IRC log for #wowwiki on 20081001

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00:38.24Eraclitowell, /b/lizz buffed rogues. oh, they SO needed it
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01:05.22Sky2042_afkwonders at Kirkburn|sleep.
01:05.57Kirkburn|sleepIt's only cause someone alerted me elsewhere that it's over 9000
01:06.39Kirkburn|sleepAnd yet, mxs still manages to be nowhere :P
01:08.13Adysthere arent many changes
01:08.17Adyspatch is like 23mb
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01:20.01*** topic/#wowwiki is Welcome to #wowwiki, please read | UI&Macros: #wowuidev | CVN: #cvn-wikia-wowwiki | | IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAANNNND
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01:35.00AdysKirkburn|sleep: engb
01:35.09Adysenus is a lot smaller
01:36.04Kirkburn|sleepI know - must mean lots of locale stuff
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03:32.34kd3so apparently wowwiki looks like ass in chrome
04:04.57jaxdahlany horde here on lich king?
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04:52.28mxsmxs is now here :P
04:52.34mxsoh well
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05:21.03kd3holy hell at alexstrasza's new humanoid model
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05:39.38mxsvery few achievement changes :
05:39.42mxsmainly questnumbers
05:46.34BagginswwwI don't think he understands :p
05:46.58Fisker-kissed mxs btw
05:46.59Bagginswwwwell let me fill you in... his idea is that he can use
05:47.10Bagginswwwrpg statistics to measure the size of th eplanet
05:47.13Bagginswwwof azeroth
05:47.26Bagginswwwnow the quote he uses
05:47.57Bagginswwwis zep trip from the Sunwell
05:48.01Bagginswwwall the way to
05:48.10Bagginswwwtip of Stranglethorn vale
05:48.14Bagginswwwand that it took 80 days
05:48.35Bagginswwwand that zeps travel 500 miles in 12 hours
05:48.50Dotted[05:32:32] [@kd3]: so apparently wowwiki looks like ass in chrome <- only if you use adblock
05:48.50Bagginswwwnow that basically means, if they spent 12 hours a day to sleep
05:49.03Bagginswwwand only travelled 500 miles a day
05:49.19Bagginswwwthen it would be 40,000 miles from tip of SV to the sunwell :p
05:49.26Bagginswwwthat's unusually huge...
05:49.34kd3uh... no way
05:49.43Dotteduh yes way
05:49.57Bagginswwwthere is no way people could walk that
05:50.10kd3earth's only ~25,000 miles around
05:50.23mxsI love it when people try to argue against something in a fantasy world because it isn't realisitc
05:50.26mxserr realistic
05:50.45Bagginswwwwell the problem is he's trying to read too much into a editor's game mechanic in the rpg
05:50.57Bagginswwwkd3 I'd like your help on this
05:51.07Bagginswwwmaybe together we can explain to him the absurdity of his idea
05:51.48BagginswwwYou couldn't walk 40,000 milesin four years :p
05:52.44BagginswwwA zeppelin can cover about 500 miles in a 12-
05:52.44Bagginswwwhour day of travel, allowing the crew time to
05:52.44Bagginswwwrest and make any necessary repairs.
05:52.53Bagginswwwthat's one of the quotes
05:52.55kd3you going back and forth on the /Mentor page?
05:53.09Bagginswwwback and forth?
05:53.19kd3where's this discussion taking place?
05:53.21BagginswwwOne Guild expedition using the airborne
05:53.21Bagginswwwvantage point to confirm the details of maps drawn
05:53.21Bagginswwwby Poyli Stonesole managed to cover that pioneer’s
05:53.21Bagginswwwtrail in just under eighty days!
05:53.30Bagginswwwthere's the other quote he used to do his "math"
05:53.35kd3nvm, found it
05:53.36Bagginswwwwhich he believes is "accurate scale" :p
05:54.23Bagginswwwso ya those are the two quotes my maht isn't off right?
05:55.01Bagginswwwand 40,000 (if they made 12 hour stops) to 80,000 (assuming they didn't stop) is absurd beyond all reason, :p
05:55.14Bagginswwwthere is no way that a dwarf could walk that distance in four years
05:55.33Bagginswwwor case of other characters walking half that distance in a few days or weeks :p
05:55.50BagginswwwI mean say between Stormwind and Lordaeron
05:56.00Bagginswwwcounting the travel by boat
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06:03.03kd3aight, that's all I can think of at 2 am
06:05.13BagginswwwPoint of note I did the math that you refer to, and get an absurdly large number between Sunwell Grove and Booty Bay (20,000 miles with 12-hour stops, and 40,000 miles if they don't make stops)... I mean that's astronomically larger than Earth... You wouldn't be able to walk that in four years... even if you could walk none stop with no rest... Certainly doesn't fit in with the facts we know about people traveling the distance be
06:05.14Bagginswwwtween say Stormwind and Lordaeron in much less time than that, a couple of weeks at the most.Baggins (talk) 05:59, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
06:05.17Bagginswwwya posted that
06:06.43Bagginswwwalthough it would be comparable to traveling from top of canada to bottom tip of south america :p
06:06.51Bagginswwwand that's not 25,000 miles :p
06:09.10BagginswwwI don't know what the distance for that would be :p
06:09.40kd3fires up google maps
06:09.44ghazrilla-shatteanyone play on shattered hand?
06:13.23Bagginswwwoh more amusingly he took the sentence out of context
06:13.32Bagginswwwthey weren't travelign straight for 80 days
06:13.52Bagginswwwthey were taking the time to confirm details on a map
06:13.57Bagginswwwyou don't travel 500 miles an hour to do that
06:14.16ghazrilla-shattedoes anyone?
06:14.24kd3probably not in here
06:14.29kd3with only ~50 users to choose from
06:14.39ghazrilla-shattehaha good point :P
06:14.47ghazrilla-shattewhat server u play on kd3
06:14.52kd3medivh us
06:15.01ghazrilla-shattehey my friend plays on there
06:18.01jaxdahlbirthday problem
06:18.16jaxdahlthe odds aren't bad that someone here also plays on a server you play on
06:18.29kd3rolls his eyes
06:18.30jaxdahlthe odds are pretty bad that YOU play on the same server I do
06:19.01jaxdahltrying to get wireless working on my laptop with ubuntu
06:20.13Lukianjaxdahl, that shouldn't be too hard these days
06:21.19jaxdahlit's a relatively new wireless chipset
06:21.27jaxdahlso i'm having to use intrepid ibex
06:21.48jaxdahltrying this:
06:22.58jaxdahlwonders how much erotic fan art is going to be produced now of alexstrasza
06:23.10kd3entirely too much
06:28.39jaxdahl*compile faster*
06:31.43jaxdahlhmm, doesn't want to unload the modules
06:33.27Dottedkd3 can never be too much much
06:33.32Dottedrule 34 and all
06:37.49jaxdahlit worked
06:38.12jaxdahli had to manually unload the modules that depended on the ones it was trying to unload in 'make unload'
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07:12.36g0urrait's quite over 9000.
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11:18.07RicaneliteGood Morning everyone!
11:23.09g0urramorning Ricanelite
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11:43.49Ricanelitenm just trying to figure out what character i want to start in
11:46.39g0urranelf hunter
11:47.26Ricanelitei was going to go with that and also looking at Night Elf/Druid?
11:47.40winkillername it Stereotype
11:47.42winkiller(the hunter)
11:47.59winkillerthat's what it is
11:48.10sacarasceveryone has a nelf hunter
11:48.23winkiller -> chars by race and class
11:48.25Ricaneliteoh so i dont want that
11:48.51winkillerbut Alliance only NE can be druids, and only Draenei can be Shaman, and more people play Alliance
11:49.01winkillerso the only "choice" class, NE hunter is #1
11:49.22winkillerTroll Warrior is like least popular :D
11:50.19winkiller(that table is not 100% accurate, ofc)
11:59.20amrojaxdahl: why did you challenge rule 34 ><
11:59.26amroif you keep quiet about it it might not happen
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12:52.01LucidFoxIf I admire my character's body, does this count as narcissism?
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12:56.48winkillerbut as a twisted mind
12:56.49winkillerif it
12:56.59winkillerif it's neither human or nelf
12:57.23winkillerwell,female orcs are also ok I guess
12:57.38winkillerjust the unhealthy skin tone
12:57.47winkillerbut cows = zoophiliac
12:57.52winkillerundead = necrophiliac
12:57.58winkillergnomes = midgeto..whatever
12:58.11winkillerdraenei = zoophiliac again I guess
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12:58.31winkillerblood elf = hello to bulimia
13:03.47LucidFoxwinkiller> female draenei
13:03.53LucidFoxHow so?
13:06.26*** join/#wowwiki LucidFox (n=sikon@wikia/Sikon)
13:07.19winkillergoat :P
13:07.26winkillergoat horns ;)
13:08.03winkillerso many "paling" chars here
13:08.26winkiller=eel in most scandinavian labguages
13:08.50winkillersaid most
13:09.54g0urrain norwegian it's ålefisk/ålefisker, in danish it's ålefisk
13:10.16winkilleryeah sorry, just looked it up
13:10.20winkillerwas only dutch
13:10.35winkillerand afrikaans aopparently
13:11.13winkillerstill too pissed :<
13:12.29winkillerwhat does whale translate to then?
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13:33.41LucidFoxwinkiller> So, why zoophilia? (Sorry if you replied earlier... I didn't see it because of the stupid connection)
13:43.29g0urralooks cozy, doesn't it? :p
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13:53.04Fisker-why so g0urra?
13:54.57RagestormAll the ice, the ruins... quite cozy.
13:55.13RagestormIf you like ice and ruins, of course
14:07.24KirkburnAnd good morning
14:07.53Kalrothmorning Kirky baby
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15:45.59Kirkburng0urra, nice new model
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15:46.22KirkburnI have no idea if you already linked it here - but for Bagginsww:
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15:57.24g0urrahello Lucah
15:57.36Lucahwhat's up.
15:59.24g0urraKirkburn, are the yellow areas at "gaming" to the top left and "more" to the top right gone for you too?
16:00.53KirkburnLooks like a URL was changed
16:02.13KirkburnI'll fix
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16:10.29Kirkburng0urra, should be fixed now when CSS updates
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16:35.53KirkburnYay, I've got my flight to BlizzCon booked
16:38.43KyleH`Congrats!  ... that only took a month longer than it needed to :P
16:38.53g0urraI wish I could go too ;_;
16:38.58DottedThe job queue length is currently 111260
16:40.20kd3111k transclusions of tooltip or is the wiki still working through the cost change too?
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16:44.46g0urraI don't know, I didn't check before I edited tooltip
16:47.15KirkburnKyleH`, :D
16:47.17Fisker-Kirkburn you won't get to blizzcon
16:47.23Fisker-i will take your identity
16:48.30KirkburnFairly sure you're not supposed to tell me
16:49.02Fisker-i'm confident
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16:56.18OmenHey guys.  Would you all mind if I copied the ensuing conversation and used it for my English Language assignment?  I'm examining the language of online gaming
16:56.33OmenI feel it's best to get consent first
16:57.48LucahAre you kidding?
16:57.57Adys... in a wow channel?
16:58.02Omennot at all.
16:58.16LucahWell I'm in no position to say anything but go for it. Enjoy your F. :D
16:58.18Adyswe're gonna have to kickban Fisker- then
16:58.31Omenwell, i dont play WoW anymore, so i cant get any actual in-game chatting
16:58.50Omenfigure the next best thing is IRC xD
16:58.57mxs"the language of online gaming" ? You must be joking. But as to your question, what purpose does it serve ? You are not gonna get all the participants here to reply to you, and assuming consent by silence on IRC is folly at best
16:59.25amro~sexleg Omen
16:59.26infobotOmen has sex leg
16:59.34amrothat kind of language?
16:59.37mxsIRC language differs wildly from in-game language, which differs wildly from general chat to guild chat to whispers
17:00.04mxsbesides, pcj will just draw it all into the gutter
17:00.31Omenin hindsight, IRC was a very bad idea
17:00.31mxsthough I'm sure Fisker- will manage to troll the hell out of you by quoting Kant, soon
17:01.15mxsgood luck with your homework though. Oh, and as for WoW chat : trial account are available.
17:01.23Adyshe's gone
17:01.27mxsyeah, noticed
17:01.33amroI love that
17:01.39mxsthe language of online gaming ...
17:01.44amrobut still doesn't beat:
17:01.50amroAnyone here?
17:02.14mxsyou forgot the "you all suck" before (parts)
17:02.44mxsthough the best would have to be an insult before /ignore (in irc or in WoW, doesn't matter)
17:02.59mxsyou reall show your opponent who's boss by having him send his retort into the bitbucket
17:03.07mxserr really
17:03.36Adys* Randomdude has joined the guild.
17:03.38Adys[Guild] [Randomdude]: HI ANY1 HERE
17:03.43Adys* Randomdude has left the guild.
17:04.03LucahWell to be fair.
17:04.08Adys"if wow was IRC", part 1
17:04.10LucahGuilds where people just APPEAR ALL THE TIME suck anyway. :I
17:04.19KirkburnAdys, lol
17:04.36KirkburnIt's 3am, WHY IS NO-ONE TALKING
17:04.49Adys3am in my ex guild, you had a lot of people online
17:05.08mxs3am in my guild, I rob the bank
17:05.22AdysInteresting goldspam on trade chat
17:05.31Adysperhaps something subliminal in it but
17:05.46Adysthey give 3 lines about how good their service is, how many people use it etc etc
17:05.50Adysbut dont give any name or URL
17:05.55mxsnice .<
17:05.56mxserr :>
17:06.10mxswe had one spell out their url in dead gnomes
17:06.47mxsi.e. in front of the bank in ironforge, you'd have about twelve dozen dead gnomes perfectly arranged spelling out their website
17:07.01mxstook a while for GMs to fix that
17:07.26ANTRatthats impressive
17:07.44amroAdys: waiting for whispers perhaps?
17:07.55mxsI assume they used a bot with free movement and just drop em from high on the z axis
17:07.59Fisker-They were probably filtered
17:08.19amroyeah they drop the URL because of filtering
17:08.32Fisker-Nah i mean their url was probably filtered
17:08.35Adysthe message is not sent
17:08.40Fisker-so they'll have to come up with a new site or another way to write the site
17:08.44Adysif the url is filtered
17:08.47amrowhat adys said
17:08.53ANTRatit may be 2 part message/spam
17:08.53Fisker-"3 lines" = 3 messages
17:08.58Adystry sending ingame
17:09.12Adysno its a 1 message contianing 3 lines.
17:09.15mxsthey filtered that ?
17:09.25Fisker-Then they still probably ran out of space
17:09.29amroyeah they filter crappy sites
17:09.33Fisker-a lot of stuff is filtered mxs >:3
17:09.42mxsFisker-: wirebrain ain't :>
17:10.08Adysthey filter http://(.*)mmo(.*)\.(*.) afaik
17:10.14Adys.* even
17:11.06mxsit's not like goldsellers can easily pay a new domain from less than one sale, and set it up in seconds
17:11.13mxsprobably less work than setting up the spambots
17:11.51mxssurprised none of em use tinyurl
17:11.52Adysdomain names are lol
17:11.58amrodunno why they don't just filter all URLs from trail accounts
17:12.15mxsamro: trial accounts are severely limited
17:12.26mxsbut wow phishing is alive and kicking
17:12.43Fisker-that's exactly it Adys :P
17:12.59Fisker-They try to filter out common words
17:13.00mxsif blizz actually cared, they'd put in authenticators into every retail wotlk box
17:13.06Fisker-Which is why wirebrain isn't filtered etc.
17:13.17Adysseriously mxs, i doubt that and I hope not
17:13.23Adysthe authenticator is a pita
17:13.27mxsyes, it is
17:13.33Fisker-People would just refuse to use them
17:13.43Fisker-Unless they linked cd-key to authenticator and forced it activated
17:13.45mxsa lot more would be using them that are now
17:13.56Adysmoney wasted on something people should be buying
17:14.05Adys(which they usually throw away later on too)
17:14.09Fisker-Not to mention that they would expect to make somewhere in the region of atleast ~5 million authenticators
17:14.18amroif they're stupid enough to have their account stolen they're too stupid to use the authenticator
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17:14.39mxsamro: so you never installed adobe flash then ?
17:14.53Adysthe word you shouldnt have said
17:14.59amroit gets me...
17:15.16mxsdon't get me wrong, I hate flash :
17:15.20amrobut yeah, i do have Flash CS3 Professional. the whole shebang
17:15.27mxsI'd very much like SVG + Ecmascript to be usable
17:15.46amrobut I've never been compromised
17:15.51mxsor, hell, smil
17:15.54amroand the same goes for you im sure
17:16.18mxstrue, but I am not about to claim that I am immune to any such attack -- that would be rather arrogant
17:16.34AdysI'm immune to such attacks and you all suck
17:16.46amroyeah, but you're careful enough that you won't be caught in one unless it's targeted at you specifically
17:16.59amrobesides, I wouldn't run wow from windows anyway
17:17.17amro(even if I wanted to. I'd get crappy framerates)
17:17.56amroand most people were probably attacked from another angle
17:18.02mxsamro: that's just the thing ... People trust several sites implicitly. Most sites run advertising. Many include flash. Some trusted sites will need flash enabled for features. Ad companies are NOT known for their stringent security checks on the ads their customers give them
17:18.39amroyeah but it was fixed
17:18.39amroa long time ago too
17:18.39mxsyeah, phishing scams are really common
17:18.42mxsamro: honestly, I have not one iota of faith in that codebase
17:19.01amroI have even less faith in it, but they did plug that specific hole at least
17:19.32mxsthat is rather irrelevant
17:19.53mxsif you want to be scared for a bit, sample the visitors of any large website
17:20.01mxscheck the versions of stuff they use
17:20.02amroI know
17:20.04winkillerany sub rogue near?
17:20.21mxsthe version of flash is usually outdated, even if they run the latest browser
17:20.23amrobut here's where you forgot what I said earlier
17:20.29amro[18:15] <amro> if they're stupid enough to have their account stolen they're too stupid to use the authenticator
17:20.31mxs(which is way too uncommon)
17:20.39amrothose people are stupid and wouldn't be helped by the authenticator
17:21.06mxsI'd posit that it's not stupid not to upgrade all your software weekly
17:21.14mxs(or expect that that's necessary)
17:21.39amroit's stupid to not upgrade to fix a  SERIOUS security flaw, especially one advertised on WoW's login screden
17:21.44mxswhich is one reason I really, really, REALLY like the groundwork Chrome is doing in that area
17:22.19amrostabs Adys
17:22.23amrono chrome for you!
17:22.27amroat least not yet
17:22.38Adyscxchromium works kinda well
17:22.51amro'kinda' can mean lots of things
17:22.56mxsthough capabilities on Windows are pretty much unheard of elsewhere
17:22.58mxswhich is a shame
17:23.18amromxs: ?
17:23.19mxshell, top of your head, name an equivalent of SELinux or AppArmor on Win32
17:23.37Fisker-why do everyone have to make bomberman clones for PSP, Wii, etc. and not the PC? :(
17:23.38amrocapabilities? or vulnerabilities?
17:23.41mxsamro: capabilities as in very fine-grained process/role capabilities
17:23.46Adyskinda = its slower than firefox
17:23.54Adysbut it never crashed so far
17:23.57amrothat's a big kinda :)
17:23.58mxsvulnerabilities really don't matter much if capabilities are set right
17:24.11amroyeah and if they're wrong it creates vulnerabilities
17:24.15amrowhich is the case
17:24.32mxsno, that's precisely it
17:25.10mxsif your application segfaults with a nifty overflow or other such thing and the syscaps for that process are set properly, it can't do much damage
17:25.36mxsthere is no good reason why flash should need access to the filesystem at all, for instance, at least in the default case -- or even most libraries
17:25.43mxslet alone many system calls
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17:26.03mxsJava got that partly right, but not really
17:26.10amroflash sucks. and the filesystem access is there for a coupl of reasons
17:26.17mxsno valid ones.
17:26.23amrocaching and direct file access for local applications
17:26.26amroboth are valid
17:26.31mxsin 99.998% of all flash use today, it is not needed.
17:26.39amroI use it all the time
17:26.56amrowould be impractical to test my code otherwise
17:26.58mxsdoes it need to be on by default ?
17:27.06amrothat's another issue
17:27.09mxson every installation everywhere ?
17:27.26mxsand if you need it for caching, is there any valid reason not to chroot it to that directory ?
17:27.50mxsThe sad thing is that I doubt anybody at Adobe or Macromedia ever even considered that question
17:27.50amrowindows can't do that? (dunno, but I wouldn't be surprised)
17:27.59amroflash is a piece of crap
17:28.04amrothe stinkiest there ever was
17:28.17amrothe API is the worst part
17:28.23mxsdon't sell gwbasic short
17:28.26amroactually the debugger is worse
17:28.48mxsI am one of the people who actually loved
17:28.54amroI hate flash more because it monopolized interactive internet content
17:29.21amrotalking about flash debugger
17:29.37mxsyeah, and I am talking about MS-DOS 5.0
17:29.43mxsyou could code assembler in it !
17:29.48mxsa free assembler ! :>
17:30.00mxs(back when TASM or even MASM were $$$)
17:30.29amropoint is, people are dumb and will screw up
17:30.38amroyou can put as many failsafes as you want
17:30.45mxsof course you'd need to predict how many opcodes your code would need so as to set the jump address right :>
17:30.51amrothey'll just give their password to a phising email or whatever
17:31.09mxsbut saying that that's solely the responsibility of "people" is short-sighted
17:31.17amro'course not
17:31.33mxsit's as much a technological problem as that
17:31.38amrobut blizzard can't help windows being more vulnerable than a cheap whore
17:32.22mxsnot exactly true, but they are doing the bare minimum
17:32.36mxsplus the authenticator, which looks like a moneymaker more than anything else
17:32.41amrowhat else could they do?
17:32.55mxsUSB dongle
17:33.05mxswith a trail
17:33.47amrothat's something they don't have to do
17:33.49mxsi.e. you can only log in on the machine that has dongle with ID X if you set your account to that. Even if not, you can record dongle X's use in conjunction with the login attempt
17:33.59mxsexactly, so I said "bare minimum"
17:34.17mxswhich is OK, nobody else is doing any more either :)
17:34.21amrobare minimum sounds like they could do much more with minimal effort
17:34.24amrolol yeah
17:34.32mxswell, banks are
17:34.47amroactually you'd be surprised :)
17:35.00mxsand I'd really love to know whether I could make WoW patch itself with a rogue patch if I hijack
17:35.06amrosome banks are (were) quite insecure, dunno how they got away with it
17:35.14mxsok, decent banks
17:35.19amrobetter :)
17:35.32mxsall the German online banks use at least TANs
17:35.40amrobut banks bank their entire business on security of transactions
17:35.54mxsso even if you get to spy on the transactions, it is much harder to transfer money
17:36.03amroand a stolen bank account could ruin someone's life
17:36.10amrorather than their character's
17:36.14mxsand what do you dream of at night ?
17:36.16amroso there's much more incentive
17:36.27mxsbanks have almost NO incentive to keep your data secure
17:36.41mxsif they fuck up, YOU get to be the guy who has to restore his credit
17:36.55mxssocial engineering works well on banks, even to this day
17:36.59amroand YOU get to be the guy who ruins their reputation, while a rival bank touts their security
17:37.09mxsthey appear secure at a casual glance, but that's mostly just show
17:37.10amro(assuming an insecure web interface)
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17:37.50mxsactually, most banks I look at have given at least some thought to interface security, some even go too far
17:38.04mxsbut walk into one of their offices confidently
17:38.12mxsor get them on the phone posing as an old lady
17:38.28amrothat's not something that can be automatically exploited by a script
17:38.40amroI wouldn't consider it as bad as an insecure interfac
17:38.54mxshell, I can get credit cards in other people's names easily, with data not THAT hard to obtain (and data people would not expect to need to secure)
17:39.10amrothat's another subject entirely
17:39.20mxsno, but it is something that will cause the targeted party a lot of grief
17:39.20amrowe're talking about computer applications here
17:39.33mxsand the banks have no incentive to stop that from happening really
17:39.34amroit's something I'm not interested in arguing
17:40.10amroyea because it's something that affects a minority of their clients
17:40.28mxshehe :)
17:40.28mxshell, look at paypal
17:40.28mxsthere is a reason it's so successfull
17:40.28mxsit's easy to the point of being too easy and easily insecure
17:40.30mxsall you need is an email address and a password
17:40.32mxsmost people will use their main email address, so that's easy
17:40.44mxsand the password, I can name 10 people off the top of my head that would use a password I could guess in 3 tries
17:40.54amrothat's entirely their fault
17:40.56amroand not paypal's
17:41.09mxspartly their fault, yes
17:41.23amrobesides, the instructions are pretty clear on using a good password, so if you don't its your loss
17:41.46mxsthough I'd posit that the idea of a "password" is already leading people on the wrong track.
17:41.46amronope entirely theirs. don't use a guessable password
17:42.01mxsoh, that's easy for a techie to say.
17:42.16mxsfirst of all, it says "password" usually. As in ... a word.
17:42.29amroI wanted to save time by saying "good passwords"
17:42.30mxsit conjures up images of real-life applications of pass-words
17:42.42amroby "pretty clear" I meant it gave the criteria for a good password
17:42.50amroincludes numbers/etc
17:43.39amroat the end of the day, someone picking a bad password (regardless of how they were informed) is not a technological security issue
17:43.51mxswhich do not have the same problems as computer passwords do (you can give the same password to your fiancée as a safeword during sex and as the password at a bar -- compromising one will not lead to the other, really)
17:43.59winkillerkeylogger > good password
17:44.11amrothat's another topic
17:44.16amrowindows sucks
17:44.37mxspicking a good password and using it at more than one site is bad, too
17:44.42amroand they can't do anymore about that than blizzard, which is my point
17:44.53mxsbut then again, every site wants a password, and they all tell you not to write it down
17:45.11amroagain, it's up to the individual
17:45.21amroim talking about technical flaws here ><
17:45.28mxsthat's the easy way out, ignoring the problem :)
17:45.29amroexploitable vulnerabilities in software
17:45.39amroim not here to discuss the problem
17:45.43mxsit is a problem that should get help by a technological fix
17:45.54amroim here to discuss what blizzard can do to overcome windows's security flaws
17:46.08mxssome people tried (single-sign-on went into that direction, but so far all of those attempts are shitty, and NONE are universal)
17:46.09amroso don't go off on a tangent please :)
17:46.41mxswell, a usb dongle in every warcraft box would already help. Would cost them $2 or so,
17:46.59amrowhy would they?
17:47.14mxsit'll create other issues (replacement ? loss ? etc.), but it would make account theft a LOT harder
17:47.18amroa relatively small number get keylogged
17:47.20mxs(in the general case)
17:47.26amronot worth shipping millions of dongles
17:47.40Adysyou guys are still talking about this?
17:47.51amro~whalenuke Adys
17:47.52infobotACTION dons her radiation cloak and tinted glasses while a highly intelligent whale named Ray precipitates critical mass for uncontrolled nuclear fission around Adys with his mind powers.
17:48.07mxsamro: heh ... I wonder when the big botnet owners turn on the wow-phishers :P
17:48.08AdysI had time to order souvlakis, clean up the living room and fix a door
17:48.16mxs(or rather, loggers)
17:49.08mxsamro: but ok, non-hardware. How about letting people choose their IP range ?
17:49.22mxsor to make it better for non-techies : ISP
17:49.31mxsIt's easy to check an IP against an AS
17:50.54amromxs: you're thinking too much into this
17:51.16amroheck I can log on to any service with just a uname/password
17:51.49mxsthat's the easy way out "All the others do it, so we should, too" :)
17:52.01amrothat's not what I mant
17:52.26amroif it's good enough for the money in my paypal account, it's good enough for teh gold in my wow account
17:52.45mxspoint being that it isn't really good enough for the money in your paypal account :P
17:52.48amroif you want security, be careful and keep your yes open
17:53.33amroit certainly is.
17:53.56amroyou just need to protect that password, which you can do trivially
17:54.19winkillergief ssh key auth
17:54.27winkillerfor every damn login
17:54.43winkillerperfect for an MMO
17:55.01mxswinkiller: would not change a thing.
17:55.31mxswinkiller: keylogger or keyfilegrabber is synonymous, really
17:56.04mxsand the attack ssh auth protects against (mitm, eavesdroppers) just isn't a real factor for WoW
17:56.11DottedThe job queue length is currently 111264
17:56.12winkillermhm, tru
17:56.31winkillerunless you'd need to wait for those keyloggers at first
17:56.32amromxs: if you restrict by ISP, they'll route around it. or use a zombie. and if you pick your IP... anyone who would probably doesn't need to
17:56.40mxsthough I agree on one point, true smartcard capability would ROCK, even if it was optional
17:57.01amromxs: the real issue
17:57.14amroinstead of beating around the bush and using workarounds
17:57.17mxsamro: that's a lot harder to do already though. Have it log successful-password attempts from wrong ISPs, too, and warn the user on next login
17:57.26amrois to protect your system from unwanted software (keyloggers)
17:57.46mxs(hell, WoW does not even tell you how many attempts with a wrong password you had since oyu last logged in successfully)
17:57.53amroi mean, protect yourself all you want with complicated schemes, but if there's unwanted software on your computer you're screwed already in my book
17:58.07winkillerany news about mac keyloggers?
17:58.32amroworking around keyloggers is wasted effort
17:58.33mxsit's not complicated schemes I am after, and I'd argue they can be uncomplicated.
17:58.43amroI'd argue they're a waste of time
17:58.49mxsThough quite honestly, a smartcard would defeat any keylogger.
18:00.04amroyeah my linux system also defeats any keylogger out there
18:00.24amroblizzard doesn't want to wast time doing microsoft's work
18:00.37mxsamro: whether it is pointless or not really just depends on how high a value you set on your account security. I'd love the ability to set an IP range for my account, or the ability to use key-auth or the ability to use a smartcard.
18:01.09mxsamro, winkiller : that's a pretty arrogant stance to take. Neither Linux nor Mac OS X are immune to keylogging.
18:01.20winkillerI didn't make any stance
18:01.29winkillerI asked if there were reports about mac ones
18:01.30mxswinkiller: it sounded like a suggestive question :>
18:01.36winkillerbecause I never heard about it
18:01.46winkillerwith 5-10% mac players (my estimate) 8)
18:01.48amrothey are actually. unless you install them yourself. same thing as giving away your dongle
18:02.44mxsamro: so linux has a magic pill against buffer overflows ? The keyboard-input that arrives in userspace is somehow not susecptible to interception ?
18:02.45amrothere's little purpose in working around keyloggers if /unwanted software can be installed on your computer without your knowledge/
18:03.26mxscan happen just as easily on *ix-systems, though it's confined to user homedir usually :>
18:03.29amromxs: buffer overflows happen, they don't grant root acces though
18:03.41mxsroot access is not necessary to install executable code
18:03.41amrokeyboard input is interceptable, but i'd have to install that program
18:03.47amroand im careful about what to install
18:04.02amromxs: to make it undetectable and run automatically, it is
18:04.20mxsso you check the contents of .profile on every login ?
18:04.29amroyou know what
18:04.36mxsI did it !
18:04.37amrolinux is just as vulnrable
18:04.39amroWE ALL ARE
18:04.39mxsI made him mad !
18:04.53amrono you made me realize im wasting time when I should be working
18:05.00amrowith flash, would you believe
18:05.18amrobut seriously, you sound like you have a tinfoil hat
18:05.26mxsthough you are right, the security model on Windows blows even worse :>
18:05.31amroshow proof of a vulnerability instead of speaking hypothetically
18:05.34mxsit's my job to have a tinfoil hat
18:05.53amrotinfoil hats don't help. critical thinking does
18:05.58mxsthat line of thinking does not generate secure systems :>
18:06.18amroneither does considering everything to be insecure
18:06.19mxswell yeah, and critical thinking in the security field requires thinking of the worst-case scenario, first
18:06.31amroand that requires a proof of concept
18:06.45mxsactually, that is precisely what one should be doing, until you can prove to yourself that it's not
18:07.27amroyeah. enough work on that has be done to convince me, and at this point you'd need to show an exploit if you want to convince me otherwise
18:07.30mxsnot necessarily. I do not require a PoC of an exploit to get root privileges to consider BSD jails a good idea, even if what I am jailing is, to my knowledge, completely secure :)
18:07.31amroim not saying it's 100% immune
18:07.53amrobut it's secure enough to ward against unwanted software in 99% of cases
18:09.18mxsWell, let's assume I can find a buffer overflow somewhere in your browser chain and can con you into going to a prepared page (which is, frankly, not /that/ unbelievable; I doubt all the escalation-bugs are out of FireFox or any other browser or plugin, yet :)
18:09.33amroyeah, that's the 1%
18:09.57mxswell, that's the exact same thing happening on Windows for unwanted software
18:10.03amroopen source allows you to spot and exploit buffer overflows, but there are also people who are spotting and fixing them
18:10.10mxsother than "user error" with mindlessly pressing "ok"
18:10.28amroexcept windows uses administrator privileges by default, even in vista (which surprised me)
18:10.36amroso any damage is multiplied
18:10.51mxsif you are a multiuser machine
18:11.08mxswhich isn't the case in most cases. For most people, hosing the homedir is equivalent to hosing /
18:11.15amronot only that. it can screw with system  files, requiring a reinstall
18:11.36amroor hide itself well
18:11.37mxsbut malicious code, really, can already do a lot of harm with just user privileges
18:12.04amroyes, not using admin isn't a failsaf
18:12.11amroit's just the most basic thing you can do
18:12.41mxswell, if you don't know the signs, you'll never be the wiser with user-hidden files either. /tmp/... is a popular choice, as are whitespace-subdirs or, my favourite, a subdir in .kde/prefs/somelongpaththatlookslegitimate/.../blah.a
18:12.41amro(so if you're not doing that, you're either very confident or dont know what you're doing)
18:13.07amrothat's just obfuscation
18:13.10amroby hiding itself well
18:13.29amroI mean rootkit kind of hide
18:13.39mxsI know I don't check the consistency of .profile on every login, no the user X startup scripts, nor the KDE startup chain ... It is not that hard to hide stuff in there pretty well
18:13.52mxsbut nothing really does that on windows either
18:14.05amronope, but at least init.d would be safe
18:14.11mxsmost malware/spyware/crapware just hides in windows/system under a nondescript name
18:14.33amroif you get infected as admin it's much harder to clean out
18:15.27mxsthough even if only a useraccount is compromised, it's a good idea to try to prove that no escalation could have taken place
18:16.06mxslocal root exploits are not /that/ uncommon, especially in desktop environments :)
18:16.23amrothough this isn't relevant to my point, as I maintain the #1 priority is to keep malware out
18:16.27amrorather than keep it contained
18:16.43mxsbut that's beside the point anyway. I'd posit you can infect a linux user pretty effectively and rather well hidden to the "casual" look
18:16.59amroyeah if you target him specifically
18:17.00mxsthedifference being that you expect it to happen on windows
18:17.06AdysI killed 3 bosses in bt
18:17.11Adysreboot my soundcard
18:17.14Adysand you're still on it
18:17.15mxsand most linux users arrogantly expect it not to be possible on their system
18:17.30mxsmilw0rm is how old, now ? :P
18:17.32amroAdys: it's been 30 mins
18:17.58amromxs: linux users can be just as dumb as windows users
18:18.03mxsoh yes.
18:18.07amrobut you get my point
18:18.14mxsI have seen boxes so compromised it wasn't even funny :>
18:18.17amrothat it's much more secure, and that windows COULD be made at least as secure
18:18.50mxswell, to be fair, Windows does have some really fucking nifty security features
18:18.51amroand as long as it isn't, it's safe to say that linux is safer, even if it isn't 100% saf
18:18.56mxsjust most people never use them
18:19.19mxsjust as most people on linux never use the really fucking nice security features
18:19.28amromxs: exactly the problem. windows especially should do everything for the user, as a lot of them know about as much about computers as they do about astrophysics
18:19.33mxsor do YOU use acls on your filesystem ? :>
18:19.59mxs(or, hell, a sensible SELinux profile for firefox :>)
18:20.16amroif I told you about my security practices you would cry. my system is one of the least secure in the world, I've been hiding behind the fact that
18:20.27amrono one wants to attack m
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18:20.32amrobut I'm aware of it
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18:20.43mxsoh, I hear that from windows users all the time
18:20.43amroand if I needed to I would secure it
18:20.57mxs"I can use the same password everywhere, who would want to attack ME ?!?"
18:21.12mxs(and I stylised that, but that is the gist you get out of MANY people)
18:21.18amroI'm talking about my installation
18:21.33mxsyeah, same for them "Firewall ? Why ? Nothing important here ..."
18:21.51amroi know my exposed attacks vectors, and I know i don't need to protect them just yet
18:22.10mxshehe :)
18:22.11amromy server on the other hand is secured =)
18:22.30mxsmy most exposed attack vector right now is the fact that I have a non-NATed IPv6 subnet
18:22.38mxswith a couple of Windows boxen on it
18:22.43mxsthey have their firewall on, but still :>
18:22.47amrobut the difference between me and joe user, joe doesn't know how to protect himself. it needs to be done for him
18:22.56amroand windows users expect things to be done automagically
18:23.33winkiller^+ubuntu ;)
18:23.45winkillerans mac
18:23.49mxswell ... joe blow sixpack doesn't actually CARE if he is compromised, so long as WoW starts, Word still works, the porn still plays, etc.
18:23.55amrobut windows most of all
18:24.25amroexactly, which is why he gets keylogged. (wow still starts :))
18:24.45mxsso joe blow sixpack with a compromised ubuntu is even more dangerous, since his system won't crash as easily while evildoer xy is doing crap :>
18:25.22amroyeah, but the latter is less likely
18:25.40mxsoh, and just to jolt you awake and scare the fucking living daylights out of you : There is talk of online voting in pilot projects.
18:25.47mxsPresidential elections, no less.
18:26.05amrothat would be scary
18:26.12amrobut elections here are rigged anyway
18:26.40mxsthat's almost as scary as votingcomputers (or "machines" as the marketing experts dubbed them)
18:27.47amrothe thing about insecure software/hardware is that most likely the developers didn't have security in mind when designing. a from-scratch application designed to be secure can be very secure
18:28.05amrowindows needs a security redesign
18:28.20amroit got one in vista, but it doesn't play nice with all applications
18:28.23winkillerdidnt vista get one? officially
18:28.30amroI had to disable it
18:28.34mxsyes and no. Security is ALWAYS a tradeoff with convenience. Windows does have rather nice security features, but if you turn them on, convenience goes in the shitter
18:28.40amrobecause i couldn't save games in chernobyl with it on ><
18:29.28amromxs: mostly convenience for the coder (fixing buffer overflows etc isn't inconvenient for the user)
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18:29.52mxsbut yeah, secure coding is still not something you learn in your first programming course. Hell, you don't even learn it in university in the vast majority of programs.
18:30.04amrobottom line is that windows could be much more secure than it is now with relatively little bother for the end user
18:30.05mxsamro: no, also convenience for the user.
18:30.32mxsa strict separation of the user context and the admin context is more secure, but also more inconvenient.
18:30.51amroas long as it's worth it :)
18:30.59winkillerseems to not work on windows
18:31.13amropeople need licenses to drive cars. they shouldn't expect to use computers without a crash course
18:31.14winkillerwow or war, one of them "exec as admin or gtfo"
18:31.29mxsamro: that line of thinking will NEVER be the right one.
18:31.36winkilleror some other mmo? doesn't matter
18:31.44mxssorry, but anything that relies on "user education" is doomed to fail.
18:31.46amromxs: you read too much into what I said
18:32.16mxsamro: you used the car and driving license analogy :P
18:32.24amroyeah that was bad
18:32.31amrosince you really really need a licence to drive
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18:32.51mxsthe difference being that the benefits of that are rather easy to spot : police doesn't lock you up, you get to use a car without killing yourself in the process, etc. :)
18:33.00amroyeah, bad analogy
18:33.20mxsever worked in tech support ?
18:33.33mxs(and if you did, my condolences :)
18:34.03amrono, but I've had my fair share of pain doing family tech support. (including fixing a laptop through webcam... God never again)
18:34.21mxsamro: yeah, family sucks.
18:34.24mxsYou can't even say no.
18:34.31amroor quit :(
18:34.51mxsUsually, I take the pain to talk them through downloading and installing UltraVNC or some such
18:35.00mxstakes 20-30 minutes to get to the point where I move their mouse
18:35.10winkillerbest line is: oh, you're studying computer science, fix my comp..
18:35.12mxsat which point the fixing-of-the-problem takes 5 minutes.
18:35.18amrobut I do see what you're getting at
18:35.21winkillerI knew SO much more about hardware before starting :P
18:35.52mxswinkiller: "Well, /here/'s your problem ... The turing machine ran out of tape."
18:35.55amrousers suck, and expecting them to be smart is doomed to fail
18:36.17amrobut my point was that you can't avoid inconveniencing the user
18:36.19winkillermxs: still works most of the time :P
18:36.21mxsThere will always be users that suck even worse than the average sucker, too ... :)
18:36.24amroand some of it is necessary for security
18:36.30mxsyes, some of it is
18:36.49amroi'd rather inconvenience them with separating user/root than with losing all their data from an infection
18:36.57mxsbut Microsoft has done a GREAT job at training users to blindly click "OK" or "CANCEL" or "IGNORE" just to get rid of that "annoying" modal window
18:37.08amroyeah, that's pretty bad
18:37.16amrolesson learned: modals don't work
18:37.17mxsthe first time, they will read what it says
18:37.18amroa bit too late
18:37.20mxsmaybe even the second
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18:37.27amroa lot don't even read the first time
18:37.34mxsbut after the third, every single window that pops up with a symbol they saw at some point, they will never read
18:37.34amrothey just click away
18:38.16mxs(which, cynically speaking, is a good thing -- makes it easy to show that click-through licenses and EULAs are unenforcable :>)
18:38.48amroI guess the "type root password" dialogs are exploitable... you could make an app that mimicks the dialog, and quite a few might fall for it (even without the blackout effect)
18:39.06mxswinkiller: at some point, just remark "Holy Knuth ! Your computer contains the solution to P=NP !", then run away screaming
18:39.06Lukianwhat's the easiest way to demote an entire rank of characters in a guild, down a rank?
18:39.35mxslukian : there isn't really more than one way.
18:39.48amrorofl mxs
18:39.49mxsamro: oh, I used that in school.
18:39.52amrothat just might work
18:39.52Lukianmxs, I was hoping for an addon.. but the outlook is bleak.
18:40.09mxsamro: turbo pascal let me create a login screen that mimicked the novell netware login screen EXACTLY.
18:40.20mxsit would just display "password wrong" and then go to the real screen
18:40.43mxsThe teacher was ... less than amused at the presentation.
18:40.55mxsIt was titled "Passwords"
18:41.34mxsI really should have patented that. Phishing is a big money game now, that would have been nice royalties ! :>
18:45.14amroyou're probably familiar with gutmann's paper on that issue, it's separate from technological vulnerabilities
18:47.36mxsnot sure :)
18:48.08mxsI need to churn through more papers again, haven't been keeping up on cryptostuff for a year or two
18:48.21mxsin any case, off to eat :)
18:48.33mxsBlizzard better not Blitz-patch tonight :>
18:48.46amrothough the issues on are more important
18:54.19mxshadn't seen those slides before, but from skimming it he makes the usual case for security and usability and the interaction between the two
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18:57.18amromxs: yep. the solutions isn't to throw out security
18:57.39amrooh great
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20:38.30foxlit"Sylvanas fought and finally slew Varimathras, retaking her Throne at a cost not yet forseen."
20:38.39foxlitWe foresee foreseeing it in the near future.
20:38.56Kirkburn|afkYou forsee foreseeing for the forsaken?
20:39.57foxlitI guess you could foresee that.
20:45.44Kirkburn|afkI want to know how has come up with Chain Reaction by Young Divas as a song for me to listen to
20:46.05LukianKirkburn|afk, do you agree with it?
20:46.55Kirkburn|afkIt feels a little like it choosing Donny Osmond or S Club 7
20:47.34Kirkburn|afkThe rest of the music it has chosen is indie rock/electronica ... not pop :P
20:47.47foxlitKirkburn|afk: random(1, getSongCount())
20:48.04DottedThe job queue length is currently 111577
20:48.08foxlitwell, that, or correlation statistics, which you really don't want to bother with
20:48.21foxlitg0urra broke the wiki, clearly :)
20:48.33g0urraof course. I love to break stuff <3
20:48.56Kirkburn|afk111264 was the earlier count :/
20:49.11foxlitIt's so not falling
20:49.26Kirkburn|afkIf it doesn't move by tomorrow, I'll file a report
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20:49.43foxlitIt's probably moving, just at 1 Hz
20:49.45foxlitAnd we're still adding items to cost. Fun <3
20:56.22g0urralet's see then
20:56.25DottedThe job queue length is currently 111588
21:00.06Eraclitoguys, does anyone know if 4th october is inclued in brewfest? or it ends in the night between 3 and 4?
21:02.09Eraclitothanks, i need 4th for the quest item
21:02.34Eraclito(i already got regalia, boots, hat, gnome glasses... and the kodo, obv)
21:06.17Fisker-why so loladin g0urra ?
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21:06.57Fisker-tell me g0urra
21:10.06winkillerwhy no security discussion anymore? :>
21:11.06Fisker-i nerfed the holy tree
21:11.07Fisker-oh wait
21:11.10Fisker-too late
21:38.01soufronis legal maven
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