| 00:00.38 | Bagginsww | well then you have to break down what each domain is |
| 00:00.55 | Bagginsww | war is offensive defense isn't it? |
| 00:01.11 | Zeal | can be |
| 00:01.19 | Bagginsww | in other words it can be used for protection |
| 00:01.28 | Bagginsww | so can healing |
| 00:01.34 | Zeal | then defeats the point of proection existing :p |
| 00:01.45 | Bagginsww | let me see how its broken down |
| 00:02.15 | Bagginsww | protection aura, divine protector. are basic spells in it. |
| 00:02.18 | Zeal | or you'd have to dig down to another level of classification.. which is my point, they should pick some proper build blocks and stop screwing around. |
| 00:02.27 | Bagginsww | elune has those spells too |
| 00:02.35 | Bagginsww | but she's also built around many domains |
| 00:02.44 | Bagginsww | there is alot of cross over |
| 00:02.57 | Zeal | i know, but at the basic level, you should have none. |
| 00:03.10 | Bagginsww | the problem is alot of these things are based on early DnD stuff and even myth and legendary domain concepts :p |
| 00:03.20 | Bagginsww | like tarot card like stuff ;p |
| 00:03.21 | Zeal | aye |
| 00:03.41 | Bagginsww | belive me since when did human myth or legend ever make sense? |
| 00:03.48 | Bagginsww | different people with different beliefs |
| 00:03.56 | Zeal | i've been trying to wrap my head around Ah! My Godddess (Anime/Manga) lore lately. |
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| 00:04.15 | Bagginsww | lol |
| 00:04.22 | Bagginsww | eastern mythology will drive you nutz :) |
| 00:04.42 | Bagginsww | that's what makes final fantasy the movie so weird |
| 00:04.53 | Bagginsww | a weird combination of eastern concepts and wester scifi |
| 00:04.59 | Bagginsww | *western |
| 00:05.24 | Zeal | well it's mostly based in norse mythology. |
| 00:06.37 | Bagginsww | but with no eastern twists? |
| 00:06.53 | Bagginsww | I find alot of anime will take from a western idea but blend in eastern |
| 00:07.29 | Zeal | only eastern stuff is the everyday life and cutlure of japan. |
| 00:07.38 | Bagginsww | ahh |
| 00:08.04 | Bagginsww | surprised they don't have any buddhists or whatever in it. |
| 00:08.25 | Bagginsww | taoists, and other eastern religions. |
| 00:09.31 | Bagginsww | alright zeal, far seers, get the Summon spirit allies" |
| 00:09.34 | Bagginsww | spell/ability |
| 00:09.44 | Zeal | kk |
| 00:09.48 | Bagginsww | its exactly like the summon nature's ally |
| 00:09.53 | Bagginsww | except they come from spiritual connection |
| 00:09.59 | Zeal | what type of magic? |
| 00:10.01 | Bagginsww | rather than specifically nature |
| 00:10.07 | Zeal | yeah. |
| 00:10.11 | Bagginsww | well shamanism is its own magic type |
| 00:10.13 | Bagginsww | in the rpg |
| 00:10.19 | Zeal | ah, kk. |
| 00:10.34 | Bagginsww | both are nature, but nature is nature, and shamanism is spiritual nature |
| 00:10.47 | Bagginsww | [[nature]] please work :p |
| 00:10.48 | [NewsBot] | Bagginsww meant: http://www.wowwiki.com/nature |
| 00:11.02 | Zeal | lol |
| 00:11.06 | Bagginsww | Fortelling |
| 00:11.08 | Bagginsww | new domain |
| 00:11.12 | Bagginsww | from the hpg |
| 00:11.18 | Bagginsww | added to far seers |
| 00:12.05 | Bagginsww | even arcane has its ties to nature of course, just more corrupted nature |
| 00:12.40 | Bagginsww | why mages can summon elementals, just like shamans, but they go about it a different way |
| 00:12.49 | Zeal | *cough*teldrassil*cough* |
| 00:13.09 | Zeal | aye baggins |
| 00:13.37 | Bagginsww | well, teldrassyl is a special case. as far as we know they didn't use arcane to create it |
| 00:13.54 | Bagginsww | and something is corrupting it |
| 00:14.25 | Zeal | they didn't, thought it was said staghelm and his nubs augmented the growth with arance magic. |
| 00:14.31 | Zeal | *they didn't? |
| 00:14.32 | Bagginsww | oh he did? |
| 00:14.36 | Bagginsww | I don't remember honestly |
| 00:14.40 | Zeal | i could be wrong. |
| 00:14.49 | Bagginsww | but we know that druids can accelerate growth through nature magic |
| 00:14.53 | Zeal | i just know whatever he did, i blame him :P |
| 00:14.59 | Zeal | aye |
| 00:15.05 | Bagginsww | he's either at fault or he's being framed |
| 00:15.20 | Bagginsww | he's weird one |
| 00:15.28 | Bagginsww | he's definitely a rude bastard even if he's not at fault ;) |
| 00:15.36 | Bagginsww | xenophobic prick |
| 00:15.46 | Zeal | indeed |
| 00:15.59 | Zeal | Tyrande really needs to kick his ass. |
| 00:16.02 | Bagginsww | but ya |
| 00:16.11 | Bagginsww | [[Green Havens]] |
| 00:16.12 | [NewsBot] | Bagginsww meant: http://www.wowwiki.com/Green_Havens |
| 00:16.15 | Zeal | hopefully malfurion will at soem point :P |
| 00:16.39 | Bagginsww | ya I'd like to konw if he really backstabbed malfurion or if that's just common belief. |
| 00:17.08 | Bagginsww | or is he innocent and possibly black dragons or something else behind it? |
| 00:17.17 | Bagginsww | old gods or whatever |
| 00:17.36 | Zeal | aye |
| 00:18.08 | Zeal | many many question that still need answers in wow ^_^ |
| 00:18.12 | Bagginsww | another possibility that he's possessed and not actually in control of all his actions |
| 00:18.33 | Bagginsww | in other words he might actually be innocent, but an unowing pawn. |
| 00:18.41 | Zeal | this were we see a mini c'thun on the back of his neck controlling him.. lol |
| 00:18.46 | Bagginsww | heh heh |
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| 00:19.36 | Bagginsww | he must have been a reasonably nice guy at one time, loss of his son may have influenced how he is now too |
| 00:20.03 | Bagginsww | but we get mixed stories on his character from different people and sources :p |
| 00:22.55 | Zeal | he seemed like a typical arrogant and xenophobic nelf of old in a position of power to me, still seems that way. |
| 00:25.22 | Zeal | though mild compared to illidan :P |
| 00:25.42 | Zeal | similar to that guy i forget in wota. |
| 00:25.48 | Zeal | but not as cowardly. |
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| 00:31.37 | Bagginsww | I never got to experience his involvment in the shifting sands war |
| 00:32.09 | Zeal | plenty to read on it. |
| 00:32.26 | Zeal | and only seen the video of the events myself. |
| 00:34.02 | Bagginsww | saw the vidoe but you can't read the text very well :p |
| 00:34.34 | Zeal | "Arcane magic is made possible by the energies Norgannon gave to Malygos, who in turn gave them to the Well of Eternity." Malygos didn't do anything to the well, was the titans themselves no? :S |
| 00:36.25 | Bagginsww | hmm? |
| 00:36.36 | Bagginsww | what you quoting? |
| 00:36.50 | Zeal | [[Magic]] |
| 00:36.51 | [NewsBot] | Zeal meant: http://www.wowwiki.com/Magic |
| 00:37.35 | Bagginsww | hmm I didn't make that page :p |
| 00:37.50 | Bagginsww | [[Arcane]] |
| 00:37.51 | [NewsBot] | Bagginsww meant: http://www.wowwiki.com/Arcane |
| 00:38.21 | Bagginsww | I don't see anything about malygos |
| 00:39.17 | Zeal | aye |
| 00:39.25 | Zeal | recall it being specifically said as the titans. |
| 00:39.46 | Bagginsww | and as for norgannon we'd have to check S&L |
| 00:39.55 | Bagginsww | that's the main source of titan info |
| 00:40.17 | Bagginsww | [[Malygos]] |
| 00:40.18 | [NewsBot] | Bagginsww meant: http://www.wowwiki.com/Malygos |
| 00:40.24 | Bagginsww | nothing there either as far as I can tell |
| 00:40.34 | Bagginsww | that has most of the transcript from s&L |
| 00:41.13 | Bagginsww | nope nothing in S&L |
| 00:41.27 | Bagginsww | I think someone just assumed it because Malygos is the aspect of magic |
| 00:41.59 | Zeal | remember arguing with someone on a forum because they wouldn't conceed to the fact that arcance is inherently corrupting, and that the degree simply depends on the person. |
| 00:42.07 | Zeal | aye |
| 00:42.08 | Arcane_NB | I need to adjust my alert filter. The word Arcane just pops up to often in here |
| 00:42.14 | Zeal | haha |
| 00:43.24 | Bagginsww | unless your one of those strange |
| 00:43.26 | Zeal | i don't like the way you're handling the elements in relation to arcande. but i need to read some mroe first. |
| 00:43.34 | Bagginsww | [[Uncorrupted Warlock]] |
| 00:43.35 | [NewsBot] | Bagginsww meant: http://www.wowwiki.com/Uncorrupted_Warlock |
| 00:43.46 | Bagginsww | or [[Uncorrupted Necromancer]] |
| 00:43.47 | [NewsBot] | Bagginsww meant: http://www.wowwiki.com/Uncorrupted_Necromancer |
| 00:45.37 | Zeal | aye, no degree is a degree too :p |
| 00:45.59 | Zeal | all about the ability, will etc. of the weilder. |
| 00:46.40 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Uncorrupted_Necromancer |
| 00:46.41 | Bagginsww | now it works |
| 00:46.57 | Zeal | hm.. you;re reworking the structure off the magic articles completely right? cos it's a bit of a roundabout atm, not making much sense. |
| 00:47.34 | Bagginsww | the magic article? |
| 00:47.40 | Bagginsww | not my article :p |
| 00:47.44 | Zeal | articles |
| 00:48.04 | Zeal | arance->frost->school#frost |
| 00:48.20 | Bagginsww | lin the arcane? |
| 00:48.25 | Zeal | and by that point, the meaning and flow of where the article is going is lost. |
| 00:48.30 | Zeal | yeah, same with fire too i think. |
| 00:48.40 | Bagginsww | school page isn't my work |
| 00:48.44 | Zeal | i know |
| 00:48.56 | Zeal | that's why i'm saying the whole lot needs restructuring :P |
| 00:49.15 | Bagginsww | those are just external links added to the page |
| 00:49.31 | Bagginsww | the rpg isn't actually very specific about sub categories |
| 00:49.35 | Bagginsww | arcane is just arcane |
| 00:49.51 | Bagginsww | you'd have to go to the individual spells to find out what kind of discriptors they have |
| 00:49.59 | Bagginsww | and that would be a lot of work |
| 00:50.26 | Bagginsww | there is no huge article about frost, fire, fel, etc |
| 00:50.29 | Bagginsww | well fell ya |
| 00:50.31 | Bagginsww | *fel |
| 00:50.36 | Zeal | well i take my understanding of it from the novels. arcane is used to conjour elementals and manipulate the elements. no sub-categories. |
| 00:50.36 | Bagginsww | didn't mean to type that one up |
| 00:50.59 | Bagginsww | well it has subcategores elemental is split into four subcategories |
| 00:51.12 | Bagginsww | frost/water, fire, earth, and air |
| 00:51.25 | Bagginsww | a mage can summon all four |
| 00:51.31 | Bagginsww | but generally only summons water |
| 00:51.36 | Bagginsww | as the others are harder to control |
| 00:51.49 | Bagginsww | and summoning air often turns into those corrupt mana surges |
| 00:52.08 | Zeal | and from the rpg mage class, mages are the oens that specilize in the use of manipulating the elements, conjuror is self explanitory. thne you have the the further specialisations of the "mancers" |
| 00:52.16 | Bagginsww | btw I'll probably expand that article to include the rpg schools |
| 00:52.17 | Bagginsww | too |
| 00:52.23 | Zeal | cool |
| 00:52.41 | Bagginsww | summoning is a subschool of conjuration |
| 00:52.53 | Bagginsww | conjuration includes the elemental summoning spells iirc |
| 00:53.00 | Bagginsww | conjuraiton is a school |
| 00:53.04 | Zeal | yeah, air doesn't seem to be one they choose, where's that mana surge part from? |
| 00:53.12 | Bagginsww | MG and MoM |
| 00:53.20 | Zeal | is it on the wiki at all? |
| 00:53.20 | Bagginsww | well specifically MG |
| 00:53.22 | Bagginsww | yes |
| 00:53.26 | Zeal | cba to pull stuff out :P |
| 00:53.29 | Bagginsww | [[Man Surge]] |
| 00:53.30 | [NewsBot] | Bagginsww meant: http://www.wowwiki.com/Man_Surge |
| 00:53.36 | Bagginsww | [[Mana surge]] |
| 00:53.38 | [NewsBot] | Bagginsww meant: http://www.wowwiki.com/Mana_surge |
| 00:53.41 | Zeal | np ;) |
| 00:54.04 | Bagginsww | the bit aobut mana surges possibly being related to all elements is from TBC |
| 00:54.16 | Bagginsww | specifically Arcane elementals |
| 00:54.36 | Zeal | hm.. [[Mana Surge]] needs merging? |
| 00:54.38 | Bagginsww | you end up having to summon these four elementals one of each type and they end up being formed into one |
| 00:54.43 | Bagginsww | nah npc specific article |
| 00:54.49 | Zeal | ah |
| 00:54.55 | Bagginsww | mana surge is general nickname for all the types |
| 00:55.18 | Zeal | i'd probably redirect tbh, both seem genric |
| 00:56.00 | Bagginsww | nah MG uses mana surge as a category for the type |
| 00:56.12 | Bagginsww | where as in the game you have dozens of types of mana surges |
| 00:56.22 | Bagginsww | Mana Surge is just one of them |
| 00:57.16 | Zeal | yeah |
| 00:57.27 | Bagginsww | wiki policy currenlty is to have mob names spelled in caps liek they are in game. Where as if npc belongs to a larger category, the larger category is in lower case |
| 00:57.31 | Zeal | both articles are generic, they encompass all types. |
| 00:57.43 | Bagginsww | the Mana Surge article is for a specific mob |
| 00:57.48 | Bagginsww | called "Mana Surge" |
| 00:57.51 | Zeal | well it's not written that way. |
| 00:58.11 | Zeal | as it's talking about multiple different types of them. |
| 00:58.22 | Bagginsww | it says "its a basic type" |
| 00:58.32 | Bagginsww | MG was split into two groups |
| 00:58.42 | Zeal | hm? |
| 00:59.11 | Bagginsww | Mana surge article, then there was "Mana surge" and the "Mana Burst" or something like that |
| 00:59.20 | Bagginsww | both under the same heading |
| 00:59.32 | Bagginsww | and the general information about both |
| 00:59.41 | Zeal | not seeing that on either.. |
| 00:59.55 | Bagginsww | ya you do, you just don't have the original book to see the context ;p |
| 01:00.03 | Bagginsww | It was like this |
| 01:00.05 | Bagginsww | =Heading== |
| 01:00.16 | Bagginsww | then general information |
| 01:00.21 | Bagginsww | about Mana surges in general |
| 01:00.29 | Zeal | MS is talking about multiple types of them. ms is talking about multiple types of them and it just one paragraph, which actually is onyl a rewrite of the same paragraph in the other article. |
| 01:00.50 | Zeal | they need to be reworked or merged. |
| 01:00.57 | Bagginsww | what its missing is the level information |
| 01:01.02 | Bagginsww | and where you see the mob |
| 01:01.53 | Bagginsww | like most mob pages |
| 01:02.04 | Bagginsww | someone needs to add the lorely (sp?) bot to it |
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| 01:02.16 | Zeal | switch round what i said actually >_; |
| 01:03.06 | Zeal | ok.. the title i backwards then. because the nPC should be Mana Surge, current it's Mana surge |
| 01:03.10 | Zeal | *is |
| 01:03.17 | Zeal | based on what you jsut told me. |
| 01:03.21 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Mana_Surge |
| 01:03.38 | Bagginsww | http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/mob.html?wmob=6550 |
| 01:03.42 | Zeal | making me confuse myself.. lol |
| 01:03.44 | Bagginsww | The mob is Mana Surge |
| 01:03.50 | Bagginsww | all mobs are in caps |
| 01:03.51 | Zeal | i know |
| 01:04.07 | Bagginsww | however if an article encompases more than just a single mob |
| 01:04.17 | Bagginsww | then we use a lower case title |
| 01:04.23 | Bagginsww | as is used in the source material |
| 01:04.25 | Zeal | sigh i hate media wiki |
| 01:05.17 | Kirkburn | It's more a problem with WoW and encyclopedias |
| 01:05.25 | Zeal | fucking get rid of the category namespace, merge category functionality into all namespaces.. makes sense for Mana surge to be a category, not an article. isntead it's an article about a category with no corresponding category.. -_- |
| 01:05.38 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest:Mana_Surges |
| 01:06.01 | Zeal | i know. |
| 01:06.04 | Bagginsww | actually its supposed to have a category |
| 01:06.14 | Bagginsww | it does |
| 01:06.20 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Category:Mana_Surges |
| 01:06.31 | Bagginsww | and yes for some reason categories are always capped |
| 01:06.37 | Kirkburn | which, humourously should be "Mana surges" :P |
| 01:06.41 | Kirkburn | Blame Mikk |
| 01:06.44 | Bagginsww | LOL |
| 01:06.48 | Kirkburn | It's only fair, it is his fault |
| 01:06.52 | Bagginsww | lol |
| 01:07.08 | Bagginsww | at this point it would take alot of clean up :p |
| 01:07.12 | Bagginsww | for multiple categories |
| 01:07.21 | Kirkburn | The category policy was updated earlier to say sentence case, bots should be able to do it over time |
| 01:07.27 | Bagginsww | ahh |
| 01:07.28 | Zeal | i swear the mobs weren't in that cat when i jsut looked.. |
| 01:07.33 | Bagginsww | they are :p |
| 01:07.36 | Bagginsww | I haven't chagned anything |
| 01:07.45 | Bagginsww | but alot of things need to be added to that category |
| 01:07.45 | Zeal | oh wait, they aren't |
| 01:07.46 | Bagginsww | still |
| 01:07.56 | Zeal | onyl MS is, the others are missing. |
| 01:08.02 | Zeal | cos they're on bot request. |
| 01:08.07 | Zeal | that makes more sense.. |
| 01:09.21 | Bagginsww | personally if I was in controll all npc mobs would be written lower case |
| 01:09.25 | Bagginsww | like they are in the quest text |
| 01:09.49 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v |Pixel|] by Adys |
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| 01:10.09 | Zeal | :( |
| 01:10.40 | Zeal | if i was in control, there'd be an NPC namespace ;) |
| 01:10.47 | Bagginsww | We don't write, "Dark Iron Dwarf" even though there is a mob by that name lol |
| 01:10.57 | Bagginsww | which means? |
| 01:11.04 | Zeal | i would write it like that ;) |
| 01:11.30 | Bagginsww | write it like what? i'm confused |
| 01:11.38 | Zeal | Dark Iron Dwarf |
| 01:11.46 | Bagginsww | why? |
| 01:11.57 | Bagginsww | dwarf is always decapitalized in written text |
| 01:11.58 | Zeal | and [[NPC:Dark Iron Dwarf]] |
| 01:12.05 | Bagginsww | ok I like that |
| 01:12.09 | Bagginsww | same thing we do for quests |
| 01:12.32 | Bagginsww | then we could have the main articles lower case if its a lore info. |
| 01:12.36 | Zeal | not going to go into the argument, but because it's faction + race so i'd keep it capitilized in all cases. |
| 01:12.50 | Bagginsww | races are always lower case |
| 01:12.57 | Bagginsww | in the quest text |
| 01:13.01 | Bagginsww | and books |
| 01:13.03 | Zeal | as i said, not going into the argument ;) |
| 01:13.16 | Bagginsww | we don't even capitalize our own race |
| 01:13.21 | Kirkburn | lol |
| 01:13.25 | Zeal | lol |
| 01:13.35 | Kirkburn | iron dwarves is a complicated one |
| 01:13.38 | Bagginsww | which is funny if you look at scifi lke star wars |
| 01:13.48 | Bagginsww | humans are lower case, but every other race is caps |
| 01:13.58 | Kirkburn | It sounds like they should be capitalised, but then, it's like night elf |
| 01:13.58 | Zeal | don't worry baggins, should Kirkburn wish to, he could explain to you on my behalf, even if he doesn't agree. |
| 01:13.59 | Bagginsww | we do capitalize are ethnic groups |
| 01:14.36 | Bagginsww | Kirkburn Ironforge dwarf is usually capitalized because Ironforge is a place :p |
| 01:14.38 | Bagginsww | I think |
| 01:14.51 | Kirkburn | aye |
| 01:14.54 | Bagginsww | Dark Iron and Wildhammer is usually capitalized too |
| 01:14.57 | Kirkburn | [Faction] [race] |
| 01:15.09 | Bagginsww | *our ethnic groups :p |
| 01:15.52 | Bagginsww | Strangely Neanderthal is always caps |
| 01:15.56 | Kirkburn | Wildhammer is a specific grouping ... are they "hill dwarves"? |
| 01:16.08 | Bagginsww | yes a type of hill dwarves |
| 01:16.16 | Bagginsww | alot of sub-clans too |
| 01:16.28 | Zeal | oh? |
| 01:16.47 | Bagginsww | and Forsaken is very odd, its capped or non-capped |
| 01:16.49 | Kirkburn | Ah, there you go, so, Wildhammer dwarves are hill dwarves, [Faction] [race] are [species] |
| 01:16.55 | Zeal | 3 clans, named by their ruling family. multiple families. no? |
| 01:16.56 | Bagginsww | best I can tell depending if you speak of the race versus the faction |
| 01:17.08 | Bagginsww | 3 main clams |
| 01:17.09 | Bagginsww | *clans |
| 01:17.12 | Kirkburn | heh |
| 01:17.23 | Bagginsww | but each family name is usually a sub-clan |
| 01:17.34 | Bagginsww | sill called clans for easy of name :p |
| 01:17.42 | Bagginsww | *still |
| 01:17.45 | Bagginsww | *ease of name |
| 01:17.55 | Zeal | ah, kk. |
| 01:18.37 | Bagginsww | other confirmed clans include Stormpike clan and Stonefist clan |
| 01:18.38 | Kirkburn | Forsaken should always be capitalised imo, because it's not just undead humans (now, certainly) |
| 01:18.56 | Bagginsww | kirkburn the biggest issue is not all forsaken belong to the faction |
| 01:19.02 | Bagginsww | some are independent |
| 01:19.11 | Bagginsww | like Lord Barth |
| 01:19.24 | Kirkburn | I thought Forsaken was their faction name? |
| 01:19.37 | Kirkburn | Otherwise I thought they were just independent undead |
| 01:19.38 | Bagginsww | Forsaken is the faction name for the ones in the Horde |
| 01:19.55 | Bagginsww | But Barth left the faction |
| 01:20.07 | Bagginsww | and joined the Argent Dawn |
| 01:20.20 | Bagginsww | He despises the Forsaken |
| 01:20.30 | Bagginsww | considers them evil |
| 01:20.44 | Bagginsww | Argent Dawn do not like the Forsaken as well btw |
| 01:21.39 | Bagginsww | but ya all forsakena re independent undead but not all indepenent undead are forsaken. Forsaken are always those half-zombie like humans and elves |
| 01:21.57 | Bagginsww | the faction itself can include alot more types of undead |
| 01:22.09 | Kirkburn | Aye |
| 01:22.39 | Bagginsww | basically you could have an independent abomination |
| 01:22.50 | Bagginsww | its never going to be a 'forsaken' |
| 01:23.07 | Bagginsww | it oculd be a member of the Forsaken faction however |
| 01:23.23 | Bagginsww | yes this is as bad as the whole lordaeron disambig :p |
| 01:23.46 | Bagginsww | but ya its easier just to type it out as Forsaken and forget about it LOL |
| 01:24.23 | Bagginsww | but in that case it would be wrong to call Barth a Forsaken, as he has definitely left the organizaiton |
| 01:25.06 | Bagginsww | Zeal back to the clans |
| 01:25.13 | Bagginsww | apparently Ironforge clan was the original clan |
| 01:25.19 | Bagginsww | and broke down into the other 3 |
| 01:25.33 | Zeal | Humans in Warcraft are based on humans and are very similar to other fantasy world's takes on humans. Blizzard have taken their usual appraoch however, throwing in twists to set Humans apart from other fantasy Humans. |
| 01:25.35 | Zeal | lalala |
| 01:25.44 | Zeal | aye, that's right. |
| 01:26.15 | Bagginsww | they are not important at this point for the most part. |
| 01:26.25 | Bagginsww | As Bronzebeard rules the city now |
| 01:26.38 | Bagginsww | actually the Bronzebeard has rules the Ironforge Clan for generations |
| 01:26.45 | Zeal | always was Bronzebeards anyways. |
| 01:26.48 | Bagginsww | But they are a far more mimprtant clan |
| 01:26.48 | Zeal | yeah. |
| 01:26.52 | Bagginsww | *important |
| 01:26.58 | Thrae | "Such as, instead of being more of the average race with average strengths and weaknesses, in World of Warcraft, the Human race just...well, they just suck. But everyone picks them anyway out of familiarity." |
| 01:27.19 | Kirkburn | Zeal about the site ... nice design, the + and - buttons do nothing though |
| 01:27.22 | Bagginsww | in the rpg, humans and orcs both were the average races |
| 01:27.36 | Zeal | i know Kirkburn, not written the script for that yet :p |
| 01:27.39 | Bagginsww | that was they both didn't ahve "racial classes" |
| 01:27.40 | Kirkburn | heh |
| 01:27.47 | Kirkburn | The preview bar is cool |
| 01:27.52 | Zeal | ty. |
| 01:27.54 | Bagginsww | but they added optional racial class for orcs with the Horde Player's Guide |
| 01:28.06 | Kirkburn | Ooh, and it reloads |
| 01:28.12 | Bagginsww | Racial Class is a totally different kind of class that I haven't put into the wiki yet |
| 01:28.22 | Zeal | hm? |
| 01:28.27 | Bagginsww | but think of it as someone studying their ethnic background to become better at who they are. |
| 01:28.46 | Zeal | if you mean the website reloading, that's just soemthing i do for dev purposes, so i don't have to hit refresh ;) |
| 01:28.49 | Bagginsww | like training in their language, traditions etc |
| 01:29.12 | Bagginsww | Creature class is similar but for monster like creatures |
| 01:29.32 | Zeal | i get ya |
| 01:29.32 | Bagginsww | let's take half-orc racial class for example |
| 01:29.40 | Bagginsww | a or rather half-ogre |
| 01:29.59 | Bagginsww | half-ogre that takes that class, will gain more abilities shared with the ogre heritage |
| 01:30.10 | Bagginsww | his blood becomes more ogre-like |
| 01:30.16 | Zeal | M&S pressed apple juice pwns, but it gets really bitty near the bottom : / |
| 01:30.26 | Bagginsww | and he starts having the growth pattern of an ogre |
| 01:30.46 | Bagginsww | not nearly as strong mind you |
| 01:30.52 | Bagginsww | whereas an ogre can grow for every level |
| 01:31.05 | Bagginsww | half-ogre can only grow up to the 5th level |
| 01:31.34 | Bagginsww | where as most races are at their maximum height and weight when they begin |
| 01:31.36 | Zeal | so basically spenting points in learning aspects of your race, rather than learning to develop a your actual class. |
| 01:31.45 | Bagginsww | right |
| 01:32.12 | Bagginsww | it opens up some pretty nice abilities you couldn't get out of a standard class |
| 01:32.16 | *** join/#wowwiki elmargol_ (n=elmargol@host93-60-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 01:32.24 | Zeal | wonder if you learn enough for dwarves you would regress? ;) |
| 01:32.26 | Bagginsww | technically I think humans should get a racial class too. :p |
| 01:32.33 | Bagginsww | zeal ya |
| 01:32.43 | Bagginsww | they learn a stronger stone cunning |
| 01:32.48 | Zeal | nice |
| 01:32.48 | Bagginsww | and stone shape |
| 01:32.55 | [NewsBot] | WoW Insider: Blood Sport: Rock, paper, scissors? - |
| 01:33.01 | Bagginsww | titan heritage stuff |
| 01:33.05 | Zeal | yea |
| 01:33.19 | Zeal | probably that part i'm most looking forward to in wota |
| 01:33.24 | Zeal | more dwarf-titan info. |
| 01:33.27 | Bagginsww | stone cunnign basically being inherient knowledge of strengths and weaknesses in building materials |
| 01:33.39 | Zeal | *wotlk :P |
| 01:33.41 | Bagginsww | heh |
| 01:34.27 | Zeal | wonder if that's how they'll introduct inscriptions. |
| 01:34.41 | Bagginsww | orc racial class goes more into demonic, shamanistic heritage |
| 01:34.45 | Zeal | *introduce |
| 01:34.54 | Bagginsww | even though they are no longer demonic some of the abilities are still in their blood |
| 01:34.55 | Zeal | cool |
| 01:34.57 | Bagginsww | like rage |
| 01:35.01 | Zeal | yeah |
| 01:35.34 | Bagginsww | there was basic bits of that built into the race's basic starting skills, but racial class takes it further |
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| 01:35.46 | Zeal | wouldn't it be funky if orcs had ended up stuck with a curse similar to the blood andle in w40k? |
| 01:35.55 | Zeal | *angels |
| 01:35.55 | Bagginsww | so ya humans have racial skills, just no racial class :p] |
| 01:36.10 | Bagginsww | I don't know anything about warhammer sorry |
| 01:37.14 | Zeal | ah, basically they can become consumed with a blood rage, and they always have to tread a fine line, go over it and they snap and are usually just thrown into the battle at the front because they turn into pure unstopable killing machines until they die :p |
| 01:37.16 | *** join/#wowwiki AFKDuTempete (n=chatzill@c-69-243-137-249.hsd1.in.comcast.net) |
| 01:37.30 | Zeal | atleast soemthing along those lines, i could be a bit off. |
| 01:37.41 | Bagginsww | wow |
| 01:37.45 | AFKDuTempete | I has returnededed! |
| 01:37.55 | Zeal | greetings |
| 01:39.56 | DuTempete | <insert dog smiley> Kirkburn |
| 01:40.01 | Bagginsww | lol |
| 01:40.21 | Bagginsww | Ise needs a grrfiend |
| 01:40.56 | DuTempete | awwww, I'd hook you up with one of my friends, byt they don't believe in the interweb. |
| 01:41.07 | Kirkburn | <insert dog smiley> DuTempete ;) |
| 01:41.17 | Bagginsww | LOL I don't believe in web dating, ;) |
| 01:41.26 | DuTempete | It's not so bad. :P |
| 01:41.30 | Bibi | LOL DUTEMPETE IS A GIRL. |
| 01:41.33 | Bibi | PICS ? |
| 01:41.41 | DuTempete | LOL BIBI IS FRENCH |
| 01:41.45 | Bibi | ... |
| 01:41.47 | Bibi | that was mean. :( |
| 01:41.50 | Bagginsww | web dating is like long distance dating |
| 01:41.51 | Kirkburn | Gawd, please no pix |
| 01:41.56 | Zeal | Tits or GTFO? hehe, j/k. |
| 01:41.59 | Kirkburn | Of Bibi |
| 01:42.10 | DuTempete | I didn't ask for pics :P |
| 01:42.28 | Zeal | anyways /signed Bagginsww |
| 01:42.47 | Bagginsww | signed what? |
| 01:42.49 | DuTempete | it's worse when web dating IS long distance dating, bagginsww :P |
| 01:42.54 | DuTempete | your petition for a gf :P |
| 01:42.57 | Bagginsww | LOL |
| 01:43.03 | Kirkburn | heh |
| 01:43.14 | Bagginsww | I was afraid he was offering to be my girlfriend :p |
| 01:43.18 | DuTempete | hahaha |
| 01:43.35 | Bagginsww | either that or he was agreeing that web dating is like long distance dating |
| 01:43.41 | Zeal | plus done the online thing, its not enough and sadly i have a habbit of picking up the foreign ones, so nothing becomes of it. |
| 01:43.57 | DuTempete | yeah, the foreign ones are a pain in the ass... |
| 01:44.00 | Zeal | i was signing that i need a girlfriend too ;) |
| 01:44.00 | Bagginsww | :( |
| 01:44.06 | Bagginsww | heh |
| 01:44.06 | Bibi | I dated a girl on internet once |
| 01:44.09 | Bibi | but it didn't last long |
| 01:44.14 | Kirkburn | Damn foreigners :P |
| 01:44.17 | Bibi | my VISA got refused. :/ |
| 01:44.36 | Bagginsww | besides this day and age how do you know if they are real, or are just claiming to be who they aren |
| 01:44.38 | Zeal | 2 american, 1 hawaiian, 1 uk. lol nothing became of it. |
| 01:44.53 | Kirkburn | Bagginsww, webcam helps |
| 01:44.54 | Bibi | I tried dating Kirkburn but it didnt work well |
| 01:45.00 | Zeal | what Kirkburn said, lol. |
| 01:45.09 | Kirkburn | yeah, I found out he was french :( |
| 01:45.10 | Bagginsww | well I'm in hawaii, can't find anyone LOL |
| 01:45.11 | Zeal | lol Bibi |
| 01:45.16 | DuTempete | poor Kirkburn :( |
| 01:45.28 | Bagginsww | nah the problem is I'm too much of a nice guy... I end up being the friend :p |
| 01:45.41 | Kirkburn | But no mind, I found someone more suitable |
| 01:45.49 | Zeal | well i mentioned the hawaiian one to you Bagginsww, she was the oen that i was getting that info from for you. |
| 01:46.00 | Bagginsww | the teacher? |
| 01:46.18 | Zeal | teacher? student, though planning to become one, yeah. |
| 01:46.22 | Kirkburn | Is there like a whole backstory to you two that I don't know? |
| 01:46.22 | Bagginsww | ahh |
| 01:46.30 | Bagginsww | LOL |
| 01:46.31 | Zeal | but shes after a native now anyways ;) |
| 01:46.34 | DuTempete | oooh backstory! |
| 01:46.53 | Zeal | rofl Kirkburn, nope, just talked outside ww when i left. |
| 01:47.03 | Kirkburn | Aww, I wanted gossip |
| 01:47.03 | Zeal | unlike you, who was never on msn ;) |
| 01:47.16 | Bibi | I wish I had enough money to move to hawaii for the rest of my life |
| 01:47.19 | Bibi | Bagginsww, give me money. |
| 01:47.22 | Kirkburn | Not true, I'm always on MSN ... I just ... er ... answer for a very select few people |
| 01:47.28 | Zeal | lol |
| 01:47.32 | Bibi | acting like you're afk ? |
| 01:47.34 | Bibi | I do that too |
| 01:47.39 | Bagginsww | well you don't usually see it as a tourist, but there is such an anti-american movements here, and some hawaiians will scowl at you :p |
| 01:47.41 | Bibi | always online, pretty much never answering |
| 01:47.52 | Zeal | nah, you were set to "show as offline" you told me ;) |
| 01:47.54 | Bibi | don't care, not american. |
| 01:47.56 | Bagginsww | I didn't even know it was like this, LOL |
| 01:48.08 | DuTempete | That's what you get for going to school there. |
| 01:48.09 | Bagginsww | bibi its any foregner really |
| 01:48.18 | Bagginsww | nah its not everyone |
| 01:48.26 | Bagginsww | alot of people are very nice |
| 01:48.34 | Bagginsww | and actually don't liek the other organizations that are that way |
| 01:48.39 | Bagginsww | *like |
| 01:48.48 | Zeal | they're weary of foreigners is all, earn their respect and they're really kind people, or so i've been told. |
| 01:48.52 | Bibi | i'd move to any random country where life is cheap and where the bandwith reach 10mbits |
| 01:49.06 | Bagginsww | but ya there are organizations that blaim westerners for their troubles and want eveyrone to leave, its a minority within the minority really |
| 01:49.36 | Bagginsww | Ya Zeal like I said its not everyone, some are very very nice |
| 01:49.52 | Bagginsww | accepted me in right from the start |
| 01:49.57 | DuTempete | <insert dog smiley> Kirkburn |
| 01:50.02 | Zeal | they just like to know you have good intentions for being there. |
| 01:50.21 | Bagginsww | but like I said not all Hawaiians view politics the same way. |
| 01:50.26 | Zeal | aye |
| 01:50.32 | Bagginsww | some are very happy to be Americans |
| 01:50.54 | Bagginsww | well actually its probably the majority that are that way. as far as I know its the organizations that make up individual minorities |
| 01:51.06 | Bagginsww | that are anti foreigners |
| 01:51.37 | Zeal | it's like staghelm and his lackies vs. the rest of the night elves ;) |
| 01:51.42 | Bagginsww | LOL |
| 01:52.19 | Bagginsww | then there are those that would like soverenty back but historically konw that the soverein nation was made up of natives and naturalized citizens, and respect that. |
| 01:53.01 | Bagginsww | but that's where the problem arises each organization has its own opinion of what sovereignity should mean |
| 01:53.06 | Bagginsww | and none of them agree |
| 01:53.51 | DuTempete | I wonder what Kirkburn's opinion of foreighners is? |
| 01:54.16 | Kirkburn | Generally, good, but in certain cases, completely awesome. |
| 01:54.30 | DuTempete | Ah, well I think they're all trouble. |
| 01:54.39 | Bagginsww | My opinion is we are all part ofthe same earth, and cultural differences is cool. |
| 01:54.42 | Kirkburn | Well, there's always got to be a troublemaker |
| 01:55.10 | Kirkburn | Actually, maybe that's not something to hope for :P |
| 01:55.29 | DuTempete | Yes, I prefer no trouble at all. :P |
| 01:55.31 | Bagginsww | But I like differences and history, its the reason I like anthropology :) |
| 01:55.36 | Kirkburn | :O |
| 01:55.52 | Bagginsww | I don't like when differences are used to justify attacking another group :p |
| 01:56.06 | DuTempete | Dunno, attacking can be fun, Baggins... |
| 01:56.06 | Kirkburn | Agreed |
| 01:56.41 | Kirkburn | How rude! |
| 01:56.47 | DuTempete | Meanie :( |
| 01:56.55 | Bagginsww | lol |
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| 01:57.25 | DuTempete | I prefer to think of myself as not of any country at all. |
| 01:57.46 | Kirkburn | Fisker- and DuTempete ... the same person? |
| 01:57.55 | Zeal | lol |
| 01:57.56 | Bagginsww | LOL |
| 01:57.58 | DuTempete | NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| 01:58.11 | Kirkburn | I was only poking you to point your attention towards all these wonderous chocolate prezzies I had for you, but cause you poked me back, I snarfled them all :P |
| 01:58.34 | DuTempete | You would have snarfled them anyway. You can't restrain yourself around chocolate. |
| 01:58.36 | Bagginsww | lol |
| 01:58.46 | Kirkburn | This is true :P |
| 01:58.53 | Kirkburn | Unless it's dark chocolate |
| 01:58.58 | DuTempete | True. |
| 01:59.01 | Kirkburn | Only weirdos like that |
| 01:59.25 | Zeal | depends on the quallity, but on average it's nasty :/ |
| 01:59.38 | DuTempete | <insert dog smiley> Kirkburn |
| 01:59.44 | Bagginsww | you need ot acquire the taste for dark |
| 01:59.56 | DuTempete | Meh, I've always had it, bagginsww. |
| 02:00.01 | Bagginsww | I like it too |
| 02:00.06 | Bagginsww | I like all chocalate |
| 02:00.11 | Zeal | when it borders on tasting like "burnt" it's not nice, lol. |
| 02:00.17 | DuTempete | Dark chocolate + whiskey = teh win |
| 02:00.19 | Kirkburn | <insert Lindt chocolate dog smiley> DuTempete. |
| 02:00.29 | Bagginsww | even like occasional baking kind, even if that lacks sugar, LOL |
| 02:00.32 | Zeal | chocolate + sambuca = yum. |
| 02:00.38 | Zeal | *too |
| 02:00.53 | Kirkburn | Chocolate = yum. |
| 02:00.53 | Bagginsww | sorry I don't drink so I wouldn't know LOL |
| 02:01.03 | DuTempete | silly Baggins |
| 02:01.17 | Kirkburn | You'll die of thirst, y'know |
| 02:01.20 | Zeal | still pleased to say i've never been drunk |
| 02:01.39 | Bagginsww | Loves root beer. Try out strange varieties when I find it. |
| 02:01.42 | Kirkburn | DuTempete, we're surrounded by crazy people |
| 02:01.50 | Zeal | but when i do drink, i don't really hold back, drink what i like, but that's usually lots of spirits. |
| 02:01.58 | DuTempete | Kirkburn, are you sure we're not the crazy ones? |
| 02:02.06 | Zeal | don't like beer/larger |
| 02:02.07 | Kirkburn | Oh, wait ... er ... |
| 02:02.11 | Zeal | cider is ok. |
| 02:02.13 | Bagginsww | I'm temperate, LOL is that the term? |
| 02:02.17 | DuTempete | yum, cider! |
| 02:02.31 | Bagginsww | non fermented hot cider. Like that |
| 02:02.33 | Bagginsww | *I |
| 02:02.36 | DuTempete | Woodchuck black and tan = teh win! |
| 02:02.48 | Kirkburn | Temperate? You have deciduous forests and a medium amount of rain? |
| 02:02.57 | DuTempete | lol |
| 02:02.58 | Bagginsww | I do cook with wine or beer occasionally but that's the most I use it for LOL |
| 02:03.03 | Bagginsww | lol |
| 02:03.32 | Zeal | bulmers gold-label, only from hereford. Thankfully i have relatives there and have been to their orchids before ^_^ |
| 02:03.41 | Kirkburn | Are you roleplaying an entire zone today, or have you been reading too many RPG books? :P |
| 02:03.59 | Bagginsww | LOL |
| 02:04.01 | Bibi | I don't even read. |
| 02:04.04 | Kirkburn | Orchids? Orchards? |
| 02:04.05 | Bagginsww | Temperance? |
| 02:04.15 | DuTempete | as far as Bagginsww is concerned, there is no such thing as too many RPG books :P |
| 02:04.16 | Zeal | yeah, that too kirk :p |
| 02:04.30 | Bagginsww | how does one say I'm "Temperance"? that doesn't make sense, LOL. |
| 02:04.40 | Zeal | i still can't get those last few Bagginsww : / |
| 02:04.43 | DuTempete | you're tempermental? :P |
| 02:04.48 | Bagginsww | LOL |
| 02:04.48 | Zeal | er.. MoM, WCRPG etc. |
| 02:05.00 | Bagginsww | well considering they are out of print :p |
| 02:05.03 | Zeal | aye |
| 02:05.11 | Bagginsww | I own the pdfs and the originals |
| 02:05.17 | Bagginsww | my originals are back home |
| 02:05.18 | DuTempete | I'm sure you have them, Baggins |
| 02:05.18 | Zeal | what else.. M&M i think |
| 02:05.30 | Bagginsww | temptations? |
| 02:05.31 | Zeal | did manage to get APG though. |
| 02:05.37 | Bagginsww | good job |
| 02:05.46 | Zeal | get to see within temptation soon, yay. |
| 02:05.58 | Bagginsww | HPG without APG is like having half the A&HC, :p |
| 02:06.04 | Zeal | lol |
| 02:06.45 | Bagginsww | like I said MG isn't worth it, if your wanting lore. Its more mechanics than anything. |
| 02:06.53 | Zeal | aye |
| 02:07.07 | Bagginsww | some of the articles are good, but like I siad I'll probably add them to wiki as I get time ;) |
| 02:07.14 | Zeal | plus, getting banned put me off spending anymore money on the RPG ;) |
| 02:07.20 | Bagginsww | banned? |
| 02:07.27 | Zeal | from the forums, remember? |
| 02:07.31 | Bagginsww | oh |
| 02:07.32 | Bagginsww | ya |
| 02:07.34 | Zeal | lol |
| 02:07.56 | Bagginsww | not that it matters, if they are caput now ;) |
| 02:08.04 | Zeal | indeed |
| 02:08.08 | Bagginsww | I mean how did they expect to last with such low print runs |
| 02:08.09 | Zeal | my fingers are crossed ;) |
| 02:08.15 | DuTempete | So, yeah, back on the topic of foreigners, yeah, i would totally date one, but only if I liked the country. |
| 02:08.35 | Bagginsww | to be honest I love the rpg books, but if I'd be pleased to have one last thing to spend money on LOL |
| 02:08.42 | Bagginsww | *one less |
| 02:08.55 | Zeal | if i liked them and saw something becoming of it, sure, doesn't bother me. |
| 02:09.00 | Bagginsww | you also need to be careful about the laws of the country they are from |
| 02:09.06 | Kirkburn | Yay foreigners! |
| 02:09.13 | Zeal | lol Bagginsww |
| 02:09.32 | DuTempete | Well, and if that foreigner was really sexy. |
| 02:09.55 | Bibi | [03:05:56] <Bagginsww> HPG without APG is like having half the A&HC, :p |
| 02:09.55 | Kirkburn | :O |
| 02:10.09 | Bibi | Am I the only one who don't understand this kind of comment ? |
| 02:10.09 | Zeal | on the same topic, current south park ep on paramount +1 is the future immigrants one ;) |
| 02:10.17 | Bagginsww | well for exmaple a female who marries someoen from certain middle eastern countries will have a problem if they ever decide to visit that country,a nd theman decides to enforce the rules there |
| 02:10.48 | Bagginsww | especially if they bring their kids |
| 02:10.53 | Zeal | well i once considered going to america, but decided i'd be happier living here. |
| 02:11.00 | Zeal | so, that's my choice now. |
| 02:11.20 | Bagginsww | remember there are no cats in america, and the streets are made of cheese |
| 02:11.30 | Zeal | i like cheese.. |
| 02:11.37 | DuTempete | Somebody has watched too many cartoons... |
| 02:11.40 | Kirkburn | Wensleydale! |
| 02:11.44 | Bagginsww | what, that movie is a classic :p |
| 02:11.51 | DuTempete | where is here, Zeal? |
| 02:11.55 | Kirkburn | Btw, Wensleydale cheese is damn tasty |
| 02:11.59 | Zeal | dey tuk er jerbs! |
| 02:12.06 | Zeal | uk |
| 02:12.13 | Zeal | England to be specific. |
| 02:12.23 | DuTempete | Ah, England is ok. |
| 02:12.37 | Bagginsww | I needs to go on a journey of cheese discovery to where traditional non-processed cheese is made. |
| 02:12.37 | Zeal | it's not france, so it's all good ;) |
| 02:12.59 | Bagginsww | tour de europe. |
| 02:13.27 | Bagginsww | btw I tried limberger once... |
| 02:13.28 | Kirkburn | England is "okay"? :P |
| 02:13.35 | Zeal | gotta love it when what's said in irc overlaps :p |
| 02:13.36 | DuTempete | Yeah, just ok :P |
| 02:13.38 | Bagginsww | do not eat it without onions :p |
| 02:13.41 | Kirkburn | :( |
| 02:13.58 | Bagginsww | limberger does not go well by itself LOL |
| 02:14.25 | DuTempete | Mmmm Gouda |
| 02:14.43 | Bagginsww | I liked the texture though. Very smooth. But if i want smooth there are dozen other cheeses with simlar textures that don't require onions to mask the taste and oder. |
| 02:15.02 | Bagginsww | But I had to scratch that one off my list LOL |
| 02:15.26 | Zeal | i guess my taste is cheese is limited to some of the mroe usual ones. Chedder, Red leciester, Mozerela, Parmasan, feta, some others i don't really remember. |
| 02:15.36 | Arcane_NB | [[Wandering Plague}} |
| 02:15.43 | Arcane_NB | [[Wandering Plague]] |
| 02:15.43 | [NewsBot] | Arcane_NB meant: http://www.wowwiki.com/Wandering_Plague |
| 02:15.44 | DuTempete | Mozzarella |
| 02:16.01 | DuTempete | and parigian |
| 02:16.05 | DuTempete | err parmigian |
| 02:16.23 | Kirkburn | parmigiano :P |
| 02:16.25 | Zeal | never heard of that :s |
| 02:16.33 | Kirkburn | Parmesan :P |
| 02:16.35 | DuTempete | well, if you want to get really specific, Kirkburn :P |
| 02:16.39 | Kirkburn | hehe |
| 02:17.08 | Arcane_NB | shoot what is it called, you can get it from the hyeanas in 1k needles |
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| 02:17.26 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Saidan_Dathrohan&action=history |
| 02:17.36 | Bagginsww | what part of "he's dead" do people not understand? |
| 02:17.57 | Bagginsww | he may appear alive, but balnazzar is playing the puppet master of a corpse |
| 02:18.47 | Zeal | timesist! |
| 02:19.10 | Zeal | didn't realize he was dead before bal took him over. |
| 02:19.17 | Zeal | fun |
| 02:19.22 | Bagginsww | bal killed him |
| 02:19.26 | Bagginsww | to possess him |
| 02:19.32 | Zeal | funky |
| 02:19.32 | Bagginsww | its how his ability works |
| 02:19.42 | Zeal | yeah, not heard of it before |
| 02:19.52 | Zeal | only the type of necromancy they did in wota. |
| 02:21.45 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Balnazzar |
| 02:22.37 | Bagginsww | lol |
| 02:23.25 | Bagginsww | I hate the boss boxes |
| 02:23.43 | Bagginsww | I think there should be a limit to one infobox at a time :p |
| 02:23.59 | Bagginsww | or have infoboxes horizontal and put at the end |
| 02:24.09 | Bagginsww | verticle should be avoided |
| 02:25.42 | Zeal | i've got an idea, get rid of them all, use my tooltip template instead, and make good use of categories.. rofl >_>; |
| 02:26.43 | Bagginsww | lol |
| 02:26.47 | *** join/#wowwiki Daemona (n=me@c204130.adsl.hansenet.de) |
| 02:26.54 | Bagginsww | well I like the infobox stuff |
| 02:27.06 | Bagginsww | have you looked at the improved zone infoboxes? |
| 02:27.10 | Bagginsww | with demographic inofrmation |
| 02:27.27 | Bagginsww | its closer to wikipedia geographical boxes |
| 02:30.38 | Zeal | not bad. don't like the the styling, but getting better. |
| 02:31.24 | Zeal | http://www.wowwiki.com/Stratholme is broken btw, h scrolling. |
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| 02:32.49 | Zeal | oh god.. it's still a table. |
| 02:32.55 | Zeal | i take that all back, lol. |
| 02:34.12 | Bagginsww | scrolling? |
| 02:35.03 | Zeal | in ie7, there's a horizontal scroll bar showing up, scrolls onyl about 10px or something. |
| 02:35.36 | Bagginsww | I can't see it on a widescreen |
| 02:35.52 | Bagginsww | so whatever the problem it must be with regular monitors |
| 02:35.55 | Zeal | fixed pixel content must be causing it them. |
| 02:36.21 | Zeal | *then |
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| 02:38.14 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Saidan_Dathrohan so should we reword that last sentence? |
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| 02:38.31 | Bagginsww | perhaps point out more directly he was killed by Balnazzar who currently possesses his corpse? |
| 02:38.43 | Bagginsww | with additional citation ;p |
| 02:39.00 | Bagginsww | even though that's also stated in the grand crusader section |
| 02:40.30 | Zeal | perhaps simply as "He is was killed and his corpse is currently possed by Balnazzar" |
| 02:40.36 | Zeal | *-is |
| 02:41.19 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/User_talk:Baggins |
| 02:41.27 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/User_talk:Baggins#Consistent_reversion |
| 02:41.38 | Bagginsww | wow what an idiot posting a new post at the top of my talk page :p |
| 02:41.43 | Bagginsww | isntead of the bottom |
| 02:41.53 | Bagginsww | and I've warned him in his talk page not to add lore unless he can add citations |
| 02:42.01 | Bagginsww | most of his stuff was speculation anyways |
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| 02:43.39 | Zeal | lol |
| 02:43.52 | Zeal | why the hell does he think you're there to enforce all policies |
| 02:44.14 | Zeal | you're there to contribute where you can, and thats more often than not, lore. |
| 02:46.01 | Bagginsww | LOL |
| 02:47.01 | Zeal | do you patrol your watchlist or just RC? |
| 02:48.26 | Zeal | *-just |
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| 02:55.58 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/User_talk:Baggins#Consistent_reversion |
| 02:56.05 | Bagginsww | just RC |
| 02:56.11 | Bagginsww | I do not have anyone on a watch list |
| 02:56.20 | Bagginsww | although I probably should for certain individuals |
| 02:56.41 | Zeal | not saying you watch someone, meant your watchlist, for watching articles :p |
| 02:57.23 | Bagginsww | I thought you meant watchlist for individuals LOL |
| 02:57.45 | Bagginsww | I don't even watch specific articles |
| 02:58.59 | Bagginsww | kirkburn care ot leave any thoughts? |
| 02:59.47 | Kirkburn | I'm being distracted, gimme a few mins :P |
| 03:00.17 | Zeal | hm.. lol |
| 03:00.35 | Zeal | nice reply. |
| 03:00.55 | Bagginsww | k |
| 03:01.06 | DuTempete | I has nothing to do with it, I swear! |
| 03:01.11 | Bagginsww | I wasn't too harsh I hope? |
| 03:01.20 | Zeal | you'll go blind Kirkburn. |
| 03:01.48 | Bagginsww | and grow hair on his palms? |
| 03:02.16 | Bagginsww | and start producing estrogen... |
| 03:02.24 | Zeal | some people need a heavy hand, others need a swift kick. majority of people though, they need to be pounded into submission ;) |
| 03:02.30 | Bagginsww | LOL |
| 03:02.38 | DuTempete | I prefer the pounding into submission... |
| 03:02.48 | Zeal | lol |
| 03:04.22 | Bagginsww | sure it can relate to going blind, growing hairy palms and developing estrogen problems. |
| 03:04.40 | Bagginsww | heavy hands and pounding... |
| 03:04.50 | Bagginsww | and other old wives tales |
| 03:04.51 | Zeal | anyone here ever worked on writing a generic xml parser in php? |
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| 03:05.41 | Zeal | without recursive functions that is. |
| 03:08.08 | Zeal | managed to get the basic of one going, but without knowing the structure, building a correctly structured associative array seems impossible. settled on returning the data and trying to structure it outside the class, where i will know the structure, but even then, it's hard to setup the array without recursive functions : / |
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| 03:09.24 | Bagginsww | well take care all |
| 03:09.26 | Bagginsww | I'm away |
| 03:09.54 | Zeal | cya Bagginsww |
| 03:10.37 | pcj | DuTempete, wb, how's your family :) |
| 03:10.47 | DuTempete | oh god, you don't want to know |
| 03:10.55 | DuTempete | and I'm not in the condition to say it |
| 03:12.23 | pcj | Glad you're back anyway |
| 03:14.48 | DuTempete | Thanks, pcj :) |
| 03:15.25 | Kirkburn | Well, I'm slightly less glad :P |
| 03:16.00 | Kirkburn | =) |
| 03:16.54 | Zeal | :P |
| 03:17.39 | Zeal | lol |
| 03:18.32 | DuTempete | <insert dog smiley> Kirkburn |
| 03:18.46 | Kirkburn | What loop?? ;) |
| 03:18.56 | Kirkburn | <insert dog smiley> DuTempete |
| 03:19.07 | DuTempete | <insert bigger dog smiley> Kirkburn |
| 03:19.14 | Kirkburn | :O |
| 03:19.31 | Kirkburn | <insert infinity sized dog smiley> DuTempete |
| 03:19.46 | Zeal | Well, i've not been around for so long, so i don't really know who DuTempete is, and whats going on :p |
| 03:20.07 | Kirkburn | I don't think anyone does :) |
| 03:20.14 | DuTempete | That' ok Zeal, no one really knows what's going on with Kirkburn and me. :P |
| 03:20.24 | Zeal | ok, lol |
| 03:20.32 | Kirkburn | Well, that was well timed :) |
| 03:20.58 | DuTempete | hehe |
| 03:21.26 | Kirkburn | Hey, you stole my face! |
| 03:21.30 | Zeal | i'll leave it to my wild imagination ;) |
| 03:22.02 | DuTempete | far too imaginitive, Zeal. |
| 03:22.51 | Zeal | seems so backwards, that storing data in php to send to javascript is quicker and easier than reading xml into php and sending it to javascript.. |
| 03:22.59 | Zeal | you have no idea :p |
| 03:27.28 | Kirkburn | Sekrets are fun |
| 03:28.04 | Kirkburn | Zeal, you realise that few have any idea what you're talking about? :P |
| 03:28.23 | Kirkburn | At least, I don't :) |
| 03:28.25 | pcj | What's he referring to anyway |
| 03:28.25 | Zeal | i thought this chan was fully of programmers ;) |
| 03:28.32 | Zeal | didn't expect you to :p |
| 03:28.40 | Zeal | (full |
| 03:28.40 | Kirkburn | Obsessive WoW nerds, more like |
| 03:28.59 | Zeal | many things are fun btw ;) |
| 03:29.27 | Zeal | pcj, script i'm working on for my site. was seeking help on an php xml parser. |
| 03:29.38 | pcj | Ah |
| 03:30.05 | DuTempete | we aren't alll programmers. |
| 03:30.14 | Zeal | i know |
| 03:30.21 | Zeal | but knew there were a fair few. |
| 03:30.44 | DuTempete | but you're lucky that a few of us do |
| 03:30.44 | Zeal | i don't even call myself one anyways, i just know enough to get by. |
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| 03:53.17 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Talk:Lich_King#Arthas_classes_.28or_near-classes.29 |
| 03:54.49 | Zeal | thought you left :p |
| 03:55.06 | Bagginsww | still in my apartment was reading abit |
| 03:55.14 | Bagginsww | but thougth someone might find that intresting |
| 03:55.42 | Bagginsww | I won't be listing them up as his classes, since they aren't exactly hard evidence of him having those classes, some definitely aren't his class. |
| 03:56.37 | DuTempete | <insert dog smiley> Kirkburn |
| 03:57.53 | Kirkburn | <insert infinity plus one dog smilies> DuTempete :P |
| 03:58.16 | DuTempete | <insert infinity times infinity dog smilies> Kirkburn |
| 04:00.25 | DuTempete | night night wowwiki! |
| 04:00.35 | Kirkburn | <insert infinity to the power of infinity dog smilies> DuTempete |
| 04:00.45 | Kirkburn | Jinx no come backs! |
| 04:00.54 | DuTempete | !! |
| 04:01.08 | Zeal | <insert rscpa smiley> |
| 04:01.18 | Zeal | nn DuTempete |
| 04:01.46 | Zeal | *rspca |
| 04:02.41 | Kirkburn | Royal Society for the Protection of Animals for the confused |
| 04:02.52 | Zeal | lol |
| 04:03.11 | Zeal | put those dogs in an animal shelter ;) |
| 04:05.23 | Zeal | Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals to be exact ;) |
| 04:07.52 | Kirkburn | Dammit |
| 04:08.01 | Zeal | :p |
| 04:08.06 | Kirkburn | I was being distracted again, thanks for the correction ^^ |
| 04:08.16 | Zeal | lol |
| 04:08.38 | Kirkburn | Methinks I should be going to bed too |
| 04:10.21 | Zeal | american time, so nostalgic ;) |
| 04:10.29 | Zeal | nn then Kirkburn |
| 04:17.37 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Lich_King |
| 04:17.45 | Bagginsww | uh huh someone had him listed as a demigod... |
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| 04:25.38 | Zeal | demigod, hehe |
| 04:25.51 | Zeal | what should he be, thinking prior-arthas merge |
| 04:26.40 | Zeal | noticed soemthing, his class isn't listed as being Lich |
| 04:26.45 | Zeal | it's a class last i saw. |
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| 04:37.24 | Bagginsww | hmm? |
| 04:37.36 | Bagginsww | in the RPG we only have the merged version |
| 04:38.12 | Zeal | yeah i know, but he's clearly a lich |
| 04:38.25 | Zeal | even if they did neglect that part. |
| 04:38.48 | Bagginsww | and closest he has to classes in that is that cleric, healer/shaman and wizard :p |
| 04:38.56 | Bagginsww | he's a lich yes |
| 04:39.01 | Bagginsww | but that's not a class |
| 04:39.04 | Bagginsww | its a template |
| 04:39.10 | Zeal | sigh.. |
| 04:39.13 | Bagginsww | or rather a creature type |
| 04:39.15 | Zeal | stupid rpg |
| 04:39.20 | Bagginsww | its a type of undead |
| 04:39.26 | Bagginsww | its the same in mythology too |
| 04:39.26 | Zeal | i know |
| 04:39.29 | Bagginsww | lich was never a class :p |
| 04:39.36 | Zeal | not really |
| 04:39.51 | Zeal | it's as much of a class as dark ranger is |
| 04:39.55 | Bagginsww | its from german it means "corpse" |
| 04:40.09 | Bagginsww | liches have class types |
| 04:40.16 | Zeal | oh? |
| 04:40.20 | Bagginsww | they arnen't a class lo |
| 04:40.43 | Bagginsww | yes most liches are necromancers, wizards, mages, warlocks and the liek |
| 04:41.06 | Bagginsww | this has to do with the fact that mythology most were sorcrers and wizards to begin with |
| 04:41.11 | Bagginsww | in life |
| 04:41.12 | Zeal | is a lich not a new class that is simply a combination of certain aspect of those? |
| 04:41.20 | Bagginsww | not in mythology :p |
| 04:41.23 | Bagginsww | its a creature type |
| 04:41.26 | Zeal | don't care about mythology, totaly unrelated :p |
| 04:41.35 | Bagginsww | in rpg indiviudals have classes |
| 04:41.40 | Bagginsww | different types |
| 04:41.51 | Bagginsww | some are wizards, some mages, some warlocks some necroancers |
| 04:41.57 | Bagginsww | it follows mythology really |
| 04:42.14 | Bagginsww | even a few shamans |
| 04:42.40 | Zeal | a lich (creature) can only be a lich (class), a lich (class) can only be a lich (creature). still doesn't mean it's not a class. |
| 04:42.56 | Bagginsww | its not a class in the rpg :p |
| 04:43.00 | Bagginsww | its a template :p |
| 04:43.05 | Bagginsww | you put on other creatures |
| 04:43.20 | Bagginsww | i.e you kill acreature turn them into a lich |
| 04:43.24 | Bagginsww | through a process |
| 04:43.36 | Bagginsww | they retain whatever class they had in life |
| 04:43.41 | Bagginsww | which can vary |
| 04:43.49 | Zeal | if there's mroe variation in lore than what you'rs casying about existing classes (which is entirely ridiculous as a lich is never a single one of those) then fine. ie. a purely melee lich |
| 04:44.00 | Zeal | *saying |
| 04:44.16 | Bagginsww | nah they are always caster classes as far as I know. |
| 04:44.28 | Bagginsww | yes some liches are a single class. |
| 04:44.28 | Zeal | give that example, as it exists in wc3, but never explained in lroe afaik. |
| 04:44.30 | Bagginsww | some have more than one |
| 04:44.31 | Zeal | lies |
| 04:44.41 | Bagginsww | what is your problem? |
| 04:45.18 | Zeal | that i don't beleive any lichs can be those classes, a lich it's own class which is comprised on similar abilities as those classes. |
| 04:45.20 | *** join/#wowwiki Daemona (n=me@c186122.adsl.hansenet.de) |
| 04:45.22 | Zeal | *liches |
| 04:45.26 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Abrakkar_the_Wretched |
| 04:45.38 | Bagginsww | [[Kel'thuzad]] |
| 04:45.39 | [NewsBot] | Bagginsww meant: http://www.wowwiki.com/Kel'thuzad |
| 04:45.45 | Bagginsww | those are his post lich classes |
| 04:46.01 | Bagginsww | I think there was at least one more lich in the rpg as well. |
| 04:46.09 | Bagginsww | by the lich is in the monster guide too |
| 04:46.11 | Bagginsww | let me get the info |
| 04:46.24 | Bagginsww | its a monster not a class :p |
| 04:46.52 | Bagginsww | “Lich” is an acquired template that can be added to |
| 04:46.52 | Bagginsww | any humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the |
| 04:46.52 | Bagginsww | base creature). To become a lich, a candidate must be a |
| 04:47.04 | Bagginsww | spellcaster of at least 8th-level who demonstrates utter loyalty to the Scourge. (Typically, the |
| 04:47.04 | Bagginsww | Lich King elevates only necromancers to lichdom, but rumors speak of the occasional mage |
| 04:47.04 | Bagginsww | or shaman who also attains this status.) |
| 04:47.18 | Zeal | i know, i'm ignoring all the rpg gameplay crap, i always will. |
| 04:47.28 | Bagginsww | Some tales imply that a spellcaster with enough personal and magical |
| 04:47.29 | Bagginsww | strength can willingly turn himself into a lich, but these reports are |
| 04:47.29 | Bagginsww | unsubstantiated. |
| 04:47.34 | Zeal | i'll give you abrakkar |
| 04:47.43 | Bagginsww | its not just gameplay its lore too |
| 04:47.53 | Bagginsww | they just mix the gameplay with the lore |
| 04:47.58 | Zeal | but would like to see more so i can't just dismiss it with the rpg being lame ;) |
| 04:48.07 | Zeal | nope |
| 04:48.15 | Bagginsww | yes |
| 04:48.23 | Zeal | gotta look at how it can be done, that's merely one way. |
| 04:48.30 | Zeal | can easily be revered. |
| 04:48.35 | Zeal | *reversed |
| 04:48.39 | Bagginsww | and it wasn't even a class in the warcraft 3 either, just "heroes" |
| 04:48.44 | Zeal | i know |
| 04:48.55 | Bagginsww | give me one source where it as a class :p |
| 04:49.04 | Zeal | frost revents or w/e, they considered liches? |
| 04:49.19 | Zeal | ther is none, using common sense to determine if it should be. |
| 04:49.44 | Bagginsww | During his mortal life, the Lich King Ner’zhul |
| 04:49.44 | Bagginsww | commanded a number of orc warlocks and shaman. |
| 04:49.44 | Bagginsww | When Kil’jaeden and the Legion captured these wicked |
| 04:49.44 | Bagginsww | spellcasters after the destruction of Draenor, the demons |
| 04:49.44 | Bagginsww | ritually slew their prisoners and animated them into |
| 04:49.45 | Bagginsww | twisted, frightening parodies of their former selves. The |
| 04:49.47 | Bagginsww | resulting liches possessed tremendous magical powers, |
| 04:50.13 | Bagginsww | though their immortal, undead bodies were bound to |
| 04:50.13 | Bagginsww | Ner’zhul’s iron will. Since the liches showed unswerving |
| 04:50.13 | Bagginsww | loyalty to their master, Ner’zhul granted them control |
| 04:50.13 | Bagginsww | over the furious elements of the cold north. Since |
| 04:50.13 | Bagginsww | Draenor’s destruction, other necromancers of particular |
| 04:50.13 | Bagginsww | loyalty have also become liches. |
| 04:50.13 | Zeal | i now you're not used to me being like this btw Bagginsww, but now i care not for ww, i don't have to remain as neutral and be dismissive of things ;) |
| 04:50.13 | Bagginsww | frost revenant? |
| 04:50.23 | Bagginsww | well actually I can kick you, ;) |
| 04:50.36 | Bagginsww | I don't have to be so neutral either ;) |
| 04:50.47 | Bagginsww | Liches are among the most powerful spellcasters and |
| 04:50.47 | Bagginsww | allies of the Scourge, serving their master with evil |
| 04:50.47 | Bagginsww | intent and great power. Often, they command armies as |
| 04:50.48 | Bagginsww | generals, surrogates for the Lich King himself. They are |
| 04:50.48 | Bagginsww | deeply entwined with the cold power of the grave. As |
| 04:50.48 | Bagginsww | a rule, these creatures are power-hungry, devious, and |
| 04:50.50 | Bagginsww | vicious. They utilize their great intellect and dark powers |
| 04:50.52 | Bagginsww | not only to serve the Lich King, but also to defeat each |
| 04:50.54 | Bagginsww | other in subtle political machinations, gaining strength |
| 04:50.56 | Bagginsww | and renown from each opponent’s death. |
| 04:50.58 | Bagginsww | A lich resembles a skeleton with a chill blue glow |
| 04:51.00 | Bagginsww | emanating from within its bones. Liches often dress |
| 04:51.02 | Bagginsww | in flowing robes. Instead of walking on the ground as |
| 04:51.03 | Zeal | why would you? not illegal to express opinion, just not in the articles :P |
| 04:51.05 | Bagginsww | mortals do, liches float above it on frosty mist. |
| 04:51.30 | Bagginsww | cause its fun ;) |
| 04:51.35 | Bagginsww | and you just auto log back in |
| 04:51.38 | Zeal | "<@Bagginsww> frost revenant?" yes? |
| 04:51.44 | Bagginsww | form where? |
| 04:52.19 | Bagginsww | Human lich, Male Human Necromancer |
| 04:52.21 | Zeal | "Revenants are minor elemental creatures who once served as foot soldiers for the malefic Old Gods when the world was young." ok wtf now? |
| 04:52.24 | Bagginsww | Human necromancers are the most likely |
| 04:52.25 | Bagginsww | candidates for liches. These liches are evil, cunning, |
| 04:52.25 | Bagginsww | and loyal to the Lich King. They serve as generals of |
| 04:52.25 | Bagginsww | his armies and as advisors to other powerful members |
| 04:52.25 | Bagginsww | of the Scourge. This lich is somewhat inexperienced |
| 04:52.25 | Bagginsww | and probably new to his undead existence, but he is |
| 04:52.27 | Bagginsww | filled with power and arrogance. |
| 04:52.36 | Zeal | you can stop c&P ;) |
| 04:52.37 | Bagginsww | oh ya, those, not liches |
| 04:52.51 | Bagginsww | different creature altogether |
| 04:53.28 | Zeal | yeah, but elementals? surely not? their humanoid appearence, armour and weaponry completely contradicts that. |
| 04:53.48 | Bagginsww | umm actually lots of elementals wear armor |
| 04:54.16 | Zeal | but not ones that fit a humanoid form. |
| 04:54.16 | Bagginsww | and elementals can assume humoid shapes |
| 04:54.18 | Kirkburn | Night Zeal :P |
| 04:54.23 | Zeal | they can? |
| 04:54.24 | Kirkburn | (delayed reactions ftw) |
| 04:54.27 | Zeal | lol, nn |
| 04:54.52 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Fireelementalfem.JPG |
| 04:55.03 | Kirkburn | (people keep distracting me :( _ |
| 04:55.07 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Waterelementalfem.JPG |
| 04:55.39 | Zeal | oh here we go, last citation |
| 04:55.46 | Bagginsww | anycase, revenants have a connection to undead too. most can raise the dead too. They are pretty much conglomerates of earth elementals and other elemtnal tyhpes too |
| 04:55.49 | Zeal | they're undead |
| 04:56.26 | Bagginsww | basically its what happens when an elemental merges with graveyard material |
| 04:56.31 | Zeal | "control. Bonded" that needs to be fixed to "control bonded" |
| 04:56.42 | Zeal | yeah, explains their form now, np. |
| 04:56.44 | Bagginsww | hmm where? |
| 04:56.56 | Zeal | last sentence, first paragraph. |
| 04:57.21 | Bagginsww | btw Manual of Monsters is one of the specific books Metzen wrote for personally LOL |
| 04:58.03 | Zeal | you do know my opinion of Metzen isn't that great right? :p |
| 04:58.21 | Bagginsww | LOL |
| 04:58.45 | Bagginsww | just letting you know you don't have to like it but eh speculation against what is said is pointless |
| 04:59.01 | Bagginsww | such is speculation that liches are a class LOL |
| 04:59.07 | Zeal | "Many live on the Elemental Plane." from what i'm getting from the article, that needs clarification. The elemental spirits live on the Elemental Plane, Revenants are only on Azeroth, as thats when and where they take that form after merging with undead. |
| 04:59.20 | Bagginsww | checking the original manual |
| 04:59.35 | Bagginsww | revenants are in elemental pane too |
| 04:59.40 | Bagginsww | Shadows and light |
| 05:00.00 | Zeal | i've got that next to me, got a page? |
| 05:00.16 | Bagginsww | look up the page that lists the elemental hiearchy |
| 05:00.34 | *** join/#wowwiki FtH|Daemona (n=me@c196167.adsl.hansenet.de) |
| 05:01.14 | Bagginsww | Revenants are hateful undead creatures who outside the |
| 05:01.14 | Bagginsww | domain of Ner’zhul’s control. Bonded to base elemental spirits, |
| 05:01.14 | Bagginsww | these phantom creatures live only to rage and use their powers |
| 05:01.14 | Bagginsww | for destruction. |
| 05:01.16 | Bagginsww | that's the original quote |
| 05:01.22 | Bagginsww | control and bonded are seperate sentences |
| 05:01.24 | Zeal | i know |
| 05:01.39 | Zeal | yeah, the editor fails at english |
| 05:01.56 | Bagginsww | different dialects |
| 05:01.59 | Zeal | needs to be changed "who are outside" to end the sentence there. |
| 05:02.24 | Bagginsww | ya looks typographical to me |
| 05:02.35 | Bagginsww | one of those things where your mind will fill in the missing word |
| 05:02.48 | Zeal | lol |
| 05:02.59 | Bagginsww | its actually the most common mistake in editing |
| 05:03.03 | Zeal | well anyways, er.. i onyl see elemental plane and elemental lords |
| 05:03.11 | Bagginsww | look for the table :p |
| 05:03.34 | Zeal | might be an idea yeah >_>p |
| 05:03.36 | Bagginsww | a reference on page 140 to an adventure hook is one |
| 05:04.05 | Bagginsww | 141 has a table "Elemenatal Hiearchy" |
| 05:04.29 | Bagginsww | the whole page talks about hiearchy though |
| 05:04.31 | Zeal | split halves |
| 05:04.34 | Zeal | hm.. |
| 05:04.41 | Bagginsww | "Denizens" |
| 05:06.33 | Zeal | The more i learn, the more i hate. _ |
| 05:06.45 | Zeal | stupid bloody backwards argh.. |
| 05:06.48 | Bagginsww | if you hate warcraft stay away from it LOL |
| 05:07.00 | Bagginsww | warcraft has never been 100% consistent |
| 05:07.01 | Zeal | so much good in it thought. |
| 05:07.02 | Bagginsww | about any details |
| 05:07.06 | Zeal | *though |
| 05:07.16 | Bagginsww | you can go from warcraft 1 to 2 and find flaws |
| 05:07.23 | Bagginsww | and between 2 and 3 |
| 05:07.40 | Bagginsww | between 3 and 1 its many flaws |
| 05:08.00 | Bagginsww | of course alot of stupid inconsistencyes between 3 and WoW |
| 05:08.19 | Bagginsww | which means that between WoW and 1 is a huge divide |
| 05:08.46 | Bagginsww | I think one of the biggest stupid changes was whole black temple/black citadel debacle |
| 05:08.49 | Zeal | So.. that brings up a question. Can a revenant be created in the Elemental Plane, or do they have to come to Azeroth and then return, and on their return would they be the same (adventure hook, sounds like the revenant who is split in two for w/e reason would return to normal and is certainly not a low level elemental) |
| 05:09.04 | Bagginsww | well there are those that die in the elemental plane |
| 05:09.15 | Zeal | but no undead |
| 05:09.19 | Bagginsww | but I'd think most were probably created before they were banished to the elemental plane |
| 05:09.33 | Bagginsww | when the old gods ruled azeroth |
| 05:09.35 | Zeal | i mean, nothing that actually "dies" and leaves a corpse to bond to. |
| 05:09.43 | Bagginsww | well its not just corpses |
| 05:09.53 | Zeal | hm, that's true yeah, says they were used by the old gods |
| 05:10.02 | Bagginsww | they can pretty much take any soil froma graveyard |
| 05:10.05 | Bagginsww | and bond to it |
| 05:10.15 | Zeal | soil? |
| 05:10.15 | Bagginsww | they can even raise soil into undead |
| 05:10.31 | Zeal | there's no humanoid form to bond with in "soil" |
| 05:10.31 | Bagginsww | ya somethinga bout soil connected to the dead |
| 05:10.47 | Bagginsww | most soil is created from decomposed matter anyways |
| 05:10.53 | Zeal | i know |
| 05:10.55 | Bagginsww | but graveyard material is the strongest |
| 05:11.23 | Bagginsww | specifically read the article for death revenant |
| 05:11.31 | Bagginsww | its the one with the deepest ties to graveyard |
| 05:12.15 | Zeal | well the statement about them being "minor" is contradictory then it seems |
| 05:12.15 | Bagginsww | Death revenants can create death revenant spawn from slain corpses and the elements from the ground beneath it. |
| 05:12.23 | Zeal | so theres one flaw even between the RPGs : / |
| 05:13.03 | Bagginsww | well actually they are second tier sentient elementals |
| 05:13.17 | Bagginsww | they aren't at the top of the heap either |
| 05:13.32 | Bagginsww | note that some are even pretty low |
| 05:13.35 | Zeal | one in that adventure hook is on par with an elemental lord ;) |
| 05:13.47 | Zeal | that's a huuge leap |
| 05:13.50 | Bagginsww | because he merged with something |
| 05:13.55 | Zeal | oh? |
| 05:13.58 | Bagginsww | but read the hiearchy |
| 05:14.10 | Bagginsww | also there are always exceptions to the rules |
| 05:14.35 | Zeal | he hasn't merged |
| 05:14.38 | Bagginsww | on the hierachy you see that air and water reveants are pretty low |
| 05:14.41 | Zeal | just reuniting his halves |
| 05:14.46 | Bagginsww | whatever that means LOL |
| 05:15.03 | Bagginsww | you don't generally hear of split half revenants |
| 05:15.15 | Zeal | Frost != Ice? :S |
| 05:15.23 | Bagginsww | but ya most air elmentals are pretty low |
| 05:15.32 | Zeal | yeah, but it means his original form is very very powerful. |
| 05:16.04 | Bagginsww | frost and ice are separate ya |
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| 05:16.11 | Zeal | Says he's an elder, so seems minor is just the majority, they have their own inner hieracry rivalling that of elementals. |
| 05:16.16 | Bagginsww | yes he is obviously an exception to the rule |
| 05:16.30 | Bagginsww | like General Drakkisath is an exception to most dragonspawn |
| 05:16.31 | Zeal | yeah i'm confused, what's the difference.. two names for the same thing. |
| 05:16.48 | Bagginsww | frost is air and water I think. Ice is just water |
| 05:17.02 | Zeal | sigh |
| 05:17.09 | Bagginsww | oh ice is cold air and water |
| 05:17.19 | Bagginsww | oen is more solid than the other |
| 05:17.20 | Bagginsww | lol |
| 05:17.39 | Bagginsww | btw they were both units in WArcraft III lol |
| 05:17.44 | Bagginsww | well creeps |
| 05:17.51 | Bagginsww | they had slightly different ability lists |
| 05:18.05 | Zeal | frost is cold air + water, ice is cold air + larger quantities of water... |
| 05:18.54 | Bagginsww | in warcraft 3 a forst revenant could cast blizzard |
| 05:18.57 | Bagginsww | and it was a 4th level mob |
| 05:19.08 | Bagginsww | ice reveant was an 8th level mob |
| 05:19.21 | Bagginsww | that cast frost nova and had a vampirac aura |
| 05:19.45 | Bagginsww | and frost had chaos attack rather than normal |
| 05:19.52 | Bagginsww | erm ice had chaos sorry |
| 05:20.13 | Zeal | example of lore creating gameplay creating new lore |
| 05:20.13 | Bagginsww | believe me never try to make sense out of fantasy... |
| 05:20.26 | Bagginsww | well actually warcraft 3 came out before MoM |
| 05:20.41 | Zeal | i know, i'm refering to wc3 specifically :P |
| 05:20.46 | Bagginsww | lol |
| 05:20.55 | Bagginsww | ya as for any mythology before that I'm unclear |
| 05:21.03 | Bagginsww | but I'd suspect its got DnD routes at least |
| 05:21.40 | Zeal | anyways, i loate chaos. more something turns to that, the mroe i begin to hate it ;) |
| 05:21.48 | Zeal | *loathe |
| 05:21.59 | Bagginsww | chaos orcs? LOL |
| 05:22.13 | Zeal | haha |
| 05:22.33 | Bagginsww | I don't really know what chaos attacks in warctraft 3 mechanics are |
| 05:22.43 | Bagginsww | I think it got converted into the concept ofchaos energy int eh rpg though. |
| 05:22.49 | Bagginsww | although its not the same |
| 05:22.50 | Bagginsww | really |
| 05:22.55 | Bagginsww | so their may be no connection |
| 05:23.14 | Bagginsww | chaos energy is completley mechanical/technical but emulates arcane |
| 05:23.15 | Zeal | chaos er.. it ignored armour classes iirc. |
| 05:23.18 | Zeal | about it. |
| 05:23.21 | Bagginsww | ahh |
| 05:23.46 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Chaos_energy |
| 05:24.03 | Bagginsww | I doubt there is any connection |
| 05:24.43 | Zeal | ... |
| 05:25.17 | Bagginsww | btw the the chaos energy is funny, it leads to alot of amusing gnome and goblin inventions |
| 05:25.45 | Bagginsww | the background stories for certaind devices in the book are funny |
| 05:26.17 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Beer_Goggles not a chaos device but funny none the less. |
| 05:26.22 | Zeal | why complicate things further?!?! "Chaos energy is arcance energy, but instead of being channeled and wielded by a living entity, it is generated through mechnical means" that would have been much simpler.. |
| 05:27.06 | Bagginsww | but its not arcane energy :) |
| 05:27.55 | Zeal | lol, nice article. |
| 05:28.09 | Zeal | i know they've not made it so, but they should have. |
| 05:28.14 | Bagginsww | why? |
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| 05:28.15 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o sannse] by ChanServ |
| 05:28.21 | Bagginsww | how often are energy types in the real world the same thing? |
| 05:28.23 | Zeal | why throw yet more issues into the mix? |
| 05:28.35 | *** mode/#wowwiki [-o sannse] by sannse |
| 05:29.14 | Zeal | erm.. kidding right? pretty much all of them come from similar core energies, just many forms of them and ways of producing them. which is exaclt what i was suggest they should have done. |
| 05:29.26 | Bagginsww | light energy is not the same thing as electrical energy. Alhtough you can convert one into the other or vice versa and have similar properties. |
| 05:29.27 | Zeal | *suggesting. |
| 05:30.01 | Bagginsww | but electrical energy is not light energy |
| 05:30.13 | Zeal | light is from combustion, a chemical process. one of the core enery types |
| 05:30.32 | Zeal | the other is electricity/magnitism. |
| 05:31.03 | Zeal | questional is atomic would fall into the first, but either way, most spawn from these. |
| 05:31.05 | Zeal | *if |
| 05:31.26 | Bagginsww | actually its electromagnetic radiation so it has some similarities to eletrical energy |
| 05:31.33 | Bagginsww | *light is electromagnetic |
| 05:31.55 | *** part/#wowwiki sannse (n=me@wikimedia/pdpc.active.sannse) |
| 05:32.04 | Zeal | no? it's from combustion. |
| 05:32.20 | Bagginsww | not all electrical energy is electro mechanical |
| 05:32.27 | Bagginsww | nah light can be produced by different means |
| 05:32.34 | Bagginsww | combustion is one form |
| 05:33.02 | Zeal | but irregardless, there's also the fact there is no need for thme to further complicate matters.. tha'ts why warcraft lore is so fucked up, as they run away with ideas in new directions all the time. they end up not fleshed out, and when they are, they cause issues and retcons. |
| 05:33.37 | Bagginsww | actually to be fair chaos energy is such an obscure thing its not likely to contradict or be contradicted. |
| 05:33.55 | Bagginsww | a bigger issue is bearded female dwarves, but even that's pretty obscure ;) |
| 05:34.08 | Bagginsww | day of the dragon had it fairly common |
| 05:34.17 | Zeal | oh i get you, sorry. looking at what you said in the wrong way (electrical converting to light, and light) ;x |
| 05:34.17 | Bagginsww | infact warcraft adventures was to have bearded dwarves |
| 05:34.47 | Zeal | exactly why it won't get fleshed out much, which is lame for fans. |
| 05:34.54 | Zeal | i saw you say earlier :p |
| 05:34.59 | Bagginsww | well most fans won't even have access to it lol |
| 05:35.12 | Zeal | i'm sure wow would have too if they thought the appeals would be there XD |
| 05:35.15 | Bagginsww | with the rpg dieing anyway s;) |
| 05:35.19 | Bagginsww | LOL |
| 05:35.21 | Zeal | *appeal |
| 05:35.28 | Bagginsww | ya well that's where it changed |
| 05:35.35 | Bagginsww | the bearded dwarvesa became less common |
| 05:35.40 | Bagginsww | when they were implied to be very common |
| 05:35.46 | Bagginsww | and some sources say not at all LOL |
| 05:36.02 | Bagginsww | but you can find a reference to a bearded dwarve in WoW if you are looking carefully |
| 05:36.12 | Zeal | well i think most people will agrre, the lore that comes from the rpg usually just makes you groan. |
| 05:36.20 | Bagginsww | Gubber Blumps sister is said to ahve a beard |
| 05:36.30 | Bagginsww | bearded dwarves isnt' even from the rpg |
| 05:36.43 | Bagginsww | there is only one reference to bearded dwarves in the rpg |
| 05:36.43 | Zeal | i know it's not. |
| 05:37.01 | Bagginsww | and its to say its rare or non existant |
| 05:37.03 | Zeal | just pointing to chaos convo still :P |
| 05:37.25 | Bagginsww | midn you their ar ethings in WoW quests you only hear of once |
| 05:37.28 | Bagginsww | and never again |
| 05:37.31 | Zeal | well, i'm glad they changed it really |
| 05:37.32 | Bagginsww | only the rpg expanded on them |
| 05:37.42 | Zeal | i mean, why follow tolken? |
| 05:37.44 | Zeal | :p |
| 05:38.08 | Zeal | got any examples in mind? |
| 05:38.22 | Zeal | comic coming soon ^_^ |
| 05:38.28 | Bagginsww | yes I preordered |
| 05:38.31 | Zeal | same |
| 05:38.51 | Zeal | was like 9 for 12 or w/e |
| 05:38.51 | Bagginsww | well for one thign random items you find in the game |
| 05:39.03 | Bagginsww | have background stories in the rpg |
| 05:39.16 | Bagginsww | not all mind you but quite a few |
| 05:39.25 | *** join/#wowwiki FtH|Daemona (n=me@c214167.adsl.hansenet.de) |
| 05:39.29 | Zeal | aye |
| 05:39.33 | Bagginsww | rpg has mentiond alot of things before they even showed up in wow or the game was released |
| 05:39.39 | Zeal | but how well they handle these things is questionable. |
| 05:40.12 | Bagginsww | well actually I tihnk alot of the items in the rpg were released before they showed up in WoW |
| 05:40.24 | Bagginsww | so wow actually referenced the rpg |
| 05:40.43 | Bagginsww | Bael Modan has very little lore in the game but is greatly expanded on in the RPG, and first appeared in therpg |
| 05:41.44 | Zeal | seriously, if they put the rpg guys to working on writing an online encylopedia after this, with alot of overseering from blizz, i think it would help blizz to see where they're going, what needs to be fixed, where issues are etc. their current internal process (here's loads of notes, rest is in metzen's head so ask him) which never brings these things to light and it's all done on a whim and what sounds like it would sell. |
| 05:41.46 | Bagginsww | of course you have monster guide or MoM taking something monsters with little lore and expanding on them. |
| 05:42.10 | Bagginsww | its not just metzen though |
| 05:42.14 | Bagginsww | its his whole staff ;) |
| 05:42.38 | Zeal | who only know what he tells them and already exists |
| 05:42.53 | Bagginsww | btw alot of times the rpg book writers are also the WoW quest writers :p |
| 05:42.57 | Bagginsww | or game designers |
| 05:43.01 | Zeal | i'm sure they have shit loads of input nad ideas that make it, but it's him that makes warcraft what it is imo. |
| 05:43.08 | Bagginsww | so it goes much deeper than metzen |
| 05:43.13 | Bagginsww | its a blizzard issue |
| 05:43.14 | Zeal | never heard of this :s |
| 05:43.30 | Zeal | it's his job, it's his issue. they have their own jobs within it. |
| 05:43.32 | Bagginsww | you just have to compare the names int eh game credits :) |
| 05:43.42 | Zeal | *jobs to do. |
| 05:43.51 | Bagginsww | samwise is even beenon the writing staff occasionally |
| 05:44.06 | Zeal | well they're close. |
| 05:44.12 | Zeal | so doesn't surpise me. |
| 05:44.17 | Zeal | *suprise |
| 05:44.36 | Bagginsww | also the guy who wrote last guardian |
| 05:44.39 | Bagginsww | also wrote for the rpg |
| 05:44.43 | Zeal | and artists usually do have alot of input in those things, as they have to make the world come to life. |
| 05:44.45 | Bagginsww | although eh's not blizzard staff |
| 05:45.01 | Zeal | for the rpg huh? which? he was my fav :p |
| 05:45.15 | Bagginsww | the first book |
| 05:45.20 | Zeal | bah! |
| 05:45.28 | Zeal | one i don't have, lol. |
| 05:45.40 | Bagginsww | which imo has very good writing, even if its pre-WoW even pretyt much pre-TFT |
| 05:45.48 | Bagginsww | and its only kalimdor centric |
| 05:45.52 | Zeal | cool |
| 05:46.03 | Zeal | well i would love him to write more novels |
| 05:46.17 | Zeal | but.. they've gone with others for the big releases now : / |
| 05:46.24 | Bagginsww | Bob Fitch |
| 05:46.33 | Zeal | got christie golden working on another trilogy as well now. |
| 05:46.38 | Bagginsww | is one of the blizzard employees who has consistentlyb een on the writing/editorial staff |
| 05:46.58 | Bagginsww | personally not a big fan of her, she takes the biggest leaps |
| 05:47.02 | Bagginsww | ignores alot of material |
| 05:47.07 | Zeal | aye |
| 05:47.13 | Zeal | but i prefer her to knaak |
| 05:47.18 | Zeal | don't like his stuff.. |
| 05:47.38 | Bagginsww | if its any consolation metzen was asked if the books were canon at gencon |
| 05:47.57 | Bagginsww | and he said well they are lore, but he doesn't necessarily have to follow them but he usually tries to |
| 05:48.03 | Bagginsww | by books I mean the novels |
| 05:48.21 | Bagginsww | actually I like Knaak in that he sometimes makes really obscure references |
| 05:48.28 | Bagginsww | but his books are harder tor ead unfournately |
| 05:48.32 | Bagginsww | a bit slowr paced |
| 05:48.35 | Zeal | aye : . |
| 05:48.37 | Zeal | (Adys): / |
| 05:48.40 | Zeal | wtf.. |
| 05:48.46 | Zeal | hate it when it does that, sorry. |
| 05:48.50 | Adys | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:50.02 | Bagginsww | btw they editors blaimed bob fitch about the so-called errors that cropped into WoWRPG |
| 05:50.15 | Bagginsww | and he was one of the Blizzard staff members |
| 05:50.19 | Bagginsww | even metzen blaimed him |
| 05:50.30 | Bagginsww | in a joking manner but it was there |
| 05:50.37 | Zeal | Hm, how well would it go down if wrote Chirs Metzen lied to everyone and provided proof? ;) |
| 05:50.45 | Zeal | on his article that is, lol. |
| 05:50.48 | Bagginsww | LOL |
| 05:51.03 | Bagginsww | You know I'd be up for it ;) |
| 05:51.11 | Bagginsww | cited evidence that's true is always valid |
| 05:51.16 | Zeal | aye |
| 05:51.28 | Zeal | it's a connect the dots game of 3 facts iirc. |
| 05:51.29 | Bagginsww | although I wouldnt' use "lie" exactly, ;) |
| 05:51.36 | Bagginsww | bend the truth sure |
| 05:52.03 | Zeal | with only 2 facts, he could have simply forgotten, with all 3, he lied. |
| 05:52.25 | Bagginsww | lol |
| 05:52.33 | Bagginsww | I'd start out with the talk page |
| 05:52.41 | Bagginsww | get people prepared for it |
| 05:53.13 | Bagginsww | test reactions |
| 05:53.27 | Bagginsww | find out if there is any flaws in your logic you might have missed etc. |
| 05:53.35 | Zeal | basically it has a quote from blizzcon 01, his apology and a quote before blizzcon. i forget the detail of it all basically, but ofc it revolves around him telling us he forgot about the Dranei's past. |
| 05:53.39 | Bagginsww | and to avoid any potential edit war |
| 05:53.41 | Zeal | *eredar's |
| 05:54.13 | Bagginsww | well you definitely need to find the quotes |
| 05:54.18 | Zeal | i know |
| 05:54.26 | Zeal | i would if i cba |
| 05:54.37 | Zeal | but i'm not out to flame the guy |
| 05:54.47 | Zeal | he just lost my respect even more. |
| 05:55.14 | Bagginsww | btw to be honest I don't put any oen on pedestals to begin with. |
| 05:55.33 | Bagginsww | I assume everyone is human, and probably going ot make mistakes, and not be entirely honest at times |
| 05:55.44 | Bagginsww | realistic viewpoint :p |
| 05:56.13 | Bagginsww | let me find you somethign I put up on a talk page |
| 05:56.38 | Zeal | i know, but i expect someone in his position and known to produce wonderful ideas, would have a good deal of respect for his fans and his work. |
| 05:56.54 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Talk:Retcon#Mistakes_with_Grom_Hellscream.27s.2C_Mannoroth.27s.2C_and_Magtheridon.27s_Deaths |
| 05:57.17 | Bagginsww | Let's face it metzen started out as an artist, he was given the job later :p |
| 05:57.25 | Zeal | he makes a mistake, admit it. don't lie about it. but i do question if he really did "make a mistake" now. |
| 05:57.32 | Zeal | lol |
| 05:57.46 | Bagginsww | he's shared it at times too |
| 05:58.00 | Bagginsww | I hardly think one person can keep all ideas in his head at the same time |
| 05:58.12 | Bagginsww | also note were star wars movies contradict htemselves LOL |
| 05:58.27 | Bagginsww | you can only cover it up so much with the "Certain point of view" idea |
| 05:58.43 | Bagginsww | you ever watch evil dead movies? |
| 05:58.49 | Bagginsww | they get progressivly worse too |
| 05:59.05 | Bagginsww | but ya, draenei issue, imo its old hat |
| 05:59.16 | Bagginsww | every warcraft game has contradiced stuff rom the previous games before it |
| 05:59.22 | Zeal | "fanatical fans" lol? fanatical fantaics :P |
| 05:59.29 | Bagginsww | ;) |
| 05:59.55 | Zeal | i know, thats why i think they should have worked on laying this stuff out for them be better keep track of etc. |
| 05:59.56 | Bagginsww | but ya I found it a bit odd how the stuff they were occused of, doesn't match up with what was really said |
| 06:00.15 | Bagginsww | btw eredar thing is only partially a contradictio :) |
| 06:00.33 | *** join/#wowwiki Daemona (n=me@c219178.adsl.hansenet.de) |
| 06:00.35 | Bagginsww | I went back to the rpg, and noticed that the concept that eredar and demons and general were uncorrupted at one point |
| 06:00.41 | Bagginsww | *in general |
| 06:00.48 | Bagginsww | and this was long before TBC |
| 06:00.55 | Bagginsww | Manual of Monsters even |
| 06:01.07 | Bagginsww | read the Sargeras article in S&L very closely |
| 06:01.09 | Zeal | i'm sure everyone gets the idea of a warcraft bible existing at blizz, carried by metzen at all times, but if anything, it's probably a notebook or folder of notes, lol. |
| 06:01.17 | Bagginsww | LOL ya |
| 06:01.24 | Bagginsww | and I think he's forced to change ideas at itmes |
| 06:01.30 | Zeal | oh, sure. |
| 06:01.48 | Bagginsww | I think there was an interview where he said he wanted to have only male druids in WoW |
| 06:01.52 | Zeal | but we all know there's a right and a wrong way to go about changing things. |
| 06:01.59 | Bagginsww | but he was told to make it equal |
| 06:02.02 | Zeal | yeah |
| 06:02.11 | Bagginsww | and it was ongly going to be alliance I think |
| 06:02.13 | Zeal | remember that too. |
| 06:02.35 | Bagginsww | there is someone higher up we don't know the name of |
| 06:02.43 | Bagginsww | and they are probalby happy about that LOL |
| 06:03.26 | Bagginsww | on a related note Metzen discussed at gencon how he views orcs as benevolent but he says everyone else at blizzard thinks they are evil ganking bastards adn wants to write them that way |
| 06:03.33 | Bagginsww | the comic is supposed to go into this btw |
| 06:03.42 | Bagginsww | show their dark side |
| 06:03.47 | Bagginsww | that they still apparently have |
| 06:03.54 | Bagginsww | only thrall has been keeping them in check |
| 06:04.24 | Zeal | well doesn't even have to be higher up, other areas like the game designers, could force matters into a certain direction, nut it's likely the come to the big boss point out the conflict, and he's gunna pick what can work best and sell best ofc. |
| 06:04.31 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Talk:Thrall#Interesting_comments_by_Metzen |
| 06:04.43 | Bagginsww | ya |
| 06:04.58 | Zeal | yeah, heard it before. |
| 06:05.17 | Zeal | i'm sure it's not a clear cut as that though |
| 06:05.28 | Bagginsww | but ya back to the WoWRPG "errors" its funny how one isn't really an error, but people misinterpreting what it said, but convincing everyone in charge that the error existed in the way the fan complained, and forced an apology out of them. |
| 06:05.44 | Zeal | gunna be plenty who understand the nature of the orcs now, but some probably do prefer the evil orcs. |
| 06:06.02 | Zeal | yeah, you showed me before |
| 06:06.06 | Zeal | it is silly |
| 06:06.12 | Bagginsww | The other was an error but not quite the one that people complained it was, and forced them into thinking it was a different kind of error, so they apologized for the wrong error and tried to epxlain it away LOL |
| 06:06.23 | Zeal | aye, lol. |
| 06:07.02 | Bagginsww | had I been there at the time with the book, I would have royally gotten onto the person complaining |
| 06:07.14 | Bagginsww | I think it was kawawakas if you remember him |
| 06:07.40 | Zeal | oh yeah, lol. |
| 06:07.42 | Bagginsww | but ya I would have told the authors that they were apologizing for the wrong thigns in the wrong way LOL |
| 06:08.13 | Zeal | i was talking to Kirkburn before i came back about SoL after i saw someone tried to stir things up again. |
| 06:08.14 | Bagginsww | btw i've caught Kawawakas misinterpreting thigns in other books as well, and had to explain to him where he was wrong :p |
| 06:08.28 | Bagginsww | what about this time? |
| 06:09.02 | Zeal | oh, someone wanted to write an article for his site about the hatred between ww and sol |
| 06:09.23 | Bagginsww | of course you remember kawakwas and the infamous appendix 3, lol. Yet we ultimately proved his claims were off the mark |
| 06:09.37 | Zeal | he got banned in the end anyways, cos turned out he was a sockpuppet for someone who had been banned before. |
| 06:09.43 | Zeal | yuup |
| 06:09.44 | Bagginsww | oh wow |
| 06:09.56 | Bagginsww | so he shouldn't be on the bookkeeper staff at ww right? |
| 06:10.07 | Bagginsww | cause I see he is still listed :p |
| 06:10.17 | Zeal | well on sol, they are still adamant that luke johnson knows all and we should accept his word as fact.. |
| 06:10.39 | Zeal | who? :o |
| 06:10.39 | Bagginsww | LOL even Luke Johsnon admitted he didnt' know for sure, and it was just his opinion |
| 06:10.45 | Zeal | yuup |
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| 06:11.15 | Bagginsww | but ya I think there were two kinds of writers for MOM those that considered the whole book a source of lore, and a few that didn't :p |
| 06:11.34 | Bagginsww | we'd need Metzen to know for sure LOL |
| 06:11.39 | Zeal | oh, lol forgot he was on the staff. |
| 06:11.40 | Bagginsww | but he isn't talking |
| 06:11.51 | Bagginsww | Metzen was one of the main writers actually |
| 06:12.04 | Bagginsww | It would be amusing if he wrote the Salamander article |
| 06:12.10 | Bagginsww | the one that metnions mites for example |
| 06:12.13 | Zeal | well metzen would have to be careful if he said anything, cos he could open up a can of worms. |
| 06:12.28 | Bagginsww | you can tell he was very enthused about the book read his opening letter |
| 06:12.33 | Bagginsww | [[Warcraft RPG]] |
| 06:12.34 | [NewsBot] | Bagginsww meant: http://www.wowwiki.com/Warcraft_RPG |
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| 06:13.06 | Bagginsww | well one thing Metzen is very careful not to answer too much about the RPG because he's bombarded every single convention "Is it canon" |
| 06:13.07 | Bagginsww | by the same person |
| 06:13.12 | Bagginsww | he remembers that person |
| 06:13.14 | Bagginsww | every time |
| 06:13.22 | Bagginsww | maybe not every single convention but quite a few |
| 06:13.28 | Bagginsww | its funny at gencon he makes fun of the guy |
| 06:13.36 | Bagginsww | he's like you ask me the same question every time |
| 06:13.48 | Bagginsww | and the guy is like well I just want to make sure you change your midn |
| 06:13.56 | Bagginsww | *if you |
| 06:14.09 | Bagginsww | anyways the quesiton is basically ARe the novels and the rpg books canon" |
| 06:14.27 | Bagginsww | and like I said metzen only returned with a discussion about ythe novels |
| 06:14.35 | Bagginsww | before he had to switch to another quesiton |
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| 06:14.50 | Bagginsww | but ya I don't think he likes those quesitons |
| 06:15.00 | Bagginsww | I'd be annoyed if I was asked the sam ething over and over |
| 06:15.15 | Bagginsww | despite the fact that I had been telling people all along in variuos palces that yes the rpg explains thigns :p |
| 06:15.19 | Bagginsww | and is part of the lore |
| 06:16.16 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Chris_Metzen |
| 06:16.56 | Bagginsww | but ya he was co-author on two of the rpg books and design assistance and additioanl material for all of them |
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| 06:19.00 | Zeal | Well from what i can tell, if people really wanna know is canon there is a simple answer. Whatever Metzen is currently thinking of doing to the lore. ;) |
| 06:19.12 | Bagginsww | LOL |
| 06:19.22 | Bagginsww | well I think of it as bibical canon |
| 06:19.30 | Bagginsww | its all part of the sameb ook |
| 06:19.38 | Bagginsww | but not everyone agrees with what happened ;p |
| 06:19.39 | Zeal | anything else is just resource material for him it seems :P |
| 06:19.48 | Zeal | yeah |
| 06:19.52 | Bagginsww | you can find alot of contradictions in the bible |
| 06:19.55 | Bagginsww | yet its all canon |
| 06:19.58 | Zeal | no doubt |
| 06:20.13 | Bagginsww | one example |
| 06:20.16 | Bagginsww | the demoniacs |
| 06:20.29 | Bagginsww | one gospel sasy there was 1 demoniac |
| 06:20.33 | Bagginsww | *says |
| 06:20.34 | Zeal | but wouldn't it be nice to have to have universe that doesn;t suffer from that issues? :P |
| 06:20.36 | Bagginsww | another says there was 2 |
| 06:20.48 | Bagginsww | our universe doesn't even agree on what happened in real life ;) |
| 06:20.59 | Zeal | meant fansty/game universe :P |
| 06:21.14 | Bagginsww | Metzen was the and is probably the most consisent ever |
| 06:21.19 | Bagginsww | erm sorry |
| 06:21.22 | Bagginsww | Tolki;en |
| 06:21.23 | Bagginsww | I mean |
| 06:21.24 | Bagginsww | not metzen |
| 06:21.24 | Zeal | here's an idea, open source universe development :P |
| 06:21.31 | Bagginsww | and you'd still have problems |
| 06:21.42 | Bagginsww | They have tried that before |
| 06:21.45 | Bagginsww | with rpg game |
| 06:21.53 | Zeal | oh? |
| 06:21.56 | Bagginsww | open source rpg universe paper and pencile |
| 06:22.19 | Zeal | p&p, pfft. |
| 06:22.23 | Bagginsww | basicaly once players got done with using their charcters they became characters to used as npcs in later campaigns |
| 06:22.39 | Sky2042 | p&p has some lore which the main games don't have, unfortunately ;( |
| 06:22.41 | Bagginsww | it wasn an official dnd campaign I think |
| 06:22.43 | Zeal | nah, wasn't really thinking quite like that. |
| 06:22.50 | Bagginsww | so ya sourcebooks for it |
| 06:22.58 | Bagginsww | were using people's player characters |
| 06:23.26 | Bagginsww | basically apparently you had to pay and go through a huge sign up process to get into it |
| 06:23.35 | Bagginsww | if I'm remembering the details right |
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| 06:23.48 | Bagginsww | but ya I hardly believe it was consistent ;) |
| 06:24.18 | Zeal | lol |
| 06:24.18 | Bagginsww | then there was doctor who novels |
| 06:24.21 | Bagginsww | they opened it up to fans to write |
| 06:24.33 | Bagginsww | I doubt it was consistent ;) |
| 06:24.39 | Zeal | hehe |
| 06:24.40 | Bagginsww | not that even the shows are entirely :) |
| 06:24.56 | Sky2042 | oh great... Bagginsww has a real sparring partner now... |
| 06:25.00 | Sky2042 | >.> |
| 06:25.02 | Sky2042 | <.< |
| 06:25.05 | Bagginsww | lol |
| 06:25.06 | Zeal | lol Sky2042 |
| 06:25.21 | Sky2042 | seeing as ragestorm's a bum and still won't come on irc |
| 06:25.41 | Bagginsww | usually the more hands you have stirring the pot the worse it gets |
| 06:26.15 | Bagginsww | star wars actually was pretty consistent until Lucas went back and made the prequels and changed from his original plans |
| 06:26.41 | Bagginsww | unraveling so much that Lucasbooks had done to keep consistency |
| 06:26.59 | Bagginsww | plus you had so many fans that wanted stuff thrown out just simply because they didnt' like the books |
| 06:27.02 | Sky2042 | we're talking how the comics and such mesh with the movies? |
| 06:27.10 | Bagginsww | ya |
| 06:27.30 | Bagginsww | mind you not even the movies mesh well with each othe r:p |
| 06:27.32 | Sky2042 | he's always had it in mind to make the prequels, and obviously has always had which were going to be about what |
| 06:27.49 | Bagginsww | well actually his plans for the prequels changed a bit over time |
| 06:27.57 | Bagginsww | just as he kept on rewriting the old movies |
| 06:28.16 | Bagginsww | watch first edition of his old movies with the dvd editions and there are alot of differences |
| 06:28.20 | Bagginsww | he retconed himself |
| 06:28.25 | Bagginsww | even in interviews |
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| 06:28.44 | Bagginsww | now Tolkien was similar always rewriting himself too |
| 06:29.01 | Bagginsww | but he usually didnt' want to realease anythign to the public until he got it how he wanted it. |
| 06:29.21 | Bagginsww | and then created explanations for why things were different from a in-universe perspective LOL |
| 06:29.21 | Sky2042 | because he was a writer, not a moviemaker |
| 06:29.25 | Sky2042 | :P |
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| 06:29.45 | Bagginsww | like if someone wrote a letter to him asking why such and such didnt' seem to fit |
| 06:29.56 | Bagginsww | he'd send a letter back with some huge concocted explanation lol |
| 06:30.06 | Bagginsww | because he wanted perfection |
| 06:30.20 | Bagginsww | and had to stand by anything that he released to the public |
| 06:30.40 | Bagginsww | a good example is first edition of the Hobbit was a lie told by Bilbo |
| 06:30.46 | Bagginsww | ot hide the truth of the ring |
| 06:30.58 | Zeal | rofl |
| 06:31.02 | Zeal | me like |
| 06:31.17 | Zeal | gotta <3 dedication like that |
| 06:31.24 | Bagginsww | final edition was really what happened and was written after Bilbo had told the truth, and was edits by Frodo |
| 06:31.45 | Bagginsww | the explanation is pretty genious too |
| 06:31.54 | Bagginsww | it makes perfect sense |
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| 06:32.13 | Bagginsww | especialy considering the backstory that we are reading the redbooks, ;) |
| 06:32.28 | Bagginsww | the books written by the hobbits |
| 06:32.47 | Zeal | aye |
| 06:33.05 | Bagginsww | there was like 3 or four authors and editors ot the books |
| 06:33.10 | Bagginsww | bilbo was the first IIRC |
| 06:33.13 | Zeal | you saw how i explained away wc3->wota conflicts :p |
| 06:33.15 | Bagginsww | then frodo added his bit |
| 06:33.30 | Bagginsww | then samwise iirc |
| 06:33.39 | Bagginsww | added the bit about Frodo leaving |
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| 06:34.10 | Bagginsww | which conflict? |
| 06:35.44 | Bagginsww | but ya Zeal I went downt he path of trying to keep things consistent in a series LOL it made me old and bitter ;) |
| 06:35.56 | Bagginsww | and ultimately drove me away from a few series |
| 06:36.13 | Bagginsww | I'm not a huge fan of star wars now, do not like the way they have taken the universe |
| 06:36.32 | Bagginsww | not a big fan of the prequels or the edits to the original movies |
| 06:36.35 | Zeal | the timeline stuff |
| 06:36.49 | Zeal | tyrande not knowing orcs or w/e |
| 06:37.17 | Bagginsww | that's why I'm not so serious about warcraft, or care about what happens and expect them to reinent the wheel over and over again :p |
| 06:37.26 | Bagginsww | ahh |
| 06:37.47 | Bagginsww | what did you do exactly? |
| 06:38.01 | Zeal | anyways.. conflicts are frustrating, as they shouldn't be happening with good research and retcon should be more obvious. It's when i think something is jsut a bad idea it pissed me off and i stop carying. |
| 06:38.07 | Zeal | *caring |
| 06:38.24 | Bagginsww | read history of middle earth |
| 06:38.33 | Bagginsww | see how tolkien kept track of his stuff :p |
| 06:38.48 | Bagginsww | the guy was writing on napkins and on previoulsy used paper :p |
| 06:38.50 | Zeal | wc3 happened before wota, thus what we planed in wc3 was the original timeline, but wow is the new timeline, so it appears seemless to us and removes any conflicts. |
| 06:38.59 | Zeal | *played |
| 06:39.00 | Bagginsww | he'd erase stuff and then write over it 3 or four tims |
| 06:39.15 | Zeal | hehe |
| 06:39.16 | Bagginsww | that's a problem though zeal |
| 06:39.32 | Bagginsww | as there are stuff in WC3 timeline that had to have happened after WOTA |
| 06:39.41 | Zeal | i know, your new found conflicts within the wota timelines :P |
| 06:39.43 | Bagginsww | original timelne in WOTA had Hakkar during warcraft5 3 |
| 06:40.05 | Zeal | hm? |
| 06:40.12 | Bagginsww | the hound master |
| 06:40.17 | Bagginsww | he was never a part of warcraft III |
| 06:40.23 | Bagginsww | just like was said in the second timeline |
| 06:40.28 | Bagginsww | and later sources |
| 06:40.34 | Bagginsww | even Brann says that Hakkar didn't exist |
| 06:40.38 | Zeal | oh that, yeah. |
| 06:40.51 | Zeal | well knaak's creation, so i blame him. |
| 06:40.52 | Bagginsww | the most current history is a blending of both actually |
| 06:41.15 | Bagginsww | I think the "old timeline" in his book isn't even any timeline we knew of |
| 06:41.15 | Zeal | didn't say it removed all issues |
| 06:41.24 | Bagginsww | it is the altenrate timeline |
| 06:41.30 | Zeal | just the ones from the timeline change :P |
| 06:41.31 | Bagginsww | the new timeline is the true timeline |
| 06:41.47 | Zeal | well that brings more issues |
| 06:41.48 | Bagginsww | and it created the warcraft 3 events |
| 06:42.03 | Bagginsww | brann is awhare of both timelines too so it odd. |
| 06:42.07 | Bagginsww | he's fairly omniscient ;P |
| 06:42.09 | Zeal | rofl! |
| 06:42.15 | Zeal | oh sigh. |
| 06:42.45 | Bagginsww | anycase alot of the so called 'changes' never actually were changes in the lore to begin with LOL |
| 06:42.46 | Zeal | just when i was idolizing the guy :P |
| 06:42.53 | Bagginsww | they were stuff we never even heard of |
| 06:43.02 | Bagginsww | since we knew barely anything about that time period to begin with |
| 06:43.15 | Zeal | i know |
| 06:43.38 | Bagginsww | but ya basically somehow both histories have been coming down the ages and exist to historians |
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| 06:43.50 | Zeal | but this is more issues with what should have happened after the change, not in the change. |
| 06:43.57 | Bagginsww | and the historians argue about what really happened back then LOL |
| 06:44.26 | Zeal | well, are these in different sources or same sources. cos you could explain them away the same way :p |
| 06:44.40 | Bagginsww | of course in WoW you get books telling the old events |
| 06:45.06 | Bagginsww | and some stuff making reference to WoTA novels |
| 06:45.15 | Zeal | i honestly like the who idea of each source being merely a window into whatever timeline we're in at that point. |
| 06:45.29 | Zeal | yeah |
| 06:45.35 | Zeal | *whole |
| 06:45.45 | Bagginsww | its similar to how historians have different takes on history and what really happened |
| 06:45.50 | Bagginsww | in real life |
| 06:46.17 | Zeal | well that's merely because they don't know :p out of universe, we do :p |
| 06:46.28 | Bagginsww | that's the problem we don't know |
| 06:46.30 | Bagginsww | at all |
| 06:46.49 | [NewsBot] | GamePolitics: Film About Super Columbine Game Controversy Screened in U.K. - http://gamepolitics.com/2007/10/29/film-about-super-columbine-game-controversy-screened-in-uk/ |
| 06:46.52 | Bagginsww | metzen's APG/HPG references are a blending of both timelines :p |
| 06:47.19 | Bagginsww | that is he makes direct references to how things happened in Warcraft III manual |
| 06:47.31 | Bagginsww | that may have been slightly different in the novels |
| 06:47.47 | Bagginsww | yet he also makes references to things that were in the novels only |
| 06:48.01 | Zeal | well honestly, that's him doing a poor job imo. he's acting like a historian instead of a writer himself. |
| 06:48.29 | Thrae | "GamePolitics: Film About Super Columbine Game Controversy Screened in U.K." <-- I wonder if the controversy arising will be made into a game? |
| 06:48.31 | Bagginsww | i think the reality is that alot of those in-game books take precidence over the novels |
| 06:48.41 | Bagginsww | ingame books are direct rips of warcraft iii manual |
| 06:48.48 | Bagginsww | only slight changes |
| 06:48.52 | Zeal | basically looking at previous sources, saying oh, this happened, and this, and that. instead of just writting what version of events he wants to have happened. |
| 06:49.26 | Bagginsww | as a side note he merged Warcraft II lothar death versio with the version mentioned in other soruces |
| 06:49.36 | Bagginsww | by saying some believed he died honorably others believe he was ambushed |
| 06:49.45 | Zeal | lol |
| 06:50.31 | Zeal | well you can get away with merging non-first hand accounts of in-universe lore, but generally merging lore is a bad idea. retcon is better. |
| 06:51.01 | Bagginsww | retcon isn't better, retcon usually jsut means ignoring old material for the sake of writing new material |
| 06:51.06 | Bagginsww | which you said you hat e;) |
| 06:51.17 | Zeal | no, said it doesn't bother me. |
| 06:51.21 | Bagginsww | retcons usually come out of mistakes |
| 06:51.29 | Bagginsww | oops we made a mistake, let's go with it |
| 06:51.44 | Bagginsww | no one will care about the older material anyways :p |
| 06:51.45 | Zeal | just they shouldn't need to happen, if they do though, do it clear cut and well. |
| 06:52.04 | Bagginsww | metzen has said in interviews that all the books we read are in-universe books :p |
| 06:52.13 | Bagginsww | by different historians |
| 06:52.18 | Bagginsww | giving their different viewpoitns |
| 06:52.31 | Bagginsww | that's his way of getting out of where authors screw things up |
| 06:52.34 | Zeal | eg, i liek the eredar lore, but it shouldn't have been done. But seeing as it was, it could have been so much better. Because he didn't retcon properly, we're less with a mess for him to explain. |
| 06:52.48 | Bagginsww | well like I said Eredar lore isn't completey new |
| 06:53.05 | Bagginsww | the idea that all demons were orignlaly corrupted into demons exists |
| 06:53.08 | Zeal | i know, but it's a completely new direction. |
| 06:53.16 | Zeal | from what we had. |
| 06:53.16 | Bagginsww | at least as far back as Manual of Mosnters |
| 06:53.28 | Bagginsww | its even hinted on in Shadows and Light. |
| 06:53.32 | Zeal | i know |
| 06:53.35 | Bagginsww | by Sargeras of all people |
| 06:53.46 | Zeal | honestly, that should have been done. but he "forgot" |
| 06:54.19 | Zeal | wish i could remember that quote now, bastard lier.. |
| 06:54.21 | Zeal | lol |
| 06:54.47 | Bagginsww | manual of mosnters was released not long after Warcraft III |
| 06:55.09 | Bagginsww | around the time of TFT though |
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| 06:55.33 | Zeal | and this is where i pull out.. http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/judge_metzen.jpg |
| 06:55.43 | Bagginsww | so it makes me wonder if the idea of demons being created through corruption has existed for a long time before that |
| 06:55.52 | [NewsBot] | MMO Champion: WotLk, Illidan china first kill, comics - http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=2007.0 |
| 06:56.06 | Bagginsww | lol |
| 06:56.22 | Zeal | ah, i love that pic. |
| 06:56.26 | Zeal | ^_^ |
| 06:56.36 | Zeal | anyways, yeah. it makes sense. |
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| 06:57.18 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v Thrae] by ChanServ |
| 06:58.16 | Bagginsww | The |
| 06:58.17 | Bagginsww | pure-hearted, altruistic Titans, unable to conceive of evil or wickedness in any |
| 06:58.17 | Bagginsww | form, struggled to find a way to end the demons’ constant threat. |
| 06:58.23 | Bagginsww | that sounds like so much propaganda ;) |
| 06:59.21 | Zeal | aye |
| 06:59.41 | Zeal | well tbh, the idea that demons and evil races existed before sargeras makes perfect sense to |
| 06:59.59 | Zeal | it's hard to beleive of evil ever being some "new" |
| 07:00.13 | Bagginsww | so does sargeras implied view that the titans just viewed other natural races as demons ;) |
| 07:00.34 | Bagginsww | by viewing them as demons and declaring war on them they may have inadvertainly turned them into demons |
| 07:00.48 | Bagginsww | but ya "altruistic" |
| 07:00.51 | Zeal | oh, i saw your writing soem of that the other day. |
| 07:00.53 | Bagginsww | seems abit exaggerated |
| 07:01.01 | Zeal | i never got that implication tbh, don't agree. |
| 07:01.14 | Bagginsww | well the point is sargers is crazy he could be wrong |
| 07:01.24 | Bagginsww | but there might be some truth to it |
| 07:01.34 | Zeal | well it was what you wrote about sargeras's turning i didn't agree with. |
| 07:01.44 | Bagginsww | turning? |
| 07:02.06 | Bagginsww | uh its in S&L |
| 07:02.13 | Bagginsww | agree or disagree with it if you like LOL |
| 07:03.08 | Bagginsww | page 122 if you didnt know |
| 07:03.25 | Zeal | er.. think you said something about him thinking the Titans were evil or w/e. Beleive it was pretty clear he changed to beleive what they did was good, but it was futile and the onyl order was in chaos and thus decided to undo all the order they tried to bring. |
| 07:03.57 | Zeal | something along those lines.. |
| 07:03.59 | Bagginsww | Convinced that the Titans’ ordering of the universe |
| 07:03.59 | Bagginsww | was unnatural and ultimately responsible for |
| 07:03.59 | Bagginsww | the corrupted nature of the demons, Sargeras decided |
| 07:03.59 | Bagginsww | to undo the work of the Titans throughout |
| 07:03.59 | Bagginsww | the universe. The |
| 07:04.02 | Zeal | and i know it is. |
| 07:04.15 | Zeal | that's the quote? |
| 07:04.16 | Bagginsww | that's the quote |
| 07:04.17 | Bagginsww | yes |
| 07:04.28 | Zeal | contrdicts a diff quote then, lol. |
| 07:04.50 | Bagginsww | a crazed being is going ot be conflicting LOL |
| 07:05.13 | Bagginsww | sadly we are not told much about the time of ordering before they "encountered the dmeons" |
| 07:05.24 | Bagginsww | we know next to nothing of that era |
| 07:05.37 | Zeal | http://www.wowwiki.com/Help:Navigational_image when is someone going to correct that to say external images and links can be done, and have been for a long long time now (if not always..) |
| 07:06.24 | Sky2042 | i'm farirly certain external images aren't supposed to possible due to wikia turning the function of... xD |
| 07:06.30 | Sky2042 | but, as they are... |
| 07:07.49 | Bagginsww | The noble Sargeras, unable to process the raging doubt and despair |
| 07:07.50 | Bagginsww | that overwhelmed his senses, lost all faith in not only his mission, |
| 07:07.50 | Bagginsww | but the Titans’ vision of an ordered universe, as well. Sargeras |
| 07:07.50 | Bagginsww | began to believe that the concept of order itself was folly – and that |
| 07:07.50 | Bagginsww | chaos and depravity were the only absolutes within the dark, lonely |
| 07:07.51 | Bagginsww | universe. |
| 07:07.55 | Bagginsww | that's from warcraft iii manual |
| 07:08.03 | Zeal | "Eventually he came to believe that the concept of order itself was folly, and that chaos and depravity were the only absolutes within the dark, lonely universe." "By the time Sargeras' madness had consumed the last vestiges of his valiant spirit, he believed that the Titans themselves were responsible for creation's failure. Deciding, at last, to undo their works throughout the universe, he resolved to form an unstoppable army |
| 07:08.05 | Bagginsww | basically the same thing said S&L |
| 07:08.12 | Zeal | similar, not the same |
| 07:08.21 | Bagginsww | well not verbatim of course :p |
| 07:09.00 | Bagginsww | btw there are at least 3 different ways the same material is worded |
| 07:09.14 | Bagginsww | He was unable to comprehend |
| 07:09.14 | Bagginsww | the nature of such pure evil, and came to |
| 07:09.14 | Bagginsww | blame the Titans for what he considered to be their |
| 07:09.14 | Bagginsww | flawed pursuit of a false order. Sargeras concluded |
| 07:09.14 | Bagginsww | that chaos and depravity were the only true forces |
| 07:09.15 | Bagginsww | in the universe and angrily exiled himself from the |
| 07:09.17 | Bagginsww | ranks of the Titans forever. |
| 07:09.19 | Bagginsww | that's also from S&L |
| 07:09.46 | Bagginsww | so above you got three different paraphrases |
| 07:09.47 | Zeal | mainly the key word "unatural" and the blame for for demons. |
| 07:09.55 | Zeal | is what i have an issue with |
| 07:10.04 | Bagginsww | semantics :p |
| 07:10.04 | Zeal | they're bold, not really backed up statements |
| 07:11.14 | Zeal | Sky2042, when i first came to ww, they were usuable, and that was 1.7.1 so.. no idea, seemed as if it's always been able to do it :S |
| 07:11.45 | Bagginsww | zeal additional versios is in the warcraft Encyclopedia |
| 07:12.09 | Bagginsww | *version |
| 07:12.24 | Zeal | cba to load that up unless you know it can backup what S&L said :P |
| 07:12.36 | *** join/#wowwiki Sky2042_ (n=Sky2042@c-76-105-227-156.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 07:12.37 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v Sky2042_] by ChanServ |
| 07:12.40 | Bagginsww | huh? |
| 07:12.43 | Bagginsww | cba? |
| 07:12.51 | Zeal | can't be arsed. |
| 07:13.10 | Bagginsww | they all basically say that, he began to believe order was folly :p |
| 07:13.21 | Bagginsww | that titans ideas were stupid |
| 07:13.31 | Bagginsww | and that he lost faith |
| 07:13.53 | Bagginsww | and that chaos adn depravity was the truth :p |
| 07:14.16 | Zeal | kk |
| 07:14.24 | Zeal | thne stick with what i said. |
| 07:14.32 | Bagginsww | huh? |
| 07:14.37 | Bagginsww | what did you say? |
| 07:14.41 | Zeal | be interesting if that gets fleshed out at some point |
| 07:15.03 | Bagginsww | basically we come into the story way into the war |
| 07:15.09 | Bagginsww | we don't know what happened before hand though |
| 07:15.32 | Zeal | that saying what the Titans did is "unatural" and that they are to blame for Demons are bold statements to make and currently have nothing to back them up. |
| 07:15.40 | Bagginsww | that's where the context in S&L goes into the idea that itw as the ordering of the universe that lead to that war. |
| 07:15.58 | Bagginsww | unnatural? |
| 07:16.05 | Zeal | yeah |
| 07:16.15 | Bagginsww | where does it say that? |
| 07:16.20 | Bagginsww | I don't see it in S7L |
| 07:16.39 | Bagginsww | oh the conxtext |
| 07:16.49 | Bagginsww | basically its Sargeras thinking after the fact |
| 07:16.59 | Bagginsww | its after they went ot war |
| 07:17.07 | Zeal | "Convinced that the Titans' ordering of the universe was unnatural" |
| 07:17.12 | Bagginsww | way after the ordering of the worlds |
| 07:17.12 | Zeal | i dunno, you pasted it :P |
| 07:17.23 | Bagginsww | go read S&L you have the book |
| 07:17.27 | Zeal | i'm confused, what war? |
| 07:17.29 | Bagginsww | read the entire xontext |
| 07:17.38 | Bagginsww | the war with the "demons" |
| 07:17.57 | Bagginsww | the one that Sargeras was in charge of |
| 07:17.59 | Zeal | not following then. |
| 07:18.05 | Bagginsww | basically the order is this |
| 07:18.12 | Bagginsww | Titans order many worlds |
| 07:18.19 | Zeal | i know the order :p |
| 07:18.20 | Bagginsww | discover demons |
| 07:18.28 | Bagginsww | send sargeras to defeat them all |
| 07:18.48 | Bagginsww | sargeras startst to hink ordering is follow and chaos and depreavity are the real truths |
| 07:19.05 | Zeal | aye, i know i know :P |
| 07:19.09 | Bagginsww | then starts thinking that it was the ordering that may have created the demons int ehf irst place |
| 07:19.11 | Bagginsww | before they ran into them |
| 07:19.25 | Bagginsww | a side affect |
| 07:19.47 | Zeal | hm.. dunno about that |
| 07:20.10 | Bagginsww | whatever |
| 07:20.16 | Bagginsww | your free to speculate all you want |
| 07:20.47 | Zeal | because the order for me is, demons existed in some form of another, ordering, fed up with demons, sargeras chosen champ to fight, begins to go mad and turns. |
| 07:20.49 | [NewsBot] | World of Raids: First Illidan Kill in China - http://boards.worldofraids.com/topic-8512-1.html |
| 07:21.25 | Zeal | nothing to say that demons onyl existed after the order started, nothing to say either way at all. |
| 07:21.25 | Bagginsww | warcraft encyclopedia adds one more additioanl problem |
| 07:21.30 | Zeal | oh? |
| 07:21.32 | Bagginsww | it states that sargeras created all the demons LOL |
| 07:21.36 | Bagginsww | and that there was no war |
| 07:21.41 | Zeal | ... |
| 07:21.46 | Bagginsww | http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/encyclopedia/346.xml |
| 07:21.49 | Bagginsww | read it :) |
| 07:21.57 | Zeal | well i guess that's the retcon in action. |
| 07:21.59 | Bagginsww | Once a noble warrior for order and peace, Sargeras came to believe that there was a fundamental flaw in the universe, a flaw that made his primary purpose an impossible goal. He decided that the other titans were deeply misguided in trying to establish order throughout creation. Under the circumstances, the struggle was futile. The universe had to be destroyed utterly and remade without the underlying defect. Only then could true |
| 07:22.00 | Bagginsww | order be achieved. Thus, Sargeras conceived of a sweeping campaign to bring about the end of all things: the Burning Crusade. |
| 07:22.00 | Bagginsww | To carry out his plan, he created the Legion, whose ranks he bolstered by creating demons: immortal creatures whose hunger, power, and malice made them perfect killing machines. As a result, the Legion has grown immense and consumed countless worlds. To date, the only planet that has managed to thwart the Legion's power is Azeroth, a fact which enraged Sargeras and made him all the more determined to bring Azeroth to its knees. |
| 07:22.12 | Zeal | i love how you tell me to read it, then paste it ;) |
| 07:22.15 | Bagginsww | however the demon war is still in WoW itself |
| 07:22.17 | Bagginsww | lol |
| 07:22.18 | Bagginsww | heh heh |
| 07:22.36 | Bagginsww | LOL eredar were the "first demons" |
| 07:23.36 | Zeal | well i guess it's an easier concept to follow |
| 07:23.43 | Zeal | not sure i like it though. |
| 07:24.00 | Bagginsww | ya I think there are people have different views on the issue :p |
| 07:24.06 | Bagginsww | in the staff |
| 07:24.11 | Zeal | i bet |
| 07:24.16 | Bagginsww | I think its supposed to be stuck in myth and legend now :p |
| 07:24.23 | Bagginsww | and we just getting the various legends :p |
| 07:24.39 | Bagginsww | because tehre are defintely quests in wow and books that discuss the old material |
| 07:24.42 | Bagginsww | the demon war |
| 07:25.05 | Zeal | well, it's easier to understand and side with his reasoning this way, but then would he let himself go so much as to turn so clearly "evil" |
| 07:25.53 | Zeal | it's liek they've set him up like most races in wow, different but can be percieved as evil by others, yet everything he does is actually evil.. lol |
| 07:25.57 | Bagginsww | we have a chicken or the egg paradox here LOL |
| 07:27.06 | Zeal | Good example of how i would expect it to be done is something like the Ancients vs. the Ori in Stargate. |
| 07:28.19 | Zeal | Ori may have a fucked up view, but they're not relaly evil, just out to convert everyone for their way of thinking. in this case Sargeras is out to just kill destroy everything, which isn't an evil goal exactly. |
| 07:28.39 | Zeal | *to their own way |
| 07:29.07 | Zeal | Though i'll add that the Ori just want to cull everyone to use their energy to feed themselves ;) |
| 07:30.24 | Zeal | but their difference mainly between the two sides is a conflict of philosophy on ascension. |
| 07:30.33 | Zeal | *the |
| 07:31.26 | Zeal | But yeah.. sargeras lore is improving, but still not there. |
| 07:36.27 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Sargeras |
| 07:36.29 | Zeal | Bagginsww, http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Alleria2.jpg where's that from? |
| 07:36.31 | Bagginsww | I've split the ealry history stuff |
| 07:36.47 | Bagginsww | zeal you have the book in your hands :p |
| 07:36.55 | Zeal | fun |
| 07:36.55 | Bagginsww | S&L |
| 07:36.59 | Zeal | :p |
| 07:38.21 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Sargeras#Background_Legends |
| 07:38.27 | Bagginsww | it needs better titles for each legend section |
| 07:38.29 | Bagginsww | i'm tired |
| 07:38.31 | Bagginsww | can't think of any |
| 07:38.42 | Zeal | Opening paragraph still refers to the older lore. |
| 07:39.46 | Zeal | "ever even" pick one ;) |
| 07:41.39 | Zeal | oh, and citation link for the encylopedia has 2 brackets instead of 1. |
| 07:41.45 | Zeal | but yeah, nice. |
| 07:42.30 | Bagginsww | oops |
| 07:42.37 | Bagginsww | ok how is the intro paragraph now? |
| 07:43.00 | Zeal | good ^_^ |
| 07:43.13 | Bagginsww | I think its safe to say he was still a guardian and protector other than that we don't know what he was protecting themf rom LOL |
| 07:43.16 | Bagginsww | old gods only |
| 07:43.19 | Bagginsww | lol |
| 07:43.28 | Bagginsww | and itw asn't demons that drove him mad |
| 07:43.32 | Bagginsww | or it was ;) |
| 07:43.45 | Bagginsww | I know that the demons driving him mad bit is still in game |
| 07:43.57 | Zeal | yeah.. well agamar's (or w/e) lore would need a rewrite if they didn't make sargeras a champion first. |
| 07:44.29 | Zeal | lol yeah, metzen did use the old gods, just indrectly and not for what we expected! :P |
| 07:44.56 | Sky2042_ | i'm hungry |
| 07:45.20 | Zeal | bit hard (read: wasted time) to add rectons to wow |
| 07:45.37 | Zeal | *wasted resources |
| 07:45.42 | Zeal | lol sky. |
| 07:45.47 | Sky2042 | :) |
| 07:45.51 | Zeal | i am too : / |
| 07:45.59 | Bagginsww | Once a noble warrior for order and peace, Sargeras came to believe that there was a fundamental flaw in the universe, a flaw that made his primary purpose an impossible goal. He decided that the other titans were deeply misguided in trying to establish order throughout creation. Under the circumstances, the struggle was futile. The universe had to be destroyed utterly and remade without the underlying defect. Only then could true |
| 07:46.00 | Bagginsww | order be achieved. Thus, Sargeras conceived of a sweeping campaign to bring about the end of all things: the Burning Crusade. |
| 07:46.02 | Sky2042 | nothing like a bit of human corruption for the talk of a god's corruption, eh? |
| 07:46.06 | Bagginsww | even that states he was a warrior for order and peace |
| 07:46.12 | Bagginsww | so we do know that much is true |
| 07:46.28 | Bagginsww | lol |
| 07:46.40 | Bagginsww | zeal they did retcon a few wow books btw |
| 07:46.45 | Zeal | but i've got a funeral to go to on the 31st, and collection a friend from the airport tomorrow, so i need to spin my sleeping pattern on it's head, so need to keep awake :p |
| 07:46.51 | Bagginsww | like the RIse of the Horde |
| 07:46.58 | Bagginsww | :( |
| 07:47.17 | Zeal | it was rectoned? |
| 07:47.54 | Bagginsww | ya, we have both books archived |
| 07:48.19 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Kil%27jaeden_and_the_Shadow_Pact |
| 07:48.37 | Bagginsww | that's the only book in the set that was changed I think |
| 07:48.46 | Zeal | oh, sky did it! lol |
| 07:48.49 | Bagginsww | oen would have to check to see if the website has ever been updated LOL |
| 07:48.58 | Zeal | just he made a mistake :P |
| 07:49.04 | Sky2042 | uh/.... |
| 07:49.18 | Zeal | http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Rise_of_the_Horde_%28History_of_Warcraft%29&diff=next&oldid=686181 ;) |
| 07:49.20 | Sky2042 | i did it? |
| 07:49.45 | Sky2042 | check the ingame book |
| 07:50.07 | Bagginsww | the top version is the ingame book, unless someone edited it :p |
| 07:50.13 | Bagginsww | falsely |
| 07:50.42 | Bagginsww | http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/story/chapter3.html#20 |
| 07:50.48 | Bagginsww | of course the online version has not been updated |
| 07:50.50 | Bagginsww | lol |
| 07:50.59 | Zeal | top version? only one. |
| 07:51.12 | Bagginsww | top version is the ingame version |
| 07:51.24 | Bagginsww | bottom version shows where they differ on the online version |
| 07:51.27 | Zeal | there's onyl one version on that page, as with all. |
| 07:51.42 | Bagginsww | there are two versions |
| 07:51.46 | Bagginsww | the one in the box |
| 07:51.50 | Bagginsww | and section below it |
| 07:51.54 | Zeal | oh.. shadow pact |
| 07:51.59 | Zeal | sorry, didn;t see link |
| 07:52.03 | Zeal | thought you meant mine. |
| 07:52.29 | Bagginsww | its the second book int eh rise of the horde set |
| 07:52.41 | Bagginsww | or first book |
| 07:52.47 | Bagginsww | first book I guess |
| 07:52.52 | Sky2042 | http://www.wowhead.com/?object=175742 |
| 07:52.58 | Sky2042 | go to page 7 |
| 07:53.06 | Bagginsww | oh weird its backwards on line |
| 07:53.47 | Bagginsww | some differences? |
| 07:53.59 | Sky2042 | undoing yourself more than once can be fun! |
| 07:54.39 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowhead.com/?object=175741 |
| 07:54.40 | Sky2042 | i just realized i have a report to do :| |
| 07:54.43 | Zeal | so which got updated? online or in-game? |
| 07:54.44 | Bagginsww | not updated on wowhead |
| 07:54.46 | Bagginsww | its the old version |
| 07:54.53 | Bagginsww | did someone "fix" the ingame book unofficial |
| 07:55.01 | Zeal | dunno |
| 07:55.02 | Bagginsww | in wowwiki |
| 07:55.18 | Zeal | i beleive sky through they did, but then put it back, so he should know :P |
| 07:55.20 | Sky2042 | mustve; i believe he was probably the same person who fixed the one i just refixed |
| 07:55.25 | Zeal | *thought |
| 07:55.39 | Sky2042 | i originally fixed, then unfixed, then have now fixed |
| 07:55.44 | Sky2042 | refixed* |
| 07:55.45 | Sky2042 | >.> |
| 07:55.56 | Bagginsww | if I have the time I'll have to go hunt the books down and see if there is any change |
| 07:56.14 | Bagginsww | but ya wowhead just has the old version of shadowpact |
| 07:56.23 | Sky2042 | "old"? :| |
| 07:56.55 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Kil%27jaeden_and_the_Shadow_Pact |
| 07:57.04 | Bagginsww | read the bit in the box |
| 07:57.07 | Bagginsww | and read the bit down below |
| 07:57.15 | Bagginsww | the version down below is the old version |
| 07:57.22 | Bagginsww | wowhead has the old version |
| 07:57.36 | Bagginsww | which is beginning to make me think either wowhead isn't up to date |
| 07:57.46 | Bagginsww | or that someone "fixed" the article |
| 07:57.49 | Zeal | yeah, not surprised, text in those things probably don't get updated often. |
| 07:58.05 | Bagginsww | either way it needs tob e checked |
| 07:58.15 | Sky2042 | i think the wiki broke |
| 07:58.21 | Zeal | item will get updated sure, but the text need to be collected by the addon afaik. |
| 07:58.32 | Bagginsww | <PROTECTED> |
| 07:58.33 | Sky2042 | yup, someone broke the wiki |
| 07:58.40 | Bagginsww | that place still hurts at 70 |
| 07:58.48 | Bagginsww | mages and undead do not mix well |
| 07:58.51 | Sky2042 | wimp |
| 07:58.57 | Sky2042 | lrn2kite, nublet |
| 07:58.58 | Zeal | wiki fine for me :s |
| 07:59.02 | Bagginsww | I'm better with humanoids |
| 07:59.05 | Sky2042 | yeah... try editing zeal. |
| 07:59.11 | Zeal | lol |
| 07:59.23 | Sky2042 | then check rc to see if edit went through |
| 07:59.35 | Sky2042 | of course, sannse's not on... :| |
| 07:59.50 | Bagginsww | ok the edits were made by adamg |
| 08:00.20 | Bagginsww | and he got into trouble for editing text on another history of warcraft |
| 08:00.21 | Bagginsww | page |
| 08:00.32 | Bagginsww | so I think its safe to say it might be a vandalism |
| 08:00.37 | Bagginsww | someone trying to "fix" |
| 08:00.37 | Sky2042 | not vandalism |
| 08:00.45 | Sky2042 | but then, not correct |
| 08:01.09 | Bagginsww | I'm reverting back to the original |
| 08:01.30 | Bagginsww | based on the fact he was previously warned for editing other books in the series |
| 08:01.33 | Sky2042 | no you're not |
| 08:01.35 | Sky2042 | >.> |
| 08:01.43 | Sky2042 | i already told you. the wiki's broken |
| 08:01.47 | Sky2042 | or was... |
| 08:01.50 | Sky2042 | wtf? |
| 08:01.57 | Bagginsww | its not :p |
| 08:02.37 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Kil%27jaeden_and_the_Shadow_Pact |
| 08:02.40 | Bagginsww | back to how it was |
| 08:02.49 | Bagginsww | now if someoen can prove it altered :) |
| 08:03.00 | Bagginsww | a screenshot of course ;) |
| 08:03.15 | Zeal | lol |
| 08:03.58 | Zeal | hm.. think i'll make so food nad go downstairs, wait to see if my delivery comes today. gief my manga. |
| 08:04.01 | Bagginsww | so ya zeal we are back to square one, blizzard may not bother with fixing anything that obscure ;) |
| 08:04.10 | Bagginsww | or they don't care |
| 08:04.11 | Zeal | lol |
| 08:04.14 | Zeal | aye |
| 08:04.21 | Sky2042 | http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=1987&p=21660 |
| 08:04.29 | Sky2042 | try that, next time you get in game |
| 08:04.43 | Zeal | sky, what do you actually do at wh now btw? |
| 08:04.48 | Sky2042 | moderate |
| 08:04.51 | Bagginsww | lol |
| 08:05.39 | Sky2042 | i have green color on the forums, and my beatstick / carrot for comments is a bit bigger, and i can delete comments and posts. that's pretty much it. |
| 08:06.18 | Zeal | dunno if my mod privaleges have evne been removed yet, weren't last time i bothered to log in. |
| 08:06.18 | Bagginsww | oh boy adamg was modifying most of the articles |
| 08:06.27 | Bagginsww | most of the history articles |
| 08:06.35 | Zeal | <_o; |
| 08:06.37 | Sky2042 | Bagginsww: yes. some of them got reverted, others did not |
| 08:06.38 | Bagginsww | so its definitely not real |
| 08:06.46 | [NewsBot] | GamePolitics: SCMRPG Designer Reviews Moral Kombat Film - http://gamepolitics.com/2007/10/29/ledonne-reviews-moral-kombat-film/ |
| 08:06.48 | Bagginsww | need to check through thsoe |
| 08:06.49 | [NewsBot] | GamePolitics: Developers Argue For M-rated Games on Nintendo DS - http://gamepolitics.com/2007/10/29/developers-argue-for-m-rated-games-on-nintendo-ds/ |
| 08:07.41 | Zeal | ah, nah, i've lost my privaleges now. |
| 08:07.56 | Sky2042 | if you want to come back, skosiris won't bite... probably. |
| 08:07.58 | Zeal | you have green text you say? isn't that just you get an isntant +5? |
| 08:08.07 | Zeal | no no, not coming back |
| 08:08.11 | Zeal | not touching wh. |
| 08:08.14 | Sky2042 | no, the forums let me have green text |
| 08:08.15 | Sky2042 | lol |
| 08:08.18 | Zeal | ah |
| 08:08.24 | Sky2042 | http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&board=0 and etc |
| 08:09.26 | Bagginsww | wow most of adamg posts are bad LOL |
| 08:09.45 | Bagginsww | reverted on other articles too |
| 08:09.50 | Bagginsww | he ever get banned? |
| 08:10.01 | Sky2042 | nah, it wasn't something to be banned for |
| 08:10.15 | Sky2042 | tekkub set down a warning (he doesn't need another) and that was that |
| 08:10.34 | Bagginsww | cool |
| 08:10.45 | Bagginsww | ya if he stopped after a warning, thats good |
| 08:11.16 | Bagginsww | reminds me of the time I had to fix all the stuff Dark Tichondrius did to Warcraft II text ;p |
| 08:11.26 | Bagginsww | removing all references to Azeroth replacing them with STormwind |
| 08:11.40 | Zeal | lol |
| 08:11.57 | Sky2042 | lol |
| 08:12.01 | Sky2042 | xd |
| 08:12.11 | Bagginsww | heh |
| 08:12.31 | Bagginsww | but ya I'm strongly against alterting of text, unless its a minor fix of a typo, or I was paraphrasing to begin with |
| 08:12.42 | Bagginsww | I usualy only do that for brann |
| 08:12.56 | Sky2042 | yeah... and then i come and kill it. muahahahahahaha |
| 08:13.00 | Bagginsww | :p |
| 08:13.11 | Sky2042 | actually, I'm rather proud of [[Al'Akir]] and [[Neptulon]] |
| 08:13.19 | *** join/#wowwiki Kalroth (n=kalroth@0x573f1066.hjnqu1.broadband.tele.dk) |
| 08:13.19 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v Kalroth] by ChanServ |
| 08:13.48 | Bagginsww | I hate combat sections personally :p |
| 08:14.28 | Bagginsww | I like to merge them into all into one paragraph of lore |
| 08:14.46 | Sky2042 | yeah... when there isn't any other lore though? :O |
| 08:14.54 | Bagginsww | I.E. just blend in the ability names together |
| 08:15.06 | Bagginsww | not section it |
| 08:15.30 | Sky2042 | yeah... lern2paragraph then |
| 08:15.32 | Bagginsww | putting similiar abilities together into their own paragraphs |
| 08:15.45 | Bagginsww | well the paragraph is about combatin general |
| 08:15.58 | Zeal | Midnight is a she? :S |
| 08:16.00 | Bagginsww | if you read the basic combat paragraphs anyways its all about randoma ttack types |
| 08:16.17 | Sky2042 | Zeal: eh? |
| 08:16.39 | Bagginsww | I don't know |
| 08:16.50 | Zeal | attumen's mount |
| 08:17.00 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Pandemonius its obvious he's form Pandaria ;) |
| 08:17.05 | Zeal | just noticed on wh's ww port it says she. |
| 08:17.54 | Bagginsww | but ya sky the combat paraphgras usually jump around to different ablities |
| 08:18.14 | Bagginsww | I just merge the bit of lore from the abilities sections into those paragraphs |
| 08:18.24 | Bagginsww | especially where it makes the most sense order wise |
| 08:18.26 | Zeal | ok, well i'm going downstairs, bbl maybe, perhaps not though. |
| 08:18.55 | Bagginsww | like if it discusses "flame wreath" hypothetically |
| 08:19.16 | Bagginsww | I'd then put the sentence about flame wreath from the ability in that section of the paragraph. |
| 08:22.13 | Bagginsww | well night all |
| 08:23.05 | Sky2042 | night |
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| 08:52.13 | Sky2042 | !jobqueue |
| 08:52.15 | [NewsBot] | The www.wowwiki.com job queue length is currently 24 doing ~1 job/s, done in approx. 24secs. |
| 08:55.12 | Sky2042 | jesus {{welcome}} is transcluded to like, 2000 pages |
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| 09:07.59 | Fisker- | yarr Bibi |
| 09:08.03 | Fisker- | we got moar of tehm fags |
| 09:14.49 | *** join/#wowwiki infobot (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt) |
| 09:14.49 | *** topic/#wowwiki is Chan rules: http://tinyurl.com/36u82j - UI questions: #wowi-lounge - No trolling/acc trading/emu serv talks, thanks || Press release! http://www.wikia.com/wiki/WOWrelease || Steam! http://steamcommunity.com/groups/wowwiki || We are an official fan site! || 44,000! |
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| 09:23.43 | xiraa | anyone here play a warlock in 3's? wanted to discuss the changes to Soul Siphon and possible build changes next patch, wanted some input :o |
| 09:26.00 | xiraa | if not, anyone know a good place on IRC to discuss arena/class gameplay? |
| 09:26.47 | [NewsBot] | GamePolitics: Rockstar “Spazzed Out Like Little Babies” Says Simpsons Producer - http://gamepolitics.com/2007/10/29/rockstar-spazzed-out-like-little-babies-says-simpsons-producer/ |
| 09:26.50 | [NewsBot] | GamePolitics: New York Times Previews Manhunt 2 - http://gamepolitics.com/2007/10/29/new-york-times-previews-manhunt-2/ |
| 09:33.33 | *** join/#wowwiki Lukian (n=wizard@203.171.70.21) |
| 10:01.17 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Blues! Why are you using comunism`s technics? - http://www.wowblues.com/eu/blues-why-are-you-using-comunisms-technics-1422392914.html |
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| 11:43.53 | Adys | lol |
| 11:44.09 | Adys | "Outlands" is the FIRST thing i saw when checking wowwiki main page |
| 11:48.16 | Adys | http://teo.selfip.net/wowwiki-ie3.png |
| 11:48.23 | Adys | wowwiki in ie3 courtesy of teo :p |
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| 12:05.23 | [NewsBot] | WoW Insider: Breakfast Topic: Abilities you'd like to see in the Warcraft movie - http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/10/29/breakfast-topic-abilities-youd-like-to-see-in-the-warcraft-mov/ |
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| 13:09.24 | [NewsBot] | WoW Insider: Want to win a 60d gamecard? Caption This! - http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/10/29/want-to-win-a-60d-gamecard-caption-this/ |
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| 13:27.21 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: 29/10 No 3rd profession at level 80 - http://www.wowblues.com/eu/2910-no-3rd-profession-at-level-80-1384108415.html |
| 13:27.27 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Season 3 has new stats - http://www.wowblues.com/eu/season-3-has-new-stats-1422602630.html |
| 13:37.18 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Season 3 ETA? - http://www.wowblues.com/eu/season-3-eta-1380988471.html |
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| 13:55.09 | pcj | http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=User:Car_Rental&rcid=865783 ban |
| 13:57.48 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Nether Vortex - http://www.wowblues.com/eu/nether-vortex-450645210.html |
| 14:05.24 | [NewsBot] | WoW Insider: Around Azeroth: Improved sun - http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/10/29/around-azeroth-improved-sun/ |
| 14:05.51 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: 29/10 Nethaera on Zul'Aman - http://www.wowblues.com/eu/2910-nethaera-on-zulaman-1384108416.html |
| 14:10.33 | *** join/#wowwiki laurly (n=test@0x50a4082e.vgnxx4.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk) |
| 14:13.51 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: StarCraft II - Questions & Answers - Batches? - http://www.wowblues.com/eu/starcraft-ii-questions-amp-answers-batches-1015913162.html |
| 14:20.36 | *** join/#wowwiki foxlit (n=foxlit@0x573e6bae.albnxx18.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk) |
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| 14:25.26 | pcj | hi laurly :) |
| 14:26.28 | laurly | i am not here |
| 14:26.38 | pcj | ok |
| 14:26.43 | laurly | broke guilds dkp site beging help from linux guys :) |
| 14:26.55 | laurly | database backups are a good thing |
| 14:27.02 | laurly | to bad i dont have any |
| 14:27.29 | pcj | does your webhost perform them automatically |
| 14:27.30 | pcj | some do |
| 14:27.45 | laurly | I r Webhost so that would be a no |
| 14:27.53 | pcj | lol pwned |
| 14:27.58 | laurly | indead |
| 14:28.36 | laurly | mission is to fix it beofre the kids figure out they have no dkp |
| 14:29.37 | *** join/#wowwiki Lukian (n=wizard@203.171.70.21) |
| 14:31.59 | pcj | well gl |
| 14:36.27 | hurax | hi laurly who is not here |
| 14:38.01 | laurly | hey have you guys heard anything about the rumor that they are lowering the epic riding skill from 5k g to 2.5k g ? |
| 14:38.35 | hurax | no |
| 14:41.06 | pcj | they aren't |
| 14:41.15 | pcj | not in next patch at least |
| 14:41.32 | foxlit | I don't see them ever doing that, tbh |
| 14:41.48 | foxlit | Swift flying mounts aren't really an issue in Northrend |
| 14:42.16 | pcj | maybe when maelstrom expac comes out and we'll need 375 riding to use aquatic mounts |
| 14:56.43 | Kirkburn|sleep | It is just that, a rumor |
| 14:57.21 | Kirkburn|sleep | Blizz have already responded to it once, telling people to stop spreading stuff that has no basis :P |
| 15:02.16 | laurly | finaly started farming for my epic mount i was kinda hoping |
| 15:03.00 | Kalroth | Northrend will contain no changes to the current mount skill required. |
| 15:03.07 | Kalroth | Pricing noone can predict :) |
| 15:03.20 | Kalroth | I guess if Blizzard feels that too few got the swift mount, then they'll lower it. |
| 15:03.30 | laurly | northrend is more then a year away i wouldnt worry abou tit |
| 15:06.45 | Kirkburn|sleep | More than a year, you say? |
| 15:06.59 | Kirkburn|sleep | I still you are overly pessimistic :P |
| 15:07.03 | *** join/#wowwiki pcj (n=pcjjenks@pdpc/supporter/active/pcj) |
| 15:07.03 | Kirkburn|sleep | *think |
| 15:07.03 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v pcj] by ChanServ |
| 15:09.20 | Fisker- | foxlit |
| 15:09.24 | [NewsBot] | WoW Insider: Officers' Quarters: Loot whores -- Are you their pimp? - http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/10/29/officers-quarters-loot-whores-are-you-their-pimp/ |
| 15:09.26 | Fisker- | :O |
| 15:10.20 | pcj | kirkburn http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=User:Car_Rental&rcid=865783 |
| 15:10.49 | Kirkburn|sleep | lol |
| 15:12.41 | *** join/#wowwiki Gryphen (n=gryphon@71.216.187.10) |
| 15:12.41 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Gryphen] by ChanServ |
| 15:12.58 | pcj | not lol, ban >:( |
| 15:13.06 | laurly | im a programer its my job to be pessimistic when programing deadlines are conserned even if its not a project im part of :) |
| 15:13.49 | pcj | say laurly even though you're not here do you have any idea when/if laurlybot is coming back? or should i stop tagging stuff for laurlybot |
| 15:13.52 | DuTempete | morning, Darlings |
| 15:13.54 | pcj | morning DuTempete :) |
| 15:16.47 | laurly | maybe dusting off laurlybot will take my mind off looking for work issues pcj |
| 15:17.19 | pcj | yay :) |
| 15:17.50 | laurly | looking for work is depressing |
| 15:18.14 | DuTempete | laurly, you lost you job? |
| 15:18.15 | Kirkburn|sleep | :( |
| 15:18.26 | laurly | kids are crazy my daugher just came in and asked "when are we going to start decorating for xmass" |
| 15:18.40 | pcj | lol |
| 15:18.50 | laurly | DuTempete yeah they ran out of stuff for me to do back in june thats why i started playing with wiki |
| 15:19.18 | pcj | :( |
| 15:20.10 | Fisker- | laurly foxlit :/ |
| 15:20.21 | Fisker- | i require DKDK 8800 GT vendor that's not shg |
| 15:21.21 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Devs...Housing anytime soooon? - http://www.wowblues.com/us/devshousing-anytime-soooon-2650558333.html |
| 15:21.23 | laurly | wish i lived in kobenhaven i would be all set finding a job :/ |
| 15:21.26 | laurly | living in the middle of no where sucks |
| 15:21.37 | Fisker- | it's københavn hoho |
| 15:22.14 | foxlit | copenhagen |
| 15:22.36 | foxlit | Never get the people who buy high end video cards |
| 15:23.22 | foxlit | The performance gain from mid-range cards isn't noticeable in the current generation of games, and the next generation of mid-range cards will beat your current generation card and do it cheaper :/ |
| 15:23.43 | foxlit | gain from=difference between them and |
| 15:25.01 | foxlit | And dataworld sent me an invalid track & trace number and still hasn't figured out what the heck they did |
| 15:28.37 | Fisker- | dataworld has 8800 GT_ |
| 15:28.37 | Fisker- | ? |
| 15:29.04 | Fisker- | nope :< |
| 15:29.05 | foxlit | maybe. maybe not. |
| 15:29.19 | Fisker- | i need it :( |
| 15:29.23 | Fisker- | or i'll become an hero tomorrow |
| 15:29.34 | foxlit | "need"? |
| 15:29.38 | foxlit | "or"? |
| 15:30.01 | Fisker- | yeah |
| 15:30.12 | foxlit | doesn't make any sense. |
| 15:30.21 | Fisker- | why not? |
| 15:32.48 | foxlit | "need" is somewhat similar to "want" when applied to non-essential objects |
| 15:33.18 | foxlit | "or i'll become a hero" doesn't make sense either - hero is a positive thing, you "need something or (something negative)" is the typical form of that line |
| 15:34.09 | pcj | kirkburn why is wantedpages borked |
| 15:34.13 | Fisker- | harr foxlit |
| 15:34.18 | Fisker- | "An hero" is committing suicide |
| 15:34.30 | Kirkburn|sleep | From the guild and server creation stuff |
| 15:34.41 | pcj | So it'll always only show 120 wanted pages? |
| 15:34.52 | Kirkburn | Wait, what? |
| 15:34.56 | pcj | oh nvm |
| 15:35.05 | pcj | i clicked 20 instead of next 100 |
| 15:35.11 | Kalroth | poor Kirky :( |
| 15:35.17 | Kalroth | Now you scared him |
| 15:35.17 | DuTempete | dumbass |
| 15:35.24 | Kirkburn | >_< |
| 15:35.25 | pcj | yep |
| 15:35.37 | foxlit | Fisker-: translating that from somewhere? |
| 15:35.52 | Fisker- | no |
| 15:35.57 | Fisker- | it's 4chan lingo |
| 15:35.59 | Kirkburn | I think the pages linking to the server/guild pages just need recaching |
| 15:36.22 | foxlit | Right, so "not English" applies |
| 15:36.31 | Kalroth | I wonder if I could sneak mime encoded boobies on my userpage. |
| 15:37.03 | *** join/#wowwiki ChiLLabiS (i=WinNT@host-83-166-31-165.serva.net) |
| 15:37.21 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Mootank - The next level??? - http://www.wowblues.com/eu/mootank-the-next-level-1422602661.html |
| 15:38.20 | DuTempete | BOOBIES!!! |
| 15:39.13 | Kirkburn | I prefer sizable boobies and I cannot prevaricate. |
| 15:39.21 | pcj | Yes you can |
| 15:39.25 | pcj | I've seen it |
| 15:39.49 | Kalroth | Oh, it's a fancy word for lie |
| 15:40.10 | Kirkburn | :P |
| 15:40.22 | Kalroth | Or said in layman terms; to equivocate! |
| 15:40.38 | Kalroth | Kinda |
| 15:42.02 | *** join/#wowwiki Meroth (n=j0n@ti121210a081-6040.bb.online.no) |
| 15:42.19 | Kirkburn | You alternative siblings can't dispute. |
| 15:44.21 | Kalroth | haha |
| 15:47.03 | DuTempete | As long as there's enough for a mouthful, and not so much that I can't put my hand at least halfway around them, I like all sorts of boobies. :P |
| 15:48.12 | DuTempete | pcj, you didn't fall out of your chair, did you? |
| 15:49.04 | Kirkburn | :O |
| 15:52.06 | pcj | lol |
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| 16:01.21 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: New S3 gear color please... - http://www.wowblues.com/eu/new-s3-gear-color-please-1381208234.html |
| 16:05.24 | [NewsBot] | WoW Insider: WoW Moviewatch: Petite Nikita - http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/10/29/wow-moviewatch-petite-nikita/ |
| 16:07.46 | pcj | http://www.wowwiki.com/LeeMacro |
| 16:11.39 | Kirkburn | ~lart pcj |
| 16:11.39 | infobot | calls pcj on the phone ... the lights are on but nobody's home |
| 16:12.08 | pcj | . |
| 16:13.04 | pcj | heh as a goblin you can just walk up on the great anvil, no jumping |
| 16:13.51 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Paid character transfer - http://www.wowblues.com/eu/paid-character-transfer-1381638959.html |
| 16:19.21 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: [OOC] Unleashed now defunct. - http://www.wowblues.com/eu/ooc-unleashed-now-defunct-1152757687.html |
| 16:21.51 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: _Ruins of Lorderon Arena on PTR - http://www.wowblues.com/us/ruins-of-lorderon-arena-on-ptr-2650558406.html |
| 16:33.21 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Something blizzard did not want you to know - http://www.wowblues.com/eu/something-blizzard-did-not-want-you-to-know-1380988830.html |
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| 16:34.18 | Fisker- | oh oh Kirkburn now wowwiki will crash and burn!1 |
| 16:34.30 | Bagginsww | didn't wow, have like 3 moons in the sky during early release patches? Then they removed 2 at some point? |
| 16:36.40 | moveax | haha what? |
| 16:37.29 | Bagginsww | you know moons in the sky? |
| 16:37.47 | moveax | the things made of cheese with little men living on them? |
| 16:37.51 | Bagginsww | lol |
| 16:38.25 | Bagginsww | As I remember, and I may be misremebering, there was the white one we still see, a greenish one, and a blueish one. |
| 16:38.54 | pcj | probably didn't flow well with being able to see azeroth from outland |
| 16:39.11 | moveax | aye |
| 16:39.22 | moveax | I think Blizzard have gone a bit made by introducing theoutland |
| 16:39.25 | moveax | mad* |
| 16:39.51 | moveax | I mean, in the outland the chunk of land that was once where the swirling thing is on the azeroth map? |
| 16:40.04 | pcj | no |
| 16:40.13 | Bagginsww | you can only see Azeroth in one spot in outland. I think that may be a trick of the twisting nether |
| 16:40.37 | moveax | see I haven't delved into the story deep enough to udnerstand why the outlands even exists |
| 16:40.48 | Bagginsww | twisting nether is strange polymorphic realm. |
| 16:41.04 | Yukinon | how difficult is heroic Underbog? |
| 16:41.05 | Bagginsww | well if scientifically it shouldn |
| 16:41.26 | Bagginsww | toutland isn't in the maelstrom |
| 16:41.32 | Bagginsww | that's different place |
| 16:41.45 | Bagginsww | outland is another world, once draenor |
| 16:42.19 | Bagginsww | but ya the moons were removed just before or with the release of the weather patch |
| 16:42.22 | Bagginsww | so that's a long time back |
| 16:42.46 | Bagginsww | technically they should have only removed one of the moons |
| 16:42.50 | Bagginsww | the greenish one |
| 16:43.08 | Bagginsww | because there is enough lore in game, and in other sources discussing the name of the white and blue one |
| 16:43.14 | Bagginsww | [[moon]] |
| 16:43.15 | [NewsBot] | Bagginsww meant: http://www.wowwiki.com/moon |
| 16:53.24 | [NewsBot] | WoW Insider: Is rerolling worth it? - http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/10/29/is-rerolling-worth-it/ |
| 17:01.45 | *** join/#wowwiki Daemona (n=me@d157156.adsl.hansenet.de) |
| 17:05.21 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Important: Season 2 Team Qualification - http://www.wowblues.com/us/important-season-2-team-qualification-2649798359.html |
| 17:05.27 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Blood Knight Charger (epic/150); Guide - http://www.wowblues.com/eu/blood-knight-charger-epic150-guide-120475033.html |
| 17:09.48 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Important: Season 2 Team Qualification - http://www.wowblues.com/eu/important-season-2-team-qualification-1440454069.html |
| 17:09.54 | [NewsBot] | [ASSERTATION FAILURE] cameraIndex cam - http://www.wowblues.com/us/assertation-failure-cameraindex-lt-datagtcam-2649577104.html |
| 17:16.25 | *** join/#wowwiki Demetrious (n=demetrio@unaffiliated/demetrious) |
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| 17:23.49 | [NewsBot] | BlizzPlanet: Starcraft: The Board Game - Graphic Design Process - http://www.blizzplanet.com/?act=News&id=1797 |
| 17:26.32 | *** join/#wowwiki Kalroth (n=kalroth@port114.ds1-hj.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
| 17:26.32 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v Kalroth] by ChanServ |
| 17:29.18 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: [!] Blizzcon 2k8 Preview and then some ...... - http://www.wowblues.com/us/blizzcon-2k8-preview-and-then-some-2647297467.html |
| 17:36.03 | *** join/#wowwiki Lin (n=igor@unaffiliated/lincity) |
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| 17:39.53 | winkiller | yeek, a voice |
| 17:40.09 | winkiller | the first step to world domination |
| 17:40.59 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Sargeras#Sargeras.27s_Banishment |
| 17:41.06 | Bagginsww | updated that section to include info from the rpg |
| 17:41.47 | pcj | hooray |
| 17:42.01 | *** join/#wowwiki Keolah (n=zenkeola@c-24-22-67-51.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 17:44.27 | Bagginsww | so ya there is possibly two sargeras' out there, LOL |
| 17:44.42 | Bagginsww | real Sargeras and that portion of his soul, heh heh |
| 17:50.37 | Kirkburn | General question - how can we get more visitors to WoWWiki? |
| 17:51.45 | pcj | Advertise! |
| 17:52.02 | Kirkburn | Improvements/additions to the wiki, that is |
| 17:52.25 | pcj | Do you want editors or visitors |
| 17:52.57 | Kirkburn | Both |
| 17:53.43 | Dotted | i think people are a bid afraid to edit the articles, |
| 17:53.45 | Bagginsww | More visitors are nice unless they are evil aliens, hellbent on destroying us :) |
| 17:53.57 | pcj | Isn't there some way fan sites get featured on the wow.com website |
| 17:54.00 | Dotted | except for vandals ofc ;) |
| 17:54.38 | Bagginsww | evil aliens = vandal/violators ;) |
| 17:54.39 | Kirkburn | Dotted, any ideas how that could be helped? |
| 17:55.22 | Dotted | some sort of "we wont hunt you and your family if you mess up this article" kind of sign |
| 17:55.39 | Dotted | i know i was a bit uneasy editing stuff at first |
| 17:55.48 | Kirkburn | Hmm, I wonder where I could fit that in |
| 17:56.35 | Kirkburn | pcj, we're already a featured site |
| 17:56.58 | Kirkburn | However, I think our problem is picking out articles/submissions to get other sites to link to |
| 17:56.59 | pcj | I meant in the Community spotlight |
| 17:57.04 | winkiller | Dotted: we won't? |
| 17:57.27 | winkiller | I seriously have no clue sadly :( |
| 17:57.28 | Dotted | winkiller officially we wont, but you know ;););) |
| 17:57.45 | winkiller | I am not that shy to edit, but then I'm classified nerd and been using wikipedia for years |
| 17:57.51 | winkiller | I only always ask HOW to do it :P |
| 17:57.58 | winkiller | and mess up if I get no answer |
| 17:58.05 | pcj | someone needs to add 41 articles real quick so the channel topic can be updated |
| 17:58.12 | Kirkburn | hehe |
| 17:58.21 | *** join/#wowwiki Droolio (n=drool@87-194-188-170.bethere.co.uk) |
| 17:58.25 | Kirkburn | See, reaching a milestone like 45,000 pages would be reportable |
| 17:58.56 | winkiller | pcj: http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=3449 has some items and ingame objects that aren't in yet |
| 17:58.56 | *** join/#wowwiki Impaler (n=Scar@86.99.12.120) |
| 17:59.17 | winkiller | go ahead, nearly 10 more :P |
| 18:03.08 | Fisker- | don't cry tonight Kirkburn :( |
| 18:03.17 | Kirkburn | er, k |
| 18:03.38 | Fisker- | a blue linked wowwiki |
| 18:03.46 | Fisker- | your servers won't be able to handle it! |
| 18:05.25 | [NewsBot] | WoW Insider: Learning a third profession at level 80 - http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/10/29/learning-a-third-profession-at-level-80/ |
| 18:05.36 | Kirkburn | Fisker-, lol |
| 18:05.43 | pcj | http://www.wowwiki.com/Ur |
| 18:05.44 | Kirkburn | It's almost always the EU ones I notice |
| 18:06.34 | Fisker- | i want a new graphics card :( |
| 18:07.01 | Kirkburn | pcj, you want citations on stuff that's self-evident? |
| 18:07.20 | Kirkburn | Lines two and three are sourced by their links |
| 18:07.27 | pcj | Yeah, ok |
| 18:07.31 | Kirkburn | :) |
| 18:08.44 | pcj | I think {{Addon}} should be changed to be more like {{Guild}}, for consistency |
| 18:13.41 | Bagginsww | We should fight Mecha-Hogger in Northrend ;) |
| 18:14.19 | pcj | Or fight Hogger at the same time as Headless Horseman to make the epics he drops justifiable |
| 18:18.43 | *** join/#wowwiki Zizanzu (n=Zizanzu@d81b0aa080-b73.monet.no) |
| 18:21.52 | [NewsBot] | [ASSERTATION] cameraIndex cameras.cou - http://www.wowblues.com/us/assertation-cameraindex-lt-datagtcamerascou-2649577104.html |
| 18:26.57 | Bagginsww | http://www.wowwiki.com/Eredar#History I've added the line that states that Eredar were the first sentient demons to join the Burning Legion |
| 18:27.09 | Bagginsww | this means that pitlords and nathrezim came later :p |
| 18:29.52 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: 4000 honor from Daily BG Quests? Confirm? - http://www.wowblues.com/us/4000-honor-from-daily-bg-quests-confirm-2647258463.html |
| 18:30.29 | Bagginsww | but I guess they were always said to be the first among the burning legion |
| 18:37.52 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: The Official ▌Dreaded MondaY▐ Task Force ™ © - http://www.wowblues.com/us/the-official-dreaded-monday-task-force-2649578355.html |
| 18:41.22 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Priests: Focused Will - http://www.wowblues.com/us/priests-focused-will-2649798460.html |
| 18:41.28 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Priests: Focused Will - http://www.wowblues.com/us/priests-focused-will-2649798458.html |
| 18:43.23 | pcj | http://www.wowwiki.com/WOW_Gold_Price_List_Guide |
| 18:44.27 | Kirkburn | Done |
| 18:44.54 | pcj | hmm |
| 18:47.22 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: OK wtf is with Blizzcon Misinformation - http://www.wowblues.com/us/ok-wtf-is-with-blizzcon-misinformation-2650558343.html |
| 18:47.28 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Elemental - http://www.wowblues.com/us/elemental-2647308387.html |
| 18:49.01 | *** join/#wowwiki _dok3Dal (n=dok@AStrasbourg-251-1-74-247.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 19:01.52 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Guild Relations Program and RP Servers - http://www.wowblues.com/us/guild-relations-program-and-rp-servers-2509270181.html |
| 19:05.22 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Dev/CM response magic 8 ball - http://www.wowblues.com/us/devcm-response-magic-8-ball-2647308569.html |
| 19:05.29 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: New dance in WotLK - http://www.wowblues.com/us/new-dance-in-wotlk-2647258485.html |
| 19:05.43 | pcj | aren't http://www.wowwiki.com/Hall_of_Thanes#Access exploits |
| 19:06.26 | Kirkburn | Good question |
| 19:06.36 | Kirkburn | They kinda are |
| 19:06.50 | Kirkburn | Btw, that last wowblue - Bornakk says "We still have to wait before releasing information on how the new dances will work with Wrath of the Lich King." ... that sounds promising |
| 19:07.06 | Kirkburn | Like there's more to it than just adding new dances to the rotation |
| 19:08.01 | Fisker- | you'll have to do a perfect combo of the the pylons are trap balls, and if you don't you get banned |
| 19:08.10 | Fisker- | each time you /dance of course |
| 19:08.28 | Zizanzu | i'mmissing to type numbers with horde |
| 19:09.25 | [NewsBot] | WoW Insider: Announcing WoW Insider's Hallow's End Costume Contest! - http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/10/29/announcing-wow-insiders-hallows-end-costume-contest/ |
| 19:13.20 | Kirkburn | Ooh, can finally hide the Main Page heading |
| 19:14.06 | Lukian | Is Uldam ever going to be open / an instance? |
| 19:14.21 | Kirkburn | Not really a question any of us can answer :P |
| 19:14.29 | Kirkburn | "Hopefully", work for you? ;) |
| 19:14.34 | Lukian | sure :) |
| 19:14.38 | *** join/#wowwiki Zizanzu_ (n=Zizanzu@d81b0aa080-b73.monet.no) |
| 19:15.29 | pcj | They said it was in WotLK |
| 19:15.46 | Kirkburn | Ulduar, pcj |
| 19:15.58 | *** part/#wowwiki Zizanzu_ (n=Zizanzu@d81b0aa080-b73.monet.no) |
| 19:16.22 | pcj | Bah, they said Uldum, I read it somewhere |
| 19:17.31 | *** join/#wowwiki Zizanzu_ (n=Zizanzu@d81b0aa080-b73.monet.no) |
| 19:19.16 | pcj | hah nvm then http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=2520310773&postId=25749401435&sid=1#20 |
| 19:19.48 | *** join/#wowwiki Zizanzu_ (n=Zizanzu@d81b0aa080-b73.monet.no) |
| 19:21.25 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: 80 does not have a nice ring to it... - http://www.wowblues.com/us/80-does-not-have-a-nice-ring-to-it-2649798302.html |
| 19:25.52 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: _PTR Scheduled Maintenance Tue - http://www.wowblues.com/us/ptr-scheduled-maintenance-tue-2650558618.html |
| 19:38.30 | Zeal | actually, someone said both, but they screwed up pcj |
| 19:38.40 | Zeal | they've since said ulduar only. |
| 19:39.00 | pcj | a bit late there |
| 19:39.01 | Zeal | Uldum is still on their "to do list" |
| 19:39.49 | Zeal | not really, info to add which wasn;t in the blue ;) |
| 19:40.46 | Zeal | beleive they also named ulduar wrong in the early previews too, been fixed now. |
| 19:40.51 | pcj | the question was already answered however |
| 19:41.14 | *** join/#wowwiki Adys (n=Adys@APoitiers-257-1-7-108.w90-38.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 19:41.14 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Adys] by ChanServ |
| 19:41.25 | Zeal | i'm making you look less clueless though, cos you can blame blizz for not knowing ;) |
| 19:41.28 | [NewsBot] | WoW Insider: More polls on the WoW forums - http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/10/29/more-polls-on-the-wow-forums/ |
| 19:42.59 | *** join/#wowwiki Tekkub (n=tekkub@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Dongle/Tekkub) |
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| 19:48.33 | *** part/#wowwiki Zizanzu_ (n=Zizanzu@d81b0aa080-b73.monet.no) |
| 20:03.27 | *** join/#wowwiki kadrahil (i=webfreak@fallingsnow.net) |
| 20:04.07 | Kirkburn | Hmm, I want to see if banned users can edit their talk pages |
| 20:04.29 | Kirkburn | But we lack Voluspa >< |
| 20:06.00 | Kalroth | lol |
| 20:06.04 | Kalroth | Ban me, Kirk! |
| 20:06.23 | Kalroth | I'll go post goatse pictures on my talk page |
| 20:06.33 | kadrahil | :X |
| 20:07.23 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Bornakk is borg - http://www.wowblues.com/us/bornakk-is-borg-2518020453.html |
| 20:13.28 | [NewsBot] | WoW Insider: First Illidan China kill by The Seven - http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/10/29/first-illidan-china-kill-by-the-seven/ |
| 20:15.55 | [NewsBot] | MMO Champion: Season 2 qualification, Focused Will, BG daily quests - http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=2018.0 |
| 20:18.14 | *** join/#wowwiki Gryphen (n=gryphon@71.216.187.10) |
| 20:18.14 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Gryphen] by ChanServ |
| 20:29.52 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Arcatraz Run - Did I do something wrong? - http://www.wowblues.com/us/arcatraz-run-did-i-do-something-wrong-2512086127.html |
| 20:37.21 | Kirkburn | Site timing out? |
| 20:37.41 | kadrahil | yeah |
| 20:37.49 | Olison | yeah |
| 20:37.59 | Olison | no, got through |
| 20:38.01 | kadrahil | wait, i lied |
| 20:38.05 | Olison | haha :D |
| 20:38.09 | kadrahil | :O |
| 20:38.11 | kadrahil | nice timing |
| 20:45.30 | [NewsBot] | WoW Insider: Blue Notes: Arena news - http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/10/29/blue-notes-arena-news/ |
| 20:53.52 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: The breaking news message - http://www.wowblues.com/us/the-breaking-news-message-2647288524.html |
| 20:57.22 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Heroic dailies vs BG dailies... - http://www.wowblues.com/us/heroic-dailies-vs-bg-dailies-2649578815.html |
| 21:04.22 | *** join/#wowwiki Bibi` (n=Boubouil@AVelizy-151-1-91-89.w86-205.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 21:05.25 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: You're wrong Slouken...(throttling) - http://www.wowblues.com/us/youre-wrong-sloukenthrottling-2647297573.html |
| 21:17.52 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Post deleted (Q about becoming a gm..?) - http://www.wowblues.com/us/post-deleted-q-about-becoming-a-gm-2649578837.html |
| 21:23.52 | pcj | why are you creating all those mediawiki pages kirkburn |
| 21:24.17 | *** join/#wowwiki sannse (n=me@wikimedia/pdpc.active.sannse) |
| 21:24.17 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o sannse] by ChanServ |
| 21:24.24 | Kirkburn | Not creating, editing |
| 21:24.32 | Kirkburn | Despite what it shows, yes |
| 21:24.39 | sannse | r |
| 21:24.43 | sannse | oops |
| 21:24.45 | *** mode/#wowwiki [-o sannse] by sannse |
| 21:24.47 | Kirkburn | Hey sannse :P |
| 21:24.54 | pcj | I see |
| 21:25.11 | sannse | 'lo |
| 21:25.45 | Kirkburn | pcj, basically I'm going through wikipedia special:allmessages list, and seeing what improvements can be made to wowwiki's |
| 21:27.23 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Error reading source feed. - http://www.wowblues.com/feed.xml |
| 21:33.52 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Blizzard, You've Broken Rogues. - http://www.wowblues.com/us/blizzard-youve-broken-rogues-2647287801.html |
| 21:36.17 | Zeal | lol@error |
| 21:36.48 | pcj | ugh http://www.wowwiki.com/User:Tc3driver TOC = fail |
| 21:37.23 | Zeal | wtb control over ToC |
| 21:38.56 | pcj | __NOTOC__, __TOC__, __FORCETOC__? |
| 21:39.34 | *** join/#wowwiki dok3Dal (n=dok@AStrasbourg-251-1-74-247.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 21:40.15 | Zeal | no, i mean in regards to styling, format and depth. |
| 21:40.33 | pcj | ah i see |
| 21:41.25 | [NewsBot] | WoW Insider: New cards and big tourneys at Darkmoon Faire Philly - http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/10/29/new-cards-and-big-tourneys-at-darkmoon-faire-philly/ |
| 21:44.41 | Zeal | pcj, you should be able to tell me this. how does .collapsible work? |
| 21:44.57 | pcj | Javascript |
| 21:44.59 | pcj | Hang on |
| 21:45.21 | Zeal | that much i know, i mean does it onyl work on tables, what's required to make it look right etc. |
| 21:45.46 | pcj | {| class="darktable collapsible" |
| 21:45.48 | pcj | For example |
| 21:46.23 | Zeal | yeah, but does it only work correctly on tables? :P |
| 21:46.35 | pcj | What else would you use it on :| |
| 21:46.55 | Zeal | a div.. |
| 21:47.02 | pcj | Ah, no |
| 21:47.12 | Zeal | darn : / |
| 21:47.26 | pcj | It collapses everything except the first row of the table |
| 21:47.32 | Zeal | i see. |
| 21:48.00 | pcj | What are you trying to do |
| 21:48.32 | Zeal | http://www.wowwiki.com/User:Zeal/Sandbox/Source:Timeline_%28unofficial%29 was going to make each date header collapsible. |
| 21:48.50 | Kirkburn | To style the toc, you can enclose it in divs and style that |
| 21:49.00 | pcj | Can't do it with tables? |
| 21:49.04 | pcj | @zeal |
| 21:49.05 | Kirkburn | As for depth, I think that is possible, but I forget how |
| 21:49.19 | Zeal | i could, but it'd wrong to do so :P |
| 21:49.46 | Zeal | and that's not what i meant Kirkburn. i mean like changing it to a list format, and styling the list as you see fit. isntead of it's crappy table. |
| 21:49.49 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Hardware sound acceleration is back - http://www.wowblues.com/us/hardware-sound-acceleration-is-back-2649795333.html |
| 21:50.02 | Zeal | horizontal toc ftw. |
| 21:50.04 | Zeal | :p |
| 21:50.07 | Kirkburn | heh |
| 21:50.37 | Kirkburn | I wanted to hide the Main Page header, but it doesn't work on the wowwiki custom skin >< |
| 21:50.38 | Zeal | would have thought the tooltip template showed the power of using lists correctly ;) |
| 21:50.44 | Zeal | lol |
| 21:50.49 | Kirkburn | Monobook, fine, the source code works, but not wowwiki |
| 21:50.54 | Zeal | weird |
| 21:51.04 | Kirkburn | Yeah, not quite sure what's up there |
| 21:51.34 | Zeal | can't you just hide it i nthe css? |
| 21:51.34 | pcj | What piece of code is it kirkburn |
| 21:51.46 | Kirkburn | The wowwiki skin doesn't have the <body class="mediawiki ns-0 ltr page-Main_Page"> for pages, it just shows <body class="ns-0 ltr"> :( ... annoying, I wanted to use it to hide the Main Page heading |
| 21:51.51 | Zeal | ie. #pageheader {display: none;} |
| 21:51.56 | Kirkburn | (copied from #wikia) |
| 21:51.58 | pcj | ah |
| 21:52.11 | Kirkburn | But how can the skin directly affect the source code? |
| 21:52.21 | pcj | what do you mean |
| 21:52.27 | pcj | It does |
| 21:52.38 | Zeal | aye |
| 21:52.49 | Zeal | skins customises the code too. |
| 21:53.04 | Kirkburn | Yes, er, I recall using the word "how" in that question :P |
| 21:53.18 | Zeal | in the skin's files somewhere :P |
| 21:53.24 | pcj | Well, you can do it via JS kirkburn |
| 21:53.29 | Kirkburn | No, just no :P |
| 21:53.43 | Zeal | lol |
| 21:53.44 | Kirkburn | I want it to be done properly :) |
| 21:54.03 | Kirkburn | Monobook and the new skin will be fine for it, just need to get wowwiki updated somehow |
| 21:54.22 | pcj | Move [[Main Page]] to [[<span class="MPHeader">Main Page</span>]] |
| 21:54.57 | Zeal | just chuck it in the css "#top h1.firstHeading { display: none; }" |
| 21:55.05 | pcj | That would be for all pages |
| 21:55.15 | Zeal | oh, i thought that's what he wanted :P |
| 21:55.17 | pcj | no |
| 21:55.25 | Kirkburn | body.page-Main_Page h1.firstHeading { display:none; } |
| 21:58.06 | Zeal | where would you put your little hint message then? :P |
| 21:58.20 | Kirkburn | The banner just under the logo :) |
| 21:58.40 | Kirkburn | And have that rotate once a minute |
| 21:59.24 | pcj | Kirkburn, can't you add something to the main page itself that would take it out? |
| 21:59.24 | Zeal | lol, kk. |
| 21:59.33 | Kirkburn | pcj, nope :( |
| 21:59.41 | Zeal | with css3 you could do it :P |
| 22:00.02 | Kirkburn | I want to have random messages appear, but don't know a way with what we have atm |
| 22:00.51 | pcj | You could do it not random but new each minute :P |
| 22:01.20 | Zeal | hm. |
| 22:01.32 | pcj | Looks like second, actually |
| 22:01.54 | Kirkburn | pcj, oh? |
| 22:02.11 | Kirkburn | Wait, I just said that |
| 22:02.35 | pcj | Creative use of {{CURRENTTIMESTAMP}} and {{#expr:}} will get results |
| 22:02.48 | Zeal | hehe |
| 22:03.24 | Gryphen | req random extension |
| 22:04.08 | Kirkburn | I think wikipedia use that in some fashion |
| 22:04.33 | Kirkburn | On http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Recentchangestext&action=edit |
| 22:04.52 | Kirkburn | By which I mean, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Recent_changes_article_requests&action=edit |
| 22:05.26 | [NewsBot] | WoW Insider: PTR Notes: BG Daily = 400 honor, Focused Will and Elemental under consideration - http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/10/29/ptr-notes-bg-daily-400-honor-focused-will-and-elemental-unde/ |
| 22:05.33 | pcj | Looks like they have an extension for current minute tho |
| 22:05.49 | pcj | Shouldn't be too hard to make it close to that tho |
| 22:06.21 | Kirkburn | We don't have current minute? |
| 22:06.23 | Zeal | same at the helpful tips thingy, with day of the week. |
| 22:06.27 | Zeal | *as |
| 22:06.31 | pcj | http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Variables |
| 22:06.35 | pcj | Doesn't list it, haven't tried it |
| 22:06.43 | Kirkburn | oh, I see |
| 22:06.59 | pcj | Yeah, doesn't work |
| 22:07.11 | Kirkburn | The template? |
| 22:07.16 | pcj | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:CURRENTMINUTE |
| 22:07.39 | pcj | Won't work either :P |
| 22:07.55 | pcj | Wait yes it will :| |
| 22:08.17 | Kirkburn | oh? |
| 22:08.25 | pcj | http://www.wowwiki.com/Template:CURRENTMINUTE |
| 22:08.42 | Kirkburn | Awesome, a little project to work on then :) |
| 22:09.02 | Kirkburn | Might start it later, or tomorrow |
| 22:09.37 | pcj | Shouldn't be too hard to do |
| 22:09.43 | pcj | Would just need the messages |
| 22:09.51 | Kirkburn | Aye, on my todo list :P |
| 22:10.33 | Kirkburn | One year ago we had no dynamic stuff on the Main Page >< |
| 22:10.34 | Zeal | well you might want a second expression between min and what you plan to display, unless you plan to have 60 things. |
| 22:10.40 | pcj | duh |
| 22:10.47 | Kirkburn | And I mean literally nothing changed from day to day |
| 22:10.49 | pcj | Just don't make it mod 60 |
| 22:11.04 | Kirkburn | WHat does mod 60 do |
| 22:11.10 | pcj | modular division |
| 22:11.17 | pcj | {{CURRENTMINUTE}} / 60 |
| 22:11.18 | [NewsBot] | pcj meant: http://www.wowwiki.com/Template:CURRENTMINUTE |
| 22:11.20 | pcj | returns the remainder |
| 22:11.35 | Kirkburn | Ah, okay |
| 22:12.01 | pcj | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulo_operation |
| 22:12.10 | Zeal | hm.. doesn't seem to be changing, stuck on 9 :S |
| 22:12.37 | pcj | bah &action=purge |
| 22:13.29 | Kirkburn | It doesn't have to reliably update, so long as it does :P |
| 22:13.52 | pcj | http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Template:CURRENTMINUTE&action=purge will always update it |
| 22:13.58 | pcj | I think the template call will update it too |
| 22:14.05 | pcj | Just normal browsing doesn't do it |
| 22:14.05 | Kirkburn | Hopefully |
| 22:14.07 | Zeal | hopefully it will, yeah. |
| 22:16.15 | Kirkburn | Now we have 3 featured dailies, 2 news boxes, 1 notice (and one announcement) |
| 22:16.30 | pcj | Hooray |
| 22:16.58 | Kirkburn | Going to see about adding another temporary "news" box, for PTR info, and rotating notices |
| 22:17.22 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: What I like about brooms... - http://www.wowblues.com/us/what-i-like-about-brooms-2649578924.html |
| 22:20.20 | Zeal | i only show the wowwiki news box anyways ;) |
| 22:20.56 | pcj | yeah, you can thank me for adding the save state part of it later |
| 22:21.45 | Zeal | lol, nice |
| 22:21.52 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Change color for purple items to diff color? - http://www.wowblues.com/us/change-color-for-purple-items-to-diff-color-2649798751.html |
| 22:22.26 | Zeal | what's next, we can reshuffle and order the boxes and change column layout? ;) |
| 22:22.43 | pcj | lol |
| 22:23.19 | pcj | that would be kind of cool though, make wowwiki the google news of WoW news |
| 22:23.38 | Zeal | aye |
| 22:24.38 | Kirkburn | That would be ... difficult |
| 22:24.48 | pcj | kirkburn runs from challenges :o |
| 22:24.53 | pcj | coward |
| 22:25.00 | Kirkburn | I run from javascript! |
| 22:25.16 | Zeal | hm.. seems i may have finally lost worldoflorecraft.com |
| 22:25.27 | Kirkburn | Where could the PTR news box go? |
| 22:25.50 | Kirkburn | Basically a box for links to PTR content |
| 22:25.59 | Kirkburn | Patch notes, instance pages, etc |
| 22:26.42 | Zeal | well i don't like it how it is atm. left is a few large content boxes, right is lots of little ones. |
| 22:26.56 | Zeal | bit one sided, espeically when you stop hiding. |
| 22:27.03 | Zeal | *start :S |
| 22:27.21 | pcj | I really think selected article index could be broken up |
| 22:27.34 | Zeal | Portals! |
| 22:27.47 | Kirkburn | <Insult>! |
| 22:29.11 | Zeal | :p |
| 22:29.16 | Kirkburn | Limitations are: it has to be simple and easily updated, and the ad must be above the fold, and |
| 22:29.25 | Kirkburn | And, er, good |
| 22:30.06 | Kirkburn | How could the article index be split? |
| 22:30.38 | pcj | <+Zeal> Portals! |
| 22:30.45 | pcj | Just link the major pages |
| 22:31.12 | Kirkburn | Those are the major pages :P |
| 22:31.40 | Kirkburn | Seriously, it's like impossible to cut them down |
| 22:32.04 | Zeal | Problem is, the ww structure sucks pcj, there are no "major pages" ;) |
| 22:33.28 | Zeal | hm, .mobi is pretty cheap. |
| 22:33.33 | Kirkburn | You suck. |
| 22:33.40 | Kirkburn | :) |
| 22:33.50 | Zeal | lol |
| 22:33.58 | Zeal | why is .tv and .cc so expensive. |
| 22:34.12 | Kirkburn | Cause only companies with lots of money want them |
| 22:34.18 | Zeal | ".tv is the domain extension for Tuvalu. Due it's popularity with the media and tv-fansites it is open to all." |
| 22:34.19 | Zeal | rofl |
| 22:34.36 | Zeal | did not know it was for a country :P |
| 22:35.06 | Zeal | ".cc is the domain extension for the Cocos Islands. .cc is often used when the preferred .com or .net is unavailable." |
| 22:36.11 | Kirkburn | *sigh*, I need reasons to leave the house |
| 22:36.11 | pcj | http://www.wowwiki.com/Special:Contributions/Acespades77 kirkburn, ban |
| 22:37.26 | Zeal | wow, he even provided a link to his community, so helpful. |
| 22:37.52 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Help for Leo - http://www.wowblues.com/us/help-for-leo-2650558860.html |
| 22:38.07 | *** join/#wowwiki Sky2042_afk (n=Sky2042@c-76-105-227-156.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 22:38.07 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v Sky2042_afk] by ChanServ |
| 22:38.39 | Zeal | hey Sky2042_afk |
| 22:40.17 | Sky2042_afk | hihi |
| 22:40.27 | Sky2042_afk | or byebye, as it were. :P |
| 22:41.12 | Zeal | pfft :p |
| 22:45.25 | [NewsBot] | WoW Insider: An American player in the EU realms - http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/10/29/an-american-player-in-the-eu-realms/ |
| 22:52.34 | Kirkburn | lol - http://www.jibjab.com/starring_you/receipt/2232917 |
| 22:54.03 | Zeal | lol |
| 22:54.26 | *** join/#wowwiki A2` (i=A2line@ANancy-257-1-3-136.w90-33.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 22:57.32 | Zeal | think i'll have some fun in photoshop, bored. |
| 22:57.37 | Kirkburn | :O |
| 23:02.04 | *** join/#wowwiki Bagginsww (n=Baggins@cpe-66-91-120-70.hawaii.res.rr.com) |
| 23:02.04 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Bagginsww] by ChanServ |
| 23:13.22 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Guild Bank ownership scenarios! - http://www.wowblues.com/us/guild-bank-ownership-scenarios-2649578832.html |
| 23:33.26 | [NewsBot] | WoW Insider: Last few days for Headless Horseman farming - http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/10/29/last-few-days-for-headless-horseman-farming/ |
| 23:37.19 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: The Virtue of AV weekend and 15 minute AVs - http://www.wowblues.com/us/the-virtue-of-av-weekend-and-15-minute-avs-2650558854.html |
| 23:45.20 | [NewsBot] | WoWBlues: Interface action failed because of an AddOn - http://www.wowblues.com/us/interface-action-failed-because-of-an-addon-2518903044.html |
| 23:58.19 | Zeal | can't beleive i'm willingly editing wikipedia x_x |
| 23:59.11 | pcj | You aren't actually editing wikipedia, wikipedia is editing you to make you think you're editing it |
