| 00:09.08 | *** join/##lds joshontheweb (~joshonthe@c-98-202-95-137.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 05:12.11 | *** join/##lds infobot_ (ibot@rikers.org) |
| 05:12.11 | *** topic/##lds is Unofficial discussion about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, ie: Mormon http://lds.org http://mormon.org http://tech.lds.org http://tech.lds.org/forum http://familysearch.org | This channel is logged publicly on http://infobot.rikers.org/%23%23lds/ | See also #utah and #ldstech |
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| 10:02.13 | *** join/##lds resplin_ (~richard@greendragon.fttp.xmission.com) |
| 14:47.17 | *** join/##lds wad (~wad@76.8.195.82) |
| 15:51.09 | Wegg | not much ever said in here. |
| 15:51.12 | Wegg | (sigh) |
| 16:10.46 | jsmith | Too little, I agree |
| 16:11.12 | jsmith | We should come up with a controversial topic, and maybe that'll get more discussion |
| 16:11.38 | jsmith | Unfortunately, I'm on the road this week, so I don't have much free time to discuss controversial topics |
| 16:24.35 | Wegg | Maybe something to go along with the priesthood lesson? |
| 16:25.12 | jsmith | I'm in Young Men's, so we have different lessons |
| 16:25.20 | jsmith | But that reminds me -- my wife's pet peeve of the week |
| 16:25.45 | jsmith | Why don't the Young Women (and Relief Society) ever talk about the oath and covenant of the priesthood... |
| 16:25.53 | jsmith | There's your controversial topic... discuss! |
| 16:32.13 | resplin_ | I think we all agree that they should talk about it more. <grin> |
| 16:32.36 | resplin | I mentioned earlier my favorite Mormon podcast: The Maxwell Institute Podcast. |
| 16:32.48 | resplin | But I have another now. The FAIR Mormon Podcast. They have some great episodes. |
| 16:33.28 | Wegg | oath and covenant of the priesthood. |
| 16:33.32 | Wegg | googles it. |
| 16:35.21 | Wegg | to magnify our callings. . . learn God's duty, living our best in our fields of labor. . . concentrating our talennts. |
| 16:35.26 | Wegg | its' too bloody broad. |
| 16:35.57 | Wegg | https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1985/10/the-oath-and-covenant-of-the-priesthood?lang=eng |
| 16:36.02 | resplin | Wegg: D&C 84 |
| 16:36.28 | Wegg | To give diligent heed |
| 16:36.41 | resplin | I haven't ever read the talk you linked to. Interesting. |
| 16:36.46 | resplin | back burners it because he should be working |
| 17:24.05 | Wegg | I think there is a lot of pressure to do more. More of the same thing we know we should be doing more of already. |
| 17:24.30 | Wegg | I'm not trying to justify doing less but. . . guilt sucks. |
| 17:24.33 | Wegg | as a motivator. |
| 17:25.44 | Wegg | Friendships motivate me. When I see friends doing their part, doing their best. . . it gets me off the couch. |
| 17:26.10 | Wegg | When I see my wife work so hard. . . my kid saying her prayers etc. . . that gets me going. |
| 17:26.34 | Wegg | I guess that is just another form of guilt though. |
| 17:26.44 | resplin | I've slowly realized that each additional covenant in the gospel isn't actually asking me to do more. They are all the same things I committed to do at baptism, but now I am enabled to succeed at them because I have grown. |
| 17:27.01 | Wegg | yup |
| 17:27.11 | Wegg | I'd agree with that. |
| 17:27.14 | resplin | And that enabling power is the atonement. I'm never good enough on my own. |
| 17:28.49 | Wegg | I have to take my final for Religion 212a at BYU this Saturday. |
| 17:29.08 | Wegg | LAST class, last test and I'll be done with school. |
| 17:29.55 | Wegg | (knock on wood) |
| 17:31.04 | Wegg | amazing how many times in the new testament it lists that we will be judged according to our works. |
| 17:31.08 | Wegg | all there in plain english. |
| 17:31.15 | Wegg | Especially in Revelations. |
| 17:31.33 | Wegg | It is not enough to just be baptized and believe. |
| 17:31.52 | Wegg | So weird that anyone who reads the scriptures would take issue with that logic. |
| 17:32.23 | Wegg | The Atonement isn't a free pass. |
| 17:35.16 | resplin | Exactly. Jesus can't change us if we aren't trying. But we don't have to compare our efforts against any external measure. |
| 17:37.28 | Wegg | No. . . I don't see it as a contest where there is anything that CAN be measured. We each need to measure our own progress. What did I do today, this week, this month, and could I have done more? |
| 17:37.57 | Wegg | But we will be measured. |
| 17:38.06 | Wegg | in the end. |
| 17:56.25 | resplin | I find guilt is a result of my measuring my progress against some arbitrary standard. But it seems to me like the only measure that matters is "am I feeling God's grace with me?" |
| 18:02.58 | Wegg | I guess talks about "are you doing enough to fulfill your covenants" don't do it for me personally. They have lost their punch. |
| 20:34.49 | xp_prg | hi everyone :> |
| 20:43.51 | romanovic | hi xp_prg |
| 21:09.42 | Wegg | hey xp_prg |
| 21:10.17 | xp_prg | I love it when trials come and I have to rely on someone from church to help me and my wife :> |
| 21:10.21 | xp_prg | and then it all works out |
| 21:10.27 | xp_prg | one of the first things happen to me last night |
| 21:10.35 | xp_prg | so many people came to my aid |
| 21:10.45 | xp_prg | it was quite surprising |
| 21:11.11 | xp_prg | the church is sooooo true |
| 21:14.28 | Wegg | Well that's cool. |
| 21:14.38 | Wegg | I think it's pretty awesome being on the other end too though. |
| 21:14.49 | Wegg | Someone needs help? I'm your man. |
| 21:15.10 | Wegg | But. . . I try and make sure it isn't contingent on them being members of the church. |
| 21:28.01 | xp_prg | ya, I was up till like 2 am figuring everything out |
| 21:28.17 | xp_prg | a guy lent me like 3000.00 of equipment to fix my problem |
| 21:28.38 | xp_prg | I don't understand people's generosity sometimes |
| 21:28.57 | xp_prg | did you guys see the jordan pilot who got burned to death? |
| 21:29.00 | Wegg | What was the problem if you don't mind me asking? |
| 21:29.05 | Wegg | Yea I saw that. |
| 21:29.17 | Wegg | The King of Jordon lead the retaliation. |
| 21:29.19 | xp_prg | I accidentally tracked mud into my office and the hr rep went postal |
| 21:29.30 | Wegg | Locals solving their own problems. The way it should be. |
| 21:29.38 | Wegg | oh yikes. |
| 21:29.49 | xp_prg | what is the retaliation that will take place, do you know? |
| 21:30.09 | Wegg | Huge Jordan air strikes and special forces missions. |
| 21:30.57 | Wegg | http://i.imgur.com/PMsYf0n.jpg |
| 21:31.01 | Wegg | That's their king. |
| 21:31.23 | xp_prg | wow he looks bad ass :> |
| 21:31.31 | *** join/##lds joshontheweb (~joshonthe@c-98-202-95-137.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:31.39 | Wegg | I'd vote for him. |
| 21:31.46 | Wegg | (Monty Python Reference) |
| 21:31.49 | xp_prg | I just can't fathom how they could do that to that pilot |
| 21:32.05 | xp_prg | and not feel shame and remorese |
| 21:32.38 | xp_prg | to me, if your going to do something like that, you don't celebrate it and they starved him for 5 days |
| 21:33.29 | xp_prg | anyway, I don't understand why they didn't just cut one of his arms off, why is it always death for these people? |
| 21:33.34 | xp_prg | its like they have no mercy at all |
| 21:33.46 | Wegg | Very old Testament stuff. |
| 21:33.51 | xp_prg | and they were holding him hostage |
| 21:33.57 | xp_prg | for ransom money |
| 21:34.03 | xp_prg | and Jordan didn't do it fast enough I guess |
| 21:34.08 | Wegg | Moses came down from the mountain, saw his people sinning and went and killed 3000 of his own people. |
| 21:34.31 | xp_prg | wow I didn't remember that |
| 21:35.03 | Wegg | The sunday school manual glosses over some bits. |
| 21:35.04 | xp_prg | I was watching a documentary on the apostle Paul, and he said he was in peril from "false" brethren |
| 21:35.04 | Wegg | LOL |
| 21:35.29 | xp_prg | I hate to say it, I have come across a few false brethren myself and I felt like I was in perl too |
| 21:35.32 | xp_prg | peril |
| 21:36.09 | Wegg | yea it's rough to tell who is false and who isn't. |
| 21:36.41 | xp_prg | its like people who were born into the church kind of go crazy in the singles wards |
| 21:37.30 | xp_prg | I can't tell you how many times I have heard both men and women say to me, if I wasn't born intot he church I probably wouldn't be in it, I felt like saying then don't be in it |
| 21:38.01 | xp_prg | I just couldn't figure out the right response |
| 21:38.26 | Wegg | I can say that. |
| 21:38.40 | xp_prg | say what? |
| 21:38.44 | Wegg | If I wasn't born in the church there is no way I'd be in it. |
| 21:38.53 | xp_prg | why may I ask? |
| 21:39.03 | Wegg | Because I would not have had any foundation in it. |
| 21:39.33 | Wegg | I would have formed my own belief pattern and would have found Mormons "weird" and not had anything to do with them. |
| 21:39.44 | Wegg | We don't come across as. . . well adjusted to the outside world. |
| 21:41.43 | Wegg | Sorry if that rocks your world. :-( |
| 21:42.30 | xp_prg | to me that answer doesn't make sense, does that mean you don't like the church or you do? |
| 21:42.45 | Wegg | Church, no. Gospel, yes. |
| 21:43.09 | xp_prg | your answer further confuses me oh well, not trying to make any contention :> |
| 21:43.11 | Wegg | I have a hard time with the people who can't tell the difference. |
| 21:43.19 | Wegg | he he |
| 21:43.43 | Wegg | Church = Meetings meetings meetings meetings meetings, tiny bit of service, more meetings meetings meetings. |
| 21:43.56 | Wegg | Gospel = Love, truth, hapiness. |
| 21:44.00 | Wegg | happiness. |
| 21:44.15 | xp_prg | we are perfected through the church, the Gospel is not enough |
| 21:44.27 | xp_prg | its like saying we have the knowledge, and then refuse to have a body |
| 21:45.18 | Wegg | Try and find the word "church" in the Bible. |
| 21:45.41 | xp_prg | anyway, I am also challenged by people in the church, I also have accepted that I need the challenge to progress spiritually as well, anyway, I have a long way to go so don't feel bad or anything :> |
| 21:45.57 | Wegg | The early Christians met in their homes, hung out, sang hymns. They called themselves the "New Way". |
| 21:46.31 | xp_prg | The early Christians were slaves, they were happy with even the most simple of things |
| 21:46.42 | Wegg | some were. |
| 21:46.58 | xp_prg | most were, most were the dregs of society |
| 21:46.59 | Wegg | and some were slave owners. |
| 21:47.19 | xp_prg | the new christian movement appealed to the disenfranchised |
| 21:47.41 | xp_prg | you would not recognize the church, it would have probably been filled with modern day bums and losers if you will |
| 21:47.51 | Wegg | exactly. |
| 21:48.03 | xp_prg | it had extremely humble beginnings |
| 21:48.15 | xp_prg | nobody was riding up in a gold plated chariot initially |
| 21:48.21 | Wegg | Now, if you have scruff on your chin or your shirt isn't white you are not asked to pass the sacrament. |
| 21:48.28 | xp_prg | heh |
| 21:48.51 | Wegg | I wish it would stick to the humble and openness I read about in the scriptures. |
| 21:49.16 | Wegg | But then it wouldn't be a church lead by modern day Prophets. |
| 21:49.22 | Wegg | and I guess this is what we need. |
| 21:49.24 | Wegg | So I go. |
| 21:49.29 | Wegg | and try and figure out why. |
| 21:49.40 | xp_prg | well careful what you wish for, you might get it, we are to be more accepting of homosexuals, people with "alternative lifestyles", people who don't want to have kids, people who believe divorce is ok.... |
| 21:50.36 | Wegg | Accept them all. Why judge? |
| 21:50.55 | xp_prg | there is a judge in Israel, he is the bishop |
| 21:51.01 | Wegg | Christ was hanging out with those people. Not the well to do suburbanites in their sunday bests. |
| 21:51.25 | xp_prg | anyway, we are definitely under attack now |
| 21:51.31 | xp_prg | the persecution has begun |
| 21:51.33 | Wegg | o.O |
| 21:51.38 | Wegg | nah |
| 21:52.28 | Wegg | Three is no attack on Mormonism. |
| 21:52.38 | Wegg | Heck there is a play about us on Broadway! |
| 21:52.47 | Wegg | We are an enigma. . . but we are not being attacked. |
| 21:53.20 | xp_prg | no, we are, this whole gay marriage thing is an attack |
| 21:54.32 | Wegg | To not allow them equal representation under the law is an attack on them. |
| 21:54.59 | Wegg | It would be an attack it the church were "forced" to let them into the Temple. |
| 21:55.05 | xp_prg | you would have them enter the temple? |
| 21:55.18 | Wegg | if a Gay man is worthy. Sure. |
| 21:55.33 | Wegg | Is he obeying his covenants? |
| 21:55.40 | xp_prg | no to be sealed in gay marriage, you are wanting this? |
| 21:55.58 | Wegg | that is a sin. |
| 21:56.07 | Wegg | to us it is at least. |
| 21:56.17 | Wegg | But we should not be pushing our beliefs on others. |
| 21:56.22 | xp_prg | that is the next thing on the agenda, and it will force all US temples to close |
| 21:56.33 | Wegg | Ok. |
| 21:56.37 | Wegg | So they close. |
| 21:56.52 | xp_prg | now do you understand why we are under attack? |
| 21:56.55 | Wegg | no |
| 21:57.07 | xp_prg | wake up man |
| 21:57.09 | Wegg | he he |
| 21:58.03 | Wegg | You watch Gen Beck don't you. |
| 21:58.13 | xp_prg | don't have cable, only netflix |
| 21:58.59 | Wegg | The Jews got really mad at Peter when he tried to bring a Gentile into the temple. |
| 21:59.33 | Wegg | I sometimes think Mormons are doing the same thing with people outside of their pre-conceived notions of what defines good and evil. |
| 22:00.32 | xp_prg | I think the Church is starting to water down its message, that is the opposite of what is needed |
| 22:00.55 | Wegg | So you do not believe in a living church? |
| 22:01.05 | Wegg | There are branches of Mormonism you could join. |
| 22:01.12 | Wegg | i think they even have multiple wives. |
| 22:01.45 | xp_prg | it won't last |
| 22:01.49 | Wegg | I think the church's message is getting closer and closer to what I read about in the scriptures. |
| 22:01.51 | Wegg | personally. |
| 22:02.18 | xp_prg | anyway, I am a convert, I have never understood how different I really am |
| 22:02.30 | xp_prg | from most church members, Hinkley was right |
| 22:02.30 | Wegg | Where do you live? |
| 22:02.53 | xp_prg | I have lived in numerous places |
| 22:03.00 | Wegg | currently? |
| 22:03.21 | xp_prg | by the most beautiful ocean in the world |
| 22:03.43 | Wegg | o.O |
| 22:03.52 | Wegg | So you live in Brisbane? |
| 22:03.57 | Wegg | ;-) |
| 22:04.00 | xp_prg | Hawaii |
| 22:04.50 | Wegg | I was born in Hawaii. |
| 22:05.07 | Wegg | North shore near BYU Hawaii |
| 22:05.25 | Wegg | Laie |
| 22:06.07 | Wegg | I love going to church there. |
| 22:06.13 | Wegg | "Aloha!" |
| 22:06.19 | Wegg | gives me shivers how much love there is . |
| 22:06.35 | xp_prg | wow man!!! |
| 22:06.42 | Wegg | Church there is a hug fest. |
| 22:06.43 | xp_prg | Aloha to you :> |
| 22:06.49 | Wegg | Hugs all round. |
| 22:07.07 | xp_prg | so are you a hawaiian then? |
| 22:07.08 | Wegg | Here you get a manly back slap hug if your lucky. |
| 22:07.10 | Wegg | no. |
| 22:07.12 | Wegg | Australian. |
| 22:07.15 | xp_prg | heh ok |
| 22:07.29 | Wegg | But I live in Salt Lake right now. |
| 22:08.28 | xp_prg | dude that is a cool place to live, surrounded by the Saints in the promise land |
| 22:08.30 | xp_prg | I am jealous |
| 22:09.25 | Wegg | ahhh. . . and I'm jealous of you living in a beautiful climate with loving open people. |
| 22:10.05 | Wegg | Have you been to the church in the States? |
| 22:11.16 | xp_prg | yes |
| 22:12.05 | xp_prg | I like hugs too |
| 22:13.38 | Wegg | are you Hawaiian? |
| 22:13.44 | xp_prg | no I am a hoale |
| 22:13.47 | xp_prg | from California |
| 22:13.50 | Wegg | ahh |
| 22:14.05 | Wegg | I lived in California too. |
| 22:14.10 | Wegg | Pamona |
| 22:14.19 | xp_prg | I have been all over California |
| 22:14.31 | Wegg | I lived in Redding for a couple years too |
| 22:14.43 | xp_prg | oh nice, I was in Chico for a while |
| 22:14.53 | Wegg | College town! |
| 22:33.52 | xp_prg | yup, very cute girls down there :> |
| 22:34.08 | xp_prg | and they do not have many morals |
| 22:34.20 | xp_prg | and no I don't think that is a good thing |
| 22:40.27 | Wegg | as long as you keep yours. |
| 22:41.39 | xp_prg | yup |
| 22:41.51 | xp_prg | can't tell you how many times I had to say no |
| 22:42.13 | xp_prg | morals are insane now and the girls are aggressive |
| 22:42.52 | resplin | I didn't read the whole conversation, but wanted to share this article with Wegg: |
| 22:43.11 | resplin | http://www.eugeneengland.org/why-the-church-is-as-true-as-the-gospel |
| 22:43.30 | Wegg | you lost me at eugeneengland mate. |
| 22:43.31 | Wegg | sorry. |
| 22:43.37 | resplin | I know I shared it in this channel recently, and we had a conversation about people that know the author. But I don't remember who that was. |
| 22:43.38 | Wegg | Not a gospel source. |
| 22:43.53 | Wegg | Might have been me. LOL |
| 22:44.02 | resplin | He has some excellent insights. And the article is worth reading. |
| 22:44.28 | resplin | xp_prg: Glad you had a quorum that would help you out. |
| 22:44.29 | resplin | Gotta go. |
| 22:44.46 | xp_prg | hugs on resplin |
| 22:44.53 | xp_prg | doesn't care if its wrong :> |
| 22:44.54 | Wegg | :-) |
| 22:44.56 | Wegg | Hugs are good. |
| 23:14.22 | resplin | Hugs are good. Though I disagree with dismissing anything as "not a Gospel source". I think the Gospel is more encompassing than that. An on the question addressed by the essay, I think it is exactly right. |
| 23:14.59 | resplin | There are a lot of things in the administration of the Church that are difficult. But I think that is exactly the point. |
