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| 08:02.55 | AcidWeb | PSA: Multi-release packages on CF will NOT be fixed before BC pre-patch release. Do NOT upload releases that are marked as compatible both with classic and bc client flavors. |
| 08:03.01 | AcidWeb | (New TOC parser will not be supported too. TOC file without suffix is required.) |
| 08:04.32 | Ennea | in other words.. who still needs curseforge? ;p |
| 08:04.39 | AcidWeb | Same scenario as when classic was released and authors were experimenting with retail/classic packages. |
| 08:05.07 | AcidWeb | That is still most popular platform on the planet. |
| 08:05.26 | AcidWeb | Regardless of its state |
| 08:12.47 | Cairenn | Or authors can continue to use WoWI |
| 08:16.37 | AcidWeb | Cairenn WoWI have special place in my heart but lets be honest. Vast part of current generation of WoW players don't even know it exist. Addon must be very popular to be able to leave CurseForge. |
| 08:16.47 | AcidWeb | It is harsh truth. |
| 08:18.22 | AcidWeb | Personally I still use WoWI. |
| 08:19.27 | Cairenn | Thank you for your opinion |
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| 09:29.05 | AcidWeb | Well sadly this is a little more than opinion: I can't leave CurseForge. |
| 09:31.49 | AcidWeb | On semi-related note Cairenn is WoWI parsing the TOC files in any form? We can switch to new naming there or packages without X.toc file are refected by some form of auto moderation? |
| 09:32.12 | AcidWeb | *rejected |
| 09:33.52 | Cairenn | There is no auto moderation of any form on WoWI, Dolby and I (and Seerah when she has time) do it all manually. |
| 09:35.22 | Cairenn | Also, you could absolutely leave CF if you wanted to. If your addon is truly appreciated, your users will follow you wherever you go. |
| 09:35.58 | AcidWeb | OK. |
| 09:36.37 | AcidWeb | Sadly most of users would just search for alternative that can be pulled from one source than jump the site. |
| 09:37.01 | AcidWeb | Convenient to update >>> Everything |
| 09:37.11 | Cairenn | Minion |
| 09:37.42 | Mr_Rabies | either way i would probably spread the net pretty far, because there's very little chance curseforge ever gets out of the red |
| 09:37.57 | AcidWeb | It don't solve that problem at all as rest of user addons are still on CF. |
| 09:38.08 | AcidWeb | Plus minion don't support classic fully. |
| 09:38.37 | Cairenn | Look, you want to use CF, use CF, but stop talking like there is absolutely no other option. |
| 09:38.43 | Mr_Rabies | i don't see it lasting another expansion unless they manage to kick the can down the road to sell it to another company that doesn't realize it's a money pit |
| 09:39.13 | AcidWeb | I don't want to use it. |
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| 09:39.23 | AcidWeb | But I want to reach the userbase. |
| 09:39.38 | Cairenn | We were around before CF and we'll be around after. And it's still the same people it's always been, we don't keep selling out to the highest bidder over and over. |
| 09:40.09 | Cairenn | If authors used WoWI, the users would use WoWI, it's that easy. |
| 09:40.14 | AcidWeb | I fully agree that WoWI is better place than CF. |
| 09:40.32 | Mr_Rabies | i obviously don't know any site's financials but i don't see anyone being able to take on that job with the idea anyone is gonna make any money from it |
| 09:41.10 | Mr_Rabies | i.e. no one site could tank the bandwidth hit from curse disappearing unless they were just legit in it to help the playerbase, knowing it was a money pit |
| 09:41.12 | Cairenn | But as long as authors keep saying "oh, I have to use CF because of reasons (a), (b), or (c)", then .... you have to keep using CF |
| 09:42.30 | Cairenn | But again, I'm tired of this same old bs that we've been listening to for years now. Whatever, I really don't care. We've always been here for the authors and the community, we do it because we love it, that's why it's still us. We aren't in it for the money, we work other jobs to pay the bills. |
| 09:43.21 | Mr_Rabies | as a user and not an author i mostly just pull from CF since it's usually the fastest to update, but I don't use their client and I have several addons updating across multiple providers including wowi, github, and personal sites etc |
| 09:43.49 | Mr_Rabies | but i'm also a power user and not technically stunted like most of the wow playerbase |
| 09:44.55 | AcidWeb | I appreciate your work greatly. But that don't change simple fact: When generic wow user is searching for addon he expect to find it on CurseForge. |
| 09:45.00 | Mr_Rabies | our main tank insisted on using wowmatrix despite his dbm being like, weeks behind on updates early into a patch cycle sometimes and it drove me up the wall lol |
| 09:45.11 | AcidWeb | And he don't really look for any alternatives. |
| 09:45.24 | AcidWeb | That is sad but true. |
| 09:46.09 | AcidWeb | And when I say generic WoW user - I mean EU/US regions players. Can't comment state of other regions. |
| 09:47.07 | Cairenn | Go ahead and keep missing the point, I'm done with this convo, at least at the moment. It's almost 6 am here, I haven't been to bed yet, I've been dealing with real world shit that is a whole hell of a lot more important than where authors and users of video games distribute/get their addons, like missile strikes in the middle east and police brutality around the world. |
| 09:47.53 | Cairenn | So forgive me, or not, but I'm a little cranky right now, so I know enough to know I need to stop talking about this. |
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| 09:48.52 | AcidWeb | ... |
| 09:48.59 | Mr_Rabies | the majority of the userbase will always gravitate towards the option that is most convenient, and part of that convenience is availability, which is a cycle that repeats |
| 09:49.04 | AcidWeb | ^ |
| 09:49.38 | Mr_Rabies | easy to install and easy to expect the addon to just be there when they type it in will always be what people go for |
| 09:50.38 | Mr_Rabies | even if the convenient place bombards them with ads and popups, they're so used to that experience on the mobile space now that they just ignore it |
| 09:51.22 | Mr_Rabies | meanwhile i use a computer without adblock and i cannot focus on a single thing other than everything flashing and screaming at me |
| 09:51.37 | Mr_Rabies | well, ublock origin |
| 09:53.20 | Mr_Rabies | i think that people have made it pretty easy to cross-publish across multiple platforms, but i have no idea how reliable it is etc |
| 09:54.05 | AcidWeb | Cairenn: Also what is the point I keep missing then? |
| 09:56.47 | Mr_Rabies | her point is that if no one makes the sacrifice it will never happen, but realistically curse going belly-up would probably just lead to the larger addons getting their own launchers/sites which is already sort of happening since people can sense the unease around curse, and everyone else just scattering around or congregating under whichever platform say, dbm or tukui or whatever ends up winning as the "new default" |
| 09:57.15 | Mr_Rabies | at least as i see it |
| 09:57.56 | Mr_Rabies | i see both sides of the argument here but i can't ever expect the average joe to intentionally stick his neck out for something he has no actual stake in |
| 09:58.26 | Cairenn | What fucking sacrifice. We were here first, we're still us, we're still here, we will still be here, we offer the same convenience, I really don't understand what the hell the issue is. |
| 09:58.32 | Mr_Rabies | it's commendable for someone to do so, but also arguably self-defeating in some circumstances |
| 09:59.02 | Cairenn | We should have been, and continue to be, the 'default', but whatever. |
| 09:59.52 | Mr_Rabies | i don't know if anyone is actually making any money off of curse anymore or whatever, but i can't expect anyone to actually try to pay addon authors for downloads etc, on the same idea |
| 10:00.27 | Mr_Rabies | it's commendable to offer to pay people but i also wouldn't fault anyone for not being able to do so because it's also a risky move for the involved party |
| 10:00.29 | Cairenn | Yeah, well, that was how Curse bribed y'all, to make them be the 'default' |
| 10:01.09 | Mr_Rabies | i'm just saying it's the same thing in both cases |
| 10:01.13 | Cairenn | They bribed authors to put their addons on their site so that they'd get all the users because that's where all the addons were, so they could sell the site for more money. |
| 10:01.34 | Cairenn | Meanwhile, we just keep on keeping on. |
| 10:02.00 | Mr_Rabies | people will stick with the safer option for themselves almost every time and any deviation from that may be commendable but may also not be the smartest decision, financially or otherwise |
| 10:03.23 | Mr_Rabies | i'm not saying anyone should offer to pay like curse has because i think it's a pretty foolhardy move, but i also don't blame anyone for wanting to stick with the platform that IS willing to pay instead of sticking their neck out entirely for no benefit |
| 10:03.32 | Mr_Rabies | realistically, just publish to both and stop worrying about it lol |
| 10:03.38 | AcidWeb | Well matter is now clear for me after few last comments. |
| 10:04.28 | Cairenn | Yeah, I'm sure it is. I told you I needed to stop talking about this because I'm tired and cranky, but y'all wanted to keep going, so I laid it out. |
| 10:07.45 | Mr_Rabies | if it adds any context to the situation, wowi was in a really rough position not that long ago due to zam/wowhead shenanigans and most/all of them had to work without pay for quite some time until they were able to get things together (as i understand it, i might have some details wrong) |
| 10:08.18 | Mr_Rabies | so at least keep that in mind when it comes to the prior conversation |
| 10:09.02 | Mr_Rabies | and they did keep the site functional during all of that, so that's certainly something in their favor |
| 10:09.05 | Cairenn | ROFL! You think we've ever really gotten paid? Like I said, we do our sites because we love them, not because we're in it for the money. We could have sold any number of times, but didn't, because we love our sites and we love our community. That's why we do everything we do. |
| 10:09.58 | Cairenn | We don't sell out to the highest bidder. We keep the sites and do it all by hand because we actually give a shit. |
| 10:10.40 | AcidWeb | As I fully support his approach in current state of world that is not enough to keep popularity. |
| 10:10.44 | AcidWeb | *this |
| 10:11.07 | Mr_Rabies | like i said i probably got some details wrong, but i thought you guys for at least a short period had a little support under ZAM until things went sideways |
| 10:11.55 | Cairenn | But again .... if the authors used WoWI, the users would as well. As long as the authors keep trying to get paid instead of going back to the days of when they did their addons for the love of it, then you end up in the situation you are in. |
| 10:12.21 | Mr_Rabies | i'm really trying to play the role of mediator but i do have an opinion of "i no longer expect anyone to stick their neck out for anyone else but sometimes it's commendable, sometimes it's foolhardy, and sometimes it's both" |
| 10:12.49 | AcidWeb | I personally don't care about making money on addons - at all. |
| 10:13.23 | Mr_Rabies | i see both sides and think that it's commendable for someone to run a website like they used to be run, with the understanding they're a money pit |
| 10:13.33 | Cairenn | And as I said, we will continue to run our sites just like we have for the last 19 years, not to make money, just because we love them. |
| 10:13.53 | Mr_Rabies | but i also wouldn't fault someone for saying "okay this isn't worth my time, i got bills to pay" and bailing one day |
| 10:15.01 | Mr_Rabies | same with addon authors, so long as it's easy to cross publish that makes the most sense to me, but if it ever becomes a nightmare, i wouldn't fault anyone for sticking with the larger site instead of spending a bunch of time handling both |
| 10:15.11 | AcidWeb | But state of market is what it is and it will not change with passive stance. |
| 10:15.25 | Mr_Rabies | or even just sticking with the one offering to pay them, even if it's foolhardy |
| 10:15.59 | Vardex | It will probably not change unless curseforge shut down or become unusable. |
| 10:16.21 | Mr_Rabies | if the overwolf mess didn't change things much yeah pretty much |
| 10:16.24 | AcidWeb | I also think that current state is already set in stone. |
| 10:16.25 | Cairenn | And when it does, we will still be here |
| 10:17.48 | Cairenn | On that note, I truly am done with the conversation, I need to get some sleep before things start ramping up again for the day in the police brutality and missile strike world. |
| 10:18.24 | AcidWeb | Also I'm terribly sorry Cairenn if any of my comments hurt you in any way. That definitely was not my intention. |
| 10:18.26 | AcidWeb | Good night. |
| 10:18.29 | Mr_Rabies | i have pretty much destroyed my sleep schedule |
| 10:18.45 | Cairenn | Oh, mine has been destroyed for over a year now, so I feel you. |
| 10:18.52 | Mr_Rabies | it's also 6AM over here and i am just now getting tired |
| 10:20.38 | Cairenn | AcidWeb, you didn't *really* hurt me (although a bit), but you frustrated the hell out of me, because it's been an ongoing frustration and hurt. I'm sorry if it seemed like I was lashing out and made you decide that I'm an unreasonable bitch, but I'm so damn tired of so many damn things, it's beyond explaining. |
| 10:21.09 | Mr_Rabies | just become a cynical asshole like me with no faith in anyone else, it's easy |
| 10:21.44 | Mr_Rabies | makes career path pretty awkward though lol |
| 10:22.12 | Cairenn | Lol, I keep trying to be, but a part of me will always care about stuff. It's why I do our sites, and it's why I'm neck deep in the 'giving a shit about the world writ large' world. |
| 10:22.33 | Mr_Rabies | if you always expect the worst out of everyone, when they do something slightly good it's a nice surprise |
| 10:26.17 | Ennea | :D |
| 10:26.20 | Ennea | true, sadly |
| 10:27.30 | Ennea | regarding cf vs wowi, from an author's standpoint (been a while, but still): i've always been curious what other addon authors want from their own addons. i always picked wowi because it seemed like a much better choice. if people would not download my addon because it's not on cf, why would i give a damn about that? |
| 10:28.29 | Ennea | i always wrote my addons for myself first. if others got a use out of them, well, that's pretty nice. but personally, i never found a reason to throw my addons on as many sites as possible |
| 10:29.16 | Cairenn | See, it's attitudes like that ^^ that keeps us running our sites, because it's the same way we feel about our sites. |
| 10:30.34 | Cairenn | That was how addons started, that was how our sites started, it was about people writing their addons for the love of them and the games they played, and wanting to share that passion with others. |
| 10:30.55 | Cairenn | It was a hobby, not a job. |
| 10:33.22 | AcidWeb | I personally have only technical reason why I use CF - translation system. And I just push my work to all platforms and let user use whatever they want. |
| 10:34.34 | AcidWeb | *only one |
| 10:34.39 | Cairenn | I wish we could offer translation system, but we can't afford to pay anyone to write it for us and no one is volunteering to do it for free. |
| 10:36.00 | Ennea | tl;dr, what is cf's translation system, what does it do? |
| 10:36.04 | Cairenn | Because, again, we refuse to sell out to the highest bidder |
| 10:36.08 | Ennea | some sort of interface where users can translate strings of an addon? |
| 10:36.13 | Cairenn | so we don't have the budget |
| 10:37.00 | AcidWeb | Ennea: tldr: Users fill page with translations and they are pulled automatically to addon package during build. |
| 10:37.54 | AcidWeb | So I don't need to handle it manually on code repo level. |
| 10:40.09 | Ennea | i see |
| 10:40.11 | Ennea | neat feature |
| 10:40.42 | AcidWeb | Yeah it is extremely convenient. |
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