| 00:03.48 | ttuttle | ping? |
| 00:08.40 | *** join/#android andy-on-da-bus (n=stadler@69.36.227.130) |
| 00:08.57 | ttuttle | andy-on-da-bus: heh |
| 00:09.07 | ttuttle | andy-on-da-bus: WWAN++ |
| 00:09.32 | Dougie187 | lol. |
| 00:33.35 | fadden | adb -e shell getprop | grep jni --> [ro.kernel.android.checkjni]: [1] |
| 00:33.58 | ttuttle | fadden: Remind me, is this a good thing? |
| 00:34.17 | fadden | Some would say. |
| 00:36.04 | fadden | The trick is figuring out how to turn it off. |
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| 02:16.07 | gambler | hmmm i cant use my expect script to automatically create opaque cryptographic keys...who knew keytool would be this smart |
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| 02:17.33 | Jakob_the_liar | http://www.imgdumper.com/file/img/2008/jan/13//thumb/3mhrz4pjj0jjzkpvlxqxiuob2.jpg |
| 02:18.41 | gambler | she could lose a little weight |
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| 03:29.44 | ani1 | anybody know of a way to get a CDMA version of android for the HTC Titan? i can boot it from SD but its gsm :( |
| 03:31.10 | merck | ani1: CDMA version? |
| 03:31.53 | merck | ani1: as i known, CDMA stack does not inclued in Android. |
| 03:33.15 | f00f- | write your own cdma fabric |
| 03:33.48 | f00f- | romainguy_: what happened to the XML layout changes? |
| 03:34.18 | f00f- | showSetButton removed from DatePicker and TimePicker? |
| 03:36.59 | f00f- | and what happened to layout_toRight for RelativeLayout? |
| 03:37.44 | f00f- | toRightOf |
| 03:37.54 | f00f- | the changes overview is incomplete |
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| 04:08.13 | muthu | yo |
| 04:08.37 | muthu | iphone costs 36k in india and its still locked!! |
| 04:09.00 | muthu | you pay like $800 for a locked phone |
| 04:09.18 | muthu | SHIT |
| 04:09.31 | muthu | hope android phones don't do this |
| 04:12.54 | f00f- | sup ramadoss |
| 04:12.58 | f00f- | yeah |
| 04:13.03 | f00f- | not worth it |
| 04:13.10 | f00f- | dude, have you done any 0.9 migrations? |
| 04:13.28 | f00f- | their changelogs suck |
| 04:16.01 | f00f- | onOptionsItemSelected ???? |
| 04:16.04 | f00f- | new signature? |
| 04:17.11 | f00f- | well, what is Menu.Item now? |
| 04:17.12 | muthu | hey f00f- |
| 04:17.12 | f00f- | MenuItem ? |
| 04:17.25 | muthu | yes |
| 04:17.35 | muthu | look at the api diff report |
| 04:17.45 | f00f- | their diff report is mainly unreadable |
| 04:17.49 | muthu | hehe |
| 04:17.59 | f00f- | unless it comes in a one page summary? |
| 04:18.05 | f00f- | seems like a lot of clicks are needed |
| 04:18.12 | muthu | yeah |
| 04:18.17 | muthu | lot of changes though |
| 04:18.23 | muthu | between m5 and 0.9 |
| 04:18.48 | f00f- | indeed |
| 04:18.53 | f00f- | you done porting yours? |
| 04:19.22 | muthu | yup |
| 04:19.34 | f00f- | 118 errors to go :) |
| 04:19.37 | muthu | woah |
| 04:19.48 | muthu | man, you should have some huge code base |
| 04:20.05 | f00f- | actually |
| 04:20.10 | f00f- | it's surprisingly small |
| 04:20.25 | f00f- | when jasta was saying his stuff is 20k lines |
| 04:20.28 | f00f- | i was like... shit |
| 04:20.38 | f00f- | i only have lik 8000 lines (at the time)... my app must suck |
| 04:20.43 | muthu | haha |
| 04:21.52 | muthu | it would be fun to find out a commercial application making a lot of money that has only a few lines of code |
| 04:22.06 | f00f- | haha |
| 04:22.13 | f00f- | there are a couple in the iPhone app store :) |
| 04:22.14 | muthu | i would be bummed if someone says, hey i make 100k with my 100 lines of code! |
| 04:22.30 | f00f- | i'm sure there are some 4-line for loop patents |
| 04:22.39 | muthu | yeah |
| 04:22.57 | muthu | am sure there are apps less than 100 lines of code making money |
| 04:23.01 | f00f- | man i have to get rid of crap like this: startActivityForResult(intent, 1337); |
| 04:23.24 | muthu | its painful, but pretty straight forward |
| 04:24.03 | f00f- | ugh, i forgot i have my own class called MenuItem |
| 04:24.10 | muthu | i logged one bug, long time back in the issue tracker |
| 04:24.18 | muthu | and now that widget is gone (zoom slider) |
| 04:24.20 | muthu | hehe |
| 04:24.24 | f00f- | that sux |
| 04:33.10 | muthu | f00f-: getting ready for lunch he |
| 04:38.27 | f00f- | ah |
| 04:38.35 | f00f- | i could go for some good indian food |
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| 04:38.52 | f00f- | we'd be jammin with some gulab jamun! |
| 04:39.33 | muthu | friday night party with gulab jamun :) |
| 04:39.48 | muthu | oh shit.. |
| 04:39.52 | muthu | f00f-: lol |
| 04:40.00 | muthu | s/lunch/launch |
| 04:40.06 | f00f- | LOL |
| 04:40.31 | f00f- | what is up with the changes |
| 04:40.40 | f00f- | first PixelConverter wasnt good enough |
| 04:40.42 | muthu | its disabled |
| 04:40.44 | f00f- | now PixelCalculator isnt |
| 04:41.23 | muthu | you need to use projections |
| 04:41.23 | muthu | Projection.fromPixels .toPixels |
| 04:42.55 | f00f- | ok |
| 04:42.56 | f00f- | thanks |
| 04:43.01 | f00f- | so there is now only onDraw(Canvas) |
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| 05:13.55 | f00f- | 0 errors! |
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| 05:14.01 | f00f- | emulator seems faster, too |
| 05:14.58 | f00f- | E/OSNetworkSystem( 265): unknown socket error -1 |
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| 05:20.12 | romainguy_ | re |
| 05:25.33 | muthu | re |
| 05:28.06 | umdk1d4 | lol wow blast from the past |
| 05:28.13 | umdk1d4 | wasnt "re" from bbs days? |
| 05:28.31 | romainguy_ | I don't know |
| 05:28.34 | romainguy_ | we use it on french channels |
| 05:28.59 | BBHoss | anyone know if there is a way to grab the current location from the browser? |
| 05:29.22 | umdk1d4 | http://www.netlingo.com/lookup.cfm?term=RE --> "Hello Again" |
| 05:30.20 | muthu | for me, re is re-entry ;) |
| 05:31.48 | muthu | android cook book is a great idea |
| 05:32.02 | umdk1d4 | have you seen the oreilley cookbooks? |
| 05:32.06 | umdk1d4 | they are goldmines :) |
| 05:32.09 | muthu | yup |
| 05:32.18 | umdk1d4 | we probably couldnt compete on that level |
| 05:32.18 | muthu | any cookbook, i buy |
| 05:32.41 | muthu | am sure, oreily is already on it |
| 05:32.45 | umdk1d4 | mayyyyybe |
| 05:32.53 | umdk1d4 | the apis are still in flux ;) |
| 05:33.02 | muthu | yeah |
| 05:38.13 | muthu | http://androidguys.com/2008/08/23/android-set-to-deliver-on-multiple-fronts/#comment-1946 |
| 05:38.30 | muthu | which one appeals to you? |
| 05:39.32 | umdk1d4 | Geeks and their Tweaks + Anti-iPhone ;) |
| 05:42.49 | f00f- | nice! .apk down to 400k! |
| 05:43.04 | f00f- | removed a lot of cruft and round1 code |
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| 07:14.43 | Acsia | good morning |
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| 07:56.00 | Acsia | gm |
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| 09:01.15 | anno^da | gm guys |
| 09:04.31 | Acsia | gm, |
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| 10:15.39 | muthu | re yo |
| 10:20.23 | Acsia | yo |
| 10:29.38 | anno^da | I got a question about onSaveInstanceState(). I'm doing some work in a bacbkground thread started from my activity. Now a call comes in while the background thread is running, onSaveInstanceState() gets called. After hanging up onRestart / onResume gets called. But what do you need onRestoreInstanceState for and why is the whole state of the UI saved (I havent set some parameter flag for my activity) and why is the background thread doing everyt |
| 10:29.53 | anno^da | (I mean the background thread is interacting with my activity) |
| 10:30.41 | anno^da | It is nice to see that the state gets restored but I dont really now why. (just like to understand it). After going so much times through the docs I dont get the point there. |
| 10:30.41 | Acsia | is the background thread a service? |
| 10:33.28 | anno^da | Well I'm starting a backrgound thread in my activity and from that point I'm binding to a service yeah. In this background thread I'm getting some pictures and set them to Image Adapter thats connected with a ListView in the activity. After every received picture I'm sending a message to my activities handler and let him notify my adapter to update. |
| 10:34.05 | anno^da | When I'm getting a call (while the downloading takes place and only 3 pictures are in the List View from 20) I can accept it and hang up |
| 10:34.22 | anno^da | After haning up all 20 pictures are in the ListView. |
| 10:35.10 | Acsia | well that s probably because you are not calling onFreeze |
| 10:35.14 | Acsia | well the new name |
| 10:35.23 | Acsia | in the sense that your app is still running |
| 10:35.31 | anno^da | yeah I know what you mean. |
| 10:35.44 | anno^da | but onSaveInstanceState (onFreeze) gets called |
| 10:35.52 | Acsia | I think it will be problematic if you have several app running |
| 10:36.00 | Acsia | then the background thread will be stale |
| 10:36.36 | anno^da | yeah thats why it would be interesting to understand the whole system and really I've tried several times but I'm getting confused now again :-) |
| 10:38.28 | anno^da | I'm just wondering why no onRestoreInstanceState is called |
| 10:38.53 | Acsia | I can not find the gif about app life cycle |
| 10:39.40 | Acsia | ok I have it |
| 10:40.22 | Acsia | have yougone throught this: |
| 10:40.23 | Acsia | http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/app/Activity.html#ActivityLifecycle |
| 10:40.36 | Acsia | it looks thought that it s not updated for 0.9 |
| 10:41.24 | Acsia | I have not used onRestoreInstance and the like so can not really comment tbh |
| 10:43.55 | anno^da | yeah I know it. In M5 I understood the whole thing a bit more but now I'm confused. |
| 10:44.43 | anno^da | In addition now you have that added flag http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/R.attr.html#alwaysRetainTaskState |
| 10:44.59 | anno^da | Which makes it even more complicated to understand |
| 10:47.23 | Acsia | so you are saying that you have the call to onSaveinstance |
| 10:47.26 | Acsia | but not the restore? |
| 10:50.01 | anno^da | Yeah I can see from my logs that onSav.. is called but after hanhing up no onRestore is called |
| 10:50.52 | Acsia | maybe the onSav is called by the onPause while the restore is for the onCreate |
| 10:51.12 | Acsia | oh yes |
| 10:51.22 | Acsia | if you look at the life cycle diagram |
| 10:51.38 | Acsia | you have the onPause() which would call the onSav |
| 10:51.53 | Acsia | if other applications need memory then it kills your activity |
| 10:51.58 | Acsia | and we return onCreate |
| 10:52.07 | Acsia | while otherwise, it is onResume that is called |
| 10:52.15 | anno^da | From what I see now it goes the following way: |
| 10:52.17 | Acsia | and I red the onrestore is called by the onCreate |
| 10:52.28 | Acsia | you should try |
| 10:52.44 | Acsia | get a call, open up several apps, and check again |
| 10:52.55 | Acsia | or stop your app |
| 10:52.58 | Acsia | and check again |
| 10:54.06 | anno^da | onCreate -> onStart // RUNNING APP with background thread running // Now incoming call -> onSaveInstanceState -> onStop gets called because more memory for call is needed -> // hanging up// -> onRestart gets called. (and no onRestoreInstanceState because onStop got called) |
| 10:54.31 | Acsia | why would onStop get called? |
| 10:54.35 | Acsia | can you see it in the logs? |
| 10:54.41 | anno^da | yeah |
| 10:54.45 | anno^da | I see it in the logs |
| 10:55.04 | Acsia | well |
| 10:55.19 | Acsia | I would say onStop -> onRestart() - > on Start |
| 10:55.25 | Acsia | from the diagram |
| 10:55.51 | Acsia | I don t think that 1 call would require enought memory for your app to get killed |
| 10:56.06 | Acsia | it s like any other app, you would need with 5 apps to see somethign |
| 10:56.22 | anno^da | well it could be beacuse I'm downloading big pictures |
| 10:56.52 | anno^da | Well I can see that onStop gets called so it is definetly the point :) |
| 10:57.22 | Acsia | well from the diagram it says that onStop is called when your activity is not visible (you receive the call) |
| 10:57.40 | Acsia | onRestart is called when your app is visible again |
| 10:57.45 | Acsia | it has not been killed in between |
| 10:57.57 | Acsia | it will get kille if the sys need memory |
| 11:00.36 | muthu | you might want to check if oncreate is called |
| 11:01.19 | muthu | the restore state from there |
| 11:03.28 | anno^da | http://paste.pocoo.org/show/83087/ |
| 11:03.46 | anno^da | thats what I see in my logs |
| 11:04.14 | anno^da | From my point of view onRestoreInstanceState is left because onStop got called. |
| 11:04.58 | Acsia | onPause -> onStop gets called because more memory for call is needed |
| 11:05.06 | Acsia | this is incorrect imo |
| 11:05.32 | Acsia | onStop gets called when your activity is not visible anymore |
| 11:05.51 | Acsia | it deos not kill your app |
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| 11:07.10 | anno^da | ok yeah. you're right. |
| 11:07.36 | anno^da | But no onRestoreIn.. beacause of onStop seems right ? |
| 11:07.57 | Acsia | onRestore is called by the onCreate |
| 11:08.28 | Acsia | well you need to see the onStop and onRestart from a 'user' perspective |
| 11:08.54 | Acsia | like if you are playing a game, you would stop the game at that specific position in the game |
| 11:09.00 | Acsia | and restart it when the call is finished |
| 11:09.08 | Acsia | you did not kill the game while u were speaking |
| 11:09.25 | Acsia | it s not the onStop as in stoping the activity from a dev pers |
| 11:09.29 | Acsia | that s how I c it |
| 11:10.04 | anno^da | ok I got your point |
| 11:11.17 | anno^da | And now it would be interesting how this: http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/R.attr.html#alwaysRetainTaskState fits into the picture. I wasn't able to get it to work. |
| 11:11.56 | anno^da | I'm always coming back to my initial screen after going to the home screen and restarting the app. |
| 11:12.15 | anno^da | No matter if I set that parameter for my activity to be true or not. |
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| 13:28.35 | anno^da | I've got two LinearLayouts nestes in one LinearLayout. The two inner elements have "android:gravity="center"" why arent they centered vertically ? |
| 13:29.44 | anno^da | In the end it looks like this: http://img.skitch.com/20080823-1t88bwxu9h2ix2ayb8y3pkrfjy.jpg (the two colors are the 2 inner Linear Layouts) |
| 13:32.37 | anno^da | ok got it. |
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| 13:58.04 | muthu | re er |
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| 15:02.58 | SanMehat | ugh |
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| 15:14.15 | ttuttle | SanMehat: greetings |
| 15:18.05 | SanMehat | hey man |
| 15:18.07 | SanMehat | how goes? |
| 15:18.10 | ttuttle | Awesome. |
| 15:18.31 | ttuttle | just bought groceries, and is enjoying the benefits of a RIAA-free, native-Ethernet-speed campus filesharing network ;-) |
| 15:19.14 | SanMehat | haha |
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| 15:39.19 | davidw | ttuttle, anyone trading android source code on the filesharing network? |
| 15:39.27 | ttuttle | davidw: Nah, not yet. |
| 15:39.39 | ttuttle | davidw: (And no, I don't have any proprietary google code to share. I left it at work.) |
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| 17:29.55 | Acsia | how can I connect to a listening socket on the emulator? |
| 17:29.59 | Acsia | anybody know? |
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| 17:41.47 | xtreme | anybody there? |
| 17:50.11 | xtreme | can somebody refer me to Basic tutorial to write programs using Android SDK |
| 17:51.04 | Dougie187 | just go to the web site. |
| 17:51.12 | Dougie187 | there are demos and stuff on there. |
| 17:51.19 | Dougie187 | helloandroid.com has some too i think |
| 17:52.08 | xtreme | Dougie187: Hi |
| 17:52.14 | Dougie187 | hi |
| 17:52.26 | xtreme | Dougie187: i just wanted to make sure that somebody out here lol |
| 17:52.48 | Dougie187 | heh |
| 17:52.54 | Dougie187 | its the weekend so its hard to find people in here |
| 17:53.00 | Dougie187 | maybe later tonight it will be a bit more full |
| 17:53.04 | Dougie187 | but for now its going to be fairly dead |
| 17:53.17 | muthu | hii |
| 17:53.26 | xtreme | Dougie187: i thought Weekends are full |
| 17:53.32 | Dougie187 | eh. |
| 17:53.35 | Miek | boo! |
| 17:53.39 | xtreme | muthu: Hello |
| 17:53.43 | xtreme | Miek: Hello |
| 17:53.57 | xtreme | Did anybody here write cool Android App? |
| 17:54.05 | muthu | we write android apps |
| 17:54.11 | muthu | cool or not |
| 17:54.36 | muthu | that's something the users need to decide |
| 17:54.38 | xtreme | muthu : send me link to at your apps |
| 17:54.53 | muthu | hmm |
| 17:55.01 | muthu | unfortunately most of them are closed as of now |
| 17:55.10 | xtreme | muthu: no problem |
| 17:55.25 | muthu | there's tons here: |
| 17:55.27 | muthu | anddev.org |
| 17:55.30 | muthu | helloandroid.com |
| 17:55.59 | muthu | code.google.com might also have a lot |
| 17:56.06 | xtreme | muthu: thanks |
| 17:56.21 | muthu | xtreme: what you work on? |
| 17:56.32 | xtreme | muthu: what are your expectations on Android |
| 17:56.43 | muthu | i have big expectations |
| 17:56.49 | xtreme | muthu: Cool |
| 17:56.52 | muthu | like android completely taking over the mobile market |
| 17:56.55 | Dougie187 | lol thats a rather odd question. |
| 17:57.01 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 17:57.08 | xtreme | Dougie187: Iphone killer? |
| 17:57.12 | Dougie187 | muthu: you know that expectation is comepletely unrealistic. |
| 17:57.19 | muthu | really? |
| 17:57.23 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 17:57.28 | Dougie187 | 100% unrealistic. |
| 17:57.34 | muthu | you can be 100% sure |
| 17:57.38 | muthu | can't |
| 17:57.39 | Dougie187 | yes. |
| 17:57.42 | muthu | no |
| 17:57.43 | xtreme | Dougie187: what do you think? |
| 17:58.15 | Dougie187 | i dont even think google expects it to completely take over the mobile market. |
| 17:58.24 | Dougie187 | they just want to give a good alternative to the other choices. |
| 17:58.37 | muthu | google wants to dominate mobile market |
| 17:59.04 | xtreme | i think they do advertise business on mobile phones :-) |
| 17:59.07 | Dougie187 | sure they want to. but they don't expect to. |
| 17:59.27 | xtreme | Dougie187: do you write android apps? |
| 17:59.49 | Dougie187 | not yet, but i plan to. |
| 18:00.06 | Dougie187 | muthu: keep in mind. there are 3 other options out there that already have pretty large followings. |
| 18:00.15 | muthu | which 3? |
| 18:00.21 | Dougie187 | rim winmo and apple. |
| 18:00.29 | muthu | WHAT? |
| 18:00.37 | muthu | where's symbian? |
| 18:00.45 | Dougie187 | how many symbian phones are there? |
| 18:01.04 | muthu | definitely more than apple and rim |
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| 18:01.59 | Dougie187 | i dont think if you talked to a lot of people you would get a feeling that there is a large following for symbian |
| 18:02.13 | Dougie187 | i bet you would have a hard time finding someone who was a business man who even knew what it was actually. |
| 18:02.57 | muthu | what does nokia run? |
| 18:03.04 | xtreme | Dougie187: i agree |
| 18:03.14 | Dougie187 | muthu: symbian, but how many people know that? |
| 18:03.26 | Dougie187 | also, how many carriers carry nokia phones. |
| 18:03.44 | muthu | nokia has 40% market share |
| 18:03.45 | Dougie187 | granted, i enjoy nokia phones a lot. but i dont even think sprint and verizon have 1. |
| 18:03.45 | xtreme | they don't have market in USA |
| 18:03.53 | Dougie187 | yeah like nothing in US. |
| 18:03.58 | muthu | worldwide |
| 18:04.19 | Dougie187 | my only point. is you can't expect it to completely dominate the market. |
| 18:04.34 | Dougie187 | hell, id be willing to bet you not as many people even know what it is as you would hope. |
| 18:04.48 | muthu | i expect android to completely dominate the mobile market worldwide |
| 18:04.58 | Dougie187 | and that is a completely unrealistic expectation. |
| 18:05.02 | muthu | if |
| 18:05.11 | muthu | they can execute it right |
| 18:05.22 | Dougie187 | what time frame are you looking at? |
| 18:05.28 | Dougie187 | 1 year? or 10 years? something like that? |
| 18:05.40 | muthu | now is the beginning |
| 18:05.45 | muthu | and there's a long way to go |
| 18:05.49 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 18:06.05 | Dougie187 | so you are saying that you expect android to dominate the mobile market at some point in the future? |
| 18:06.22 | muthu | yes |
| 18:06.29 | Dougie187 | thats ridiculous. |
| 18:07.07 | xtreme | alright |
| 18:07.13 | xtreme | let's talk about programming |
| 18:07.15 | xtreme | :-) |
| 18:07.28 | muthu | xtreme: we talk anything but android here ;) |
| 18:07.30 | Dougie187 | xtreme: i expect android to be a decent-great mobile os that has a lot of promise. granted that is based on how they finish it up. |
| 18:07.44 | Dougie187 | we tend to psychoanalyze ourselves here a lot too. |
| 18:08.18 | xtreme | so, it's not to talk about android programming? |
| 18:08.24 | Dougie187 | depends. |
| 18:08.37 | Dougie187 | about a week ago someone was getting a java tutorial in here and a lot of people got irritated. |
| 18:08.52 | xtreme | Dougie187:gocha |
| 18:08.55 | Dougie187 | i would say this is used for help. |
| 18:09.04 | Dougie187 | so try to go through the tutorials and stuff. then come here if you have questions. |
| 18:09.18 | Dougie187 | but again, that is my personally opinion. |
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| 18:09.57 | xtreme | Dougie187: thanks |
| 18:10.05 | Dougie187 | np |
| 18:10.13 | anno^da | re |
| 18:10.40 | muthu | gre |
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| 18:28.50 | Acsia | O man |
| 18:29.01 | anno^da | someone here that worked with overlays ? (FrameLayout) |
| 18:29.06 | Acsia | eclipse 3.4 is rubish |
| 18:30.03 | anno^da | :) |
| 18:30.11 | anno^da | I'm guessing it crashed again ;) |
| 18:30.18 | Acsia | ;) |
| 18:30.23 | Acsia | yes |
| 18:30.56 | anno^da | oh well 3.3 crashed even more |
| 18:31.14 | anno^da | on osx 3.4 seems more stable but you have to touch it very cerafully :D |
| 18:31.34 | anno^da | not clicking to often if it's doing something :) |
| 18:36.29 | f00f- | check your JVM |
| 18:37.08 | f00f- | i run 3.4 for weeks without restarting it |
| 18:37.10 | f00f- | but that's on windows |
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| 18:51.25 | anno^da | oh well support for osx is not really great so I dont mind if java things are crashing. |
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| 19:11.02 | jaccus | hello everyone, this is probably a common question but why do I get 'Could not find HelloAndroid.apk!' trying to run my app? |
| 19:12.25 | Dougie187 | probably because it can't find it. |
| 19:12.31 | Dougie187 | its probably in the wrong place or something |
| 19:12.56 | jaccus | I was doing everything according to google tutorial with eclipse ide |
| 19:13.03 | jaccus | there is no such file |
| 19:13.21 | Dougie187 | which tutorial were you going through? |
| 19:13.23 | jaccus | but how to create it with ide? |
| 19:13.41 | jaccus | simple HelloAndroid |
| 19:13.43 | jaccus | http://code.google.com/android/intro/hello-android.html#create |
| 19:14.24 | Dougie187 | and how far did you get through it? |
| 19:14.52 | jaccus | That's it â you're done! Click the Run button, and the Android Emulator should start. Once it's booted up your application will appear. When all is said and done, you should see something like this: |
| 19:16.52 | Dougie187 | did you just copy and paste everything? |
| 19:17.28 | jaccus | I just followed the instructions, there's nothing to copy in this tutorial... |
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| 19:28.42 | Dougie187 | ionno what to tell you. maybe ask someone who has gone through that one before. |
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| 19:46.33 | anno^da | I got a problem. I'm binding to a service. Starting in the onBind.. a new thread so do some work with the service. After the work is done I'm sending from the worker thread a message to my main thread to unbind the service. Now I'm getting "service not registered all the time". Someone an idea ? |
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| 19:52.18 | umdk1d4 | hmm 08-23 19:52:00.423: WARN/ResourceType(749): Requesting resource 0x1010208 failed because it is complex |
| 20:02.51 | f00f- | hah |
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| 20:23.58 | anno^da | I'm totally confused now. I'm binding to a service in onCreate, after that onServiceConnected gets called and in that method I'm unbinding. After that I'm starting a background thread and call a method in the service with the binding which should be null. And it is working. onDisconnect gets called as well. *crazy* |
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| 20:30.49 | jaccus | how do I simply create an .apk file using Eclipse IDE? |
| 20:43.12 | anno^da | righ click |
| 20:43.15 | anno^da | on your project |
| 20:43.30 | anno^da | Android Tools |
| 20:43.37 | anno^da | Export Unsigned Package |
| 20:43.49 | anno^da | in order to give that package away you have to sign it |
| 20:43.57 | anno^da | signing is explained in the docs |
| 20:44.03 | anno^da | @ jaccus |
| 20:45.15 | jaccus | anno^da: failed to export ... *.apk doesn't exist |
| 20:45.28 | jaccus | the missing step is creating .apk file |
| 20:48.06 | anno^da | well after you run your programm on the emulator one time it should work |
| 20:48.44 | jaccus | but to run it .apk file should be sent to the emulator |
| 20:50.10 | anno^da | well eclipse does send that to the emulator |
| 20:50.17 | anno^da | you dont need to do that yourself |
| 20:50.25 | jaccus | but shouldn't eclipse create that file? |
| 20:50.41 | jaccus | it just compiles my project so I get some .class files and others |
| 20:50.47 | jaccus | but .apk is missing |
| 20:51.19 | jaccus | .apk is like .jar - it should be created after compilation (at least that's how I understand that) |
| 20:51.30 | anno^da | how did you compile it ? Righclicking on your project and run as android application ? |
| 20:52.13 | anno^da | thats the way you shoud do that. After that the emulator gets started and you can test your app |
| 20:52.31 | jaccus | I ran it exactly like that: http://code.google.com/android/intro/hello-android.html#run |
| 20:53.08 | anno^da | does the emulator start ? |
| 20:53.21 | jaccus | ,--8<- |
| 20:53.21 | jaccus | |[2008-08-23 22:52:32 - HelloAndroid] Android Launch! |
| 20:53.21 | jaccus | |[2008-08-23 22:52:32 - HelloAndroid] adb is running normally. |
| 20:53.21 | jaccus | `-->8- |
| 20:53.22 | anno^da | when doing it that way ? |
| 20:53.22 | jaccus | [2008-08-23 22:52:32 - HelloAndroid] Could not find HelloAndroid.apk! |
| 20:53.32 | jaccus | -sorry for scissors- |
| 20:54.21 | jasta | yawn |
| 20:55.03 | jaccus | and no, emulator does not start |
| 20:55.53 | anno^da | ok |
| 20:56.13 | anno^da | have you setup the location of the SDK ? |
| 20:56.18 | jaccus | yup |
| 20:56.31 | anno^da | in the eclipse prefs |
| 20:57.02 | jaccus | everything according to google tutorial |
| 20:57.05 | jaccus | yup |
| 20:57.22 | jasta | jaccus: try launching it from the command line |
| 20:57.39 | jasta | its probably a permission thing if you're on Linux (stupid SDK distributes with zip, which doesn't preserve permissions properly) |
| 20:57.49 | jaccus | I'm Vista right now |
| 20:58.05 | jaccus | downloading linux SDK on my VM right now thought |
| 20:58.14 | anno^da | http://groups.google.com/group/android-beginners/browse_thread/thread/3490081098a43481/3a9293c7552e0d55?lnk=gst&q=HelloAndroid.apk#3a9293c7552e0d55 |
| 20:58.15 | jasta | well still, try running the emulator manually |
| 20:58.30 | jaccus | I can run emulator without any problem |
| 20:58.37 | anno^da | that should solve it |
| 20:58.41 | jaccus | I just don't have .apk file from my project |
| 20:58.49 | jaccus | so what can I run? ;) |
| 20:59.04 | anno^da | yeah read the thread |
| 21:00.49 | jasta | why do i get all these unbind failed messages, i wonder? |
| 21:00.53 | jasta | W/ActivityManager( 56): Unbind failed: could not find connection for android.os.BinderProxy@43524fa8 |
| 21:01.49 | jasta | i guess i'm supposed to unbind in onStop()? |
| 21:02.31 | anno^da | unbinding from your service ? |
| 21:02.35 | jasta | yeah |
| 21:02.41 | jasta | currently i bind/unbind in oncreate/ondestroy |
| 21:02.42 | anno^da | I'm getting the same |
| 21:02.55 | jasta | i thought that was the correct behaviour, actually |
| 21:03.16 | jasta | because when the user leaves my activity i still want the service connected and the UI state updating. or maybe i don't, actually. |
| 21:03.49 | anno^da | http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/c820944a82be7d4a <- thats what I got several minutes ago and dont really understand. |
| 21:04.26 | jasta | uhh |
| 21:04.32 | jasta | why would you unbindService() in onServiceConnected? |
| 21:04.57 | jasta | ServiceConnection is tied to the bound and unbound state of the service. |
| 21:04.57 | anno^da | just testing |
| 21:05.21 | jasta | the reason it probably works is because the binder permits abuse. |
| 21:05.33 | anno^da | Look at the second case why does that happen. |
| 21:05.35 | jasta | probably kernel panic the damn thing if you keep doing it ;P |
| 21:06.05 | jasta | i honestly don't know |
| 21:06.41 | anno^da | It is sooo wired. :) |
| 21:07.24 | jasta | what pisses me off is that there's not a really good example of like "ok, here's really how you should manage an activity that critically depends on a service." |
| 21:07.49 | jasta | instead of letting us just kludge together our own buggy mess every time |
| 21:08.30 | anno^da | the crazy thing is if I'm calling "stopSelf()" from the background thread and after that unbinding is working. |
| 21:08.49 | jasta | well, stopSelf() is kind of interesting. it's like a flag basically. |
| 21:09.05 | anno^da | Yeah even onDestroy doesnt get called |
| 21:09.10 | jasta | a service CAN'T stop/destroy until all connected endpoints (activities in this case) are disconnected. |
| 21:09.22 | anno^da | Thats right. |
| 21:09.28 | jasta | or rather, BIND_AUTO_CREATE makes this behaviour happen. |
| 21:09.34 | jasta | and its the proper behaviour, if you think about it. |
| 21:09.47 | jasta | you don't want a service being finished to also disconnect. then you couldn't tell the difference between success or error easily |
| 21:10.03 | anno^da | But binding and unbinding must work :) |
| 21:10.16 | anno^da | And I dont have a clue why it doesnt. :/ |
| 21:10.45 | jasta | what |
| 21:10.57 | jasta | what's sos tupid is that all their examples have this paradigm where you have to click to start/bind services |
| 21:11.06 | jasta | which is a totally unrealistic demonstration |
| 21:11.21 | jasta | everyone else needs to bind/unbind through the activity lifecycle |
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| 21:12.23 | anno^da | well I need clicking :) |
| 21:12.31 | anno^da | one click :> |
| 21:12.35 | jasta | what? |
| 21:13.02 | jasta | you shouldn't ever have a case where you want to start the service connection in response to a click on an existing activity |
| 21:13.22 | jasta | because the state of the button must obviously depend on the state of the service, which you can't know until you connect. |
| 21:13.33 | jasta | a "do work" button, for example, would be "cancel work" is work was already being performed. |
| 21:13.55 | anno^da | hmm well |
| 21:14.14 | anno^da | I'm starting the service from a click and after that the user can leave my application. |
| 21:14.27 | anno^da | The uploading is done in the background. |
| 21:14.56 | jasta | ahh, i see it. well yes, if your service can do multiple pieces of work at a time with no ability to cancel, then that makes sense... |
| 21:15.20 | anno^da | yeah it is just one way. No possibility to cancel |
| 21:15.55 | anno^da | But I aggree with you your case is much more common for the usage of a service. |
| 21:16.53 | jasta | anno^da: by the way, i just started tinkering to move my service connection to onresume and disconnect to onpause |
| 21:17.13 | jasta | onServiceDisconnected() isn't called afte runbind. which i think is probably correct behaviour. helps distinguish error vs expected behaviour |
| 21:18.32 | jasta | i created a simple little ServiceActivity abstraction to test/solidify this behaviour in my whole application |
| 21:18.36 | anno^da | onServiceDisconnected() isn't called afte runbind <- ? But from the docs it should be called or not ? |
| 21:18.43 | jasta | it's just a convenient wrapper which "properly" binds an activity to a service always |
| 21:18.54 | jasta | and it makes it easy to abort the activity gracefully if something goes wrong |
| 21:19.07 | jasta | anno^da: i don't know, but it's clearly not. and i actually would expect it not to. |
| 21:22.22 | anno^da | I got another question that I ran into yesterday. The same setup mentioned in the link above. Activty bound to a service doing some work in the backrgound thread using the service. |
| 21:22.23 | jasta | it wouldn't be helpful for it it do to that. |
| 21:23.47 | anno^da | Now the user clicks the back button. How do I nicely stop the thread without running into some exceptions like "service not registered". |
| 21:24.11 | jasta | well that's the whole point of what i was trying to tell you earlier :) |
| 21:24.18 | anno^da | Yeah :D |
| 21:24.21 | jasta | it's much better to bind an activity to a service permanently. |
| 21:24.25 | anno^da | I thought that :D |
| 21:24.28 | jasta | so long as the activity is visible, the service should be there. |
| 21:25.03 | jasta | so that way, onStop() in the activity could use the active service connection to terminate a worker thread with some API |
| 21:25.17 | jasta | IService#stopWork(workId) |
| 21:25.19 | jasta | something like that |
| 21:25.49 | jasta | however, i don't think that's the right beahviour for your app anyway |
| 21:25.53 | anno^da | But when the user clicks the back button the Worker thread (backgrond thread) should end as well and how is that done ? |
| 21:26.00 | anno^da | Or do it get something totally wrong |
| 21:26.02 | jasta | the user should be able to click "upload", then press back and i think it should still be uploading |
| 21:26.31 | jasta | anno^da: your service obviously needs more symmetry. imagine if you wanted to create an activity which monitored the progress of all your worker threads in the service |
| 21:26.35 | jasta | and possibly let the user cancel them |
| 21:26.43 | ttuttle | Anyone at Google around? |
| 21:26.44 | jasta | would your API be sufficiently flexible to make that possible? |
| 21:27.34 | anno^da | Yeah it could be possible but I have to think about that. At the moment it is a mess to handle that :> |
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| 21:29.51 | anno^da | But now I'm recognizing what I should and should not do in a service. :) |
| 21:31.16 | jasta | by the way, if you really intend for the background work to terminate when the user leaves an activity, maybe you don't really want a service at all? |
| 21:31.46 | anno^da | that's what I recognized now. :) |
| 21:31.54 | jasta | the point of a service is be able to do some work totally independent of an activity. like my music player uses a service to playback audio. the user could back out completely of the app that launched the playback and they expect playback to continue. |
| 21:32.12 | jasta | if that's not what they expect, then a background thread that you manage directly with your activity lifecycle may well be the most appropriate solution |
| 21:32.15 | anno^da | I need the service for othe things and there I really need it. But in that case your right it is tottaly non sense. |
| 21:32.28 | jasta | the other thing to remember is that the user should always have some way to control what's happening in a service |
| 21:32.40 | jasta | if they user wanted to cancel some long-running background task, they must be able to |
| 21:32.56 | jasta | my system implements lots of services, and i have to give the user some way to manage all of them |
| 21:33.02 | anno^da | Yeah ok. |
| 21:33.40 | jasta | i'm moving through my project these days trying to update stuff i do to make it textbook correct :) |
| 21:33.45 | anno^da | I'm getting very slowly into the right direction. Well it is my first real application so I'm running into this errors but it's ok. |
| 21:33.49 | jasta | so i'm tinkering with the minutia of android dev a lot hehe |
| 21:36.16 | anno^da | by the way on monday the threading book will arrive |
| 21:36.17 | anno^da | :) |
| 21:36.48 | jasta | good, this is an important topic to learn correctly to write good GUI programs. |
| 21:41.30 | anno^da | because I'm getting the job done but I've recognized that I'm having so much problems designing it the write way. So a good example is the leaving of threads at the moment, My design makes it so difficult to do that. |
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| 21:46.04 | anno^da | lol I meant the "right" way :) |
| 21:46.11 | anno^da | getting tired now... :D |
| 22:02.13 | jasta | i hate when code really, really seems correct...but isn't ;) |
| 22:02.15 | jasta | somewhere hehe |
| 22:08.46 | anno^da | :) |
| 22:10.27 | anno^da | oh it is great you opened my eyes *g Now I can nicely close my threads and dont abuse the service in some situations any more |
| 22:11.07 | jasta | do note that "closing" threads is not as simple as most beginners assume. |
| 22:11.25 | anno^da | yeah :) Well my simple threads are simple :D |
| 22:11.28 | jasta | threads can't just be destroyed on a whim. |
| 22:11.59 | jasta | for example, are your threads doing some type of blocking I/O? |
| 22:12.17 | jasta | and how are you stopping them? |
| 22:13.32 | anno^da | Yeah thats a point in my case the I/O takes 10ms so you dont really recognize that. I let the thread finish its IO and he is just running out then |
| 22:13.48 | jasta | how do you know it takes 10ms? |
| 22:14.00 | anno^da | Well thats right :) |
| 22:14.05 | jasta | what? |
| 22:15.17 | anno^da | Hmm well I try to to explain it. My thread is just checking account data and after that some parsing and giving back if the account is valid or not. |
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| 22:15.58 | anno^da | the checking (post a POST method) is instant |
| 22:16.09 | jasta | so its accessing the external network? |
| 22:16.52 | jasta | what would happen if, say, the network was extremely slow where the was at, to the point that it basically didn't work but android hadn't yet given up and flagged that it's totally gone. |
| 22:16.57 | jasta | ? |
| 22:17.20 | jasta | the connect and I/O would probably take several minutes, up to whatever timeout you have set (probably none, and i think the default is several minutes) |
| 22:17.45 | jasta | and so if some time in that process you wanted to cancel the thread...how would you? |
| 22:18.07 | jasta | it's blocked in some I/O somewhere. if you just wait for it to die, you could be waiting a really long time in actually a pretty common case. |
| 22:18.29 | anno^da | Ok :). You're right and I dont know how I would handle that. :-) |
| 22:18.33 | jasta | that's why i said thread cancellation must be well understood else it isn't possible. |
| 22:18.44 | jasta | let me show you something i wrote to help folks with this problem |
| 22:19.31 | jasta | by the way, on a mobile phone, the safe assumption is that the network is either unavailable or EXTREMELY slow. design for those cases intrinsically. |
| 22:19.43 | jasta | http://devtcg.blogspot.com/2008/07/interruptible-io-example-using.html |
| 22:19.52 | jasta | Read this. And then download the sample code at the bottom. |
| 22:20.01 | anno^da | oh great |
| 22:20.03 | anno^da | thanks |
| 22:20.21 | jasta | This represents an excellent general purpose strategy to handling blocking socket threads. The example is using HttpClient, but the concept is general. |
| 22:22.58 | anno^da | I will compare it to what I did. I did some handling for the blocked IO but the timeout is default. :-) |
| 22:24.20 | jasta | what do you mean "handling for blocked IO"? |
| 22:24.42 | jasta | btw, the bug that i discuss in the sample code in HttpClient#execute no longer exists on 0.9r1. |
| 22:29.09 | anno^da | Well with handling I meant handling the case that the timeout gets reached and no data connection is available |
| 22:30.09 | jasta | anno^da: that's not what my example concerns itself with. |
| 22:30.37 | jasta | in my example, stopDownload() will immeidately trigger the release of any blocking I/O calls, so that the thread can react quickly and die. |
| 22:31.26 | jasta | this is a vastly superior and more general approach to cancellation of blocking threads (when sockets are involved) |
| 22:31.34 | jasta | and it's not any more complex. |
| 22:32.42 | jasta | lol, some dude plugged his book in my blog's comments. i took a look at his so-called similar example and it's fucking wrong |
| 22:32.44 | anno^da | Ok thats great I dont have any clue how to handle that :-). So I will read that tomorrow. |
| 22:32.56 | anno^da | But I have to got to bed now. It was a looong day :) |
| 22:36.44 | anno^da | good night guys. |
| 22:36.48 | jasta | night |
| 22:53.03 | *** join/#android duey (n=Nick@203.96.223.40) |
| 22:57.26 | jaccus | how do I run my app in the emulator from eclipse? 'Run' starts the emulator with plain android text only. |
| 22:59.46 | jasta | plain android text? |
| 22:59.53 | jasta | is it...booting the emulator? |
| 23:01.01 | Dougie187 | hes trying to run the "Hello Android" example app |
| 23:01.12 | Dougie187 | and keeps getting a ".apk not found" error. |
| 23:01.20 | Dougie187 | though i dont know what gives him the error.. |
| 23:01.42 | jaccus | that problem was solved Dougie187 |
| 23:01.57 | Dougie187 | ohh it got solved. |
| 23:02.05 | Dougie187 | now what are you trying to do? |
| 23:02.11 | jaccus | I had j2ee jdk and both jre/jdk v5 and v6 |
| 23:02.22 | jaccus | so lets say a little mess with versions |
| 23:03.23 | jaccus | right now I just don't know how can I see my app on emulator, I got the apk file and emulator is visible |
| 23:03.45 | Dougie187 | what app are you trying to run? |
| 23:03.53 | Dougie187 | an example? or one you wrote? |
| 23:04.07 | jaccus | both hello android and notepad |
| 23:04.33 | Dougie187 | and when you hit run in eclipse the android emulator gets loaded right? |
| 23:04.39 | jaccus | yup |
| 23:04.44 | jaccus | just nothing else happens |
| 23:05.36 | jaccus | I'm guessing "hello android" is what I should see :-) |
| 23:05.46 | Dougie187 | i would assume so. |
| 23:05.51 | Dougie187 | since thats what the picture says |
| 23:07.17 | jaccus | also in tutorial there's black console screen emulator, I get red cell phone emulator |
| 23:07.30 | jaccus | not sure why ;) |
| 23:08.14 | Dougie187 | well maybe they changed that in the new sdk and didnt update the example. |
| 23:09.58 | jaccus | however, tv.setText("Hello, Android"); setContentView(tv); should result in this text displayed 'somewhere' |
| 23:11.04 | _avatar | did you check the logcat outpu? |
| 23:11.06 | _avatar | output |
| 23:11.33 | jaccus | oh wait, how long it takes for app to run? |
| 23:11.42 | jasta | jaccus: uhm, setContentView may not be what you think it is. |
| 23:11.59 | jasta | you should not be using it in a hello world, for example :) |
| 23:12.21 | jasta | i mean, not like that. use setContentView(int) in onCreate(). and don't call it any othre place. |
| 23:12.24 | jaccus | um lmao, it looks like I closed the emulator before it started |
| 23:12.46 | jaccus | so it takes ~1 min to run this, true? |
| 23:14.11 | _avatar | run what? are you asking if it takes a minute to boot the emulator? probably. |
| 23:14.32 | jaccus | yes, emulator |
| 23:14.49 | jasta | that would depend quite a lot on your computer, obviously |
| 23:14.58 | Dougie187 | mine takes quite a while to run. |
| 23:15.06 | Dougie187 | ;( |
| 23:15.20 | jaccus | c2d 2.2ghz & 2gb ram should be fine |
| 23:15.30 | _avatar | a minute seems reasonable, then |
| 23:16.22 | jaccus | then the problem I occured was my impatience |
| 23:16.33 | jaccus | solved now ^_^ |
| 23:23.39 | jasta | hmm, something must have happened with Last.fm recently |
| 23:23.44 | jasta | all my album covers are really low quality now |
| 23:24.32 | Dougie187 | thats too bad. |
| 23:25.21 | jasta | they released a new version of their protocol, maybe theyre punishing apps that don't upgrade |
| 23:25.27 | jasta | which would be lame, but whatever |
| 23:26.06 | _avatar | jasta: if that's the case, you can always try to grab album art from amazon.com's mp3 store. they have pretty high quality images. |
| 23:26.35 | jasta | actually, i can't. amazon's terms explicitly mention that no mobile application can use any of their web services |
| 23:26.42 | jasta | mentions* |
| 23:26.59 | _avatar | that's pretty crappy |
| 23:27.01 | ttuttle | Also, it's generally a bad idea to screen-scrape stuff without asking, as it can vanish or the company can get annoyed. |
| 23:27.27 | jasta | ttuttle: i don't think he meant to screen scrape. amazon has lots of web services for this type of thing. |
| 23:27.33 | ttuttle | jasta: Ah. |
| 23:27.38 | _avatar | right, i meant the web services |
| 23:27.44 | ttuttle | wonders what problem they would have with mobile apps :- |
| 23:27.45 | _avatar | i didn't know there were explicit restrictions on mobile devices tho |
| 23:27.47 | jasta | but still, you definitely can't use them from mobile apps |
| 23:27.58 | ttuttle | That's sorta lame. |
| 23:28.06 | jasta | ttuttle: they are clearly positioning themselves to one day be able to charge into the mobile space and monopolize the hell out of their services there |
| 23:28.13 | jasta | but they so far have done absolutely nothing. |
| 23:28.43 | jasta | but it makes no sense. either shit or get off the pot :) |
| 23:28.59 | _avatar | i'm sure they will eventually |
| 23:29.16 | jasta | yeah, probably |
| 23:29.29 | jasta | but last.fm's data used to be good, i will just look into their new api and see what's up here |
| 23:29.32 | jasta | i should update to the new api any damn way |
| 23:32.12 | jasta | oh, lol, they fixed a bug. before, small, medium, and large cover art all pointed to the same large image |
| 23:32.18 | jasta | i apparently had a bug where i just snagged the first one |
| 23:32.28 | jasta | but now that they fixed their bug, i need to fix mine to grab large :) |
| 23:32.42 | ttuttle | jasta: Oh, that's a good feature for them to add ;-) |
| 23:33.55 | jasta | i love last.fm so freaking much |
| 23:34.02 | ttuttle | has never really gotten in to using it. |
| 23:34.08 | ttuttle | (I play my music with mplayer on the command line.) |
| 23:34.20 | jasta | you've seen my Android app, right? |
| 23:34.24 | ttuttle | jasta: Five? Yeah. |
| 23:34.33 | ttuttle | I haven't run it, but I looked at the site. |
| 23:34.35 | jasta | it will/does integrate Last.fm heavily :P |
| 23:34.40 | ttuttle | nice |
| 23:34.47 | ttuttle | I'll use it then, once I get an Androidphone. |
| 23:35.25 | jasta | once i get my footing back with Five and Android 0.9r1, i am going to start working on a feature which automatically checks Last.fm for concerts posted by your favorite artists |
| 23:35.37 | ttuttle | jasta: Ooh, that's cool. |
| 23:35.38 | jasta | and throws up an android notification letting you place it on yoru calendar |
| 23:35.51 | ttuttle | jasta: /me drools over the awesome level of integration. |
| 23:35.54 | jasta | Last.fm has all this data for you. It has concert stuff, and it also of course can easily figure out what your favorite artists are. |
| 23:36.18 | jasta | The best part is: the user does nothing. Android will figure out where they are, Last.fm will figure out what they like, etc. |
| 23:36.23 | ttuttle | jasta: Heh. |
| 23:36.25 | jasta | So they just use the app to play their music and that feature becomes available. |
| 23:36.27 | ttuttle | jasta: Terrifying automatic. |
| 23:38.33 | jasta | also, this is really important to me because i hope this type of thing can drive concert ticket sales |
| 23:38.58 | jasta | strongly encourages concert tickets over album purchases :) |
| 23:39.32 | jasta | every time i want an album, i look up the record label that produced it and if they don't give a high enough portion to the artists, i steal the album. |
| 23:39.37 | jasta | then make a point to go to shows :) |
| 23:39.55 | ttuttle | jasta++ |
| 23:41.45 | jasta | music is really important to me. helping to pay for executives' third vacation home is not. |
