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| 10:15.20 | foxlit | so I have this annoying problem with wow libraries: at embedded library load time, I'd like to know whether this version of the library is the most recent one that is going to be loaded. For bonus points, I'd like to get a reference to the most recent version before the first version finishes loading. |
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| 12:30.17 | Chipzz | foxlit: I doubt that you can; sounds lik what you're asking for is essentially a crystal ball to peek into the fiture |
| 12:31.15 | Chipzz | assuming you're talking about WoW itself and not the code analysis part of your website |
| 12:32.05 | Chipzz | did I mention that embedded libraries are an anti-pattern yet? :P |
| 12:50.22 | foxlit | the requirement to be able to install addons without specialized software is non-negotiable. |
| 12:53.55 | foxlit | "hey, download these 26 other things to use my addon" is similarly silly. |
| 12:59.17 | foxlit | and including libraries as top-level addons* in your release zip is a nightmare: someone will inevitably clobber a library with an older version when installing a slightly older addon than yours. |
| 13:01.44 | foxlit | => patterns are silly. |
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| 13:09.17 | nevcairiel | patterns require context, and none of those patterns have any wow context |
| 13:24.50 | foxlit | but more on topic, ## X-LibCrystalBall-Version: 42. |
| 13:26.15 | foxlit | one could query metadata for all enabled addons at load time to figure out whether the current one has the most recent library version or not. |
| 13:28.16 | Gnarfoz | if that's available for everything that's going to be loaded before any code is actually loaded, that seems like a potential avenue, if enough libraries carry that information in their metadata |
| 13:28.38 | Gnarfoz | (or if it's your own library, if you do this from the start or consider all versions that are lacking the info to be obsolete) |
| 13:35.49 | foxlit | I think it's reasonable to assume that the library is cooperative, as are the addons embedding it, at least to a certain extent. |
| 13:43.35 | foxlit | taking that to its logical conclusion means shipping YourAddon_LibCrystalBall as a top-level LoD addon and some sort of loader stub in YourAddon to figure out, using toc metadata, what to LoadAddOn() to get the most recent version. |
| 13:45.46 | Gnarfoz | does that improve anything, though, and if so, is it worth the effort? |
| 13:53.06 | foxlit | oh, it improves something. |
| 14:08.21 | Gnarfoz | your sanity level? |
| 14:08.22 | Gnarfoz | :D |
| 14:16.18 | foxlit | that too. |
| 14:21.53 | foxlit | the more obvious benefits are that if you can guarantee that the most recent version loads first, nobody has to write any version migration code, and the game doesn't have to load code only to discard it later. |
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| 14:52.27 | Chipzz | 14:53 < foxlit> "hey, download these 26 other things to use my addon" is similarly silly. -> I entirely and 100% fully disagree |
| 14:52.37 | Chipzz | it's inconvenient, but it's not silly |
| 14:52.46 | Chipzz | but what this really is about is about tooling |
| 14:53.08 | Chipzz | Curse client not being able to automatically install deps is the real issue |
| 14:53.50 | Chipzz | you know what *I* think is silly? Blizzard providing us the tools to have dependencies, and addon authors ignoring those tools |
| 14:54.43 | Chipzz | (and with tools in this context I mean the Dependencies field in .toc files) |
| 14:56.40 | foxlit | Chipzz: it's inconvenient, but it's not silly << it doesn't matter what you call it, I'm still not downloading 26 other things. |
| 14:57.11 | sylvanaar | I love this conversation. The memories |
| 14:57.16 | Chipzz | 15:26 < foxlit> one could query metadata for all enabled addons at load time to figure out whether the current one has the most recent library version or not. >> what metadata would that be? a custom field? |
| 14:57.36 | Chipzz | sylvanaar: yeah I've made this rant before :) |
| 14:57.51 | foxlit | literally in the preceding message, Chipzz. |
| 14:57.51 | sylvanaar | you can't query embedded libraries until you load them |
| 14:58.19 | Chipzz | foxlit: I thought that was a pun on what I said before |
| 14:58.32 | sylvanaar | only way to find out their version is to load them :D |
| 14:58.37 | foxlit | why not both? |
| 14:58.51 | foxlit | sylvanaar: GetAddOnMetadata is a thing. |
| 14:58.55 | Chipzz | s/?/?.jpeg/ |
| 14:59.09 | Chipzz | if you want to be memy (is that spelled correctly?) about it :) |
| 14:59.25 | sylvanaar | foxlit: who would populate that |
| 14:59.36 | Chipzz | what sylvanaar said |
| 14:59.40 | nebula | packager |
| 14:59.43 | Chipzz | every addon would need to have that field |
| 14:59.52 | Chipzz | and those who don't fail your mechanism |
| 15:00.15 | nebula | but yea, running disembedded was popular back in the day, nolib packages are a leftover from then |
| 15:00.22 | foxlit | you would, if you want to use the library. |
| 15:01.30 | Chipzz | foxlit: that would still require fixing existing addons, no? unless you're talking about a new library |
| 15:01.37 | sylvanaar | Yeah, you didn't need to deal with upgrading because the standalone libraries were updated separately |
| 15:02.23 | sylvanaar | they didn't come from the addons' zip |
| 15:02.47 | foxlit | I don't particularly care about forcing this on all libraries -- if someone thinks they'd benefit from not writing migration code, they can do this; if they don't, I don't care. |
| 15:02.50 | nevcairiel | nebula: "popular" by a few mouthy people, not by the general public |
| 15:03.10 | nebula | popular because it was the default way wau came, no? |
| 15:03.11 | nevcairiel | they want something thats easy and just works |
| 15:04.05 | sylvanaar | it was a power-user thing for sure |
| 15:04.25 | nebula | then curse had their own updater than also supported it, but then it stopped being a thing except for devs and such |
| 15:05.54 | sylvanaar | Back in the day, upgrades were more expensive IIRC |
| 15:05.57 | Chipzz | (disclaimer: I didn't actually check this is the case but I strongly suspect it is). Embedding libraries also causes real issues. Concrete case, I can't add TomTom waypoints in Nazjatar. Strong suspicion this is because of outdated version of HereBeDragons in TomTom. Having TomTom be nolib would fix that |
| 15:06.22 | nebula | eh |
| 15:06.36 | nevcairiel | you can just install the standalone library if you think a newer version is all that it fixes |
| 15:06.54 | nevcairiel | but the real issue is that tomtom is basically just out of date |
| 15:08.12 | sylvanaar | I really liked how back in the day both ways were supported |
| 15:08.24 | sylvanaar | you could choose for yourself |
| 15:08.43 | Chipzz | twitch client still supports that |
| 15:08.52 | Chipzz | but your addon needs to have a nolib version |
| 15:08.54 | nevcairiel | besides there are no nazjatar specific workarounds in HBD, the only location work arounds are for visions |
| 15:09.17 | Chipzz | nevcairiel: HBD has a list of zone name mappings |
| 15:09.30 | nevcairiel | which is generated dynamically from the game |
| 15:09.39 | nevcairiel | i know, because its my library =P |
| 15:10.09 | nebula | i also use waypoints all the time in nazjatar without issue |
| 15:10.28 | nevcairiel | i'm pretty sure i used the crazy arrow there |
| 15:10.34 | Chipzz | nevcairiel: the actual issue is ctrl-richtclicking doesn't work in Nazjatar in TomTom. not entirely sure that's due to HBD but I suspect it is |
| 15:10.38 | Chipzz | it works n all other zones |
| 15:10.56 | nebula | oh, clicks |
| 15:10.58 | Chipzz | nebula: ^^^ |
| 15:11.14 | Chipzz | /way 20 20 works in Nazjatar |
| 15:11.36 | nevcairiel | that sounds like a tomtom issue |
| 15:12.00 | Chipzz | it might be, haven't dug into it |
| 15:12.07 | Chipzz | but why would all other maps work? |
| 15:12.11 | nebula | honestly clicking for waypoints seems like it just randomly works, like i can't get any modifier with clicks to work and i'm in drustvar |
| 15:13.37 | nevcairiel | i dont think i ever use it by clicking, at most i use /way or arrow integration into other map addons |
| 15:13.50 | nevcairiel | but it seems to have gone a bti downhill since it got a new maintainer |
| 15:13.51 | nebula | rezoned and now it works fine |
| 15:14.12 | sylvanaar | I am so irritated the default UI spreads taint all over itself if you hook AddMessage :( I had to completely re-engineer Prat |
| 15:14.32 | Chipzz | but also honestly I should get off my lazy ass and write an addon that allows adding TomTom waypoints by right-clicking the symbols on the map |
| 15:14.54 | Chipzz | what I really want is to add a waypoint for a flightmaster or quest exclamation mark |
| 15:15.23 | nebula | kemayo has an addon for doing poi waypoints |
| 15:15.32 | Chipzz | ctrl-right-clicking on the map for that is a workaround :P |
| 15:15.57 | Kemayo | ...though I've not made sure it works for detecting new ones in a while. |
| 15:16.17 | nebula | :p |
| 15:16.32 | Kemayo | Really, I should just bite the bullet and go talk to guards in all the cities to pre-build a database for that thing, then stop shipping it with learning new ones enabled. |
| 15:16.33 | nevcairiel | dealing with click locations on the map has gotten a bit more complicated in 8.0 (and with a bit I mean quite a bit), and that was also the time tomtom was abandoned and picked up by someone else, so experiences havent always been great |
| 15:19.03 | Chipzz | is it really that much more complicated? sure it changed with the map data providers, but that sounds like a change in API more than a complication |
| 15:19.14 | foxlit | zooom. |
| 15:19.23 | nevcairiel | yeah there is more zoom and panning now |
| 15:19.24 | Chipzz | I started looking at TomTom at one point but then I got lost in the code |
| 15:19.40 | nevcairiel | map textures are much more high-res now and zoomed out by default |
| 15:19.41 | Chipzz | ISTR HBD has map data provider integration though |
| 15:19.53 | foxlit | also, reading mixin code puts me to sleep. |
| 15:20.08 | nebula | must go deeper |
| 15:20.12 | Chipzz | why you no like OO? :P |
| 15:20.18 | nevcairiel | definitely makes reading harder |
| 15:20.19 | foxlit | it's like seventeen layers of "fuck you, your princess is in another castle" |
| 15:23.14 | Chipzz | foxlit: that's called inheritance :) |
| 15:26.42 | Ennea | honestly, looking at any of the world map code in classic just created headaches for me |
| 15:27.00 | Ennea | that may have been partly related to that part being especially shit in classic, as nev has mentioned before.. |
| 15:27.06 | Ennea | s/part/fact |
| 15:27.14 | Ennea | wait, nvm |
| 15:27.17 | nevcairiel | i dont think they messed with map much |
| 15:27.21 | Ennea | i can't think straight rn |
| 15:27.26 | foxlit | really? I would've called it "shitty coupling" |
| 15:27.38 | nebula | polyshitism |
| 15:28.13 | Kemayo | Yeah, the map data sources are a lot harder to read through and work out what's happening now. |
| 15:28.14 | Ennea | nevcairiel, it's using all the new fancy map stuff from 8.x, isn't it? and all wrong, too. scaling/repositioning the map also breaks shit in fun ways |
| 15:28.28 | Ennea | i dunno, i can't even remember how exactly it was broken. i discarded that knowledge.. |
| 15:28.34 | Ennea | Kemayo, yea, that stuff |
| 15:28.35 | Ennea | geez |
| 15:28.38 | nevcairiel | it does sort of make it more reliable to add new pins to he map and whatever, but trying to read all the mixin spaghetti is a bit tiresome |
| 15:28.52 | Ennea | i dunno, maybe there's a good reason, but that just seems overengineered |
| 15:29.28 | Chipzz | well I looked at it some time ago because I wanted to add pins to the map in my own addon too |
| 15:29.49 | nevcairiel | a very basic data provider is really quite easy |
| 15:29.52 | Chipzz | it's a bit hard to get started, but some of the providers blizzard ships are simple examples of how to achive stuff |
| 15:30.10 | Chipzz | nevcairiel: yeah, some are not that complicated at all |
| 15:30.28 | nevcairiel | make an xml template for the pin, make the provider from the mixin, implement the "get pins" function |
| 15:30.30 | nevcairiel | or something like that |
| 15:30.38 | Chipzz | the complicatd part is figuring out what all methods are used for |
| 15:30.56 | Chipzz | most are obvious but not all |
| 15:38.45 | foxlit | "I'd like to use the pin provider API" is the best-case scenario here; "I'd like to know how to handle clicks on the maps" is worse, and "I'd like to know how the map works so I can wrest the quest log from its annoying jaws" (or some equivalent plubming problem like "what happens when you actualy open the communities UI?") is nap-inducing. |
| 15:40.24 | Ennea | in my case (classic), it was: i'd like to know why the mouse coordinates seem to be completely off when i change the world map's scale to not fill the entire screen |
| 15:40.44 | Ennea | that one took a while, and then nev's help :D |
| 15:44.12 | nevcairiel | well ok that part is broken in classic, they hardcoded quite some assumptions there for the fullscreen map |
| 15:44.40 | nevcairiel | but thats par for the course for classic, least effort to make it sort of work |
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| 16:01.36 | foxlit | from an API perspective, I rather like UIDropDownMenu. |
| 16:03.56 | foxlit | (the pre-8.0 version, at least) |
| 16:07.01 | foxlit | it's mostly straightforward to use, easy to reason about, and can be extended with a minimal amount of fuss. |
| 16:07.35 | foxlit | now if only they fixed more than one bug in it per expansion :P |
| 16:19.16 | foxlit | (and maybe deprecated/removed the _{S,G}etSelected* stuff) |
| 16:24.54 | sylvanaar | Its an evil taint monster |
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| 16:35.08 | foxlit | it's not /that/ bad. It'd be better if they fixed a few over-reads and stopped using the widgets as state storage. |
| 16:49.01 | sylvanaar | It caused me so much trouble |
| 16:51.20 | foxlit | what did you break? :) |
| 16:58.03 | sylvanaar | it spreads taint between secure and insecure dropdowns :( |
| 17:03.26 | foxlit | what did you break? :) |
| 17:13.19 | foxlit | (by which I mean what ui functionality did it end up preventing from working correctly; the break wording was more amusing) |
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| 19:28.49 | sylvanaar | right click on playername and choose target |
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| 19:35.14 | foxlit | in chat? |
| 19:50.44 | foxlit | between people overwriting ChatFrame_OnHyperlinkShow/SetItemRef and people messing with UnitPopup*, that's one fragile code path. |
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| 20:13.36 | sylvanaar | yeah - tell me about it |
| 20:14.34 | sylvanaar | chat is full of taint - if you hook AddMessage now you will taint the CommunityChat stuff |
| 20:17.01 | sylvanaar | hooking AddMessage was the standard for adding timestaps |
| 20:21.11 | Ennea | my favorite taint for chat is breaking tab autocomplete for slash commands |
| 20:21.17 | Ennea | done by adding... any custom slash command |
| 20:21.28 | Ennea | does not break on all commands, though |
| 20:35.21 | foxlit | that seems... predictable. SetText has to taint content because otherwise you'd :SetText("/cast Whatever"); tab completion requires iterating over all commands until something is found, and iterating over a custom (and hence tainted) slash command will taint execution. Iteration order is nondeterministic, and the completion presumably returns the first match. |
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| 20:37.41 | Ennea | foxlit, it is predictable! but also.. weird |
| 20:37.47 | Ennea | slash commands have always been around |
| 20:37.58 | Ennea | they must've known this would happen when they added tab completion |
| 20:38.27 | foxlit | completion predates taint |
| 20:38.38 | Ennea | does it? |
| 20:38.48 | Ennea | did i just never know it exists? o.o |
| 20:38.48 | foxlit | https://www.townlong-yak.com/framexml/1.12.1/ChatFrame.lua#2007 |
| 20:39.05 | Ennea | huh.. interesting |
| 20:39.21 | Ennea | i really just never knew it existed |
| 20:39.23 | foxlit | hell, https://www.townlong-yak.com/framexml/1.1.2/ChatFrame.lua#1839 |
| 20:39.39 | Ennea | cool insight, thanks |
| 20:39.48 | foxlit | but nobody actually uses it, so nobody cares :) |
| 20:40.10 | Ennea | i just muscle memoried my way into it when i started playing classic |
| 20:40.23 | Ennea | probably mostly because i tab complete more than 50% of my keystrokes in shells |
| 20:40.27 | sylvanaar | lol I use tab complete for everything |
| 20:40.37 | Ennea | which i definitely didn't back when i was playing wow until the release of cata |
| 20:40.56 | sylvanaar | I even have an autocomplete for the lua environment |
| 20:41.09 | sylvanaar | so i can autocomplete my Lua code |
| 20:43.28 | sylvanaar | https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/Z0fxbmqm/AutoComplete.jpg |
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| 22:34.16 | Mr_Rabies | that reminds me, certain players have been missing various context menu items in raids and i don't know what on earth is causing it |
| 22:34.49 | Mr_Rabies | like i can't whisper our DK consistently by right clicking his name in the raid roster, but i can use the guild roster |
| 22:36.01 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> anything that touches the RAID_CLASS_COLORS table taints that context menu |
| 22:37.38 | Mr_Rabies | hmm, i'm not aware of anything i have that might, but who knows |
| 22:37.48 | Mr_Rabies | it's only certain players which makes it super weird, plus it's consistent |
| 22:41.04 | Mr_Rabies | my two biggest culprits for taint were clique and prat, i disabled prat and that fixed a lot of things but clique is so convenient and i'm so used to it now :( |
| 22:41.28 | Mr_Rabies | but very likely that's what it is now that i think about it, i should test it next raid i'm in |
| 22:43.55 | sylvanaar | I have been trying to fix Prat's taint - it was extensive |
| 22:44.06 | sylvanaar | That is UIDropDownMentu strikes again |
| 22:44.35 | sylvanaar | Or UnitPopup - one or the other |
| 22:51.15 | Gnarfoz | [16:53:08] <Chipzz> Curse client not being able to automatically install deps is the real issue <-- some of its predecessors could (notably: WAU, like nebula said), and still this system was abolished; it's more suited to a homogenous environment, which WoW addons (and their distribution) hardly are... less so than "back then", as well |
| 23:03.10 | nevcairiel | I think curse client can actually do that as well |
| 23:05.29 | Gnarfoz | is it broken 5 ways to Sunday, though? :D |
| 23:06.53 | Gnarfoz | but yes, it has such an option https://i.imgur.com/fjczJJp.png |
| 23:07.33 | Gnarfoz | that'd probably be a comical experience these days, though |
| 23:08.05 | nevcairiel | i dont even make nonlib packages anymore for most things |
| 23:19.21 | sylvanaar | I don't remember ever stopping support for no-lib, but I don't produce them |
| 23:21.25 | foxlit | what is it with people and making wow libraries to provide rounding functions? |
| 23:22.02 | nevcairiel | thats a thing? |
| 23:22.09 | nevcairiel | math.floor(x+0.5) too hard? |
| 23:22.43 | Meorawr | It's our proud equivalent of left-pad |
| 23:22.46 | foxlit | LibUtilities, LibAddonUtils. |
| 23:22.58 | nevcairiel | that sounds like liblordfarlander all over again |
| 23:23.13 | sylvanaar | lol |
| 23:27.08 | foxlit | https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/liblordfarlander-2-0 < hm. |
| 23:27.23 | Meorawr | The best thing I remember from one such "utility" library recently was a bug where some logging functionality stored each message (as a table) going through it inside another table that was never pruned. Big ol' memory balloon. |
| 23:28.05 | Meorawr | Thankfully it logged a lot less junk in packaged builds than it did in unpackaged ones... |
| 23:28.20 | foxlit | the _ForgeUser123456 usernames make me sad :( |
| 23:29.21 | Mr_Rabies | that's the power of bezos |
| 23:29.42 | sylvanaar | 8k downloads for LLF |
| 23:29.45 | foxlit | "no, we can't possibly show people's pseudonyms; but hey, have a changelog signed by Jason Brown <farlander@xsmail.com>" |
