| 01:30.43 | ocuza | anyways romanovic I got an old LDS coin |
| 01:31.04 | ocuza | old LDS issued gold from back in the days |
| 01:31.49 | ocuza | thought you might appreciate it |
| 12:46.46 | jsmith | ocuza: Awesome... Photos? |
| 13:56.29 | unum | in a lot of catholic countries *only* the catholic church can marry people. Even if you are Mormon you need to pay the catholic priest to be legally married |
| 13:56.59 | ocuza | like where? |
| 13:57.02 | ocuza | in africa? |
| 13:57.06 | unum | so if a couple are cohabitating the Mormon missionaries will pay the catholic church before batizing them |
| 13:57.11 | unum | Paraguay for example |
| 13:57.19 | ocuza | thats weird |
| 13:57.23 | unum | oops didn't finish |
| 13:57.30 | ocuza | paraguaians love their church i guess |
| 13:57.47 | unum | the missionaries will pay the catholic church to marry them so that they are legally maried other wise the won't baptize them |
| 13:57.57 | ocuza | is that only a mormon thing |
| 13:58.05 | ocuza | or does that apply to muslims and jews in paraguay too? |
| 13:58.13 | ocuza | im pretty sure jews will prefer to day |
| 13:58.14 | ocuza | die |
| 13:58.28 | unum | and then they will have to wait until after they have been legally married for a year before they will can be sealed in the temple |
| 13:58.50 | unum | my understanding is that only the catholic church can perform legally recognized marriages |
| 13:59.08 | ocuza | quaint |
| 14:04.09 | unum | looks like my information on Paraguay may be outdated |
| 14:04.15 | unum | they do have civil marriages |
| 14:04.46 | unum | maybe it's just easier to pay the catholic church to do it |
| 14:05.26 | unum | I do it was a problem at one point in a lot of latin american countries that the catholic church held everybodies life records. birth certificates, death certificates, and marriages certificates |
| 14:05.44 | unum | they were essentially an other branch of the government |
| 14:05.52 | unum | it's weird to think about when you grew up here |
| 14:34.39 | jsmith | unum: Actually, in Paraguay you *can* get a judge to marry you, but it's typically more expensive |
| 14:35.17 | jsmith | helped several couples get married in Paraguay |
| 14:53.25 | unum | that's right that's where you served |
| 14:53.40 | unum | I figured there was a reason they when through the catholic church |
| 15:05.35 | jsmith | Tradition, mostly |
| 16:00.32 | ocuza | i doubt jews and muslims accept baptism |
| 16:00.37 | ocuza | even in they are in paraguay |
| 16:01.23 | ocuza | i find it hard to believe that they dont offer alternative marrige pathways for members of these religions |
| 16:01.38 | unum | as jsmith mentioned they do, it's just more expensive |
| 16:03.00 | ocuza | the poor probably just adhere to their traditional ceremonies and disregard governmental recognition |
| 16:05.10 | unum | I think they just cohabitate |
| 16:06.04 | ocuza | if by cohabitation you mean give into baptism, I highly doubt that |
| 16:06.33 | unum | by cohabitation I mean they just live together |
| 16:07.00 | unum | but I was thinking of the native "catholics" |
| 16:08.42 | unum | I know a missionary who served in argentina and she often had people who wanted to join the mormon church but they had been legally married and were no longer in contact with their husband |
| 16:09.14 | ocuza | are they legall entraped then? |
| 16:09.17 | ocuza | legally |
| 16:09.19 | unum | yep |
| 16:09.27 | unum | can't get a divorce |
| 16:09.49 | ocuza | the judge requires the presence of both people? |
| 16:09.58 | ocuza | and their mutual consent |
| 16:10.04 | unum | and since they can't get divorced they can't marry the person they are currently living with |
| 16:10.28 | unum | I was told they needed the involvement of both I'm not sure the details |
| 16:10.47 | unum | they may just need to be able to serve them of notice |
| 16:10.48 | ocuza | the judge can order one people to showup to court |
| 16:10.55 | ocuza | on* |
| 16:11.03 | unum | if you can find the person |
| 16:11.08 | ocuza | thats the police's jobs |
| 16:11.46 | ocuza | anyways divorce shouldnt require mutual consent |
| 16:12.04 | ocuza | if one party is not interested, they should have the ability to end it |
| 16:16.52 | ocuza | jsmith, here it is: |
| 16:16.52 | ocuza | http://i.imgur.com/yhUJZrn.jpg |
| 16:16.52 | ocuza | http://i.imgur.com/sPi8JZd.jpg |
| 16:17.47 | ocuza | this was gold coming in from california |
| 16:17.59 | ocuza | most of it was turned into coins in california |
| 16:18.36 | ocuza | but some of it went north to oregon and some of it went east to Utah, carried hoem by mormon miners from sacramento and SF |
| 16:20.03 | ocuza | and brigham young ordered to setup a mint so they could turn all this cali-dust into Utah coins |
| 16:24.16 | ocuza | this of course beats the US gov by one year |
| 17:01.55 | Wegg | I had the chance to see/hold one of those gold coins at the Smithsonian in Washington DC ocuza. |
| 17:02.05 | Wegg | at their numismatic collection. |
| 17:02.19 | Wegg | It was in much better condition than this photo. |
| 17:03.08 | Wegg | Gold was always pegged at $20 per oz. back then. |
| 17:03.22 | Wegg | As it should be now. End the Federal Reserve! |
| 17:14.08 | ocuza | Wegg, I would assume they probably have some of the finest samples -- there aren't enough of these left and this is actually considered a wonderful condition |
| 17:16.14 | Wegg | The collection at the Smithsonian is amazing. I got to hold ancient roman coins, Babylonian coins etc. Wealth held within the intrinsic value of the object itself is the way money should be. Not paper or in a computer. |
| 17:17.20 | ocuza | I've never been there. |
| 17:17.31 | ocuza | as for these mormon coins, I know they also issued $10 samples |
| 17:17.35 | ocuza | which are even rarer |
| 17:18.13 | ocuza | the thing is that they didnt produce a lot to begin with an most of it got melted down at some point |
| 17:19.37 | ocuza | Wegg, that would be like going back to pre industrail revolutionary banking |
| 17:19.41 | ocuza | revolution |
| 17:19.54 | ocuza | you're gonna walk around with bags of gold to buy groceries? |
| 17:20.13 | Wegg | No. You would have a debit card. Your money would be in the bank. |
| 17:20.54 | Wegg | but at any time you would be able to exchange that money for hard currency. It was like that for MOST of the United States history. |
| 17:21.26 | ocuza | there isnt enough hard current for that |
| 17:21.31 | ocuza | currency |
| 17:22.06 | Wegg | Nope. Not now. |
| 17:22.13 | ocuza | so people use IOU's etc |
| 17:22.19 | ocuza | its basically the same thing as any form of credit |
| 17:23.44 | Wegg | The ONE time Jesus physically threw his weight around was at the money exchange stations outside of the temple. They were fudging the exchange rates and profiting off of it. |
| 17:24.21 | ocuza | lol |
| 17:24.51 | Wegg | That is what our Federal Reserve does. Since they are not restrained by the physical limitations of commodity base currency. . . they just print as munch money as they want and give it away to whomever they want. Independent of Congress. |
| 17:25.27 | Wegg | http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YTyPGaEsBcw/T0Kd1nS9zJI/AAAAAAAABQw/MhD1cWnfJI8/s1600/Purchasing%2BPower%2Bof%2BU.S.%2BDollar.jpg |
| 17:26.36 | Wegg | Ole Brigham Young had it right. An ounce of Gold = $20. It is even in the US Constitution. |
| 17:27.19 | ocuza | i forgot what the guy's name was |
| 17:27.26 | ocuza | but it wasnt b young |
| 17:28.08 | ocuza | the same dude who forge all the die blanks and engraved them |
| 17:28.14 | ocuza | and selected the designs |
| 17:28.20 | Wegg | John Kay |
| 17:28.29 | ocuza | thats it |
| 17:29.28 | ocuza | and these were the very 1st american pioneer coins struck west of the mississippi |
| 17:29.29 | Wegg | Utah is one of the few states that sees gold as currency. |
| 17:29.37 | Wegg | you can pay your taxes in Gold. |
| 17:30.12 | Wegg | I think that is what makes Bitcoin so exciting. |
| 17:30.14 | ocuza | another cool thing about this coin is its one of the first coins to display a double eagle design |
| 17:30.21 | ocuza | lol |
| 17:30.27 | Wegg | No one can make more. there will only be so many bitcoin out there. |
| 17:30.31 | ocuza | can you pay your taxes in diamonds? |
| 17:30.39 | Wegg | nope |
| 17:30.45 | ocuza | discrimination |
| 17:30.56 | Wegg | Diamonds would make a silly currency. There is no intrinsic value. |
| 17:31.03 | ocuza | ?/ |
| 17:31.07 | ocuza | you must be joking |
| 17:31.24 | ocuza | its used for optics stuff and industrial equipment |
| 17:31.28 | Wegg | Their vale is subjective. |
| 17:31.37 | ocuza | its not subjective |
| 17:32.00 | ocuza | some people may add subjective levels of value to it |
| 17:32.03 | Wegg | An oz of industrial diamonds used in mining equipment is valued far less than an oz of a perfecly cut pure gem used in a wedding ring. |
| 17:32.22 | Wegg | Bug gold is a basic element. |
| 17:32.36 | Wegg | You can't have better gold than gold. |
| 17:33.28 | Wegg | You can refine it to its purest form. . . 99.999% pure. . . and. . . that's what gold coins are. |
| 17:34.21 | ocuza | obviously a coin of gold with history has more value than a lump of gold |
| 17:34.44 | Wegg | oh for sure. |
| 17:35.41 | ocuza | you could add levels of artistic and historical vlaue to gold just as well as diamonds |
| 17:35.57 | Wegg | Today, at current prices, that oz of gold has the same purchasing power as $1,210. |
| 17:36.18 | Wegg | If it were just a lump of gold. No history. |
| 17:36.49 | ocuza | what about copper |
| 17:37.06 | ocuza | or zinc |
| 17:37.09 | Wegg | Inflation caused by printing money devalues all of our money enriching whomever the Federal Reserve wants. Namely Goldman Sacks and Wallstreet etc. |
| 17:37.17 | ocuza | should you be able to pay taxes with amunia? |
| 17:38.24 | Wegg | Copper is a basic element but it is volatile. It will corrode. Gold doesn't. Gold and Silver are perfect for currency. |
| 17:38.44 | ocuza | gold is volatile |
| 17:38.54 | ocuza | its soft |
| 17:39.11 | Wegg | making it easy to form into coins. |
| 17:40.17 | Wegg | Romans used to cheat with their money. They'd clip a bit off of each coin and with the shavings make a new coin. A lot of old Roman coins have clip markings. |
| 17:42.14 | ocuza | indeed |
| 17:43.02 | ocuza | but they would also trade other commodities |
| 17:43.18 | ocuza | they werent completely dependant on gold as currency |
| 17:43.58 | Wegg | They could trade in anything they wanted, but gold and silver were always the default. |
| 17:44.42 | Wegg | It is going back to that. Germany just re-repatriated all of it's gold from the New York federal reserve. |
| 17:45.11 | Wegg | China and India's central banks are shoring up on Gold and Silver. |
| 17:45.27 | ocuza | better learn mandarin |
| 17:46.39 | Wegg | Or we had better learn some lessons and go back to commodity backed currency. |
| 17:47.10 | ocuza | obviously this cannot and will not happen overnight |
| 17:47.29 | Wegg | it should. |
| 17:48.06 | ocuza | in theory, but in practice it would mean a huge recession |
| 17:48.21 | Wegg | why? |
| 17:48.34 | Wegg | http://marketshadows.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Silver-Certificate-v.-Federal-Reserve-Note.jpg |
| 17:48.44 | Wegg | See the difference? |
| 17:49.18 | ocuza | yes i see the differrnce |
| 17:49.44 | Wegg | worked great through most of US history. |
| 17:49.53 | ocuza | because a lot of banks dont have gold in their vaults to back every dollar - this would mean they would immediately collapse along with the entire economy |
| 17:50.49 | Wegg | nah. During the Civil War the US went off the gold standard. Then within a few years after the war, they went back on it. All in a very orderly way. |
| 17:51.01 | ocuza | if real inflation is adjusted for there will be a recession |
| 17:51.04 | ocuza | thats just how it goes |
| 17:51.50 | Wegg | that's a crock of horse poo. all that would happen is deflation. Meaning all our money would have more purchasing power each year vs less. |
| 17:53.45 | Wegg | The federal reserve printing all this money actually creates these boom and bust cycles. They cause more recessions. |
| 17:54.51 | Wegg | Bitcoin is exciting. It has the potential of ending all of that. |
| 17:54.58 | ocuza | the problem with gold is that its beocming worthelss |
| 17:55.06 | Wegg | We will be able to hold wealth. |
| 17:55.12 | Wegg | o.O |
| 17:55.16 | ocuza | you got digital signals |
| 17:55.17 | ocuza | like HDMI |
| 17:55.32 | ocuza | and today signal either arrives in full or it doesnt arrive at all |
| 17:55.37 | Wegg | ahh |
| 17:55.39 | Wegg | yea. |
| 17:55.57 | ocuza | silver is rarer |
| 17:56.01 | Wegg | unless you buy a MONSTER cable. LOL |
| 17:56.01 | ocuza | and platinum is stronger |
| 17:58.13 | ocuza | anyways going back to gold or some kind of other standard would mean that the gov cant fight inflation |
| 17:58.17 | ocuza | or unemployment |
| 17:58.29 | ocuza | by the most common means |
| 17:58.50 | ocuza | also this might cause problems with global business |
| 17:59.23 | Wegg | the definition of inflation is the de-valuation of currency due to more being printed. |
| 18:00.08 | Wegg | The Fed causes inflation. It likes inflation. Why? Because they borrow so much money, that if their loan of $100, 50 years from now is much easier to pay off when they can just print all that money. |
| 18:00.20 | Wegg | it creates mal-investment at an industrial level. |
| 18:00.31 | Wegg | It removes the incentive to save. |
| 18:00.44 | Wegg | to save money in 2015 is a bad idea. |
| 18:00.50 | Wegg | Completely contrary to logic. |
| 18:01.44 | Wegg | Growth based on credit expansion instead of savings, creates booms and busts. |
| 18:05.43 | ocuza | you need a small amount of inflation to encourage spending and investments, to keep the economy humming along and prevent a deflation which will be absolutely devastating to the economy, theres a thing called a deflationary spiral, which was a huge factor in the Great Depression. |
| 18:06.46 | ocuza | deflation causes money rise in value over time - so people stop investing and they slow their spending, because hey why buy a car today when you can buy a car and a new computer next year with the same money? so the economy slows down, business suffer, and eventually you have to start laying off people |
| 18:07.14 | ocuza | so now you have a new set of people who are highly motivated to hold on their money for as long as possible, resulting in even less overall spending, an even more busiensses falling, and even more unemployment.. |
| 18:07.21 | ocuza | enventually the entirey economy grinds to a halt |
| 18:08.16 | Wegg | You are describing keynesion economics. |
| 18:08.32 | Wegg | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics |
| 18:08.51 | Wegg | Where progress is measured in spending. |
| 18:08.56 | Wegg | spend spend spend. |
| 18:11.20 | Wegg | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk |
| 18:11.34 | ocuza | i know what it is |
| 18:11.53 | Wegg | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc This one is funnier. :-) |
| 18:12.04 | Wegg | Keynes vs Hayek. |
| 18:14.07 | ocuza | Great production value, but skewed hard. At first it looks like it's supposed to be an even-handed display of two viewpoints, but it quickly becomes clear that it's meant as an anti-Keynes piece by people trying to promote Hayek |
| 18:14.19 | ocuza | there is a LOT more to the discussion than what's on offer in this video. |
| 18:14.59 | Wegg | its really a "guided" economy vs freedom. |
| 18:15.05 | ocuza | I do forgive it however for making such an effort to make economics aproachable |
| 18:15.49 | Wegg | Ultimate guided economy = Communist Russia. Or. . . Venezuela. |
| 18:16.08 | Wegg | Government mandated prices, rations etc. |
| 18:18.02 | ocuza | you're quickly detriorating to rhetorical hyperboles. |
| 18:18.18 | Wegg | o.O |
| 18:18.33 | Wegg | How so? |
| 18:19.04 | jsmith | Well, for one... Venezuela is a lot less "guided" than you'd imagine... |
| 18:19.26 | Wegg | They set a hard price on Barbie dolls this Christmas. |
| 18:19.40 | Wegg | They are out of Toilet Paper at the moment. |
| 18:19.40 | jsmith | ... the black market (especially in currency) matters more in day-to-day business than the gov't prices |
| 18:19.52 | jsmith | knows -- he's been there a couple of times in the past three years |
| 18:20.09 | jsmith | Actually, toilet paper is coming back quite well |
| 18:20.21 | Wegg | black market = free/more efficient. |
| 18:20.40 | jsmith | Flour, cooking oil, and things like that are still expensive (if you buy it at some stores), or hard to get (if you want the gov't-subsidized prices) |
| 18:20.45 | Wegg | unregulated = better. |
| 18:21.16 | jsmith | That, combined with pretty fluid borders, means it's an interesting place to visit |
| 18:21.32 | Wegg | nods. |
| 18:21.47 | Wegg | two economic ideas competing head to head. |
| 18:21.56 | Wegg | managed vs wild wild west. |
| 18:23.56 | Wegg | Or. . . dare I say it. . . totalitarian vs liberty. |
| 18:25.42 | ocuza | i prefer salma hayek |
| 18:26.32 | Wegg | LOL. She is an attractive woman. :-) |
| 18:27.45 | Wegg | Hard to believe she is almost 50. |
| 18:30.52 | ocuza | anyways the gold standard is bullcrap |
| 18:31.11 | ocuza | we had boombs and busts and recessions and depressions in the 1870s up to the Great depression while we had that standard |
| 18:34.47 | ocuza | the libertarian narrative on the gold standard is fiction |
| 18:35.28 | ocuza | nice thought excercise, but its contradicted by every piece of empirical historical and thripological evidence we have from 1000 economies that dont rely on money for exchange. |
| 18:35.52 | ocuza | it actually started as a credit/debt, followed by virtual currencies and legal tender, followed by coinage, followed by barter |
| 18:36.06 | ocuza | you wouldnt ask your neighbor to exchange 20 chickens for a cow |
| 18:36.15 | ocuza | cause it was unlikely that you would need these things to trade at the same time. |
| 18:36.33 | ocuza | instead you'd ask him for a cow and be indebted for it. then sometime later, your neighbor would ask for something in return. |
| 18:37.08 | ocuza | bartenders dont charge you for your drinks, they run a tab. then every few months, you bring them something nice., |
| 18:39.20 | ocuza | and this creation of debt creates money, and from there we get the markets. you can trade IOUs and exchange it as money, under the promise that you will be owed something. but only while the IOU is still outstanding. if its paid off, then it no longer exists as money. but in traditional societies, debts were rarely "Settled", cause that was a sign of ending future contact. so yes the feds can loan out trillions of dollars from this air, but once the loands |
| 18:39.20 | ocuza | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:39.47 | ocuza | and this is the entire basis of keynesian econ. debt creates money, it stimulates the demands for markets and creates job growth. |
| 18:41.02 | Wegg | debt creates money. . . that's. . . scarry. |
| 18:41.07 | Wegg | scary. |
| 18:42.37 | ocuza | theres nothing new and nefarious about it |
| 18:42.38 | jsmith | Scary, but true... |
| 18:42.47 | jsmith | Look at it this way... |
| 18:42.49 | ocuza | its always been the case |
| 18:42.51 | ocuza | always |
| 18:42.58 | jsmith | Alice goes and puts $100 in the bank |
| 18:43.04 | ocuza | the feds didnt invent this pratice, this practice has been around since the dawn of money |
| 18:43.50 | Wegg | yea banks have been loaning out more money than they had in their coffers for a zillion years. The Fed just. . . refined it. |
| 18:44.07 | Wegg | Hence. . . Jesus flipping money changing tables at the Temple. |
| 18:44.08 | jsmith | Wegg: What makes that different than any other bank? |
| 18:46.46 | Wegg | I see it as theft. My $1 today should be able to buy 1 loaf of bread. In 10 years my $1 should still be able to buy that loaf of bread. But you would be crazy to think that with our current system because of inflation caused by the printing of money. It is a hidden tax that hurts the poor the most. |
| 18:49.08 | Wegg | If I have a certain amount of gold or platinum or silver, that is future proof. It will have the same purchasing power 100 years from now as it does today no matter how much paper money is printed. |
| 18:49.41 | ocuza | not it doesnt because it too fluctuates with supply and demand |
| 18:50.29 | Wegg | https://www.fortressgoldgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/gold-v-us-dollar-1.jpg |
| 18:51.07 | ocuza | gold is just a commodity |
| 18:51.16 | ocuza | its rare and has other properties that make it useful as medium of exchange |
| 18:51.20 | ocuza | but it has little intrinsic value |
| 18:51.36 | ocuza | the demand for it is almsot entirely drive by itse use in jewlery |
| 18:51.38 | Wegg | its intrinsic value is the fact that it is rare in my opinnion. |
| 18:51.40 | Wegg | opinion. |
| 18:51.42 | ocuza | so its a very volatile commodity |
| 18:52.02 | Wegg | bitcoin isn't even a thing. Its just a file on a computer. but it sure can buy a lot of neat stuff. |
| 18:52.08 | ocuza | back when our monetary system was based on it, we would regularly have periods of rampant inflation followed by equally long periods of crushing deflations |
| 18:52.10 | Wegg | why? Because it is rare. |
| 18:53.42 | ocuza | if you dug up a gold nugget one day and then sat on yoru ass for the next 100 years, you could reasonably expect not to lose much value sure - but turns out, thats an extreme edge case in real economy - it snot something you particularly want to optimize for. in real economy you want relative price stability over the short term, several years at a time, the scale at which people actually do their economic planning - and that's a task gold fails spectacular |
| 18:53.42 | ocuza | ly at. |
| 18:53.47 | Wegg | since the inception of the Federal Reserve in 1913, the purchasing power of the dollar has decreased 95%. That is what I'd call rampant inflation that never happened on the gold standard. |
| 18:54.37 | ocuza | in real SHTF scenario the only reason gold would have any value whatsover is people's faith that others will accept it as payment for real useful goods and services |
| 18:54.46 | Wegg | yup |
| 18:54.59 | ocuza | this faith is no more (or no less) tenuous than people's faith today if you present someone with a nice crisp $100 bill, they'll give you lots of goodies in return |
| 18:55.01 | Wegg | just like bitcoin. People's faith in the math. |
| 18:55.09 | Wegg | yup |
| 18:57.34 | ocuza | there is not enough gold for it |
| 18:57.50 | ocuza | if you tried to swap in gold standard now, you'd get massive delation - real class war |
| 18:57.59 | ocuza | with rich people getting killed a la French Revolution style |
| 18:58.37 | Wegg | We wouldn't go back to $20 = 1oz. we'd peg it at $20 = .1 oz. or whatever the prices are at today. |
| 18:59.02 | ocuza | when a bank issues loan they charge intersts. |
| 18:59.12 | Wegg | Yea the rich would no longer get richer off of having government contracts paid for by the printing press. |
| 18:59.22 | Wegg | It would be a true bottom up recovery. |
| 19:00.02 | Wegg | Reagan tried to call it "Trickle down economics". |
| 19:00.15 | Wegg | Not a whole lot trickles down though. |
| 19:00.26 | ocuza | the gap between the gold supply and money supply today is too vast |
| 19:00.43 | Wegg | The wealth gap is pretty measurable and is increasing exponentially as the fed prints more and more money and the government gets more and more involved. |
| 19:00.55 | ocuza | you'd have massive delation |
| 19:01.02 | Wegg | deflation. |
| 19:01.04 | ocuza | it would also be impossible to restart the economy |
| 19:01.14 | ocuza | because loans (with interests) would be impossible |
| 19:01.18 | Wegg | We just saw a massive deflation with the price of Oil. |
| 19:01.20 | ocuza | no bank is going to do interests free loans |
| 19:01.24 | Wegg | is the economy collapsing? |
| 19:01.25 | Wegg | no. |
| 19:01.39 | Wegg | it has just created different opportunities. Things just shifted around. |
| 19:02.17 | romanovic | Printing more currency is like being able to tax the world economy without permission. You devalue the purchasing power of everyone else's currency by miniscule amounts, and pool that purchasing power in your new currency |
| 19:02.22 | Wegg | banks lent money with interest collected long before the Federal Reserve. |
| 19:02.57 | ocuza | and how are you going to pay the gaps on those interest with a fixed supply of gold? |
| 19:03.13 | ocuza | start paying with grains? |
| 19:03.32 | Wegg | you are talking about fiat? Where the bank can lend out more than it has? |
| 19:03.54 | Wegg | Bank has $100 right now. Under current laws, that means they can lend out $4,000. |
| 19:04.03 | Wegg | 40/1 ratio. |
| 19:04.10 | Wegg | that is INSANE> |
| 19:04.25 | Wegg | It should be 1/1 |
| 19:04.34 | Wegg | bank has $100 and it can only lend out $100. |
| 19:05.02 | ocuza | and where are you going to get $100+interest worth out of a limited gold supply? |
| 19:05.21 | Wegg | that is up to the borrower of the money. |
| 19:05.44 | Wegg | if their idea works then they will be able to pay back their loan. If it fails then the bank eats it. |
| 19:06.05 | Wegg | banks then would be more careful, charge higher interest rates etc. |
| 19:06.13 | Wegg | People who save would benefit greatly. |
| 19:06.48 | ocuza | "The total value of all gold ever mined would exceed US$10.1 trillion" |
| 19:06.59 | ocuza | ... |
| 19:07.05 | Wegg | k |
| 19:07.16 | ocuza | the total value of all gold mined throughout history is less than one year's worth of the total GDP |
| 19:07.22 | unum | we had massive deflation with homs and it wrecked the economy |
| 19:07.29 | unum | homes |
| 19:07.58 | ocuza | Wegg, going to the gold standard wipes 5 trillion dollars off the books, if we had all the gold in history. Who is that going to come from? Your IRA? Your house? |
| 19:08.10 | Wegg | no. . . we had a massive bubble cause by artificially low interest rates driving up the prices of homes which cause the bubble to burst when people figured out it was crazy. |
| 19:08.38 | unum | Wegg: and the average person lost a lot of money they thought they had |
| 19:08.41 | Wegg | ocuza, where does the money come from now? The fed just prints it out of thin air. |
| 19:08.54 | unum | Wegg: the fed does not print money |
| 19:08.58 | Wegg | unum, it sucked. and I blame the money printers |
| 19:09.03 | unum | I don't know why people keep saying that |
| 19:09.12 | unum | the fed can not print money |
| 19:09.17 | Wegg | o.O |
| 19:09.18 | Wegg | no? |
| 19:09.20 | unum | they don't own any printing presses |
| 19:09.21 | unum | no |
| 19:09.23 | unum | they can't print it |
| 19:09.37 | Wegg | semantics. |
| 19:09.52 | unum | not really |
| 19:10.23 | unum | the department of the treasury prints the money |
| 19:11.08 | unum | they then transfer it to the federal reserve system as debt owed to the federal reserve |
| 19:11.11 | ocuza | having control over your money supply is a good thing Wegg , look at greece |
| 19:11.32 | Wegg | how is greece a good thing? |
| 19:11.41 | ocuza | basically Wegg is suggesting we surrender our cointrol over our money tuspply to mining corporation overlords -- bad idea -- see 14th century spain |
| 19:11.48 | unum | the federal reserve banks then lend that money to other banks |
| 19:11.59 | unum | or they use the money to purchase treasury bonds.... |
| 19:12.10 | ocuza | Wegg, thats an exaxemple of what can happen when you dont have control over your money supply |
| 19:12.41 | ocuza | i meant 16th century spain |
| 19:14.02 | ocuza | the problem is that most people advocating gold standrd usually havent the slightest clue of what they are talking about, and are convinced that fractional-reserve banking is some sort of conspiracy that hte federal reserve is out to get them |
| 19:14.12 | ocuza | there is no good reason to return to the gold standard. |
| 19:14.51 | ocuza | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_Shock |
| 19:14.59 | Wegg | ocuza, that sort of stuff happens all the time. Artificial values are given to things like Diamonds through restricting supply/demand. If you were to switch to a commodity backed free market economy, if someone like. . . all the miners started to restrict supply, consumers would just switch to a currency that works better. Like jsmith's example of what is happening in Venezuela with the black market. |
| 19:16.02 | Wegg | Why gold? Why not Bitcoin? Silver? Platinum? Whatever you feel like? |
| 19:16.16 | Wegg | whatever people have the most faith in. |
| 19:16.25 | Wegg | Right now that is illegal. |
| 19:16.39 | romanovic | I don't think the "gold standard" is central to people's disagreement on printing fiat currency. I think it is more about printing new currency in irresponsible quantities, with the knowledge that it isn't backed up by any valuable asset |
| 19:17.09 | ocuza | so what sort of gold standard would we go back to? |
| 19:17.13 | ocuza | bretton woods failed |
| 19:17.25 | ocuza | and pre WW1 gold standards were replaced for the sole reason that they dont work |
| 19:17.45 | unum | romanovic: I think the key work is "irresponsible quantities" |
| 19:18.00 | ocuza | read about the Free Silver movement in the late 1800s in the US to see how the gold standard isnt the panacea gold bugs expound |
| 19:18.07 | unum | the board of governors has a goal of mininium two percent inflation per year |
| 19:18.19 | romanovic | yes, i don't know if economists put it that way, but its a subjective argument |
| 19:18.41 | unum | I think most economists recognize a need for inflation |
| 19:18.48 | unum | but the ideal target may be debated |
| 19:19.10 | ocuza | yep they do |
| 19:19.17 | ocuza | negative inflation is a disaster for an economy |
| 19:19.33 | Wegg | ocuza, they failed because they didn't work for government expansion. They worked great for the every day man. |
| 19:20.01 | unum | Wegg: you're not winning me over with that |
| 19:20.09 | ocuza | if you have a dollar, in a low-inflation scneartio you can invest it and risk losing it but it might gain value, you can put it in bank and get a little interest to balance out inflation but you probably wont lose it, or you can put it under your mattress and it will gradually lose mroe of its buying power |
| 19:20.31 | Wegg | ocuza, Gold and silver were artificially pegged in price. Which caused major problems. |
| 19:20.32 | ocuza | so you're encouraged to save in banks and investing your money will go into the wider economy and circulate. |
| 19:21.10 | unum | Wegg: is there a time and place that you would claim had an ideal monetary system? |
| 19:21.23 | Wegg | Roman gold standard. |
| 19:21.34 | ocuza | banks make safe loans hedged by spreading them out between a lot of people (ideally, anwyays - of course the financial crash showed that wasnt always true) and investments put money into businesses at the risk of the business failing, but either way the oney keeps circulating around |
| 19:21.49 | Wegg | ocuza, all of that happened on the gold standard. |
| 19:21.55 | Wegg | you don't need fiat for that. |
| 19:22.27 | Wegg | you could get a loan from a bank before the Federal Reserve was even thought of. |
| 19:23.14 | ocuza | when you got deflation, if you stick it under the mattress, it will gain value with no risk of losing it; if you give it to a bank, they might have to charge you to hold onto it, because nobody would borrow money from a bank then unless the interest rates were nearly zero or negative, and investing is pointlessly risky since you risk losing all, so everywone will stick their money under their mattresses too, which mean there isnt any money avail to spend a |
| 19:23.14 | ocuza | nywhere |
| 19:23.22 | Wegg | bitish standard was lb sterling. One british pound was backed by a pound of silver. |
| 19:23.32 | ocuza | which will just increase the value of money relative to goods, and encourage people to take their money OUT of the economy |
| 19:23.45 | ocuza | and then the system collapses |
| 19:24.34 | Wegg | the banking industry might collapse but the everyday man would be very happy because their purchasing power just increased. I was quite happy when Gas was $1.80 a few months ago. |
| 19:24.45 | Wegg | Were the oil and gas companies happy? No. |
| 19:24.55 | Wegg | Did everything collapse? No. |
| 19:25.13 | Wegg | some things go up, some things go down. It is organic. |
| 19:25.18 | Wegg | It doesn't need to be managed. |
| 19:25.53 | Wegg | the very idea that you can have an overseer to guide the economy leads to cronyism. |
| 19:26.23 | Wegg | Obama gave to all his favorite pet energy projects. Bush/Chaney to all their military projects etc. |
| 19:27.07 | unum | commodities go up and down when housing goes down |
| 19:27.11 | unum | thing do collapse |
| 19:27.22 | unum | should have been some puncation in there |
| 19:27.28 | Wegg | he he |
| 19:27.52 | unum | fluxuations among commodities are ok, but if you see a major decline in home values you have a recession |
| 19:28.04 | unum | was the everyday work ok during the great depression? |
| 19:28.15 | Wegg | When the federal reserve announces that interest rates MIGHT go up. . . Wallstreet suffers. Why is that? No more cheap money. |
| 19:28.17 | unum | was the everyday worker ok during the post civil war depression? |
| 19:28.22 | romanovic | proposes a new currency backed by bomb/survival shelters, food storage, access to natural water sources, farms and livestock |
| 19:28.36 | unum | Wegg: yep it's all intentional, they trying to prevent bubbles |
| 19:28.39 | romanovic | redeem your dollars for food and shelter! |
| 19:28.58 | Wegg | unum, you don't see skyrocketing housing prices as bubbles? |
| 19:29.18 | unum | Wegg: the fed failed in their job several years ago, I agree |
| 19:29.40 | unum | but you fix the problem by replacing the people not going back to a system that did nothing to protect us |
| 19:29.45 | Wegg | They have failed astronomically since it's inception. It is a flawed premise. |
| 19:30.09 | Wegg | has the fed protected "us"? |
| 19:30.20 | unum | I'd say they've managed it pretty well since the great depression |
| 19:30.23 | Wegg | The only people I see it protect are Goldman Sacks. |
| 19:30.26 | unum | with a few exceptions |
| 19:31.01 | Wegg | In the Carter/Reagan era, when there was a depression, interest rates shot up. |
| 19:31.19 | Wegg | I remember getting 12% interest in my savings account back then. |
| 19:31.33 | unum | that was to counter the massive inflation that carter was intentionally creating |
| 19:31.37 | Wegg | and things eventually got better. |
| 19:31.43 | unum | in order to help poor pay down debts |
| 19:31.49 | unum | including the federal government |
| 19:31.52 | Wegg | yup |
| 19:32.29 | Wegg | So the guy managing it during that era understood that printing more money was counter to a recovery. |
| 19:32.39 | Wegg | NOW. . . interest rates are at almost 0%. |
| 19:32.49 | Wegg | in some countries it is negative. |
| 19:33.02 | Wegg | You get money taken OUT of your bank account every month. |
| 19:33.08 | Wegg | That is very very very wrong. |
| 19:33.14 | unum | they're trying to create an inflation of around 2% |
| 19:33.46 | Wegg | which only helps government/companies/huge borrowers. Not the every day man. |
| 19:35.54 | Wegg | Other countries manage their monitary supply better. Australia did well. They shot their interest rates up to almost 15% during the last global economic crisis. And bounced back rather quickly. But in a true free market, each bank would set their own interest rate. There would be economic darwinism. Banks that wouldn't get the balance right would fail. |
| 19:36.14 | unum | we tried that for a while |
| 19:36.22 | unum | we abbandoned it for a reason |
| 19:36.26 | Wegg | when was that? |
| 19:36.48 | unum | prior to 1911 |
| 19:37.10 | Wegg | that was the United State's greatest period of growth. |
| 19:37.13 | unum | actually I think the interest rate stuff started under eccles during the great depression |
| 19:37.33 | unum | Wegg: every chart I look at clearly indicates the opposite |
| 19:37.45 | Wegg | whuh? |
| 19:37.52 | unum | that the GDP of US is massively higher now than it was prior to 1911 |
| 19:37.57 | Wegg | 1700 - 1900? |
| 19:38.05 | unum | yes |
| 19:38.15 | unum | very slow growth compared to what came after |
| 19:38.57 | Wegg | hmm |
| 19:39.01 | unum | but that's true of every country |
| 19:39.06 | unum | because of industrialization |
| 19:39.06 | Wegg | and you are attributing that to a managed economy? |
| 19:39.38 | unum | no I'm just saying your a wrong in claiming the US's greatest period of growth was prior to the creation of the federal reserve |
| 19:39.42 | Wegg | compared to the rest of the world between 1700 and 1900. . . I think the United States went from nothing to THE economic super power. |
| 19:40.44 | unum | that was mostly after wwII |
| 19:46.57 | Wegg | hard to decode that. |
| 19:47.06 | Wegg | http://www.historytoday.com/kathleen-burk/money-and-power-america-and-europe-20th-century |
| 19:47.35 | Wegg | you have to unravel private wealth/power from government wealth/power. |
| 19:50.10 | Wegg | One thing I know for sure. . . is that it would be pretty damn hard to start a war without the ability for government to divert it's government bonds to the military industrial complex without any representative government holding it back. |
| 19:50.26 | Wegg | I'd want the Federal Reserve to end just far that alone. |
| 19:55.33 | Wegg | My favorite bumper sticker. http://tinyurl.com/kt7kcca |
| 19:59.31 | unum | it also be hard to fight a war that someone else started with out the ability to raise money quickly |
| 20:01.37 | Wegg | I don't know that that has been the case for a long long time. |
| 20:03.53 | unum | that what has been the case? |
| 20:04.10 | unum | that it's hard to fight a war that someone else started? or that someone else would start a war? |
| 20:04.34 | Wegg | that someone started a war that actually threatened the security of our border. |
| 20:04.46 | unum | well ya that's true |
| 20:04.58 | Wegg | Or border has somehow morphed into "national interest". |
| 20:05.04 | Wegg | Which = empire. |
| 20:05.11 | unum | ther's something we could agree on |
| 20:05.28 | unum | but elinating the fed doesn't elininate the ability to bond |
| 20:05.37 | unum | they were doing that before we were even a country |
| 20:05.47 | Wegg | cut that ability off at the source, make war something that can only be declared by an act of congress and I think the world would be a much safer place. |
| 20:06.06 | Wegg | it required people's buy in. |
| 20:06.29 | unum | tenanicly that's stil true, also congress has to reauthorize the funding every so often |
| 20:06.36 | unum | forgot party of the constitution!!! |
| 20:06.38 | Wegg | that is what a representative government gives use. The ability to reign in that over use of power. |
| 20:07.23 | unum | two years |
| 20:07.40 | unum | no military action can be funded for more than two years at a time |
| 20:07.53 | unum | the problem is your congressman doesn't really care what you think |
| 20:08.10 | Wegg | nope. |
| 20:08.17 | Wegg | Cause they distract us with non issues. |
| 20:08.45 | unum | what would you say are non issues? |
| 20:09.02 | Wegg | 2nd amendment, reproductive rights, definition or marriage etc. |
| 20:09.52 | Wegg | people get all heated up and debate those issues. . . when we are dropping bombs from drones on brown people on the other side of the world and wondering why they hate us. |
| 20:11.34 | unum | I think it's very telling that there was very little differation between the two major party candidates on foreign policy |
| 20:11.45 | Wegg | yup |
| 20:11.56 | Wegg | we don't have two parties. It's just two war parties. |
| 20:12.00 | unum | and Rand paul is already being attacked for being isolationist on the day he announces |
| 20:12.48 | Wegg | his proposed budget from a week or so ago actually funded the pentagon more than any of the other conservatives that are said to be considering running. |
| 20:13.10 | Wegg | which. . . is a major turn off for me but at least his was a balanced budget proposal. |
| 20:14.06 | Wegg | Can't make my mind up about Rand. |
| 20:15.35 | unum | he was actually gutting the other department like they all claim they want to do |
| 20:15.37 | unum | but won't |
| 20:15.53 | Wegg | yup |
| 20:16.18 | unum | that budget was the beginning of his move away from isolanism as he tries raise money and support |
| 20:17.24 | Wegg | Rand did this fake pintrest account for Hillary Clinton that I thought was very distasteful. Degrading her gender. Depicting her as being super excited to pick out the new color of the drapes in the White House. (groan) |
| 20:17.58 | Wegg | I think non-intervention is a blood good idea. |
| 20:18.49 | unum | ya that was bad |
| 20:18.51 | Wegg | Rand wants the war powers to go back to a time when Congress was much more involved which is a step in the right direction but still a lot more Neo-Con than I'm comfortable with. |
| 20:22.28 | ocuza | Wegg, not sure if thats just chauvinism or does the color of Obamas drapes bothers him |
| 20:22.53 | Wegg | I think his campaign staff are full of a lot of. . . machismo. |
| 20:23.10 | Wegg | He needs to nix that real quick. |
| 20:23.41 | Wegg | He needs to hear a few unrighteous dominion talks. :-) |
| 20:25.10 | Wegg | Someone on my Facebook news feed was all about promoting Ted Cruz in Utah. Wow. |
| 20:25.37 | ocuza | its not just his staffer, he hismelf famously said that if we were all Christians, we wouldn't need laws. |
| 20:25.45 | ocuza | thats a dumb statement |
| 20:25.53 | ocuza | he keeps flip flopping on Israel. |
| 20:26.10 | ocuza | he said he would like to stop foreign aid to every country, but then claimed he never said so about Israel |
| 20:26.11 | Wegg | yea he is walking a fine line on Isreal. |
| 20:26.36 | Wegg | stopping all aid sounds good to me. |
| 20:26.50 | Wegg | I have seen a lot of TED talks about how that Aid is used. |
| 20:26.51 | jsmith | Doesn't sound very Christian to me |
| 20:27.00 | jsmith | ducks and hides |
| 20:27.02 | ocuza | if I understand correctly - his most current stance is removing aid funding to country's that dont like us |
| 20:27.06 | ocuza | aka pakistan |
| 20:27.09 | Wegg | rarely does it ever reach it's intended recipient. |
| 20:27.45 | unum | my understanding is that it rarely leaves the country |
| 20:27.45 | ocuza | hes also pro life, vehemently,.. and anti-gay |
| 20:27.49 | ocuza | anti-gay marriage |
| 20:28.02 | unum | ocuza: are you talk cruz or paul? |
| 20:28.07 | ocuza | paul |
| 20:28.12 | unum | why can't I finish typing words? |
| 20:28.22 | unum | well those two things will get him through to the end |
| 20:28.37 | unum | being isolationist will kill him in the primaries |
| 20:28.37 | Wegg | Paul = remove the government from Marriage. I'm all for that. |
| 20:28.43 | Wegg | Cruz is anti-gay. |
| 20:28.44 | ocuza | his pro life and anti gay marriage stances would be a deal breaker for liberals |
| 20:28.58 | unum | ocuza: yes but so will the R next to his name |
| 20:29.58 | ocuza | im talking about republicans |
| 20:30.22 | Wegg | ocuza, I think he has been doing all the right things to attract liberals. Especially when he correctly points at the discriminating implementation of things like the war on drugs, education etc. |
| 20:30.41 | Wegg | Rand is not your typical Republican. |
| 20:30.53 | ocuza | still those things I mentioned would be a dealbreaker |
| 20:31.02 | unum | I don't know many liberal republicans |
| 20:32.09 | unum | I know libertarian republicans who agree who liberal on civil liberties |
| 20:32.09 | Wegg | Rand = Pro Life for sure. But Gay Marriage? I think liberals would like his position on that. ie. get government out of the dictionary business. |
| 20:32.11 | ocuza | have you seen paul's campaign launch? |
| 20:32.26 | Wegg | no |
| 20:32.31 | Wegg | googles. |
| 20:32.39 | ocuza | http://www.politico.com/story/2015/04/rand-paul-2016-campaign-launch-116723.html?hp=t3_r |
| 20:33.37 | ocuza | i didnt know he was an ophthalmologist |
| 20:34.09 | Wegg | Rand Paul launches 2016 bid with attack on GOP |
| 20:34.09 | Wegg | Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/04/rand-paul-2016-campaign-launch-116723.html#ixzz3WeqA8Xm2 |
| 20:34.15 | Wegg | oops sorry. |
| 20:34.24 | Wegg | attack on GOP. Awesome |
| 20:34.30 | Wegg | he has my attention. :-) |
| 20:34.34 | ocuza | politico are shits like that with promoting their URLs |
| 20:36.45 | ocuza | "She So far, Paul is trailing in the polls behind both establishment candidates and those considered long shots. A Fox News poll from last week showed Paul pulling 9 percent of the vote among likely GOP voters, behind Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker at 15 percent, former Florida Gov. Bush at 12 percent, neurosurgeon Ben Carson at 11 percent, and former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee and Cruz at 10 percent" |
| 20:38.36 | ocuza | "Two of the first speakers of the event were Former Rep. J.C. Watts and Pastor J.D. Williams ânotable figures in the African-American community. |
| 20:38.36 | ocuza | Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/04/rand-paul-2016-campaign-launch-116723.html#ixzz3WerAo4cl |
| 20:38.36 | ocuza | " |
| 20:38.39 | ocuza | oops |
| 20:39.46 | ocuza | "Paul also addressed head-on an area that has at times alienated both him and his father - foreign policy. On Tuesday, he struck a delicate balance, suggesting that heâd project military strength, but conveying that he is more wary of intervention than other Republican contenders" |
| 20:44.02 | unum | it then goes on to explain that someone bought a $1 million worth of advertising to point out that he doesn't want war with Iran |
| 20:44.04 | Wegg | a very pragmatic position. |
| 20:44.06 | Wegg | I like him. |
| 20:45.02 | unum | I wish the democrats would run anbody but hillary |
| 20:45.34 | Wegg | Dennis Kcinich would be awesome. |
| 20:48.49 | unum | you do like your isolationist don't you? |
| 20:49.02 | unum | I have heard much about him since 2004 |
| 20:49.14 | unum | I wouldn't mind seeing Dean come back |
| 20:49.16 | Wegg | non-interventionists. |
| 20:49.30 | Wegg | Big difference. |
| 20:50.26 | unum | recently read a blog post promoting Senator Mccaskill not sure she's considering it |
| 20:51.32 | Wegg | I like the Green Party candidate. Jill Stein. |
| 20:54.23 | ocuza | unum, anybody but hillary could lose them the presidency |
| 20:54.38 | ocuza | http://www.politico.com/story/2015/03/sheldon-adelson-possible-gop-presidential-candidates-116150.html |
| 20:54.40 | ocuza | read this ^ |
| 20:55.19 | ocuza | the guy has his own primaries? |
| 20:55.36 | ocuza | is it like miss america contest? |
| 20:57.35 | ocuza | and the winner is whoever shelly thinks supports israel the most. |
| 20:58.54 | Wegg | I don't think Rand went to that. |
| 20:58.56 | Wegg | did he? |
| 20:59.36 | ocuza | we dont know |
| 20:59.38 | ocuza | http://www.politico.com/story/2015/04/rand-paul-foreign-policy-strategy-116737.html?ml=tb |
| 20:59.42 | ocuza | this seems relevant |
| 20:59.48 | Wegg | they met in Washington. |
| 20:59.50 | Wegg | http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/04/politics/rand-paul-adelson-2016-election/index.html |
| 21:00.14 | ocuza | read that last link that I just posted |
| 21:00.51 | Wegg | cnn. . . blech. |
| 21:03.09 | unum | ocuza: I think Hillary's more likely to lose the presidency than a new face |
| 21:03.18 | unum | her unfavorables are really high |
| 21:03.26 | unum | too much baggage to have to defend |
| 21:03.37 | ocuza | so does mcdonalds |
| 21:03.40 | ocuza | people still eat it |
| 21:03.43 | ocuza | cause its a brandname |
| 21:04.41 | Wegg | women will vote for her. |
| 21:04.57 | unum | lots of brands have had to fold because of self sabatoge |
| 21:05.01 | ocuza | also she seems far more experienced than anyone else |
| 21:05.11 | Wegg | And Democrats will vote for "anyone but a Republican". |
| 21:05.33 | ocuza | the GOP strongest runnerup vs Hillary is Jeb bush |
| 21:05.39 | ocuza | and even he doesnt really have a good chance |
| 21:05.40 | unum | when democrats lose it's usually because of enthusiam gap |
| 21:05.54 | Wegg | she sure did screw up on Libya. And the e-mail server. . . sheesh. |
| 21:06.14 | unum | democrats need a candidate that can motivate certain groups to get out and vote |
| 21:07.06 | unum | minorities and younger voters turned out for Obama, I don't know if Hillary wil motivate those same groups |
| 21:07.06 | ocuza | im sorry but I dont think the GOP has any chance |
| 21:07.14 | ocuza | they cant even control their own house and agree over a budget |
| 21:07.21 | ocuza | their reign over the house has been far from impressive. |
| 21:07.36 | Wegg | Obama isn't exactly winning popularity contests. |
| 21:07.41 | unum | ya they are very divided, except when it comes to hating democrats |
| 21:07.49 | ocuza | you got hawks fighting fiscal hardliners and the GOP core having to depend on bipartisan cooperation |
| 21:08.10 | ocuza | to pass its own freaking budget |
| 21:08.10 | unum | but republicans have less trouble motivating their people |
| 21:08.14 | ocuza | its embarassing |
| 21:09.19 | unum | mostly because all their people are old and having nothing to do after they pick up their social security check |
| 21:09.25 | Wegg | its intentional ocuza. If you have voted for a guy who will go in and fight for smaller government, and they stonewall anything that increases the role of government. . . then you are happy you voted for that guy. |
| 21:09.30 | ocuza | Bohener and the rest of them has a few months left to try and turn things around |
| 21:09.36 | ocuza | not sure if they have anything under their sleeve |
| 21:10.11 | Wegg | do nothing congress = perfect. |
| 21:10.13 | ocuza | Wegg, intentional by whom ? the GOP core wants this budget passed - these people are stonewalling their own efforts |
| 21:10.43 | ocuza | and i bet the budget will pass eventually |
| 21:10.44 | unum | Wegg: stonewalling forces the republican leadership to make concessions to the democrats |
| 21:11.10 | unum | the small government republicans have done a lot for the benefit of the democratic parties goals |
| 21:11.35 | Wegg | hmm. Not. . . sure I follow. |
| 21:11.44 | Wegg | sorry. |
| 21:12.13 | unum | the budget is going to get passed. The question is who's going to write the budget the republican party by itself, or the republican party and moderate democrats |
| 21:12.29 | unum | I should say moderate republicans and moderate democrats |
| 21:12.46 | Wegg | disgusts me a bit that military spending is going through the roof again. Tanks the army doesn't need. . . F-22 fighter planes with $400,000 helmets that can't even fly in the rain. . . |
| 21:12.47 | Wegg | grr. |
| 21:13.16 | ocuza | what are they even arguign about? the republican leadership wants to boost defense spending by 20 billion without any spending cuts |
| 21:13.23 | unum | you can't get elected where I'm from with out supporting that stuff |
| 21:13.29 | ocuza | trying to break some stalemate between fiscal hardlienrs and defense hawks |
| 21:13.42 | Wegg | that's what I hate. |
| 21:13.58 | Wegg | both parties are defense hawks. Or offense hawks. |
| 21:14.07 | Wegg | And we are no safer than we were before 9/11 |
| 21:14.25 | ocuza | Wegg, every budget - our budget, the senate's budget when they get one done, the president's budget - are the opening position in negotiations .. so if you look at it that way, obviously you want to bring your side together |
| 21:14.27 | unum | it's kind of ironic. I'm the lone liberal in the family. Guess how many of my "small government" siblings work for the federal government |
| 21:14.44 | Wegg | We just threw trillions of dollars at it and got. . . what. . . ISIS. . . who are using OUR equipment against us!?! Bloody brilliant. |
| 21:14.44 | unum | and vote for the republican party so that they'll maintain/increase defense spending |
| 21:15.19 | Wegg | there is nothing small about the Republican party. |
| 21:15.27 | ocuza | Wegg, why do you think Boehner had to lock arms with Pelosi, to address the so called "doc-fix" ? |
| 21:15.33 | unum | then of course there's my job...... |
| 21:15.39 | Wegg | what's your job? |
| 21:15.41 | unum | about time they fixed that |
| 21:16.07 | romanovic | Well that's the hard part about defence spending isn't it... you want to boost readiness, but the measure of success is that nothing happens, and citizens can go about their lives as usual |
| 21:16.32 | unum | I'll just say if you go to my employers web site you'll find a link to these guys : http://pos.org/clients/campaigns/ |
| 21:16.37 | unum | I write payroll software |
| 21:16.43 | unum | actually today I upgraded the jabber server |
| 21:16.46 | Wegg | the best presidents are the ones where very little happens. |
| 21:16.49 | Wegg | the boring ones. |
| 21:17.00 | unum | accidently killed group chat capibility didn't know anyone was using |
| 21:17.09 | unum | I should say time card not payroll |
| 21:17.47 | Wegg | payroll software for politial machines. |
| 21:17.49 | Wegg | LOL |
| 21:17.50 | Wegg | classic. |
| 21:17.54 | Wegg | bet you'd have some dirt. |
| 21:17.58 | ocuza | i think the senate budget committee just adopted an amendment from lindsey graham who is a R from SC, adding 38 billion usd in emergency war spending |
| 21:18.07 | unum | we run call centers for public opinion polls |
| 21:18.15 | unum | I don't work directly for any campaign |
| 21:18.16 | ocuza | they are hoping this will quiet down the military hawks without alienating the fiscal conservatives too much |
| 21:19.28 | Wegg | I loved Robert Heinlein's approach to voting/government. Only those who have fraught in a war get to vote on if we go to war. They are the only ones granted full citizenship. |
| 21:19.44 | ocuza | can I fix it? |
| 21:19.57 | ocuza | only those who are supposed to partake in war can vote on wehther THEY go to war or not. |
| 21:20.32 | Wegg | I like that. |
| 21:20.35 | Wegg | I'd vote for that. |
| 21:21.26 | ocuza | I'd vote for Hillary |
| 21:21.51 | Wegg | If it was Hillary vs. Jeb I'd vote Hillary. |
| 21:22.01 | Wegg | But Hillary vs Rand, Rand wins. |
| 21:22.05 | unum | I might end up voting mickey mouse in that case |
| 21:22.08 | ocuza | be realistic |
| 21:22.09 | unum | hillary vs jeb |
| 21:22.23 | ocuza | hillary vs jeb is the most probable scenario |
| 21:22.38 | ocuza | followed by possibly Hillary Vs Walker |
| 21:22.51 | Wegg | Long live the Oligarchy |
| 21:23.15 | Wegg | I think Rand has a very realistic chance looking at the polls. |
| 21:23.23 | ocuza | I think Ted Cruz has better chances than Rand |
| 21:23.30 | ocuza | and cruz is a nutjob and a joke |
| 21:25.11 | Wegg | Cruz voted for the patriot act. His proposed budget was not balanced in any way. I don't know who he is appealing too but it sure isn't small government conservatives. |
| 21:25.26 | ocuza | conservative voters |
| 21:25.38 | ocuza | evangelicals |
| 21:25.48 | ocuza | he will try to win their support |
| 21:25.50 | Wegg | a dying breed. |
| 21:27.40 | ocuza | they still play critical role in early primary states |
| 21:28.20 | ocuza | I dont know if you saw his launch at Liberty University, a baptist school, but it was loaded with references to God and faith |
| 21:28.38 | ocuza | and personal stories about how his dad left home and how he found his redemption through jesus |
| 21:29.09 | Wegg | Did you see the group of students wearing Rand Paul shirts in the audience? |
| 21:29.10 | unum | the school he made his announcement from teaches the evolution isn't real |
| 21:29.25 | unum | they also required students to be there or be fined |
| 21:29.47 | ocuza | basically his strategy is to become a favorite of conservatives and evangelicals and then maybe emerge as an alternative to an establishment front-runner like Bush |
| 21:29.55 | Wegg | Liberty university. . . where students are required to attend. I don't think they understand what "Liberty" means. |
| 21:30.33 | unum | his announcment was part of a regular series that students are expected to attend or they are find $10 |
| 21:30.41 | unum | there's a big article on snopes about it |
| 21:30.52 | ocuza | and he also spoke highly of Israel of course. |
| 21:30.56 | ocuza | ensuring that Shelly support |
| 21:31.07 | ocuza | basically it could be either Cruz or Walker to win conservative support |
| 21:31.21 | Wegg | http://a.abcnews.com/images/Politics/ABC_cruz_announcement_rand_paul_shirts_jtm_150323_16x9_992.jpg |
| 21:31.40 | ocuza | unum, Yeah I heard. |
| 21:31.51 | Wegg | I kind of like Mike Lee. |
| 21:31.56 | Wegg | I went to High School with him. |
| 21:32.04 | ocuza | unum, this is a school founded by Jerry Falwell... |
| 21:32.07 | ocuza | so I'm not surprised. |
| 21:33.03 | ocuza | but the idea was that it also allowed him to present himself as a tea party figure -- the name of the school "Liberty"... |
| 21:33.19 | ocuza | he's kinda the underdog in a crowded field of republican hopefuls |
| 21:33.50 | Wegg | I don't have much respect for him. |
| 21:34.38 | ocuza | me neither |
| 21:34.42 | ocuza | but you cant deny his political rise |
| 21:34.51 | ocuza | its been pretty meteoric |
| 21:35.58 | Wegg | Walker is at 20%, then Cruz at 16%. |
| 21:36.00 | Wegg | meh |
| 21:36.03 | ocuza | and he earned himself during his short tenure in senate to cut a reputation as a steadfast conservative an d maverick thats willing to take an obstructionist position |
| 21:36.32 | Wegg | I think Democrats would love for him to be opposite Hillary. |
| 21:36.44 | Wegg | Cause you could drive trucks through his logic gaps. |
| 21:37.16 | ocuza | forget about democrats |
| 21:37.28 | ocuza | republicans havet shied away from criticizing him |
| 21:37.47 | ocuza | santorum, perry, graham, etc -- they all jabbed him publicly in the past |
| 21:37.52 | ocuza | even before he was officially running |
| 21:38.30 | Wegg | Those are the core Neo-Cons. |
| 21:38.41 | Wegg | With McCain as their granddaddy. |
| 21:40.08 | Wegg | I want Edward Snowden to run. |
| 21:40.15 | Wegg | I'd vote for him. :-) |
| 22:16.54 | unum | I happened to come across this just now: |
| 22:16.56 | unum | http://www.mormonpress.com/plenty_of_reasons_i_m_not_a_ron_paul_libertarian |
| 22:17.01 | unum | seemed relevant |
| 22:21.00 | Wegg | I read the Creature from Jekyll Island. I'm convinced that's a big power grab by bankers. Ron Paul doesn't promote going back to the gold standard. . . he promotes letting the market decide on currency. Meh. This guy is off. |
| 22:21.11 | Wegg | sorry |
| 22:21.47 | Wegg | it's Ron Paul through the lens of a liberal. |
| 22:22.32 | Wegg | Free markets did NOT cause the great depression. |
| 22:22.39 | Wegg | oh geez I can't read this. |
| 22:22.40 | Wegg | sorry |
| 22:23.36 | Wegg | I HATE Ron Paul zealots and their 9/11 conspiracies. That stuff drives me crazy. The "inside job" stuff. . . someone planted bombs in the twin towers. . . |
| 22:23.41 | Wegg | idiots. |
| 22:24.12 | Wegg | and then the "I won't vaccinate my kids" Ron Paul supporters. . . (Groan) |
| 22:25.27 | Wegg | Oh my favorite are the ones that are convinced that con-trails are governments spraying mind control chemicals on us. |
| 22:25.56 | Wegg | All those Ron Paul supporters can just . . . go away please. |
| 22:27.11 | Wegg | http://www.amazon.com/The-Creature-Jekyll-Island-Federal/dp/091298645X |
