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| 00:16.10 | jasta | wow, just a simple logic error :) |
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| 00:29.32 | tmcneal | man. it's a pain to get images to look right with a black background and white background |
| 00:56.01 | jasta | i'm being really stupid today |
| 00:56.06 | jasta | i should just quit and go do something else :) |
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| 01:46.49 | tmcneal | anyone found anyway to modify the TabWidget in such a way that it displays an icon only on the selected tab? |
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| 01:49.29 | jasta | tmcneal: I'm actually doing that right now. |
| 01:49.42 | jasta | Using a more custom view instead of their default label/icon thing. |
| 01:49.50 | jasta | i'll post a simple demo when i'm done |
| 01:50.19 | chomchom | Good call. I'd appreciate that as well. |
| 01:50.32 | tmcneal | sa-weet. thanks jasta |
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| 04:45.39 | jasta | For anyone interested: http://devtcg.blogspot.com/2008/03/advanced-tab-activity-demo.html |
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| 04:59.02 | rhett | hey, does anyone know about possible business distribution models for android |
| 04:59.22 | rhett | like, if I want to sell my app per install or per month usage? |
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| 05:02.33 | B0jangles | you're getting the cart a bit ahead of the horse...there aren't any Android devices yet, let alone distribution channels... |
| 05:03.41 | rhett | Well, for one thing, it's really easy to decompile all java apps, from my understanding, so it would be hard for anyone to put lockdowns or even be able to trust a client |
| 05:04.52 | B0jangles | I think there will eventually be a way to write native binaries |
| 05:05.55 | rhett | it's pretty clear how to sell an iphone app, and like you're saying, there are no distribution channels for android. That's fine with me if they just want to encourage open source software on their platform, but I just want to be aware about what kind of business model I should expect to embrace for my app |
| 05:06.39 | B0jangles | nobodyreally knows yet... |
| 05:12.05 | rhett | has anyone printed out the android docs? |
| 05:12.11 | rhett | it's hard to print html... |
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| 05:27.31 | raidfive | does anyone know if you can customize the options menu? by default it has a gap above the text for an icon but I don't plan on displaying an icon so I am wanting to get rid of that gap |
| 05:34.09 | jasta | you should definitely display an icon. even if it's sort of a stupid one :) |
| 05:37.43 | rhett | I want to be able to use their DatePicker, but make certain dates have static background colors, with a legend |
| 05:39.15 | rhett | out do I figure out if that's possible? the DatePicker class has a lot of attributes and methods... |
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| 05:40.33 | jasta | dunno, i've never looked at that particular widget |
| 05:41.00 | rhett | i guess I might have to make my own "calendar" with a table layout |
| 05:42.36 | rhett | oooh, I can set a background, from android.view.View, since the size of the datepicker doesn't change I could just make the background be one big file |
| 05:46.49 | raidfive | why the push for an icon in the options menu? :) |
| 05:47.32 | raidfive | are they suppose to be 64x64 like the application icon? |
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| 06:51.33 | raidfive | http://code.google.com/android/samples/ApiDemos/src/com/google/android/samples/text/Link.html |
| 06:51.37 | raidfive | haha, is that a joke? |
| 06:55.57 | raidfive | what a useless example |
| 06:56.06 | rhett | then don't use it raidfive ;) |
| 06:56.30 | raidfive | how do I make some text a link to a website? :) |
| 07:06.20 | rhett | Feel free to create more lucid examples |
| 07:07.16 | raidfive | does google have a place to submit user created examples? |
| 07:07.49 | raidfive | seems like making text a link would be easy but I can't find any docs on it |
| 07:08.42 | rhett | http://android-developers.blogspot.com/ |
| 07:08.50 | rhett | that wiki example showed up on google code |
| 07:13.10 | raidfive | cool I'll read over that |
| 07:15.28 | rhett | it would be cool to see some open projects that were open even before the contest deadline like wiki-notes win a prize |
| 07:25.57 | jasta | the major issue is probably not the challenge itself, but the fact that good code takes a long time to author. |
| 07:26.15 | jasta | my project, for example, is not currently mature enough to release anyway. |
| 07:26.37 | jasta | and even after the first round, i suspect there will still be lots of problems barring it from widespread use. |
| 07:29.18 | rhett | yeah, that's another thing, there is a huge difference between a project that has been worked on for 6 months and 1 month, so a lot of people who started earlier will have a lot more mature projects |
| 07:29.31 | rhett | I suspect the round 2 will have much stiffer competition |
| 07:29.41 | rhett | also, they don't even consider their sdk alpha yet |
| 07:30.07 | jasta | i started just after christmas, and i still have a long, long way to go for a mature product. |
| 07:30.16 | jasta | and i have not been slacking, i just have a very large and sophisticated project. |
| 07:30.19 | rhett | do you think you'll win, jasta ? |
| 07:30.40 | jasta | i think that is a strong possibility |
| 07:30.49 | rhett | wow, that's awesome |
| 07:31.46 | jasta | my application is certainly non-trivial, does not currently exist in any known fashion, and is very practical. my interpretation of the challenge rules is that my project is spot on to what google is looking for. |
| 07:32.35 | rhett | I'd like to be able to post sample apks for people download after I submit it, but I would want for those alpha apps to expire if I ever wanted to sell the final version |
| 07:33.03 | rhett | i don't know if apps will auto-update or what. It sure would be annoying to turn on my phone and see it needs to update 5 apps |
| 07:33.50 | jasta | honestly, you should just ignore what you can't control. |
| 07:33.56 | jasta | and be willing to adapt as necessary |
| 07:36.31 | rhett | I don't get what google gets out of projects that they give the final awards to. Like say, you have a pretty good music app, and it's in the top 10, and they give you $275k, according to what I see, you are under no obligation to improve it after that |
| 07:37.28 | jasta | no, but that would be counter-intuitive. |
| 07:37.48 | jasta | i mean, if you get $300K from google and want to develop a commercial app, you already have a strong starting point to make way, way more money. |
| 07:38.13 | jasta | if you get $300K from google and all you wanted was a simple open source app, you could release it and never work on it again |
| 07:38.33 | rhett | so, what would you do jasta ? |
| 07:38.58 | jasta | i will be releasing my app open source after round 1 is over. |
| 07:39.01 | rhett | I don't see the business plan for making way more money at this point, with the iphone it's obvious |
| 07:39.59 | jasta | i am wanting to enter the mobile industry in other ways, not through this app. |
| 07:40.13 | jasta | i will probably take the resulting notoriety and use it to make some "adjustments" to my career. |
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| 07:40.58 | rhett | sounds like you have more figured out than I do, jasta :) |
| 07:45.28 | jasta | i will happily admit that my primary reason for developing my challenge app is because i personally want this app to exist. |
| 07:45.33 | jasta | i personally want to use it, on my cell phone. |
| 07:46.17 | jasta | it is merely a side-effect that it might be worth $300K to Google. |
| 07:48.51 | rhett | so, are people normally going to be using the touch screen or the arrow-pad? |
| 07:49.04 | rhett | are some android devices not going to have touch screens? |
| 07:49.50 | rhett | for example, with the iphone, some apps come up with usable buttons instead of having to hit the menu button, which is nicer when you are using the touch screen primarily |
| 07:50.16 | rhett | but the default android contact list, for example requires that you hit the menu button to add a contact |
| 07:50.28 | rhett | i would find that annoying compared to an iphone |
| 07:53.56 | _avatar | hmm, so I'm monitoring heap usage in my application, and routinely see it raise to about 70%... should i worry about it being so high? what happens when it reaches 100%? |
| 07:57.34 | _avatar | will the process be killed? will i throw an out of memory exception? |
| 07:57.49 | _avatar | i don't plan on reaching 100%, but it'd be nice to know what type of behavior to expect :) |
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| 09:39.33 | rhett | any idea what the best way to change a widget background dynamically is? |
| 09:44.43 | rhett | on neat .setBackgroundColor |
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| 11:20.17 | cutmasta | mornin |
| 11:26.04 | rhett | morning cutmasta |
| 11:27.06 | rhett | some ukranian company just bid on my elance android project and sent me a demo of a project they made, they said it took them 200 hours... I'm not that impressed |
| 11:27.25 | cutmasta | :) |
| 11:27.46 | rhett | if anyone wants to see the demo though I could post it somewhere |
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| 12:46.53 | rhett | hey, I'm having trouble creating a custom component, mmm |
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| 13:47.40 | muthu | time for a new topic! |
| 13:47.54 | zhobbs | yea |
| 13:56.52 | rhett | http://pastebin.ca/955239 |
| 13:57.40 | rhett | how do I get that datepicker to show up with a white background? I can make it white if I do dp.setBackgroundColor, but I want to customize my own class |
| 13:59.19 | zhobbs | why don't you just call this.setBackgroundColor in the constructor for CustomDatePIcker |
| 14:00.21 | rhett | i did that too, that doesn't work |
| 14:00.36 | rhett | i tried a bunch of things, i just didn't paste all the failures |
| 14:00.51 | rhett | this.setBackgroundColor(0xFFFFFFFF); |
| 14:00.52 | zhobbs | it works to set the background color in the Activity? |
| 14:00.58 | rhett | yes |
| 14:01.15 | rhett | oh, in the constructor, or in the ondraw override? |
| 14:01.32 | zhobbs | I would think you could call it in the constructor |
| 14:01.51 | rhett | ok that works |
| 14:01.57 | rhett | why not the ondraw override? |
| 14:02.04 | rhett | thanks zhobbs I suck at java |
| 14:02.11 | rhett | it must be something obvious I guess |
| 14:02.33 | zhobbs | ondraw is for when you want to draw the whole thing yourself |
| 14:03.00 | zhobbs | better to just set the bg color in the constructor and then let the normal ondraw do it's stuff |
| 14:03.43 | zhobbs | or ondraw can be used to add some kind of overlay, or tint, etc |
| 14:03.56 | rhett | cool, thanks zhobbs |
| 14:08.52 | jasta | zhobbs: hey, i wrote a pretty cool TabActivity demo if you're interested |
| 14:09.01 | jasta | http://devtcg.blogspot.com/2008/03/advanced-tab-activity-demo.html |
| 14:09.13 | muthu | cool jasta |
| 14:09.22 | muthu | downloading.. |
| 14:09.58 | jasta | it dawned on me that i actually had the necessary information to do this thanks to my earlier reverse engineering :) |
| 14:10.16 | muthu | have you checked the tab lifecycle? |
| 14:10.25 | jasta | i found layout-finger/tab_indicator.xml, color-finger/tab_indicator_text.xml, ... ;) |
| 14:10.35 | jasta | muthu: what do you mean? |
| 14:10.46 | muthu | i was having trouble with the lifecycle |
| 14:11.01 | jasta | hmm, didn't seem to be an issue for me, though my demo is very small |
| 14:11.04 | muthu | was trying to use an "intent" as the tab content |
| 14:11.11 | jasta | that is what i did. |
| 14:11.25 | muthu | cool..i'll feedback after checking it out |
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| 14:14.50 | jasta | btw, the graphics i made are kind of terrible. if anyone would like to improve, i'd very much so appreciate it. i'm intending to use this code in the way that i have demonstrated :) |
| 14:15.00 | jasta | (hehe, i am ripping off the iphone left and right *grin*) |
| 14:15.34 | muthu | i'm terrible at graphics |
| 14:23.37 | muthu | jasta: neat! |
| 14:23.59 | zhobbs | jasta: nice demo, we need to keep copying the iPhone |
| 14:24.27 | jasta | i am not very creative, so i have little choice but to steal from things that i know people like. |
| 14:24.39 | zhobbs | I'm the same way |
| 14:24.44 | muthu | tab_indicator.xml - impressive |
| 14:25.15 | jasta | which one? there is a drawable and layout |
| 14:26.12 | muthu | drawable - of course |
| 14:26.20 | muthu | jasta: you've covered the basics well - great job |
| 14:27.33 | jasta | thanks |
| 14:27.55 | jasta | i'm actually using this in my main app now |
| 14:28.17 | zhobbs | it's a good demo because the docs lack so much |
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| 14:31.56 | rhett | nice demo jasta |
| 14:32.09 | rhett | hey, can someone explain to me what this 8 hex character color thing is? |
| 14:32.22 | zhobbs | AARRGGBB |
| 14:32.27 | rhett | alpha? |
| 14:32.29 | zhobbs | Alpha Red Green Blue |
| 14:32.29 | rhett | for transparancy? |
| 14:32.46 | zhobbs | yeah, FF is solid, 00 means transparent |
| 14:32.51 | rhett | thanks |
| 14:34.28 | muthu | i'll test the lifecycle now |
| 14:34.32 | muthu | jasta: btw your xml dump is still in binary :( |
| 14:38.00 | mypapit | :( |
| 14:38.19 | zhobbs | muthu: what's binary? |
| 14:39.34 | muthu | zhobss: jasta reverse engineered the xml files |
| 14:39.44 | zhobbs | yeah, I saw that |
| 14:40.01 | muthu | i thought it was in xml format |
| 14:40.31 | muthu | may be a few of them did not get converted |
| 14:40.57 | zhobbs | Oh, I think he said a couple don't convert maybe..but all the ones I've looked at have converted to xml |
| 14:41.37 | muthu | ok.. i was checking out the expandable list items.. |
| 14:42.32 | muthu | time for dinner :) |
| 14:44.03 | jasta | those convert. check out my dump of all of them tho. |
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| 15:00.42 | jasta | hi morrildl |
| 15:01.57 | morrildl | morning, jasta |
| 15:03.14 | jasta | i discovered a quite serious bug over the weekend. i was wondering if maybe you could have an engineer spy it for me? :) |
| 15:05.20 | jasta | http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=501&can=1&q=reporter:jasta00&colspec=ID%20Type%20Version%20Security%20Status%20Owner%20Summary |
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| 15:17.29 | morrildl | jasta: interesting, a crash in JDWP on the device side |
| 15:17.42 | morrildl | jasta: thx for the report |
| 15:18.28 | jasta | yeah, it's very reproducible for me. |
| 15:18.40 | jasta | in one particular function in a jar exported from a library i wrote. |
| 15:18.52 | jasta | if i hide the local variables view in Eclipse, it won't crash. |
| 15:18.56 | jasta | as soon as I show it, kaboom :) |
| 15:19.08 | zhobbs | that's crazy |
| 15:19.24 | morrildl | zhobbs: not as crazy as you might think |
| 15:19.51 | jasta | it was especially irritating because i wasn't debugging that function for my health, ya know? :) |
| 15:19.55 | morrildl | the jdb integration works via an implemention JDWP of on both sides of the device |
| 15:20.10 | morrildl | like any code, the JDWP implementation can have bugs :) |
| 15:20.29 | morrildl | since it isn't running Java on the "inside" there's a certain amount of grey-area translation going on |
| 15:21.12 | jasta | also, there's a nasty memory leak in Base64Utils.decodeBase64 |
| 15:21.15 | jasta | i posted another bug about that :) |
| 15:21.17 | morrildl | hahahahaha |
| 15:21.24 | morrildl | yeah we know that one, I believe |
| 15:21.38 | morrildl | the current source tree has 3 different implementations of base64 |
| 15:21.43 | jasta | i noticed that. |
| 15:21.46 | morrildl | one of the things we are doing is tidying that up :) |
| 15:21.49 | jasta | so, i added my own |
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| 16:06.44 | zhobbs | my PhoneFinder app idea was stolen (and improved upon a LOT): http://lostandroid.com |
| 16:06.59 | zhobbs | looks like a nice web interface |
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| 16:11.14 | muthu | great app |
| 16:11.29 | zhobbs | yeah |
| 16:11.43 | zhobbs | privacy concerns...but cool |
| 16:11.57 | muthu | phone finder..friend finder.. finders!! |
| 16:12.24 | muthu | i need a laptop finder |
| 16:12.29 | zhobbs | yea |
| 16:12.45 | davidw | needs a money finder |
| 16:12.50 | muthu | lol |
| 16:13.27 | muthu | finders on your mobile will be the next google |
| 16:13.55 | jasta | zhobbs: have i told you about my idea for a "secret" contacts app? |
| 16:14.08 | zhobbs | yeah you did |
| 16:14.23 | zhobbs | it's a great idea, just don't let your better half know :) |
| 16:14.27 | muthu | everyone is anticipation jasta |
| 16:14.37 | muthu | orders are filling up ;) |
| 16:15.46 | jasta | i thought about selling that type of app at first actually. i was originally going to write it for Windows Mobile and I figured the sorts of people who would want it are duncey salesmen who would pay BIG for something like that :) |
| 16:16.13 | jasta | but then i realized i'd have to come up with creative billing like Playboy and Penthouse so as not to put a line on their credit card statement saying "SECRET CHEAT ON YOUR WIFE CONTACT APP PRO!" :) |
| 16:16.14 | muthu | anything "secret" is a great business idea |
| 16:16.47 | muthu | if you can guarantee privacy, it would sell |
| 16:16.59 | zhobbs | yeah there are probably some business men out there that will pay big bucks to keep their secrets |
| 16:17.07 | jasta | and then Android came along, and my philanthropic side took over. I'll release it for free for the good, or perhaps detriment of, mankind. |
| 16:17.25 | muthu | it would be a great hit |
| 16:17.34 | muthu | but you need to hide your app |
| 16:17.42 | muthu | it should be in stealth mode |
| 16:17.53 | jasta | of course, i had thought i would have it password protected by a gesture on the home screen |
| 16:18.06 | zhobbs | don't let oprah hear about it, she'll give the details on how to check a phone for it |
| 16:18.17 | jasta | something slightly awkward even, like maybe start by holding down two awkward buttons, pressing in an area of the screen etc. |
| 16:18.32 | muthu | it would be really hard to do keep your app a secret |
| 16:18.32 | jasta | and i'll have the sequence randomly generated uniquely for each app install |
| 16:18.39 | zhobbs | disguise it as a calculator |
| 16:18.45 | muthu | lol |
| 16:18.55 | zhobbs | put in a certain combination of calculations to access :) |
| 16:19.00 | jasta | speaking of which |
| 16:19.14 | muthu | zhobbs: good idea |
| 16:19.21 | muthu | integrate with the existing apps |
| 16:19.24 | zhobbs | set your password as 3+3*pi/4 or whatever |
| 16:19.25 | jasta | my high school girlfriend sent me a text message yesterday to say "Happy Easter". "Happy Easter"? Wtf, yeah right. |
| 16:19.55 | muthu | jasta: she likes you |
| 16:20.12 | jasta | well i know, she's the reason i thought of this stupid app :) |
| 16:20.29 | muthu | ha ha |
| 16:21.13 | jasta | she's crazy though, i'm not down. |
| 16:21.35 | jasta | the problem is, though, i can't really bring myself to block her number, but i won't put her number in my phone because my gf will see it |
| 16:21.49 | jasta | so she just occassionally sends me messages or calls, and i have no good policy to deal with it |
| 16:22.00 | muthu | that's a real problem |
| 16:22.20 | jasta | and it's not frequent enough that i'm really pissed about it or anything |
| 16:22.32 | jasta | but i feel like i should have come up with some bullet-proof scheme for handling these events. |
| 16:22.37 | jasta | that's where the idea came from |
| 16:22.51 | muthu | nice.. real solutions for real problems |
| 16:22.57 | jasta | being able to actively ignore them, while still being able to track the events is perfect :) |
| 16:23.10 | jasta | it satisfies my curiousity, while simultaneously keeping me out of trouble. perfect. |
| 16:23.48 | muthu | perfect indeed. |
| 16:24.20 | muthu | you know what.. its a global problem. |
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| 16:27.18 | muthu | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:27.38 | zhobbs | muthu: space bar stuck? |
| 16:27.44 | muthu | yeah |
| 16:28.06 | muthu | my daughter broke it yesterday |
| 16:28.20 | davidw | your girlfriend looks through your contacts? |
| 16:28.29 | muthu | now its stuck |
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| 17:44.42 | jasta | chomchom: *poke* |
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| 17:57.45 | rhett | http://pastebin.ca/955467 |
| 17:57.53 | rhett | why do I have to specify the type for dp? |
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| 18:01.07 | jasta | rhett: Because findViewById returns a View. Java has strong type safety, and as such will require an explicit cast when you are attempting to break it down. |
| 18:02.14 | rhett | i see jasta , thanks I should really investigate these things more myself |
| 18:04.32 | mihoshi | What is most simple method of reading XML in android? |
| 18:05.38 | jasta | rhett: The cast has the useful side-effect of throwing a runtime exception if the type is not what you expect it to be. |
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| 18:26.33 | d3d | hi #android |
| 18:28.14 | B0jangles | hi |
| 18:29.02 | d3d | how's trix |
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| 18:32.09 | jasta | rhett: i strongly recommend taht you at least gather a basic appreciation for Java before you start trying to write Android code. |
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| 18:32.52 | jasta | there are enough gotchas in Android specifically that you will likely be unable to write correct code by just "faking it" |
| 18:33.42 | d3d | i realize many entries will come at the last minute, but is there any indication of how many entries there will be for the android contest ? |
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| 18:34.11 | B0jangles | something tells me they're not sharing that information... |
| 18:34.32 | d3d | i guess there are no friendly googlers here then ;) |
| 18:34.46 | B0jangles | plenty of friendly googlers |
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| 18:35.02 | B0jangles | doesn't mean they can share private company info |
| 18:35.08 | d3d | i understand. |
| 18:35.14 | Lede | d3d: on the blog there was a poll and about 400 or something was the result |
| 18:35.23 | Lede | iirc |
| 18:36.01 | d3d | Lede, i did see that, though i remember it being lower.. |
| 18:36.09 | Lede | or lower |
| 18:36.22 | Lede | i have the memory of a car tire |
| 18:37.04 | d3d | as usual for me i've decided to jump in with an entry at the last second.. working with a doctor - researcher friend in the health area, something strongly wiki-oriented |
| 18:37.09 | B0jangles | dammit, my app stores data in a car tire! |
| 18:38.00 | B0jangles | so much for CarTire.java |
| 18:38.36 | Lede | D: |
| 18:39.31 | d3d | i hope you aren't one of the googlers ;) |
| 18:39.40 | B0jangles | me? no |
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| 18:40.05 | Lede | when i get older i will work at google as toilet cleaner |
| 18:40.20 | B0jangles | like the little blue bricks you drop into the tank? |
| 18:40.37 | d3d | oh no, he's been automated out of a job already |
| 18:40.39 | Lede | stuff like that |
| 18:41.09 | B0jangles | d3d: lol |
| 18:41.24 | B0jangles | I have a friend who coded a coworker out of a job |
| 18:41.28 | d3d | well, it's probably more environmently friendly to use a person |
| 18:41.29 | B0jangles | they didn't get along |
| 18:41.37 | B0jangles | d3d: probably |
| 18:41.45 | Lede | i'm organic |
| 18:41.56 | Lede | flexes arms |
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| 18:47.41 | jasta | i've coded two people out of jobs, actually. |
| 18:47.51 | jasta | with direction from management to do so |
| 18:47.56 | B0jangles | lol |
| 18:48.23 | B0jangles | I don't think I've ever done it... |
| 18:48.28 | B0jangles | not directly, anyway |
| 18:48.40 | jasta | actually, the tool that did it was sold to other reps in the US as well, so it may have lost a much larger number of people their jobs |
| 18:48.50 | B0jangles | ;-( |
| 18:49.46 | jasta | people here used to manually go through these huge lists of engineering drawings and diagrams and simply mark them, highlighting the fixture information and putting a little box in the corner stating job information and stuff. |
| 18:50.17 | jasta | so the first version of my tool did that job, causing one perosn to get let go. |
| 18:50.36 | B0jangles | It's always amazing how many things companies do manually that could easily be replaced with code |
| 18:50.47 | jasta | then the second version went out to the Internet and actually collected the drawings, which let the other person go. |
| 18:51.17 | B0jangles | heh |
| 18:51.19 | jasta | most of our manufacturers have very well written public web sites which worked great with google search for their part numbers and site:whoevercompany.com |
| 18:51.22 | jasta | and filetype:pdf |
| 18:51.49 | jasta | most jobs we do have 600+ drawings, and the tool automatically downloads at least 80%. |
| 18:51.58 | d3d | does anyone know if it's practical to embed a local http server in an android vm |
| 18:52.19 | B0jangles | what for? |
| 18:52.27 | jasta | my job here is basically automation monkey. i turn stupid jobs into easy jobs, thus allowing departments to handle inreased work loads without hiring extra bodies. |
| 18:52.32 | d3d | everyone asks that.. so the app can be web based as much as possible |
| 18:53.19 | B0jangles | So you want to write a webserver in Java? |
| 18:53.23 | jasta | d3d: that is sort of ridiculous, don't you think? |
| 18:53.49 | d3d | sure, but i like the explore the ridiculous. i know you can set up a "webserver" in very few lines of code in jdk 1.6 |
| 18:53.50 | jasta | if you really want that arrangement, however, Google Gears is what you're looking for. |
| 18:54.21 | jasta | though it currently doesn't work on Android, i think you'd be crazy to think it's not coming. |
| 18:54.37 | jasta | considering google released gears fro windows mobile |
| 18:55.03 | d3d | i'm thinking partially of offline work, balancing redeveloping an app layer vs carrying over the web layer (using html as an interface) |
| 18:56.01 | d3d | but probably google would prefer any project to use their widgets |
| 18:56.17 | B0jangles | i would imagine |
| 18:56.56 | haavi | or perhaps their SDK |
| 18:57.12 | jasta | well that is precisely what gears is for. your app can be entirely web-based and abstract, but at the same time not stupid and slow :) |
| 18:57.35 | jasta | though i still think web-based apps are absolutely the wrong approach for mobile devices. |
| 18:57.42 | haavi | ya |
| 18:57.53 | d3d | jasta, i agree, except what i have in mind should be web accessible as well |
| 18:58.00 | jasta | they satisfy 1 goal, portability, but unfortunately none others. |
| 18:58.27 | jasta | d3d: then it would be appropriate to design an abstract framework which you can attach to from multiple types of clients. |
| 18:58.45 | d3d | jasta, yes, that's my plan |
| 18:59.05 | jasta | rather than using a framework which is inherently that, but unfortunately also inherently very inefficient. |
| 18:59.52 | mihoshi | Where can I download up-to date documentation for Android? One with last SDK has huge holes |
| 18:59.57 | d3d | i think modern web apps can be quite responsive with sophisticated controls, but trying to do all that in an android app would be asking too much |
| 19:00.22 | B0jangles | I just use the documentation online |
| 19:00.33 | B0jangles | not that it's hole-free, though |
| 19:00.35 | d3d | however my app would require using an html renderer, which i hope is straightforward.. it doesn't really make sense to redevelop a rich text display |
| 19:02.34 | Lede | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:02.51 | Lede | i think about 500 |
| 19:02.54 | Lede | D: |
| 19:03.24 | d3d | hopefully |
| 19:03.27 | B0jangles | I'd been thinking of writing a personal wiki...Im glad I decided not to. |
| 19:03.38 | B0jangles | since they wrote one already ;-) |
| 19:03.50 | d3d | using WikiWords ... ugh |
| 19:04.08 | B0jangles | Yeah, CamelCaseIsAStupidWayToMakeAWiki |
| 19:04.15 | d3d | though since it's just regexes, i suppose it could use [[What ever]] |
| 19:04.17 | jasta | you people are thinking too small :) |
| 19:04.24 | mihoshi | I need an html renderer and script engine for my app badly :/ |
| 19:04.38 | B0jangles | jasta: why do you say that |
| 19:04.46 | d3d | does android support rhino or another js engine |
| 19:05.50 | mihoshi | No |
| 19:05.51 | mihoshi | It has some js inside WebKit, but doesn;t show it to anyone |
| 19:06.08 | d3d | that's too bad :( this really is ground floor |
| 19:06.20 | jasta | mihoshi: doesn't show it? |
| 19:06.42 | mihoshi | Yes, doesn't provide any real java interface to it |
| 19:06.52 | jasta | B0jangles: well, i mean for the ADC. a gimmicky program you could whip up in a week is extremely unlikely to win. |
| 19:07.06 | jasta | mihoshi: Oh, yes. |
| 19:07.17 | B0jangles | jasta: well, I did say I decided *not* to do that... |
| 19:07.26 | jasta | but even if you had, it wouldn't win :) |
| 19:07.30 | d3d | that's pretty much my idea, with some twists ;) |
| 19:08.01 | B0jangles | jasta: well, yeah, especially since Google already wrote one. Regardless, my entry has nothing to do with wikis... |
| 19:08.18 | d3d | however, i plan to use the phrase "web 2.0" a lot |
| 19:08.24 | B0jangles | d3d: ugh |
| 19:08.28 | mihoshi | Well, everything what I have seen so far is not that much creative... |
| 19:08.32 | B0jangles | jasta: though, I do love personal wikis |
| 19:09.15 | jasta | mihoshi: My guess is most people are not sharing publicly their ideas, and certainly not their implementations. |
| 19:09.57 | d3d | google should use more of a collaborative building blocks approach |
| 19:10.12 | jasta | i have not been safe-guarding my idea, mostly because i think it's "devil in the details". |
| 19:10.30 | jasta | but im sure that's a bit uncommon among participants. |
| 19:10.45 | B0jangles | I've just been copying all of jasta's code... |
| 19:10.49 | B0jangles | j/k |
| 19:10.52 | d3d | jasta, so where's your project description ... |
| 19:11.20 | jasta | still, my project is currently at 13K loc, several separate components, and i'd say i'm half done with my final goal. |
| 19:11.32 | jasta | d3d: nowhere, i merely explain it freely. |
| 19:12.09 | B0jangles | Am I the only one who's found that development is taking way longer than expected? |
| 19:12.24 | B0jangles | maybe I'm just slow |
| 19:12.34 | jasta | B0jangles: I knew going into it that my project was going to be an enormous amount of work, so I can't say that I feel like I'm behind schedule. |
| 19:12.46 | jasta | I started late Dec, and have been working about 2 - 3 hours per day on average. |
| 19:13.03 | d3d | wow, that is a lot of work |
| 19:13.06 | jasta | and like i said, about half way done with my core set of goals. there will be much work to be done after that, of course. |
| 19:13.31 | jasta | tuning, bug fixes, optimizations, etc. also, i plan to develop a component entirely separate from Android after the challenge. |
| 19:14.02 | jasta | my project is a system which sensibly lets you access your home media collection (music is my primary focus, though it can be extended). |
| 19:14.07 | mihoshi | What are you going to submit at April 14th? |
| 19:15.10 | d3d | based on standard protocols that could be a shoe in |
| 19:15.14 | jasta | more of a prototype, which works, but doesn't have many of my secondary, optional goals. |
| 19:15.25 | jasta | d3d: it is based on standard protocols, i use SyncML and HTTP. |
| 19:15.37 | jasta | and while you believe it is a shoe-in, you are thinking much, much too small. |
| 19:16.30 | jasta | also, i have to implement the server component of course (which i have done) |
| 19:16.45 | jasta | and the android piece has to be really well optimized just to make it work at all (this is a lot of data we're talking about here) |
| 19:17.27 | jasta | for example, the server-side database for my personal collection is currently 28MB, that includes a small bit of last.fm meta data, artwork, etc. |
| 19:17.27 | mihoshi | I think, there is no much sense in heavy optimization until we get a eal devices |
| 19:17.49 | jasta | well, let's not call these optimizations: we'll call it sensible, efficient design from the start. |
| 19:17.59 | jasta | "hacking" it together would simply not work with this much data involved. |
| 19:18.34 | d3d | actually i was thinking more of mcx, wmc, etc |
| 19:18.43 | jasta | plus my system is not simply engineered to be a silly proof-of-concept. i have designed it with the intention of releasing as a usable framework, with the intention of extending it thoroughly. |
| 19:19.10 | d3d | dlna type stuffs |
| 19:19.10 | jasta | d3d: lol, are you serious? |
| 19:19.17 | d3d | yup |
| 19:19.55 | d3d | my n95 supports UPnP, why shouldn't a gphone |
| 19:20.18 | jasta | not only would that be extruciatingly limited, it would also be horribly slow and non-portable. |
| 19:20.37 | jasta | that design would be unworkably bad. |
| 19:21.10 | d3d | but if your highest level is syncml and http, it seems like you'd eventually end up reimplementing an existing standard |
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| 19:22.41 | jasta | yes, very probably, because no generalized protocol exists to do what i need, and you'd be insane to pick a Microsoft protocol as your basis to extend. |
| 19:23.28 | d3d | but upnp &c is not a microsoft protocol any more than usb is, it is adopted by sony, nokia, and open source projects like mytht |
| 19:23.30 | d3d | mythtv |
| 19:24.04 | jasta | UPnP does nothing to solve this problem. |
| 19:24.16 | Bonkers | which makes it quite intersting when all my mythtv recordings show up as audio tracks on my xbox 360 and of course none paly |
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| 19:25.20 | d3d | Bonkers, that's not surprising, it's in its infancy, though it'd be great if jasta's software would provide a solution ;) |
| 19:25.42 | jasta | Perhaps you grossly misunderstand the intention of my software. |
| 19:25.53 | jasta | UPnP is an entirely irrelevant technology. |
| 19:25.56 | d3d | quite likely ;) |
| 19:27.00 | jasta | UPnP is simply an abstraction of devices on a network, it does not help you provide a lot of meaningful dialog between those devices. That is the job of another technology. |
| 19:27.23 | d3d | so you wouldn't build your solution on top of upnp ? |
| 19:27.26 | jasta | And UPnP's definition of a network is generally limited to private networks, nothing like the public Internet, whcih my technology operates on. |
| 19:28.03 | jasta | To break it down to its basic components, you would run a server on your home computer, configure your phone to connect through your home Internet connection, and synchronize everything OTA. |
| 19:28.09 | d3d | it does seem to support NAT traversal.. but it's your thing, sounds like you have a handle on it |
| 19:28.21 | jasta | Specifically, separating meta data and structure from content so that certain data can transmit passively while the rest of it streams. |
| 19:29.04 | jasta | the server, in this case, would use UPnP only to poke a hole in your local firewall, if your router supports that. |
| 19:29.30 | d3d | well, i'm referring to upnp av, but it's just a buzzword i heard in passing that sounded similar to what you're talking about |
| 19:29.53 | jasta | Well it was quite inappropriate to suggest, trust me. |
| 19:30.00 | d3d | <blush> |
| 19:30.07 | jasta | So to was your WMX/WMC suggestion. In fact, that was downright absurd. |
| 19:30.16 | jasta | too* |
| 19:30.54 | jasta | Still, this is why I have no reservation sharing my idea publicly. The devil is in the details. It is hard to implement effectively with such limited resources. |
| 19:32.08 | jasta | One of the reasons that there's so little innovation in the mobile industry is because, quite frankly, it's hard work to write mobile apps well. They seem simpler because their feature set is well bound and the UI is small, but that actually makes things much, much harder. |
| 19:32.22 | d3d | no kidding.. well good luck, i hope it works out for everyone. i gotta run |
| 19:32.27 | davidw | good advice |
| 19:33.01 | jasta | advice? :) |
| 19:33.13 | jasta | was my advice "don't write mobile apps, it sucks?" :) |
| 19:33.55 | davidw | advice == what you wrote above... it makes sense. |
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| 19:53.13 | chomchom | jasta: *poke back* |
| 19:54.43 | chomchom | thats me just in, I lurk on irc while I'm at work in the hope to absorb all knowledge that may have flowed through the room in my absence. |
| 19:55.03 | chomchom | Is there anyone from the UK in here? |
| 19:56.12 | chomchom | If anyone from the UK is in here and would like to get together after the android submissions, I'd be up for it |
| 19:56.54 | chomchom | I'm going to put a note out on the mailing list. For the weekend after the submission date. |
| 19:58.07 | B0jangles | I'd go to a Chicago get-together, if anybody else is around here... |
| 19:58.23 | chomchom | Yeah, Hey google guys |
| 19:58.57 | chomchom | why not put out a some sort of note encouraging developers to come out from under their development rocks |
| 19:59.18 | chomchom | and show off their apps to the only people in the world who will actually appreciate them! |
| 19:59.55 | chomchom | I'd be willing to travel to London for a nice big get together. |
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| 20:03.47 | chomchom | If anyone is up for meeting this place would probably be a really good bet: http://java.meetup.com/170/calendar/7551349/ |
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| 20:44.56 | donomo | I organize a Portland, Or meeting http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/462126/ |
| 20:45.02 | donomo | thats a long ways from the UK though |
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| 20:46.27 | davidw | about as wet, though |
| 20:46.34 | donomo | :) |
| 20:47.16 | jasta | Portland sucks :) |
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| 20:49.31 | davidw | cool, I've been to that bar |
| 20:50.22 | davidw | I used to live on Locust Ave, in Ladd's addition |
| 20:51.16 | davidw | personally, Portland is too far north and too gray for me. I have always taken a scientific interest in the ability of people to survive, and indeed thrive, in points north of there |
| 20:52.33 | jasta | yayyy, minus the bear is coming to Seattle afterall :) |
| 20:52.43 | jasta | they scared me by announcing their Sprint tour, excluding Seattle dates :) |
| 20:58.34 | davidw | wtf is minus the bear? |
| 20:58.54 | davidw | oh, it's a band |
| 21:03.16 | jasta | a Seattle band :) |
| 21:03.32 | jasta | also, my favorite band. |
| 21:03.49 | davidw | wish I could go see the CPD.... Europe sucks for music |
| 21:03.58 | jasta | but i've seen them only once in concert, primariy because i didn't discover them until well into their musical career. |
| 21:04.22 | jasta | davidw: who's CPD? |
| 21:04.35 | davidw | Cherry Poppin' Daddies |
| 21:05.19 | zhobbs | are they still around? |
| 21:05.25 | jasta | lol, wow |
| 21:05.32 | davidw | yeah |
| 21:05.36 | davidw | new album is coming out: |
| 21:05.58 | davidw | http://www.daddies.com/ |
| 21:06.06 | jasta | a lot of my friends seem not to have outgrown their lame techno phase. |
| 21:06.53 | jasta | it's intolerable to ride in the car with them :) |
| 21:07.07 | davidw | never really been into techno, but ... de gustibus non est disputandum... |
| 21:09.02 | jasta | i used to like it, when i was 15 and tone-deaf. |
| 21:09.17 | benley | untz untz untz untz |
| 21:09.46 | jasta | i think actually just because i associated it with being a geek or something silly like that. |
| 21:10.16 | benley | ha, I saw the cherry poppin daddies play in Middle Of Nowhere, Illinois |
| 21:10.32 | B0jangles | Ooh! i used to live in MON, Illinoios |
| 21:10.38 | B0jangles | Bloomington, to be exact |
| 21:10.40 | jasta | you're kidding? |
| 21:10.59 | B0jangles | I did my undergrad at ISU |
| 21:11.03 | benley | B0jangles: hot damn. I saw them in Bloomington. Or maybe it was Normal. |
| 21:11.09 | benley | (it was on the illinois wesleyan campus) |
| 21:11.18 | B0jangles | benley: I think that's Normal |
| 21:11.33 | B0jangles | benley: same difference, though |
| 21:11.43 | B0jangles | benley: do you live in Illinois? |
| 21:11.50 | benley | nope, Boston |
| 21:11.54 | jasta | wow, that place really is the middle of nowhere |
| 21:12.01 | benley | went to schol in champaign-urbana though |
| 21:12.05 | B0jangles | benley: Ah, I was in Boston a few months ago |
| 21:12.16 | B0jangles | benley: UofI? |
| 21:12.19 | benley | yeah. |
| 21:12.36 | B0jangles | jasta: yeah, it's in the middle of a bunch of corn and soy fields |
| 21:12.47 | jasta | i looked it up on google maps and zoomed out, and out, and out, and out... |
| 21:12.50 | jasta | and then you see something :) |
| 21:12.54 | B0jangles | 2.5 hours from Chicago... |
| 21:13.10 | B0jangles | I live a bit North of Chicago now |
| 21:13.16 | B0jangles | It's much nicer |
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| 21:21.51 | jerkface03 | the gc is running nonstop in some portions of my applications |
| 21:22.08 | jerkface03 | to the point where it seemingly freezes up cause the gc is continually going |
| 21:23.45 | jasta | what are you doing in that portion of your application? |
| 21:23.56 | jasta | also is the heap growing? |
| 21:24.31 | jerkface03 | it's most likely my fault, i'm allocating/deallocating a lot of memory, so it might be getting excessivly fragmented |
| 21:24.41 | jerkface03 | jasta: how can i check the heapsize? |
| 21:24.48 | jerkface03 | err occupied heapsize |
| 21:25.11 | B0jangles | http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/ebb3a7fa37559cff |
| 21:25.51 | _avatar | jerkface03: if you're using eclipse you can use the DDMS view |
| 21:26.32 | jerkface03 | ya but what am i looking for specifically? |
| 21:27.02 | jerkface03 | k nm i see it |
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| 21:27.37 | jerkface03 | amount of heap used seems ot be generally staying at the same level |
| 21:27.48 | jerkface03 | 0.8-0.85MB |
| 21:32.11 | jasta | adb logcat will show you |
| 21:32.35 | jasta | how many objects are being collected by the gc? |
| 21:33.06 | jerkface03 | 19000? but theres no where in my code that i'm created THAT many objects every 4 seconds |
| 21:33.25 | jerkface03 | i avoid creating objects where i can |
| 21:33.36 | jerkface03 | this thing is running every 4 seconds |
| 21:35.35 | _avatar | 0.8-0.85B sounds awfully low for a heap size, my empty application appears to be taking ~1.5mb... do you have some other application/activity/service running that may be eating up a lot of memory? |
| 21:36.16 | jerkface03 | _avatar: negative. only this one app |
| 21:36.50 | jerkface03 | _avatar: INFO/dalvikvm-heap(786): GC old usage 50.0%; now 0.805MB used / 1.611MB soft max (2.062MB real max) |
| 21:36.54 | jerkface03 | 0.805 used |
| 21:37.44 | _avatar | hmm |
| 21:37.53 | jasta | jerkface03: use ddms to be sure you are looking at the right process. |
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| 23:53.37 | Zerone | n8 * |