irclog2html for #wowwiki on 20070225

00:00.44ZealMMOSG goes into explaining the blurring of the genre
00:01.47ZealBasically, the battlenet portion of WC3 would fall under MMOSG
00:02.04Zealso would most things in MP games
00:02.51Zealbut would you call in an MMORPRTSSG? i doubt it.
00:03.29ZealMMO really is a silly genre anyways.
00:03.39Zealas it can be only one element of the game
00:03.47Zeallike saying MP is a genre..
00:03.57Zealdoesn't mean it doesn't have SP too.
00:06.16ZealLotRO = RPG w/Online SP, Online Co-Op, Online MP, MMOSG. That's what i'm seeing.
00:07.40Zealit's more that there should be a clearer definition of playing and social interaction. MMOSG isn't realistically possible. I don't play IRC.. >_>
00:10.31Zealif everything in WoW was instanced, except for capital cities, you'd have RPG w/Online SP, Online Co-Op, Online MP, and massively online social interaction and economy gameplay elements.
00:11.31Zealtoo many genre crossovers, lol.
00:11.45Zealanyways.. bored now >_>;
00:12.11Teomyrdid you realize that you've been talking about MMORPGs for two hours now?
00:12.58Zealfun :p
00:13.17Zeallol, MMOTycoon Game :p
00:13.36Zealguess that's what the economy gameplay elements would fall under
00:14.11Teomyrlike many browsergames
00:14.50Zealapparently they get their own genre >_>
00:15.35Zealreally, genres make little sense when they're so convoluted. same with music and probably anything else.
00:16.44ZealNilhilum have downed mag
00:16.45Teomyri'm not a big fan of putting things into strict categories either
00:17.54Zealwell, the key thing with categories, is to remember what you're categorizing by, and never forgetting it.
00:18.22Teomyrmakes sense
00:19.52Zealotherwise you end up blurring the lines and overlapping. otherwise you end up with stupid things like MMO, RTS, RPG, Puzzle, Action, FPS, Driving, Tycoon, Simulation, Space, Flight, Fishing, Shooting, Platform.. and so on..
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00:21.40Zealit doesn't require a fairly rigid concept of what is possible though.
00:21.55Zealwhich is possibly where game genres could be forgiven..
00:22.01Zeal*does require
00:22.50Zealbut i find it unlikely people couldn't forsee Sims or MMO's for example..
00:29.12Zeal"*old women holds up large bladed knife* When you get than under your ribs *taps point* it doesn't feel good.." ... wtf? O_o
00:35.26winkillerZeal: there were times were people didn't even foresee broadband or flatrates
00:35.49winkilleror even volume-based online charges
00:36.10Zeallol, i know that, but that implementation and technology. game genres are only really limited by the imagination.
00:36.38winkillerif it _solely_ depends on not-avalibale technology..
00:36.45Zealnot really
00:36.59winkillerMUDs were mmos, partly
00:37.04winkillerand those are old
00:37.06Zealeven if the net didn;t exist, you could still fore see an MMO, just not how it could work.
00:37.18winkillerpoint taken
00:37.36winkillerbut what exactly did you mean by "but i find it unlikely people couldn't forsee Sims"
00:37.45winkillerfrom what time do you speak?
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00:38.08Kirkburn|afkIf anyone was wondering where 2.0.9 went ... "2.0.9 is a Taiwan-only release."
00:40.31Zealfrom the time the idea of a game was every concieved :p
00:40.48Zealah, any details as to what it did Kirkburn|afk?
00:43.13Zeal"Fixed eye textures" ;p
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00:43.51winkillerI am so bored, I am doing the coin of ancestry quests atm
00:44.05Zeali got 6 atm
00:44.10winkiller75 horde rep each :P
00:44.17Zealdoes the quest reset each year?
00:44.23winkillerno idea
00:44.27Zeali hope so..
00:44.49Zealcos theres no way a low level player can do it
00:45.25Zealwhen it was first implemented, the invation didn't have a duration, so that was fair enough.
00:45.45Zealbut then they added it, so doing it at a levle before 60 meant you were penalized
00:45.52Zealalso noticed they stack in 100's, lol
00:46.03Zealso suggests repeatable.
00:46.18winkillernah, it were ~60 last year
00:46.24winkillerguess they added some
00:46.41Zealdoubt it
00:46.46winkillerI got 5 on my 1x warrior o/
00:46.56winkillerand making the 10 full on my 64 druid now
00:47.13winkillerwhile waiting for my girlfriend to make the last 10% to 70, so I can go to sleep :P
01:02.14Kirkburn|afk1am ... I'd better do some work!
01:09.54*** topic/#wowwiki by Kirkburn|afk -> Discuss all wiki issues here! Channel info: | RC list: [[ WoWWiki:RC ]] | UI questions? Join #wowi-lounge | 2.0.10 now in testing!
01:11.14bleetahbe aware that the first release of the 2.0.10 build has broken OpenGL, and may not work on Macs without setting UIFaster to 0
01:11.33bleetahor on Wine.. or on Windows if you're using OpenGL. Blizz have said it'll be fixed in the next PTR build.
01:13.42Zealgg @ fail
01:13.54Zealwell i'm gunna go watch tv, bbl
01:16.36bleetahI wasted about 12 hours chasing it down with Wine devs, only to have the issue confirmed by a Blue in the Mac forums.
01:17.24bleetahwho then followed up my 'well it'd be nice if someone had followed up the original report in the test forum' with a 'we knew about it before release, but figured we wanted the testing this weekend instead of a delay'.. I refrained from 'then wtf wasn't it mentioned in the patch notes'
01:18.17zealand even if they knew, why didn't the main support forum reply first?
01:18.48bleetahleft hand/right hand once again showing a distinct lack of communication, methinks ;)
01:25.05bleetahneedless to say, my head still hurts from the crashcourse in OpenGL ;)
01:36.41Kirkburn|afkIt's all learning bleetah :)
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01:53.06bleetahKirkburn|afk: the only thing I learned was that it didn't seem to be a Wine problem, and that people staring blankly at source code is amusing :)
02:18.08Kirkburn|afkbleetah, lol
02:19.21Kirkburn|afkI heard that Wine causes many problems, including instability, slowdown and loss of bladder control
02:20.10bleetahas well as many shags and boobies
02:20.24Kirkburn|afkAye, those too
02:20.42bleetahon, or away from, the rock
02:20.53bleetahalthough the rock's handy for the aforementioned bladder problems
02:21.20Kirkburn|afkIndeed, very handy for the aforementioned bladder problems
02:21.35bleetahnot so hot for spotted dick, tho
02:22.06Kirkburn|afkTis a pity, though I heard Fanny Craddock was a fan of it
02:24.20bleetahwas fanny cradock a gypsy tart?
02:24.41bleetahor a bedforshire clanger?
02:24.51Kirkburn|afkBtw, check the second floated quote in this story -
02:24.53Kirkburn|afkNote the name
02:25.27bleetahor did she have a sticky date?
02:26.01bleetahlol Kirkburn|afk
02:26.42Kirkburn|afkI must say, I do wonder if this was Fanny's -
02:27.16Kirkburn|afkYay that Google gave me two pages of porn before I found that :P
02:29.02bleetahhmm, I didn't realise it was only Aussies who have sticky dates on their supermarket shelves
02:29.50bleetahmind you, there's a subrub in Sydney -> Rooty Hill.. so I shouldn't be suprised
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02:35.04Kirkburn|afkbleetah, it wouldn't surprise me if there were places there called Buggerme Creek or Wehadeileen Hill
02:35.45Kirkburn|afkI love what happens when people run out of names for places :)
02:37.14bleetahI know there's a town in the Austrian Alps called Wank
02:38.06bleetahand I've got a photo of myself at the sign indicating I'm entring Chaos in Portugal.. I was too afraid to venture further into the town
02:45.42Kirkburn|afkI remember finding a cafe in Italy called Spleen Cafe
02:45.50Kirkburn|afkIn fact, I'm looking at the picture now
02:46.00Kirkburn|afkSafe to say, we didn't eat there :P
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03:00.50Kirkburn|afkAssuming this can be tested, we should probably link to this on the wiki -
03:01.01Kirkburn|afkIt's an AH gem finder :D
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03:10.36Kirkburn|afkOkay, off now
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03:19.12zealthat addon seems rather pointless to me
03:19.17zealbut meh
03:19.32zealwait until 2.1 to fix it
03:19.48zealthey've said new AH cats are coming
03:19.52zealincluding gems
03:20.12zealthink that's supposed to be before 2.1
03:21.10zealdon't forget the town of myanus from jackass ;)
03:21.29zeal"x is pumping in myanus" .. :p
03:21.53zealanyways, i'm off to bed now
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03:22.45zealnn all
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05:33.18Bagginswwwhy does teron gorefiend have an orc body?
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05:53.45Montag_Teron Gorefiend was a dead orc raised during the First War.
05:53.54Montag_He's one of the Old Horde Death Knights.
05:54.42Montag_Lemme reconnect.
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05:55.58bleetahwould it be unreasonable to add 'morlock' to the Pop Culture references, and state that it's a plausible origin of the 'mulock' name?
05:56.38bleetahI'm trying to think of an possible Eloi connection
06:12.05Montaggbleetah: That's a good question. I think if I knew more about morlocks/elois I might be able to answer it. =c)
06:12.07MontaggGood thought, though.
06:12.18BagginswwTeron Gorefiend was human skeleton with a orc spirit in the second game
06:12.48Bagginswwthe story is in the warcraft II Manual :)
06:12.49MontaggBagginsww: Interesting. Thought he was just your average pre-Scourge Death Knight.
06:13.19Bagginswwya like all the pre-scourge death knights they were risen bones of knights of Azeroth
06:13.27Bagginswwinfused with the spirits of the warlocks
06:13.41Bagginswwtheir truncheons were infused with the spirits of the necrolytes
06:14.05Bagginswwby Azeroth I mean the kingdom, not the world
06:14.36BagginswwI suppose Teron could have gotten his old body back
06:14.50Bagginswwand certainly his spirit should look orcish
06:15.50MontaggHmm.. Maybe they decided to make pre-Scourge Death Knights orcish in order to differentiate them from Scourge Death Knights.
06:16.04MontaggAnd there's nothing to stop them from rearranging the bones, per say/
06:16.05bleetahMontagg: Morlocks and Eloi are the two species of humans that we have evolved into that were encountered in the future by the lead character in HG Wells' time machine. The morlocks being the ones hidden underground, uncultured etc. etc. whilst the Eloi were the toga wearing upperclass aboveground
06:16.12BagginswwI don't know pre-scourge were different looke dmore like Ring Wraiths
06:16.19bleetah*HG Well's novel 'Time Machine'
06:16.45Montaggbleetah: The only knowledge I have of them comes from "In the Beginning there was the Command Line."
06:17.01BagginswwI don't really like the scourge death knights, they look too human :p
06:17.08MontaggThey were, though.
06:17.23BagginswwI just mean artistically they aren't as creative
06:17.52Bagginswwlook like over the top villainous dark knights from other fantasies LOL
06:18.23bleetahMontagg: stephenson directly took that from Wells
06:18.39Montaggbleetah: I know. But I'm indicating the limited nature of my understanding. =c)
06:18.46bleetahheh, k
06:19.13bleetahjust I was watching Wor Of The Worlds last night, and it occurred to me there weren't any Wells references.. then it hit me ;)
06:20.53bleetahput it this way, I'd almost lay money on there being a direct connection in the game designer's mind insofar as the nomenclature goes. more so than many of the other alleged references on the wowwiki page ;)
06:21.11bleetahbut I'm still stuck thinking if there's an Eloi reference somewhere
06:21.21bleetahmight just have to read the book again
06:21.44Bagginswweloi and morlocks are in WoW? or you mean connection between morlocks and murlocks?
06:22.28bleetahyeah, I just added Morlocks to the pop culture reference page on wowwiki, I'm now trying to think if the Eloi are also referenced in a similar fashion (ie, a renamed mob)
06:22.37bleetahor npc
06:24.28bleetahI *guess* combining Eloi and Luna, one almost reaches 'Elune', but that's stretching it a bit for my taste beyond mere speculation.
06:25.39bleetahanyways, time for some Red Dwarf indulgence, ttfn
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07:26.55pakozanyone around?
07:51.11MontaggSomewhat. =c)
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07:59.10ThisisSky2042or morning for some of you :X
07:59.21MontaggA little bit of both here.
08:04.36ThisisSky2042we really need to get {{tooltip}} on the item page ;_;
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15:00.08Zeallo all
15:01.07Zeal<Bagginsww> and certainly his spirit should look orcish <-- it is his spirit you fight. he has no physical body. there's no issue.
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15:55.30Kirkburn|afktekkub1, interesting - you nick collided before logging into the channels. Using a login script? Cause you could probably get it to change back to Tekkub automagically too
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15:58.47Zealhey Kirkburn|afk
15:59.02Zealguess tekkub1 has died
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16:14.18Zealstupid mirc
16:14.49Zealif a server reports it's name differently than what's in the server lsit, mirc uses the reported name, so when you next connent, it connects both.
16:15.05ZealFreenode = freenode and WoWIRC = MMOIRC >_<
16:19.30Zealand theres no way to change it to freenode >_<
16:20.32tekcubno kirk, someone probably woke my computer at home
16:20.46tekcubwhich raises the question, what the fuck is he doing on my comp
16:20.51tekcubwhen he claims to be in bed
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16:52.55ZealKirkburn|afk, test in IE7 for me ;) it doesn't work for me, dead window : /
16:53.02Zealjsut get a dead window and music
16:53.05Zealworks fine in FF.
16:54.30equiraptorWorks in Safari. It's a bit slow on my iBook, but it works.
16:55.49Zeal: /
16:55.56Zealthink there's soem shitty coding going on
16:56.03Zealeven the dev site is slow to load in ie7
16:56.26Zealmissed the beta it seems.. ffs
16:56.29Zealno one told me :(
16:56.38equiraptorMaybe I should update this Windows box and grab IE7.
16:56.57equiraptorI only have Windows on it for the sake of Need for Speed: Porsche Unleashed, so I don't really care if some stuff doesn't work. :)
16:57.10Kirkburn|afkFine for me, Zeal
16:57.25Zeallame Kirkburn|afk :(
16:57.34Kirkburn|afkHowever, the very fact it's an entirely flash website annoys me
16:57.40Zealaye, same
16:58.27Zealhad stalker pre-ordered since the begining of last year, heh.
16:58.59Kirkburn|afkYou can't even use scrolling on the text windows
16:59.15Zealmousewheel > scroll bar
16:59.31Kirkburn|afkNot only that, it's using half my CPU
16:59.37Zealanyways, gotta go cook food and eat, bbl
16:59.44Zealthat's flash for ya
16:59.55equiraptorOh, yeah, I should be finding lunch.
17:00.00Kirkburn|afkFlash doesn't have to be so crappily overdone :/
17:00.22Kirkburn|afkIt complements a websites, it shouldn't replace it :)
17:00.46Kirkburn|afkHere's hoping Stalker is good anyway
17:00.54Kirkburn|afkI think PC Gamer has a review next month
17:01.05Kirkburn|afkWas supposed to be this month, but the game wasn't ready
17:13.56MontaggI love how blood elves alluva sudden don't understand Common.
17:16.07Kirkburn|afkWizards did it
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17:39.39MontaggI think the language patterns of Orcish are so strange that they had to forget Common to learn them.
17:39.54MontaggThat's my pet retcon. ;-)
17:40.17MontaggIt also makes Thrall a genius.
17:41.27MontaggOff-topic: In my opinion, Lord of the Rings was an incredible series because Peter Jackson successfully combined the genres of Fantasy and the War Movie.
18:10.40tequinibut weren't those already combined in the novels?
18:10.52tequinihe brought them from the novel to the screen
18:21.50Kirkburn|afkTrue, but it had never been done before
18:41.32Zealwell the MP i'm hoping will make for a good replacement to CS, considering the gameplay was developed based on it.
18:42.05ZealSP i'm sure will be good, even if they did decide to drop MMO aspect.
18:42.49Zealthe AL should make up for the loss of that.
18:45.12Zealgod the D&D movie sucks..
18:45.21Zeali forgot how badly
18:45.53Zealeven the sets and cgi sucked..
18:50.33tequiniwhy are they nurfing druid so hard? :(
18:52.00Zealbecause tree huggers always need something to complain about it, so blizzard thought they'd show they care about their needs ;)
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19:14.18Kirkburn|afkMy druid housemate completely agrees with most of the druids changes
19:14.59ThraeNew Druid changes in 2.0, or the latest patch?
19:15.06Kirkburn|afkLatest patch
19:15.13Kirkburn|afkHis DPS in bear form was way way ott
19:15.32Zealbut nerfing his health too?
19:15.38Kirkburn|afkIt didn't
19:15.51Kirkburn|afkOne of his guild members checked - he actually gained health
19:15.52Zealit changed health to stamina
19:15.54Zealthat's an nerf
19:16.02Kirkburn|afkApparently not
19:16.02Zealpossibly getting a stamina buff
19:16.17Zealie, 15% stamina increase
19:16.24Zealnot looekd at what talents offer that
19:16.34Zealbut its a nerf to everyone without such a talent.
19:16.39Kirkburn|afkAs I say, he checked and he gained health
19:16.49Zealand as i said, probably his talent :p
19:16.58Kirkburn|afkYes, so it's not a nerf for him
19:17.18ThraeWhere's the patch notes?
19:17.30Kirkburn|afkOn Blizz website
19:17.49xaqueis the latest patch 2.0.8 or 2.0.9?
19:18.01Kirkburn|afk2.0.10 will be next
19:18.04Kirkburn|afk2.0.8 is current
19:18.09Kirkburn|afk2.0.9 was Taiwan only
19:18.14xaqueoh, okay
19:18.21Zealstill on 2.0.8 everywhere else
19:18.57Kirkburn|afkWoW is taking over so many Google search results these days :P
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19:19.50Kirkburn|afkSearch "druid" for example, and look at the results :)
19:20.52Thraebah worldofwarcraft's site only has 2.0.5
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19:22.23Zealhuh Thrae?
19:22.51Thraeworldofwarcraft's page only has 2.0.5 notes and below
19:24.01Zealweird :s
19:30.05Gnarfozdrrr wowwiki timing out on me :\
19:31.54Zealgeting some really weird flash and javascript issues..
19:32.02Zealie javascript not loading right, flash flickering
19:32.08Zealthink i need to restart :S
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19:49.41Thrae <-- doesn't have any mention of Druids in latest patch?
19:53.34Zealtest notes
19:53.37Zealnot live
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20:32.09Shadowedso what category would something on name plate modification go in anyway, API?
20:38.46Gnarfoznaw, your addon does not supply an API as its main function, does it? ^^
20:41.08ShadowedNot an addon, just general information on how name plates work and ways you can modify them
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21:24.06GnarfozShadowed: no clue :D
21:27.26bleetahjust so you're aware, there is gunna be another PTR build somestage.. whether the changes change... we'll have to wait and see
21:32.07Zealaye, we (well me atleat) know bleetah :p
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22:11.55Zealhey Kirkburn :P
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22:54.01TekkubZeal, that formatting ain't bad, but the blue background makes the links hard to read
22:54.17Zealmake it darker if ya want
22:54.19Tekkubboth red links and blue ones :P
22:54.23Zealfien for me though
22:54.30Zeallol, both are fine for me..
22:55.02Zealif anything, the neutral one is hard to read.
22:56.30Tekkubvisited blue and stub red look aweful
22:57.36Zealwell that doesn't help because the iamge is compressed to fuck
22:57.36Zealred looks fine
22:57.36Zealas do normal links
22:57.38Zealvisisted however, granted
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22:58.25Zealimo, it's cos visited link colour sucks :p
22:58.55Zealit's verging on violet, heh.
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23:03.30KirkburnBtw, if there are any angry priests here -
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23:07.21Tekkuband Zeal, re: your style edits... WTB CSS PST
23:07.53Tekkubjust looking at all that code makes me not want to even screw with it
23:08.19Tekkubwhereas if I could edit a single chunk of CSS........
23:08.57Zealyou can mostly c&p it
23:09.15Tekkubpfft, effort
23:10.00Zealanything with &nbsp; before the rep column, can be put before or after a bar cell. and then just change the colspans
23:10.23KirkburnUm, isn't there a CSS property to do border like that?
23:10.41KirkburnI'll reword that ... this is a CSS property to do that
23:11.30Zealno, not like that Kirkburn
23:11.59Zealit's crap
23:12.13Zealand the colours are chosen by the browser
23:12.45Zealand it doesn't take into account when you want borders to collapse (and border-collapse is too over eager to be useful)
23:17.18*** join/#wowwiki willskills (
23:26.38KirkburnDid some tests with "outset", yup IE7 and FF2 do it completely differently
23:26.57KirkburnIE7 is the one in the wrong, but I know why  it's still like that
23:27.26KirkburnThe devs didn't want to risk breaking many people's pages with IE7. Hopefully IE8 :)
23:27.41Zealwhat do you meant Kirkburn, dirrectnly how?
23:27.58Kirkburn"dirrectnly" ?
23:28.04KirkburnHow did I test it?
23:28.07Zealand i know FF does border left and right full height, while border top and bottom drop the pixel on the ends
23:28.15Zeal*different :S
23:28.27KirkburnI did border:1px #XXX outset
23:28.53KirkburnIE7 darkens the #XXX over the entire thing (grrr), whereas FF2 takes the #XXX to be the top and left borders
23:29.06Zealwhere as, windows, even as it does in it's OS, does each border 1px short, so left overlaps bottom, bottom overlaps right, right overlaps top, top overlaps left.
23:29.17KirkburnThis has nothing to do with spacing
23:29.22Zealer.. i would choose IE7's method
23:29.31KirkburnNo, I mean #XXX is never used
23:29.46Zealthat's what i'd want
23:29.52KirkburnIt just darkens #XXX for the top and left borders, and MORE for the right and bottom
23:30.02Zealit shouldn't darken
23:30.05KirkburnIf I choose a colour for my border, I want it to actually exist on the border!
23:30.09Zealit should lighten two of them
23:30.14KirkburnIt doesn't
23:30.26Zeali don't Kirkburn, because that's how i've always doen borders
23:30.41KirkburnWhat, you take a guess at what the browsers colour?
23:30.47Kirkburn(will be)
23:31.03Zeali start with a base background, lighten for highlight, darken for shadow. if i have no bg colour, i still want them drerived fro mthe same base colour.
23:31.17KirkburnYes. IE7 doesn't appear to do that
23:31.24Zealyeah. it should be
23:31.27KirkburnIE7 just darkens both
23:31.33Zealwell thats lame
23:31.41Zealbut either way, i wouldn't want FF's method
23:32.02Zealno idea which is correct, couldn't care less because w3c never do thigns that are desirable..
23:32.21KirkburnIf you want exact colouring for outset, is it not better to know exactly what at least one of the colours is?#
23:32.41KirkburnAgain, don't go blaming the WC3 people without reason
23:33.02Zeali've given my reason
23:33.11Zeali don't want that colour to be in the border, no.
23:33.17KirkburnYes, but do you actually know if it's WC3's fault?
23:33.26Zeali expect it to be a base colour to derive the two colours.
23:34.02Zealbut that's irrelevent, as i didn't blame them
23:34.46Kirkburn"no idea which is correct, couldn't care less because w3c never do thigns that are desirable."
23:34.48Zealsimply saying, because w3c usually fuck things up, if it's their fault, i don't care who's right, i'm siding with IE7.
23:35.01Zealnever blamed them Kirkburn
23:35.03KirkburnYou ARE blaming them
23:35.09Zealno, i'm fucking not
23:35.19KirkburnYou're saying it's W3C's fault!
23:35.21Zeali said they never do things that are desirable
23:35.26KirkburnHow the HELL is that not blaming them?
23:35.44Zealthere's no lbame
23:35.55Zealthats a fact, completely seperate fro mthe issue
23:36.28Zeali didn't say "it's w3c's fault, they never do things that are desirable and this is evident of it yet again"
23:36.35KirkburnOh whatever.
23:39.13Zealdunno how you see that as placing blame. if either FF is doing it as w3c specify, i don't care because it's not desirable, as with most things the w3c specify. there's no blame in that _
23:40.48Kirkburn|afkThat's an odd use of the word blame. You say something is due to someone, yet somehow you're not blaming them? Anyway, so far I can't find a W3C specification on the method to be used.
23:41.12Kirkburn|afkAnd what on earth you have against W3C I don't know.
23:42.25Zealthere's an IF in my second wording, in my first wording, i never even said one way or the other, just i don't care and why.
23:42.37Kirkburn|afkBlame the lack of organisation in the early days of the internet, the competition between IE and Netscape and their disregard for standardisation ... but don't blame the W3C who spend their days attempting to sort out all the crap and mvoe the internet forward.
23:42.41Zealso no, i didn't say anything was due to anyone.
23:44.54Kirkburn|afkWhy do you have this odd vendetta against W3C?
23:45.44Zeali can't criticize w3c because of the browser wars? My main point, is much of how microsoft did things, were desirable and better, but w3c decided to go against that, make something that no browser was doing at the time., yet is not desirable. Probably because they had an uncealr and convoluted view of how sites should be used/made and what for.
23:46.12Zealbecause much of the stuff they standardize is counter productive and causes issues that are easily resolved.
23:46.54Kirkburn|afk"how microsoft did things, were desirable and better" hah. I'm sorry, but that's just a silly comment.
23:47.13Zealmuch of
23:47.15Zealnot all
23:47.21Zealand it's not at all
23:47.30Zealthey probably had as biased ad view as you.
23:47.51Kirkburn|afkOh right, because I disagree I'm biased?
23:47.55Zeali couldn't care who made it, if it was desirable, then it was a good idea.
23:47.57Kirkburn|afkI use IE7 ffs
23:48.07Zealyou wouldn't given the choice? :P
23:49.56Zealeg. padding being internal, not effecting the width of the element. there's no reason ever to not want that. but because of w3c standard, to produce the same desired effect, you have to use twice the number of elements.
23:50.14Zealand through that, margins then become a blurred use
23:51.43*** join/#wowwiki Kaso (
23:51.53Zealthen we have the silly margin collapsing rules. collapsing margins inside elements to external ones for example. hm.. what next.
23:52.16Zealthe differences between height and width when they should both operate the same way.
23:52.33Zeallack of verticle align on elements
23:52.59Kirkburn|afkI disagree, borders should be outside the box
23:53.21Kirkburn|afkSorry, misread
23:53.26Zealkk, heh.
23:55.09Zealthe whole border model of tables is a bitch, as well as the lack of heritage or applying to first child capable of styling for tables like IE still does.
23:56.39Zealthe oversight with floats ignoring margins, padding and bullets on it's surroundings.
23:58.17Zealinability to control overflow well.
23:59.19Zealie, being able to do such things as next column for verticle overflow, and better control of new lines in overflow.
23:59.58Zealthose two things would actually made css usefull for dynamic sites like a wiki.

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