IRC log for #wowwiki on 20080901

00:00.51g0urragnight
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01:05.24DottedAdys im still level 70, i win?
01:05.44Adyslike pcj's mom
01:06.17Dottedshe's great btw
01:07.21Dottedoff to bed nn
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02:03.36pcjhttp://cbs13.com/local/dennys.amputation.cocaine.2.807272.html
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02:34.46kisatibinghi
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02:44.47kisatibingWhen you come out of anger of the king of the Rich
02:47.30kisatibingWrath of the Lich King
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03:15.00LucidFoxUh... hello?
03:18.03pcjhi lucidfox :)
03:21.05LucidFoxWhat would be the best teens zone for a draenei on an RP server - Bloodmyst, Darkshore, or Westfall?
03:21.51pcjwhat difference does RP server have to do with leveling
03:22.18pcji prefer darkshore over bloodmyst in any case
03:22.18LucidFoxRP opportunities :)
03:22.24LucidFoxNo idea, that's why I was asking
03:23.06pcjwestfall is probably the best for RP because it's so close to goldshire
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04:46.15Adyshttp://www.thottbot.com/i16171
04:46.18Adyswheres that from?
04:55.32sancuslooks like something from beta
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06:16.33earthmeLonWhat the hell
06:16.43earthmeLonWhen did they fix ghost walking?
06:18.03kisatibingWhat are you talking about
06:21.57kisatibing#directx
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06:29.12winkillerghost walking?
06:29.17KirkburnTarget dummies in cities, Adys? :D
06:29.23Adysyea
06:29.26Adyssort of
06:29.32Adysthe ones like in theramore / shattered halls
06:29.40Adyslvl 1, really nice to test dmg and stuff
06:29.41KirkburnCool
06:29.49KirkburnOdd that SW vaults has lost the gate
06:29.49Adysnear the trainers too :)
06:29.59AdysI think they meant to remove the thing entirely
06:30.07Adysbecause they removed everything behind and put hills
06:30.12Adyswell go see by yourself its a bit odd
06:31.08Adysmagine a character named doctor with the first aid doctor title, and in the guild Give me the news
06:31.08AdysDoctor Doctor
06:31.08Adys<Give me the news>
06:31.22KirkburnI mean housing, not vaults
06:31.28KirkburnVaults is the island
06:32.08KirkburnActually ... which grid /do/ you mean?
06:32.14Adysthat one
06:32.20KirkburnHousing?
06:32.26Adysprobably
06:32.35Adysthey never actually said what they meant to do with it
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06:41.50winkillerAdys: I find my Rogue with that title a little more disturbing
06:42.11Adyswhich?
06:42.15winkillerDoctor
06:42.24Adysoh
06:42.33winkillerand anyone got an idea if the first NE druid will have Arch Druid, (tree lover) and (first 80) all 3?
06:42.46winkilleras in.. so many titles, but the first to 80 will get 3 of them
06:42.56Adystree lover wut?
06:43.05winkillerfirst NE to 80, whatever it's called
06:43.10Adysah
06:43.11Adysyea
06:43.14winkillerthe titles overlap
06:43.16winkillerwhich sucks
06:43.17Adysid guess tho
06:43.59winkillerso if you'r unlucky on your realm 5-7 people share all titles
06:45.04winkillerwell, ok - one per race. and all class titles are moot
06:45.25winkillerso I have to level my troll first, as there are fewest of those :P
06:46.43Adyshuman mage here
06:46.48Adysgonna have a fun time :/
06:46.52winkillersowwy
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06:57.55kisatibingah ghost walking
06:59.05kisatibingshadowstep bug?
06:59.12Adys?
06:59.40winkillerhttp://de.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ1st1Vw2kY
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07:32.32KirochiHello w0rld
07:33.45KirochiAckis what's your death knight's name?
07:52.18winkillerPinkfluffybunny probably
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08:45.41g0urra'morning
08:45.56sacaraschi
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09:13.13Fisker-slaps g0urra around a bit with a large trout
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09:55.01*** join/#wowwiki Reign[A] (n=reign@212.47.107.29)
09:57.02Reign[A]hello, maybe someone already had this issue, ive tried BC trial, it expired and now i wanna buy it online just as i did with WoW, but the only option ive got is to write down the key i have on retail box, problem is i dont wanna any boxes and just wanna pay to blizzard and play, now ive red that such option is possible and that when my BC trial would expire, i should get an option to pay directly from an account management site, but somehow i cant, any ide
10:01.53mxsReign[A]: this would be something you should take up with Blizzard support or their billing department
10:02.08Reign[A]k, thnx
10:06.19KirkburnMorning
10:06.46Fisker-slaps Kirkburn around a bit with a large trout
10:07.13Fisker-i need to play spore
10:07.15Fisker-giev and get
10:11.51KirochiIs my time relevant?
10:11.58KirochiI say, ugt is so out of fashion
10:12.51Fisker-someone deleted ~uft :(
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10:15.59g0urrawhy so world server crash Fisker-
10:16.08Fisker-dunno
10:16.11Fisker-why so free mass effect?
10:17.31Fisker-it was kinda >:3 actually
10:17.44Fisker-Bought Mass Effect through the US EA Store
10:17.53Fisker-because why so regionfags EA?
10:18.12Fisker-But i obviously ordered it as someone living in fake st. 123 beverly hills
10:18.24Fisker-so they actually removed my game a couple of days after
10:18.38Fisker-But they never withdrew any money, and i still got the cd-key >:3
10:18.56g0urraFisker-
10:19.06g0urraare you getting $308 within 10 minutes
10:19.15Fisker-why?
10:19.22g0urrajust wondering
10:19.24g0urra'cause I am >:3
10:20.08Fisker->:3
10:25.13Fisker-I WANT TO PLAY SPORE G0URRA
10:25.20Fisker-why so $308 btw?
10:25.47g0urrabecause of taxes
10:25.48g0urra>:3
10:25.56Fisker->:3
10:26.04Fisker-that means you aren't getting $308 then
10:26.14g0urrayes
10:26.15g0urraI am
10:26.17Fisker-nah
10:26.20g0urrayes me
10:26.21g0urranot u
10:26.25Fisker-You lended your government $308 for free
10:26.26Fisker-good job
10:26.35*** kick/#wowwiki [Fisker-!n=g0urra@73-236.powerdsl.t3.se] by g0urra (no u)
10:26.37*** join/#wowwiki Fisker- (i=ballmer@62.61.142.209.generic-hostname.arrownet.dk)
10:26.39Fisker-O
10:26.39Fisker-W
10:26.39Fisker-N
10:26.40Fisker-E
10:26.40Fisker-D
10:26.53g0urraur mom is owned
10:28.22Fisker-if only i had spore :(
10:28.25Fisker-has cd-key
10:28.27Fisker-do not has game
10:28.28Fisker-:(
10:29.03g0urraO
10:29.03g0urraW
10:29.04g0urraN
10:29.05g0urraE
10:29.05g0urraD
10:29.17Fisker-not as much as you are though
10:29.25g0urra>:3?
10:29.48Fisker-you know what i mean
10:29.49Fisker->:3
10:31.02Fisker-there's probably a store that's selling spore
10:31.07Fisker-go find it g0urra
10:31.12g0urrano
10:31.13g0urrau
10:31.43mxsI have plenty of spores.
10:31.51mxsyou are all allergic, though.
10:31.51Fisker-pretty weird that the EU launch is actually prior to the US launch
10:31.56Fisker-EA owned themselves
10:32.02Fisker-We especially owned
10:32.18Fisker-Since EA scandinavia releases their games on a thursday instead of a friday
10:32.25Fisker-so we're a day ahead of the EU launch
10:32.26Fisker->:3
10:32.31mxsno, it's their subconscious mind. They really, really want Sporte to be pirated.
10:32.37Fisker-Sporte? :o
10:32.48Fisker-besides it's not going to be cracked anyways
10:32.48mxsit's like Spore, but French
10:32.53mxsof course it is
10:32.58Fisker-not before launch
10:33.03*** join/#wowwiki latti (n=d41ccfc2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/irc.wikia.com/x-c6e881bf5e93584f)
10:33.09mxsis that some kind of challenge to the crackers ?
10:33.15Fisker-sure
10:35.00mxsI'd be surprised if it took the top people more than a few hours to crack it
10:35.29mxsand there are some crazy people in Scandinavia :P
10:35.45g0urrawhat do you mean
10:35.45g0urra>:3
10:36.08Fisker-mxs well Mass Effect uses the same protection
10:36.16Fisker-That was 3 months ago
10:36.19Fisker-Still not cracked
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10:40.21Fisker->:3
10:40.51Fisker-i r invincible
10:41.57g0urraololol gg bibi
10:42.07g0urra"Quests were added on the developper's island..."
10:42.20Fisker->:3?
10:43.32g0urradeveloper's island
10:43.33g0urragg
10:43.50g0urraHAY BLIZZ IM ON UR ISLAND DATAMININ UR DATAZ
10:44.04Fisker->:3
10:44.34g0urraolol gg game
10:44.40g0urraI'm exalted with the oracles
10:44.41Fisker-good game game?
10:44.47Fisker-i'm exalted with your mom
10:45.02g0urrawat
10:45.30Fisker-i did the daily
10:45.40Fisker-and it only takes 2 minutes
10:45.45Kirochiwhy so swedish g0urra
10:46.02Fisker-why so trollish Kirochi?
10:46.13Kirochijag är man som älskar mus
10:46.13g0urrawhy so Kirochi troll
10:48.48Fisker-beep beep i'm an alarm clock
10:48.49Fisker-1-0 g0urra
10:51.40Adyshttp://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2008/august/wormhole.jpg
10:51.45AdysAny engineer can wormhole me plox
10:52.56g0urraI'll put a worm in your hole
10:53.29Adysstfu and go lvl noob
10:54.25g0urraHOW
10:54.29g0urraTHERE ARE NO QUESTS
10:54.35g0urraSTORM PEAKS IS CLOSED
10:54.39g0urra>:I
10:55.52Kalrothl2grind
10:57.11g0urrai grinded ur mom
10:57.25g0urrathe rewards weren't worth it
10:57.46KalrothI could have told you that
10:57.53g0urradude
10:57.54g0urraew
10:58.04Kalrothhey, you opened for it
10:58.16*** part/#wowwiki g0urra (n=g0urra@73-236.powerdsl.t3.se)
10:58.24Kalrothwoot
10:58.31winkiller1:0
10:58.57KalrothAdys: was that a legit victory?
11:03.56Adysnop.
11:15.17*** part/#wowwiki LucidFox (n=inetpers@jabber.hsdnetwork.net)
11:44.18mxsFisker-: uhm ... Check your sources.
11:44.32mxsFisker-: even a cursory search of usenet provides a crack for Mass effect.
11:47.51mxsrelease date was may 28, the entire thing hit usenet, cracked, on May 30 (by two separate groups), and by several other groups over the course of the next 1-2 weeks. So yeah, no, it is not "uncracked". :)
11:58.49Fisker-mxs check your sources
11:59.05Fisker-No scene released crack successfully removed the activation and had the game playable
11:59.27Fisker-The initial release and subsequent crackfixes all bugged the game
11:59.40Fisker-The initial release made you unable to progress after an hour or so of play
12:00.21Fisker-The crackfixes also had the same problem, but not as bad, however weapons would never lose overheating
12:12.04winkillermaybe it was so bad no one really bothered? :P
12:18.55Fisker-the game was pretty good
12:19.04Fisker-but games don't cracked because they are bad or good
12:19.10Fisker-they get cracked because it's a competition
12:20.22Fisker-oh and Alone in the Dark also have a similar protection
12:20.27Fisker-that has also not been cracked
12:20.56Fisker-not by any scene and the release is a homemade workaround not a crack
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12:24.23Fisker-is victorious etc.
12:24.30Kirkburnshow off
12:25.51Fisker-Well this new protection will only serve to ultimately prove that whether or not we can download the game, doesn't mean we'll buy it
12:26.04Fisker-though i guess they already know
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12:26.29Fisker-They're only using the protection on those titles they know will be popular and sell
12:30.34mxsFisker-: you are almost tempting me to download all those releases and try them out in a sandbox
12:30.50mxsand then buy the game and try to get it to do the same crap on a legitimate machine
12:30.52KirkburnBtw, yes, the Mass Effect crack is broken
12:31.06KirkburnNot that I was looking it up yesterday
12:31.19mxshehe :)
12:31.34Fisker-http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/08/29/michael-phelps-call-of-duty-early/ <-that's just low
12:31.38mxsso what you're saying is I need a modded xbox360 to play the cracked game ? :>
12:31.42KirkburnAt least, that's what I saw on the torrent threads ... I'm probably gonna buy it
12:32.07Kirkburn(I thought we were talking about the PC version)
12:32.12mxsI'm probably not gonna buy it. I don't believe in crap-DRM like that, and will be damned if I support it.
12:32.22Fisker-Well i didn't buy it either
12:32.25Fisker-i got it for free from EA
12:32.26Fisker-:D
12:32.32Fisker-"free"
12:32.45mxsFisker-: even for free they can kiss my (considerable) behind
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12:33.09Fisker-Not gonna pass up good games just because of the protection, well perhaps besides Starforce
12:33.33mxsCD-key check when playing online (same exact system in use by Q3A, say) is as far as I will go (that is, if the gameserver can reach the keyserver, so should the client have to)
12:33.50mxsFisker-: I have passed up plenty of games that are supposedly good for that very reason
12:34.04mxsI was about to plonk down the dough for HL2 on release day, for instance
12:34.42Fisker-I think Valve's DRM is pretty good
12:34.57mxsjust as well I read beforehand how their system works, and had opportunity to get fucked over by it first hand (at a lanparty for 2000 people, in charge of internet connectivity)
12:35.05mxsit's beyond bad, quite honestly
12:35.20mxsyou can't even put up a cache server for their content
12:35.36mxswell, correction, they DO have soemthing that works for one class C subnet and needs a real beefy machine for 20-30 clients
12:35.42mxsif you ask
12:35.45mxsand beg
12:35.48mxsmade for internet cafes
12:36.02winkillerDRM is shit, just make it a one-time cd key like wow or even starcraft
12:36.08winkillerproblem solved
12:36.17winkilleri.e. account versus media
12:36.17mxsentirely useless for a lanparty with a couple dozen or even hundred subnets which would like to use 50 servers for hosting games, not patches
12:36.22winkillermedia-based DRM is fail
12:36.32mxswinkiller: yes, it is.
12:36.45KirkburnMass Effect/Spore aren't media based
12:36.46winkillerwishes back the old times
12:36.50Fisker-Internet is a media
12:36.53mxsKirkburn: they are media based, as well
12:37.00mxsFisker-: no, not in that sense, and you know it
12:37.02KirkburnYou don't need the DVD in the drive
12:37.09KirkburnAnd I'm talking about the PC version
12:37.11Fisker-You need a connection though
12:37.15mxsas for Valve and Steam : There is absolutely no reason I should have to LOG IN to play a SINGLE PLAYER GAME.
12:37.22Fisker-You don't have to
12:37.25Fisker-You can play offline
12:37.26Kirkburn^
12:37.30mxsThere is no reason I should have to let steam know I want to play a game offline before I do
12:37.34mxsno, you can't
12:37.37Fisker-yes
12:37.38mxsyou have to properly log out first
12:37.42Fisker-of course
12:37.49KirkburnYou can start in offline mode
12:37.51mxswhat do you mean, of course ?
12:37.56Fisker-But it will still work offline even in online mode
12:37.58mxsKirkburn: oh, without an internet connection ?
12:38.02KirkburnYes
12:38.12mxsKirkburn: then either they changed that, or you are wrong :P
12:38.12KirkburnIt asks you if you want to play in offline mode if you are offline
12:38.23Fisker-If you lose your internet connection while in "online mode" your games will still work, but when you restart steam it will ask you to start in offline mode
12:38.23KirkburnThen they changed it?
12:38.35KirkburnI know it was different around the time of HL2, but it changed a long time ago
12:38.59mxsKirkburn: I never looked back, a company that intent on fucking me in the ass (pardon my French) does not deserve to get a second look.
12:39.01winkillerthat's what I call shit as well
12:39.17mxsthe other power they still wield is account bans
12:39.22winkillermxs: you're saying that as if anal sex was something bad
12:39.26Fisker-Offline mode still worked back in the HL2 times
12:39.28mxsi.e. your games will stop working if your account get banned, without any refunds
12:39.32winkillerI bet many people feel insulted now
12:39.34Fisker-But there were some time limits i believe
12:39.42KirkburnYeah, it was a little weird
12:39.42mxswinkiller: it ain't, if it's between consenting adults.
12:39.43winkiller"HL2 times" lol
12:39.53winkillerDiablo, quake2
12:39.57winkillerDRM my ass
12:40.07winkillerHoMM3
12:40.10Fisker-You never buy a game, you buy a license to use it
12:40.13winkillerthat were brilliant games
12:40.25mxsFisker-: and it is unreasonable beyond belief. As said, I would have bought the game and further games beyond that, but they can kiss my ass. I'd sooner pirate their games than buy them.
12:40.29Fisker-If you get banned in any other game it doesn't entitle you to a refund either
12:40.35mxsFisker-: bullshit.
12:40.45winkiller"Do you want to start Notepad.exe in offline mode? Y/N/Cancel"
12:40.48mxsFisker-: maybe the US has weak customer protection laws
12:40.59mxsin any case, if you buy 50 games on Steam and they ban your account
12:41.04mxsyou lose access to all those 50 games
12:41.09Fisker-They don't just ban your account
12:41.10mxswithout refund, and without accountability
12:41.12winkillerFisker-: nono, banned =~ terms of use that you accepted
12:41.15mxsyou signed away and and all rights
12:41.22Fisker-They only ban your account if you comitted fraud or otherwise broke the terms
12:41.26mxsthey reserve the right to disable your account for any reason at all, stated or unstated
12:41.30winkillerFisker-: by "buying" a box of offline game you sign no thing at all
12:41.30Fisker-And i don't live in the US
12:41.38Fisker-you do winkiller
12:41.40mxsFisker-: look, I don't care what they say as to WHEN they will ban the account
12:41.46mxsmy point is that they should not have that power, at all
12:41.47Fisker-read all the steps when installing the game
12:41.51mxsthey can ban in their online system, sure
12:42.02mxsbut they should not be able to restrict access to the games I bought.
12:42.03Fisker-those pretty words you sometime have to scroll to the bottom of, they're called an "EULA"
12:42.18mxsEULA are unenforcable in most parts of Europe
12:42.21Fisker-VAC bans do not remove your access to the account
12:42.26KirkburnHrm, if you performed credit card fraud, why do they not have the right to revoke your access to the games?
12:42.28mxsbut that's beside the point, gamers would believe anything.
12:42.39mxsFisker-: no, it does not. That is fine. Account bans, however, do.
12:42.46Fisker-If you get banned for cheating all that happens is that VAC enabled titles remove your online capabilities
12:42.56Fisker-account bans are only used when you cheat them of their money
12:43.08Fisker-"Oh noes i didn't pay for my games, and they have the nerve to remove them"
12:43.10Fisker-those bastards
12:43.15Fisker-Or if you hack the account of course
12:43.21mxsKirkburn: my point is that they should not have the power to revoke access to my games that I legally bought and paid for, unaccountably, without any stated reason at all
12:43.26Fisker-But then it rather gets restored to the original owner
12:43.34mxsNO MATTER whether they only claim to do it in case X or Y
12:43.49mxsyou are not understanding the premise here
12:43.53Fisker-Which is no different than what is being done in WoW
12:43.55Kirkburnmxs, fair enough - it's more about the theoretical limits of their power
12:43.59mxsI am not assuming that fraud has taken place
12:44.06mxsI am taking issue with the fact that they can disable it at all.
12:44.22mxsFisker-: WoW is quite a bit different than a single-player game
12:44.23Fisker-Well in that case good luck playing no games
12:44.29Fisker-Because those terms apply everywhere
12:44.33mxsFisker-: no, they do not.
12:44.34Fisker-pretty much
12:44.36Fisker-yes they do
12:44.38mxsI can install Diablo 2, right now.
12:44.39winkillerGames are coming to THAT extent that commercial software had 10 years ago
12:44.43mxsI don't even need a valid CD key.
12:44.47winkillerI bet 2009 will have hardware dongles...
12:44.50mxsNo matter whether Blizzard likes it, or not.
12:44.50Fisker-you do
12:44.57mxsno, I can just use a keygen.
12:45.03Fisker-Then you have a "valid" cd-key
12:45.19mxs(and before you say anything, I have the retail box right here -- my point is that I can install and play the game, right now, even if Blizzard decided it did not like me.
12:46.03mxsit's a subtle difference, but it is there, and I have no desire to give that power to Valve
12:46.08mxsfor no reason whatsoever, mind you
12:46.10Fisker-That may be
12:46.14mxspirates are not affected by it, at all
12:46.20Fisker-But in both cases you are accepting similar terms
12:46.28Fisker-You are in breach of your terms by using an invalid key
12:46.29mxsor do you know ANY Steam-game that you cannot get a pirated version of ?
12:46.34Fisker-You are not allowed to play the game
12:46.40winkillerlast game I bought was wow-TBC, take that DRM-infested game industry
12:46.43mxsFisker-: as I ALREADY said, EULAs are unenforcable.
12:46.47winkillerand before that wow classic
12:47.02*** join/#wowwiki Schnoobby (n=MirandaM@wrzb-590de152.pool.einsundeins.de)
12:47.12Fisker-mxs they are not uninforcable per definition
12:47.13Fisker-so no
12:47.15winkiller(apart from Grandia2 and HoMM as 3EUR-versions)
12:47.18mxsFisker-: many rights you cannot sign away. Hell, most EULAs will prohibit reselling your game.
12:47.29mxsFisker-: sorry, but if you believe that, you are sorely mistaken.
12:47.33Fisker-I am not
12:47.51mxsFisker-: if I go to the store, buy Mass Effect right now, shrinkwrapped, and get the EULA on my screen after I bought it, it is unenforcable.
12:47.57mxsin my jurisdiction, anyway
12:48.05Fisker-perhaps
12:48.07mxsmost gamers will believe it is enforcable, but it is not.
12:48.16Fisker-EULA's are not unenforcable per definition though
12:48.23mxsit's beside the point, since few people will sue over a $50 game.
12:48.36Fisker-Yes so infact you do not know
12:48.42Fisker-because no legal precendent has EVER been set
12:48.43mxsFisker-: in the US they may not be.
12:48.52mxsactually, legal precedent has been set
12:49.02mxsthe problem with, say, German law is, is that there is no precedent case law.
12:49.12Fisker-Again that is totally dependant on the EULA in question
12:49.18mxsso "precedent" is meaningless.
12:49.39Fisker-For example you believe you can return the game after having installed it, but already most countries prohibit this, IN LINE with the EULA's
12:50.06Fisker-in the UK you are not allowed to return a game after the sealing has been broken for example
12:50.08winkillerlast I checked the shops don't allow it
12:50.10mxsFisker-: not really. I stated my case (shrinkwrap-license). A skilled lawyer can state many other cases that will erode any and all of what an EULA will say (up to and including the fact that a "click" does not necessarily signify consent or a signature)
12:50.17winkillernothing to do with EULA
12:50.51mxsFisker-: sorry Fisker-, but you are also wrong in that case. Well, I have no idea what UK law says on the matter, I do know what German law will say on the matter
12:51.10Fisker-I don't know what the german law states, but i know what the UK law states
12:51.10mxsmany shops will claim it is not allowed
12:51.25Fisker-I know
12:51.46winkillercalls out anarchy
12:51.50mxsin any case, any DECENT shop will honor returns with decent reasons (for fear of losing a long-term customer)
12:52.14mxsand any mail-order shop BETTER take back the game, or they will actually be hurting in court.
12:52.35winkilleroh wow, never had the idea witrh mailorder shops :P
12:52.51winkillerthink I never ever had something taken back except cloths
12:52.54winkiller*clothes
12:53.03winkillerbecause.. I only buy stuff I want
12:53.12mxsBut it is beside the point, anyway. If a company wants to anally rape me for buying their game, they can go fuck themselves.
12:53.19mxsI have other things to spend my money on.
12:54.14Fisker-Companies don't want to anally rape you for buying their game
12:54.41mxsThus steam will never be installed on this computer, and I will never pay money for an iTunes song. If the draconian (and unnecessary) DRM is removed from Steam and they actually focus on making me, as a customer, happy, that may change. Once iTunes gives me lossless DRM-less tracks, that may change.
12:54.43KirochiWorld of Theorycraft's new expansion :
12:54.53mxsUntil then, Magnatune.com gets my money for music, and any artist I see in concert.
12:54.55KirochiThe WoWwiki crusade for walls of tect
12:54.55Fisker-Steam isn't Draconian
12:54.57Kirochitext
12:55.07Fisker-It is actually one of the least draconian DRM systems on the market now
12:55.34Fisker-Impulse might be slightly better though i don't know personally, only given by their own statements
12:56.06mxsFisker-: sorry, but yes, they do want to perform that act on my anus. If I'm generally treated as a criminal after buying their game, having to prove I am not, having to constantly keep proving I am not, then that is the impression I am left with. By all means, crack down on the people that actually infringe on your copyright, but I am not one of them in that case.
12:56.29mxsas for draconicity of DRM : Sorry, I disagree.
12:56.34Fisker-I don't see how you are treated as a criminal
12:56.37mxsbut that's just my opinion:)
12:56.46mxsoh, what is DRM then ?
12:56.57mxsIt IS assuming I am a criminal, that is why it is there.
12:57.20mxsIf you were to treat me as a valued customer, I would not have to deal with the utter piece of shit that is DRM, and the many restrictions it brings.
12:57.35*** join/#wowwiki Sky2042 (n=Sky2042@host-VLCH2x-89.dhcp.stevens-tech.edu)
12:57.41mxs(and, by the way, pirates don't have to deal with it, either=
12:57.41Fisker-I still don't see how it treats you as a criminal
12:57.50mxsFisker-: then you don't understand my mindset.
12:57.56Fisker-No i don't
12:58.08Fisker-Because DRM or not, it would not change Steam THE SLIGHTEST
12:58.17Fisker-the only thing that would change is stuff you cannot see or observe anyways
12:58.28mxsoh, like the offline mode.
12:58.36mxsor the automatic preloads they had around HL2-time.
12:59.11mxsOr the mandatory login for counterstrike if you want to play on lanparties, in RFC1918-space (don't say it doesn't happen, it did, maybe they fixed those bugs now -- but they should not have been there in the first place)
12:59.17Fisker-I do not see how giving you a service is called "treating you as a criminal"
12:59.22mxsOr the reauthorization of my new PC because my old one blew up
12:59.39Fisker-You won't even have the game if your old pc blew up
12:59.42mxsFisker-: we are talking about the DRM, not Steam as a service
12:59.52mxsoh, so I could have backed it up on CD ?
12:59.56mxsand it will install from that CD ?
13:00.02mxserr wait, no, it won't.
13:00.14mxshell, you can't even install HL2 without an internet connection.
13:00.19mxsA single-player game, mind you.
13:00.23Fisker-Which is stated when you buy it
13:00.24mxsfrom a box.
13:00.33Fisker-You need a single internet connection, and you can backup your games
13:00.42mxsyes, and it is a rather sizable, counter-intuitive restriction when you go to the store an buy a fucking box.
13:01.26mxsyou also need to re-authorize your account. But all this discussion is beside the point. It is DRM, it restricts what I can do. The reason it does that is that it assumes I will do criminal stuff if it was not there.
13:01.36Fisker-Perhaps
13:01.36mxs(or not criminal, but just stuff the company does not like)
13:01.44mxsthere is no other reason for it being there
13:01.44Fisker-but it restricts you less than any other DRM used today
13:01.52mxstherefore, I am being treated as a criminal until proven otherwise
13:01.56mxsthat is not an argument
13:01.57Fisker-No you're not
13:02.29mxsof course I am. If the company in question were to not treat me as a criminal until proven otherwise, I would not have to jump through DRM hoops.
13:02.42mxsAnd, by the way, the actual infringers do not have to jump through those hoops.
13:02.54Fisker-Actually they do
13:02.55mxsYou can install the pirated copy of HL2 without those hoops.
13:02.58mxsno, they don't.
13:03.06mxsI don't need an internet connection to install HL2, pirated.
13:03.24Fisker-Just like Mass Effect, HL2 was severely bugged when cracked
13:03.37Fisker-So what they do now is actually some kind of emulation of the DRM rather than bypassing it
13:03.45mxswhich has since been fixed. Oh, and HL2 was also severely when it thought it was cracked, but wasn't.
13:04.05Fisker-HL2 didn't think it was cracked when it wasn't
13:04.14mxsyeah, they try to virtualize the responses a real drive would give within an image, I know the process.
13:04.35Fisker-That is a cloned cd
13:04.48Fisker-or wait you mean a VM
13:04.51mxsFisker-: ah, so it allowed itself to be run while BlackIce was running, and worked the same way it would have otherwise ?
13:04.51Fisker-that isn't a crack either
13:05.30mxswell, it' what daemontools does. And as for what constitutes a crack, don't be narrowminded. I would define it as anything that bypasses the need for original media, successfully.
13:06.00Fisker-What is a crack wasn't the discussion anyways
13:06.14mxsin Lemmings that would mean to create file with some interesting attributes on the floppy disk in question, in Diablo 2 it would mean a crack in a dll, and in many Securom-games it means using DaemonTools or the like :)
13:06.18mxstrue
13:06.56Fisker-But again Steam isn't apparently treating you like a criminal
13:07.13Fisker-If you did not know there was DRM you would not know it was there at all
13:07.27mxsI regard any form of DRM imposed on me as the implicit accusation that I would do unlawful things (or things the provider did not like, however lawful they may be). I don't deal with companies that, off the bat, call me a criminal liar.
13:07.30KirochiFisker- sucks bad
13:07.31Fisker-You are accessing an online service, and the same part that accesses that service also acts like DRM
13:07.48mxsFisker-: that is only part of the story, and you KNOW it.
13:07.52Fisker-No it's not
13:08.12Fisker-You are allowed more freedom with your games than any other copy protection has for years
13:09.13mxsuhm ... Fisker- ... That is the entire problem. You are "allowed" freedom. You are "given" freedom. It is not something that should be "allowable" or "given" (and in turn, "revocable" and "taken away").
13:09.47Fisker-You are still just paying a license to use the software
13:09.51Fisker-you are not paying for the software
13:09.53Fisker-EULA or not
13:10.22mxsand your statement is patently false. First of all, copy protection == DRM. Some forms of DRM are more pronounced than others. That does not mean Starforce legitimizes Securom as "good"
13:10.37Fisker-No
13:10.50mxsFisker-: oh, and naturally, if that license is revoked from one side, you get a refund, RIGHT ?
13:11.07mxsAre you gonna tell me that they own the media next, and it is just a loan ?
13:11.10winkillerWTT my freedom for your gamez PST
13:11.17Fisker-You own the media
13:11.21mxswinkiller: or music :P
13:11.30mxs<-- loves Sony Rootkits
13:11.32Fisker-But not much to do it without a license to use it
13:11.55mxsFisker-: so I own the media, but am not free to use it ?
13:12.03Fisker-You are free to use it
13:12.08Fisker-But media != game
13:12.12mxs(mind you, we are not talking about redistribution here, but using it in my home)=
13:12.16winkillerfree to put your coffee cup on it
13:12.36Kirkburn(wow, I thought you would have finished by now)
13:12.38Fisker-As by UK law, a refund is only possible if both parts agree to it
13:13.01winkillersues Kirkburn
13:13.01mxsFisker-: sorry, but taht breaks down, real fast, especially when stuff like Consumer rights enter the room (and their clashing with Intellectual Property rights. The latter does not eradicate the former, though they do overlap in some cases).
13:13.31Fisker-If you broke your part of the contract there is no reason why you should be refunded
13:13.42mxsFisker-: that is the problem, it is NOT A FUCKING CONTRACT.
13:14.15Fisker-You can call it what you want
13:14.19Fisker-license, contract, etc.
13:14.30mxsbut that's OK. We can stop now. I don't think I'll get through to you without you having attended a couple of university courses on IP.
13:14.53mxsor UK law is so SUBSTANTIALLY different from German law that it does not make any sense to discuss, anyway
13:15.01sancusmeh, Steam's DRM has been outed as highly questionable by a lot of people
13:15.10mxs(and yes, I have had this discussion, in detail, in class, with professors who work in that field :)
13:15.20mxssancus: not according to Fisker-  .P
13:15.23winkillerSteam itself has been questioned by people, including me
13:15.27sancusnot really sure how you can argue that
13:15.52sancusThat said, they're going to continue to get away with it as long as they produce quality products, as most people don't care about DRM as long it doesn't apparently interfere with their use
13:16.03Fisker-exactly
13:16.07Fisker-because their DRM ISNT BAD
13:16.09sancusIt doesn't make it right
13:16.15Fisker-i didn't say it did
13:16.22mxssancus: the problem, usually, revolves around implicit trust for Valve to do the right thing. In contrast (and tainted by working in security for too long), I have to ask what the worst possible thing they could do is, and limit that :)
13:16.31sancusOf course
13:16.43sancusChances are they will abuse their power in the future, eventually
13:16.48sancuswho knows how long that will take though
13:16.52Fisker-mxs if you study so much law, surely you must know about class action suits
13:16.55mxsthey don't even need to do that maliciously
13:16.57Fisker-They don't ban people because they want to
13:17.06Fisker-and if they did, it's not "$50" we're talking about
13:17.13mxsFisker-: uhm. Yeah. I do. German law has no class action suits. Next.
13:17.21Fisker-pro-tip: THIS IS SPARTA
13:17.55mxsof course they don't. Or say they don't. I still think that you do not get that it is a very bad thing for them to be ABLE to do that, though.
13:18.32Fisker-It is in no way different from what Blizzard does with for example World of Warcraft
13:18.39Fisker-they can terminate your account without any reason at all
13:19.06Fisker-But i still don't see how Steam is the "bad guy" here
13:19.12Fisker-We can all agree that DRM sucks
13:19.17mxsalso a policy I do disagree with (especially the non-accountability) for very obvious reasons, but it is a problem in a different area.
13:19.21sancusThere will certainly be a lot of interesting legal ground tread in the next decade or two
13:19.30Fisker-but within DRM, Valve's DRM is not intrusive to the user
13:19.36Fisker-That is good
13:19.36sancusI just hope that courts aren't retarded and don't just haphazardly rule in favor of the party with the most money, the way they did in the glider lawsuit
13:19.51mxssancus: my fear is that there won't. It'll proliferate through gaming (as it has now), and, once tested properly, be extended to other areas.
13:19.57mxsWell, not just gaming. Just look at HDCP.
13:20.08winkillerHDwhat?
13:20.11winkillernow you lost me
13:20.13mxsFisker-: you meant to say "not as intrusive", surely.
13:20.13winkillerfinally
13:21.00mxswinkiller: the excellent standard the MPAA pushed through. The one that will make it impossible to use your perfectly fine current LCD display to display BluRay content with the PS3 (or on any compliant computer)
13:21.12winkillerah
13:21.15winkillerk thanks
13:21.16mxsnot because of technical reasons but, you see, somebody could be real evil and CAPTURE the DVI signal
13:21.19Fisker-No mxs i didn't, and it would be wonderful if you could show me any example where Steam would work fundementally different than it does now if it had no DRM
13:21.21winkillerhas faint memories
13:21.41sancuswell for one thing
13:21.44mxsFisker-: So what you are claiming is that steam has no DRM ?
13:21.47sancusyou could play your fucking games all you wanted if the Steam server died.
13:21.56mxsFisker-: for if it did not work differently, it would have no DRM.
13:22.16mxsyou could copy your steamfolder from computer A to computer B and use it as before.
13:22.33Fisker-you can
13:22.52mxsah, so I can install HL2 on one machine, copy the folder, start HL2 and be happy ?
13:23.01Fisker-no
13:23.04winkillerso it worked last time iirc
13:23.13winkillermaybe that source folder was cracked already, though :P
13:23.17Fisker-You can copy your steamfolder from computer A to computer B and use it as before.
13:23.20winkillerbeen a couple of years
13:23.22mxslet's not give the second machine internet access. Let's say it's my laptop and I just copy the folder before I head off to board a plane. Then I want to play the game.
13:24.03mxsit would very much surprise me if Steam was computer-agnostic
13:24.54sancusit isn't
13:24.55mxsI can also backup the whole installation, right now, on a DVD, dust it off in 20 years' time and start playing ?
13:25.03sancusyou can't play offline without authing with the server first once either
13:25.16sancusSo like I said, if Steam dies, that's GG to you except for pre-authed computers
13:25.22mxs(and before you say that that is an outlandish thing to want to be able to do, I am still playing games 22 years old. Right now.)
13:25.36winkillerwhat?
13:25.42Fisker-What you are writing is actually irrelevant
13:25.46mxswinkiller: Metroid is the best game of all time.
13:25.52Fisker-You can copy Steam from Computer A to B and use it like you did before
13:25.52mxsFisker-: it is ?
13:25.54winkillermhm, I didn't really like it
13:25.57Fisker-That was your claim it couldn't
13:26.02Fisker-Steam is an online service
13:26.06Fisker-NOT a game
13:26.06winkillerbut original Sim City is close. also 16 years
13:26.10sancusuh yes
13:26.17sancusthe point is that it makes the online service a requirement to play your games
13:26.26mxsFisker-: oh come on, you know exactly that I meant "copy the games I installed with it, including steam"
13:26.29sancuswhich is an inconvenient effect that only exists for the benefit of the DRM...
13:26.37sancusIf the DRM didn't exist, it wouldn't work that way
13:26.53Fisker-If DRM didn't exist you wouldn't have the game
13:27.02sancusThat's totally untrue
13:27.05Fisker-No
13:27.10sancusIf DRM didn't exist Valve wouldn't make games? Give me a break.
13:27.14Fisker-no
13:27.16mxssancus: and as I had already said, Q3A got it right. They use a CDkey. When their keyservers die, the game will play just fine.
13:27.23Fisker-because the act of having an account which lists which games you have itself is a form of DRM
13:27.50sancusyou're not making sense
13:27.54Fisker-I am
13:27.56mxsFisker-: now you are just grasping for straws.
13:28.02Fisker-You are accessing an online service
13:28.07Fisker-associated with that is a user/password
13:28.11mxsoh, so the HL2 box I bought at a store does not need Steam ?
13:28.14Fisker-Without DRM you are not associated with anything
13:28.14sancusbut that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GAMES
13:28.15mxsGive me a fucking Break.
13:28.16sancusat all
13:28.18Fisker-it does
13:28.22sancusno it doesn't, sorry
13:28.23sancusyou're wrong
13:28.24Fisker-no
13:28.33sancusThe online service is a requirement to play the games, put their specifically for DRM.
13:28.36sancusIt has nothing to do with the games.
13:28.41sancusThe games could work fine without it entirely.
13:28.47sancus*there
13:28.50mxssancus: I think he means that you get something extra with steam, the ability to download games.
13:29.12Fisker-No i mean that if DRM didn't exist, then you wouldn't have Steam
13:29.15mxswhich is orthogonal to the DRM employed (I can download games off of Usenet or RapidShare or BitTorrent as well, that does not make those things DRM)
13:29.29mxsFisker-: that is a bullshit argument. Why would Steam not exist ?
13:29.41sancusAnd wait, who said I want Steam anyway?
13:29.44mxsWhy could I not offer games for download after paying for them, without DRM ?
13:29.44Fisker-Because it would not know which game you did or did not own
13:29.51sancusYour argument would make sense if I could go buy a steam-free copy of the game at the store
13:29.52sancusI can't do that
13:29.59Fisker-you can
13:30.00mxsoh, so Amazon.com is unable to send me a package, too ?
13:30.02Fisker-Just not Valve games
13:30.11Fisker-If postal services didn't exist, yes.
13:30.13sancusUh yeah, we're talking about valve games
13:30.21mxsyeah, make your facts fit your aguments.
13:30.56mxsSo, DRM-wise, are you saying that if I take my HL2 install or HL2 discs, right now, put them away for 20 years and then attempt to install them or play the game, I will be met with no problems ?
13:31.05mxsWhat about 30 years ? 50 ? What if Valve goes under in 10 ?
13:31.34Fisker-nope
13:31.43mxs(they SAY they will release the data required to unlock their games in that case, but who guarantees that ? The people who guarantee it right now might not be working there then, anymore)
13:32.09mxsok, Fisker-, you officially just entered the crackpot-territory. Without Steam servers up, I will not be install the game in 20-50 years.
13:32.15Fisker-I'm saying that the part that verifies whether or not you are the owner of the games you say would have steam work no different than if you didn't have it
13:32.41mxsno, you said that Steam would be the same with or without DRM.
13:32.57mxsWithout the crappy DRM they have, I would be able to play the game I downloaded and installed today even in 100 years
13:33.02mxsor 50 or 20.
13:33.08mxsRegardless of whether Valve went under.
13:33.19Fisker-nope
13:33.20mxsWith the DRM they have, that is far from a guarantee (and will be a hassle).
13:35.43mxsto draw a comparison : I know my magnatune.com music will play fine in 20 years. I do not know that about iTunes. Oh, and magnatune is similar to Steam in that you can redownload the music you bought whenever you want.
13:36.27Fisker-If you did not have DRM you would not be able to even download the music in the first place
13:36.54mxsuhm.
13:36.58mxsmagnatune has no DRM.
13:36.59mxsNext.
13:37.43Fisker-So you have no kind of user association with magnatune?
13:37.45Fisker-next.
13:38.10mxssorry fisker, but an account at a store is not the same as DRM.
13:38.21Fisker-It is
13:38.35mxsyeah, go take a hike. You do not understand what you are talking about.
13:38.37Fisker-(btw i'm obvious trolling you)
13:38.45KirkburnI really hope you weren't supposed to be doing anything else for the last 90 minutes :)
13:38.53Fisker-Just because there is put no restrictions on your media doesn't mean that it's not DRM
13:39.04*** mode/#wowwiki [+o Sky2042] by ChanServ
13:39.07Fisker-Digital Rights Management
13:39.08*** kick/#wowwiki [Fisker-!n=Sky2042@wikimedia/Izno] by Sky2042 (just for trolling.)
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13:39.14Fisker-It's digital (check)
13:39.14*** mode/#wowwiki [-o Sky2042] by ChanServ
13:39.23Fisker-Do you have the right to download it(check)
13:39.29Fisker-that also checks management
13:39.34mxsFisker-, fuck you. If you don't want to discuss something, don't. If you want to troll, go to 2chan. They like you there.
13:39.54mxshe's now on ignore, maybe I'll take it off tomorrow.
13:39.58Fisker->:3
13:40.01Kirochistop talking about trolls you douchebags
13:40.31Fisker-That's how it is when you fail to come up with a comprehensible argument of how removing the DRM on steam would change anything
13:42.54*** kick/#wowwiki [Fisker-!n=nnnnnnon@67.196.136.190] by sancus (kicking Fisker is almost as fun as playing DRM-free games)
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13:43.31Fisker-Must be very boring games that are DRM-free then
13:43.48Fisker-If such even exist in this age
13:44.39Fisker-I wonder what your definition on DRM is btw
13:45.05Sky2042Oh jesus, don't get started again.
13:45.32sancusyeah they are boring, thats why you get kicked so much
13:45.32Fisker-Hey mxs already ignored me from losing the game, so not much to start here :P
13:45.33mxsno worries, I can't. /ignore is exhaustive :P
13:45.38sancuswe need to entertain ourselves somehow
13:46.02winkillerbored Fisker- seems booored
13:46.04sancusmaybe if you could attach DRM to yourself somehow, you could sell your services
13:46.26Fisker-yeah winkiller giev spore
13:48.59Fisker-http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/08/29/michael-phelps-call-of-duty-early/ <-still lame btw
13:50.41Fisker-seems to be a lot of gameplay in spore >:3
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14:07.31Fisker-btw Kirkburn you getting spore?
14:07.43Kirkburnyes
14:08.00KirkburnMy library of Maxis games is large
14:08.51Fisker-atleast we only have to wait until the 4th :P
14:08.57Kirkburn:O
14:09.03Fisker-weird that it's released earlier in EU than US
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14:26.45OseUbiquity seems kinda nice
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15:22.19Osewhich of http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/archive/7/70/20080831062743!WorldMap-GrizzlyHills.jpg and http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/archive/7/70/20080901151929!WorldMap-GrizzlyHills.jpg represents the map as it currently is in-game?
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15:51.55KirkburnOse, the second
15:52.04KirkburnThey redid the maps in the last build
15:52.42g0urraYeah new corners
15:53.17KirkburnHave all of the on-wiki maps been updated?
15:53.40g0urraMost of the ones
15:54.09g0urraNot Zul'Drak
15:54.12g0urraI'll work on that
15:54.43KirkburnThanks :)
15:55.28KirkburnHowling Fjord?
15:57.28g0urramkay that too
15:58.41winkillerkind of pointless to update all that stuff as the beta continues to spit out semiweekly builds :P
15:58.56winkillerI mean.. ok, some new maps. but no details
15:58.57KirkburnPeople enjoy seeing the changes
15:59.02g0urra^
15:59.06Kirkburn(I know I do)
15:59.07winkillerpeople have too much time then
15:59.21g0urrayou're just jealous you're not in the beta
15:59.26winkillerI hardly come to glance over bibi's posts every 2 days
15:59.27KirkburnYes. We play WoW in it. :P
15:59.45winkillerg0urra: actually.. no, not a single hour
15:59.48Kirkburng0urra, also Storm Peaks and Icecrown? :P
15:59.56winkillerI just hate it that people already spoil the goodies
16:00.08winkillerbut not hate as in OHNOES PUT IT AWAY
16:00.17winkillerit kills maybe 10% of my wotlk fun :P
16:00.34KirkburnThat's why I dislike spoilers on here, but on WoWWiki you can avoid it
16:00.58winkillernah, I meant.. I'm 80% looking forward to it despite
16:01.09winkillerlike.. "there are DK and inscription" are already spoilers
16:01.29winkillerI'm not talking about quests.. I'll look them up on wowhead while doing em anyway
16:02.00winkillerit's just annoying to have BETABETABETA zomg one hunter skill got changed for 10% damage
16:02.13winkillerthat will TOTALLY be final and worth crying
16:02.24g0urraBEAR TRAP
16:02.25g0urra;_;
16:02.27g0urraKirkburn
16:02.28g0urrait's gone
16:02.35g0urraI WANT BEAR TRAPZ
16:02.54winkillerthat map is not logical
16:02.57KirkburnIt's been gone for ages o_O
16:03.12winkiller"grizzly hills" sounds wild and fierce, yet there are more roads than in elwynn
16:03.26KirkburnThe zone is way way larger than Elwynn though
16:03.30winkillerseems they're doing more details now than at launch
16:03.37KirkburnMap details?
16:03.42winkillerBE/squid starting places also were like this
16:03.48winkillermore stuff
16:03.52KirkburnYes indeed
16:03.58winkilleron the maps ingame and on the wow-maps
16:03.59KirkburnLike proper maps :P
16:04.11winkillerelwynn is quite dull in fact
16:04.14winkillerlike 10 POI
16:04.20winkillerTranquillien has like 20
16:04.26winkiller*ghostlands
16:05.17winkillerand one logical flaw totally annoys me, actually
16:05.29winkillera level 1 can go to Winterspring. 55 levels difference
16:05.36winkillerbut a level 70 can't reach Northrend
16:05.46winkillerfrom an ingame perspective
16:06.21winkilleris glad he's no RPer and only IC 1% of the time while doing /insult and /rude
16:09.53Kirkburnhttp://www.wowwiki.com/Image:WorldMap-Elwynn.jpg ... it's so ugly
16:10.05Bibiyou're ugly.
16:10.22Kirkburntouche
16:10.38Fisker-g0urra
16:10.39Fisker-http://blog.makezine.com/basicelectronics.gif
16:10.45KirkburnIt'd be nice to have the old maps redone, especially with the Grizzly Hills colour set
16:16.04mxsKirkburn: maybe when they add flying to old Azeroth
16:16.06mxs*hides*
16:16.11Kirkburnheh
16:19.32winkillerlol Fisker-
16:20.28winkillerI've flewn over the Shatterspear village for the first time yesterday
16:20.49winkillerI think I've been playing wow for over 3 years now
16:22.04g0urraKirkburn
16:22.17Kirkburnmmm?
16:22.25g0urrafor some reason the part of the map where The Ancient Lift is is missing
16:22.46Fisker-do it g0urra
16:24.21Kirkburng0urra, o_O
16:24.42g0urraKirkburn: can you check if it's on yours?
16:25.01KirkburnNot quickly, sorry - working atm
16:25.17KirkburnAre you talking in-game or in the files?
16:25.23g0urrado if Fisker-
16:25.25g0urrain-game
16:25.36KirkburnThen yeah, can't get atm
16:27.02winkillerwait? Kirkburn's job doesn't involve playing wow? how lame
16:27.06winkiller*strikes from list*
16:27.11KirkburnTerrible, innnit
16:27.25winkillerat least it involves irc
16:27.31winkiller*moves up on list*
16:27.38Kirkburnheh
16:33.08Fisker-slaps g0urra around a bit with a large trout
16:33.18Fisker-watch my AWESOME pictar
16:33.23g0urrano
16:33.31Fisker-do it
16:33.33Fisker-i hate you
16:37.50KirkburnWhy the heck do we have a Ragnaros quote in the topic?
16:38.23KirkburnNorwegian WoWWiki is running a contest for beta keys btw - http://no.wowwiki.com/wiki/Lichkongens_konkuranse
16:40.43Fisker-TOO LATE KIRKBURN YOU DISCOVERED THE RAGNAROS QUOTE TOO LATE
16:40.55Fisker-*fireballs Kirkburn*
16:41.31Kirkburn*enrages*
16:41.39Kirkburnpatches to 3.0.2
16:41.44Kirkburn*frenzies*
16:42.56Fisker-regardless of the patch you *dies*
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17:00.22g0urraKirkburn, zul'drak map coming up
17:00.54g0urrayay my fx died again
17:01.15Kirkburn:(
17:02.04Fisker-g0urra
17:02.10Fisker-http://blog.makezine.com/basicelectronics.gif
17:02.10Fisker-DO IT
17:03.08g0urraKirkburn: http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:WorldMap-ZulDrak.jpg
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17:46.06mxsKirkburn: does Wikia actually employ any engineers or people who can track down and fix the Opera problem ? :)
17:47.15KirkburnAfaik it's still being looked at
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17:47.39Fisker-Kirkburn
17:47.52mxsKirkburn: my question being whether there even is somebody to look at it :P
17:47.57Fisker-isn't posting various exploits in boss encounters to trivialize them considered DNP?
17:48.51KirkburnYes, http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Wikia_Staff
17:48.59KirkburnFisker-, yes
17:50.52Fisker-http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Akil%27zon_gauntlet&diff=1591254&oldid=1397912 was what i was talking about
17:50.54Fisker-btw
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17:52.24KirkburnFisker-, good stuff, thanks
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18:25.23Given_to_FlyHi all
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19:09.17KirkburnFree download of Red Alert 1! http://www.ea.com/redalert/news-detail.jsp?id=62 :D
19:09.51Fisker-old!§
19:09.53Fisker-!321
19:09.54Fisker->;Z(
19:10.18g0urraoh the noes
19:10.28Fisker-g0urra !
19:10.35Fisker-http://blog.makezine.com/basicelectronics.gif
19:12.11Kirkburnoold!
19:12.35Fisker-;(
19:12.39mxsKirkburn: I feel cheated ! I have the retail box of that game ! :P
19:12.41Kirkburnhoisted by one's own petard
19:13.08Kirkburnmxs, noes!
19:13.18KirkburnI do too, but it's on the other side of the country >_<
19:13.31mxsKirkburn: it was so much fun !
19:13.37mxsespecially the German version
19:13.39Fisker-i had 3 retail boxes of that game
19:13.40Fisker->:3
19:13.51mxswhere they replaced red blood with green and death-screams with robotic death screams
19:14.02Kirkburnheh, I was going to say :P
19:14.17mxsit was easily resettable :>
19:14.34mxsTo this day I do not understand how Lemmings ever got sold unchanged
19:14.40mxsthey have suicide bombers, forchrissakes
19:14.42Kirkburn:O
19:14.54KirkburnIs there still the green blood rule?
19:15.02mxsthere never was a green blood rule
19:15.34mxsbut if you have copious violence and red blood, the "Jugendschutz" applies
19:15.42KirkburnIs this like a "you don't talk about Fight Club" thing?
19:15.49mxs(that is if it lands on the "index")
19:16.02mxswell, it's in an effort to protect the youth
19:16.06mxsadults can still buy it
19:16.11KirkburnI'm guessing the Hell March probably didn't help it pass unnoticed
19:16.12mxsbut you cannot advertize the game
19:16.37mxsand you can't openly display it in any store that lets minors in
19:16.47mxswhich is an effective death-sentence for any mass-marketed product
19:16.51KirkburnHey, we sampled Hitler for our main theme of the game. Germany will be fine with that, right? Right?
19:17.01mxsso they try stuff like green blood to avoid it. Which is patently ridiculous, but oh well.
19:17.15Fisker-Valve wins
19:17.20Fisker-rubber ducks as blood
19:17.22Fisker-wee
19:17.23mxsheh ... so long as you do not use any of the nazi symbols ... sure !
19:17.30KirkburnI recall a game where the devs had to put clothes on their nude alien in order to sell it
19:17.43mxsnudity ?
19:17.45mxsnot in Germany
19:17.51mxswe don't care about nudity
19:17.53KirkburnOh, sorry, I meant in the US
19:17.54mxswe only care about violence
19:18.00mxsyeah, US is the other way around
19:18.03KirkburnIndeed
19:18.35mxsJugendschutz is bullshit, anyway. It's just another word for censorship, and it does not just apply to the youth.
19:18.36KirkburnI think in the UK they put on bottoms, and most other places had ...zomg ... a naked blue alien.
19:19.37mxsbut yeah, Wolfenstein 3D got forbidden
19:19.47mxsthat is, not just on the index, but forbidden to own or obtain
19:20.21mxssame for the US version of Doom
19:20.29mxs(remember that bonus level shaped like a swastika -- well, yeah.)
19:20.46Kirkburnd'oh
19:20.48mxsThey took that level out in the German version :)
19:21.07mxsit was deliberate, the bonus level says something akin to "Hello Mr. Kohl !" (Helmut Kohl was Chancellor at the time)
19:21.56mxsNot that anybody really cared. Wolfenstein still got exchanged on school grounds on good old floppies
19:22.18mxs"gouden daaag" -- one of the best opening lines by any character, ever
19:22.28mxs(it was the fat guy with the minicannon :)
19:23.25Gnarfoz<mxs> which is an effective death-sentence for any mass-marketed product <-- yeah... not.
19:23.52Gnarfozcrap that get's on the index was crap anyway, high-profile stuff even sells *better* :X
19:24.29Gnarfozalso, parents are oblivious to it anyway, so teens get their hands on it either way ;x
19:24.59mxsGnarfoz: of course they did. I'm not claiming the index was effective. It was, however, a commercial death sentence.
19:25.00Fisker-I heard there were hardcore PORNOGRAPHY in mass effect
19:25.16mxsGnarfoz: you can't advertize an indexed title
19:25.23Gnarfozit certainly looks like one, sales numbers speak another language, though
19:25.26Gnarfozand it's advertise :P
19:25.30mxsask any publisher how well unadvertized games sell
19:25.46Gnarfozsure, gonna ask whoever distributed q3a ;X
19:25.48Fisker-better than crysis lololol
19:25.51Gnarfozor q4
19:26.04mxsGnarfoz: oh come on, id Software is the one exception. Everybody knows id Software.
19:26.05Gnarfozbtw, yay for retroactive censorship :D
19:26.22Gnarfozlike I said: crap that got on the index was crap anyway *g*
19:26.29mxsyeah, Metroid for the NES is a Killergame ! :P
19:26.38Gnarfozobviously
19:26.46mxsGnarfoz: well, then let's be fair
19:26.54mxslet's compare crap on the index to crap not on the index, but heavily advertized
19:27.08Gnarfoz-z+s (agh you hurt my eyes :P)
19:27.18mxsI spent a year in the US.
19:27.21mxsThey branded my English.
19:27.42Gnarfozsry, advertize is wrong in AE, too
19:27.48mxstrue
19:28.02mxsfucking yanks, inconsistent flipfloppers :>
19:28.25mxsjust be thankful that I learned my lesson on explanations. They used to be explantations.
19:28.26Gnarfozthe mistook me for a briton :X
19:28.33mxsNobody EVER noticed or told me.
19:29.32mxsI also loved the teachers in the US. I once used "deduce" in a sentence. Teacher was impressed. Teacher wanted to hear my definition of the word so she could see whether I knew that I used it correctly.
19:29.37mxsTeacher did not agree with my definition.
19:29.47mxsMy definition agrees with webster's.
19:29.55mxserr Webster's
19:30.07mxsthis was the person teaching English 4 AP
19:30.50mxsThe most amazing part of that conversation was that she was unable to produce a definition when asked :P
19:31.21Gnarfozobvious teacher is obvious.
19:31.46Gnarfozhates his totally broken pally :X
19:32.42BagginswwI'm looking forward to the new Wolfentstein
19:33.25mxsI'm not, I didn't like any of the subsequent stuff
19:33.37mxsthen again, Q3A will forever remain my definition of Quake
19:34.07mxsI mean, how can you improve on THAT
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20:02.55g0urraNitro tha CiMien
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20:04.37g0urraNitro tha CiMien
20:05.17Fisker-flee g0urra
20:05.22Fisker-FLEE BEFORE I LOSE ALL SENSE OF CONTROL
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20:21.11winkilleroh man, my literary skills are totally wasted
20:21.20winkillerpeople sheep early
20:21.21winkilleror the mob will come to us
20:21.21winkillerwhat a cool haiku
20:24.15Sky2042_afkthat last line is week.
20:24.18Sky2042_afkmake it better imo
20:25.51winkillerit took 5secs during a fight.
20:26.06winkilleror better between 2 pulls
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20:28.10Sky2042Kirkburn|sleep, poke.
20:32.14kd3eesh.. 458MB patch while I was on vacation
20:34.52mxskd3: at least there is a mirror for it :P
20:35.41kd3indeed. much appreciated
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20:50.14Kirkburn|sleepSky2042, ?
20:50.29Sky2042Kirkburn|sleep, uh, sec.
20:50.32Sky2042digs links up.
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20:51.01Sky2042Perhaps http://warcraftworld.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page should be redirected?
20:51.33Sky2042as well, I'm a little wondrous why http://warcraftmods.wikia.com/wiki/Warcraft_Mods_Wiki was allowed to be opened.
20:51.45Sky2042the second is from August 21 of this year.
20:51.59Kirkburn|sleepIt's intended for RTS mods
20:52.11Sky2042Which is more of the stuff we need.
20:52.12Kirkburn|sleepThe former, good point, I'll check up
20:52.13Sky2042Right?
20:53.27Kirkburn|sleepif it goes nowhere, yeah
20:53.31Sky2042The request included Starcraft also, but wouldn't it be better to call it blizzard modding or RTS modding? Also, the request actually included WoW also.
20:53.38Sky2042>_>
20:53.50Kirkburn|sleepYeah, well, that part was just silly :P
20:54.05g0urralol modding WoW
20:55.00g0urra"download this mod, it'll show you coords, UBER LEET HAX"
20:55.01Sky2042that's what ace wiki is for, isn't it?
20:55.01Sky2042:P
20:55.01Kirkburn|sleepI have a longstanding veto on Warcraft wikis, but the mods one I said okay because it's not something we specialize in much (wanted to see if it would actually go anywhere)
20:55.17Sky2042heh
20:55.27Sky2042well, poke someone to redirect the other, of course.
20:55.37Kirkburn|sleepWill get it looked at
20:55.37Sky2042and keep an eye on this modding one :P
20:55.49Sky2042otherwise, go back to bed.
20:57.03Kirkburn|sleepThere is also http://warcraft3pc.wikia.com/wiki/Warcraft_III_PC which was created during a short "accept all wikis" test. It's likely to close (also, I wasn't happy about it).
20:57.57Kirkburn|sleepAnyway, back to bed. Thanks :)
21:19.42sacarascJust topped 1400 dps in a boss fight... *happy*
21:21.13Sky2042weaksauce!!!
21:24.46sacarascwe're a T5 raiding guild currently, I think that's pretty good
21:25.20Sky2042Nowai. You needs over 9000!!!!
21:25.36sacarascmaybe next week
21:25.52Sky2042Oh.
21:25.54Sky2042Okai.
21:26.05Sky2042I will attempt to remember to ask you about it.
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21:58.03Osehai bagginsww
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22:12.43g0urrahello earthmeLon
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22:14.40g0urrahello earthmeLon
22:17.22Fisker-slaps g0urra around a bit with a large trout
22:18.14g0urraNitro tha CiMien
22:19.15Fisker-you can't stop me
22:31.53Sandwichman2448Well, since Baggins (with or without trailing Ws in various amounts) is not here, I will voice my comment regardless.
22:33.15Sandwichman2448While charged with lore, his moving or Orcish from the language to a redirect to orc has caused the pages that linked there to make little sense. Proper word useage or not.
22:33.56Sandwichman2448It needs cleaning or to be moved back. I do not know his reasons, and I respect them.
22:34.26Sandwichman2448Also, orcish was only an example. It was all of them.
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22:53.26g0urraNitro tha CiMien
22:57.00g0urraNitro tha CiMien
22:58.16g0urraNitro tha CiMien
22:58.29sacarascwhat do you mean, g0urra?
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23:02.10pcjmain page portal switching now implemented
23:13.59Sandwichman2448I thik a disambig works.
23:14.08Sandwichman2448s/thik/think/
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23:25.52Sandwichman2448Blizzplanet is infalliable, so not DNP. http://www.wowwiki.com/User_talk:Fandyllic/Jan_2008_thru_Apr_2008_Archive#Blizzplanet_lore
23:26.44Sandwichman2448[[Jedoga Shadowseeker]]
23:26.45DottedSandwichman2448 meant: www.wowwiki.com/Jedoga_Shadowseeker
23:26.54g0urraDid you even see what I removed was DNP?
23:27.17Sandwichman2448The model?
23:27.49g0urra"She is an untextured orc."
23:28.10Sandwichman2448I admit it was vague and low quality.
23:28.18Sandwichman2448But i can cite it.
23:29.02Sandwichman2448Perhaps I am missing context.
23:30.10g0urraIt's fine if you write "She is a female orc". You don't need to type it that she's missing textures.
23:30.30Sandwichman2448I see.
23:30.39Sandwichman2448Do I? I'll just put that.
23:30.46g0urraSure.
23:31.09g0urraThough I'm more inclined to write it when there's more information, as it just got released
23:31.21g0urraAhn'kahet, that is
23:32.01Sandwichman2448Still infalliable?
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23:32.55g0urrainfalliable?
23:33.16Sandwichman2448Did I spell it wrong?
23:33.31Corganwhy so silly g0urra
23:33.41g0urrawhy so highlight Corgan
23:33.50Sky2042_afkWhy so serious Corgan?
23:34.08g0urrawhy so good night Sky2042_afk?
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23:34.26Sandwichman2448Why so why so?
23:34.28Sky2042_afkOh, nuts.
23:34.32Sky2042_afkTouche.
23:35.43Sandwichman2448YeaH, I spelled it correctly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infallibility
23:35.51Sandwichman2448Being sober does that.
23:37.20Sandwichman2448Man.
23:38.11Sandwichman2448I may have deserved that.
23:39.08Sky2042_afkpcj, nice main page implementation. I was wondering about people who don't have js enabled; i'm sure you explained it to kb when you brought it up, but i don't want to go digging...
23:39.29pcjit works the same as it used to
23:39.40pcji just moved the navigation to Portal:Main
23:39.50pcjand if they have JS implemented the new function
23:40.02Sky2042_afkcoolio.
23:40.08Sandwichman2448Agreed.
23:40.19Sky2042_afkso they end up at Portal:WotLK if they don't have js enabled, rather than the tab, correct?
23:40.46pcjRight
23:43.32Sandwichman2448I am unsure what each user considers mature at any given time, and if someone leaves after I say something remotely odd with out giving a reason (i.e. sleep), I blame myself. See g0urra.
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