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| 00:46.23 | umdk1d4 | hey there, wondering if anyone else is working on a dbus/dcop-based remote control for android? |
| 00:46.28 | umdk1d4 | specifically for vlc and amarok |
| 00:46.51 | umdk1d4 | id love to jupm in and help with anything alreayd started, otherwise ill just do it myself ;) |
| 00:52.48 | umdk1d4 | ooh any mythtv too |
| 01:00.10 | umdk1d4 | finally found a gem: http://wiki.xmms2.xmms.se/wiki/Media_Player_Interfaces |
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| 01:40.18 | yakischloba | jasta: know any 3 bedroom houses for rent? |
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| 02:54.43 | gambler | umdk1d4, there is a thing called anyremote u might want to look at. It already does all that with JSR-82 |
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| 03:36.46 | yakischloba | anyone recommend a lightweight graph generator, just for simple line graphs? |
| 03:37.16 | jasta | i take it you don't mean gnuplot? :) |
| 03:37.42 | yakischloba | i take it you mean gnuplot is heavy ;) |
| 03:37.58 | sayers | gnuplot :) |
| 03:38.00 | yakischloba | never used it actually. only done graphs in ruby before. |
| 03:38.02 | sayers | that name sounds free |
| 03:39.01 | jasta | yakischloba: gnuplot is a good choice. it's very easy to work with, and as light as you're going to get without being crap. |
| 03:39.18 | jasta | spend an hour learning how to interact with it. and then be glad you did. |
| 03:39.23 | yakischloba | wait, I'm sorry. I meant to be used with android. |
| 03:39.33 | jasta | oh, lord no :) |
| 03:39.43 | jasta | nevermind hehe |
| 03:39.52 | yakischloba | spaced that minor detail ;) |
| 03:41.28 | yakischloba | no suggestion then? |
| 03:41.56 | jasta | not that i can think of. you will likely have to roll your own. |
| 03:42.07 | yakischloba | eek. |
| 03:42.19 | jasta | Java on mobile devices is somewhat at odds. You want your code to be as slim as possible. |
| 03:42.33 | yakischloba | yeah. |
| 03:42.36 | jasta | Which sometimes means avoiding existing reusable code |
| 03:42.50 | jasta | I would google for Java libraries (assuming you need it to be in Java0. |
| 03:43.01 | jasta | if you find none lightweight, Google harder. if you still find none, write a crappy one :) |
| 03:44.08 | yakischloba | sounds like quite a learning experience. |
| 03:48.45 | yakischloba | sounds like it might be easier to submit my data and retrieve a graph over http. |
| 03:49.18 | jasta | probably would be, but then you must consider whether or not your user logically expects your app to work without the network. |
| 03:49.54 | yakischloba | I intend for there to be a server-side component anyways |
| 03:50.10 | muthu | you can draw a simple graph yourself |
| 03:50.12 | jasta | please just consider the implication. |
| 03:50.22 | muthu | using the android graphics |
| 03:50.30 | jasta | i think a lot of android users will be frustrated by the assumptions developers make. |
| 03:51.10 | yakischloba | gotta start somewhere. I don't believe its going to be perfect, I'm positive I'll re-write it at least 3 times, and I don't expect anyone to like it. (yet) |
| 03:51.52 | muthu | jfreechart is one option |
| 03:52.02 | yakischloba | Eventually I'd love it if people used my app but for now its just learning. |
| 03:52.32 | umdk1d4 | gambler: awesome thanks for that link |
| 03:52.39 | yakischloba | muthu: do you think its light enough to use on android?.. |
| 03:52.51 | umdk1d4 | it looks like its pretty flexible, but only talks about using incoming DCOP, and not really sending |
| 03:53.02 | jasta | yakischloba: well if you don't care that your app sucks, then anything's light enough. |
| 03:53.03 | umdk1d4 | of course, it could always use the command-line dcop to send, but thats an extra step |
| 03:53.17 | muthu | yakischloba: do your own |
| 03:53.31 | yakischloba | jasta: please don't criticize for where I'm at :( |
| 03:53.45 | muthu | its very simple to do some graphs using the built in graphics stuff |
| 03:54.03 | yakischloba | muthu: ok. thanks |
| 03:54.06 | muthu | jfreechart is a bit heavy |
| 03:54.13 | muthu | it does all fancy things |
| 03:54.24 | jasta | yakischloba: i just meant that if your expectations are so low, it doesn't matter what you decide :) |
| 03:55.14 | muthu | all my maps related classes are failing to load in dalvik.. any ideas? |
| 03:55.52 | jasta | muthu: if you expect help, you should publish something we can use. |
| 03:55.56 | yakischloba | jasta: I want the best solution within the scope of my abilities. I'll write my own graph thing then. I can't be a perfectionist about programming, UI design and usability while I'm in the elementary learning stages of all 3. |
| 03:56.34 | muthu | jasta: publish what? |
| 03:56.40 | jasta | yakischloba: if you're trying to just prototype your idea, it isn't necessarily a bad idea to pick some heavy java lib that's easy to work with and replace that piece of your design later. just don't nail the thing in place. |
| 03:56.49 | jasta | muthu: well, how about some relevant log information? |
| 04:01.23 | muthu | it just says fail to load |
| 04:01.29 | muthu | not much details there |
| 04:01.34 | jasta | i don't believe that. |
| 04:01.53 | jasta | what is "it"? |
| 04:02.55 | muthu | jasta: what would be the reasons for a class failing to load in dalvik? |
| 04:08.50 | jasta | i'm sure there are lots. please just answer my question if you want help. |
| 04:09.19 | muthu | i don't have enough info there.. its weird |
| 04:10.03 | jasta | again, where is "there"? |
| 04:10.33 | muthu | the logcat says "failed to load class".. |
| 04:10.36 | yakischloba | muthu is being a weirdo. |
| 04:11.44 | jasta | i don't believe that the logcat merely says "failed to load class". please stop hiding information. |
| 04:14.19 | umdk1d4 | aww place nice jasta :P |
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| 06:34.47 | jasta | tomgibara: you there? |
| 06:39.12 | jasta | tomgibara: well anyway, i have some results. i wouldn't call the difference negligible, although i don't think it would be prohitively slow for the MediaPlayer to implement a user-supplied stream. |
| 06:41.14 | jasta | i haven't tested on the vogue yet, though. |
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| 06:43.50 | rhett_ | have they given out these top 10 prizes yet? |
| 06:46.52 | jasta | no |
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| 08:29.34 | Hai-Fai | http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WCyceYJRUtE is that Dream? :) can hardly wait.. |
| 08:33.57 | anno^da_ | good monring guys |
| 08:34.07 | anno^da_ | morning |
| 08:34.07 | anno^da_ | :) |
| 08:34.27 | Hai-Fai | morning morning |
| 08:37.18 | tomgibara | jasta: What were the results of your benchmark? |
| 08:39.35 | tomgibara | ignore that, didn't notice the pm |
| 08:45.05 | umdk1d4 | Hai-Fai: i dont think its the final one by far |
| 08:45.16 | umdk1d4 | looks too much like the other demo handsets weve seen |
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| 08:58.27 | spykid | Can anyone confirm Android phone appearance in Germany? Got some infos, that it will happen in some weeks at least as preview :) |
| 08:58.51 | muthu | who's previewing it? |
| 08:59.11 | spykid | someone will get a preview, no names ;) |
| 08:59.20 | muthu | who's showing it? |
| 08:59.28 | muthu | is it htc? |
| 09:00.09 | spykid | Not much infos yet |
| 09:00.30 | spykid | But the source is trustworthy |
| 09:00.56 | muthu | nothing outside us.. is my guess |
| 09:04.40 | anno^da_ | spykid: It I would say yes now the next rumours would be ready for take off. ;) |
| 09:05.11 | anno^da_ | IF |
| 09:05.37 | muthu | its not previewing anywhere |
| 09:06.44 | spykid | I'm quite cool with rumors, but this is quite sure - at least some OHA Member is previewing it to some selected persons/companies - for Germany T-Mobile would be obvious ;) |
| 09:07.21 | muthu | tmobile and htc can preview it within their companies.. |
| 09:07.46 | spykid | it's not within |
| 09:08.24 | muthu | hope the device comes out fast |
| 09:08.45 | anno^da_ | well it would be cool but I dont believe anything any more untill I get something official :D |
| 09:09.00 | cutmasta | they should release asap a device |
| 09:09.07 | spykid | anno^da_: So do I ;) |
| 09:09.10 | cutmasta | that the iphone gets a goof competitor |
| 09:09.14 | cutmasta | d |
| 09:09.44 | muthu | and also release it for the global market |
| 09:09.48 | cutmasta | yes |
| 09:09.53 | spykid | anno^da_: ...and I was asking for a second source :D |
| 09:10.04 | cutmasta | i hope they dont make the same stupid release politics as apple do |
| 09:10.27 | anno^da_ | spykid: Yeah I know. :D I'm confirming now that there will be a preview. ;) |
| 09:12.26 | spykid | anno^da: ...and now I'm searching for a third and maybe a fourth one outside of the IRC :D |
| 09:12.56 | anno^da_ | ;) |
| 09:13.08 | anno^da_ | Well alex is not here :P he could confirm as well |
| 09:13.16 | anno^da_ | or jasta will confirm too :D |
| 09:15.03 | cutmasta | spykid, ask moriddl |
| 09:15.08 | cutmasta | ;) |
| 09:16.54 | tric | hmm, is there a way to "bundle" a subactivity to the main activity, so when i press back button ill "close" the main app and not only the sub activity? |
| 09:17.07 | tric | or do i need to use a dialog instead of a subactivity. |
| 09:18.21 | spykid | cutmasta: I expect no one from Google itself to comment as they said it's up to their partners to make announcements |
| 09:18.47 | cutmasta | spykid, yap |
| 09:19.01 | cutmasta | sounds reasonable |
| 09:27.44 | tomgibara | tric: Just get the main activity to finish when it observes that the sub activity has finished |
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| 09:34.15 | anno^da_ | What is the right Media Content Provider (Photos and Video). On http://code.google.com/android/toolbox/apis/media.html it says "Video.Media...." on http://code.google.com/android/devel/data/contentproviders.html#addingrecord it says "Media.Images...". |
| 09:37.34 | tric | tomgi: hmm, true, thanks |
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| 09:38.42 | anno^da_ | http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/provider/package-summary.html <- Here I cant find the Media Provider. But I would like to take the right one and not storing my media files just in my own database or plain file. |
| 10:01.04 | anno^da_ | got it |
| 10:01.49 | anno^da_ | it is Images.Media ... (replace Images by the media type you want to store) Oh I likte wrong docs :D |
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| 10:30.35 | anno^da_ | Whats wrong about that: http://rafb.net/p/I2ykrg30.html . I cant get the base URI for storing images. :/ |
| 10:43.53 | muthu | try using the URI directly |
| 10:52.21 | anno^da_ | I've tried that it fails all the time. |
| 10:52.31 | anno^da_ | I will do it now without the ContentProvider |
| 10:52.39 | anno^da_ | and switch to it with a new SDK |
| 10:52.56 | anno^da_ | Reading through the groups there isnt a solution for that problem |
| 10:53.22 | anno^da_ | all the examples given by google fail as well. (that I can access through the docs or in the groups) |
| 10:53.52 | anno^da_ | Perhaps romainguy can say something about it |
| 10:58.11 | muthu | we need an Android Developers Guide from goog |
| 10:58.56 | anno^da_ | :-) |
| 10:59.42 | anno^da_ | the problem is that the examples in the docs are not working and thats pretty annoying. Especially for beginners. :-) |
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| 11:54.35 | mr_daniel | <PROTECTED> |
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| 13:12.43 | anno^da | reading through this rumoured TMO blog is pretty funny |
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| 13:14.02 | anno^da | "From what I'm hearing there is no video though...wtf guys? No video and a 3 MP camera?" <- haha well too funny. |
| 13:14.37 | muthu | no video? |
| 13:14.39 | anno^da | "I meant the phone doesn't take video with the camera. I'm sure it will play and stream video though" <- ahahaha |
| 13:15.15 | anno^da | even with the sdk you can do video. This site seems to be veeeery trust worthy :D |
| 13:16.37 | muthu | not sure what;s coming for 1.0 |
| 13:18.27 | anno^da | well even the smallest phones do video recording ;) |
| 13:20.22 | spykid | anno^da: They are trustworthy, but not too techsavy and also there are some guys in the who have absolutely no glue ;) |
| 13:20.51 | muthu | only oha knows! |
| 13:21.12 | anno^da | spykid thats the problem |
| 13:21.15 | anno^da | not tech savy :) |
| 13:21.49 | spykid | T-Mobile knows... |
| 13:22.44 | muthu | oh yeah |
| 13:22.45 | spykid | tmonews is a good indicator |
| 13:23.06 | muthu | hope its all opened up soon |
| 13:23.45 | muthu | anyone know when's the device launch? |
| 13:23.46 | anno^da | Yeah we'll see soon ;) |
| 13:24.01 | anno^da | October if the sources are right |
| 13:24.17 | muthu | ok |
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| 13:26.29 | muthu | next year will be exciting times to be working on android |
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| 13:27.03 | muthu | if android really catches on.. |
| 13:27.22 | muthu | w$$t! |
| 13:31.18 | anno^da | I dont really care about the devices the most importing thing will be how open the system will really be. |
| 13:31.56 | muthu | its a combination of all these things |
| 13:32.39 | anno^da | so I have to concentrate on the next olympic final :P |
| 13:33.38 | muthu | what's that? |
| 13:34.01 | anno^da | an well I dont know how it is called in english. |
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| 13:34.11 | anno^da | fencing finals :) |
| 13:34.30 | muthu | really, you are good at it? |
| 13:34.42 | tric | lol |
| 13:34.48 | anno^da | lol no :P I have to concentrate on the tv |
| 13:34.51 | anno^da | :P |
| 13:34.55 | muthu | haha |
| 13:35.27 | anno^da | But well that would be cool ;). I'm writting with you from my android pre release device directly from the olympics. |
| 13:35.42 | muthu | lol |
| 13:35.50 | muthu | it would be a reality in london ;) |
| 13:35.56 | anno^da | it will be |
| 13:36.07 | anno^da | and then we wont have censored internet access |
| 13:36.16 | muthu | and no carriers |
| 13:36.22 | anno^da | well yeah |
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| 13:50.52 | anno^da | is Zattoo also available in the us ? (free P2P IP TV) |
| 13:55.02 | alex2308 | US dont have enough bandwidth |
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| 14:03.58 | spykid | anno^da: Not if you try to use it with an US ip |
| 14:12.03 | anno^da | Yeah ok so there are no channels available in the us. |
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| 14:28.12 | spykid | anno^da: If you use something like a proxy or vpn it might work |
| 14:29.05 | anno^da | Well haha no I dont want to use it. I was just interested if the service is also available in the us. |
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| 14:39.24 | yakischloba | morning |
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| 15:02.36 | jasta | morning |
| 15:09.49 | yakischloba | morning morning |
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| 15:15.12 | jasta | yawn :) |
| 15:22.36 | yakischloba | tell me about it. i layed in bed for half an hour or so after my alarm went off this morning. body did not want to rise. |
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| 16:39.55 | anno^da_ | good evening |
| 16:39.56 | anno^da_ | guys |
| 16:39.57 | anno^da_ | :) |
| 16:40.50 | romainguy__ | good morning :) |
| 16:41.03 | anno^da | :) |
| 16:41.12 | anno^da | haha well how late is it in the us ? |
| 16:41.41 | tethridge | almost 1:00 PM on the east coast |
| 16:41.51 | romainguy__ | 9:40 on the west coast |
| 16:42.01 | anno^da | ah :) ok here in Germany it is 7 pm :) |
| 16:42.05 | anno^da | morning :D haha |
| 16:44.44 | anno^da | romainguy: do you know sth about the media content providers in m5 ? (for images video etc) Should they work or are they known to not work? (an according thread: http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/68a5a53f21bdbb10# ) |
| 16:45.43 | romainguy__ | I have no idea |
| 16:46.05 | romainguy__ | unfortunately M5 is so far away from what we use now that it's a bit difficult to say what was working or not back then :( |
| 16:46.13 | anno^da | ok no problem then I'm using the normal file saving. |
| 16:46.20 | romainguy__ | file saving? |
| 16:46.28 | anno^da | save it to a normal file :) |
| 16:47.30 | anno^da | But I can imagine that it is difficult for you to say sth about that very old version. |
| 16:47.42 | romainguy__ | I wish I could help more :) |
| 16:48.11 | romainguy__ | there are periods during which builds that are 2 or 3 days old are very different already :) |
| 16:48.14 | anno^da | haha yeah but no problem. Tell us the release date for the new SDK and everything is fine. *laughing* |
| 16:48.23 | romainguy__ | lol |
| 16:48.27 | anno^da | ;) |
| 16:48.43 | romainguy__ | I may or may not know |
| 16:48.48 | anno^da | :D |
| 16:48.50 | romainguy__ | but whether I know or not, I won't tell :) |
| 16:49.02 | romainguy__ | I don't want to spoil the surprise |
| 16:49.03 | anno^da | Well yeah thats what I knew. |
| 16:49.11 | anno^da | But it was worth a try. |
| 16:49.20 | anno^da | So it will be tomorrow. :) |
| 16:49.41 | anno^da | Or with the pre release of the HTC dream in september. |
| 16:50.03 | romainguy__ | Haha, you've been reading too many rumors on the web :p |
| 16:50.23 | anno^da | But it must be fun for you hearing all the rumours and knowing it better. |
| 16:50.37 | anno^da | :) |
| 16:50.52 | anno^da | Haha yeah reading for sure but not really believing. :-) |
| 16:50.57 | romainguy__ | in a way it's fun |
| 16:51.01 | romainguy__ | but it's also scary |
| 16:51.12 | romainguy__ | because if the other news are of the same quality... |
| 16:51.18 | tethridge | I don't expect you google employees to weigh in on this issue, but it does make me worry a little if T-mobile launches a phone in Sept. |
| 16:51.22 | anno^da | the other news ? |
| 16:51.30 | anno^da | wrong news ? |
| 16:51.33 | romainguy__ | what's impressive is that when *one* web site talks about a rumor with no source, every web site in the world quotes that web site |
| 16:51.40 | tethridge | there won't be very many apps for it compared to the likes of the iPhone or winMo |
| 16:51.55 | romainguy__ | tethridge: iPhone came out with 0 apps |
| 16:52.02 | anno^da | Thats right. |
| 16:52.09 | anno^da | It took one year for the app store ;) |
| 16:52.21 | anno^da | and the 3G phone |
| 16:52.46 | anno^da | and even that is not capaple of the easiest things. (but no bashing I do like it) |
| 16:52.49 | tethridge | well, I've been waiting a year already. I don't want to wait another year |
| 16:52.53 | tethridge | :-) |
| 16:53.04 | romainguy__ | just remember that Android is NOT one product |
| 16:53.10 | romainguy__ | it's a platform and an OS |
| 16:53.34 | anno^da | romainguy: but thats what happens when no offical information is offered. |
| 16:53.47 | anno^da | Everey news site writes about every littler rumour. |
| 16:53.48 | romainguy__ | anno^da: except that "journalists" should know better |
| 16:53.54 | anno^da | Thats right. |
| 16:54.14 | romainguy__ | I worked as a tech journalist for years and this kind of quality just disgusts me |
| 16:54.21 | romainguy__ | these people are not professionnal |
| 16:54.27 | anno^da | Well thats something I'm with you. |
| 16:54.33 | romainguy__ | it's impressive to see how they copy/paste each other |
| 16:54.45 | romainguy__ | they don't even try to rewrite the news |
| 16:54.47 | romainguy__ | :(( |
| 16:54.50 | anno^da | Yeah it is. When you look at the Google News for Android :D |
| 16:54.54 | zhobbs_ | "journalists" on TV news aren't professional anymore...how can you expect bloggers to be |
| 16:55.05 | romainguy__ | it's not just bloggers |
| 16:55.07 | anno^da | 10 topics and every topic is the same. |
| 16:55.16 | romainguy__ | it's also tech news site |
| 16:55.20 | romainguy__ | or even more generic sites |
| 16:55.27 | romainguy__ | for instance |
| 16:55.33 | anno^da | From my point of view a lot of tv stations are less professionel than some bloggers. |
| 16:55.33 | romainguy__ | monday, android was delayed till 2009 |
| 16:55.38 | tethridge | well, at least cnet spelled "interasting" correctly when they copied and pasted. |
| 16:55.41 | romainguy__ | and tuesday, Android will be released in september |
| 16:56.13 | tethridge | so it wasn't a literal copy and paste. :-) |
| 16:56.33 | romainguy__ | probably was but CNET must have editors :) |
| 16:57.03 | SanMehat | romainguy__: :) |
| 16:57.56 | anno^da | :D |
| 16:58.12 | anno^da | But it is fun to see that. Normal people wont see that |
| 16:58.26 | anno^da | because they only know the news from their favourite news site. |
| 16:58.27 | tethridge | yesterday I happened to look at pandora for mobile devices |
| 16:58.35 | zhobbs_ | google/t-mobile could put the rumors to rest anytime they want |
| 16:58.42 | anno^da | (pandora :( not available anymore in Germany :((( ) |
| 16:58.54 | tethridge | they have a free version for the iPhone, but for my piece of crap Samsung they want me to pay a monthly fee. |
| 16:59.00 | tethridge | go figure |
| 16:59.01 | anno^da | lol |
| 17:03.56 | tethridge | have you guys seen any mockups of how android will handle user entry? I'm curious if it will do something similar to the iPhone for stuff like combo boxes and the keyboard (with predictive typing). |
| 17:04.15 | tethridge | all I've seen is the keyboard in the sdk |
| 17:05.55 | anno^da | well android is capable of doing it in different ways |
| 17:06.32 | anno^da | but what in detail we will see. In the future there will be a lot of new methods once the system is open. |
| 17:06.58 | anno^da | When you look at Openmoko there are more than 10 ideas for doing user input without a real keyboard |
| 17:07.23 | tethridge | I do like the "magnified" combo boxes from the iphone |
| 17:08.02 | tethridge | I don't really want a dedicated keyboard either, so I hope the software keyboard is pretty good |
| 17:08.26 | tethridge | anno^da, do you have a link to those? |
| 17:08.50 | zhobbs_ | I think I'd like a dedicated keyboard on the XPERIA |
| 17:09.07 | anno^da | ah I have to search for them they are covered in the openmoko wiki |
| 17:11.47 | tethridge | zhobbs, what is xperia? |
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| 17:13.42 | anno^da | http://wiki.openmoko.org/ <- I have to eat now. But I will search the unknown methods later on. Some E17 (windows manager for linux) guys tried very funny methods of user input. |
| 17:14.23 | anno^da | But I dont know if they are covered in the wiki. |
| 17:14.39 | tethridge | ok |
| 17:15.36 | anno^da | ah |
| 17:15.37 | anno^da | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Text_Input |
| 17:15.40 | anno^da | Here it is :) |
| 17:15.54 | anno^da | A lot of methods :D |
| 17:15.57 | tethridge | that helps. There is a lot of information on that site |
| 17:16.38 | anno^da | definetly |
| 17:16.45 | anno^da | and why not port some methods to android |
| 17:16.53 | anno^da | even for the non keyboard devices |
| 17:18.28 | anno^da | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFf9Mw3nlsY <- I've tested this one on the pc and it works really well with a bit of training |
| 17:18.33 | zhobbs_ | tethridge: http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/10/sonyericsson-xperia-x1-qwerty-with-windows-mobile/ |
| 17:19.11 | anno^da | I really like the design of the Xperia |
| 17:19.16 | anno^da | (hardware design) |
| 17:19.57 | zhobbs_ | this input method is kinda cool: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBOyGp25sSg |
| 17:20.28 | zhobbs_ | looks kinda hard though |
| 17:21.00 | tethridge | yeah |
| 17:22.33 | tethridge | zhobbs, that does look slick |
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| 17:23.05 | tethridge | I'm just thinking about how much thinner it could be without the keyboard. I'll have to see how I like the phones when I can get my hands on them. |
| 17:24.53 | jasta | zhobbs_: when are you guys expected to know the judging results? |
| 17:26.34 | zhobbs_ | jasta: not sure |
| 17:26.46 | zhobbs_ | saw some people saying they haven't been getting hit yet |
| 17:26.49 | jasta | tethridge: keyboards don't add much more depth than the physical size of the buttons themselves. the circuitry involved is very, very simple. |
| 17:27.18 | jasta | the hardest partof the design is that the whole shell must be able to separate, so there's double the plastic. |
| 17:27.30 | tethridge | jasta, interesting |
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| 17:28.33 | jasta | and also they have to design the layout differently since they can't have anything thicker than each of the halves |
| 17:28.44 | jasta | which is probably their biggest challenge making a shell that can split to reveal a keyboard |
| 17:29.08 | zhobbs_ | that XPERIA is actually made by HTC...so maybe we'll see something cool like that |
| 17:29.35 | jasta | HTC makes some pretty cool phones, I don't doubt that they can pull off something spectacular for Android. |
| 17:29.54 | tethridge | I sure hope so. Either a diamond or xperia would be nice |
| 17:29.58 | jasta | although it depends entirely on how much enthusiasm and money they want to put behind an untested product like this |
| 17:30.01 | *** join/#android OpnSrc1 (i=harisha1@gateway/tor/x-3617553bd9211517) |
| 17:30.30 | jasta | HTC currently holds the title of the only smartphone maker to create a smart flip-phone. |
| 17:30.52 | jasta | i didn't mean anything by that, just some cool smartphone trivia ;) |
| 17:30.54 | SanMehat | what are you, wikipedia? |
| 17:31.32 | tethridge | wikipedia bot |
| 17:31.41 | SanMehat | ahhh that makes sense |
| 17:31.48 | tethridge | jasta, weather LAX |
| 17:31.54 | tethridge | ? |
| 17:32.01 | tethridge | slow bot at that |
| 17:32.09 | SanMehat | probably written in python |
| 17:32.27 | tethridge | or java. :-) |
| 17:32.33 | SanMehat | 8) |
| 17:32.45 | jasta | No, COBOL. |
| 17:33.05 | jasta | And it's currently 74 degrees and sunny. |
| 17:33.05 | SanMehat | it *is* an interesting bot though.. see how it tries to play along? |
| 17:33.09 | jasta | (i guessed, was i right?) |
| 17:40.08 | tethridge | 71 and cloudy |
| 17:40.16 | tethridge | you suck. :-) |
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| 18:58.59 | jasta | yawn |
| 18:59.38 | yakischloba | yawwwwwwn |
| 18:59.46 | jasta | sup |
| 18:59.53 | jasta | this morning really sucked to get up |
| 19:00.07 | yakischloba | yeah |
| 19:00.22 | yakischloba | thats what i was saying earlier. i felt like shit for the first 4 hours or so i was awake. |
| 19:00.34 | yakischloba | not enough sleep i guess |
| 19:05.30 | jasta | i got plenty, i just couldn't get up or something |
| 19:06.53 | jasta | I just committed a functional project demonstrating somewhat non-trivial JNI with Android. |
| 19:11.12 | jasta | http://code.google.com/p/android-random/source/browse/#svn/trunk/JNITest |
| 19:19.58 | *** join/#android yakischloba (n=jake@rnkfoods.com) |
| 19:35.18 | yakischloba | if I had any idea what any of that meant beyond 'JNI' I would comment. |
| 19:37.13 | jasta | yakischloba: JNI is how you interact with Java from other languages, most notably C/C++. It allows other languages to interact with the Java runtime. |
| 19:37.26 | jasta | Much of Android is coded in C/C++ and just linked to from Java this way. |
| 19:38.41 | yakischloba | maybe I phrased that wrong. I meant I was familiar with what JNI is ;) |
| 19:40.44 | jasta | oh, well all i was doing was trying to benchmark some native stuffs on Android. |
| 19:41.03 | jasta | in particular, the difference between natively reading a file versus using a FileInputStream poked through to C. |
| 19:41.21 | yakischloba | gotcha. is this the way of the future for complex android applications? |
| 19:41.24 | jasta | Having C invoke the read(byte[]) method, extract the bytes, and use them for some purpose inside the JNI library. |
| 19:42.02 | jasta | I was merely trying to get a better sense of performance implications. In particular I'm looking at why the MediaPlayer doesn't have a way to feed it from Java using a stream. |
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| 19:44.02 | jasta | One thing I can't quite get my head around is why Android would force us to be efficient at a great loss of flexibility. When possible, I can't see a reason Android couldn't offer simply optimized alternatives. |
| 19:44.27 | jasta | For example reading from a FileDescriptor instead of an InputStream. But still supporting both. |
| 19:44.40 | jasta | MediaPlayer is a bit trickier, of course, since it must support all manners of seeking. |
| 19:44.48 | *** join/#android DreyX (n=fake@nat/microsoft/x-180195fbe9f7b75b) |
| 19:45.14 | jasta | boo, microsoft ;0 |
| 19:45.39 | DreyX | Wow |
| 19:45.40 | DreyX | Mood Swings |
| 19:45.43 | DreyX | Work is work :) |
| 19:46.00 | DreyX | Thankful to God to even be here |
| 19:46.06 | *** join/#android Dralspire (n=dralspir@56-196.126-70.tampabay.res.rr.com) |
| 19:46.16 | yakischloba | lol? |
| 19:47.08 | DreyX | Honestly my first time in an IRC server in like 3 years :) |
| 19:48.06 | DreyX | U r riding a horse full speed, a giraffe is beside u and u r being chased by a lion. What do you do....??? |
| 19:48.18 | DreyX | U get ur drunk ass off the carousel !!! |
| 19:48.32 | DreyX | Wow, guess people just really idle in these things |
| 19:48.53 | yakischloba | lol. |
| 19:49.21 | DreyX | Life or Work or Whatever you're at must be really boring |
| 19:50.36 | jasta | He sounds like a troll already. I was only joking about the Microsoft crack. |
| 19:51.26 | DreyX | lOl |
| 19:51.36 | DreyX | jasta, got a great sense of humor |
| 19:52.14 | jasta | Unless you're a 15 year old girl, please stop typing like you are texting your girlfriends. |
| 19:52.26 | jasta | In fact, even in that case, just stop it. |
| 19:52.38 | DreyX | Wow, someone's on their period |
| 19:54.19 | davidw | DreyX, I think the 'u r' style of writing is passe. |
| 19:54.37 | davidw | and jasta's always that way |
| 19:55.11 | DreyX | Oh my bad |
| 19:55.59 | DreyX | He's from Seattle so can't hate on him :) Just a fellow as I am |
| 19:56.11 | davidw | moldy washingtonians |
| 19:56.23 | DreyX | Lol |
| 19:56.49 | bdjnk | I believe that's pronounced seattilites. |
| 19:57.04 | DreyX | Lol |
| 20:02.53 | tomgibara | jasta: I recall Romain saying that calling through to native code in Dalvik is fast (at least for code that forms the native part of the application framework) |
| 20:03.10 | tomgibara | It's possible that they have a mechanism other than JNI for calling through to native code. |
| 20:10.47 | romainguy_ | no we use only JNI |
| 20:21.47 | jasta | tomgibara: "fast" is relative. a call to a Java method and extracting a byte array is quite simply not going to beat a call to fread or read. |
| 20:22.11 | jasta | the only overhead of that read is a to-user copy. |
| 20:22.53 | jasta | i expect, actually, that the byte array extraction is the expensive piece. i didn't verify that a copy had been made. if it had, that would obviously destroy performance. |
| 20:23.02 | jasta | Silly Java programmers assume copies are cheap ;) |
| 20:24.05 | jasta | I should actually check. the last arg to GetByteArrayElements will tell me if it copied... |
| 20:25.05 | jasta | i am also curious what exactly Call<Type>Method() is doing. GetMethodID seems like it would perform the lookup, where Call<Type>Method would simply be a jump and copy for the arguments. |
| 20:25.15 | jasta | But I don't know what sort of voodoo is going on here. |
| 20:27.29 | tomgibara | jasta: I know very little about this stuff, but would guess that a copy needs to be made otherwise the GC might reclaim your array, or move it, while the C code executes. |
| 20:29.04 | jasta | i would think the GC would be signaled to stay the hell away from it once I request it from C code. |
| 20:29.41 | tomgibara | I was thinking that, but was trying to reason how that would work in practice |
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| 20:30.47 | tomgibara | ReleaseByteArrayElements implies just that. |
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| 20:35.16 | jasta | well, that relationship can also be a malloc/free. |
| 20:35.22 | jasta | depending on isCopy |
| 20:35.28 | jasta | I guess I'll just need to change that from NULL and check. |
| 20:36.33 | tomgibara | Yes, just read the docs, you can choose between copying and pinning |
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| 20:43.31 | jasta | you can choose? |
| 20:43.33 | jasta | i thought it chose for you. |
| 20:44.11 | tomgibara | I think where you call: |
| 20:44.11 | tomgibara | GetByteArrayElements(env, b, NULL); |
| 20:44.24 | tomgibara | the last parameter can be: |
| 20:44.35 | jasta | yeah i'm reading now |
| 20:44.55 | tomgibara | JNI_TRUE for copying or JNI_FALSE for pinning |
| 20:46.09 | jasta | i think i used the wrong function, actually |
| 20:46.26 | jasta | GetPrimitiveArrayCritical may be the right choice. |
| 20:47.06 | jasta | "These restrictions make it more likely that the native code will obtain an uncopied version of the array, even if the VM does not support pinning. For example, a VM may temporarily disable garbage collection when the native code is holding a pointer to an array obtained via GetPrimitiveArrayCritical. " |
| 20:48.03 | tomgibara | Depends on your app's profile I guess. |
| 20:48.19 | jasta | if you can fit it into a critical section, then you should apparently. |
| 20:48.44 | jasta | still, i don't see what you're talking about being able to control pinning in J2SE 1.5 |
| 20:49.03 | jasta | isCopy (the last param) simply indicates what the VM did, but does not (according to these docs) give you control over it. |
| 20:49.24 | jasta | GetPrimitiveArrayCritical simply gives you a greater chance because the semantics make it easier for the VM not to have made a copy |
| 20:49.52 | tomgibara | You're right - I wasn't reading very carefully |
| 20:50.21 | jasta | i'm going to still just test whether a copy was made in my example. |
| 20:50.28 | tomgibara | Even then it may need to make a copy, say if the array isn't stored contiguously |
| 20:50.44 | jasta | right, i'm curious to find out if on Android this is true or not |
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| 20:51.43 | tomgibara | It would depend somewhat on the nature of the GC in Dalvik I guess |
| 20:54.07 | tomgibara | Was there any information given about the Dalvik GC at IO? |
| 20:54.27 | jasta | Not really. It was very disappointing. |
| 20:54.32 | jasta | Still, we can test this now :) |
| 20:54.35 | jasta | hacks |
| 20:56.42 | tomgibara | Perhaps a heap-compacting stop-the-world kind of GC |
| 20:56.43 | jasta | interesting, isCopy was true :) |
| 20:56.56 | tomgibara | hmm |
| 20:57.02 | jasta | perhaps we can squeeze some performance out of this afterall. |
| 20:57.12 | jasta | btw, this is on Sun's Java 1.5 that I just tested. |
| 20:57.17 | jasta | so I don't know what Dalvik did just yet |
| 20:57.41 | tomgibara | okay, I'm going to guess false for Dalvik :) |
| 20:57.48 | jasta | i can't easily test this from Dalvik. I'd need to poke through and call Log.d :) |
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| 20:58.05 | tomgibara | On the basis that the GC implementation will be much simpler. |
| 20:58.52 | jasta | tomgibara: Well, what's interesting is that the performance difference on Sun's JVM is roughly the same as Dalvik's running in the emulator. |
| 20:59.05 | jasta | So... ;) |
| 20:59.10 | jasta | But anyway, I will confirm it. |
| 20:59.11 | jasta | Hang on. |
| 20:59.31 | jasta | (It's very hard to confirm because I have to somehow report on the value of isCopy...) |
| 20:59.49 | jasta | well, not very hard ;) |
| 21:08.18 | jasta | GetPrimitiveArrayCritical now is not copying. |
| 21:08.28 | jasta | So, now to find out what Dalvik's behaviour was. |
| 21:09.01 | jasta | the difference without a copy being made is EXTREMELY minimal on Sun's JVM :) |
| 21:09.27 | jasta | as in, it must be slower because I know that it must be, but the margin is undetectable by these numbers. |
| 21:09.51 | jasta | 0.0978 versus 0.1012 |
| 21:10.48 | jasta | brb |
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| 21:14.19 | tomgibara | yes, possibly insignificant |
| 21:23.37 | jasta | i certainly hope so, it would make it an awful lot easier to convince Google to implement this ;) |
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| 21:29.26 | cyrus__ | anyone here use android on an n810 |
| 21:32.53 | jasta | i don't think so. haven't heard anything here. |
| 21:33.02 | jasta | many folks here have used it on the kaiser and vogue, though. |
| 21:44.33 | jasta | mike hasn't been here in a while...hmm.. |
| 21:45.52 | umdk1d4 | yay freewifi on mah n810 |
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| 21:52.16 | jasta | tomgibara: ok... |
| 21:52.35 | jasta | actually, one more test, then results ;) |
| 21:56.32 | jasta | tomgibara: you there? |
| 21:59.51 | rhett_ | hey, when does adc1 phase II end? |
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| 22:01.03 | tomgibara | jasta: am here now |
| 22:06.55 | jasta | tomgibara: So, what I have learned is that Dalvik does not copy using eihter GetByteArrayElements or GetPrimitiveArrayCritical, and the usage of either doesn't seem to have an effect on performance otheriwse. |
| 22:07.28 | jasta | On Sun's JVM on my Ubuntu machine, GetByteArrayElements does copy, and as such changing to GetPrimitiveArrayCritical (which does not copy) is substantially faster, narrowing the margin between the two functions to a miniscule difference on a desktop PC. |
| 22:07.44 | jasta | On the emulator however, the performance difference is massive with the same code running. |
| 22:08.36 | tomgibara | how massive? |
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| 22:11.45 | tomgibara | jasta: from the last figures, you concluded that the difference might still be small enough (as a proportion of the total playback time) to make it feasible, are the figures unchanged and is that still the case? |
| 22:11.49 | jasta | This tells me that actually that it could simply be a deficiency with Dalvik more than an inherent problem with JNI |
| 22:11.54 | jasta | tomgibara: Well, you saw the benchmarks I posted yesterday. |
| 22:12.08 | jasta | That massive. |
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| 22:12.41 | jasta | tomgibara: Oh, my overall conclusion in the context of MediaPlayer is still the same. The overhead of allowing this type of JNI interface is not so great that it significantly affects the bottom line. |
| 22:12.43 | tomgibara | It could be an artifact of the emulation |
| 22:13.01 | tomgibara | or was this on a real device? |
| 22:13.03 | jasta | But it is still unusual to me that we see such a close margin in performance on Sun's JVM and a drastic margin for Dalvik. Dalvik is possibly doing something lame here. |
| 22:13.12 | jasta | this was in the emulator, i'm hoping to try it on a real device now. |
| 22:13.15 | jasta | And fortunately AttractiveApe just arrived :) |
| 22:13.24 | jasta | AttractiveApe: willing to try something for me? |
| 22:16.16 | *** join/#android megapower (n=chatzill@196.205.229.203) |
| 22:16.24 | megapower | hi all |
| 22:17.38 | megapower | I want to build android for arm how i can select the board and the processor and the how to install the cross compiler? |
| 22:18.06 | jasta | megapower: be warned that android is closed source, and so cannot be recompiled for different platforms. |
| 22:18.29 | jasta | some existing hardware just so happens to have a compatible target architecture, but not all. |
| 22:18.43 | jasta | ARM has lots of different architecture versions |
| 22:18.56 | AttractiveApe | jasta: wee bit busy for now, maybe later :( |
| 22:18.59 | AttractiveApe | what do you need done? |
| 22:19.29 | megapower | but it's linux based and just i need to configure the make file isn't it? |
| 22:21.42 | jasta | megapower: Android runs the Linux kernel, but there is an enormous amount of middle-ware compiled from C++ sources specifically for a particular target. |
| 22:22.00 | jasta | Or rather, Android runs atop the Linux kernel. |
| 22:22.17 | jasta | AttractiveApe: I need some JNI stuffs tested, I can e-mail you what I need. |
| 22:22.24 | jasta | just a .so loaded onto the phone and an apk to test it. |
| 22:22.27 | jasta | Just performance benchmarks. |
| 22:22.39 | jasta | I'm not quite ready to send it yet, though. |
| 22:23.06 | megapower | so where i can find a list of the supported architectures and boards? |
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| 22:24.28 | AttractiveApe | iirc, they've told us it's designed for one platform, the HTC Dream, which uses the MSM7500a chipset. |
| 22:24.51 | AttractiveApe | There may be more platforms supported, but that's the only one they've shown us. |
| 22:25.06 | AttractiveApe | jasta: email me what you need me to do, I gotta go again |
| 22:25.06 | AttractiveApe | -.- |
| 22:25.07 | AttractiveApe | bbl |
| 22:29.45 | jasta | megapower: well, as for supported boards, that is going to be a very small set officially, and will be observed from the Linux source found at http://git.android.com |
| 22:29.54 | yakischloba | yay i got my job :) |
| 22:30.15 | jasta | megapower: for supported archs, i think it's ARMv5T, but i can't remember. |
| 22:30.28 | jasta | you can just check the binaries that are on the system image |
| 22:30.51 | megapower | ok, thanks a lot for ur help |
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| 22:44.36 | *** join/#android Dougie187 (n=doug@c-69-244-215-210.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) |
| 22:44.52 | Dougie187 | good afternoon everyone |
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| 22:45.33 | gambler | w.d. yakischloba |
| 22:46.13 | jasta | hey Dougie187 |
| 22:46.23 | Dougie187 | hows it going jasta? |
| 22:46.43 | jasta | pretty OK. |
| 22:47.23 | Dougie187 | ... |
| 22:47.23 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 22:48.25 | Dougie187 | did you play any more last night? |
| 22:48.37 | jasta | no |
| 22:48.59 | Dougie187 | too bad. |
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| 22:52.03 | jasta | Dougie187: I've just been so enthralled in Android again for some reason. |
| 22:52.08 | jasta | Right now I'm fighting with Dalvik hehe |
| 22:52.47 | jasta | trying to figure out why my benchmarks show negligible difference on Sun's JVM (1.5) between native file I/O and using an InputStream. |
| 22:53.12 | jasta | But significant difference on Dalvik. |
| 22:55.52 | jasta | Might be just the emulator being stupid, though. |
| 22:57.30 | romainguy_ | there's something that can slow down JNI calls called "CheckJNI" |
| 22:57.36 | romainguy_ | the emulator has an option to turn this off/on |
| 22:59.05 | jasta | what does it do? |
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| 23:02.44 | acsia | evening |
| 23:03.02 | Dougie187 | Sorry my dad called. |
| 23:05.12 | acsia | how is he? |
| 23:05.55 | acsia | to much tea for this hour |
| 23:06.51 | Dougie187 | hes good. |
| 23:10.21 | jasta | romainguy_: interesting... |
| 23:10.28 | jasta | i'm reading up on what it does in Sun's VM |
| 23:11.48 | jasta | romainguy_: http://blog.chinaunix.net/u1/38994/showart.php?id=1099466 -- where does all this information come from? |
| 23:12.14 | jasta | i can't imagine this is reverse engineered? it references googles apparent android build tree |
| 23:19.26 | tomgibara | jasta: yes, interesting |
| 23:20.34 | romainguy_ | jasta: Ask morrildl |
| 23:20.52 | jasta | about this information? |
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| 23:49.15 | jasta | last.fm indie tag radio is great :) |
| 23:50.54 | Dougie187 | you gonna be on tonight jasta? |
| 23:53.45 | jasta | probably not |
| 23:54.12 | jasta | i won't be home until like 9 tonight |
| 23:54.16 | Dougie187 | bust. |
| 23:54.21 | Dougie187 | well i think im gonna get some dota on. |
| 23:54.22 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 23:54.28 | Dougie187 | bbl |
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