| 00:00.16 | plusminus | Had a few emails with a guy from the "Google Communications Team" who passed my contact-data to "the person" from businessweek. He said "she" got an extended deadline and after that i never heard sth again from "her" :( |
| 00:00.38 | acsia | shame |
| 00:00.52 | plusminus | i was a bit pissed of ! |
| 00:00.59 | zhobbs | I talked to that lady from business week, she didn't quote me or anything though |
| 00:01.06 | plusminus | or.. let's say frustrated |
| 00:01.18 | plusminus | =D |
| 00:01.39 | plusminus | stayed up half night awaitign a call and nothing |
| 00:01.48 | zhobbs | doh |
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| 00:02.09 | plusminus | Germany and USA are 7-10 hours difference |
| 00:02.20 | plusminus | 1 am right now ^^ |
| 00:02.32 | acsia | I am in UK |
| 00:02.51 | acsia | I went to the android meetup in london last week |
| 00:02.59 | acsia | at google's quarters |
| 00:03.04 | plusminus | CodeDays ? |
| 00:03.07 | acsia | yes |
| 00:03.15 | acsia | but it wasn't |
| 00:03.22 | plusminus | ? |
| 00:03.31 | acsia | it was more of an introduction to the platform rather then looking into the code |
| 00:03.47 | acsia | most people had just installed the sdk and never played with it |
| 00:03.54 | acsia | so did not learn much |
| 00:04.10 | acsia | but the interesting bits was that most people came from companies like siemens |
| 00:04.45 | acsia | they porting their phones to android |
| 00:04.49 | plusminus | wasn't the London Code Days on 31 January ? |
| 00:05.00 | acsia | or at least they are getting interested |
| 00:05.28 | acsia | yes it was |
| 00:05.41 | plusminus | just though as you said "last week" |
| 00:06.10 | plusminus | kk |
| 00:06.10 | acsia | you know I work from home |
| 00:06.12 | acsia | and then I work some more on android from home |
| 00:06.22 | acsia | my social life reached a new low lately |
| 00:06.29 | plusminus | ^^ |
| 00:06.52 | acsia | forgetting the notion of time but yes it was the 31 |
| 00:07.13 | plusminus | had to learn for exams whole january and beginning of February.(ok I had a few tutorials ^^) |
| 00:07.27 | acsia | it s carl btw nicked charroch on your forum |
| 00:07.42 | acsia | I posted 1 or 2 notes |
| 00:07.57 | plusminus | I remember =) |
| 00:08.04 | plusminus | have you seen: |
| 00:08.05 | plusminus | http://www.anddev.org/andnav_-_android_map-routing-system-t740.html |
| 00:08.29 | acsia | let me check |
| 00:08.38 | acsia | btw they quoted anddev at the google meetup |
| 00:08.57 | plusminus | in London o_O |
| 00:09.36 | acsia | that looks great! |
| 00:09.50 | acsia | I have not played with the new sdk yet |
| 00:10.20 | acsia | I noticed a lat/long to real address function |
| 00:10.37 | plusminus | doesn't work :rolleyes: |
| 00:10.42 | plusminus | *feeling_a_bit_proud_being_mentioned_on_the_codedays* :D |
| 00:11.04 | acsia | ;) |
| 00:11.28 | acsia | well you deserve it - you are helping out a lot of people including me |
| 00:11.42 | plusminus | would love to do more ^^ |
| 00:11.47 | acsia | I wanted to create a very useless application |
| 00:11.52 | plusminus | btw issue on the new geocoding: |
| 00:11.53 | plusminus | http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/c14fa89fa1d3ffa1 |
| 00:13.25 | acsia | arf |
| 00:13.41 | acsia | there are some very annoying bugs |
| 00:13.51 | acsia | have you played with listviews a bit by any chance? |
| 00:14.17 | plusminus | not since the new sdk |
| 00:14.39 | plusminus | some developers reported of a bug with the selector which si drawn to big |
| 00:14.56 | acsia | I ve been trying in vain to add a separator to a cursor adapter depending on the 'goup by' statement given |
| 00:15.02 | zhobbs | Default selector def draws too large |
| 00:15.22 | plusminus | ^^ |
| 00:15.31 | acsia | for me is more of a customized listview with a separator |
| 00:16.04 | acsia | there are a function on top of adapter which is isSeparator (int) but I can not add a separator |
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| 00:16.31 | acsia | I tried getting the parent and played with it entire day but just gave up and came up with very ugly solution |
| 00:17.19 | plusminus | anyone knows if there is a problem with BOOT_COMPLETED action since new SDK (someone asked on anddev) and I'm too tired to change my old example to new sdk ;) |
| 00:18.55 | acsia | one should build a site that regroups components imo |
| 00:19.29 | plusminus | ? |
| 00:19.35 | acsia | for basic components like a camera, sms receiver etc... I have a couple of dialogs as well that could be used accross many applications |
| 00:19.57 | acsia | for instance I have one called LocationDialog |
| 00:20.21 | acsia | that let you choose your provider, check the return value is a correct location and return the location to a message |
| 00:20.40 | acsia | the locationprovider returns 0.0 at first - not sure if you noticed - when you boot up your phone |
| 00:20.42 | chomchom | yeah, I intend to speak about android at the Glasgow web centric meetup on wednesday |
| 00:20.49 | chomchom | quite looking forward to it |
| 00:21.00 | acsia | there is one tomorrow in london |
| 00:21.05 | acsia | I will probably go |
| 00:21.16 | acsia | not 100% sure I can make it yet |
| 00:21.20 | chomchom | is it an actual Android group? |
| 00:21.31 | acsia | let me get the link |
| 00:21.34 | chomchom | cheers |
| 00:21.42 | plusminus | acsiathe locationprovider returns 0.0 at first |
| 00:21.45 | plusminus | yes i recognized |
| 00:21.53 | plusminus | (strange behaviour9 |
| 00:22.01 | acsia | london android group on mettup |
| 00:22.03 | acsia | meetup |
| 00:22.07 | acsia | http://java.meetup.com/170/calendar/7240912/?gj=&a=nr1o_grp |
| 00:22.16 | plusminus | this is not an official thing, right ? |
| 00:22.19 | acsia | I think it is because of the mockdata that begins with 0.0 |
| 00:22.20 | acsia | no no |
| 00:22.28 | acsia | just somebody who set it up |
| 00:22.36 | chomchom | sweet, wish I could attend |
| 00:22.54 | acsia | but there is one guy from truphone on it so it could be interesting |
| 00:23.57 | acsia | a month ago, I spent a weekend trying to make an ASCII camera |
| 00:24.02 | acsia | haha |
| 00:24.13 | plusminus | London is just 1000km await, I'll take my private jet and visit you ;) |
| 00:24.23 | chomchom | I think I'll start one for Glasgow and then just tie it in with the other two loosley related meetups. |
| 00:25.28 | acsia | well, I have a laptop, a mobile phone with 3g payed by my company and a webcam |
| 00:25.46 | chomchom | If anyone in here is in Scotland there will be a meeting on Wednesday that some android developers will be at. You would be very welcome to drop by. |
| 00:25.52 | acsia | just broadcast from the pub |
| 00:26.15 | plusminus | you could. yes! that would be awesome |
| 00:26.30 | chomchom | Could do, tried it once before |
| 00:26.48 | chomchom | its pretty cool for most people but some people are too shy |
| 00:26.57 | chomchom | and its not really fair to impose on them |
| 00:27.29 | plusminus | you have at least one visitor ^^ |
| 00:27.32 | acsia | sure but after a couple of beers... |
| 00:28.10 | acsia | anyway I need some rest, nice to see some european activity on this channel... |
| 00:28.17 | acsia | ttyl |
| 00:28.22 | chomchom | bye |
| 00:28.43 | plusminus | :P just didn't know of this place until I received that mail today ^^ |
| 00:29.58 | jerkface03 | Anyone try passing their code thru a bytecode optimizer before converting it to dalvikvm runnable bytecode? |
| 00:30.30 | chomchom | plusminus: It's a good thing you found out then. It's good for morale when you see loads of others developing away everyday on the platform you take so much interest in. |
| 00:31.11 | chomchom | jerkface03: do you mean using jode or jad? |
| 00:31.35 | plusminus | yes, but it is 1:30 am now I'll get some sleep and contiue writing tomorrow. |
| 00:31.43 | plusminus | Definitely will be back here! |
| 00:31.48 | plusminus | cu guys |
| 00:31.55 | chomchom | night |
| 00:32.01 | jerkface03 | chomchom: i'm talking about using proguard? |
| 00:32.51 | chomchom | interesting, never seen that before |
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| 01:10.00 | zhobbs | with the touchscreen there is no way to really "select" an item in a ListView but not click it is there? |
| 01:10.35 | chomchom | no, it doesn't seem so. |
| 01:10.42 | chomchom | There is a long hold option though |
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| 02:23.06 | zhobbs | why do interfaces always auto-import as foo.bar$interface in eclipse...is there a setting? |
| 02:24.39 | chomchom | not sure preferences > then type 'template' into the search |
| 02:30.07 | chomchom | theres a special null check syntax in java 6, does anyone know it? |
| 02:31.56 | chomchom | maybe I'm thinking of ruby |
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| 02:44.11 | zhobbs | it's pretty weak that AlertDialog.Builder.addItems() only works with static arrays |
| 02:44.43 | zhobbs | cause the list dialog is kinda handy, but would like to use dynamic strings |
| 02:51.12 | zhobbs | there's no way to create a resource that could be used be a resource id right? |
| 02:58.42 | romainguy | er what? |
| 02:58.51 | zhobbs | hehe |
| 02:59.05 | romainguy | what do you call dynamic strings? |
| 02:59.56 | zhobbs | one that is not predefined in res/values or something |
| 03:00.16 | romainguy | what prevents you from doing that in AlertDialog.Builder? |
| 03:00.28 | zhobbs | AlertDialog.Builder.addItems() |
| 03:00.52 | romainguy | I see a setItems() |
| 03:00.53 | romainguy | public Builder setItems(CharSequence[] items, final OnClickListener listener) { |
| 03:01.07 | zhobbs | M6? :) |
| 03:01.12 | romainguy | ah possibly |
| 03:01.19 | zhobbs | http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/app/AlertDialog.Builder.html |
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| 03:02.06 | zhobbs | in case you missed it: http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/app/AlertDialog.Builder.html |
| 03:02.11 | romainguy_ | I guess you'll have to wait for the next SDK :) |
| 03:02.13 | romainguy_ | Yeah I saw it |
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| 03:02.22 | romainguy_ | Well, so the answer is: "it's fixed in the next SDK" |
| 03:02.22 | romainguy_ | :) |
| 03:03.59 | zhobbs | ok, already reported it at #293 |
| 03:04.05 | romainguy_ | let me close it them |
| 03:04.26 | chomchom | heh. Sneaky. |
| 03:05.40 | zhobbs | wonder if a bugfix sdk will be coming out in the next couple weeks... |
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| 03:06.28 | jerkface03 | romainguy_: you got any thoughts on my question about the obfuscator/optimizers? |
| 03:07.10 | romainguy_ | jerkface03: what question? |
| 03:10.51 | zhobbs | romainguy_: is it possible to make the selected item show in touch mode for a list view? |
| 03:11.29 | romainguy_ | no |
| 03:11.56 | jerkface03 | romainguy_: would using proguard or another bytecode obfuscator/optimizer prevent conversion of javabytecode to dalvikvm bytecode? |
| 03:12.25 | romainguy_ | jerkface03: I don't think so |
| 03:12.26 | jerkface03 | and all the optimizations be beneficial in dalvik (inlining, peep-hole optimizations, stack operation optimization, etc..) |
| 03:12.39 | romainguy_ | but you would have to prevent obfuscation of Activity, Views, etc. |
| 03:12.43 | jerkface03 | and would rather |
| 03:12.52 | romainguy_ | as for the optimizations I doubt you would gain much |
| 03:13.00 | jerkface03 | romainguy_: whys that? |
| 03:13.11 | romainguy_ | Dalvik is not a stack-based VM so it basically rewrite the code when it compiles to .dex |
| 03:13.28 | jerkface03 | well thats just 1 optimization technique out of many |
| 03:13.50 | romainguy_ | You can always try |
| 03:14.04 | jerkface03 | yep gonna give it a go when i get home tonight |
| 03:14.12 | jerkface03 | hopefuly i'll see some performance improvements in my project |
| 03:14.15 | romainguy_ | but there's no guarantee that the optimizations will survive the dex conversion, that's all |
| 03:14.45 | romainguy_ | I'd rather optimize my code than try to rely on such a tool |
| 03:14.50 | romainguy_ | but that's my personal take on it :) |
| 03:15.52 | jerkface03 | romainguy_: well, theres only so much i can do AND keep the code semi-readable at the same time |
| 03:15.57 | jerkface03 | you know what i mean? |
| 03:16.20 | jerkface03 | if i tried to manually inline everythign i could then i'd just end up with a bunch of spagetti code |
| 03:16.32 | romainguy_ | yes I do know what you mean :) |
| 03:16.49 | romainguy_ | I spent lots of time these past three months optimizing the layout/drawing/invalidate code paths in the UI toolkit |
| 03:16.58 | romainguy_ | and the code looks more like C code than Java code now ^^ |
| 03:17.10 | romainguy_ | but it was worth it |
| 03:17.31 | romainguy_ | unfortunately, we're coding for small devices with limited capacities and we have to sacrifice niceties on the code side |
| 03:17.47 | jerkface03 | i know i know ;) |
| 03:17.54 | jerkface03 | ok, back to work i go |
| 03:17.56 | jerkface03 | thanks |
| 03:18.03 | chomchom | We'll let you away with it since its a platform. |
| 03:19.02 | romainguy_ | chomchom: ? |
| 03:20.26 | chomchom | I'm not a fan of obfuscated java code in open source projects. I really don't enjoy working with people who right unreadable fast java code. |
| 03:20.43 | romainguy_ | I agree |
| 03:20.51 | romainguy_ | unfortunately rules are different for Android |
| 03:21.06 | romainguy_ | that said, we try to keep our code clean and readable (we have peer reviews for every change) |
| 03:21.28 | chomchom | The human factor contributes ten fold to the productivity where otherwise the processing may be sacrificed |
| 03:21.47 | chomchom | I understand the need with such a project definetly |
| 03:22.06 | romainguy_ | and note that I'm talking about only performance critical code paths :) |
| 03:22.17 | chomchom | I just hope those who create their projects on the platform choose where they make the same choices wisely. |
| 03:22.18 | romainguy_ | and they represent a tiny fraction of the whole source code |
| 03:23.12 | romainguy_ | but yeah, you probably don't want to have to fix a bug in ViewGroup.dispatchDraw() :)) |
| 03:23.40 | chomchom | Projects may be open, but the term 'open' should entail that it is easily interpreted. |
| 03:23.44 | chomchom | :) |
| 03:23.49 | romainguy_ | :)) |
| 03:24.03 | romainguy_ | well, overall I find the source base rather easy to navigate through |
| 03:24.14 | romainguy_ | but the framework does do some complicated things and try to do them fast |
| 03:24.34 | romainguy_ | for instance, ListView and GridView do a lot of work for the applications |
| 03:24.43 | romainguy_ | it's not the easiest classes to understand |
| 03:24.47 | romainguy_ | even though the code is pretty readable |
| 03:25.37 | chomchom | I hope we'll be seeing a few more interfaces in the future. There are an awful lot of methods exposed to subclasses. Makes it quite scary. |
| 03:26.35 | romainguy_ | we agree |
| 03:26.42 | romainguy_ | unfortunately interfaces are expensive :( |
| 03:27.02 | chomchom | Ah is that why? |
| 03:27.10 | chomchom | never knew that. |
| 03:27.19 | romainguy_ | calling an interface method is a lot more expensive than calling a regular method |
| 03:27.28 | romainguy_ | because there are extra checks involved |
| 03:27.50 | zhobbs | I can't figure out how to set the text color in a ProgressDialog, it's black for some reason...(Activity that launches it has black text) |
| 03:28.01 | romainguy_ | and while it's fine in most cases, it adds up pretty quickly in the critical code paths of the UI framework where we call some methods thousands and thousands of times |
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| 03:29.03 | romainguy_ | chomchom: I can give you an example of an optimization I did not so long ago |
| 03:29.13 | romainguy_ | ViewGroup used to keep its children in a ArrayList<View> |
| 03:29.18 | romainguy_ | which makes perfect sense right? |
| 03:29.29 | chomchom | yup |
| 03:29.33 | chomchom | semantically |
| 03:29.45 | romainguy_ | well using ArrayList<View> implied two things: |
| 03:29.49 | romainguy_ | - lots of method calls to get() |
| 03:29.58 | romainguy_ | - lots of casts due to the generics usage |
| 03:30.08 | romainguy_ | Now ViewGroup uses a simple View[] array |
| 03:30.20 | romainguy_ | that means ViewGroup has to handle the growing of the array itself |
| 03:30.44 | romainguy_ | *but* this changed removed thousands of methods calls in the UI toolkit |
| 03:30.45 | chomchom | Ah, that will be why there is quite a lot of vanilla Array data available. |
| 03:30.59 | romainguy_ | which resulted, in the case of an animated list scrolling, in a few more frames per second on real hardware |
| 03:31.29 | romainguy_ | so we are constantly struggling between having clean APIs and implementations and going fast |
| 03:31.31 | romainguy_ | and it |
| 03:31.37 | romainguy_ | and it's not that easy :) |
| 03:31.55 | romainguy_ | (it's also why Animation is now a class and not an interface, it made it just a tad faster but it paid off) |
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| 04:08.17 | chomchom | Hooray my project has came on leaps and bounds, its now 4am and I'm working in at 9. The 'zone' is an unforgiving place. |
| 04:08.33 | romainguy___ | ^^ |
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| 06:59.41 | jasta | Don't worry about people stealing an idea. If it's original, you will have to ram it down their throats. - Howard Aiken |
| 06:59.44 | jasta | hehe |
| 07:00.07 | jasta | applicable to all those idiots pretending trying to hide their ADC projects from the world ;) |
| 07:00.15 | jasta | s/pretending // |
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| 07:58.49 | jerkface03 | don't call me an idiot :( |
| 07:59.18 | romainguy___ | jerkface03: jasta likes to think highly of himself ;-) |
| 07:59.25 | jerkface03 | lol |
| 08:18.44 | muthu | here's an idea: |
| 08:18.56 | muthu | dating on your mobile |
| 08:19.11 | jerkface03 | i use to work for a company that did that ;x |
| 08:19.36 | jerkface03 | they're very profitable |
| 08:20.09 | muthu | yeah.. agree |
| 08:20.44 | muthu | hope google likes it |
| 08:21.04 | muthu | and i'm sure there will be like a million submissions on this one |
| 08:21.37 | muthu | shopping, dating and trading |
| 08:21.47 | muthu | this is what i keep hearing in the androidsphere |
| 08:24.11 | jerkface03 | ? |
| 08:24.14 | jerkface03 | androidsphere? |
| 08:24.54 | muthu | that's my word |
| 08:25.04 | muthu | for everything related to android |
| 08:26.04 | muthu | jerk: is that company still exists? |
| 08:27.24 | jerkface03 | yep |
| 08:27.40 | jerkface03 | http://www.airg.com/ |
| 08:27.56 | muthu | thx..i'll check it out |
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| 08:39.45 | davidw | everything is a sphere these days... I guess it started with 'blogosphere', which is a wretched word |
| 08:40.23 | jerkface03 | wasn't that a word conjured up by cnn? |
| 08:46.31 | muthu | how about 'planetandroid' ? |
| 09:08.05 | plusminus | *DANCE* |
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| 09:28.39 | davidw | java.io.FileNotFoundException: Database at /mismatched_uid/settings_10006/fs_10007/databases/webview.db could not be created |
| 09:28.41 | davidw | that's odd |
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| 09:54.09 | davidw | damnit |
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| 13:25.46 | mykhal | hi, I wonder if the previous (and much nicer) UI is included in the new SDK release and where are settings to restore it |
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| 14:24.01 | plusminus | hey guys, can on start the Maps-Activity with >Driving Directions< from A to B just with an Intent ? |
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| 15:34.51 | plusminus | ping? |
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| 15:35.29 | cybereagle | zomg, an update! |
| 15:35.57 | cybereagle | figures they'd release it while i was busy at a conference |
| 15:35.57 | cybereagle | lol |
| 15:36.16 | plusminus | sdk ? |
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| 15:37.53 | mykhal | you mean that 5 days old update ? |
| 15:38.44 | cybereagle | yeah, i been away though so i only just caught it |
| 15:38.57 | mykhal | so expect tne new and ugly gui :) |
| 15:39.07 | mykhal | I want the old one back ! |
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| 15:49.49 | plusminus | changes were made for touch reasons .... |
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| 16:31.35 | jasta | sigh, work |
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| 17:12.33 | davidw | oh this is interesting |
| 17:12.40 | davidw | what's with the j2me stuff in the .jar |
| 17:12.52 | Stephmw | which jar? |
| 17:16.49 | davidw | android.jar |
| 17:18.14 | davidw | err...eh? wait |
| 17:19.07 | Stephmw | (the secret is out... all along, the Android VM, the kernel image and drivers were all written in MIDP1.0) |
| 17:19.11 | davidw | oh duh |
| 17:19.16 | davidw | it's all the opengl stuff |
| 17:19.23 | davidw | it just drags along a few things it needs |
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| 17:42.41 | chadkouse | zhobbs: How's it going ? |
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| 18:01.15 | jasta | yawn |
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| 18:57.42 | plusminus | cya |
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| 20:02.49 | f00f- | ah we saw plusminus here :) |
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| 20:57.13 | jasta | f00f-: is he special? |
| 20:59.42 | davidw | jasta, he's like an electron at rest in that he equals 0 |
| 21:02.09 | jasta | i genuinely don't know how to interpret that analogy. |
| 21:02.24 | jasta | does that mean he's not special, because he has equal mass to all others? :) |
| 21:05.47 | davidw | I have no idea |
| 21:07.28 | jasta | you said it. |
| 21:07.47 | f00f- | jasta: he's the anddev.org guy |
| 21:07.49 | f00f- | so yeah |
| 21:07.57 | jasta | what's anddev.org? |
| 21:08.08 | jasta | oh hehe, that thing? oh jeez. |
| 21:08.15 | f00f- | very helpful forums |
| 21:08.17 | f00f- | for newbs and clewbs alike |
| 21:08.21 | f00f- | and myself :) |
| 21:08.48 | jasta | i hate that drop shadow effect |
| 21:11.03 | davidw | why not just use the google group? |
| 21:12.26 | jasta | f00f-: i don't generally regard those tutorials as special, but i suppose it is nice that they exist for everyone else. |
| 21:13.27 | jasta | the bits of android I like to see discussed are the things that are particularly non-trivial. things like the XML layouts and drawables, since they really are so poorly documented by Google. |
| 21:16.52 | zhobbs | xml drawables are not documented at all :( |
| 21:25.48 | f00f- | yeha their documentations absolutely sucks |
| 21:26.20 | f00f- | because the google group isn't a community feeling |
| 21:26.50 | davidw | I think the docs are ok myself |
| 21:27.20 | davidw | I think there is a big disconnect between people coming into Android expecting a polished commercial product, and those of us used to open source stuff, which usually has way less in terms of docs |
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| 21:29.12 | f00f- | yea |
| 21:29.20 | f00f- | but expectations++ when it comes from google |
| 21:29.25 | f00f- | we want it to be pre-polished |
| 21:29.29 | Stephmw | davidw: up to a point I'd agree |
| 21:29.29 | donomo | in the emulator's browser im going to http://localhost with 'netcat -l -p 80' running locally but the browser says no connection. any ideas? |
| 21:29.31 | f00f- | but as we all know it's not there yet |
| 21:29.56 | zhobbs | donomo: you trying to connect to your PC or to emulator? |
| 21:29.57 | f00f- | donomo: what is the EXACT ERROR given by the browser |
| 21:30.07 | davidw | I think it's far likelier to get to a 'there' that more people like by having it at least semi-open as it is now |
| 21:30.08 | donomo | zhobbs: yes, curl http://localhost works fine |
| 21:30.13 | davidw | not even google is omniscient |
| 21:30.16 | davidw | ...yet... |
| 21:30.17 | zhobbs | donomo: on your pc? |
| 21:30.35 | donomo | f00f-: 'Network error Failed to connect to server' |
| 21:30.38 | donomo | zhobbs: ? |
| 21:30.45 | f00f- | so you can telnet to localhost on 80 |
| 21:30.47 | f00f- | try 127.0.0.1 |
| 21:30.50 | zhobbs | donomo: localhost on the emulator refers to the emulator's system, not the PC...you need to use your PC's IP address |
| 21:30.53 | f00f- | might be thinking ipv6 (::1) |
| 21:30.57 | donomo | f00f-: donomo> zhobbs: yes, curl http://localhost works fine |
| 21:31.02 | f00f- | in the browser |
| 21:31.14 | donomo | zhobbs: oh i think i see |
| 21:31.38 | zhobbs | yeah, use 192.168.1.x or however your network is setup |
| 21:32.01 | f00f- | netcat should listen on all interfaces |
| 21:32.08 | f00f- | so it shoulnd't matter |
| 21:32.10 | donomo | zhobbs: that did it, thx. |
| 21:32.12 | davidw | no google guys today....hrm. Maybe there off watching the bike race |
| 21:32.21 | f00f- | they got the day off |
| 21:32.23 | f00f- | unlike the rest of us |
| 21:32.38 | donomo | im using my day off to play with android |
| 21:33.12 | f00f- | rubbing it in real good :) |
| 21:33.22 | zhobbs | for the next couple months playing with android is my job |
| 21:33.32 | donomo | zhobbs: nice |
| 21:33.41 | donomo | im loving the new UI |
| 21:33.44 | donomo | pretty buttons |
| 21:33.51 | davidw | oh... it's president's day |
| 21:34.00 | f00f- | yeah, although all the widgets are too big now imho |
| 21:37.42 | romainguy___ | f00f-: they got the day off << yep no work for us ^^ |
| 21:37.51 | romainguy___ | f00f-: they're not too big on a real device, trust me |
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| 21:39.11 | f00f- | haha, no cafeteria food for you guys then :) |
| 21:40.39 | romainguy___ | unfortunately :) |
| 21:45.37 | davidw | romainguy, looked a the gtakl stuff at all? E/Notification( 539): This constructor doesn't work correctly anymore |
| 21:45.45 | davidw | E/Notification( 539): at android.app.Notification.<init>(Notification.java:172) |
| 21:46.06 | davidw | btw, nice picture for the m5 screen:-) |
| 21:50.43 | romainguy___ | thanks :) |
| 21:50.53 | romainguy___ | As for Gtalk I never used the API |
| 21:51.05 | romainguy___ | but android.app.Notification has nothing to do with Gtalk?! |
| 21:55.32 | davidw | romainguy, well... http://code.google.com/android/reference/com/google/android/gtalkservice/IChatSession.html#addRemoteChatListener(com.google.android.gtalkservice.IChatListener) |
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| 22:21.35 | jasta | romainguy___: Speaking of GTalk, I am lost at what Google's masterplan is with this protocol. |
| 22:21.53 | jasta | Are tehy intending to use GTalk/XMPP to replace the need for SMS for service implementations / device alerts? |
| 22:22.09 | jasta | So that we can say a big "fuck you" to wireless carriers? |
| 22:22.38 | romainguy___ | I have no idea |
| 22:22.40 | jasta | Or is this just a simple novelty to implement boring games? |
| 22:22.54 | romainguy___ | but I don't see why both couldn't coexist |
| 22:23.05 | Stephmw | operators aren't keen on IM-style services |
| 22:23.10 | Stephmw | some actively block them |
| 22:23.35 | Stephmw | not to mention that if you're paying by the kb... any IM is going to cost more than SMS |
| 22:23.44 | jasta | I'm not talking about IM-style service.s |
| 22:24.17 | Stephmw | yeah, I know but it uses the same infrastructure really |
| 22:24.29 | jasta | romainguy___: The former is only possible if Google organizes it as such. |
| 22:24.49 | jasta | For example, GTalk would need to be built-in to the handset UI as a central feature for all applications to depend upon. |
| 22:24.55 | jasta | Central configuration, "always-on" connection, etc. |
| 22:25.06 | romainguy___ | well right now GTalk is not in the android.* packages |
| 22:25.08 | romainguy___ | so... |
| 22:25.38 | jasta | Right, I understand that. But it seems to be that Google might be sitting on a great idea here that will go nowhere if someone doesn't realize a greater vision. |
| 22:26.56 | jasta | GTalk can be a stupid gimmick to implements games, or it can be a way to derail SMS as a means of machine-to-machine communication. |
| 22:28.00 | davidw | jasta, even if that's their 'Cunning Plan' - they're not going to announce it on IRC |
| 22:28.16 | jasta | SMS has a few technical hurdles, of course, but the biggest hurdle is the insane premiums imposed by the carriers. |
| 22:28.16 | davidw | SMS == big bucks |
| 22:29.01 | davidw | Stephmw, IM costs more than SMS? hrm.... actually the rise of IM services seems to indicate that in many cases that's not entirely true |
| 22:29.58 | Stephmw | davidw: regionally? until recently O2 in the uk charged £0.20/100KB |
| 22:30.14 | davidw | and how much did it charge per SMS? |
| 22:30.29 | jasta | davidw: Perhaps I can influence their "cunning plan" by asking about it? :) |
| 22:30.47 | Stephmw | less, obviously - the issue with IM is that most IM services carry a hefty overhead in traffic |
| 22:30.49 | davidw | jasta, I think that one's obvious enough that they've already made their decisions |
| 22:31.02 | Stephmw | I'm not saying that 1xIM > 1xSMS ;) |
| 22:31.44 | jasta | Stephmw: Android clearly isn't interested in markets that have outrageous data tariffs ;) |
| 22:34.35 | jasta | My ADC project would literally cost you a fortune to use at even 5c/100KB. |
| 22:35.21 | jasta | This reminds me of the time I was snowed in at my girlfriend's house with my brand new laptop and no Internet connection. |
| 22:35.35 | jerkface03 | 5c/100kb? sounds like a dream |
| 22:35.39 | jerkface03 | its 5c/kb here |
| 22:35.42 | jasta | I hooked up my mobile and did a Debian netinstall with it. My usage that month was over a 1GB. |
| 22:35.47 | jasta | -a |
| 22:35.55 | romainguy___ | jerkface03: no unlimited plans? |
| 22:36.14 | jerkface03 | romainguy___: well, they just started them at the end of last year |
| 22:36.18 | jerkface03 | but even those are a bit too expensive for me |
| 22:36.23 | jerkface03 | i think it runs at $500/month |
| 22:36.27 | romainguy___ | ouch |
| 22:36.28 | jerkface03 | 500 or 300 |
| 22:36.29 | jerkface03 | i forget |
| 22:36.31 | jasta | in the US, unlimited plans are $25/mo usually. it's great. |
| 22:36.47 | jasta | $40/mo if you're a sucker ;) |
| 22:36.57 | romainguy___ | I love my unlimited plan ^^ |
| 22:37.06 | jerkface03 | jasta: with who? cingular at&t? |
| 22:37.11 | jasta | jerkface03: AT&T, yes. |
| 22:37.20 | jasta | Verizon is the same, Sprint is even better ($20/mo, I think). |
| 22:37.55 | jasta | T-Mobile may be even cheaper still. |
| 22:37.55 | jasta | The US is much more progressive on cellular data access than Europe. |
| 22:38.11 | Hiisty | i have 384kbit 3g unlimited for 9e/month |
| 22:38.14 | jasta | Which is surprising, considering our relative population densities. |
| 22:38.23 | romainguy___ | jasta: er... |
| 22:38.29 | romainguy___ | jasta: I wouldn't go as far as that |
| 22:38.37 | romainguy___ | jasta: I had much cheaper voice/sms plans in Europe |
| 22:38.42 | romainguy___ | jasta: with much better coverage |
| 22:38.48 | jasta | That's not cellular data access, is it? |
| 22:38.55 | romainguy___ | argh |
| 22:39.02 | romainguy___ | didn't read the data part ^^ |
| 22:39.10 | romainguy___ | on that I agree |
| 22:39.14 | romainguy___ | data plans are better here |
| 22:39.26 | romainguy___ | although I don't know what they are now with the iPhone |
| 22:39.30 | romainguy___ | it's probably the same prices |
| 22:39.39 | jasta | And I submit that Android is targetting regions with sane data plans. Android is certain to be very data heavy. |
| 22:39.47 | Hiisty | and 2M/2M for 29,80e |
| 22:40.25 | jasta | I think Android is certainly focused on the US market, yes. |
| 22:40.40 | jasta | But only because Japan is impenetrable :) |
| 22:41.03 | jasta | And Europe is insane. |
| 22:41.45 | jasta | Hiisty: How would you benchmark that? |
| 22:42.06 | Hiisty | jasta: well iphone is the best bechmark |
| 22:42.18 | romainguy___ | jasta: And Europe is insane. << how so? |
| 22:42.18 | Stephmw | I think if we were to average all mobile innovation US/EU we'd come out somewhere around 1990 |
| 22:42.29 | jasta | Hiisty: In what sense? |
| 22:42.37 | jasta | romainguy___: Their data tariffs, as I said before. |
| 22:43.04 | jasta | Canada also has per KB download rates I believe. |
| 22:43.26 | davidw | can you get unlocked phones in the US? |
| 22:43.29 | jasta | But really, I think all of this is changing rapidly. Android may make its mark here as well. |
| 22:43.34 | Hiisty | jasta: well, we (ppl in EU) think that iphone is so old technology that nobody who isn't fanboy will buy it |
| 22:43.49 | jasta | davidw: Sort of. It's not very institutionalized, but you can get them on eBay. |
| 22:43.59 | davidw | hey, he's from Nokialand, no wonder:-) |
| 22:44.15 | davidw | Hiisty, I think that, to be fair, the iPhone is innovative in some ways |
| 22:44.28 | jasta | Hiisty: So you have visual voicemail? ;) |
| 22:44.55 | Hiisty | davidw: innovative, yes. but it does have old technology |
| 22:44.56 | romainguy___ | davidw: buying a phone without a plan is annoying here :) |
| 22:45.16 | Hiisty | jasta: no i dont;) |
| 22:45.19 | davidw | jasta, it's pretty easy to buy them in europe. Also, caller pays is the rule, which is one more reason that lots of people have phones compared to the US (although maybe that's finally evening out?) |
| 22:46.02 | jasta | romainguy___: What phone sits in your pocket currently, BTW? |
| 22:46.07 | romainguy___ | jasta: an iPhone |
| 22:46.12 | jasta | Of course ;) |
| 22:46.14 | jasta | what about before that? :) |
| 22:46.14 | Hiisty | i have nokia e90 |
| 22:46.24 | romainguy___ | jasta: a Sony Ericsson W810i |
| 22:46.25 | romainguy___ | loved that one |
| 22:47.02 | jasta | i am a bit disenchanted because i can't really use an iPhone, and so might not even be able to use the first Android phones released :) |
| 22:47.15 | romainguy___ | jasta: why is that? |
| 22:47.40 | romainguy___ | (the only thing is miss on my iPhone compared to my old Sony is the ability to install Salling Clicker) |
| 22:48.00 | jasta | romainguy___: It's personal, I have medical problems :) |
| 22:48.01 | Hiisty | romainguy___: and MMS, and video? |
| 22:48.34 | romainguy___ | Hiisty: I couldn't care less |
| 22:48.38 | Hiisty | :) |
| 22:48.48 | Hiisty | me neither |
| 22:49.08 | romainguy___ | ^^ |
| 22:49.11 | Hiisty | but i must confess, that i hate everything with apple logo |
| 22:49.16 | Hiisty | and fanboys |
| 22:49.26 | romainguy___ | Hiisty: you can use an iPhone without being a fanboy :) |
| 22:49.41 | Hiisty | yes, but i have better phone in my pocket |
| 22:49.48 | romainguy___ | in your opinion sure :) |
| 22:49.55 | romainguy___ | I like my devices and apps to look good and be simple |
| 22:49.55 | Hiisty | and i always will have |
| 22:49.58 | jerkface03 | apple is synonymous with douchebags and bums |
| 22:50.00 | jasta | But you're also a Nokia fanboy, so. |
| 22:50.06 | romainguy___ | I don't care about features |
| 22:50.11 | romainguy___ | I'm a graphics whore ;-) |
| 22:50.26 | Hiisty | jasta: true |
| 22:50.35 | jasta | romainguy___: You're just not being very abstract is all, you care about features: the exact set of them you want. |
| 22:50.45 | davidw | I think people get kicked out of .fi if they don't like Nokia |
| 22:51.05 | romainguy___ | jasta: you know what I mean |
| 22:51.08 | Hiisty | but compare e90 and iphone and u will understand why i have this |
| 22:51.28 | jasta | romainguy___: *grin* |
| 22:51.29 | Stephmw | davidw: if they kicked too many out, there;d be nobody left |
| 22:51.29 | davidw | Hiisty, well, first of all because you can't buy an iphone there, right? |
| 22:51.32 | Hiisty | davidw: that is true :) |
| 22:51.47 | jasta | romainguy___: I was being practical though, for example, Exchange synchronization is important to me, and the iphone doesn't offer it anyhow. |
| 22:51.58 | romainguy___ | jasta: that I understand |
| 22:51.59 | jasta | So I don't really "care about features", but I'm pissed it doesn't have that one. |
| 22:52.04 | Hiisty | davidw: well not at the moment, but u can buy one from germany and unlock it |
| 22:52.13 | jasta | So it's quite obtuse to say something like that. |
| 22:53.07 | jasta | I understand that Android will probably ship without Exchange support, but I'm hoping that it will come. If not, maybe I'll do it :) |
| 22:53.09 | romainguy___ | jasta: sure, but I won't be pissed because it doesn't have *insert something* |
| 22:53.24 | romainguy___ | jasta: as I said, phone and email is all I need and pretty much all phones do that now |
| 22:55.59 | jasta | romainguy___: I need only freecell, rss news, and Exchange synchronization. |
| 22:56.00 | f00f- | forget exchange |
| 22:56.03 | f00f- | you'll live better |
| 22:56.10 | romainguy___ | hehe |
| 22:56.20 | romainguy___ | jasta: I'm glad I don't need Exchange :) |
| 22:56.29 | jasta | The Exchange protocol has been discovered by the Evolution folks, so perhaps I will make it work with Android some day :) |
| 22:56.40 | jasta | I have an enormous amount of ambition in the mobile market hehe |
| 22:56.50 | romainguy___ | jasta: if it's half as bad as the outloook express file format, good luck |
| 22:57.02 | romainguy___ | I once wrote a phython library to extract emails from outlook express storage files |
| 22:57.09 | jasta | romainguy___: I'm sure it is, but all of Microsoft's protocols are. |
| 22:57.16 | romainguy___ | I will never ever get close to a Microsoft format again |
| 22:57.48 | jasta | I wrote a tool to create .lnk files once. Oh boy. |
| 23:00.00 | f00f- | hahahahah |
| 23:00.22 | f00f- | i remember the days when .lnk concept was visionary |
| 23:00.25 | f00f- | in the MS world at least |
| 23:04.36 | jasta | Microsoft is so annoying hehe |
| 23:05.46 | romainguy___ | they have some good stuff though ^^ |
| 23:05.52 | romainguy___ | ^^ |
| 23:06.50 | chomchom | I've just stepped in, I'd just like to show some support for apple in amongst the haters. :) |
| 23:07.05 | chomchom | Sorry for catching up on that a bit late |
| 23:07.33 | jasta | I like Apple as well, it's just not for me. I happily recommend their products to others, though. |
| 23:07.33 | chomchom | The iphone is a top notch device bar none. |
| 23:08.41 | jasta | I doubt I'll ever be swayed away from primarily running open source code. |
| 23:09.19 | davidw | yeah |
| 23:09.28 | romainguy___ | it's funny, every single line of code I ever wrote was released under an open source/free software license |
| 23:09.29 | jasta | I hope history doesn't turn me into a crotchety weirdo as a result. |
| 23:09.38 | romainguy___ | and yet I don't care about running proprietary software |
| 23:09.44 | chomchom | Hiisty: I'm sure you hang in some l33t phone circles where people communicate through amazing UI experiences I as a newb could never imagine, but for my money I would wager that there has never been a device so well formed for the purpose of common mobile communication as the iphone. |
| 23:10.08 | davidw | chomchom, the star trek things are pretty handy |
| 23:10.16 | davidw | although they don't do MMS either |
| 23:10.30 | jasta | romainguy___: I care because it is how I have learned to do anything at all. |
| 23:11.27 | romainguy___ | jasta: me too and that's why I write only open source code, but as a user, I just want the best apps/environments for my need and very often OSS is just not what I want |
| 23:11.31 | davidw | yeah... I just love the feeling of being able to take stuff apart |
| 23:11.33 | chomchom | sorry david! Star trek? |
| 23:11.49 | davidw | chomchom, yeah, the communicators |
| 23:11.50 | jasta | I am certain that open source and the associated community is the only way I got away with not going to college, while still enjoying a successful career writing software. |
| 23:12.11 | chomchom | ah yeah |
| 23:12.23 | f00f- | a lot of proprietary stuff is rock solid: WinAMP, Visual Basic, PowerBASIC, Opera, etc. to name a few |
| 23:12.28 | jasta | So, I feel indebted, but in a positive way that I wish to give back. |
| 23:12.49 | romainguy___ | jasta: sure, and again that's why I write open source code; but that does not mean to me that I should force myself to use only OSS :) |
| 23:12.51 | f00f- | jasta: a lot of people have that same feeling, but they give back total crap so it clutters the FOSS landscape :X |
| 23:13.02 | romainguy___ | (I would be really pained without Photoshop and Lightroom when it comes to photograph :)) |
| 23:13.11 | f00f- | <3 lightroom |
| 23:13.19 | chomchom | God...don't get me started on the gimp |
| 23:13.27 | jasta | romainguy___: I wouldn't say I force myself. It just happens to be right for me in every case ;) |
| 23:13.32 | romainguy___ | chomchom: I'm not pointing fingers :) |
| 23:13.34 | chomchom | there is an oper source effort in need of some guidance |
| 23:13.44 | romainguy___ | jasta: which is nice |
| 23:13.59 | jasta | OS X, for example, is for 8 year old children :) |
| 23:14.04 | romainguy___ | lol thanks :) |
| 23:14.17 | jasta | I'm just joking. OS X is a fine product for ages 8 - 14. |
| 23:14.47 | chomchom | How so jasta? |
| 23:14.54 | jasta | Not so, I'm still just joking. |
| 23:14.59 | romainguy___ | chomchom: he means you don't have to fight X to use a big screen :) |
| 23:15.10 | romainguy___ | my first two weeks at Google I had a Linux box |
| 23:15.16 | romainguy___ | I really wanted to use Linux at work |
| 23:15.31 | romainguy___ | but it insisted on displaying X at 1280x900 on my 30" monitor |
| 23:15.46 | romainguy___ | :) |
| 23:15.57 | romainguy___ | at least I was able to see the pixels clearly |
| 23:15.59 | jasta | romainguy___: I would recommend you replace "it" with "you" :) |
| 23:16.05 | jasta | OEO, PEBKAC, yadda yadda... |
| 23:16.17 | romainguy___ | jasta: oh I would gladly think so |
| 23:16.40 | romainguy___ | jasta: except having used linux for years on laptop since 95, I had my share of fights with X and screens |
| 23:16.50 | jasta | I mean, plenty of people misuse or fail to understand any device, of any degree of complexity. Some folks use toasters wrong. |
| 23:16.57 | romainguy___ | jasta: agreed |
| 23:17.01 | davidw | romainguy, I was just wondering that today... if a company like Google would have a 'standard linux setup' (or 2 or 3) known to work perfectly with standard issue company hardware |
| 23:17.12 | romainguy___ | jasta: but as I just said, I had plenty of experience dealing with X and weird screen configurations before |
| 23:17.37 | romainguy___ | davidw: we do actually, but it was one of the first batches of 30" screens |
| 23:17.46 | jasta | My grandma's microwave has this default button on it that will nuke anything for 15 seconds on high. She microwaves everything using this button, despite their being a timer inside the door. |
| 23:17.58 | jasta | She will re-heat steak and potatoes by standing there for 3 minutes pressing that button every 15 seocnds. |
| 23:18.06 | davidw | ahahhahha |
| 23:18.16 | zhobbs | I use the +minute button for everything |
| 23:18.17 | jasta | I'm not joking. I tried showering her, but she just didn't want to hear it. |
| 23:18.26 | chomchom | heh, the one button does most affect. |
| 23:18.38 | zhobbs | 3 mins, easier to press +1 3 times than 300start |
| 23:18.40 | davidw | showering her? |
| 23:18.49 | jasta | with knowledge. |
| 23:18.50 | romainguy___ | davidw: smelly story |
| 23:18.57 | jasta | I meant show her obviously. I hate you. |
| 23:19.01 | davidw | something fishy about it |
| 23:19.06 | chomchom | eeew |
| 23:20.05 | davidw | I have been informed that it is time to shut the computer down..later:-) |
| 23:20.10 | jasta | Anyway, romainguy___, I have had my fair share of quarrels with Linux myself. |
| 23:20.39 | Hiisty | chomchom: well iphone has nice features (touchpad) but iphone doesent have any of the qualities what i want from a phone, (qwerty, hsdpa, gps, memorycard and full support to 3rd party software) :) |
| 23:21.02 | Hiisty | s/touchpad/touchscreen |
| 23:21.06 | jasta | romainguy___: it reminds me of a great Einstein quote, however :) |
| 23:21.29 | romainguy___ | jasta: I used to love tinkering with my OS and Linux made me happy for a while because of that, but now I just want to boot up my machine and get some work done; and wasting two weeks on a screen was fun at first but quite annoying in the end :) |
| 23:21.33 | chomchom | Hiisty: ah right, you're more of an open moko suited guy |
| 23:21.57 | chomchom | romainguy: amen |
| 23:22.10 | zhobbs | that's what OS X is for |
| 23:22.13 | chomchom | I've used quite a few flavors of linux now and will continue to do so server side but mac osx is by far and away the most productive, usable operating system. Otherwise I'd use something else. |
| 23:22.47 | romainguy___ | chomchom: I guess it depends on your usage |
| 23:22.51 | zhobbs | I just would never shell out the cash for mac hardware to even give it a try |
| 23:22.57 | romainguy___ | I know quite a few persons who would disagree heartily :) |
| 23:23.27 | romainguy___ | zhobbs: that's my problem being a graphics guy and all, I also like my machines to look nice ^^ |
| 23:23.43 | jasta | romainguy___: I will say that I personally am impressed with Ubuntu. It's much easier to use than my usual preference of Debian. |
| 23:23.51 | romainguy___ | jasta: oh I just love Ubuntu |
| 23:24.12 | romainguy___ | jasta: and I would gladly do development on an Ubuntu box |
| 23:24.21 | romainguy___ | jasta: but I need graphics tools :)) |
| 23:24.21 | jasta | I do :) |
| 23:24.36 | jasta | I use GIMP for simple stuff all the time, but I'm by no means a graphics guy :) |
| 23:24.44 | romainguy___ | :) |
| 23:24.50 | jasta | I find GIMP and Photoshop both equally confusing and strange, so it matters not which one I use :) |
| 23:24.56 | romainguy___ | oh Photoshop is a PAIN to learn |
| 23:24.58 | chomchom | I WISH the gimp cut it, I really do. |
| 23:25.03 | romainguy___ | one of the worst UI ever |
| 23:25.05 | romainguy___ | *but* |
| 23:25.15 | chomchom | romainguy: totally disagree |
| 23:25.19 | romainguy___ | it's very powerful and once you learn it it's freakin' productive |
| 23:25.41 | romainguy___ | chomchom: oh come on, the Cancel button which becomes a Reset button when you press the Alt key ?! |
| 23:25.55 | romainguy___ | the UI is full of crap like this |
| 23:26.12 | romainguy___ | in Adobe Camera Raw the Open button has 3 different modes depending on what keys you hold on |
| 23:26.18 | chomchom | that is one of the few bad points yes |
| 23:26.26 | zhobbs | romainguy___: how many buttons are on your mouse/trackball/etc? |
| 23:26.36 | romainguy___ | zhobbs: 8 |
| 23:26.59 | chomchom | but for just pick up and play value everyone can make their fave gradient drop shadowed text much faster and more intuitively than in the GIMP |
| 23:27.00 | zhobbs | ok...just wondering if people use those mac mouses |
| 23:27.09 | chomchom | no, mac mouses suck |
| 23:27.12 | romainguy___ | zhobbs: some do I guess, I don't :) |
| 23:27.26 | romainguy___ | chomchom: sure but I didn't say The GIMP was better :) |
| 23:27.27 | chomchom | microsof thardware is usually very good |
| 23:27.31 | chomchom | :) |
| 23:27.47 | romainguy___ | I wish Paint.NET was available on Linux or even Mac OS X |
| 23:29.55 | jasta | actually, i think the simple stuff in GIMP is pretty easy. i have no graphics background at all and i can figure out basic stuff. |
| 23:30.10 | romainguy___ | at least the UI in The GIMP 2 is usable |
| 23:30.13 | jasta | i am not even being stubborn, i genuinely believe that. perhaps my brain hasn't been poisoned by Photoshop :) |
| 23:30.19 | romainguy___ | their old right click based UI was such a pain |
| 23:30.28 | jasta | yeah, i'm referring only to recent versin of GIMP. I have only started using it much in the last 8 months. |
| 23:30.39 | jasta | recent versions* |
| 23:30.45 | zhobbs | the old right click style was weird... |
| 23:31.09 | zhobbs | there's always gimpshop |
| 23:31.11 | chomchom | Out the box configuration is an obstacle course. |
| 23:32.08 | chomchom | New ninja users have to use shrunken stars and agility to fight off new floating windows that attack you with every click. |
| 23:33.12 | jasta | In GIMP? |
| 23:33.41 | jasta | I don't remember configuring it at all, nor do I remember any popups? |
| 23:34.28 | *** part/#android donomo (n=donp@donk.personaltelco.net) |
| 23:34.49 | chomchom | yeah, and the horrible rasterizing of your images on resizing without plugins. The non intuitive interactions of layers and such. |
| 23:53.01 | *** join/#android matt_c (n=mcroydon@137.147.45.66.cm.sunflower.com) |
| 23:58.54 | jasta | chomchom: Well, it seems pretty easy for me. |
| 23:59.04 | jasta | And like I said, I'm no artist. |