IRC log for #wowwiki on 20071029

00:00.38Bagginswwwell then you have to break down what each domain is
00:00.55Bagginswwwar is offensive defense isn't it?
00:01.11Zealcan be
00:01.19Bagginswwin other words it can be used for protection
00:01.28Bagginswwso can healing
00:01.34Zealthen defeats the point of proection existing :p
00:01.45Bagginswwlet me see how its broken down
00:02.15Bagginswwprotection aura, divine protector. are basic spells in it.
00:02.18Zealor you'd have to dig down to another level of classification.. which is my point, they should pick some proper build blocks and stop screwing around.
00:02.27Bagginswwelune has those spells too
00:02.35Bagginswwbut she's also built around many domains
00:02.44Bagginswwthere is alot of cross over
00:02.57Zeali know, but at the basic level, you should have none.
00:03.10Bagginswwthe problem is alot of these things are based on early DnD stuff and even myth and legendary domain concepts :p
00:03.20Bagginswwlike tarot card like stuff ;p
00:03.41Bagginswwbelive me since when did human myth or legend ever make sense?
00:03.48Bagginswwdifferent people with different beliefs
00:03.56Zeali've been trying to wrap my head around Ah! My Godddess (Anime/Manga) lore lately.
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00:04.22Bagginswweastern mythology will drive you nutz :)
00:04.42Bagginswwthat's what makes final fantasy the movie so weird
00:04.53Bagginswwa weird combination of eastern concepts and wester scifi
00:05.24Zealwell it's mostly based in norse mythology.
00:06.37Bagginswwbut with no eastern twists?
00:06.53BagginswwI find alot of anime will take from a western idea but blend in eastern
00:07.29Zealonly eastern stuff is the everyday life and cutlure of japan.
00:08.04Bagginswwsurprised they don't have any buddhists or whatever in it.
00:08.25Bagginswwtaoists, and other eastern religions.
00:09.31Bagginswwalright zeal, far seers, get the Summon spirit allies"
00:09.48Bagginswwits exactly like the summon nature's ally
00:09.53Bagginswwexcept they come from spiritual connection
00:09.59Zealwhat type of magic?
00:10.01Bagginswwrather than specifically nature
00:10.11Bagginswwwell shamanism is its own magic type
00:10.13Bagginswwin the rpg
00:10.19Zealah, kk.
00:10.34Bagginswwboth are nature, but nature is nature, and shamanism is spiritual nature
00:10.47Bagginsww[[nature]] please work :p
00:10.48[NewsBot]Bagginsww meant:
00:11.08Bagginswwnew domain
00:11.12Bagginswwfrom the hpg
00:11.18Bagginswwadded to far seers
00:12.05Bagginswweven arcane has its ties to nature of course, just more corrupted nature
00:12.40Bagginswwwhy mages can summon elementals, just like shamans, but they go about it a different way
00:13.09Zealaye baggins
00:13.37Bagginswwwell, teldrassyl is a special case. as far as we know they didn't use arcane to create it
00:13.54Bagginswwand something is corrupting it
00:14.25Zealthey didn't, thought it was said staghelm and his nubs augmented the growth with arance magic.
00:14.31Zeal*they didn't?
00:14.32Bagginswwoh he did?
00:14.36BagginswwI don't remember honestly
00:14.40Zeali could be wrong.
00:14.49Bagginswwbut we know that druids can accelerate growth through nature magic
00:14.53Zeali just know whatever he did, i blame him :P
00:15.05Bagginswwhe's either at fault or he's being framed
00:15.20Bagginswwhe's weird one
00:15.28Bagginswwhe's definitely a rude bastard even if he's not at fault ;)
00:15.36Bagginswwxenophobic prick
00:15.59ZealTyrande really needs to kick his ass.
00:16.02Bagginswwbut ya
00:16.11Bagginsww[[Green Havens]]
00:16.12[NewsBot]Bagginsww meant:
00:16.15Zealhopefully malfurion will at soem point :P
00:16.39Bagginswwya I'd like to konw if he really backstabbed malfurion or if that's just common belief.
00:17.08Bagginswwor is he innocent and possibly black dragons or something else behind it?
00:17.17Bagginswwold gods or whatever
00:18.08Zealmany many question that still need answers in wow ^_^
00:18.12Bagginswwanother possibility that he's possessed and not actually in control of all his actions
00:18.33Bagginswwin other words he might actually be innocent, but an unowing pawn.
00:18.41Zealthis were we see a mini c'thun on the back of his neck controlling him.. lol
00:18.46Bagginswwheh heh
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00:19.36Bagginswwhe must have been a  reasonably nice guy at one time, loss of his son may have influenced how he is now too
00:20.03Bagginswwbut we get mixed stories on his character from different people and sources :p
00:22.55Zealhe seemed like a typical arrogant and xenophobic nelf of old in a position of power to me, still seems that way.
00:25.22Zealthough mild compared to illidan :P
00:25.42Zealsimilar to that guy i forget in wota.
00:25.48Zealbut not as cowardly.
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00:31.37BagginswwI never got to experience his involvment in the shifting sands war
00:32.09Zealplenty to read on it.
00:32.26Zealand only seen the video of the events myself.
00:34.02Bagginswwsaw the vidoe but you can't read the text very well :p
00:34.34Zeal"Arcane magic is made possible by the energies Norgannon gave to Malygos, who in turn gave them to the Well of Eternity." Malygos didn't do anything to the well, was the titans themselves no? :S
00:36.36Bagginswwwhat you quoting?
00:36.51[NewsBot]Zeal meant:
00:37.35Bagginswwhmm I didn't make that page :p
00:37.51[NewsBot]Bagginsww meant:
00:38.21BagginswwI don't see anything about malygos
00:39.25Zealrecall it being specifically said as the titans.
00:39.46Bagginswwand as for norgannon we'd have to check S&L
00:39.55Bagginswwthat's the main source of titan info
00:40.18[NewsBot]Bagginsww meant:
00:40.24Bagginswwnothing there either as far as I can tell
00:40.34Bagginswwthat has most of the transcript from s&L
00:41.13Bagginswwnope nothing in S&L
00:41.27BagginswwI think someone just assumed it because Malygos is the aspect of magic
00:41.59Zealremember arguing with someone on a forum because they wouldn't conceed to the fact that arcance is inherently corrupting, and that the degree simply depends on the person.
00:42.08Arcane_NBI need to adjust my alert filter.  The word Arcane just pops up to often in here
00:43.24Bagginswwunless your one of those strange
00:43.26Zeali don't like the way you're handling the elements in relation to arcande. but i need to read some mroe first.
00:43.34Bagginsww[[Uncorrupted Warlock]]
00:43.35[NewsBot]Bagginsww meant:
00:43.46Bagginswwor [[Uncorrupted Necromancer]]
00:43.47[NewsBot]Bagginsww meant:
00:45.37Zealaye, no degree is a degree too :p
00:45.59Zealall about the ability, will etc. of the weilder.
00:46.41Bagginswwnow it works
00:46.57Zealhm.. you;re reworking the structure off the magic articles completely right? cos it's a bit of a roundabout atm, not making much sense.
00:47.34Bagginswwthe magic article?
00:47.40Bagginswwnot my article :p
00:48.20Bagginswwlin the arcane?
00:48.25Zealand by that point, the meaning and flow of where the article is going is lost.
00:48.30Zealyeah, same with fire too i think.
00:48.40Bagginswwschool page isn't my work
00:48.44Zeali know
00:48.56Zealthat's why i'm saying the whole lot needs restructuring :P
00:49.15Bagginswwthose are just external links added to the page
00:49.31Bagginswwthe rpg isn't actually very specific about sub categories
00:49.35Bagginswwarcane is just arcane
00:49.51Bagginswwyou'd have to go to the individual spells to find out what kind of discriptors they have
00:49.59Bagginswwand that would be a lot of work
00:50.26Bagginswwthere is no huge article about frost, fire, fel, etc
00:50.29Bagginswwwell fell ya
00:50.36Zealwell i take my understanding of it from the novels. arcane is used to conjour elementals and manipulate the elements. no sub-categories.
00:50.36Bagginswwdidn't mean to type that one up
00:50.59Bagginswwwell it has subcategores elemental is split into four subcategories
00:51.12Bagginswwfrost/water, fire, earth, and air
00:51.25Bagginswwa mage can summon all four
00:51.31Bagginswwbut generally only summons water
00:51.36Bagginswwas the others are harder to control
00:51.49Bagginswwand summoning air often turns into those corrupt mana surges
00:52.08Zealand from the rpg mage class, mages are the oens that specilize in the use of manipulating the elements, conjuror is self explanitory. thne you have the the further specialisations of the "mancers"
00:52.16Bagginswwbtw I'll probably expand that article to include the rpg schools
00:52.41Bagginswwsummoning is a subschool of conjuration
00:52.53Bagginswwconjuration includes the elemental summoning spells iirc
00:53.00Bagginswwconjuraiton is a school
00:53.04Zealyeah, air doesn't seem to be one they choose, where's that mana surge part from?
00:53.12BagginswwMG and MoM
00:53.20Zealis it on the wiki at all?
00:53.20Bagginswwwell specifically MG
00:53.26Zealcba to pull stuff out :P
00:53.29Bagginsww[[Man Surge]]
00:53.30[NewsBot]Bagginsww meant:
00:53.36Bagginsww[[Mana surge]]
00:53.38[NewsBot]Bagginsww meant:
00:53.41Zealnp ;)
00:54.04Bagginswwthe bit aobut mana surges possibly being related to all elements is from TBC
00:54.16Bagginswwspecifically Arcane elementals
00:54.36Zealhm.. [[Mana Surge]] needs merging?
00:54.38Bagginswwyou end up having to summon these four elementals one of each type and they end up being formed into one
00:54.43Bagginswwnah npc specific article
00:54.55Bagginswwmana surge is general nickname for all the types
00:55.18Zeali'd probably redirect tbh, both seem genric
00:56.00Bagginswwnah MG uses mana surge as a category for the type
00:56.12Bagginswwwhere as in the game you have dozens of types of mana surges
00:56.22BagginswwMana Surge is just one of them
00:57.27Bagginswwwiki policy currenlty is to have mob names spelled in caps liek they are in game. Where as if npc belongs to a larger category, the larger category is in lower case
00:57.31Zealboth articles are generic, they encompass all types.
00:57.43Bagginswwthe Mana Surge article is for a specific mob
00:57.48Bagginswwcalled "Mana Surge"
00:57.51Zealwell it's not written that way.
00:58.11Zealas it's talking about multiple different types of them.
00:58.22Bagginswwit says "its a basic type"
00:58.32BagginswwMG was split into two groups
00:59.11BagginswwMana surge article, then there was "Mana surge" and the "Mana Burst" or something like that
00:59.20Bagginswwboth under the same heading
00:59.32Bagginswwand the general information about both
00:59.41Zealnot seeing that on either..
00:59.55Bagginswwya you do, you just don't have the original book to see the context ;p
01:00.03BagginswwIt was like this
01:00.16Bagginswwthen general information
01:00.21Bagginswwabout Mana surges in general
01:00.29ZealMS is talking about multiple types of them. ms is talking about multiple types of them and it just one paragraph, which actually is onyl a rewrite of the same paragraph in the other article.
01:00.50Zealthey need to be reworked or merged.
01:00.57Bagginswwwhat its missing is the level information
01:01.02Bagginswwand where you see the mob
01:01.53Bagginswwlike most mob pages
01:02.04Bagginswwsomeone needs to add the lorely (sp?) bot to it
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01:02.16Zealswitch round what i said actually >_;
01:03.06Zealok.. the title i backwards then. because the nPC should be Mana Surge, current it's Mana surge
01:03.17Zealbased on what you jsut told me.
01:03.42Zealmaking me confuse myself.. lol
01:03.44BagginswwThe mob is Mana Surge
01:03.50Bagginswwall mobs are in caps
01:03.51Zeali know
01:04.07Bagginswwhowever if an article encompases more than just a single mob
01:04.17Bagginswwthen we use a lower case title
01:04.23Bagginswwas is used in the source material
01:04.25Zealsigh i hate media wiki
01:05.17KirkburnIt's more a problem with WoW and encyclopedias
01:05.25Zealfucking get rid of the category namespace, merge category functionality into all namespaces.. makes sense for Mana surge to be a category, not an article. isntead it's an article about a category with no corresponding category.. -_-
01:06.01Zeali know.
01:06.04Bagginswwactually its supposed to have a category
01:06.14Bagginswwit does
01:06.31Bagginswwand yes for some reason categories are always capped
01:06.37Kirkburnwhich, humourously should be "Mana surges" :P
01:06.41KirkburnBlame Mikk
01:06.48KirkburnIt's only fair, it is his fault
01:07.08Bagginswwat this point it would take alot of clean up :p
01:07.12Bagginswwfor multiple categories
01:07.21KirkburnThe category policy was updated earlier to say sentence case, bots should be able to do it over time
01:07.28Zeali swear the mobs weren't in that cat when i jsut looked..
01:07.33Bagginswwthey are :p
01:07.36BagginswwI haven't chagned anything
01:07.45Bagginswwbut alot of things need to be added to that category
01:07.45Zealoh wait, they aren't
01:07.56Zealonyl MS is, the others are missing.
01:08.02Zealcos they're on bot request.
01:08.07Zealthat makes more sense..
01:09.21Bagginswwpersonally if I was in controll all npc mobs would be written lower case
01:09.25Bagginswwlike they are in the quest text
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01:10.40Zealif i was in control, there'd be an NPC namespace ;)
01:10.47BagginswwWe don't write, "Dark Iron Dwarf" even though there is a mob by that name lol
01:10.57Bagginswwwhich means?
01:11.04Zeali would write it like that ;)
01:11.30Bagginswwwrite it like what? i'm confused
01:11.38ZealDark Iron Dwarf
01:11.57Bagginswwdwarf is always decapitalized in written text
01:11.58Zealand [[NPC:Dark Iron Dwarf]]
01:12.05Bagginswwok I like that
01:12.09Bagginswwsame thing we do for quests
01:12.32Bagginswwthen we could have the main articles lower case if its a lore info.
01:12.36Zealnot going to go into the argument, but because it's faction + race so i'd keep it capitilized in all cases.
01:12.50Bagginswwraces are always lower case
01:12.57Bagginswwin the quest text
01:13.01Bagginswwand books
01:13.03Zealas i said, not going into the argument ;)
01:13.16Bagginswwwe don't even capitalize our own race
01:13.35Kirkburniron dwarves is a complicated one
01:13.38Bagginswwwhich is funny if you look at scifi lke star wars
01:13.48Bagginswwhumans are lower case, but every other race is caps
01:13.58KirkburnIt sounds like they should be capitalised, but then, it's like night elf
01:13.58Zealdon't worry baggins, should Kirkburn wish to, he could explain to you on my behalf, even if he doesn't agree.
01:13.59Bagginswwwe do capitalize are ethnic groups
01:14.36BagginswwKirkburn Ironforge dwarf is usually capitalized because Ironforge is a place :p
01:14.38BagginswwI think
01:14.54BagginswwDark Iron and Wildhammer is usually capitalized too
01:14.57Kirkburn[Faction] [race]
01:15.09Bagginsww*our ethnic groups :p
01:15.52BagginswwStrangely Neanderthal is always caps
01:15.56KirkburnWildhammer is a specific grouping ... are they "hill dwarves"?
01:16.08Bagginswwyes a type of hill dwarves
01:16.16Bagginswwalot of sub-clans too
01:16.47Bagginswwand Forsaken is very odd, its capped or non-capped
01:16.49KirkburnAh, there you go, so, Wildhammer dwarves are hill dwarves, [Faction] [race] are [species]
01:16.55Zeal3 clans, named by their ruling family. multiple families. no?
01:16.56Bagginswwbest I can tell depending if you speak of the race versus the faction
01:17.08Bagginsww3 main clams
01:17.23Bagginswwbut each family name is usually a sub-clan
01:17.34Bagginswwsill called clans for easy of name :p
01:17.45Bagginsww*ease of name
01:17.55Zealah, kk.
01:18.37Bagginswwother confirmed clans include Stormpike clan and Stonefist clan
01:18.38KirkburnForsaken should always be capitalised imo, because it's not just undead humans (now, certainly)
01:18.56Bagginswwkirkburn the biggest issue is not all forsaken belong to the faction
01:19.02Bagginswwsome are independent
01:19.11Bagginswwlike Lord Barth
01:19.24KirkburnI thought Forsaken was their faction name?
01:19.37KirkburnOtherwise I thought they were just independent undead
01:19.38BagginswwForsaken is the faction name for the ones in the Horde
01:19.55BagginswwBut Barth left the faction
01:20.07Bagginswwand joined the Argent Dawn
01:20.20BagginswwHe despises the Forsaken
01:20.30Bagginswwconsiders them evil
01:20.44BagginswwArgent Dawn do not like the Forsaken as well btw
01:21.39Bagginswwbut ya all forsakena re independent undead but not all indepenent undead are forsaken. Forsaken are always those half-zombie like humans and elves
01:21.57Bagginswwthe faction itself can include alot more types of undead
01:22.39Bagginswwbasically you could have an independent abomination
01:22.50Bagginswwits never going to be a 'forsaken'
01:23.07Bagginswwit oculd be a member of the Forsaken faction however
01:23.23Bagginswwyes this is as bad as the whole lordaeron disambig :p
01:23.46Bagginswwbut ya its easier just to type it out as Forsaken and forget about it LOL
01:24.23Bagginswwbut in that case it would be wrong to call Barth a Forsaken, as he has definitely left the organizaiton
01:25.06BagginswwZeal back to the clans
01:25.13Bagginswwapparently Ironforge clan was the original clan
01:25.19Bagginswwand broke down into the other 3
01:25.33ZealHumans in Warcraft are based on humans and are very similar to other fantasy world's takes on humans. Blizzard have taken their usual appraoch however, throwing in twists to set Humans apart from other fantasy Humans.
01:25.44Zealaye, that's right.
01:26.15Bagginswwthey are not important at this point for the most part.
01:26.25BagginswwAs Bronzebeard rules the city now
01:26.38Bagginswwactually the Bronzebeard has rules the Ironforge Clan for generations
01:26.45Zealalways was Bronzebeards anyways.
01:26.48BagginswwBut they are a far more mimprtant clan
01:26.58Thrae"Such as, instead of being more of the average race with average strengths and weaknesses, in World of Warcraft, the Human race just...well, they just suck. But everyone picks them anyway out of familiarity."
01:27.19KirkburnZeal about the site ... nice design, the + and - buttons do nothing though
01:27.22Bagginswwin the rpg, humans and orcs both were the average races
01:27.36Zeali know Kirkburn, not written the script for that yet :p
01:27.39Bagginswwthat was they both didn't ahve "racial classes"
01:27.47KirkburnThe preview bar is cool
01:27.54Bagginswwbut they added optional racial class for orcs with the Horde Player's Guide
01:28.06KirkburnOoh, and it reloads
01:28.12BagginswwRacial Class is a totally different kind of class that I haven't put into the wiki yet
01:28.27Bagginswwbut think of it as someone studying their ethnic background to become better at who they are.
01:28.46Zealif you mean the website reloading, that's just soemthing i do for dev purposes, so i don't have to hit refresh ;)
01:28.49Bagginswwlike training in their language, traditions etc
01:29.12BagginswwCreature class is similar but for monster like creatures
01:29.32Zeali get ya
01:29.32Bagginswwlet's take half-orc racial class for example
01:29.40Bagginswwa or rather half-ogre
01:29.59Bagginswwhalf-ogre that takes that class, will gain more abilities shared with the ogre heritage
01:30.10Bagginswwhis blood becomes more ogre-like
01:30.16ZealM&S pressed apple juice pwns, but it gets really bitty near the bottom : /
01:30.26Bagginswwand he starts having the growth pattern of an ogre
01:30.46Bagginswwnot nearly as strong mind you
01:30.52Bagginswwwhereas an ogre can grow for every level
01:31.05Bagginswwhalf-ogre can only grow up to the 5th level
01:31.34Bagginswwwhere as most races are at their maximum height and weight when they begin
01:31.36Zealso basically spenting points in learning aspects of your race, rather than learning to develop a your actual class.
01:32.12Bagginswwit opens up some pretty nice abilities you couldn't get out of a standard class
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01:32.24Zealwonder if you learn enough for dwarves you would regress? ;)
01:32.26Bagginswwtechnically I think humans should get a racial class too. :p
01:32.33Bagginswwzeal ya
01:32.43Bagginswwthey learn a stronger stone cunning
01:32.48Bagginswwand stone shape
01:32.55[NewsBot]WoW Insider: Blood Sport: Rock, paper, scissors? -
01:33.01Bagginswwtitan heritage stuff
01:33.19Zealprobably that part i'm most looking forward to in wota
01:33.24Zealmore dwarf-titan info.
01:33.27Bagginswwstone cunnign basically being inherient knowledge of strengths and weaknesses in building materials
01:33.39Zeal*wotlk :P
01:34.27Zealwonder if that's how they'll introduct inscriptions.
01:34.41Bagginswworc racial class goes more into demonic, shamanistic heritage
01:34.54Bagginswweven though they are no longer demonic some of the abilities are still in their blood
01:34.57Bagginswwlike rage
01:35.34Bagginswwthere was basic bits of that built into the race's basic starting skills, but racial class takes it further
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01:35.46Zealwouldn't it be funky if orcs had ended up stuck with a curse similar to the blood andle in w40k?
01:35.55Bagginswwso ya humans have racial skills, just no racial class :p]
01:36.10BagginswwI don't know anything about warhammer sorry
01:37.14Zealah, basically they can become consumed with a blood rage, and they always have to tread a fine line, go over it and they snap and are usually just thrown into the battle at the front because they turn into pure unstopable killing machines until they die :p
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01:37.30Zealatleast soemthing along those lines, i could be a bit off.
01:37.45AFKDuTempeteI has returnededed!
01:39.56DuTempete<insert dog smiley> Kirkburn
01:40.21BagginswwIse needs a grrfiend
01:40.56DuTempeteawwww, I'd hook you up with one of my friends, byt they don't believe in the interweb.
01:41.07Kirkburn<insert dog smiley> DuTempete ;)
01:41.17BagginswwLOL I don't believe in web dating, ;)
01:41.26DuTempeteIt's not so bad. :P
01:41.33BibiPICS ?
01:41.41DuTempeteLOL BIBI IS FRENCH
01:41.47Bibithat was mean. :(
01:41.50Bagginswwweb dating is like long distance dating
01:41.51KirkburnGawd, please no pix
01:41.56ZealTits or GTFO? hehe, j/k.
01:41.59KirkburnOf Bibi
01:42.10DuTempeteI didn't ask for pics :P
01:42.28Zealanyways /signed Bagginsww
01:42.47Bagginswwsigned what?
01:42.49DuTempeteit's worse when web dating IS long distance dating, bagginsww :P
01:42.54DuTempeteyour petition for a gf :P
01:43.14BagginswwI was afraid he was offering to be my girlfriend :p
01:43.35Bagginswweither that or he was agreeing that web dating is like long distance dating
01:43.41Zealplus done the online thing, its not enough and sadly i have a habbit of picking up the foreign ones, so nothing becomes of it.
01:43.57DuTempeteyeah, the foreign ones are a pain in the ass...
01:44.00Zeali was signing that i need a girlfriend too ;)
01:44.06BibiI dated a girl on internet once
01:44.09Bibibut it didn't last long
01:44.14KirkburnDamn foreigners :P
01:44.17Bibimy VISA got refused. :/
01:44.36Bagginswwbesides this day and age how do you know if they are real, or are just claiming to be who they aren
01:44.38Zeal2 american, 1 hawaiian, 1 uk. lol nothing became of it.
01:44.53KirkburnBagginsww, webcam helps
01:44.54BibiI tried dating Kirkburn but it didnt work well
01:45.00Zealwhat Kirkburn said, lol.
01:45.09Kirkburnyeah, I found out he was french :(
01:45.10Bagginswwwell I'm in hawaii, can't find anyone LOL
01:45.11Zeallol Bibi
01:45.16DuTempetepoor Kirkburn :(
01:45.28Bagginswwnah the problem is I'm too much of a nice guy... I end up being the friend :p
01:45.41KirkburnBut no mind, I found someone more suitable
01:45.49Zealwell i mentioned the hawaiian one to you Bagginsww, she was the oen that i was getting that info from for you.
01:46.00Bagginswwthe teacher?
01:46.18Zealteacher? student, though planning to become one, yeah.
01:46.22KirkburnIs there like a whole backstory to you two that I don't know?
01:46.31Zealbut shes after a native now anyways ;)
01:46.34DuTempeteoooh backstory!
01:46.53Zealrofl Kirkburn, nope, just talked outside ww when i left.
01:47.03KirkburnAww, I wanted gossip
01:47.03Zealunlike you, who was never on msn ;)
01:47.16BibiI wish I had enough money to move to hawaii for the rest of my life
01:47.19BibiBagginsww, give me money.
01:47.22KirkburnNot true, I'm always on MSN ... I just ... er ... answer for a very select few people
01:47.32Bibiacting like you're afk ?
01:47.34BibiI do that too
01:47.39Bagginswwwell you don't usually see it as a tourist, but there is such an anti-american movements here, and some hawaiians will scowl at you :p
01:47.41Bibialways online, pretty much never answering
01:47.52Zealnah, you were set to "show as offline" you told me ;)
01:47.54Bibidon't care, not american.
01:47.56BagginswwI didn't even know it was like this, LOL
01:48.08DuTempeteThat's what you get for going to school there.
01:48.09Bagginswwbibi its any foregner really
01:48.18Bagginswwnah its not everyone
01:48.26Bagginswwalot of people are very nice
01:48.34Bagginswwand actually don't liek the other organizations that are that way
01:48.48Zealthey're weary of foreigners is all, earn their respect and they're really kind people, or so i've been told.
01:48.52Bibii'd move to any random country where life is cheap and where the bandwith reach 10mbits
01:49.06Bagginswwbut ya there are organizations that blaim westerners for their troubles and want eveyrone to leave, its a minority within the minority really
01:49.36BagginswwYa Zeal like I said its not everyone, some are very very nice
01:49.52Bagginswwaccepted me in right from the start
01:49.57DuTempete<insert dog smiley> Kirkburn
01:50.02Zealthey just like to know you have good intentions for being there.
01:50.21Bagginswwbut like I said not all Hawaiians view politics the same way.
01:50.32Bagginswwsome are very happy to be Americans
01:50.54Bagginswwwell actually its probably the majority that are that way. as far as I know its the organizations that make up individual minorities
01:51.06Bagginswwthat are anti foreigners
01:51.37Zealit's like staghelm and his lackies vs. the rest of the night elves ;)
01:52.19Bagginswwthen there are those that would like soverenty back but historically konw that the soverein nation was made up of natives and naturalized citizens, and respect that.
01:53.01Bagginswwbut that's where the problem arises each organization has its own opinion of what sovereignity should mean
01:53.06Bagginswwand none of them agree
01:53.51DuTempeteI wonder what Kirkburn's opinion of foreighners is?
01:54.16KirkburnGenerally, good, but in certain cases, completely awesome.
01:54.30DuTempeteAh, well I think they're all trouble.
01:54.39BagginswwMy opinion is we are all part ofthe same earth, and cultural differences is cool.
01:54.42KirkburnWell, there's always got to be a troublemaker
01:55.10KirkburnActually, maybe that's not something to hope for :P
01:55.29DuTempeteYes, I prefer no trouble at all. :P
01:55.31BagginswwBut I like differences and history, its the reason I like anthropology :)
01:55.52BagginswwI don't like when differences are used to justify attacking another group :p
01:56.06DuTempeteDunno, attacking can be fun, Baggins...
01:56.41KirkburnHow rude!
01:56.47DuTempeteMeanie :(
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01:57.25DuTempeteI prefer to think of myself as not of any country at all.
01:57.46KirkburnFisker- and DuTempete ... the same person?
01:58.11KirkburnI was only poking you to point your attention towards all these wonderous chocolate prezzies I had for you, but cause you poked me back, I snarfled them all :P
01:58.34DuTempeteYou would have snarfled them anyway.  You can't restrain yourself around chocolate.
01:58.46KirkburnThis is true :P
01:58.53KirkburnUnless it's dark chocolate
01:59.01KirkburnOnly weirdos like that
01:59.25Zealdepends on the quallity, but on average it's nasty :/
01:59.38DuTempete<insert dog smiley> Kirkburn
01:59.44Bagginswwyou need ot acquire the taste for dark
01:59.56DuTempeteMeh, I've always had it, bagginsww.
02:00.01BagginswwI like it too
02:00.06BagginswwI like all chocalate
02:00.11Zealwhen it borders on tasting like "burnt" it's not nice, lol.
02:00.17DuTempeteDark chocolate + whiskey = teh win
02:00.19Kirkburn<insert Lindt chocolate dog smiley> DuTempete.
02:00.29Bagginswweven like occasional baking kind, even if that lacks sugar, LOL
02:00.32Zealchocolate + sambuca = yum.
02:00.53KirkburnChocolate = yum.
02:00.53Bagginswwsorry I don't drink so I wouldn't know LOL
02:01.03DuTempetesilly Baggins
02:01.17KirkburnYou'll die of thirst, y'know
02:01.20Zealstill pleased to say i've never been drunk
02:01.39BagginswwLoves root beer. Try out strange varieties when I find it.
02:01.42KirkburnDuTempete, we're surrounded by crazy people
02:01.50Zealbut when i do drink, i don't really hold back, drink what i like, but that's usually lots of spirits.
02:01.58DuTempeteKirkburn, are you sure we're not the crazy ones?
02:02.06Zealdon't like beer/larger
02:02.07KirkburnOh, wait ... er ...
02:02.11Zealcider is ok.
02:02.13BagginswwI'm temperate, LOL is that the term?
02:02.17DuTempeteyum, cider!
02:02.31Bagginswwnon fermented hot cider. Like that
02:02.36DuTempeteWoodchuck black and tan = teh win!
02:02.48KirkburnTemperate? You have deciduous forests and a medium amount of rain?
02:02.58BagginswwI do cook with wine or beer occasionally but that's the most I use it for LOL
02:03.32Zealbulmers gold-label, only from hereford. Thankfully i have relatives there and have been to their orchids before ^_^
02:03.41KirkburnAre you roleplaying an entire zone today, or have you been reading too many RPG books? :P
02:04.01BibiI don't even read.
02:04.04KirkburnOrchids? Orchards?
02:04.15DuTempeteas far as Bagginsww is concerned, there is no such thing as too many RPG books :P
02:04.16Zealyeah, that too kirk :p
02:04.30Bagginswwhow does one say I'm "Temperance"? that doesn't make sense, LOL.
02:04.40Zeali still can't get those last few Bagginsww : /
02:04.43DuTempeteyou're tempermental? :P
02:04.48Zealer.. MoM, WCRPG etc.
02:05.00Bagginswwwell considering they are out of print :p
02:05.11BagginswwI own the pdfs and the originals
02:05.17Bagginswwmy originals are back home
02:05.18DuTempeteI'm sure you have them, Baggins
02:05.18Zealwhat else.. M&M i think
02:05.31Zealdid manage to get APG though.
02:05.37Bagginswwgood job
02:05.46Zealget to see within temptation soon, yay.
02:05.58BagginswwHPG without APG is like having half the A&HC, :p
02:06.45Bagginswwlike I said MG isn't worth it, if your wanting lore. Its more mechanics than anything.
02:07.07Bagginswwsome of the articles are good, but like I siad I'll probably add them to wiki as I get time ;)
02:07.14Zealplus, getting banned put me off spending anymore money on the RPG ;)
02:07.27Zealfrom the forums, remember?
02:07.56Bagginswwnot that it matters, if they are caput now ;)
02:08.08BagginswwI mean how did they expect to last with such low print runs
02:08.09Zealmy fingers are crossed ;)
02:08.15DuTempeteSo, yeah, back on the topic of foreigners, yeah, i would totally date one, but only if I liked the country.
02:08.35Bagginswwto be honest I love the rpg books, but if I'd be pleased to have one last thing to spend money on LOL
02:08.42Bagginsww*one less
02:08.55Zealif i liked them and saw something becoming of it, sure, doesn't bother me.
02:09.00Bagginswwyou also need to be careful about the laws of the country they are from
02:09.06KirkburnYay foreigners!
02:09.13Zeallol Bagginsww
02:09.32DuTempeteWell, and if that foreigner was really sexy.
02:09.55Bibi[03:05:56] <Bagginsww> HPG without APG is like having half the A&HC, :p
02:10.09BibiAm I the only one who don't understand this kind of comment ?
02:10.09Zealon the same topic, current south park ep on paramount +1 is the future immigrants one ;)
02:10.17Bagginswwwell for exmaple a female who marries someoen from certain middle eastern countries will have a problem if they ever decide to visit that country,a nd theman decides to enforce the rules there
02:10.48Bagginswwespecially if they bring their kids
02:10.53Zealwell i once considered going to america, but decided i'd be happier living here.
02:11.00Zealso, that's my choice now.
02:11.20Bagginswwremember there are no cats in america, and the streets are made of cheese
02:11.30Zeali like cheese..
02:11.37DuTempeteSomebody has watched too many cartoons...
02:11.44Bagginswwwhat, that movie is a classic :p
02:11.51DuTempetewhere is here, Zeal?
02:11.55KirkburnBtw, Wensleydale cheese is damn tasty
02:11.59Zealdey tuk er jerbs!
02:12.13ZealEngland to be specific.
02:12.23DuTempeteAh, England is ok.
02:12.37BagginswwI needs to go on a journey of cheese discovery to where traditional non-processed cheese is made.
02:12.37Zealit's not france, so it's all good ;)
02:12.59Bagginswwtour de europe.
02:13.27Bagginswwbtw I tried limberger once...
02:13.28KirkburnEngland is "okay"? :P
02:13.35Zealgotta love it when what's said in irc overlaps :p
02:13.36DuTempeteYeah, just ok :P
02:13.38Bagginswwdo not eat it without onions :p
02:13.58Bagginswwlimberger does not go well by itself LOL
02:14.25DuTempeteMmmm Gouda
02:14.43BagginswwI liked the texture though. Very smooth. But if i want smooth there are dozen other cheeses with simlar textures that don't require onions to mask the taste and oder.
02:15.02BagginswwBut I had to scratch that one off my list LOL
02:15.26Zeali guess my taste is cheese is limited to some of the mroe usual ones. Chedder, Red leciester, Mozerela, Parmasan, feta, some others i don't really remember.
02:15.36Arcane_NB[[Wandering Plague}}
02:15.43Arcane_NB[[Wandering Plague]]
02:15.43[NewsBot]Arcane_NB meant:
02:16.01DuTempeteand parigian
02:16.05DuTempeteerr parmigian
02:16.23Kirkburnparmigiano :P
02:16.25Zealnever heard of that :s
02:16.33KirkburnParmesan :P
02:16.35DuTempetewell, if you want to get really specific, Kirkburn :P
02:17.08Arcane_NBshoot what is it called, you can get it from the hyeanas in 1k needles
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02:17.36Bagginswwwhat part of "he's dead" do people not understand?
02:17.57Bagginswwhe may appear alive, but balnazzar is playing the puppet master of a corpse
02:19.10Zealdidn't realize he was dead before bal took him over.
02:19.22Bagginswwbal killed him
02:19.26Bagginswwto possess him
02:19.32Bagginswwits how his ability works
02:19.42Zealyeah, not heard of it before
02:19.52Zealonly the type of necromancy they did in wota.
02:23.25BagginswwI hate the boss boxes
02:23.43BagginswwI think there should be a limit to one infobox at a time :p
02:23.59Bagginswwor have infoboxes horizontal and put at the end
02:24.09Bagginswwverticle should be avoided
02:25.42Zeali've got an idea, get rid of them all, use my tooltip template instead, and make good use of categories.. rofl >_>;
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02:26.54Bagginswwwell I like the infobox stuff
02:27.06Bagginswwhave you looked at the improved zone infoboxes?
02:27.10Bagginswwwith demographic inofrmation
02:27.27Bagginswwits closer to wikipedia geographical boxes
02:30.38Zealnot bad. don't like the the styling, but getting better.
02:31.24Zeal is broken btw, h scrolling.
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02:32.49Zealoh god.. it's still a table.
02:32.55Zeali take that all back, lol.
02:35.03Zealin ie7, there's a horizontal scroll bar showing up, scrolls onyl about 10px or something.
02:35.36BagginswwI can't see it on a widescreen
02:35.52Bagginswwso whatever the problem it must be with regular monitors
02:35.55Zealfixed pixel content must be causing it them.
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02:38.14Bagginsww so should we reword that last sentence?
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02:38.31Bagginswwperhaps point out more directly he was killed by Balnazzar who currently possesses his corpse?
02:38.43Bagginswwwith additional citation ;p
02:39.00Bagginswweven though that's also stated in the grand crusader section
02:40.30Zealperhaps simply as "He is was killed and his corpse is currently possed by Balnazzar"
02:41.38Bagginswwwow what an idiot posting a new post at the top of my talk page :p
02:41.43Bagginswwisntead of the bottom
02:41.53Bagginswwand I've warned him in his talk page not to add lore unless he can add citations
02:42.01Bagginswwmost of his stuff was speculation anyways
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02:43.52Zealwhy the hell does he think you're there to enforce all policies
02:44.14Zealyou're there to contribute where you can, and thats more often than not, lore.
02:47.01Zealdo you patrol your watchlist or just RC?
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02:56.05Bagginswwjust RC
02:56.11BagginswwI do not have anyone on a watch list
02:56.20Bagginswwalthough I probably should for certain individuals
02:56.41Zealnot saying you watch someone, meant your watchlist, for watching articles :p
02:57.23BagginswwI thought you meant watchlist for individuals LOL
02:57.45BagginswwI don't even watch specific articles
02:58.59Bagginswwkirkburn care ot leave any thoughts?
02:59.47KirkburnI'm being distracted, gimme a few mins :P
03:00.17Zealhm.. lol
03:00.35Zealnice reply.
03:01.06DuTempeteI has nothing to do with it, I swear!
03:01.11BagginswwI wasn't too harsh I hope?
03:01.20Zealyou'll go blind Kirkburn.
03:01.48Bagginswwand grow hair on his palms?
03:02.16Bagginswwand start producing estrogen...
03:02.24Zealsome people need a heavy hand, others need a swift kick. majority of people though, they need to be pounded into submission ;)
03:02.38DuTempeteI prefer the pounding into submission...
03:04.22Bagginswwsure it can relate to going blind, growing hairy palms and developing estrogen problems.
03:04.40Bagginswwheavy hands and pounding...
03:04.50Bagginswwand other old wives tales
03:04.51Zealanyone here ever worked on writing a generic xml parser in php?
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03:05.41Zealwithout recursive functions that is.
03:08.08Zealmanaged to get the basic of one going, but without knowing the structure, building a correctly structured associative array seems impossible. settled on returning the data and trying to structure it outside the class, where i will know the structure, but even then, it's hard to setup the array without recursive functions : /
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03:09.24Bagginswwwell take care all
03:09.26BagginswwI'm away
03:09.54Zealcya Bagginsww
03:10.37pcjDuTempete, wb, how's your family :)
03:10.47DuTempeteoh god, you don't want to know
03:10.55DuTempeteand I'm not in the condition to say it
03:12.23pcjGlad you're back anyway
03:14.48DuTempeteThanks, pcj :)
03:15.25KirkburnWell, I'm slightly less glad :P
03:18.32DuTempete<insert dog smiley> Kirkburn
03:18.46KirkburnWhat loop?? ;)
03:18.56Kirkburn<insert dog smiley> DuTempete
03:19.07DuTempete<insert bigger dog smiley> Kirkburn
03:19.31Kirkburn<insert infinity sized dog smiley> DuTempete
03:19.46ZealWell, i've not been around for so long, so i don't really know who DuTempete is, and whats going on :p
03:20.07KirkburnI don't think anyone does :)
03:20.14DuTempeteThat' ok Zeal, no one really knows what's going on with Kirkburn and me. :P
03:20.24Zealok, lol
03:20.32KirkburnWell, that was well timed :)
03:21.26KirkburnHey, you stole my face!
03:21.30Zeali'll leave it to my wild imagination ;)
03:22.02DuTempetefar too imaginitive, Zeal.
03:22.51Zealseems so backwards, that storing data in php to send to javascript is quicker and easier than reading xml into php and sending it to javascript..
03:22.59Zealyou have no idea :p
03:27.28KirkburnSekrets are fun
03:28.04KirkburnZeal, you realise that few have any idea what you're talking about? :P
03:28.23KirkburnAt least, I don't :)
03:28.25pcjWhat's he referring to anyway
03:28.25Zeali thought this chan was fully of programmers ;)
03:28.32Zealdidn't expect you to :p
03:28.40KirkburnObsessive WoW nerds, more like
03:28.59Zealmany things are fun btw ;)
03:29.27Zealpcj, script i'm working on for my site. was seeking help on an php xml parser.
03:30.05DuTempetewe aren't alll programmers.
03:30.14Zeali know
03:30.21Zealbut knew there were a fair few.
03:30.44DuTempetebut you're lucky that a few of us do
03:30.44Zeali don't even call myself one anyways, i just know enough to get by.
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03:54.49Zealthought you left :p
03:55.06Bagginswwstill in my apartment was reading abit
03:55.14Bagginswwbut thougth someone might find that intresting
03:55.42BagginswwI won't be listing them up as his classes, since they aren't exactly hard evidence of him having those classes, some definitely aren't his class.
03:56.37DuTempete<insert dog smiley> Kirkburn
03:57.53Kirkburn<insert infinity plus one dog smilies> DuTempete :P
03:58.16DuTempete<insert infinity times infinity dog smilies> Kirkburn
04:00.25DuTempetenight night wowwiki!
04:00.35Kirkburn<insert infinity to the power of infinity dog smilies> DuTempete
04:00.45KirkburnJinx no come backs!
04:01.08Zeal<insert rscpa smiley>
04:01.18Zealnn DuTempete
04:02.41KirkburnRoyal Society for the Protection of Animals for the confused
04:03.11Zealput those dogs in an animal shelter ;)
04:05.23ZealRoyal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals to be exact ;)
04:08.06KirkburnI was being distracted again, thanks for the correction ^^
04:08.38KirkburnMethinks I should be going to bed too
04:10.21Zealamerican time, so nostalgic ;)
04:10.29Zealnn then Kirkburn
04:17.45Bagginswwuh huh someone had him listed as a demigod...
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04:25.38Zealdemigod, hehe
04:25.51Zealwhat should he be, thinking prior-arthas merge
04:26.40Zealnoticed soemthing, his class isn't listed as being Lich
04:26.45Zealit's a class last i saw.
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04:37.36Bagginswwin the RPG we only have the merged version
04:38.12Zealyeah i know, but he's clearly a lich
04:38.25Zealeven if they did neglect that part.
04:38.48Bagginswwand closest he has to classes in that is that cleric, healer/shaman and wizard :p
04:38.56Bagginswwhe's a lich yes
04:39.01Bagginswwbut that's not a class
04:39.04Bagginswwits a template
04:39.13Bagginswwor rather a creature type
04:39.15Zealstupid rpg
04:39.20Bagginswwits a type of undead
04:39.26Bagginswwits the same in mythology too
04:39.26Zeali know
04:39.29Bagginswwlich was never a class :p
04:39.36Zealnot really
04:39.51Zealit's as much of a class as dark ranger is
04:39.55Bagginswwits from german it means "corpse"
04:40.09Bagginswwliches have class types
04:40.20Bagginswwthey arnen't a class lo
04:40.43Bagginswwyes most liches are necromancers, wizards, mages, warlocks and the liek
04:41.06Bagginswwthis has to do with the fact that mythology most were sorcrers and wizards to begin with
04:41.11Bagginswwin life
04:41.12Zealis a lich not a new class that is simply a combination of certain aspect of those?
04:41.20Bagginswwnot in mythology :p
04:41.23Bagginswwits a creature type
04:41.26Zealdon't care about mythology, totaly unrelated :p
04:41.35Bagginswwin rpg indiviudals have classes
04:41.40Bagginswwdifferent types
04:41.51Bagginswwsome are wizards, some mages, some warlocks some necroancers
04:41.57Bagginswwit follows mythology really
04:42.14Bagginswweven a few shamans
04:42.40Zeala lich (creature) can only be a lich (class), a lich (class) can only be a lich (creature). still doesn't mean it's not a class.
04:42.56Bagginswwits not a class in the rpg :p
04:43.00Bagginswwits a template :p
04:43.05Bagginswwyou put on other creatures
04:43.20Bagginswwi.e you kill acreature turn them into a lich
04:43.24Bagginswwthrough a process
04:43.36Bagginswwthey retain whatever class they had in life
04:43.41Bagginswwwhich can vary
04:43.49Zealif there's mroe variation in lore than what you'rs casying about existing classes (which is entirely ridiculous as a lich is never a single one of those) then fine. ie. a purely melee lich
04:44.16Bagginswwnah they are always caster classes as far as I know.
04:44.28Bagginswwyes some liches are a single class.
04:44.28Zealgive that example, as it exists in wc3, but never explained in lroe afaik.
04:44.30Bagginswwsome have more than one
04:44.41Bagginswwwhat is your problem?
04:45.18Zealthat i don't beleive any lichs can be those classes, a lich it's own class which is comprised on similar abilities as those classes.
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04:45.39[NewsBot]Bagginsww meant:'thuzad
04:45.45Bagginswwthose are his post lich classes
04:46.01BagginswwI think there was at least one more lich in the rpg as well.
04:46.09Bagginswwby the lich is in the monster guide too
04:46.11Bagginswwlet me get the info
04:46.24Bagginswwits a monster not a class :p
04:46.52Bagginsww“Lich” is an acquired template that can be added to
04:46.52Bagginswwany humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the
04:46.52Bagginswwbase creature). To become a lich, a candidate must be a
04:47.04Bagginswwspellcaster of at least 8th-level who demonstrates utter loyalty to the Scourge. (Typically, the
04:47.04BagginswwLich King elevates only necromancers to lichdom, but rumors speak of the occasional mage
04:47.04Bagginswwor shaman who also attains this status.)
04:47.18Zeali know, i'm ignoring all the rpg gameplay crap, i always will.
04:47.28BagginswwSome tales imply that a spellcaster with enough personal and magical
04:47.29Bagginswwstrength can willingly turn himself into a lich, but these reports are
04:47.34Zeali'll give you abrakkar
04:47.43Bagginswwits not just gameplay its lore too
04:47.53Bagginswwthey just mix the gameplay with the lore
04:47.58Zealbut would like to see more so i can't just dismiss it with the rpg being lame ;)
04:48.23Zealgotta look at how it can be done, that's merely one way.
04:48.30Zealcan easily be revered.
04:48.39Bagginswwand it wasn't even a class in the warcraft 3 either, just "heroes"
04:48.44Zeali know
04:48.55Bagginswwgive me one source where it as a class :p
04:49.04Zealfrost revents or w/e, they considered liches?
04:49.19Zealther is none, using common sense to determine if it should be.
04:49.44BagginswwDuring his mortal life, the Lich King Ner’zhul
04:49.44Bagginswwcommanded a number of orc warlocks and shaman.
04:49.44BagginswwWhen Kil’jaeden and the Legion captured these wicked
04:49.44Bagginswwspellcasters after the destruction of Draenor, the demons
04:49.44Bagginswwritually slew their prisoners and animated them into
04:49.45Bagginswwtwisted, frightening parodies of their former selves. The
04:49.47Bagginswwresulting liches possessed tremendous magical powers,
04:50.13Bagginswwthough their immortal, undead bodies were bound to
04:50.13BagginswwNer’zhul’s iron will. Since the liches showed unswerving
04:50.13Bagginswwloyalty to their master, Ner’zhul granted them control
04:50.13Bagginswwover the furious elements of the cold north. Since
04:50.13BagginswwDraenor’s destruction, other necromancers of particular
04:50.13Bagginswwloyalty have also become liches.
04:50.13Zeali now you're not used to me being like this btw Bagginsww, but now i care not for ww, i don't have to remain as neutral and be dismissive of things ;)
04:50.13Bagginswwfrost revenant?
04:50.23Bagginswwwell actually I can kick you, ;)
04:50.36BagginswwI don't have to be so neutral either ;)
04:50.47BagginswwLiches are among the most powerful spellcasters and
04:50.47Bagginswwallies of the Scourge, serving their master with evil
04:50.47Bagginswwintent and great power. Often, they command armies as
04:50.48Bagginswwgenerals, surrogates for the Lich King himself. They are
04:50.48Bagginswwdeeply entwined with the cold power of the grave. As
04:50.48Bagginswwa rule, these creatures are power-hungry, devious, and
04:50.50Bagginswwvicious. They utilize their great intellect and dark powers
04:50.52Bagginswwnot only to serve the Lich King, but also to defeat each
04:50.54Bagginswwother in subtle political machinations, gaining strength
04:50.56Bagginswwand renown from each opponent’s death.
04:50.58BagginswwA lich resembles a skeleton with a chill blue glow
04:51.00Bagginswwemanating from within its bones. Liches often dress
04:51.02Bagginswwin flowing robes. Instead of walking on the ground as
04:51.03Zealwhy would you? not illegal to express opinion, just not in the articles :P
04:51.05Bagginswwmortals do, liches float above it on frosty mist.
04:51.30Bagginswwcause its fun ;)
04:51.35Bagginswwand you just auto log back in
04:51.38Zeal"<@Bagginsww> frost revenant?" yes?
04:51.44Bagginswwform where?
04:52.19BagginswwHuman lich, Male Human Necromancer
04:52.21Zeal"Revenants are minor elemental creatures who once served as foot soldiers for the malefic Old Gods when the world was young." ok wtf now?
04:52.24BagginswwHuman necromancers are the most likely
04:52.25Bagginswwcandidates for liches. These liches are evil, cunning,
04:52.25Bagginswwand loyal to the Lich King. They serve as generals of
04:52.25Bagginswwhis armies and as advisors to other powerful members
04:52.25Bagginswwof the Scourge. This lich is somewhat inexperienced
04:52.25Bagginswwand probably new to his undead existence, but he is
04:52.27Bagginswwfilled with power and arrogance.
04:52.36Zealyou can stop c&P ;)
04:52.37Bagginswwoh ya, those, not liches
04:52.51Bagginswwdifferent creature altogether
04:53.28Zealyeah, but elementals? surely not? their humanoid appearence, armour and weaponry completely contradicts that.
04:53.48Bagginswwumm actually lots of elementals wear armor
04:54.16Zealbut not ones that fit a humanoid form.
04:54.16Bagginswwand elementals can assume humoid shapes
04:54.18KirkburnNight Zeal :P
04:54.23Zealthey can?
04:54.24Kirkburn(delayed reactions ftw)
04:54.27Zeallol, nn
04:55.03Kirkburn(people keep distracting me :( _
04:55.39Zealoh here we go, last citation
04:55.46Bagginswwanycase, revenants have a connection to undead too. most can raise the dead too. They are pretty much conglomerates of earth elementals and other elemtnal tyhpes too
04:55.49Zealthey're undead
04:56.26Bagginswwbasically its what happens when an elemental merges with graveyard material
04:56.31Zeal"control. Bonded" that needs to be fixed to "control bonded"
04:56.42Zealyeah, explains their form now, np.
04:56.44Bagginswwhmm where?
04:56.56Zeallast sentence, first paragraph.
04:57.21Bagginswwbtw Manual of Monsters is one of the specific books Metzen wrote for personally LOL
04:58.03Zealyou do know my opinion of Metzen isn't that great right? :p
04:58.45Bagginswwjust letting you know you don't have to like it but eh speculation against what is said is pointless
04:59.01Bagginswwsuch is speculation that liches are a class LOL
04:59.07Zeal"Many live on the Elemental Plane." from what i'm getting from the article, that needs clarification. The elemental spirits live on the Elemental Plane, Revenants are only on Azeroth, as thats when and where they take that form after merging with undead.
04:59.20Bagginswwchecking the original manual
04:59.35Bagginswwrevenants are in elemental pane too
04:59.40BagginswwShadows and light
05:00.00Zeali've got that next to me, got a page?
05:00.16Bagginswwlook up the page that lists the elemental hiearchy
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05:01.14BagginswwRevenants are hateful undead creatures who outside the
05:01.14Bagginswwdomain of Ner’zhul’s control. Bonded to base elemental spirits,
05:01.14Bagginswwthese phantom creatures live only to rage and use their powers
05:01.14Bagginswwfor destruction.
05:01.16Bagginswwthat's the original quote
05:01.22Bagginswwcontrol and bonded are seperate sentences
05:01.24Zeali know
05:01.39Zealyeah, the editor fails at english
05:01.56Bagginswwdifferent dialects
05:01.59Zealneeds to be changed "who are outside" to end the sentence there.
05:02.24Bagginswwya looks typographical to me
05:02.35Bagginswwone of those things where your mind will fill in the missing word
05:02.59Bagginswwits actually the most common mistake in editing
05:03.03Zealwell anyways, er.. i onyl see elemental plane and elemental lords
05:03.11Bagginswwlook for the table :p
05:03.34Zealmight be an idea yeah >_>p
05:03.36Bagginswwa reference on page 140 to an adventure hook is one
05:04.05Bagginsww141 has a table "Elemenatal Hiearchy"
05:04.29Bagginswwthe whole page talks about hiearchy though
05:04.31Zealsplit halves
05:06.33ZealThe more i learn, the more i hate. _
05:06.45Zealstupid bloody backwards argh..
05:06.48Bagginswwif you hate warcraft stay away from it LOL
05:07.00Bagginswwwarcraft has never been 100% consistent
05:07.01Zealso much good in it thought.
05:07.02Bagginswwabout any details
05:07.16Bagginswwyou can go from warcraft 1 to 2 and find flaws
05:07.23Bagginswwand between 2 and 3
05:07.40Bagginswwbetween 3 and 1 its many flaws
05:08.00Bagginswwof course alot of stupid inconsistencyes between 3 and WoW
05:08.19Bagginswwwhich means that between WoW and 1 is a huge divide
05:08.46BagginswwI think one of the biggest stupid changes was whole black temple/black citadel debacle
05:08.49ZealSo.. that brings up a question. Can a revenant be created in the Elemental Plane, or do they have to come to Azeroth and then return, and on their return would they be the same (adventure hook, sounds like the revenant who is split in two for w/e reason would return to normal and is certainly not a low level elemental)
05:09.04Bagginswwwell there are those that die in the elemental plane
05:09.15Zealbut no undead
05:09.19Bagginswwbut I'd think most were probably created before they were banished to the elemental plane
05:09.33Bagginswwwhen the old gods ruled azeroth
05:09.35Zeali mean, nothing that actually "dies" and leaves a corpse to bond to.
05:09.43Bagginswwwell its not just corpses
05:09.53Zealhm, that's true yeah, says they were used by the old gods
05:10.02Bagginswwthey can pretty much take any soil froma  graveyard
05:10.05Bagginswwand bond to it
05:10.15Bagginswwthey can even raise soil into undead
05:10.31Zealthere's no humanoid form to bond with in "soil"
05:10.31Bagginswwya somethinga bout soil connected to the dead
05:10.47Bagginswwmost soil is created from decomposed matter anyways
05:10.53Zeali know
05:10.55Bagginswwbut graveyard material is the strongest
05:11.23Bagginswwspecifically read the article for death revenant
05:11.31Bagginswwits the one with the deepest ties to graveyard
05:12.15Zealwell the statement about them being "minor" is contradictory then it seems
05:12.15BagginswwDeath revenants can create death revenant spawn from slain corpses and the elements from the ground beneath it.
05:12.23Zealso theres one flaw even between the RPGs : /
05:13.03Bagginswwwell actually they are second tier sentient elementals
05:13.17Bagginswwthey aren't at the top of the heap either
05:13.32Bagginswwnote that some are even pretty low
05:13.35Zealone in that adventure hook is on par with an elemental lord ;)
05:13.47Zealthat's a huuge leap
05:13.50Bagginswwbecause he merged with something
05:13.58Bagginswwbut read the hiearchy
05:14.10Bagginswwalso there are always exceptions to the rules
05:14.35Zealhe hasn't merged
05:14.38Bagginswwon the hierachy you see that air and water reveants are pretty low
05:14.41Zealjust reuniting his halves
05:14.46Bagginswwwhatever that means LOL
05:15.03Bagginswwyou don't generally hear of split half revenants
05:15.15ZealFrost != Ice? :S
05:15.23Bagginswwbut ya most air elmentals are pretty low
05:15.32Zealyeah, but it means his original form is very very powerful.
05:16.04Bagginswwfrost and ice are separate ya
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05:16.11ZealSays he's an elder, so seems minor is just the majority, they have their own inner hieracry rivalling that of elementals.
05:16.16Bagginswwyes he is obviously an exception to the rule
05:16.30Bagginswwlike General Drakkisath is an exception to most dragonspawn
05:16.31Zealyeah i'm confused, what's the difference.. two names for the same thing.
05:16.48Bagginswwfrost is air and water I think. Ice is just water
05:17.09Bagginswwoh ice is cold air and water
05:17.19Bagginswwoen is more solid than the other
05:17.39Bagginswwbtw they were both units in WArcraft III lol
05:17.44Bagginswwwell creeps
05:17.51Bagginswwthey had slightly different ability lists
05:18.05Zealfrost is cold air + water, ice is cold air + larger quantities of water...
05:18.54Bagginswwin warcraft 3 a forst revenant could cast blizzard
05:18.57Bagginswwand it was a 4th level mob
05:19.08Bagginswwice reveant was an 8th level mob
05:19.21Bagginswwthat cast frost nova and had a vampirac aura
05:19.45Bagginswwand frost had chaos attack rather than normal
05:19.52Bagginswwerm ice had chaos sorry
05:20.13Zealexample of lore creating gameplay creating new lore
05:20.13Bagginswwbelieve me never try to make sense out of fantasy...
05:20.26Bagginswwwell actually warcraft 3 came out before MoM
05:20.41Zeali know, i'm refering to wc3 specifically :P
05:20.55Bagginswwya as for any mythology before that I'm unclear
05:21.03Bagginswwbut I'd suspect its got DnD routes at least
05:21.40Zealanyways, i loate chaos. more something turns to that, the mroe i begin to hate it ;)
05:21.59Bagginswwchaos orcs? LOL
05:22.33BagginswwI don't really know what chaos attacks in warctraft 3 mechanics are
05:22.43BagginswwI think it got converted into the concept ofchaos energy int eh rpg though.
05:22.49Bagginswwalthough its not the same
05:22.55Bagginswwso their may be no connection
05:23.14Bagginswwchaos energy is completley mechanical/technical but emulates arcane
05:23.15Zealchaos er.. it ignored armour classes iirc.
05:23.18Zealabout it.
05:24.03BagginswwI doubt there is any connection
05:25.17Bagginswwbtw the the chaos energy is funny, it leads to alot of amusing gnome and goblin inventions
05:25.45Bagginswwthe background stories for certaind devices  in the book are funny
05:26.17Bagginsww not a chaos device but funny none the less.
05:26.22Zealwhy complicate things further?!?! "Chaos energy is arcance energy, but instead of being channeled and wielded by a living entity, it is generated through mechnical means" that would have been much simpler..
05:27.06Bagginswwbut its not arcane energy :)
05:27.55Zeallol, nice article.
05:28.09Zeali know they've not made it so, but they should have.
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05:28.21Bagginswwhow often are energy types in the real world the same thing?
05:28.23Zealwhy throw yet more issues into the mix?
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05:29.14Zealerm.. kidding right? pretty much all of them come from similar core energies, just many forms of them and ways of producing them. which is exaclt what i was suggest they should have done.
05:29.26Bagginswwlight energy is not the same thing as electrical energy. Alhtough you can convert one into the other or vice versa and have similar properties.
05:30.01Bagginswwbut electrical energy is not light energy
05:30.13Zeallight is from combustion, a chemical process. one of the core enery types
05:30.32Zealthe other is electricity/magnitism.
05:31.03Zealquestional is atomic would fall into the first, but either way, most spawn from these.
05:31.26Bagginswwactually its electromagnetic radiation so it has some similarities to eletrical energy
05:31.33Bagginsww*light is electromagnetic
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05:32.04Zealno? it's from combustion.
05:32.20Bagginswwnot all electrical energy is electro mechanical
05:32.27Bagginswwnah light can be produced by different means
05:32.34Bagginswwcombustion is one form
05:33.02Zealbut irregardless, there's also the fact there is no need for thme to further complicate matters.. tha'ts why warcraft lore is so fucked up, as they run away with ideas in new directions all the time. they end up not fleshed out, and when they are, they cause issues and retcons.
05:33.37Bagginswwactually to be fair chaos energy is such an obscure thing its not likely to contradict or be contradicted.
05:33.55Bagginswwa bigger issue is bearded female dwarves, but even that's pretty obscure ;)
05:34.08Bagginswwday of the dragon had it fairly common
05:34.17Zealoh i get you, sorry. looking at what you said in the wrong way (electrical converting to light, and light) ;x
05:34.17Bagginswwinfact warcraft adventures was to have bearded dwarves
05:34.47Zealexactly why it won't get fleshed out much, which is lame for fans.
05:34.54Zeali saw you say earlier :p
05:34.59Bagginswwwell most fans won't even have access to it lol
05:35.12Zeali'm sure wow would have too if they thought the appeals would be there XD
05:35.15Bagginswwwith the rpg dieing anyway s;)
05:35.28Bagginswwya well that's where it changed
05:35.35Bagginswwthe bearded dwarvesa became less common
05:35.40Bagginswwwhen they were implied to be very common
05:35.46Bagginswwand some sources say not at all LOL
05:36.02Bagginswwbut you can find a reference to a bearded dwarve in WoW if you are looking carefully
05:36.12Zealwell i think most people will agrre, the lore that comes from the rpg usually just makes you groan.
05:36.20BagginswwGubber Blumps sister is said to ahve a beard
05:36.30Bagginswwbearded dwarves isnt' even from the rpg
05:36.43Bagginswwthere is only one reference to bearded dwarves in the rpg
05:36.43Zeali know it's not.
05:37.01Bagginswwand its to say its rare or non existant
05:37.03Zealjust pointing to chaos convo still :P
05:37.25Bagginswwmidn you their ar ethings in WoW quests you only hear of once
05:37.28Bagginswwand never again
05:37.31Zealwell, i'm glad they changed it really
05:37.32Bagginswwonly the rpg expanded on them
05:37.42Zeali mean, why follow tolken?
05:38.08Zealgot any examples in mind?
05:38.22Zealcomic coming soon ^_^
05:38.28Bagginswwyes I preordered
05:38.51Zealwas like 9 for 12 or w/e
05:38.51Bagginswwwell for one thign random items you find in the game
05:39.03Bagginswwhave background stories in the rpg
05:39.16Bagginswwnot all mind you but quite  a few
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05:39.33Bagginswwrpg has mentiond alot of things before they even showed up in wow or the game was released
05:39.39Zealbut how well they handle these things is questionable.
05:40.12Bagginswwwell actually I tihnk alot of the items in the rpg were released before they showed up in WoW
05:40.24Bagginswwso wow actually referenced the rpg
05:40.43BagginswwBael Modan has very little lore in the game but is greatly expanded on in the RPG, and first appeared in therpg
05:41.44Zealseriously, if they put the rpg guys to working on writing an online encylopedia after this, with alot of overseering from blizz, i think it would help blizz to see where they're going, what needs to be fixed, where issues are etc. their current internal process (here's loads of notes, rest is in metzen's head so ask him) which never brings these things to light and it's all done on a whim and what sounds like it would sell.
05:41.46Bagginswwof course you have monster guide or MoM taking something monsters with little lore and expanding on them.
05:42.10Bagginswwits not just metzen though
05:42.14Bagginswwits his whole staff ;)
05:42.38Zealwho only know what he tells them and already exists
05:42.53Bagginswwbtw alot of times the rpg book writers are also the WoW quest writers :p
05:42.57Bagginswwor game designers
05:43.01Zeali'm sure they have shit loads of input nad ideas that make it, but it's him that makes warcraft what it is imo.
05:43.08Bagginswwso it goes much deeper than metzen
05:43.13Bagginswwits a blizzard issue
05:43.14Zealnever heard of this :s
05:43.30Zealit's his job, it's his issue. they have their own jobs within it.
05:43.32Bagginswwyou just have to compare the names int eh game credits :)
05:43.42Zeal*jobs to do.
05:43.51Bagginswwsamwise is even beenon the writing staff occasionally
05:44.06Zealwell they're close.
05:44.12Zealso doesn't surpise me.
05:44.36Bagginswwalso the guy who wrote last guardian
05:44.39Bagginswwalso wrote for the rpg
05:44.43Zealand artists usually do have alot of input in those things, as they have to make the world come to life.
05:44.45Bagginswwalthough eh's not blizzard staff
05:45.01Zealfor the rpg huh? which? he was my fav :p
05:45.15Bagginswwthe first book
05:45.28Zealone i don't have, lol.
05:45.40Bagginswwwhich imo has very good writing, even if its pre-WoW even pretyt much pre-TFT
05:45.48Bagginswwand its only kalimdor centric
05:46.03Zealwell i would love him to write more novels
05:46.17Zealbut.. they've gone with others for the big releases now : /
05:46.24BagginswwBob Fitch
05:46.33Zealgot christie golden working on another trilogy as well now.
05:46.38Bagginswwis one of the blizzard employees who has consistentlyb een on the writing/editorial staff
05:46.58Bagginswwpersonally not a big fan of her, she takes the biggest leaps
05:47.02Bagginswwignores alot of material
05:47.13Zealbut i prefer her to knaak
05:47.18Zealdon't like his stuff..
05:47.38Bagginswwif its any consolation metzen was asked if the books were canon at gencon
05:47.57Bagginswwand he said well they are lore, but he doesn't necessarily have to follow them but he usually tries to
05:48.03Bagginswwby books I mean the novels
05:48.21Bagginswwactually I like Knaak in that he sometimes makes really obscure references
05:48.28Bagginswwbut his books are harder tor ead unfournately
05:48.32Bagginswwa bit slowr paced
05:48.35Zealaye : .
05:48.37Zeal(Adys): /
05:48.46Zealhate it when it does that, sorry.
05:50.02Bagginswwbtw they editors blaimed bob fitch about the so-called errors that cropped into WoWRPG
05:50.15Bagginswwand he was one of the Blizzard staff members
05:50.19Bagginswweven metzen blaimed him
05:50.30Bagginswwin a joking manner but it was there
05:50.37ZealHm, how well would it go down if wrote Chirs Metzen lied to everyone and provided proof? ;)
05:50.45Zealon his article that is, lol.
05:51.03BagginswwYou know I'd be up for it ;)
05:51.11Bagginswwcited evidence that's true is always valid
05:51.28Zealit's a connect the dots game of 3 facts iirc.
05:51.29Bagginswwalthough I wouldnt' use "lie" exactly, ;)
05:51.36Bagginswwbend the truth sure
05:52.03Zealwith only 2 facts, he could have simply forgotten, with all 3, he lied.
05:52.33BagginswwI'd start out with the talk page
05:52.41Bagginswwget people prepared for it
05:53.13Bagginswwtest reactions
05:53.27Bagginswwfind out if there is any flaws in your logic you might have missed etc.
05:53.35Zealbasically it has a quote from blizzcon 01, his apology and a quote before blizzcon. i forget the detail of it all basically, but ofc it revolves around him telling us he forgot about the Dranei's past.
05:53.39Bagginswwand to avoid any potential edit war
05:54.13Bagginswwwell you definitely need to find the quotes
05:54.18Zeali know
05:54.26Zeali would if i cba
05:54.37Zealbut i'm not out to flame the guy
05:54.47Zealhe just lost my respect even more.
05:55.14Bagginswwbtw to be honest I don't put any oen on pedestals to begin with.
05:55.33BagginswwI assume everyone is human, and probably going ot make mistakes, and not be entirely honest at times
05:55.44Bagginswwrealistic viewpoint :p
05:56.13Bagginswwlet me find you somethign I put up on a talk page
05:56.38Zeali know, but i expect someone in his position and known to produce wonderful ideas, would have a good deal of respect for his fans and his work.
05:57.17BagginswwLet's face it metzen started out as an artist, he was given the job later :p
05:57.25Zealhe makes a mistake, admit it. don't lie about it. but i do question if he really did "make a mistake" now.
05:57.46Bagginswwhe's shared it at times too
05:58.00BagginswwI hardly think one person can keep all ideas in his head at the same time
05:58.12Bagginswwalso note were star wars movies contradict htemselves LOL
05:58.27Bagginswwyou can only cover it up so much with the "Certain point of view" idea
05:58.43Bagginswwyou ever watch evil dead movies?
05:58.49Bagginswwthey get progressivly worse too
05:59.05Bagginswwbut ya, draenei issue, imo its old hat
05:59.16Bagginswwevery warcraft game has contradiced stuff rom the previous games before it
05:59.22Zeal"fanatical fans" lol? fanatical fantaics :P
05:59.55Zeali know, thats why i think they should have worked on laying this stuff out for them be better keep track of etc.
05:59.56Bagginswwbut ya I found it a bit odd how the stuff they were occused of, doesn't match up with what was really said
06:00.15Bagginswwbtw eredar thing is only partially a contradictio :)
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06:00.35BagginswwI went back to the rpg, and noticed that the concept that eredar and demons and general were uncorrupted at one point
06:00.41Bagginsww*in general
06:00.48Bagginswwand this was long before TBC
06:00.55BagginswwManual of Monsters even
06:01.07Bagginswwread the Sargeras article in S&L very closely
06:01.09Zeali'm sure everyone gets the idea of a warcraft bible existing at blizz, carried by metzen at all times, but if anything, it's probably a notebook or folder of notes, lol.
06:01.17BagginswwLOL ya
06:01.24Bagginswwand I think he's forced to change ideas at itmes
06:01.30Zealoh, sure.
06:01.48BagginswwI think there was an interview where he said he wanted to have only male druids in WoW
06:01.52Zealbut we all know there's a right and a wrong way to go about changing things.
06:01.59Bagginswwbut he was told to make it equal
06:02.11Bagginswwand it was ongly going to be alliance I think
06:02.13Zealremember that too.
06:02.35Bagginswwthere is someone higher up we don't know the name of
06:02.43Bagginswwand they are probalby happy about that LOL
06:03.26Bagginswwon a related note Metzen discussed at gencon how he views orcs as benevolent but he says everyone else at blizzard thinks they are evil ganking bastards adn wants to write them that way
06:03.33Bagginswwthe comic is supposed to go into this btw
06:03.42Bagginswwshow their dark side
06:03.47Bagginswwthat they still apparently have
06:03.54Bagginswwonly thrall has been keeping them in check
06:04.24Zealwell doesn't even have to be higher up, other areas like the game designers, could force matters into a certain direction, nut it's likely the come to the big boss point out the conflict, and he's gunna pick what can work best and sell best ofc.
06:04.58Zealyeah, heard it before.
06:05.17Zeali'm sure it's not a clear cut as that though
06:05.28Bagginswwbut ya back to the WoWRPG "errors" its funny how one isn't really an error, but people misinterpreting what it said, but convincing everyone in charge that the error existed in the way the fan complained, and forced an apology out of them.
06:05.44Zealgunna be plenty who understand the nature of the orcs now, but some probably do prefer the evil orcs.
06:06.02Zealyeah, you showed me before
06:06.06Zealit is silly
06:06.12BagginswwThe other was an error but not quite the one that people complained it was, and forced them into thinking it was a different kind of error, so they apologized for the wrong error and tried to epxlain it away LOL
06:06.23Zealaye, lol.
06:07.02Bagginswwhad I been there at the time with the book, I would have royally gotten onto the person complaining
06:07.14BagginswwI think it was kawawakas if you remember him
06:07.40Zealoh yeah, lol.
06:07.42Bagginswwbut ya I would have told the authors that they were apologizing for the wrong thigns in the wrong way LOL
06:08.13Zeali was talking to Kirkburn before i came back about SoL after i saw someone tried to stir things up again.
06:08.14Bagginswwbtw i've caught Kawawakas misinterpreting thigns in other books as well, and had to explain to him where he was wrong :p
06:08.28Bagginswwwhat about this time?
06:09.02Zealoh, someone wanted to write an article for his site about the hatred between ww and sol
06:09.23Bagginswwof course you remember kawakwas and the infamous appendix 3, lol. Yet we ultimately proved his claims were off the mark
06:09.37Zealhe got banned in the end anyways, cos turned out he was a sockpuppet for someone who had been banned before.
06:09.44Bagginswwoh wow
06:09.56Bagginswwso he shouldn't be on the bookkeeper staff at ww right?
06:10.07Bagginswwcause I see he is still listed :p
06:10.17Zealwell on sol, they are still adamant that luke johnson knows all and we should accept his word as fact..
06:10.39Zealwho? :o
06:10.39BagginswwLOL even Luke Johsnon admitted he didnt' know for sure, and it was just his opinion
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06:11.15Bagginswwbut ya I think there were two kinds of writers for MOM those that considered the whole book a source of lore, and a few that didn't :p
06:11.34Bagginswwwe'd need Metzen to know for sure LOL
06:11.39Zealoh, lol forgot he was on the staff.
06:11.40Bagginswwbut he isn't talking
06:11.51BagginswwMetzen was one of the main writers actually
06:12.04BagginswwIt would be amusing if he wrote the Salamander article
06:12.10Bagginswwthe one that metnions mites for example
06:12.13Zealwell metzen would have to be careful if he said anything, cos he could open up a can of worms.
06:12.28Bagginswwyou can tell he was very enthused about the book read his opening letter
06:12.33Bagginsww[[Warcraft RPG]]
06:12.34[NewsBot]Bagginsww meant:
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06:13.06Bagginswwwell one thing Metzen is very careful not to answer too much about the RPG because he's bombarded every single convention "Is it canon"
06:13.07Bagginswwby the same person
06:13.12Bagginswwhe remembers that person
06:13.14Bagginswwevery time
06:13.22Bagginswwmaybe not every single convention but quite a few
06:13.28Bagginswwits funny at gencon he makes fun of the guy
06:13.36Bagginswwhe's like you ask me the same question every time
06:13.48Bagginswwand the guy is like well I just want to make sure you change your midn
06:13.56Bagginsww*if you
06:14.09Bagginswwanyways the quesiton is basically ARe the novels and the rpg books canon"
06:14.27Bagginswwand like I said metzen only returned with a discussion about ythe novels
06:14.35Bagginswwbefore he had to switch to another quesiton
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06:14.50Bagginswwbut ya I don't think he likes those quesitons
06:15.00BagginswwI'd be annoyed if I was asked the sam ething over and over
06:15.15Bagginswwdespite the fact that I had been telling people all along in variuos palces that yes the rpg explains thigns :p
06:15.19Bagginswwand is part of the lore
06:16.56Bagginswwbut ya he was co-author on two of the rpg books and design assistance and additioanl material for all of them
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06:19.00ZealWell from what i can tell, if people really wanna know is canon there is a simple answer. Whatever Metzen is currently thinking of doing to the lore. ;)
06:19.22Bagginswwwell I think of it as bibical canon
06:19.30Bagginswwits all part of the sameb ook
06:19.38Bagginswwbut not everyone agrees with what happened ;p
06:19.39Zealanything else is just resource material for him it seems :P
06:19.52Bagginswwyou can find alot of contradictions in the bible
06:19.55Bagginswwyet its all canon
06:19.58Zealno doubt
06:20.13Bagginswwone example
06:20.16Bagginswwthe demoniacs
06:20.29Bagginswwone gospel sasy there was 1 demoniac
06:20.34Zealbut wouldn't it be nice to have to have universe that doesn;t suffer from that issues? :P
06:20.36Bagginswwanother says there was 2
06:20.48Bagginswwour universe doesn't even agree on what happened in real life ;)
06:20.59Zealmeant fansty/game universe :P
06:21.14BagginswwMetzen was the and is probably the most consisent ever
06:21.19Bagginswwerm sorry
06:21.23BagginswwI mean
06:21.24Bagginswwnot metzen
06:21.24Zealhere's an idea, open source universe development :P
06:21.31Bagginswwand you'd still have problems
06:21.42BagginswwThey have tried that before
06:21.45Bagginswwwith rpg game
06:21.56Bagginswwopen source rpg universe paper and pencile
06:22.19Zealp&p, pfft.
06:22.23Bagginswwbasicaly once players got done with using their charcters they became characters to used as npcs in later campaigns
06:22.39Sky2042p&p has some lore which the main games don't have, unfortunately ;(
06:22.41Bagginswwit wasn an official dnd campaign I think
06:22.43Zealnah, wasn't really thinking quite like that.
06:22.50Bagginswwso ya sourcebooks for it
06:22.58Bagginswwwere using people's player characters
06:23.26Bagginswwbasically apparently you had to pay and go through a huge sign up process to get into it
06:23.35Bagginswwif I'm remembering the details right
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06:23.48Bagginswwbut ya I hardly believe it was consistent ;)
06:24.18Bagginswwthen there was doctor who novels
06:24.21Bagginswwthey opened it up to fans to write
06:24.33BagginswwI doubt it was consistent ;)
06:24.40Bagginswwnot that even the shows are entirely :)
06:24.56Sky2042oh great... Bagginsww has a real sparring partner now...
06:25.06Zeallol Sky2042
06:25.21Sky2042seeing as ragestorm's a bum and still won't come on irc
06:25.41Bagginswwusually the more hands you have stirring the pot the worse it gets
06:26.15Bagginswwstar wars actually was pretty consistent until Lucas went back and made the prequels and changed from his original plans
06:26.41Bagginswwunraveling so much that Lucasbooks had done to keep consistency
06:26.59Bagginswwplus you had so many fans that wanted stuff thrown out just simply because they didnt' like the books
06:27.02Sky2042we're talking how the comics and such mesh with the movies?
06:27.30Bagginswwmind you not even the movies mesh well with each othe r:p
06:27.32Sky2042he's always had it in mind to make the prequels, and obviously has always had which were going to be about what
06:27.49Bagginswwwell actually his plans for the prequels changed a bit over time
06:27.57Bagginswwjust as he kept on rewriting the old movies
06:28.16Bagginswwwatch first edition of his old movies with the dvd editions and there are alot of differences
06:28.20Bagginswwhe retconed himself
06:28.25Bagginswweven in interviews
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06:28.44Bagginswwnow Tolkien was similar always rewriting himself too
06:29.01Bagginswwbut he usually didnt' want to realease anythign to the public until he got it how he wanted it.
06:29.21Bagginswwand then created explanations for why things were different from a in-universe perspective LOL
06:29.21Sky2042because he was a writer, not a moviemaker
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06:29.45Bagginswwlike if someone wrote a letter to him asking why such and such didnt' seem to fit
06:29.56Bagginswwhe'd send a letter back with some huge concocted explanation lol
06:30.06Bagginswwbecause he wanted perfection
06:30.20Bagginswwand had to stand by anything that he released to the public
06:30.40Bagginswwa good example is first edition of the Hobbit was a lie told by Bilbo
06:30.46Bagginswwot hide the truth of the ring
06:31.02Zealme like
06:31.17Zealgotta <3 dedication like that
06:31.24Bagginswwfinal edition was really what happened and was written after Bilbo had told the truth, and was edits by Frodo
06:31.45Bagginswwthe explanation is pretty genious too
06:31.54Bagginswwit makes perfect sense
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06:32.13Bagginswwespecialy considering the backstory that we are reading the redbooks, ;)
06:32.28Bagginswwthe books written by the hobbits
06:33.05Bagginswwthere was like 3 or four authors and editors ot the books
06:33.10Bagginswwbilbo was the first IIRC
06:33.13Zealyou saw how i explained away wc3->wota conflicts :p
06:33.15Bagginswwthen frodo added his bit
06:33.30Bagginswwthen samwise iirc
06:33.39Bagginswwadded the bit about Frodo leaving
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06:34.10Bagginswwwhich conflict?
06:35.44Bagginswwbut ya Zeal I went downt he path of trying to keep things consistent in a series LOL it made me old and bitter ;)
06:35.56Bagginswwand ultimately drove me away from a few series
06:36.13BagginswwI'm not a huge fan of star wars now, do not like the way they have taken the universe
06:36.32Bagginswwnot a big fan of the prequels or the edits to the original movies
06:36.35Zealthe timeline stuff
06:36.49Zealtyrande not knowing orcs or w/e
06:37.17Bagginswwthat's why I'm not so serious about warcraft, or care about what happens and expect them to reinent the wheel over and over again :p
06:37.47Bagginswwwhat did you do exactly?
06:38.01Zealanyways.. conflicts are frustrating, as they shouldn't be happening with good research and retcon should be more obvious. It's when i think something is jsut a bad idea it pissed me off and i stop carying.
06:38.24Bagginswwread history of middle earth
06:38.33Bagginswwsee how tolkien kept track of his stuff :p
06:38.48Bagginswwthe guy was writing on napkins and on previoulsy used paper :p
06:38.50Zealwc3 happened before wota, thus what we planed in wc3 was the original timeline, but wow is the new timeline, so it appears seemless to us and removes any conflicts.
06:39.00Bagginswwhe'd erase stuff and then write over it 3 or four tims
06:39.16Bagginswwthat's a problem though zeal
06:39.32Bagginswwas there are stuff in WC3 timeline that had to have happened after WOTA
06:39.41Zeali know, your new found conflicts within the wota timelines :P
06:39.43Bagginswworiginal timelne in WOTA had Hakkar during warcraft5 3
06:40.12Bagginswwthe hound master
06:40.17Bagginswwhe was never a part of warcraft III
06:40.23Bagginswwjust like was said in the second timeline
06:40.28Bagginswwand later sources
06:40.34Bagginswweven Brann says that Hakkar didn't exist
06:40.38Zealoh that, yeah.
06:40.51Zealwell knaak's creation, so i blame him.
06:40.52Bagginswwthe most current history is a blending of both actually
06:41.15BagginswwI think the "old timeline" in his book isn't even any timeline we knew of
06:41.15Zealdidn't say it removed all issues
06:41.24Bagginswwit is the altenrate timeline
06:41.30Zealjust the ones from the timeline change :P
06:41.31Bagginswwthe new timeline is the true timeline
06:41.47Zealwell that brings more issues
06:41.48Bagginswwand it created the warcraft 3 events
06:42.03Bagginswwbrann is awhare of both timelines too so it odd.
06:42.07Bagginswwhe's fairly omniscient ;P
06:42.15Zealoh sigh.
06:42.45Bagginswwanycase alot of the so called 'changes' never actually were changes in the lore to begin with LOL
06:42.46Zealjust when i was idolizing the guy :P
06:42.53Bagginswwthey were stuff we never even heard of
06:43.02Bagginswwsince we knew barely anything about that time period to begin with
06:43.15Zeali know
06:43.38Bagginswwbut ya basically somehow both histories have been coming down the ages and exist to historians
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06:43.50Zealbut this is more issues with what should have happened after the change, not in the change.
06:43.57Bagginswwand the historians argue about what really happened back then LOL
06:44.26Zealwell, are these in different sources or same sources. cos you could explain them away the same way :p
06:44.40Bagginswwof course in WoW you get books telling the old events
06:45.06Bagginswwand some stuff making reference to WoTA novels
06:45.15Zeali honestly like the who idea of each source being merely a window into whatever timeline we're in at that point.
06:45.45Bagginswwits similar to how historians have different takes on history and what really happened
06:45.50Bagginswwin real life
06:46.17Zealwell that's merely because they don't know :p out of universe, we do :p
06:46.28Bagginswwthat's the problem we don't know
06:46.30Bagginswwat all
06:46.49[NewsBot]GamePolitics: Film About Super Columbine Game Controversy Screened in U.K. -
06:46.52Bagginswwmetzen's APG/HPG references are a blending of both timelines :p
06:47.19Bagginswwthat is he makes direct references to how things happened in Warcraft III manual
06:47.31Bagginswwthat may have been slightly different in the novels
06:47.47Bagginswwyet he also makes references to things that were in the novels only
06:48.01Zealwell honestly, that's him doing a poor job imo. he's acting like a historian instead of a writer himself.
06:48.29Thrae"GamePolitics: Film About Super Columbine Game Controversy Screened in U.K." <-- I wonder if the controversy arising will be made into a game?
06:48.31Bagginswwi think the reality is that alot of those in-game books take precidence over the novels
06:48.41Bagginswwingame books are direct rips of warcraft iii manual
06:48.48Bagginswwonly slight changes
06:48.52Zealbasically looking at previous sources, saying oh, this happened, and this, and that. instead of just writting what version of events he wants to have happened.
06:49.26Bagginswwas a side note he merged Warcraft II lothar death versio with the version mentioned in other soruces
06:49.36Bagginswwby saying some believed he died honorably others believe he was ambushed
06:50.31Zealwell you can get away with merging non-first hand accounts of in-universe lore, but generally merging lore is a bad idea. retcon is better.
06:51.01Bagginswwretcon isn't better, retcon usually jsut means ignoring old material for the sake of writing new material
06:51.06Bagginswwwhich you said you hat e;)
06:51.17Zealno, said it doesn't bother me.
06:51.21Bagginswwretcons usually come out of mistakes
06:51.29Bagginswwoops we made a mistake, let's go with it
06:51.44Bagginswwno one will care about the older material anyways :p
06:51.45Zealjust they shouldn't need to happen, if they do though, do it clear cut and well.
06:52.04Bagginswwmetzen has said in interviews that all the books we read are in-universe books :p
06:52.13Bagginswwby different historians
06:52.18Bagginswwgiving their different viewpoitns
06:52.31Bagginswwthat's his way of getting out of where authors screw things up
06:52.34Zealeg, i liek the eredar lore, but it shouldn't have been done. But seeing as it was, it could have been so much better. Because he didn't retcon properly, we're less with a mess for him to explain.
06:52.48Bagginswwwell like I said Eredar lore isn't completey new
06:53.05Bagginswwthe idea that all demons were orignlaly corrupted into demons exists
06:53.08Zeali know, but it's a completely new direction.
06:53.16Zealfrom what we had.
06:53.16Bagginswwat least as far back as Manual of Mosnters
06:53.28Bagginswwits even hinted on in Shadows and Light.
06:53.32Zeali know
06:53.35Bagginswwby Sargeras of all people
06:53.46Zealhonestly, that should have been done. but he "forgot"
06:54.19Zealwish i could remember that quote now, bastard lier..
06:54.47Bagginswwmanual of mosnters was released not long after Warcraft III
06:55.09Bagginswwaround the time of TFT though
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06:55.33Zealand this is where i pull out..
06:55.43Bagginswwso it makes me wonder if the idea of demons being created through corruption has existed for a long time before that
06:55.52[NewsBot]MMO Champion: WotLk, Illidan china first kill, comics -
06:56.22Zealah, i love that pic.
06:56.36Zealanyways, yeah. it makes sense.
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06:58.17Bagginswwpure-hearted, altruistic Titans, unable to conceive of evil or wickedness in any
06:58.17Bagginswwform, struggled to find a way to end the demons’ constant threat.
06:58.23Bagginswwthat sounds like so much propaganda ;)
06:59.41Zealwell tbh, the idea that demons and evil races existed before sargeras makes perfect sense to
06:59.59Zealit's hard to beleive of evil ever being some "new"
07:00.13Bagginswwso does sargeras implied view that the titans just viewed other natural races as demons ;)
07:00.34Bagginswwby viewing them as demons and declaring war on them they may have inadvertainly turned them into demons
07:00.48Bagginswwbut ya "altruistic"
07:00.51Zealoh, i saw your writing soem of that the other day.
07:00.53Bagginswwseems abit exaggerated
07:01.01Zeali never got that implication tbh, don't agree.
07:01.14Bagginswwwell the point is sargers is crazy he could be wrong
07:01.24Bagginswwbut there might be some truth to it
07:01.34Zealwell it was what you wrote about sargeras's turning i didn't agree with.
07:02.06Bagginswwuh its in S&L
07:02.13Bagginswwagree or disagree with it if you like LOL
07:03.08Bagginswwpage 122 if you didnt  know
07:03.25Zealer.. think you said something about him thinking the Titans were evil or w/e. Beleive it was pretty clear he changed to beleive what they did was good, but it was futile and the onyl order was in chaos and thus decided to undo all the order they tried to bring.
07:03.57Zealsomething along those lines..
07:03.59BagginswwConvinced that the Titans’ ordering of the universe
07:03.59Bagginswwwas unnatural and ultimately responsible for
07:03.59Bagginswwthe corrupted nature of the demons, Sargeras decided
07:03.59Bagginswwto undo the work of the Titans throughout
07:03.59Bagginswwthe universe. The
07:04.02Zealand i know it is.
07:04.15Zealthat's the quote?
07:04.16Bagginswwthat's the quote
07:04.28Zealcontrdicts a diff quote then, lol.
07:04.50Bagginswwa crazed being is going ot be conflicting LOL
07:05.13Bagginswwsadly we are not told much about the time of ordering before they "encountered the dmeons"
07:05.24Bagginswwwe know next to nothing of that era
07:05.37Zeal when is someone going to correct that to say external images and links can be done, and have been for a long long time now (if not always..)
07:06.24Sky2042i'm farirly certain external images aren't supposed to possible due to wikia turning the function of... xD
07:06.30Sky2042but, as they are...
07:07.49BagginswwThe noble Sargeras, unable to process the raging doubt and despair
07:07.50Bagginswwthat overwhelmed his senses, lost all faith in not only his mission,
07:07.50Bagginswwbut the Titans’ vision of an ordered universe, as well. Sargeras
07:07.50Bagginswwbegan to believe that the concept of order itself was folly – and that
07:07.50Bagginswwchaos and depravity were the only absolutes within the dark, lonely
07:07.55Bagginswwthat's from warcraft iii manual
07:08.03Zeal"Eventually he came to believe that the concept of order itself was folly, and that chaos and depravity were the only absolutes within the dark, lonely universe." "By the time Sargeras' madness had consumed the last vestiges of his valiant spirit, he believed that the Titans themselves were responsible for creation's failure. Deciding, at last, to undo their works throughout the universe, he resolved to form an unstoppable army
07:08.05Bagginswwbasically the same thing said S&L
07:08.12Zealsimilar, not the same
07:08.21Bagginswwwell not verbatim of course :p
07:09.00Bagginswwbtw there are at least 3 different ways the same material is worded
07:09.14BagginswwHe was unable to comprehend
07:09.14Bagginswwthe nature of such pure evil, and came to
07:09.14Bagginswwblame the Titans for what he considered to be their
07:09.14Bagginswwflawed pursuit of a false order. Sargeras concluded
07:09.14Bagginswwthat chaos and depravity were the only true forces
07:09.15Bagginswwin the universe and angrily exiled himself from the
07:09.17Bagginswwranks of the Titans forever.
07:09.19Bagginswwthat's also from S&L
07:09.46Bagginswwso above you got three different paraphrases
07:09.47Zealmainly the key word "unatural" and the blame for for demons.
07:09.55Zealis what i have an issue with
07:10.04Bagginswwsemantics :p
07:10.04Zealthey're bold, not really backed up statements
07:11.14ZealSky2042, when i first came to ww, they were usuable, and that was 1.7.1 so.. no idea, seemed as if it's always been able to do it :S
07:11.45Bagginswwzeal additional versios is in the warcraft Encyclopedia
07:12.24Zealcba to load that up unless you know it can backup what S&L said :P
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07:12.51Zealcan't be arsed.
07:13.10Bagginswwthey all basically say that, he began to believe order was folly :p
07:13.21Bagginswwthat titans ideas were stupid
07:13.31Bagginswwand that he lost faith
07:13.53Bagginswwand that chaos adn depravity was the truth :p
07:14.24Zealthne stick with what i said.
07:14.37Bagginswwwhat did you say?
07:14.41Zealbe interesting if that gets fleshed out at some point
07:15.03Bagginswwbasically we come into the story way into the war
07:15.09Bagginswwwe don't know what happened before hand though
07:15.32Zealthat saying what the Titans did is "unatural" and that they are to blame for Demons are bold statements to make and currently have nothing to back them up.
07:15.40Bagginswwthat's where the context in S&L goes into the idea that itw as the ordering of the universe that lead to that war.
07:16.15Bagginswwwhere does it say that?
07:16.20BagginswwI don't see it in S7L
07:16.39Bagginswwoh the conxtext
07:16.49Bagginswwbasically its Sargeras thinking after the fact
07:16.59Bagginswwits after they went ot war
07:17.07Zeal"Convinced that the Titans' ordering of the universe was unnatural"
07:17.12Bagginswwway after the ordering of the worlds
07:17.12Zeali dunno, you pasted it :P
07:17.23Bagginswwgo read S&L you have the book
07:17.27Zeali'm confused, what war?
07:17.29Bagginswwread the entire xontext
07:17.38Bagginswwthe war with the "demons"
07:17.57Bagginswwthe one that Sargeras was in charge of
07:17.59Zealnot following then.
07:18.05Bagginswwbasically the order is this
07:18.12BagginswwTitans order many worlds
07:18.19Zeali know the order :p
07:18.20Bagginswwdiscover demons
07:18.28Bagginswwsend sargeras to defeat them all
07:18.48Bagginswwsargeras startst to hink ordering is follow and chaos and depreavity are the real truths
07:19.05Zealaye, i know i know :P
07:19.09Bagginswwthen starts thinking that it was the ordering that may have created the demons int ehf irst place
07:19.11Bagginswwbefore they ran into them
07:19.25Bagginswwa side affect
07:19.47Zealhm.. dunno about that
07:20.16Bagginswwyour free to speculate all you want
07:20.47Zealbecause the order for me is, demons existed in some form of another, ordering, fed up with demons, sargeras chosen champ to fight, begins to go mad and turns.
07:20.49[NewsBot]World of Raids: First Illidan Kill in China -
07:21.25Zealnothing to say that demons onyl existed after the order started, nothing to say either way at all.
07:21.25Bagginswwwarcraft encyclopedia adds one more additioanl problem
07:21.32Bagginswwit states that sargeras created all the demons LOL
07:21.36Bagginswwand that there was no war
07:21.49Bagginswwread it :)
07:21.57Zealwell i guess that's the retcon in action.
07:21.59BagginswwOnce a noble warrior for order and peace, Sargeras came to believe that there was a fundamental flaw in the universe, a flaw that made his primary purpose an impossible goal. He decided that the other titans were deeply misguided in trying to establish order throughout creation. Under the circumstances, the struggle was futile. The universe had to be destroyed utterly and remade without the underlying defect. Only then could true
07:22.00Bagginswworder be achieved. Thus, Sargeras conceived of a sweeping campaign to bring about the end of all things: the Burning Crusade.
07:22.00BagginswwTo carry out his plan, he created the Legion, whose ranks he bolstered by creating demons: immortal creatures whose hunger, power, and malice made them perfect killing machines. As a result, the Legion has grown immense and consumed countless worlds. To date, the only planet that has managed to thwart the Legion's power is Azeroth, a fact which enraged Sargeras and made him all the more determined to bring Azeroth to its knees.
07:22.12Zeali love how you tell me to read it, then paste it ;)
07:22.15Bagginswwhowever the demon war is still in WoW itself
07:22.18Bagginswwheh heh
07:22.36BagginswwLOL eredar were the "first demons"
07:23.36Zealwell i guess it's an easier concept to follow
07:23.43Zealnot sure i like it though.
07:24.00Bagginswwya I think there are people have different views on the issue :p
07:24.06Bagginswwin the staff
07:24.11Zeali bet
07:24.16BagginswwI think its supposed to be stuck in myth and legend now :p
07:24.23Bagginswwand we just getting the various legends :p
07:24.39Bagginswwbecause tehre are defintely quests in wow and books that discuss the old material
07:24.42Bagginswwthe demon war
07:25.05Zealwell, it's easier to understand and side with his reasoning this way, but then would he let himself go so much as to turn so clearly "evil"
07:25.53Zealit's liek they've set him up like most races in wow, different but can be percieved as evil by others, yet everything he does is actually evil.. lol
07:25.57Bagginswwwe have a chicken or the egg paradox here LOL
07:27.06ZealGood example of how i would expect it to be done is something like the Ancients vs. the Ori in Stargate.
07:28.19ZealOri may have a fucked up view, but they're not relaly evil, just out to convert everyone for their way of thinking. in this case Sargeras is out to just kill destroy everything, which isn't an evil goal exactly.
07:28.39Zeal*to their own way
07:29.07ZealThough i'll add that the Ori just want to cull everyone to use their energy to feed themselves ;)
07:30.24Zealbut their difference mainly between the two sides is a conflict of philosophy on ascension.
07:31.26ZealBut yeah.. sargeras lore is improving, but still not there.
07:36.29ZealBagginsww, where's that from?
07:36.31BagginswwI've split the ealry history stuff
07:36.47Bagginswwzeal you have the book in your hands :p
07:38.27Bagginswwit needs better titles for each legend section
07:38.29Bagginswwi'm tired
07:38.31Bagginswwcan't think of any
07:38.42ZealOpening paragraph still refers to the older lore.
07:39.46Zeal"ever even" pick one ;)
07:41.39Zealoh, and citation link for the encylopedia has 2 brackets instead of 1.
07:41.45Zealbut yeah, nice.
07:42.37Bagginswwok how is the intro paragraph now?
07:43.00Zealgood ^_^
07:43.13BagginswwI think its safe to say he was still a guardian and protector other than that we don't know what he was protecting themf rom LOL
07:43.16Bagginswwold gods only
07:43.28Bagginswwand itw asn't demons that drove him mad
07:43.32Bagginswwor it was ;)
07:43.45BagginswwI know that the demons driving him mad bit is still in game
07:43.57Zealyeah.. well agamar's (or w/e) lore would need a rewrite if they didn't make sargeras a champion first.
07:44.29Zeallol yeah, metzen did use the old gods, just indrectly and not for what we expected! :P
07:44.56Sky2042_i'm hungry
07:45.20Zealbit hard (read: wasted time) to add rectons to wow
07:45.37Zeal*wasted resources
07:45.42Zeallol sky.
07:45.51Zeali am too : /
07:45.59BagginswwOnce a noble warrior for order and peace, Sargeras came to believe that there was a fundamental flaw in the universe, a flaw that made his primary purpose an impossible goal. He decided that the other titans were deeply misguided in trying to establish order throughout creation. Under the circumstances, the struggle was futile. The universe had to be destroyed utterly and remade without the underlying defect. Only then could true
07:46.00Bagginswworder be achieved. Thus, Sargeras conceived of a sweeping campaign to bring about the end of all things: the Burning Crusade.
07:46.02Sky2042nothing like a bit of human corruption for the talk of a god's corruption, eh?
07:46.06Bagginswweven that states he was a warrior for order and peace
07:46.12Bagginswwso we do know that much is true
07:46.40Bagginswwzeal they did retcon a few wow books btw
07:46.45Zealbut i've got a funeral to go to on the 31st, and collection a friend from the airport tomorrow, so i need to spin my sleeping pattern on it's head, so need to keep awake :p
07:46.51Bagginswwlike the RIse of the Horde
07:47.17Zealit was rectoned?
07:47.54Bagginswwya, we have both books archived
07:48.37Bagginswwthat's the only book in the set that was changed I think
07:48.46Zealoh, sky did it! lol
07:48.49Bagginswwoen would have to check to see if the website has ever been updated LOL
07:48.58Zealjust he made a mistake :P
07:49.18Zeal ;)
07:49.20Sky2042i did it?
07:49.45Sky2042check the ingame book
07:50.07Bagginswwthe top version is the ingame book, unless someone edited it :p
07:50.48Bagginswwof course the online version has not been updated
07:50.59Zealtop version? only one.
07:51.12Bagginswwtop version is the ingame version
07:51.24Bagginswwbottom version shows where they differ on the online version
07:51.27Zealthere's onyl one version on that page, as with all.
07:51.42Bagginswwthere are two versions
07:51.46Bagginswwthe one in the box
07:51.50Bagginswwand section below it
07:51.54Zealoh.. shadow pact
07:51.59Zealsorry, didn;t see link
07:52.03Zealthought you meant mine.
07:52.29Bagginswwits the second book int eh rise of the horde set
07:52.41Bagginswwor first book
07:52.47Bagginswwfirst book I guess
07:52.58Sky2042go to page 7
07:53.06Bagginswwoh weird its backwards on line
07:53.47Bagginswwsome differences?
07:53.59Sky2042undoing yourself more than once can be fun!
07:54.40Sky2042i just realized i have a report to do :|
07:54.43Zealso which got updated? online or in-game?
07:54.44Bagginswwnot updated on wowhead
07:54.46Bagginswwits the old version
07:54.53Bagginswwdid someone "fix" the ingame book unofficial
07:55.02Bagginswwin wowwiki
07:55.18Zeali beleive sky through they did, but then put it back, so he should know :P
07:55.20Sky2042mustve; i believe he was probably the same person who fixed the one i just refixed
07:55.39Sky2042i originally fixed, then unfixed, then have now fixed
07:55.56Bagginswwif I have the time I'll have to go hunt the books down and see if there is any change
07:56.14Bagginswwbut ya wowhead just has the old version of shadowpact
07:56.23Sky2042"old"? :|
07:57.04Bagginswwread the bit in the box
07:57.07Bagginswwand read the bit down below
07:57.15Bagginswwthe version down below is the old version
07:57.22Bagginswwwowhead has the old version
07:57.36Bagginswwwhich is beginning to make me think either wowhead isn't up to date
07:57.46Bagginswwor that someone "fixed" the article
07:57.49Zealyeah, not surprised, text in those things probably don't get updated often.
07:58.05Bagginswweither way it needs tob e checked
07:58.15Sky2042i think the wiki broke
07:58.21Zealitem will get updated sure, but the text need to be collected by the addon afaik.
07:58.33Sky2042yup, someone broke the wiki
07:58.40Bagginswwthat place still hurts at 70
07:58.48Bagginswwmages and undead do not mix well
07:58.57Sky2042lrn2kite, nublet
07:58.58Zealwiki fine for me :s
07:59.02BagginswwI'm better with humanoids
07:59.05Sky2042yeah... try editing zeal.
07:59.23Sky2042then check rc to see if edit went through
07:59.35Sky2042of course, sannse's not on... :|
07:59.50Bagginswwok the edits were made by adamg
08:00.20Bagginswwand he got into trouble for editing text on another history of warcraft
08:00.32Bagginswwso I think its safe to say it might be a vandalism
08:00.37Bagginswwsomeone trying to "fix"
08:00.37Sky2042not vandalism
08:00.45Sky2042but then, not correct
08:01.09BagginswwI'm reverting back to the original
08:01.30Bagginswwbased on the fact he was previously warned for editing other books in the series
08:01.33Sky2042no you're not
08:01.43Sky2042i already told you. the wiki's broken
08:01.47Sky2042or was...
08:01.57Bagginswwits not :p
08:02.40Bagginswwback to how it was
08:02.49Bagginswwnow if someoen can prove it altered :)
08:03.00Bagginswwa screenshot of course ;)
08:03.58Zealhm.. think i'll make so food nad go downstairs, wait to see if my delivery comes today. gief my manga.
08:04.01Bagginswwso ya zeal we are back to square one, blizzard may not bother with fixing anything that obscure ;)
08:04.10Bagginswwor they don't care
08:04.29Sky2042try that, next time you get in game
08:04.43Zealsky, what do you actually do at wh now btw?
08:05.39Sky2042i have green color on the forums, and my beatstick / carrot for comments is a bit bigger, and i can delete comments and posts. that's pretty much it.
08:06.18Zealdunno if my mod privaleges have evne been removed yet, weren't last time i bothered to log in.
08:06.18Bagginswwoh boy adamg was modifying most of the articles
08:06.27Bagginswwmost of the history articles
08:06.37Sky2042Bagginsww: yes. some of them got reverted, others did not
08:06.38Bagginswwso its definitely not real
08:06.46[NewsBot]GamePolitics: SCMRPG Designer Reviews Moral Kombat Film -
08:06.48Bagginswwneed to check through thsoe
08:06.49[NewsBot]GamePolitics: Developers Argue For M-rated Games on Nintendo DS -
08:07.41Zealah, nah, i've lost my privaleges now.
08:07.56Sky2042if you want to come back, skosiris won't bite... probably.
08:07.58Zealyou have green text you say? isn't that just you get an isntant +5?
08:08.07Zealno no, not coming back
08:08.11Zealnot touching wh.
08:08.14Sky2042no, the forums let me have green text
08:08.24Sky2042 and etc
08:09.26Bagginswwwow most of adamg posts are bad LOL
08:09.45Bagginswwreverted on other articles too
08:09.50Bagginswwhe ever get banned?
08:10.01Sky2042nah, it wasn't something to be banned for
08:10.15Sky2042tekkub set down a warning (he doesn't need another) and that was that
08:10.45Bagginswwya if he stopped after a warning, thats good
08:11.16Bagginswwreminds me of the time I had to fix all the stuff Dark Tichondrius did to Warcraft II text ;p
08:11.26Bagginswwremoving all references to Azeroth replacing them with STormwind
08:12.31Bagginswwbut ya I'm strongly against alterting of text, unless its a minor fix of a typo, or I was paraphrasing to begin with
08:12.42BagginswwI usualy only do that for brann
08:12.56Sky2042yeah... and then i come and kill it. muahahahahahaha
08:13.11Sky2042actually, I'm rather proud of [[Al'Akir]] and [[Neptulon]]
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08:13.48BagginswwI hate combat sections personally :p
08:14.28BagginswwI like to merge them into all into one paragraph of lore
08:14.46Sky2042yeah... when there isn't any other lore though? :O
08:14.54BagginswwI.E. just blend in the ability names together
08:15.06Bagginswwnot section it
08:15.30Sky2042yeah... lern2paragraph then
08:15.32Bagginswwputting similiar abilities together into their own paragraphs
08:15.45Bagginswwwell the paragraph is about combatin general
08:15.58ZealMidnight is a she? :S
08:16.00Bagginswwif you read the basic combat paragraphs anyways its all about randoma ttack types
08:16.17Sky2042Zeal: eh?
08:16.39BagginswwI don't know
08:16.50Zealattumen's mount
08:17.00Bagginsww its obvious he's form Pandaria ;)
08:17.05Zealjust noticed on wh's ww port it says she.
08:17.54Bagginswwbut ya sky the combat paraphgras usually jump around to different ablities
08:18.14BagginswwI just merge the bit of lore from the abilities sections into those paragraphs
08:18.24Bagginswwespecially where it makes the most sense order wise
08:18.26Zealok, well i'm going downstairs, bbl maybe, perhaps not though.
08:18.55Bagginswwlike if it discusses "flame wreath" hypothetically
08:19.16BagginswwI'd then put the sentence about flame wreath from the ability in that section of the paragraph.
08:22.13Bagginswwwell night all
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08:52.15[NewsBot]The job queue length is currently 24 doing ~1 job/s, done in approx. 24secs.
08:55.12Sky2042jesus {{welcome}} is transcluded to like, 2000 pages
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09:07.59Fisker-yarr Bibi
09:08.03Fisker-we got moar of tehm fags
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09:14.49*** topic/#wowwiki is Chan rules: - UI questions: #wowi-lounge - No trolling/acc trading/emu serv talks, thanks || Press release! || Steam! || We are an official fan site! || 44,000!
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09:23.43xiraaanyone here play a warlock in 3's? wanted to discuss the changes to Soul Siphon and possible build changes next patch, wanted some input :o
09:26.00xiraaif not, anyone know a good place on IRC to discuss arena/class gameplay?
09:26.47[NewsBot]GamePolitics: Rockstar “Spazzed Out Like Little Babies” Says Simpsons Producer -
09:26.50[NewsBot]GamePolitics: New York Times Previews Manhunt 2 -
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11:44.09Adys"Outlands" is the FIRST thing i saw when checking wowwiki main page
11:48.23Adyswowwiki in ie3 courtesy of teo :p
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13:27.21[NewsBot]WoWBlues: 29/10 No 3rd profession at level 80 -
13:27.27[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Season 3 has new stats -
13:37.18[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Season 3 ETA? -
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13:55.09pcj ban
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14:05.24[NewsBot]WoW Insider: Around Azeroth: Improved sun -
14:05.51[NewsBot]WoWBlues: 29/10 Nethaera on Zul'Aman -
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14:13.51[NewsBot]WoWBlues: StarCraft II - Questions & Answers - Batches? -
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14:25.26pcjhi laurly :)
14:26.28laurlyi am not here
14:26.43laurlybroke guilds dkp site beging help from linux guys :)
14:26.55laurlydatabase backups are a good thing
14:27.02laurlyto bad i dont have any
14:27.29pcjdoes your webhost perform them automatically
14:27.30pcjsome do
14:27.45laurlyI r Webhost so that would be a no
14:27.53pcjlol pwned
14:28.36laurlymission is to fix it beofre the kids figure out they have no dkp
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14:31.59pcjwell gl
14:36.27huraxhi laurly who is not here
14:38.01laurlyhey have you guys heard anything about the rumor that they are lowering the epic riding skill from 5k g to 2.5k g ?
14:41.06pcjthey aren't
14:41.15pcjnot in next patch at least
14:41.32foxlitI don't see them ever doing that, tbh
14:41.48foxlitSwift flying mounts aren't really an issue in Northrend
14:42.16pcjmaybe when maelstrom expac comes out and we'll need 375 riding to use aquatic mounts
14:56.43Kirkburn|sleepIt is just that, a rumor
14:57.21Kirkburn|sleepBlizz have already responded to it once, telling people to stop spreading stuff that has no basis :P
15:02.16laurlyfinaly started farming for my epic mount i was kinda hoping
15:03.00KalrothNorthrend will contain no changes to the current mount skill required.
15:03.07KalrothPricing noone can predict :)
15:03.20KalrothI guess if Blizzard feels that too few got the swift mount, then they'll lower it.
15:03.30laurlynorthrend is more then a year away i wouldnt worry abou tit
15:06.45Kirkburn|sleepMore than a year, you say?
15:06.59Kirkburn|sleepI still you are overly pessimistic :P
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15:09.24[NewsBot]WoW Insider: Officers' Quarters: Loot whores -- Are you their pimp? -
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15:12.58pcjnot lol, ban >:(
15:13.06laurlyim a programer its my job to be pessimistic when programing deadlines are conserned even if its not a project im part of :)
15:13.49pcjsay laurly even though you're not here do you have any idea when/if laurlybot is coming back?  or should i stop tagging stuff for laurlybot
15:13.52DuTempetemorning, Darlings
15:13.54pcjmorning DuTempete :)
15:16.47laurlymaybe dusting off laurlybot will take my mind off looking for work issues pcj
15:17.19pcjyay :)
15:17.50laurlylooking for work is depressing
15:18.14DuTempetelaurly, you lost you job?
15:18.26laurlykids are crazy my daugher just came in and asked "when are we going to start decorating for xmass"
15:18.50laurlyDuTempete yeah they ran out of stuff for me to do back in june thats why i started playing with wiki
15:20.10Fisker-laurly foxlit :/
15:20.21Fisker-i require DKDK 8800 GT vendor that's not shg
15:21.21[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Devs...Housing anytime soooon? -
15:21.23laurlywish i lived in kobenhaven i would be all set finding a job :/
15:21.26laurlyliving in the middle of no where sucks
15:21.37Fisker-it's københavn hoho
15:22.36foxlitNever get the people who buy high end video cards
15:23.22foxlitThe performance gain from mid-range cards isn't noticeable in the current generation of games, and the next generation of mid-range cards will beat your current generation card and do it cheaper :/
15:23.43foxlitgain from=difference between them and
15:25.01foxlitAnd dataworld sent me an invalid track & trace number and still hasn't figured out what the heck they did
15:28.37Fisker-dataworld has 8800 GT_
15:29.04Fisker-nope :<
15:29.05foxlitmaybe. maybe not.
15:29.19Fisker-i need it :(
15:29.23Fisker-or i'll become an hero tomorrow
15:30.12foxlitdoesn't make any sense.
15:30.21Fisker-why not?
15:32.48foxlit"need" is somewhat similar to "want" when applied to non-essential objects
15:33.18foxlit"or i'll become a hero" doesn't make sense either - hero is a positive thing, you "need something or (something negative)" is the typical form of that line
15:34.09pcjkirkburn why is wantedpages borked
15:34.13Fisker-harr foxlit
15:34.18Fisker-"An hero" is committing suicide
15:34.30Kirkburn|sleepFrom the guild and server creation stuff
15:34.41pcjSo it'll always only show 120 wanted pages?
15:34.52KirkburnWait, what?
15:34.56pcjoh nvm
15:35.05pcji clicked 20 instead of next 100
15:35.11Kalrothpoor Kirky :(
15:35.17KalrothNow you scared him
15:35.37foxlitFisker-: translating that from somewhere?
15:35.57Fisker-it's 4chan lingo
15:35.59KirkburnI think the pages linking to the server/guild pages just need recaching
15:36.22foxlitRight, so "not English" applies
15:36.31KalrothI wonder if I could sneak mime encoded boobies on my userpage.
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15:37.21[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Mootank - The next level??? -
15:39.13KirkburnI prefer sizable boobies and I cannot prevaricate.
15:39.21pcjYes you can
15:39.25pcjI've seen it
15:39.49KalrothOh, it's a fancy word for lie
15:40.22KalrothOr said in layman terms; to equivocate!
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15:42.19KirkburnYou alternative siblings can't dispute.
15:47.03DuTempeteAs long as there's enough for a mouthful, and not so much that I can't put my hand at least halfway around them, I like all sorts of boobies. :P
15:48.12DuTempetepcj, you didn't fall out of your chair, did you?
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16:01.21[NewsBot]WoWBlues: New S3 gear color please... -
16:05.24[NewsBot]WoW Insider: WoW Moviewatch: Petite Nikita -
16:11.39Kirkburn~lart pcj
16:11.39infobotcalls pcj on the phone ... the lights are on but nobody's home
16:13.04pcjheh as a goblin you can just walk up on the great anvil, no jumping
16:13.51[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Paid character transfer -
16:19.21[NewsBot]WoWBlues: [OOC] Unleashed now defunct. -
16:21.51[NewsBot]WoWBlues: _Ruins of Lorderon Arena on PTR -
16:33.21[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Something blizzard did not want you to know -
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16:34.18Fisker-oh oh Kirkburn now wowwiki will crash and burn!1
16:34.30Bagginswwdidn't wow, have like 3 moons in the sky during early release patches? Then they removed 2 at some point?
16:36.40moveaxhaha what?
16:37.29Bagginswwyou know moons in the sky?
16:37.47moveaxthe things made of cheese with little men living on them?
16:38.25BagginswwAs I remember, and I may be misremebering, there was the white one we still see, a greenish one, and a blueish one.
16:38.54pcjprobably didn't flow well with being able to see azeroth from outland
16:39.22moveaxI think Blizzard have gone a bit made by introducing theoutland
16:39.51moveaxI mean, in the outland the chunk of land that was once where the swirling thing is on the azeroth map?
16:40.13Bagginswwyou can only see Azeroth in one spot in outland. I think that may be a trick of the twisting nether
16:40.37moveaxsee I haven't delved into the story deep enough to udnerstand why the outlands even exists
16:40.48Bagginswwtwisting nether is strange polymorphic realm.
16:41.04Yukinonhow difficult is heroic Underbog?
16:41.05Bagginswwwell if scientifically it shouldn
16:41.26Bagginswwtoutland isn't in the maelstrom
16:41.32Bagginswwthat's different place
16:41.45Bagginswwoutland is another world, once draenor
16:42.19Bagginswwbut ya the moons were removed just before or with the release of the weather patch
16:42.22Bagginswwso that's a long time back
16:42.46Bagginswwtechnically they should have only removed one of the moons
16:42.50Bagginswwthe greenish one
16:43.08Bagginswwbecause there is enough lore in game, and in other sources discussing the name of the white and blue one
16:43.15[NewsBot]Bagginsww meant:
16:53.24[NewsBot]WoW Insider: Is rerolling worth it? -
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17:05.21[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Important: Season 2 Team Qualification -
17:05.27[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Blood Knight Charger (epic/150); Guide -
17:09.48[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Important: Season 2 Team Qualification -
17:09.54[NewsBot][ASSERTATION FAILURE] cameraIndex cam -
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17:23.49[NewsBot]BlizzPlanet: Starcraft: The Board Game - Graphic Design Process -
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17:29.18[NewsBot]WoWBlues: [!] Blizzcon 2k8 Preview and then some ...... -
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17:39.53winkilleryeek, a voice
17:40.09winkillerthe first step to world domination
17:41.06Bagginswwupdated that section to include info from the rpg
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17:44.27Bagginswwso ya there is possibly two sargeras' out there, LOL
17:44.42Bagginswwreal Sargeras and that portion of his soul, heh heh
17:50.37KirkburnGeneral question - how can we get more visitors to WoWWiki?
17:52.02KirkburnImprovements/additions to the wiki, that is
17:52.25pcjDo you want editors or visitors
17:53.43Dottedi think people are a bid afraid to edit the articles,
17:53.45BagginswwMore visitors are nice unless they are evil aliens, hellbent on destroying us :)
17:53.57pcjIsn't there some way fan sites get featured on the website
17:54.00Dottedexcept for vandals ofc ;)
17:54.38Bagginswwevil aliens = vandal/violators ;)
17:54.39KirkburnDotted, any ideas how that could be helped?
17:55.22Dottedsome sort of "we wont hunt you and your family if you mess up this article" kind of sign
17:55.39Dottedi know i was a bit uneasy editing stuff at first
17:55.48KirkburnHmm, I wonder where I could fit that in
17:56.35Kirkburnpcj, we're already a featured site
17:56.58KirkburnHowever, I think our problem is picking out articles/submissions to get other sites to link to
17:56.59pcjI meant in the Community spotlight
17:57.04winkillerDotted: we won't?
17:57.27winkillerI seriously have no clue sadly :(
17:57.28Dottedwinkiller officially we wont, but you know ;););)
17:57.45winkillerI am not that shy to edit, but then I'm classified  nerd and been using wikipedia for years
17:57.51winkillerI only always ask HOW to do it :P
17:57.58winkillerand mess up if I get no answer
17:58.05pcjsomeone needs to add 41 articles real quick so the channel topic can be updated
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17:58.25KirkburnSee, reaching a milestone like 45,000 pages would be reportable
17:58.56winkillerpcj: has some items and ingame objects that aren't in yet
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17:59.17winkillergo ahead, nearly 10 more :P
18:03.08Fisker-don't cry tonight Kirkburn :(
18:03.17Kirkburner, k
18:03.38Fisker-a blue linked wowwiki
18:03.46Fisker-your servers won't be able to handle it!
18:05.25[NewsBot]WoW Insider: Learning a third profession at level 80 -
18:05.36KirkburnFisker-, lol
18:05.44KirkburnIt's almost always the EU ones I notice
18:06.34Fisker-i want a new graphics card :(
18:07.01Kirkburnpcj, you want citations on stuff that's self-evident?
18:07.20KirkburnLines two and three are sourced by their links
18:07.27pcjYeah, ok
18:08.44pcjI think {{Addon}} should be changed to be more like {{Guild}}, for consistency
18:13.41BagginswwWe should fight Mecha-Hogger in Northrend ;)
18:14.19pcjOr fight Hogger at the same time as Headless Horseman to make the epics he drops justifiable
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18:21.52[NewsBot][ASSERTATION] cameraIndex cameras.cou -
18:26.57Bagginsww I've added the line that states that Eredar were the first sentient demons to join the Burning Legion
18:27.09Bagginswwthis means that pitlords and nathrezim came later :p
18:29.52[NewsBot]WoWBlues: 4000 honor from Daily BG Quests? Confirm? -
18:30.29Bagginswwbut I guess they were always said to be the first among the burning legion
18:37.52[NewsBot]WoWBlues: The Official ▌Dreaded MondaY▐ Task Force ™ © -
18:41.22[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Priests: Focused Will -
18:41.28[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Priests: Focused Will -
18:47.22[NewsBot]WoWBlues: OK wtf is with Blizzcon Misinformation -
18:47.28[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Elemental -
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19:01.52[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Guild Relations Program and RP Servers -
19:05.22[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Dev/CM response magic 8 ball -
19:05.29[NewsBot]WoWBlues: New dance in WotLK -
19:05.43pcjaren't exploits
19:06.26KirkburnGood question
19:06.36KirkburnThey kinda are
19:06.50KirkburnBtw, that last wowblue - Bornakk says "We still have to wait before releasing information on how the new dances will work with Wrath of the Lich King." ... that sounds promising
19:07.06KirkburnLike there's more to it than just adding new dances to the rotation
19:08.01Fisker-you'll have to do a perfect combo of the the pylons are trap balls, and if you don't you get banned
19:08.10Fisker-each time you /dance of course
19:08.28Zizanzui'mmissing to type numbers with horde
19:09.25[NewsBot]WoW Insider: Announcing WoW Insider's Hallow's End Costume Contest! -
19:13.20KirkburnOoh, can finally hide the Main Page heading
19:14.06LukianIs Uldam ever going to be open / an instance?
19:14.21KirkburnNot really a question any of us can answer :P
19:14.29Kirkburn"Hopefully", work for you? ;)
19:14.34Lukiansure :)
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19:15.29pcjThey said it was in WotLK
19:15.46KirkburnUlduar, pcj
19:15.58*** part/#wowwiki Zizanzu_ (
19:16.22pcjBah, they said Uldum, I read it somewhere
19:17.31*** join/#wowwiki Zizanzu_ (
19:19.16pcjhah nvm then
19:19.48*** join/#wowwiki Zizanzu_ (
19:21.25[NewsBot]WoWBlues: 80 does not have a nice ring to it... -
19:25.52[NewsBot]WoWBlues: _PTR Scheduled Maintenance Tue -
19:38.30Zealactually, someone said both, but they screwed up pcj
19:38.40Zealthey've since said ulduar only.
19:39.00pcja bit late there
19:39.01ZealUldum is still on their "to do list"
19:39.49Zealnot really, info to add which wasn;t in the blue ;)
19:40.46Zealbeleive they also named ulduar wrong in the early previews too, been fixed now.
19:40.51pcjthe question was already answered however
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19:41.25Zeali'm making you look less clueless though, cos you can blame blizz for not knowing ;)
19:41.28[NewsBot]WoW Insider: More polls on the WoW forums -
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20:04.07KirkburnHmm, I want to see if banned users can edit their talk pages
20:04.29KirkburnBut we lack Voluspa ><
20:06.04KalrothBan me, Kirk!
20:06.23KalrothI'll go post goatse pictures on my talk page
20:07.23[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Bornakk is borg -
20:13.28[NewsBot]WoW Insider: First Illidan China kill by The Seven -
20:15.55[NewsBot]MMO Champion: Season 2 qualification, Focused Will, BG daily quests -
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20:29.52[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Arcatraz Run - Did I do something wrong? -
20:37.21KirkburnSite timing out?
20:37.59Olisonno, got through
20:38.01kadrahilwait, i lied
20:38.05Olisonhaha :D
20:38.11kadrahilnice timing
20:45.30[NewsBot]WoW Insider: Blue Notes: Arena news -
20:53.52[NewsBot]WoWBlues: The breaking news message -
20:57.22[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Heroic dailies vs BG dailies... -
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21:05.25[NewsBot]WoWBlues: You're wrong Slouken...(throttling) -
21:17.52[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Post deleted (Q about becoming a gm..?) -
21:23.52pcjwhy are you creating all those mediawiki pages kirkburn
21:24.17*** join/#wowwiki sannse (n=me@wikimedia/
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21:24.24KirkburnNot creating, editing
21:24.32KirkburnDespite what it shows, yes
21:24.45*** mode/#wowwiki [-o sannse] by sannse
21:24.47KirkburnHey sannse :P
21:24.54pcjI see
21:25.45Kirkburnpcj, basically I'm going through wikipedia special:allmessages list, and seeing what improvements can be made to wowwiki's
21:27.23[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Error reading source feed. -
21:33.52[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Blizzard, You've Broken Rogues. -
21:36.48pcjugh TOC = fail
21:37.23Zealwtb control over ToC
21:38.56pcj__NOTOC__, __TOC__, __FORCETOC__?
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21:40.15Zealno, i mean in regards to styling, format and depth.
21:40.33pcjah i see
21:41.25[NewsBot]WoW Insider: New cards and big tourneys at Darkmoon Faire Philly -
21:44.41Zealpcj, you should be able to tell me this. how does .collapsible work?
21:44.59pcjHang on
21:45.21Zealthat much i know, i mean does it onyl work on tables, what's required to make it look right etc.
21:45.46pcj{| class="darktable collapsible"
21:45.48pcjFor example
21:46.23Zealyeah, but does it only work correctly on tables? :P
21:46.35pcjWhat else would you use it on :|
21:46.55Zeala div..
21:47.02pcjAh, no
21:47.12Zealdarn : /
21:47.26pcjIt collapses everything except the first row of the table
21:47.32Zeali see.
21:48.00pcjWhat are you trying to do
21:48.32Zeal was going to make each date header collapsible.
21:48.50KirkburnTo style the toc, you can enclose it in divs and style that
21:49.00pcjCan't do it with tables?
21:49.05KirkburnAs for depth, I think that is possible, but I forget how
21:49.19Zeali could, but it'd wrong to do so :P
21:49.46Zealand that's not what i meant Kirkburn. i mean like changing it to a list format, and styling the list as you see fit. isntead of it's crappy table.
21:49.49[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Hardware sound acceleration is back -
21:50.02Zealhorizontal toc ftw.
21:50.37KirkburnI wanted to hide the Main Page header, but it doesn't work on the wowwiki custom skin ><
21:50.38Zealwould have thought the tooltip template showed the power of using lists correctly ;)
21:50.49KirkburnMonobook, fine, the source code works, but not wowwiki
21:51.04KirkburnYeah, not quite sure what's up there
21:51.34Zealcan't you just hide it i nthe css?
21:51.34pcjWhat piece of code is it kirkburn
21:51.46KirkburnThe wowwiki skin doesn't have the <body  class="mediawiki ns-0 ltr page-Main_Page"> for pages, it just shows <body  class="ns-0 ltr"> :( ... annoying, I wanted to use it to hide the Main Page heading
21:51.51Zealie. #pageheader {display: none;}
21:51.56Kirkburn(copied from #wikia)
21:52.11KirkburnBut how can the skin directly affect the source code?
21:52.21pcjwhat do you mean
21:52.27pcjIt does
21:52.49Zealskins customises the code too.
21:53.04KirkburnYes, er, I recall using the word "how" in that question :P
21:53.18Zealin the skin's files somewhere :P
21:53.24pcjWell, you can do it via JS kirkburn
21:53.29KirkburnNo, just no :P
21:53.44KirkburnI want it to be done properly :)
21:54.03KirkburnMonobook and the new skin will be fine for it, just need to get wowwiki updated somehow
21:54.22pcjMove [[Main Page]] to [[<span class="MPHeader">Main Page</span>]]
21:54.57Zealjust chuck it in the css "#top h1.firstHeading { display: none; }"
21:55.05pcjThat would be for all pages
21:55.15Zealoh, i thought that's what he wanted :P
21:55.17pcjno h1.firstHeading { display:none; }
21:58.06Zealwhere would you put your little hint message then? :P
21:58.20KirkburnThe banner just under the logo :)
21:58.40KirkburnAnd have that rotate once a minute
21:59.24pcjKirkburn, can't you add something to the main page itself that would take it out?
21:59.24Zeallol, kk.
21:59.33Kirkburnpcj, nope :(
21:59.41Zealwith css3 you could do it :P
22:00.02KirkburnI want to have random messages appear, but don't know a way with what we have atm
22:00.51pcjYou could do it not random but new each minute :P
22:01.32pcjLooks like second, actually
22:01.54Kirkburnpcj, oh?
22:02.11KirkburnWait, I just said that
22:02.35pcjCreative use of {{CURRENTTIMESTAMP}} and {{#expr:}} will get results
22:03.24Gryphenreq random extension
22:04.08KirkburnI think wikipedia use that in some fashion
22:04.52KirkburnBy which I mean,
22:05.26[NewsBot]WoW Insider: PTR Notes: BG Daily = 400 honor, Focused Will and Elemental under consideration -
22:05.33pcjLooks like they have an extension for current minute tho
22:05.49pcjShouldn't be too hard to make it close to that tho
22:06.21KirkburnWe don't have current minute?
22:06.23Zealsame at the helpful tips thingy, with day of the week.
22:06.35pcjDoesn't list it, haven't tried it
22:06.43Kirkburnoh, I see
22:06.59pcjYeah, doesn't work
22:07.11KirkburnThe template?
22:07.39pcjWon't work either :P
22:07.55pcjWait yes it will :|
22:08.42KirkburnAwesome, a little project to work on then :)
22:09.02KirkburnMight start it later, or tomorrow
22:09.37pcjShouldn't be too hard to do
22:09.43pcjWould just need the messages
22:09.51KirkburnAye, on my todo list :P
22:10.33KirkburnOne year ago we had no dynamic stuff on the Main Page ><
22:10.34Zealwell you might want a second expression between min and what you plan to display, unless you plan to have 60 things.
22:10.47KirkburnAnd I mean literally nothing changed from day to day
22:10.49pcjJust don't make it mod 60
22:11.04KirkburnWHat does mod 60 do
22:11.10pcjmodular division
22:11.17pcj{{CURRENTMINUTE}} / 60
22:11.18[NewsBot]pcj meant:
22:11.20pcjreturns the remainder
22:11.35KirkburnAh, okay
22:12.10Zealhm.. doesn't seem to be changing, stuck on 9 :S
22:12.37pcjbah &action=purge
22:13.29KirkburnIt doesn't have to reliably update, so long as it does :P
22:13.52pcj will always update it
22:13.58pcjI think the template call will update it too
22:14.05pcjJust normal browsing doesn't do it
22:14.07Zealhopefully it will, yeah.
22:16.15KirkburnNow we have 3 featured dailies, 2 news boxes, 1 notice (and one announcement)
22:16.58KirkburnGoing to see about adding another temporary "news" box, for PTR info, and rotating notices
22:17.22[NewsBot]WoWBlues: What I like about brooms... -
22:20.20Zeali only show the wowwiki news box anyways ;)
22:20.56pcjyeah, you can thank me for adding the save state part of it later
22:21.45Zeallol, nice
22:21.52[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Change color for purple items to diff color? -
22:22.26Zealwhat's next, we can reshuffle and order the boxes and change column layout? ;)
22:23.19pcjthat would be kind of cool though, make wowwiki the google news of WoW news
22:24.38KirkburnThat would be ... difficult
22:24.48pcjkirkburn runs from challenges :o
22:25.00KirkburnI run from javascript!
22:25.16Zealhm.. seems i may have finally lost
22:25.27KirkburnWhere could the PTR news box go?
22:25.50KirkburnBasically a box for links to PTR content
22:25.59KirkburnPatch notes, instance pages, etc
22:26.42Zealwell i don't like it how it is atm. left is a few large content boxes, right is lots of little ones.
22:26.56Zealbit one sided, espeically when you stop hiding.
22:27.03Zeal*start :S
22:27.21pcjI really think selected article index could be broken up
22:29.16KirkburnLimitations are: it has to be simple and easily updated, and the ad must be above the fold, and
22:29.25KirkburnAnd, er, good
22:30.06KirkburnHow could the article index be split?
22:30.38pcj<+Zeal> Portals!
22:30.45pcjJust link the major pages
22:31.12KirkburnThose are the major pages :P
22:31.40KirkburnSeriously, it's like impossible to cut them down
22:32.04ZealProblem is, the ww structure sucks pcj, there are no "major pages" ;)
22:33.28Zealhm, .mobi is pretty cheap.
22:33.33KirkburnYou suck.
22:33.58Zealwhy is .tv and .cc so expensive.
22:34.12KirkburnCause only companies with lots of money want them
22:34.18Zeal".tv is the domain extension for Tuvalu. Due it's popularity with the media and tv-fansites it is open to all."
22:34.36Zealdid not know it was for a country :P
22:35.06Zeal".cc is the domain extension for the Cocos Islands. .cc is often used when the preferred .com or .net is unavailable."
22:36.11Kirkburn*sigh*, I need reasons to leave the house
22:36.11pcj kirkburn, ban
22:37.26Zealwow, he even provided a link to his community, so helpful.
22:37.52[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Help for Leo -
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22:38.39Zealhey Sky2042_afk
22:40.27Sky2042_afkor byebye, as it were. :P
22:41.12Zealpfft :p
22:45.25[NewsBot]WoW Insider: An American player in the EU realms -
22:52.34Kirkburnlol -
22:54.26*** join/#wowwiki A2` (
22:57.32Zealthink i'll have some fun in photoshop, bored.
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23:13.22[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Guild Bank ownership scenarios! -
23:33.26[NewsBot]WoW Insider: Last few days for Headless Horseman farming -
23:37.19[NewsBot]WoWBlues: The Virtue of AV weekend and 15 minute AVs -
23:45.20[NewsBot]WoWBlues: Interface action failed because of an AddOn -
23:58.19Zealcan't beleive i'm willingly editing wikipedia x_x
23:59.11pcjYou aren't actually editing wikipedia, wikipedia is editing you to make you think you're editing it

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