| 03:03.17 | findlay | no way. I wanted to see the debate |
| 03:26.21 | jsmith | findlay: There's a debate? |
| 03:32.58 | findlay | Clav pm'd romanovic |
| 03:33.42 | findlay | so I didn't get to review his provocative questions |
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| 12:09.31 | romanovic | findlay: haha. has he been in with provocative questions before? |
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| 17:15.02 | findlay | romanovic: I don't know, just lamenting the dearth of channel activity |
| 17:22.10 | jsmith | findlay: If you want me to, I can start throwing out controversial topics just to get more channel activity |
| 17:22.48 | findlay | sure |
| 17:26.01 | resplin | We spent priesthood discussing the spiritually degrading effects of IRC. |
| 17:26.14 | jsmith | OK, first controversial topic: Should I feel guilty for not wearing a white shirt to church? |
| 17:26.20 | resplin | Yes. |
| 17:26.22 | resplin | Absolutely. |
| 17:26.41 | jsmith | So, I've found that people tend to fall into two camps: |
| 17:26.59 | jsmith | 1) You should be wearing a white shirt and tie to perform priesthood duties |
| 17:26.59 | resplin | And for having caffeine in your system. |
| 17:27.05 | jsmith | and |
| 17:27.19 | jsmith | 2) The white shirt isn't necessary |
| 17:28.26 | resplin | stops with his pathetic attempts at being funny |
| 17:28.43 | resplin | I really like Elder Packer's talk on "The Unwritten Order of Things" |
| 17:28.48 | resplin | (too lazy to find the link) |
| 17:29.32 | resplin | I think there is value in fitting in to the culture that the Church promotes. There are lessons to be had there. But they shouldn't be used as tests of the spirituality of others. |
| 17:30.09 | resplin | (still quiet) |
| 17:33.44 | jsmith | Fair enough |
| 17:34.11 | jsmith | I find myself closer to camp number 2, even though I wear a white shirt much of the time |
| 17:34.36 | jsmith | I know that there are some people who broadcast their difference through dress -- and that's not my intent |
| 17:34.56 | jsmith | but at the same time, I don't think there's anything wrong with wearing a nice blue or pink or yellow dress shirt to church |
| 17:35.53 | jsmith | Another thing that worries me is when I hear people say "I can't pass the sacrament because I'm not wearing a white shirt" -- as if the power is in the shirt, and not in the priesthood |
| 17:37.38 | resplin | I had a bishop who required everyone to wear a white shirt to pass the sacrament. No sweaters allowed. Suits were okay though. |
| 17:37.47 | findlay | you live with whatever policy there is, discern away whatever unnecessary cultural expectations there are, and endure both patiently for whatever pith of truth there will be inside |
| 17:37.49 | resplin | Not my style. |
| 17:38.11 | findlay | I'm pretty sure the white shirt thing is not even a policy |
| 17:38.13 | resplin | (I was referring to the requirement, not to findlay's comment. |
| 17:39.03 | findlay | there was a guy in my ward who told a story about how his bishop denied him the Aaronic priesthood because he had long hair |
| 17:39.39 | findlay | but then they moved and the new bishop said that the only hair requirement he knew of is the missionary one |
| 17:40.51 | resplin | On my mission I had a bishop rant to me about how fed up he was with missionaries coming from Utah and imposing their cultural expectations on his ward. That was a valuable lesson. |
| 17:41.37 | findlay | but so many wards of the diasporia are merely Utah satelites in culture |
| 17:42.08 | findlay | like near universities, where Utah peoples commonly relocate |
| 17:46.10 | resplin | It is hard to preserve a culture in a fast growing organization. We saw a world-wide consolidation (correlation) of standards, procedures, and culture that I think provided a valuable basis from which to grow local congregations. I expect that as the newer regions of the Church mature and there are experienced members in each community, that the culture will tolerate more diversity as it did before 1960. |
| 17:54.09 | jsmith | I had a mission president that was very quick to point out that there's nothing in the church handbooks that talk about having a white shirt to pass the sacrament, or even dressing in white clothing to perform a baptism. |
| 17:54.46 | jsmith | Of course, there's symbols in the way we dress, but it's not a hard or fast requirement as far as the handbooks go |
| 18:04.14 | findlay | the church requires suits for missionary service, and people seem to imply imitation upon members (the more suit-like your attire, the more righteous) |
| 18:04.19 | findlay | s/righteous/pharisee/ |
| 18:05.08 | findlay | the church culturally prefers suits because they used to connote a respectful dress |
| 18:06.22 | findlay | whereas, I cannot look upon a suit and not think it is a symbol for hypocracy, corruption, and deception |
| 18:06.35 | findlay | will never have a job that requires a suit |
| 18:32.05 | romanovic | likes suits! |
| 18:32.21 | romanovic | I've never had a job requiring a suit, at least not every day |
| 18:35.15 | romanovic | I was always impressed, when I served in poor neighborhoods, how the poorest of families would dress up themselves and their children nice for church (not just LDS, but any church) |
| 18:36.00 | romanovic | Sometimes nicer than I dressed up as a kid |
| 18:38.08 | romanovic | And it had nothing to do with them showing off their status or righteousness, but everything to do with teaching their kids to be clean and reverent when going to church |
| 18:56.09 | findlay | the modern suit evolved out of a 1950s era business dress standard |
| 18:56.38 | findlay | lawyers, salesman, finance: they all wear suits and the suit means "trust me" |
| 18:57.35 | findlay | sometimes the suit means monolithic, imperial, bureaucratic, authoratitative, hegemony, institutional |
| 18:57.47 | findlay | :would Jesus wear a suit?" |
| 18:57.52 | findlay | s/:/"/ |
| 18:58.32 | findlay | doesn't wear scholastic robes either |
| 18:58.38 | findlay | even more offensive |
| 18:58.53 | findlay | ~lart academia |
| 18:58.53 | infobot | does a little 'renice 20 -u academia' |
| 18:59.13 | findlay | yet still, I'm here |
| 19:01.00 | resplin | doesn't feel competent to suggest what 21st century attire Jesus would adopt for church. |
| 19:05.43 | findlay | well, I know |
| 19:05.49 | findlay | because I'm smart |
| 19:25.59 | jsmith | hums the Ray Stevens song "Would Jesus Wear a Rolex" while he works on his expense reports |
| 22:37.52 | macnewbold | loves that song |
| 22:44.25 | romanovic | heh. "I like to picture Jesus in a tuxedo t-shirt, because it says like, I wanna be formal, but I'm here to party too" |
| 22:44.45 | romanovic | https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vuAUI_0knfk#t=95s |