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| 02:25.05 | alex211 | hi there |
| 02:25.20 | alex211 | anyone knows how to port a javaeME app to Android ? |
| 02:25.40 | alex211 | I know there is this app called ME4Android, but theres no way I can find some help |
| 02:31.41 | dmoffett | you might ask during the working day US time when more people are active. |
| 02:32.13 | dmoffett | I have seen some j2me developers contribute to the conversation. |
| 02:32.32 | dmoffett | Meanwhile " |
| 02:33.06 | dmoffett | Meanwhile "if 6 were 9" |
| 02:36.45 | alex211 | allright thx |
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| 05:06.43 | gambler | where are the bouncy castle classes in android |
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| 05:14.37 | blaked | any developers extremely familiar with the android sdk PM me |
| 05:14.55 | blaked | im looking for developers for a rather simple but large scale project |
| 05:15.35 | AttractiveApe | Why not just tell people what you're wanting here? |
| 05:15.56 | blaked | without going into specifics |
| 05:16.01 | AttractiveApe | Seeing that android isn't released, and that this is probably a dev channel, that would seem like the best course of action. |
| 05:16.32 | blaked | gps would be a main aspect of the application |
| 05:17.04 | blaked | i can't go into specifics right now |
| 05:17.16 | AttractiveApe | The current public elease of the android sdk doesn't have the gps api implemented. |
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| 06:33.12 | foo | markf: ping |
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| 07:32.33 | jscinoz | hmm |
| 07:32.43 | jscinoz | just wondering |
| 07:33.06 | jscinoz | with this Dalvik VM, does android basically need apps to be made specially for it? |
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| 07:33.25 | jscinoz | unlike openmoko where its a standard X server and most things *should* work with a recompile (hardware permitting) |
| 07:33.58 | jasta | jscinoz: yes, it requires apps specifically compiled to the bytecode. |
| 07:34.07 | jscinoz | >_< |
| 07:34.11 | jasta | provided tools translate java bytecote to it |
| 07:34.19 | jscinoz | hmm |
| 07:34.26 | jasta | given the platform, though, it would be possible to add support for other languages later |
| 07:34.30 | jasta | not now, since source is unavailable |
| 07:34.39 | jscinoz | i'm gonna get me a htc touch pro when it comes out and put either android or openmoko on it |
| 07:34.54 | jasta | why do you think you will be able to put either on it? do you know that it is fully supported under linux? |
| 07:34.59 | jscinoz | I realise |
| 07:35.26 | jscinoz | i don't mind so much about things not working I use an n95 as my main phone it'll probably just be for testing |
| 07:35.35 | alex133 | Does anyone know how to port a J2ME app to the Android platform ? |
| 07:35.42 | jasta | what if nothing works? like the touch screen? |
| 07:35.48 | jscinoz | and there's a linux distro for HTC phones already existing called xanadux so it cant be too hard to get openmoko working |
| 07:35.53 | jasta | alex133: yes, by porting a J2ME app to the android platform. |
| 07:36.07 | jscinoz | jasta I'll figure something out, I've fair experience in driver development |
| 07:36.13 | jasta | jscinoz: You should research this furtehr. You are confusing a distro with drivers. |
| 07:36.14 | alex133 | hehe thx, I meant not to have to change any line of code |
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| 07:36.24 | alex133 | like an emulator or something |
| 07:36.25 | jasta | alex133: that's not porting. |
| 07:36.40 | jscinoz | jasta, Agreed, its purely hypothetical at the moment, since neither the hardware nor software is out right now :P |
| 07:36.45 | alex133 | whats the real definition of porting then ? |
| 07:37.29 | jscinoz | alex133, recoding something so its native to a platform |
| 07:37.42 | jscinoz | ie what icculous did with quake 3 |
| 07:37.52 | jscinoz | or however the hell he spells that tag |
| 07:38.00 | alex133 | allright so it means rewriting some of the application (at least the user interface) right ? |
| 07:38.12 | jscinoz | most likely |
| 07:38.15 | jasta | bed time |
| 07:38.21 | jasta | night folks |
| 07:38.23 | jscinoz | night jasta |
| 07:39.02 | alex133 | k, so lets say I dont wanna port but just emulate a J2ME app on Android, how would u guys do ? |
| 07:39.24 | alex133 | cuz my boss is asking to port a J2ME app on Android but I have to keep the same interfq |
| 07:39.29 | jscinoz | Not sure, i've never really played around much with android yet |
| 07:39.34 | alex133 | the same interfaces that the J2ME app, its so twisted |
| 07:39.43 | jscinoz | there could be something useful in the SDK documentation |
| 07:39.46 | jscinoz | not sure though |
| 07:40.27 | jscinoz | sorry i couldn't be of more help |
| 07:40.52 | alex133 | its okay thank you ! |
| 07:40.58 | jscinoz | :) |
| 07:41.22 | alex133 | by any chance do u know any company that does porting for a business ? |
| 07:42.02 | jscinoz | unfortunately no :( |
| 07:42.55 | jasta | alex133: if the interface is trivial, just fork the code and reimplement it on Android. |
| 07:43.05 | jasta | you don't want to copy the interface semantics exactly anyway, since J2ME is crippled. |
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| 07:43.33 | jasta | i didn't fork as in copy it. rather, just branch off those parts of the code. |
| 07:44.48 | jasta | ok, night for real now |
| 07:45.31 | alex133 | ok thx fot the advice, thats what I told to my boss.... |
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| 08:39.47 | alex133 | any j2me developer here ? |
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| 09:38.59 | gambler | what is the status of debugging on android...can eclipse be used for breakpoints etc |
| 09:39.22 | gambler | <--- newbie eclipse/android person |
| 09:45.34 | gambler | amazing that the first program ive written seems to have killed everything |
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| 12:27.05 | Dvyjones | I get the error "the import android cannot be resolved" when trying to create a android project (or rather, when trying to run it) |
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| 12:47.47 | Dougie187 | Good Morning |
| 12:53.58 | buster_ | Dvyjones: did you configure the sdk in the prefernces? |
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| 16:22.13 | jasta | yawn |
| 16:22.25 | muthu | big yawn |
| 16:22.37 | romainguy__ | >< |
| 16:22.50 | muthu | 0_o |
| 16:23.55 | muthu | jasta: any major iphone news? |
| 16:24.04 | jasta | why wouldi have iphone news? |
| 16:24.20 | muthu | you are the mobile guru! |
| 16:24.33 | jasta | i am? |
| 16:24.36 | muthu | haha |
| 16:24.40 | muthu | i thought so |
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| 16:25.21 | jasta | i dont know anything about the iphone, so... |
| 16:25.29 | michaelnovakjr__ | iphone sucks! |
| 16:25.33 | muthu | there's this wwdc going on |
| 16:25.44 | muthu | SJ might have pulled some stunts |
| 16:25.57 | michaelnovakjr__ | apple sucks |
| 16:25.57 | jasta | right now i'm trying to figure out a way to debug the code i wrote over the past couple of days without actually owning the phone :) |
| 16:26.01 | jasta | i might just have to buy one. |
| 16:26.13 | jasta | well, my friend was on stage at WWDC, that was neat. |
| 16:26.53 | muthu | jasta: who? |
| 16:27.17 | muthu | jasta has high profile friends in google and apple ;) |
| 16:27.25 | jasta | James Howard, demoing Loopt |
| 16:27.49 | michaelnovakjr__ | why do we care about apple again? have they done something special? |
| 16:28.01 | muthu | oh yeah, loopt |
| 16:28.18 | muthu | michaelnovakjr__: that's what i'm trying to figure out |
| 16:28.26 | jasta | i personally don't care what apple does. |
| 16:28.36 | michaelnovakjr__ | they annoy me now |
| 16:28.46 | muthu | good they are feeling the heat |
| 16:29.07 | muthu | from android, and now are adding some much needed functionalities like GPS |
| 16:29.30 | michaelnovakjr__ | i dont think its android specifically |
| 16:29.45 | muthu | what else? |
| 16:29.46 | michaelnovakjr__ | gps is in blackberries and they have devices already :) |
| 16:29.55 | michaelnovakjr__ | and that is what apple is after |
| 16:30.04 | michaelnovakjr__ | i really don't think they care about android |
| 16:30.11 | michaelnovakjr__ | they want enterprise |
| 16:30.17 | michaelnovakjr__ | and that is blackberry |
| 16:30.29 | muthu | they would want consumers too |
| 16:30.36 | michaelnovakjr__ | consumers are easy |
| 16:30.41 | michaelnovakjr__ | flashy gets you that |
| 16:30.46 | michaelnovakjr__ | enterprise is a different beast |
| 16:30.57 | muthu | android would be perfect for enterprise |
| 16:31.10 | michaelnovakjr__ | in what sense? |
| 16:31.18 | muthu | gmail + gdocs |
| 16:31.29 | michaelnovakjr__ | ::outlook:: |
| 16:31.34 | michaelnovakjr__ | ::exchange server:: |
| 16:32.11 | michaelnovakjr__ | i am not disagreeing |
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| 16:32.34 | michaelnovakjr__ | just providing some not some high up in the cloud responses to the android platform |
| 16:32.35 | jasta | once the activesync protocol is documented, i will personally look into implementing it on android. |
| 16:33.14 | michaelnovakjr__ | zimbra is where it is at |
| 16:33.33 | michaelnovakjr__ | zimbra on android would be killer for enterprise |
| 16:33.34 | muthu | so no major feature steve jobs announced? |
| 16:34.02 | michaelnovakjr__ | dude.... 3G iPhone?? |
| 16:34.54 | muthu | so that's it? |
| 16:35.02 | michaelnovakjr__ | that is a big deal |
| 16:35.23 | michaelnovakjr__ | whatever snow leopard is |
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| 16:35.32 | dmoffett | This is worth paying attention to: |
| 16:35.34 | dmoffett | http://www.macnn.com/articles/08/06/09/iphone.push.notification/ |
| 16:35.53 | michaelnovakjr__ | that is a bullshit workaround |
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| 16:36.14 | dmoffett | Not sure if it is a good idea but they are not standing still. |
| 16:36.22 | dmoffett | Could be. |
| 16:36.24 | dmoffett | Not sure yet. |
| 16:36.35 | muthu | sj is bullshitting on this one |
| 16:36.45 | dmoffett | How so? |
| 16:36.59 | michaelnovakjr__ | forstall actually presented |
| 16:37.11 | muthu | that's one way of covering up why iphone don't do background services so far |
| 16:37.30 | michaelnovakjr__ | apparently they don't have a kernel worth using if it can't handle cpu cycles and battery life |
| 16:37.57 | muthu | how's the application maintaining internet connection? |
| 16:38.05 | michaelnovakjr__ | magic pixie dusty |
| 16:38.07 | michaelnovakjr__ | dust* |
| 16:38.45 | michaelnovakjr__ | hey jasta |
| 16:38.48 | dmoffett | " technology will be seeded to developers in July" |
| 16:39.08 | dmoffett | from the article. |
| 16:39.14 | michaelnovakjr__ | i used to be an apple developer member, realized what a waste it was |
| 16:40.15 | dmoffett | I much prefer the open source Android to the iPhone. |
| 16:40.40 | michaelnovakjr__ | just as i prefer linux to mac os x |
| 16:40.58 | dmoffett | However the iPhone is not a joke and worth watching for a number of reason. |
| 16:41.19 | dmoffett | linux is better than OSX in some respects. |
| 16:41.43 | michaelnovakjr__ | apple === microsoft |
| 16:42.10 | michaelnovakjr__ | DRM iTunes must die!! |
| 16:43.00 | dmoffett | I think you are preaching to the choir. |
| 16:43.06 | michaelnovakjr__ | :) |
| 16:43.28 | dmoffett | Fights can be had on Apple lists. |
| 16:43.43 | michaelnovakjr__ | anyone other than jasta running android on an htc phone? |
| 16:44.31 | donomo | i will if someone mails me an HTC phone :) |
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| 16:44.36 | dmoffett | anyone have a good solution to pushing to Android. I could sure use a solution. I thought xmpp would do it for me. |
| 16:45.35 | dmoffett | Apparently xmpp has been dropped from Android. |
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| 16:47.27 | Dvyjones1 | I get the error "the import android cannot be resolved" when trying to run an android project |
| 16:48.32 | Dvyjones1 | Anyone here that has run android on HTC P3470 / Pharos (same chipset as Touch / Elf I think)? |
| 16:48.43 | jasta | dmoffett: gtalk is how. |
| 16:49.07 | dmoffett | I thought gtalk was xmpp? |
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| 16:50.08 | dmoffett | What are the implications of having a gtalk connection always on? |
| 16:50.31 | Dvyjones1 | battery power? |
| 16:50.45 | jasta | unknown. perhaps not much if they implement it with particular care for the mobile data network. |
| 16:50.51 | dmoffett | Trying to avoid polling since that would seem evil. |
| 16:51.11 | jasta | google is clearly setting GTalk up to be used for signaling and device-to-device communication. |
| 16:52.10 | jasta | unfortunately, they haven't revealed this strategy officially, and i don't think it's even workable until they do. |
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| 16:52.11 | dmoffett | Could Google build it or would it be up the carriers? |
| 16:52.19 | jasta | google would and has built this. |
| 16:53.01 | jasta | if you tinker in the dev settings, you will find that XMPP configuration is global, and can be toggled to connect at boot. |
| 16:53.22 | dmoffett | Cool, another item I guess will come in time. |
| 16:53.27 | jasta | but what they mean by xmpp is GTalk, which they have said will later be a compact, efficient binary protocol particular to android devices. |
| 16:53.56 | jasta | (probably just a compacted XML document) |
| 16:54.12 | AttractiveApe | jasta: any luck with that terminal apk? |
| 16:54.24 | michaelnovakjr__ | i setup the HTC with android |
| 16:54.38 | jasta | AttractiveApe: no, i haven't been working in that area yet. |
| 16:54.43 | jasta | i'm working on getting USB up instead. |
| 16:55.06 | jasta | USB would be the most useful thing to make work, as i could conceivably run adb shell. |
| 16:55.07 | michaelnovakjr__ | any reason windows mobile is the bootloader? |
| 16:55.24 | AttractiveApe | michaelnovakjr__: because it's shipped as a windows mobile phone? |
| 16:55.59 | AttractiveApe | jasta: okay, cool :) |
| 16:56.07 | michaelnovakjr__ | obviously... but windows mobile sucks battery life! |
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| 17:01.30 | Dvyjones | Is it normal that the first run on the emulator is really slow? |
| 17:01.52 | michaelnovakjr__ | ? |
| 17:02.02 | Dvyjones | the red bar bounces forth and back |
| 17:02.08 | romainguy__ | yes it's normal |
| 17:02.13 | Dvyjones | k |
| 17:03.55 | jasta | AttractiveApe: but it's being a bitch. the kernel won't even boot with USB enabled :) |
| 17:04.07 | jasta | i am trying to get a better dev env set up to debug this stuff |
| 17:04.11 | jasta | setting up haretconsole and stuff |
| 17:08.29 | *** join/#android Dougie187 (n=doug@c-68-42-59-199.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) |
| 17:13.02 | Dougie187 | Good Afternoon |
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| 17:38.46 | Dvyjones | Good afternoon Dougie187 |
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| 17:41.37 | borism | is on android n810 now, thanks to http://www.alextreme.org/drupal//?q=android_on_n810 |
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| 17:42.04 | borism | now what? where do I get those wonderful apps? |
| 17:45.27 | jasta | you mean all the wonderful apps that nobody released source code or binaries for? |
| 17:45.36 | borism | :) |
| 17:45.58 | jasta | you can build mine if you'd like: http://five.googlecode.com |
| 17:46.28 | jasta | borism: if you're curious, the HTC Vogue can also run Android currently and has a working telephony layer up too |
| 17:46.42 | jasta | i'm working on adding USB support, though i didn't do any of the original work |
| 17:46.44 | jasta | just building from that |
| 17:46.54 | jasta | with USB, i could meaningfully debug apps and explore the phone |
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| 17:54.51 | davidw | heh, Innsbruck is soccer-crazy |
| 17:55.01 | borism | this userspace I've got isn't of much use besides browsing the web |
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| 17:55.07 | squeakypants | hey |
| 17:55.40 | borism | google should provide prebuilt images for few devices that are more or less supported now |
| 17:55.42 | squeakypants | if i want to use eclipse for android, which should i download? |
| 17:55.53 | Dougie187 | what are your choices? |
| 17:56.00 | squeakypants | http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/ |
| 17:56.08 | squeakypants | java, java ee, c/c++, classic |
| 17:56.09 | Dougie187 | on windows? |
| 17:56.12 | squeakypants | yeah |
| 17:56.36 | Dougie187 | i think you just need java |
| 17:56.42 | borism | any will do, you'll just have to download extensions |
| 17:56.55 | squeakypants | well can the java version do c++ and vice versa? |
| 17:57.03 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 17:57.05 | Dougie187 | they are all plugins |
| 17:57.09 | jasta | squeakypants: Only Java development is supported officially on Android. |
| 17:57.10 | squeakypants | borism: yeah, i also plan on using python with it :) |
| 17:57.17 | Dougie187 | you will have to install the c++ into eclipse |
| 17:57.18 | squeakypants | jasta: yeah.. i've read :( |
| 17:57.29 | squeakypants | mmk, i'll get the java version then |
| 17:57.30 | squeakypants | thx |
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| 17:59.22 | squeakypants | heh, so why did they choose to use dalvik? |
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| 18:03.16 | jasta | squeakypants: a number of reasons. performance and licensing mostly. |
| 18:12.05 | squeakypants | jasta: why not allow c++ though? |
| 18:12.31 | zhobbs_ | squeakypants: not as portable |
| 18:12.49 | squeakypants | what do you mean? |
| 18:13.15 | zhobbs_ | some phones might be arm, some intel, etc etc |
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| 18:13.29 | squeakypants | ah |
| 18:13.29 | zhobbs_ | one apk needs to work on every android phone |
| 18:13.37 | squeakypants | gotcha |
| 18:14.08 | zhobbs_ | that's the problem with javame...different versions for different phones |
| 18:14.21 | squeakypants | mmm |
| 18:14.29 | squeakypants | i haven't done much with java |
| 18:14.41 | squeakypants | is a python guy |
| 18:15.43 | zhobbs_ | there will probably be python bindings one day |
| 18:15.50 | zhobbs_ | if you make them :) |
| 18:15.54 | squeakypants | well i looked into a bit |
| 18:16.12 | squeakypants | jython doesn't work on dalvik... |
| 18:16.14 | romainguy__ | or you could just use Java :)) |
| 18:16.19 | romainguy__ | Java is just a language |
| 18:16.28 | squeakypants | yeah |
| 18:16.35 | squeakypants | but python is so.... pythonic! |
| 18:16.43 | romainguy__ | but it's also just a language |
| 18:16.51 | squeakypants | yeah |
| 18:17.23 | cybereagle | i actually quite like both python and java in different situations lol |
| 18:17.43 | dmoffett | Once you have been spoiled by Ruby or Python C based languages leave a bit to be desired. :-) |
| 18:18.00 | romainguy__ | I disagree |
| 18:18.05 | cybereagle | c was my first language, i'll always love it deep down hehe |
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| 18:18.08 | romainguy__ | Python has its annoyances too :) |
| 18:18.15 | dmoffett | Which is your right. |
| 18:18.17 | squeakypants | romainguy__: yeah |
| 18:18.18 | dmoffett | of course. |
| 18:18.25 | dmoffett | Don't leave Ruby out. |
| 18:18.30 | dmoffett | It can be annoying. |
| 18:18.32 | romainguy__ | I hate Ruby :)) |
| 18:18.37 | romainguy__ | But that's purely personal |
| 18:18.43 | dmoffett | yep |
| 18:19.07 | f00f- | i like assembly |
| 18:19.13 | f00f- | push & pop |
| 18:19.25 | AttractiveApe | I'm pretty surprised that Google would choose java for android |
| 18:19.27 | f00f- | (if you have the luxury of having a stack) |
| 18:19.32 | dmoffett | f00f: again with a painful perspective. :-) |
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| 18:19.35 | AttractiveApe | They're generally python fanatics I thought :p |
| 18:19.39 | cybereagle | java seems the popular choice for phones |
| 18:19.43 | f00f- | haha dmoffett |
| 18:19.55 | romainguy__ | AttractiveApe: we use Python, Java and C++ |
| 18:20.14 | AttractiveApe | ah |
| 18:20.21 | squeakypants | cybereagle: yeah... i guess just cause they can port em |
| 18:20.40 | cybereagle | i like to have a lower level "system" kind of a language, and a higher level more conceptual language laying around my brain |
| 18:20.47 | dmoffett | C++ is an abomination imo. :-) |
| 18:20.51 | romainguy__ | Java is a well known language, it has excellent freely available tools, it's easy to learn... :) |
| 18:21.02 | dmoffett | Java is decent. |
| 18:21.04 | romainguy__ | but sure, it's not perfect and not everybody like it |
| 18:21.37 | cybereagle | no language is *waits to get flamed* ;) |
| 18:22.15 | dmoffett | Languages are like skiing. 10% equipment anyway. |
| 18:22.19 | squeakypants | romainguy__: besides cross-compatibility, what does java offer vs c++? |
| 18:22.38 | michaelnovakjr__ | java has some flaws in terms of objects that shouldn't be objects! |
| 18:22.43 | romainguy__ | michaelnovakjr: ?? |
| 18:22.56 | romainguy__ | michaelnovakjr: if Java has one flaw is that it has primitive types :) |
| 18:22.58 | cybereagle | this is very debatable, but in some ways java is probably easier for people to pick up fast and not have stuff totally bomb out on them |
| 18:23.10 | romainguy__ | squeakypants: in a way it's safer |
| 18:23.28 | cybereagle | yeah, java will baby you more lol |
| 18:23.31 | michaelnovakjr__ | why do i need to instantiate a SimpleCalendar just to format a Date object as a String? |
| 18:23.36 | romainguy__ | it also has cleaner syntax |
| 18:23.43 | romainguy__ | michaelnovakjr: that's an API problem, not a language issue |
| 18:24.04 | michaelnovakjr__ | that is something to me that is greatly annoying |
| 18:24.25 | michaelnovakjr__ | there should be a method you can call statically to return the result for you |
| 18:24.51 | romainguy__ | again, it's an API issue |
| 18:24.58 | romainguy__ | nothing to do with the language |
| 18:25.09 | romainguy__ | file a bug, join a JSR, etc. if you want to fix it |
| 18:25.20 | romainguy__ | (there's actually a JSR to improve data/calendar/time APIs) |
| 18:25.26 | cybereagle | true, but api's for a large part of day to day usage of languages like java. if they were consistently annoying, it could be said to be a java problem |
| 18:25.32 | cybereagle | i wouldnt say it was all that bad though |
| 18:25.47 | romainguy__ | Java has some bad APIs, but it also has some great APIs |
| 18:25.56 | cybereagle | i'll agree with that |
| 18:26.00 | romainguy__ | the concurrent APIs are awesome for instance |
| 18:30.24 | squeakypants | hmm |
| 18:30.27 | squeakypants | i'm trying to run a sample |
| 18:31.11 | squeakypants | all i see is a red dot going left and right... |
| 18:31.20 | michaelnovakjr__ | yes the emulator is booting |
| 18:31.30 | squeakypants | ...it's taking a long time |
| 18:31.36 | michaelnovakjr__ | it does |
| 18:31.39 | squeakypants | there it goes |
| 18:31.42 | michaelnovakjr__ | :) |
| 18:32.11 | romainguy__ | get a faster machine :) |
| 18:32.31 | squeakypants | working on it |
| 18:32.44 | squeakypants | wow i didn't realize this emu had all the software on it too |
| 18:32.54 | squeakypants | psh, only 2 bars? :-P |
| 18:35.06 | AttractiveApe | yeah, Google phones have bad reception ;) |
| 18:36.06 | squeakypants | hehe |
| 18:36.25 | squeakypants | so that HTC prototype... how expensive do you think it'll be? |
| 18:36.31 | squeakypants | iphone is only $199 now so... |
| 18:36.46 | romainguy__ | but they raised the monthly fee :( |
| 18:37.01 | tethridge | can somebody tell me the name of the service that has lyrics for songs. I saw an android plugin somewhere that would fetch the lyrics and move them along karaoke style with the music. If there weren't there, you could tap the lyrics. Anybody know the name of that site? |
| 18:37.12 | f00f- | tunewiki |
| 18:37.18 | tethridge | thanks |
| 18:37.34 | squeakypants | romainguy__: yeah and no more jailbreaking |
| 18:37.56 | AttractiveApe | romainguy__: google didn't, AT&T did. |
| 18:37.57 | squeakypants | if you don't activate with at&t within a month of buying the iphone, they can charge you |
| 18:38.10 | squeakypants | attractiveape: you mean apple |
| 18:38.10 | donomo | squeakypants: do you think the iphone 3g will be extra-hard to jailbreak? |
| 18:38.27 | AttractiveApe | squeakypants: ah, yes. |
| 18:38.36 | squeakypants | donomo: well, i've heard the sim card won't be as easily accessible. still, i doubt it will be too hard |
| 18:38.48 | AttractiveApe | apple wants to drop the price now so it can take over the phone market. AT&T just wants more money :p |
| 18:38.53 | squeakypants | lol |
| 18:39.09 | squeakypants | whaaa |
| 18:39.13 | donomo | im just glad non of this crap affects me and my non-apple phone :) |
| 18:39.13 | squeakypants | i can't give my contact a picture? |
| 18:39.14 | f00f- | it'll be a looong time before the operators see profit from iPhone |
| 18:39.38 | AttractiveApe | squeakypants: one what phone? |
| 18:39.47 | AttractiveApe | on |
| 18:40.22 | squeakypants | attractiveape: in the emu |
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| 18:40.44 | donomo | also, the FIC FreeRunner phone (hardware for the openmoko project) is in mass-production. should be for sale about the same time as the iphone 3g |
| 18:40.45 | squeakypants | lol i have to say |
| 18:40.53 | squeakypants | this emu is pretty rough ;) |
| 18:41.07 | squeakypants | donomo: is openmoko any good? |
| 18:41.08 | romainguy_ | what do you mean rough? |
| 18:41.20 | squeakypants | romainguy_: besides slow, the interface is messy |
| 18:41.26 | donomo | squeakypants: i havent used it beyond the emulator, so i cant say really. |
| 18:41.35 | squeakypants | of course the interface shown at google io was awesome |
| 18:42.00 | michaelnovakjr__ | its a beta emulator for building apps |
| 18:42.00 | squeakypants | wow the webkit browser is in the emu |
| 18:42.13 | michaelnovakjr__ | not a consumer test of what the phone will really be like |
| 18:42.13 | squeakypants | michaelnovakjr__: yeah i know, i'm just messing around ;) |
| 18:43.16 | squeakypants | aww the mirror thing isn't in the emu... that was awesome |
| 18:44.30 | romainguy_ | the mirror ? |
| 18:45.13 | jasta | squeakypants: it's not the emulator which is missing it. |
| 18:45.28 | jasta | squeakypants: the public SDK release is quite old (released in early February) |
| 18:45.40 | jasta | with no expected updates in the near future. the version that Google is operating on is much newer. |
| 18:46.30 | jasta | romainguy_: so, do you have your h1b? |
| 18:47.29 | squeakypants | jasta: ah gotcha |
| 18:47.37 | squeakypants | romainguy_: my bad, meant magnifying glass :-P |
| 18:51.39 | jasta | squeakypants: i wouldn't expect an SDK release containing the features you saw at the I/O keynote until handset launch later this year. |
| 18:52.12 | jasta | despite the unconvincing assurances google employees are giving to the contrary. |
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| 19:16.40 | Dougie187 | yeah, the google employees tend to get your hopes up and squash your dreams. |
| 19:16.40 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 19:25.10 | borism | can I just upgrade userspace without upgrading the kernel? |
| 19:25.49 | *** part/#android squeakypants (n=squeakyp@75.146.255.198) |
| 19:35.35 | jasta | borism: upgrade what userspace? |
| 19:35.37 | jasta | to what? |
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| 19:49.13 | jasta | grins |
| 19:49.15 | jasta | Android has /dev/ptmx :) |
| 19:49.30 | jasta | (moving on to the terminal emulator app, for those that are curious) |
| 19:50.06 | michaelnovakjr__ | have you been using android jasta? |
| 19:55.11 | jasta | using, as in like it's a working phone? |
| 19:59.27 | michaelnovakjr__ | yea |
| 20:01.18 | jasta | hell no :) |
| 20:01.29 | jasta | Android, as it is released, would make a terrible phone. |
| 20:01.35 | jasta | it has basically nothing but a web browser. |
| 20:02.12 | michaelnovakjr__ | have you installed apps on it yet? |
| 20:03.21 | jasta | what apps? nothing exists. |
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| 20:06.54 | jasta | it is occurring to me that allocating a pty in Java may not be natively possible. i will have to glue this with JNI |
| 20:06.59 | jasta | but that sucks :( |
| 20:07.23 | michaelnovakjr__ | jasta i meant anything you've created |
| 20:07.32 | michaelnovakjr__ | you wrote five and an rss reader that i know of |
| 20:07.47 | jasta | oh yeah, i loaded those |
| 20:07.52 | jasta | Five breaks horribly |
| 20:08.05 | jasta | the app hangs the UI thread on invocation, for some reason. |
| 20:08.32 | jasta | i dont know why, but rather than guess and check, i'd rather get USB support working and just do logcat ;) |
| 20:08.43 | AttractiveApe | probably due to lack of writable memory. |
| 20:09.00 | jasta | also, Five ultimately won't work since there is no main speaker support, and no writable memory |
| 20:09.08 | jasta | AttractiveApe: no, because the app does not attempt to write anywhere on startup. |
| 20:10.13 | tomgibara | jasta: how do you think performance compares to the emulator? |
| 20:10.29 | jasta | performance was frankly amazing. |
| 20:11.16 | jasta | the base platform certainly felt nice, and that it was certainly attainable to meet iPhone standards |
| 20:11.50 | tomgibara | I strongly suspect that moseycode's performance will suffer very badly from the Dalvik interpreter |
| 20:12.06 | jasta | as opposed to? why? |
| 20:12.12 | tomgibara | But that any apps using all of the native goodness (graphics APIs etc) will perfom well |
| 20:13.06 | jasta | well the native APIs are likely to have better performance not because they are not interpreted with Dalvik, but rather because they are not generating as bloated a bytecode at all :) |
| 20:13.13 | tomgibara | Simply that the interpreter overhead is (I believe) very great on the hotspot in Moseycode - the image processing |
| 20:13.44 | tomgibara | The more efficiently you write your code, the greater the overhead of the interpreter as a percentage of execution time |
| 20:14.03 | tomgibara | Moseycode's image processing code is very very efficient |
| 20:14.08 | jasta | i doubt that very much, but in your case it makes sense in either case to implement image processing natively and use JNI |
| 20:14.23 | tomgibara | What do you doubt? |
| 20:14.56 | jasta | that your engine will see a drastic improvement in performance simply by translating the algorithm to C. |
| 20:15.35 | jasta | though i think that, beyond translation, C will offer you some significant opportunities to optimize your code furtehr that will make the greatest difference. |
| 20:16.23 | tomgibara | vs JIT/AOT compiled Java, no. But the Dalvik interpreter will carry a significant overhead for my code - I'm sure of it |
| 20:16.50 | jasta | as i said, there is an argument in either case to implement your image processing natively and i would recommend that route. |
| 20:18.13 | jasta | though it is yet to be seen how applications written that way will be distributed. |
| 20:18.23 | tomgibara | Casting the code into C would be fairly easy work - it's one complex method with just integer arithmetic. But I've seen no indication that anything other than Dalvik bytecode will be permited for applications |
| 20:19.00 | jasta | tomgibara: permitted in what sense? technically, JNI is functional now. |
| 20:19.32 | tomgibara | permitted in the sense of installable via an APK or other application deployment bundle |
| 20:19.32 | jasta | the distribution model that Google has come up with so far doesn't support it, but that is not to say it cannot be changed or replaced. |
| 20:20.21 | jasta | and i think that it certainly will be. apks should be extended to allow installation hooks and other functionality which would permit you to do also distribute extra pieces in your bundle and install them appropriatley. |
| 20:21.16 | jasta | likewise, /data/lib should be created and honored, in addition to /system/lib, but perhaps with specail care taken to enforce linker precedence. |
| 20:22.46 | tomgibara | We will see, but I wouldn't expect that sort of extension to happen unless there is a real and evident demand for it. |
| 20:24.41 | chaosvoyager | I highly suspect that Dalvik will have JIT in the future. It's gonna need something like that or native exe distribution to keep up with the competition. |
| 20:25.25 | tomgibara | jasta: If you get an opportunity, I'd be interested in knowing if Moseycode runs on your phone - or if it dies like five :-( |
| 20:26.08 | tomgibara | I don't think it needs a JIT, better would be a selective AOT compiler that is targetted using annotations |
| 20:26.57 | zhobbs_ | does it have a camera? |
| 20:27.37 | tomgibara | I think a JIT would have very poor performance characteristics within the context of Android |
| 20:27.40 | jasta | the camera stuff is very strange on the HTC Vogue. it is that same dummy image we see with the emulator |
| 20:27.52 | jasta | except with lots of drawing bugs, and ultimately freezing the phone |
| 20:28.31 | tomgibara | jasta: Oh well, nevermind - one day some device somewhere will run my app :-/ |
| 20:35.08 | jasta | being patient is very frustrating :) |
| 20:35.25 | chaosvoyager | tomgibaba: Since the biggest cost of JIT is memory, it's not useful on memory limited phones. Hmm, perhaps something between a JIT and an annotation targeted AOT, where only the annotated code gets JITted. |
| 20:38.02 | tomgibara | chaosvoyager: JITs also have a performance overhead - they need to profile before compiling - and then they need to do the compilation. That's fine on a desktop where an application might run for at least several minutes. On android applications may be starting/stopping very frequently |
| 20:43.21 | chaosvoyager | tomgibara: So? If the app is used frequently, then Android can used the compiled version generated by the JIT. Again, mostly memory related. And the performance hit is usually quite small. Heck, even WebKit uses JIT for it's Javascript engine now, and the same concernes as you mentioned were brought up. So far, it doesn't seem to be t bad, and that's with running cde that's typically run ONCE. |
| 20:44.14 | chaosvoyager | say This POS keyboard is dropping letters >_< |
| 20:46.19 | chaosvoyager | eh, and I meant "its", not "it's". The heat must be getting to me. |
| 20:47.27 | tomgibara | That's a good point, but what needs to be remembered is that it's the relative trade-off that's important. I anticipate that a JS JIT in Webkit will 'earn its keep' much more quickly than a JVM/Dalvik JIT because the performance of the latter is already so much better. |
| 20:48.02 | tomgibara | ie. A JS JIT can make very quick wins in a way that a Java JIT can't |
| 20:48.28 | tomgibara | I'm no expert on JITing, but that's my intuition |
| 20:50.47 | chaosvoyager | You're right about those quick JS wins. Much of its slowness was due to lazy design :) However, I'm not so sure that Dalvik would not see similar quick wins. |
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| 20:52.15 | dmoffett | jasta: When adbd starts up it opens a socket on port 5037. Is this port available on the device you testing? No problem if you don;t have time to check. |
| 20:53.00 | romainguy_ | chaosvoyager: have you even tried Dalvik on a real device? :) |
| 20:54.11 | f00f- | hey tomgibara, did we meet at i/o ? |
| 20:54.53 | tomgibara | f00f-: I can be certain that we didn't because I was stuck in Birmingham UK :-) |
| 20:55.08 | f00f- | ah, hehe |
| 20:55.28 | tomgibara | f00f-: Why, have I mastered Astral projection and not realized it? I was there in spirit |
| 20:56.03 | f00f- | i thought so |
| 20:56.08 | f00f- | are you a big fan of Astral Projection ? |
| 20:56.12 | chaosvoyager | romainguy: No, but as a rule of thumb, memory optimized VMs tend to suffer in comparison with performance optimized JIT VMs when it comes to performance. And I was under the impression that Dalvik was designed *specifically* for memory constrained devices. |
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| 20:56.36 | tomgibara | f00f-: It's useful for escaping boring meetings |
| 20:57.25 | f00f- | aye. |
| 20:59.50 | zhobbs_ | tomgibara: I heard someone talking about you, called you "tom the brain" or "tom the genius" or something |
| 21:00.29 | zhobbs_ | Mary Ann is impressed |
| 21:00.37 | tomgibara | zhobbs_: ha - I have no idea where these epithets come from |
| 21:01.06 | chaosvoyager | romainguy: On the other hand, if you know where I can get an actual Android device, I'll be glad to make an empirical comparison ;) |
| 21:01.20 | f00f- | zhobbs_: you still in SF? |
| 21:01.21 | tomgibara | Only one person out of me and Mary Ann produced a winning application and it wasn't me :-) |
| 21:01.26 | romainguy_ | chaosvoyager: there's a couple on my desk :) |
| 21:01.45 | f00f- | tomgibara: how do you know each other, are you on muthu's team? |
| 21:02.01 | zhobbs_ | well, I agreed with her...projects like moseycode are beyond my ability |
| 21:02.17 | tomgibara | f00f-: Yeah, I'm just helping out. |
| 21:02.20 | zhobbs_ | f00f-: nope, but I'll be back in 2 weeks for work |
| 21:02.34 | f00f- | sweet, we should try to organize a meetup |
| 21:02.51 | f00f- | the metosphere guy was talking about it, but looks like he hasnt |
| 21:03.13 | zhobbs_ | well, I'll be in Napa Valley, not sure how far that is |
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| 21:03.52 | f00f- | drinking/making wine, i see |
| 21:03.58 | f00f- | it's not exactly a tear drop away |
| 21:04.01 | dmoffett | tomgibara: I don't think losing the ADC shows a lack of intelligence. At least I hope not. :-) |
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| 21:05.56 | zhobbs_ | f00f-: yeah, on a tight schedule too...I'll let you know if I do find some time in SF |
| 21:06.38 | tomgibara | dmoffett: :-) |
| 21:07.09 | f00f- | all right |
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| 21:07.57 | chaosvoyager | romainguy: Are you offering me one, or just teasing? |
| 21:08.07 | romainguy_ | I'm just teasing you |
| 21:08.29 | chaosvoyager | Bah |
| 21:09.38 | f00f- | romainguy_: pics of the devices or it's not true |
| 21:09.47 | romainguy_ | ha :) |
| 21:10.41 | chaosvoyager | I believe him because I can find no reason NOT to believe him. |
| 21:13.01 | romainguy_ | jasta: yes I do have my H1B, but I've had it for quite a while now |
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| 21:13.53 | romainguy_ | (sorry I'm answering so late, I didn't see the question :) |
| 21:14.13 | chaosvoyager | Does anyone know if Android's WebKit supports plugins? |
| 21:16.08 | jasta | romainguy_: my friend just got denied for the 4th time. he has only 1 more shot and then he'll have to leave the country. |
| 21:16.24 | romainguy_ | what visa does he have right now? |
| 21:16.39 | romainguy_ | (and yeah, H1Bs are hard to obtain nowadays with the quotas) |
| 21:17.09 | romainguy_ | I actually got my H1B in 2005 when I was working for Sun |
| 21:17.56 | jasta | he just has a student visa now, i believe. |
| 21:18.07 | jasta | he went to grad school to stay in the country, but is about to graduate. |
| 21:18.14 | romainguy_ | ah yes |
| 21:18.36 | romainguy_ | another easy way to get a work visa is to work abroad for a US company for one yearr |
| 21:18.38 | romainguy_ | -r |
| 21:18.42 | romainguy_ | then you can get the L1 visa |
| 21:18.47 | romainguy_ | which is more or less like the H1 |
| 21:18.52 | romainguy_ | H1B |
| 21:19.43 | jasta | none of our female friends will participate in a green card wedding either ;) |
| 21:20.12 | chaosvoyager | Try Craigslist. |
| 21:20.27 | romainguy_ | jasta: :)) |
| 21:20.48 | jasta | now that gay marriage is legal in CA, there is a strong possibility that my friend Fred will do it ;) |
| 21:22.56 | jasta | everyone says that green card weddings are hard to fake, but i doubt that very much. |
| 21:22.57 | romainguy_ | hmm I wouldn't be surprised if the US gov was very rigorous about it |
| 21:23.02 | jasta | given the intelligence demonstrated by any other segment of this government... :) |
| 21:23.13 | romainguy_ | (given how painful it can be to just get a stupid student or H1B visa) |
| 21:23.18 | jasta | i'm sure they would be rigorous, but filling out paperwork and showing up to meetings is not hard. |
| 21:31.09 | blaked | Women can't drive. |
| 21:31.30 | blaked | Women should not be allowed to drive anything but 3-wheeled cars. |
| 21:32.13 | jasta | romainguy_: i might be wrong. looks like they do require a lot of crazy things ;) |
| 21:32.21 | romainguy_ | :) |
| 21:32.32 | romainguy_ | I can't wait to ask for my green card... it will be so much fun... |
| 21:32.34 | jasta | wedding photos and love letters |
| 21:32.53 | f00f- | postcards, etc. |
| 21:33.02 | jasta | though i don't know who writes love letters anymore :) |
| 21:33.12 | jasta | they want hotel and plane receipts to show you visited each other |
| 21:33.33 | jasta | though all of this would be easily fakeable if you were friends with the person. |
| 21:33.52 | jasta | the only tricky part would be wedding photos. but you could just dress up nice and take pictures of you and your family and stuff |
| 21:34.04 | romainguy_ | and hope the govt doesn't find out :) |
| 21:34.20 | f00f- | well |
| 21:34.31 | f00f- | the kiss and stuff |
| 21:34.33 | jasta | certainly better than going back to mother rusia ;) |
| 21:34.51 | f00f- | they'll ask for the pope |
| 21:34.53 | f00f- | err |
| 21:34.54 | f00f- | the ... |
| 21:34.56 | blaked | nigger!!! |
| 21:35.00 | blaked | NIGGER GO AWAY |
| 21:35.12 | f00f- | the preacher i guess? |
| 21:35.15 | f00f- | the guy who marries you |
| 21:35.18 | f00f- | to prove it |
| 21:35.21 | jasta | that would be easy to fake. |
| 21:35.33 | jasta | you dont need a preacher to marry you. |
| 21:35.44 | f00f- | just some fat lady in an office can sign off on it |
| 21:35.47 | f00f- | true |
| 21:36.03 | f00f- | best thing is juts go to vegas and do it |
| 21:36.31 | jasta | yeah |
| 21:37.01 | jasta | the reality is, he has less than a year to stay here, and he isn't going to meet someone and get married for real in that time. |
| 21:37.12 | jasta | he's been here for 6 years and that hasn't happened, so :) |
| 21:37.23 | jasta | so it's time to start thinking of crazy plans hehe |
| 21:38.03 | f00f- | why would he want to move to the US anyway? |
| 21:38.13 | f00f- | must be the money!!!!!!!! |
| 21:38.21 | jasta | he's lived in the US for the last 6 years |
| 21:40.21 | jasta | also, he'd be forced to serve 12 months of military service in Russia if he went back |
| 21:42.38 | davidw | I knew a guy who got married to stay in the US |
| 21:42.47 | davidw | apparently they are pretty detailed in their questioning:-/ |
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| 21:43.47 | jasta | yeah i was just reading some stuff that seems pretty tough. |
| 21:43.53 | jasta | although, our friend Carolyn could totally do it. |
| 21:43.58 | jasta | but she refuses |
| 21:44.09 | davidw | what a bunch of horse shit, though |
| 21:44.23 | davidw | if someone's not mooching or in trouble with the law, they should be able to stay |
| 21:44.24 | jasta | she knows a lot about dmitri, they talk and hang out just the two of them. there's lots of basic stuff taken care of already. |
| 21:44.32 | chaosvoyager | Hmm, the Newlywed Game as run by the federal government. That would make fine TV. |
| 21:44.54 | davidw | yoooooooou just won a fabulous trip to ..... prison! |
| 21:45.07 | jasta | that would be sucky if he had to go back to Russia. |
| 21:45.09 | f00f- | :D |
| 21:45.21 | jasta | davidw: you think visa fraud would wind the US citizen in prison? |
| 21:45.29 | jasta | i would be surprised, honestly. |
| 21:45.39 | dmoffett | If you want some very crazy stories related to just this subject check out "This American Life" episode: #353 |
| 21:46.17 | davidw | jasta, who knows |
| 21:46.39 | davidw | the people that run that crap are a bunch of bozos |
| 21:46.52 | dmoffett | Be sure to do it after Bush is out of office. |
| 21:47.07 | jasta | i imagine the steepest penalty the US govt would be willing to levy against a citizen would be annulment of the fake wedding. |
| 21:48.02 | jasta | since there could be a massive political backlash putting a US citizen in jail or anything that extreme simply because they failed to cough up lough letters and "sufficient" wedding photos. |
| 21:48.17 | jasta | err, love* |
| 21:48.21 | jasta | not lough ;) |
| 21:53.19 | dmoffett | the govt does not give a crap about love letters. They check to see if you are doing things like buying a house in both names, filing taxes in both names, Sharing checking and saving accounts. Making the spouse a beneficiary of your life insurance, having kids. Stuff a typical married couple does. |
| 21:55.54 | jasta | well, having kids certainly isn't a necessity. |
| 21:56.02 | jasta | or shouldnt be |
| 21:56.13 | jasta | lots of people dont have kids until their 30s. |
| 21:56.38 | dmoffett | of course not, it is the whole picture. Does it add of to a married couple. Of course all that can be faked and probably has been many times. |
| 21:57.20 | jasta | i suppose. it seems like one of the overarching themes here is that you have to trust the person you do this with. |
| 21:57.25 | dmoffett | But if doctor up a bunch of pictures and lover letters I think your case will be difficult. |
| 21:58.15 | jasta | well hmm. this is gonna be a real problem in the next year or so. |
| 21:58.41 | dmoffett | As dumb as you might think these guys are this is thier job and they have probably seen a gambit of schemes. Just like any police type officer. |
| 22:00.03 | jasta | i think the scheme can only work if the person involved has an existing relatiosnhip |
| 22:00.14 | jasta | as in, there was some reasonable way that they could have fallen in love and wanted to be married |
| 22:00.26 | jasta | which is why i'm kind of pissed that my friend Carolyn won't do it. |
| 22:00.37 | jasta | she hangs out with him all the time. hell, we all think they slept together too |
| 22:00.40 | jasta | :) |
| 22:00.43 | f00f- | lol |
| 22:00.54 | dmoffett | The trick is get the rules they follow from some govt site and follow the rules and you will probably not have a problem. Assume they are dumb and just wing and I think there might be deportment. :-) |
| 22:00.58 | f00f- | afraid of getting caught by the feds |
| 22:01.05 | f00f- | it's all public law, too |
| 22:01.16 | f00f- | maybe not "law" but you know what i mean |
| 22:01.28 | davidw | jasta, can't he go to canada or someplace with less screwed up laws? |
| 22:01.32 | jasta | like i said, i dont think the penalty for US citizens could be too steep. |
| 22:01.39 | jasta | but it would be worth investigating. |
| 22:02.00 | jasta | davidw: apparently Canada is more screwed up. it will require that he return to Russia first, which will begin his mandatory service. |
| 22:02.06 | jasta | after which, he will be free to move to Canada. |
| 22:02.07 | dmoffett | I think they just deport the illegal alien. |
| 22:02.34 | jasta | dmoffett: right, so that's why i can't figure her motivation for refusing to try this. |
| 22:03.06 | dmoffett | At least that is what happened to the spouses of the people on "This American Life". |
| 22:03.10 | jasta | i would do it, if it was legal and did not involve kissing him. |
| 22:03.19 | davidw | I went through all that shit in Italy... wasn't legal until we got married (which was, however, for real:-) |
| 22:03.40 | davidw | jasta, maybe she wants to be able to get married to someone else |
| 22:03.43 | f00f- | move to cali jasta ;p |
| 22:03.53 | jasta | Fred already lives there. I'll make him do it :) |
| 22:04.19 | jasta | davidw: of course, but what is the term requirement of this fake marriage? |
| 22:04.49 | jasta | surely there must be a route to pursue permanent residency while in the fake marriage. |
| 22:04.59 | f00f- | have an affair |
| 22:05.04 | f00f- | have kids |
| 22:05.22 | jasta | carolyn is 22, so it's not like marriage should be right around the corner. |
| 22:05.43 | jasta | anyway, i have a doctor appt to check out why my arm has hurt ever since I/O |
| 22:05.45 | jasta | (what the hell did i do!?!) |
| 22:05.54 | jasta | later guys |
| 22:05.54 | f00f- | LOL |
| 22:05.57 | f00f- | ciao |
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