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| 00:55.47 | SanMehat | hello |
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| 08:46.09 | anno^da_ | romainguy: are you here? |
| 08:46.31 | anno^da_ | Now the "Spiegel" (one of the biggest magazines in germany) takes up the septembre rumours :D |
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| 08:52.38 | spykid | anno^da_: and as expected it's bad: "spiegelt das Filmchen nur die zunehmende Verstimmung innerhalb der Open Handset Alliance wider." |
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| 08:54.49 | anno^da_ | Yeah I know. :) |
| 08:55.01 | anno^da_ | But that false rumours could be stopped. ;) |
| 08:56.39 | muthu | spe is too close |
| 08:56.41 | muthu | sep |
| 08:59.45 | anno^da_ | It is but the rumours will go on |
| 09:00.10 | anno^da_ | Google News, the last 3 news regarding Android pick up the sep rumours :D |
| 09:01.00 | anno^da_ | It is funny to follow the copy and paste journalism |
| 09:03.58 | anno^da_ | http://www.ne-na.de/A556D3/NENA/NENA_NEU.nsf/0/EABD81A289926C9BC125749F003C62B5?OpenDocument <- lol that came out on the 8th of august for all the germans here. |
| 09:04.36 | anno^da_ | "âGoogle wird ein Endgerät auf den Markt bringen, das als persönlicher Informations- und Kommunikationsmanager fungiert." <- hihi |
| 09:05.01 | anno^da_ | I'm loving the analysts :P |
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| 09:06.17 | spykid | alex2308: And did you have it in your hands already? |
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| 09:07.27 | anno^da_ | he is working for the Telekom not TMo |
| 09:08.05 | spykid | Ok - too bad |
| 09:08.57 | spykid | And even if he had seen it, he had to sign a NDA :D |
| 09:09.48 | anno^da_ | Well you wont see much at the Telekom |
| 09:10.09 | spykid | But at TMo you might see someting |
| 09:10.22 | anno^da_ | Yeah at TMo you can see sth. |
| 09:10.30 | cutmasta | :) |
| 09:10.56 | spykid | It will be my first time with TMo... :D |
| 09:11.00 | anno^da_ | depends where if he works in Darmstadt or Bonn. In Darmstadt it will be very unlikely for him seeing the devuce. |
| 09:11.34 | anno^da_ | Hmm well I will buy just the device and keep waiting for more interesting plans. |
| 09:11.50 | spykid | That might be an option too |
| 09:12.19 | anno^da_ | I think that it takes perhaps 1 year and we will see the data flatrates at congstar and the other prepaid providers. |
| 09:12.34 | anno^da_ | (ok Congstar == TMo :D) |
| 09:12.56 | spykid | Didn't I mention moobiair? T-Mobile reseller... |
| 09:13.06 | anno^da_ | ah yeah you mentioned that |
| 09:13.40 | anno^da_ | is there a 2 years contract ? |
| 09:13.45 | spykid | No |
| 09:14.18 | anno^da_ | ok 6 months right ? |
| 09:14.23 | spykid | Seems so |
| 09:14.35 | alex2308 | spykid ? |
| 09:14.47 | alex2308 | err, yes i signed a NDA |
| 09:15.05 | muthu | oct is what everyone says |
| 09:15.44 | alex2308 | anno^da_ i work in darmstadt, but the division im in is so high inside the enterprise structure that i have access to everything |
| 09:15.58 | alex2308 | my id card even lets me enter every building |
| 09:16.22 | anno^da_ | well ok :) |
| 09:16.33 | alex2308 | i can even enter deutsche post buildings ^^ |
| 09:16.51 | tric | me too, at least some of them ,-) |
| 09:17.07 | alex2308 | the public ones? ;) |
| 09:18.15 | tric | exactly ;) |
| 09:18.35 | muthu | do they have android phones :) |
| 09:19.31 | anno^da_ | Ah thats why alex2308 is so silent in the last time |
| 09:19.33 | anno^da_ | ;) |
| 09:20.00 | alex2308 | ;) |
| 09:20.52 | alex2308 | no, its just a lot of work |
| 09:20.58 | alex2308 | and im looking for a new job atm |
| 09:22.18 | tric | hmm, im bind to a service in activity.oncreate() and the service calls a callback method of the activity right on binding. i get "activity not running" errors when i try to do any window/dialog stuff in the callback. |
| 09:23.00 | tric | so where is the best place to bind to the service. doc says "do not use" onPostCreate() though i think that might work in my case? |
| 09:24.26 | muthu | onresume? |
| 09:25.21 | anno^da_ | strange I'm binding as well in onCreate |
| 09:27.44 | alex2308 | i think its a bit buggy there |
| 09:28.16 | alex2308 | when i tried registering services i realized different behaviour even when not changing my code |
| 09:28.52 | tric | anno: i had not problems until i called the callback method right after registering the callback right after binding? |
| 09:30.12 | tric | alex: yeah, i got that error first a while back ago, but only rarely. but atm i get it almost every second binding. looks like some kind of race condition to me. |
| 09:45.19 | anno^da_ | spykid: "Sollte es stimmen, würde die Android-Plattform das Licht der Welt mehr als ein halbes Jahr früher als bisher gedacht erblicken." <- haha. |
| 09:45.50 | anno^da_ | Q4 08 - September = ? :P haha man man man Journalisten und rechnen :P |
| 09:46.53 | anno^da_ | (oh back to english :)) |
| 09:48.57 | spykid | anno^da_: they were refering to the rumored delay to Q2 2009, that's how they got to 6 months ;) |
| 09:50.00 | anno^da_ | ah well ok :) |
| 09:50.17 | anno^da_ | They are taking rumours to build up new rumours :D |
| 09:50.36 | anno^da_ | A web 2.0 mashup. |
| 09:51.06 | spykid | anno^da_: I think I should ask someone to use this headline: "Android delayed! Android teams laughs its ass off about rumors and now they are unable to work" :D |
| 09:52.20 | anno^da_ | Well give an interview to the magazines as a "ANDROID DEVELOPER" and you will be quoted ;) |
| 09:52.35 | anno^da_ | no matter if it is right or wrong :) |
| 09:52.58 | anno^da_ | And if you made it in one magazin it gets spread all over the internet blogs and news sites |
| 09:53.39 | spykid | Na, that's not right! Your words have to fit in their agenda ;) |
| 09:54.00 | anno^da_ | Ok :D. Then you have to play with the latest rumours. :) |
| 09:54.10 | spykid | Yep |
| 09:54.22 | anno^da_ | So take in consideration that it is delayed and now it could be september. |
| 09:54.51 | anno^da_ | So lets create another rumour. :) |
| 09:55.43 | anno^da_ | and we have very trusted sources. |
| 09:56.23 | spykid | Isn't alex2308 very trustworthy :D |
| 09:57.19 | anno^da_ | Well yeah I would say he is. |
| 09:57.50 | anno^da_ | So alex2308 tell us something new about the android system :) |
| 10:00.03 | anno^da_ | And lets add some blurry videos from a HTC device. Perhaps we take the same video and just cut the scenes in a different order and change the colors a little bit. |
| 10:00.19 | spykid | anno^da_: He has signed a NDA and he may not even be allowed to tell us how much he has to pay if he discloses something :D |
| 10:01.21 | muthu | is there an android appstore being setup? |
| 10:01.35 | anno^da_ | there will be some store. |
| 10:01.56 | anno^da_ | But rumours could tell you sth different muthu |
| 10:01.58 | anno^da_ | ;) |
| 10:02.13 | muthu | haha |
| 10:02.34 | muthu | hope android comes out soon to break those rumors ;) |
| 10:04.47 | spykid | anno^da_: Augsburg? |
| 10:05.47 | anno^da_ | not really :) |
| 10:06.20 | spykid | anno^da_: At the moment? |
| 10:06.30 | spykid | Or Aachen? |
| 10:06.51 | anno^da_ | Not Aachen and not Augsburg :P |
| 10:07.15 | anno^da_ | From my IP adress you wont see sth. :) |
| 10:10.02 | spykid | Ok |
| 10:17.19 | alex2308 | muthu tmo has some kind of appstore, for android, too ofc |
| 10:17.38 | muthu | looks like it |
| 10:17.50 | alex2308 | cant tell more :p |
| 10:18.10 | muthu | tmo appstore is all in the news |
| 10:18.18 | muthu | very exciting |
| 10:19.19 | anno^da_ | haha alex2308 said: "An app store will be available in September by T-Mobile" - and now spread it :P |
| 10:19.51 | alex2308 | http://users.skynet.be/fa018426/Georgia.jpg |
| 10:20.29 | muthu | lol |
| 10:20.37 | cutmasta | lol |
| 10:21.01 | muthu | haha, love the first response :) |
| 10:33.36 | alex2308 | anyone doing MS updates? |
| 10:33.47 | alex2308 | download is extremely slow |
| 10:33.53 | alex2308 | +here |
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| 12:11.53 | plusminus_ | can we populate ContextMenu on MapViews too? (ListView works fine ;/ ) |
| 12:13.22 | inZane-_ | hey plusminus_ |
| 12:13.31 | plusminus_ | hi |
| 12:13.39 | inZane-_ | mapviews already have this zoom thing as the contextmenu |
| 12:14.08 | plusminus_ | ok .. then how to override it with the built in ContextMenu? |
| 12:14.28 | plusminus_ | until now I launched a SubActivity in: |
| 12:14.36 | inZane-_ | never tried it |
| 12:14.42 | plusminus_ | setOnLongPressListener(new OnLongPressListener() { public boolean onLongPress(...) { |
| 12:14.48 | plusminus_ | / here |
| 12:15.07 | plusminus_ | which worked fine, but I decided to do it with system-internals |
| 12:16.57 | inZane-_ | do you have an overlay? |
| 12:17.04 | plusminus_ | yes |
| 12:17.17 | inZane-_ | maybe you have to add the contextmenu to the overlay |
| 12:31.53 | plusminus_ | contextmenus can be applied only to views not overlay |
| 12:32.15 | inZane-_ | check your prvmsg :-) |
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| 12:44.12 | alex2308 | global thermonuclear war |
| 12:44.14 | alex2308 | ops |
| 12:51.27 | plusminus_ | run run run |
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| 13:02.35 | alex2308 | cool, i got a black htc dream |
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| 13:10.12 | spykid | alex2308: You are breaking your NDA :D |
| 13:12.01 | alex2308 | maybe i was jk to see what happens ^^ |
| 13:12.48 | spykid | And btw I'm sure it's name won't be 'Dream' ;) |
| 13:13.05 | alex2308 | why not? |
| 13:13.22 | plusminus_ | everybody knows it. I would stay at "Dream" |
| 13:13.24 | plusminus_ | but maybe they call it "minusplus" |
| 13:13.26 | plusminus_ | ... |
| 13:13.43 | spykid | Doppeltplusgut |
| 13:13.54 | tethridge | or "Trey's Bad Ass Android Phone" |
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| 13:14.16 | alex2308 | "ePenis" |
| 13:14.32 | alex2308 | as a competitor for the "iPhone" ePenis |
| 13:14.46 | plusminus_ | or "HamClub" because it will be big as a baby... |
| 13:14.52 | tethridge | for when you don't have to compensate for anything... |
| 13:15.09 | alex2308 | true, its really big |
| 13:16.58 | spykid | It won't be called 'Dream' because it would be too easy to spot it on FCC |
| 13:18.01 | alex2308 | maybe its listed delayed |
| 13:19.09 | spykid | If there doesn't appear a 'Dream' in the next 4 weeks at the FCC it won't be called 'Dream' ;) |
| 13:20.22 | alex2308 | why not search for htc? |
| 13:21.43 | plusminus_ | aw crap i want a contexmenu on a MapView o_O |
| 13:23.56 | alex2308 | aw crap, i want more money $_s |
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| 13:32.32 | alex2308 | what are popular eventhandlers? where are typical hooks? |
| 13:32.38 | alex2308 | (windows environment) |
| 13:33.07 | alex2308 | i know keyboard and mouse, but im not sure why apps hook them (except keyloggers) |
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| 14:57.09 | alex2308 | what info is public on the speech module? i see a speech class? is it for speech recognition? |
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| 14:58.56 | gambler | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWeD5KXx5WI |
| 14:59.33 | gambler | 1:10 |
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| 15:13.10 | anno^da_ | re |
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| 15:30.48 | jasta | yawn |
| 15:35.07 | alex2308 | gphone finally killing sms/mms |
| 15:35.20 | tethridge | huh? |
| 15:35.31 | jasta | ignore him, he's just a troll |
| 15:35.36 | alex2308 | just random thoughts |
| 15:38.47 | alex2308 | with gtalk preinstalled on every phone |
| 15:38.52 | alex2308 | (and gtalk is free) |
| 15:39.02 | alex2308 | why would you send a sms/mms, when you could send a IM |
| 15:39.20 | tethridge | have you guys seen the break down of how much it costs to send sms messages? |
| 15:39.34 | tethridge | assuming you don't have an unlimited plan |
| 15:39.37 | alex2308 | never sent one in my whole life |
| 15:39.58 | tethridge | you know the thing that keeps me from sending them? |
| 15:40.10 | tethridge | my craptastic samsung phone |
| 15:40.15 | alex2308 | i think its 99cent per mms here |
| 15:40.45 | tethridge | it's something like 20 cents a message here, but they just started billing for incoming and outgoing |
| 15:41.08 | tethridge | so they charge 40 cent per message if you look at the sender and receivers fees. |
| 15:41.35 | tethridge | I read a break down on the cost of the bandwidth and it was ridiculous |
| 15:41.38 | alex2308 | not fair, what if i dont want mms from you? you charge me then? |
| 15:43.25 | tethridge | http://gthing.net/the-true-price-of-sms-messages |
| 15:43.33 | tethridge | interesting read if you have a few minutes |
| 15:44.27 | tethridge | Costs of transferring 2,560 MP3s via my ISP: $1 via SMS: $61,356,851.20 |
| 15:44.32 | alex2308 | we all know this |
| 15:44.36 | alex2308 | we aint stupid |
| 15:44.46 | alex2308 | (maybe except me) |
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| 15:47.42 | jasta | teehee, playing hooky today |
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| 16:24.16 | romainguy | re |
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| 16:26.25 | anno^da_ | wb |
| 16:28.21 | jasta | morning romain |
| 16:29.04 | SanMehat | romainguy: morning |
| 16:29.06 | SanMehat | mornin jasta |
| 16:29.39 | romainguy_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:32.32 | al2308 | *up* what info is public on the speech module? i see a speech class? is it for speech recognition? |
| 16:32.43 | al2308 | is there any voip application for android? |
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| 16:44.04 | anno^da_ | re |
| 16:44.16 | anno^da_ | oh I love the instable osx sometimes :> |
| 16:44.46 | al2308 | may i quote this? my friend says osx is more stable than vista |
| 16:45.02 | al2308 | i managed to crash osx 3 times - and i dont even have a mac myself! |
| 16:48.27 | anno^da_ | well the mbp here has a uptime now for 24 days counted till the last updates |
| 16:48.48 | anno^da_ | but it is definetly not that stable than my ubuntu machine is |
| 16:50.33 | anno^da_ | But the point is that I love working with it. It just feels a lot better than Vista. But that's a personal view. And I hate the Vista layout and the windows app design. It is just ugly. But no bashing it is just my opinion and everyone should use the system that fits best his needs. |
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| 16:51.23 | jasta | anno^da_: i think that the reason folks enter this holy war is because more often than not, you are not permitted to use the system that best fits your needs. |
| 16:51.59 | jasta | most corporate environments, for example, even when they do let you use Linux, it's some ancient version of RHEL. Unanimously hated by everyone, Windows, Mac, and Linux users alike :) |
| 16:53.25 | al2308 | anno^da_: thats just what i say - use whatever you like. current OSs are all very advanced |
| 16:53.37 | al2308 | you can use mac/linux/win/whatever here |
| 16:53.53 | al2308 | most use windows, i think mac is at 4% (which is high) |
| 16:54.47 | jasta | market share is a silly thing to quote. it is clearly the overwhelming favorite of business and typical home users, but in certain communities you find staggering use of Linux and Mac by contrast. |
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| 16:55.42 | al2308 | wouldnt say that is it "the clearly the overwhelming favorite of business and typical home users" |
| 16:55.45 | jasta | For example, in the open source community, it is quite reliable to assume that you are dealing with someone who primarily works with -- or at least is familiar with -- Linux. |
| 16:55.59 | al2308 | me and my friends dislike osx and apple, it is clearly my least fav |
| 16:56.10 | al2308 | jasta true |
| 16:56.37 | jasta | I was referring to Windows being the overwhelming favorite, obviously. |
| 16:56.54 | al2308 | ops, my fault, did get it wrong then |
| 16:57.03 | jasta | But again, market share is an average over all segments, but that doesn't tell you anything you can actually use. |
| 16:57.20 | jasta | Beacuse there are communities all over that have wildly different percentages they could quote. |
| 16:58.16 | jasta | I find it rare, even, to interact with people who use Windows for development. In my world, OS X and Linux are the majority. |
| 16:59.04 | al2308 | windows and linux are in mine |
| 16:59.11 | al2308 | mac is really really rare |
| 16:59.19 | *** join/#android OpnSrc1 (i=harisha1@gateway/tor/x-63679d8577841b2b) |
| 16:59.29 | anno^da_ | "dislike osx and apple" ... and have never used one :) |
| 16:59.31 | jasta | All I wanted to stress was that quoting market share doesn't tell you anything interesting. None of us are particularly concerned with what the typical home PC user does. |
| 16:59.31 | romainguy_ | only Macs in mine :) |
| 16:59.49 | anno^da_ | romainguy: !! |
| 16:59.50 | anno^da_ | :) |
| 17:00.12 | al2308 | but i know some guys who switched to mac (bc its trendy and ofc bc of the design) after a while they started emulating windows, then dual boot, then switched back to windows. but those were average users, no programmers/it-specialists |
| 17:00.46 | anno^da_ | yeah thats ok |
| 17:02.46 | *** join/#android pandora-- (n=pandora@cpe-76-170-18-42.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 17:03.19 | jasta | My observations have led me to the conclusion that as ability increases, so too does the distain for Windows. There is a breaking point for most that causes them to leave it for an alternative. |
| 17:03.23 | jasta | ;) |
| 17:03.51 | al2308 | depends, i have a lot of very skilled friends who prefer windows |
| 17:04.00 | al2308 | skilled developers |
| 17:04.16 | al2308 | in security you go to linux/unix/bsd |
| 17:04.19 | jasta | I'm sure you do. |
| 17:05.18 | anno^da_ | Skilled :) what does skilled mean ... It is all about what you do with the system. And what you prefer. |
| 17:05.45 | al2308 | uhm, everything? |
| 17:06.06 | *** join/#android tecnmmag (n=tecnmmag@206.251.250.217) |
| 17:06.16 | anno^da_ | A lot people use windows because they got it installed on their first pc from the discounter. Learned it at school and had to use it at work. |
| 17:06.30 | al2308 | full ack |
| 17:07.11 | anno^da_ | They just dont know about any other system. For a normal user Winows == operating system. (the only one) |
| 17:07.31 | anno^da_ | and talking about documents == .doc |
| 17:07.50 | SanMehat | and web == .htm |
| 17:07.52 | SanMehat | :) |
| 17:07.54 | anno^da_ | :D |
| 17:08.11 | al2308 | and search == google |
| 17:08.27 | anno^da_ | well yeah |
| 17:08.28 | SanMehat | for sure |
| 17:08.30 | SanMehat | duh |
| 17:08.33 | jasta | please do not use that pseudomathematical gibberish. |
| 17:08.44 | SanMehat | dael with it |
| 17:08.48 | SanMehat | /s/dael/deal |
| 17:09.02 | jasta | if you think "is" means "equals", then i hate you :) |
| 17:09.11 | anno^da_ | haha jasta :) |
| 17:09.35 | SanMehat | lol. |
| 17:09.42 | anno^da_ | I dont care about that even if you hate me for that. ;) |
| 17:09.47 | tethridge | have you guys already discussed the appleinsider story? |
| 17:09.53 | SanMehat | try #apple |
| 17:10.04 | tethridge | it's an article on android |
| 17:10.08 | tethridge | http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/08/13/google_android_flaws_pushing_software_firms_towards_iphone.html |
| 17:10.10 | SanMehat | werd. |
| 17:10.19 | SanMehat | nc. |
| 17:10.33 | yakischloba | ouch |
| 17:10.52 | SanMehat | it must be true |
| 17:11.17 | tethridge | the author was reading my mind |
| 17:12.10 | jasta | well, actually i agree with that article. |
| 17:12.15 | jasta | for the most part |
| 17:13.26 | al2308 | whats the short version of the article? ^^ |
| 17:13.47 | tethridge | give us an updated skd |
| 17:13.49 | tethridge | sdk |
| 17:13.58 | al2308 | ^^ |
| 17:14.18 | tomgibara | I think most of it is rubbish |
| 17:15.37 | tomgibara | Though most of the quotes are accurate. |
| 17:17.47 | jasta | i remain convinced that professional developers would be crazy to adopt android now. |
| 17:18.01 | jasta | and they would have been crayz to do it months ago too. |
| 17:18.26 | jasta | the platform has essentially been a secret from day one, despite there being two SDK releases. |
| 17:18.31 | *** join/#android ligi (n=ligi@www.smart4mobile.de) |
| 17:18.34 | SanMehat | jasta: you want a pony? |
| 17:18.41 | SanMehat | nm, i've got work to do |
| 17:18.42 | SanMehat | & |
| 17:19.20 | romainguy_ | jasta: And it's perfectly normal, Android was introduced as a preview release |
| 17:19.41 | romainguy_ | we announced the first phones by the end of the year and we are still sticking to this announcement |
| 17:19.53 | jasta | Right, so this article saying exactly that does not surprise me, nor does it seem shocking. |
| 17:19.58 | romainguy_ | no |
| 17:20.05 | romainguy_ | but the basic premise is flawed |
| 17:20.20 | jasta | Is it? You guys have been upsetting developers as of late :) |
| 17:20.25 | romainguy_ | they compare a product available in store with a preview SDK release |
| 17:20.36 | romainguy_ | so yes, it's hard for developers to make money out of Android right now :) |
| 17:21.03 | tomgibara | yes, that's why the article is rubbish - the comparison w/ apple is stupidly skewed |
| 17:21.19 | SanMehat | tomgibara: agreed |
| 17:21.25 | SanMehat | now *really* back to work :) |
| 17:21.50 | romainguy_ | at least we're being compared to iPhone, not Windows Mobile or Symbian |
| 17:22.40 | jasta | hehe, i can't understand how Windows Mobile is even in the market :) |
| 17:22.58 | alex2308 | as far as i can tell (having seen both) the gphone has way more power and looks much more intressting (from a developers pov). BUT: the device is too big/ugly |
| 17:22.59 | romainguy_ | I recently tried a WinMo touch device... |
| 17:22.59 | jasta | it's what we buy at work, unfortunately by my recommendation, but i can't believe no one tackles them! |
| 17:23.11 | jasta | Android isn't even likely to tackle them. With no Exchange support, everyone's hands are tied. |
| 17:23.15 | romainguy_ | they must have forgotten that people's fingers are slightly bigger than a stylus |
| 17:23.59 | alex2308 | romainguy_ you can change to bigger keyboard, at max size of ~1cm per button |
| 17:24.43 | romainguy_ | alex2308: I was talking about all the widgets on the screen |
| 17:24.45 | jasta | romainguy_: I just recently played with a Windows Mobile 6.1 touch-screen device and was baffled that by *DEFAULT* ClearType was turned off, and the font size set to "Small" |
| 17:24.51 | romainguy_ | scrollbars, buttons, notification icons, etc. |
| 17:24.51 | jasta | Even I had a hard time reading the stupid thing. |
| 17:25.00 | alex2308 | romainguy_ oh, yes. they definitelly suck |
| 17:25.05 | jasta | It's like nobody takes the damn thing seriously. |
| 17:25.29 | jasta | All I can say is I'm jealous of the Windows Mobile dev team. They must have the most cake job in the industry. |
| 17:26.01 | jasta | The only have to make progress at a rate consistent with the software industry in 1990. |
| 17:26.19 | romainguy_ | the performance of their software stack is pretty scary too |
| 17:26.32 | romainguy_ | watching Windows Mobile rotate the screen is very entertaining |
| 17:26.35 | jasta | Oh yeah. On this same device you could see noticable flicker as you moved around most screens |
| 17:26.48 | alex2308 | well, i have to say, the idea of .NET is good, having a VM between hardware and software. so can you port your desk app to your mobile. but ... something must have went wrong ... dunno, the result sucks |
| 17:26.59 | jasta | And yes, you can visualize how it progresses drawing a window. |
| 17:27.01 | jasta | It does it so slow |
| 17:27.21 | jasta | alex2308: how is that any different from J2SE/J2ME? |
| 17:27.44 | jasta | There is still a .NET standard edition, and a Compcat Framework version for mobiles. So the same code doesn't necessarily port. |
| 17:27.57 | alex2308 | its not, but afaik .net provides access to more parts of the phone, like IR |
| 17:28.24 | anno^da_ | So guys I'm leaving now. See you tomorrow. |
| 17:28.28 | jasta | That's true, but the idea is not new. Their execution is just better. Android's is even better still. |
| 17:28.36 | tomgibara | I haven't done any WinMo development, but based on what I hear, and what I read of the technicalities of the different platforms, I think Android has the makings of _the_ development platform of choice in the mobile arena. |
| 17:28.49 | alex2308 | maybe parts wont, but my (.net 2.0) application could be ported to win mobile, i checked it. but id have to rewrite the UI |
| 17:29.06 | alex2308 | true, android seems much better |
| 17:29.18 | tomgibara | It's just better architected at every level |
| 17:29.37 | alex2308 | but the device is big and ugly |
| 17:30.03 | alex2308 | we need smaller android devices. i prefer the white TI prototype. the one that looked like a blackberry. it was so cute |
| 17:30.03 | tomgibara | One development platform will spawn many phones |
| 17:30.07 | anno^da_ | (the devices that we dont know *notify*) |
| 17:30.19 | tomgibara | You can change the phone - but not the platform so easily |
| 17:30.34 | alex2308 | http://www.product-reviews.net/wp-content/userimages/2008/03/google-android-phones-fall-08.jpg |
| 17:30.37 | alex2308 | this one i liked most |
| 17:30.39 | anno^da_ | tomgibara: that's it. Android is not some specific phone. |
| 17:31.06 | romainguy_ | alex2308: Android is a platform, not a phone |
| 17:31.22 | alex2308 | well, there will be one phone in q4 08 |
| 17:32.28 | tomgibara | Unfortunately, technical merit seems to be little correlated with commercial success, so I don't make any predictions on that. |
| 17:32.54 | jasta | tomgibara: we're all hoping they don't fuck it up |
| 17:33.18 | alex2308 | tomgibara: true, see xbox/playstation/wii |
| 17:33.45 | romainguy_ | alex2308: there was probably more technical merit in the Wii than in the Xbox actually :) |
| 17:34.36 | tomgibara | I'm not sure that products always fail by 'fuck up' - I think there's plenty of room for chance to play a part. |
| 17:34.54 | alex2308 | but the wii is (from a technical pov) very simple - and yet, its really great |
| 17:35.30 | romainguy_ | alex2308: that's not what I was saying |
| 17:35.38 | romainguy_ | I'm saying that the Xbox is a very conservative machine |
| 17:35.43 | romainguy_ | even though it has 3 cores |
| 17:36.27 | jasta | AttractiveApe: you there? i will have something for you to test very soon |
| 17:36.29 | romainguy_ | that's why I don't think it has more technical merit than a Wii |
| 17:36.40 | romainguy_ | but yeah, it's more powerful when it comes to crunching numbers :)) |
| 17:36.42 | alex2308 | is it? i thought its counterwise |
| 17:36.54 | alex2308 | contrariwise |
| 17:37.15 | romainguy_ | again, Microsoft just assembled a gamer's PC |
| 17:37.33 | romainguy_ | whereas Nintendo had to create and mass-produce a cheap, usable, motion tracking tech |
| 17:37.53 | romainguy_ | in that regard the PS3 has also more technical merit than the Xbox |
| 17:38.06 | romainguy_ | even though games usually run at higher resolutions on the Xbox |
| 17:38.50 | romainguy_ | (too bad Sony fucked up on the GPU :( |
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| 17:46.16 | AttractiveApe | jasta: I'm about |
| 17:49.19 | jasta | AttractiveApe: good :) |
| 18:01.53 | plusminus_ | I want an Android phone... lalala |
| 18:02.02 | jasta | AttractiveApe: alright. i'm going to upload to android-random now. |
| 18:02.38 | AttractiveApe | k |
| 18:03.23 | spykid | http://phandroid.com/2008/08/14/nobody-cares-about-android/ :D |
| 18:04.20 | jasta | AttractiveApe: ok, you need to download these two files to the device: |
| 18:04.30 | jasta | http://android-random.googlecode.com/files/JNITest.apk to /data/app |
| 18:04.43 | jasta | http://android-random.googlecode.com/files/libNativeMD5.so to /system/lib |
| 18:05.09 | jasta | then fire up the JNITest app and hit Run. I need you to let me know what the 4 benchmark tests give (should be timings, x seconds elapsed). |
| 18:05.38 | jasta | actually, wait, i hardcoded the paths of the files it reads to /sdcard, and as i recall that does not work |
| 18:06.06 | AttractiveApe | yawns. |
| 18:06.24 | jasta | how mcuh space do you have to work with in /data? |
| 18:06.47 | AttractiveApe | 4GB sdhc , so a bit. |
| 18:07.02 | jasta | ahh, ok. i will need you to also create two files called /data/foo and /data/bar |
| 18:07.13 | jasta | they should be identical, and about 4MB in size. |
| 18:07.26 | jasta | the app will just MD5 sum them, basically. |
| 18:07.41 | jasta | teh reason i use two files is because i don't want the kernel's read cache to interfere with benchmarks. |
| 18:07.48 | jasta | that is also the reason why i can't write the files on the fly. they must be existing. |
| 18:07.56 | AttractiveApe | mmmk. |
| 18:08.06 | jasta | i created them with: |
| 18:08.13 | SanMehat | jasta: "echo 3 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches" |
| 18:08.22 | jasta | dd if=/dev/urandom of=foo count=4k |
| 18:08.29 | SanMehat | that will drop the page-cache |
| 18:08.41 | jasta | really? that's good to know |
| 18:08.45 | SanMehat | yup. |
| 18:09.33 | jasta | AttractiveApe: ok, i just uploaded the new JNITest apk that uses /data/foo and /data/bar |
| 18:09.56 | jasta | so again, libNativeMD5.so must go to /system/lib, the apk in the normal place, and two identical 4MB files in /data/{foo,bar}. |
| 18:10.57 | jasta | SanMehat: do you also know how to disable checkjni? |
| 18:11.07 | SanMehat | jasta: no sorry |
| 18:11.10 | AttractiveApe | What's the md5 on your latest JNITest.apk? |
| 18:11.13 | jasta | i only see a way to do it from the emulator's command line, no idea how to disable it on the vogue. |
| 18:11.20 | jasta | 17112444766b439105a0567c9893b5e9 bin/JNITest.apk |
| 18:11.25 | AttractiveApe | cool. |
| 18:13.51 | jasta | i'll look into how to disable JNI... |
| 18:13.59 | jasta | err, JNI checks |
| 18:14.02 | AttractiveApe | copying the new img's to the sd card... |
| 18:18.00 | AttractiveApe | 4 tests, right jata? |
| 18:19.30 | AttractiveApe | native foo: 0.64s, hybrid bar: 0.93s, native foo: 0.61s, hybrid bar: 0.93s |
| 18:19.38 | jasta | yeah |
| 18:19.59 | jasta | wow, really? |
| 18:20.08 | AttractiveApe | I accidentally ran it twice |
| 18:20.11 | AttractiveApe | that's the results of the 2nd run |
| 18:20.18 | AttractiveApe | your scroll thing is broken I think |
| 18:20.19 | jasta | did you create them with dd if=/dev/urandom? |
| 18:20.22 | AttractiveApe | I did. |
| 18:20.30 | jasta | no, Android's scroll thing is broken. use the keypad with it. |
| 18:20.36 | jasta | and how big are the files? |
| 18:21.41 | AttractiveApe | 2MB each |
| 18:21.47 | jasta | ahh ok. |
| 18:21.49 | AttractiveApe | Want bigger? |
| 18:21.59 | jasta | No, but I'd prefer you get it on the first run |
| 18:22.07 | jasta | since we didn't disable the kernel's cache :) |
| 18:22.41 | jasta | actually, try 8MB files. i'm curious if we just have a lot of unrelated overhead in a test run around half a second. |
| 18:23.03 | jasta | then we'll be done. we've already showed that the results are at least consistent with the emulator. |
| 18:23.10 | jasta | though it frustrates me not knowing how to turn of checkjni |
| 18:24.16 | jasta | actually, let's just take a stab in the dark: |
| 18:25.13 | tomgibara | grep for checkjni |
| 18:26.46 | jasta | create a file called /data/local.prop |
| 18:26.49 | jasta | and write in it: |
| 18:26.59 | jasta | ro.kernel.android.checkjni = 1 |
| 18:27.14 | jasta | and also modify default.txt and add android.checkjni=1 to the cmdline |
| 18:27.23 | jasta | (who knows, one of them might take *grin*) |
| 18:28.11 | AttractiveApe | for this run, native foo: 4.61s, hybrid bar: 4.29s, native foo: 2.35s, hybrid bar: 3.64s |
| 18:28.31 | AttractiveApe | 8MB foo / bar size from urandom |
| 18:28.52 | jasta | that first test doesn't seem quite right ;) |
| 18:29.41 | jasta | the native method is guaranteed to take less cpu time hehe. |
| 18:29.45 | tomgibara | are the first two hashing and the second two vanilla? |
| 18:30.00 | jasta | both tests are the exact same thing, i just run them twice to attempt to crudely detect anomalies |
| 18:30.12 | jasta | and also observe the effect of the page cache if it's being used. |
| 18:30.32 | jasta | in this case, that second test was more what i'd expect. |
| 18:30.42 | jasta | but still, we won't know for sure until checkjni is off. |
| 18:30.56 | tomgibara | perhaps the device was busy on the first test |
| 18:30.57 | jasta | AttractiveApe: try one more time modifying those two files for checkjni and run again. we'll see if we can get different results. |
| 18:31.21 | jasta | tomgibara: what's interested here is that the device's performance is dominating the emulator. |
| 18:31.43 | AttractiveApe | It's not a bad piece of hardware :p |
| 18:31.47 | *** join/#android morrildl (n=chatzill@nat/google/x-e119154bc01c9ef4) |
| 18:31.58 | jasta | i get about 2.4s and 3.5s running on the emulator for 4MB files. |
| 18:33.04 | jasta | AttractiveApe: it's an MSM7500 400MHz. i hear rumors that the first android device is expected to be in the 500MHz range ;) |
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| 18:33.16 | AttractiveApe | jasta: probably 520Mhz |
| 18:33.25 | _Marvin_ | hey |
| 18:33.30 | tomgibara | jasta: I'm not that surprised |
| 18:33.39 | AttractiveApe | jasta: the new touch pro / diamond's have those procs. |
| 18:34.14 | AttractiveApe | apparently the diamond's were just released for buying today. |
| 18:35.35 | jasta | tomgibara: i would not have expected the device to win out in number crunching and disk I/O. |
| 18:37.18 | tomgibara | I would expect it to dominate in anything reads/writes a lot to memory |
| 18:37.29 | tomgibara | since there were comments from a Google engineer about the slowness of the memory emulation (iirc) |
| 18:38.18 | jasta | AttractiveApe: if you get time, try it once more to see if we can get checkjni off |
| 18:38.28 | jasta | if not, we'll just leave it here. the results i got were otherwise consistent with the emulator. |
| 18:39.17 | tomgibara | Though I'm not well informed enough to form a worthwhile opinion about the performance. |
| 18:41.57 | tethridge | AttractiveApe, where can you buy a diamond? |
| 18:42.10 | tethridge | uh, HTC diamond |
| 18:42.15 | AttractiveApe | Telus |
| 18:42.21 | AttractiveApe | They just opened it today. |
| 18:42.31 | tethridge | is that Europe or Asia? |
| 18:42.31 | tomgibara | jasta: surely that checkjni is going to skew the results though |
| 18:42.38 | AttractiveApe | tethridge: Canada, so North America. |
| 18:42.46 | AttractiveApe | tethridge: the CDMA version, not GSM. |
| 18:43.05 | tethridge | I'd love to Sprint have something like that for Android |
| 18:43.12 | tethridge | it could happen. :-) |
| 18:43.26 | _Marvin_ | I'd like it too |
| 18:43.45 | tethridge | it would make it nice with their $15 a month unlimited data plane |
| 18:43.47 | tethridge | plan |
| 18:45.23 | plusminus_ | argh, seems like my app is getting to big, as the debugger likes to get fucked up when I go behind my menu o_O |
| 18:46.27 | _Marvin_ | how big is it? |
| 18:46.54 | plusminus_ | just 25k lines but a lot on a MapActivity |
| 18:57.15 | jasta | i hope you dont have one of those 10k line files :) |
| 18:57.33 | plusminus_ | nono ^^ |
| 18:57.50 | plusminus_ | Overlay 1k (needs 40ms to be drawn) |
| 18:57.56 | plusminus_ | and some simple calculation. |
| 18:58.04 | plusminus_ | works really smooth when "Run"ning |
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| 19:48.39 | jasta | plusminus_: have you tried it on a real phone yet? |
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| 20:02.02 | plusminus_ | jasta: I have non |
| 20:02.14 | plusminus_ | just the ZoomMDK |
| 20:02.41 | plusminus_ | and the Android-Support is in Korean |
| 20:02.45 | plusminus_ | :D |
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| 21:27.17 | jasta | romainguy_: is Android really totally resolution-independent? |
| 21:27.48 | jasta | as in, arbitrary resolutions will implicitly be supported? |
| 21:28.21 | jasta | that would be very excited to homebrew projects like custom in-dash car stereoes or touch-screen kiosks. |
| 21:33.27 | romainguy_ | resolution-independent is more than that |
| 21:33.31 | romainguy_ | but yes, Android doesn't care |
| 21:33.36 | romainguy_ | applications though must be careful |
| 21:34.03 | jasta | of course, we've already run into that numerous times with the Vogue :) |
| 21:36.19 | jasta | romainguy_: is the home screen currently replaceable, or is that a 1.0 thing? |
| 21:36.31 | jasta | by current I mean M5 |
| 21:36.57 | romainguy_ | it's replaceable |
| 21:37.03 | romainguy_ | the next SDK will ship with a sample Home |
| 21:37.12 | jasta | really? that's cool. |
| 21:37.24 | romainguy_ | actually the sample Home will be the one you have in M5 |
| 21:37.28 | romainguy_ | although if you replaced Home you would break my heart :) |
| 21:37.33 | jasta | i was actually going to comment that the SDK should do a better job demonstrating more advanced functionality |
| 21:37.42 | jasta | well, your Home screen sucks bad on the Vogue :) |
| 21:37.47 | jasta | the M5 one that is |
| 21:37.55 | jasta | i know the 85772 is different *wink* |
| 21:38.11 | romainguy_ | ah yes, the M5 one totally sucks |
| 21:38.34 | jasta | on the Vogue, the M5 one reverts to showing only a single column expanded by the "All" button |
| 21:38.38 | romainguy_ | yep |
| 21:38.48 | romainguy_ | at least it still works :P |
| 21:38.49 | jasta | so you have one long scrolling column on the left with all apps, and one long column on the right with recent/defaults |
| 21:38.54 | romainguy_ | jasta: i know the 85772 is different *wink* << have you tried it? |
| 21:39.00 | jasta | yeah, i was actually surprised it was so flexible to even work. |
| 21:39.23 | romainguy_ | M5 Home is interesting as a sample |
| 21:39.26 | jasta | romainguy_: maybe, maybe not ;) |
| 21:39.43 | SanMehat | jasta: do you always have to be a punk-ass? |
| 21:39.46 | romainguy_ | it shows how to use custom layout, custom attributes, layout animations, animations, etc. |
| 21:39.46 | SanMehat | :) |
| 21:40.12 | jasta | using Android on the Vogue has made it a lot easier to understand how to create layouts that are flexible. |
| 21:40.35 | romainguy_ | usually supporting landscape and portrait is good enough to support multiple resolution |
| 21:40.56 | romainguy_ | and apps can always use layout-320x240 or whatever they see fit |
| 21:41.13 | jasta | romainguy_: what i like is that it is easy to expand from there. what i mean is that you can initially create layouts that work in portrait and landscape, then you can fine-tune as your app matures. |
| 21:41.43 | jasta | for example, my solitaire game currently works on any resolution, but certain resolutions should use a custom layout to better utilize available space. |
| 21:44.02 | jasta | one thing i don't like though is that because of all this magic in the directory structure you can't unclutter your layouts by creating your own hierarchy |
| 21:44.10 | jasta | so large apps have tons of xml layout files in the same dir. |
| 21:44.43 | romainguy_ | after 1.0 |
| 21:48.57 | tomgibara | romainguy_: What do the layout xml files get processed into, bytecode? |
| 21:49.06 | romainguy_ | no, binary XML |
| 21:49.13 | jasta | tomgibara: they go into a binary XML format, which i have loosely documented. |
| 21:49.45 | tomgibara | jasta: Oh yeah, I forgot about that |
| 21:49.47 | jasta | tomgibara: i wrote a tool ages ago that reverted them back to plain XML |
| 21:50.33 | tomgibara | bytecode would seem a good choice though |
| 21:51.03 | jasta | Not really. |
| 21:51.06 | tomgibara | not compact enough for this purpose perhaps |
| 21:51.17 | tomgibara | why not really? |
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| 21:52.09 | jasta | Well think about it, you could either explicitly generate instructions (as in a bytecode) to pull parse, then create an interpretor for those instructions that runs atop another interpreter (Dalvik). |
| 21:52.42 | jasta | Or you could simply construct code that can parse directly from the file stream, which javac will generate to a bytecode. You just removed one layer of indirection. |
| 21:52.54 | tomgibara | No I meant Dalvik bytecodes, basically each layout file would become a function that operated on some context |
| 21:52.55 | jasta | At the cost of some flexibility, which you won't need. |
| 21:53.32 | jasta | Honestly, that would seem like excessive optimization, with dubious benefits. |
| 21:54.16 | tomgibara | well compactness of representation would be my main concern - but I certainly wouldn't regard it as excessive optimization |
| 21:54.17 | romainguy_ | it would also be annoying to maintain |
| 21:54.40 | jasta | tomgibara: actually, the main design goal was parser performance, not file size. |
| 21:54.58 | tomgibara | I don't see that it's any more difficult to maintain than a parser |
| 21:55.07 | jasta | everything is word-aligned, for example, so that they can just map most of it. |
| 21:55.12 | romainguy_ | well it produces XML that are tied to the API |
| 21:55.21 | romainguy_ | since you generated bytecode |
| 21:55.45 | tomgibara | Yes, I see that, but the parser is tied to the API too. |
| 21:55.59 | tomgibara | Or do you mean for compatibility of apks between sdks |
| 21:56.02 | romainguy_ | except that the compiled files are not |
| 21:56.27 | jasta | tomgibara: by the way, the XML parser Android has is not being run by Dalvik, so your approach would actually remove an opt possibility. |
| 21:56.31 | romainguy_ | besides, we know have include and merges and other funky stuff that are much easier to handle in the parser |
| 21:56.37 | jasta | it was written in C++, and is exposed through JNI. |
| 21:56.49 | romainguy_ | and given the size of the XML documents we have, I doubt that compiling to bytecode would be a big improvement |
| 21:57.02 | romainguy_ | most of the time spent creating layouts is spent executing View's constructor |
| 21:57.06 | romainguy_ | the parsing part is nothing |
| 21:57.15 | tomgibara | fair enough, I naturally defer to your better understanding |
| 21:57.33 | jasta | tomgibara: do note my comment above ;) |
| 21:57.58 | jasta | you would still be adding a layer of indirection even by parsing directly to Dalvik, as it is not even written in Java for the most part ;) |
| 21:58.08 | tomgibara | jasta: I don't see that as particularly valid |
| 21:58.38 | tomgibara | A 'dexified' version of the layout would basically be calling a bunch of constructors and add methods |
| 21:59.24 | tomgibara | I can't imagine any significant improvement by moving that work into C |
| 22:00.13 | jasta | tomgibara: then you're not thinking clearly. for example, in C you can map the internal file formats data structures directly to structures in C, without constructing anything other than the buffer you needed to read it. |
| 22:00.23 | jasta | that's why the file format is aligned. |
| 22:00.35 | tomgibara | That the parsing is very little overhead, is the key reason - and I note again following on from a previous discussion - not written in Java |
| 22:00.38 | jasta | it's non-portable, of course, but it is a common optimization technique. |
| 22:00.54 | tomgibara | I'm familiar with that technique |
| 22:01.08 | tomgibara | but it doesn't work when building a bunch of Java objects |
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| 22:02.01 | jasta | that is true, it would still have to make a copy to get it into Java. |
| 22:02.40 | tomgibara | it would have to do more - allocating objects on the heap invoking the constructors etc. |
| 22:02.50 | jasta | However your approach would not be any different than shaving off a few CPU instructions in this parser loop, doing nothing to tear down all the work doing allocations and copies. |
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| 22:03.07 | tomgibara | exactly, that's why its a bad idead |
| 22:03.09 | tomgibara | *idea |
| 22:03.25 | tomgibara | because the parsing isn't the main overhead |
| 22:03.55 | tomgibara | I'm quite happy to have bad ideas! As long as I get to understand why they're bad :) |
| 22:04.04 | jasta | however, i just recently demonstrated that letting Java handle file I/O is some margin slower on Dalvik ;) |
| 22:04.18 | jasta | so right there you score a win with the native C implementation hehe |
| 22:04.20 | tomgibara | which is why they're using C to do the parsing |
| 22:04.32 | tomgibara | but with a dexified version there is no parsing |
| 22:04.49 | tomgibara | it's the closest equivalent to memory mapping the c structures you were talking about |
| 22:04.50 | jasta | now, i remain skeptical about my own results. That Sun's JVM shows no significant difference but Dalvik's does has me doubting that Dalvik is going as far as it can to opt these calls. |
| 22:05.02 | jasta | also, i can't seem to turn checkjni off. |
| 22:05.05 | tomgibara | unless checkjni is interfering |
| 22:05.21 | jasta | well, i initially thought i had it off by passing -nojni to the emulator |
| 22:05.42 | jasta | but upon closer inspection, i don't think the flag works as documented. i can't find any proof demonstrating that it was off, and the benchmark results are unaffected. |
| 22:06.03 | tomgibara | You need to pass a flag to the dalvik executable |
| 22:06.06 | jasta | so either it is insignificant (unlikely) or something isn't working as i expect. |
| 22:06.15 | tomgibara | or put some magic property into some file somewhere |
| 22:06.42 | jasta | yeah, it needs closer inspection |
| 22:06.59 | tomgibara | -Xcheck:jni is command line switch to Dalvik |
| 22:07.02 | jasta | what's frustrating is that it doesn't tell you anywher e:) |
| 22:07.19 | jasta | tomgibara: well, read emulator -h (-nojni) |
| 22:07.25 | jasta | i thought that was it, but as i said, i'm not so sure. |
| 22:08.13 | tomgibara | is it possible to grep the device files for checkjni or -Xcheck:jni or something like that? |
| 22:08.18 | jasta | i did |
| 22:08.36 | jasta | i took a look at the kernel's command line params with and without -nojni |
| 22:08.41 | jasta | i also looked at adb logcat in both cases |
| 22:08.54 | jasta | grep -i jni, even. didn't find anything useful. |
| 22:09.03 | tomgibara | hmm :( |
| 22:09.35 | jasta | i found some site somewhere that suggested ro.kernel.android.checkjni=0 would turn it off, and i think that file is either initrd:/etc/default.prop or /data/user.prop or something |
| 22:09.57 | jasta | /data/local.prop |
| 22:10.12 | tomgibara | I love switch names like -nojni which actually mean make jni faster :) |
| 22:10.18 | jasta | i had been meaning to confirm that suspicion, but i haven't yet. |
| 22:10.31 | jasta | tomgibara: yeah, the name of the switch is largely why i think it doesn't work. |
| 22:10.36 | jasta | because some goober intern seems to have created it. |
| 22:10.43 | tomgibara | hehe |
| 22:10.56 | tomgibara | You don't have much faith in people :) |
| 22:11.11 | jasta | that there's no log line saying "JNI checking is off!" makes me too lazy to test my above suspicions ;) |
| 22:11.17 | jasta | since i'd have to use performance benchmarks to test, and that sucks |
| 22:11.45 | jasta | tomgibara: well, or i don't have much faith in people writing software. and i don't. humans are not good at this vocation :) |
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| 22:12.58 | ianedgerly | greets all |
| 22:13.02 | jasta | hello |
| 22:13.29 | tomgibara | jasta: sadly, I believe that to be very true |
| 22:14.04 | jasta | tomgibara: it's simply against our grain. it's not how we were meant to think. |
| 22:14.37 | ianedgerly | yeah |
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| 22:16.22 | tomgibara | jasta: I think partially, it's because we don't have the tools yet. |
| 22:17.02 | tomgibara | Mathematics is possibly the most 'unhuman' subject |
| 22:17.24 | tomgibara | but the abstractions that have accrued over several millenia make it more approachable |
| 22:17.41 | jasta | Einstein has this great quote that i really love, hang on let me find it |
| 22:17.50 | jasta | it popped into my head when you said that hehe |
| 22:18.05 | tomgibara | about his problems with mathematics? |
| 22:18.16 | jasta | no, that is a tired quote |
| 22:18.34 | tomgibara | I'm glad you said that :-) |
| 22:19.15 | jasta | Einstein has lots of gems but that wasn't one of them. |
| 22:20.38 | jasta | For example (not the one I was looking for): "Only two things are infinite, the univers and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." |
| 22:20.56 | jasta | but hang on, i'll find the one i'm thinking of. i'm determined now :) |
| 22:24.40 | jasta | Here it is: "As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." |
| 22:25.13 | tomgibara | Yes, very accurate phrasing there. |
| 22:25.15 | jasta | there's another one i was thinking of too but now i'm bored with this search and won't find it. |
| 22:26.27 | jasta | Einstein was really an interesting fellow. I like reading up on his life and such. |
| 22:26.49 | jasta | A passive curiousity of mine is to explore the personalities of some of the "great" well known scientists throughout history. |
| 22:29.12 | tomgibara | One of the things I find amusing about einstein is that it seems to be a persistent myth that he was bad at mathematics |
| 22:29.21 | jasta | Gallileo's story tickles me. I like to reiterate it to the religiously oppressive folks in my life. |
| 22:29.59 | jasta | I'm sure there are a lot of myths about Einstein. Most folks have absolutely no idea who he was. |
| 22:30.02 | tomgibara | I doubt if it tickled Gallileo very much |
| 22:30.02 | jasta | None whatsoever. |
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| 22:30.36 | Dougie187 | good evening everyone. |
| 22:30.47 | tomgibara | Well, I suspect most have heard of him |
| 22:30.48 | jasta | tomgibara: I just meant the part about being put under house arrest because they felt bad killing an old man, and then he went on to write his best work published by a friend. |
| 22:30.56 | tomgibara | Oh yes |
| 22:31.02 | jasta | tomgibara: yeah, heard of him, but they have literally no clue what he did. |
| 22:31.32 | tomgibara | Maybe Gallileo's still laughing at them now from 'the other place' |
| 22:33.09 | tomgibara | jasta: It's a pity because Einstein's thought experiments are some of the most accessible elements of modern science |
| 22:34.07 | tomgibara | Though there's a sad irony that he received his nobel prize for a key discovery in quantum theory which he spent so much time trying to disprove |
| 22:34.36 | jasta | That's how science work. There's nothing sad about that to me. |
| 22:35.08 | jasta | Some of the greatest personal epiphanies I've had came from "finally" bothering to prove some long-held believe to find I was quite wrong all along. |
| 22:35.15 | jasta | belief* |
| 22:35.36 | tomgibara | What is sad is that he refused to believe it was true, even after helping to prove it |
| 22:36.53 | jasta | i have wasted half my afternoon when i should have been coding. |
| 22:36.57 | jasta | hehe |
| 22:37.01 | jasta | i'm going to get back to it :) |
| 22:37.13 | tomgibara | okay happy coding |
| 22:42.02 | plusminus_ | tomgibara: Einstein was "bad" at mathematics because he went to school in Switzerland, where "6" is best, right? |
| 22:45.01 | tomgibara | Are you testing my german :-) |
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| 23:09.54 | plusminus_ | do I? |
| 23:10.42 | tomgibara | ? perhaps I didn't understand your message |
| 23:13.55 | plusminus_ | You were talkign about Einsteins bad math grades and I wrote what I had in my mind... |
| 23:15.30 | tomgibara | So 6 is the best grade? |
| 23:15.45 | plusminus_ | or 5, dunno (in Switzerland) |
| 23:15.52 | plusminus_ | in Germany its the other way around |
| 23:15.59 | plusminus_ | (1 is best) |
| 23:16.07 | plusminus_ | back to android now |
| 23:16.15 | plusminus_ | MoseyCode will be free, I guess? |
| 23:16.36 | plusminus_ | but did you think about preotecting an app from privacy? |
| 23:17.03 | plusminus_ | as when you want to sell it you need some key-code (or IMEI based) security... |
| 23:17.29 | f00f- | sup +/- |
| 23:17.38 | plusminus_ | ? |
| 23:18.20 | plusminus_ | I hope something like that will come with the next sdk or with T-Mobile's Android-Market... |
| 23:19.17 | tomgibara | IMEI will probably be a reliable way of uniquely identifying users, but you need to be careful not to expose it |
| 23:19.34 | plusminus_ | yeah... |
| 23:19.47 | tomgibara | Moseycode needs accounts so that published barcodes are 'accounted for' |
| 23:20.03 | plusminus_ | imo its so much overhead, if every developer has to create a solution for that on its own :( |
| 23:20.06 | tomgibara | but it lodges a securely generated key on the device and uses that |
| 23:21.04 | tomgibara | my plan is to, in time, adopt openID, that will help some users to avoid being overloaded with accounts |
| 23:21.32 | tomgibara | There's no reason why you can't use, the google authentication APIs |
| 23:21.58 | tomgibara | It will of course require that users need to sign up to a google account to use your app |
| 23:22.09 | tomgibara | but if the rumours are true :)... |
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| 23:46.17 | plusminus_ | I was thinking of something like this: |
| 23:46.53 | plusminus_ | onCreate(Bundle b){ |
| 23:46.54 | plusminus_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:46.59 | plusminus_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:47.04 | plusminus_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:47.09 | plusminus_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:47.13 | plusminus_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:47.18 | plusminus_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:47.20 | plusminus_ | ... |
| 23:47.20 | plusminus_ | } |
| 23:50.41 | jasta | plusminus_: ...contact the network each time your application opens? no, no. :) |
| 23:51.13 | plusminus_ | that was the first thing that came to my mind @ 2am :/ |
| 23:51.29 | f00f- | hahhaah |
| 23:51.32 | plusminus_ | but I think you got what I mean |
| 23:51.33 | jasta | in general, you must always regard the network as slow, unstable and possibly just totally gone. |
| 23:51.54 | romainguy_ | I would say totally gone, unstable and then slow :)) |
| 23:51.55 | f00f- | yeah just throw it in a runnable in a new thread. if it works it works, if not, that's life :P |
| 23:52.01 | plusminus_ | i'm just talking on the basic idea |
| 23:52.39 | plusminus_ | or how do you manage Anti-Piracy ? |
| 23:52.51 | jasta | plusminus_: still, if something like that was possible (god i hope they don't do that to us), then it would be done with a periodic phone-home check. |
| 23:52.56 | jasta | nothing that runs each time your app runs. |
| 23:53.16 | plusminus_ | yeah probably. |
| 23:53.19 | jasta | plusminus_: Most mobile software does not even attempt to thwart piracy. Doing so would damage paying customers user experience for the most part. |
| 23:53.53 | plusminus_ | What I fear is that I have to send out keys or something o_O |
| 23:54.14 | plusminus_ | when someone buys my app in the "Market" i won't recognize that at all |
| 23:54.16 | f00f- | plusminus_: most likely work with operator on that, or build security enforcement into your backend |
| 23:55.45 | plusminus_ | Imo the "Market"-company should assure that only the user who bought my app is allowed to use it. |
| 23:56.23 | plusminus_ | thats my opinion |
| 23:56.27 | f00f- | well, it needs to be technically feasible too |
| 23:56.30 | f00f- | the enforcement of it |
| 23:56.35 | f00f- | but dont spend too much effort |
| 23:56.38 | f00f- | mobile piracy is still low |
| 23:56.43 | f00f- | not worth the effort imho |
| 23:56.54 | f00f- | just put some easy stopgap measures to keep out the riff raff |
| 23:57.13 | f00f- | experienced crackers will get through it no matter what |
| 23:57.27 | plusminus_ | yeah, I just don't want it to get copy-pastes |
| 23:59.19 | jasta | i'm sure someone will write a disassembler for dex |
| 23:59.23 | jasta | and then trivially crack programs :) |
