IRC log for #wowwiki on 20101026

01:21.47*** join/#wowwiki deek| (
01:30.35*** join/#wowwiki crucially (~sky@wikia/crucially)
01:43.40*** join/#wowwiki sannse (~sannse@wikia/pdpc.professional.sannse)
01:46.36sannselooking for admins... pcj? around?
01:47.07Sky2042We're around sannse.
01:47.15sannseI'd like to discuss stopping the talk page messages
01:47.18Sky2042chuckles at being discarded as not being an admin.
01:47.29pcjthis should be interesting
01:47.30sannsesorry Sky2042, I went by the @s :)
01:48.30sannsepcj: or we could not discuss it... I'd rather at least try to keep the civility going though....
01:48.45pcjyou're going to discuss me stopping something anyone can do?
01:49.02pcjwe agreed the messages were neutral
01:49.06pcjits been less than a week
01:49.13pcjyou guys really are hurting for money aren't you
01:49.32sannseI'm hoping to discuss you stopping something that anyone would be banned from doing in any other situation
01:49.41pcjNot on WoWWiki they wouldn't
01:50.05sannsehumm.. still not quite believing that
01:50.20pcjhang on let me check with a local admin
01:50.23pcjoh yep it's fine
01:50.37sannserandom guy goes to each talk page to link his new forum... WoWWiki admins wouldn't stop him?  honestly?
01:50.48Sky2042If we gave permission, and we would have no reason not to, then people would be welcome to do so.
01:50.49pcjafter wiki consensus? nope
01:51.03sannsewell that's the problem, you have left this wiki.
01:51.28pcjsannse: i'm still around maintaining stuff :P
01:52.05sannseand yet, are you fully acting in the best interests of the wiki in allowing this?  given the reaction you would have to that random guy?
01:52.28pcjthe random guy with community consensus? sure
01:52.55sannseagain, which community? the one that is acting for another wiki, a competitor, or for /this/ wiki?
01:53.19Sky2042sannse: You're the one playing word tricks there. Be specific please.
01:54.00pcjsannse: which community does wiki have in its best interests, the one that left, or the one you refused to give up the domain to?
01:54.04sannseSky2042: no tricks at all, I don't think that the talk page messages are in the best interests of WoWWiki, or the community that wants to stay and develop this wiki
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01:54.37sannseI have the interests of the community on Wikia in mind
01:54.43pcjsannse: feel free to start a community discussion
01:54.52pcjconsensus still permits it
01:54.53sannsepcj: again, which community?
01:54.59pcjon WoWWiki :P
01:55.03pcjthey have forums you know
01:55.11pcjsee who answers
01:55.37Sky2042Which has not been harmed. We agreed to a neutral message. You said "okay" (presumably agreeing that the message was fine to post, and so acting as the community of Wikia).
01:55.46Sky2042We are now posting that message.
01:55.54sannseI guess what it comes down to is are you going to be on this community (WoWiki) for that community's benifit, or for the benefit of your own competative community?
01:56.44sannseI agreed to that message, yes, I'm now saying that's been done, and I'm wanting talk about when it stops
01:56.53sannsethe active community has been informed
01:57.22pcjdefine "active"
01:57.35Sky2042Part of the nature of wikis is that anyone who contributes is active.
01:57.52Sky2042The more contributors, the more active people to be informed, no?
01:57.56sannse(and, just to state the even more obvious, what I actually would like both personally and as a Wikia representitive, is for people to stay for the benefit of WoWiki)
01:58.05pcjI would not be a good admin for either wiki if I did not inform people of their options
01:58.11pcjif they choose your wowwiki then so be it
01:58.31pcjwhat Wikia doesn't seem to understand is given choice they don't want your stupid skin
01:58.34sannsepcj: "their WoWWiki"... now how is playing word games? ;)
01:58.34Sky2042We're betting they won't.
01:58.51pcjsannse: i'm just trying to differentiate
01:59.08sannseI thought we were using WoWpeida and WoWWiki to differentiate
01:59.22Sky2042sannse: Then you should have done so at the beginning, eh? :D
01:59.52sannseSky2042: that was you accusation, but not what I see happening
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02:00.45sannseso, what do /you/ see as a reasonable time limit?
02:01.37pcjwell it will be longer than a week i can tell you that
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02:05.45sannseOK, so that didn't really answer me...
02:06.12pcjlisten, we don't like losing people any more than you.  I consider the community as a whole, I don't want to leave *anyone* behind.
02:06.22pcjStranding people on the POS that is Wikia is not my idea of treating them well
02:07.02sannsewell I'm sure that all of them are capable of following the conversations, and of finding your alternative (assuming it succeeds as a fork of course)
02:07.39pcjreally? most of the ones i've left talk messages for so far haven't known
02:07.44pcjso how can you say they will figure it out?
02:07.53pcjespecially with the shitty job your designers did with the navigation
02:08.46pcjbesides, if they'll "figure it out anyway" what harm does me posting a talk page message do?
02:08.58pcjI think you're banking on them not figuring it out by themselves
02:09.05sannseyou have a site notice, community message, and now are spamming talk pages... I think that's more than anyone would expect a site to allow for a competitor
02:09.16pcjsannse: did you just say site notice?
02:09.31pcji don't know why i took you seriously
02:09.31Sky2042A sitenotice that nobody sees, a community message that again, no one sees.
02:09.31sannseyes, which is in place for monaco and monobook users
02:09.53sannsewell, I could give you click through stats that show otherwise, but...  :)
02:10.05pcji could give you logs of people who never notice them :P
02:10.11pcjso fuck your stats
02:10.38sannseok, so I thought we were actually trying to be polite here....
02:10.50pcjno, i was being polite
02:10.53pcjyou were being asinine
02:11.41pcjglad we could agree
02:12.28HerodotusFuck your stats is v. diplomatic, pcj.
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02:13.01sannseoh come on... this is getting silly... I'm not trying to have an insult battle here
02:13.44pcjI'm not vandalizing the wiki. I'm simply advising people of their options
02:13.57pcjIt will stop eventually because I will tire of it
02:14.00pcjProbably sooner than later
02:14.20Sky2042What insulted us most is the pretense that you were going to listen to people about your skin. What insulted us is the pretense that you would then fix it. What insulted us most is that you were offering crumbs after the fact to try to make up. If there's been a royale of insults, you've definitely won, sannse.
02:14.39sannsepcj: you are spamming the wiki.  By any definition other than one created by you and others who have decided to leave it.
02:15.27sannseSky2042: that's never been the intention, I don't think there is anything I could say right now to convince you otherwise, but our intention has always been to create a site that works as well as possible for as many people as possible.
02:16.01Sky2042sannse: Intentions are not actions. You are not judged by your intentions, anywhere in life.
02:16.05Sky2042Actions are why you are judged.
02:16.12Sky2042And your actions do not fit the intentions.
02:16.33ZervonnThats not really what wikis are meant to be is it? They aren't meant to mingle with each other if they're completely different subjects
02:16.49sannseSky2042: that's true, which is why my action is sitting in here talking to you and pcj
02:17.00Sky2042(And if you've managed to find someone who judges by intention, please give me personal contact information. I'd really like to take their money. :D)
02:17.08pcji'm just not sure why you're going back on your word that the talk messages were fine
02:17.10sannseZervonn: why not?
02:17.19pcjit seems like wikia is still not to be trusted, strange
02:17.28Sky2042sannse: After the fact. After the damn fact of the thing.
02:17.40TorhalI don't particularly care about Hello Kitty World, nor do I want to see anything relating to it when I go to a WoW-based site.
02:17.55sannsepcj: they were fine... I am OK with you having left them... I don't agree that that should continue indefinitely
02:18.15Sky2042You can attempt to reconcile, but that means you must be prepared to bring suitable compromise. "1200px" of space is not a suitable compromise. It just sounds like we're being bought.
02:18.36kd3it's been amusing watching the fallout of that happening on central/other wikis
02:19.10Sky2042sannse: I'm sorry, but even if you are well-intentioned, you have done nothing but what has most angered the contributors _and_ the viewers.
02:19.11sannseSky2042: I've often been in this channel before and during the changes... I've also been on the staff blogs and elsewhere discussing thsi
02:19.42Sky2042sannse: I'm sure. I'm not going to argue that you have or have not.
02:20.05sannsethere have been many changes from those discussions with people all over Wikia... and (as I've said before) we are also trying to hear the opitions of the silent visitors and so on
02:20.24Sky2042sannse: We have heard the opinions of the silent visitors too. And what they have had to say is that your skin sucks.
02:20.31kd3heard plenty of 'omg what is wrong with wowwiki' at blizzcon wearing his press badge around
02:20.34Sky2042The community is shockingly well knit.
02:20.42TorhalMy opinion: Wikia now officially has a worse layout than Curse.
02:20.48TorhalThat's hard to do.
02:20.59sannsekd3: I heard you were there and met a couple of our guys :)
02:21.21kd3indeed; that was a nice discussion we had.
02:21.41Sky2042So we can test our "silent visitors" just as much as you can. Except we get answers which are about as far from Oasis as being in the middle of a tropical forest...
02:22.28sannsekd3: wish I could have been there too - but I'm not a WoW person, just a wiki person
02:22.31Sky2042sannse: Honestly? Your loss. You'll be seeing revenue die by the end of next year.
02:22.43Sky2042And with that, I'm out. Good night ladies, gents.
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02:23.22AnachronousThe amount of ads in wowwiki, plus the forced page width, is pretty ridiculous.
02:28.48sannse(sorry, got called away a moment there).  Anachronous: nothing much I can add to those discussions right now -- the fixed width has been changed some, and there are less ads right now on the new skin, but I know both are concerns
02:29.58Herodotussannse: I have an honest question, as a neutral observer. Would there be any circumstance (vote or community input-wise) under which Wikia would let the site go peacefully?
02:30.11sannsewe have done so....
02:30.50HerodotusI'm talking about the actual site, as opposed to a 'fork'.
02:31.37sannseyou are talking about closing a site that people are using and enjoying because some of that community has decided to go elsewhere...
02:32.23kd3"some of"?
02:33.03sannseit's clear some are still choosing to stay, and it's obvious that some in the future will choose to join
02:35.55sannseI respect the right to leave, I just ask that if you decide to stay that you act in the interests of the remaining and future WoWiki community, and don't use the site for the benefit of WoWpedia.
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02:36.41pcjsure, there's always Special:Emailuser
02:38.10sannsejust deleted three sarcastic replies ;)
02:38.26sannsedetermined to keep it civil! :P
02:38.43Herodotuseyes the channel topic.
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02:39.10ZervonnI think that was meant to be a secret
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02:39.42sannseheh, I'm not joining there :) I accept I wouldn't be welcome
02:40.16AnachronousWhat's the point of having so many repetitive ads? It's annoying and wasteful.
02:40.22ZervonnWell you said yourself you aren't a wow person :P
02:42.06sannseAnachronous: they pay the bills (and hopefully make us sucessful as a business - not gonna pretend that that's not the hope)
02:42.27sannseZervonn: nope, my closest friend is, but he's never persuaded me to play :)
02:44.37ZervonnYou must have a lot of will power. It took me a while, but I finally gave into the peer pressure.
02:45.38sannseI have too much going on on wikis and IRC and various blogs I try to keep up with :P
02:49.29sannsepcj: I'll take that as an agreement on the talk page messages.  Thank you.  it looks like the first was on the 20th?  How about we agree that they stop once it's been a week of notifications? (with no acceleration in the mean time)
02:50.46sannseand fair warning, using our email system to spam is quite likely to cause problems (I'll be happy to discuss exactly what in a private setting)... so, no, that isn't an alternative.
02:51.09pcjOK, but Wikia cannot remove the sitenotice or any other announcements about the move.  It must be by the consensus of whatever community remains behind
02:52.32sannsethey should go at some point, or we should have some way of understanding what "community that remains behind" is .... I'm not sure of the best way of doing that
02:52.55sannseperhaps we can agree to leave that discussion for at least the rest of this week? with the notices remaining in place until then?
02:53.22pcjsure, so I will continue until we come to an agreement on that
02:54.11sannseI don't think the two need to be connected.  The site notices can remain in place until we come to an agreement on them, that doesn't need to relate to the talk page messages
02:54.23pcjThey are connected
02:54.31pcjNotifying users is the point
02:55.00sannseand I'm agreeing to leaving the notices up for now...
02:55.41AnachronousThere's a certain amount of ads a website can display before it becomes incommodious for many viewers. Considering wowwiki's content is maintained by volunteers, and the site's viewer number is depedent on the amount (and quality) of the content, wouldn't it hurt your business if most (if not all) of the volunteers stop maintaining the content?
02:56.47sannseAnachronous: that's why we don't show most ads for logged in users... and we certainly don't want to show more ads than is reasonable for logged out either
02:57.12kd3but the problem is we have to design the site for anons; I don't think I've ever had ads turned off for me
02:58.38sannsekd3: neither have I (except for testing)... and that's exactly why I sit in a meeting every week where we argue about where the balance is
02:59.15sannse(we were running tests recently accross Wikia, with different ad amounts for different groups, to measure the time spent on site and how it varied)
02:59.29kd3mumbles something about "entirely too many until the VC cash is paid off"
03:00.36sannse"too many" would mean no growth, and no chance of that :)
03:01.32sannseI know there are disageements on what "too many" means, but we most certainly know that we need to have the right amount for wikia to work
03:05.58sannsepcj: still adding the messages while we are actually trying to negotiate? :(
03:06.19pcjwhy not
03:07.31AnachronousConsidering volunteers are the ones that write the website's content and make it possible for you to generate revenue, why don't you negotiate with them as to the right amount of ads and other site aspects?
03:07.47pcjhey that would be a great idea Anachronous
03:08.45sannseAnachronous: because it's simply not practical, Anachronous, much as I'd love it to be :)
03:08.58sannsealso, that was two Anachronous' :P
03:09.44sannseshould really go home soon, I just lost the "who has to lock up" game
03:20.27AnachronousThere are websites with much less ads that are integrated well in the website's skin, and these are sites that must pay writers for content (arstechnica, for example, has two ads--one banner ad, one side square ad). Instead of trying to maximize ad space at the expense of readability, why not place less but more profitable ads?
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03:25.02sannseIntegrating the ads more smoothly was part of the redesign, Anachronous (the main box in a sidebar, rather than in the content itself). Of course we would prefer the best of both worlds... my ideal would be for someone to pay us well for a single ad (or no ad :) but... no such luck
03:25.40Zervonnsurely someone at wikia staff has a rich relative
03:26.02kd3that's VC... they'll want that paid back at some point
03:26.23sannseheh, I do... as it happens... I suspect he didn't get rich by randomly giving money to his cousin's bosses :P
03:26.56sannse(he certainly doesn't randomly give money to his cousin!)
03:27.57Zervonndoesn't hurt to ask
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03:36.56AnachronousThanks for answering my questions, sannse. Good luck with wowwiki, especially now since the editor community has been fragmented. I would say that addressing the editor community's concerns is more important than maximizing ad revenue. The content that editors provide is far more valuable than ad revenue. Those ads certainly depend on that content.
03:38.22sannsethey certainly do.  It's a symbiosis, the content (or rather, the hosting of that content) also depends on those ads  :)
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03:44.57RessyYou need to rebalance them then.  When your editors which create your cash stream leave because your ads are too large and overshadow the content, theres a massive problem.
03:45.27RessyI know, lets put MORE ads on the pages.
03:46.06sannseRessy: that's not the reason for the fork, although ads are no doubt a factor for some (there are not more ads on the new skin)
03:46.22RessyI know the reasons.
03:46.37Ressyand yes it was one of the reasons.
03:47.27pcjit was long a problem
03:47.32pcjand the trend was growing
03:47.41sannseyes, I'm aware it's a factor, and I also know that we are constantly trying to balance those two things
03:48.37sannsethinks she /really/ needs to leave the office soon
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03:48.52sannsepcj: I suspect we aren't going to come to an agreement on this one tonight :(
03:53.31sannsenot really OK, you are insisting on continuing to leave the messages beyond what's reasonable to inform, and in to the realm of spamming... and using "consensus" from those that have chosen not to be a part of this wiki as an excuse to do so ... so, no... not really OK
03:56.01pcji'm not really sure who else to ask for consensus :P
03:56.39RessySome users have preferred to stay and continue editing on wowwiki.
03:56.52sannsepcj: those who want the best for WoWWiki and its future.
03:57.19pcjhow dare you insinuate i don't want the best for wowwiki
03:57.27pcjwikia is the one dragging this process through the mud
03:57.32pcjwe just wanted to take the name and go
03:57.33pcjbut nooo
03:57.37pcjyou forced us to change
03:57.47pcjits wikia that is trashing this community not me
03:58.06pcjso get off your high horse and get the fuck out of my way
03:58.42sannsepcj: I am totally convinced of your good intentions for WoWpedia and the community that's moving there, and for the WoW community in general -- but my concern now is /this/ wiki.
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03:58.51pcjget out.
03:59.03sannseof this channel?
03:59.19pcjyou don't care about the community
03:59.28pcjif you gave a damn you would understand what we are trying to do
03:59.32pcjbut you don't
03:59.36pcjso i don't want to hear another word
03:59.42sannseI understand, I don't agree.. but that's a different thing
04:00.05pcjif you understood you would appreciate that free content is free
04:00.15pcjwikia's objective should be to present a better alternative not stifle competition
04:01.38sannseand if I didn't appreciate that, I wouldn't be trying to make this a smooth transition -- I'm part of a company that explicitly chooses to host under a free licence, I'm someone who has been on wikis since 2002 -- much of that as a volunteer.
04:02.09pcjyou aren't trying to make it smooth
04:02.16pcjif you were trying to make it smooth you would give us the fucking domain name
04:02.30pcjyou're trying to drag as much money out of the IP as you can
04:03.05sannseif I didn't want to make it smooth, I would have banned indiscriminately and wouldn't be sitting here talking to you at 9pm
04:03.54pcji appreciate that you personally are trying to help
04:04.14pcjmy point is that wikia is doing everything it can to make it hard for wikis to leave
04:04.40sannsewe are doing everything we can to make it right for wikis to stay
04:05.02pcjyou should let communities do what they want
04:05.16pcjotherwise you don't care about communities
04:05.31pcjthe terms of use change shows that pretty damn well
04:05.58sannsesorry, pcj, but that's a silly argument.  If I want to do something harmful to my RL community, I expect to be stopped
04:06.22Ressythis isn't harmful to the community. Moving to curse from wikia benefits the wow community.
04:06.35pcjit's harmful to wikia, perhaps
04:06.35Ressyit just impacts you is all.
04:06.38pcjbut not to the community
04:07.06sannseI know we differ on what is harmful to the community, and even on which community we are talking about, but that's again a different thing
04:07.52pcjI think we both know we're not going to agree on anything :P
04:08.06pcjso you'd best either drop it or move on with your plans otherwise
04:08.37sannse*sigh* perhaps you are right on not agreeing on anything
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04:19.03sannsepcj: I'll post on the wiki about this tomorrow.  Thanks for your time (and everyone else involved in the conversation)
04:19.06sannsegood night all
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