| 00:02.01 | aaroncampbell | TimRiker: Wow, I assumed companies would have moved faster than that... Ok |
| 00:02.20 | aaroncampbell | What exactly is the point of writing software for something that has nothing to run on then? |
| 00:02.55 | TimRiker | aaroncampbell: a very good question indeed. |
| 00:03.37 | rwhitby | aaroncampbell: cause there's big prize money that's tempting lots of people, and making them all keep their source code closed. |
| 00:03.55 | TimRiker | aaroncampbell: perhaps it's just nice to work on an open source mobile platform? oh. wait, that's not it, Android is not open source. ah well. |
| 00:04.26 | Stephmw | tbh, I think any hw company who flat out said 'yeah, we're pretty much done' would be shooting itself in the foot |
| 00:05.12 | aaroncampbell | I guess then the reward is to generate programs, so that Google can say "you should make devices that use this, because it has lots of cool stuff" It seems like they should offer a similar reward for the best mobile device... |
| 00:06.09 | TimRiker | aaroncampbell: interesting. where as I think they should actually release the source so that it can get ported to Linux devices that already exist. |
| 00:06.47 | aaroncampbell | TimRiker: is that supposed to happen in the future? Or is that just you wishing? |
| 00:07.32 | TimRiker | course I also think that android should use a proper linux library set and not reinvent the world as closed source advertised as open source. but perhaps that's just me. |
| 00:08.41 | TimRiker | aaroncampbell: the press releases say android "is open source" but it's not. the press releases also say "it" will all be released under an apache license. (which does NOT require releasing the source). |
| 00:09.37 | TimRiker | there are some email messages and comments in this channel indicating that in some bright day in the future all the source will be set free. but then I suppose Microsoft could go open source too. so here we sit holding our breath. |
| 00:11.19 | TimRiker | I suppose they are waiting till the closed source complete library and user space replacements are so dependent on the bugs in the current implementation that the bugs won't be fixable. then they will release the source and laugh about it. |
| 00:11.53 | TimRiker | cause clearly large closed source development projects are the path to stable software. |
| 00:12.51 | TimRiker | after all, look how well Vista is doing! ... ok, /me stops ranting for now. |
| 00:13.39 | romainguy__ | TimRiker: There are plenty of perfectly stable closed-source software, and plenty of very buggy Open Source software |
| 00:13.50 | romainguy__ | It's dangerous and hard to make general assumptions like this :) |
| 00:14.00 | TimRiker | romainguy_: obviously. google is counting on that. |
| 00:14.58 | romainguy__ | Remember, the current SDK is only an early look (it's in bold on the web site) and it is still undergoing heavy development |
| 00:15.29 | TimRiker | romainguy_: obviously. so is Vista or whatever the next big closed-source os release will be called. |
| 00:16.01 | romainguy__ | What is the relationship with Vista here? |
| 00:16.35 | TimRiker | cause the open source mantra is: release never, or only when forced to. those developers in the community no nothing about stability or testing. what's testing? |
| 00:16.47 | TimRiker | eep. s/no/know/ |
| 00:17.15 | TimRiker | romainguy_: just another great example of a stable timely released closed source project. |
| 00:19.18 | TimRiker | what I don't understand is why android uses the Linux kernel in the first place? that piece of crud could easily be replaced with a *bsd kernel and then no source would need to be released. why did they pick up some lame piece of GPL software if they hate the GPL so much? I'll be someone paid them. |
| 00:20.03 | TimRiker | ooh! even better, just use the M$ Windows Mobile kernel and build on that! that would be sweet. |
| 00:20.33 | TimRiker | hehe. is it working? :) |
| 00:20.35 | rwhitby | the simple fact is that there are companies investing millions of dollars in this alliance, and they will want a return on that investment based on the source not being released until they have released their first products. |
| 00:21.04 | rwhitby | it's nothing to do with open source motives, it's all pure dollars. |
| 00:21.13 | Stephmw | TimRiker: only a bit |
| 00:21.34 | TimRiker | rwhitby: then why choose some crappy GPL software? |
| 00:21.47 | rwhitby | TimRiker: all part of the marketing plan |
| 00:22.06 | TimRiker | ah. the old bait and switch. yeah, I suppose they have that part down. |
| 00:22.55 | rwhitby | I believe they will release all the source, but not until the OHA hardware companies have released their products. |
| 00:24.48 | TimRiker | rwhitby: unfortunately that's precisely when releasing the source will do the least good. after all the existing bugs are effectively carved in stone. |
| 00:25.49 | morrildl | TimRiker: open-source is not magic |
| 00:25.55 | TimRiker | so we end up with yet another buggy mobile platform. this one claiming to be open source (as opposed to Microsoft's "available source") |
| 00:25.58 | morrildl | Bugs don't get magically fixed because source is available |
| 00:26.37 | TimRiker | morrildl: quite the reverse. bugs don't get fixed at all when the source is not available. |
| 00:26.53 | morrildl | TimRiker: now that's just silly |
| 00:27.06 | morrildl | There are millions of developers out there who will disagree with that |
| 00:27.30 | TimRiker | so if the goal is to fix as few bugs as possible. they best way to get there is to have as few eyes look at the code as you can. |
| 00:28.06 | TimRiker | oh, I'm sure M$ agrees with the approach completely. and palm and symbian for that matter. |
| 00:28.13 | morrildl | If you choose not to believe that we will open source Android, then indeed that is your right |
| 00:28.18 | TimRiker | oh, and we can include Apple's iPhone in the mix too. |
| 00:28.26 | TimRiker | it's the best way to run. |
| 00:28.32 | morrildl | If you do, you are not our target audience, and I invite you to move on to another platform |
| 00:28.58 | TimRiker | morrildl: Oh, I fully believe that after the bugs are set in stone, the source will be released. I really have no doubts about that. |
| 00:29.31 | romainguy__ | TimRiker: Why are you so convinced we don't want to fix bugs? |
| 00:29.34 | TimRiker | I'm here on the vain hope that someone will get a clue. not seeing it happen, but hoping. |
| 00:29.54 | morrildl | TimRiker: you are correct, you will be ineffective in that goal, here |
| 00:30.05 | TimRiker | romainguy_: I'm just reflecting the current actions. as opposed to the current market speak. |
| 00:30.51 | *** mode/#android [+o morrildl] by ChanServ |
| 00:31.17 | *** topic/#android by morrildl -> "Welcome to Android! As we move closer to launch, an Issue Tracker is now available: http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/list" |
| 00:31.59 | *** topic/#android by morrildl -> Welcome to Android! As we move closer to launch, an Issue Tracker is now available: http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/list |
| 00:32.04 | morrildl | I always assume the quotes are required |
| 00:32.05 | TimRiker | romainguy_: certainly not. the more employed folks that have access to the source, the better the code can get. |
| 00:32.11 | morrildl | I guess I think of IRC as a shell |
| 00:32.33 | morrildl | TimRiker: unemployed developers are incapable of writing good code...? |
| 00:32.34 | TimRiker | it's just unfortunate that none of the community members will be able to help until it's too late. |
| 00:32.47 | Stephmw | morrildl: will there be an explanatory blog entry somewhere about the tracker? |
| 00:33.01 | Stephmw | morrildl: how is it synched with the internal one? |
| 00:33.03 | morrildl | Stephmw: already is: http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/01/you-cant-rush-perfection-but-now-you.html |
| 00:33.07 | morrildl | Currently, by me :) |
| 00:33.27 | TimRiker | would be nice to get CIA* in here connected to the kernel repository. |
| 00:33.46 | TimRiker | kind of ironic that the piece nobody can test is the piece that has source available. |
| 00:33.47 | morrildl | Which is to say, the full automated 2-way sync is taking longer than expected, so we have a semi-automated 1-way sync working |
| 00:33.59 | romainguy__ | morrildl: Thanks, now I can cancel all my weekend projects :) |
| 00:34.08 | morrildl | romainguy__: heh :) |
| 00:34.24 | Stephmw | morrildl: cheers |
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| 00:35.16 | duey | Lo) |
| 00:35.28 | duey | i have a question |
| 00:35.35 | duey | my project involves using the camera |
| 00:35.44 | duey | because the camera is not properly emulated |
| 00:35.52 | duey | i dont want to include it in the submission |
| 00:35.59 | duey | (because i cant test it) |
| 00:36.20 | duey | should we just fake it up |
| 00:39.05 | morrildl | duey: that seems reasonable. You'll want to document it in your README file that you submit with the application though |
| 00:39.36 | TimRiker | morrildl: are there any plans to add camera pass through support to the emulator? That would be useful. |
| 00:40.03 | morrildl | TimRiker: yes, definitely. The state of hardware emulation in general needs to be improved -- not just the camera, but Bluetooth, SMS, and so on |
| 00:40.10 | TimRiker | That would allow the Google camera app to be included and give folks a feeling for how that integrates. |
| 00:40.27 | morrildl | TimRiker: a lot of that has been fixed and will be in the next SDK release we are working on, although I don't have a specific inventory handy |
| 00:41.01 | TimRiker | presumably the real hardware has a camera, cause what sources are out talk about it. |
| 00:41.09 | morrildl | TimRiker: correct |
| 00:41.18 | TimRiker | will real hardware be shows at the get together? |
| 00:41.27 | morrildl | And even if the initial launch model doesn't have a camera, the platform would need to support it for ones that do |
| 00:41.28 | TimRiker | er shown... |
| 00:41.35 | morrildl | which get-together? |
| 00:41.41 | morrildl | Oh, the one on the 23rd? |
| 00:41.54 | TimRiker | http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/01/who-wants-cocoa-smores.html |
| 00:41.56 | TimRiker | yes. |
| 00:42.24 | morrildl | Unfortunately no |
| 00:42.43 | Stephmw | TimRiker: surely any such demo would need a PR fanfare anyway ;) |
| 00:42.52 | TimRiker | do any of the dev platforms have forward facing cameras? ie: pointed at the user? |
| 00:42.58 | morrildl | TimRiker: good question |
| 00:43.03 | morrildl | I don't know the answer |
| 00:43.12 | morrildl | I will attempt to find out |
| 00:44.43 | TimRiker | morrildl: thx! I know some of the HTC phone have them, though the released US versions don't. |
| 00:45.21 | TimRiker | the HTC Kaiser for example which seems similar to the HTC google platform from looking at the source. |
| 00:45.48 | morrildl | is that the successor to the Apache? |
| 00:46.31 | morrildl | oh cool, it's got a..... bendy... thing |
| 00:46.44 | morrildl | nifty |
| 00:47.01 | TimRiker | morrildl: sort of. the apache is cdma. the kaiser is gsm/hsdpa |
| 00:47.10 | morrildl | ahh |
| 00:47.46 | TimRiker | at&t sells the kaiser as the at&t "tilt" but they ripped off the front facing camera. |
| 00:48.57 | TimRiker | long url: http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/cell-phone-details/?device=AT%26T+Tilt(TM)&q_sku=sku1060009 |
| 00:50.27 | jasta | mmm, delicious news about the bug tracker :) |
| 00:53.21 | morrildl | TimRiker: that's lame |
| 00:53.22 | TimRiker | http://www.google.com/events/events_full.html - says registration is closed. is it full now? /me was pointing someone else at the page. |
| 00:53.35 | TimRiker | morrildl: yes! like many other lame things. :) |
| 00:53.38 | morrildl | TimRiker: it is probably full |
| 00:53.51 | morrildl | TimRiker: feel free to have the person email me about it, and I will see if there are any open slots |
| 00:54.24 | TimRiker | k. though this time it was my boss who I was asking to cover air fare. :) |
| 00:54.32 | morrildl | TimRiker: doh :) |
| 00:54.49 | morrildl | TimRiker: if s/he wants to attend let me know and I will see what I can do |
| 00:57.15 | TimRiker | morrildl: k. will do. better head out at the moment. cya all! don't take my ranting to seriously, unless of course you are in a position to make changes. :) |
| 00:57.25 | morrildl | TimRiker: see ya! |
| 00:58.37 | morrildl | What? Only 1 new bug so far? |
| 00:58.57 | Stephmw | cheeky of you to release it friday evening ;) |
| 00:59.02 | Stephmw | everyone's down the bar/pub |
| 00:59.04 | morrildl | Stephmw: lol |
| 00:59.08 | morrildl | Is it Friday? |
| 00:59.10 | morrildl | so it is |
| 00:59.16 | morrildl | wow |
| 00:59.21 | morrildl | yeah actually that was probably suboptimal |
| 00:59.27 | morrildl | hmm |
| 00:59.32 | morrildl | now I worry people won't see the announcement |
| 00:59.43 | morrildl | I'd better go make that post stick on the Group at least |
| 01:00.07 | romainguy__ | morrildl: No, that was a good idea, at least we will enjoy our weekend :) |
| 01:00.07 | Stephmw | maybe have someone else blog about it on monday, saying how great it is it's finally here |
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| 01:00.43 | jasta | i am excited, but i don't know that i have any new bugs to report that haven't already been addressed or are at least known. |
| 01:01.03 | jasta | maybe i will copy over that bug about listselector drawables invoking implicit padding. that is still really annoying :) |
| 01:01.18 | morrildl | Stephmw: see ya! |
| 01:01.28 | jasta | oh yeah, and i get SIGBUS all the time when i launch my application from Eclipse |
| 01:02.02 | jasta | which sometimes seems to cause the entire emulated OS to restart. |
| 01:02.27 | morrildl | jasta: nice, SIGBUS is no good |
| 01:02.34 | jasta | yeah, it happens all the time actually. |
| 01:02.51 | morrildl | When it happens do 'adb bugreport' and attach the output to an Issue |
| 01:02.52 | jasta | it is in dalvik (of course). |
| 01:03.11 | jasta | i've got some time, let me see if i can go trigger it |
| 01:03.16 | morrildl | cool |
| 01:03.25 | jasta | the problem, of course, is that you goobers just restart everything on failure. |
| 01:03.32 | morrildl | heh :) |
| 01:03.48 | jasta | so it is hard to capture it as a fatal problem, it just "takes longer" to start. but in adb logcat, it's clearly going bonkers. |
| 01:04.09 | morrildl | ahh |
| 01:04.27 | morrildl | yeah 'adb bugreport' is like adb logcat plus some native stack stuff |
| 01:04.45 | romainguy__ | jasta: I fixed the bug about padding yesterday |
| 01:04.49 | romainguy__ | jasta: No need to report it :) |
| 01:04.56 | jasta | good :) |
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| 01:09.47 | aku99 | hi what this channel about..? |
| 01:10.01 | jasta | http://www.android.com |
| 01:12.52 | aku99 | brillian..:) |
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| 01:14.21 | winksaville | That is great news about the issue tracker |
| 01:14.48 | morrildl | Still only 1 new bug |
| 01:14.52 | jasta | romainguy__: are there plans to include a traditional progress bar widget? |
| 01:14.54 | morrildl | I am torn |
| 01:14.58 | morrildl | Part of me wants to throw down |
| 01:15.05 | morrildl | Another part of me is terrified of that ;) |
| 01:15.35 | jasta | i think that everyone has already been reporting theyre issues |
| 01:15.46 | jasta | so its nice you have a central repository, but give us time to find more brokenness :) |
| 01:15.57 | jasta | don't worry, i'm certain more brokenness exists to be found. |
| 01:16.14 | morrildl | heh heh |
| 01:16.22 | morrildl | oh, I know that all too well :) |
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| 01:18.51 | jasta | hmm, can't reproduce the sigbus problem now. |
| 01:18.59 | morrildl | heh |
| 01:19.05 | jasta | i mean, if you really want to catch it, you should disable the automatic restart of processes. |
| 01:19.14 | winksaville | I just posted a bug today as well as few others, should we post them, I'd rather wait if a new release is eminent? |
| 01:19.14 | jasta | now is the time to have shit like that off. |
| 01:19.51 | winksaville | er (a few others earlier) |
| 01:20.35 | morrildl | jasta: enter it as a feature request :) |
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| 01:22.22 | romainguy__ | jasta: romainguy__: are there plans to include a traditional progress bar widget? < it already exists |
| 01:22.31 | romainguy__ | the "circular" look is just a drawable |
| 01:22.50 | jasta | romainguy__: really? that is a cute design. |
| 01:22.53 | romainguy__ | you can use android.R.progress_horizontal as the background to get a "traditional" progress bar |
| 01:23.08 | romainguy__ | or you can make your own |
| 01:23.17 | romainguy__ | ProgressBar is very versatile :)) |
| 01:23.33 | jasta | how does the horizontal progress bar look? :) |
| 01:23.37 | jasta | i don't really want to try it right now hehe |
| 01:24.04 | romainguy__ | it looks like a blue bar with rounded corners |
| 01:24.07 | romainguy__ | nothing surprising |
| 01:24.13 | jasta | hmm, cute. |
| 01:24.27 | romainguy__ | but basically ProgressBar simply sets the level of the background drawable |
| 01:24.36 | romainguy__ | so your progress indicator can be pretty much anything |
| 01:25.19 | romainguy__ | it could be an animated icon, a picture that turns from gray to colors, an elephant shape that fills progressively... |
| 01:25.42 | jasta | that is very nice. |
| 01:26.00 | romainguy__ | Yeah, we have bugs but we also have cool features ;-) |
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| 01:26.44 | jasta | and that would be supported with an indeterminate progress bar too? say you wanted a picture to pulsate from grayscale to color? :) |
| 01:26.50 | morrildl | I think the progress dialog should show a log |
| 01:27.04 | jasta | a log? |
| 01:27.04 | morrildl | and animate fire on the log that gets increasingly brilliant, until at 100% the log is reduced to ash |
| 01:27.39 | jasta | nah, i think the dialog itself should slowly flutter away like dust in the wind :) |
| 01:28.23 | jasta | or, dinosaurs should rush onto the screen and devour it, and then charge the "camera" and eat it. now that would be one hell of a shocking easter egg. |
| 01:29.45 | jasta | i'm kidding, of course |
| 01:30.03 | jasta | romainguy__: you guys should definitely extend the current ApiSamples to include some of these goodies. |
| 01:30.15 | jasta | For example, you don't even have a decent example of a custom layout or view. |
| 01:30.31 | winksaville | morrildl: In your blog regarding issue tracking you state: |
| 01:30.33 | winksaville | "..we invite developers to file an issue to let us know about any problems you find with the SDK." |
| 01:30.34 | winksaville | Does "an issue" mean we're allowed to only post a single issue for all of the problems? |
| 01:31.00 | romainguy__ | jasta: Indeterminate is also based on levels, so yes, that would work |
| 01:31.20 | romainguy__ | jasta: As for the samples, you'll see in the next SDK what's new :p |
| 01:31.30 | morrildl | winksaville: nope, go nuts :) |
| 01:31.34 | morrildl | one issue per Issue |
| 01:32.16 | romainguy__ | jasta: i'm kidding, of course << I'm sure you could write an OpenGL drawable with dinosaurs |
| 01:33.10 | jasta | sure you could, but you'd have to be a complete loony. |
| 01:33.28 | winksaville | morrildl: Makes sense, you might update the wording. |
| 01:33.38 | romainguy__ | Well, nothing surprises me anymore since I've seen a Swing look and feel offer the ability to use Rhino-shaped buttons |
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| 10:59.23 | Lede | romainguy: romainguy_ do people need to re-submit all the bug reports they send to the discsussion group? |
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