| 00:03.18 | jasta | morrildl: what? |
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| 00:20.39 | laz | wow |
| 00:20.45 | jasta | what are you guys talking about? |
| 00:20.54 | laz | any developers in here? |
| 00:22.03 | laz | a robot |
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| 00:28.41 | jasta | laz: this channel is almost exclusively developers. |
| 00:28.46 | jasta | is full of* |
| 00:28.52 | jasta | so yes, there are developers in here. |
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| 00:41.08 | jasta | morrildl: that note about GtalkService is not too surprising. i had always thought that feature was perhaps poorly thought out |
| 00:51.15 | SanMehat | re: |
| 00:51.45 | laz | whats some good sites/books to learn how to program for android? |
| 00:52.25 | _avatar | laz: http://code.google.com/android/documentation.html |
| 00:57.51 | laz | i'm gonna create a p2p gnutella client |
| 01:00.16 | SanMehat | such a bad idea. |
| 01:00.20 | SanMehat | :) |
| 01:00.23 | laz | :( |
| 01:00.38 | SanMehat | kiss your battery life goodbye :( |
| 01:00.54 | laz | but you will have music heaven in android |
| 01:01.10 | SanMehat | yeah and a dead battery :) |
| 01:02.16 | npelly | laz: i recommend not taking android ideas from simonn :) |
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| 01:06.54 | laz | wouldnt the battery die just doing normal stuff like aim/browsing/listening to music.... |
| 01:06.55 | herriojr | I figured it out....communication problems :) |
| 01:07.41 | SanMehat | laz: yes, but not as quickliy. a p2p client would be sending and receiving data constantly; something which is a KILLER on the battery. |
| 01:08.08 | SanMehat | (because it costs power to transmit and receive data off the wire) |
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| 01:12.18 | laz | I want my dream now!!!! :( |
| 01:18.34 | jasta | laz: if you really want to implement something like that, do it with a server-assisted proxy component |
| 01:18.38 | jasta | such as your home computer |
| 01:18.55 | jasta | the peer-to-peer networks overhead is huge, whereas the overhead of the content delivery is at least well bound. |
| 01:19.46 | jasta | SanMehat: i'm so nervous to see how Five performs. lately ive' been moving through redesigning and optimizing ;) |
| 01:20.40 | jasta | but there's nothing i can to stave off the fact that it will be transmitting large amounts of data and doing audio decoding/playback (btw, i really hope i get a coprocessor in the first android phone *rin*) |
| 01:20.44 | jasta | grin* |
| 01:21.10 | jasta | still, i expect most usages of Five to be either with short duration, or wall power nearby. |
| 01:21.23 | jasta | like playing music in your home or car, or going for a jog... |
| 01:21.44 | jasta | also, i expect my users to buy bigger than 1GB storage cards :) |
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| 01:48.47 | jasta | morrildl: hey, pretty soon here i'm going to need to do unit testing on a service that requires callbacks to work (or at least, be testable). can you please look to see if there's something totally simple that i need to do to test this? |
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| 02:21.15 | muthu | morn |
| 02:29.02 | laz | night |
| 02:30.21 | muthu | m+15m |
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| 02:51.00 | umdk1d3 | mmm nice @ morrildl blog post, really helps clear up some things |
| 02:51.16 | umdk1d3 | yay for being more open about internal stuff :) |
| 02:51.31 | muthu | where's the link? |
| 02:51.33 | umdk1d3 | not sure if it was pasted in here yet http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/08/some-information-on-apis-removed-in.html |
| 02:51.39 | umdk1d3 | a few hours ago |
| 02:51.44 | muthu | thx |
| 02:53.05 | muthu | nice to get some updates |
| 03:14.07 | gambler | that is a good post. props to morrildl |
| 03:14.36 | gambler | but lets get that bluetooth API happening pls |
| 03:15.52 | muthu | xmpp would be great |
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| 03:28.36 | romainguy__ | it's just 1.0 |
| 03:28.42 | romainguy__ | these APIs will be added in a future release |
| 03:29.48 | laz | cant wait for October 13 |
| 03:38.52 | muthu | romainguy__: you work in python? |
| 03:39.42 | muthu | is it a good idea for an android developer to learn python? |
| 03:39.42 | romainguy__ | I used to |
| 03:39.54 | romainguy__ | it's a good idea to learn Python period |
| 03:39.58 | romainguy__ | it has nothing to do with Android |
| 03:40.03 | romainguy__ | but it's a good and useful language |
| 03:40.09 | muthu | gr8 |
| 03:40.32 | muthu | any python resources you can't live without? |
| 03:40.43 | romainguy__ | the official docs :) |
| 03:40.48 | romainguy__ | that's all I ever used |
| 03:40.49 | michaelnovakjr | haha |
| 03:40.53 | michaelnovakjr | :) |
| 03:40.57 | muthu | :) |
| 03:41.06 | muthu | that's all we need.. |
| 03:41.48 | muthu | why goog chose python? |
| 03:41.54 | muthu | instead of perl or php or ruby.. |
| 03:42.35 | michaelnovakjr | does it slow you down too much to add the le in there..... goog-le? |
| 03:42.40 | romainguy__ | Ruby wasn't popular/very documented |
| 03:42.52 | romainguy__ | and PHP is rarely used outside of web servers |
| 03:43.05 | muthu | michaelnovakjr_: yeah it terribly slooooooows me down :) |
| 03:43.21 | romainguy__ | and Python is a nice language :)) |
| 03:44.52 | muthu | python is better than ruby? |
| 03:45.01 | romainguy__ | to me they're the same |
| 03:45.06 | romainguy__ | I prefer Python's syntax though |
| 03:45.44 | muthu | yeah, looks cool |
| 03:47.06 | muthu | GAE is influencing me a lot |
| 03:47.36 | muthu | Android + GAE = rocks! |
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| 04:21.37 | trigatch4 | You all see the new post about GTalk Services and Bluetooth 2.0 API being left out? |
| 04:22.33 | muthu | yeah, nice post |
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| 04:25.54 | jasta | trigatch4: yeah, i kind of figured as much |
| 04:26.23 | jasta | it's funny to me that they needed their security team to realize that there were problems with allowing remote peers to arbitrarily invoke code on your device :) |
| 04:26.32 | gambler | the network operators are scared of the internets |
| 04:26.58 | trigatch4 | haha yeah |
| 04:27.06 | SanMehat | jasta: thats not actually what its doing |
| 04:27.13 | trigatch4 | but they mentioned that had they included the Bluetooth 2.0 API as is.. .they would be locked into that for years to come |
| 04:27.18 | jasta | SanMehat: that's part of what your official explanation said. |
| 04:27.28 | trigatch4 | and.. so... regardless if its a black eye on the process or not, i'm glad they didn't include it |
| 04:27.32 | jasta | SanMehat: however i was just being quippy. it's funny that you needed your security team to realize any part of why that wouldn't work :) |
| 04:27.57 | SanMehat | thats why they're there.. to catch stuff that us super-humans might miss when we're coding 36 hours a day |
| 04:28.15 | swetland | san: 36 hour days are not approved for external disclosure at this time. |
| 04:28.23 | SanMehat | swetland: oops sorry |
| 04:28.37 | swetland | nothing to see here folks, move along. |
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| 04:28.59 | jasta | not approved to disclose how you bend the laws of spacetime? :) |
| 04:29.14 | jasta | or about how google treats you like slaves? :) |
| 04:29.18 | SanMehat | swetlands my boss |
| 04:29.25 | umdk1d3 | halp =D |
| 04:29.31 | gambler | it just means the security model was scheduled for 'later'...quite understandable and sensible. |
| 04:30.04 | jasta | gambler: that is neither. security must always be considered throughout the design, never as an afterthought. |
| 04:30.12 | gambler | hahaha |
| 04:30.12 | jasta | the latter is Microsoft circa 1995. |
| 04:30.44 | swetland | security is subtle and having a specific team doing extra review is very worthwhile. I'm happy we've got 'em. |
| 04:31.14 | SanMehat | yeah, I for one am really glad we've got them to quadrouple-check the code |
| 04:31.14 | jasta | swetland: certainly, but the flaws in the gtalkservice as discussed in that post seem painfully obvious, not requiring some specialist to discover. |
| 04:31.24 | swetland | shrugs |
| 04:31.38 | SanMehat | jasta: you on a witch hunt or something? |
| 04:31.58 | jasta | no, it just tickled me is all. do you honestly not agree that those were obvious points? |
| 04:32.14 | SanMehat | honestly i've been so busy i hadn't thought of it |
| 04:32.18 | swetland | san: we are not confirming or denying the existence of witches on the team or support or non-support for witches in the APIs |
| 04:32.26 | SanMehat | because i've got a zillion other more important things to worry about. |
| 04:32.37 | jasta | SanMehat: well, i didn't attack you so don't take it so personally. |
| 04:32.46 | SanMehat | i'm not. |
| 04:32.56 | SanMehat | i'm cool like school |
| 04:33.00 | jasta | somebody somewhere wasn't thinking, and that made me chuckle. |
| 04:33.06 | SanMehat | it happens |
| 04:33.14 | muthu | cool like cuil |
| 04:33.25 | gambler | groan |
| 04:33.34 | SanMehat | haha |
| 04:33.39 | SanMehat | gambler: whats your game of choice? |
| 04:33.57 | muthu | jasta_: google treating them as slaves, come on! |
| 04:34.06 | jasta | SanMehat: on a side note, i do think it is kind of interesting how a lot of the android engineers don't get the opportunity to see the platform like we do. |
| 04:35.04 | gambler | SanMehat, ill bet on which raindrop falls down a window faster, but I spent a few years losing money playing internet poker and options trading |
| 04:35.24 | SanMehat | gambler: options trading is too complicated for my simple mind |
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| 04:35.36 | SanMehat | so is poker, but i play it anyways |
| 04:35.50 | gambler | SanMehat, stakes? |
| 04:35.59 | muthu | i like 5c slot machines.. hehe |
| 04:37.18 | muthu | they were showing lasvegas highrollers the other day, amazing how much these folks spend gambling |
| 04:41.26 | jasta | SanMehat: *poke*, privmsg |
| 04:51.24 | jasta | lame, my new aidl is 400 lines long. now i have to implement this beast ;) |
| 04:51.27 | muthu | shit, tuesdays are so boring |
| 04:51.32 | jasta | there are 4 types of listeners too, *yargh* :) |
| 04:52.14 | muthu | 400 lines.. how many methods? |
| 04:53.54 | jasta | i don't know, a lot :) |
| 04:54.12 | jasta | lots of comments though, too :P |
| 05:04.01 | SanMehat | gambler: $1/2 for fun... $5/10 in vegas |
| 05:10.13 | trigatch4 | tuesdays are the best days |
| 05:10.31 | muthu | for what? |
| 05:11.08 | muthu | its not the beginning, not the middle and not the end.. hehe |
| 05:19.10 | trigatch4 | the best for business |
| 05:19.30 | trigatch4 | mondays people are getting re-acquainted from the weekend |
| 05:19.44 | muthu | fridays are the best for business |
| 05:19.48 | trigatch4 | tuesday they are concentrated and refreshed and online |
| 05:19.55 | trigatch4 | depends what business |
| 05:20.09 | trigatch4 | not for online business |
| 05:20.15 | muthu | right |
| 05:28.30 | jasta | yakischloba: how was your first day? :) |
| 05:29.46 | yakischloba | jasta: the guy that was supposed to train me went home sick before I got there. I spent about 3 hours being taught some basic stuff and the next 5 figuring some stuff out on my own, wandering around the data center looking at stuff, trying not to fall asleep |
| 05:30.33 | jasta | seem like it's gonna be a good gig though? |
| 05:30.43 | yakischloba | yeah it'll be exciting once I get rolling |
| 05:30.49 | jasta | coo |
| 05:31.20 | yakischloba | I can see by browsing through the ticket system that the level I was hired for will be a breeze |
| 05:31.22 | jasta | gah i really wish i could figure out what was wrong with ServiceTestCase :( |
| 05:31.32 | yakischloba | hopefully move up pretty fast |
| 05:31.50 | jasta | yakischloba: excellent, just gotta show the right attitude and it should be easy |
| 05:32.01 | yakischloba | mmhmm |
| 05:33.28 | yakischloba | thrilling to have a zillion dollars of fiber networking stuff blowing hot air in my face |
| 05:33.38 | jasta | lol |
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| 06:09.59 | trigatch4 | jasta: i'm pretty sure you can find your answer to ServiceTestCase by asking on AndroidForums.com |
| 06:10.07 | trigatch4 | ;) i kid, i kid... |
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| 06:31.20 | f00f- | . |
| 06:31.48 | muthu | .. |
| 06:31.56 | romainguy | yo |
| 06:32.11 | f00f- | how goes it folks |
| 06:33.04 | romainguy | pretty well |
| 06:33.44 | f00f- | good good |
| 06:34.06 | jasta | romainguy: do you think you could do me a favor? *grin* |
| 06:34.15 | romainguy | depends |
| 06:34.26 | f00f- | "READ THE ISSUE TRACKER!" :) |
| 06:34.49 | jasta | i ran into a small problem using ServiceTestCase where it seems callbacks are not supported. I doubt this is really true, i'm just failing to set up some part of my test environment correctly |
| 06:34.55 | romainguy | f00f-: haven't you noticed the recent activity? :) |
| 06:35.10 | f00f- | :P |
| 06:35.11 | jasta | Do you know of any tests in Android's framework that use this (callbacks)? Could you peek into one and figure out if there's some trick? |
| 06:35.31 | romainguy | no I don't know of any test that does that |
| 06:35.45 | romainguy | and I have absolutely no will to look into this right now |
| 06:36.53 | muthu | i think monkey is a lot useful than instrumentation |
| 06:37.10 | romainguy | muthu: there are both useful in different ways |
| 06:37.27 | muthu | yeah, but you get monkey for free ;) |
| 06:37.30 | jasta | romainguy: ok, fair enough. |
| 06:37.47 | romainguy | but I don't see why callbacks would not be supported |
| 06:37.53 | romainguy | an instrumented activity is just an activity |
| 06:38.23 | jasta | romainguy: me neither, but i can't see that i am doing anything "weird". except, i am blocking the test thread. but i don't think that should have anything to do with it. |
| 06:44.40 | jasta | romainguy: i dunno, i posted to the groups so hopefully someone responds |
| 06:44.51 | romainguy | that's what they're for |
| 06:45.27 | jasta | i half expect i'm going to get a "don't use undocumented systems" response, though |
| 06:45.49 | muthu | its 2 different process |
| 06:45.56 | muthu | so callbacks might not work |
| 06:46.18 | jasta | muthu: what do you mean? |
| 06:46.27 | jasta | what does it being 2 processes have to do with anything? |
| 06:46.58 | muthu | may b threading issues? |
| 06:47.12 | jasta | i doubt very much that it is simply broken |
| 06:48.00 | jasta | if the test environment doesn't match the real environment sufficient enough to make recursive binder calls work, then it's not worth very much IMO. |
| 06:50.37 | muthu | i dropped instrumentation coz at this stage its a waste of time |
| 06:51.20 | jasta | i don't have a clue what you're talking about |
| 06:53.02 | muthu | haha |
| 06:53.07 | muthu | that doesn't surprise me ;) |
| 06:54.33 | jasta | me either. i don't know why you would think instrumentation is a waste of time just before handset launch. |
| 06:54.43 | jasta | QA is the most important thing you could be doing right now |
| 06:55.12 | muthu | without any documentation? |
| 06:55.36 | romainguy | there's really not much to instrumentation |
| 06:56.10 | jasta | romainguy: right, but it really doesn't work in my case. there must be some special trick that you have to do to get recursive binder transactions working |
| 06:56.31 | jasta | i imagine most of Android is tested with this stuff, right? tons of code must be using it internally |
| 06:56.49 | romainguy | probably |
| 06:56.54 | muthu | don't think so |
| 06:56.58 | romainguy | we definitely use it for the UI framework |
| 07:01.11 | anno^da | gm guys |
| 07:01.15 | jasta | morning |
| 07:01.36 | jasta | romainguy: i get the sense that i am doing a lot of esoteric things with Android in my designs for some reason :) |
| 07:01.38 | anno^da | So I'm leaving for breakfast now. :) |
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| 07:16.35 | muthu | anno^da: what's for breakfast |
| 07:16.39 | muthu | ? |
| 07:26.09 | muthu | in chennai, idly sambar is the standard breakfast |
| 07:35.50 | jasta | it would sure be nice if you could get aidl to generate you a RemoteCallbackList stub for callback interfaces ;0 |
| 07:35.56 | jasta | writing these sucks so much :) |
| 07:37.34 | trigatch4 | more pictures of htc dream leaked |
| 07:38.13 | trigatch4 | http://androidguys.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/g1_official_image.png |
| 07:38.17 | trigatch4 | for anyone interested |
| 07:39.52 | jasta | so that little tilt at the bottom is real? i always wondered why that was there |
| 07:40.01 | jasta | it's going to make it fit in people's pockets funny |
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| 07:58.16 | anno^da | muthu: now I'm back |
| 07:58.56 | anno^da | I had bread with cheese and marmelade and some ham. |
| 07:59.07 | anno^da | and fresh apples from the garden |
| 07:59.26 | anno^da | and a big glass of apple juice |
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| 08:15.32 | Zohan | ugly device |
| 08:15.43 | Zohan | i wont buy the first one then |
| 08:16.15 | cutmasta | Zohan, :) |
| 08:19.14 | jasta | i'm not too sure what i feel about this, actually |
| 08:19.34 | jasta | this doesn't seem like it's gonna win any hardware design awards :( |
| 08:19.49 | cutmasta | jasta, you talk about the dream? |
| 08:19.55 | cutmasta | are there new pics out ? |
| 08:19.59 | jasta | i guess i'll have to wait and see how it feels in the hand and all that, but it looks kind of like recycled HTC crap |
| 08:20.08 | cutmasta | or are you just imagine how it will look like |
| 08:20.12 | _avatar | cutmasta: < trigatch4> http://androidguys.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/g1_official_image.png |
| 08:20.19 | jasta | HTC makes some good phones, but they've also got plenty of really generic ones. this sorta seems like one of those more than their really fancy ones |
| 08:20.51 | cutmasta | jasonchen, the diamond pro is nice deisgn |
| 08:20.53 | cutmasta | jasta |
| 08:20.56 | cutmasta | :) |
| 08:20.58 | jasta | right, exactly |
| 08:21.02 | cutmasta | fuck autocomplete |
| 08:21.05 | cutmasta | sorry |
| 08:21.06 | cutmasta | :) |
| 08:21.14 | _avatar | i really don't have a problem with the way it looks. that being said, it doesn't appear to be the most attractive device out there |
| 08:21.44 | jasta | _avatar: http://www.htc.com/www/product.aspx?id=49518 -- the same company made this. |
| 08:22.05 | _avatar | personally, because I'm a cheapskate, I'd rather buy a functional, slightly ugly phone, than something twice as expensive that does the same thing but looks better. |
| 08:22.12 | jasta | and that device seems much more attractive. perhaps the face plate will get some love, though |
| 08:22.17 | _avatar | so as long as the handset is decently priced i'm sold, i think |
| 08:22.17 | cutmasta | _avatar, you are right |
| 08:22.30 | cutmasta | but in my opinion they should sell a competitor to iphone |
| 08:22.38 | cutmasta | regarding functionality AND design |
| 08:22.48 | jasta | _avatar: yeah but a phone with wi-fi, gps, huge touchscreen, slide-out keyboard, etc is _NOT_ going to be cheap. |
| 08:23.02 | muthu | gps not certain |
| 08:23.08 | jasta | oh and throw in a 3D accelerator chip in there. |
| 08:23.09 | _avatar | jasta: true, but a sexier phone will be more expensive |
| 08:23.23 | muthu | i'll go for a reasonably priced phone |
| 08:23.35 | jasta | muthu: for real? are we also speculating as to whether it will have a cellular radio? |
| 08:24.16 | jasta | why on earth would there be no GPS? last i checked google's "my location" was still terribly inaccurate. |
| 08:24.41 | muthu | donno, might be some device constraints |
| 08:24.59 | _avatar | seems like it'd be silly not to have a GPS given the tight maps integration |
| 08:25.11 | jasta | yeah, what a clusterfuck that would be to not include GPS |
| 08:25.13 | romainguy | stop speculating guys, just wait for the devices and you'll see what's inside |
| 08:25.22 | _avatar | :) |
| 08:25.35 | romainguy | (on the other hand it's fun watching you speculate :) |
| 08:25.39 | cutmasta | lol |
| 08:25.42 | _avatar | i'm sure it is |
| 08:25.43 | muthu | haha |
| 08:25.55 | muthu | this channel would die, if we don't speculate ;) |
| 08:26.05 | muthu | jasta would have nothing to do.. hehe |
| 08:26.19 | romainguy | muthu: oh he would |
| 08:26.28 | duey^ | I already know whats in the devices |
| 08:26.30 | jasta | i could get back to coding, of course. |
| 08:26.31 | Zohan | the diamond pro is too thick imo |
| 08:26.37 | Zohan | the diamond touch is nice |
| 08:26.45 | duey^ | its an iphone running android |
| 08:26.46 | duey^ | obviously |
| 08:26.53 | jasta | hehe. |
| 08:26.59 | cutmasta | this would be really cool |
| 08:27.06 | cutmasta | publish an installer for iphone |
| 08:27.19 | cutmasta | that would kick ass ;) |
| 08:27.23 | cutmasta | nice device |
| 08:27.24 | muthu | that would really kick SJ ass :) |
| 08:27.30 | cutmasta | with extremly nice OS |
| 08:27.30 | Zohan | call it "the iphone youve been waiting for" :) |
| 08:27.40 | duey^ | dont think I would want to run android on an iphone.. |
| 08:28.06 | cutmasta | hm, in my opinion the iphone weighs to much |
| 08:28.28 | cutmasta | design is nice |
| 08:28.33 | cutmasta | big filespace |
| 08:28.40 | cutmasta | but |
| 08:28.40 | muthu | android on iphone would be a nice |
| 08:28.48 | cutmasta | the battery runs out fast |
| 08:28.53 | cutmasta | if you really USE it |
| 08:28.57 | jasta | has anyone hacked linux onto an iphone currently? |
| 08:29.36 | jasta | if they have, and the driver status is good, then it would probably be trivial to load Android on there. |
| 08:30.18 | jasta | but i doubt very much that anyone has done that. |
| 08:30.22 | jasta | and i bet the work involved would be staggering |
| 08:30.32 | muthu | yeah, not even rumors around |
| 08:30.36 | Zohan | theyre running some version of bsd |
| 08:30.56 | jasta | muthu: "rumors"? do you find a lot of open source hackers that don't publish their findings? |
| 08:31.27 | jasta | Zohan: Loading a form of BSD onto the iPhone is a much less impressive feat, since the iPhone alraedy runs a form of BSD. |
| 08:31.55 | Zohan | thats what i meant, the osx base is some bsd version |
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| 08:32.17 | jasta | that doesn't translate at all to loading Linux onto the device with good driver support. |
| 08:32.22 | Zohan | btw, i dont publish my findings |
| 08:32.25 | jasta | all the iphone drivers are assuredly closed source. |
| 08:33.20 | jasta | the iphone is probably nightmarishly properietary too. probably no other phones with even similar hardware except maybe the baseboard/cpu. |
| 08:33.48 | jasta | and with it also being the only hardware to run OS X, there are probably no tools to explore the hardware exisitng |
| 08:34.09 | jasta | the task would be incredibly huge for anyone to take on. it's just not happening... |
| 08:34.18 | Zohan | and noone should support apple by buying an iphone and putting a good OS on it! |
| 08:35.24 | muthu | especially given the outrageous iphone pricing |
| 08:35.45 | jasta | the iPhone is just simply not an attractive target for tinkering |
| 08:36.02 | Zohan | the chiphone is |
| 08:36.05 | jasta | you guys seem to think this sort of stuff is magic just because you're used to someone doing all the real work for you. |
| 08:36.24 | tric | hmm, any idea how to resolve the path/filename of a raw resource? |
| 08:38.58 | swetland | embedded systems are embedded systems |
| 08:39.05 | romainguy | yo swetland |
| 08:39.09 | swetland | they're not particularly magical |
| 08:39.29 | swetland | though sometimes it's a pita to get actual databooks from the silicon vendors |
| 08:39.36 | swetland | 'evening |
| 08:39.54 | romainguy | swetland: you're good at yelling at them ;-) |
| 08:40.08 | jasta | yelling at who? us? |
| 08:40.13 | swetland | romainguy: I mean for joe random third party hacker |
| 08:40.20 | romainguy | jasta: no, sillicon vendors |
| 08:40.25 | romainguy | swetland: ah yes :) |
| 08:40.27 | jasta | oh, of course. |
| 08:41.14 | swetland | the hard part is all in the last 5% though. saving 0.1mA here and there, finding the flaky stability issues in the hardware or the modem or whatever |
| 08:41.38 | romainguy | swetland: and then see these @!# framework devs ruin all of your efforts with fancy features :)) |
| 08:41.49 | swetland | but watch those guys who are getting android (and other mobile linux stuff) fired up on a bunch of existing handsets with no docs |
| 08:42.05 | jasta | swetland: /me was contributing to that effort on the Vogue... |
| 08:42.08 | swetland | determination and an insane amount of free time goes a long way ^^ |
| 08:42.18 | jasta | and actually, you're missing something about those folks... |
| 08:42.28 | jasta | they were all using HaRET, an existing tool which basically is doing all the work for them |
| 08:42.39 | swetland | it's not quite all that simple |
| 08:42.55 | jasta | then just trying to guess at the differences between the code *you*'ve been writing and what is appropriate for the other hardware :) |
| 08:42.55 | swetland | though having existing tools to help reverse engineering is a plus |
| 08:43.14 | Zohan | where did you change voltages? |
| 08:43.19 | swetland | jasta: and disassembling the wince stuff and picking it apart, etc, etc |
| 08:43.57 | jasta | swetland: HaRET can actually do most of the work on certain devices. |
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| 08:44.45 | swetland | not sure what you mean by "the work". I am reminded of people requesting a device driver wizard for beos where you "just punch in the irqs and addresses and it writes the driver for you" ^^ |
| 08:45.36 | swetland | it looks like haret is damn handy for sorting out gpio assignments and so on, which is certainly nice |
| 08:45.36 | jasta | swetland: it was basically that easy. i know you have no free time to look, but look at the diff for the vogue against your tree ;) |
| 08:46.04 | swetland | yes, 90% of the diffs are a bitmap for the onscreen keyboard |
| 08:46.18 | jasta | well that's not what i meant :) |
| 08:46.29 | jasta | i just meant that much of it is a copy/paste job on your code, modifying the small details that are necessary. |
| 08:46.32 | swetland | but the work picking apart the quite different shared memory interface and getting the at/ppp channel up was unlikely to be magically done by haret |
| 08:46.34 | jasta | most of those details were discovered from HaRET |
| 08:46.38 | jasta | i talked to dzo quite a bit about this ;) |
| 08:47.02 | jasta | oh yes, that piece was damn impressive. i have no clue how he made that work. |
| 08:47.11 | swetland | I do. |
| 08:47.16 | swetland | it remains impressive though ^^ |
| 08:47.23 | Zohan | im on jasta's side with this, without knowing both codes |
| 08:47.34 | jasta | my "side"? |
| 08:48.07 | Zohan | the copy n paste wasnt much work side |
| 08:49.41 | swetland | driver work is all about the details. and sorting out those details in absence of actual docs or reference code can be quite time consuming, even if you do have good tools to help. don't make the mistake of thinking just because there's not a lot of code, it's trivial |
| 08:50.03 | jasta | swetland: i didn't make that mistake. i am telling you, i discussed this with him :) |
| 08:50.35 | jasta | but regardless, it was still really incredible and that is with good tools. porting something like the iPhone is dizzying. you're starting totally from scratch there. |
| 08:50.47 | jasta | by the time you succeeded to get a stable, working stack, the iphone would be old news :) |
| 08:50.56 | swetland | yet people do stuff like that |
| 08:51.23 | jasta | sure, but generally the more interesting hobbyist projects come from more attractive targets than the iphone |
| 08:51.43 | jasta | or maybe not interesting, but usable :) |
| 08:52.05 | swetland | it's an arm core with flash, ram, standard embedded peripherals, a radio module |
| 08:52.20 | zoolooc | hi there |
| 08:52.29 | swetland | not much different than many other devices people pick apart ^^ |
| 08:52.56 | zoolooc | at least the iphone has no SD card slot, like the kaiser, where the hackers are struggling with driver issues |
| 08:53.14 | swetland | I always was amazed at the desire to use SD |
| 08:53.23 | swetland | the nand driver was one of the first things we published |
| 08:53.30 | swetland | that sdcc is just plain evil |
| 08:54.02 | jasta | jeez, i really have to go to bed |
| 08:54.08 | jasta | this is ridiculous being up at 2am |
| 08:55.13 | Zohan | come on over here, 11 am here :) |
| 08:55.35 | jasta | i am finally to a place where i have to implement that stupid local HTTP server work-around and i'm just dreading it |
| 08:55.38 | jasta | so i'm not even coding anymore |
| 08:57.03 | jasta | anyway, night folks |
| 08:57.48 | Zohan | gn8 |
| 09:00.56 | zoolooc | swetland: so you're saying the nand driver would be usable for the kaiser as well, even right now? well, and if it is, actually making use of it wouldn't that imply flashing some experimental linux (w/wo android on top) to the rom? but what if it goes wrong? what a bout the bootloader? is there a way back? whereas "playing" with haret booting from SD seems reversible... |
| 09:02.35 | swetland | not writing to the onboard flash is certainly lower risk |
| 09:02.54 | swetland | but I have to say if we had to get sd working first it would have delayed us impressively ^^ |
| 09:03.38 | romainguy__ | swetland: I should use the same excuse for ListView bugs :p |
| 09:03.48 | swetland | you blame San? |
| 09:03.59 | romainguy__ | no |
| 09:04.00 | swetland | does he know? |
| 09:04.04 | romainguy__ | I blame myself |
| 09:04.17 | romainguy__ | (we nailed another one today) |
| 09:04.26 | swetland | "I don't fear diseases, ListView will kill me first." -- Romain |
| 09:04.30 | romainguy__ | lol |
| 09:04.51 | swetland | I feel the same way about the AMSS shared memory interface |
| 09:04.59 | romainguy__ | just the name makes me crap my pants |
| 09:05.05 | swetland | at least we don't have a floppy controller |
| 09:05.09 | swetland | thank the gods |
| 09:05.55 | swetland | though the usb client controller was pretty hateful in its own special ways |
| 09:06.06 | romainguy | well, you used the word USB |
| 09:06.13 | romainguy | so I was kinda expecting hatred to be involved |
| 09:07.03 | zoolooc | lol, :) just because a floppy drive would buckle the pocket more than the phone itself |
| 09:08.05 | swetland | z: at Be, ownership of the floppy driver (which was incredibly hateful) was considered a dire punishment |
| 09:11.02 | jasta_ | why on earth did i install an irc client on my phone |
| 09:11.08 | jasta_ | :) |
| 09:14.12 | cutmasta | because its great? |
| 09:14.14 | cutmasta | :) |
| 09:16.53 | jasta_ | no, not true :) |
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| 09:20.33 | anno^da | :-) |
| 09:20.48 | anno^da | you have to go to sleep :) |
| 09:20.54 | anno^da | jasta |
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| 09:42.09 | anno^da | romainguy: you there |
| 09:42.52 | anno^da | I know that you like your mac, have you tested that: http://www.foozoodesign.com/lockdown.html . Pretty funny (ok it is somehow senseless but just a fun app) |
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| 11:57.26 | tric | nice, finally found a way to "deploy" my nativ lib with the .apk, and prolly gonna be killed for that by any android dev ;) |
| 12:03.58 | buster`_ | tric: who? you can install native libs with .apk? |
| 12:07.01 | tric | well. "install", i put them in as raw resource, and on start before loading i check for filename, if its not found i use the resource inputstream and write them to the fs. but of course not in /system/lib, cause ro mount and root permissions, but /data/anr is world writable and System.load(fullpath) can load this lib |
| 12:07.44 | tric | works only with a single jni lib, so you have to link all your jni libs into one static. else the linker wont find the dependencies |
| 12:08.24 | tric | buster: but thats of course a hack. prolly wont work with next sdk, and for sure not with a real device (which isnt hacked) |
| 12:08.56 | tric | but for testing this is nice, finally no need to push before running the service after emu start. |
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| 12:15.55 | tric | .o(i guess i should have told this, i bet next sdk release System.load is removed) |
| 12:18.12 | anno^da | in the next it is open ;) |
| 12:19.26 | tric | but not in 1.0 or on real devices. |
| 12:21.19 | anno^da | thats true :) |
| 12:22.02 | swetland | fun fact: the android security model does not depend on the vm for security |
| 12:22.29 | Zohan | some parts do |
| 12:22.33 | tric | true, it depends alot on the kernel. |
| 12:22.47 | tric | zohan: which parts do? |
| 12:23.08 | anno^da | Oh after looking at the pictures of the G1 I hate the logo placement. I'd like to have a device without the logos. Even without the ugly T-Mobile one. |
| 12:23.09 | swetland | no, the security design of the system is around one-uid-per-app and kernel enforced process boundaries |
| 12:23.22 | tric | you can of course crash your app very easily via jni, but only your app gets killed, i tried that alot ;) |
| 12:24.11 | Zohan | whats the permission good for, then? |
| 12:24.52 | swetland | the system servers can map the uids of calling apps to their package info and use that to enforce whatever |
| 12:25.27 | swetland | direct hardware / filesystem access is generally granted by setting additional groups when the app process is launched (for permissions that map to direct driver access, etc) |
| 12:25.33 | tric | zohan: ok, true. those INTERNET permissions are good for nothing. but you could add a JNI permission ;) |
| 12:25.54 | swetland | tric: actually those internet permissions are pretty important |
| 12:26.30 | tric | swetland: well, but you can (currently) use jni to access the net i guess. |
| 12:26.36 | Zohan | well, a programm could use a internet and jni permission then. and then read the position via native access on the gsm/gps modul |
| 12:27.02 | Zohan | there are around 2000 native methods. i guess you can do nearly everything native |
| 12:27.05 | swetland | tric: I think the emulator kernel may not currently be build with CONFIG_PARANOID_NETWORK |
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| 12:27.18 | swetland | http://git.android.com/?p=kernel.git;a=blob;f=net/ipv4/af_inet.c;h=97e4f081abdd045ea6b65cb1a4040741c3f34ff2;hb=a9b254e2f99fa52d2f2841a27d1eddef12bdac2c |
| 12:28.10 | tric | ah, interesting, so those permissions are handed over to the kernel aswell. |
| 12:28.26 | tric | so enable jni support! ;) |
| 12:28.49 | swetland | the process start from zygote arranges to put the app in the appropriate additional groups. the kernel merely enforces access with them |
| 12:29.01 | Zohan | drop C code, execute it, exploit some app to gain root privs and install rootkit :) |
| 12:29.24 | swetland | there is a reason very few things run as root |
| 12:29.26 | tric | zohan: some app, thats the problem, there are only very few ;) |
| 12:30.40 | Zohan | you can do it if you really want |
| 12:30.44 | Zohan | but you must try, try and try |
| 12:31.16 | tric | you dont have to try and try, you have to read alot when the source code is open ;) |
| 12:32.06 | Zohan | thats what some people get paid for |
| 12:32.17 | swetland | I'm sure even without that people would happily pick through the binaries to look for fun stuff |
| 12:32.21 | Zohan | reading source code, finding exploitable areas |
| 12:33.16 | swetland | in any case, the point is system security is not designed around the VM being the last line of defense (or even that it be reliable at all, though the vm guys work hard to make it so) |
| 12:34.10 | swetland | native code support is more an issue of ABI/API support -- which was a bit out of scope for 1.0, but obviously something we're thinking about |
| 12:34.36 | Zohan | native code support is a must |
| 12:34.46 | Zohan | or else someone will jailbrake the gphone :p |
| 12:34.47 | tric | well, for my use, only deployment needs to be solved. some local lib path for every .apk. |
| 12:35.01 | buster`_ | Zohan: you dont need to jailbreak an open platform |
| 12:35.32 | swetland | I'm sure if it's not supported people will devote considerable energy to working around that. |
| 12:35.33 | tric | buster: the platform is open. maybe the phones are not! |
| 12:35.34 | Zohan | if youre bound to a VM |
| 12:36.08 | tric | swetland: yeah, i found a way in 0.9_r1, only a writable directory is needed. |
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| 12:37.07 | swetland | the main thing to keep in mind is that it is not supported, and there are no guarantees that even if you do whatever and run native code that that native code will work the same on different android devices, future versions of the platform, etc |
| 12:37.15 | Zohan | tric the way you "found" is new File(); ? :D |
| 12:38.02 | Zohan | people running native code tend to know this swetland. they arent stupid |
| 12:38.30 | swetland | I don't recall saying they were ^^ |
| 12:39.29 | tric | zohan: with input to fileoutputstream, yes. and i never treid System.load before, always used System.loadLibrary |
| 12:40.31 | tric | swetland: yes, there is an issues with different platforms of course. you need to deploys many binaries for every architecture. that sucks. |
| 12:40.54 | Zohan | most of them will be ARM7/9 anyway |
| 12:42.27 | tric | maybe for the start |
| 12:42.31 | swetland | or A11, or Cortex, and A9 may be v4 or v5, etc, etc |
| 12:42.42 | Zohan | arm7/9 or x86 |
| 12:43.05 | swetland | the main issue is the underlying native code that supports the java frameworks is not a stable api, and I suspect there will be strong temptation to directly call native libraries from native jni code and that's where the real rats nest begins |
| 12:43.10 | tric | the nice thing about dalvik is, you need only one version of your .apk, at least as i understood it until now |
| 12:43.59 | swetland | it'd be nice to provide a reasonable base C API for native extensions to use (say minimally libc+libm, maybe some additional useful glue) |
| 12:44.18 | tric | hmm, ok, thats not an issue for me, i only call my own lib and some simple libc stuff. and __android_log_print of course ;) |
| 12:44.47 | Zohan | so do i |
| 12:44.57 | swetland | but the focus for 1.0 is the java language toolkits. native code and bindings for other runtimes did not make 1.0 as we did have this desire to ship |
| 12:45.00 | tric | would have been nice to know about __android_log_print in the beginning. would have saved alot of time |
| 12:45.55 | tric | swetland: can you comment about if jni will be enabled or disabled in 1.0? no matter its supported or not? |
| 12:45.55 | swetland | but these are obviously interesting things for the platform and life doesn't stop at 1.0 |
| 12:46.28 | laz | why couldnt they make it like the touch pro... |
| 12:46.29 | swetland | tric: honestly not sure exactly how stuff's going to be configured in that regard. |
| 12:46.50 | swetland | my world tends to end well below the vm and frameworks |
| 12:46.55 | Zohan | or the diamond touch laz |
| 12:47.21 | Zohan | my world begins at the vm/native code border |
| 12:47.40 | tric | zohan: why do you need native code? |
| 12:47.47 | tric | what are you working on? |
| 12:48.59 | laz | ill still buy it ;p |
| 12:49.59 | Zohan | i just dont like restrictions |
| 12:50.13 | Zohan | laz i wont |
| 12:50.54 | laz | wait for motorlla and see what they have |
| 12:51.16 | swetland | I'm sure people will port to the openmoko device and whatever else is considered suitably free for their tastes ^^ |
| 12:51.38 | Zohan | the openmoko device is even worse |
| 12:51.41 | swetland | and nothing stops oems/carriers from shipping devices that are in a wide open configuration |
| 12:52.03 | Zohan | i guess ill get a chinese device |
| 12:52.22 | swetland | zohan: worse in that it's somehow more restrictive than android devices that have not yet shipped? |
| 12:52.45 | Zohan | no, i meant the design |
| 12:53.58 | laz | funny thing... its the same phone they being showing in the videos |
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| 13:02.38 | laz | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2llGxzWXudw |
| 13:03.22 | Zohan | we all know the phone |
| 13:04.15 | laz | now you see it again |
| 13:04.36 | Zohan | i could turn left 30cm and see it again |
| 13:05.15 | michaelnovakjr_ | this sounds productive |
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| 13:06.06 | Zohan | its not |
| 13:06.10 | Zohan | just papers |
| 13:06.38 | Zohan | even the fcc information was new to me |
| 13:06.56 | michaelnovakjr_ | are you guys programmers or fanboys? |
| 13:07.17 | Zohan | working for deutsche telekom |
| 13:07.57 | michaelnovakjr_ | so fanboy? |
| 13:08.28 | Zohan | 50:50 |
| 13:08.39 | swetland | wow that is some shaky video |
| 13:08.46 | Zohan | when i need some code i order some indian to do it |
| 13:08.46 | swetland | and an ancient build of the system |
| 13:08.47 | michaelnovakjr_ | what's the other 50? |
| 13:08.59 | Zohan | shittalking :) |
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| 13:09.18 | buster`_ | who wouldve guessed.. |
| 13:10.01 | michaelnovakjr_ | i am a little nervous about the developer community, i haven't really seen many quality applications for android yet |
| 13:10.05 | swetland | the checkerboard makes me all nostalgic for the weird windowmanager and surfaceflinger bugs it was brought in to help hunt down |
| 13:10.30 | Zohan | michaelnovakjr i believe the bigger companies will wait for a stable release |
| 13:11.04 | michaelnovakjr_ | i don't care for the bigger companies |
| 13:11.27 | michaelnovakjr_ | i'd like to see some quality open source applications, that is what I am developing :) |
| 13:11.50 | swetland | I expect things will pick up when hardware starts shipping |
| 13:12.10 | Zohan | ack @ swetland |
| 13:12.26 | swetland | emulators are fun and all, but running apps on real devices that people can buy and use is more fun |
| 13:12.38 | laz | exactly |
| 13:12.58 | swetland | some might argue we did it backwards, shipping the sdk first ^^ |
| 13:13.03 | michaelnovakjr_ | swetland: that is why I did a few apps for the vogue version for android :) |
| 13:13.26 | Zohan | thats why no professionals are developing apps for android ^^ |
| 13:13.30 | michaelnovakjr_ | it was also when programming for android was pointless |
| 13:13.33 | swetland | but I think it's good to get stuff out there and get some feedback and let people start mucking about with things. it'll just get better when it all becomes more solid |
| 13:14.13 | Zohan | "get stuff out there"? the sdk was kept back secretly. |
| 13:15.07 | michaelnovakjr_ | for obvious reasons :) |
| 13:15.14 | michaelnovakjr_ | Zohan: it was buggy as hell |
| 13:15.35 | swetland | the first sdk release was done what, almost a year ago? and then M5, and then 0.9, and more to follow? You're welcome to bitch and moan, but I'm certainly not the guy responsible for these decisions ^^ |
| 13:16.09 | michaelnovakjr_ | i actually think not releasing one was a good idea |
| 13:16.20 | michaelnovakjr_ | it probably would have created more bitching and moaning |
| 13:16.33 | swetland | invariably people are going to be unhappy |
| 13:16.48 | Zohan | i really dont care much |
| 13:16.54 | Zohan | i get paid, thats what i care about |
| 13:16.58 | michaelnovakjr_ | you aren't a developer :) |
| 13:19.23 | laz | Dream has GPS confirmed |
| 13:19.50 | gambler | what were the chanes the first android phone wouldnt have location services |
| 13:20.07 | michaelnovakjr_ | who said they will |
| 13:20.42 | *** join/#android BBHoss (n=bbhoss@c-68-62-170-33.hsd1.al.comcast.net) |
| 13:35.05 | Zohan | michaelnovakjr and proud of it |
| 13:35.16 | michaelnovakjr_ | ? |
| 13:35.17 | *** join/#android yakischloba (n=jake@c-24-17-53-6.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 13:35.27 | Zohan | [15:16:58] <michaelnovakjr_> you aren't a developer :) |
| 13:35.59 | gambler | more grist for the mill |
| 13:36.19 | michaelnovakjr_ | we really should petition dan to setup an android developer irc channel |
| 13:36.54 | gambler | michaelnovakjr, shouldnt you be in #iphone ? |
| 13:37.11 | michaelnovakjr_ | :) not developing for the iphone |
| 13:37.48 | Dougie187 | did you get your iphone yet michaelnovakjr_? |
| 13:38.00 | michaelnovakjr_ | this week Dougie187 |
| 13:38.07 | Dougie187 | traitor. lol |
| 13:38.07 | *** join/#android matt_c (n=mcroydon@137.147.45.66.cm.sunflower.com) |
| 13:38.27 | michaelnovakjr_ | probably going to have to go after work.... you'd think with three apple stores in NYC it wouldn't be so bad... |
| 13:38.43 | michaelnovakjr_ | 4 if you count the one way out in the middle of nowhere :) |
| 13:39.07 | Dougie187 | lol we don't even have 1 here i dont think. |
| 13:41.08 | Zohan | i didnt knew there are apple stores |
| 13:41.27 | Zohan | but apple isnt as popular in germany as in the US |
| 13:42.11 | michaelnovakjr_ | Zohan: why not? |
| 13:43.19 | Zohan | people dont get manipulated as easy by marketing |
| 13:43.25 | Zohan | they compare specs and prices |
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| 13:50.39 | gambler | Germans don't get manipulated as easily by marketing? hmmm |
| 13:51.13 | gambler | From what I've seen of the Eurovision song contest, that doesnt hold true :p |
| 13:51.39 | Zohan | at least it true for the apple marketing |
| 13:51.53 | michaelnovakjr_ | Zohan: are you saying apple products aren't good? |
| 13:52.04 | Zohan | im saying theyre expensive |
| 13:52.10 | michaelnovakjr_ | because they are good |
| 13:52.36 | Zohan | lets compare the ipod shuffle to the chipod shuffle :p |
| 13:52.37 | michaelnovakjr_ | a honda doesn't have the same performance as a bmw.... there's an obvious price difference :) |
| 13:55.09 | Zohan | my chipod looks the same, doesnt need itunes, sounds the same and costs 1/10th of the ipod |
| 13:55.42 | Dougie187 | lol but it has a retarded name. |
| 13:55.44 | Dougie187 | it just sounds cheap. |
| 13:55.51 | michaelnovakjr_ | Dougie187: the interface blows |
| 13:55.54 | swetland | they're expensive because people will pay a premium for the brand in many cases (their desktop PCs in particular are not much different from stock PCs any more). they do make some nice consumer electronics. I'm not personally fond of their laptops, prefering a nice boring thinkpad. ^^ |
| 13:56.17 | Zohan | true swetland |
| 13:56.24 | michaelnovakjr_ | swetland: i like the apple laptops, because you can run all three operating systems on it |
| 13:56.32 | Dougie187 | im not big on apple laptops. |
| 13:56.36 | Dougie187 | because i dont need 3 oses. |
| 13:56.46 | michaelnovakjr_ | i use mac/linux/windows |
| 13:56.49 | Dougie187 | and i hate the single click. |
| 13:56.51 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 13:56.52 | michaelnovakjr_ | so its definitely nice for me :) |
| 13:57.07 | Zohan | im on a thinkpad atm. looks ugly. works fantastic. cheaper than an apple. cheaper to upgrade. rock solid case. |
| 13:57.21 | Dougie187 | im on a thinkpad. i don't think its ugly. |
| 13:57.24 | Dougie187 | but everything else is true. |
| 13:57.31 | Dougie187 | it was cheaper then a dell for a better computer for me too. |
| 13:57.32 | Zohan | michael you can run all OS on every laptop ;) |
| 13:57.44 | Zohan | for half the price of an apple |
| 14:01.37 | Miek | i'm also on a thinkpad :D |
| 14:02.11 | Zohan | seems like people know whats good in #android :p |
| 14:04.07 | *** join/#android umdk1d3 (n=umdk1d3@adsl-dynamic-64-79-45-15.bridgeband.net) |
| 14:05.15 | Zohan | what kind of thinkpads are you guys on? im on a X31, having a T61 and X20 at home |
| 14:06.12 | Dougie187 | i have a T61 |
| 14:06.27 | gambler | I bought an X60 because it was the only one I could find without a touchpad...pretty disappointing level of processing power |
| 14:06.40 | anno^da | (Oh I love such a discussion people comparing notebooks like cars and theirs houses *laughing* |
| 14:06.45 | Dougie187 | you didn't want a touchpad? |
| 14:06.56 | Zohan | trackpoint ftw |
| 14:07.00 | gambler | yah i prefer the trackpoint too |
| 14:07.03 | Dougie187 | i use them both. |
| 14:07.08 | Dougie187 | but the trackpoint drifts sometimes. |
| 14:07.10 | Dougie187 | and its slower. |
| 14:07.13 | anno^da | hates the touchpad as well as well as a trackpoint :> |
| 14:07.20 | Dougie187 | but i dig the middle click on it. |
| 14:07.31 | gambler | I find it way faster...but I usually bring a mouse if I am using my laptop and travelling |
| 14:07.58 | Dougie187 | i always have a mouse with me, but i like the touchpad, and sometimes i enjoy the trackpoint/ |
| 14:08.00 | Dougie187 | .* |
| 14:08.22 | gambler | i hate that big space between the edge of the computer and the keyboard that a touchpad forces... |
| 14:09.22 | gambler | on the upside that computer is very light |
| 14:09.43 | gambler | and v good battery |
| 14:10.25 | Zohan | its amazing small and lightweight |
| 14:10.37 | Zohan | and the battery is perfect |
| 14:10.56 | Dougie187 | i am enjoying my t61 so far. |
| 14:11.01 | Dougie187 | ive only had it for about a month maybe. |
| 14:13.54 | Zohan | its a good device |
| 14:17.20 | michaelnovakjr_ | Zohan: mac os x obviously doesn't run like it does on a mac anywhere else |
| 14:17.44 | Zohan | isnt mac using intel chips? |
| 14:17.56 | michaelnovakjr_ | yes |
| 14:18.01 | michaelnovakjr_ | but that doesn't mean anything |
| 14:18.10 | gambler | does anyone here know bouncy castle well? I have a bouncy question. |
| 14:18.17 | Zohan | have you tried running it on similar hardware (e.g. scsi vs ide) |
| 14:18.23 | michaelnovakjr_ | yea |
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| 14:18.52 | Zohan | and it runs the same :) |
| 14:19.03 | michaelnovakjr_ | nop |
| 14:19.04 | michaelnovakjr_ | e |
| 14:19.06 | michaelnovakjr_ | very buggy |
| 14:19.52 | Zohan | ofc |
| 14:20.10 | michaelnovakjr_ | ? |
| 14:20.45 | Zohan | an ironic "of course" |
| 14:21.04 | michaelnovakjr_ | so then obviously its worth the money for a mac :) |
| 14:21.17 | Zohan | thats what i was thinking youre up to |
| 14:21.54 | Dougie187 | only if you need mac os. |
| 14:22.00 | Zohan | "apple hardware is actually better. because its branded an apple on it. thats why its so expensive. its not that im dumb and kiss steve jobs ass. no. its really different. think different! har!" |
| 14:22.01 | Dougie187 | and i mean *need* |
| 14:22.33 | michaelnovakjr_ | Zohan: i have never had an issue with my mac.... but my pc... well that has issues all the time |
| 14:23.03 | michaelnovakjr_ | and that pc has hardware issues.. and doesn't run windows |
| 14:23.15 | Zohan | its an error on layer 8 |
| 14:23.16 | anno^da | I have to aggree that an apple is not better in hardware than any other pc or notebook |
| 14:23.30 | Zohan | thank you anno |
| 14:23.37 | michaelnovakjr_ | you germans are all alike |
| 14:23.56 | anno^da | ;) |
| 14:24.03 | Zohan | you cant prove it, we can ;) |
| 14:24.10 | anno^da | ( michaelnovakjr_ I'm using a mac so :) ) |
| 14:24.12 | Zohan | youre steve jobs brainwashed hehe |
| 14:24.14 | michaelnovakjr_ | hahahahahahahaha |
| 14:24.20 | Dougie187 | I have to say, apples are nice, but i don't think they are worth the money. |
| 14:24.29 | anno^da | Well |
| 14:24.32 | michaelnovakjr_ | they are that much more money |
| 14:24.35 | anno^da | the Macbook is not expensive |
| 14:24.37 | anno^da | not at all |
| 14:24.39 | Dougie187 | sure. |
| 14:24.44 | Dougie187 | but its not great at all either. |
| 14:24.46 | michaelnovakjr_ | you make it sound like you have to mortgage your house :) |
| 14:24.55 | Dougie187 | just about. |
| 14:24.56 | anno^da | But it is as ugly as every notebook for 800 bucks |
| 14:26.04 | Zohan | were just clever and count our money ;) |
| 14:26.24 | anno^da | So comparing my Macbook Pro to every other notebook I had is very funny. It is the first nootebook that hibernates and wakes up nicely. |
| 14:26.41 | michaelnovakjr_ | :) |
| 14:26.49 | anno^da | But it is something very very subjective. |
| 14:26.56 | anno^da | So I dont care what others buy. |
| 14:27.13 | anno^da | I'm using it with every 3 os'es on it and thats fine for me |
| 14:27.25 | michaelnovakjr_ | me too |
| 14:28.01 | Dougie187 | do you guys triple boot? |
| 14:28.02 | anno^da | On OSX I can do cutting (I love Final Cut Pro) and audio recording which I cant do that well and comfortable as on any other system. |
| 14:28.03 | Dougie187 | or virtualize? |
| 14:28.15 | anno^da | Windows virtualized |
| 14:28.28 | anno^da | and Linux native. |
| 14:28.36 | Dougie187 | ok |
| 14:28.43 | Dougie187 | you use fusion? |
| 14:28.48 | Dougie187 | or just vmware? |
| 14:28.55 | Zohan | i have tripple boot (win, linux, bsd) |
| 14:29.11 | anno^da | no at the moment I'm using Virtualbox |
| 14:29.13 | Zohan | and some VMs, like win2003 server and others |
| 14:30.27 | anno^da | but in the end it is all about subjective things. |
| 14:30.31 | michaelnovakjr_ | win2003 virtual? what for? |
| 14:31.09 | anno^da | I'm the more visual guy and I hate the windows user interface. It is overloaded ugly and just not comfortable to work in. But as you see it is subjective. |
| 14:31.26 | Zohan | michaelnovakjr: testing IIS |
| 14:31.38 | michaelnovakjr_ | ew |
| 14:31.52 | michaelnovakjr_ | IIS is the worst webserver ever made |
| 14:32.21 | Zohan | i dont care, i just needed to see the default log config and how its beeing changed and tweak it a bit |
| 14:32.33 | michaelnovakjr_ | for what? |
| 14:32.49 | Zohan | tracking users using webservers |
| 14:33.21 | michaelnovakjr_ | ? |
| 14:34.06 | Zohan | ive setup a test environment where i was able to track users on different servers and see which content they read and long how |
| 14:34.24 | michaelnovakjr_ | and you needed IIS? |
| 14:34.43 | Zohan | using standard http on apache/lighttpd/iis and php/mysql/javascript |
| 14:34.56 | michaelnovakjr_ | yea, its called logs :) |
| 14:35.05 | Zohan | sure, i need to compare the major deamons |
| 14:35.15 | Zohan | apache, iis and lighttpd |
| 14:35.23 | michaelnovakjr_ | we use logs all the time at work... its easy :) |
| 14:35.54 | Zohan | how would you track me on spiegel.de, google.com and alibaba.com |
| 14:36.07 | Zohan | (its not hard) |
| 14:36.14 | michaelnovakjr_ | why would i do that? |
| 14:36.41 | Zohan | creating user profiles |
| 14:37.06 | michaelnovakjr_ | profiles for what? i don't see the purpose |
| 14:37.33 | Zohan | like michael reads cnn daily. he is interessted in sports. not politics. he prefers comparing prices on xyz. he googles most brands and often looks for benchmarks etc. |
| 14:37.35 | Zohan | money |
| 14:37.43 | Zohan | knowledge about users is money |
| 14:37.58 | Dougie187 | knowledge about users is also creepy as hell |
| 14:37.59 | michaelnovakjr_ | hm, i'd say that is a bit hairy |
| 14:38.07 | Zohan | it is |
| 14:38.15 | Dougie187 | and completely stalkerish. |
| 14:38.25 | michaelnovakjr_ | yea, what gives you the right to do that? |
| 14:38.25 | Zohan | the worst part is: its legal |
| 14:38.43 | michaelnovakjr_ | i highly doubt in the US it is |
| 14:38.53 | Dougie187 | i think it is if you put it in your ToS |
| 14:39.00 | Dougie187 | but if people read them they won't sign up. |
| 14:39.04 | michaelnovakjr_ | yea :) |
| 14:39.10 | ttuttle | Dougie187: but nobody reads them ;-) |
| 14:39.10 | Zohan | its a demonstration how someone can create a profile. goal is to ring the alarm bells. |
| 14:39.13 | Dougie187 | true. |
| 14:39.19 | michaelnovakjr_ | i read them |
| 14:39.23 | Zohan | michaelnovakjr in the US it is. in germany i may be not |
| 14:39.29 | Dougie187 | but average people don't read them. |
| 14:39.32 | ttuttle | michaelnovakjr_: I mean nobody statistically. I usually at least skim them. |
| 14:39.41 | michaelnovakjr_ | Zohan: again what is the purpose of this |
| 14:39.41 | Zohan | no, you dont have to sign ToS. just visit the pages |
| 14:39.50 | Zohan | michaelnovakjr: ringing alarm bells |
| 14:39.51 | ttuttle | Zohan: oh, those sites :-( |
| 14:40.06 | *** join/#android vbabiy (n=vbabiy@rrcs-24-97-148-190.nys.biz.rr.com) |
| 14:40.22 | Dougie187 | so basically, you want to make web based spyware. |
| 14:40.34 | michaelnovakjr_ | Dougie187: yea, basically he's an ass |
| 14:40.55 | Zohan | michael and me are on a private war |
| 14:41.06 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 14:41.15 | ttuttle | Ooh, spyware? Can I help? ;-) |
| 14:41.16 | Dougie187 | you trash his mac, he trashes you |
| 14:41.26 | Zohan | he is the good guy, writing open source software, providing for free, keeping private data private |
| 14:41.29 | michaelnovakjr_ | Dougie187: i just can't stand people who create shit like spyware |
| 14:41.36 | Dougie187 | me either. |
| 14:41.38 | Dougie187 | im just kidding. |
| 14:41.41 | ttuttle | too. |
| 14:41.42 | Dougie187 | spyware is retarded. |
| 14:41.44 | ttuttle | shifty-eyes. |
| 14:41.48 | Zohan | me selling software, never giving something away for free, beeing the bad guy, gathering data |
| 14:41.59 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 14:42.05 | Dougie187 | the bad guy thing only comes from the last part. |
| 14:42.06 | michaelnovakjr_ | Zohan: selling software is one thing... creating spyware is another |
| 14:42.09 | Dougie187 | nothing else matters. |
| 14:42.15 | Dougie187 | gathering the data is what makes you a bad guy. |
| 14:42.31 | michaelnovakjr_ | and a douche bag |
| 14:42.35 | Zohan | i dont, i dont even own many webservers (only 3) |
| 14:42.46 | Dougie187 | and each of them collect data? |
| 14:43.22 | Zohan | its considered illegal to log ip addresses |
| 14:43.25 | Zohan | in germany |
| 14:43.32 | michaelnovakjr_ | Zohan: uh |
| 14:43.35 | ttuttle | Zohan: wow that's hilarious. |
| 14:43.42 | michaelnovakjr_ | then what the hell does it matter |
| 14:43.50 | Zohan | its not quite sure if it really is. but it might be |
| 14:43.50 | michaelnovakjr_ | obviously you can't pin data back to me at that point :) |
| 14:44.05 | michaelnovakjr_ | you'd need an ip |
| 14:44.11 | *** join/#android matt_c (n=mcroydon@137.147.45.66.cm.sunflower.com) |
| 14:44.20 | Dougie187 | or a user name... |
| 14:44.30 | Zohan | logging the first 3 octects if ok. if i combine traceroute information (first hop) and the first 3 octects, its legal and i can trace you |
| 14:44.37 | Zohan | *is ok |
| 14:44.41 | Dougie187 | ... |
| 14:44.58 | ttuttle | Zohan: but traceroute won't tell you anything else. |
| 14:45.02 | Zohan | and i didnt even start the cookie part.. |
| 14:45.06 | gambler | I would like to get some naked pictures of Angela Merkel |
| 14:45.07 | ttuttle | Zohan: It's really rare that the *last* octet decides the routing. |
| 14:45.12 | ttuttle | gambler: Try Google. |
| 14:45.22 | ttuttle | gambler: But don't forget to turn off SafeSearch. |
| 14:45.44 | gambler | ttuttle, really? she must have had a long career |
| 14:46.03 | ttuttle | gambler: I don't know who she is. |
| 14:46.13 | ttuttle | gambler: I was just suggesting a starting point for your internet voyage. |
| 14:46.16 | gambler | ttuttle, chancellorette of germany |
| 14:46.23 | ttuttle | gambler: ah |
| 14:46.27 | ttuttle | gambler: that might be difficult then. |
| 14:46.43 | Dougie187 | bbl class time. but Zohan that is retarded. you shouldnt do that. |
| 14:46.50 | *** part/#android Dougie187 (n=doug@wg-d232043.dsl.fsu.edu) |
| 14:46.59 | Zohan | not logging ips? you mean i should log ips? |
| 14:47.12 | ttuttle | Zohan: everyone logs IPs. |
| 14:47.14 | michaelnovakjr_ | no meaning... i'll catch you :) |
| 14:47.23 | ttuttle | Zohan: Just make sure you throw out the logs after you parse them. |
| 14:47.30 | Zohan | ttuttle: no, i could sue you in germany if you do |
| 14:47.38 | ttuttle | Zohan: Well I don't live in Germany :-P |
| 14:47.45 | ttuttle | Zohan: But that's crazy ;-) |
| 14:47.58 | ttuttle | otoh, it eliminates the whole subpoena issue for a large class of websites. |
| 14:48.00 | Zohan | its privacy ^^ |
| 14:48.30 | gambler | http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y125/kskiska/merkeldecolletage.jpg |
| 14:48.39 | michaelnovakjr_ | Zohan: its a good thing i work for the US gov't cyber crimes :) |
| 14:48.43 | gambler | http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/04-mfb-5127742-bush-merkel-hoch,templateId%3DrenderScaled,property%3DBild,width%3D284-thumb.jpg |
| 14:49.12 | Zohan | michaelnovakjr_: the idea is to prevent crimes without logs :) |
| 14:49.21 | michaelnovakjr_ | ? |
| 14:49.46 | Zohan | you dont need webserver logs to prevent cyber crimes |
| 14:50.06 | michaelnovakjr_ | not trying to prevent them |
| 14:50.12 | ttuttle | GAH CYBER CRIME IS NOT A WORD |
| 14:50.14 | michaelnovakjr_ | looking to squash douche bags like youself |
| 14:50.20 | ttuttle | CYBER IS NOT A WORD |
| 14:50.32 | Zohan | what are the logs good for then? |
| 14:50.37 | gambler | michaelnovakjr, did they give you a gun? |
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| 14:50.45 | michaelnovakjr_ | gambler: yea yours |
| 14:50.50 | ttuttle | Zohan: Seeing what your users do on your site, I guess. |
| 14:50.55 | michaelnovakjr_ | ttuttle: yes |
| 14:51.01 | michaelnovakjr_ | but not other sites |
| 14:51.08 | michaelnovakjr_ | Zohan: is a moron |
| 14:51.09 | gambler | i dont understand |
| 14:51.19 | ttuttle | michaelnovakjr_: Yeah, I know. |
| 14:51.26 | ttuttle | michaelnovakjr_: (Unless you share the data.) |
| 14:51.32 | michaelnovakjr_ | ttuttle: yes |
| 14:51.40 | michaelnovakjr_ | which obviously isn't the case |
| 14:51.51 | Zohan | it is okay to pseudorandomize the ip address to see what users do |
| 14:52.27 | ttuttle | Zohan: oh, cool. |
| 14:53.06 | michaelnovakjr_ | Zohan: that is bullshit |
| 14:54.11 | SanMehat | morning |
| 14:54.22 | *** join/#android trigatch4_ (n=chatzill@c-68-48-9-210.hsd1.md.comcast.net) |
| 14:54.32 | mikez5 | morning san |
| 14:55.00 | jasta | woo, *sleepy* :) |
| 14:55.15 | SanMehat | My 'cyber' alarm went off this morning... somebody is apparently using it in channel |
| 14:55.22 | SanMehat | lol |
| 14:55.37 | SanMehat | morning mike, jasta, michaelnovak, ttuttle, gambler.. |
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| 14:56.08 | michaelnovakjr_ | morning |
| 14:56.12 | gambler | yoyo |
| 14:56.13 | Zohan | michaelnovakjr thats german law |
| 14:57.05 | SanMehat | ... |
| 14:57.13 | SanMehat | zohan: do you have an ANDROID related question? |
| 14:57.34 | michaelnovakjr_ | no.... we need to have better banning abilities |
| 14:57.38 | Zohan | i think noone has |
| 14:58.25 | jasta | i do, actually |
| 14:59.09 | Zohan | 5pm, work done. im off :) cya everyone |
| 14:59.21 | michaelnovakjr_ | don't come back douche |
| 14:59.32 | Zohan | haha, i will mi amor, i will |
| 15:01.31 | *** part/#android zoolooc (n=lucian@nrbg-4dbf890f.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 15:16.02 | tric | zohan: you have no clue, nobody can sue anyone for logging ips. but you can ask a provider to hand out your ip info to you, and/or delete them. unless its a isp/email provider. |
| 15:16.56 | SanMehat | 15 mins too late |
| 15:17.43 | jasta | ttuttle: *poke*, *jab* |
| 15:23.52 | tric | sanmehat: true, but maybe someone else was interested in it |
| 15:26.53 | *** join/#android mohbana (n=mohbana@87-194-191-26.bethere.co.uk) |
| 15:27.59 | mohbana | hi, where can i upload a doc that i want shared on google? |
| 15:28.46 | jasta | google docs and spreadsheets. is this an android related question somehow? |
| 15:35.31 | trigatch4 | any update on when the ADC Winners will be announced? |
| 15:35.36 | trigatch4 | or is that still up in the air? |
| 15:38.47 | SanMehat | mmm coffee |
| 15:39.26 | jasta | god i hate the mornings ;) |
| 15:39.27 | *** join/#android matt_c_ (n=mcroydon@137.147.45.66.cm.sunflower.com) |
| 15:39.35 | jasta | esp after our dumbasses stayed up talking about nothing the night before :) |
| 15:40.38 | *** join/#android matt_c__ (n=mcroydon@137.147.45.66.cm.sunflower.com) |
| 15:40.57 | tric | jasta: think about .... different timezones! |
| 15:41.22 | jasta | San doesn't live in a different timezone |
| 15:41.39 | SanMehat | :) |
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| 17:02.26 | anno^da | lol androidguys.com is taking every incoming mail and shaking it to a rumour device |
| 17:03.31 | anno^da | if there will be noch 3.5mm jack or a line output it will be a deal breaker for me |
| 17:04.11 | anno^da | androidguys AT gmail.com to send in some new rumours :P |
| 17:09.16 | jasta | those guys are morons anyway |
| 17:12.02 | morrildl | whois SanMehat |
| 17:12.11 | morrildl | oops :) |
| 17:12.12 | SanMehat | i'm me! |
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| 17:15.07 | *** mode/#android [+o morrildl] by ChanServ |
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| 17:16.38 | muthu | upgraded fedora and x went crazy |
| 17:20.29 | muthu | ubuntu might be better than fedora 9 |
| 17:20.39 | SanMehat | fedora is up to 9? |
| 17:20.40 | SanMehat | wow |
| 17:20.48 | muthu | yup |
| 17:21.15 | muthu | except for this x fonts screwup.. looks nice |
| 17:21.39 | SanMehat | cool, i always used to run fedora |
| 17:22.19 | muthu | its stable |
| 17:22.44 | muthu | upgrade also mostly goes through fine |
| 17:23.36 | muthu | i'm playing with a few things before i get serious next week |
| 17:24.00 | muthu | ubuntu vs fedora, who wins? |
| 17:25.35 | *** join/#android fariseo (i=fariseo@real.wilbury.sk) |
| 17:26.59 | fariseo | i hope htc will make a dream.mini version, without the hw keyboard and that joystick |
| 17:27.24 | muthu | i hope too |
| 17:27.48 | michaelnovakjr_ | muthu ubuntu is better than fedor |
| 17:28.24 | muthu | michaelnovakjr_: heard ubuntu upgrades are a big pain |
| 17:28.44 | jasta | muthu: you heard wrong lol |
| 17:28.45 | michaelnovakjr_ | nope |
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| 17:28.50 | michaelnovakjr_ | very wrong |
| 17:28.59 | jasta | Debian was literally designed to smoothly upgrade from release to release. |
| 17:29.00 | muthu | ha |
| 17:29.06 | fariseo | does it need that joystick, or can android be all touchscreen? |
| 17:29.07 | jasta | RedHat was not. |
| 17:29.24 | muthu | fedora upgrades are stable |
| 17:29.26 | jasta | fariseo: play with the emulator; it can function mostly find with just the touch screen. except that you nee the menu and back buttons |
| 17:29.27 | muthu | and works great |
| 17:29.38 | muthu | ubuntu fails a lot during upgrades |
| 17:29.41 | michaelnovakjr_ | fariseo: you don't want a small touchscreen only device |
| 17:29.44 | jasta | muthu: Regardless, it was part of Debian's design philosophy to do this well, and it has done so always. |
| 17:29.48 | michaelnovakjr_ | especially from HTC... trust me |
| 17:30.45 | muthu | jasta: how's five shaping up? |
| 17:30.54 | muthu | getting ready for release huh ;) |
| 17:32.04 | fariseo | so what would be your dream hardware for android? |
| 17:32.27 | jasta | fariseo: my hope is that android lives up to its promise and actually runs on lots of different types of handsets |
| 17:32.30 | jasta | so we all can get some choice |
| 17:32.52 | jasta | because i honestly have to admit, the G1 as its been shown to us so far doesn't look that attractive to me. |
| 17:33.06 | fariseo | which one is G1? |
| 17:33.12 | jasta | fariseo: the only one you've been looking at. |
| 17:33.16 | michaelnovakjr_ | :) |
| 17:33.25 | fariseo | that white thing with the small screen? |
| 17:33.26 | SanMehat | hahahaha |
| 17:33.42 | muthu | G1 looks good |
| 17:33.42 | jasta | i actually like phones like the MOTO Q9H. Nice comfy keyboard, at the cost of a smaller screen. |
| 17:34.03 | jasta | fariseo: The screen is actually pretty damn big. 320x240px resolution. |
| 17:34.10 | fariseo | i like my iphone, except i feel gay owning any apple product :) |
| 17:34.13 | michaelnovakjr_ | iphone ::cough:: ::cough:: |
| 17:34.24 | michaelnovakjr_ | fariseo: you are gay for feeling gay about that |
| 17:34.45 | jasta | correction: 320x480px :) |
| 17:36.12 | muthu | G1 will rock with all those gps enable social networking apps |
| 17:36.24 | fariseo | which one is G1? |
| 17:36.36 | jasta | fariseo: go to planetandroid.com: it's that one. |
| 17:36.56 | fariseo | this? http://blogs.reuters.com/summits/files/2008/05/google-android.jpg |
| 17:37.18 | muthu | woah |
| 17:37.36 | muthu | not that |
| 17:37.42 | fariseo | this would be nice http://img.gsmarena.com/vv/pics/samsung/samsung-f480-00.jpg |
| 17:37.43 | jasta | fariseo: lol, *NO* |
| 17:37.52 | jasta | that was the damn prototype handset :) |
| 17:38.26 | fariseo | ok, htc dream = g1? |
| 17:38.32 | jasta | yes |
| 17:38.38 | muthu | TMobile G1 |
| 17:38.47 | jasta | the dream was never the branded version. the g1 is what it seems to be branding as. |
| 17:38.53 | fariseo | no hw keayboard for me |
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| 17:40.31 | muthu | http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/news.phtml/17195/18219/htc-dream-revealed-t-mobile-g1.phtml |
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| 17:41.08 | elbac | Is gears/webkit integration in the latest SDK? |
| 17:41.35 | muthu | yes |
| 17:41.39 | jasta | gears is, webkit needs no client support. |
| 17:41.44 | *** join/#android romainguy_ (n=romaingu@nat/google/x-df4bdab2b995b81f) |
| 17:41.55 | jasta | assuming you mean webkit as gwt |
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| 17:42.49 | jasta | muthu: remember how you argued that Gears was just to add offline support, and i kept insisting that they were going to add geo-stuffs to it? well, they did. |
| 17:43.36 | muthu | jasta: yeah, so that supports my point |
| 17:44.42 | jasta | no, it wasn't your point. |
| 17:44.52 | jasta | you were just simply wrong :) |
| 17:45.13 | elbac | jasta/muthu, is there a releases notes or something that says something to that effect? |
| 17:45.36 | muthu | we get our release notes from this channel :) |
| 17:47.38 | muthu | elbac: its in upgrade notes |
| 17:47.53 | elbac | thanks |
| 17:49.27 | michaelnovakjr_ | elbac no we dont |
| 17:49.39 | michaelnovakjr_ | this channel doesn't provide release notes :) |
| 17:50.10 | elbac | I think you know what I mean :) |
| 17:50.56 | michaelnovakjr_ | elbac, the release notes are at the google code page for andriod |
| 17:51.09 | elbac | yup, I got it. thanks |
| 17:51.57 | michaelnovakjr_ | muthu's release notes tend to be wishful thinking :) |
| 17:53.44 | muthu | there was some pretty hard comments about the android UI in general |
| 17:53.59 | michaelnovakjr_ | ? |
| 17:54.11 | michaelnovakjr_ | what do you mean.... hard comments? |
| 17:54.20 | muthu | nasty? |
| 17:54.52 | muthu | most people doesn't seem to like the UI design |
| 17:54.53 | michaelnovakjr_ | its a nice UI i think |
| 17:55.09 | michaelnovakjr_ | not the home screen as much... but i like the UI widgets |
| 17:55.18 | michaelnovakjr_ | i liked the m5 home screen |
| 17:55.19 | *** join/#android OpnSrc1 (i=harisha1@gateway/tor/x-3fed9bb0e8122d05) |
| 17:55.26 | michaelnovakjr_ | or the private SDK home screen actually |
| 17:55.44 | tethridge | screen shot? |
| 17:55.55 | tethridge | :-) |
| 17:57.43 | muthu | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFjAdgwqtfU |
| 17:58.43 | muthu | jasta: you can get a lot of inspiration from diggin for five UI design |
| 17:59.13 | michaelnovakjr_ | muthu, i don't like that UI |
| 17:59.45 | michaelnovakjr_ | its a bit overkill |
| 17:59.58 | muthu | michaelnovakjr_: that's the best Android UI design i've seen so far |
| 18:00.02 | michaelnovakjr_ | ? |
| 18:00.11 | fariseo | it's skinnable, no? |
| 18:00.12 | michaelnovakjr_ | that one? |
| 18:00.12 | muthu | its perfect for a music player |
| 18:00.19 | michaelnovakjr_ | oh boy |
| 18:00.46 | michaelnovakjr_ | that has way too many moving parts |
| 18:00.47 | muthu | fariseo: not much info about skins now |
| 18:00.57 | michaelnovakjr_ | muthu, a good media player UI is the iPod |
| 18:01.03 | michaelnovakjr_ | simple simple simple |
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| 18:01.54 | muthu | michaelnovakjr_: you are the only one who have not like diggin so far |
| 18:02.05 | fariseo | any idea how much will g1 sell for? without a contract... |
| 18:02.13 | fariseo | iphone is 500 euro without a contract |
| 18:02.22 | michaelnovakjr_ | fariseo: expect the same :) |
| 18:02.28 | muthu | will be less than that |
| 18:02.30 | michaelnovakjr_ | in the US its 300 just like the iPhone |
| 18:02.44 | romainguy_ | no pricing has been announced |
| 18:03.13 | michaelnovakjr_ | i hate bloggers |
| 18:03.14 | fariseo | 500 euro isnt that bad, the top nokias and ericsons are that much too |
| 18:03.48 | jasta | listen to romain, no pricing is announced. |
| 18:03.53 | fariseo | and symbian is crap |
| 18:04.06 | jasta | muthu makes stuff up |
| 18:04.11 | michaelnovakjr_ | haha |
| 18:05.10 | muthu | 499 euro is what i heard |
| 18:05.23 | jasta | but what you hear is nonsense |
| 18:05.27 | jasta | and what you say is nonsense |
| 18:05.28 | jasta | so just shut up |
| 18:05.40 | muthu | woah |
| 18:06.09 | michaelnovakjr_ | ooo |
| 18:07.19 | muthu | angry jasta!! |
| 18:07.26 | jasta | if you want to suspect something say you are doing so so you don't confuse these poor folks that don't know anything about how much of a liar you are |
| 18:07.36 | muthu | lol |
| 18:07.47 | muthu | everyone listen to jastapedia |
| 18:07.54 | fariseo | i would idealy want a 100g device with slightly smaller then iphone |
| 18:07.55 | michaelnovakjr_ | its the truth |
| 18:08.19 | michaelnovakjr_ | muthu, saying it will be less than that.... you aren't basing that on anything |
| 18:08.19 | jasta | fariseo: 100g? |
| 18:08.27 | fariseo | eh, wtf did i write there :) |
| 18:09.02 | fariseo | yes 100g, iphone is 133g and its heavy :) |
| 18:09.17 | michaelnovakjr_ | muthu thinking it will topple nokia..... its all gibberish |
| 18:09.20 | jasta | oh, weight. yes. |
| 18:09.53 | fariseo | and 100x60x9mm :) |
| 18:10.03 | jasta | fariseo: well, just realiez that materials and manufacturing costs $$$ ;) you will probably only get cheaper, lighter, or smaller, not all 3 ;) |
| 18:10.29 | michaelnovakjr_ | i absolutely hate the HTC vogue touch screen |
| 18:10.29 | fariseo | wait, 90x60x12mm :) |
| 18:10.36 | jasta | michaelnovakjr_: lol, yeah, it is terrible. |
| 18:10.55 | fariseo | not sure if 90mm is enough for a good touch screen 'experience' :) |
| 18:11.04 | michaelnovakjr_ | overall, its a disappointing device if you want to use it for anything useful |
| 18:11.20 | jasta | michaelnovakjr_: yeah. even the official OSK in WM is bad :) |
| 18:11.28 | jasta | unusably bad, really |
| 18:11.52 | jasta | microsoft loves to solve complex problems with quick hack-jobs that don't fool anyone :) |
| 18:12.04 | fariseo | HTC vogue < what about its touch screen? the software of hw? |
| 18:12.56 | fariseo | if HTC makes just a touchscreen device, can the fck that up? |
| 18:12.57 | jasta | fariseo: there's some backstory here hehe |
| 18:13.19 | jasta | the HTC vogue is a phone currently on the market that can run Android pretty well (radio, touchscreen, etc) |
| 18:13.41 | jasta | but it's basically a really terrible phone on its own. small touchscreen and no kb. it just really doesn't work at all :) |
| 18:14.41 | fariseo | android has a 'pop.up' kb, just like the iphone, no? |
| 18:14.56 | jasta | fariseo: no in the current SDK< NO. |
| 18:15.04 | jasta | , no.* |
| 18:15.24 | jasta | or, if it does, i don't how to call it up? :) |
| 18:16.20 | michaelnovakjr_ | yea me too |
| 18:16.24 | jasta | btw, has anyone figured out what the "Star" button does yet? :) see emulator -help-keys |
| 18:16.31 | michaelnovakjr_ | but overall the vogue is a terrible device |
| 18:16.48 | fariseo | so without that support..., how can i expect just a touchscreen.only device? :) |
| 18:17.02 | jasta | fariseo: well, the google team seems to be kind of iterating through Android this way |
| 18:17.10 | michaelnovakjr_ | fariseo: i'm sure if there's a touchscreen only device... it will support it otherwise there won't be one :) |
| 18:17.14 | jasta | it's likely that they have already begun working on intrinsic support for other types of devices |
| 18:17.24 | jasta | but they just haven't shown us that work yet. |
| 18:17.24 | *** part/#android muthu (n=sara@59.92.58.10) |
| 18:17.46 | tethridge | jasta, the NDA doesn't allow it |
| 18:17.55 | michaelnovakjr_ | NDA? |
| 18:17.57 | tethridge | :-) |
| 18:18.08 | tethridge | of course |
| 18:18.18 | fariseo | kind of iterating through Android this way < i dont get that :) |
| 18:18.28 | tethridge | I asked a question a while back and got an answer to the effect of "I'd tell you if I could". |
| 18:18.41 | tethridge | this was after the new release of the software |
| 18:18.46 | tethridge | sdk |
| 18:18.54 | michaelnovakjr_ | you mean about the keyboard? |
| 18:19.08 | tethridge | about switching pictures using swipe |
| 18:19.22 | tethridge | I was told that the logic behind the design couln't be told |
| 18:19.34 | tethridge | but that there was a good reason |
| 18:19.47 | michaelnovakjr_ | i have no idea what you are talking about |
| 18:19.51 | tethridge | lol |
| 18:20.04 | jasta | fariseo: what i mean is they are kind of focusing on one device at a time it seems |
| 18:20.16 | jasta | so it is hard to realize how android will be adapted to other devices because they haven't adapted it yet :) |
| 18:20.17 | tethridge | just that they are surely working on features specific to stuff that they won't disclose |
| 18:20.21 | jasta | but i believe they do plan to |
| 18:20.21 | michaelnovakjr_ | jasta: agreed |
| 18:20.32 | michaelnovakjr_ | with that said.... one provider too :) |
| 18:20.45 | jasta | yeah, but i dont think that's really the wrong way to go. it can be looked at as an efficiency :) |
| 18:21.00 | jasta | if they know only one device is coming out every x months, why not optimize engineer's time to support the next-up device? :) |
| 18:21.05 | michaelnovakjr_ | its either that or sprint really has no customers so no rumors spread :) |
| 18:21.20 | jasta | michaelnovakjr_: my work uses sprint :) |
| 18:21.29 | michaelnovakjr_ | i do for now... |
| 18:21.30 | tethridge | I use it. |
| 18:21.35 | jasta | i'm excited for some hacker to come along and integrate that Exchange ActiveSync support "no strings attached" from microsoft |
| 18:21.38 | tethridge | until Feb. when my contract expires |
| 18:21.56 | michaelnovakjr_ | i'm heading to the apple store after work |
| 18:22.02 | tethridge | nice |
| 18:22.10 | tethridge | jasta, I didn't hear about that |
| 18:22.26 | michaelnovakjr_ | jasta, what does "no strings attached" mean? |
| 18:22.37 | tethridge | are you saying that you want somebody to do that or that some developer has already done it |
| 18:23.14 | michaelnovakjr_ | zimbra offers exchange support |
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| 18:23.53 | tethridge | I'm still shocked that gps isn't on the list of features for the g1 |
| 18:23.59 | michaelnovakjr_ | the guys at work have the zimbra exchange hooked into the iPhone |
| 18:24.04 | michaelnovakjr_ | definitely slick |
| 18:25.22 | fariseo | i am not so sure anymore, that this will be an iphone killer :) |
| 18:25.57 | michaelnovakjr_ | let me show you my aim status message: |
| 18:26.04 | jasta | how is it that no one has heard of this? |
| 18:26.07 | jasta | are you all living under rocks or something? |
| 18:26.24 | michaelnovakjr_ | Do you think that every time someone proclaims some new phone to be an âiPhone killerâ Apple engineers tape it up in their lockers, Michael Phelps-style, for motivation? I do. |
| 18:26.24 | mikez5 | tethridge: you mean GPS is not on the list of rumors for G1 |
| 18:26.32 | jasta | Microsoft released a shitton of documentation to the general public on just about every proprietary network protocol they have. |
| 18:26.45 | tethridge | mikez5, yes |
| 18:26.46 | michaelnovakjr_ | jasta, do you have a link? |
| 18:26.50 | jasta | and they added a pledge in all of it that they claim not to enforce patent infringement cases against not-for-profit open source hackers |
| 18:26.53 | jasta | yes, hang on |
| 18:26.57 | tethridge | I remember what jasta is talking about |
| 18:27.04 | jasta | they did this in jan, then in june released exchange docs and activesync |
| 18:27.09 | tethridge | the samba guys were enjoying the docs |
| 18:27.10 | jasta | its FULLY disclosed. i looked at them, they're legit. |
| 18:27.36 | tethridge | so wtf doesn't my evolution work right yet. :-) |
| 18:27.47 | michaelnovakjr_ | eh tethridge what is your mail server :) |
| 18:27.52 | tethridge | exchange |
| 18:28.09 | tethridge | evolution "works" with exchange, but it crashes a lot |
| 18:28.37 | tethridge | I'd just use imap, but I want the shared calendar |
| 18:29.26 | jasta | michaelnovakjr_: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2008/jun08/06-30InteropUpdatePR.mspx -- this, and others. |
| 18:29.33 | jasta | it's well documented on the web, just do some googling yourself |
| 18:29.46 | michaelnovakjr_ | slick, thanks |
| 18:29.50 | jasta | look for their open source pledge or whatever yadayada they use to describe it |
| 18:30.11 | fariseo | is there an android demo somwhere, that i can play with? |
| 18:30.14 | jasta | probably a large part of the reason this hasn't "caught on" is because open source engineers are somewhat jaded by this |
| 18:30.25 | jasta | and are unwilling to trust them until some time passes |
| 18:30.29 | jasta | fariseo: there is only the SDK |
| 18:30.37 | jasta | which is hardly a demo of the real phone, but more a demo of the platform |
| 18:30.38 | romainguy_ | fariseo: you can download the SDK which contains an emulator, at http://code.google.com/android |
| 18:31.02 | SanMehat | jasta: the only person that seems jaded in here is *you* :) |
| 18:31.30 | Dougie187 | SanMehat: if you haven't been around a lot you will learn it comes and goes in cycles |
| 18:31.33 | SanMehat | (notice i said in *here*) |
| 18:31.37 | SanMehat | Dougie187: LOL |
| 18:31.42 | Dougie187 | not just with him. |
| 18:31.54 | romainguy_ | SanMehat: you should go around a lot then |
| 18:32.01 | SanMehat | romainguy_: :) |
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| 18:33.04 | jasta | SanMehat: well, except that my friend wokrs on the samba team and told me all about their reaction. |
| 18:33.30 | jasta | SanMehat: why do you assume so much about what i have done and who i've talked to? |
| 18:34.26 | SanMehat | i'm your stalker |
| 18:35.20 | jasta | well that would hardly be an assumption, then you'd literally know everything about what i've done and who i've talked to :) |
| 18:35.53 | jasta | still, some of the folks on the samba team feel kind of slapped in the face with all this. they painstakingly reversed all this information that is now public knowledge from the source :) |
| 18:36.12 | jasta | their designs are all broken and half assed because of all this really hard work, so now it all just suddenly looks like they can't code and follow a spec :) |
| 18:36.46 | jasta | i can appreciate how this good faith gesture from microsoft can be seen as a mixed blessing from folks in that camp |
| 18:37.03 | jasta | but i'm really excited about the exchange activesync release |
| 18:37.11 | michaelnovakjr_ | yea |
| 18:37.12 | michaelnovakjr_ | me oto |
| 18:37.15 | jasta | Android's in a great position to really implement that! |
| 18:37.19 | jasta | I hope it's on Google's radar! |
| 18:38.34 | michaelnovakjr_ | that would be nice |
| 18:39.25 | jasta | yeah, although i probably will abandon Exchange stuffs once i get Android. still, they could move into a massive new market with really not much work and no financial investment |
| 18:39.36 | jasta | just because android can be structured as a real open source organization |
| 18:39.44 | fariseo | ha, that andorid emulator 'device' looks good :) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2160/2209994789_e1398b804b_o.jpg |
| 18:40.01 | fariseo | nice thin bezel :) |
| 18:40.02 | jasta | it does? :) |
| 18:40.13 | fariseo | to me it does :) |
| 18:40.20 | fariseo | no space wasted :) |
| 18:42.40 | jasta | michaelnovakjr_: i just hope that android's built-in apps are really as composable as they tout the platform to be. it would be awesome if you could just install an activesync service that populated some email app or whatever |
| 18:42.44 | jasta | and it all just worked :) |
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| 18:55.16 | cliff | hi -- is it possible to hook into an intent before other applications? |
| 18:55.30 | cliff | like, i want to process an sms message before it gets handled by the messaging app |
| 18:55.40 | cliff | and potentially drop it |
| 18:56.02 | npelly | cliff: sendOrderedBroadcast() |
| 18:56.33 | cliff | oh interesting okay |
| 18:56.36 | cliff | thanks |
| 18:57.39 | cliff | so that requires the sms service to call that instead of just sendBroadcast right? |
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| 19:09.42 | npelly | cliff: yep, you cant prevent the intent getting to other apps unless it was sent with sendOrderedBroadcast() |
| 19:09.52 | cliff | that's okay |
| 19:10.03 | cliff | now i'm looking into how to define precedence of a receiver |
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| 19:39.54 | tomgibara_ | Can anyone tell me how to fix an INSTALL_PARSE_FAILED_NO_CERTIFICATES error when running an apk via eclipse? |
| 19:41.24 | tomgibara_ | It's accompanied by this logcat line: ERROR/PackageParser(55): Package com.tomgibara.blossom has no certificates at entry res/drawable/flower_lavender.png; ignoring! |
| 19:41.24 | romainguy_ | clean/rebuild your app |
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| 19:42.21 | tomgibara_ | I've tried that, and restarting eclipse and -wipe-data on the emulator |
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| 19:49.09 | tomgibara_ | romainguy_: I've narrowed it down to the inclusion of a specific png in the res/drawable folder |
| 19:49.17 | tomgibara_ | Known bug? |
| 19:50.24 | cliff | be careful of file names |
| 19:50.29 | cliff | they screw me up a lot |
| 19:50.37 | tomgibara_ | The name is fine |
| 19:51.49 | tomgibara_ | okay I retract that :) |
| 19:52.03 | jasta | lol |
| 19:53.01 | tomgibara_ | What's wrong with the name: ls_cloud_out.png |
| 19:53.24 | michaelnovakjr_ | its weird |
| 19:53.27 | michaelnovakjr_ | :) |
| 19:54.30 | jasta | tomgibara_: is there an ls_cloud_out.somethingelse? |
| 19:55.05 | tomgibara_ | jasta: no |
| 19:55.19 | tomgibara_ | Eclipse is reporting no errors |
| 19:55.20 | jasta | well, try building the project manually and read more carefully through the output |
| 19:55.24 | jasta | aapt should be saying something |
| 19:55.36 | jasta | the eclipse plugin is fuckin useless when aapt fails. it doesn't bubble up tons of errors it gets. |
| 19:55.40 | michaelnovakjr_ | yea |
| 19:55.50 | jasta | i always move out to ant/maven to figure out what wen't wrong |
| 19:56.10 | tomgibara_ | jasta: Yes, I'd noticed that, but the error is coming out during verification within the emulator |
| 19:56.40 | tomgibara_ | It implies aapt is working - I'm definitely getting a fresh apk out of it |
| 19:56.52 | michaelnovakjr_ | did you try renaming it? |
| 19:57.01 | tomgibara_ | yes - it works fine then |
| 19:57.29 | michaelnovakjr_ | any other names have two underscores |
| 19:57.41 | tomgibara_ | (broken) ls_cloud_out -> ls_cloud_outx (fixed) |
| 19:57.53 | tomgibara_ | also ls_cloud_in works too |
| 19:57.58 | michaelnovakjr_ | weird |
| 19:58.52 | _avatar | even though you did a clean, and that failed, maybe try to rm -rf your project/'bin/ directory |
| 19:59.02 | _avatar | er, minus the apostrophe |
| 20:00.14 | jasta | i really would try to build it with ant if you can :) |
| 20:00.28 | jasta | i don't trust the eclpse plugin anymore when builds fail |
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| 20:07.31 | cliff | okay i see, intentfilters have a priority value |
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| 20:29.05 | tomgibara_ | jasta: Exactly the same symptoms |
| 20:29.35 | tomgibara_ | is _out reserved for any reason? |
| 20:29.49 | jasta | maybe? |
| 20:31.24 | michaelnovakjr_ | i would have just renamed it and called it a day :) |
| 20:31.36 | tomgibara_ | michaelnovakjr_: pah! :) |
| 20:31.45 | michaelnovakjr_ | its only a resource :) |
| 20:32.07 | tomgibara_ | understanding is extremely precious |
| 20:32.11 | tric | jasta: switch the plugin to verbose build. you should see most output and errors |
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| 20:35.03 | tomgibara_ | tric: No errors - nothing odd whatsoever |
| 20:38.18 | tomgibara_ | wtf - it seems to be specific to a certain set of drawable resources |
| 20:38.30 | tomgibara_ | remove any one of them and there's no problem |
| 20:40.04 | jasta | tric: oh, thats useful |
| 20:41.10 | tomgibara_ | doesn't help in this case - this is totally bizarre and completely replicable on my machine |
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| 20:47.41 | jasta | soooooooo |
| 20:47.43 | tomgibara_ | This is fun... I create a new android project, make seven copies of the default icon.png with names specific to my project - it generates an apk (via ant or eclipse) that won't verify correctly on the emulator. |
| 20:48.03 | jasta | i'm doing some testing with MediaPlayer to see how things have changed/improved |
| 20:48.35 | xavd | tomgibara_: wow this is strange. did you file a bug yet? |
| 20:48.39 | tomgibara_ | jasta: don't forget regressed |
| 20:48.45 | jasta | and it seems that maybe streaming is still pretty fucking broken, by design? |
| 20:49.16 | tomgibara_ | xavd: I'm collecting data to produce the tightest report I can |
| 20:49.25 | xavd | tomgibara_: great |
| 20:56.50 | jasta | so |
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| 20:57.09 | jasta | with the mediaplery, i'm supposed to just call setDataSource(), prepareAsync(), then in onPrepared(...) call start(), right? |
| 20:57.22 | jasta | that is what i gather from the documentation. |
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| 20:58.27 | jasta | right? |
| 20:59.38 | anno^da | (seems to be as easy as audio recording but the docs always seem to be easy and in reality it gets a mess doing it :D) |
| 21:00.26 | jasta | well, i get a buffer update deal that fires but it seems like its really telling me the total download progress of the file |
| 21:00.34 | jasta | and that it's not even attempting to buffer |
| 21:00.47 | jasta | if this is seriously as broken as i think it is, i fucking give up |
| 21:03.35 | jasta | lol, onPrepared gets called after it buffered 25% of the entire file |
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| 21:08.17 | tomgibara_ | xavd: http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=830 |
| 21:09.18 | xavd | tomgibara_: thanks! I'll look at it today |
| 21:10.37 | tomgibara_ | xavd: I think that's the weirdest android bug I've hit yet |
| 21:11.25 | xavd | yes it's very strange |
| 21:11.32 | xavd | how do you copy/rename the files? using eclipse? |
| 21:12.12 | tomgibara_ | Initially when I tripped over it, by saving directly into the directory using GIMP and refreshing |
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| 21:12.26 | tomgibara_ | subsequent to that, yes - using eclipse |
| 21:12.34 | xavd | ok |
| 21:13.16 | tomgibara_ | but I've verified it on two separate projects in eclipse, and I've verified it in a totally seperate ant based project |
| 21:15.53 | xavd | that's interesting. I was wondering if it was eclipse not properly picking up new files. |
| 21:16.43 | xavd | what this means is that it's the code building/signing the package that someone fails to add the manifest entry for one of the point |
| 21:16.49 | xavd | someone = somehow |
| 21:16.59 | tomgibara_ | It doesn't seem to be eclipse since the ant build was a completely independent project created with the activitycreator tool |
| 21:17.24 | xavd | both eclipse and ant use the same tool to build/sign the same apk |
| 21:17.49 | tomgibara_ | I understand that, I was responding to the query about picking up files |
| 21:17.55 | xavd | oh right |
| 21:18.07 | SanMehat | re: |
| 21:18.21 | jasta | *SIGH* |
| 21:18.28 | jasta | punches his fist through a nearby wall |
| 21:19.20 | tomgibara_ | xavd: Incidentally used aapt to list the contents of the apk - it didn't complain |
| 21:19.24 | jasta | MediaPlayer is officially too broken for me to use, even with the local server work-around. |
| 21:19.30 | jasta | in fact, especially with the local server work-around. |
| 21:19.44 | jasta | HTTP streaming is simply not something it can properly do. |
| 21:19.48 | xavd | tomgibara_: aapt does know about the signature |
| 21:20.25 | tomgibara_ | xavd: I did wonder that, since I couldn't see any relevant output |
| 21:21.09 | tomgibara_ | jasta: can you explain in a bit more detail? - streaming is something I was planning to add to my app |
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| 21:23.41 | jasta | i honestly can't deal with this right now |
| 21:23.44 | jasta | i am going to fucking murder someone |
| 21:24.29 | tomgibara_ | Hmm, I'm sorry I asked. |
| 21:24.42 | romainguy_ | maybe he got back to do his real job :) |
| 21:24.49 | tomgibara_ | :) |
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| 21:34.12 | gambler | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZfwuCjbBDk |
| 21:35.47 | f00f- | rofl |
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| 21:50.13 | chomchom | man I wish I could do that sometimes |
| 21:50.31 | chomchom | And then revert it back like in "the sands of time" |
| 21:50.49 | chomchom | Because I wouldn't want to hurt my lovely imac |
| 21:50.58 | chomchom | but sometimes I just want to boot it |
| 21:51.28 | gambler | man is genetically unprepared to deal with the challenges of the modern world |
| 21:51.39 | gambler | 15K years of fight or flight are hard to shake off |
| 21:51.41 | f00f- | i sir, am a gambler |
| 21:52.29 | chomchom | True, at my work they cunningly give out stress squezzies for everyones desk. |
| 21:52.41 | gambler | f00f-, great...lets make some bets |
| 21:52.42 | gambler | :p |
| 21:52.43 | chomchom | They're all ripped to shreds around the office |
| 21:52.45 | anno^da | Why was Google making such a HUGE fuss about their revolutionary breahthrough webkit browser, when it doesnât even support flash. Why is everyone calling this a phone âgeared for mobile internet navigationâ? <- Thats a question we will hear very often by the normal end users. :_) |
| 21:53.26 | f00f- | yeah |
| 21:53.29 | f00f- | agree anno |
| 21:53.40 | f00f- | no flash == epic FeatureFail |
| 21:53.46 | tethridge | well, the iphone doesn't do flash either |
| 21:54.00 | f00f- | well |
| 21:54.04 | tethridge | flash is too resource intensive to do desktop type flash rendering |
| 21:54.09 | anno^da | I dont care about flash but the browser is definetly NOT revolutionary |
| 21:54.17 | romainguy_ | doing Flash correctly on embedded device is not simple |
| 21:54.22 | f00f- | nokia n95 does Flash Lite |
| 21:54.23 | tethridge | window mobile is a "mobile" version of flash that doesn't support all the features of the desktop version |
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| 21:54.35 | romainguy_ | especially doing hardware accelerated Flash |
| 21:54.37 | f00f- | i dont see why iphone or androiddevice dont do it |
| 21:54.43 | red_alert | no flash = brilliant! |
| 21:54.45 | romainguy_ | besides, if Adobe wants to port Flash to Android... |
| 21:54.48 | chomchom | flash isn't the future anyways its an intermediate technology. I'll forgive them on this one. It is a shame though. |
| 21:56.10 | anno^da | romainguy: sure but give me feature or unique point that the end users would prefer in G1 (or any other Android device) about other phones. (the normal end users doesnt care much about the os itself) I'm just looking at it from the marketing perspective now :-) |
| 21:56.44 | romainguy_ | well something I really enjoy on my Android device is how applications work together |
| 21:56.45 | anno^da | chomchom: agree |
| 21:57.04 | romainguy_ | for instance when I visit a Google Gears enabled web site, it can create a shortcut to this web site on the Home screen |
| 21:57.06 | romainguy_ | with a custom icon |
| 21:57.10 | anno^da | romainguy: yeah definetly a point but you have to explain that to the customer. |
| 21:57.18 | red_alert | anno^da: the cheaper price for the same value, probably? |
| 21:57.29 | romainguy_ | anno^da: just like iPhone explained touch feature through ads |
| 21:58.03 | anno^da | Well ok that's a point. |
| 21:58.36 | anno^da | I would highlight the responsive UI |
| 21:58.44 | romainguy_ | switching between apps is really fast indeed |
| 21:59.05 | f00f- | no task manager like symbian? |
| 21:59.12 | romainguy_ | no need for a task manager |
| 21:59.20 | romainguy_ | we're doing a phone, not a computer |
| 21:59.24 | f00f- | so |
| 21:59.24 | romainguy_ | we don't want task or file managers |
| 21:59.27 | romainguy_ | you could write one |
| 21:59.37 | romainguy_ | but that's just exposing the underlying implementation |
| 21:59.38 | f00f- | how do u know what is running. u accidentally switch away from an app. |
| 21:59.44 | f00f- | and u forget what u were doing. |
| 21:59.52 | anno^da | (just thought about this while reading through all the rumours and their comments. From that point you get a total different view. You can hear the needs of normal end users that dont care about the technical background) |
| 21:59.55 | romainguy_ | you just open the app again f00f- |
| 22:00.00 | romainguy_ | and it should be in the state you left it |
| 22:00.10 | f00f- | but how dou know WHAT is running and what is not? |
| 22:00.13 | f00f- | if something is sucking up battery |
| 22:00.17 | f00f- | how will a user know |
| 22:00.56 | romainguy_ | don't write apps that suck the battery :) |
| 22:01.08 | anno^da | f00f-: But the normal user doesnt care about that. |
| 22:01.23 | SanMehat | romainguy_: maybe we should direct f00f- to the app model documentation (ie: services vs bakgrounded activities) |
| 22:01.25 | f00f- | i feel there should be some visual cue in an icon to see if it's runnin |
| 22:01.28 | SanMehat | /s/bak/back |
| 22:01.31 | anno^da | f00f-: he cares about battery life but not about the internals. |
| 22:01.46 | f00f- | SanMehat: perhaps the activity lifecycle diagram needs to be updated, too ;) |
| 22:01.52 | anno^da | :D |
| 22:01.57 | romainguy_ | f00f-: why? why do you want to expose the inner workings on the OS on the user interface? there's no reason to do so, apps should just behave correctly |
| 22:02.00 | SanMehat | f00f-: perhaps :) |
| 22:02.01 | anno^da | (and the search index) |
| 22:02.01 | romainguy_ | that's why we have this lifecycle |
| 22:03.06 | f00f- | but it's true that something can be 'running' while not in the foreground |
| 22:03.14 | romainguy_ | services |
| 22:03.26 | SanMehat | those are services |
| 22:03.35 | SanMehat | romainguy :) |
| 22:03.44 | tomgibara_ | or an activity that's spawned a worker thread |
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| 22:07.27 | chomchom | no I agree with romainguy, there is no need for a user to know of running processes. They only care about the task at hand on a mobile device. |
| 22:08.00 | tomgibara_ | It's true that android provides plenty of useful architecture to help developers do it right - but I think f00f- is right to be concerned, though I don't think adding a task manager is a solution - there may be no solution |
| 22:08.43 | f00f- | perhaps a "recently used apps" list |
| 22:08.46 | f00f- | is all that is needed |
| 22:09.00 | romainguy_ | there is one |
| 22:09.05 | romainguy_ | long press the Home key |
| 22:09.17 | f00f- | haha, one of those magic things, okay |
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| 22:10.13 | tomgibara_ | The fundamental problem is that any platform thus invented, that is sufficiently useful to a programmer lets them mess up |
| 22:10.27 | tomgibara_ | No amount of pestering the user avoids that problem |
| 22:10.46 | chomchom | From a users point of view they may want to know about currently running services |
| 22:11.01 | chomchom | and they can see that from the top notification bar |
| 22:11.06 | chomchom | and the pull down tray |
| 22:11.33 | chomchom | mp3s, calls, motion tracking stuff like that |
| 22:13.07 | tomgibara_ | Is there anything in the framework that allows an application to discover which other applications/services are currently running? |
| 22:13.45 | gambler | ps |
| 22:13.57 | anno^da | another question that comes to my mind will be: "Why the hell doesnt that phone (I know it is about the OS, but the user doesnt care) video recording. My 80 bucks phone does that..." |
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| 22:14.41 | gambler | anno^da, are you talking about the HTC dream or android in general? |
| 22:14.43 | romainguy_ | anno^da: no phone has been officially announced with specs |
| 22:15.07 | anno^da | gambler: in general |
| 22:15.30 | anno^da | romainguy: but it wont be in 1.0 I got confirmed that in the Groups |
| 22:16.30 | Miek | are devices going to be available globally in Q4? |
| 22:16.48 | tomgibara_ | What prompted that question was the idea of very intermittently polling to identify what was running, measuring the battery level and performing a linear regression analysis to estimate the relative power usage of given apps. At least that's useful information for a user who can't tell what's draining the battery. |
| 22:16.58 | anno^da | And I hope that no matter what phone it is that at least one will have a 3.5 mm jack :D |
| 22:17.31 | anno^da | +audio |
| 22:18.12 | gambler | tomgibara_, there u go...there is your android app. Call it "Battery Chew Analyzer" ...but there would def be better ways than thru polling |
| 22:18.51 | tomgibara_ | gambler: polling means that can avoid sucking the battery |
| 22:19.41 | gambler | tomgibara_, isnt there a process accounting kernel interface? |
| 22:21.26 | tomgibara_ | gambler: good luck calling that from an app :) |
| 22:24.26 | gambler | well /proc is there. maybe it is in there somewhere |
| 22:33.58 | gambler | yah that reminds me....they will be releasing the linux kernel sources, so im guessing you probably could do ship binary kernel module(s) that would be reasonably portable |
| 22:34.03 | gambler | interesting to see how that will be handled |
| 22:44.07 | cliff_ | kernel source is already released |
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| 22:52.55 | gambler | no one had to die I hope? |
| 22:54.30 | f00f- | nah |
| 22:54.42 | f00f- | just a few kittens and lolcats |
| 22:56.16 | gambler | not these guys |
| 22:56.26 | gambler | http://vikingkittens.com |
| 22:59.47 | chomchom | what permission do i need to write to the DB in the new SDK? |
| 22:59.51 | jasta | constructs an effigy of MediaPlayer and sets it ablaze |
| 23:00.03 | jasta | chomchom: "the" DB? |
| 23:00.10 | chomchom | a DB |
| 23:00.19 | jasta | to write to *a* db, you need write permission to the flat file that backs it. |
| 23:00.34 | chomchom | ah I see |
| 23:00.38 | jasta | standard filesystem permission is all |
| 23:00.39 | chomchom | cheers |
| 23:00.54 | cliff | whats wrong with mediaplayer? |
| 23:01.32 | jasta | several things. most recently i have discovered: |
| 23:01.36 | jasta | http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=832 |
| 23:01.56 | jasta | it is so wrong it is unusable. |
| 23:02.27 | jasta | the heuristics for choosing when the song can play is also seemingly very bad and unreliable. |
| 23:02.37 | jasta | that is, when the buffer is said to be "full" and playback can begin. |
| 23:02.49 | jasta | it's unpredictable because the API is wrong, and it's unpredictable because the heuristic seems bad :) |
| 23:03.11 | jasta | i also filed issue 831 to ask for documentation on just what the hell its heuristic is |
| 23:04.38 | cliff | okay |
| 23:04.44 | cliff | i've run into trouble with http streams |
| 23:04.59 | jasta | also, did netspeed/netdelay defaults change or something? i am seem to be able to detect a huge difference between network performance within the emulator using MediaPlayer versus my local machine |
| 23:05.10 | jasta | it takes quite a long time to initiate a connection (several seconds) |
| 23:05.28 | cliff | i dont think so but it's easy to check those variables |
| 23:05.33 | f00f- | that's how it was in m3 with java.net |
| 23:06.07 | jasta | i remain dumbfounded at the lack of quality of this class |
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| 23:12.17 | cliff | the API itself seems okay, it's more that the implementation isnt stabilized yet |
| 23:12.42 | jasta | the API desperately needs the ability to be fed from an InputStream |
| 23:14.31 | jasta | any googlers present? |
| 23:14.54 | romainguy_ | jasta: yes |
| 23:15.17 | jasta | can you check to see if there are any instrumented tests for SensorManager? this service requires callbacks to do anything. |
| 23:15.39 | romainguy_ | no, I'm busy right now |
| 23:16.45 | zhobbs | guess no one has figured out dex -> class right? |
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| 23:43.40 | jasta | when do you guys think SENSOR_TRICORDER will be implemented? :) |
| 23:43.48 | jasta | it says "when this sensor is available and enabled" ;) |
| 23:44.03 | jasta | i bet we could get androidguys to blog about it actually |
| 23:48.06 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 23:49.46 | anno^da | jasta: just send in some rumours :D |
| 23:50.06 | anno^da | They will believe all the things you tell them :) |
| 23:51.14 | jasta | the have like ...a lot of sensors they list here :) |
| 23:51.47 | anno^da | :) |
| 23:52.00 | jasta | they actually give you the defined gravitational constants for planets in our solar system |
| 23:52.16 | jasta | and for convenience they include the gravity of Death Star I |
| 23:52.22 | anno^da | :D |
| 23:52.35 | jasta | which is apparently very small |
| 23:53.28 | anno^da | combine them with some top secret sketch and you will get the top story :-) |
| 23:53.33 | jasta | more seriously, they do include calibrations of their light sensor for various states of outdoor weather |
| 23:53.41 | jasta | cloudy, full moon, no mon, overcast, shade, sunlight, sunrise, etc. |
| 23:53.43 | jasta | which is very useful |
| 23:54.10 | anno^da | Yeah thats nice. |
| 23:56.23 | zhobbs | they include the gravitational constants for other planets? |
| 23:56.32 | jasta | zhobbs: oh yes, and the death star, and even "the island" |
| 23:56.45 | jasta | the island has gravity somewhat like mars, which probably makes it pleasant. |
| 23:56.52 | jasta | the death star is in microgravity |
| 23:57.17 | jasta | they do mention that it is Death Star I, however. we don't yet know what Daeth Star II will be like. |
| 23:58.41 | jasta | perhaps they will invent artificial gravity. it's all just speculation at this point. |
| 23:59.30 | anno^da | gn8 guys |
| 23:59.34 | jasta | night |
