| 00:00.26 | jerkface03 | whats a jasta smash? |
| 00:00.31 | jerkface03 | oh |
| 00:00.32 | jerkface03 | nm |
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| 00:09.09 | jasta | Hello Jason. |
| 00:09.15 | jasta | How are you this evening? |
| 00:09.31 | jasta | grins awkwardly |
| 00:09.34 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 00:09.53 | Dougie187 | when are you planning on getting a rhythmbox plugin for five done? |
| 00:09.54 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 00:10.07 | jasta | i dunno, the plugin framework for Rhythmbox is really fantastic |
| 00:10.11 | jasta | so honestly, it could be pretty quick. |
| 00:10.19 | Dougie187 | that would be sweet |
| 00:10.22 | Dougie187 | i would totally use it |
| 00:10.25 | jasta | like a month, realistically |
| 00:10.31 | Dougie187 | then i wouldnt need to waste disk space on my laptop for music |
| 00:10.53 | Dougie187 | ff2 rc1 is out. |
| 00:10.59 | jasta | yeah, that's an awesome advantage of the Five client on a laptop or desktop machine. You can just wipe the cache to save space. |
| 00:11.25 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 00:11.41 | Dougie187 | it only caches the music you want to play right? |
| 00:12.01 | jasta | yeah |
| 00:12.07 | jasta | well, the music you have played, more precisely |
| 00:12.22 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 00:12.25 | Dougie187 | true. |
| 00:12.32 | Dougie187 | i more meant that it doesnt cache everything. |
| 00:13.31 | jasta | it will try, eventually |
| 00:13.35 | jasta | i mean, if you play everything :) |
| 00:13.38 | jasta | and have the sapce for it |
| 00:13.38 | Dougie187 | ... |
| 00:13.48 | Dougie187 | what does it do if you run out of space? |
| 00:14.05 | jasta | the clients are configured to preserve a minumum free on the hosting disk. |
| 00:14.16 | jasta | so, you could say that you want to always make sure there are 10GB free, or 20% free, or whatever. |
| 00:14.30 | jasta | and the client, when it reaches that boundary, will start deleting from the cache based on an LRU policy |
| 00:14.31 | Dougie187 | can you also specify a max for the cache? |
| 00:14.43 | jasta | never, such a feature would be impossible to implement |
| 00:14.49 | Dougie187 | why? |
| 00:14.52 | jasta | i'm joking |
| 00:14.53 | jasta | of course you can ;) |
| 00:14.58 | Dougie187 | ... |
| 00:15.10 | Dougie187 | your name should be jerkface03 |
| 00:15.12 | jasta | i plan to provide sensible controls, though the default will be some portion of the disk free. |
| 00:15.22 | Dougie187 | ok |
| 00:15.47 | Dougie187 | i would love to use it at some point. |
| 00:15.50 | Dougie187 | i think it looks sweet |
| 00:15.55 | Dougie187 | first i have to work on installing the server. |
| 00:16.34 | jasta | http://news.cnet.com/8301-13580_3-9949793-39.html -- btw, I am mad again today. |
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| 00:16.51 | Dougie187 | lol when are you not mad? |
| 00:17.03 | jasta | this platform is fubar'd. if not all the source is released, then only "official" OHA handsets will even be possible in the wild. |
| 00:17.28 | jasta | because if you can't compile it all for the necessary target architecture, then hobbyists are screwed. |
| 00:17.48 | jasta | this is exactly why nobody has been able to successfully hack it onto an existing phone already. |
| 00:18.02 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 00:18.11 | jasta | the set of hardware that can support it is very narrow with a binary-only release. |
| 00:18.22 | jasta | and so, even if 99.9% of it was released open source, that last .1% will kill you. |
| 00:18.47 | jasta | you either won't be able to use it on the port, which may be critical if any of it deals with the proprietary carrier-specific GSM stuff |
| 00:18.51 | jasta | which it ALMOST CERTAINLY WILL |
| 00:19.05 | jasta | ...or, you simply won't be able to port it. |
| 00:19.23 | jasta | which confirms my suspicion that android will not be the hobbyists dream that has many people excited. |
| 00:20.35 | Dougie187 | one sec lemme read this. |
| 00:25.24 | jasta | most of the article is fine, and what many of us know already |
| 00:25.31 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 00:25.38 | Dougie187 | its really long. |
| 00:25.39 | jasta | it's just that little bit about 8 of 11 million lines will be open sourced. |
| 00:25.42 | Dougie187 | what part makes you mad? |
| 00:25.54 | jasta | not having the ENTIRE project open sourced means that hobbyists will be crippled. |
| 00:25.57 | jasta | the portability will be ruined |
| 00:26.23 | Dougie187 | that blows. |
| 00:26.25 | jasta | you can reasonably assume the parts to always remain closed will be the big, important, mysterious pieces of cell phone software. |
| 00:26.51 | Dougie187 | why would they not open source everything. |
| 00:26.54 | Dougie187 | that seems pointless |
| 00:27.12 | jasta | i hope an effort is started to reverse engineer and bust those portions of the code. |
| 00:27.24 | jasta | just to give the finger to the OHA :) |
| 00:27.56 | Dougie187 | i bet someone would |
| 00:28.03 | Dougie187 | thats really stupid if they dont open source the whole thing. |
| 00:28.10 | Dougie187 | because the kinda defeats the purpose of being open source |
| 00:28.13 | jasta | Android may well serve as a useful platform for reverse engineering. With fine control of the platform stack's behaviour, and custom hardware, it may make it very easy to figure out what that code is doing |
| 00:28.21 | jasta | Dougie187: Yes, precisely. |
| 00:28.49 | jasta | Especially, again, if those closed pieces are critical to actually using a phone. |
| 00:28.58 | jasta | Since that's obviously the important part. |
| 00:29.32 | jasta | Google has screwed up everything. They should have never even claimed this project ot be open source. |
| 00:29.56 | Dougie187 | they should marked it as semi-open source. |
| 00:30.51 | rwhitby | jasta: re http://news.cnet.com/8301-13580_3-9949793-39.html, why did you expect it to be any different with Google - they are a company solely concerned with increasing advertising revenue, they are not an altruistic open source community project. |
| 00:30.53 | Dougie187 | market* |
| 00:31.07 | jasta | My biggest complaint about all of this is that they have outright deceived us now on two very important aspects of this platform. |
| 00:31.18 | jasta | a) that if you lose the ADC, you are barred from being an early adopter. |
| 00:31.35 | jasta | b) the platform will spend all its early life as closed source, only to be partially opened. |
| 00:31.55 | rwhitby | b) was clearly stated from the start by morrildl |
| 00:32.09 | jasta | rwhitby: False. |
| 00:32.27 | rwhitby | what does a) mean? are they not doing further SDK public releases? |
| 00:32.35 | jasta | In fact, I have expressed concerns numerous times to specifically Dan that the platform may not be fully open sourced, and also on the timeline of the source release. |
| 00:32.45 | jasta | His answers have changed drastically, especially in the last 3 months. |
| 00:33.07 | jasta | rwhitby: Nope, the ADC winners had to sign an NDA in order to get access to new SDK updates. The rest of us are out in the cold with a 3 month old, buggy release from now until launch. |
| 00:33.29 | rwhitby | jasta: ok, fully agree with a) then. |
| 00:33.52 | jasta | jasonchen and morrildl have claimed they will be making an announcement to clarify, but so far all week it has not come. |
| 00:34.06 | jasta | despite those e-mails going out Monday afternoon. |
| 00:34.24 | jasta | I suspect their clarification will be just as infuriating as their silence, though. |
| 00:34.33 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 00:34.40 | rwhitby | On b), I think the problem is that the media took a very carefully worded license and commitment by Google (which was never to open all source, onlt that specific bits would be under the Apache license and GPL'd bits would comply with the GPL) and turned that into an expectation that the whole thing would be open source. |
| 00:34.42 | jasta | The e-mail sent to the ADC winners claims this was done because the SDK releases will be unstable and with bugs. CHOKE ON YOUR LIES GOOGLE! |
| 00:34.43 | Dougie187 | i agree with you about morrildl's answers changing too |
| 00:35.28 | jasta | rwhitby: There was no reason to believe the source would be only partially released based on Google's official comments, and clarifications from morrildl and others. |
| 00:35.44 | jasta | They have mutated their responses as the process moved along, so as to seem that they were always consistent |
| 00:35.55 | Dougie187 | rwhitby: even from what you say, you would expect that all the source would be open. just some would be Apache License and the rest would be GPL |
| 00:35.56 | jasta | but they never have been. Initially, it was reasonable to expect full disclosure. |
| 00:36.05 | rwhitby | jasta: depends on the definition of what exactly was to be open sourced. |
| 00:36.25 | jasta | rwhitby: The definition was that Google never specified, but did not confirm or deny anyones suspicions regarding a partially closed platform. |
| 00:36.34 | jasta | Which I would call a lie by omission. |
| 00:36.34 | rwhitby | just the kernel, the VM, the Java SDK, the google apps, the oha member apps, the codecs, all these things are separate things. |
| 00:37.05 | rwhitby | ah, omission of things that people want to hear but google doesn't want to say is clear |
| 00:37.06 | jasta | I bet that not even elements of the kernel will be open sourced. |
| 00:37.27 | Dougie187 | isnt the kernel linux? |
| 00:37.28 | jasta | The kernel itself, yes, but nothing protects the modules. |
| 00:37.30 | rwhitby | but that's called "strategic marketing", and you should always expect nothing more from a company with shareholders. |
| 00:37.54 | jasta | rwhitby: Well believe me, I had assumed that partial source was in store for this platform. |
| 00:38.04 | jasta | But despite my best efforts, that was not confirmed until just now. |
| 00:38.08 | rwhitby | jasta: so did I. |
| 00:38.11 | rwhitby | from the beginning. |
| 00:38.47 | rwhitby | people who drank the cool-aid hype didn't want to believe it though, and google wasn't about to clarify cause that would not be in line with the marketing machine's message |
| 00:38.57 | jasta | However, to have it confirmed on the wake of my earlier point a) has just further infuriated me :) |
| 00:39.09 | Dougie187 | i would have expected that everything google developed be open sources. |
| 00:39.20 | jasta | Dougie187: well, that probably will be true |
| 00:39.27 | rwhitby | Dougie187: wow - that's a *really* unjustified expectation |
| 00:39.34 | rwhitby | hardly anything that google does is open sourced. |
| 00:39.45 | Dougie187 | and then manufacturers can make features for use by them not open sourced. |
| 00:39.47 | rwhitby | it's just that the things they do open source are really well marketed |
| 00:39.52 | jasta | i suspect that the OHA members, in particular, are driving more of the proprietary aspect of the platform. |
| 00:40.00 | jasta | Though it does not excuse Google for getting in bed with them. |
| 00:40.34 | rwhitby | jasta: Google is one of them. google is a company just like the others - you should not expect any different behaviour |
| 00:40.54 | jasta | For the record, I suspect that the ignorance of the OHA will be their undoing. This code is going to be ripped to pieces and many secrets they wanted to protect will become known. |
| 00:41.04 | rwhitby | jasta: fully agree |
| 00:41.21 | jasta | Not releasing source is insufficient to protect trade secrets. |
| 00:41.26 | rwhitby | as has happened with every other consumer device that companies wanted to keep secret. |
| 00:41.58 | jasta | rwhitby: But the degree here will be different, I think. Because the puzzle has so many pieces already in place, it will be much easier to complete. |
| 00:42.18 | rwhitby | but that doesn't stop them wanting to do it to reap the financial rewards of that strategy in the short term. shareholders expect returns each quarter, and companies respond to that demand. |
| 00:42.19 | jasta | And, the reward is great for such a task. Porting a robust software stack to other GSM-based technology would be incredible. |
| 00:43.00 | jasta | Anyway, I am still mostly pissed about the recent development that the SDK will be protected by an NDA. |
| 00:43.06 | jasta | that only 50 freaking people can access |
| 00:43.09 | rwhitby | yeah, that's just not right. |
| 00:43.18 | Dougie187 | yeah the NDA thing blows. |
| 00:43.20 | jasta | rwhitby: Especially given how much energy has been spent by the community already. |
| 00:43.26 | Dougie187 | although I havent heard anything new about it. |
| 00:43.31 | jasta | We worked hard to produce apps for the ADC and ultimately for Android. |
| 00:43.37 | jasta | and then they just slap us down for not winning. |
| 00:43.44 | rwhitby | jasta: fully agree with that |
| 00:44.02 | jasta | my reason for being an early adopter of Android was because I was excited to launch my application on a real handset. |
| 00:44.12 | Dougie187 | but... |
| 00:44.13 | Dougie187 | now you cant |
| 00:44.14 | jasta | I wanted to be fully ready to go when the launch happened. |
| 00:44.25 | rwhitby | of course, you could have expected this behaviour, cause the OHA members will want to have better first releases than the community |
| 00:44.38 | Dougie187 | true. |
| 00:44.41 | Dougie187 | i never thought of that. |
| 00:44.49 | Dougie187 | although OHA members are in the ADC |
| 00:44.51 | jasta | rwhitby: Actually, I did not expect this behaviour. I had expected, all along, that there were two separate trees. |
| 00:44.54 | rwhitby | so it's not really a surprise once you realise that google is a company in the OHA, not an altruistic entity for the global good. |
| 00:44.56 | jasta | one with all this proprietary weirdness |
| 00:45.01 | jasta | and another which the community could access |
| 00:45.05 | jasta | i figured that was always so. |
| 00:45.08 | jasta | apparently i was wrong. |
| 00:45.38 | jasta | bug fixes and new UI and database APIs are not secret. the community should not be barred from them. |
| 00:45.44 | jasta | it makes no f'n sense. |
| 00:45.49 | rwhitby | the motto is "Do No Evil", not "Always Do Good" ;-) |
| 00:46.09 | jasta | rwhitby: This upset in particular could not have been predicted, I think. |
| 00:46.46 | jasta | I was truly surprised to learn that they are discontinuing public releases. This, btw, was never hinted to despite our countless attempts to inquire as to when the next SDK would be available. |
| 00:47.35 | jasta | The greatest pain is feeling lead on. This greatly damages the communities trust, which is essential to uphold if you intend for them to do any work for you. |
| 00:47.36 | rwhitby | jasta: increasing closedness just before OHA member handset releases was always predicted |
| 00:47.57 | rwhitby | it's normal market pressures. |
| 00:48.00 | jasta | rwhitby: Sure, to some degree. Not eliminating releases. |
| 00:48.09 | rwhitby | Google as a company will respond just like any other company., |
| 00:48.18 | Dougie187 | i really dont see the benefit of discontinuing public releases. |
| 00:48.28 | jasta | There are a lot of things broken in the current SDK, and presumably many new improvements otherwise not secret coming between now and launch |
| 00:48.31 | Dougie187 | cant they keep proprietary features out of the SDK all together. |
| 00:49.24 | jasta | It just seems like some retard couldn't figure out branching :) |
| 00:49.57 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 00:50.07 | jasta | Though, as sad as it may seem, this is the best we've got in the mobile industry :( |
| 00:50.30 | Dougie187 | i think the thing that is kinda frustrating about reading that it will be open source, is that dan said earlier this week "We will fully release the source at a later time" or something similar to that |
| 00:50.45 | jasta | yeah, i recall hearing that as well. |
| 00:51.24 | jasta | I feel like Google has done a miserable job interfacing with the community on this project. |
| 00:51.51 | jasta | Which undermines all their attempts to otherwise encourage us to care. |
| 00:52.38 | jasonchen | jasta: we can branch plenty; the problem is overhead in maintaining them |
| 00:52.49 | rwhitby | jasta: that's why the prize money was required |
| 00:53.07 | rwhitby | this is not a normal open source project |
| 00:53.19 | Dougie187 | jasonchen: if it was open source though, couldnt you adopt some community developers to help in that aspect? |
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| 00:53.41 | rwhitby | if you need prize money to encourage developers to work on an exciting new platform, then you just know something is going to turn fishy ... |
| 00:54.02 | jasonchen | Dougie187: we could if it was open source, but it's not been released as open source yet. |
| 00:54.27 | jasonchen | and to be clear, the source will be released, but not until we get the first devices out the door. |
| 00:54.42 | Dougie187 | 100% of the source? |
| 00:54.56 | jasonchen | we want the first devices to really set the bar high for anyone else who might take it and ship phones with it. |
| 00:55.10 | rwhitby | 100% of the source that is required to be released by the licensing at least. You can't expect a company to promise to do more than that. |
| 00:55.23 | Dougie187 | i understand that. personally i didnt expect the source to be released until handsets came out. |
| 00:55.27 | Dougie187 | rwhitby: true. |
| 00:55.42 | jasonchen | Dougie187: yep. everything that we can release under Apache 2.0, we will. |
| 00:55.53 | Dougie187 | jasonchen: what about your NDAs? what if someone who signed an NDA wanted to help maintain Branches? |
| 00:55.58 | jasonchen | we've released patches already where required under GPL, EPL, and for Webkit. |
| 00:56.10 | rwhitby | Remember the OHA is not just Google, so even if Google did want to release source for everything, it's not possible to get all the companies in the OHA to agree to that. |
| 00:56.32 | Dougie187 | but google could release all the source they develop. |
| 00:56.40 | Dougie187 | and leave the stuff the other members dont want to release to them to deal with |
| 00:56.43 | rwhitby | As far as I can see, Google has been *very* careful to comply with all licensing, and I would expect that to continue. |
| 00:56.46 | jasonchen | NDAs are for SDK drops; getting source access is much higher. |
| 00:57.02 | rwhitby | Dougie187: since they are part of an alliance, that may not even be possible |
| 00:57.21 | rwhitby | (since there is probably conditions about release timing as part of the alliance agreement) |
| 00:57.24 | Dougie187 | any plan when you are going to release what you idea is for the community as far as the NDA with SDK for non-winners of the ADC will go? |
| 00:58.05 | jasonchen | rwhitby's right. as the News.com article mentioned, we'll be opening up things like PacketVideo's codecs, all of which require legal work between multiple companies to clear up |
| 00:58.58 | rwhitby | So you can expect Google to push to open up anything which they consider will be beneficial to the company goals on Google. You can't automatically assume a company will do anything else for more altruistic goals. |
| 00:59.02 | jasonchen | rwhitby: thanks for the compliment. Chris DiBona from our open source team has been making sure that we're diligent in meeting all of our open source obligations. |
| 00:59.43 | rwhitby | jasonchen: the google team is smart. they know that even a hint of non-complaince would be fatal to the project :-) |
| 01:00.01 | rwhitby | (since there are so many people watching so closely) |
| 01:00.23 | jasonchen | Dougie187: not sure i can parse your last question. can you re-state? |
| 01:00.27 | Dougie187 | heh |
| 01:00.28 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 01:00.35 | Dougie187 | sorry after reading it again it confused me as well. |
| 01:00.55 | Dougie187 | Well, so you guys have the whole "NDA for SDK releases for ADC winners" |
| 01:01.13 | Dougie187 | and i heard that you guys were going to release a statement about what the rest of the community can do. |
| 01:01.22 | Dougie187 | just curious if you had any idea on that yet. |
| 01:01.53 | rwhitby | Dougie187: the rationale behind that may be to ensure that no-one else from the community can create an app which is better than the ADC winners, to remove the risk of the marketing thunder being stolen. |
| 01:02.21 | Dougie187 | no, morrildl said earlier this week it was to protect the other OHA members who want proprietary features added into the SDK |
| 01:02.33 | Dougie187 | and the ADC winners were the people thought to need the SDK releases the most. |
| 01:02.39 | rwhitby | Dougie187: yep, that too. |
| 01:03.10 | rwhitby | (that would be the valid public reason - the other one I gave may well be an internal reason) |
| 01:04.07 | rwhitby | You really have to look at all these decisions from the viewpoint of a corporate decision making machine, involving legal, marketing, sales, OHA alliance relations, etc - you can't look at them from the point of view of an open source developer and expect to understand them) |
| 01:04.25 | jasonchen | Dougie187: we're working on that statement. it's been a little crazy trying to figure out everything around SDK release and also prep for Google I/O :-) |
| 01:04.47 | jasonchen | rwhitby: how ever did you get to be so sanguine about how companies work? :-) |
| 01:05.42 | rwhitby | jasonchen: I've worked at some big ones and some small ones :-) |
| 01:05.56 | rwhitby | and am also an open source developer. |
| 01:06.15 | rwhitby | So I get to see things from both sides, I presume just like you do. |
| 01:06.30 | jasonchen | indeed. glad you can bring that to the channel. |
| 01:07.13 | rwhitby | The only difference is that since I don't work for Google I can make these statements publicly ;-) |
| 01:12.49 | jasonchen | grrr, USB is being wonky on this macbook pro. i'll be right back. |
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| 01:15.15 | Dougie187 | jasonchen: how long do you guys expect until you give a statement? |
| 01:15.22 | Dougie187 | not that i care if you give it now. |
| 01:15.25 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 01:16.36 | jasta | jasonchen: it could be very sticky if nothing comes out before I/O. i for one will not have many things positive to say about Android until this is cleared up. |
| 01:17.09 | jasta | especially since the timing for I/O is all wrong: Google has thus far sent a clear message that they are not interested in early adopters anymore. |
| 01:17.44 | jasonchen | i would hope by EoD tomorrow, but this being before a long weekend and I/O, it might take until Tuesday EoD (PST) |
| 01:17.59 | jasonchen | jasta: why is the timing of Google I/O wrong? |
| 01:18.25 | jasta | why expose Android to developers now when you don't expect that any of them will be able to produce software for the platform until much later this year? |
| 01:18.32 | trigatch4 | son of a gun... my computer is about to overhead but i don't want to miss any of this conversation... what to do! :) |
| 01:19.15 | jasonchen | well, how would it look at I/O if there wasn't anything there about Android? |
| 01:19.23 | jasta | better. |
| 01:19.32 | jasta | much better. |
| 01:19.46 | jasta | it would look less like Google is trying to deceive the development community. |
| 01:20.21 | jasonchen | i would disagree. it's one of the biggest developer efforts that Google's engaged in and no mention at _the_ Google developer conference? that would seem odd at the very least, wouldn't it? |
| 01:20.44 | jasta | well then you have a conflict to resolve. |
| 01:21.03 | jasta | either make a pitch to developers, or don't. you can't have both. |
| 01:21.21 | jasonchen | jasta: that's not true since you're the one asserting that it would be better if we weren't there. |
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| 01:21.58 | jasta | Given the situation, I believe that. I would choose to hide the platform and just try to play damage control until it is launched. |
| 01:22.24 | jasta | However, if it were up to me, I would not have created this disaster. Google has actually "unreleased" a technology. |
| 01:22.39 | rwhitby | jasta: the environment of a google developers conference, which is made up of a very receptive audience by definition, will not be a disaster that you think |
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| 01:22.49 | trigatch4 | I can understand and appreciate the "not completely open source" thing, given the size and quantity of companies involved. Not to mention we're coming from a notoriously closed mobile infrastructure. |
| 01:23.03 | jasta | We're not talking about the open source nature rwhitby. |
| 01:23.19 | jasta | We're talking about the fact that you can't introduce developers to an SDK that is already stale and won't see any updates. |
| 01:23.33 | trigatch4 | But the unwillingness to release SDK's that are known improvements, to empower the folks embracing android and that will ultimately further the platform, I completely don't understand' |
| 01:23.36 | jasta | It makes no sense. Developers can't meaningfully develop against it, and will quickly see through this deception. |
| 01:23.56 | rwhitby | jasta: there will be many google developers there who haven't even seen the first SDK, and will lap up the current stale one. |
| 01:24.25 | jasta | Well, if that's the case, I will be happy to talk to anyone I can and caution them away from the platform. |
| 01:24.50 | jasta | Explaining that Google has simply lost control for the time being. |
| 01:24.57 | rwhitby | yes, every developer should robustly put forward their opinions on the platform. |
| 01:25.04 | trigatch4 | jasta: isn't that just out of spite? Android still is, regardless of short comings in handling SDK releases, a very promising platform |
| 01:25.33 | jasta | trigatch4: I didn't mean to imply that I think developers should avoid it permanently. |
| 01:25.50 | Dougie187 | he is just understandably upset that he cant work on his android app anymore. |
| 01:25.55 | jasta | Just that the timing of I/O was very unfortunate for Android enthusiasts, since they are being introduced to something already old and which will not be updated. |
| 01:26.00 | jasta | And so, should not embrace it now. |
| 01:26.02 | Dougie187 | at least until he hears the statement. |
| 01:27.02 | jasta | Again, I would like to make it clear that Google has effectively unreleased Android. Taken it back into their compound and away from the community. They can't then pretend to not have done so at I/O. That is doing a great disservice to enthusiasts. |
| 01:27.18 | rwhitby | jasta: the conference will likely be bullet points about future features anyway, rather than looking at fine details of SDK. |
| 01:27.27 | jasta | And I think ultimately will hurt their marketing attempt significantly. |
| 01:28.05 | jasta | My position would be different if the current SDK was anything resembling stable. |
| 01:28.23 | jasta | The fact that they won't even toss us a bone with maintenance releases of a buggy release is just pathetic. |
| 01:29.11 | jasonchen | jasta: part of the reason why we haven't yet released another SDK is b/c if we did, it would be buggy as well |
| 01:29.12 | jasta | My project's design is compromised working around the bugs already. I had suspended my work waiting for the next version so that I need not further perturb my design. |
| 01:29.17 | trigatch4 | jasta: so your main concern is that those who did not win ADC Round 1 makeup the vast majority of current Android developers. By not releasing the SDK to them they are crippling development and removing any advantage they had for their initial faith and development in Android buy allowing others to "catch up" |
| 01:29.35 | rwhitby | jasta: time to take a holiday away from development until the first handsets come out? or is android development part of your financial base and therefore one can understand your frustration? |
| 01:29.50 | jasonchen | we want to get to a place where we'll have less bugs and you won't have to work around them (hopefully) |
| 01:30.06 | jasta | trigatch4: That is my main personal concern, yes. |
| 01:30.24 | rwhitby | has no financial link to android, so can take a very impartial and dispassionate viewpoint. others may not be in the same position. |
| 01:30.35 | jasta | rwhitby: You seem to have missed something. My frustration should not need a professional or financial justification. |
| 01:30.47 | trigatch4 | And if all these developers bail on their Android Apps for this reason, there will be a much, much smaller selection of apps when handsets are released |
| 01:30.49 | jasta | I invested large amounts of my personal time here, and I feel wronged. |
| 01:31.01 | jasonchen | jasta: trust me when i say that we'll release an SDK w/ enough time for people for everyone to be ready before handsets are on the market. |
| 01:31.15 | rwhitby | jasta: yep, time investment is the same as a financial basis, since it's oppotunity cost. |
| 01:31.34 | rwhitby | (you could have been doing something else to make money with that time) |
| 01:31.34 | jasonchen | remember, there are lots of things involved in getting widgets out to stores. |
| 01:31.48 | trigatch4 | jasonchecn: thats a start... but are there any timetables you'll release or is it going to be a very general, open ended "when we feel like it" kind of thing |
| 01:32.04 | jasta | jasonchen: I do not accept that argument. Why then would it be necessary to offer those unstable enhancements to the participants in a challenge? |
| 01:32.10 | jasta | In fact, the only acceptable reasoning would be the opposite. |
| 01:32.14 | jasonchen | jasta: i'm sorry that you feel wronged, but i'm hoping that you'll see that this is only a temporary hold. i'm hopeful that you'll restart your development when we release the next SDK. |
| 01:32.18 | rwhitby | trigatch4: I expect Google has learnt a lesson from Openmoko about giving dates for hardare release :-) |
| 01:32.24 | jasta | That the ADC members must continue to develop on the existing "stable" platform, while the rest of us can play around in the unstable hell. |
| 01:33.05 | trigatch4 | he's got a point... |
| 01:33.20 | trigatch4 | if it's available, why force people to use somehting thats crappier than what you have available? |
| 01:33.30 | jasta | jasonchen: Do release that my project is far from "done". I would have needed to be developing from this point until launch to be ready. I don't see the need to continue knowing that there are massive disruptions to my basic design and approach that are coming in the "next SDK". |
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| 01:33.51 | jasta | err, realize* |
| 01:34.06 | rwhitby | trigatch4: there can be many non-technical reasons why something can't be released publicly. |
| 01:34.20 | rwhitby | it's usually not a technical decision. |
| 01:34.44 | jasonchen | jasta, trigatch4: take into account what rwhitby is suggesting. |
| 01:34.45 | Dougie187 | rwhitby: it doesnt make sense to allow the winners access but not the public though. |
| 01:35.13 | jasta | jasonchen: I understand his reasoning. |
| 01:35.16 | Dougie187 | it does seem vastly unfair to the development community. |
| 01:35.24 | jasta | I can still feel wronged for not having this information when I started 6 months ago. |
| 01:35.32 | trigatch4 | rwhitby: but to knowingly penalize the same people who are the first EVER to push your concept forward |
| 01:35.33 | rwhitby | Dougie187: it doesn't make sense from a technical or open source point of view. From a marketing release timeline and OHA member alliance competitive advantage point of view it may do |
| 01:35.38 | jasonchen | there are many forces (that we can't publicly discuss) that also influence releases |
| 01:35.40 | jasta | I can assure you, I would never have embraced Android knowing any of this initially. |
| 01:35.49 | Dougie187 | rwhitby: i dont think it make sense period. |
| 01:36.09 | rwhitby | Dougie187: the people making the decisions have very different drivers than you or I |
| 01:36.17 | Dougie187 | rwhitby: i understand the need for the NDA from that standpoint, but i think they should at least offer the same "option" to everyone involved. |
| 01:36.18 | jasta | More precisley, I would not have embraced it early. I would have much prefered to dismiss it and wait for handset launch and all these hideous details to pass me by. |
| 01:36.25 | jasonchen | jasta: you definitely are entitled to feel that way. however, i'd ask you to consider if the OHA knew 6 months ago that things would happen this way. |
| 01:37.00 | jasonchen | i assure you that we had no masterplan when we started to have things play out like this. things literally evolve both technically and politically on a week-to-week basis. |
| 01:37.35 | rwhitby | herding so many traditionally fully-closed companies in the OHA alliance would be an interesting task ... |
| 01:37.39 | jasta | Excuse me for being blunt, but who designed that mess? |
| 01:37.47 | jasonchen | what mess? |
| 01:38.03 | rwhitby | jasta: a committee? ;-) |
| 01:38.05 | jasta | How can you have as large a project as this truly changing fundamental direction on a weekly basis? |
| 01:38.35 | jasonchen | hopes that some day he'll be able to tell great stories about the birth of Android a la the Mac |
| 01:38.43 | jasta | Anyway, I must digress. I understnad where Google is coming from. |
| 01:38.45 | rwhitby | oh man. the SDK is just the *tiniest* piece of the whole Android project from a market point of view. |
| 01:39.15 | jasta | And I understand that they will feign sympathy at every attempt to complain. I remain unconvinced that Google has done the right thing. |
| 01:39.31 | rwhitby | imagine the negotiations that are going on behind closed doors between Google and all the OHA members and all the cellular network operators. |
| 01:39.41 | trigatch4 | I think Google is just in the precarious position of managing EVERYBODY'S interests. And sometimes they have to compromise because simply put, everyone can't have their way all the time. |
| 01:39.53 | rwhitby | you think the people making the decisions really care about what individual developers think about SDK releases? |
| 01:39.54 | trigatch4 | carreirs, manufacturer's, suppliers, consumers |
| 01:40.00 | trigatch4 | they all have different priorities |
| 01:40.05 | trigatch4 | and google has to find the balance |
| 01:40.15 | jasonchen | jasta: you have every right to be a skeptic; i just hope you'll give us a fair shake when things are to your satisfaction. |
| 01:40.32 | Dougie187 | rwhitby: no, but the individual developers care. and i would think that the individual developers would be a big portion of the target market for android. |
| 01:40.45 | trigatch4 | its tough though, looking at it from an enthusiastic developer who didn't win round 1 |
| 01:41.05 | Dougie187 | i just wanna hear the statement. |
| 01:41.11 | Dougie187 | to see what will end up being done about the SDK thing. |
| 01:41.23 | Dougie187 | I would think that if jasta got access he might cheer up. |
| 01:41.25 | Dougie187 | at little. |
| 01:41.29 | Dougie187 | until he had to sign the NDA |
| 01:41.36 | Dougie187 | and then he would forget while he was working on five. |
| 01:42.08 | jasonchen | trigatch4: i completely understand how that could color your view of things. |
| 01:42.37 | jasta | jasonchen: I have to go, but I will leave you with my central conclusion: We all can appreciate Google's reasons here, what we cannot accept is the lack of communication on these important topics. |
| 01:43.26 | jasta | So make your statement soon and let us chew on that :) |
| 01:43.44 | rwhitby | Dougie187: developers are only a small part of the equation for Google |
| 01:44.28 | Dougie187 | rwhitby: but i would think they would be a key one as well, even if a small one. |
| 01:44.36 | Dougie187 | granted there are many more parts. |
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| 01:44.54 | jasonchen | jasta: read you loud and clear. |
| 01:45.10 | rwhitby | Dougie187: I assume it's #1 priority when talking to developers, but far from that when making the high-level decisions |
| 01:45.25 | Dougie187 | heh. well. assuming they are the ones making the highlevel decisions. |
| 01:45.44 | Dougie187 | if its other OHA members, then I could easily see the "Screw individual developers" idea. |
| 01:45.50 | rwhitby | Dougie187: you can be sure that the people involved with the developers are probably *not* the ones making the decisions :-) |
| 01:46.12 | Dougie187 | well, i feel bad for them, as they get the short end of the stick with that aspect. |
| 01:46.36 | rwhitby | absolutely - the google staff in this channel would have a very hard life |
| 01:47.10 | Dougie187 | they are PR, Crowd Control, and Developers at the same time. |
| 01:47.11 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 01:47.16 | rwhitby | but it's their job, so you can't feel too sorry for them. And they get free food. |
| 01:47.22 | Dougie187 | hah |
| 01:47.41 | Dougie187 | well. i feel sorry for them if their idea of the way things should go doesnt click with the way things end up going |
| 01:47.48 | rwhitby | jasonchen: you guys still get free food, right? |
| 01:47.49 | Dougie187 | i dont like delivering news i dont agree with |
| 01:48.29 | jasonchen | rwhitby: of course! |
| 01:48.47 | rwhitby | there ya go - you can't feel sorry for people who get free food. |
| 01:49.03 | jasonchen | Dougie187: communicating w/ the developer community on good or bad news is how we earn our keep |
| 01:49.22 | Dougie187 | im just anxious to see the statement. |
| 01:49.39 | Dougie187 | lol hey jasonchen let me picth an idea at you. |
| 01:49.41 | Dougie187 | pitch* |
| 01:49.50 | Dougie187 | i pitched this the other day, but got mixed feed back. |
| 01:49.58 | Dougie187 | first off, do you use faxes? |
| 01:50.43 | jasonchen | well, we have fax numbers |
| 01:50.44 | jasonchen | and they're virtual (i.e. they get turned into PDF) |
| 01:50.44 | Dougie187 | lol, i mean do you ever have to send or receive faxes (not by choice) |
| 01:50.44 | Dougie187 | ok |
| 01:50.45 | Dougie187 | well |
| 01:50.49 | Dougie187 | this is similar to that then. |
| 01:50.55 | jasonchen | and i think we have copiers around that can send faxes. |
| 01:51.00 | jasonchen | ok, let's hear it. |
| 01:51.32 | Dougie187 | my idea, was to make an app, that would allow your android phone to accept faxes and save them as PDF then email them to yourself (to free up space). and Potentially send a fax from a PDF. Using JTAPI (but i dont know if android will support it) |
| 01:52.18 | Dougie187 | it would work by specific phone numbers in your phone book as fax machines so when they called your phone the app would automatically know to answer it as a fax. |
| 01:52.56 | jasonchen | sounds interesting. do many people use faxes now, though? (other than lawyers and construction folk?) |
| 01:53.19 | Dougie187 | Lol, i have to with student loans, and mortgage documents. |
| 01:53.35 | Dougie187 | and i know there are web services to do the same thing, but those cost money. and this would only cost you minutes on your phone |
| 01:53.57 | jasonchen | this is true; minutes or KB consumed from your data plan. |
| 01:54.13 | jasonchen | i would think, though, that the long term trend is away from paper. |
| 01:54.39 | Dougie187 | i just thought it would add a useful feature (that would be potentially indispensable to the right audience). and could improve the aspect of android for business men |
| 01:55.03 | jasonchen | definitely true. there'd be a niche that would really use that sort of thing. |
| 01:55.04 | Dougie187 | I agree the long term trend is away from paper. but it would give a free alternative to buying a fax machine and paying for a phone service, or paying for a web fax service. |
| 01:55.33 | Dougie187 | but i dont know if JTAPI would be supported by android either. |
| 01:55.35 | jasonchen | especially if you could take pictures of docs and turn them into PDF (thereby turning your camera into a doc scanner as well) |
| 01:55.47 | Dougie187 | that would be cool as well. |
| 01:55.52 | Dougie187 | heh make your phone a PDF sender. |
| 01:56.25 | jasonchen | now there's a way to change things |
| 01:56.35 | Dougie187 | whats that |
| 01:56.39 | jasonchen | make every android phone also a fax machine, copier, and scanner |
| 01:56.58 | Dougie187 | copier would be difficult. |
| 01:56.59 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 01:57.06 | Dougie187 | unless you can attach a printer to your android phone |
| 01:57.40 | jasonchen | bluetooth printer, perhaps? |
| 01:57.46 | Dougie187 | ohh perhaps. |
| 01:58.01 | Dougie187 | Do you have any idea about JTAPI? |
| 01:58.08 | jasonchen | honestly, i don't. |
| 01:58.11 | Dougie187 | ok. |
| 01:58.18 | Dougie187 | i had heard that android wouldnt support and JSR's |
| 01:58.26 | Dougie187 | but im not sure about that. |
| 01:58.31 | Dougie187 | granted JTAPI doesnt support faxes yet. |
| 01:58.46 | Dougie187 | but its supposed to in the future. |
| 01:59.55 | jasonchen | yeah, remember that Android apps are written in the Java language, but the platform is *not* a "Java(tm) Technology Platform) |
| 02:00.02 | Dougie187 | this is basically jut in the idea phase right now. |
| 02:00.09 | Dougie187 | yeah. |
| 02:00.13 | jasonchen | it's an idea w/ potential. |
| 02:00.17 | jasonchen | you should explore it |
| 02:00.25 | Dougie187 | i may in the future. |
| 02:00.34 | Dougie187 | i have two ideas i want to work on. |
| 02:00.46 | Dougie187 | that and the electric fence idea, but that idea is a lot more simple. |
| 02:01.08 | jasonchen | indeed |
| 02:01.18 | jasonchen | anyway, i have to get out of the office |
| 02:01.21 | Dougie187 | heh |
| 02:01.21 | Dougie187 | ok |
| 02:01.24 | Dougie187 | have fun. |
| 02:01.25 | jasonchen | and go see the S.O. |
| 02:01.27 | jasonchen | will do |
| 02:06.17 | trigatch4 | nice... now i can finally copy/paste this whole thing and restart my computer hehe |
| 02:07.50 | trigatch4 | back in a bit! |
| 02:13.02 | Dougie187 | lol |
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| 02:25.54 | rwhitby | From http://news.cnet.com/8301-13580_3-9949793-39.html: "The recent version 2.6.24 of the Linux kernel has about 8 million lines of code, but about 8.6 million lines of Android's 11 million are open-source, Rubin said." |
| 02:26.16 | Dougie187 | thats what jasta was upset about |
| 02:26.20 | rwhitby | Does that mean that only 600K lines of non-kernel google code out of 3 million are open source? |
| 02:26.45 | Dougie187 | i think that would be the assumption? |
| 02:27.24 | rwhitby | If so, it's a great marketing achievement. |
| 02:28.37 | rwhitby | I guess that's the figure today, rather than what it will be when handsets are released. That makes sense. |
| 02:28.46 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 02:29.00 | rwhitby | i.e. the SDK is not open souce today, and has never been promised to be open source before handsets are shipped. |
| 02:29.00 | Dougie187 | the idea is, when handsets are release so will the other 2.4 million |
| 02:29.16 | rwhitby | Dougie187: I highly doubt it will be the full 2.4 million |
| 02:29.33 | Dougie187 | well, morrildl said it would be completely open source after handsets release. |
| 02:29.43 | rwhitby | The SDK (which I believe is the only thing that has been promised to be open sourced) is not the whole thing |
| 02:30.11 | Dougie187 | i may have misunderstood, but i understood it to be the platform that was going to be open source. |
| 02:30.14 | rwhitby | e.g. the codecs that were mentioned before are not part of the SDK source |
| 02:30.24 | rwhitby | depends on your definition of "platform", doesn't it? |
| 02:30.28 | Dougie187 | true. |
| 02:30.34 | Dougie187 | but i think you understand what i mean by platform. |
| 02:30.39 | Dougie187 | for my understanding. |
| 02:30.56 | rwhitby | not really. it could mean the kernel, or the kernel plus dalvik, or the kernel plus dalvik plus sdk. |
| 02:31.19 | rwhitby | http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/bto/20080521/android_stack_540x387.jpg has four different levels which could be referred to as a "platform" |
| 02:31.22 | Dougie187 | i would assume everything that would be required to put android on a handset and develop software for it |
| 02:31.41 | rwhitby | ah, but what software? hello-world.java ? |
| 02:32.01 | Dougie187 | well i wouldnt aspect the same things to be open source that OHA members would get. |
| 02:32.06 | rwhitby | see this is the grey area that marketing can play with. |
| 02:32.10 | Dougie187 | i would think some aspects have to be proprietary for their points. |
| 02:32.26 | Dougie187 | true. but i wouldnt think those "modules" would be included in the definition of the android platform. |
| 02:33.06 | rwhitby | I wonder how big the SDK is in lines of source |
| 02:33.56 | rwhitby | Whenever I've seen morridl mention it, he's always been careful to word his statements to only refer to the SDK. But of course I haven't seen everything he's said, and haven't seen much recently. |
| 02:34.38 | rwhitby | And BTW, when Google says "Open Platform", be aware that that specifically does not mean "Open-Source Platform" |
| 02:35.07 | rwhitby | they are talking from the viewpoint of the cellular application ecosystem, not from the developer source code viewpoint. |
| 02:35.16 | Dougie187 | well what he said the other day, at least if i recall correctly, didnt include anything that referred to the SDK specifically, but i do agree they tend to carefully word things. |
| 02:35.37 | rwhitby | they are well trained to carefully work things. it's their job ;-) |
| 02:35.40 | Dougie187 | i understand. |
| 02:35.43 | rwhitby | s/work/word/ |
| 02:35.51 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 02:36.20 | rwhitby | and it's clear that the reporting by the media never understands the specificity of Google's statements. |
| 02:36.47 | rwhitby | and so you get people thinking the whole source code for everything on the phone will be released. which is certainly never going to happen. |
| 02:36.59 | rwhitby | (IMHO) |
| 02:37.23 | Dougie187 | i agree, but personally, i would think the things that wont be release will be the proprietary aspects that are specific to different vendors. |
| 02:37.38 | rwhitby | on what basis do you make that assumption? |
| 02:37.59 | Dougie187 | i guess the different articles i have read, and the conversations i have over heard. |
| 02:38.04 | rwhitby | I would it would be whatever benefits the revenue-raising corporate mandate of Google. |
| 02:38.10 | rwhitby | would expect ... |
| 02:39.07 | rwhitby | and there's nothing wrong with that - companies are companies purely to make money. otherwise they would be non-profit spinoffs or charities. |
| 02:39.18 | Dougie187 | i understand. |
| 02:39.35 | Dougie187 | i guess i would expect a bit different from google though. |
| 02:39.39 | Dougie187 | but thats a personal stand point. |
| 02:39.56 | rwhitby | ah, that just shows how good Google's recruitment marketing arm is :-) |
| 02:40.06 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 02:41.07 | rwhitby | and that's as it should be too - a company needs to hire the best to make the most money. |
| 02:41.19 | Dougie187 | yup |
| 02:42.35 | Dougie187 | either way. |
| 02:42.43 | Dougie187 | i wont end up giving up on android. |
| 02:42.50 | Dougie187 | i think the SDK issue is a bit disappointing. |
| 02:43.44 | rwhitby | the small number of developers that this disenfranchises will be minimal compared to the number of new developers when the handsets are released. |
| 02:43.53 | Dougie187 | exactly. |
| 02:43.56 | Dougie187 | but. |
| 02:44.17 | rwhitby | so whilst I agree it's disappointing, I can see why Google may make that hard decision if other factors are pushing it. |
| 02:44.47 | Dougie187 | i think it wont end up disenfranchising many developers at all. because this is a promising platform. |
| 02:45.01 | Dougie187 | and can have a lot of benefits as far as the mobile industry is concerned period. |
| 02:45.08 | rwhitby | There are only 68 people in this channel. Google's marketing deparment can easily send geeky toys to all of them to make up for it. |
| 02:45.22 | Dougie187 | haha, i dont think that will happen though. |
| 02:45.32 | Dougie187 | theres usually like 80 some people in this room too. |
| 02:45.53 | rwhitby | well I'm expecting a free handset from Google - they just don't know about it yet ;-) |
| 02:45.54 | Dougie187 | but what about that 1738 "teams" who lost ADC1 phase 1? |
| 02:45.59 | Dougie187 | haha |
| 02:46.13 | Dougie187 | i think a lot of developers are expecting free handsets from google. |
| 02:46.31 | rwhitby | they may be disappointed, cause Google doesn't make handsets :-) |
| 02:46.31 | Dougie187 | and have made it blatantly clear. |
| 02:47.13 | Dougie187 | heh yeah |
| 02:47.21 | Dougie187 | but i think they tried to make that clear from the get go |
| 02:49.23 | Dougie187 | but im not going to even consider starting to develop until the next SDK is out, |
| 02:49.32 | Dougie187 | (im not actively a developer yet) |
| 02:49.37 | Dougie187 | (and didnt participate in ADC1) |
| 02:50.49 | Dougie187 | either way. |
| 02:50.52 | Dougie187 | im out for tonight |
| 02:50.53 | Dougie187 | peace |
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| 02:54.06 | rwhitby | goes for lunch |
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| 05:59.54 | f00f- | anyone from amsterdam here? |
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| 07:59.49 | cutmasta | is away (away) |
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| 08:42.04 | jasta | yawn |
| 08:44.49 | duey | yawn |
| 08:45.02 | jasta | hey, thats my move |
| 08:45.29 | duey | I was feeling like a pirate |
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| 09:27.30 | cutmasta | is away (away) |
| 09:48.42 | cutmasta | is away (away) |
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| 10:19.14 | cutmasta | is away (away) |
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| 12:02.20 | Dougie187 | do any of you have an idea why a laptop would freeze on the bios loading screen? |
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| 12:17.37 | davidw | Dougie187, because it sucks. |
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| 12:38.16 | volmarias | Dougie187: bad bios? |
| 12:38.24 | volmarias | did you update firmware recently? |
| 12:38.27 | volmarias | has any hardware died? |
| 12:38.30 | Dougie187 | they did when i sent it in. |
| 12:38.33 | volmarias | did you pee on the laptop? |
| 12:38.35 | Dougie187 | i think i figured out what it was. |
| 12:38.44 | volmarias | peeing on the laptop generally has detrimental effects |
| 12:38.47 | volmarias | I learned this the hard way |
| 12:38.54 | Dougie187 | after you wait about 5 minutes staring at the bios loading screen it says "IDE #0 ERROR" |
| 12:38.56 | Dougie187 | lol |
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| 12:39.18 | volmarias | yeah, I think you found the answer. |
| 12:39.24 | Dougie187 | pretty awesome huh? |
| 12:39.32 | volmarias | totally rad. |
| 12:39.37 | Dougie187 | how do i get pee out of my laptop? |
| 12:39.56 | volmarias | with a straw and an iron stomach |
| 12:40.05 | Dougie187 | does a dog work? |
| 12:40.09 | volmarias | yes. |
| 12:40.18 | Dougie187 | it will probably take a bit longer. |
| 12:40.26 | Dougie187 | but ill give that a go and see if it helps. |
| 12:44.11 | Dougie187 | at least i can use ubuntus live cd |
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| 12:58.41 | Dougie187 | damnit. now i have to go back to stupid windows for another 3 weeks. |
| 12:58.46 | Dougie187 | while i send in my laptop to get fixed. |
| 12:58.48 | Dougie187 | this is gay. |
| 12:59.38 | ligi | Dougie187: you have my condolence |
| 13:00.15 | Dougie187 | lol i just want a new laptop. |
| 13:00.16 | Dougie187 | but oh well |
| 13:01.46 | ligi | Dougie187: insert some Linux - LiveCD |
| 13:01.57 | Dougie187 | i cant on the windows one. |
| 13:02.06 | Dougie187 | well. |
| 13:02.14 | Dougie187 | i probably could, but it would take a long time to get it to work. |
| 13:02.24 | Dougie187 | i dont think it would be worth using a live cd. |
| 13:02.31 | Dougie187 | im going to use a live cd on my laptop before i send it in though |
| 13:04.18 | Dougie187 | maybe muthu will buy me my laptop soon. |
| 13:04.18 | Dougie187 | hah |
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| 13:07.46 | Dougie187 | http://www.google.com/reader/view/?tab=my#stream/feed%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Ffeeds.engadget.com%2Fweblogsinc%2Fengadget |
| 13:07.48 | Dougie187 | wtf? |
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| 13:13.43 | davidw | ok, this has bugged me long enough |
| 13:14.06 | davidw | hrm... never mind |
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| 13:45.52 | Dougie187 | good morning jasonchen |
| 13:46.06 | jasonchen | howdy Dougie187 |
| 13:46.21 | Dougie187 | hows it going? |
| 13:47.14 | jasonchen | it's early; but i'm about to go have some tea, so it'll get better right quick |
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| 13:47.36 | Dougie187 | that sounds like fun. |
| 13:47.48 | jasonchen | how about you? |
| 13:47.57 | Dougie187 | lol well, my laptop hard drive failed this morning. |
| 13:48.03 | jasonchen | ack |
| 13:48.03 | Dougie187 | so i have to send it to the depot again. |
| 13:48.05 | jasonchen | that's not good |
| 13:48.08 | Dougie187 | and last time that happened it took 3 weeks |
| 13:48.42 | jasonchen | what brand laptop is this? |
| 13:48.47 | Dougie187 | toshiba. |
| 13:48.56 | Dougie187 | i want to get a lenovo, but i cant fork up the cash right now. |
| 13:49.25 | jasonchen | those thinkpads are good stuff. |
| 13:49.30 | Dougie187 | yeah. |
| 13:49.54 | Dougie187 | the sad part, is i just got my laptop back on tuesday. |
| 13:50.01 | Dougie187 | and they had replaced the HDD while it was in service. |
| 13:50.08 | jasonchen | that really is no good |
| 13:50.22 | Dougie187 | yeah. |
| 13:50.29 | Dougie187 | either way i think im goign to run it over to the drop off really quick. |
| 13:50.54 | Dougie187 | ill brb |
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| 14:07.19 | zhobbs_ | is Dalvik based on an OSS project? |
| 14:22.25 | jasonchen | zhobbs_: dalvik contains code from the Apache Harmony project. |
| 14:22.59 | jasonchen | however, it's not "based" on it, per se. |
| 14:23.26 | jasonchen | the tech lead for DalvikâDan Bornsteinâwill be talking in detail about the VM at I/O next week |
| 14:23.39 | zhobbs_ | jasonchen: yeah, looking forward to that |
| 14:23.45 | zhobbs_ | jasonchen: thanks for the info |
| 14:23.49 | jasonchen | yw. |
| 14:24.11 | jasonchen | btw, we will be contributing code back up to Harmony (if we haven't already) when Android is open-sourced. |
| 14:24.13 | zhobbs_ | these guys are confused a bit on this story: http://androidguys.com/2008/05/22/less-than-80-android-code-open-developers/ |
| 14:24.23 | zhobbs_ | jasonchen: great |
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| 14:25.44 | zhobbs_ | Ruben says "about 8.6 million lines of Android's 11 million are open-source"...and they took that as "will be" instead of "already is" |
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| 14:26.40 | jasonchen | yeah, i saw that in the article and thought it might be confusing. |
| 14:26.58 | jasonchen | i'm checking with andy to get clarification on what he meant and to see if he wasn't mis-quoted. |
| 14:28.40 | zhobbs_ | I'm assuming he meant that the 8.6 million lines are from open source projects and are already available |
| 14:28.59 | zhobbs_ | linux, misc apache, sqlite, etc,etc |
| 14:29.56 | zhobbs_ | oh, they modified the post now |
| 14:30.46 | jasonchen | nice work, zhobbs_ |
| 14:30.46 | zhobbs_ | webkit is probably pretty big |
| 14:31.11 | jasonchen | anyway, i should have more clarification about that statement soon-ish |
| 14:32.02 | jasonchen | yeah, there's probably a lot of code in a browser engine |
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| 14:33.22 | Dougie187 | hey jasonchen i have a question about android becoming open source. |
| 14:33.46 | Dougie187 | Is it going to be completely open source (SDK and all) except for proprietary modules for various vendors? |
| 14:33.56 | Dougie187 | or am i mistaken in understanding it that way? |
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| 14:35.25 | jasonchen | you're correct in understanding it that way. |
| 14:35.36 | Dougie187 | ok |
| 14:35.51 | Dougie187 | is google developing any of the modules for the vendors? |
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| 14:35.57 | jasonchen | the sdk, the tools, the app framework, everything short of some hardware specific drivers will be open sourced. |
| 14:36.19 | jasonchen | i'm not sure what you mean by modules. |
| 14:36.33 | Dougie187 | well i am just calling the hardware specific drivers modules. |
| 14:36.35 | Dougie187 | i guess. |
| 14:36.47 | Dougie187 | im thinking that they might not be completely hardware specific. |
| 14:37.04 | Dougie187 | i would think they might develop some app or feature that would then be specific to their phones or handsets and they wouldnt want to release those. |
| 14:37.20 | Dougie187 | but i would expect those to be handled by the vendors 100% |
| 14:37.44 | jasonchen | we're working with our hardware/semiconductor partners, sure. hard to say where google does the work and where another company is doing it, since the effort is so colloaborative. |
| 14:37.54 | Dougie187 | ok |
| 14:38.12 | Dougie187 | are some of the hardware specific drivers going to be release? or are all of them going to be closed source? |
| 14:38.53 | jasonchen | also, remember, if there's a hardware specific feature, it also has to be exposed up into the system via the app framework or system services. and to do that, the Android team will be creating generalized interfacesâfor hardware sensors, for example. |
| 14:39.18 | Dougie187 | yeah, that was my understanding of why the new SDK required a NDA |
| 14:39.36 | jasonchen | i don't know the exact tale of the tape, but there will likely be some hardware drivers that might be released as binary-only. |
| 14:39.38 | Dougie187 | because there were interfaces that would then give the public hints as to cool hardware features that vendors are releasing. |
| 14:40.22 | jasonchen | but i do know that the Alliance has released Linux drivers for Qualcomm's MSM 7000 series boards (a first for Linux) |
| 14:40.38 | Dougie187 | thats cool |
| 14:40.46 | Dougie187 | im excited for ADC2. |
| 14:40.51 | jasonchen | so in some cases, there may be source for the drivers released. |
| 14:40.55 | Dougie187 | and to hear what we can do to get into the SDK. |
| 14:42.20 | jasonchen | gtg for now. early morning meeting. |
| 14:42.29 | Dougie187 | ok |
| 14:42.31 | Dougie187 | well have fun! |
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| 15:12.43 | cutmasta | is away (away) |
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| 15:21.41 | trigatch4 | jasta: you around? |
| 15:22.07 | Dougie187 | lol whens he not around? |
| 15:23.18 | trigatch4 | when he flips out about SDKs and forces himself to take a walk around the block before he crushes his entire desktop comxputer in the palm of one hand |
| 15:23.30 | trigatch4 | ;) |
| 15:24.27 | Dougie187 | with a jasta smash? |
| 15:24.27 | Dougie187 | lol |
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| 15:26.05 | trigatch4 | jasta... |
| 15:26.09 | trigatch4 | it sounds like.... |
| 15:26.32 | trigatch4 | I just picture Blanka when he gets mad hehe |
| 15:26.36 | trigatch4 | from Street Fighter |
| 15:26.48 | Dougie187 | hah yeah |
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| 15:27.04 | trigatch4 | Do you know much about J2ME Dougie? |
| 15:27.11 | Dougie187 | nope. |
| 15:27.13 | Dougie187 | do you? |
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| 15:42.19 | trigatch4 | unfortunately not |
| 15:42.36 | trigatch4 | Dougie you have an android blog right? |
| 15:42.41 | trigatch4 | I always mix up whose is whose |
| 15:44.04 | Dougie187 | lol no |
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| 15:55.15 | trigatch4 | oh dang |
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| 15:57.39 | jasta | yawn |
| 15:58.19 | Dougie187 | good morning jasta |
| 15:58.44 | jasta | morning |
| 15:58.49 | jasta | i'm working from home today. sweet ;0 |
| 16:01.16 | Dougie187 | nice |
| 16:01.19 | Dougie187 | more time to spend in the android chat |
| 16:01.38 | jasta | actually, my friend has the day off, i'm bbqing at noon ;) |
| 16:17.54 | jasta | well, that was the plan until i looked outside |
| 16:17.57 | jasta | crap, it's gonna rain all day |
| 16:21.36 | Dougie187 | same here |
| 16:22.11 | trigatch4 | its beautiful here |
| 16:22.13 | trigatch4 | :) |
| 16:23.28 | trigatch4 | jasta: i meant to ask you, earlier (last week) you mentioned something about J2ME and how you wondered how they will prevent Android from becoming fragmented in the same manner. Hoping you could explain that a bit if you don't mind? |
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| 17:14.31 | Dougie187 | man this room is quiet lately. |
| 17:14.35 | Dougie187 | except for arguments. |
| 17:14.36 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 17:19.07 | Hai-Fai | naah, it's your imagination |
| 17:19.22 | Dougie187 | what makes you say that? |
| 17:20.50 | dmoffett | Jasta: I have been curious for a few days. What exactly is an AssHat? :-) |
| 17:21.00 | Dougie187 | haha |
| 17:21.37 | dmoffett | I will probably be called one soon so I better know what it is. |
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| 18:13.08 | jasta | trigatch4: actually i didn't say anything about J2ME. |
| 18:13.23 | jasta | though i do have ideas on why Android won't fork: because the OHA won't permit it. |
| 18:14.07 | trigatch4 | jasta: yeah yea did... i was asking for interview questions for Rich Miner and you said, "ask him what they will do to keep the platform from being fragmented like J2ME" |
| 18:14.15 | trigatch4 | but, i already had my interview |
| 18:14.24 | jasta | no, i'm sure that i did not say that. |
| 18:14.39 | trigatch4 | wasn't with rich miner though, it was with Eric Chu |
| 18:14.44 | jasta | maybe i said it with everything minus the "like J2ME", because i would not have called J2ME fragmented. |
| 18:14.59 | jasta | J2ME was designed to be fragmented. It was also designed to be sucky. |
| 18:15.06 | trigatch4 | ha |
| 18:15.52 | jasta | but at any rate, it's clear why Android won't fork: because users will not have the option to install forked versions themselves, and handset manufacturers will never accept anything that deviates from the main tree. |
| 18:15.52 | trigatch4 | I'm pretty sure you said that, I may have written it down wrong but I wrote it down |
| 18:15.56 | trigatch4 | Oh well, it's a moot point |
| 18:16.19 | jasta | therefore there is no reason to fork. |
| 18:16.43 | jasta | in the open source community, forks work because you can appeal to other open source enthusiasts to get your version accepted over another |
| 18:16.57 | jasta | for example, Ubuntu, Debian, RedHat, etc. |
| 18:17.36 | jasta | In this case, handset manufacturers replace distributions, and those companies do not otherwise apply the open spirit. You will not have the same level of appeals to them, and they won't care what you have to say. |
| 18:19.18 | jasta | That said, with Android being as flexible as they claim, there is little need to fork. You should be able to accomplish much with just patches and third party apps. |
| 18:22.12 | jasta | dmoffett: someone who has their head up their ass ;) |
| 18:22.43 | dmoffett | ah self deflation. |
| 18:23.00 | jasta | what? |
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| 18:24.46 | dmoffett | just another way of saying head up ass |
| 18:25.03 | jasta | but a better way :) |
| 18:25.38 | dmoffett | I like asshat. |
| 18:36.31 | jasta | well it sure was fitting |
| 18:38.40 | dmoffett | lol |
| 18:42.08 | Dougie187 | who did you call an asshat jasta? |
| 18:42.30 | jasta | i dunno, everyone. |
| 18:42.39 | Dougie187 | ... |
| 18:42.39 | Dougie187 | ok |
| 18:43.34 | jasta | probably just at Google in general |
| 18:43.46 | jasta | or maybe Dan, for the unfair reason that he represents them :) |
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| 18:45.57 | Dougie187 | i havent heard much from dan lately |
| 18:46.02 | Dougie187 | just jasonchen |
| 18:46.11 | dmoffett | He's trying to take off that hat. |
| 18:46.18 | Dougie187 | hah |
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| 19:36.29 | jasta | anyone wanna take bets on when the blog post is coming out about the SDK debacle? |
| 19:36.41 | Dougie187 | tuesday |
| 19:36.43 | jasta | i say Tuesday, very late. |
| 19:36.56 | jasta | like, maybe even after the normal close of business |
| 19:37.04 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 19:37.08 | Dougie187 | i dont know about that late. |
| 19:37.10 | jasta | so that people attending I/O have as little time to chew on it as possible |
| 19:37.13 | Dougie187 | i would say... around 4pm |
| 19:37.29 | Dougie187 | 4pm PST |
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| 19:55.03 | Dougie187 | hey jasta |
| 19:55.08 | Dougie187 | did you hear about my ordeal this morning? |
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| 19:56.44 | jasta | no? |
| 19:57.04 | Dougie187 | so, i got my laptop back on tuesday right? |
| 19:57.09 | Dougie187 | and i got ubuntu all set up on it and what not. |
| 19:57.14 | Dougie187 | today i wake up. and turn on my laptop. |
| 19:57.18 | Dougie187 | to find out it has a dead HDD |
| 19:57.22 | jasta | lol |
| 19:57.24 | Dougie187 | which they just replaced when i sent it in |
| 19:57.34 | jerkface03 | you people and your ubuntu |
| 19:57.44 | Dougie187 | it sat at the bios screen for 5 minutes and proceeded to tell me "IDE #1 ERROR" |
| 19:57.50 | jasta | perhaps your laptop has another problem you did not realize ;) |
| 19:57.51 | Dougie187 | or #0 |
| 19:57.52 | Dougie187 | something like that |
| 19:58.02 | jasta | check the hdd in another laptop |
| 19:58.12 | Dougie187 | then i tried to install both ubuntu and windows, and they couldnt find any harddrives. |
| 19:58.15 | Dougie187 | pfft, i sent it back |
| 19:58.18 | Dougie187 | i only have one other laptop. |
| 19:58.27 | Dougie187 | and the hard drive is barely usable in that one |
| 19:58.28 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 19:58.54 | jasta | why did you send it in to replace the HDD, btw? |
| 19:59.03 | Dougie187 | before i never told them to replace the HDD |
| 19:59.11 | jasta | 5 minutes and a screwdriver can do that. |
| 19:59.12 | Dougie187 | they did it themselves because they couldnt figure out how to clean off grub |
| 19:59.12 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 19:59.24 | Dougie187 | +paying for a new hard drive. |
| 19:59.27 | Dougie187 | its still under warranty |
| 19:59.29 | Dougie187 | so they replace it for free |
| 19:59.32 | jasta | well you can make them send you a hard drive |
| 19:59.43 | jasta | instead of giving them the whole laptop |
| 19:59.47 | jasta | that way at least you can use a live cd ;) |
| 20:00.09 | Dougie187 | true, but its 2.5 years old. and typically if you send in your laptop 3 times for repairs you can coax them into sending you a comepletely new laptop |
| 20:00.21 | jasta | 2.5 years old? just buy a new one. |
| 20:00.31 | Dougie187 | i dont feel like throwing money at the issue. |
| 20:00.35 | Dougie187 | nor do i have enough yet. |
| 20:00.36 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 20:00.44 | Dougie187 | i need to save up more for a laptop before i buy it |
| 20:00.52 | jasta | that's all i do with technology anymore |
| 20:00.54 | jasta | i'm so done futzing with it |
| 20:01.03 | Dougie187 | i enjoy futzing with it. |
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| 20:01.05 | Dougie187 | personally |
| 20:01.11 | jasta | yeah, and i used to |
| 20:01.26 | Dougie187 | i guess i get irritated with it after doing it long enough |
| 20:01.34 | Dougie187 | but then a break makes me enjoy it again |
| 20:02.02 | Dougie187 | the thing i dont like doing though |
| 20:02.36 | Dougie187 | is helping a computer illiterate person work their way through a problem. |
| 20:03.05 | Dougie187 | time to go board my dog. |
| 20:03.07 | Dougie187 | ill bbl |
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| 20:35.05 | f00f- | Water Boarding -- For Dogs and Terrorists(TM) |
| 20:35.54 | jerkface03 | not funny |
| 20:36.02 | jerkface03 | not the dog part anyways |
| 20:38.33 | f00f- | then i dont want to even know what he is doing with his dog |
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| 21:31.37 | jasta | teehee |
| 21:31.57 | jasta | somebody pulled that Cc my boss stunt on something i forgot to do |
| 21:32.22 | jasta | so i just blasted them in the response. |
| 21:32.43 | jasta | i really hate when people play that card. |
| 21:37.33 | zhobbs | I'm getting a binary xml error I can't figure out...says that I must supply the layout_width attribute |
| 21:37.47 | jasta | can you paste the relevant section? |
| 21:37.51 | zhobbs | the View is just a subclass of LinearLayout |
| 21:37.56 | jasta | or actually, pastebin the whole layout if you can :) |
| 21:38.07 | jasta | well any view still needs android:layout_width |
| 21:38.11 | zhobbs | it's inflated from an xml file with 2 textviews... |
| 21:38.12 | jasta | even if you just want wrap_content |
| 21:38.47 | zhobbs | yeah, I specify that in the xml for the custom view's tag and all the tags in the view's xml |
| 21:39.12 | jasta | well i can't help if i can't see :) |
| 21:39.19 | zhobbs | yeah, one sec |
| 21:42.07 | zhobbs | http://android.pastebin.com/m72673f3c |
| 21:43.06 | jasta | hang on, let me digest ;) |
| 21:43.37 | zhobbs | jasta: added some more info: http://android.pastebin.com/d1e8cd7f9 |
| 21:43.37 | jasta | well, you have an android:layout_below here? which references an item not even in this view? |
| 21:43.49 | zhobbs | oh yeah |
| 21:43.59 | jasta | that's only for relative layouts too |
| 21:44.08 | zhobbs | woops...copy/paste slip up :) |
| 21:44.53 | zhobbs | doubt that will fix it...but trying |
| 21:45.48 | zhobbs | yeah, doesn't fix |
| 21:46.35 | jasta | then i have no immediate ideas. does "this" have a layout parameter? |
| 21:46.39 | jasta | in its usage, i mean |
| 21:46.47 | zhobbs | do I need to implement onMeasure()? |
| 21:46.57 | jasta | not if you extend a LinearLayout |
| 21:47.40 | zhobbs | this in the view? |
| 21:48.05 | zhobbs | I've even tried doing this in the constructor of the view class: setLayoutParams(new LayoutParams(LayoutParams.FILL_PARENT, |
| 21:48.05 | zhobbs | LayoutParams.WRAP_CONTENT)); |
| 21:48.05 | jasta | i mean, maybe the problem isn't with that XML file, but rather in the usage of your extended LinearLayout |
| 21:48.26 | jasta | hmm, i really don't know then. that seems strange. |
| 21:48.33 | jasta | and romain is gone for a week :) |
| 21:48.39 | zhobbs | doh! |
| 21:48.40 | jasta | sorry, i have to run though. gf got off work early |
| 21:48.46 | zhobbs | cya |
| 21:49.24 | zhobbs | it might be the way I'm inflating there...I've had problems with the root param |
| 21:50.02 | zhobbs | maybe I should inflate it on it's own and then this.addView() |
| 22:02.20 | zhobbs | wish I would have gotten to romain earlier! |
| 22:10.05 | _avatar | hrm, can i embed an arbitrary file resource into my android app? one i can load later at runtime? |
| 22:12.26 | zhobbs | you can include a file with your app and read it and stuff |
| 22:13.00 | zhobbs | put it into assets |
| 22:13.08 | zhobbs | or res/raw |
| 22:13.25 | _avatar | very cool, thanks :) |
| 22:13.47 | zhobbs | jasta: damn, that error must be a bug...the view works fine if I use it in a different layout :( |
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