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10:23.03Jamashcan someone delete
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20:06.08sannsefyi: < test wiki for the wider version of the new look
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20:22.52ElunaticIs it missing ads now, or are those white spaces supposed to be there?
20:23.32pcj_2none of the tooltips work :(
20:23.44sannseit's a test server, so may be a few bits odd there.  for ads, it will be the same as now - logged in users only see ads on the main page, others see them as usual
20:27.33ElunaticJust a quick question though. Seeing as people are moving on. Was it any chance that Wikia would actually listen to the community on what happened, or was it all out of "your hands" so to speak.
20:27.54ElunaticCurious as to what Wikia sees as "theirs" in the context of each individual Wiki.
20:30.48sannseElunatic: I'm not sure I understand the question, we have listened, and this change is something that was asked for.  We can't give everything that's asked for, but we have made this and other changes already... and will keep modifying the skin as we get feedback and data from its use
20:31.48ElunaticThat's where I don't get what you are saying. "asked for", by who? The editors, admins, or visitors? Are they people who frequent WoWWiki, or the Glee Wiki etc?
20:32.15ElunaticBecause if what you say is true, the staff wouldn't be moving in the first place. At least that's the conclusion I would come to.
20:34.50sannsemore space for articles is something that's been mentioned several times on the forum pages about this
20:36.02sannsewait, I see the confusion... I mean "this change to the width was something that was asked for"
20:36.31ElunaticHaha, good. Got worried there for a minute.
20:36.43ElunaticBut people have also asked for the old skins.
20:38.03sannseyes, as I said, we can't give everything that's asked for... to maintain monaco would take significant engineering time and resources, it's much better for us to put those resources in to a single skin (while maintaining monobook as a personal option)
20:39.08ElunaticWhat maintenance? Doesn't monaco work already?
20:39.34pcj_2they mean for future features
20:39.41g0urrasannse, I'm sorry to say but there's no future for you as a comedian, because that joke about increased width was terrible
20:39.44ElunaticOh yeah, like what? More ads?
20:40.06sannseyes, but it won't as soon as we switch to the next version of the basic software (mediawiki 1.16) and other features, as pcj says
20:40.45sannseg0urra: it's a significant increase
20:41.23ElunaticHorrible, horrible communication then.
20:41.40kd3|netbookwhy is this happening *now*, however, and not a month and a half ago?
20:42.18cruciallykd3|netbook: because it takes time to gather data on user behaviour
20:42.29cruciallyor at least one of the reasons
20:42.32g0urrakd3|netbook: because they haven't freaked out until now
20:42.34sannsekd3: you mean the size increase?  because it's after feedback, and research on ... what crucially said
20:42.57pcj_2i could've told you gamers had bigger screens than most
20:43.10cruciallypcj_2: it is different for different games
20:43.18ElunaticWell, first rule of community management is not sitting idly by and see a PR disaster happen.
20:43.20pcj_2i could've told you wow gamers had bigger screens
20:43.30cruciallypcj_2: yep
20:43.44ElunaticYou could also have made an exception for WoWWiki, considering the size of the thing.
20:43.54sannseElunatic: we aren't sitting idly by, we have been talking on wowwiki, community central, and elsewhere
20:44.02pcj_2that still leaves them with maintaining monaco eluna :P
20:44.17Elunaticpcj: I meant exception till they sorted it out.
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20:44.32sannselooks forward to being idle sometime near Christmas :P
20:44.36Elunatic"Look guys, we will look into it, we will work hard on it and we want all your feedback. Nothing is set in stone blablabla"
20:44.45sannseall true
20:44.50g0urraidle = employed
20:45.08ElunaticPanic = Crazy time.
20:45.25cruciallyElunatic: we haven't released it site wide yet
20:45.39kd3|netbookless than 48 hours and counting
20:46.00sannsethat's when it will start, it won't be all at once
20:46.24ElunaticCould you publish your "research" on what you've gathered from your "users"?
20:46.26sannseI'll be putting up a blog post tomorrow, all being well
20:47.05sannseElunatic: quite probably, we've certainly mentioned a lot of it in the blogs and so on already
20:47.48sannsein particular some of the focus group and user testing we did in the office, on both monaco and the new look (a primary drive was making wikis understandable to new users)
20:48.51ElunaticWhat is there to understand? Go to a wiki, read info. For editors it's another story. I'm biased though.
20:49.42sannsewell the hope is that the readers become editors - and for that they need to not think the wiki was written by "NBC" (for the muppet wiki)... they need to know they are allowed to edit too
20:49.59sannse(was it NBC? the media company anyway)
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20:50.23Wardthe muppets were on cable I think
20:50.46g0urra"Muppet Wiki, the wiki about muppets that anyone can edit!"
20:50.51g0urradoesn't take much more than that
20:51.15g0urra"Welcome to WoWWiki
20:51.16g0urrathe free Warcraft universe info source anyone can edit
20:51.25sannseg0urra: I would have guessed so, but then I'm an old wiki user - turns out that in practice, with real people, it takes more than that
20:51.36Wardg0urra, that's a tautology
20:51.39g0urraand you honestly tried that approach?
20:51.46g0urragoogles tautology
20:52.02Wardit's saying the same thing with different words in the same sentence
20:52.03sannseit's tried on every wiki.  we sat people in front of computers, with real wikis on them, and asked a range of questions
20:52.07Wardwiki implies everyone can edit it
20:52.16sannseI've watched some of the video of the testing
20:52.19Wardand muppet implies it's about muppet :p
20:52.28g0urrareally Ward
20:52.29kd3|netbooknot if you don't know what the word means, even with wikipedia...
20:52.31g0urrahuge surprise
20:52.42pcj_2if you don't know what the word means should you really be editing
20:52.54kd3|netbookno, probably not. but that's not what wikia's going for
20:53.11sannseof course you should, because in that process you learn
20:53.28ElunaticI started editing wikipedia by making pages for things I couldn't find. Or change spelling errors etc.
20:53.32sannsemy first edit in 2002 was simple, much more so than editing a wiki now, with complex templates an all
20:53.34ElunaticAnd went from there.
20:53.51Elunaticsannse: You have to remember that a wiki isn't like a blog.
20:53.58kd3|netbookas was my first edit, and presumably everyone's
20:54.33sannseElunatic: I don't think makeing it understandable is the same as being like a blog
20:55.04sannsekd3: was it? or did you see a page of code that would have terrified anyone that's not got your knowhow? :)
20:55.14g0urraheh, my first edit was on my server's wowwiki page, adding guilds to the list
20:55.22ElunaticDumbing it down is one thing, but pissing off the people who've spent hours upon hours making Wikia what it is, is not the way to go if you ask me.
20:55.49ElunaticIt's not only about getting people to add to it, but to add something worthwhile.
20:55.54sannsenot what we are trying to do, obviously, but any be change is going to annoy some -- or even many
20:56.01kd3|netbookmy first edit ^
20:56.02sannsewe are trying to get people to start
20:56.19g0urraElunatic: but top 10 lists about twilight is so important!!111one
20:56.37sannse < mine
20:56.39g0urra^ first edit
20:57.02ElunaticHaha, my first Wikiedit ever
20:57.49sannsekd3: that edit would have terrified me - all that scary code
20:58.10sannseit's fine now I've grown up with it, it's fine of course, but not the me of 2002
20:58.12Elunaticsannse: It's no more worse that looking at what others have done and learn by example.
20:58.41ElunaticThat's the way I've learned.
20:58.58ElunaticCheck my userpageüna
20:58.58sannsefor you, maybe even for me, not for my mother (who has some great stuff she could add about many topics - but is not techy)
20:59.01ElunaticLook at the source
20:59.22ElunaticYou can't expect someone who is new to something to make that.
20:59.25ElunaticYou have to learn.
20:59.28ElunaticWhich is what you do when you edit.
20:59.32ElunaticYou start out small, and you go from there.
20:59.38sannseexactly, and if someone starts by seeing that, they run and don't learn
20:59.39ElunaticYou then find out if this is something you want to do.
20:59.41g0urrasannse: could you make something that makes people able to edit by just mere thought? because my paralyzed grand mother would like to have a talk with you
20:59.43ElunaticIf you don't, then you don't.
21:00.16sannseso start by showing them that they /can/ eidt, then help show them how to do a simple edit, and so on
21:00.44sannseg0urra: when I do, I'll make sure it's added to wikkia ;)
21:00.54sannsehas to concentrate on a meeting, bbl
21:00.58ElunaticThen you should add bigger "edit" buttons, and maybe plaster it all over.. The thing about a Wiki (at least how I felt it) was the discovery that, shit, I can edit it!
21:01.10kd3|netbooklike the big yellow edit buttons on monaco?
21:01.20g0urraElunatic: also a big popup that says "HEY DID YOU KNOW YOU CAN EDIT THIS PAGE"
21:01.33ElunaticIt should be like the old popup ads!
21:01.46pcj_2<blink> imo
21:02.02ElunaticWith a video that goes all "HEY DUDE! YEAH YOU, no, not you, YOU OVER THERE! YEAH YOU! Please edit this wiki!
21:02.18pcj_2hey i know you guys should make it where they can just double click anywhere on the page to edit it
21:02.37cruciallypcj_2: that is a fantastic idea :)
21:02.38ElunaticWhy even format anymore?
21:02.46ElunaticWhy not just have it in plaintext.
21:02.53g0urracrucially: nice job disabling it with the new skin
21:02.56g0urraclaps half-heartedly, clearly unimpressed
21:02.57kd3|netbookI thought double-click-to-edit got pulled from the new skin?
21:02.57sannseElunatic: < video
21:03.05cruciallyg0urra: ?
21:03.17cruciallyi mean in-place
21:03.18g0urracrucially: I got told that double-click to edit doesn't work in the new skin
21:03.29g0urrabecause they disabled it
21:03.37g0urraI asked, got told "tough luck, adapt"
21:03.50cruciallyit doesn't work in wowwiki?
21:04.42cruciallyi mean in monaco
21:05.00g0urraof course.
21:05.08kd3|netbookit works in monaco iirc; just not in the new look
21:05.09g0urrait doesn't work with the new skin.
21:05.12kd3|netbookflips a few pref switches
21:05.18g0urra<g0urra> crucially: I got told that double-click to edit doesn't work in the new skin
21:05.28cruciallybtw, i meant in-place editing
21:05.32g0urranext up: reading classes!
21:05.38cruciallyg0urra: it doesn't work in monaco for me
21:05.39pcj_2classes or glasses
21:05.48pcj_2crucially: it's a preference
21:05.50ElunaticHAHA, I was just about to say that pcj
21:06.03pcj_2ROFL :D
21:06.04Elunaticcrucially: it's been a part of mediawiki for years.
21:06.07g0urracrucially: you mean "Enable section editing by right clicking on section titles (JavaScript)"?
21:06.13sannselast I heard, it was in the bugs list - it should work as a preference
21:06.20g0urrawhich is in the preferences?
21:06.23g0urraOH SO NOW ITS A BUG
21:06.25g0urraNOT A FEATURE
21:06.26g0urraglad to hear.
21:07.18kd3|netbookya, double-click-to-edit works in monaco (with the pref on)
21:07.36g0urrakd3|netbook: welcome to 2 minutes ago
21:07.38sannsewill check on the status of that in the new look
21:07.44cruciallyi am pretty sure it should work in oasis
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21:08.14g0urrait doesn't
21:08.43g0urraoh maybe you just added a 0 so you have to click 20 times
21:08.52cruciallyg0urra: it will be fixed
21:09.05g0urraafter I brought it up 2 weeks ago?
21:09.18cruciallyi can look at the ticket if you really care
21:09.44g0urraok it's 11 days ag
21:09.47kd3|netbookstill doesn't get why the trac ticket instance isn't public
21:09.54kd3|netbookbut that's neither here nor there
21:09.58kd3|netbooklooks for more food
21:10.08g0urra"Well, I'm sorry for sending you on a wild goose chase as I just found out myself we are no longer supporting double-click-to-edit in Oasis at all. It will still be supported in Monobook, just not Oasis. I certainly hope that will change myself as double-click is something I use constantly, but that is the way it is at this time."
21:10.19g0urrafrom Wikia Community Support on october 7
21:10.28cruciallykd3|netbook: because there might be PII in there, is my understanding
21:10.36ElunaticI wonder what Wikia will do with all this white space
21:10.41ElunaticPerhaps a huge ad?
21:10.42kd3|netbookflip the security flag?
21:11.05cruciallykd3|netbook: ?
21:11.06kd3|netbookunless trac doesn't do that the way bz does
21:11.22kd3|netbookcan make individual tickets 'private' so to not show up publicly
21:11.43cruciallykd3|netbook: we don't use trac, we use request tracker
21:11.45g0urracrucially: see the text above and give the guy who replied a swift kick in the ass
21:11.54sannseg0urra: I've just checked, it's definitely changed since then, it will be back
21:12.14g0urratoo bad I won't care about oasis by that time :)
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21:16.53ElunaticCommunication = Difficult.
21:18.20cruciallyI am curious, how many datacenters does curse have?
21:18.49XtekAnd we don't have "Data centers' but we host our servers in 1.
21:19.08cruciallyenjoy the speed of light
21:19.24XtekWe just finished migration from our New Jersey data center to the new one in Atlanta with brand new, very beefy servers.
21:19.26ElunaticSpeed of light?
21:19.45kd3|netbookit'll take a short bit of time to reach our editors in eu/au
21:19.53kd3|netbookbut not like that's something wow players haven't had to deal with forever
21:19.59ElunaticOh snap
21:20.02cruciallyElunatic: as in it will be slower for people further away
21:20.46pcj_2kd3: its not like wikia has servers in AU anyway
21:20.48XtekYeah we don't currently have a CDN hsoted however we are litterally a short distance from 1 hop to the New York hub.
21:20.59cruciallyNew York hub?
21:21.18XtekThe hub that handles EU traffic is in New York.
21:21.24XtekTo/From the US
21:21.31ElunaticThe fiber over the atlantic
21:21.33cruciallywhat traffic?
21:21.43pcj_2information superhighway traffic
21:21.43cruciallywhere did you get the information from
21:21.48stew-aactually its under :P
21:21.56kd3|netbookover the atlantic?
21:22.00kd3|netbookimagines a launch loop
21:22.01Elunaticstew-a: Semantics :P
21:22.08cruciallyisn't "in the atlantic"
21:22.26cruciallyand it doesn't help, it is still a huge latency hit
21:22.55XtekEven a traceroute from Germany was only 18 hops.
21:23.01XtekTo our ATL data center, that's pretty low
21:23.07ElunaticHuge is a bit of a stretch.
21:23.08cruciallyxtek: only 18 hops?
21:23.17pcj_2world wide web is world wide?
21:23.35Elunaticcrucially, digging for something to bitch about.
21:23.41XtekAppears that way.
21:23.50cruciallyI am 11 from dec-ix from the west coast
21:24.14cruciallyscratch that 7
21:24.35Elunaticcrucially: Since you are closer, could you host us from home please!
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21:25.06sannsehe hosts you from all the wonderful server places he has
21:25.10pcj_2look at wikia's skin now back to ours, back at wikia's skin, now back to ours.  sadly wikia's skin isn't ours, but if they stopped worrying about transatlantic traffic and concentrated on maintaining quality skins, they could be like ours
21:25.22Xtek11 hops from England
21:25.23XtekQQ moar
21:25.38pcj_2wowwiki is now diamonds
21:25.39Xtekthat's damn good considering it takes me more hops to get to my wow server in my own damn country
21:25.53stew-ai'm in the UK and i get less latency to than eu wow servers
21:26.14crucially5 to london for me
21:26.16XtekWe're using XO and Qwest (great for international people) Tier 1 bandwidth.
21:26.39cruciallybut hops add very little latency to distance
21:26.50cruciallyxo is not a tier 1 network by any stretch
21:27.06cruciallyqwest is
21:27.08ElunaticSeriously, what lame ass geek pissing contest is this?
21:27.19kd3|netbooksnagged some popcorn from downstairs to watch
21:27.34Xteklol Elunatic, I give up
21:27.43XtekPeople need something to bitch about I guess. :)
21:27.51kd3|netbookaw, don't give up. I need a reason to eat this popcorn
21:28.30cruciallyis proud of wikias cdn
21:29.49ElunaticAnd I'm guessing Xtek is proud of Curse's
21:30.12cruciallyElunatic: they don't have one :p
21:34.15ElunaticShit, what the hell are we gonna do people..?
21:36.29pcj_2gives g0urra a towel
21:36.49g0urrawhips with it
21:51.49ElunaticOh, I go away for 20 minutes and everything just stops.
21:51.52ElunaticMore fighting!
21:54.52g0urraI have a whipping towel now though
21:54.56g0urraand I'm not afraid to use it
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