viewing the Manifest (on the right side, set Debuggable to true). Otherwise, in the AndroidManifest.xml file, add android:debuggable="true" to the <application> element. |
| 06:49.56 | D0nets | where is the manifest |
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| 06:52.01 | Tauno | usually in project root/AndroidManifest.xml |
| 06:53.00 | D0nets | could you elaborate |
| 06:53.04 | D0nets | is that a dir in the sdk? |
| 06:53.53 | D0nets | oh i see |
| 06:54.01 | D0nets | but hrmm, im just trying to get my device to show up |
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| 06:55.00 | jota- | hey can anyone tell me how easy it actually is to get a g1 with no contract for the 400$ price? Can you just walk in to any tmobile store and theyÄll sell it to youwith no trouble? what about walmart? |
| 06:56.04 | languish | hrm |
| 06:56.33 | languish | two g1's plugged in to the same pc via usb. second g1 doesn't show up as a removable drive |
| 06:57.01 | Tauno | d0nets, oh, didn't know what you were trying to do :) (have no idea how you get the device to show up.. I don't have one :|) |
| 07:02.58 | RyeBrye | jota- they aren't in walmart yet AFAIK - but they will be shortly is the rumor - and the other rumor is they will be there for $148 for those buying a contract or an upgrade |
| 07:03.10 | RyeBrye | $148 + $200 ETF < $400 |
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| 07:03.48 | foobar`` | you also need to pay for a month of service |
| 07:03.57 | RyeBrye | ok, in that case you might be about even |
| 07:04.45 | jota- | ETF = ? |
| 07:04.46 | swetland | rye: you are famous! |
| 07:04.46 | swetland | http://www.boingboing.net/2008/10/24/hackers-working-on-c.html |
| 07:05.17 | RyeBrye | wow... my random quote made it to boing boing? |
| 07:05.33 | swetland | hackers have extracted the g1 firmware via camera driver exploitz! |
| 07:06.04 | jota- | You probably cant get a crontract if you dont have a US billing addres(which I dont). Thats why im interested on the no contract option |
| 07:06.22 | foobar`` | RyeBrye, that is clever |
| 07:06.22 | swetland | actually this one referring to the bb article is better: |
| 07:06.23 | swetland | http://www.techdigest.tv/2008/10/tmobile_g1_has.html |
| 07:06.52 | RyeBrye | "Using Canon cameras, hackers have been able to take images of the chips and then analyze pixels to determin vulnerabilities in the space time continuum that allow wormholes to form around coders..." |
| 07:07.18 | RyeBrye | Ok... that techdigest one shows that someone needs to work on reading comprehension. |
| 07:07.23 | languish | HAHAHAHAHA |
| 07:07.34 | languish | man that's hysterical |
| 07:07.41 | languish | scary, stupidm but funny |
| 07:07.59 | foobar`` | RyeBrye, how does the stuff on the g1 differ from the release opensource version? |
| 07:08.43 | RyeBrye | And... I haven't even gotten my G1 yet - so I'd be uber 1337 if I had already dumped the bootloader or something using an LED trick |
| 07:08.50 | swetland | the main differences on production g1: |
| 07:08.58 | swetland | - runs in "secure" mode (adb is not root, etc) |
| 07:09.18 | swetland | - has a handful of hardware-specific proprietary libs (qualcomm opengles library, htc radio interface library, etc) |
| 07:09.26 | swetland | - has some google apps (maps, gmail, etc) |
| 07:10.02 | foobar`` | will those binaries run on the opensource base OS? |
| 07:10.12 | swetland | yup |
| 07:10.16 | languish | RyeBrye, you should respond in the comments to the techdigest blog with something akin to "James O'Malley you're a reading comprehension challenged idiot." |
| 07:12.37 | *** join/#android Hai-Fai (n=jarmo@hoasnet-fe35dd00-42.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 07:12.45 | RyeBrye | Yeah, I did just reply to them... I was a bit more polite than that - but are the camera doesn't even have an auto focus LED |
| 07:14.28 | RyeBrye | err... that didn't come out correctly... but yeah - I'm not quite sure that dumping the firmware of the device would even matter |
| 07:14.51 | RyeBrye | although dumping the bootloader might help - if there were some helpful symbols left in it to identify what some of the functions might do in it |
| 07:14.52 | foobar`` | wait |
| 07:14.55 | foobar`` | what did you do? |
| 07:15.05 | RyeBrye | Canon camera - blinked the firmware out of the autofocus LED |
| 07:15.16 | RyeBrye | NOTHING to the G1 yet |
| 07:15.25 | foobar`` | ah |
| 07:15.26 | RyeBrye | it comes tomorrow |
| 07:15.27 | foobar`` | ok |
| 07:16.22 | RyeBrye | I've found info on getting into the bootloader, and talked to other people about it - but nobody seems to know how to get into it yet |
| 07:16.36 | RyeBrye | or more specifically - how to do something when you are in the bootloader |
| 07:17.01 | RyeBrye | (hold down the camera button when you boot and you get into the bootloader and it says "Serial 0" but nothing much else goes on there it seems) |
| 07:17.36 | rwhitby | RyeBrye: I expect there is a serial port on the PCB somewhere where you'd then get a prompt. |
| 07:18.00 | RyeBrye | Yeah, there was also a thought that the extra audio pins on the underside of the EXT-USB might be used as serial in that mode |
| 07:18.04 | rwhitby | (or not, if they've shut down console access on the bootloader as a final testing step) |
| 07:18.21 | RyeBrye | Most other HTC phones get busted open it seems |
| 07:18.22 | swetland | they were supposed to ^^ |
| 07:18.31 | RyeBrye | Oh, they were? :( |
| 07:18.44 | rwhitby | swetland: supposed to shut down the console access? |
| 07:18.59 | swetland | shut down download/debug features on the production bootloader |
| 07:19.19 | rwhitby | dealt with a Linksys WRP400 router which had u-boot with the serial port console locked as the final manufacturing step. |
| 07:19.44 | rwhitby | ... and then kernel output redirected *away* from the serial port on boot ... |
| 07:19.49 | swetland | the bootloader is pretty much a black box to me though |
| 07:21.42 | RyeBrye | Were they supposed to do that to the G1 specifically or just to phones in general? |
| 07:26.36 | foobar`` | it looks like ConnectivityManager has a method called "dump" which seems to be callable via some IPC thing |
| 07:26.40 | foobar`` | not part of it's interface |
| 07:26.53 | foobar`` | is there some simple program that will call "dump" on a given service object? |
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| 07:27.22 | swetland | ms |
| 07:27.24 | swetland | oops |
| 07:27.42 | swetland | foobar: dumpsys |
| 07:28.03 | foobar`` | ah |
| 07:28.10 | foobar`` | nice |
| 07:28.17 | swetland | with no arguments it asks *all* services to dump state |
| 07:28.20 | swetland | which can be a little chatty |
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| 07:30.09 | foobar`` | so the problem with the dns is "net.dns1" system property is not set |
| 07:30.18 | foobar`` | "net.eth0.dns1" is set |
| 07:30.19 | BruteSource | hows it swetland? |
| 07:30.47 | theCarpenter | so im trying to modify the PackageInstaller, and i copied the relevant source files out of the android source directory into my eclipse workspace |
| 07:31.05 | theCarpenter | now how the heck do i get eclipse to recognize it as a valid project? it just doesnt appear in the project explorer and i cant import it or anything |
| 07:31.15 | theCarpenter | all the right parts seem to be there, so what am i missing? |
| 07:32.09 | theCarpenter | is there an additional global eclipse projects directory i need to tool with? |
| 07:41.59 | foobar`` | D/MobileDataStateTracker( 51): Received android.intent.action.ANY_DATA_STATE broadcast - state = DISCONNECTED, unavailable = true, reason = radioTurnedOff |
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| 08:04.52 | Tauno | anyone knows where the source for java.lang.* classes is (what *.git)? I couldn't find them in base.git |
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| 08:10.10 | RyeBrye | Has anyone taken apart a G1 yet and posted images? |
| 08:20.43 | BruteSource | man im single handedly defending android while they beat the crap out of it in ubuntu-offtopic |
| 08:22.21 | theCarpenter | people care about ubuntu-off-topic? |
| 08:22.32 | spikebike | heh |
| 08:22.36 | Tauno | ok, another one - I can't get my TextView to scroll by its own. Adding a ScrollView around it solves vertical scrolling but I heard rumors that TextView should be able to scroll by itself.. and also horizontally. Any pointers? |
| 08:26.05 | BruteSource | oh man gotta give it to ubuntu users |
| 08:26.40 | BruteSource | nm there must be some in here |
| 08:27.06 | muthu | BruteSource: what they saying? |
| 08:30.58 | BruteSource | they kicked me lol |
| 08:31.19 | muthu | haha.. you need to gang up and go :) |
| 08:32.14 | BruteSource | no, im not really a troll i just don't like when they talk about android badly, especially when then have never used it. |
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| 08:40.04 | Tauno | (about scrolling TextView) android:scrollHorizontally = "true" is not helping...neither is android:scrollbarAlwaysDrawHorizontalTrack="true" or android:scrollbarAlwaysDrawVerticalTrack="true" |
| 08:40.58 | Tauno | the combination of android:scrollHorizontally ="true" android:scrollbars="horizontal|vertical" is almost working.. as it displays the scrollbars.. but you can't interact with them.. |
| 08:45.05 | Tauno | I know it has to be a simple thing that I have to set somewhere... the ScrollView doc says: "The TextView class also takes care of its own scrolling, so does not require a ScrollView" |
| 08:45.20 | muthu | textview does it own scrolling yes |
| 08:45.48 | muthu | are you using edittext? |
| 08:45.56 | Tauno | no, plain TextView |
| 08:47.45 | Tauno | the layout of the activity is just a TextView and an EditText (both are inside a LinearLayout) TextView has the following params: android:layout_width="fill_parent" android:layout_height="wrap_content" android:layout_weight="1" |
| 08:48.23 | Tauno | EditText has android:layout_width="fill_parent" android:layout_height="wrap_content" and android:singleLine="true" |
| 08:48.26 | muthu | try to set lines |
| 08:48.50 | Tauno | I tried android:singleLine="false".. nothing |
| 08:49.02 | Tauno | (in TextView) |
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| 08:50.48 | Tauno | if it matters, I set the text with .append("..."); |
| 08:58.13 | *** part/#android Paddy_EIRE (n=patrick@78.149.86.66) |
| 08:59.02 | Tauno | I'm out of ideas |
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| 09:11.54 | muthu | Tauno: run the hierarchyviewer and check layout |
| 09:12.00 | muthu | it might throw some tips |
| 09:12.17 | foobar`` | is there a way to dump the sqllite db |
| 09:13.05 | muthu | there's sqlite3 tool available |
| 09:13.11 | muthu | not sure if it dumps |
| 09:19.51 | Tauno | hierarchyviewer shows that the textview has the following properties disabled: hasFocus() isClickable() isFocusable() isFocused() isInTouchMode() wonder if any of these prevent the scrolling? |
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| 09:20.40 | muthu | if all the text gets displayed, then scrollbars will not be visible |
| 09:21.34 | foobar`` | do you know where dbs are written on the filesystem? |
| 09:21.36 | Tauno | It does not.. the text is like 10meters long and 1meter wide ;) |
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| 09:32.15 | muthu | foobar``: /data/data/your.package/databases |
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| 09:34.27 | foobar`` | w00t |
| 09:34.30 | foobar`` | i fixed the dns problem |
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| 09:45.39 | andreaf | hi * |
| 09:50.10 | andreaf | sorry there is a sort of System.out.println in android ? i would like to have some console output ? |
| 09:50.20 | gambler | Log.d |
| 09:50.28 | gambler | System.out.err works too |
| 09:50.45 | andreaf | thanks |
| 09:50.53 | gambler | System.err I mean |
| 09:52.58 | *** join/#android dueynz (n=duey@203.96.223.40) |
| 09:52.59 | andreaf | is studying android with the tutorial (the program does'nt works) |
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| 11:07.48 | neekers | . |
| 11:07.52 | Delvien | anyone else not able to access the web from their g1? i canssh through the net but bnot web browse |
| 11:08.19 | Tauno | ..if only I had a G1 ;) |
| 11:08.24 | *** join/#android Hongbo (n=lazyworm@138-38-222-174.resnet.bath.ac.uk) |
| 11:08.47 | neekers | the web works fine on my G1 |
| 11:08.54 | neekers | just tired it |
| 11:08.57 | neekers | tried |
| 11:09.05 | Delvien | Tauno: they.are cheap go buy one |
| 11:09.28 | neekers | i love my G1 |
| 11:10.03 | neekers | it kicks iPhoney butt :o) |
| 11:10.14 | Tauno | I'm in Europe.. they don't sell them here and they don't sell eunlocked G1s in USA so that I could just go there and get one and come back :( |
| 11:10.40 | neekers | they sell unlocked G1s on ebay |
| 11:10.55 | Tauno | rumors are that these are fake.. |
| 11:11.19 | neekers | and doesn't G1 start selling in britain very soon? |
| 11:11.26 | neekers | like in the next couple of days? |
| 11:11.36 | Tauno | otherwise I would buy more than just one.. we are many developers here :) |
| 11:11.59 | Tauno | I'm also not in UK.. and they also don't sell it without a contract or unlocked versions AFAIK |
| 11:12.53 | neekers | where are you? |
| 11:13.44 | Tauno | Estonia - a small forgotten country between Russia and the civilized world :) |
| 11:13.49 | BruteSource | they dont sell it anywhere without a contract |
| 11:14.00 | BruteSource | well ebay |
| 11:14.05 | neekers | i hear it's a beautiful country |
| 11:14.44 | neekers | with the most beautiful girls in the world |
| 11:15.26 | Tauno | that's the problem here.. they won't be selling them in my country any time soon (we don't have big telcos like T-mobile etc.. here).. for example the iPhone came to sale here in the beginning of this september |
| 11:16.21 | Tauno | neekers, well that's true :) |
| 11:17.35 | BruteSource | the first iphone? |
| 11:18.10 | tomgibara | Tauno: I've been to Estonia are you in Tallinn? |
| 11:18.18 | tomgibara | Beautiful country. |
| 11:18.33 | Tauno | tomgibara, no I'm not in Tallinn |
| 11:20.31 | Tauno | BruteSource, the second gen one the first one is not sold here at all. (the price is about 1600$ here) |
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| 11:23.15 | neekers | i've decided to go on a news diet and not read the news for a week. there is so much negativity in the news that i think it has a bad effect on people |
| 11:23.30 | Tauno | that is.. the price when you want it without a contract.. if you get the contract then it'll be a total of ~1600$ too.. and thats the 8GB version with 100 free mins, 100 free sms and 100mb free data per month |
| 11:23.39 | Delvien | neekers just figuring that out ? :) |
| 11:24.25 | neekers | delvien: well... i just want to see if it has an effect on me by not reading all that negativity |
| 11:25.26 | Delvien | neekers: its designed to make people watch it not give you all of the facts |
| 11:25.33 | Tauno | (offtopic) oh.. just calculated that if I want an iPhone with unlimited data then it'll be >$2500.. |
| 11:26.20 | neekers | yes, you're right, its an addictive negativity drug |
| 11:26.44 | neekers | designed to surpress the spirit! :o) |
| 11:26.55 | neekers | ok, im going a little off the deep end.... |
| 11:27.49 | Tauno | (offtopic) the average wage is something like ~$900/month.. no wonder that almost nobody has an iPhone here ;) |
| 11:28.57 | Delvien | tauno 900? that stinks. price of housing must be low? |
| 11:29.05 | neekers | i wsa thinking just that, it must be several months wages... |
| 11:29.41 | Tauno | so to conclude.. I'm in a twisted country that has a beautiful nature with the most beautiful women.. but living here is a little.. pricey.. |
| 11:30.14 | Delvien | neekers i havent read the news or watched tv in 4 years. im a happier man because of it |
| 11:30.43 | Delvien | tauno so id be considered rich there..... |
| 11:31.04 | neekers | delvien: that sounds excellent, you must have lots of time to do good positive things |
| 11:31.22 | Tauno | Delvien, a 2 room apartment (45 square meters) costs about $100 000 here (not in the capital.. there it costs more).. in an old building.. I don't know if it's cheap or not compared to * |
| 11:31.35 | Delvien | tauno find myself a beautiful wife and live in a cottage. sounds like a plan to me |
| 11:32.02 | neekers | it does sound like a good plan |
| 11:32.02 | Delvien | tauno $100.00 ? |
| 11:32.44 | Tauno | Delvien you don't want to live here.. because you would have to earn money here.. so you won't be rich anymore ;) you just want to get here.. get a girl (believe me.. foreign rich men are a hit here amongst women) and get out of here :) You'll see the nature if you are visiting your girls parents :) |
| 11:32.56 | Tauno | $100000 |
| 11:33.00 | neekers | i have the secret |
| 11:33.17 | neekers | live there and earn your money all off the internet. |
| 11:33.30 | Delvien | tauno wow a hundrd thousand? is that us dollars |
| 11:33.32 | neekers | it doesn't matter where you live |
| 11:33.34 | tomgibara | A lot of British and Americans have invested in property in Estonia pushing the prices up. |
| 11:33.37 | Tauno | yes, US dollars |
| 11:33.59 | Delvien | wow |
| 11:34.09 | Delvien | thats expensive |
| 11:34.25 | Tauno | now compare it with our wages.. THAT's expensive :P |
| 11:34.40 | Delvien | i pay /$700 a month for my 1200 sq ft apt |
| 11:34.58 | Tauno | that's the price if you want to buy it .. not rent :) |
| 11:35.02 | neekers | delvein: where are you? |
| 11:36.26 | Tauno | it's about $500/month here for ~500sq ft (thats also not in the capital.. there it's more I guess) |
| 11:36.37 | Delvien | neekers ohio usa |
| 11:36.39 | Tauno | oh, sry got the dimensions wrong |
| 11:36.46 | neekers | ahh |
| 11:36.59 | neekers | i live just outside of seattle |
| 11:37.01 | Tauno | ..no. .I was right :P |
| 11:37.11 | Delvien | tauno for the avg wage thats pricey |
| 11:37.18 | Tauno | it sure is :) |
| 11:37.38 | Delvien | capialism for the lose |
| 11:38.29 | Tauno | if we are offtopic already.. how many hours do you have to work there per week? |
| 11:39.14 | Delvien | 40 |
| 11:40.00 | Tauno | ok, then it's the same |
| 11:40.20 | Delvien | what country? |
| 11:40.34 | Tauno | estonia |
| 11:41.11 | Delvien | where abouts is that? |
| 11:42.22 | Tauno | (and the reason why nobody uses macs here is that for example macbook pro (17" 2.5GHz/4GB/320GB/GeForce 8600MGT) costs ~$4000) |
| 11:42.56 | *** part/#android DrTune (n=raplin@c-24-6-43-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 11:43.03 | Tauno | it's between finland, latvia, russia and sweden |
| 11:43.32 | neekers | it's a stone's throw from russia... get it? stones throw? estonia? errr... nevermind.... |
| 11:43.40 | neekers | :O) |
| 11:43.51 | Tauno | :P |
| 11:44.07 | neekers | yeah, that was pretty bad... |
| 11:44.42 | Tauno | not to be confused with Elbonia (hint@dilbert).. |
| 11:47.12 | Delvien | in soviet russia...stone throws YOU |
| 11:49.17 | *** join/#android trigatch4 (n=robjacks@c-68-33-22-200.hsd1.md.comcast.net) |
| 11:52.49 | bgupta | Tauno: You in Talin? |
| 11:53.37 | Tauno | no |
| 11:53.38 | bgupta | errr.... Talinn that is. |
| 11:54.03 | bgupta | Cool.. I used to work with someone from Estonia. |
| 11:54.47 | *** join/#android Laz (n=Laz1@28.184.119.70.cfl.res.rr.com) |
| 11:55.03 | bgupta | Al the Kazaa and Skype guys are from Estonia, no? |
| 11:55.36 | Tauno | not all.. but most of them are indeed |
| 11:56.10 | bgupta | I heard Estonia has a really cool technology scene right now. |
| 11:56.21 | bgupta | IE: It's really cool to be in tech... |
| 11:56.50 | Tauno | mostly true.. depends of the context :) |
| 12:02.19 | bgupta | http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2004/02/09/360106/index.htm |
| 12:04.35 | Tauno | but speaking of technology... we like to think that we are ahead of the rest of the world :P (e-voting (voting from internet), m-voting is coming next time (voting from your mobile), wireless access basically everywhere (using a dedicated 450MHz network that covers almost the whole country.. I think it covers something like 98% of the land area) etc etc etc..) |
| 12:06.08 | *** join/#android Dougie187 (n=doug@wg-d232092.dsl.fsu.edu) |
| 12:06.51 | *** join/#android TreyB (n=trey@74.203.168.157) |
| 12:07.08 | Tauno | and no, the voting is not done by diebold :P |
| 12:07.24 | Delvien | weird i can access data services but websites wqont load2 |
| 12:07.45 | *** join/#android satadru (n=satadru@cpe-69-201-133-23.nyc.res.rr.com) |
| 12:08.19 | neekers | delvien: are you indoors? |
| 12:08.44 | neekers | try going outdoors for just a few minutes |
| 12:08.54 | Delvien | yes but that shouldnt matter |
| 12:09.09 | Delvien | im taslking to you on the phone... |
| 12:09.10 | neekers | just a short little experiment |
| 12:09.27 | neekers | and restart your phone |
| 12:09.31 | Delvien | so http wont load but i still have data |
| 12:09.35 | Delvien | have |
| 12:09.50 | Delvien | and did the bat treset too |
| 12:10.04 | Delvien | reset* |
| 12:10.14 | neekers | try the little outdoor experiment for a couple of minutes where you have max reception... |
| 12:10.33 | Dougie187 | try to go to a website by ip |
| 12:10.55 | Dougie187 | like this 64.233.169.104 |
| 12:10.59 | Dougie187 | that should be google |
| 12:12.32 | *** join/#android oinkboink (n=dingdong@p5B125948.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 12:13.51 | *** join/#android kslater (n=kslater@206.193.242.33.nauticom.net) |
| 12:13.55 | Delvien | Dougie187: nope says fail to communicate with the server |
| 12:14.09 | neekers | try my experiment |
| 12:14.28 | Delvien | im working i cant leave my desk |
| 12:14.46 | kslater | man, what kind of place do you work in? |
| 12:14.48 | oinkboink | what i have to do to restart playback(that dont works) ...mabe with threads? http://nopaste.org/p/ae5pyg4IN |
| 12:15.05 | Delvien | but earlier on the way to work it was not woeking |
| 12:15.14 | Delvien | when ia |
| 12:15.19 | Delvien | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:15.31 | Delvien | wow whats up with connect bot |
| 12:15.37 | Delvien | brb |
| 12:16.07 | Dougie187 | http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/29/motorola-expected-to-cut-more-jobs-as-it-simplifies-around-andro/ |
| 12:16.08 | Delvien | back |
| 12:16.09 | Dougie187 | hmh? |
| 12:16.30 | Delvien | Dougie187: was that to me? |
| 12:16.37 | Dougie187 | no this is just in general |
| 12:18.07 | Delvien | kslater a crappy job |
| 12:18.10 | *** join/#android plusminus_ (i=4421a620@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7460fa7ba70eefd2) |
| 12:18.25 | Delvien | kslater if i leave my desk i get yelled at |
| 12:18.58 | kslater | sorry to hear that. At least you have us. |
| 12:19.07 | Delvien | haha yeah |
| 12:19.08 | kslater | oh, maybe that's not a benefit. ;-) |
| 12:19.28 | kslater | and an Android phone, don't forget that |
| 12:19.49 | neekers | wow, slave labor, i would quit in a heartbeat and tell those @sshats to go to hell |
| 12:19.50 | languish | ugh |
| 12:19.54 | languish | f'ing t-mobile |
| 12:19.57 | languish | service keeps dropping out |
| 12:20.17 | languish | strangely, it happened to my wife's phone |
| 12:20.18 | neekers | languish: do you have a g1? |
| 12:20.20 | languish | but not mine |
| 12:20.21 | *** join/#android Yar (n=nick@c-76-126-245-95.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 12:20.24 | languish | now it's happening to mine |
| 12:20.26 | Delvien | neekers only decent paying job i could find |
| 12:20.32 | languish | neekers, yeah, 2 of them |
| 12:20.37 | neekers | ahh |
| 12:20.57 | Delvien | languish its your area prolly |
| 12:21.09 | languish | Delvien, no doubt |
| 12:21.54 | kslater | weak service area? have you been a t-mo customer since before the g1? |
| 12:22.17 | languish | yea, since before t-mobile even came to the US |
| 12:22.19 | Delvien | languish: im in columbus ohio. best carrier here |
| 12:22.29 | languish | no, string signal area |
| 12:22.33 | languish | *strong |
| 12:22.56 | kslater | hmm |
| 12:24.43 | languish | yeah, it's t-mobile messing with the network here |
| 12:27.01 | languish | couldn't make a call, signal indicator showed no connection, tried to make a call and got no network selected, but can use gchat just fine |
| 12:27.02 | languish | yeeesh |
| 12:27.08 | languish | now it's showing edge |
| 12:27.11 | languish | but no 3g |
| 12:27.16 | languish | go go tmo |
| 12:27.56 | *** join/#android plb_ (n=plb@pool-96-250-255-43.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
| 12:28.00 | Delvien | i dont have 3g in my area |
| 12:28.10 | *** join/#android BlackBsd (n=brian@72.168.193.117) |
| 12:28.17 | Delvien | im on edge for the next 1-6 months |
| 12:28.25 | languish | i keep the 3g disabled much of the time to save battery. it's not that bad |
| 12:28.32 | plb_ | I recently purchased the g1 and also use linux...wondering how I would go about formatting an sd for use in it...I see no mention of format in handbook |
| 12:29.25 | bgupta | plb_: It should work with the Fat32 filesystem that comes from the factory |
| 12:29.35 | Delvien | plb_ dont need to format just mount it and delet the file. its in setting sd card something saying usb |
| 12:29.48 | *** join/#android an_dev (n=fih\paya@host-208-68-238-61.biznesshosting.net) |
| 12:30.02 | Delvien | plb_ files you need to delete * |
| 12:30.21 | neekers | languish: is it a requirement to pay extra for the 3g service? |
| 12:30.21 | plb_ | yeah it all popped up fine I was just curious about the formatting..I had a symbian before this and I just formatted the sd card from within the phone |
| 12:31.39 | plb_ | very fun phone to play with =) |
| 12:31.47 | languish | neekers, with t-mobile, it depends on how you aquire the g1 |
| 12:31.59 | neekers | what do you mean? |
| 12:32.08 | plb_ | I did the $25 plan |
| 12:32.19 | plb_ | they said aim msn etc count as text? |
| 12:32.24 | Delvien | plb_: mount command should show you filesystem type |
| 12:32.27 | languish | neekers, they don't charge "extra" just for 3g per se. They try to make you get an unlimited data plan if you sign up with a contract |
| 12:32.44 | languish | if you buy the G1 at full price, you aren't forced to choose a data plan |
| 12:33.02 | languish | (full price, assuming you don't sign up for the 2 year contract) |
| 12:33.22 | neekers | i mean will the G1 work *without* having the 3g data plan, are there any limitations other than speed |
| 12:33.26 | languish | but no, they don't do anything like charge you $9.99 to have 3g over edge |
| 12:33.43 | *** join/#android mpardo (n=chatzill@75.144.91.181) |
| 12:33.54 | Dougie187 | also, you can just use wifi though |
| 12:33.57 | Dougie187 | but i hear wifi sucks on it |
| 12:34.04 | Delvien | tmo in my area is esge till they install 3g |
| 12:34.09 | languish | neekers, some people have been using the G1 with the $5.99 t-zones plan. The speed is a limited gprs connection. You do lose some functionailty |
| 12:34.21 | Delvien | Dougie187: sucks bat life hardcopre |
| 12:34.28 | *** part/#android Zagor (n=bjorn@rockbox/developer/Zagor) |
| 12:34.31 | plb_ | wifi works good |
| 12:34.35 | plb_ | just kills battery |
| 12:34.36 | plb_ | lol |
| 12:34.41 | *** join/#android Hongbo (n=lazyworm@138-38-222-174.resnet.bath.ac.uk) |
| 12:34.41 | Delvien | yeah |
| 12:34.46 | Dougie187 | plb_: i have heard people saying its hard to keep a connection with the wifi |
| 12:34.58 | Delvien | Dougie187: i dont |
| 12:35.09 | plb_ | I dunno...I just got mine yesterday and it works fine |
| 12:35.24 | languish | Dougie187, that depends on the chipset in their wifi router/AP, and signal strength |
| 12:35.26 | Dougie187 | I don't have a phone so i couldn't tell you. this is just what i have heard from other people in here. |
| 12:35.37 | languish | the wifi radio in the G1 is a bit weak, but it's not bad per se |
| 12:35.57 | languish | but there do seem to be some minor incompatibility issues that haven't been fully addressed yet |
| 12:36.06 | languish | with certain wifi chipsets |
| 12:36.12 | languish | likely it'll improve with updates |
| 12:36.40 | languish | <neekers> i mean will the G1 work *without* having the 3g data plan, are there any limitations other than speed |
| 12:37.03 | languish | do you mean not having *any* data plan? or or just not having the expensive data plan? |
| 12:37.34 | neekers | well, if you just have the $5.99 plan, what do you lose? |
| 12:37.41 | neekers | the t-zone plan |
| 12:38.05 | Dougie187 | Aren't these plans detailed on their website? |
| 12:38.20 | languish | with the lower end plan (t-zones) you can read about it here http://androidcommunity.com/forums/f41/t-mobile-5-99-t-mobile-web-tzones-works-with-g1-4949/ |
| 12:38.44 | languish | I haven't personally messed with using the g1 with t-zones |
| 12:39.17 | plb_ | When I went to the tmo store yesterday...seemed everyone was buying the g1 heh |
| 12:39.37 | Dougie187 | heh thats the only reason people like tmobile. |
| 12:40.02 | plb_ | basically lol |
| 12:40.14 | languish | neekers, there's more discussion on it here http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?t=1446558 |
| 12:40.27 | neekers | thanks |
| 12:41.07 | languish | from what I understand, tmo is going to kill the ability to use t-zones with the g1 later this year after they revamp their data plans |
| 12:41.25 | plb_ | just me or does the phone and all accessories have that new shoe smell lol |
| 12:42.59 | *** join/#android smr (n=patrick@c-98-215-144-59.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 12:43.30 | languish | my only gripe with the data plan, is that tmo requires you have a voice plan |
| 12:43.46 | *** join/#android Dralspire (n=dral@81-196.126-70.tampabay.res.rr.com) |
| 12:43.52 | d03boy | 99% of people need a voice plan im sure |
| 12:44.04 | languish | $25 or $35 for unlimited data is and texting is exactly the price point I would want |
| 12:44.38 | languish | an additional $40 plus fees and taxes...well :/ |
| 12:44.55 | languish | d03boy, not once voip is available |
| 12:45.00 | smr | did they get rid of the 1GiB per month limit? |
| 12:45.05 | plb_ | I went with the $25 one but is it true that aim msn etc count as texting? |
| 12:45.22 | smr | plb_ depends on the IM client |
| 12:45.27 | languish | smr, yes, now it's 10GB per month, after which they limit you to around dialup modem speeds |
| 12:45.45 | languish | but they don't cut you off |
| 12:45.47 | d03boy | 10GB is pretty high.. i'd be surprised if anyone got that high |
| 12:46.03 | smr | languish: that's awesome. I'd much rather get my speed cut than be cut off or pay $5 per megabyte or something |
| 12:46.11 | plb_ | ah..hm so what are the must have apps? |
| 12:47.23 | languish | smr, agreed. tmo does have some plan looming where if you have a lower end data plan (like a $20/mo plan) and you go over.. you get charged for extra data usage, but they cap it at $15 more, pretty much making it equivalent to the $35 unlimited plan |
| 12:47.40 | languish | but that may not be for the G1, might just be for blackberries and such |
| 12:48.07 | languish | plb, did you get your linux microsd formatting question answered? |
| 12:48.23 | plb_ | yeah..I just deleted all data on the card |
| 12:48.28 | plb_ | as someone suggested |
| 12:48.36 | languish | nod |
| 12:49.00 | languish | plb for future reference |
| 12:49.01 | languish | sudo -s |
| 12:49.01 | languish | enter password:xxxxxxxxxxxx |
| 12:49.01 | languish | umount /dev/sda1 |
| 12:49.01 | languish | mkfs.msdos -F16 /dev/sda1 |
| 12:49.01 | languish | mount /dev/sda1 /media/usbdisk |
| 12:49.03 | languish | exit |
| 12:49.05 | languish | exit |
| 12:49.06 | plb_ | just looking for some interesting apps now |
| 12:49.07 | smr | I had tmo before with the blackberry data plan. it was a good unlimited plan for $20, but I didn' |
| 12:49.09 | plb_ | ah thanks |
| 12:49.17 | languish | where sda1 is your microsd card |
| 12:49.23 | smr | t even have EDGE coverage where I am. Speeds were crap |
| 12:49.54 | plb_ | thanks |
| 12:50.03 | plb_ | hm 16gb cards are still a bit pricey |
| 12:50.08 | languish | yeah |
| 12:50.22 | plb_ | looks like my 8gb will have to do |
| 12:50.23 | languish | 8GB is fine for now unless you just want to show off or really have the need for the storage |
| 12:50.29 | plb_ | heh |
| 12:50.39 | plb_ | so you can't install apps to memory card? |
| 12:50.44 | languish | not yet |
| 12:50.52 | plb_ | that sucks...hope they fix that |
| 12:51.01 | languish | but when you download apps from 3rd party websites, they download to the microsd card |
| 12:51.07 | languish | not from the market |
| 12:51.12 | plb_ | ah..well thats good at least |
| 12:51.13 | umdk1d3 | but they dont stay on the sdcard |
| 12:51.26 | languish | umdk1d3, really? mine did after I installed them |
| 12:51.26 | umdk1d3 | they are still installed to the base flash |
| 12:51.37 | umdk1d3 | the reason being unix filesystem permissions |
| 12:51.37 | languish | yes, they get installed to the flash |
| 12:51.44 | umdk1d3 | they cant be enforced on fat32 |
| 12:51.54 | languish | nod, makes sense |
| 12:52.31 | umdk1d3 | so for android security to work (program separation) they need to be on a user/permission based filesystem |
| 12:53.06 | plb_ | they need to make it so the workspace to the right and left can run different things on it kind of like how on linux..now that would be awesome |
| 12:53.12 | jbq_ | that's only one aspect, though. there's also the fact that the SD card can be pulled at any time, and isn't guaranteed to be there, so anything that deals with applications needs to deal with those two aspects as well. |
| 12:54.17 | *** join/#android muthu_ (n=mobeegal@59.92.29.179) |
| 12:54.32 | languish | I'm just fine with the apps installing to the flash. I just want to be able to keep a copy of the apk to reinstall at a later time from local network webserver or whatever |
| 12:54.42 | *** join/#android yakischloba (n=jake@209.160.56.254) |
| 12:54.49 | languish | not have to redownload it every time |
| 12:55.16 | languish | or install from the microsd |
| 12:55.19 | languish | to the flash |
| 12:55.46 | jbq | installing from SD is possible (in fact that's what happens when you download an app through the web browser) |
| 12:56.45 | *** join/#android annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda) |
| 12:57.05 | *** join/#android godzirra (n=godzirra@c-76-114-118-252.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) |
| 13:01.07 | languish | jbq, yeah, just no file browser that allows you to do it yet |
| 13:01.14 | languish | that I'm aware of anyway |
| 13:01.27 | languish | I know there are two filebrowsers out there |
| 13:01.58 | languish | but last time I checked, no ability to "open" the .apk's for installation |
| 13:02.06 | jbq | Any file browser that allows to "open" (i.e. view) files will be able to do that. There's nothing specific to apks. |
| 13:02.17 | languish | nod, that's good to know |
| 13:02.50 | languish | now to get the market to download a copy of the apk to the microsd |
| 13:03.00 | languish | the way it works with 3rd party sites |
| 13:03.14 | jbq | That's not possible. |
| 13:03.16 | *** join/#android annodomini_ (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda) |
| 13:03.21 | languish | yeah, drm |
| 13:03.26 | jbq | yup |
| 13:03.29 | languish | evil |
| 13:03.31 | languish | :D |
| 13:03.50 | jbq | annoying for sure (at least for me as an engineer who's got to deal with it) |
| 13:03.54 | languish | nod |
| 13:04.32 | jbq | Admittedly, going through a private area allows to install market apps even if there's no SD crd in the device, which has its own merits. |
| 13:04.47 | *** join/#android `vip (n=denied@m1a5e36d0.tmodns.net) |
| 13:04.54 | languish | true |
| 13:05.23 | jbq | But I would definitely prefer to see more flexibility here. |
| 13:05.24 | *** join/#android annodomini__ (n=lambda@64.30.3.122) |
| 13:06.22 | *** join/#android TreyB (n=trey@74.203.168.157) |
| 13:06.36 | *** join/#android shenki (n=joel@202.174.42.5) |
| 13:09.13 | michaelnovakjr | is there still no way to see apps in the market online without a phone? |
| 13:09.14 | languish | yeah, perhaps market forces can accomplish it |
| 13:10.27 | languish | michaelnovakjr_, http://www.android.com/market/ seems to still be the "official" site for it |
| 13:10.38 | languish | and it only presents the original winning apps |
| 13:10.57 | Dougie187 | how do you upload apps to the app market. |
| 13:11.03 | Dougie187 | maybe in that you can see what apps are in it? |
| 13:12.09 | d03boy | i paid my $25 and I cant see the apps |
| 13:12.20 | languish | Dougie187 http://market.android.com/publish |
| 13:12.26 | languish | and no, you can't |
| 13:12.33 | *** join/#android plusminus_ (i=81020c44@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f7dee9eca5257b3b) |
| 13:12.37 | Dougie187 | bust |
| 13:12.56 | smr | I wonder if they are not puting it on the web because certain apps will be locked down or only available for certain cellular providers |
| 13:13.35 | languish | I just think they haven't gotten to it yet. They didn't know what to expect with devs publishing their apps |
| 13:13.41 | smr | providers are very authoritarian; you play by their rules if you want to use their networks |
| 13:14.17 | smr | languish: maybe. but I prefer to be more cynical |
| 13:14.24 | languish | i doubt they'll provide a way to "buy" them on the web, but likely should put up an "available in the Android market on your android device" listing |
| 13:14.52 | smr | I wouldn't be surprized if they did offer that service, but only through your own provider's website |
| 13:15.16 | smr | so you would have to log into your tmobile account to access the market |
| 13:15.29 | *** join/#android MatPVB (n=saboteur@adsl-065-082-213-043.sip.jax.bellsouth.net) |
| 13:15.38 | *** join/#android topeira (n=lucio@unaffiliated/topeira) |
| 13:16.05 | languish | I would hate that |
| 13:16.14 | *** join/#android satadru (n=satadru@nyc-server.integrativenutrition.com) |
| 13:16.27 | languish | t-mobiles site has a history of breaking regularly |
| 13:16.44 | smr | yeah, I dealt with that for three years |
| 13:16.59 | smr | I couldn't understand why they couldn't get it right |
| 13:17.11 | smr | The site was probably developed in java :D |
| 13:17.15 | languish | haha |
| 13:18.55 | smr | I'm new to this java thing. Maybe I'm spoiled by C# and python, but things just seem harder than they should be. Maybe my puny brain is understanding "different" to be "difficult," but either way it's a pain in my arse |
| 13:19.00 | thoraxe | on the sidekick you could only access a special mobile version of the t-mobile site |
| 13:19.05 | thoraxe | despite the fact that you were using a "real" web browser |
| 13:19.55 | d03boy | smr, if you need help, ask |
| 13:20.16 | smr | Thanks ;) |
| 13:21.43 | *** join/#android tethridge (n=tale@207.235.54.1) |
| 13:23.53 | DJTachyon | well looks like i cant work on my VM of Kubuntu over Remote Desktop, everytime I hit a key it gets repeated 5 times |
| 13:23.59 | DJTachyon | :( |
| 13:24.09 | *** join/#android jbq (n=jbq@c-24-5-185-88.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 13:24.15 | smr | A lot of my frustration is just from eclipse working differently than I'd expect it to, which is no fault of eclipse's |
| 13:24.46 | smr | DJTachyon: can you set up a VNC server on your VM instance? |
| 13:25.18 | *** join/#android vbabiy (n=vbabiy@rrcs-24-97-148-190.nys.biz.rr.com) |
| 13:25.25 | smr | Then instead of remote desktoping in you'd VNC in |
| 13:27.14 | Disconnect | or just light up remote desktop on the vm directly. you never want to hit the host, always the guest.. solves problems like that (since the host has to do really weird key handling) |
| 13:27.33 | michaelnovakjr | yea i paid the $25 too |
| 13:27.34 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 13:27.34 | Dougie187 | http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/29/video-jules-the-robot-makes-convincing-argument-to-destroy-huma/ |
| 13:27.38 | michaelnovakjr | to start putting apps up |
| 13:27.46 | michaelnovakjr | its stupid i can't see what's already there |
| 13:27.57 | umdk1d3 | ooh michaelnovakjr uploaded? |
| 13:28.04 | michaelnovakjr | not yet... |
| 13:28.06 | michaelnovakjr | brb |
| 13:28.25 | *** join/#android BBHoss (n=bbhoss@c-68-62-170-33.hsd1.al.comcast.net) |
| 13:29.20 | smr | Disconnect: can he host RDP on Kubuntu? Wouldn't he have to use something else like VNC? |
| 13:29.29 | Disconnect | no it'll do either, like i said |
| 13:29.38 | Disconnect | actually like i meant to say, doh |
| 13:29.43 | Disconnect | but yah, it'll do either one |
| 13:32.17 | smr | how can it do either? Does VMWare have an RDP server built in? |
| 13:33.21 | Disconnect | no (although istr virtualbox does) but it does it the same way it does vnc - with a daemon. (..why wouldn't it be able to do both? different ports, different protocols..) |
| 13:33.23 | *** join/#android annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda) |
| 13:33.36 | *** join/#android nemik (n=cyanact@c-67-173-76-34.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 13:33.44 | smr | is there an RDP server implementation for linux? |
| 13:34.20 | Delvien | smr no rdp is not secure |
| 13:34.43 | Disconnect | i was pretty sure there was, although that could be wrong - not finding it now. either way, vnc is a better bet. |
| 13:34.51 | Disconnect | Delvien: neither is vnc. |
| 13:36.37 | smr | I secure my VNC by only accepting connections locally. I use SSH to tunnel in |
| 13:37.45 | Delvien | delvien nope but you can tunnel it |
| 13:38.00 | *** part/#android andreaf (n=andrea@82.112.213.98) |
| 13:38.43 | *** join/#android michaelnovakjr (n=chatzill@204.141.14.170) |
| 13:38.49 | Disconnect | you can tunnel either one. (and for the record, you are Delvien, i am Disconnect :) ..) |
| 13:39.13 | michaelnovakjr | umdk1d3: i'm planning a few more tweaks and then i'm going to stick it up on the market |
| 13:39.14 | languish | lol |
| 13:39.41 | Delvien | lol. weird |
| 13:39.53 | Delvien | didnt even realize i did that |
| 13:40.05 | Delvien | i talk to myself evidently |
| 13:40.41 | *** join/#android cutmasta (n=cutmasta@port-83-236-195-235.static.qsc.de) |
| 13:41.38 | *** join/#android jbq (n=jbq@72.14.224.1) |
| 13:43.14 | languish | Does the Droid Robot have a nickname over at google? |
| 13:43.40 | blount | bugdroid |
| 13:43.54 | languish | ah, hrmm |
| 13:43.55 | Disconnect | any thoughts on adding an rss feed to the market (or some other form of "whats new since i last looked" list..?) |
| 13:43.58 | languish | thanks |
| 13:44.01 | blount | :-) |
| 13:44.24 | Delvien | Disconnect: there is a feed reader |
| 13:44.27 | languish | yeah, a "what's new since I last looked" function would be great |
| 13:44.45 | Disconnect | Delvien: right. now what do i aim that reader (or any other) at to see new apps? |
| 13:45.18 | Disconnect | languish: you can kinda do it by just reading down to the last app you installed. but thats gonna get old fast as apps start updating more regularly (so they won't show "installed") and new apps come in faster |
| 13:46.22 | languish | Disconnect, nod |
| 13:46.30 | languish | that's sort of what I've been doing |
| 13:46.33 | umdk1d3 | gah /me has munchies |
| 13:46.37 | neekers | i have a friend who has an HTC phone in india, not a G1. when she tired to install an app with adb install, it says that it succcesfully installed but it does not show up in the list of applications, any ideas? |
| 13:46.41 | Delvien | Disconnect: it asks you to add a fees |
| 13:46.57 | Delvien | feeds* |
| 13:47.16 | languish | Delvien, he doesn't mean a standard rss reader |
| 13:47.19 | Disconnect | Delvien: right. reread the question - i want a list of new apps. it can be in a feed reader, it can be in the marketplace app, it can be on a webpage for all i caere.. |
| 13:47.25 | languish | Delvien, he means for the android market itself |
| 13:47.50 | languish | heh |
| 13:49.15 | Delvien | i see. sorry |
| 13:50.00 | plb_ | I'd like a feed reader widget |
| 13:50.14 | languish | I'd like some new widgets period :) |
| 13:50.20 | plb_ | heh |
| 13:50.26 | plb_ | good point |
| 13:50.42 | languish | oh man |
| 13:50.44 | *** join/#android popey (n=alan@ubuntu/member/popey) |
| 13:50.46 | languish | again with the no service |
| 13:50.49 | languish | ARGGHH |
| 13:51.00 | languish | these growing pains are discommunicational |
| 13:51.32 | thoraxe | someone needs to make a pandora app for android |
| 13:52.04 | languish | I'm suprised we haven't seen a star trek tricorder app yet |
| 13:52.09 | languish | :/ |
| 13:52.35 | languish | evidence the franchise is waning |
| 13:52.37 | *** join/#android DannyB (n=dannyb@74.202.225.17) |
| 13:53.08 | smr | but the new movie is coming out when? |
| 13:53.16 | thoraxe | it has definitely had its run |
| 13:53.17 | languish | heh |
| 13:53.42 | languish | smr, no idea, though I'll see it, I suspect I'll enjoy it, but in no way appreciate it |
| 13:53.49 | Disconnect | ok its #1117 |
| 13:53.52 | smr | I refuse to acknowledge your theory, thoraxe |
| 13:54.09 | *** join/#android randomhtpcguy (n=megan@cpe-069-134-207-014.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 13:54.16 | languish | DannyB, hi. I had a question for you... |
| 13:55.14 | languish | waits for a response as none was forthcoming yesterdy |
| 13:55.14 | languish | *day |
| 13:56.22 | TreyB | s/dy/day/ |
| 13:56.37 | languish | thanks B |
| 13:57.01 | TreyB | Huh. Either the bot knows when to do it, it got shut down, or it ignores /me lines. |
| 13:57.20 | languish | heh |
| 13:57.25 | TreyB | s/Huh/Heh/ |
| 13:57.46 | TreyB | It won't let someone else fix your messages :-) |
| 13:57.58 | languish | lol |
| 13:58.01 | DannyB | languish: what's up |
| 13:58.32 | languish | Ahh heya DannyB. I was wondering.. I saw the branding page... and it restricts the use of naming apps with a derivation of Android. How is that going to be handled with so many apps being named "Andthisorthat" and "whateverDroid" ? |
| 13:59.38 | Disconnect | google is just waiting a month or two, then they're gonna sue everyone and collect all their money. :) |
| 13:59.48 | DannyB | hold on one sec, let me go reread the actualr eleased guidelines and i'll give you some advice :) |
| 13:59.49 | DannyB | ::) |
| 13:59.57 | languish | DannyB cool thanks |
| 14:00.05 | languish | Disconnect, lol |
| 14:00.20 | DannyB | languish: In theory you shouldn't be naming that stuff DroidWhatever, etc |
| 14:00.27 | TreyB | Google already has all the money. |
| 14:00.29 | Tauno | ..thats how you make money with an oepn source thing :P |
| 14:00.32 | DannyB | In practice, let me go bonk someon eover the head and see if we can change it :) |
| 14:00.39 | languish | DannyB, awesome :) |
| 14:00.40 | Disconnect | does agree with the ml post about "I invested a ton of effort in this name, branding, domain, etc and now, at the 11th hour, you spring this" |
| 14:01.08 | languish | ml post? |
| 14:01.10 | Disconnect | (istr it was fitdroid or fitroid or something. i know, clearly the branding worked since i can't remember the actual name :P ..) |
| 14:01.18 | languish | haha |
| 14:01.35 | languish | well, someone should have read the branding page :/ |
| 14:01.39 | languish | many someones |
| 14:01.53 | Disconnect | branding page came late i thought |
| 14:02.05 | languish | I wouldn't be suprised |
| 14:02.09 | thoraxe | twidroid |
| 14:02.11 | thoraxe | andnav |
| 14:02.15 | thoraxe | there's a huge pile |
| 14:02.20 | *** join/#android tmccrary (n=tmccrary@68.78.185.226) |
| 14:02.22 | languish | steaming pile |
| 14:02.26 | eldenz | of |
| 14:02.33 | Disconnect | yah "october 2008" just like everything else... |
| 14:02.36 | languish | vegetable |
| 14:02.37 | languish | s |
| 14:02.41 | TreyB | spagehtti |
| 14:02.51 | tmccrary | I'm in the detroit area and my G1 Edge or now 3G service has never worked...at all? |
| 14:02.57 | tmccrary | Anyone else in the michigan area have the same issue? |
| 14:03.43 | Disconnect | if you never had working data its a tmob issue, gotta get on with 611 and bitch |
| 14:03.51 | languish | DannyB, as an idea.. giving limited licence to use the stated naming dervivations so long as the application fits within the developers guidlines for the Market, might work |
| 14:04.43 | DannyB | Disconnect: got a link to that post? |
| 14:04.47 | languish | and limiting them to "Andxxx" "xxxDroid" "droidxxx" and "Android xxxx xxxx" ? |
| 14:04.49 | DannyB | I'd like to include it in my internal discussion :) |
| 14:04.49 | Disconnect | i can find it prolly |
| 14:05.15 | D0nets | i cant get my g1 to show up in the emulator in ubuntu |
| 14:05.16 | D0nets | any ideas? |
| 14:05.24 | languish | btw, IANAL |
| 14:05.30 | languish | for whatever that's worth |
| 14:05.34 | DannyB | I am :) |
| 14:05.40 | DannyB | and a compiler developer |
| 14:05.42 | DannyB | ;) |
| 14:05.43 | languish | yep, tis why you're the man |
| 14:05.45 | languish | :) |
| 14:05.50 | Disconnect | http://groups.google.com/group/android-discuss/browse_thread/thread/c427eea75f04be0e?pli=1 |
| 14:05.52 | DannyB | no, it's why i'm in debt |
| 14:05.52 | DannyB | ;) |
| 14:05.56 | languish | haha |
| 14:06.14 | smr | you're a lawyer and a compiler developer? |
| 14:06.22 | DannyB | smr: yes |
| 14:06.24 | Dougie187 | xxxDroid sounds like a robot strip club. |
| 14:06.29 | smr | What compiler do you work on? |
| 14:06.34 | DannyB | gcc and llvm |
| 14:06.39 | thoraxe | if you pay a robot to get you off, is it still prostitution? |
| 14:06.42 | TreyB | You can't use phones in Detroit. You have to support the car companies and drive to whomever you want to speak with. |
| 14:06.52 | languish | thoraxe, the real question is, is it still cheating? |
| 14:07.06 | smr | cool. I was obsessed with compilers for a couple years a few years back. Even managed to write one here at work :D |
| 14:07.10 | thoraxe | languish: if you get off another guy, but you're controlling a robot arm, is it gay? |
| 14:07.17 | Disconnect | smr: that makes sense, both fields deal with arcane rules and huge, unreadable, incomprehensible masses of text. and there are awards in both fields for producing such, or making them less easily parsable... |
| 14:07.26 | languish | thoraxe, undoubtly. |
| 14:07.29 | thoraxe | oh man... so inapropriate. |
| 14:07.31 | thoraxe | +p |
| 14:07.32 | languish | +ed |
| 14:07.34 | Dougie187 | thoraxe: i think you just crossed the line. |
| 14:07.57 | *** join/#android jbq (n=jbq@nat/google/x-9dbcdd12355e2512) |
| 14:08.01 | Dougie187 | and now, you are added to the "should be banned" list. |
| 14:08.02 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 14:08.06 | thoraxe | :( |
| 14:08.14 | Disconnect | nice to know the 13 year olds got their phones on time. :( |
| 14:08.16 | languish | fear the reaper |
| 14:08.28 | Dougie187 | languish: seasons dont. |
| 14:08.39 | Rawplayer | hi DougieMurder |
| 14:08.41 | languish | :) |
| 14:08.49 | *** join/#android cutmasta (n=cutmasta@port-83-236-195-235.static.qsc.de) |
| 14:09.06 | tmccrary | Calling 600 just said "Your phone is not authorized in this area at this time." |
| 14:09.32 | DannyB | smr: ;) |
| 14:09.43 | DannyB | Disconnect: i'm also a registered patent attorney ;) |
| 14:09.48 | DannyB | Disconnect: which fits into your theory |
| 14:09.52 | Disconnect | heh yah seriously |
| 14:09.54 | Dougie187 | tmccrary: i get that shit on my stupid katana. that happens when im in a timezone thats not the same as my local phone number's timezone |
| 14:09.59 | Disconnect | tmccrary: 611 |
| 14:10.08 | DannyB | FWIW, the reason most of legal writing is horrible is because of bad writers, not becase you have to write like that |
| 14:10.13 | DannyB | really. |
| 14:10.33 | DannyB | you can write perfectly understandable english contracfts, and except for a few phrases required by statutes, it would be perfectly understandable |
| 14:10.46 | Disconnect | well and the fact that we've gotten away from intent and into exact-wording :( |
| 14:10.55 | Dougie187 | DannyB: lawyers need to hire some english majors. that would be a good use of their 4 years. |
| 14:11.10 | languish | DannyB, it's cool with me. I got paid awhile back to review tech contracts for mistakes due to the poor writing skills if the legal beagles |
| 14:11.11 | DannyB | it doesn't happen because most partners in law firms are older than mandatory legal writing classes, and they control what their associates do |
| 14:11.22 | smr | They often do, don't they? Hire english majors, that is |
| 14:11.26 | DannyB | so you end up with associates who write well, then hand it to the partners and get told to rewrite it much worse ;) |
| 14:11.50 | tmccrary | thanks |
| 14:11.53 | smr | My girlfriend is an english major/teacher and says if she gets fed up with teaching should could work at a law office |
| 14:12.01 | DannyB | i would not recommend it |
| 14:12.05 | languish | hahaha |
| 14:12.10 | DannyB | i don't work in private practice because it's mostly paperwork |
| 14:12.11 | languish | yeah bad move for you |
| 14:12.15 | DannyB | 99% of law is paperwork |
| 14:12.19 | smr | I think english majors and lawyers should not be allowed to write documentation |
| 14:12.32 | languish | smr, neither should most tech writers |
| 14:12.35 | languish | :| |
| 14:12.39 | smr | or UIs |
| 14:12.54 | jbq | Yeah, leave the UI to the engineers ;-) |
| 14:13.03 | languish | though, some whitepapers make for excellent sleeping aids |
| 14:13.06 | DannyB | jbq: you start coding, i'll go upstairs and see what the users want |
| 14:13.30 | jbq | users? why not do what I want? |
| 14:13.41 | neekers | languish: see my im? |
| 14:13.46 | smr | Error. [A]bort, [R]etry, [I]gnore? |
| 14:14.28 | DannyB | jbq: whoosh |
| 14:14.34 | DannyB | jbq: that was the point |
| 14:14.35 | Disconnect | DannyB: amusing legal-writing story.. wif was getting divorced and her ex-mother-in-law was all paranoid (they bought a couple acres in tx, were "about to strike huge oil" etc) so she insisted they use her lawyer. commercial real-estate lawyer. in the end it cost her 5x as much, took almost a year, and my wif STILL could have taken everything he ever owned. (the first version - not even draft! - was so bad it wasn't even legally a divorce decree..) |
| 14:14.55 | DannyB | not surprising |
| 14:15.07 | DannyB | my wife is a divorce attorney |
| 14:15.10 | DannyB | so i've seen stuff like this |
| 14:15.34 | Disconnect | there wasn't anything contested, it was a simple "you keep your car, i keep the cats, etc" sort of thing. |
| 14:15.53 | Disconnect | if it wasn't in VA they literally could have done it w/o a lawyer at all.. |
| 14:15.55 | smr | those are the easiest. That's how mine was |
| 14:16.02 | DannyB | interesting fact: In a lot of states, you can't get divorced without having grounds |
| 14:16.08 | Disconnect | btw you saw that link right? |
| 14:16.08 | DannyB | IE you can't get divorced simply because you want to |
| 14:16.19 | smr | DannyB: Right, Illinois (where I live) is a grounds state. |
| 14:16.30 | DannyB | Disconnect: yes. I included it. thanks. When mountain view wakes up we'll see what happens :) |
| 14:16.34 | Disconnect | cool |
| 14:17.05 | smr | That's why lawyers came up with the idea of "Irreconcilable differences" |
| 14:17.14 | DannyB | and "separate and apart" |
| 14:17.35 | *** join/#android famast1 (n=famast@host-208-68-238-61.biznesshosting.net) |
| 14:17.43 | unix_lappy | DannyB: even worse, in texas common law is an absolute pain. |
| 14:17.57 | smr | When I got divorced my grounds were "My wife is a cheating ho bag." |
| 14:18.12 | *** join/#android BBHoss (n=bbhoss@c-68-62-170-33.hsd1.al.comcast.net) |
| 14:18.14 | *** join/#android duncanfoo (n=chatzill@stjhnf0131w-142162020167.pppoe-dynamic.nl.aliant.net) |
| 14:18.17 | Disconnect | lol |
| 14:21.31 | neekers | in the android market, can 2 developers have the same name? |
| 14:21.47 | neekers | or is it unique? |
| 14:21.55 | michaelnovakjr | neekers: you can... mine is Google :) |
| 14:21.56 | *** join/#android BBHoss_ (n=bbhoss@c-68-62-170-33.hsd1.al.comcast.net) |
| 14:22.03 | neekers | heh |
| 14:22.09 | michaelnovakjr | not really sure though :) |
| 14:22.22 | neekers | i wonder how long that name will last |
| 14:24.20 | *** join/#android satadru (n=satadru@nyc-server.integrativenutrition.com) |
| 14:25.06 | tmccrary | ooh, looks like the t-mobile store I bought my G1 at never actually put my data plan on |
| 14:25.19 | Disconnect | niiiice |
| 14:25.34 | tmccrary | even though we discussed what plan to get and features I want everything |
| 14:25.45 | Disconnect | and fyi evidently my wif convinced the 611 people to leave us on the existing family plan instead of forcing us to a g1-specific plan :) |
| 14:25.46 | jasonchen | trigatch4: i am now. what's up? |
| 14:26.05 | Disconnect | tmccrary: that seems to happen with some regularity. i suspect there's a workflow problem.. |
| 14:26.06 | Dougie187 | tmccrary: well at least you are getting it taken care of? |
| 14:26.40 | Dougie187 | Disconnect: or that tmobile store employees are morons.. which is probably more likely. |
| 14:27.02 | languish | they're just underpaid and undertrained |
| 14:27.13 | Disconnect | Dougie187: yes and no. its still a workflow issue if it doesn't flag it "why are you selling a voice-only plan on a data phone, are you sure"... |
| 14:27.30 | Dougie187 | i guess thats true. |
| 14:27.51 | Dougie187 | languish: i wouldn't say they are underpaid... its not like they do a whole lot... they just sell cell phones. |
| 14:28.04 | languish | the majority of them barely do that |
| 14:28.21 | languish | those are the revolving door employees |
| 14:28.28 | languish | they don't earn much commission |
| 14:28.34 | languish | they're not motivated |
| 14:28.39 | languish | and barely trained |
| 14:28.53 | Dougie187 | its like a mcdonalds job. |
| 14:29.03 | Dougie187 | i mean it sucks that they aren't trained. but i don't think they are underpaid. |
| 14:29.10 | languish | look at the stories of how so many of the ones expected to anser G1 questions, were giving a total of 15 minutes with a G1 |
| 14:29.12 | Dougie187 | it seems like a minimum wage job to me. |
| 14:29.28 | michaelnovakjr | yea Dougie187 i agree |
| 14:29.29 | languish | to me, minimum wage is not a living wage |
| 14:29.32 | duncanfoo | does anyone know if the G1 is locked? |
| 14:29.37 | tmccrary | great, I have to do a "master reset" on my phone, because data still doesn't work after they enabled it |
| 14:29.40 | languish | and if you're not earning a living wage, why care about your job |
| 14:30.08 | Dougie187 | languish: that implies that the employees are independant. i would expect highschool students to work in a tmobile store. |
| 14:30.39 | languish | work is work, if you don't pay even a highschool student a fair wage, don't expect them to take the work seriously. |
| 14:31.26 | Dougie187 | any wage is fair for a highschool student. |
| 14:31.32 | Dougie187 | they have almost no expenses. |
| 14:31.50 | Dougie187 | so their wage is almost 100% pure income. |
| 14:31.56 | smr | why is it the employer's business what the employee's expenses are? |
| 14:31.56 | Tauno | sorry for being a little on-topic here but KeyEvent has two separate constants KEYCODE_CLEAR and KEYCODE_DEL - I can see the del key on the keyboard (emulator) but where's the key that triggers KEYCODE_CLEAR? :) and what's the difference between them? |
| 14:32.11 | *** join/#android tmarble (n=tmarble@user-38q4e4l.cable.mindspring.com) |
| 14:32.17 | Dougie187 | smr: well, noones going to work at a company that pays less then cost of living. |
| 14:32.25 | Dougie187 | unless they have no expenses. |
| 14:32.28 | smr | Would it be fair for my boss to come to me and say: "Patrick, since you've got no kids and almost no debt, we're gonna cut your pay." |
| 14:32.33 | languish | Dougie187, a significant number of HS students that would work in a tmo store, tend to be dropouts trying to make it on their own |
| 14:32.38 | zhobbs | Tauno: on the phone it's alt + del |
| 14:32.39 | Dougie187 | smr: no not at all. |
| 14:32.52 | zhobbs | Tauno: it clears the whole EditText you're focused in |
| 14:33.03 | Dougie187 | languish: well, thats their fault. i don't think tmobile needs to pay them more because they dropped out of highschool. |
| 14:33.16 | Tauno | zhobbs, thanks! :) |
| 14:33.34 | languish | Dougie187, no, t-mobile needs to pay them more to take their job seriously. |
| 14:33.42 | Dougie187 | languish: thats kinda the point. if they drop out of highschool, things are not going to be as easy. |
| 14:33.43 | famast1 | i have a family member who works for tmoible, she gets well paid |
| 14:33.47 | smr | I just don't think that one's expenses should ever be a part of the "fair pay" equasion unless that employee's expenses are increased because of the work he does |
| 14:33.54 | Dougie187 | famast1: is she a sales person in the store? |
| 14:34.29 | Dougie187 | smr: i agree if you are referring to personal expenses, but i think a reasonable company needs to consider cost of living for their salary ranges. |
| 14:34.31 | languish | t-mobile store managers actually pay different employees at different rates, based on what they can get away with paying someone to do the job |
| 14:34.41 | famast1 | she was at one point, made it to manager now |
| 14:34.42 | languish | so if someone's desperate, they WILL take advantage of them |
| 14:34.53 | jbq | Pay is fair if both the employee and the employer get more out of the relationship then they invest in it - that's a free market. |
| 14:34.55 | languish | and if you think they all pay standard corporate office set wages, you're wrong |
| 14:34.59 | *** join/#android elementz (n=elementz@78.52.128.233) |
| 14:35.04 | elementz | hi everybody |
| 14:35.10 | Dougie187 | smr: but i don't think a company should create a salary based on an individual expense report. |
| 14:35.12 | famast1 | selling phones was commision, so your either good or not |
| 14:35.13 | smr | Cost of living of course, but to discriminate against people who have lower cost of living is not fair |
| 14:35.25 | famast1 | also it depends on how busy the store is |
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| 14:35.52 | languish | if you open up a business in a low traffic location, you fail |
| 14:35.52 | elementz | are there any devices as of yet, to which the android os has been ported? |
| 14:35.55 | Dougie187 | languish: either way, i wouldn't say tmobile employees being underpaid is an issue. |
| 14:35.58 | smr | Man, I hope dalvik is fast... I have a feeling my renderer is going to be too slow |
| 14:36.08 | languish | your employees shouldn't suffer for your own poor choices |
| 14:36.11 | famast1 | what was the issue? I missed it all |
| 14:36.36 | languish | Dougie187, I disagree, knowing a few of them, I see how it is. |
| 14:36.40 | Dougie187 | famast1: we were discussing tmobiles recent increase in mistakes when setting up new accounts (for the g1 in particular) |
| 14:36.41 | smr | Once I get to optimizing I think I'm going to have to make a lot of compromises |
| 14:36.53 | Dougie187 | famast1: languish mentioned it was because they were underpaid and undertrained. |
| 14:37.04 | languish | That's part fo the reason. |
| 14:37.05 | famast1 | its not just the employee that suffers, the entire chain will suffer in low areas.. But employees have can try to move or just quit |
| 14:37.07 | languish | *of |
| 14:37.11 | Dougie187 | i agree in the undertrained, but i feel underpaid doesn't have anything to do with it. |
| 14:37.14 | famast1 | ohhh |
| 14:37.17 | famast1 | probably so |
| 14:37.49 | languish | t-mobile store sales employees do quit, all the time.. it's a revolving door position with high churn |
| 14:38.03 | Dougie187 | languish: like almost any other sale person job. |
| 14:38.04 | languish | which is why people get such poor service from them |
| 14:38.10 | languish | there's no incentive to stay |
| 14:38.10 | Dougie187 | languish: based on commission that is. |
| 14:38.19 | languish | right |
| 14:38.30 | languish | and the salary structure is the point of failure |
| 14:38.35 | D0nets | hey guys |
| 14:38.36 | D0nets | http://www.jars.com/multimedia/sound/resource.php/32929 |
| 14:38.42 | D0nets | how hard would it be to bring that to android? |
| 14:38.48 | famast1 | actually from what i've heard by others tmobile has decent sales support, here is why: |
| 14:38.58 | Dougie187 | languish: no, i think its personal motivation. maybe these people don't care to do what they are doing. or they don't know how. so they just give up. |
| 14:39.17 | Dougie187 | languish: maybe its just a job, so they treat it as, just a job. |
| 14:39.18 | famast1 | you will get commision on your sale, but if the customer does not stay for 13 months, they take the money back |
| 14:39.30 | languish | "they don't know how" = proper hiring and training |
| 14:39.33 | Dougie187 | famast1: how do they take your money back? |
| 14:39.34 | tmccrary | D0nets: the hardest stuff should require little to no porting. i.e. signal analysis |
| 14:39.39 | famast1 | through your paycheck |
| 14:39.46 | Dougie187 | languish: you can't teach someone to be a good sales person. |
| 14:39.57 | tmccrary | but the gui code and sound capture code will probably need to be redone |
| 14:40.09 | Dougie187 | languish: you can teach someone about the phone and the process, but not how to actually sell the product. |
| 14:40.09 | famast1 | ok i better get back to work myself :) |
| 14:40.13 | languish | Dougie187, no, but you can teach them to do basic paperwork and answer questions about your products properly |
| 14:40.30 | Dougie187 | languish: true. and i agree, these places do a poor job of that. |
| 14:40.31 | famast1 | I know they handed out the g1 to at least manager level early, but not THAT early |
| 14:40.36 | D0nets | tmcrary how long would it take a single experienced java developer? |
| 14:41.01 | languish | and if customers stopped getting "lied to" by undertrained revolving door reps they'd get pissed off less often |
| 14:41.23 | famast1 | another big thing to consider is if your realling going to a "real" tmobile store or a 3rd party who just has a tmobile sign |
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| 14:41.46 | languish | famast1, yes that is another issue. poor oversight of the master dealers and resellers |
| 14:41.53 | languish | but that goes with training practices |
| 14:41.55 | Dougie187 | famast1: i think we are talking about real tmobile stores. |
| 14:41.58 | languish | you train, and review |
| 14:42.05 | Disconnect | for the record, i finally got a useful answer from amazon. if you get a corrupted mp3, just "buy it" again and it'll redownload without charging. |
| 14:42.16 | famast1 | yes, that would be my family members biggest complaint. She gets more customers complaining about being ripped off when they went to a "tmobile store" when it ends up not really being one |
| 14:43.06 | famast1 | theres rules about the type of signs the 3rd party can display, but I guess it just kinds gets looked over |
| 14:43.33 | languish | the culture at t-mobile stores on the east coast at least, is competitive between employees which is fine, but insufficient support structure to help the employees to be competitive vs the one guy that works part time that knows his shit and wracks up sales |
| 14:44.00 | Tauno | d0nets, depends on how the signal processing is done.. if this part is compatible with the API's that Android has, then the UI porting (if you don't want it to look exactly as it does :P) would take a day max I guess. |
| 14:44.19 | languish | while "that guy" is a role model, the average employee isn't paid enough to "deal with his shit, and the managers shit" while not being trained properly |
| 14:44.32 | famast1 | sounds about right |
| 14:44.34 | famast1 | is there a channel more specific to android development? |
| 14:44.42 | Dougie187 | famast1: thats what this is. |
| 14:44.45 | jbq | #android-dev |
| 14:44.45 | famast1 | ok |
| 14:44.46 | michaelnovakjr | haha |
| 14:44.49 | Dougie187 | famast1: we jt got side tracked. |
| 14:44.52 | Dougie187 | just* |
| 14:44.55 | languish | my bad :) |
| 14:45.22 | michaelnovakjr | someone should start #android-bs |
| 14:45.25 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 14:45.28 | famast1 | I know, I just hear alot of general android talk here (which is fine by me, just wanted to know if there was something more specific) |
| 14:45.30 | Dougie187 | or #tmobile-bs |
| 14:45.55 | famast1 | I think it should be split like the google groups |
| 14:46.07 | duncanfoo | anyone know whether you can put another carriers SIM into a g1, and have it work? (ie: rogers) |
| 14:46.12 | languish | #androidchat |
| 14:46.12 | Dougie187 | lol google could take over IRC as well |
| 14:46.20 | languish | is there |
| 14:46.34 | michaelnovakjr | languish: i like #android-bs better ;) |
| 14:46.39 | languish | lol |
| 14:46.48 | michaelnovakjr | it really is a fitting name |
| 14:46.51 | languish | i don't like channels with dashes :/ |
| 14:46.53 | languish | lol |
| 14:46.53 | tmccrary | great, my data service works now! |
| 14:46.54 | RyeBrye | Google would only take over IRC if they could inject ads into your channels every once in a while... |
| 14:46.57 | RyeBrye | :) |
| 14:46.59 | tmccrary | and 3g just came online in my area |
| 14:47.10 | languish | tmccrary sweet |
| 14:47.34 | tmccrary | I wasn't really expecting it until the end of Nov |
| 14:47.44 | tmccrary | and now it official starts in detroit on monday |
| 14:47.51 | tmccrary | but its already up |
| 14:48.05 | Dougie187 | RyeBrye: thats what ChanServ could be used for. |
| 14:48.13 | Dougie187 | every hour dump an ad in here. |
| 14:48.18 | RyeBrye | :) |
| 14:48.27 | RyeBrye | I was thinkng it would pm them to people |
| 14:48.33 | Dougie187 | "Go out and by colemann's butt paste today! Only 3.99 at www.walmart.com" |
| 14:49.01 | Dougie187 | then you click on walmart and it takes you to some other random retarded site that has nothing to do with walmart. |
| 14:49.04 | RyeBrye | like "Pardon me, but when you said 'lol, yu n00b, stfu!' it reminded me of this site: www.blahblahblab.com " |
| 14:49.11 | Dougie187 | just like the sponsored links in google. |
| 14:49.36 | RyeBrye | But an actually good application would be an intelligent bot that would listen and gather a FAQ together |
| 14:49.45 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 14:49.47 | RyeBrye | and would automatically paste google links into the chat room for people |
| 14:49.55 | jbq | and auto-post the most savor bits to bash.org |
| 14:49.56 | RyeBrye | so that the google links would handle the monetization |
| 14:50.03 | jbq | s/savor/savory/ |
| 14:50.06 | michaelnovakjr | file this conversation under #android-bs |
| 14:50.11 | michaelnovakjr | :) |
| 14:50.15 | Dougie187 | michaelnovakjr: filed* |
| 14:50.23 | RyeBrye | So when people come in and say: "hey, does the G1 have a nuclear explosive device embedded in it?" |
| 14:50.35 | michaelnovakjr | RyeBrye: #android-bs |
| 14:50.39 | michaelnovakjr | its like the /dev/null |
| 14:50.46 | RyeBrye | Yeah, that works too |
| 14:50.53 | Dougie187 | michaelnovakjr: do you have a better conversation? |
| 14:50.58 | michaelnovakjr | haha, nope :) |
| 14:51.07 | Dougie187 | michaelnovakjr: then don't complain. lol |
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| 14:51.43 | michaelnovakjr | haha |
| 14:51.53 | *** join/#android cbeust_ (n=cbeust@72.14.224.1) |
| 14:52.48 | Dougie187 | tomorrow = ubuntu party |
| 14:52.52 | Dougie187 | everyone joining? |
| 14:52.56 | michaelnovakjr | yea! |
| 14:53.27 | michaelnovakjr | i'm already there! |
| 14:53.38 | Dougie187 | #ubuntu-party |
| 14:53.38 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 14:53.41 | michaelnovakjr | haha |
| 14:53.59 | Dougie187 | i wonder if thats a real room... |
| 14:54.18 | Dougie187 | omg 3 whole people! |
| 14:54.55 | RyeBrye | The party was getting crowded |
| 14:55.16 | Dougie187 | yeah... us nerds make a room stink pretty quick. |
| 14:55.30 | michaelnovakjr | :) |
| 14:55.40 | languish | damn ubuntu-lemonpartys |
| 14:55.55 | languish | :| |
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| 14:56.15 | languish | ok on that note, time to go find some food |
| 14:57.24 | neekers | tootles |
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| 15:03.04 | __Alex | Anyone know how to rebuild a single app package in the android source code? There isn't a makefile in the app's directory and there isn't an ant script (build.xml), like I've been using to build my own packages. |
| 15:03.52 | __Alex | I certainly don't want to wait while it processes the whole damn thing, to find it only needs to build that one application. |
| 15:04.18 | jbq | Android.mk is a makefile, actually. |
| 15:04.26 | jbq | (but it won't work in isolation) |
| 15:05.05 | jbq | I think you're looking for the 'mm' and 'mmm' commands, which are installed by running build/envsetup.sh - but I'm not actually familiar with them. |
| 15:05.58 | muthu_ | its a pita to build everything |
| 15:06.15 | jbq | You only have to do it once, though. |
| 15:06.38 | muthu_ | still, build in isolation would be nice |
| 15:07.02 | __Alex | I don't see mm within the kernel tree, but it isn't a standalone program. |
| 15:07.04 | michaelnovakjr | muthu, its easy :) |
| 15:07.06 | __Alex | err, do |
| 15:07.19 | muthu_ | michaelnovakjr: how? |
| 15:07.22 | jbq | I think it's installed in your shell environment. |
| 15:07.23 | __Alex | Well, it was as easy as "make", it just took a long time. |
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| 15:07.45 | Dougie187 | muthu_: pita's are awesome |
| 15:07.49 | Dougie187 | muthu_: have you ever been to pita pit? |
| 15:07.52 | muthu_ | hehe |
| 15:08.32 | *** join/#android cbeust (n=cbeust@72.14.224.1) |
| 15:09.20 | __Alex | It annoys me that they have a preference to turn off the camera's shutter sound and there is an obvious place to use it within Camera.java, but it's commented out. |
| 15:14.14 | tmccrary | that's some kind of privacy thing isn't it? |
| 15:14.20 | d0nets | hey how do i make a code.google.com/p/page |
| 15:14.21 | tmccrary | so people in the area know you're taking pictures |
| 15:14.28 | d0nets | im going to make this guitar app i think |
| 15:14.36 | d0nets | i have a guy that will help |
| 15:14.38 | *** join/#android inZane- (i=nemo@dslb-084-058-064-183.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 15:14.59 | d0nets | he actually just interviewed for a job at htc |
| 15:15.10 | tmccrary | rtfm |
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| 15:16.23 | d0nets | what should i call it? |
| 15:16.40 | Tauno | DroidTuner :P |
| 15:16.56 | d0nets | gootar tuner? |
| 15:17.13 | d0nets | lol |
| 15:17.35 | d0nets | i dont think we can use droid can we ? |
| 15:18.01 | d0nets | i thought i read an article where a guy had a conflict with google over using a reference to android |
| 15:18.06 | languish | d03boy, wait for DannyB to come back with an answer on that tomorrow |
| 15:18.16 | languish | I asked him about it today |
| 15:18.27 | languish | (i wasn;t the guy in the article) |
| 15:18.27 | Tauno | sure you can.,, it's not like google is going to sue a poor guy who made an opesource small app and used HALF a word that google uses ;) |
| 15:18.52 | languish | Tauno, #4 http://www.android.com/branding.html |
| 15:19.31 | languish | granted, DannyB's going to see if he can get it changed without affecting the strength of their brand |
| 15:19.45 | languish | rather the legal hold on it |
| 15:19.51 | Tauno | sure, they are saying it on their page.. but they won't use this against you in this case.. I mean.. they are human being too @ google :) |
| 15:20.05 | d0nets | TuneDroid ? |
| 15:20.33 | languish | Tauno, the law doesn't work that way, if they don't act to protect their IP they lose the ability to do so. though again, DannyB's going to see what they can do about it |
| 15:20.44 | *** join/#android wizkoder (n=markus@host197a.e-pro.de) |
| 15:20.55 | wizkoder | hy everybody |
| 15:21.06 | cbeust | Yes, you should probably avoid using "droid" |
| 15:21.11 | d0nets | shiese |
| 15:21.16 | d0nets | i think tunedroid would have been great |
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| 15:21.25 | *** mode/#android [+o morrildl] by ChanServ |
| 15:21.50 | d0nets | ok what about Gootar Tuner? |
| 15:21.52 | Disconnect | could be worse. istr that in the 90s a company tried to protect "e*" (as in "eMachine" and "eLearning" and all the rest of that crap) |
| 15:22.17 | languish | d0nets, Dr10dTuner |
| 15:22.23 | languish | :) |
| 15:22.29 | d0nets | haha |
| 15:22.46 | languish | that's sufficiently non-derivitive imo |
| 15:23.11 | wizkoder | just started reading about the android project. is there an x server, sdl and g++ that I could use for development? or only java stuff? |
| 15:23.12 | languish | but IANAL |
| 15:23.15 | cbeust | As for "big companies not suing the lonely guy", it's usually not true |
| 15:23.19 | d0nets | how about Guitar Tuner ? |
| 15:23.26 | cbeust | companies have to enforce their copyright everywhere or they might lose it |
| 15:23.34 | romainguy | muthu_: __Alex : to build one app, type mmm path/to/the/app |
| 15:23.35 | romainguy | that's it |
| 15:23.40 | romainguy | not very difficult :) |
| 15:23.58 | languish | appearently Tauno's mad at me for contradicting him |
| 15:24.04 | Delvien | wizkoder: from what i understand android is linux but its applications are not |
| 15:24.28 | eldenz | so if android is the OS.. t-mobile the carrier.. what do you call the phone? G1? HTC Dream? |
| 15:24.38 | Delvien | g1 |
| 15:24.41 | languish | the current phone is the T-mobile G1 |
| 15:24.44 | Tauno | languish, yeah I heard rumors about the law you have there.. but is it really sane that an OS developer can deny anyone using some part of their trademark (or whatever) name? I mean.. for example Micfosoft - look how many products end or start with *soft or *micro that run on Microsofts OS :) |
| 15:24.46 | languish | there will be other android phones |
| 15:25.17 | eldenz | unfortunately in my country there is no such thing as current.. only future :p |
| 15:25.22 | languish | Tauno, I made that same argument :) regardless, the little guy can't afford the legal bills even if he wins. |
| 15:25.44 | eldenz | so i'm probably gonna write some mails to my carrier and ask for teh G1 |
| 15:25.55 | languish | eldenz, good call :) |
| 15:26.08 | eldenz | let them know there is request :p |
| 15:26.09 | languish | but only do it if you're developing for it |
| 15:26.23 | languish | it;s not the best hardware for just having it |
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| 15:26.34 | languish | it's cool, but it has issues |
| 15:26.42 | Tauno | ok, I have no idea how things work in your contry, but If I get sued, I'm given a defending lawyer for free (if I loose the case, then I have to pay) |
| 15:26.46 | Tauno | :) |
| 15:27.08 | cbeust | Tauno: isn't this only for criminal law? |
| 15:27.08 | languish | Tauno, here you only get the free lawyer if it's criminal court |
| 15:27.18 | eldenz | languish, i have been waiting for thousands of years for an opensource phone : ) sms could even be non-working i would be getting one :p |
| 15:27.19 | languish | lawsuits are civil court |
| 15:27.23 | cbeust | There you go |
| 15:27.25 | d0nets | hey what license do i need to choose for this app? |
| 15:27.36 | d0nets | my buddy said the source code im using is gnu |
| 15:27.37 | Delvien | gplv3 |
| 15:27.38 | Disconnect | eldenz: for a proper open phone you should get the moko.. |
| 15:27.50 | Disconnect | D0nets: if you use gpl its probably viral. |
| 15:27.53 | gdsx | eldenz: well, your carrier is highly unlikely to get a G1, given that it's T-mobile's phone |
| 15:27.56 | cbeust | d03boy: Avoid GPL and LGPL, Apache is good |
| 15:27.58 | d0nets | viral? |
| 15:28.02 | Delvien | moko sux though |
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| 15:28.17 | languish | eldenz, the G1 is not an open source phone. The hardware is not open source. there ARE open source devices, the G1 is not one of them. The OS (android) is *mostly* open source. |
| 15:28.17 | Disconnect | D0nets: viral == expands to cover the project that uses the code |
| 15:28.28 | Tauno | it's for every case AFAIK.. so you just can't sue random poor people because they don't have the money to defend them.. but either way.. I don't have experienced this myself so I can't say for sure |
| 15:28.38 | eldenz | Disconnect, i might said it wrong... i want a smartphone with the features the G1 has for which i /can/ develop apps myself without too much of a hassle |
| 15:29.03 | Disconnect | iphone is available in way more countries/providers and you can dev apps |
| 15:29.06 | gdsx | eldenz: the closest you'll get, most likely, is if HTC sells the same handset to your carrier |
| 15:29.07 | languish | eldenz, as I said, if you're developing apps for android, then it's cool to get the G1 to test them on :) |
| 15:29.29 | eldenz | gdsx, hmm, that's bad news then.. but i'll ask anyway for some android powered phones |
| 15:29.54 | languish | eldenz, but you have to make sure you can access a t-mobile account.. because the phone has to be "initialized" with a working t-mobile SIM card and account each time it's fully reset (master reset) |
| 15:29.57 | eldenz | Disconnect, problem with iphone is you need a mac to code apps, afaik |
| 15:30.12 | loke | gdsx: I've started to believe that HTC actually doesn't want to tupport Android, and that is the reason G1 is only sold by the carrier |
| 15:30.38 | loke | if that is the case, we'll never see an HTC phone with android |
| 15:30.42 | cutmasta | uh, asus wants also an android device |
| 15:30.44 | cutmasta | nice |
| 15:31.00 | languish | loke, the carriers still control the game |
| 15:31.03 | gdsx | loke: the G1 is T-mobile's phone. The hardware itself is not called G1 |
| 15:31.09 | loke | languish: no |
| 15:31.27 | gdsx | loke: and as for whether there will be future HTC Android phones, only time will tell |
| 15:31.55 | languish | there are two non-htc comnpanies that have announced android phones |
| 15:31.57 | loke | languish: the carriers only do stuff like that in the US, but even in the US you can usually (except for the G1 and Iphone) always buy a normal phone directly from, say, Nokia |
| 15:31.59 | eldenz | Disconnect, and i have my problems with apple (although they create nice and well working things). but they put stones in your way over and over for which you even pay. i just don't like their philosophy sometimes |
| 15:32.02 | loke | and then they will not be neutered |
| 15:32.20 | Disconnect | eldenz: then you'll hate the g1 philosophy... |
| 15:32.32 | eldenz | why Disconnect? :) |
| 15:33.08 | loke | gdsx: I really nike the HTC hardware for the phones, but I just can't stand windows ce |
| 15:33.18 | Disconnect | eldenz: cuz its a closed phone. no reflashing (so no platform changes that don't come from tmobile), no replacing built-in apps, bunch of google-only apis, no root.. |
| 15:33.20 | languish | eldenz, currently, for the G1, you can only develop for the java userspace. You CANNOT (yet anyway) flash the firmware with your own modded version of android |
| 15:33.33 | d0nets | what license should i choose if i want the tuner to be free, but eventually make a pay version with chords and metronome and such? |
| 15:34.07 | cbeust | d0nets: again, Apache is a good fit for this |
| 15:34.10 | loke | d0nets: free as in freedom or free as in no cost? |
| 15:34.18 | d0nets | no cost |
| 15:34.20 | loke | (and freedom for whom?) |
| 15:34.35 | d0nets | well i could leave the tuner open source |
| 15:34.36 | loke | d0nets: an no cost. then just normal commercial licensing |
| 15:34.38 | eldenz | oh too bad ;< but anyway, i'm comparing it to the iPhone which limits me even more i think |
| 15:34.46 | loke | d0nets: just license your limited version at 0 cost |
| 15:34.46 | Disconnect | cbeust: apache is terrible for that.. |
| 15:34.57 | marcone | if you're not open sourcing it, what do you need a license for? If you *are* open sourcing it, good luck making any money off it :) |
| 15:35.03 | d0nets | could i make the tuner open, and when it evolves to fit the needs, add the other features in a pro version and profit off of it? |
| 15:35.20 | Disconnect | and remember, regardless of license, you can do what you want with it as well. gpl doesn't bind you, for example, if its 100% your original work. |
| 15:35.49 | d0nets | its source code from a java tuner with gnu license |
| 15:35.54 | Disconnect | D0nets: yep. but that means you have to be amazingly anal about patches and contributions from teh world - they -must- assign copyright and all interests to you or you can't do the pro .. |
| 15:36.03 | languish | hrm |
| 15:36.06 | gdsx | d0nets: then derivative works need to be licensed similarly |
| 15:36.11 | loke | d0nets: if it's GPL, then you have to license it as GPL too. There is no way around that |
| 15:36.18 | Disconnect | whats "a gnu license"? gpl? lgpl? some other license? but you have to work within their license |
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| 15:36.35 | d0nets | so i have to use gnu? |
| 15:36.48 | languish | if you use code protected by gnu, yes |
| 15:36.49 | cbeust | Don't. |
| 15:36.50 | d0nets | my buddy said its really basic code |
| 15:36.53 | d0nets | and he would be rewriting it |
| 15:36.57 | d0nets | and i could use my own license |
| 15:37.03 | Delvien | gpl = gnu public license |
| 15:37.04 | gdsx | d0nets: ask him to pick a more reasonable license? |
| 15:37.14 | languish | lol |
| 15:37.15 | duncanfoo | does anyone know how to tell eclipse to debug as android application all the time? |
| 15:37.16 | d0nets | ok |
| 15:37.23 | duncanfoo | instead of asking me? |
| 15:37.28 | d0nets | so gplv3 will work if i want to make a pro version later |
| 15:37.34 | d0nets | using the open tuner as a base? |
| 15:37.38 | Tauno | d0nets, the code uses javax.sound.sampled.* sure you can work around it in Android that easily? |
| 15:37.40 | Delvien | gpl1 gpl3 its all gnu licence |
| 15:37.54 | d0nets | he said so |
| 15:37.57 | d0nets | but im not sure |
| 15:38.13 | d0nets | but there are other tuners out there, we can get an idea of it |
| 15:38.20 | gdsx | d0nets: no, by "more reasonable" I meant "not GPL, and not LGPL" |
| 15:38.40 | d0nets | arg so what do you suggest gdsx |
| 15:38.44 | Disconnect | D0nets: "someday i'll not be stealing" doesn't fly in licensing disputes |
| 15:38.54 | gdsx | d0nets: something BSD/MIT/Apache-like |
| 15:39.10 | gdsx | d0nets: it'll likely be informative for you to read some of the licenses: opensource.org |
| 15:39.11 | romainguy | hmmm BSD \o/ |
| 15:39.20 | d0nets | yea im gnub |
| 15:39.32 | d0nets | i didnt know creating a google code page was so complicated |
| 15:39.34 | d0nets | can i change it later? |
| 15:39.35 | d0nets | lol |
| 15:39.49 | duncanfoo | how about you get the app working, and then decide what you want to do with respect to licensing ;) |
| 15:40.19 | d0nets | well like i said, im creating a google code page just for organization |
| 15:40.30 | gdsx | duncanfoo: the parts d0nets uses will dictate what license he uses, if he's using other code |
| 15:40.32 | duncanfoo | and? |
| 15:40.34 | d0nets | and to claim the comain |
| 15:40.36 | d0nets | domain |
| 15:40.38 | duncanfoo | well, those can be replaced |
| 15:40.39 | gdsx | duncanfoo: which is why it's important to decide licensing stuff now |
| 15:40.41 | d0nets | and it asks what license, but can i change it later? |
| 15:40.43 | duncanfoo | disagree |
| 15:41.08 | duncanfoo | the most important thing is to get something going |
| 15:41.22 | duncanfoo | you can spend all day in talks about licensing, when the important thing the app |
| 15:41.23 | michaelnovakjr | yes |
| 15:41.32 | michaelnovakjr | and keep in mind google code is for open source :) |
| 15:41.36 | duncanfoo | typical delaying tacting ;) |
| 15:41.39 | duncanfoo | tactic even |
| 15:41.40 | d0nets | like i asked, cam i able to change the license once i get it working? |
| 15:41.50 | d0nets | can* |
| 15:41.51 | duncanfoo | you can do whatever you like if its your code ;) |
| 15:41.52 | d0nets | no |
| 15:41.53 | d0nets | am* |
| 15:42.05 | ieatlint | technically if you specify a licence on google code, and upload code to it that the public can reach, it constitutes releasing the code under that licence |
| 15:42.19 | ieatlint | so if you "change your mind later" you could run into trouble |
| 15:42.24 | d0nets | right, im trying to figure out what license |
| 15:42.27 | duncanfoo | not really |
| 15:42.28 | d0nets | but it seams like i need to read |
| 15:42.34 | duncanfoo | version X of the code |
| 15:42.37 | duncanfoo | is released under that license |
| 15:42.40 | duncanfoo | if you are the only contributor |
| 15:42.56 | duncanfoo | then there is no issue in changing the licensing to whatever you like |
| 15:43.05 | Disconnect | ieatlint: you can change your mind for a new version. you can even change your initial terms - remember that gpl (for example) applies to the person distributing. if you otherwise own all the rights, you are not bound by that. |
| 15:43.19 | duncanfoo | if you use other components, then you have to be sure your license is compatible with that license |
| 15:43.20 | ieatlint | Disconnect, kinda |
| 15:43.27 | ieatlint | you can't rescind the gpl |
| 15:43.37 | Disconnect | eg witness spring, which just went "paid" for new patches/versions |
| 15:43.42 | duncanfoo | you cannot change the license of an already released piece of code.. you can re-release hte code under a new version |
| 15:43.49 | michaelnovakjr | this is kinda a stupid conversation to have for software that isn't written yet |
| 15:43.52 | duncanfoo | indeed |
| 15:43.55 | duncanfoo | like I said |
| 15:43.59 | duncanfoo | write the code, and then worry about the license |
| 15:44.00 | ieatlint | licence fights always are :) |
| 15:44.09 | Disconnect | you can change the license by not distributing it or by changing the terms for NEW DISTRIBUTIONS. what you can't do is tell someone who already has it "btw, give it back" |
| 15:44.28 | Disconnect | (new distributions as new downloads/copies/emails/whatever method its sent by..) |
| 15:45.05 | Disconnect | 1.0 gpl .. 1.1 (even with no code changes) MyCommercialRocksLicense .. but you have to own the code, and it sounds like he doesn't. |
| 15:45.31 | ieatlint | correct... but 1.0 would still be gpl |
| 15:45.41 | languish | also, if you cause confusion, you can inadvertantly invalidate parts of your licensing. as someone could claim you weren't comitted to your licensing |
| 15:45.46 | Disconnect | only for those people who already have it. |
| 15:46.04 | ieatlint | well, those who have it can redistribute it though |
| 15:46.09 | Disconnect | if i release 1.0 right now as gpl, and nobody downloads it, i can change it with no worries at all. if 1 person downloads it, i can still change it and say "tough luck" |
| 15:46.15 | Disconnect | ieatlint: exactly |
| 15:46.26 | RyeBrye | Yep. But you could still even have a 1.0 version that was both GPL and also another license - a lot of companies will do the "community" / "enterprise" versions of stuff where they have all contributors give them rights to the code - and they then have the dual license option |
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| 15:46.29 | Disconnect | for that matter though, and this is fun, i can release 1.0 under the gpl for $200. |
| 15:46.42 | Disconnect | RyeBrye: thats what i hate about libqt in fact. |
| 15:46.44 | RyeBrye | someone can obviously fork the GPL version |
| 15:46.57 | RyeBrye | Yeah, dual licensing gets confusing |
| 15:47.02 | Disconnect | qpe requires per-device licensing.. so your apps are either gpl or you pay something like $25 per installation. |
| 15:47.03 | ieatlint | yeah, i'm not a huge fan of the gpl because of stupid shit like that |
| 15:47.04 | cbeust | The problem with gpl is that pretty much nobody will be able to reuse your code, especially companies |
| 15:47.18 | duncanfoo | errr... |
| 15:47.21 | duncanfoo | that isn't a probem |
| 15:47.24 | duncanfoo | that is the goal |
| 15:47.26 | cbeust | Companies have frequently blanket bans on using gpl code and sometimes even lgpl |
| 15:47.31 | duncanfoo | you cannot reuse the code, unless your code is GPL |
| 15:47.43 | RyeBrye | Yeah, if you choose GPL you do it because you want only free stuff using it |
| 15:47.54 | RyeBrye | Or... Free stuff + TiVo's |
| 15:47.56 | duncanfoo | and the solution for that is dual licensing ;) |
| 15:47.56 | RyeBrye | ;) |
| 15:48.01 | ieatlint | duncanfoo, you can if you don't release it |
| 15:48.07 | duncanfoo | you can what? |
| 15:48.23 | ieatlint | RyeBrye, wrong, you have the option to only sell gpl code |
| 15:48.25 | michaelnovakjr | still having the same conversation? |
| 15:48.28 | ieatlint | even if you didn't write it |
| 15:48.32 | duncanfoo | and what is the point of code you don't release? :) |
| 15:48.37 | duncanfoo | you can look at the code... wow, that's cool |
| 15:48.37 | RyeBrye | Internal use |
| 15:48.40 | duncanfoo | beatiful code |
| 15:48.45 | ieatlint | the gpl says the code must be provided for free (or reasonable fee) to your customers |
| 15:48.47 | duncanfoo | depends on the structure of your organization |
| 15:48.53 | Disconnect | gpl doesn't cover web services particularly well.. |
| 15:48.58 | duncanfoo | most companies are not flat |
| 15:49.00 | michaelnovakjr | gpl doesn't say the software has to be free |
| 15:49.07 | michaelnovakjr | just that you have to provide the source to it |
| 15:49.07 | ieatlint | so i can go on the street corner and sell copies of linux for $100 a pop and tell anyone who wants it for free to fuck off |
| 15:49.16 | duncanfoo | and you cannot in particular distribute the GPL code to subsiduaries |
| 15:49.25 | duncanfoo | without violating the license |
| 15:49.26 | Disconnect | so you can take all the gpl code you want, mung it up with your proprietary bits and sell services from it. no problem until you ship actual cds or devices.. |
| 15:49.27 | RyeBrye | Yeah, but doesn't GPLV3 say that if your web software provides a download link that gets the source of that version, somoen modifying it wouldn't be able to get rid of that? |
| 15:49.27 | ieatlint | and if someone pays me $100, then i am obliged to provide them with the source on request |
| 15:49.39 | michaelnovakjr | yes |
| 15:49.40 | ieatlint | (And they can then redistribute that source for free independent of me) |
| 15:49.44 | languish | I respectfully request the respective developers to please return to their applications for the benefit of all and sundry |
| 15:49.47 | michaelnovakjr | yes |
| 15:49.53 | tmccrary | So has anyone got some kind of proxying/tethering setup working yet? |
| 15:50.06 | Disconnect | languish: i can't - IP problems. no coding @ work :) |
| 15:50.13 | dvyjones | Good local time everyone! |
| 15:50.17 | languish | Disconnect haha |
| 15:50.41 | Disconnect | (although i'm the sysadmin, all the nda/noncompete/etc stuff is for developers. and its doubly dangerous since our main app is java.) |
| 15:50.44 | RyeBrye | Disconnect - set up an SSH tunnel and do the coding on a home computer... place-shift coding! ;) |
| 15:50.52 | ieatlint | anyway, in general, just use the gpl unless you intend to make money off your program |
| 15:50.54 | Disconnect | hasn't so much as looked at the code, but its still not good. |
| 15:51.18 | RyeBrye | Ah, gotcha - your main ap does something in the same space as tethering on android would? |
| 15:51.28 | Disconnect | nope |
| 15:51.44 | RyeBrye | but your NDA / noncompete is like "Any code you write is OURS BITCH"? |
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| 15:51.50 | Disconnect | its just a very broad non-compete. besides, i'm @ work... any code i write at work, etc.. |
| 15:52.07 | Cedric2 | ieatlint: disagree. In general, just use any license you want except GPL :) |
| 15:52.19 | michaelnovakjr | ah |
| 15:52.19 | RyeBrye | Yeah, I gotcha |
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| 15:52.26 | michaelnovakjr | enough license talk :) |
| 15:52.35 | RyeBrye | I telecommute... So I guess... any time I am connected to my VPN I'm at work? |
| 15:52.41 | ieatlint | Cedric2, i'd probably agree with a lot of that... i tend to have issues with parts of the gpl |
| 15:52.42 | michaelnovakjr | its an infinite loop! |
| 15:52.58 | ieatlint | most religious wars are |
| 15:53.02 | ieatlint | next... vi vs emacs |
| 15:53.04 | Disconnect | notices that the various lawyers disappeared for this talk :) |
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| 15:53.21 | Cedric2 | ieatlint: it's really not that religious, 99% of the industry agrees that GPL is evil :) |
| 15:53.38 | languish | #licensing |
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| 15:53.53 | ieatlint | Cedric2, what would you recommend for an open source licence? (and this isn't a bait question, i'm honestly interested) |
| 15:54.03 | jbq | ASL2 |
| 15:54.25 | Cedric2 | ieatlint: Apache and BSD are reasonably safe and leave the door open to a lot of options |
| 15:54.32 | loke | Public Donain |
| 15:54.34 | loke | DOmain |
| 15:54.41 | andyross | Cedric2: if "the industry" in this context means the cell hardware industry, that's clearly true (although they get over it when needed, c.f. linux). Outside hardware vendors and carriers, folks are very accomodating. |
| 15:54.46 | Cedric2 | I hear the Eclipse license is decent too |
| 15:55.00 | Cedric2 | andyross: no I mean the software industry in general |
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| 15:55.17 | RyeBrye | I know a few projects that are using Creative Commons licenses for code - which are a bad fit IMO |
| 15:55.18 | Dj_Stress | luatio sus |
| 15:55.45 | michaelnovakjr | this conversation >> /dev/null |
| 15:55.49 | andyross | Then you're off base, in my experience. The GPL used to scare people c. 1996. These days it's very well understood and generally accepted. Only a bunch of BSD fanboien care, for the most part. |
| 15:56.25 | ieatlint | heh, yeah, there's a reason why CC uses non-CC licences for code |
| 15:56.35 | Cedric2 | You would have to define "generally accepted", but I have yet to encounter a software company that is fine with having GPL code in its code base |
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| 15:56.53 | Cedric2 | In my experience, software companies are deadly scared of the GPL |
| 15:57.11 | Cedric2 | because a developer accidentally importing a GPL source could potentially force their entire software to become open source |
| 15:57.12 | RyeBrye | Yeah, and even LGPL by association - but some big projets like Hibernate get widely used in spite of the LGPL |
| 15:57.15 | andyross | Well, duh, because unless the code base is itself GPL, that would be a license violation. But software companies (*especially* software companies) use GPL code all the time, and tend to like it. |
| 15:57.18 | Disconnect | Cedric2: agian, depends on what the codebase is doing. we've most likely got some gpl code, but we don't distribute the app so it doesn't apply. |
| 15:57.23 | jbq | Ditto. I've worked at a company that prefered to write equivalent libraries from scratch rather than touch GPL code. |
| 15:57.25 | Cedric2 | (I have doubts on how enforceable this is, but it's a separate discussion) |
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| 15:57.33 | ronnyek-_ | simma down now |
| 15:57.47 | Disconnect | jbq: ..maybe because libraries shouldn't be gpl? |
| 15:58.01 | jasta | Cedric2: my roommates all work for a company that hacks on samba and freebsd to sell distributed storage systems. theyre quite huge, in fact. |
| 15:58.05 | andyross | I'll shut up now. Clearly I've gone and stepped in a religious flame, not a license discussion. Apologies. Should have waited for context after connecting. |
| 15:58.21 | Disconnect | and i'd love to see sw companies avoiding gpl stuff like gcc and still do linux dev |
| 15:58.36 | Cedric2 | Disconnect: using gpl tool and importing gpl source code are different things |
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| 15:58.45 | Disconnect | ..s/gcc/libc/ |
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| 15:59.02 | ieatlint | Disconnect, using gcc or glibc doesn't constitute them being part of your code base |
| 15:59.20 | Cedric2 | Fortunately, compiling code with gcc doesn't automatically make that code gpl :) |
| 15:59.32 | andyross | Cedric2: yes, but fearing/hating the *use* of GPL code and the *import* of GPL code are equally different things. If you're going to be pednatic, the pedantry cuts both ways. :) |
| 15:59.46 | jasta | i actually think that it is very important for you to consider the nature of your project when choosing a license. any general bias toward one or the other is a losing strategy. |
| 15:59.51 | languish | ieatlint, invite your friends to #licensing it's a great place to discuss the GPL and other fun facts! |
| 16:00.13 | ieatlint | heh |
| 16:00.15 | jasta | i typically favor GPL when working on end-user applications, to prevent someone from slapping a corporate face on it and charging for it. |
| 16:00.19 | jasta | (for instance) |
| 16:00.19 | ieatlint | we're not interested in facts, thanks |
| 16:00.25 | jasta | but favor other licenses for other sorts of projects |
| 16:00.29 | languish | appearently not |
| 16:00.51 | Cedric2 | jaste: ruling out GPL is never a losing strategy :) |
| 16:00.54 | ronnyek-_ | hmm I dont see what the war is about seems like mkost peole are saying is they hate gpl |
| 16:01.01 | ronnyek-_ | cause gpl1/2 is shit |
| 16:01.03 | ieatlint | jasta, but a corporate face can do just that, generally |
| 16:01.23 | Cedric2 | Let's have a big anti-GPL group hug |
| 16:01.31 | ronnyek-_ | personally I dont care what my code is used for at all so long as they dont release an identical project making money off me |
| 16:01.31 | Disconnect | ronnyek-_: depends on what you are doing with it. |
| 16:01.51 | ronnyek-_ | if they want to make some derivitive works down the road that does 100x what my thing did and serves a diff purpose |
| 16:01.54 | Disconnect | jasta: remember that they can most likely take it, alter it, sell the binaries and provide sources upon request... but only to people who purchased the bins. |
| 16:02.02 | ronnyek-_ | say like I write a audio codec and somone wants to allow playback in their media pap |
| 16:02.05 | jasta | Cedric2: i don't think you even need to know the context of this discussion to see that you're wrong. |
| 16:02.07 | ronnyek-_ | more power to them |
| 16:02.10 | ieatlint | anyway, i'll remove myself from the licence topic per languish's pleas |
| 16:02.12 | jasta | you dont even need to know what the GPL is to know it. |
| 16:02.48 | Cedric2 | jasta: you're right in the sense that I bet most people who picked GPL for their software didn't realize the implications |
| 16:02.51 | jasta | don't categorically deny the validity of any idea ;) |
| 16:02.52 | ronnyek-_ | I've been in software for 10-15yr |
| 16:03.03 | Cedric2 | and they would probably have picked a different license had they known |
| 16:03.09 | ronnyek-_ | gpl has and will never be a license of second thought let alone choice |
| 16:03.22 | morrildl | Can we just accelerate ot Godwin's Law and wrap this up? |
| 16:03.36 | morrildl | jasta: I categorically deny this idea: "Hitler was awesome and misunderstood." |
| 16:03.42 | tomgibara | I have a newbie repo/git question. I'm resubmitting a patch, but sync reports there have been intervening commits. Do I need to worry about that? |
| 16:03.46 | morrildl | There, Godwin's Law invoked. |
| 16:03.47 | Disconnect | morrildl: with gpl nazi or bsd nazi? oooh or both. |
| 16:03.52 | andyross | Cedric2: certainly not true in my case. Do you have any actually, y'know, evidence that "most" (!) GPL authors regret their choice? This is just dumb. Stop being a nazi. |
| 16:03.55 | andyross | Ack. Simud. |
| 16:04.08 | Cedric2 | I guess Disconnect just godwined this for us |
| 16:04.14 | jasta | Cedric2: well, i am someone who thoughtfully understands a wide range of open source licenses, and i still choose GPL for many projects because it is appropriate. |
| 16:04.26 | Disconnect | free lunch is here, yay dotcom :) bbl |
| 16:04.43 | rubyonlinux | doesn't gpl just ensure that these shady cell companies don't take android and make it a closed piece of crap |
| 16:04.44 | neekers | morrildl: are you the developer in the google android app video? |
| 16:04.51 | ronnyek-_ | gpl is like throwing a hot ass lady in the streets in a glass box |
| 16:04.52 | rubyonlinux | i think for this use, gpl sounds like the only way to go |
| 16:04.54 | ronnyek-_ | blue balls you all day long |
| 16:05.06 | ronnyek-_ | gpl3 and shit is moving in the right direction mostly |
| 16:05.11 | Cedric2 | ronnyek-_: best analogy of the day so far |
| 16:05.14 | careo | rubyonlinux: not necessarily. |
| 16:05.39 | ronnyek-_ | gpl is the license of choice for elitests everywhere |
| 16:05.43 | gdsx | hey, all |
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| 16:05.48 | duncanfoo | yeah, 'cause I'd want to work my ass off on a project and let some commercial company take it and make money off my work. |
| 16:05.54 | duncanfoo | GPL is terrible (rolls eyes) |
| 16:05.58 | Cedric2 | Of course, the fact that rms is a douchebag doesn't help :) |
| 16:05.59 | morrildl | gdsx: run away! Save yourself! |
| 16:06.01 | gdsx | I'm sure you're enjoying this discussion, but at this point, you're preventing people with questions from getting help |
| 16:06.10 | gdsx | So please take the license discussion elsewhere |
| 16:06.20 | andyross | Oh for the love of Stallman please stop. Can we just all agree to think we're right and shut up about it all? |
| 16:06.33 | morrildl | neekers: which video? |
| 16:07.02 | neekers | the video decribing how to create a simple android app |
| 16:07.25 | ronnyek-_ | duncanfoo: theres tons of other licenses that prevent that sort of thing |
| 16:07.27 | ronnyek-_ | like lgpl |
| 16:07.29 | jasta | neekers: he's in it, but he's not the _developer_ |
| 16:07.30 | ronnyek-_ | or gpl3 |
| 16:07.32 | jasta | hides |
| 16:07.34 | ronnyek-_ | I am saying gpl as in gpl 1 |
| 16:07.51 | neekers | well, there is only one developer in it... :o) |
| 16:07.51 | Cedric2 | "Asustek to launch Android handset in 1H09" |
| 16:07.53 | morrildl | fadden0 and/or fadden: Have you seen this? http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/7370c2eb736fd013 |
| 16:07.54 | Cedric2 | http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20081029PD215.html |
| 16:08.14 | morrildl | neekers: yeah that one is me |
| 16:08.31 | neekers | oh cool , pleased to meet you |
| 16:08.36 | gdsx | ronnyek-_: stop, please |
| 16:08.36 | tethridge | Cedric2, another other manufacturers that you'd like to tell us about? :-) |
| 16:08.37 | morrildl | neekers: hi :) |
| 16:08.50 | Cedric2 | I'm just posting public links, nothing more :) |
| 16:09.02 | tethridge | I realize that, that's why I'm asking |
| 16:09.18 | tethridge | you can private message me. I don't mind. ;-) |
| 16:11.13 | *** part/#android Dougie187 (n=doug@wg-d232092.dsl.fsu.edu) |
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| 16:14.36 | Disconnect | ...wow, yeah, there were clearly tons of people waiting in the wings with questions.. :) |
| 16:14.38 | jasta | off to work later folks |
| 16:15.13 | morrildl | Disconnect: don't look a gift straw man in the mouth ;) |
| 16:15.24 | languish | Disconnect, they failed over to #android-dev |
| 16:15.42 | RyeBrye | Yeah, but #android-bs is still open for discussons on licensing |
| 16:16.03 | morrildl | RyeBrye: ...and if that's a joke, it shouldn't be. |
| 16:16.13 | morrildl | goes to create #android-bs |
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| 16:17.22 | michaelnovakjr | this licensing convo is going on for like an hour now |
| 16:17.44 | Disconnect | michaelnovakjr: it was done until you wnet and brought it up again. way to go. :( |
| 16:17.51 | michaelnovakjr | that is 00:59:59 too long |
| 16:18.50 | Disconnect | it was about 30 mins.. original question was d0nets asking about his app |
| 16:19.23 | michaelnovakjr | so 00:29:59 too long |
| 16:20.00 | Disconnect | he had a legit question (eventually, once it was dragged out of him) .. although he didn't like the answer so he asked a few more times.. |
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| 16:20.31 | languish | well, he is st0ned |
| 16:20.40 | languish | :| |
| 16:22.01 | duncanfoo | so wehn are activities destroyed? |
| 16:22.27 | jt436 | morrildl: any updates on when the market will keep previous information when you update an app? |
| 16:22.41 | michaelnovakjr | or when we can see apps online? |
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| 16:24.57 | Cedric2 | duncanfoo: whenever the system needs some resources |
| 16:25.10 | UKCoder | Hi all, does anyone know of any audio issues with the android emulator under vista? I'm trying to play out an MP3 with some pretty straightforward code (basically cut and paste from a tutorial), that shows no errors, however no audio comes out. The -useaudio flag doesn't seem to work any more and there are no other apps running, so I'm kinda out of ideas at this point |
| 16:25.45 | duncanfoo | cedric2: I'm havingt hte same discussion on #android-dev now :) |
| 16:26.04 | eldenz | UKCoder, do you hear other audio stuff? like when you hit the volume up/down buttons on the side of the device-graphics |
| 16:26.08 | jt436 | UKCoder: no I haven't come across anything like that, well except when I don't have headphones plugged into my laptop ;) |
| 16:26.59 | Cedric2 | On a related note, esr bought a G1 :-) http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=578 |
| 16:27.01 | Tauno | a total noob question.. what package should my app use if I don't have control of any domain? (hackbod: "you need to use a package name for some domain you have control over.") |
| 16:27.02 | UKCoder | :p if I tune into my radio station via my regular browser, or bring something up in audacity I can hear things just find |
| 16:27.12 | UKCoder | find=fine |
| 16:28.17 | Disconnect | Cedric2: speaking of batshit-crazy.... :) |
| 16:28.41 | Cedric2 | Tauno: you might want to buy a domain, it's only a few dollars per years these days and worth the investment, even if you never hook it up to a web site |
| 16:28.59 | neekers | tauno: just make one up then, com.tauno.myapp or something like that |
| 16:29.10 | Cedric2 | Disconnect: yeah, I feel a bit dirty knowing he bought one of our phones, but well |
| 16:29.47 | UKCoder | eldenz: Ya know, I hadn't even seen the (somewhat hidden) volume buttons on the side of the emulator.... let me see what happens |
| 16:30.03 | Disconnect | used to know him a very long time ago. |
| 16:30.04 | UKCoder | eldenz: yup, I hear the beep beep |
| 16:31.40 | Tauno | Cedric2, so I register awesomesoftware.com and then just use that like I really was a big software vendor with that name? Sounds fun :P |
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| 16:32.09 | morrildl | jt436: no specific date, but soon |
| 16:32.11 | eldenz | UKCoder, yeah they aren't too obvious to spot :) stumbled upon them by accident |
| 16:32.29 | morrildl | jt436: if you update now, your ratings and such will eventually come back, although not immediately |
| 16:32.31 | Cedric2 | Tauno: exactly :) |
| 16:32.42 | Cedric2 | And from that point on, you own "com.awesomesoftware", how cool is that? |
| 16:33.02 | Tauno | :P |
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| 16:33.19 | jt436 | morrildl: hmm ok |
| 16:34.05 | neekers | awesomesoftware.com is already taken... :o) |
| 16:34.07 | jt436 | is going to see all his info vanish ;p |
| 16:34.17 | michaelnovakjr | morrildl: what about seeing market apps online? |
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| 16:36.03 | morrildl | michaelnovakjr: ? I can see them fine right now |
| 16:36.12 | michaelnovakjr | without a phone? |
| 16:36.26 | michaelnovakjr | on your computer morrildl ? |
| 16:36.30 | Tauno | Can I download the market app from somewhere and install it on my emulator? I guess not but it's worth asking I guess :) |
| 16:36.40 | morrildl | michaelnovakjr: ahhh, you mean over the series of tubes |
| 16:36.58 | michaelnovakjr | indeed, i don't have a device yet morrildl :) |
| 16:37.30 | morrildl | A UI on the series of tubes is on the Market roadmap, but right now we're focusing on the on-device experience (which is fancy-speak for, "later" :)) |
| 16:37.41 | michaelnovakjr | :) |
| 16:37.47 | michaelnovakjr | morrildl: can it run in the emulator? |
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| 16:38.11 | UKCoder | eldenz: I've put the really simple code on pastebin http://pastebin.com/d18317ad2 |
| 16:38.49 | UKCoder | basically it's a button that starts up a MediaPlayer instance, loads an MP3 , prepares and starts it |
| 16:40.09 | morrildl | michaelnovakjr: good question. It might run, but it probably wouldn't be able to install anything. And I'm not even 100% sure it'd run, since the current build assumes it runs from the system image. |
| 16:40.24 | eldenz | UKCoder, i'm sorry i don't know anything about it... just asked because that info was missing :x |
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| 16:42.09 | UKCoder | ah no worries |
| 16:42.27 | UKCoder | anyone else in here familiar with MediaPlayer? |
| 16:42.56 | marcone | a little bit |
| 16:43.23 | marcone | what do you want to know |
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| 16:44.32 | UKCoder | marcone: I've posted a small code example http://pastebin.com/d18317ad2 where I've basically got a button that starts up a mediaplayer, I don't get any errors, but I also don't get any sound |
| 16:45.10 | marcone | device or emulator? |
| 16:45.13 | UKCoder | emulator |
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| 16:45.25 | marcone | do you have sound at all from the emulator? |
| 16:45.42 | UKCoder | yup, if I hit the vol up and down button I hear the beep beep |
| 16:45.55 | michaelnovakjr | what's your logcat say UKCoder |
| 16:46.09 | marcone | have you tried playing your mp3 in the music player? |
| 16:47.16 | michaelnovakjr | UKCoder: pastebin your logcat |
| 16:47.43 | UKCoder | michaelnovakjr: damn it... ya know, I'm still getting used to using the DDMS view in eclipse :) |
| 16:48.07 | UKCoder | looks like there's an illegalstateexception being thrown, I'd been checking the console before :) |
| 16:48.38 | michaelnovakjr | can you paste the whole output.. might make it easier to sniff out the problem |
| 16:48.45 | jasta | oh MediaPlayer :) |
| 16:48.55 | UKCoder | sure one sec, let me get a clean run again without me fiddling with anything :) |
| 16:49.26 | marcone | oh, I see the problem... |
| 16:49.38 | marcone | you shouldn't call prepare() on a MediaPlayer that you got from MediaPlayer.create() |
| 16:49.52 | marcone | (it's already prepared) |
| 16:50.22 | UKCoder | ahhhhhh |
| 16:50.43 | marcone | says so right in the javadoc :) |
| 16:51.24 | UKCoder | there we go! |
| 16:51.26 | UKCoder | :D |
| 16:51.41 | UKCoder | excellent, thanks for pointing that out marcone |
| 16:51.59 | jasta | marcone: my mediaplayer hacking was sidetracked by email app hacking... |
| 16:52.13 | jasta | so i'm probably going to just let 1.1 changes for ogg vorbis and such slip... |
| 16:52.16 | geist | Register Me |
| 16:52.20 | jasta | but iw ill be back to them soon |
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| 17:17.00 | jasta | does anyone know if there are good headphones available for the G1? |
| 17:17.32 | marcone | There are headphone *adapters* available, so you can plug in whatever good headphones you want. |
| 17:17.38 | romainguy_ | I use an adapter |
| 17:17.41 | jasta | i mean without requiring an adapter. just looking to pick up some decent comfortable ones without that stupid microphone piece |
| 17:17.48 | unix_lappy | hows A2DP coming along? |
| 17:18.01 | jasta | comfortable is the key |
| 17:18.29 | marcone | good, comfortable headphones with an HTC usb connector on them might be a bit hard to find. |
| 17:18.30 | unix_lappy | jasta: if you dont mind the adapter, you can use some supra-aural headphones for light use. |
| 17:18.32 | jham | jasta: http://www.amazon.com/T-Mobile-Touch-Stereo-Headphone-Adapter/dp/B000RU8YMY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=apparel&qid=1225300682&sr=8-1 |
| 17:18.35 | Disconnect | unix_lappy: SanMehat is working on it. then tmob will have to do an update. so .... not good unless you have an engineering device. |
| 17:18.47 | jham | jasta: Those adapters are tiny |
| 17:19.06 | Disconnect | ordered a 2-pack of right-angle ones for $9 yesterday. and a 3-in-one for using in the jeep |
| 17:19.07 | unix_lappy | Disconnect: yea, 2009 is the year of Android ;-) |
| 17:19.26 | jasta | hmm yeah, for $10 maybe thats just the way ill go |
| 17:19.33 | tomgibara | romainguy_: I have a question about my patch, can I msg you about it? |
| 17:19.37 | romainguy_ | sure |
| 17:19.45 | Disconnect | i should really start hitting on root access. but i'd need a friend with |
| 17:20.01 | Disconnect | an engineering bootloader to make it worthwhile.. cuz i mostly want to be able to reflash :) |
| 17:20.22 | Disconnect | (flashing running systems from userspace is an old and well-solved problem in embedded linux..) |
| 17:20.49 | Disconnect | esp since you can flash/test/flash/test.. the bootloader until you are happy. you just can't reset. |
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| 17:21.14 | unix_lappy | http://gizmodo.com/5070455/t+mobile-g1-unlock-now-available |
| 17:21.50 | Disconnect | ...so? thats sim unlock. tmob will do that for me now, all i need to do is call and say i'm possibly going overseas. |
| 17:22.29 | unix_lappy | to bad 3G wont work. |
| 17:24.43 | unix_lappy | havent heard of people successfully getting a sim unlock before the 90 day period. |
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| 17:25.16 | Disconnect | long-term good customers can generally just ask |
| 17:26.25 | androoid | zomg unlocked |
| 17:26.52 | jasta | im actually curious to try something once A2DP is supported |
| 17:27.10 | jasta | an A2DP car stereo would be really slick if the sound quality is good |
| 17:27.29 | jasta | would be awesome to just hit a button and set your phone down aywhere in the car and have it playing |
| 17:28.31 | DarkriftX | it was mentioned somewhere in a statement by google (i thought) that unlocking the g1 was supposed to be easier than with other phones (meaning from what I read google asked for the price/wait time to be really low) |
| 17:28.59 | f00f- | unlocking is really useless as i see it |
| 17:29.04 | f00f- | i want an unlocked bootloader |
| 17:29.37 | jasta | yeah i had thoguht unlocking opened it up for root access and such. not sure why i thought that, though |
| 17:29.50 | f00f- | it's the same old game they've always played |
| 17:30.08 | DarkriftX | yeah, always 2 types of unlocking, and sim unlockers play on that |
| 17:30.09 | f00f- | the platform might be as open as the blue sky |
| 17:30.10 | f00f- | but not the device |
| 17:30.11 | Disconnect | jailbreak vs unlock.. |
| 17:30.24 | DarkriftX | "we can unlock it for $xx" and everyone pays thinking its the other type of unlock |
| 17:30.48 | Disconnect | we could start a campaign of tech support calls for people trying to flash android to their g1.. |
| 17:30.57 | DarkriftX | lol |
| 17:31.00 | f00f- | people think somehow magically it'll work on other 3G frequencies |
| 17:31.06 | andyross | Uh... I rather think the marked for SIM unlock is a bit larger than "developer unlock". The SIM unlockers aren't being shady, we're the ones with the confusing terminology,. |
| 17:31.12 | Disconnect | cuz really, bitching online doesn't affect tmob in the slightest. but tons of people saying "wow i wish i could do this" (devs and non-devs alike) and calling them about it is different. |
| 17:31.43 | Disconnect | andyross: agreed, thats why the iphone hackers went with "unlock" and "jailbreak" instead |
| 17:31.52 | DarkriftX | you are right andyross but not many of them have statements on their sites saying "this is what you get, nothing else, if you need other features read here" or anything of the sort |
| 17:32.00 | Disconnect | someone needs to retheme it and release the flash image .. get people wanting it :) |
| 17:32.24 | DarkriftX | and as much as i hated the "jailbreak" term, i liked how they differentiated the 2 |
| 17:32.53 | Disconnect | DarkriftX: it comes from the old days.. chroot jails, vm jails, etc... |
| 17:33.38 | vol | so, I discovered that there is a "Brick" permission. |
| 17:33.44 | vol | this is, uh, interesting. |
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| 17:34.06 | jasta | vol: yeah i saw that too :) |
| 17:34.09 | DarkriftX | my app needs permission to brick your phone, do you grant it? |
| 17:34.16 | jasta | you know, regarding the permission system |
| 17:34.22 | jasta | after several days of using the G1 with the market and such |
| 17:34.30 | jasta | i find that the permission system is very hard to use properly |
| 17:34.38 | jasta | lots of apps request permissions that are frightening |
| 17:34.49 | mithro | Any one have an idea on how to get a MediaPlayer from the NotificationManager then? |
| 17:34.52 | vol | I haven't had that issue so far |
| 17:34.53 | jasta | and yet, you should "trust" them, even some of the featured apps are using things that make you go "what the hell?" |
| 17:34.59 | mithro | I can't find the code which plays the sound |
| 17:35.02 | vol | seems like most of them are reasonable |
| 17:35.06 | Dougie187 | http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/29/asus-said-to-be-launching-android-handset-in-first-half-of-09/ |
| 17:35.08 | Dougie187 | woot? |
| 17:35.17 | jasta | vol: almost every single one has "Access location" |
| 17:35.20 | anno^da_ | http://www.unlock-tmobileg1.com/ <- I like guys making money with the bullshit of locked phones :( |
| 17:35.21 | Disconnect | jasta: at the end of the day its no different from the s60 method, or windows - most users will jsut go "oh look stuff to click yes on again this is annoying but whatever" |
| 17:35.35 | jasta | Disconnect: i mean even as an informed user i can't use it to make useful decisions |
| 17:35.42 | Disconnect | yah |
| 17:35.46 | jasta | because app developers go nuts and try to support every stupid feature under the sun |
| 17:35.46 | DarkriftX | Application "Porn Downloader" Requires permission for GPS and Phone, please hit ok. |
| 17:35.50 | Disconnect | again tho, same as s60.. |
| 17:35.51 | jasta | like i installed this Wikipedia app |
| 17:35.53 | jasta | Quickpedia or something |
| 17:35.56 | vol | jasta: I dunno, pacman seemed to be ok w/o access location |
| 17:35.59 | jasta | and it requested to access my location |
| 17:36.08 | jasta | i sat looking at it for minutes thinking "what the hell?" |
| 17:36.11 | Dougie187 | jasta: thats retarded... |
| 17:36.13 | f00f- | well |
| 17:36.15 | Dougie187 | wtf does it need your location for? |
| 17:36.20 | f00f- | jasta there are geotagged wikipedia entries |
| 17:36.35 | f00f- | so probably by default it checks for nearby things |
| 17:36.35 | jasta | Dougie187: i eventually just trusted it and installed it, then it had a "Local" feature to show local news or some useless crud like that |
| 17:36.48 | Disconnect | yah and its "fine (gps)" not network.. |
| 17:36.51 | Dougie187 | it would be better if that was an optional feature. |
| 17:36.52 | jasta | but i guess what im saying is developers need to be more responsible about their feature sets |
| 17:36.54 | Disconnect | when really all it cares about is state |
| 17:37.00 | jasta | if you develop an app to do X, do only X. |
| 17:37.03 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 17:37.14 | Dougie187 | like if you want to write a media player, don't add a calculator into it |
| 17:37.19 | jasta | the permission system is impossible to use because developers are doing too much |
| 17:37.41 | DarkriftX | or the system could change to so that apps could request a feature but not get it |
| 17:37.53 | DarkriftX | deny gps use to a notepad app |
| 17:37.55 | Dougie187 | well hopefully there will be some useful apps out there that don't require all of the access. |
| 17:37.58 | jasta | yeah i would love that granularity |
| 17:38.23 | Dougie187 | jasta: are you using a lot of the apps in the app store? |
| 17:38.31 | Disconnect | that'd be great if there was a way to expand the app storage |
| 17:38.31 | jasta | like if i install a calculator and it says it needs internet access, i should be able to deny it, install anyway, experiment, and then if i later want to turn it back on do so |
| 17:38.40 | jasta | for instance if i go "oh, it has this neat feature to do XYZ online" |
| 17:38.47 | DarkriftX | exactly jasta |
| 17:38.56 | romainguy_ | then you'd all be pissed because you'd have to write your app knowing that features may not work :) |
| 17:38.57 | jasta | thats really an important feature now that i think about it ;) |
| 17:38.57 | Disconnect | as it is i'm actively jettisoning apps in favor of same-size competitors that have more features |
| 17:39.12 | Disconnect | jasta: that breaks the security model.. |
| 17:39.23 | Disconnect | (I disagree with the security model in many places, this being one of them, but..) |
| 17:39.31 | romainguy_ | interestingly Java WebStart has this fine-grained model |
| 17:39.31 | jasta | romainguy_: hardly, the "big" ones: location, internet, phone, etc are never guaranteed to work anyway |
| 17:39.38 | jasta | so if your app can't handle the case of them not working, it's totally broken |
| 17:39.38 | romainguy_ | either you grant all permissions at install time |
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| 17:39.43 | romainguy_ | or you grant permissions as you use the app |
| 17:39.59 | Disconnect | the only time it gets permissions are when its installed. so its all or nothing. and you can't suborn the app into requesting more perms.. |
| 17:40.10 | jasta | romainguy_: i'd like it to b at the time of installation to be able to prune the granted permissions |
| 17:40.12 | Disconnect | (not that it matters when every app out there can send sms's and make phoen calls and such..) |
| 17:40.19 | jasta | then later, add them again if i want |
| 17:40.22 | DarkriftX | that would be better id think |
| 17:40.31 | DarkriftX | or hell, have a permissions list of all apps |
| 17:40.36 | romainguy_ | yeah that's how some J2ME phones work |
| 17:40.43 | DarkriftX | and i can scroll down and tell the wikipedia app that no, i dont want you using gps anymore |
| 17:40.45 | romainguy_ | my Sony Ericsson let me do this |
| 17:40.50 | jasta | romainguy_: i legitimately have installed a couple of apps from the market that really had me wondering why it needed permission XYZ... |
| 17:40.59 | jasta | but i endedup installing it anyway because i "trust" them for some arbitrary reason |
| 17:41.05 | Disconnect | romainguy_: implementation wouldn't have to be a mess. each permission has a "disabled" return that can be used in the app interchangably with "not available" (eg no gps hit or no phone service, etc) |
| 17:41.06 | jasta | and i think thats totally against the spirit of thepermission system |
| 17:41.14 | romainguy_ | the same way we trust random apps we install on our desktop computers :) |
| 17:41.32 | pawalls | romainguy_, I'm not sure that's a good argument :-P |
| 17:41.34 | Disconnect | romainguy: my desktop computer allows me to run stuff as root.. |
| 17:41.38 | Dougie187 | romainguy_: true, but those don't generally disclose access as well as android would. |
| 17:41.48 | romainguy_ | Disconnect: I know you want root access |
| 17:41.57 | Dougie187 | Lol who doesn't |
| 17:41.59 | DarkriftX | but those dont say "hey, im going to need install permission, format permission and permission to disable your task manager" |
| 17:42.02 | jasta | romainguy_: right but why design this elaborate permission system and then fall short of making it useful? |
| 17:42.09 | DarkriftX | this is coming right out and telling us, which makes it more scary lol |
| 17:42.18 | romainguy_ | jasta: I believe it is useful |
| 17:42.23 | RyeBrye | According to this thread: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=438342 there is speculation that the screen of the G1 is capable of doing multitouch? |
| 17:42.24 | romainguy_ | it could be more user friendly, on that we agree |
| 17:42.27 | RyeBrye | is that true? |
| 17:42.34 | romainguy_ | (and we didn't wait for you guys to think about all this btw :) |
| 17:42.44 | Dougie187 | DarkriftX: exactly. your computer doesn't say, we are going to monitor your traffic 24 hours a day. or anything like that. |
| 17:42.48 | jasta | romainguy_: well, user friendly wasnt really my complaint. as i said, ive actually encountered cases where i was very confused by why apps were requesting certain things |
| 17:42.59 | DarkriftX | its useful because it tells you not to install stuff that needs to much, but what about all of the legit apps that are asking for it for unknown reasons |
| 17:42.59 | jasta | and there was no explanation from the app developer or any reason why i should let them have that access |
| 17:43.02 | Disconnect | RyeBrye: fwiw the more recent comments say its not hw capable but someday a device might be, and then they'll expand the api accordingly |
| 17:43.07 | romainguy_ | you confused means it's not user frriendly to me :) |
| 17:43.12 | jasta | and even, i'd really prefer to be bale to tell the wikipedia app i installed that it can never, ever get my location :) |
| 17:43.23 | f00f- | disabling root access reduces support costs. |
| 17:43.23 | jasta | i don't care what feature it has for that hehe |
| 17:43.29 | romainguy_ | I think part of the problem is also that some apps simply try to use every single feature they can ^^ |
| 17:43.32 | jbq | jasta: the unfortunate part is that with the current SDK you can't really "see" what permissions your application uses, and it's easy to have too many permissions by mistake. |
| 17:43.43 | Dougie187 | romainguy_: wasn't that the point of ADC1? |
| 17:43.43 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 17:43.56 | jasta | jbq: in the cases i saw, the permission usage was legitimate, it just wasn't really well explained |
| 17:43.58 | Dougie187 | thrown in as many features as you can, and you will win? |
| 17:44.09 | jasta | jbq: for instance, this wikipedia app did actually have a feature using my location |
| 17:44.15 | Disconnect | f00f-: thats my point.. if we start calling and writing and generally increasing support costs, chances are we'll eventually get teh ability to reflash. |
| 17:44.20 | DarkriftX | question from a non-dev: can you write an app and make it ask for gps permission without writing soem sort of gps use code into it? |
| 17:44.31 | jasta | a feature i dont care about, certainly, but still as you're installing it (before you see what it can do) you have to just guess randomly |
| 17:44.32 | jbq | jasta: the problem with a permission system is that by definition you can't trust the app to tell you what it needs the permission for. |
| 17:44.38 | DarkriftX | meaning, if it asks for gps is there a possibility its just asking but will never use it? |
| 17:44.52 | jasta | jbq: of course, which is why as i said earlier, the feature from android should be to let me conditionally grant permissions at install |
| 17:44.53 | vol | yes |
| 17:44.59 | RyeBrye | I had an app ask for permission to sleep with my wife. I thought that was odd. |
| 17:45.00 | jasta | so i could install the app anyway, but say: no, you can't have my location. |
| 17:45.07 | vol | RyeBrye: did you grant it? |
| 17:45.15 | jasta | then once im using the app if i see that the location feature could be interesting, i can turn it back on again at a later date |
| 17:45.18 | RyeBrye | Sure, it also asked for permission to use my camera ;) |
| 17:45.23 | vol | ;D |
| 17:45.25 | Disconnect | RyeBrye: yah i'm hoping that works out for me. some of the wives are meh but a couple..... |
| 17:45.28 | vol | iswydt |
| 17:46.02 | jasta | jbq: as i said, i've legitimately felt the permission system fail me when i have to stare at this list of requested permissions and just guess at random that this application will not harm my phone |
| 17:46.07 | jasta | or do something i odnt want |
| 17:46.15 | Dougie187 | How does the market get updated with the permissions that the app uses? Is that something the dev specifies? or does someone monitor that information? |
| 17:46.31 | gdsx | Dougie187: it's in the Manifest |
| 17:46.31 | jasta | jbq: but if i could deny things that dont make sense to me, then i would feel much safer |
| 17:46.34 | DarkriftX | its not the market, its the installer |
| 17:46.39 | Dougie187 | oh ok |
| 17:46.40 | jbq | jasta: the good news is that there are plenty of ways this can be extended in the future. |
| 17:46.47 | vol | jasta: sounds like you want UAC. |
| 17:46.51 | vol | hope you enjoy vista. |
| 17:46.53 | jasta | jbq: right, and that's what i'm talking about :) |
| 17:46.56 | gdsx | Dougie187: so an XML file that's included in the .apk communicates what permissions the app wants |
| 17:47.02 | stadlero | jasta: One way to look at it is, most of the permissions aren't really about harming your phone. They're more about violating your privacy, or doing things that cost $$ behind your back. |
| 17:47.06 | Dougie187 | gdsx: got it. |
| 17:47.19 | jbq | (but it has to be done in a way that doesn't break the assumptions 1.0 developers have made in their apps) |
| 17:47.23 | f00f- | just BRICK it and be done with it |
| 17:47.24 | jasta | stadlero: well yeah i didnt really mean harm my phone, i meant harm me :) |
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| 17:47.56 | jasta | jbq: which i think could be done pretty easily for most cases. for instance, deny internet permission and it just fails to connect like it always has. deny gps, it says "i cant get your location"... |
| 17:48.27 | jbq | jasta: the app still have to be ready to handle the exceptions that would be generated. |
| 17:48.37 | gdsx | jbq: I don't think you can do conditional permissions without breaking 1.0 apps. I think the best you can do is have a warning "this app was created with the 1.0 SDK, and may not support conditional permissions" |
| 17:49.00 | jbq | gdsx: except if you let apps specify which permissions they're conditionally dependent on. |
| 17:49.04 | Dougie187 | jbq: but wouldn't that be something the you would need anyways to be a good dev. For instance, if your app needed internet access but you didn't have access and tried to use the app. It should handle that anyways. |
| 17:49.13 | gdsx | jbq: yeah, that's my point |
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| 17:49.47 | Disconnect | gdsx: if you say no to a perm, a 1.0 app will just get null data ("no data access" "no cell signal" "no gps hit" etc...) |
| 17:49.49 | gdsx | jbq: basically, it shouldn't be too hard to implement, but apps out there already will break if they run without permissions they requested |
| 17:49.49 | jbq | Dougie187: it might not be implemented to handle it in a fine-grained way. |
| 17:50.00 | gdsx | Disconnect: no, it'll get an exception and die |
| 17:50.04 | gdsx | Disconnect: if it doesn't handle it |
| 17:50.08 | Disconnect | not if its implemented correctly |
| 17:50.09 | Dougie187 | jbq: i guess im just saying, all of the exceptions that should get thrown should be things that could happen naturally anyways. |
| 17:50.31 | gdsx | Disconnect: the problem is that this change would redefine what "correctly" means |
| 17:50.32 | Disconnect | 1.1 allows a nofication. 1.0 allows no-data |
| 17:50.40 | Dougie187 | jbq: so a good dev should handle all of those anyways, or else that would be a bug they need to fix. |
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| 17:50.57 | muthu_ | the v1.0 apps are not required to handle permission denied exceptions.. |
| 17:51.11 | muthu_ | since the apps have explicity requested them in the first place |
| 17:51.29 | Dougie187 | did you read anything above the last 4 lines? |
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| 17:52.17 | RyeBrye | The problem is that if you have a permissions denied telling the application that the person doesn't have a certain feature or their internet is down... then the application might lie to the user and piss the user off |
| 17:52.32 | jbq | Dougie187: check the list of exceptions that a so-called "good dev" wold have to handle everywhere in a fine-grained way (and that's only the system ones, there might be more...): http://code.google.com/android/reference/java/lang/RuntimeException.html |
| 17:52.41 | Disconnect | so its ok for a 1.0 app to crash when it tries to read gps data and gets no hit? |
| 17:52.59 | jbq | It's not gonna get a RuntimeException in that case. |
| 17:53.01 | Dougie187 | jbq: i don't think thats too many... |
| 17:53.11 | RyeBrye | i.e. "I'm sorry you can't do this because your internet connection appears to be down." - User might not know that they clicked "deny" - and they get pissed "Hell no! My internet is up!!!!" - but if they gave them an accurate message "I'm sorry, you haven't authorized me to do this... Please give me permision to complete this task" |
| 17:53.15 | DarkriftX | they could just have 2 versions of apps, 1.0 and x.0, 1.0 apps would work as they do but give a warning, x.0 apps would be conditional and we as the public would frown apon new apps using 1.0 permissions and not use them |
| 17:53.50 | Dougie187 | jbq: would you design an app that didn't handle all of the exceptions that you could get? |
| 17:54.14 | gdsx | Dougie187: at some point, you have to decide between adding tons of error-handling and adding features |
| 17:54.25 | muthu_ | Dougie187: why would you handle permission denied, when you know that you got the permission? |
| 17:54.31 | jbq | I most definitely do not try to catch all RuntimeExceptions in a fine-grained way. |
| 17:54.31 | muthu_ | that's plain stupid |
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| 17:55.30 | Dougie187 | muthu_: read the rest of the conversation before you comment. |
| 17:55.30 | Disconnect | jbq: so don't give it a runtime exception in this case. 1.1 apps can say "i want to know about temporarily-denied perms so i can beg for permission" .. 1.0 apps say "hey, look, i can't get a gps fix." |
| 17:55.30 | Dougie187 | gdsx: sure, but features are what is going to start the app, and error-handling should be on-going. |
| 17:55.30 | Dougie187 | gdsx: noone is going to use an app that is all features. |
| 17:55.30 | jbq | Disconnect: that'd break source compatibility. |
| 17:55.31 | Dougie187 | gdsx: then it would never work. |
| 17:55.35 | Disconnect | jbq: so far every single release of the sdk has broken apps.. how is this different? |
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| 17:56.08 | Disconnect | (and again, you don't have to deal with the perm issue in 1.1, you just have the OPTION of saying "hey, dude, i can't give you the weather icon in this calculator if you won't tell me where you are") |
| 17:56.09 | jbq | Disconnect: so far there's only been a single release of a post-1.0 SDK. |
| 17:56.25 | gdsx | Dougie187: that's not what I'm saying |
| 17:56.59 | Dougie187 | gdsx: i understand, im just saying that as a comment. A good dev would have the features they needed for their app to function, and then the error-handling they needed to keep the app working for the user. |
| 17:57.46 | gdsx | Dougie187: my point is simply that, if there are many error conditions, and you have to handle them in a fine-grained manner, it can become too large of a burden to deal with efficiently |
| 17:58.30 | Disconnect | its pretty easy to look at the permissions list and figure out which ones are generally/always required and which ones are potentially optional. send/receive sms.. optional. gps .. optional. make/receive calls.. optional. change system settings.. required. |
| 17:58.32 | Dougie187 | gdsx: sure. But im just saying that personally i can't imagine an exception that would be thrown from the lack of a certain permission that you wouldn't have to deal with already. |
| 17:59.42 | Disconnect | Dougie187: he's insisting that it has to be a new exception. without that assumption his argument has no basis.. |
| 17:59.54 | Dougie187 | gdsx: they should all be things that you would want to handle already for instance, if the signal was terrible in the area you are in and you are trying to get a GPS fix as Disconnect was mentioning. You should already be handling the case where you can't get a GPS fix gracefully, so then just tell the app there is no gps. |
| 18:00.18 | gdsx | Dougie187: there is a SecurityException which (I believe) is thrown when you try to do something you're not allowed to |
| 18:01.03 | gdsx | Dougie187: you wouldn't normally handle that when you're trying to grab GPS data, for instance, because in the current model, you have that permission just by virtue of the app running at all |
| 18:01.10 | jbq | If you don't differentiate the exceptions, you don't have any way for the app to display a meaningful message. |
| 18:01.55 | gdsx | nods at jbq |
| 18:02.02 | Dougie187 | gdsx: well if you knew that the users could pick and choose which premissions to give the app then you better handle it when ever you are doing something. and thats not even a huge issue, because there are other exceptions that you would need to handle in that same place. |
| 18:02.42 | Dougie187 | jbq: its all where the exception occurs for the meaningful message. for instance your not just going to write a generic error routine, you would catch the exception when you are trying to do something you can't and then give a meaningful message. |
| 18:03.18 | Dougie187 | and there are always going to be errors that you have to catch there anyways, so it shouldn't be a big issue for other devs to implement these. |
| 18:03.37 | gdsx | Dougie187: it's not an issue at all for devs to implement them _in the future_ |
| 18:03.44 | jbq | Well, I beg to disagree, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree. |
| 18:03.56 | gdsx | Dougie187: I'm saying it's likely that programs _out now_ haven't impelented them |
| 18:04.24 | Dougie187 | gdsx: sure. but we are talking about this being a feature in the future. because its not like you can selectively deny permissions right now either. |
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| 18:06.07 | gdsx | Dougie187: yeah. The issue is that, as a platform, we can't break 1.0 apps. I already proposed one option to support them even after changing the permissions scheme, though, and I'm sure there are others. So I think we're pretty much in agreement |
| 18:06.08 | Dougie187 | gdsx: im just saying noone should be against this issue, because these should be things that would be fairly easy to implement anyways, and it is more user friendly as was discussed earlier. |
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| 18:06.14 | Disconnect | i'm just saying that its not difficult for a current program to be -given- selective permissions on may requests, by simply returning null data. and that future programs would be allowed to either do that or to say "notify me" |
| 18:07.17 | Disconnect | (it would probably be better as a different exception anyway, permissions rather than security.. its not breaking out an rampaging around, its simply the user saying "umm.... no. you can't do that.") |
| 18:07.48 | Dougie187 | gdsx: but eventually for a platform to grow they have to break apps. i mean it might not be a good idea to break the apps a week after the platform is released, but eventually it is probably better to have the new feature then keep older apps around. |
| 18:08.14 | andyross | Isn't that the Vista model though? "This application is trying to register an Intent, allow or deny?" Hardly a great user experience. |
| 18:08.33 | stadlero | I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a moment and rebut an earlier statement: "noone should be against this issue, because these should be things that would be fairly easy to implement anyways, and it is more user friendly as was discussed earlier." |
| 18:08.41 | Dougie187 | andyross: i think we are just saying would you rather have that, or have "you are installing this app, and it needs all of this stuff" |
| 18:09.06 | stadlero | I think the implementation is reasonably straightforward. But you have to honestly weigh the complexities it introduces to the user experience. |
| 18:09.13 | Disconnect | andyross: manage it the same way it is now, with an 'edit' button during installation. and a security manager (either part of the app manager and/or as a separate "this is what you said yes/no, systemwide") |
| 18:09.26 | andyross | The latter can be ignored by non-technical users instead of scaring them with stuff they aren't prepared for, so yeah, I guess I'd rather have that. The idea of user-based authorization of low-level technical details is kinda flawed. |
| 18:10.37 | Dougie187 | andyross: well as was discussed earlier, you wouldn't be choosing if the app had permissions when it needed them, you would decide when you installed. then if you realized that it canceled a feature you would really like, then you reinstall the app with that permission allowed. |
| 18:11.04 | Disconnect | andyross: security and users will never mix in a good way. the best you can hope for is a default that won't kill -all- the users and will allow the better ones to do what they need/want. |
| 18:11.07 | RyeBrye | Anyone taken their G1 apart yet? I'm surprised I haven't seen any tear-down images yet |
| 18:11.21 | Dougie187 | RyeBrye: most people love theirs too much. |
| 18:11.32 | stadlero | Many, many features are easy to implement. But for a consumer product, the bars for (a) useful and (b) understandable need to be set far differently than consensus of a room full of people like us. |
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| 18:11.54 | RyeBrye | The same could be said about the iPhone - but those have been gutted open with their internals posted all over |
| 18:12.14 | RyeBrye | my G1 will probably be here within the hour |
| 18:12.17 | Dougie187 | RyeBrye: probably by some apple haters. |
| 18:12.22 | gdsx | RyeBrye: people get free iPhones all the time |
| 18:12.24 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 18:12.32 | androoid | i wished there wus more good aps |
| 18:12.34 | wastrel | hi |
| 18:12.36 | androoid | apps* |
| 18:12.46 | Dougie187 | im just kidding by the way. i don't know why noone has torn their phone apart. |
| 18:12.47 | RyeBrye | Is there a factory service manual floating around? I wont mind ripping mine open - but I would prefer to know how to do so the proper way first :) |
| 18:12.51 | wastrel | the iphone didn't get apps for what, a year? |
| 18:13.06 | RyeBrye | official apps, or jailbroken apps? |
| 18:13.07 | Disconnect | RyeBrye: not yet but afair tmob usually leaks them pretty quick |
| 18:13.28 | androoid | given there was over 1000 submitted for the google's challenge, i was hoping there would be more apps that was final on launch day |
| 18:13.52 | Disconnect | wastrel: but everyone forgot that now, and its all about how they've had apps just FOREVER, and look at how many 10s of thousands of useless apps they can install... |
| 18:14.00 | Dougie187 | androoid: i think most of those stopped development after they lost. |
| 18:14.11 | fadden | Or they're waiting until they can sell the apps. |
| 18:14.13 | androoid | i submitted a app that i worked on for 5 days and seemed like it was better than some of the apps that is available on the market :( |
| 18:14.51 | Dougie187 | androoid: did you see the apps that won the challenge? most of them were useless. |
| 18:15.05 | androoid | Dougie187: no i did not |
| 18:15.06 | romainguy_ | useless *to you* :) |
| 18:15.26 | androoid | shazaam is probably the coolest app ever made! |
| 18:15.28 | fadden | Why didn't the tip calculators win? |
| 18:15.40 | Disconnect | romainguy: locale is great. if you only ever want to turn your volume up and down. |
| 18:15.52 | Dougie187 | romainguy_: sure, but even if you are talking about the general public, they had quite a few repeat apps win. which are useless. noone needs 4 different media players. |
| 18:16.01 | androoid | ohh is that what locale does |
| 18:16.14 | romainguy_ | Dougie187: yeah but you can choose the one you prefer |
| 18:16.18 | romainguy_ | take the wikipedia apps |
| 18:16.21 | romainguy_ | there are 3 or 4 of them |
| 18:16.25 | RyeBrye | Locale could do so much more... like SMS everyone in the neighborhood when a sex offender drives by ;) |
| 18:16.37 | romainguy_ | the one I prefer to use it apparently not the one (according to the comments) other people prefer |
| 18:16.41 | RyeBrye | (if the sex offender had a G1 and enabled it, of course) |
| 18:16.43 | romainguy_ | I'm certainly happy I was given the choice |
| 18:16.46 | androoid | romainguy_: i agree, quickipedia is so much better than the other ones |
| 18:16.48 | Dougie187 | romainguy_: sure, but the challenge would have been better to give 50 good unique apps. rather then 25 unique apps and 25 repeats. |
| 18:16.49 | vol | That's an awesome idea, especially for the guy on the sex offender list for public urination. |
| 18:16.56 | RyeBrye | I wonder if I should make a sex offender pinpoint app with google maps overlays :) |
| 18:16.59 | romainguy_ | androoid: that's not the one I use :) |
| 18:17.07 | vol | it's already done, and those maps are generally useless |
| 18:17.18 | Disconnect | RyeBrye: locale would be awesome if - for example - you could change mail account notifications. or notify volume. etc. its really only got 2-3 things it can control, its kinda sad.. |
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| 18:17.31 | romainguy_ | Dougie187: you know very well that repeats are bound to happen |
| 18:17.33 | Disconnect | is prolly talking to the locale author without knowing it, but whatever.. :) |
| 18:17.35 | RyeBrye | Are the ADC apps OSS? |
| 18:17.35 | gdsx | Disconnect: locale is still under development |
| 18:17.43 | gdsx | Disconnect: androidlocale.com |
| 18:17.45 | androoid | RyeBrye: doesn't isafe have sex offenders on there? haha |
| 18:17.51 | gdsx | Disconnect: I mean, I know 4 of the 5 folks on the team |
| 18:17.56 | vol | RyeBrye: no, pretty sure they're not |
| 18:18.01 | Dougie187 | romainguy_: sure, but i just wouldn't expect a challenge to award a bunch of repeats. |
| 18:18.07 | romainguy_ | why? |
| 18:18.09 | vol | ADC was just a way to get devs intersted |
| 18:18.10 | romainguy_ | if the apps are good... |
| 18:18.12 | Disconnect | gdsx: so is everything.. but its been (in programmer time) a -long- time since adc ended. |
| 18:18.16 | RyeBrye | There should be an application that shows you your likeliness of being mugged based on your location and a camera image of what you are wearing |
| 18:18.18 | Dougie187 | and RyeBrye: the Sex predators tool kit is PhoneBook 2.0. |
| 18:18.25 | Dougie187 | romainguy_: but they aren't.... |
| 18:18.27 | vol | There's that too, RyeBrye |
| 18:18.28 | romainguy_ | iSafe keeps telling me I'm gonna die |
| 18:18.32 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 18:18.33 | vol | shows how dangerous your area is |
| 18:18.38 | androoid | LOL |
| 18:18.39 | romainguy_ | Dougie187: according to you... apparently the judges felt they were good |
| 18:18.40 | RyeBrye | :) |
| 18:18.43 | Dougie187 | here are the apps for anyone interested. |
| 18:18.43 | Dougie187 | http://code.google.com/android/adc_gallery/ |
| 18:18.48 | jbq | romainguy_: what, you're immortal? |
| 18:18.51 | androoid | i am still too scared to turn on JOYity |
| 18:18.58 | romainguy_ | jbq: I live the last street before the Tenderloin |
| 18:19.00 | androoid | i'm scared of some rapist coming up to me randomly |
| 18:19.11 | romainguy_ | jbq: so the app is freaking out :) |
| 18:19.12 | vol | haha |
| 18:19.14 | RyeBrye | romainguy_ - is it shareware and you haven't registered it yet? ;) |
| 18:19.25 | vol | joyity seems to require that you already have friends or something |
| 18:19.27 | RyeBrye | "You will die. Please register and I can ensure your safety" |
| 18:20.05 | gdsx | Disconnect: so it has. Don't forget that these folks have actual lives. Also, people don't necessarily do a release every week |
| 18:20.39 | Disconnect | ..$275k can't buy any new features in 2 months? I think google got jacked. |
| 18:20.50 | Dougie187 | Disconnect: true. lol |
| 18:20.55 | androoid | thx for htat link Dougie187, i am going to check all of those out |
| 18:21.25 | Dougie187 | androoid: np. read some of the descriptions first though.. some are rather humorous. |
| 18:22.10 | Dougie187 | androoid: my personal favorite is for phonebook 2.0 in the 100k group |
| 18:22.22 | DarkriftX | there is a guy in here who wrote a really good app that might have won in the adc if he had submitted it in time (or written it in time) |
| 18:22.38 | DarkriftX | and he makes it sound like he might not release it (hope he does) |
| 18:22.49 | Dougie187 | DarkriftX: what app was it? |
| 18:22.53 | DarkriftX | pinpoint |
| 18:23.07 | Dougie187 | url? |
| 18:23.10 | DarkriftX | you text your app a pin# and it texts you its gps location back (for finding lost or stolen phones) |
| 18:23.14 | DarkriftX | no idea |
| 18:23.38 | DarkriftX | he was writing it and showed screenshots of it |
| 18:23.38 | Dougie187 | thats cool. |
| 18:23.46 | DarkriftX | sounds like one of the must haves for a lot of ppl |
| 18:23.50 | DubLo7 | I've done that for windows mobile |
| 18:24.04 | androoid | more games!!!!! |
| 18:24.17 | androoid | i was expecting a emulator for SNES to be out by now |
| 18:24.27 | DarkriftX | that will take a while androoid |
| 18:24.36 | DarkriftX | those are always finicky on new hardware |
| 18:24.42 | DarkriftX | let alone new OS |
| 18:26.39 | RyeBrye | I've been peeking at how hard it would be to port one of the java emulators over, but haven't done much because my day job keeps me pretty busy |
| 18:26.40 | *** join/#android Terdhex1 (n=ENRIQUE@host-208-68-238-61.biznesshosting.net) |
| 18:27.13 | *** join/#android oinkboink (n=dingdong@p5B125948.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:28.10 | jt436 | androoid: games are on the way, you don't expect the big companies to release great games for free do you? |
| 18:28.16 | oinkboink | is there a tag/attributes overview for main.xml? |
| 18:28.43 | oinkboink | on the inet |
| 18:30.37 | androoid | There are attributes in eclipse |
| 18:31.16 | romainguy_ | if you want to have fun you can also look for the file common/res/values/attrs.xml in the source code |
| 18:31.21 | romainguy_ | that's where we define all the attributes :) |
| 18:33.01 | *** join/#android ralfz (n=ralf@nat/google/x-e6af043accfa8576) |
| 18:35.17 | *** join/#android mickrobk (n=mickrobk@c-67-173-250-134.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 18:36.04 | oinkboink | well, i search the tag for button-pressed-color and button-not-pressed-color ^^ |
| 18:36.44 | DJTachyon | Android Gear Anybody? Any Requests? :) http://www.cafepress.com/djtachyon .. http://www.zazzle.com/djtachyon |
| 18:37.02 | romainguy_ | you got the authoriztaion then? :) |
| 18:37.23 | oinkboink | me? |
| 18:37.55 | DJTachyon | what authorization? ... its got a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License :P |
| 18:38.18 | DJTachyon | and I state that in the stores :P |
| 18:38.35 | romainguy_ | I thought there were restriction on the use of the Android logo |
| 18:38.42 | romainguy_ | (not the green droid, the android text logo) |
| 18:39.06 | DJTachyon | well they were all on the same page with the license |
| 18:39.16 | yakischloba | i am obviously buying the panties. |
| 18:39.26 | DJTachyon | hehehe |
| 18:39.28 | yakischloba | (for jasta) |
| 18:39.40 | jt436 | http://www.android.com/branding.html |
| 18:39.55 | DJTachyon | i actually took the wallpapers and rerendered them .. i dont have that font |
| 18:40.03 | romainguy_ | here you go |
| 18:40.04 | romainguy_ | "The Android logo may not be used." |
| 18:40.06 | DJTachyon | http://code.google.com/android/goodies/index.html |
| 18:40.15 | oinkboink | so where i can see the possibe attributs e.g. for the Button-tag in main.xml? |
| 18:40.21 | romainguy_ | so basically you can use the green droid but not the text logo |
| 18:40.32 | romainguy_ | oinkboink: there's a doc somewhere with all the attributes |
| 18:40.39 | DJTachyon | hmm conflict there then .. |
| 18:40.50 | DJTachyon | because the wallpapers say they are free to remix |
| 18:41.07 | jt436 | Android logo and the custom font may not be used |
| 18:41.38 | greencookie | Where would be a good place to read on how to get started on making apps for android? |
| 18:41.56 | tmarble | for those of you lucky enough to have an actual G1... what's the deal with the USB port? Is it a "host", a "client", or OTG? |
| 18:41.57 | jt436 | greencookie: http://code.google.com/android/ |
| 18:42.13 | greencookie | thnx jt436 |
| 18:42.20 | vol | it's a client I think |
| 18:42.24 | vol | I haven't tried using it to host anything |
| 18:42.28 | romainguy_ | tmarble: no host |
| 18:42.42 | vol | it'd be awesome if it could though : ) |
| 18:43.05 | tmarble | ah, ok, thx... i couldn't find a definitive answer from http://www.htc.com/www/product/g1/specification.html |
| 18:43.05 | romainguy_ | I still want to use my ps3 controller to play quake |
| 18:43.28 | jt436 | quake *bah* ;P |
| 18:43.29 | Disconnect | DJTachyon: that page says "except as noted" and the page (http://code.google.com/policies.html#restrictions) talks about trademarks and such. so the android images are under the branding license... |
| 18:47.47 | *** join/#android mazzen (n=mortel@u30-237.dsl.vianetworks.de) |
| 18:54.15 | eldenz | quake with a controller *bah* ;P |
| 18:56.28 | *** join/#android Krang (i=Krang@142.166.111.199) |
| 18:57.00 | Krang | Hey all, I'm trying to get a feel for ease of development on Android vs Windows mobile. Any good resources you can point me to? |
| 18:57.44 | vol | code.google.com/android/ |
| 18:57.53 | vol | android is by far the most delightful dev experience I've had |
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| 18:58.08 | vol | there's a plugin for eclipse made by google explicitly for development |
| 18:58.12 | vol | shit just works |
| 18:58.17 | vol | there's no fucking around with dev keys or signing |
| 18:58.21 | vol | (as long as you use eclipse) |
| 18:58.26 | jt436 | vol: lets see what happens once multiple devices hit the market |
| 18:58.31 | Krang | vol: so you've developed of WinMob before? |
| 18:58.33 | jt436 | and your app starts to break |
| 18:58.58 | vol | Krang: I work at a company that does mobile dev. I haven't done other platforms yet (except j2me ugh), but I've heard cries of torment and horror from other devs |
| 18:59.06 | vol | usually "well at least it's not symbian..." |
| 18:59.13 | Krang | ouch :-) |
| 18:59.38 | vol | anyway |
| 18:59.47 | vol | I found it extremely easy compared to developing for the blackberry |
| 18:59.51 | vol | debugging flat out works |
| 18:59.57 | vol | there are no mysterious segfaults |
| 19:00.11 | vol | I have yet to have my phone freeze up, let alone the emulator |
| 19:00.14 | jt436 | ok, well blackberry isn't much fun |
| 19:00.28 | vol | no, it's really not : ( |
| 19:00.32 | jt436 | had to give a talk last week at the BlackBerry dev conf saying how great it is |
| 19:00.37 | vol | haha |
| 19:01.03 | vol | so, from personal experience, I can tell you that it's easier than developing for a blackberry |
| 19:01.22 | Krang | So the platform (so far) seems to be more stable than the average? I have very little experience of any and am trying to get a good feel. I've never seen a WinMob device crash, but neither have I seen one with anything more than a default configuration |
| 19:01.34 | Krang | vol: Cheers |
| 19:01.36 | vol | yeah, the platform seems to be very stable |
| 19:02.08 | Krang | And as a developer, it's easy to use. Has anyone here done WinMob development before? |
| 19:02.11 | vol | the application lifecycle will be different than what you're used to |
| 19:02.16 | vol | but you'll figure it out :) |
| 19:02.27 | RyeBrye | Who the hell is 2fcdit123@gmail.com and why is my new G1 trying to get into his gmail account? |
| 19:02.34 | vol | haha |
| 19:02.37 | vol | "your" new g1 |
| 19:02.37 | jt436 | ha, someone returned it |
| 19:02.46 | vol | steal his stuff! |
| 19:02.51 | RyeBrye | I don't know his password :( |
| 19:02.57 | vol | learn it! |
| 19:03.03 | RyeBrye | It looks new, and I got it straight from t-mobile |
| 19:03.07 | RyeBrye | looks like he just typed gibberish |
| 19:03.12 | RyeBrye | I'll see if I can recover it though :) |
| 19:03.13 | jt436 | well someone has used it |
| 19:03.23 | RyeBrye | Yeah, lame |
| 19:03.37 | RyeBrye | Does everyone else's G1 have that "new shoe smell"? |
| 19:03.47 | RyeBrye | The foam from the box makes it smell like a pair of nikes |
| 19:03.56 | *** join/#android pjv (n=pjv@91.178.168.114) |
| 19:04.01 | vol | RyeBrye: .... no |
| 19:04.22 | RyeBrye | begins to wonder what T-mobile sent him :) |
| 19:04.40 | Krang | vol: I'm actually trying to decide what would be best to deploy company-wide if we want to develop our own apps internally |
| 19:04.54 | Disconnect | fwiw on platform stability.. it doesn't "crash" as such. and apps seem reasonably good as well. but it gets 'unstable' on a regular basis (30-60 second hangs getting to the home page, etc) |
| 19:05.02 | vol | Krang: you're figuring out if you want to buy everyone G1s? |
| 19:05.06 | Disconnect | SanMehat is working on that tho |
| 19:05.36 | vol | Disconnect: I haven't had that happen to me |
| 19:05.46 | Krang | vol: No, more deciding what OS to recommend for including on a phone being developed for a new 4G network |
| 19:05.53 | RyeBrye | I'll email him and ask him if he had a G1 |
| 19:05.54 | RyeBrye | :) |
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| 19:06.28 | vol | o_O |
| 19:06.35 | jt436 | Disconnect: it could be one of the apps you have installed running in the background |
| 19:06.42 | waldo_ | hey is there any reason why I couldn't send someone an .apk file out of /apps? licensing-wise? |
| 19:06.45 | vol | Good lord, what are you asking us for then? |
| 19:06.47 | jt436 | doesn't imagine a lot of apps in the market behave correctly |
| 19:07.03 | vol | you have engineers, don't you? |
| 19:07.06 | zhobbs | waldo_: some apks are locked to the device I think |
| 19:07.11 | zhobbs | forward locked |
| 19:07.31 | waldo_ | but there's no licensing problem |
| 19:07.50 | Disconnect | waldo_: most licenses don't allow redistribution. just like "what can i release my code under" its a question thats specific to the app. |
| 19:08.16 | waldo_ | hmm.. I'm trying to figure out what this app is: Vending.apk |
| 19:08.29 | waldo_ | is that the market? |
| 19:08.51 | waldo_ | oh yes it is! |
| 19:08.55 | zhobbs | waldo_: it is |
| 19:09.08 | zhobbs | waldo_: I tried to pull it and run on the emulator but it won't work |
| 19:09.46 | muthu_ | send me the vending.apk.. need that ;) |
| 19:09.52 | Krang | vol: nope, I was asked for my opinion and want to get a good picture. We outsource our stuff :-) |
| 19:09.56 | zhobbs | muthu_: doesn't work on emu |
| 19:10.01 | waldo_ | ahhh okay |
| 19:10.05 | muthu_ | oh |
| 19:10.08 | RyeBrye | is there a dalvik decompiler yet? |
| 19:10.13 | RyeBrye | ... no reason :/ |
| 19:10.17 | zhobbs | hehe |
| 19:10.26 | Krang | vol: Besides, hiring one engineer and asking him isn't nearly as good as asking a bunch of people |
| 19:10.47 | jt436 | Krang: depends who you trust more |
| 19:10.48 | RyeBrye | Except for the fact that a bunch of people don't usually care too much |
| 19:10.56 | waldo_ | is the market not open-sourced itself? |
| 19:11.07 | vol | Krang: we're slightly biased ;) |
| 19:11.11 | jt436 | and it depends "which" bunch of people, look what channel you are in |
| 19:11.13 | Krang | Ryebrye: They express their opinions pretty freely |
| 19:11.31 | Krang | jt436: It's not the only channel I'm in, you know :-) |
| 19:11.32 | RyeBrye | what was your original question? |
| 19:12.02 | jt436 | Krang: but answers may be biased |
| 19:12.10 | RyeBrye | and people may lie |
| 19:12.12 | Krang | How does Android shape up vs windows mobile for application development, and how stable is it as a platform? |
| 19:12.17 | RyeBrye | Windows mobile sucks |
| 19:12.18 | *** join/#android cybereagle (n=cybereag@unaffiliated/cybereagle) |
| 19:12.19 | RyeBrye | there is your answer |
| 19:12.25 | RyeBrye | :) |
| 19:12.30 | michaelnovakjr | yea WinMo is hell |
| 19:12.30 | Krang | jt436: yeah, bias is kinda expected :-) |
| 19:12.31 | gdsx | RyeBrye: regarding your "new shoe smell," question, that's actually what happens when plastics de-gas |
| 19:12.43 | RyeBrye | gdsx - so my phone is passing gas? |
| 19:12.44 | RyeBrye | ;) |
| 19:12.46 | vol | Krang: One thing to keep in mind right now is that Android doesn't have a JIT compiler for apps, so it's "lawl java is slow" slow |
| 19:13.05 | gdsx | RyeBrye: I think that's for you to decide. Your phone is made of plastic, though |
| 19:13.06 | RyeBrye | Will android ever have a JIT? |
| 19:13.10 | vol | as opposed to more recent J2/5SE java apps where Java is nearly/actually on par with native code |
| 19:13.16 | gdsx | RyeBrye: ask andyross |
| 19:13.21 | gdsx | hides |
| 19:13.33 | RyeBrye | andyross - will Android ever have a JIT? |
| 19:13.42 | vol | Though, that said, you can still use JNI to load C libs |
| 19:13.50 | vol | which is the approach my company is taking |
| 19:13.53 | RyeBrye | Yeah, but how do you get those C-bits on there? |
| 19:13.58 | RyeBrye | oh, you just bundle them in the apk? |
| 19:14.10 | vol | yeah, you can stuff them in the apk for one thing |
| 19:14.17 | vol | or just leave them flopping out on an sd card |
| 19:14.29 | andyross | Ask me? I was flaming about that last week, but I'm happy with JNI right now. FWIW: I firmly believe that a low-hanging-fruit JIT would be an important feature. Just mapping the 1:1 instructions and leaving the rest (field access, java function call, etc...) as-is would still be a big improvement. |
| 19:14.48 | zhobbs | vol: that's interesting, so you package them in apk and save them to the /data/data/ area? |
| 19:14.54 | Goosey | Is there documentation about stuffing c-libs into the apk? I had no idea you could do this |
| 19:15.27 | RyeBrye | I've not done a lot of JNI - but what kind of security model is there? i.e. could you conceivably go trouncing around the phones memory in C-code and spit the results out to JNI? |
| 19:15.28 | Lenolium | vol: Are there any calls you can make to determine what architecture you are running on, so you can load the correct libs? |
| 19:15.44 | gdsx | Goosey: basically, it will likely work, but it is currently not supported. Changes we make in the future could definitely break apps that are built/packaged like that right now |
| 19:15.58 | andyross | yeah, basically. Write out a file and then call System.load(). The tricky bit is getting the prebuilt toolchain operating. I put this up yesterday: http://plausible.org/andy/NativeAPK-debug.apk -- it does some syscall and libc stuff and logcats it. |
| 19:15.58 | jbq | RyeBrye: Android doesn't rely on the VM for security. |
| 19:16.09 | fadden | andyross: less so on ARM than on something with deep pipes and fancy branch prediction. |
| 19:16.14 | gdsx | Goosey: basically, since we're not advertising the JNI as a public API right now, we can break it if we see fit |
| 19:16.26 | RyeBrye | that makes sense |
| 19:16.29 | fadden | See also JamVM 1.5.x's implementation of what you described. |
| 19:16.32 | gdsx | Goosey: so if you want something that's guaranteed to not break, you should wait |
| 19:16.50 | fadden | In particular, he didn't enable it for ARM. |
| 19:16.59 | fadden | (IIRC) |
| 19:17.45 | andyross | fadden: We went down this road before, but the brief summary: if you have an interpreter and want to execute an dex instruction, you must (1) fetch the opcode into a register, (2) find the jump target via (at least) an array indirection, (3) branch there (4) execute the instruction (5) branch back. So that's five instructions at least to do the work of just one. For CPU-bound applications, that's huge. |
| 19:18.08 | vol | zhobbs: Actually, i'm not quite sure. I start doing real work on android tomorrow. some other guys here have been working the C side of things for a couple weeks, and finally got the toolchain they need from HTC |
| 19:18.16 | fadden | andyross: no; if you speak arm, see the stuff in dalvik/vm/mterp/armv5 |
| 19:18.35 | fadden | andyross: each instruction handler is 64 bytes exactly, so we just multiply the instruction number |
| 19:18.41 | vol | Lenolium: /me shrugs. I'll find out tomorrow |
| 19:18.46 | jasta | looks into WifiLocks for Five... |
| 19:18.50 | fadden | we use "threaded" execution, so the tail end of each handler does the fetch+branch |
| 19:18.51 | jbq | yeah, dalvik vm is optimized a bit more than a plain jump table. |
| 19:19.07 | fadden | There's no jump table, no double-branch. |
| 19:19.54 | stadlero | yay barrel shifters |
| 19:20.11 | andyross | Meh. I'll get benchmarks for you guys at some point. Not an issue for me currently. |
| 19:20.26 | fadden | The "portable" C implementation also uses threaded execution to avoid the double-branch, but there's no getting around the jump table there. |
| 19:20.38 | jbq | andyross: don't forget to include the disk and RAM usage in your benchmarks. |
| 19:21.09 | andyross | Disk? :) Look, I understand that there are things other than CPU cycles that affect performance. But that doesn't mean that CPU bound applications don't exist, either. |
| 19:21.25 | fadden | andyross: what you described as your basic JIT is JamVM's "inline-threaded interpreter"; see http://jamvm.sourceforge.net/ |
| 19:22.25 | muthu_ | what's this active-installs thing from market stats? |
| 19:22.43 | jbq | andyross: No, I mean, various VM and JIT strategies require to store more or less data in RAM or on disk, and those can't be ignored in a super-contrained environment like a phone. |
| 19:23.39 | muthu_ | anyone know how many apps in market as of now? |
| 19:23.48 | fadden | See the "NEWS" file, which lists performance improvements due to the inline-threading and stack-caching. 300% on P4, 200% on AMD 64. 70% on Core 2 Duo, 30% on PPC. It's *very* architecture sensitive. |
| 19:23.56 | Disconnect | thinks its nuts that this phone is super-constrained, at least as far as disk :( |
| 19:24.05 | fadden | The small cache on ARM makes it not as useful, though getting stuff into the I-cache vs. the D-cache can help. |
| 19:24.29 | *** join/#android Ritzerisk (n=Ritztech@nv-65-40-156-46.sta.embarqhsd.net) |
| 19:24.50 | fadden | Bottom line: "cheap JIT" is very likely not a win on ARM. You really need to go all-in. |
| 19:24.52 | jbq | Disconnect: those are high-volume devices in a price-sensitive market. |
| 19:25.22 | Ritzerisk | anyone know of a good sip stack to use |
| 19:26.09 | *** join/#android oavdeev (n=oavdeev@80.86.251.77) |
| 19:26.30 | Disconnect | jbq: nokia and dell managed to sell e90's for $900 in the usa, and without even the -possibility- of 3g or any sort of carrier support. |
| 19:27.17 | Disconnect | but it comes down to the "our users are too dumb to be allowed to have our devices" security model that doesn't allow expansion onto the sd card (i know, "yet"..but there are barely any apps out and -already- you can fill all storage with a reasonable app load...) |
| 19:27.18 | jbq | I'd rather be (again) on the side that sells millions of units a day, not dozens. |
| 19:27.34 | andyross | fadden: Maybe you can enlighten me, because I'm getting confused. The actual CPU cycles required to do something like load two numbers, add them, and store the result (4 instructions in native code) are what in dalvik? You've got four interpreter instructions in memory and a pointer to them in a register. Now what? "Cheap JIT" will map those to four real instructions and see no penalty. |
| 19:28.20 | fadden | andyross: that's not a *cheap* JIT, wherein you just assemble interpreter fragments. |
| 19:28.55 | jbq | Disconnect: if that's the way you take it, there's no point discussion this with you. |
| 19:29.54 | Disconnect | jbq: a security policy that defends against rogue -apps- allows users to issue exceptions. this security policy defends against rogue -users-. |
| 19:29.57 | Cedric2 | Disconnect: there are a lot of tricky problems associated with apps running from the sd card |
| 19:30.08 | andyross | Yeah, that's what I thought. What I described wasn't what you heard. But it *is* cheap to implement. Just emit the obvious instructions for the obvious candidates and emit calls to handler functions for the hard java stuff. That won't get you to gcc performance, but it'll be a factor of 3-4 for cpu-bound code, which is nothing to sneeze at. |
| 19:30.30 | muthu_ | if the apps decide to put their storage in sdcard, that might help |
| 19:30.34 | tmccrary | Has google sent any rough goals for JIT capability in Android? |
| 19:30.34 | jbq | There's some DRM in there, we have to defend against rogue users. |
| 19:30.40 | jbq | (that's literally the law) |
| 19:31.03 | Disconnect | jbq: you have to defend the radios. (and its not a law, its a regulation.) |
| 19:31.29 | jbq | That too, but it's not my domain. |
| 19:31.30 | *** join/#android loke_ (n=Loke@bb121-7-247-70.singnet.com.sg) |
| 19:31.35 | fadden | andyross: I have somewhere a distribution of the most popular Dalvik instructions over some modest sample. The most popular was pulling a value out of a field. Basic math ops were much lower. |
| 19:31.38 | tmccrary | its a regulation from the organization that says whether your device is legal for use in the US or not |
| 19:31.42 | tmccrary | so its a law at some point |
| 19:31.58 | gdsx | Disconnect: we have to defend our users against social engineering |
| 19:31.58 | fadden | We can come up with arbitrary examples that lean one way or the other, of course. |
| 19:32.50 | andyross | Is that a sample over instructions in files, or of instructions actually executed? CPUs in the real world tend to spend most of their time in CPU-bound code. But even so: the goal here would be an interpreter environment that doesn't make stuff like game development suck. Games are rather more likely to be CPU-bound than GUI display logic. |
| 19:32.51 | fadden | But I don't think there's value in sinking too much dev effort into a partial win. The compute-heavy stuff is best done in JNI anyway (and maybe not with gcc as your compiler). |
| 19:32.57 | Disconnect | tmccrary: laws and regulations are -very- different things. despite what the fcc and tsa and so forth would like to convince you.. (for one thing, laws are passed by politicians of some sort.) |
| 19:33.02 | Disconnect | in any case. |
| 19:33.13 | fadden | andyross: in android.os.Debug there's some interpreted instruction count hooks. |
| 19:34.02 | Disconnect | social engineering is a straw man here, because - as was discussed earlier - most apps request all -SORTS- of weird perms in the current env, and people are going to be trainde to just say yes no matter what. |
| 19:34.04 | andyross | Disconnect: completely off topic, but laws and regulations really aren't that different. Regulations are laws written by the executive branch. |
| 19:35.11 | gdsx | Disconnect: yes, that's still a problem. |
| 19:37.31 | Disconnect | andyross: http://www.libraries.psu.edu/socialsciences/law/lawvreg.htm but yah, its rather OT :) |
| 19:38.15 | Disconnect | gdsx: pretend i'm just as slow as you think i am :) and explain how preventing me from installing openvpn (jni aside) somehow protects me or my grandmother from social engineering. |
| 19:38.43 | Disconnect | i'm seriously curious here, because i don't think its the right answer |
| 19:39.34 | RyeBrye | The G1 is pretty sweet... I'm installing about a dozen apps right now :) |
| 19:40.15 | gdsx | Disconnect: is this fundamentally a question about not being able to get root? |
| 19:40.29 | gdsx | Disconnect: otherwise, I'm not sure exactly what you're asking |
| 19:40.51 | Disconnect | yah. i accept (provisionally) that tmob wants to restrict flashing. beyond that.... |
| 19:40.53 | Disconnect | but i'll bbiab |
| 19:41.37 | Cedric2 | RyeBrye: don't forget to install Translate, it's indispensable |
| 19:42.47 | gdsx | Disconnect: basically, if an app has root, it can subvert other apps, use their permissions, etc. So the problem is that an app with root can grab all of your data from all of the services that the phone can access, and then send them to places you don't trust |
| 19:43.23 | RyeBrye | Translate? What does it do? |
| 19:43.24 | Disconnect | -if- you do something to grant root. and bear in mind, with the current method, users are going to grant all those permissions -anyway- if the app asks for it. |
| 19:44.07 | RyeBrye | is the t-mobile hotspot connector still screwed up? |
| 19:44.20 | Disconnect | i agree that removing the possibility removes the accidental, but what -added- bonus does that give? i can write an app right now that requests a bunch of info and sends it somewhere unsafe. and if i have even a vaguely plausible reason for the perms request, nobody will question it.. they'll just click yes. |
| 19:44.43 | gdsx | Disconnect: but you can't trust the vast majority of users to know whether an app needs root or not. Admittedly, the same is true with the current permissions stuff, but that still doesn't open up unrelated applications to attack |
| 19:45.04 | Disconnect | hell there were devs in here the other day urging me to say yes to the wildcard perms (broken cert?) that itunes remote wanted. developers, who should have known better.. |
| 19:45.52 | *** join/#android DrTune (n=raplin@c-24-6-43-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 19:46.46 | Disconnect | gdsx: except there is a big conflict here - apps with private data should store it in flash, but apps with important or large data should store it on sd... and anything on sd is available to anyone. so i suspect i don't think thats as big a protection as you do. |
| 19:47.40 | gdsx | Disconnect: I'm pretty sure that there's nowhere suggesting apps store data that is sensitive in any way on the sd card. Yes, there are space issues that we're looking at ways to alleviate. But sd card is wide open |
| 19:48.35 | Disconnect | gdsx: so i've got an app that generates 5 megs of data an hour (say, detailed gps tracking with images) .. where do i save all that? its potentially sensitive (location and images) |
| 19:48.54 | gdsx | Disconnect: you upload it somewhere with SSL |
| 19:49.02 | fadden | Or encrypt it before saving it. |
| 19:49.04 | gdsx | Disconnect: or you encrypt it |
| 19:49.07 | ttuttle | help! how do I type Escape in ConnectBot! |
| 19:49.09 | ttuttle | ? |
| 19:49.13 | Disconnect | gdsx: that'll quickly run into tmobs bandwidth caps. |
| 19:49.15 | umdk1d3 | ttuttle: double tap trackball |
| 19:49.21 | gdsx | ttuttle: up, up, down, down, square |
| 19:49.35 | gdsx | Disconnect: do it over wifi |
| 19:49.44 | ttuttle | umdk1d3: thanks! |
| 19:49.47 | Disconnect | and if there is encryption on the device then we're back to where i started - the data is already either as protected or as open as its gonna get, regardless of root or perms. |
| 19:49.49 | gdsx | Disconnect: I mean, there are going to be limits to what you can do, no doubt |
| 19:50.13 | Lenolium | Disconnect: Store the data encrypted on the sdcard, store the encryption key protected in main memory. |
| 19:50.17 | Disconnect | gdsx: if i've got wifi chances are i've got much more local computing power than a g1 and wouldn't be doing this to begin with. |
| 19:50.19 | *** join/#android greudin (n=g@AMarseille-156-1-80-29.w90-28.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 19:50.54 | gdsx | Disconnect: at this point, I've got to get back to work, and I dont' think the discussino is really going anywhere |
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| 19:51.25 | gdsx | Disconnect: it's easy to come up with situations that won't work with what's there right now. you get to deal with it, or find creative solutions |
| 19:51.36 | Disconnect | gdsx: i still don't see what i gain there, as a corporate user (or as a developer) vs what i lose.. |
| 19:51.46 | gdsx | (or wait for other stuff to roll around) |
| 19:52.02 | Disconnect | fair enough, but that solution is simple (and istr there's an app out there that does that sort of thing already) - gps track and/or routing with pictures.. |
| 19:52.18 | gdsx | panoramio, but anyway... |
| 19:52.19 | Disconnect | er, that problem i meant |
| 19:52.39 | Disconnect | is there a built-in encryption method? |
| 19:52.41 | Lenolium | So, is it much of an issue to let my G1 run the battery all the way out? |
| 19:53.14 | vol | no, doing so will give you better battery life it seems? |
| 19:53.36 | Cedric2 | Lenolium: it's actually recommended in the beginning. Drain it out, recharge it completely, repeat a few times |
| 19:53.41 | Lenolium | vol: Yeah, I don't think it will give you better battery life, just better battery status reporting. |
| 19:53.48 | Disconnect | Lenolium: ...which translates to battery life |
| 19:53.52 | Disconnect | since it shuts down based on that status |
| 19:53.56 | andyross | Lenolium: clearly yes: your phone will fail when the battery runs out. :) |
| 19:53.57 | Disconnect | and stops charging based on it too.. |
| 19:54.48 | Disconnect | this isn't nicad country anymore :) |
| 19:55.30 | vol | this is flavor country |
| 19:56.49 | Disconnect | heh |
| 19:57.06 | Disconnect | does know what flavor the g1 is leaving so far.. :( but at least most of it is software related. |
| 19:57.56 | Lenolium | Disconnect: Hey, no complaining about the software until I release my Netflix app, then you can really start complaining. |
| 19:58.07 | Disconnect | doesn't use netflix. |
| 19:58.28 | Disconnect | but do me a favor - cache full-size movie posters on the app partition, since its app-specific data that shouldn't be exposed on the sd card :) |
| 19:59.03 | RyeBrye | I accidently the entire android market? |
| 19:59.10 | vol | ... |
| 19:59.12 | vol | you accidentally what |
| 19:59.19 | RyeBrye | bad joke... |
| 19:59.24 | Cedric2 | Disconnect: there are probably copyright issues with that |
| 19:59.45 | Lenolium | Actually, Netflix allows you to keep the downloaded data for only 24 hours. |
| 19:59.48 | Disconnect | Cedric2: depends. but thats why they have to be cached off the sd card, keep them inside the app thats allowed to use them. |
| 20:00.06 | Cedric2 | Disconnect: yes I misunderstood what you said, sorry |
| 20:00.20 | Disconnect | Lenolium: but if its a netflix app certainly it'll have a queue manager.. and that queue manager can legitimately download a few dozen movie posters to the onboard storage...... :) |
| 20:01.06 | RyeBrye | Does anyone else find it ironic that there is no "search" in the Google app market? |
| 20:01.12 | Cedric2 | There is |
| 20:01.13 | RyeBrye | ERRR |
| 20:01.14 | RyeBrye | NM :) |
| 20:01.23 | RyeBrye | extracts foot from mouth and clicks "menu button" |
| 20:01.53 | *** join/#android jmo (n=joeo@74.125.60.1) |
| 20:01.58 | wastrel | google is terrible about search ;] |
| 20:02.14 | Disconnect | they were when i was searching for anycut... :) |
| 20:02.31 | RyeBrye | Isn't there some kndof GPS tools application? |
| 20:04.43 | *** join/#android greudin_ (n=g@AMarseille-156-1-80-29.w90-28.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 20:04.51 | Lenolium | So, the other question i have is hardware related: How bad is the compass on your G1? mine is fairly useless. |
| 20:05.03 | RyeBrye | I can't tell yet |
| 20:05.09 | RyeBrye | Is the compass just GPS based? |
| 20:05.24 | RyeBrye | for those to work, in my experience, you have to walk in a straight line for a meter or two and then stop so it has some idea of your orientation |
| 20:06.13 | Disconnect | no its supposed to be a proper compass |
| 20:06.15 | waldo_ | no it's a compus |
| 20:06.37 | Disconnect | and mine is .. not good. part of that may be orientation tho, not sure whether its flat (like a physical compass) or if its vertical |
| 20:06.38 | RyeBrye | Oh |
| 20:06.50 | pawalls | Lenolium, Try waving the phone around in a figure-eight for a while. Works well for calibration (for whatever reason). |
| 20:07.02 | waldo_ | i havent checked mine for accuracy, but it does work where you spin it around in google's street view and the image rotates |
| 20:07.03 | RyeBrye | Umm... UNless they reversed the earth's poles on me in my sleep - mine is saying South is directly north? |
| 20:07.12 | pawalls | Disconnect, Should work correctly when held vertically. |
| 20:07.23 | pawalls | But like I mentioned, sometimes you have to shake the phone around for it to behave correctly. |
| 20:07.48 | Disconnect | RyeBrye: and you want 'orienteer' for basic/raw gps/compass info |
| 20:07.53 | waldo_ | has someone made a simple boy-scout like compass app? |
| 20:08.06 | RyeBrye | Yeah, I did get orienteer on now |
| 20:08.39 | RyeBrye | GPS is tied to the data plan activation? |
| 20:08.55 | Disconnect | ..no? |
| 20:09.00 | RyeBrye | oh |
| 20:09.10 | RyeBrye | apologizes if his n00b is stinking up the room |
| 20:09.30 | *** join/#android DaMiEn667 (n=me@rrcs-24-173-12-106.sw.biz.rr.com) |
| 20:10.10 | *** join/#android DaMiEn667 (n=me@rrcs-24-173-12-106.sw.biz.rr.com) |
| 20:14.17 | *** join/#android dam1en667 (n=me@rrcs-24-173-12-106.sw.biz.rr.com) |
| 20:14.21 | RyeBrye | T-mobile is so nice to sell 2GB microSD cards right from their website to you... for $40 |
| 20:16.09 | gdsx | RyeBrye: it's free money. It's just like Dell selling you memory |
| 20:16.59 | RyeBrye | If I were to pay $40 for a 2gb microSD card, I'd expect it to have such a fast data rate that it would be capable of catching my phone on fire |
| 20:17.31 | *** join/#android DaMiEn667 (n=DaMiEn66@rrcs-24-173-12-106.sw.biz.rr.com) |
| 20:17.40 | Disconnect | fwiw bestbuy of all places has 8g for $45. its tagged at almost 2x that (and the various compare-bot apps thought it was too) but they ran a check and i was $45. |
| 20:17.54 | Disconnect | is holding out for 16g tho, once the stupid microusb adapters show up |
| 20:17.56 | DaMiEn667 | Hello |
| 20:18.12 | DaMiEn667 | anyone here wanna talk about the G1? |
| 20:18.27 | *** join/#android SyntaxNinja (n=ijones@pdx.galois.com) |
| 20:18.50 | Disconnect | no |
| 20:19.07 | Disconnect | try #tmobile-g1 |
| 20:19.29 | DaMiEn667 | thx |
| 20:19.56 | *** join/#android ralfz (n=ralf@nat/google/x-fed340d9c61bcc46) |
| 20:19.59 | RyeBrye | you are cruel :) |
| 20:20.02 | DaMiEn667 | yes you are |
| 20:20.06 | DaMiEn667 | I'm no newb here |
| 20:20.07 | tethridge | Disconnect, you suck |
| 20:20.11 | tethridge | :-) |
| 20:20.12 | jeld | Disconnect, :) |
| 20:20.39 | DaMiEn667 | I got tired of looking at google and xda-developers for answers |
| 20:20.52 | DaMiEn667 | so I decided to come ask you guys |
| 20:21.03 | Cedric2 | I see what you did there |
| 20:21.04 | DaMiEn667 | anyone have any luck getting root access on the adb shell yet? |
| 20:21.27 | fadden | No, and you NEVER WILL!!! |
| 20:21.27 | SyntaxNinja | Greetings! I've been experimenting w/ the emulator and helloWorld type applications. I'm having trouble finding solid information; is there a way to browse the market without the market application that wuld be on the G1 phone? is it possible to get the default setup for the G1 in the emulator with all the applications? |
| 20:21.32 | fadden | Well, you might. |
| 20:21.49 | fadden | We wanted you guys to have a nice challenge. |
| 20:21.54 | tmccrary | It's a foregone conclusion ;) |
| 20:22.17 | kslater | SyntaxNinja: pretty sure the answer is no |
| 20:22.18 | DaMiEn667 | all of the sarcasm aside.... I take that as a no |
| 20:22.29 | RyeBrye | yeah, but the question is - did HTC want us to have a nice challenge, and how well did they protect the bootloader? |
| 20:22.33 | umdk1d3 | dances around the room I WIN ^.^ |
| 20:22.33 | fadden | I'm not aware of a root exploit yet. |
| 20:22.49 | Cedric2 | I'm sure that as soon as someone finds a way to do that, it will be all over slashdot |
| 20:23.02 | Cedric2 | Not that I'm recommending you to subscribe to the /. newsfeed, which would be cruel |
| 20:23.08 | DaMiEn667 | does anyone know if the bootloader resembles anything like the other HTC ones? |
| 20:23.21 | RyeBrye | it looks simlar to other screen shots |
| 20:23.35 | RyeBrye | hold down the camera button and the power button when you turn it on |
| 20:23.49 | RyeBrye | it flashes something, then comes up and says "serial 0" - which goes away when I hit the back button |
| 20:23.58 | DaMiEn667 | do we get access to it over USB when it's in bootloader mode? |
| 20:24.13 | RyeBrye | so far the answer is no |
| 20:24.41 | RyeBrye | it doesn't appear to show up on the USB bus when it's in bootloader mode |
| 20:25.01 | RyeBrye | I'd take mine apart but there is a little "void" sticker on one of the screws ;) |
| 20:25.23 | SyntaxNinja | is there a Market application I can install onto the emujlator so I can bootstrap installing other stuff |
| 20:25.27 | tmccrary | I noticed that today getting my 3g working :) |
| 20:25.43 | RyeBrye | but wait... if the sticker is there, does that mean the warranty is already void? |
| 20:25.43 | RyeBrye | ;) |
| 20:25.52 | umdk1d3 | what happend? o.o what do you mean? |
| 20:26.10 | umdk1d3 | gah wrong window |
| 20:26.36 | RyeBrye | hey, where are the private keys for T-mobile's flash images in the git repository? |
| 20:26.48 | RyeBrye | ;) |
| 20:28.18 | RyeBrye | what is that thing right next to the sim card that looks like it's removable but is covered witha little flap on one edge of it? |
| 20:28.45 | *** part/#android Dougie187 (n=doug@wg-d232092.dsl.fsu.edu) |
| 20:29.12 | romainguy_ | the microSD |
| 20:29.15 | Disconnect | the microsd card maybe? opent he kb, look at the edge of the main body above the talk button |
| 20:29.28 | *** join/#android greudin__ (n=g@AMarseille-156-1-80-29.w90-28.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 20:29.44 | Disconnect | (in teh space exposed by the kb open) .. thats the lip of the cover. pull it out and you can see the microsd. prolly there are clearer directions in the docs :) |
| 20:30.06 | RyeBrye | i'm pretty sure it's not hte microsd - it's right next to the "void" sticker screw on mine - between it and the SIM card under the back casing |
| 20:30.59 | Disconnect | oh little silver dealy? thats the vibe |
| 20:30.59 | gdsx | RyeBrye: next to the "void" sticker that you're going to ignore? ;o) |
| 20:31.05 | Disconnect | not a flap |
| 20:31.08 | Disconnect | or its the camera button |
| 20:31.09 | RyeBrye | Ahh |
| 20:31.10 | gdsx | (note: I'm not suggesting you do that :o) |
| 20:31.13 | RyeBrye | Probably the vibrate thing |
| 20:31.14 | zhobbs | almost looks like a capacitor |
| 20:31.18 | Disconnect | vibe |
| 20:31.19 | gdsx | camera button's on the other side |
| 20:31.23 | DaMiEn667 | it's the flux capacitor |
| 20:31.26 | wastrel | camera is not so good |
| 20:31.34 | wastrel | i can't take a decent picture with it anyway |
| 20:31.47 | gdsx | wastrel: try shooting with the battery cover off |
| 20:31.56 | Disconnect | lots of light, very steady shot, no motion |
| 20:32.08 | RyeBrye | I will likely not obey the void sticker once I get a decent service manual describing how |
| 20:32.08 | wastrel | gdsx: srsly? that's inconvenient :] |
| 20:32.24 | gdsx | wastrel: I've heard it helps; I haven't tried |
| 20:32.25 | RyeBrye | because service manuals often also describe what to look for to check for signs of it being taken apart before |
| 20:32.57 | zhobbs | btw, where is the damn quake apk that google will demo but not release? |
| 20:33.36 | *** join/#android rwhitby` (n=rwhitby@au1.astc-design.com) |
| 20:33.54 | gdsx | zhobbs: we're not releasing it currently because it uses native code, which is not supported right now |
| 20:34.01 | zhobbs | ah |
| 20:34.19 | Disconnect | ..cuz java isn't fast enough? :) |
| 20:34.32 | Cedric2 | Java was too fast, it was unplayable |
| 20:34.37 | Disconnect | heh |
| 20:34.38 | RyeBrye | lol |
| 20:35.47 | gdsx | Cedric2: clearly, that means HTC should have installed a Turbo button |
| 20:36.30 | andyross | gdsx: It was pointed out that the Mandelbrot application on the market is, in fact, using native code via the write-a-JNI-library-to-disk mechanism. So clearly you're distributing it, even if not supporting it. |
| 20:37.01 | Disconnect | cuz when the fractals went that fast people had seizures |
| 20:39.13 | RyeBrye | this phone should come with a midget to help you change the microSD card |
| 20:39.26 | jasta | seriously, i had to have my gf do that |
| 20:39.47 | marcone | why would you ever change it? Just stick in 8GB or 16GB and never worry about it again |
| 20:39.59 | andyross | I used a pair of tweezers. But yeah: the card cover/flap thing is just not good engineering. |
| 20:40.00 | marcone | OK, maybe next year when 32GB cards are out, you'll want to change it... |
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| 20:40.26 | jasta | marcone: well, everyone's gonna want to change it at least once :) |
| 20:40.30 | jasta | i literally couldnt do it |
| 20:40.33 | RyeBrye | I was just going to solder 2 16 gb ones together... probably in series, right? if it were in parallel the capacity would drop in half? |
| 20:40.38 | RyeBrye | ;) |
| 20:40.55 | marcone | andyross: would you have preferred the sd card be located underneath the battery, like in other phones? :) |
| 20:41.00 | gdsx | RyeBrye: quotefiled |
| 20:41.15 | RyeBrye | :) |
| 20:41.16 | jasta | marcone: well, it would have been easier for programmers :) |
| 20:41.36 | andyross | marcone: Maybe. As stated, it doesn't get changed much. The frustration with the G1 is that you feel like you're going to snap that flap off trying to get a clear path to the card. |
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| 20:43.32 | fadden | The G1 is optimized for people with really long fingernails. |
| 20:43.41 | tmccrary | I'm used to it, my Nokia 770 had practically the same exact mechanism for the SD card |
| 20:43.44 | Death_Syn | after I swapped the 1gb card with 4gb, I haven't had to touch the card door |
| 20:43.46 | marcone | it never felt like the flap was coming off, but I did feel like my fingernail was coming off at times |
| 20:43.51 | Disconnect | marcone: e90 has a reasonable door at the bottom (and its one of the only other ones that allows hotswap) |
| 20:43.52 | Death_Syn | i just plug it into my pc to talk to the card |
| 20:44.00 | vol | fadden: no, it's not, my fingernail doesn't activate the touchscreen : ( |
| 20:44.09 | ironfroggy_ | im sure someone here has/does use connectbot? |
| 20:44.20 | spikebike | I hope I get my 8GB card |
| 20:44.26 | spikebike | I do, but I'm kinda screwed |
| 20:44.26 | Disconnect | ironfroggy_: i'm sure too. |
| 20:44.31 | fadden | vol: okay, "fingernail". You only need one long one. :-) |
| 20:44.34 | spikebike | I installed it from the web |
| 20:44.38 | RyeBrye | I was originally planning to have a set of a couple of microSD cards rotate between my mythtv and my phone so I could have it auto-remove commercials and auto-transcode TV shows I record onto my SD card so I could just grab, swap, and go |
| 20:44.45 | spikebike | now I can't upgrade to the one on the app store because it claims it's signed with the wrong key |
| 20:44.45 | vol | fadden: nothing exxcept my meaty finger seems to work :\ |
| 20:44.46 | RyeBrye | now I realize that my plan was flawed |
| 20:44.54 | ironfroggy_ | anyone know if connectbot maps anything as an escape key? |
| 20:45.03 | Disconnect | RyeBrye: too bad it doesn't play video :) |
| 20:45.15 | spikebike | is there any way to remove an application installed from the web? |
| 20:45.17 | RyeBrye | Video player? Doesn't it have hardware h264 playback? |
| 20:45.19 | Disconnect | ironfroggy_: do menu-> about .. second page is kb shortcuts. but short version, double-tap the trackball |
| 20:45.23 | spikebike | or do I have to reset the g1? |
| 20:45.28 | vol | spikebike: absolutely |
| 20:45.32 | vol | you remove it like any other app |
| 20:45.43 | spikebike | any other app I can do through the app store |
| 20:45.56 | spikebike | but this wasn't installed through the app store |
| 20:45.56 | vol | go to settings -> applications |
| 20:46.03 | vol | -> Manage applications |
| 20:46.10 | vol | sorry, assumed you were going through there |
| 20:46.18 | vol | you could also use adb to connect to the device and use adb remove |
| 20:48.14 | spikebike | ah, simple |
| 20:48.20 | spikebike | I feel like an idiot |
| 20:48.22 | *** join/#android BBHoss (n=bbhoss@user-24-214-210-231.knology.net) |
| 20:48.22 | spikebike | that worked |
| 20:48.28 | vol | :> |
| 20:50.21 | poetic_folly|G5 | huh eggy |
| 20:51.24 | RyeBrye | How much phone storage is available on a new one? I've only got 55 megs left? |
| 20:51.30 | eggy | poetic_folly|G5 ;) |
| 20:51.41 | poetic_folly|G5 | indeed |
| 20:51.48 | eggy | sweet. |
| 20:52.03 | romainguy_ | RyeBrye: that's expected yes |
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| 20:53.25 | Disconnect | neat, a bunch of blank activities in anycut. wonder which of them uses the BRICK permission? :) |
| 20:53.59 | Disconnect | and field test works, neat |
| 20:54.05 | Tauno | (what exactly does this do? :) ) |
| 20:54.16 | jasta | man, i really enjoy this gerrit system |
| 20:54.26 | jasta | google did a great job on the workflow for community members |
| 20:54.42 | vol | Disconnect: Yeah, I discovered Brick the other night. |
| 20:54.48 | vol | Tried installing an app from the web with it |
| 20:54.58 | vol | holy shit it wanted to overwrite the android app |
| 20:55.09 | vol | (app from the web that I wrote and hosted so to see the permission that popped up) |
| 20:55.34 | Disconnect | yah. someone should sacrifice themselves and try it. |
| 20:55.50 | *** join/#android osmosis (n=steven@63.139.86.3) |
| 20:55.50 | Disconnect | googlie-mooglies, i'm looking at you... :) |
| 20:55.59 | Disconnect | (since you can reflash) |
| 20:56.08 | RyeBrye | That's funny |
| 20:57.14 | vol | well, I did adb install by accident :\ |
| 20:57.17 | vol | it didn't fuck up my phone |
| 20:57.28 | vol | though I've been having data issues today, but I could use data the other day so I'm pretty sure that's not it. |
| 20:57.36 | *** part/#android DrTune (n=raplin@c-24-6-43-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 20:57.53 | vol | can also get emails. |
| 20:57.57 | tomgibara | jasta: I'm amused to read that after all of your comments along the lines of "Google don't get open source" :) |
| 20:58.24 | jasta | you must have misread my comments, in fact. |
| 20:58.35 | jasta | i never once said they don't get it, i said i'm concerned they do not get it. |
| 20:59.00 | tomgibara | You must have misread my comment, I said: "along the lines of" |
| 20:59.28 | tomgibara | So far I've only uploaded one simple patch, but it's been pretty smooth sailing. |
| 20:59.33 | jasta | the source drop was impossible to predict |
| 20:59.43 | jasta | but i am pleased with how this is structured, certainly |
| 20:59.55 | jasta | and im pleased with the quality of the product in general, which i also could not have foreseen |
| 21:00.11 | tomgibara | I was really impressed with the whole organisation. |
| 21:00.13 | jasta | despite that i do think the phone should be marketted as T-Mobile G1 (BETA) :) |
| 21:00.42 | tomgibara | I felt like a child in a sweet shop, scanning over the source the first day. |
| 21:00.47 | ttuttle | tomgibara: heh |
| 21:01.01 | jasta | i would say so far, many of my fears have been allayed. and blieve me, i'm happy about that :) |
| 21:01.07 | Disconnect | tomgibara: don't forget you can't do anything with that source on a production device :) |
| 21:01.30 | tomgibara | Disconnect: I can commit back to the project :P |
| 21:01.36 | jasta | tomgibara: but from the information we all had, it could have just as easily gone the other way, so i don't feel silly for having the attitude i did. |
| 21:01.50 | romainguy_ | that'll teach you not to trust us :p |
| 21:01.56 | jasta | actually, it won't. |
| 21:02.14 | tomgibara | jasta: No, I didn't say you were silly, but I was just not as pessimistic. |
| 21:02.17 | Disconnect | yah and they accept code fairly reasonably it seems, which is great. but then they have to issue a platform release, and then (eventually) tmob has to test it (in theory..) and schedule it for an OTA update (which is almost guarantied to brick some devices, so its a risk).. |
| 21:02.22 | jasta | it'll just teach me not to categorically mistrust you. |
| 21:02.26 | *** join/#android BBHoss_ (n=bbhoss@user-24-214-210-231.knology.net) |
| 21:02.43 | *** join/#android duey (n=duey@203.96.223.40) |
| 21:02.49 | tomgibara | Disconnect: Since I intend to own an Android phone, I'm glad that the carriers will be cautious. |
| 21:02.55 | SyntaxNinja | is there a way to install the "Android market" application itself onto the emulator? I can'T find it for download anywhere. |
| 21:02.57 | jasta | tomgibara: well, the NDA business is what raised all of my red flags. prior to that, i would not have thought anything sinister was afoot :) |
| 21:03.09 | ttuttle | SyntaxNinja: You can pull it off a production device, but it doesn't work on the emulator. It just dies. |
| 21:03.13 | ttuttle | SyntaxNinja: (I tried.) |
| 21:03.24 | Disconnect | tomgibara: it'd be better if it were possible to do updates/flashes from the desktop. since that alleviates the whole "omg ota failed and now my phone it is paperweight!" |
| 21:03.26 | jasta | ttuttle: you can't pull it off a production device except for your fancy debug build |
| 21:03.33 | romainguy_ | Disconnect: you can |
| 21:03.36 | tomgibara | jasta: I seem to remember saying at the time, the whole NDA thing was pathetic (fairly strong wording for me) |
| 21:03.39 | romainguy_ | Disconnect: you can do updates from the sdcard |
| 21:03.44 | ttuttle | jasta: Wait, you can't? |
| 21:03.50 | SyntaxNinja | hm. that's too bad :( |
| 21:03.50 | jasta | ttuttle: no, /system/app and /data/app are unreadable |
| 21:03.55 | ttuttle | jasta: Do adb pull/push not work on regular... oh. :-( |
| 21:04.00 | jasta | in fact, just about EVERYTHIGN is unreadable. |
| 21:04.05 | Disconnect | romainguy_: right.. but if i get creative and turn off my phone mid-update, its bricked. i can't go to google.com or android.com or my.tmobile.com and get anything to fix it. |
| 21:04.36 | Disconnect | and thats going to happen a small percentage of the time with OTA updates.. |
| 21:04.50 | ttuttle | Disconnect: You can't turn it out without taking the battery out. |
| 21:04.54 | jasta | tomgibara: well, either way i'm relieved and very excited for the future of this project. |
| 21:05.02 | jasta | tomgibara: i saw that you starte dhacking on it already as well hhee |
| 21:05.04 | ttuttle | Disconnect: And it's also got a recovery filesystem that it can boot to if you brick the regular stuff. |
| 21:05.07 | jasta | been browsing gerrit lately |
| 21:05.10 | Disconnect | nokia's new method (and one that ohter manufs have had in various forms for years) is better.. little win32 app that says "are you allowed to have this update? <read imei> .. ok!" and reflashes it |
| 21:05.21 | ttuttle | Disconnect: nice ;-) |
| 21:05.23 | Disconnect | ttuttle: i'm sure that method will come, but for now.. |
| 21:05.24 | jasta | tomgibara: i'm implementing IMAP IDLE into the e-mail app and some other goodies |
| 21:05.40 | spikebike | detests anything that requires a little windows app |
| 21:05.41 | tomgibara | jasta: My contribution has been much more modest |
| 21:05.50 | *** join/#android foobar`` (n=foobar@dhcp-168-59.EECS.Berkeley.EDU) |
| 21:05.52 | Disconnect | ttuttle: users are ingenious. and "it was blinking this funny symbol so i took the battery out so i could make a call" |
| 21:05.54 | jasta | tomgibara: i have a 4 line patch in the tree already hehe |
| 21:05.57 | Lenolium | jasta: Are you the one releasing K9-Mail? or is that someone else. (Also, has support for invalid SSL certificates in IMAP been added yet?) |
| 21:05.59 | spikebike | jasta cool, as a personal project or as a paid developer? |
| 21:06.05 | ttuttle | Disconnect: Users are generally dumb :-( |
| 21:06.10 | jasta | Lenolium: that is someone else, i have heard it is quite poorly written as well |
| 21:06.17 | Disconnect | ttuttle: right. but thats why you have desktop flashing as a fallback. |
| 21:06.22 | Disconnect | and as soon as that happens.. bootloader is wide open. |
| 21:06.22 | ttuttle | Disconnect: Yeah. |
| 21:06.26 | ttuttle | Disconnect: Not true. |
| 21:06.30 | jasta | spikebike: well, personal, but it won't take me but a couple of weekends to finish |
| 21:06.38 | ttuttle | Disconnect: The bootloader can know how to verify digital signatures ;-) |
| 21:06.38 | jasta | so i wouldnt call it a project |
| 21:06.43 | spikebike | cool, just curious |
| 21:06.50 | jasta | spikebike: my project is http://five.googlecode.com |
| 21:06.51 | pawalls | Lenolium, I'm told that selecting "SSL (if available)" will make it accept self-signed certs. |
| 21:06.53 | spikebike | heh, well it sounds like it might just grow into one ;-) |
| 21:07.00 | Disconnect | anyway its gtime to go home |
| 21:07.02 | ttuttle | pawalls: yeah, by just not doing SSL :-P |
| 21:07.09 | Disconnect | i'll be on later tho, got some coding to do |
| 21:07.19 | jasta | spikebike: no, i have other greater responsibilities :) |
| 21:07.26 | Disconnect | pawalls: s/self-signed certs/any certs at all/ |
| 21:07.35 | Disconnect | and evidently (recent comment) it doesn't work for smtp |
| 21:07.36 | pawalls | ttuttle, Are you certain that's the case? |
| 21:07.39 | jasta | i'm just trying to get as much hacking done as i can before Diablo III and StarCraft II come out |
| 21:07.42 | ttuttle | pawalls: No, but it sounds very likely. |
| 21:07.54 | *** join/#android spearce (n=spearce@nat/google/x-14928a517824131c) |
| 21:08.11 | tomgibara | jasta: Anyway, I have yet to see if my patch is acceptable - but I produced a small animation test app that could be useful in the right context. Maybe that will find a home somewhere. |
| 21:08.12 | pawalls | ttuttle, I thought so initially as well, but I was informed otherwise.. I suppose one could test by firewalling 443 and leaving only imaps port open. |
| 21:08.16 | fadden | jasta: too late -- Fallout 3 is already out |
| 21:08.21 | *** join/#android DannyB (n=dannyb@c-69-139-151-245.hsd1.md.comcast.net) |
| 21:08.24 | ttuttle | pawalls: 443? 443 is HTTPS! |
| 21:08.26 | romainguy_ | jasta: what part of StarCraft 2? now they decided to split it in 3... |
| 21:08.28 | pawalls | gah.. sorry. |
| 21:08.29 | romainguy_ | fadden: and it's good! |
| 21:08.37 | pawalls | 143 |
| 21:08.43 | ttuttle | pawalls: ah |
| 21:08.44 | pawalls | ttuttle, :-P |
| 21:08.47 | jasta | romainguy_: well, i'll play all 3, but of course i'm most excited by the Protoss campaign |
| 21:09.21 | pawalls | You'd need some logging/instrumentation from your imap server (or some tcpdumping) to determine how it works for starttls though. |
| 21:09.41 | ttuttle | pawalls: Nah, just packetsniff and look for STARTTLS. It'll be plaintext until then. |
| 21:09.55 | pawalls | ttuttle, Right.. which is why I said "some tcpdumping" :-P |
| 21:10.03 | DJTachyon | thinks he should grab some old Wii games and go trade them in for Fallout 3 |
| 21:10.07 | ttuttle | pawalls: Oh, didn't see that bit. |
| 21:10.15 | Lenolium | DJTachyon: That's the right decision. |
| 21:10.27 | michaelnovakjr | DJTachyon: >> /dev/null >> #android-bs |
| 21:10.29 | michaelnovakjr | :) |
| 21:10.30 | DJTachyon | i pre-ordered it .. but then I got a G1 :P |
| 21:10.33 | romainguy_ | too bad that this Fallout is really just an Oblivion with guns |
| 21:10.34 | romainguy_ | bah |
| 21:10.41 | pawalls | ttuttle, imaps is a little more black and white.. because if you firewall the port, it will simply not work if your assumption is correct. |
| 21:10.47 | DJTachyon | well it is the oblivion engine |
| 21:10.57 | DJTachyon | *shrug* |
| 21:11.04 | romainguy_ | DJTachyon: sure but the whole gameplay really feels like Oblivion |
| 21:11.13 | romainguy_ | not as much Fallout as I hoped it would be |
| 21:11.17 | DJTachyon | good thing I didn't play much oblivion then ;) |
| 21:11.24 | fadden | romainguy_: war never changes. |
| 21:11.28 | DJTachyon | lol |
| 21:11.43 | DJTachyon | hmm .. Red Alert 3 I pre-ordered too |
| 21:12.02 | DJTachyon | which should I get first? |
| 21:12.24 | DaMiEn667 | So... anyone use AnyCut to create a shortcut to the manual button that checks for uptdates? |
| 21:12.26 | DJTachyon | hahah! Check it out: http://www.zazzle.com/pd/awards |
| 21:12.34 | DJTachyon | My stamp is on the Best of the Day :) |
| 21:13.13 | DJTachyon | must be some Android fans at Zazzle :P |
| 21:14.00 | DJTachyon | oops and just got another beta email from Skyfire .. don't need that browser anymore .. |
| 21:14.20 | *** join/#android greudin_ (n=g@AMarseille-156-1-80-29.w90-28.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 21:14.32 | wastrel | cutest stamp ever |
| 21:14.57 | DJTachyon | :D |
| 21:16.19 | DJTachyon | ugh i need to rework those blue ones to get the font off it now |
| 21:17.32 | DJTachyon | agh i left the xcf's at work .. guess ill do it tomorrow during lunch :P |
| 21:17.48 | DJTachyon | romainguy: thanks for the head's up on that btw |
| 21:18.14 | romainguy_ | np |
| 21:18.41 | DJTachyon | it seems as long as it isnt in that font it is okay though |
| 21:18.44 | vol | Haven't played Fallout 3 yet, hope you fuckers are lying about it being oblivion |
| 21:18.47 | vol | : ( |
| 21:18.54 | vol | (oblivion was the worst elder scrolls game) |
| 21:19.16 | DJTachyon | what does metacritic have to say? |
| 21:19.54 | DJTachyon | w0w .. 93 so far |
| 21:20.18 | DJTachyon | http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/fallout3?q=fallout%203 |
| 21:20.43 | DJTachyon | that is enough to get my hopes back up |
| 21:20.58 | jasta | romainguy_: so you once said that because the email app cant be build against the 1.0 SDK, i should fix any hidden classes its using? |
| 21:21.46 | *** join/#android plusminus_ (i=4421a620@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-05ed4a13dbbfe129) |
| 21:21.49 | jasta | thinking about doing that so i can build it cleaner, rather than having to copy files into the project from android's tree |
| 21:23.31 | RyeBrye | Ok, the G1 officially sucks at playing back video |
| 21:23.36 | tomgibara | jasta: I was wondering, with such substantial changes, how would your improved email app get QA'd / accepted |
| 21:24.07 | tomgibara | RyeBrye: What video, and what sucks? |
| 21:24.17 | jasta | tomgibara: not my problem |
| 21:24.23 | RyeBrye | just a simple h264 video file encoded via handbrake with iphone HighRes setting |
| 21:24.32 | tethridge | RyeBrye, why is that? |
| 21:24.36 | RyeBrye | and the fact that it doesn't play it back at all and just shows a black screen |
| 21:24.36 | jasta | tomgibara: i'm hoping to launch my modifications onto the market tho, so at least it can get user tested that way |
| 21:24.52 | DJTachyon | RyeBrye: My videos are awesome |
| 21:25.04 | DJTachyon | RyeBrye: i don't know what you are doing wrong |
| 21:25.20 | RyeBrye | I'm probably trying to make it play back videos that are beyond it's capaibilities |
| 21:25.37 | RyeBrye | which isn't hard to do since there is nowhere the damned capabilities are listed |
| 21:25.55 | DJTachyon | did you read the video player description? |
| 21:26.08 | tomgibara | You could browse the source, that might give you some hints |
| 21:27.09 | RyeBrye | The description says 480x352 or smaller |
| 21:27.13 | RyeBrye | but that doesn't say shit about bitrate |
| 21:27.21 | DJTachyon | MPEG4 or 3GPP w/ H264 or H263, and audio in mp3, aac, or amr. 480x352 or smaller |
| 21:27.27 | DJTachyon | oh well try 768k/sec or lower |
| 21:27.32 | RyeBrye | ok |
| 21:27.43 | DJTachyon | i do 512-768 |
| 21:27.53 | DJTachyon | what audio do you use? |
| 21:28.00 | RyeBrye | It's not a huge deal, it's just annoying that it can't handle the vast library of h264 videos already encoded for the iphone |
| 21:28.07 | RyeBrye | The audio is fine |
| 21:28.10 | RyeBrye | I can hear the audio |
| 21:28.19 | RyeBrye | I think it's using aac audio |
| 21:29.05 | romainguy_ | jasta: if you can do it, yes |
| 21:29.13 | romainguy_ | if you can't, or if it's too much work, forget it |
| 21:29.35 | *** join/#android osmosis (n=steven@63.139.86.3) |
| 21:29.55 | DJTachyon | also, the video player app is just using existing API calls. |
| 21:30.09 | DJTachyon | I would love to see what an optimized version of VLC or TCPMP could do |
| 21:30.09 | foobar`` | people with G1s -- does t-mobile forbid you from tethering in the contract? |
| 21:30.20 | DJTachyon | foobar: I don't think so |
| 21:30.33 | RyeBrye | I've tethered with T-mobile and much cheaper data plans than this one |
| 21:30.39 | RyeBrye | tethered over bluetooth |
| 21:30.46 | DJTachyon | foobar: But an app for it hasn't come around yet, not to mention the "soft" transfer limit |
| 21:30.49 | foobar`` | yeah but legally? |
| 21:30.52 | RyeBrye | Yes, legally |
| 21:30.57 | foobar`` | ah |
| 21:30.58 | foobar`` | cool |
| 21:31.03 | RyeBrye | It was a few years ago, so their terms may have changed |
| 21:31.12 | DJTachyon | but isn't the BT API a bit limited ATM |
| 21:31.13 | vol | I didn't see any language forbidding it |
| 21:31.31 | vol | and there's a tethering option in ADB |
| 21:31.35 | RyeBrye | Ihad to explicitly tell the guy I wanted to tether before he would even turn on the good internet plan on my piece of crap pohne - since my phone had no browser or anything in t |
| 21:31.35 | vol | so... |
| 21:31.38 | romainguy_ | DJTachyon: I would love to see what an optimized version of VLC or TCPMP could do << I met one of the VLC guys last weekend |
| 21:31.39 | waldo_ | apparently tmobile "looks the other way" on tethering, from what I hear |
| 21:31.40 | romainguy_ | they want to do something |
| 21:31.47 | DJTachyon | oh awesome |
| 21:31.56 | RyeBrye | T-mobile is a really cood carrier, in my experience - they don't sweat much stuff |
| 21:31.56 | DJTachyon | yeah TCPMP on windows mobile was amazing |
| 21:32.02 | DJTachyon | That would be really exciting |
| 21:32.33 | RyeBrye | And as far as normal GSM stuff goes - they have the exact same "bars" as AT&T does since you roam on their towers seemlessly and for free... (I know their 3G stuff isn't compatible - which is a shame :( ) |
| 21:33.01 | waldo_ | RyeBrye: agreed.. they are pretty great |
| 21:33.22 | waldo_ | RyeBrye: no one else unlocks phones for you after 60 days for example |
| 21:33.36 | RyeBrye | Speaking of which, I should get my G1 unlocked today :) |
| 21:33.40 | RyeBrye | Just to see if I can |
| 21:33.49 | DJTachyon | should have got a G1 from Walmart :P |
| 21:33.57 | RyeBrye | Do they have them in there now? |
| 21:34.03 | RyeBrye | the T-mobile retailers near me dont' have them in stock |
| 21:34.07 | DJTachyon | yeah $149 :P |
| 21:34.08 | RyeBrye | or don't stock them rather |
| 21:34.19 | *** join/#android satadru (n=satadru@gateway.ogroup.net) |
| 21:34.23 | RyeBrye | so if the walmart near me does, I'm going to be a little upset that I paid $179 and waited for them to send me one |
| 21:34.40 | DJTachyon | :) |
| 21:35.03 | waldo_ | oh it's $30... we're helping the economy :) |
| 21:35.16 | waldo_ | AND we're also gaining the pleasure of not shopping at Walmart |
| 21:35.27 | DJTachyon | indeed |
| 21:35.40 | waldo_ | which is easily worth $30 IMO |
| 21:35.51 | DJTachyon | at least it wasn't the orig iPhone thing of $600 vs $400 vs $200 |
| 21:35.52 | waldo_ | and we got it early |
| 21:37.11 | DJTachyon | hey ryebrye |
| 21:37.15 | RyeBrye | ? |
| 21:37.20 | DJTachyon | i just did a test with AAC audio .. that may be the problem |
| 21:37.31 | RyeBrye | oh, interesting. I'll look into that too |
| 21:37.34 | DJTachyon | my video lags hard with AAC |
| 21:39.16 | *** join/#android cbeust (n=cbeust@216.239.45.19) |
| 21:41.08 | *** join/#android shackan (n=frob@host141-80-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 21:41.42 | unix_lappy | DJTachyon: the difference is you can still find PLENTY of G1's, not so with the release of 1st generation iPhone. |
| 21:41.58 | DJTachyon | hmm? |
| 21:42.16 | DJTachyon | well I think the Apple Tax still had something to do with it |
| 21:42.26 | DJTachyon | hence the $200 rebate |
| 21:43.30 | tmccrary | unix_lappy: that's more truthful than you probably think |
| 21:44.04 | vol | I heard the 2nd gen iphones were shitty though |
| 21:45.27 | *** join/#android ralfz (n=ralf@nat/google/x-db8e554ff8d1ad4a) |
| 21:46.14 | DJTachyon | finally android source is building |
| 21:46.24 | DJTachyon | :) |
| 21:52.13 | DJTachyon | i love my computer .. build android on a VMWare Workstation instance of kubuntu while rendering video for the G1 :P |
| 21:52.25 | unix_lappy | tmccrary: ? |
| 21:52.41 | jasta | DJTachyon: you could've built it faster if you stopped the video and used make -j |
| 21:53.06 | DJTachyon | -j =? |
| 21:53.34 | DJTachyon | seeing as I gave the VM 2 cores .. I think I'm okay |
| 21:54.51 | unix_lappy | hmm, you "gave" the vm 2 cores? i'm pretty sure vmware workstation can only use one host core. so you're virtualizing the second. |
| 21:56.04 | DJTachyon | it let me select 1 or 2 cores |
| 21:56.04 | DJTachyon | i have a quad ... |
| 21:56.13 | unix_lappy | yea, that's fine. you're likely still only using 1/4. |
| 21:56.17 | jasta | DJTachyon: make -j is for parallelizing the build to take advantage of multiple cores. android's build system makes efficient use of it. |
| 21:56.32 | jasta | in a virtual environment tho, as unix_lappy points out, it probably won't do anything useful |
| 21:56.36 | DJTachyon | hmm interesting .. because two of my cores are going crazy and the other two are fairly tame |
| 21:56.49 | jasta | but if you were building on a native quad core machine, it would dramatically speed up the build |
| 21:56.54 | DJTachyon | i bet :P |
| 21:57.00 | DJTachyon | but im too lazy to dual boot |
| 21:57.22 | DJTachyon | ill remember the -j though .. could make things faster |
| 21:57.26 | jasta | well, if you were sensible you'd use a competent host os and windows as guest. not the other way around :) |
| 21:57.38 | DJTachyon | hehehe |
| 21:57.42 | unix_lappy | DJTachyon: vmware workstation can utilize multiple cores, the process that operates the VM only works on one, so its very possible that 2 cores are going crazy, but only one is being used for the VM. |
| 21:57.43 | DJTachyon | indeed sir |
| 21:57.47 | *** join/#android JoeBrain (n=JoeBrain@64-175-155-252.ded.pacbell.net) |
| 21:57.56 | DJTachyon | oh interesting okay .. |
| 21:58.11 | DJTachyon | well actually all 4 are spiking .. but two are definately more active |
| 21:58.11 | unix_lappy | jasta: heh, that's only viable on a desktop most of the time :-P |
| 21:58.45 | DJTachyon | maybe I shouldnt have been stingy and given it 2 of my 4 gigs instead of 1 |
| 22:00.06 | unix_lappy | wishes virtualbox would put out a roadmap citing that they will have threaded VM processes soon. |
| 22:00.24 | unix_lappy | so he could decide on core2duo vs core2quad. |
| 22:00.24 | spikebike | just uses xen |
| 22:00.49 | spikebike | you can dynamically change the number of CPUs in use in a domU |
| 22:01.45 | romainguy_ | make -j 10 == 10 minutes to do a clean build of Android from the git tree on a MacPro :) |
| 22:01.51 | *** join/#android jgib (n=jgibson@nat/google/x-18b44fe737185d96) |
| 22:02.40 | unix_lappy | romainguy_: you get a new unibody one? :-) |
| 22:06.07 | JoeBrain | Hows'it going guys |
| 22:06.18 | unix_lappy | howdy. |
| 22:07.00 | DJTachyon | hey ryebrye? |
| 22:07.23 | JoeBrain | I'm getting rumours of all these people selling unlocked G1s. These all imports from Euro? |
| 22:07.33 | DJTachyon | Try MPEG4/MP4 @ 256k and FLAC AAC @ 96k .. that seems to run okay |
| 22:07.40 | JoeBrain | And wouldn't the 3G not work w/ ATT SIM anyways? |
| 22:07.54 | *** join/#android Terdhex (n=fes004@host-208-68-238-61.biznesshosting.net) |
| 22:08.43 | DJTachyon_ | bbl |
| 22:09.26 | Terdhex | Hi all, I have a question, After compiling the source, how could I create android.jar??? |
| 22:09.36 | *** join/#android malcolm_ (n=malcom@151.65.89.80) |
| 22:10.08 | *** join/#android chab7 (n=kvirc@212.92.4.114) |
| 22:10.53 | *** join/#android kslater (n=kslater@dynamic-acs-24-154-255-72.zoominternet.net) |
| 22:11.02 | spikebike | joebrain correct, g1's 3g isn't going to work anywhere else |
| 22:11.43 | gdsx | spikebike: that's not really true |
| 22:12.00 | gdsx | spikebike: it won't work on AT&T's 3G network, but it does work on other, international 3G networks |
| 22:12.27 | gdsx | spikebike: the freqs that the handset supports are listed on HTC's website |
| 22:12.48 | jasta | Terdhex: android.jar is in...erm, hang on |
| 22:13.19 | waldo_ | has anyone here gotten an OS update ota and if so did it tell you or just show up? |
| 22:14.28 | *** join/#android romainguy__ (n=gfx@216.239.45.19) |
| 22:16.13 | jasta | Terdhex: the analogy in the source output is out/target/common/obj/JAVA_LIBRARIES/framework_intermediates/classes.jar |
| 22:16.29 | jasta | but do keep in mind that this is not the same as the one distrbuted with the SDK> |
| 22:16.42 | *** join/#android Dougie187 (n=doug@68.35.245.156) |
| 22:16.56 | jasta | that one is trimmed (contains only public classes) and has no code (every function throws a RuntimeException) |
| 22:17.12 | *** join/#android sisco (i=sisco@unaffiliated/sisco) |
| 22:18.04 | jasta | whereas the framework jar that the source produces is really just a compilation of frameworks/base/ |
| 22:18.51 | zhobbs | jasta: ahhh, so if we use that jar to develop we can access all the private apis |
| 22:20.04 | jasta | i dont think this file is interchangable with the SDK's android.jar for some weird reason |
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| 22:20.20 | jasta | as in, if you just replace android.jar with it, the Eclipse plugin seems to break |
| 22:20.27 | jasta | go ahead and try it tho, i really dont remember why it broke |
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| 22:21.15 | Terdhex | thanks, I was about to try... |
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| 22:21.35 | ironfroggy_ | im going to be very disappointed if i have to return my G1 :-( |
| 22:22.46 | Dougie187 | so wait... G1 on att? |
| 22:22.53 | Dougie187 | or is that just a hoax? |
| 22:23.28 | jasta | g1 will work just fine on at&t i'm sure, just no 3G |
| 22:23.38 | Dougie187 | whats this unlocking site? |
| 22:23.39 | Cedric2 | Jasta is right |
| 22:24.05 | jasta | and without 3G, it's a useless piece of junk :) |
| 22:24.14 | jasta | at least for my purposes hehe |
| 22:24.17 | Cedric2 | I used it on Edge for 1+ year, it's okay |
| 22:24.18 | ironfroggy_ | you need to unlock for at&t? the option is right there in the settings to connect to at&t if you've got a compatible sim card. |
| 22:24.27 | Cedric2 | hard to go back once you start getting used to 3G though |
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| 22:24.44 | sisco | [03:23:43PM] <jasta> g1 will work just fine on at&t i'm sure, just no 3G |
| 22:24.45 | Cedric2 | Gmail is fine on Edge, Maps is probably the one that's most impacted |
| 22:24.47 | jasta | Cedric2: yeah ive had 3G with AT&T for over a year now |
| 22:24.48 | Dougie187 | well, whats this? |
| 22:24.49 | Dougie187 | http://www.unlock-tmobileg1.com/EN/index.php |
| 22:24.49 | sisco | why? att has 3G :/ |
| 22:24.58 | Cedric2 | sisco: different bands |
| 22:25.01 | sisco | ya me too, i have 3G on my crappy att phone right now |
| 22:25.04 | ironfroggy_ | i cant seem to get maps to work. period. i dunno if the network is that incomplete around here or what. |
| 22:25.07 | zhobbs | Dougie187: I've used that...it works |
| 22:25.10 | jasta | sisco: because the hardware supports t-mobile's freq, and the more popular 2100 freq. not at&t's. |
| 22:25.21 | ironfroggy_ | i had to find my way home just now and it took the whole way and i still hadnt gotten directions pulled up. 20 minute drive. |
| 22:25.32 | ironfroggy_ | what sucks is i really did need those directions! |
| 22:26.48 | jasta | Cedric2: AT&T's network was better, i'm a little disappointed having switched to T-mobile |
| 22:26.56 | jasta | but it's not hopeless, t-mobile's network is OK for my needs |
| 22:27.14 | ironfroggy_ | then why did i see so many people wanted to get their iphones running on tmobile? |
| 22:27.16 | jasta | basically because i'm a snob and prefer not to leave the city |
| 22:27.19 | Cedric2 | Never used 3G on AT&T so I can't comment. 3G speed on TMobile was amazing in the first days of the roll out, but it was probably because nobody was on it yet |
| 22:27.26 | jasta | ironfroggy_: the original iphone did not even support 3G |
| 22:27.36 | ironfroggy_ | well, i didnt say original. |
| 22:27.53 | jasta | Cedric2: AT&T's speed is about the same, but its coverage and signal strength is substantially better |
| 22:28.00 | DJTachyon_ | god d@mnit |
| 22:28.11 | DJTachyon_ | my new G1 won't be here til next week unless they ship express |
| 22:28.28 | jasta | Cedric2: for instance, in my house in Seattle proper i have EDGE only, and even that signal is weak. |
| 22:28.38 | DJTachyon_ | my company's stupid address won't resolve because they are PO Box only and UPS wont ship to PO boxes |
| 22:28.44 | jasta | on T-Mobile, I mean. On AT&T, it was of course 3G and solid signal strength |
| 22:28.54 | ironfroggy_ | im going to have to call tmobile about my service here. tmobile only recently started service in this area, so i dont know what affect that has. |
| 22:29.17 | Cedric2 | TMobile only started rolling out 3G about a month ago, so it's really brand new |
| 22:29.27 | jasta | Cedric2: but again, it's fine for my needs. i never leave the city and so far my house is the only 3G deadzone i've encountered that i would have wanted |
| 22:29.39 | ironfroggy_ | how do i figure out if im even in edge or g3? |
| 22:29.49 | jasta | ironfroggy_: look at the G1 status bar, it tells you |
| 22:29.51 | ironfroggy_ | ugh, right now, neither. |
| 22:29.51 | Cedric2 | ironfroggy_: little icon in the status bar |
| 22:29.55 | ironfroggy_ | no service. |
| 22:29.58 | Cedric2 | it will say 3G or E |
| 22:29.58 | jasta | E means EDGE, G means GPRS, 3G means, erm, you can figure it out. |
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| 22:30.26 | Cedric2 | Yeah, just to be clear: "G" alone is not a good sign :) |
| 22:30.26 | ironfroggy_ | and if i have none of those? |
| 22:30.41 | fadden | 'X' means no signal |
| 22:30.48 | ironfroggy_ | i have bars, but no letters. |
| 22:30.48 | jasta | as a side note, i have noticed a lot of developers incorrectly use RelativeLayout to put right-hanging icons/text in list rows |
| 22:30.50 | fadden | WiFi looks like 4 horizontal lines |
| 22:30.56 | DJTachyon_ | oh looks like android built .. :) |
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| 22:30.58 | ironfroggy_ | i know the wifi is a different icon |
| 22:31.02 | Dougie187 | that sucks that it costs 29 bucks to order a code to unlock your g1. |
| 22:31.03 | zhobbs | jasta: what's wrong with that? |
| 22:31.04 | jasta | the text in the center when it gets long will touch the icon |
| 22:31.20 | jasta | zhobbs: if you dont do it properly, long text in the main area of the row will draw over the icon |
| 22:31.22 | DJTachyon_ | less than 45 min for a build |
| 22:31.24 | jasta | instead of wrapping |
| 22:31.27 | DJTachyon_ | not sure when it finished though |
| 22:31.32 | zhobbs | jasta: that's true |
| 22:31.38 | jasta | zhobbs: this is present in the application list hehe |
| 22:31.41 | jasta | and ConnectBot |
| 22:31.50 | jasta | and quite a few other apps i've played with |
| 22:32.00 | michaelnovakjr | not mine :) |
| 22:32.15 | DJTachyon_ | so now how to I test the build on the emulator? :P |
| 22:32.31 | jasta | DJTachyon_: google around, some dude gave instructions |
| 22:32.45 | ironfroggy_ | i dont get this. i can understand when the service goes between nothing and one measely bar, but mine jumps from none to 2 or 3. |
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| 22:33.36 | DJTachyon_ | iron: mountains? weather? copper piping in the walls? :P |
| 22:33.38 | DJTachyon_ | brb |
| 22:34.28 | ironfroggy_ | wheather has been decent. its been like this since i got it yesterday. im on flat land. |
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| 22:38.11 | ironfroggy_ | so my phone status says data services are disconnected.. |
| 22:38.25 | jasta | well, did you pay for them? :) |
| 22:38.26 | Cedric2 | Badly configured APN? |
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| 22:38.37 | ironfroggy_ | course i paid for it! |
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| 22:38.44 | jasta | ironfroggy_: t-mobile can help you with this, im sure |
| 22:38.47 | ironfroggy_ | you cant get the thing from tmobile without an unlimited data plan. |
| 22:38.48 | Cedric2 | ironfroggy_: you should take it up with TMobile |
| 22:38.49 | ironfroggy_ | im sure. |
| 22:38.52 | seva | have any apps been pulled from the market? i can't seem to find shareyourboard anymore |
| 22:38.53 | ironfroggy_ | im just saying. wtf. |
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| 22:40.08 | oinkboink | how to use variables in main.xml? and how to define them in the code? |
| 22:40.14 | ironfroggy_ | and it also says edge :-/ |
| 22:41.12 | jasta | seva: the developer might have removed it |
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| 22:41.26 | jasta | oinkboink: variables? huh? |
| 22:41.45 | jasta | if you want string literals, put them in values/strings.xml (for internationalization) |
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| 22:41.53 | jasta | if you want dynamic data bound to views, use code. |
| 22:42.13 | oinkboink | something like: android:background="variable" |
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| 22:43.03 | seva | jasonchen: thanks, i've emailed the dev |
| 22:43.07 | seva | er jasta: ^ |
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| 22:44.02 | jasta | oinkboink: that makes no sense to me. if you want to conditionalize the background, do so in code. |
| 22:44.13 | jasta | if you want to abstract the values, use values/strings.xml, values/colors.xml, etc. |
| 22:44.59 | jasta | see the ApiDemos, it covers a large spectrum of what the xml resource system in android can do |
| 22:45.54 | herriojr | wow, a lot of the permissions were changed for the filesystem as compared to the emulator |
| 22:46.01 | oinkboink | ok, thank you ... |
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| 22:48.58 | languish | .. |
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| 22:51.24 | michaelnovakjr | any device people wann test my app? |
| 22:52.46 | kslater | what's your app? |
| 22:53.01 | herriojr | yeah, depends on what it is |
| 22:53.10 | michaelnovakjr | Glance -- file manager... http://androidnerds.com/downloads/Glance.apk |
| 22:53.22 | michaelnovakjr | supports basic file operations |
| 22:53.35 | herriojr | oh, it's a file explorer? |
| 22:53.36 | ErikT | Same here, I got an app that need hardware testing. http://mobile.thauvin.net/android/ - It's a simple tip calculator. |
| 22:53.56 | michaelnovakjr | herriojr: yea, with file operations as well |
| 22:53.56 | marcone | I'm working on a kickass flashlight app |
| 22:54.09 | languish | michaelnovakjr, I'l; be happy to |
| 22:54.10 | kslater | lol |
| 22:54.22 | michaelnovakjr | thanks ^^ link above |
| 22:54.25 | herriojr | ok, give me about a day, I have stuff I'm working on for a deadline on Tuesday |
| 22:54.26 | languish | yep |
| 22:54.44 | herriojr | I'll give a list of errors and reports if I get any |
| 22:54.57 | michaelnovakjr | cool... i have a reporter... bugs.androidnerds.com |
| 22:54.57 | herriojr | email me at herriojr@gmail.com, so I can get back to you about it |
| 22:55.00 | *** part/#android duncanfoo (n=chatzill@stjhnf0131w-142162020167.pppoe-dynamic.nl.aliant.net) |
| 22:55.48 | languish | any f the googlers, if stadlero is near you, poke 'im and ask him if it was important? |
| 22:55.51 | languish | *of |
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| 22:56.59 | stadlero | poked |
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| 22:57.54 | ironfroggy_ | tmobile forgot to add the required data plan i paid for to my account. |
| 22:58.05 | Dougie187 | ironfroggy_: that has been a common theme |
| 22:58.15 | cbeust__ | ironfroggy_: glad you resolved it |
| 22:58.47 | ironfroggy_ | thats common? jeeze. |
| 22:58.58 | ironfroggy_ | so android cant run "regular" java ME stuff right? |
| 22:59.05 | cbeust__ | no |
| 22:59.09 | ironfroggy_ | interesting. |
| 22:59.32 | ironfroggy_ | just noticing that the maps app calls itself "Blackberry and Java ME versions" in the legalese |
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| 23:00.43 | languish | i read someone's working on a j2me emulator |
| 23:00.59 | languish | to run midlets on android |
| 23:01.02 | andyross | Heh, so we can run all those must-have J2ME applications? :) |
| 23:01.09 | languish | seemingly, lol |
| 23:01.10 | andyross | J2ME died. Let it rest. |
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| 23:01.32 | languish | hey, didn't you guys just release a gmail update for j2me :/ |
| 23:01.35 | waldo_ | wasn't there a doom4android demo a while ago? |
| 23:01.45 | languish | waldo_. i |
| 23:01.46 | languish | ' |
| 23:01.47 | languish | err |
| 23:01.47 | cbeust__ | It was Quake actually |
| 23:01.57 | languish | , i've seen ference to a quake port |
| 23:01.58 | languish | yeah |
| 23:02.19 | andyross | The glquake sources are available. I'm sure someone else could do another port. |
| 23:02.34 | ironfroggy_ | there is some emulator that opera mini used to port to android |
| 23:02.49 | ironfroggy_ | tho they havent updated it since then and it doesnt work on the current api, of course. |
| 23:04.40 | waldo_ | hmm.. funny there isn't a 1st person shooter on the market yet |
| 23:05.13 | herriojr | how do you reset the android eclipse logcat plugin if for some reason it stops displaying logs? |
| 23:05.22 | herriojr | without exiting eclipse |
| 23:05.26 | andyross | blames some of that on the quality of the OpenGL examples... |
| 23:05.49 | andyross | herriojr: Use "adb logcat" instead? :) |
| 23:07.09 | ErikT | So no takers on testing my little app? ;-) |
| 23:07.58 | languish | ErikT, I think there's a discernable disinterest in tip calculators after so many hitting the market lol |
| 23:08.12 | ErikT | That could be. ;-) |
| 23:08.31 | andyross | has an infant son at home, so isn't likely to be in a restaurant in the near future. |
| 23:08.44 | languish | I'll test it for you in a few |
| 23:09.00 | f00f- | too bad 802.1x EAP-TLS is not supported :/ |
| 23:09.19 | languish | though, i'm currently keeping BistroMath or whatever it's called, for those moments when I'm too slogged to do my own math |
| 23:09.49 | ErikT | Thanks, Languish. I didn't work on cbeust phone, but he's not using a production version. |
| 23:09.54 | languish | damn t-mobile, 3g's down *again* |
| 23:10.03 | marcone | I don't really see what a "tip calculator" offers over the regular calculator that's already included |
| 23:10.20 | fadden | marcone: regular calculators do regular calculations. |
| 23:10.24 | fadden | Tip calculators calculate tips. |
| 23:10.27 | fadden | QED |
| 23:10.47 | languish | marcone, when you're slogged, it's easier to just fill in the fields, so you don't forget to consider the tax rate of your locale among other things |
| 23:10.52 | ErikT | Well, I'd agree fadden, except it becomes a little complex when you need to exclude the tax from the tip calculation, etc. |
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| 23:10.58 | cbeust__ | Erik, to make your calculator competitive, you should add a flashlight to it |
| 23:11.09 | michaelnovakjr | haha |
| 23:11.10 | languish | cbeust_ haha |
| 23:11.22 | cbeust__ | and then it can be added to the Flashligh comparison |
| 23:11.23 | oinkboink | in main.xml i have the line: android:layout_width="@string/field_width" and in strings.xml the line: <dimen name="field_width">40px</dimen> ...but i get an error...no ressources found... |
| 23:11.31 | Disconnect | ErikT: it needs gps so it can go reverse-polish in poland |
| 23:12.11 | marcone | if you're so strapped for cash that you have to exclude the tax from the tip, then you probably can't afford a G1 to begin with... |
| 23:12.11 | Disconnect | is tempted to build a simple app that requests almost all the perms just to see how many people say yes.. |
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| 23:12.37 | cbeust__ | Hey, at $150 everyone can afford one! |
| 23:12.42 | cbeust__ | It's the Model T of phones |
| 23:12.48 | michaelnovakjr | haha |
| 23:12.57 | ErikT | marcone, why should you pay tip on taxes, taxes neither goes to the waiter or the restaurant.? |
| 23:13.00 | zhobbs | marcone: I was thinking the same thing |
| 23:13.02 | mocsrox | cbeust__: re walmart phone? |
| 23:13.09 | cbeust__ | yup |
| 23:13.27 | Disconnect | ...why are you tipping so low that w/ w/o taxes makes a difference? |
| 23:13.31 | mocsrox | word .. requires activation + 2yr contract but oh well |
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| 23:15.38 | marcone | ErikT: suppose you go out to dinner with your date, and spend $100. If you're in California, you'll end up paying an extra $8.50 or so in tax. Then you tip 20%, to further impress your date. If you tip on the tax, your total will be $130.20, otherwise it will be $128.5 |
| 23:15.55 | f00f- | you don't need a tip calculator if you don't tip. simple. |
| 23:15.58 | marcone | Does that $1.70 make that much of a difference? |
| 23:16.19 | fadden | Well, my date would be impressed an extra $1.70. |
| 23:16.39 | ErikT | My wife wouldn't. ;-) |
| 23:16.46 | marcone | exactly. So double the tax, round up, and throw in few extra $. Done. |
| 23:16.56 | andyross | Not sure I agree with the criticism there: clearly the point of the tool is to be correct, and the point of the tip is to reward the wait staff, not the state. So tipping without tax seems like proper, if pedantic, software behavior to me. |
| 23:17.22 | stadlero | double the tax only works here because 2x CA tax ~= standard tip |
| 23:17.32 | stadlero | tip calcs are more useful in other states |
| 23:17.39 | stadlero | also, most people suck at math |
| 23:17.52 | andyross | Seems like this discussion is an existence proof that all those tip calculators folks are laughing at are actually useful gadgets. :) |
| 23:17.53 | languish | michaelnovakjr, problem with downloading the app that I've encountered before. Every time, it's been an issue with the browser/webserver, not the .apk itself. T get the "warning" after it downloads, that installing will replace another application. |
| 23:18.14 | languish | I think it has to do with transferring as the wrong mime type |
| 23:18.17 | Disconnect | divide by 10, double. round up or down depending on service. or if its that bad, just divide by 10. |
| 23:18.39 | michaelnovakjr | i'll look into that languish thanks |
| 23:18.49 | f00f- | is it customary to tip if service is bad? |
| 23:19.09 | marcone | Disconnect: given that some people can't figure out how to exit ToddlerLock, maybe even such simple math is too much for the average user... :) |
| 23:19.17 | Disconnect | hahahaha |
| 23:19.18 | languish | michaelnovakjr, usually it's fixed by prepending "www." to the domain, but in this case that didn't work. (bug in the browser) it also occurs when a file's location is being redirected |
| 23:19.29 | Disconnect | maybe i need toddlerlock for giving demos |
| 23:19.45 | michaelnovakjr | ah ok |
| 23:20.26 | languish | f00f-, it depends on the place. but if service is bad, you say WHY you left a reduced or no tip. Keep in mind, if you have a watress and a buboy/girl, or anyone else helps you, they split the tip.. so if any one of them provides poor service.. try not to screw the others |
| 23:20.30 | ErikT | Tipping a percentage is flawed to start with. Say, I drink water, and get a few refills, the waiter will get no tip for that. Now, if I get beer, he gets a tip. Tip should be based on the actual 'work', not a percentage. But people do suck at math. |
| 23:20.53 | languish | ErikT, that's called common sense. |
| 23:20.59 | languish | which most people don't have |
| 23:21.02 | languish | :| |
| 23:24.13 | ErikT | Anyway, I was just looking at Bistromath, etc. Neither of them seem to over a way to input the amounts on the screen, you have to use the keyboard. That's kinda weird. |
| 23:24.36 | languish | heh |
| 23:25.20 | ErikT | That's something I never liked about the J2ME version I wrote many years ago, and why I decided to write one for android. |
| 23:25.22 | languish | erik, my version of bistromath has an on-screen calc |
| 23:25.32 | languish | err on screen number pad I should say |
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| 23:25.48 | ErikT | Nice, that must be new, I just watched a review of it, and it didn't have it. |
| 23:30.08 | ErikT | languish, I see it, I just install it on the emulator. |
| 23:30.17 | ErikT | Interesting interface. |
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| 23:39.51 | waldo_ | Quick poll- Has anyone here experienced strangeness like being logged in as someone else to a google service (or other cookie weirdness)?? |
| 23:40.26 | waldo_ | ...in the browser that is. |
| 23:40.54 | andyross | If you're actually logged in as someone else, that's a bug on the server end... |
| 23:41.08 | waldo_ | yes I was. |
| 23:41.22 | waldo_ | and T-Mobile just brushed me off big-time on their online chat-help. |
| 23:41.47 | andyross | Dunno. But a client can't magically synthesize authentication for someone else. Could be a proxy bug, maybe? |
| 23:41.49 | kingkung | hello |
| 23:41.52 | waldo_ | I logged into docs.google.com and was logged in as someone I've never heard of. I should have written it down, but I was at a restaurant and demoing google docs.... so didn't. |
| 23:41.59 | geist | oh wow |
| 23:42.03 | kingkung | i have a question |
| 23:42.04 | waldo_ | yeah no kidding wow! |
| 23:42.05 | Laz | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:42.05 | Laz | that would rock |
| 23:42.28 | waldo_ | I logged out and when I tried to log in it said my cookies needed to be turned on! I double-checked and sure enough it was on. |
| 23:42.43 | waldo_ | Finally after solving a captcha it let me log in as me... |
| 23:43.02 | waldo_ | I thought I remembered someone else somehwere online saying something similar had happened to them too. |
| 23:43.21 | waldo_ | But if this is common it's a major major configuration bug. I was on the g3 network incidentally |
| 23:43.29 | waldo_ | major security problem I mean. |
| 23:43.50 | geist | yeah, like it's tied to the ip address, or some proxy thin |
| 23:43.52 | ironfroggy_ | the g1 includes broken link bookmarks. thats kinda sad :-/ |
| 23:44.08 | andyross | Could be. Get a screenshot if it happens again. Which brings up a question: is there a screenshot application for the device? |
| 23:44.15 | waldo_ | that's a good question too |
| 23:44.43 | scootley | what does "adb ppp ..." do? the documentation on it is sparce |
| 23:44.44 | mickrobk | andyross: i think there's an option for that in ddms, but im not sure |
| 23:44.46 | waldo_ | well I'm putting it out there in case anyone else has a similar problem |
| 23:44.54 | *** join/#android Mephyst (i=mephisto@chello062178005017.2.11.vie.surfer.at) |
| 23:44.54 | waldo_ | scootley i think it's ppp over usb or something |
| 23:45.13 | *** join/#android Mephyst (i=mephisto@chello062178005017.2.11.vie.surfer.at) |
| 23:45.41 | waldo_ | wonder if it could be used for tethering... |
| 23:45.47 | scootley | ppp over usb is what the adb documentation says, but is the local machine the ppp server or client? |
| 23:46.10 | waldo_ | dunno |
| 23:47.09 | waldo_ | ah.. good ole 'ppp... |
| 23:53.09 | kingkung | hello |
| 23:53.11 | kingkung | i have a question |
| 23:57.23 | *** join/#android rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 23:57.26 | *** join/#android jaek (n=jaek@192.18.126.198) |
| 23:57.51 | jaek | i'm having trouble with the android mail app... it is failing authentication... and it seems because my password has a space in it |
| 23:57.54 | kingkung | how do i restore the alpha values of my png file when I store it into the content provider? |
| 23:58.46 | ironfroggy_ | coincidentally, i like the mobile gmail website better than the gmail app... |
| 23:59.02 | ironfroggy_ | might it be possible to actually get taken to the site instead of the app? |