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| 00:45.41 | michaelnovakjr__ | howdy |
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| 02:05.25 | michaelnovakjr_ | howdy |
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| 02:16.52 | michaelnovakjr_ | real quiet in here tonight huh? |
| 02:21.48 | TSchultz55 | hey michaelnovakjr_ |
| 02:22.00 | TSchultz55 | grad school homework :( |
| 02:28.32 | michaelnovakjr_ | TSchultz55: what are you doing for it? |
| 02:28.45 | TSchultz55 | HCI class |
| 02:29.22 | TSchultz55 | and for the individual assignment I'm doing it on Android |
| 02:29.41 | michaelnovakjr_ | nice |
| 02:31.07 | TSchultz55 | what exactly is that white thing you can pull down from the top toolbar? |
| 02:31.18 | TSchultz55 | kinda like a privacy blind or something? |
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| 02:37.42 | michaelnovakjr_ | nope |
| 02:37.46 | michaelnovakjr_ | its the notification manager |
| 02:37.55 | michaelnovakjr_ | that is the OS notifier |
| 02:38.32 | TSchultz55 | the blank white thing? |
| 02:38.38 | michaelnovakjr_ | so if your application registers a notification to the phone the little app icon appears in the bar and when the user pulls it down they see the notification |
| 02:38.56 | michaelnovakjr_ | http://code.google.com/p/weatherphone |
| 02:39.05 | michaelnovakjr_ | i think i have a screenshot of what one looks like |
| 02:39.43 | TSchultz55 | ah interesting |
| 02:40.40 | michaelnovakjr_ | its a pain in the ass to operate in the emulator but when actually using a touch device its not bad at all |
| 02:40.42 | TSchultz55 | yeah i guess i kind of associated pulling into the bottom and having it "stick" taking up the whole screen as some way of locking the device |
| 02:41.03 | TSchultz55 | kind of like that one kind of blind you pull down |
| 02:41.10 | michaelnovakjr_ | i hated it at first |
| 02:41.19 | michaelnovakjr_ | then i tried it on a device and it is actually neat |
| 02:41.58 | TSchultz55 | yeah i guess i misinterpreted the cues |
| 02:42.29 | michaelnovakjr_ | i strongly encourage notifier usage |
| 02:42.42 | michaelnovakjr_ | that is if you need to update the user while your application is not visible :) |
| 02:43.05 | TSchultz55 | yeah I can see how that'd be usefu |
| 02:43.07 | michaelnovakjr_ | the notifications are clickable as well |
| 02:43.16 | michaelnovakjr_ | it brings up your app |
| 02:43.42 | TSchultz55 | sounds cool |
| 02:43.54 | TSchultz55 | so has anyone gotten Android to directly interact with a USB peripheral |
| 02:44.03 | michaelnovakjr_ | not too sure |
| 02:44.05 | TSchultz55 | i think i may have asked this already |
| 02:44.25 | michaelnovakjr_ | i just saw 8GB micro cards for my phone online |
| 02:44.40 | michaelnovakjr_ | definitely going to be cool when i get android on there |
| 02:44.46 | michaelnovakjr_ | flac audio |
| 02:44.47 | michaelnovakjr_ | !! |
| 02:44.52 | TSchultz55 | ah yeah |
| 02:45.04 | TSchultz55 | how much? |
| 02:45.14 | michaelnovakjr_ | 89 bucks with the usb reader |
| 02:45.46 | michaelnovakjr_ | its a little usb stick that the card slips in to hook it up to the computer |
| 02:46.22 | TSchultz55 | ah thats not bad at all |
| 02:46.25 | michaelnovakjr_ | nope |
| 02:46.38 | michaelnovakjr_ | hopefully android is nice to my battery |
| 02:46.47 | michaelnovakjr_ | if so it'll definitely replace my ipod as well |
| 02:46.58 | TSchultz55 | yeah that's what I'm working on now tho - getting a USB device to work if possible |
| 02:47.22 | michaelnovakjr_ | are the usb controllers in the kernel |
| 02:47.23 | michaelnovakjr_ | ? |
| 02:47.42 | TSchultz55 | yeah see I don't see them right now |
| 02:47.50 | TSchultz55 | but some older blog post refer to them being there |
| 02:47.54 | TSchultz55 | possibly in older revisions |
| 02:48.18 | michaelnovakjr_ | do you have the latest kernel code? |
| 02:48.34 | TSchultz55 | i'm assuming with the latest emulator package? |
| 02:48.40 | TSchultz55 | feb. |
| 02:49.29 | michaelnovakjr_ | hm, the kernel code comes with the emulator?? |
| 02:49.55 | michaelnovakjr_ | don't quote me but i think the kernel is also at git.android.com |
| 02:49.58 | TSchultz55 | oh the actual source you mean? |
| 02:50.02 | michaelnovakjr_ | yes |
| 02:50.10 | TSchultz55 | ah no dont have that |
| 02:50.48 | michaelnovakjr_ | i'd check out the kernel code, if usb support is in their it should be registered somewhere in the kernel |
| 02:50.56 | michaelnovakjr_ | in there* |
| 02:51.53 | TSchultz55 | http://git.android.com/?p=kernel.git;a=tree;f=drivers/usb;h=1bac37259f9370e0d6d1601a2d4e6957f632a73c;hb=HEAD |
| 02:52.56 | michaelnovakjr_ | hey what do ya know! |
| 02:53.32 | TSchultz55 | maybe I will do a build from the most recent |
| 02:55.43 | michaelnovakjr_ | that might work |
| 02:55.50 | michaelnovakjr_ | and make sure that tree is included |
| 02:56.07 | michaelnovakjr_ | i haven't messed with the kernel enough to know what the build is like |
| 02:56.30 | michaelnovakjr_ | i do love git though :) |
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| 02:57.45 | TSchultz55 | yeah maybe I'll give it spin |
| 02:58.05 | michaelnovakjr_ | not a bad idea |
| 02:58.25 | michaelnovakjr_ | i have intentions of getting familar with the kernel on android, but not until its more stable |
| 02:59.19 | TSchultz55 | i'll let you know how it goes |
| 02:59.32 | michaelnovakjr_ | cool |
| 02:59.51 | TSchultz55 | not this weekend tho - this weekend I'll be at Penn State |
| 03:00.09 | TSchultz55 | and probably unfit to operate any piece of equipment |
| 03:01.24 | michaelnovakjr_ | :) |
| 03:03.27 | muthu | TSchultz55: even your mobile? ;) |
| 03:04.21 | michaelnovakjr_ | oh yes |
| 03:04.25 | michaelnovakjr_ | especially that |
| 03:04.49 | michaelnovakjr_ | gotta hate when you check your voicemail after a bad night and have messages from people wondering what the hell you were talking about |
| 03:04.58 | michaelnovakjr_ | or even worse calling the wrong people |
| 03:05.05 | muthu | haha.. true |
| 03:05.23 | TSchultz55 | muthu: my current mobile recently had a run-in with a glass of Johnny Walker |
| 03:05.28 | TSchultz55 | so, i'd say no |
| 03:05.30 | michaelnovakjr_ | haha |
| 03:05.32 | TSchultz55 | not even my mobile |
| 03:05.37 | muthu | got it! |
| 03:06.06 | TSchultz55 | it somehow miraculously recovered |
| 03:06.11 | muthu | and worse of all you tend to wake up everyone for a chat in the middle of the night, not good... |
| 03:06.53 | TSchultz55 | yeah that's the first thing I'd do - check to see how I called and what time |
| 03:07.03 | TSchultz55 | and possibly follow up with an apology call |
| 03:07.11 | michaelnovakjr_ | haha |
| 03:07.23 | michaelnovakjr_ | a possibly awkward apology cal |
| 03:07.24 | michaelnovakjr_ | l |
| 03:07.39 | TSchultz55 | haha usually |
| 03:08.58 | TSchultz55 | alrighty bed for me |
| 03:09.03 | TSchultz55 | night |
| 03:10.35 | michaelnovakjr_ | night |
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| 03:30.33 | michaelnovakjr_ | how's it going romainguy |
| 03:30.48 | romainguy | good |
| 03:30.55 | romainguy | lots of work :) |
| 03:31.49 | michaelnovakjr_ | :) |
| 03:31.52 | michaelnovakjr_ | work is good |
| 03:32.59 | michaelnovakjr_ | i'm excited they have an 8GB micro card for my phone! |
| 03:33.09 | romainguy | hehe |
| 03:33.10 | michaelnovakjr_ | now all i need is android on it and i'm set |
| 03:33.20 | michaelnovakjr_ | i've become a fan of flac |
| 03:33.32 | michaelnovakjr_ | and the ipod obviously doesn't support it :) |
| 03:33.59 | romainguy | I would use flac if I had the equipment and ears to make it worth it :) |
| 03:34.12 | michaelnovakjr_ | :) |
| 03:35.32 | michaelnovakjr_ | file sizes aren't too bad.... 64 songs is 1 gig |
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| 14:23.48 | kushal_12_27_200 | Is google building or sponsoring any ''production'' level hardware for the android platform? Where has this process gone yet? |
| 14:24.03 | michaelnovakjr | nowhere |
| 14:24.51 | kushal_12_27_200 | :( |
| 14:25.46 | kushal_12_27_200 | openmoko has gta02. maybe we could use that as well? |
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| 14:45.05 | zhobbs_ | kushal_12_27_200: google's just making the software |
| 14:46.57 | anno^da | I'm really interested how they want to integrate the phone into the OS of the users. I mean the iPhone is fully integrated into OSX even with the latest 2.0 firmware and the latest osx updates. Some integration of the Android phones would be nice as well. Does someone know if Google's talking to MS, Apple or even Cannonical or SUSE |
| 14:47.37 | michaelnovakjr | anno^da: i don't think that has been announced yet |
| 14:48.23 | michaelnovakjr | i wouldn't worry though, there will definitely be integration |
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| 14:55.04 | anno^da | Hmm yeah I hope so. I'm looking at the iPhone integration at the moment and it is defintely great. Excluding the knowledge that it's a closed system and just one device. |
| 14:56.05 | anno^da | (and the apps in the app store look very polished due to the great standard UI widgets of the iPhone SDK) |
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| 15:56.58 | alex2308 | everything apple sells looks shiny and great |
| 15:57.08 | alex2308 | thats how their marketing works |
| 16:01.53 | anno^da | Yeah but it is not just marketing, working withe products is fun. Much more than working with a crappy looking app |
| 16:02.03 | alex2308 | depends |
| 16:02.21 | anno^da | Thats the reason why I switched from Linux back to OSX as my work station. |
| 16:02.39 | alex2308 | ill never get an ipod because of itunes |
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| 16:02.43 | michaelnovakjr | yea |
| 16:02.50 | michaelnovakjr | iTunes blows |
| 16:02.52 | michaelnovakjr | flac!! |
| 16:02.58 | anno^da | iTunes sucks thats right :) |
| 16:03.02 | anno^da | Amarok |
| 16:03.03 | anno^da | ! |
| 16:03.04 | anno^da | ;) |
| 16:03.27 | michaelnovakjr | i like rhythmbox |
| 16:03.41 | alex2308 | and actually i like windows, because i can play games from time to time |
| 16:03.48 | anno^da | The problem is that iTunes fits the needs of most of the customers. (ok they dont know sth else :) 9 |
| 16:04.01 | alex2308 | so, i dont like osx |
| 16:04.14 | anno^da | I'm not playing so that doesnt matter at all :) |
| 16:04.19 | anno^da | (for me) |
| 16:04.22 | michaelnovakjr | i don't mind OS X but its not my first choice |
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| 16:04.46 | michaelnovakjr | I can make my Linux UI look way better than OS X |
| 16:04.51 | alex2308 | true |
| 16:04.53 | anno^da | For video producing and audio production its my first choice |
| 16:04.59 | alex2308 | my ubuntu looks much better |
| 16:05.04 | michaelnovakjr | audio production not even |
| 16:05.11 | michaelnovakjr | have you heard of Ardour? |
| 16:05.16 | alex2308 | adobe premiere? |
| 16:05.17 | anno^da | Yeah I used it |
| 16:05.34 | alex2308 | anyway, workday is over, im heading home |
| 16:05.37 | michaelnovakjr | i work on the 'real' ardour os x port |
| 16:05.40 | anno^da | But I always had problems with the hardware interfaces :/ |
| 16:05.43 | alex2308 | till friday you nerds ;) |
| 16:05.47 | michaelnovakjr | :) |
| 16:05.54 | anno^da | bye alex2308 |
| 16:05.54 | anno^da | :) |
| 16:06.01 | alex2308 | l8er android dudez |
| 16:06.22 | anno^da | The problem with Adobe Premiere is that it is far away from Final Cut Pro |
| 16:06.28 | michaelnovakjr | yea |
| 16:06.32 | michaelnovakjr | i will agree |
| 16:06.45 | michaelnovakjr | i am planning a Linux open source competitor to Final Cut Pro |
| 16:07.07 | anno^da | And I don't understand why no other company creates nice hardware :) |
| 16:07.19 | anno^da | Thats sth I dont understand at all |
| 16:07.23 | michaelnovakjr | what do you mean by nice hardware? |
| 16:07.30 | anno^da | hardware design |
| 16:07.42 | anno^da | 90% of the notebooks look like crappy industry design |
| 16:07.52 | michaelnovakjr | the new xps design is nice |
| 16:08.06 | michaelnovakjr | as for desktops, i built mine |
| 16:08.06 | anno^da | blown up, full of stickers and so on |
| 16:09.35 | anno^da | So I'm out now |
| 16:09.40 | anno^da | Playing tennis :) |
| 16:09.46 | anno^da | today it is NOT raining |
| 16:09.48 | anno^da | :D |
| 16:10.13 | anno^da | bye |
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| 16:19.17 | cutmasta | hu all |
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| 16:50.29 | jasta | morning all |
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| 16:50.36 | michaelnovakjr | morning |
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| 16:51.54 | zhobbs_ | lol, http://www.geekculture.com/joyoftech/joyarchives/1125.html |
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| 16:55.16 | yakischloba | haha |
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| 17:18.21 | jasta | it seems that the rest of the community is finally starting to pick up on the fact that this lack of communication is troublesome |
| 17:18.29 | jasta | i cant believe it took 6 months ;) |
| 17:31.47 | zhobbs_ | it's getting pretty bad |
| 17:34.20 | zhobbs_ | they could make the situation a lot better with a blog post on the subject |
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| 17:40.44 | jasta | zhobbs_: The post from davidw expressed my opinions quite well. The most likely culprit here is bumbling incompetency :) |
| 17:40.48 | jasta | likely far away from the engineering staff |
| 17:41.19 | romainguy_ | what post? |
| 17:41.31 | jasta | http://journal.dedasys.com/articles/2008/07/09/google-android-and-the-case-of-the-missing-communication |
| 17:42.24 | jasta | "Inept bumbling is a far more likely explanation in most cases, including this one." -- that quote is what i was referring to ;) |
| 17:43.29 | romainguy | ah |
| 17:43.31 | romainguy | same hold same hold |
| 17:43.43 | jasta | i'm not familiar with that expression? |
| 17:44.59 | romainguy | argh |
| 17:45.00 | romainguy | old |
| 17:45.01 | romainguy | not hold |
| 17:45.26 | romainguy | you can read Jean-Baptiste's blog entry: http://jbq.livejournal.com/151129.html |
| 17:46.03 | jasta | romainguy: the only newsworthy event here is that Digit posted his, erm, opinion on the subject. |
| 17:46.18 | jasta | but i just enjoyed davidw summarizing my sentiment so well |
| 17:48.42 | jasta | romainguy: reading this post, all this talk on the application openness being unprecedented is silly to me |
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| 17:48.47 | jasta | most smartphone platforms are currently this way. |
| 17:49.41 | jasta | the real difference is, perhaps, that the community will generate large amounts of example work that demonstrates the flexibility. combined with Google's hopefully superior documentation, the platfrom can be utilized more openly, but isn't actually more open to third party development technically. |
| 17:49.54 | morrildl | jasta: heh heh |
| 17:49.59 | jasta | Windows Mobile, for example, is quite flexible. The home screen can be replaced or augmented, so too can the dialer. |
| 17:50.01 | morrildl | as usual, it depends on your definition of "open" |
| 17:50.06 | jasta | Third party dev is possible without ceritifcation. |
| 17:50.28 | morrildl | the issue with WinMo, for instance, is that there are not any free tools for it, at least last time I checked |
| 17:50.32 | jasta | The big difference that we hope to see is that Windows Mobile has no respectable community exploiting these features in the public. |
| 17:50.51 | morrildl | jasta: right, the difference is the total package |
| 17:50.58 | morrildl | there is no part of Android that will be closed |
| 17:51.17 | jasta | morrildl: Well actually, there are. They just aren't "fancy", like Visual Studio. There's a free C# compiler though, that will work to let you write and test Windows Mobile software. |
| 17:51.33 | morrildl | so whether that's "more open" than another platform is a matter of personal inclination |
| 17:51.34 | jasta | morrildl: I don't think that's the difference at all. I think the difference is what we all hope to happen after launch. |
| 17:51.55 | jasta | That is, the difference is that Android hopes to rally a community to promote openness in all areas of the platform. |
| 17:52.04 | morrildl | that's why we know better than to just throw out some source code and expect magic to happen, and why we are spending so much time on the first device |
| 17:52.22 | jasta | Windows Mobile doesn't have that, but is otherwise technically capable of most that Android is. |
| 17:52.27 | morrildl | yup |
| 17:52.46 | jasta | Right, but if the community is the gem, then perhaps it's time to start engaging them? :) |
| 17:52.48 | davidw | I'm still pretty happy with how Android is going, but that SDK business was a speed bump |
| 17:52.48 | morrildl | From the carriers' perspective, Android is probably for more technically interesting than it is to an average ISV-style developer |
| 17:53.21 | morrildl | The SDK business is complicated, sadly |
| 17:53.53 | zhobbs_ | I haven't seen that post by Digit before |
| 17:53.57 | morrildl | It's actually not "inept bumbling", though I am certainly not going to fault anyone for believing that anyway even if I say it ;) |
| 17:53.58 | davidw | morrildl, well, we're smart people, explain it to us, visibly and publicly. |
| 17:54.06 | morrildl | davidw: exactly. I *can't* |
| 17:54.13 | morrildl | ...which is the issue. |
| 17:54.22 | morrildl | there's no one here who doesn't know exactly what hte cost is |
| 17:54.22 | davidw | morrildl, ok, that's what I view as inept bumbling then |
| 17:54.29 | morrildl | no no |
| 17:54.38 | jasta | I do sincerely believe that Android has a chance to be different, but only in spirit and by convention. The biggest reason that Linux development is so much easier and more exciting is because of the folks that are coalescing around it. The collective thought process of those individuals makes it so great. |
| 17:54.38 | morrildl | it's not that I am not permitted by some fool in upper management |
| 17:54.47 | morrildl | we *cannot* really talk about it |
| 17:54.56 | morrildl | but as I said, the why is irrelevant :) |
| 17:55.43 | morrildl | For instance, PR tried the tack of saying "it's too buggy" basically, but we put the kybosh on that |
| 17:55.45 | zhobbs_ | I think it boils down to manpower...I don't think they have the spare manpower to work on the public sdk |
| 17:55.49 | michaelnovakjr | morrildl: so you should just hire us! |
| 17:55.56 | morrildl | ...because it's demonstrably false: it's not so buggy that we can't give it to some people |
| 17:56.09 | davidw | zhobbs_, ok, that's fair enough, come out and say something |
| 17:56.11 | jasta | So, my point is simply that the community is the important key. A wealth of open sharing of ideas, solutions, and projects is very important ot the success of a platform which is not technically any more capable than existing products. |
| 17:56.19 | zhobbs_ | davidw: I agree! |
| 17:56.22 | morrildl | I'm probably skirting a little close to what I should not be saying here, but... |
| 17:56.47 | morrildl | Manpower is a component of it, but not the entire story |
| 17:57.09 | michaelnovakjr | ah |
| 17:57.17 | davidw | goes to have another glass of wine and make silly faces at the baby |
| 17:57.32 | michaelnovakjr | morrildl: so why not hire us? :) |
| 17:58.04 | morrildl | michaelnovakjr: I can certainly enter anyone who's interested into the recruiting system ;) |
| 17:58.14 | michaelnovakjr | :) |
| 17:58.24 | davidw | morrildl, ok, but these things just get me more and more confused, and whatever the "why's", in an open source community, you can't have secrets like that |
| 17:58.28 | michaelnovakjr | who better than your hardcore android nerds? |
| 17:58.40 | davidw | morrildl, we're willing to wait for it to be 'truly open source', as I wrote |
| 17:58.44 | morrildl | davidw: yup, and like I said I realize it doesn't make any difference |
| 17:58.54 | morrildl | this is not me explaining stuff |
| 17:58.57 | jasta | morrildl: you once said early on in these discussions that you wondered if it would have been better for Google not to call this an open project yet. |
| 17:59.03 | morrildl | this is me having a conversation with developers |
| 17:59.13 | jasta | I hope you realize now that you were thinking in the right area ;) |
| 17:59.33 | davidw | so we're ok with compromises and explanations and 'not yets', but weird communications are suboptimal. But I guess if you guys realize that and can't do anything, there's no use belaboring the point |
| 17:59.45 | morrildl | We agree that the communications are weird. |
| 17:59.50 | jasta | To claim openness is to imply a contract of openness. There is no such contract. |
| 17:59.54 | michaelnovakjr | i can understand that communications are weird |
| 18:00.02 | morrildl | We don't want them to be weird. |
| 18:00.08 | michaelnovakjr | of course |
| 18:00.13 | morrildl | And yet... they continue to be weird. |
| 18:00.13 | jasta | morrildl: Who is "we", exactly? You? |
| 18:00.19 | michaelnovakjr | and they probably wouldn't be if the word open wasn't used |
| 18:00.24 | morrildl | We is Android, everyone up to and including Andy Rubin |
| 18:00.30 | davidw | ... but our alien overlords stole our tinfoil hats and we can't escape the mind rays forcing us to be weird ... ?;-) |
| 18:00.39 | morrildl | davidw: ;) |
| 18:00.47 | davidw | ok, wine, wife and 'mohrs' |
| 18:00.49 | morrildl | that's actually.... funnier than you know :) |
| 18:01.07 | zhobbs_ | I'm assuming that Google is being gagged by an OHA member...probably t-mobile or HTC |
| 18:01.19 | jasta | morrildl: The collective of powers responsible for decision making at Google and on this project do, in fact, demand that communication is weird. |
| 18:01.23 | michaelnovakjr | i think call it open was the a bigger issue than one could have not predicted |
| 18:01.26 | jasta | It is, ultimately and all things considered, what they "want". |
| 18:01.42 | jasta | So don't presume otherwise just because you and your immediate peers are displeased. |
| 18:02.00 | morrildl | jasta: uh |
| 18:02.20 | morrildl | jasta: I don't name-drop idly. I actually talked to Andy Rubin about this yesterday |
| 18:02.31 | morrildl | heh heh |
| 18:02.39 | jasta | morrildl: It is a simple process of behaviour. If I want X, and you want Y, and we decide on Z, then we WANTED Z, all things considered. |
| 18:02.40 | morrildl | anyway this is what I was whining about in my blog |
| 18:03.07 | morrildl | I can say stuff and people don't believe it, but having been there I understand why, now :) |
| 18:03.59 | morrildl | jasta: that's assuming a closed system |
| 18:03.59 | morrildl | ...and that probably is just about as far as I can go. :) |
| 18:04.25 | jasta | morrildl: no, it's not. It's assuming the collective of all individuals capable of providing input. |
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| 18:04.41 | zhobbs_ | well, I feel for you morrildl...I think you're probably in a touch spot for a couple months until more is said by the vendors/carriers |
| 18:04.46 | zhobbs_ | tough* |
| 18:04.55 | jasta | Because obviously, we aren't in that collective, and I think that people you don't know are. |
| 18:05.25 | morrildl | hahahaha |
| 18:05.32 | morrildl | that's also funnier than you know :) |
| 18:05.44 | jasta | I don't see the humor, Dan. |
| 18:05.53 | morrildl | and I realize at this point I am being gratuitously mysterious, so I'll stop :) |
| 18:06.10 | jasta | I see you trying to excuse the project using your team as the only proxy. That excuses nothing, and appeases no one. |
| 18:06.22 | morrildl | but the takeaway here is that there's no one involved who doesn't want an SDK. but some gears are turning, and it's going to take some time to turn |
| 18:06.38 | jasta | That statement is logically false. |
| 18:06.42 | morrildl | jasta: with respect to your position, I think you need to not assume you know what the team looks like |
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| 18:11.59 | jasta | You put forward that the collective of powers has reached a consensus but is unwilling or unable to agree to their consensus. That is a false condition. |
| 18:11.59 | jasta | morrildl: I don't need to assume what the team looks like. I need only assume that I understand the definition of the word consensus. Where you do not. |
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| 18:11.59 | jasta | Either a consensus has been reached, or it has not. If, as you say, it has been reached and the consensus is to release an SDK now, then it would be so. That consensus was not reached by the governing bodies. |
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| 18:12.00 | jasta | This is a simple exercise in semantics and logic. You are not permitted to avoid it by asserting claims which contradict reality. |
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| 18:12.00 | jasta | Unless of course you expect for us to disbelieve you, and are not being sincere. |
| 18:12.00 | jasta | I'd be happy to defend my assertions after what is not known becomes known. I am confident my logic will remain correct. |
| 18:12.45 | zhobbs_ | wonder why this didn't come up at the fireside chat...I'd like to have seen Andy respond to some of these questions |
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| 18:14.05 | jasta | i actually wanted to have said something, but i ultimately became discouraged by prior events. also, i had to catch my flight. |
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| 18:15.37 | jasta | The answers demonstrated by the fireside chat, and also combining conversations with Dan and Jason prior to that, led me to a reasonable conclusion that I would get a run-around answer and it would require extremely elevated hostility to get my point across to the audience. |
| 18:16.46 | jasta | Which I felt would have been unnecessary and inappropriate. |
| 18:20.29 | morrildl | jasta: you're pretty much over the top now |
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| 18:25.16 | zhobbs_ | morrildl: blink once if there is an internal struggle between google and another OHA member |
| 18:25.30 | morrildl | Hmm? no |
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| 18:26.46 | morrildl | there's certainly no conflict of that sort |
| 18:27.43 | zhobbs_ | k |
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| 18:59.09 | jasta | morrildl: I'm "over the top" now? |
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| 19:07.39 | davidw | jasta, like sylvester stallone |
| 19:08.14 | davidw | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over_the_Top |
| 19:08.25 | davidw | > starring Sylvester Stallone, produced and directed by Menahem Golan about a long haul truck driver who tries to win back his alienated son while becoming a champion arm wrestler. |
| 19:10.05 | yakischloba | har |
| 19:10.26 | davidw | > Although not highly regarded for its cinematic merits, it has been suggested that Over The Top falls into the "so bad it's good" category |
| 19:11.01 | michaelnovakjr | haha |
| 19:20.51 | jasta | I'm just getting so frustrated by all this tongue-in-cheek secret nonsense. |
| 19:21.25 | jasta | And I'm especially irritated that he speaks from this blameless superior position, as though it isn't really Google who is making this situation it's bad, it's some unknown deity. |
| 19:21.36 | jasta | this situation so bad* |
| 19:22.18 | jasta | And we're just supposed to accept that reasoning as valid and sensible. |
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| 19:29.47 | jasta | Actually, it's a lot easier to just be complacent with him not saying anything at all. Unless there is real news to report, just be quiet to keep the peace. |
| 19:38.15 | morrildl | jasta: as I've said several times, I don't expect you to change your opinion |
| 19:38.27 | morrildl | I am a developer, shooting the shit with other develoeprs |
| 19:38.30 | morrildl | there are things I can't say |
| 19:38.54 | morrildl | the business world is sometimes silly and obnoxious, and this is one of those times |
| 19:38.58 | morrildl | I'm not "excusing" anything |
| 19:39.41 | morrildl | but it's a little over the top to start arguing about semantics and "reality" |
| 19:40.23 | morrildl | Whether it's intentional, ineptitude, or unavoidable circumstances is irrelevant, since it doesn't change the fact that rightt now there is no SDK |
| 19:40.45 | morrildl | but if just chatting and hearing as much as I can tell you isn't worth it to you, then just leave it alone |
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| 19:43.14 | jasta | morrildl: I wasn't arguing about the SDK, I was only arguing semantics because I was frustrated by what *YOU* were saying. |
| 19:43.25 | morrildl | okay |
| 19:43.27 | jasta | Don't excuse Google, the OHA, or the platform just because you don't agree with the situation. |
| 19:43.38 | jasta | It isn't truthful or genuine, and it's frankly annoying to hear. |
| 19:44.06 | morrildl | jasta: You've missed the point. I have not told you anything that is untrue, in ingenuine |
| 19:44.27 | jasta | [10:59] <morrildl> We agree that the communications are weird. |
| 19:44.28 | morrildl | I will say it again, point blank and straight up: everyone involved realizes that the lack of an SDK is problem for developers, and it's a bad situation |
| 19:44.32 | jasta | [11:00] <morrildl> We don't want them to be weird. |
| 19:44.49 | morrildl | that is everyone, from me, through Andy Rubin, the head of the project |
| 19:45.02 | morrildl | The reasons why are unfortunately something we can't talk about |
| 19:45.03 | jasta | I told you, "We" to us doesn't include that group. |
| 19:45.16 | michaelnovakjr | he said it did before |
| 19:46.10 | morrildl | I'm sorry that doesn't sit well with you, but that's the reality. |
| 19:46.19 | jasta | We see Android only as a single, concrete entity. We don't see Google, your peers, the OHA, we see the thing that it is. Whoever makes this decision, someone decided it ought not release a new SDK now. |
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| 19:47.06 | jasta | And that no one should communicate formally with the public about that. |
| 19:47.58 | jasta | We know which group doesn't support this decision, and we know that you're in it. |
| 19:48.13 | davidw | being content to wait for hardware, I'm actually a bit more confused by the communications than the actual SDK, but this is going around in circles |
| 19:48.30 | michaelnovakjr | its all speculation though |
| 19:48.38 | michaelnovakjr | no one knows except google |
| 19:49.00 | jasta | morrildl: My point is, Android as an entity does not sit blameless simply because you can find a group of people who thinks this is stupid. |
| 19:49.02 | michaelnovakjr | assuming dan is in the group is as good as a guess as what he had for lunch |
| 19:49.31 | jasta | michaelnovakjr: Well, he has said that he doesn't like it. I assume he wouldn't lie about that :) |
| 19:49.31 | yakischloba | he had hot dogs. |
| 19:50.03 | morrildl | jasta: you keep getting hung up on this blame thing |
| 19:50.12 | davidw | who *would* like being continually pestered by jasta?:-) |
| 19:50.20 | morrildl | I'm not trying to tell you that OMG there really IS an SDK out there somewhere, hiding from you |
| 19:50.27 | morrildl | I'm not saying it doesn't suck |
| 19:50.50 | morrildl | I'm just saying that we wish we could release one publicly, but we haven't been able to do that |
| 19:51.08 | jasta | I'm telling you that is only true for certain values of "we". |
| 19:51.24 | morrildl | ...which you are not in a position to say |
| 19:51.43 | yakischloba | and theres some silly shady reason that no one can offer an explanation as to _why_? |
| 19:51.49 | jasta | Yes, I am. This goes back to my earlier logical assertion independent of the particulars of this conversation. |
| 19:51.53 | morrildl | yakischloba: basically, yes :) |
| 19:52.50 | yakischloba | morrildl: that sure makes poor relationships with the developer community and depletes trust in the conglomerate that is responsible for Android :/ |
| 19:53.08 | morrildl | yakischloba: yeah, it's definitely not ideal |
| 19:53.39 | jasta | morrildl: Do you understand why I got "over the top" with my logical assertion? It makes no sense to claim that "we" have reached a consensus and yet "we" do not agree with it. |
| 19:53.59 | jasta | The only way what you say is true is for certain values of "we" which doesn't include folks making decisions about Android! |
| 19:54.23 | jasta | Meaning, we sub 1 has a consensus that we sub 2 doesn't have :) |
| 19:54.24 | michaelnovakjr | can you prove that |
| 19:54.28 | yakischloba | morrildl: How could someone feel comfortable investing their time into a package that they can't get a straight answer about? |
| 19:54.31 | jasta | Yes, it's an easy logical proof. |
| 19:55.15 | jasta | michaelnovakjr: By the definition of consensus, it is an agreement reached by a group. That group cannot both agree to behave one way, and simultaneously disagree to behave that way. |
| 19:55.24 | michaelnovakjr | why not |
| 19:55.32 | michaelnovakjr | people shouldn't smoke but they still do |
| 19:55.34 | jasta | Because it fails the definition. An agreement is not a disagreement. |
| 19:55.39 | michaelnovakjr | and they know they shouldn't |
| 19:55.46 | davidw | yakischloba, I think he and supposedly others get that... but the alien mind control device won't let them talk about the reasons for keeping secrets |
| 19:55.52 | jasta | Actually "people shouldn't smoke" is not a consensus, because it's not an agreement reached by all. |
| 19:55.54 | davidw | so this discussion is basically at an impasse |
| 19:56.07 | michaelnovakjr | but the people that make the decision feel that way |
| 19:56.09 | jasta | You demonstrated why morrildl is wrong. Because one group believes people shouldn't smoke, but not everyone capable of smoking is in that group. |
| 19:56.24 | michaelnovakjr | think of the people who smoke |
| 19:56.34 | michaelnovakjr | there are people that feel they shouldn't but still do |
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| 19:56.51 | morrildl | yakischloba: You asked rhetorically perhaps, but yes that's the key issue. I'd also be skeptical. |
| 19:56.54 | michaelnovakjr | if i was to say smoking is bad i shouldn't do it, but then in 5 minutes i go downstairs and light one up |
| 19:57.11 | davidw | I think most people would smoke - if you heat them up enough. |
| 19:57.13 | michaelnovakjr | i agree i shouldn't but i still do it |
| 19:57.18 | jasta | michaelnovakjr: That isn't a genuine expression, though. They only say that from socila conditioning. |
| 19:57.23 | morrildl | The best I can say now is that it is temporary, and once a few stupid obnoxious business gears grind out, it'll be full speed ahead |
| 19:58.03 | yakischloba | Just goes to show that money talks and anyone without it will always come in second on the priority list. |
| 19:58.20 | jasta | yakischloba: Hey now, don't forget sex. |
| 19:58.22 | jasta | ;) |
| 19:58.46 | yakischloba | Money buys sex |
| 19:58.47 | jasta | There are a lot of different types of currency ;) |
| 19:58.54 | yakischloba | So like I said, money comes #1 |
| 19:59.35 | jasta | Well, no, my priority list is often going to favor sexy women over rich men. :) |
| 19:59.57 | yakischloba | As a rich man you'd more often attract sexy women :) |
| 20:00.00 | morrildl | Anyway, I'll agree to disagree with jasta over certain matters of specifics ;) |
| 20:00.15 | jasta | I think you'll agree to reject sensible logic, then. |
| 20:00.29 | jasta | morrildl: You do realize the point of all this right? |
| 20:00.40 | morrildl | jasta: killing time waiting for a new SDK? ;) |
| 20:00.43 | jasta | I'm trying to demonstrate that we only care what decisions are possible, not that you didn't make them. |
| 20:00.51 | morrildl | jasta: I understand that |
| 20:01.04 | jasta | So that "we" nonsense bothers me, since it is only true for certain values of "we". |
| 20:01.06 | morrildl | Like I said, I don't expect yo u to go home tonight full of rainbows and sunshine |
| 20:01.17 | morrildl | I'm just telling you as much as I can |
| 20:01.28 | *** part/#android capster (n=theserap@ip-78-94-237-68.hsi.ish.de) |
| 20:01.32 | morrildl | take it or leave it :) |
| 20:01.54 | jasta | I choose to leave it, and I think by this conversation I hope to convince you to stop giving us this type of exchange. |
| 20:02.10 | jasta | Real information or avoid the subject entirely. |
| 20:02.15 | yakischloba | morrildl: Makes me wonder why you get into this at all, with what you're 'allowed to say' always falling short of what people want to hear. |
| 20:02.33 | jasta | Exactly, why not just say nothing? Please! |
| 20:03.14 | michaelnovakjr | because people bring it up |
| 20:03.27 | michaelnovakjr | if we talked about the trees it wouldn't come up :) |
| 20:04.13 | f00f- | jasta is back |
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| 20:04.52 | jasta | hmm? |
| 20:06.40 | jasta | Existing in the mobile industry is such a bitch. |
| 20:07.47 | morrildl | jasta: word |
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| 20:15.04 | f00f- | why is eveyrone so tight-lipped about the ADC |
| 20:15.24 | jasta | what about it? |
| 20:15.24 | yakischloba | greedy toads |
| 20:15.33 | mickrobk_ | u mean about the one in the spring? |
| 20:15.52 | f00f- | i mean the current one |
| 20:16.08 | f00f- | re. SDK |
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| 20:17.51 | michaelnovakjr | oh boy here we go again |
| 20:18.46 | yakischloba | Its ok one of these days I'll actually start learning this stuff and bother the channel with noob questions all day. |
| 20:19.35 | michaelnovakjr | :) |
| 20:19.37 | michaelnovakjr | please! |
| 20:22.24 | jasta | yakischloba: it would be preferred to this nonsense |
| 20:23.45 | yakischloba | heh. |
| 20:28.11 | jasta | f00f-: how is the ADC going, btw? |
| 20:28.31 | jasta | i get the sense that you guys haven't been working very hard, but maybe that's just because we're no longer in the same boat. |
| 20:28.58 | f00f- | jasta: i slacked the 1st month, and now we're really ramping up |
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| 20:30.07 | f00f- | i'm really excited about publishing the app, i'm already being convinced that it'll be useful |
| 20:30.50 | jasta | i should hope so :) |
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| 20:48.45 | anno^da | http://www.samsung.com/us/support/spec/supportSpecSearch.do?_site_cd=us&group=mobilephones&group_cd=&type=mobilephones&type_cd=&subtype=sprint&subtype_cd=&model_nm=SPH-M800&dType=&vType=R&mType=UM&model_cd=SPH-M800ZKASPR&fullspec=F&prd_ia_cd=01010200&acc_ia_fl=null&disp_nm=Instinct++(SPH-m800)&menu=&isEqualsY=&sel_model_cd=SPH-M800ZKASPR |
| 20:48.53 | anno^da | look close at the screens ;) |
| 21:00.53 | zhobbs_ | anno^da: what are we looking at? |
| 21:02.27 | zhobbs_ | bbl |
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| 23:34.37 | *** topic/#android is I want this ported to Android: http://forum.lolcode.com/viewtopic.php?id=51 Any takers? |
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