| 00:16.21 | *** join/#wowuidev purl (ibot@c-174-52-60-165.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 00:16.21 | *** topic/#wowuidev is WoW Classic Beta Addon Cat: https://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/cat160.html || 8.1.x ToC: 80100 || http://pastebin.com || Battletags: http://bit.ly/2MAEFxk || This channel is logged, via purl || Currently mode +r due to spam until a better solution is found. |
| 00:41.34 | *** join/#wowuidev Seerah (~umsin@75-36-111-192.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net) |
| 00:41.46 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ |
| 00:54.59 | Funkeh` | https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/classiclfg-addon/263761/10 |
| 01:05.03 | foxlit | what do you think they'll actually do? |
| 01:06.05 | Funkeh` | got sucked into a pvp match so havent actually read it yet |
| 01:06.16 | Funkeh` | but dunno if you saw the sheer amount of whining about it |
| 01:06.47 | foxlit | nah, I'm mostly ignoring the entire thing. |
| 01:07.04 | Funkeh` | well I think that's the only reason they're even looking into it |
| 01:07.08 | Funkeh` | because of the whining |
| 01:07.13 | foxlit | it's just generic "we will be adding restrictions to the Classic add-on API that will significantly limit this add-on and others like it." |
| 01:09.36 | Funkeh` | Don't really know what they could do that wouldn't end up being a restriction that classic didn't have, which in itself would be removing something that made classic.. classic |
| 01:09.52 | Funkeh` | if that makes sense |
| 01:10.26 | Funkeh` | trying to make classic more like it originally was by taking something away that it had |
| 01:12.33 | znf | I was just reading that |
| 01:12.37 | MooreaTv | I hope it's banned by addon and not by feature the addon uses... I use/need channel comm and addon comm |
| 01:12.47 | foxlit | |K all the chat messages. |
| 01:14.10 | Funkeh` | Like I said, a restriction that classic wow didnt have, killing addons that classic had |
| 01:14.52 | foxlit | is Decursive still dead? |
| 01:15.29 | Funkeh` | yes but im not talking about automation |
| 01:21.51 | foxlit | MooreaTv: "banned by addon" can't really be a thing. They'll just rename to whatever name you use. |
| 01:28.50 | MooreaTv | they can declare that doing so is bad |
| 01:28.56 | MooreaTv | or check the code of the addon |
| 01:29.52 | foxlit | declaring things doesn't do much; checking code is futile. |
| 01:29.53 | kd3 | kinda curious how blizzard declares from on high 'thou shalt not do this' programmatically |
| 01:30.17 | MooreaTv | there is a lot of things you could do that are against the TOS, so they can just legislate "don't do it" instead of breaking a bunch of legit addons |
| 01:30.54 | kd3 | that'll break ~15 years of precedent of 'if you can do it using the API it's not against TOS' |
| 01:31.48 | foxlit | that never held, really. |
| 01:32.44 | kd3 | did anyone ever get actioned for just using an addon? I know I haven't been keeping up much but that seems like it'd make some noise |
| 01:33.06 | Funkeh` | no, they only changed API in response to addons |
| 01:33.08 | foxlit | (you can SendChatMessage("SNORGGLEDOOM KILLED BEEBLEBROX") in a tight loop, bans should ensue.) |
| 01:34.00 | MooreaTv | you can have a small bug in your addon that creates a tight loop of messages :) hopefully you just DC and realize before you get banned |
| 01:34.00 | kd3 | well, sure. but spamming breaks tos, regardless of whether or not you use an addon |
| 01:34.19 | kd3 | or a well-coded macro |
| 01:34.49 | foxlit | "but I did it using the API!" |
| 01:35.06 | MooreaTv | but back on topic, maybe our Blizzard guests can take the concern about unannounced knee/jerk API changes and how that may affect addons not breaking otherwise the "social contract" of classic |
| 01:38.07 | foxlit | hey, the social contract is important. |
| 01:39.02 | foxlit | (probably more so than the addons) |
| 01:45.19 | znf | I read 1/3 of that thread |
| 01:45.51 | znf | Some of my brain cells committed suicide during that |
| 01:46.57 | *** join/#wowuidev Semlar_ (~semlar@072-189-128-149.res.spectrum.com) |
| 01:47.04 | *** join/#wowuidev TSquare (~tomthomps@198.74.35.2) |
| 01:47.04 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o TSquare] by ChanServ |
| 01:47.57 | znf | At this point I'm convinced that Classic people are desilusuonal |
| 01:51.44 | foxlit | isn't that a prerequisite? ;) |
| 01:52.22 | znf | I guess... |
| 01:57.42 | Semlar_ | what if they just removed the chat |
| 02:00.08 | foxlit | ... and forced everyone to use voice? |
| 02:00.26 | Semlar | anthem did it, look how that turned out |
| 02:00.50 | Seerah | ...... |
| 02:01.53 | Semlar | just think of the immersion |
| 02:16.33 | znf | no |
| 02:16.35 | znf | I disagree |
| 02:16.38 | znf | just force everyone into RP |
| 02:16.44 | znf | you must RP as your class, 24/7 |
| 02:16.56 | znf | else, you're banned from chat for 24 hours, doubling every time you get an infraction |
| 02:17.53 | *** join/#wowuidev Ressy (~Ressy@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/ARL/Ressy) |
| 02:32.44 | Semlar | looking forward to raider.io Classic |
| 02:33.03 | Funkeh` | lol |
| 02:33.13 | Funkeh` | it's coming |
| 02:33.24 | Funkeh` | how else can people know who not to invite |
| 02:33.58 | Funkeh` | ain't gonna be the community there used to be, when you cared about your reputation |
| 02:34.11 | Funkeh` | If you get a bad rep just realm transfer |
| 02:37.53 | Semlar | soon, blizzard imposes a maximum file size of 5kb for individual addons |
| 02:38.16 | foxlit | lugging around giant databases is over-rated anyway. |
| 02:39.03 | Semlar | authors resort to uploading thousands of addon folders to ship their database |
| 02:39.08 | foxlit | rio should just digitally sign "my name is Illidons and my rio score is 9001". |
| 02:40.34 | Semlar | i have a great idea |
| 02:40.39 | foxlit | stuff that into a neat little hex string and it'd fit nicely into any application notes/whispers. |
| 02:41.22 | Semlar | what if they dug up all of the old addons from classic and made those the only addons that would run on the client |
| 02:41.42 | Stanzilla | https://twitter.com/EllypseCelwe/status/1165049386856062976 |
| 02:41.54 | Semlar | hang on this is genius |
| 02:42.02 | Stanzilla | it's fucking hilarious |
| 02:42.03 | Semlar | where's our blizzard rep |
| 02:42.36 | foxlit | Semlar: except 1.13 != 1.12, so none of them would actually run. |
| 02:43.06 | Semlar | well that's why they should just throw out everything they've done and just run one of those private server emulators |
| 02:43.32 | Semlar | it would have saved them a ton of work |
| 02:43.33 | foxlit | 1.12 client or riot, clearly. |
| 02:45.05 | Semlar | now, i remember some of the original incarnations of the official LFG tool |
| 02:46.09 | Semlar | i recall that it would occasionally show the wrong level for players |
| 02:46.43 | Semlar | wrong class, just wrong about random player information for some reason |
| 02:47.29 | Stanzilla | can someone fix the topic in here btw? Cairenn maybe? 8.2.0 ToC: 80200 1.13 ToC: 11302 |
| 02:55.06 | *** topic/#wowuidev by Iriel -> WoW Classic Beta Addon Cat: https://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/cat160.html || 8.2.0 ToC: 80200 || 1.13 ToC: 11302 || http://pastebin.com || Battletags: http://bit.ly/2MAEFxk || This channel is logged, via purl || Currently mode +r due to spam until a better solution is found. |
| 02:55.23 | Iriel | Sorry, wasn't paying attention |
| 02:58.40 | Stanzilla | thanks <3 |
| 03:03.04 | foxlit | I mean, we were going 0/3 there: the beta addon cat isn't actually beta anymore, the toc numbers were wrong, and the +r is long since unnecessary. |
| 03:04.02 | Iriel | I can fix these things |
| 03:04.11 | *** topic/#wowuidev by Iriel -> WoW Classic Addon Cat: https://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/cat160.html || 8.2.0 ToC: 80200 || 1.13 ToC: 11302 || http://pastebin.com || Battletags: http://bit.ly/2MAEFxk || This channel is logged, via purl |
| 03:06.40 | foxlit | (+r is actually still in the mode; it's just that the spammers got bored) |
| 03:06.50 | *** part/#wowuidev Seerah (~umsin@75-36-111-192.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net) |
| 03:07.57 | Iriel | it takes me too long to figure out how to switch the mode without messing something else up. |
| 03:09.05 | Stanzilla | maybe add a link to the discord as well? :D |
| 03:09.39 | Stanzilla | https://discord.gg/sVQCHr5 |
| 03:12.39 | foxlit | if sending raw commands, "MODE #wowuidev -r" would do the trick. |
| 03:15.51 | Iriel | /topic WoW Classic Addon Cat: https://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/cat160.html || 8.2.0 ToC: 80200 || 1.13 ToC: 11302 || http://pastebin.com || Discord: https://discord.gg/sVQCHr5 || Battletags: http://bit.ly/2MAEFxk || This channel is logged, via purl |
| 03:17.22 | Iriel | Grr |
| 03:17.35 | *** topic/#wowuidev by Iriel -> WoW Classic Addon Cat: https://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/cat160.html || 8.2.0 ToC: 80200 || 1.13 ToC: 11302 || http://pastebin.com || Discord: https://discord.gg/sVQCHr5 || Battletags: http://bit.ly/2MAEFxk || This channel is logged, via purl |
| 03:18.07 | Iriel | That's what I get from trying to type in IRC and play diablo concurrently |
| 04:11.59 | *** join/#wowuidev Kesava (~kesava@unaffiliated/sliker) |
| 05:09.42 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (Funkeh`@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 05:49.47 | *** join/#wowuidev bluspacecow (~bluspacec@2404:4402:134f:f200:f4d7:6438:4c3:b05a) |
| 05:49.47 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v bluspacecow] by ChanServ |
| 05:53.02 | *** join/#wowuidev Sintacks (Sintacks@75-109-20-148.chlncmtk01.res.dyn.suddenlink.net) |
| 06:29.33 | *** join/#wowuidev pompy (~Mike@2601:87:4101:92f0:1d95:4852:e3f3:166) |
| 06:31.47 | Mr_Rabies | 9:32 pm) <kd3> did anyone ever get actioned for just using an addon? I know I haven't been keeping up much but that seems like it'd make some noise |
| 06:32.14 | Mr_Rabies | i know it's been hours but people did get actioned for using trade chat forwarder and forwarding messages with profanity/etc before |
| 06:32.49 | Mr_Rabies | i think mostly they got removed and turned into a warning about which addons you install etc for the most part |
| 06:34.48 | Ssateneth | people that use addons that are disruptive will be actioned, because 1: disruptive and 2: the people using it usually know it's disruptive. |
| 06:35.41 | Ssateneth | disruptive meaning something that causes server instability or some level of harassment/bad language against other players |
| 06:35.51 | Mr_Rabies | well, it's pretty nondisruptive on its own, since you can only see the forwarded messages if you have the addon (or join the channel, which was full of all kinds of weird padding and stuff) |
| 06:36.12 | Ssateneth | non-disruptive addons that go against the spirit of the game will just be patched out. |
| 06:36.22 | Ssateneth | like classiclfg |
| 06:37.32 | Mr_Rabies | but if someone else said cursing etc in trade chat, the person that didn't say those things could get actioned since they forwarded the message to a channel (even if it was only used for that one addon) |
| 06:38.54 | Ssateneth | complicity |
| 06:39.18 | Ssateneth | 1 person ruins it for everyone |
| 06:39.29 | Mr_Rabies | not exactly, which is why it was mostly reversed |
| 06:40.12 | Mr_Rabies | if someone said something in trade chat, their addon would automatically forward it to other people with the addon, even if it violated TOS |
| 06:40.32 | Mr_Rabies | people who didn't say anything bad were getting in trouble for a small window because of the actions of others |
| 06:47.38 | bluspacecow | https://twitter.com/kruithne/status/1165009937270890496?s=21 |
| 06:47.40 | bluspacecow | :D |
| 06:48.46 | bluspacecow | TOS ? You mean the battle.net EULA as wow has no TOS anymore #sheldon |
| 06:48.49 | Mr_Rabies | someone should actually implement it but replace all the rewards with "a sense of pride and accomplishment" |
| 06:50.00 | Ennea | gotta say, EA have made it quite far with that statement :D |
| 06:50.36 | MooreaTv | lol well played |
| 06:51.28 | bluspacecow | wouldn't take too much to create a garrison table addon for classic that merely pretends to be one aka just throws up a pretty frame |
| 06:51.33 | Mr_Rabies | i mean it really wouldn't take much to generate random missions with random percentages and a realtime timer |
| 06:51.52 | bluspacecow | make the code so super complicated that to a cursory examination it appears to be a working addon |
| 06:52.07 | MooreaTv | use ace3 :p |
| 06:52.19 | bluspacecow | when really it's just calling up all these BS functions that aren't defined to do anything mo0re then throwing a ball between its hands in code |
| 06:52.23 | Mr_Rabies | i mean you could make a working addon, just call it a minigame like the peggle etc addons lol |
| 06:52.36 | bluspacecow | ha ha that'll trigger the #nochanges crowd |
| 06:52.39 | bluspacecow | TRIGGERED |
| 06:52.48 | MooreaTv | are the artwork etc in classic btw ? |
| 06:53.15 | bluspacecow | dunno but you could maybe build it from parts of graphics |
| 06:53.16 | MooreaTv | or they've been prune (to make a look alike mission table without even copying anything) |
| 06:53.24 | bluspacecow | like how they did menus before windows was a thing in DOS |
| 06:53.38 | Ennea | znf, reading anything on the forums will generally get rid of your brain cells rather quickly it seems ;D |
| 06:53.45 | bluspacecow | or how they used to use compression tricks to squeeze whole games into kilobytes of memory |
| 06:54.07 | bluspacecow | *spray stelarizes znf* |
| 06:54.35 | Ennea | MooreaTv, from what i've seen (extracted the art using that fancy console command) there are at least some leftovers of non-classic artwork in there |
| 06:54.40 | Ennea | i'm not sure if all of it remains though |
| 06:55.08 | Mr_Rabies | probably not a ton of newer assets since the game is like 4GB lol |
| 06:55.14 | Ennea | there's a huge ass garrison folder though :) |
| 06:55.17 | bluspacecow | anyone know if there was any LUA changes in 1.13.2.31650 |
| 06:55.25 | Mr_Rabies | i'm sure some stuff just to cover the bases for the report screen etc |
| 06:55.36 | Ennea | bluspacecow, well, first off, it's Lua, not LUA |
| 06:55.45 | Mr_Rabies | bnet integration, etc |
| 06:55.46 | Ennea | secondly, here's a handy page: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Patch_1.13.2/API_changes |
| 06:55.49 | bluspacecow | ha ha |
| 06:55.55 | *** join/#wowuidev EsreverWoW (~Esrever@2601:443:480:5ba5:784b:7969:eb28:3208) |
| 06:56.03 | Ennea | there's nothing to "ha ha" at. it's not called LUA |
| 06:56.06 | bluspacecow | *hands Ennea their #sheldon tag* |
| 06:56.09 | Ennea | i can't figure out where people keep getting that from |
| 06:56.14 | bluspacecow | yeah I know |
| 06:56.19 | EsreverWoW | Not afaik, @bluspacecow. |
| 06:56.19 | bluspacecow | it was a typeo! |
| 06:56.23 | bluspacecow | typo! |
| 06:56.30 | bluspacecow | kk ty |
| 06:56.31 | Mr_Rabies | are there any LuA changes in 1.1.3.2.3.1.6.5.0 |
| 06:56.31 | Ennea | two for one deal ;D nice |
| 06:56.35 | EsreverWoW | This was a 96k demo back in 2004. https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=12036 |
| 06:56.51 | Ennea | ohh, i remember .kkrieger |
| 06:56.53 | Ennea | that was fancy as hell |
| 06:57.40 | Mr_Rabies | man i just clicked a link from someone that just joined chat without thinking what is wrong with me |
| 06:57.45 | Mr_Rabies | thankfully it was okay but lol |
| 06:57.58 | bluspacecow | https://all-things-andy-gavin.com/2011/02/02/making-crash-bandicoot-part-1/ |
| 06:58.15 | bluspacecow | has some good stuff on things they had to do to get smash bandicoot working |
| 06:58.27 | EsreverWoW | Ah, I was reading from the mirror on Discord and decided to join the conversation was all. |
| 06:58.47 | bluspacecow | on the topic of doing things in smaller amounts of memory |
| 06:59.05 | Mr_Rabies | (i'm guessing you were reading from the discord bridge or something EsreverWoW since it seemed like on my end you continued a conversation that was had before you joined chat lol) |
| 06:59.07 | bluspacecow | um its a whole series well worth a read |
| 06:59.10 | Mr_Rabies | oh |
| 06:59.13 | Mr_Rabies | doh i was scrolled up |
| 06:59.14 | Mr_Rabies | lol |
| 06:59.33 | Mr_Rabies | i think all these irc fails back to back are a good sign i should get to bed |
| 06:59.54 | bluspacecow | on them doing stuff that would technically of been impossible with the memory specs of the day that people thought they cheated |
| 07:00.03 | Ennea | on the topic of doing cool things inside tightly restricted environments: https://blog.mecheye.net/2018/03/deconstructing-the-water-effect-in-super-mario-sunshine/ |
| 07:00.10 | bluspacecow | and hadnt actually got a game , justpre-rendered footage |
| 07:00.14 | Ennea | this is massively off topic by now i guess, but i found this super cool |
| 07:00.30 | EsreverWoW | Naughty Dog also were behind Last of Us. |
| 07:00.40 | EsreverWoW | Another game that pushed the constraints of the hardware it ran on. |
| 07:00.46 | Ennea | naughty dog is beautiful |
| 07:00.50 | bluspacecow | they did the insane thing of precalculating a ton of vertices for 3d modelling *ahead* of time and just uncompressing that data really really well |
| 07:04.47 | Ennea | oh, there is a blue post regarding classiclfg https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/classiclfg-addon/263761/10?u=nukecrater-illidan |
| 07:04.54 | Ennea | "Thus, in an upcoming patch (in the weeks following launch), we will be adding restrictions to the Classic add-on API that will significantly limit this add-on and others like it." |
| 07:05.04 | Ennea | now i'm actually worried they'll get rid of addon channels/messages.. |
| 07:05.37 | bluspacecow | yeah they're rather non specific on what the changes are |
| 07:05.52 | Ennea | hopefully they're not being idiots about it :/ |
| 07:06.12 | bluspacecow | neither townlong yak nor tomrus has updated for build 1.13.2.31650 yet |
| 07:06.16 | bluspacecow | from 9 hours ago |
| 07:09.37 | Mr_Rabies | might be the thing that broke classiclfg, but yeah would be nice to know exactly what |
| 07:11.01 | EsreverWoW | @bluespacecow - I keep track of changes too, but I haven't updated yet since it would interfere with how I'm testing things presently. |
| 07:11.04 | EsreverWoW | https://wow.tools/builds/diff_new.php?from=a115a2f86cd841f1468468904d8327b3&to=2c915a9a226a3f35af6c65fcc7b6ca4a |
| 07:11.14 | EsreverWoW | But it doesn't look like there's anything really worth noting. |
| 07:11.32 | bluspacecow | yeah thnaks :) |
| 07:12.00 | Ennea | EsreverWoW, ah, wow.tools is yours? |
| 07:12.07 | EsreverWoW | No, no. |
| 07:12.29 | Ennea | misunderstood, then ;D |
| 07:12.52 | EsreverWoW | Sorry, I should have made that more clear. I have a git repo for where I track changes. But wow.tools is from Marlamin. |
| 07:13.18 | bluspacecow | yes that's the shaggy parrot's work |
| 07:13.21 | EsreverWoW | https://github.com/Marlamin |
| 07:13.39 | Ennea | wow.tools looks pretty darn useful, in any case |
| 07:14.11 | bluspacecow | it is since you can do some much with it. like downloading a specific build version of a particular file |
| 07:14.46 | bluspacecow | wow.tools! I would like build xxxx of the file realmlist.lua and it sends me that version of the file |
| 07:15.25 | Ennea | i pray that blizz won't be removing addon messages to get rid of classiclfg :/ |
| 07:17.36 | Mr_Rabies | did vanilla have addon messages? |
| 07:18.51 | Ennea | they were introduced in 1.12 |
| 07:18.52 | EsreverWoW | Yes |
| 07:19.05 | *** join/#wowuidev Semlar (~semlar@072-189-128-149.res.spectrum.com) |
| 07:19.13 | EsreverWoW | https://wow.gamepedia.com/index.php?title=API_C_ChatInfo.SendAddonMessage&oldid=269982 |
| 07:19.29 | EsreverWoW | SendAddonMessage("prefix", "text", "PARTY|RAID|GUILD|BATTLEGROUND") |
| 07:19.39 | EsreverWoW | Limited to those channels though. |
| 07:19.42 | Mr_Rabies | hopefully it stays in then |
| 07:19.50 | Ennea | perhaps they will reroll that api to only be.. that |
| 07:20.00 | Ennea | and maybe (hopefully) also include the whisper type |
| 07:20.01 | EsreverWoW | That'd be fine, imo. |
| 07:20.18 | Ennea | i need at least the whisper stuf |
| 07:20.20 | Ennea | *stuff |
| 07:20.57 | EsreverWoW | Maybe rate limit it or force it to only be used in C_ChatInfo.SendAddonMessageLogged. |
| 07:21.02 | EsreverWoW | for Whisper |
| 07:21.32 | Ennea | that's an interesting one |
| 07:21.36 | Ennea | what's the reason it was added? |
| 07:22.03 | EsreverWoW | This function has been introduced as a solution to growing issues of harassment and doxxing via addon communications, where players would use addons to send content against the terms of service to other players (roleplaying addons are particularly affected as they offer a free form canvas to share a RP profiles). As regular addon messages are not logged they cannot be seen by game master, they had no way to act upon this |
| 07:22.03 | EsreverWoW | content. If you use this function, game masters will be able to check the addon communication logs in case of a report and act upon the content. |
| 07:22.14 | *** join/#wowuidev stolenlegacy (~stolenleg@unaffiliated/stolenlegacy) |
| 07:22.24 | Ennea | ah, yea, just arrived at that part :D |
| 07:22.33 | Ennea | interesting |
| 07:24.34 | *** join/#wowuidev Ellypse (c310006b@195-16-0-107.access.telenet.be) |
| 07:25.19 | EsreverWoW | Nice twitter posts, Ellypse. |
| 07:25.49 | Ellypse | Thanks :D |
| 07:28.48 | Ellypse | I saw the question about logged add-on message and was going to jump in, but I see that what I wrote on the wiki was pasted here, so jobs done :D |
| 07:28.55 | Ennea | :) |
| 07:29.09 | Ennea | i'm surprised that function only got added in 8.x |
| 07:29.15 | Ennea | would've expected abuse of addon messages much sooner |
| 07:29.19 | Ennea | considering how long they've been around now |
| 07:29.43 | EsreverWoW | They probably were sooner. |
| 07:29.47 | EsreverWoW | Just undetected. |
| 07:30.44 | Mr_Rabies | i mean if you've ever gone to goldshire with an rp addon installed on moon guard |
| 07:30.49 | Ellypse | As far as I remember I had reports about abuses, and I picked up TRP in MoP. But during legion the doxxing part increase significantly. There's probably a copycat effect |
| 07:30.55 | Mr_Rabies | there's stuff there that would make ron jeremy blush |
| 07:31.08 | EsreverWoW | I've never played on an RP realm / used an RP addon. |
| 07:31.13 | EsreverWoW | I'm in the dark. |
| 07:31.14 | Ennea | well, i stopped playing midway through wotlk |
| 07:31.18 | Ennea | played on rp-pvp back then |
| 07:31.20 | Ennea | used flagrsp |
| 07:31.31 | Ennea | no abuse there. everybody was using it responsibly |
| 07:31.49 | Ellypse | Sad thing is, this is more intended towards reporting harassment than gross content |
| 07:31.50 | Mr_Rabies | i do it from time to time to just soak in the madness that is moon guard |
| 07:32.36 | Mr_Rabies | login on my level 1 and just sightsee the degeneracy |
| 07:33.11 | Ennea | speaking of goldshire. one of the first things i did during the classic stress test was get up on that inn :D |
| 07:34.11 | Ellypse | If trial accounts cannot log into Classic (which I assume it is) the situation there will probably be better |
| 07:34.18 | Ellypse | Also, no draenei |
| 07:34.36 | EsreverWoW | Trial accounts couldn't log in during the last test. The "pre-launch" test. |
| 07:35.04 | EsreverWoW | You could get to realm selection, but on trying to enter, you'd get the message about needing active game time and booted. |
| 07:35.39 | EsreverWoW | Also, you couldn't be logged into retail and Classic on the same account without getting kicked off the existing session. |
| 07:36.04 | EsreverWoW | Which sort of makes sense given the shared sub and that not everyone will be interested in Classic or Retail, but rather one or the other. |
| 07:36.09 | Ennea | perhaps they'll be distributing 14 day trial cds for classic again ;) |
| 07:36.29 | EsreverWoW | Allowing simultaneous access would be asking for compromised accounts. |
| 07:37.26 | EsreverWoW | I thought it was 10 days? |
| 07:38.30 | Mr_Rabies | especially with no wow tokens in classic, accounts are gonna be a hot commodity for a year or so again probably |
| 07:38.41 | Ennea | was it 10? |
| 07:38.44 | Ennea | i can't remember honestly |
| 07:38.46 | EsreverWoW | I think so. |
| 07:39.00 | EsreverWoW | There were both it seems? |
| 07:39.13 | EsreverWoW | Guest pass was 10 days. |
| 07:39.16 | Ennea | here's a 14 days one https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/yHMAAOSwVZtdLd9N/s-l1600.jpg |
| 07:39.21 | Ennea | oh yea, the guest passes |
| 07:39.23 | Ennea | i forgot about those |
| 07:39.34 | EsreverWoW | But they had like $2 USD ones you could buy in stores as physical media. |
| 07:39.55 | EsreverWoW | And those were 14 it seems. |
| 07:40.20 | Ennea | i actually ordered a used box of the base game off ebay for even more nostalgia when classic launches |
| 07:40.22 | Ennea | might arrive today |
| 07:40.26 | Ennea | or sometime next week i guess |
| 07:41.46 | Mr_Rabies | i sorta miss those giant game boxes |
| 07:42.20 | Ennea | my brother still has his diablo 2 and baldur's gate 2 boxes somewhere :) |
| 07:42.32 | Ennea | i remember the latter having a t-shirt inside, too |
| 07:42.41 | Ennea | which i proudly wore to elementary school, haha. it was way too large |
| 07:42.49 | Mr_Rabies | dang diablo 2 collectors edition is worth a pretty penny even opened |
| 07:43.06 | Mr_Rabies | i imagine a sealed one is pretty expensive lol |
| 07:44.50 | Mr_Rabies | http://cidadegamer.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Diablo2-CE.jpg |
| 07:44.55 | Mr_Rabies | i still have mine with all the materials |
| 07:45.18 | Mr_Rabies | game discs, soundtrack, dvd with cutscenes, d&d books, map, etc |
| 07:45.21 | Mr_Rabies | and even some dice |
| 07:46.03 | Ennea | god i just love that box art |
| 07:46.22 | Mr_Rabies | i know why they discontinued them but man, media having huge containers kinda owned |
| 07:46.34 | Mr_Rabies | i feel the same way about vinyls |
| 07:46.56 | Mr_Rabies | i don't really care about them being less compressed generally than other releases, i mostly love the giant album art |
| 07:47.01 | Ennea | i guess i'm not old enough for vinyls. they do have quite a bit of style, i'll give you that |
| 07:47.08 | Ennea | but yea, too bad about boxes for games and other stuff |
| 07:47.33 | Ennea | i really enjoyed the witcher 2 box when it was released. wasn't even a special edition, just a normal box. not even full price when it released, i paid like 45⬠or so |
| 07:47.36 | Mr_Rabies | there's always the artist's edition of the robocop comic that a friend of mine got lol |
| 07:47.46 | Ennea | came with the game, the ost, a giant manual, a map, some papercraft stuff, a coin |
| 07:47.50 | Ennea | some other stuff i forgot |
| 07:47.56 | Ennea | i think an art book as well |
| 07:48.10 | Ennea | hm.. witcher 2 box ain't here. must be at home |
| 07:48.29 | Mr_Rabies | https://youtu.be/n_3OKFxe8ew?t=47 |
| 07:48.38 | Mr_Rabies | he has a few other ones that are larger but ican't recall which |
| 07:48.43 | Ennea | damn |
| 07:48.44 | Mr_Rabies | this is straight up unwieldy |
| 07:50.00 | Mr_Rabies | the berserk omnibus hardcovers are gorgeous too and giant for manga |
| 07:50.09 | Mr_Rabies | i fi could afford them i'd get them in a heartbeat |
| 07:50.42 | Mr_Rabies | https://youtu.be/FGTp_PPBoDA?t=137 uhh possibly nsfw depending on which pages he thumbs through lol |
| 07:55.47 | Mr_Rabies | oh yeah definitely lol |
| 08:29.12 | *** join/#wowuidev Andols (~yaaic@2a00:801:3ca:5aa4:c8e6:7b17:f62:4c47) |
| 08:49.06 | *** join/#wowuidev Kesava_ (~kesava@unaffiliated/sliker) |
| 09:05.34 | *** join/#wowuidev brykrys (~brykrys@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Dev/Brykrys) |
| 09:22.16 | *** join/#wowuidev Sintacks (Sintacks@75-109-20-148.chlncmtk01.res.dyn.suddenlink.net) |
| 09:25.25 | *** join/#wowuidev Sintacks (Sintacks@75-109-20-148.chlncmtk01.res.dyn.suddenlink.net) |
| 11:24.08 | *** join/#wowuidev Sintacks (Sintacks@75-109-20-148.chlncmtk01.res.dyn.suddenlink.net) |
| 11:39.13 | *** join/#wowuidev Andols2 (~yaaic@217-209-12-6-no170.tbcn.telia.com) |
| 12:12.54 | *** join/#wowuidev Nimhfree_ (~scott@12.31.71.58) |
| 12:36.56 | *** join/#wowuidev Breen (~Breen@80.175.117.105) |
| 12:44.10 | *** join/#wowuidev Andols (~yaaic@2a00:801:3ca:5aa4:e340:4cf1:e4e5:cac8) |
| 12:57.40 | *** join/#wowuidev netameta (~netameta@75-139-8-146.dhcp.kgpt.tn.charter.com) |
| 12:58.04 | netameta | Hmm, https://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info25056-ClassicLFG.html - so LFG addon for classic does exists |
| 12:58.59 | netameta | So my addon which is way more simple/awesome for LFG could run just as well and not get people banned by blizzard |
| 12:59.17 | netameta | maybe i should update it to 8.3 |
| 13:02.21 | Ennea | netameta, blizz blueposted about removing some api functions to reduce functionality of classiclfg |
| 13:02.24 | Ennea | due to community outcry |
| 13:02.47 | netameta | Can you share that please i am curious what they have removed |
| 13:03.14 | nevcairiel | nothing yet, and the only thing t hey can do is a heavy handed approach to limit addon communication for everyone |
| 13:03.24 | nevcairiel | ie. it'll be a shitshow |
| 13:07.41 | netameta | I am curious about this blue post. |
| 13:07.54 | netameta | maybe i should get my LFG up to day then |
| 13:08.10 | netameta | Its a distributed DB LFG tool |
| 13:12.25 | netameta | i wonder if they will limit that too |
| 13:13.14 | Ennea | netameta, 09:04 <Ennea> oh, there is a blue post regarding classiclfg https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/classiclfg-addon/263761/10?u=nukecrater-illidan |
| 13:15.37 | netameta | Ah ! |
| 13:15.41 | netameta | there we go |
| 13:16.05 | netameta | so its probably pointless for me to rewrite my LFG addon to fit 8.3 |
| 13:16.38 | Ennea | my guess is that channel based addon messages will be removed |
| 13:16.40 | netameta | Mine is a little bit more invasive then theirs, you have to join a channel and all communication is done on that channel |
| 13:16.42 | Ennea | hopefully whisper based will not |
| 13:17.04 | nevcairiel | so we use custom channel with auto-filtered normal chat messages |
| 13:17.12 | nevcairiel | rate limited sure, but still works |
| 13:17.28 | Ennea | how do you ensure that no dickwad gains ownership of that channel, though |
| 13:17.31 | Ennea | who could then kick everybody |
| 13:17.54 | netameta | Not sure what you mean by custom channel, but i think its pointless to try to by pass of be a smart ass with blizzard - rather just play the game as it was intended |
| 13:18.56 | *** join/#wowuidev ls- (~ls-@ppp-202-176-184-179.revip.asianet.co.th) |
| 13:19.05 | nevcairiel | "as it was intended" is apparently not decided by blizzard anymore though, but some streamers that try to force their vision of what classic should be on everyone by getting blizzard to disallow addons that were fully capable of working in vanilla |
| 13:19.48 | foxlit | Ennea: you don't use a single hardcoded channel name, but instead an infinite sequence of channel names that you cycle through if you find yourself unable to join the one you want. |
| 13:20.13 | ls- | netameta, at this point some people want to mess w/ classic devs out of spite |
| 13:21.05 | netameta | Well i guess for now i will just drop it, and not rewrite |
| 13:21.20 | znf | I'm enjoying the show so far |
| 13:21.36 | znf | Stanzilla gets attacked in every single tweet by the mindless purists |
| 13:22.03 | znf | mah immersion! teh community! |
| 13:22.43 | netameta | Is there a way to check threat of all current mobs engaged ? |
| 13:22.44 | znf | Can't wait to see how all the realms they opened now will be a ghost town in a month or so |
| 13:22.46 | nevcairiel | I can't wait for the flames how everything is terrible on classic, its nothing like how they remember, and then blame everyone else for it =p |
| 13:22.47 | *** join/#wowuidev Ketho (~Ketho@2a02:a44e:ac87:1:9042:a8ac:253f:f33a) |
| 13:23.04 | ls- | kill addon communicasion ashttps://classic.wowhead.com/news=294661/classiclfg-and-the-spirit-of-classic-world-of-warcraftdf af |
| 13:23.10 | ls- | ugh |
| 13:23.28 | ls- | my rmb switch is cucked |
| 13:23.42 | ls- | w/e |
| 13:25.32 | netameta | In retail, as a tank if you engage a group of mobs, and you lose aggro on one mob it gives you a warning. is there a way to achieve the same thing with classic |
| 13:26.24 | nevcairiel | not easily |
| 13:27.48 | netameta | nevcairiel, Can you point me to the right direction ? |
| 13:28.02 | netameta | or at least an idea |
| 13:30.58 | netameta | I am looking at the api threat function none looks too crazy |
| 13:31.31 | netameta | UnitDetailedThreatSituation("unit", "mob"). |
| 13:31.46 | nevcairiel | those are removed in classic, hence not easily |
| 13:32.12 | netameta | even with that its not easy |
| 13:32.28 | netameta | if mobs has same name how are you going to query all of them |
| 13:32.39 | nevcairiel | assume people have nameplates on =p |
| 13:32.52 | netameta | ok An ? |
| 13:33.07 | nevcairiel | then mobs have nameplate units you can use |
| 13:33.31 | ls- | nameplate1-40 |
| 13:33.39 | znf | But mah immersion?! |
| 13:33.46 | znf | What do you mean removed? /s |
| 13:34.17 | ls- | what the chose to leave in and what they chose to remove is a bit odd in some cases |
| 13:34.48 | *** join/#wowuidev Andols (~yaaic@2a00:801:381:2f76:f755:c607:1579:dbb) |
| 13:35.21 | *** join/#wowuidev Meorawr (~Meorawr@cpc96138-rdng26-2-0-cust327.15-3.cable.virginm.net) |
| 13:35.36 | ls- | I still dunno why they chose to nuke UnitCastingInfo, there's no harm in having it in classic, addon devs will recreate enemy castbars, they'll be inaccurate, but w/e |
| 13:35.47 | netameta | name plate units - as in the addon ? |
| 13:35.49 | ls- | at least people could have accurate castbars :P |
| 13:36.25 | Ennea | foxlit, then you still have a split playerbase across those channels |
| 13:36.32 | Ennea | assuming whoever owns the channel doesn't kick all of them |
| 13:36.36 | foxlit | write better code and you don't. |
| 13:36.43 | Ennea | :D |
| 13:36.57 | Ennea | well, care to explain what you're imagining, then? |
| 13:38.13 | netameta | ls-, that nameplate1-40 is this another addon ? or a way for you to access certain mobs that are in combat ? |
| 13:38.42 | netameta | nevcairiel, how do we know that unitDetaildThreatSituation is removed ? |
| 13:38.42 | ls- | nah, those are just unit tokens, just like raid1-40, target, player, pet, etc |
| 13:39.04 | ls- | so you could use those to try to get the info you need |
| 13:39.05 | netameta | ls-, Ah, and that like a handle to unit you are engaged ? |
| 13:39.16 | netameta | or just anything around you ? |
| 13:39.28 | ls- | anything that has a nameplate |
| 13:40.54 | foxlit | not particularly; those are boring problems. Detect the rogue ownership and cycle channels; retry previous channels periodically; gossip about which channels currently work. |
| 13:43.20 | nevcairiel | netameta: i dont understand the question, we try to call it and it doesnt exist anymore? :) |
| 13:51.52 | netameta | ls-, so basically you'll have to iterate over all the name plate and check which ones you are engaged to |
| 13:52.12 | netameta | nevcairiel, Where can you even test what is classic right now if the servers are down |
| 13:52.24 | Ennea | foxlit, how are you gonna detect which channels have rogue ownership? |
| 13:52.55 | Ennea | any owner that kicks a user? |
| 13:53.14 | Ennea | but each client would have to figure that out by themselves |
| 13:56.15 | foxlit | all moderator/owner actions fire events, no? |
| 14:03.29 | foxlit | (kicks also seem like a non-issue from an addon perspective; rejoins are cheap) |
| 14:05.06 | foxlit | The fun thing about this is that after you implement all that nonsense, it would probably never run: mitigating the potential disruption removes the incentive to attempt it in the first place. |
| 14:06.31 | netameta | nevcairiel, is there a way to test it right now? |
| 14:06.48 | Ennea | foxlit, good call about the rejoins. i guess WoW channels have no bans..? |
| 14:06.51 | Ennea | i honestly can't remember |
| 14:07.18 | Ennea | and i'd expect kicks to fire events, yea, but i'm just thinking. the biggest drawback would be that each client has to figure that out on their own. you can't really communicate it to others |
| 14:07.35 | nevcairiel | no bans, password is the only way to k eep people out |
| 14:07.44 | foxlit | er, chat bans exist. |
| 14:08.07 | nevcairiel | netameta: no, but we can safely assume that t hey wouldnt re-add something they already removed for an earlier phase of testing (ie. two weeks ago it wasnt there :p) |
| 14:08.19 | netameta | Ah |
| 14:08.43 | netameta | then i guess i will have to see how threat meter do it and just do the same thing for all name plates |
| 14:09.41 | Ennea | in any case, i feel like rebuilding addon channel functionality using regular channels would be a bit of a pain |
| 14:09.47 | Ennea | but sure, technically possible |
| 14:10.43 | netameta | Well my LFG addon is not written on addon channel |
| 14:11.10 | netameta | it was written back in vanilla i dont think i even have it |
| 14:11.32 | netameta | they* |
| 14:14.40 | nevcairiel | I heard someone was reviving the Threat-2.0 library to keep track of threat, originally build in 2.4 to track threat from the new combat log, made redundant in 3.0 when threat API was introduced, a rather short life, but what did we know :D |
| 14:15.26 | Ennea | :D |
| 14:15.37 | Ennea | from combat log, though? will that work in classic? |
| 14:15.50 | Ennea | they seem to have brought down the combat log to vanilla level, too |
| 14:16.05 | nevcairiel | I wish they did that, that would be entertaining |
| 14:16.11 | nevcairiel | but no, its mostly intact |
| 14:16.25 | nevcairiel | some challenges with spell ranks, but you can overcome that |
| 14:16.36 | Ennea | oh, you can overcome the spell rank thing? |
| 14:16.37 | Ennea | how? |
| 14:17.03 | nevcairiel | well for threat tracking it likely doesnt even matter for the majority of times |
| 14:17.11 | nevcairiel | damage/healing matters, not the r ank used |
| 14:17.24 | Ennea | ah, i was just thinking about enemy cast bars again |
| 14:17.26 | nevcairiel | although some spells might have threat modifiers on some ranks, those will need cheating |
| 14:17.31 | Ennea | where rank would've mattered |
| 14:19.48 | netameta | nevcairiel, Wait so there's no way to actually fetch current threat |
| 14:19.49 | netameta | fuck me |
| 14:20.16 | netameta | so you have to do that by parsing combat log and going by spells/ranks ? |
| 14:20.26 | nevcairiel | yeah |
| 14:20.39 | nevcairiel | its really a silly decision to remove that data from classic, imho |
| 14:20.48 | nevcairiel | it wont stop threat meter, and will just annoy everyone |
| 14:20.54 | netameta | is this how threat meter addons doing it ? |
| 14:21.06 | Ennea | well.. "#nochanges", and all that |
| 14:21.13 | Ennea | to be honest, i can see where they're coming from |
| 14:21.39 | nevcairiel | i can't, because it doesnt make sense. With the new combatlog you can generate pretty accurate threat data anyway |
| 14:21.48 | nevcairiel | so it really changes nothing |
| 14:21.54 | Ennea | yea, okay, in that case it doesn't make much sense |
| 14:22.00 | nevcairiel | only puts more work onto addon authors, and more cpu usage on clients |
| 14:22.19 | netameta | nevcairiel, Is this how thread meters works ? |
| 14:22.34 | nevcairiel | threat meters just put hunters on top and call it a day |
| 14:22.36 | netameta | going of combatlog ? |
| 14:22.40 | netameta | lol |
| 14:22.54 | nevcairiel | its the only way, so you decide :D |
| 14:23.15 | foxlit | is it time for the friction conversation again? |
| 14:23.36 | netameta | i will read about the threat-2.0 library and see if this exist, if not maybe it works writing |
| 14:24.00 | foxlit | By making some thing inconvinient, they reduce people's motivation to do them. If turns out that some people are overly persistent, sledgehammers come out and wreck things until the intended effect is achieved. |
| 14:24.14 | nevcairiel | threat isnt even that |
| 14:24.20 | nevcairiel | since this is litereally how it worked in classic |
| 14:24.27 | nevcairiel | so its back to the roots, not new persistence |
| 14:25.03 | foxlit | look, the classic experience is "WAIT FOR THE TANK TO SUNDER THEM X TIMES" not "Stare at this bar" |
| 14:25.30 | nevcairiel | but thats just a convenient story, not how it really was |
| 14:25.39 | netameta | foxlit, but classic did have threat meters |
| 14:25.44 | netameta | i mean vanilla |
| 14:26.03 | netameta | and you did follow that if you were in a decent guild |
| 14:26.25 | ls- | the spirit of classic is the new maymay in our community, it seems |
| 14:26.42 | ls- | netameta, classic had lfg addons as well, didn't stop them from nuking it |
| 14:26.44 | nevcairiel | people are looking for an idealized v ersion of classic, not an authentic version |
| 14:27.25 | netameta | ls-, i dont remember any lfg addons but i see you point |
| 14:27.39 | foxlit | but real talk, when did the first threat meter addon appear? |
| 14:27.58 | nevcairiel | not exactly sure, but in BWL it certainly was a thing at some point |
| 14:28.01 | nevcairiel | so not that far in |
| 14:28.41 | netameta | mc as well |
| 14:28.55 | foxlit | um, dates would be more helpful than raid instances |
| 14:29.10 | nevcairiel | my memory has no dates anymore 15 years later, sorry |
| 14:29.38 | netameta | i guess first thing i should write, is a little library that parses combat log - use some sort of pubSub, and fire events based on the parsed log |
| 14:29.48 | netameta | then will see how threat works |
| 14:30.06 | foxlit | (or at least some indication that that was the most relevant raid at the time -- classic progression kind of smears, so you might've been doing MC at the time someone else was doing AQ40) |
| 14:30.09 | netameta | foxlit, would be really hard to remember date |
| 14:30.37 | netameta | it was a thing about 6 -8 months after release of wow |
| 14:30.50 | netameta | maybe even before that |
| 14:34.24 | foxlit | https://www.method.gg/raid-history is kind of fun; find the first video with a threat meter visible. |
| 14:36.28 | netameta | foxlit, So you've found it |
| 14:36.47 | foxlit | nope. |
| 14:39.17 | znf | The hypocrisy is strong with the classic crowd |
| 14:39.34 | ls- | no shit |
| 14:39.42 | znf | I wish everyone could shut up about it, but everywhere you go it's classic this, classic that |
| 14:40.37 | foxlit | you're right, we should should talk about ffxiv instead: the game that's better in every possible way :P |
| 14:41.35 | ls- | wish it had addons though |
| 14:41.39 | znf | When you say FF all I know is the meme that you get banned for telling players they are doing shit dps |
| 14:42.11 | foxlit | did you know FFXIV has boss themes? |
| 14:42.22 | znf | That's all my knowledge of it, and that's where my interest disappeared |
| 14:42.38 | znf | I don't know what a boss theme is |
| 14:42.55 | netameta | wait so blizzard are also against threat meter addons ? |
| 14:43.28 | nevcairiel | blizzard is not consistent, they basically listen too much to vocal minorities riled up by streamers |
| 14:43.33 | ls- | we don't know... the spirit of classic is unpredictable :D |
| 14:43.48 | nevcairiel | Also, they really never talk about their plans |
| 14:43.53 | foxlit | znf: okay, first things first: the game has music. |
| 14:44.15 | ls- | spotify > in-game music |
| 14:44.16 | nevcairiel | Its funny how the community praises them for their communication, but in reality all they do is react, they not once communicated plans |
| 14:44.25 | netameta | so a person can spend days/weeks writing something just to have it ourlawed :-) |
| 14:44.26 | foxlit | additionally, some boss encounters have encounter-specific music. |
| 14:44.26 | ls- | but ff14 has miqote! |
| 14:44.30 | nevcairiel | So all we can do is guess how they will react in the future |
| 14:44.50 | znf | Just bribe streamers |
| 14:45.00 | znf | Honestly, I find this bullshit |
| 14:45.00 | foxlit | nevcairiel: I think they've communicated plenty of plans; it's just that the addon surface isn't covered by them. |
| 14:45.21 | znf | To get shit fixed in the game you need to get popular streamers involved |
| 14:45.23 | nevcairiel | And without addons, WoW would've been dead years ago |
| 14:45.49 | foxlit | that's a rather bold claim. |
| 14:46.17 | foxlit | in any case, they've never really communicated addon changes in any meaningful way. |
| 14:46.23 | znf | When the Shadow community discovered that issue with the shoulders, we only got it fixed because streamers got riled up |
| 14:46.28 | netameta | nevcairiel, does combat log tells you which specific mob got which specific threat ? |
| 14:47.07 | netameta | if it just tell you spell on a unit name - that wont be enough |
| 14:48.09 | nevcairiel | This isn't about addon changes on a technical level, but they said stuff about this "spirit of classic" or whatever without any explanation whatsoever. What does that even mean? OG vanilla allowed us to make litereally any addon, including bots, yet Classic now gets the addon-police, knowing wtf they want would help us understand |
| 14:48.41 | nevcairiel | Also, the retail UI team does plenty communication these days |
| 14:49.19 | foxlit | ha. |
| 14:49.25 | foxlit | What are they doing about ShowUIPanel? |
| 14:50.13 | foxlit | hell, what are they working on restricting for the next patch? :P |
| 14:50.22 | *** join/#wowuidev Kalroth (~Kalroth@knas.io) |
| 14:50.59 | nevcairiel | noone said that everthing was or had to be transparent, but at least we can ask and get answers |
| 14:51.24 | Ennea | let's see what communication will look like after release |
| 14:51.41 | nevcairiel | Did you look at the classic UI code and what mess they've made of it? |
| 14:52.27 | nevcairiel | I had so many cases of stuff not working anymore only because they intentionally broke some utility function, just so the default UI changes behavior - instead of just changing the calling code |
| 14:53.59 | *** join/#wowuidev fusionpit (~fusionpit@161.97.230.186) |
| 14:54.09 | foxlit | but they said stuff about this "spirit of classic" or whatever without any explanation whatsoever. << I think the objective is to replicate the player experience as it was in vanilla, modulo whatever things the designers consider mitigatable exploits now. |
| 14:54.33 | Mr_Rabies | i don't know why they didn't just restore the 1.12 addon api if they were gonna kill stuff like actual threat info etc |
| 14:54.40 | nevcairiel | And what if I had a vastly different experience then some other dude? |
| 14:54.42 | fusionpit | foxlit, according to https://web.archive.org/web/20070822231846/http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/4204/ KTM was created on 2006-03-01 |
| 14:54.46 | Ennea | nevcairiel, some of it, and we did talk about the mess that the map is, remember? |
| 14:54.58 | Ennea | but who knows, honestly. let's see where classic will go once it's released |
| 14:57.00 | nevcairiel | March 2006, that was when AQ was technically already in the game, but possibly not unlocked on many servers yet? I forgot how long people took to open it |
| 14:57.33 | foxlit | fusionpit: thanks. That's 15 months after release, during AQ40. |
| 14:58.15 | foxlit | nevcairiel: Twin Emps world first on 2006-01-29; C'Thun on 2006-04-25. |
| 14:58.29 | nevcairiel | not interested in world-firsts, but average raiders =p |
| 14:58.56 | netameta | fusionpit, was KTM first or omen ? |
| 14:59.28 | nevcairiel | 2006-01-29 only 2 realsm had even opened the gates, according to wowwiki |
| 14:59.39 | Ketho | ls-: I'm sold, those miqo'te are hot |
| 15:00.19 | ls- | I'm considering changing my miqote pld into viera pld :D |
| 15:00.27 | ls- | bunny girls! \o/ |
| 15:00.39 | Ennea | too bad they fixed those buggy viera voice samples ;D |
| 15:00.49 | ls- | :V |
| 15:01.02 | Kalroth | i think they should ban addons in classic, that'd make the raid encounters a tiny bit more exciting! |
| 15:01.44 | netameta | kalroth for president ! |
| 15:01.57 | Mr_Rabies | tbh i think if blizzard thought they could get away with banning addons in retail they'd do it |
| 15:02.12 | Mr_Rabies | it's clear they look at them as a waste of money to maintain the API now |
| 15:02.14 | foxlit | ls-: more importantly, why "pld"? |
| 15:02.37 | nevcairiel | http://web.archive.org/web/20060221143530/http://wow-europe.com:80/en/info/basics/events/wareffort/servers.html by Feb21 a vast majority of realms was still locked out of AQ |
| 15:02.43 | foxlit | needs more jobs :) |
| 15:02.54 | Kalroth | Mr_Rabies: it'd be easier if addon writers weren't so demanding and finding all those bugs and didn't try to cut corners and ..! |
| 15:03.25 | ls- | I play tanks exclusively and out of all tanks in ff14 I like pld the most, but I do a lot of crafting :D |
| 15:03.48 | ls- | tbqh, I haven't played shadowbringers that much yet, don't have enough time for ff14 atm T_T |
| 15:04.00 | Ennea | supposedly, the story in shadowbringers is 11/10 |
| 15:04.22 | ls- | pld is basically my main, but I have almost all jobs capped |
| 15:04.49 | ls- | yeah, heard good stuff about it |
| 15:05.01 | foxlit | it *is* good. |
| 15:06.02 | Kalroth | nevcairiel: by april it's still about 50/50 with a closed gate, so .. :p |
| 15:06.43 | fusionpit | netameta, according to https://web.archive.org/web/20071011000418/http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/9101/ omen came out 2007-09-09 |
| 15:07.24 | Kalroth | there was at least one popular threat addon before omen |
| 15:07.44 | Kalroth | kh something? i forget, but it was pretty mandatory for that second fight in BWL |
| 15:07.53 | Mr_Rabies | KTM? |
| 15:08.01 | Kalroth | yeah, could be that one |
| 15:08.21 | Kalroth | yup, KLHThreatMeter |
| 15:08.39 | Mr_Rabies | if they're gonna be anachronistic with what they allow they might as well allow you to get actual threat, enemy cast bars etc |
| 15:08.50 | Mr_Rabies | why restrict those but not open up the other stuff that 1.12 api let you do |
| 15:09.31 | foxlit | the magic disappears as you quantify things. |
| 15:10.23 | ls- | ð |
| 15:10.31 | Kalroth | i recall the initial discussions around raid addons, seems like we've come full circle :) |
| 15:11.01 | ls- | blizz should bring vanilla raid frames back |
| 15:11.11 | Mr_Rabies | i legit think they would have been better off just bringing in the 1.12 addon api and they'd have much less of a shitstorm, this cutting from both sides thing is stupid |
| 15:11.18 | ls- | using current cata goodness is heresy! |
| 15:11.48 | foxlit | I couldn't solo the second binding coil unsynced :( |
| 15:12.13 | ls- | addon devs would abuse the hell out of 1.12 api |
| 15:12.35 | Mr_Rabies | of course, but they could just fall back on "this was technically allowed in 1.12" |
| 15:12.54 | Mr_Rabies | when they're restricting stuff arbitrarily that makes that a lot harder to do |
| 15:13.50 | Mr_Rabies | 1.12 was already quite a bit locked down from the launch API |
| 15:14.17 | Mr_Rabies | i think they nerfed decursive somehow before BWL's launch |
| 15:14.19 | ls- | still not enough |
| 15:14.28 | Mr_Rabies | it may have just been mana cost etc |
| 15:18.26 | foxlit | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLCWCPyxByg |
| 15:19.44 | Mr_Rabies | does FFXIV have voice over for quests etc? |
| 15:20.04 | foxlit | it's mixed. |
| 15:20.08 | Mr_Rabies | and can you swap it to japanese audio? |
| 15:20.12 | foxlit | yes. |
| 15:20.15 | Mr_Rabies | neat |
| 15:21.02 | nevcairiel | its not some silly emo teen drama like 15, is it? |
| 15:21.48 | foxlit | I don't think that would work in an mmo. |
| 15:21.56 | foxlit | would you all be the emo teen? :) |
| 15:22.12 | nevcairiel | i'm sure they would find a way |
| 15:23.00 | Mr_Rabies | if anyone knows how to make any protagonist the emo team it's the final fantasy wing of square enix |
| 15:23.07 | Mr_Rabies | teen* lmao |
| 15:24.21 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (Funkeh`@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 15:25.20 | Mr_Rabies | i think an ichiro mizuki song woulda made that fight incredible, foxlit |
| 15:29.54 | Mr_Rabies | but i guess ichiro mizuki sings for heroes, kind of weird to have an enemy combiner robot in general even if it's a great idea for a boss fight |
| 15:33.57 | foxlit | The ffxiv player characters strike a nice balance between existing and not-existing, I think. |
| 15:35.53 | Mr_Rabies | on one hand i think i'd love a japanese-style storytelling MMO i've also played enough square games to know i'm not sure i could take the story seriously |
| 15:36.37 | Mr_Rabies | find me an mmo with the story written by kouhei kadono and i think i'd probably unsub from wow in a heartbeat so long as it was also fun :v |
| 15:37.32 | nevcairiel | story in an mmo specifically is imho not that crucial. mmo's are supposed to have longevity, and story you only experience once at the beginning |
| 15:37.48 | Ennea | ls-, out of curiosity, what stuff could be abused on the 1.12 api? |
| 15:38.14 | Mr_Rabies | honestly i think most of the stuff abused in 1.12 goes much deeper than the api |
| 15:38.15 | Ennea | nevcairiel, ff14 does the balance well. every expansion has new story, and pretty good story at that |
| 15:38.16 | nevcairiel | stuff like swtor fell into th at trap before already, t he story was fun, longevity/endgame missing, so it could've as well been a single player game for many people |
| 15:38.28 | Mr_Rabies | much more basic anticheat stuff in the actual client etc |
| 15:38.56 | Mr_Rabies | they're making a jojo's bizarre adventure fortnite game so anything is on the table now as far as i'm concerned |
| 15:40.33 | Mr_Rabies | and it's an arcade game i guess? wtf |
| 15:41.56 | foxlit | I don't think I like wow's way of doing longevity presently. |
| 15:42.23 | Mr_Rabies | i feel like everyone can see the stick holding the carrot infront of them now |
| 15:42.47 | Mr_Rabies | they broke the illusion of your time being worth something in a big way years back |
| 15:43.11 | foxlit | The world has tons of shit to do and I somehow want none of it. |
| 15:43.29 | Mr_Rabies | now it's just a treadmill that occasionally slows down to take more people's money and then speed back up |
| 15:43.36 | Mr_Rabies | because it really doesn't, foxlit |
| 15:43.49 | Mr_Rabies | it's got tons of the same 10 quests |
| 15:44.04 | Mr_Rabies | that you've already done 100 times just in bfa |
| 15:44.32 | foxlit | "Grind AP so that you can put more things in your necklace!" "Grind rep so that you can unlock flying!" "Grind gear so that... [I don't actually know why I want gear. It clearly won't get me into groups.]" |
| 15:44.43 | Mr_Rabies | world quests don't really contribute to the story other than maybe a small amount of world building in like 10% of them |
| 15:45.05 | Mr_Rabies | honestly most of the grind now just feels like you're just grinding to do what you already could do |
| 15:45.15 | Mr_Rabies | instead of grinding to get new/interesting stuff |
| 15:45.48 | Mr_Rabies | they de-power you as you level in an expansion just to give it back at level cap over a long period of time |
| 15:45.56 | Mr_Rabies | and that combination feels awful |
| 15:46.03 | nevcairiel | the thing is that its all the same concept in different colors. we've had daily quests since BC, and the concept never really changed, just got re-painted occasionally. The only difference is that now there is no final end anymore |
| 15:46.21 | *** join/#wowuidev stolenlegacy (~stolenleg@unaffiliated/stolenlegacy) |
| 15:46.41 | Mr_Rabies | the final end is basically just deciding they're not worth doing (outside of very specific emissaries etc) |
| 15:46.53 | Mr_Rabies | as a result i play maybe 3 hours a week now outside of raid time |
| 15:47.02 | Mr_Rabies | and i don't even have a job right now |
| 15:47.33 | nevcairiel | but thats not a good end. The thing is, what sort of repeatable content would get people to do it .. repeatedly? Everything wears out, and rewards only go so far, eventually you have them |
| 15:47.50 | nevcairiel | Daily quests before Legion you did until Exalted, the end. |
| 15:47.54 | Mr_Rabies | i would say that approach is where the flaw is |
| 15:48.22 | Mr_Rabies | i've had super mario bros on NES since i was born (my siblings owned an NES) |
| 15:48.37 | Mr_Rabies | and i still play that to this day |
| 15:49.16 | Mr_Rabies | the problem is there's no real fun in doing the repeating content in wow, but somehow super mario bros remains fun no matter how many times i play it |
| 15:49.45 | nevcairiel | I don't think I would have that much fun playing such a thing outside of a short nostalgia trip |
| 15:49.48 | Mr_Rabies | you can design a good experience that is fun to repeat, but as soon as you mandate that repetition it really kills the fun |
| 15:50.03 | Mr_Rabies | like metal gear rising, for example |
| 15:50.13 | Mr_Rabies | that game takes maybe 4-5 hours to beat the first time you play it |
| 15:50.20 | Mr_Rabies | but it has so much replay value |
| 15:50.49 | nevcairiel | "mandate" is a mind thing though, as soon as you give a reward for anything, people in a competitive game will feel compelled to do it to death, wear out, and complain |
| 15:51.29 | Mr_Rabies | only if it improves your competitive advantage and there's a sense that if you don't you'll fall behind |
| 15:51.46 | Mr_Rabies | no one really bothers doing pet battles nowadays unless they enjoy them, for example |
| 15:52.18 | nevcairiel | and then they notice that not being ready to do pet battle WQs deprives them of some rep, and complain anyway :p |
| 15:52.46 | Mr_Rabies | some people did grind them when nazjatar released because it would give them a competitive advantage |
| 15:53.06 | Mr_Rabies | getting to exalted earlier means getting crafting recipes earlier, etc |
| 15:53.31 | Mr_Rabies | or revered gets you flying, which is a huge competitive advantage on many stages of the game |
| 15:55.14 | nevcairiel | sure, but being a day behind isn't going to make you worse, just don't pvp for a day or whatever until you have it as well. People just take the game too serious |
| 15:56.33 | Mr_Rabies | depends on what competition you're in |
| 15:56.52 | Mr_Rabies | if you're talking character strength, yeah, not really especially with how scarce boes are this patch |
| 15:57.09 | Mr_Rabies | but being the first on the market with stuff people need can make you a ton of gold |
| 15:57.39 | Mr_Rabies | which can net you some player strength gains if you're willing on droppin a million gold on BoEs lol |
| 15:57.47 | foxlit | I still don't have flying :( |
| 15:58.11 | Mr_Rabies | nazjatar is 1000x better with flying |
| 15:58.48 | Mr_Rabies | it went from feeling poorly designed to clearly being designed with flying, to that annoying smelly fish place i never go in about two months |
| 15:58.51 | nevcairiel | Its the same with people complaining about a content patch having no content. What sort of content would you want? A large one-time campaign? How long is large? 12+ hours playing? Ok, unlock it all at once, and day 2-3 "everyone" still has nothing to do. Time Gate it, an hour a day? 4 hours a week? People complain about time gating, but at least something to do for a few weeks. |
| 15:59.14 | Mr_Rabies | i actually have no problem with time gating when it's done well |
| 15:59.19 | Mr_Rabies | but like |
| 15:59.20 | foxlit | I'm happy with ffxiv's handling of end-game content. |
| 15:59.28 | Mr_Rabies | the suramar time gating stuff pre-nighthold was laughable |
| 15:59.44 | Mr_Rabies | it was full of typos, every week was literally like 5 minutes of generic quest |
| 16:00.25 | nevcairiel | suramar was actually fine, what was silly was that other island place, that was litereally your 5 minute quest every week |
| 16:00.25 | Mr_Rabies | there were basically 3 real quests with lots of stupid filler in between to make it take however many weeks to complete |
| 16:00.56 | Mr_Rabies | i don't mean the suramar stuff at legion launch, i mean the pre-nighthold questline |
| 16:00.58 | foxlit | which is basically "no time gates on story content" |
| 16:01.25 | foxlit | and weekly loot lockouts in bleeding edge raids. |
| 16:03.15 | foxlit | realistically, if you're Awesome McFancypants, you could get your week's worth of limited progression done in an hour or two. |
| 16:03.42 | Mr_Rabies | what if you're joe averageplayer |
| 16:03.55 | Mr_Rabies | because that's a pretty small amount of content lol |
| 16:04.05 | foxlit | you can spend as much time wiping in savage raids as you wish. |
| 16:04.18 | Mr_Rabies | is savage like mythic or whatever? |
| 16:05.03 | nevcairiel | I like being able to improve my character outside of fully organized raid content, but I think there should be more of a cap on that, either some "end" you can reach sooner, so you are done until the next major system update, or a weekly cap sort of thing |
| 16:05.11 | Chipzz | the Suramar questline being gated by rep was stupid |
| 16:05.54 | Chipzz | personally I hate questing and I want to get all of it done ASAP |
| 16:06.11 | foxlit | yes; there are two raid tiers: normal is what everyone can clear as part of story progression (lax tuning), savage is the "well, we cut the telegraphs, increased mechanical complexity, and increased the numbers, go have fun" progression tier. |
| 16:06.13 | Chipzz | (the mandatory quests, I mean) |
| 16:06.53 | Mr_Rabies | honestly i could see them either merging lfr and normal or nixing one of the two difficulties soon |
| 16:07.17 | nevcairiel | I doubt that, there really is no gain from that |
| 16:07.22 | foxlit | The rest of your playtime, if you have more time, can be spent on non-limited progression: you can level gathering/crafting professions, alt jobs, etc. |
| 16:07.24 | Mr_Rabies | the raids are getting so undertuned with the gear people have because BFA is vomiting so much insane gear on everyone |
| 16:07.53 | nevcairiel | They could just make raids harder, thats is unrelated to how many raid difficulties there are |
| 16:08.38 | Mr_Rabies | well, there being so many difficulties is part of why item level constantly bloats every tier, so they have a reason to cut that |
| 16:09.14 | Mr_Rabies | and i feel the undertuning is intentional but short-sighted, possibly they're undertuning it to get people to say either lfr or normal are no longer different enough to warrant seperating |
| 16:09.42 | nevcairiel | there is a huge difference, LFR is auto-grouping, normal is organized |
| 16:10.39 | Mr_Rabies | but normal is easier than lfr if you put in a modicum of time setting up your group |
| 16:10.49 | Mr_Rabies | even just a little bit of setup and it's way easier than lfr |
| 16:11.52 | Mr_Rabies | i could actually see them just doing LFR, Normal, and heroic again, because normal is so laughably undertuned at this point i think a lucky lfr group could clear it |
| 16:11.59 | Mr_Rabies | but that could just be oversignt on blizzard's part |
| 16:12.16 | Mr_Rabies | i haven't killed a single mythic boss yet but i have a 440 average item level |
| 16:12.28 | Mr_Rabies | i'm going into mythic raids with mythic-level gear, give or take |
| 16:12.40 | nevcairiel | thats not LFRs fault, but a consequence of everything else. LFR is really only being used by totally undergeared alts these days, because everyone else gets gear better then LFR from WQs and dungeons |
| 16:12.46 | Mr_Rabies | and i understand once you're really into the meat and potatoes of mythic no amount of gear will save you |
| 16:13.10 | Mr_Rabies | but it kinda kills the drive to do it when you don't really need the gear and you see the hours and hours of wipes ahead |
| 16:13.19 | foxlit | nevcairiel: I think the absence of an automatic matchmarker that puts you in mildly challenging content is a mistake. |
| 16:13.38 | Mr_Rabies | that's basically what i'm saying, nevcairiel |
| 16:13.53 | Mr_Rabies | i'm saying normal is so easy now that you might as well just merge lfr and normal |
| 16:14.20 | nevcairiel | i didnt even bring any other raids into my statement, so how can this be what you said =P |
| 16:14.24 | Mr_Rabies | and i'm wondering if that's blizzard's intention, basically make them indistinguishable to save them the work both short and longterm |
| 16:14.38 | nevcairiel | WQ emissaries give imho too high gear, it really doesnt need to be 415 |
| 16:15.13 | nevcairiel | The problem isnt how hard or easy LFR is, the problem is that you don't even need it to gear yourself |
| 16:15.29 | Mr_Rabies | well i'm super glad you don't |
| 16:15.41 | Mr_Rabies | because i hate lfr and having to do it for tier gear was awful |
| 16:15.50 | nevcairiel | I think you should, or have a group that takes you to normal raids regardless |
| 16:16.07 | Mr_Rabies | they shouldn't make anyone that doesn't want to be in that awful place do it |
| 16:16.07 | nevcairiel | Being able to get better gear then LFR from WQ emissaries is just silly |
| 16:16.18 | Mr_Rabies | because you start getting even more griefers |
| 16:16.48 | Mr_Rabies | when you're forced to do that kind of braindead content people start to find ways to make the raid fun at least |
| 16:17.01 | Mr_Rabies | like forcing a wipe, watching youtube instead, etc |
| 16:17.09 | nevcairiel | imho, they need to preserve the gear scale more towards the middle/end of expansions |
| 16:17.26 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (Funkeh`@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 16:17.56 | nevcairiel | At the beginning, its typically Hero Dungeon -> M Dungeon -> Normal Raid. LFR sits on the side to that as a step up from H dungeons if they don't do M |
| 16:18.28 | Mr_Rabies | the emissaries and M+ really do make gearing way too easy, but i really appreciate it for my alts |
| 16:18.30 | nevcairiel | but over the course of the expansion, that totally shifts and you get all sorts of gear from elsewhere |
| 16:18.35 | Mr_Rabies | mostly the emissaries lol |
| 16:19.12 | Mr_Rabies | if they maybe scaled the gear based on your best character and made it take like, heroic level raid gear before you started seeing 415s or something maybe |
| 16:19.43 | nevcairiel | whats the point of that when you are already 430 :D |
| 16:19.48 | Mr_Rabies | 430+ on your main you start seeing 415s on your alt, with the chance increasing based on that character's ilevel too |
| 16:20.41 | Mr_Rabies | i.e. if that alt is 200 you basically never see 415s but when that alt hits 385 they're popping up to 415 more i dunno |
| 16:21.28 | Mr_Rabies | i think it is important for the health of the game for alts to be easier to do stuff on if you've already done it once |
| 16:21.39 | Mr_Rabies | but i could definitely see downsides to just handing your alts the same gear your main has |
| 16:22.48 | Mr_Rabies | i really think raids should be the only place to get anything higher than 415 though, tbh |
| 16:23.04 | Mr_Rabies | i do my weekly +10 because leaving that gear on the table is still not worth it, but i really hate keystones |
| 16:24.08 | znf | the emissary gear is useless tough |
| 16:24.14 | Mr_Rabies | i made an exception and did content without 100% guildies for the first time in a very long time this week and our healer just randomly bailed 3/4 of the way into the keystone run |
| 16:24.18 | znf | for anything except alts |
| 16:24.19 | nevcairiel | I liked M+ more in Legion, and IMHO thats because deungeons have become too overengineered |
| 16:24.41 | nevcairiel | Every trash pack has like 5 abilities now that you need to handle |
| 16:24.44 | znf | I like the concept of seasonal affixes |
| 16:24.44 | Mr_Rabies | they're designed with M+ being powerful/competitive in mind now |
| 16:24.50 | znf | But that's about it |
| 16:25.22 | Mr_Rabies | but i would be okay if they just offered xmog gear, mounts, etc like in wod |
| 16:25.25 | znf | And M+ just highlights how bad is the azerite system tbh :-/ |
| 16:25.53 | znf | grinding M+ every week just to roll on azerite gear is meh |
| 16:26.25 | Mr_Rabies | they really should let you bring in ringers once the keystone timer fails, for folks like me that just care about getting that weekly done to check the box |
| 16:26.57 | nevcairiel | What I would actually like is hard dungeon variant thats not timer bound, sort of like a mini raid, but I don't know how that would work properly |
| 16:27.14 | Mr_Rabies | it's much less timer bound now than it used to be |
| 16:27.22 | Mr_Rabies | if you just ignore the timer you do still get loot |
| 16:27.39 | nevcairiel | of course, but you need to complete at least one in time each week or your stone drops =p |
| 16:27.48 | Mr_Rabies | that was a much closer fit for me |
| 16:27.56 | Mr_Rabies | ah yeah, tbh i hate the stone system in general |
| 16:28.16 | znf | I think that would just make it worse |
| 16:28.49 | znf | like, we have a pack of 5 mobs which are deadly in any combination; we need 4 types of CCs to handle them effectively, so we need these 4 classes (or alternatives) to be able to do it |
| 16:29.41 | Mr_Rabies | would be nice to just be able to do the dungeon on whatever level you want, with it capped like it is at 430 for gear |
| 16:30.37 | Mr_Rabies | make it require you to beat the timer still for the weekly chest credit, but kill the keystone idea |
| 16:30.58 | Mr_Rabies | (or even lower, tbh, 430 gear for 5 man content is a bit absurd) |
| 16:31.10 | foxlit | why does it need a timer? |
| 16:32.10 | Mr_Rabies | because if you're getting some of the best gear in the game there should be some challenge |
| 16:32.51 | foxlit | could that not come from an enrage check on a single boss? |
| 16:33.14 | Mr_Rabies | not really no |
| 16:33.23 | Mr_Rabies | here's something they could do |
| 16:33.59 | Mr_Rabies | make a version without a timer, but require you to at least take 2 groups in there for m+ level gear, since that level of organization has some challenge involved |
| 16:34.20 | Mr_Rabies | but you couldn't do it in the same dungeons, so you may need to design dungeons specifically for this new 10+ man content |
| 16:34.28 | Mr_Rabies | not enough room, you see |
| 16:38.18 | foxlit | what made you decide that 10 players is a sufficient organizational challenge and 5 is not? |
| 16:38.45 | Mr_Rabies | experience with both |
| 16:39.59 | Mr_Rabies | 5 man content is trivial and the timer is the only way to keep it from being trivial short of making it so difficult that only raiders do it anyway |
| 16:40.50 | Mr_Rabies | you do still get gear if you can't beat the timer, but you can't get that really good gear unless you do |
| 16:40.55 | Mr_Rabies | i do think that's a good balance on it |
| 16:42.07 | Mr_Rabies | getting 430 gear for clearing a +10 on your own timetable is more than generous if you ask me |
| 16:45.12 | Mr_Rabies | that's heroic level raid gear for a fraction of the effort |
| 16:45.23 | Mr_Rabies | er heroic raid level gear |
| 16:49.14 | foxlit | I'm less interested in an argument about current dungeon design and relative rewards. I just think the focus on beating a timer produces some gameplay distortions that could be avoided if the challenge was shifted elsewhere. |
| 16:52.24 | Mr_Rabies | i think they've mostly done a bad job communicating how you still get gear from keystones now even if you don't clear the dungeon in time |
| 16:52.27 | Mr_Rabies | just less of it |
| 16:53.53 | Mr_Rabies | i do my +10 not really caring if we clear it or not in time because i'm just doing it for the easy gear that is better than anything i can currently get in raids and residiuum towards azerite gear better than what i can currently get in raids |
| 17:06.07 | Mr_Rabies | even the 430 gear from M+ is better for a lot of folks simply due to the fact that only so many secondary stats can be had for each slot from 8 bosses |
| 17:06.50 | Mr_Rabies | getting a guaranteed piece of 440 for 30 minutes a week is kinda dumb, in addition to residiuum towards a 445 azerite piece |
| 17:07.41 | Mr_Rabies | less than 2 hours a week for 3 weeks gets you 3 pieces of 440 gear and a 445 azerite piece, equivalent or better than mythic raid gear |
| 17:07.46 | Mr_Rabies | er |
| 17:08.01 | Mr_Rabies | less than 2 hours total content across 3 weeks gets you 3 pieces of 440 gear and a 445 azerite piece, equivalent or better than mythic raid gear* |
| 17:15.38 | znf | That guy should have just called it "Make A Group" instead of ClassicLFG |
| 17:15.47 | znf | It would have flown under the radar |
| 17:16.06 | znf | But classic imbeciles see LFG and get triggered |
| 17:17.40 | *** join/#wowuidev Kesava_ (~kesava@unaffiliated/sliker) |
| 17:21.32 | *** join/#wowuidev Arrowmaster (~Arrowmast@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/ResponsibleForEverythingAndNothing/Arrowmaster) |
| 17:25.39 | Ennea | good point, yea |
| 17:28.28 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> I love how they think it was able to teleport players to the dungeon |
| 17:35.28 | *** join/#wowuidev Seerah (~umsin@75-36-111-192.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net) |
| 17:35.29 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ |
| 17:35.58 | *** join/#wowuidev Andols (~yaaic@2a00:801:3fa:c9c:10b9:42aa:61e2:bf99) |
| 17:36.18 | znf | They also think it facilitates x-realm |
| 17:41.11 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> well streaming wasn't a thing in classic.. can we get rid of that? |
| 17:41.25 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> I might be able to dust off the old lib.. _Corpse |
| 17:42.26 | Ennea | i remember that name.. what did it do again? |
| 17:43.24 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> added people to your friends list to see if they was online so you could resurrect them.. it worked on the opposite faction also so you could camp them |
| 17:43.41 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> i used it for the latter |
| 17:44.31 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> it was broken in wotlk |
| 17:50.42 | *** join/#wowuidev A-KO (A-KO@2605:a601:a70e:1d00:f95d:67cd:3d5a:9751) |
| 17:57.04 | Ketho | do bodies stay when someone logs out in classic? |
| 17:59.18 | nebula | there was post about skeletons timing out quickly, i imagine that applies to bodies as well |
| 17:59.59 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> drawing in he 3d world should be possible in classic as it was prior to the avr nerf as well |
| 18:00.27 | A-KO | Skeletons always timed out pretty quickly IIRC -- but bodies should stay around if the person logged out w/o releasing |
| 18:00.35 | A-KO | or without rezzing |
| 18:01.17 | nebula | in vanilla skeletons stayed around for a long time |
| 18:01.22 | A-KO | ah |
| 18:01.35 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> for a really long time |
| 18:01.50 | A-KO | I'm sure they'll fix it if it's brought up, though. |
| 18:01.54 | A-KO | maybe |
| 18:02.08 | *** join/#wowuidev Andols (~yaaic@2a00:801:300:80b7:d419:2b54:744f:ec17) |
| 18:02.09 | A-KO | 'cause now that you mention it, they actually did. The experience of running into brm with a pile of bones lol |
| 18:02.34 | nebula | Q: Will the Skeletons that appear when someone dies be the same as it was originally? Right now they disappear after you die again, they used to stay longer than that. |
| 18:02.34 | nebula | A: While we understand that this was a flavorful part of Original WoW and the earlier expansions, individual players leaving multiple player corpses and skeletons throughout the game world can lead to behavior such as spelling out advertisements, hate speech, and other negative messages. As such, this will not be a part of WoW Classic. |
| 18:02.57 | A-KO | oh |
| 18:02.57 | A-KO | darn |
| 18:03.07 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> but it is Classic |
| 18:03.23 | A-KO | I mean it makes sense I suppose |
| 18:06.52 | znf | MAH IMMERZION |
| 18:07.16 | Kalroth | classic needs to be more like dark souls imo |
| 18:08.53 | *** join/#wowuidev Semlar (~semlar@072-189-128-149.res.spectrum.com) |
| 18:09.55 | znf | that would be x-realm, Kalroth |
| 18:09.56 | znf | doesn't fly |
| 18:10.10 | nebula | invades Kalroth's realm |
| 18:10.31 | Kalroth | dies by random trash before nebula can kill him |
| 18:16.21 | Ketho | didn't someone make a "YOU DIED" addon |
| 18:17.03 | Mr_Rabies | yup |
| 18:17.49 | Mr_Rabies | they shoulda made a YOU RECOVERED when you res at your corpse if they didn't |
| 18:23.39 | *** join/#wowuidev Andols (~yaaic@2a00:801:300:80b7:d419:2b54:744f:ec17) |
| 18:53.23 | netameta | Which of the threat meters work right now ? |
| 18:55.31 | netameta | in classic tat is |
| 19:02.14 | EsreverWoW | @netameta, saw the earlier conversation about Threat-2.0 but wasn't able to respond then. |
| 19:02.40 | EsreverWoW | This is what I've been working on as a continuation of that. https://github.com/EsreverWoW/LibThreatClassic |
| 19:02.45 | EsreverWoW | Used in https://github.com/EsreverWoW/ClassicThreatMeter |
| 19:03.30 | EsreverWoW | I was trying to just get it out the door and am worrying about cleaning things up after launch once things have settled a bit. |
| 19:03.43 | znf | excuse me, what the fuck https://i.imgur.com/H3wmXgM.png ? |
| 19:05.17 | nebula | get fucked |
| 19:07.19 | Ennea | lol |
| 19:08.27 | znf | I already had around 25 people in the group |
| 19:08.58 | znf | but for some reasons, the group just unlisted itself |
| 19:22.51 | *** join/#wowuidev Andols (~yaaic@2a00:801:300:80b7:d419:2b54:744f:ec17) |
| 19:35.54 | *** join/#wowuidev mikma (mikma@kinky.fi) |
| 19:55.34 | *** join/#wowuidev MooreaTv (~MooreaTV@172-10-234-41.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 19:56.32 | *** join/#wowuidev eke00372 (~eke00372@unaffiliated/eke00372) |
| 20:02.40 | netameta | EsreverWoW, So battleShout gives 69 for every person in party on each mob in the group ? |
| 20:03.34 | EsreverWoW | I think you're looking at the old TBC modules. |
| 20:03.36 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> i like that number |
| 20:03.49 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> o/ EserverWoW |
| 20:03.53 | EsreverWoW | o/ |
| 20:04.07 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> even though I forgot the r lol |
| 20:04.09 | EsreverWoW | netameta - Classic is bShoutRank * Affected Targets |
| 20:04.23 | EsreverWoW | errrr |
| 20:04.37 | EsreverWoW | rather bShoutRankLearnLevel * affectedTargets |
| 20:04.58 | netameta | learn level regardless the one you use ? |
| 20:05.09 | EsreverWoW | 1, 12, 22, 32, 42, 52, 60 - ranks 1-7 |
| 20:05.37 | EsreverWoW | So rank 1 bShout is 1 threat per application, applied to all mobs that are in combat with the players affected. |
| 20:05.49 | EsreverWoW | Rank 6 is 52 to each mob. |
| 20:06.12 | EsreverWoW | It's completely broken (it was fixed sometime after 2.0 and before 2.1). |
| 20:06.13 | netameta | ok so say it effected whole party it will be say 69*5 = 345 - for each of the mobs in party or does that spread ? |
| 20:06.22 | EsreverWoW | It does silly amounts of threat in certain situations. |
| 20:06.35 | EsreverWoW | 69 is not a threat value used. |
| 20:06.49 | EsreverWoW | 60 is max rank before modifiers like stance affecting it. |
| 20:07.07 | EsreverWoW | It can affect pets as well. Just not things like totems. |
| 20:07.30 | EsreverWoW | It is limited to the party, but let's say you had 1 war and 4 hunters with pets in party. That's 9 possible targets. |
| 20:07.36 | netameta | ok so 60*5 = 300 |
| 20:07.43 | netameta | but will that be applied to each mob ? |
| 20:07.43 | EsreverWoW | So 60 * 5 = 540 |
| 20:07.46 | EsreverWoW | Yes |
| 20:07.50 | EsreverWoW | It isn't split divided. |
| 20:07.54 | netameta | Wow |
| 20:07.59 | EsreverWoW | At least according to recent research. |
| 20:08.09 | EsreverWoW | https://github.com/magey/classic-warrior/wiki/Threat-Mechanics |
| 20:08.18 | netameta | assume unlike demo shout you cannot spam this though |
| 20:08.21 | Ennea | battle shout generates absurd amounts of threat? |
| 20:08.25 | EsreverWoW | Yes |
| 20:08.27 | Ennea | i didn't even know :D |
| 20:08.30 | Ennea | that's kinda funny |
| 20:08.47 | Ennea | sounds kind of unintended, too |
| 20:08.53 | EsreverWoW | I mean, Classic is a fucking mess of a game. |
| 20:09.04 | Ennea | it's a beautiful mess <3 |
| 20:09.10 | EsreverWoW | It doesn't have anywhere close to the "polish" retail has now. |
| 20:09.28 | EsreverWoW | Yeah, I think it was unintended, as there were patch notes on fixing it later on. |
| 20:09.43 | EsreverWoW | https://wow.gamepedia.com/Patch_2.0.1 |
| 20:09.44 | EsreverWoW | Fixed an issue where Warrior "Battle Shout" was causing too much threat. |
| 20:09.50 | Ennea | honestly, i'm hoping they'll try to get as close to vanilla as possible, and then start polishing everything from there |
| 20:10.02 | netameta | EsreverWoW, so basically battleshout 1 time and every time it fell off members, while you can spam demo for a flat 62*modifiers |
| 20:10.07 | EsreverWoW | I mean, they aren't touching 1.12 mechanics. |
| 20:10.11 | EsreverWoW | They want them warts and all. |
| 20:10.20 | Ennea | yea, for now |
| 20:10.31 | Ennea | but they also said they don't know what they will do after the 6 phases |
| 20:10.39 | Ennea | and that they're technically open for not continuing with tbc |
| 20:10.48 | EsreverWoW | Read the page I linked, netameta. |
| 20:10.49 | EsreverWoW | Reapplying buffs and debuffs continues to generate threat. |
| 20:10.50 | Ennea | which to me sounds like they may be up for polishing classic. and then perhaps even developing new content for it |
| 20:11.02 | Ennea | which i'd love |
| 20:11.02 | EsreverWoW | You can just keep applying it. |
| 20:11.07 | EsreverWoW | Don't need to wait for it to fall off. |
| 20:11.15 | EsreverWoW | It's actually stupid. |
| 20:11.25 | netameta | wait that's not consistent what what i remember |
| 20:11.27 | netameta | weird |
| 20:11.42 | netameta | demo yea, BS was a one time thing |
| 20:11.48 | netameta | that's just messed up |
| 20:11.53 | netameta | Reading that mage now |
| 20:12.22 | Ennea | go read the mage ;D |
| 20:31.52 | netameta | EsreverWoW, Buff threat is split among all mobs that the buff target is in combat with. |
| 20:31.57 | netameta | So it does split |
| 20:32.03 | netameta | But can be re applied |
| 20:39.40 | netameta | EsreverWoW - Is there no threat meters currently working for classic ? |
| 20:40.59 | EsreverWoW | In most cases, that is true. |
| 20:41.03 | EsreverWoW | bShout is an exception. |
| 20:41.14 | EsreverWoW | As I noted, it was bugged and causing to much threat. |
| 20:41.21 | EsreverWoW | Which got fixed in 2.0. |
| 20:41.33 | EsreverWoW | But it is still in its bugged state in Classic, as it has been tested. |
| 20:41.45 | EsreverWoW | Also, I linked my meter which works for Classic. |
| 20:42.12 | netameta | I am reading through it, i am curious what prompt you for creating a new meter |
| 20:42.17 | Mr_Rabies | good news is that most people will have plenty of time to play classic before a threat meter is even needed |
| 20:42.38 | *** join/#wowuidev A-KO (A-KO@2605:a601:a70e:1d00:3451:617:381c:d186) |
| 20:43.08 | Mr_Rabies | heck even in mc it was really only an issue for a few really well geared people |
| 20:43.34 | EsreverWoW | What prompted me? Because nobody else was making one, and the ones that existed weren't under permissive license. |
| 20:43.54 | EsreverWoW | At least none of the more full-featured ones. |
| 20:44.03 | Mr_Rabies | it wasn't until later raids that dps threat really got out of control |
| 20:44.15 | EsreverWoW | Plus, again, you can't rely on threat reporting from the server like you can on live. |
| 20:44.21 | EsreverWoW | So it has to be done by combat log parsing. |
| 20:44.27 | EsreverWoW | And no threat addons have done that since TBC. |
| 20:44.32 | EsreverWoW | So... limited options I guess? |
| 20:44.52 | Mr_Rabies | if you're well geared and worried about threat just wait for a couple sunders, once that gets outpaced hopefully someone will come up with something :v |
| 21:10.16 | *** join/#wowuidev Simca_ (~Simca@c-73-55-2-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) |
| 21:24.49 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (Funkeh`@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 21:42.36 | Maldivia | EsreverWoW: remember, it might be 1.13, but it's still mostly reworked 7.3/8.1 tech, so you have more bells and info available than in 1.12 |
| 21:42.56 | EsreverWoW | I'm aware of that. |
| 21:43.08 | *** join/#wowuidev harl (harl@unaffiliated/harl) |
| 21:43.32 | EsreverWoW | We have access to the patch 2.4+ combat log with CLEU returning a lot more workable info. |
| 21:43.36 | EsreverWoW | Which is being used. |
| 21:43.47 | netameta | Mr_Rabies, onyxia was not fun without some kinda of threat control |
| 21:44.04 | netameta | EsreverWoW, what you mean fully featured one ? and is your a sully featured one ? |
| 21:44.06 | Maldivia | dots more dots! |
| 21:44.28 | EsreverWoW | Fully featured as in something like Omen, where there's a plethora of config options and ways of displaying data. |
| 21:44.36 | EsreverWoW | There are simple ones that are under permissive licensing. |
| 21:44.43 | EsreverWoW | But the more advanced ones aren't. |
| 21:46.05 | netameta | EsreverWoW, Is there any of them that would tell you when you are close to losing aggro on a aoe pulls ? |
| 21:46.08 | EsreverWoW | But they changed spellIDs to always return 0 in the payload, so you have to guess by spellName for things like rank or referencing values for things like threat wipes/halves/etc. So you can get the NPC id from the GUID and make special cases for say something like "Knock Away" which is often a 0.5 modifier. |
| 21:46.12 | *** join/#wowuidev Andols (~yaaic@2a00:801:300:80b7:f858:3e9b:4fef:3c8f) |
| 21:46.13 | EsreverWoW | But on Ony it is 0.75. |
| 21:47.18 | EsreverWoW | netameta - I basically copied the way https://wow.gamepedia.com/API_UnitDetailedThreatSituation works, so you can get "status" as well as the threat values/percentages. |
| 21:47.48 | EsreverWoW | I added threat coloring for nameplates for stock nameplates. |
| 21:48.16 | EsreverWoW | No third-party plate support yet. Might just leave that up to each author to implement depending on if this takes off or not. |
| 21:48.47 | EsreverWoW | Always thought plat coloring was the best way to tell threat at a glance in a group. |
| 21:48.51 | EsreverWoW | plate* |
| 21:49.05 | netameta | it is |
| 21:49.33 | netameta | Wait so your addon now, if you have pulled say 5 mobs and losing aggro on 1, will it color the plat differently ? |
| 21:52.04 | EsreverWoW | Yes |
| 21:52.14 | EsreverWoW | Assuming the threat status changes. |
| 21:52.34 | netameta | I have to check that. |
| 21:52.41 | EsreverWoW | At the moment the threshold is just after they're over 100% but haven't hit above 1100%/130% to take over. |
| 21:52.42 | netameta | no other threat meter does that |
| 21:52.55 | EsreverWoW | Not in the original vanilla 1.12 client. |
| 21:53.15 | netameta | what ? |
| 21:53.16 | EsreverWoW | Because there were no GUIDs that could be attained from the combat log and associated with nameplate unitIDs. |
| 21:53.22 | EsreverWoW | But that is possible in Classic. |
| 21:53.26 | EsreverWoW | 1.13.2 is not 1.12. |
| 21:53.28 | netameta | Ah |
| 21:53.47 | netameta | ah so in classic you can get the GUID from combat log ? |
| 21:53.53 | EsreverWoW | Yes |
| 21:53.56 | netameta | Ah wow ok |
| 21:54.10 | netameta | so that answer the question i asked maldivia earlier |
| 21:54.31 | netameta | If you go by combat log can you know which exact mob was it casted on |
| 21:54.58 | netameta | and with guid you can, so you can track everything - amazing |
| 21:55.33 | netameta | I am going to read through it, and if it works as intended i will push it on my guild members. |
| 22:07.44 | EsreverWoW | I've got Onslaught trying it and a few others. Just report any issues on the tracker. https://github.com/EsreverWoW/ClassicThreatMeter/issues |
| 22:08.58 | EsreverWoW | I know there are some areas I can improve performance for sure, but I was a bit rushed to get it out the door and figured I could solve those after things die down. |
| 22:46.07 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> when things die way down |
| 22:46.14 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> here in about 3 weeks |
| 23:15.24 | *** join/#wowuidev pompy (~Mike@2601:87:4101:92f0:a8a9:f303:ca7f:193) |
| 23:40.37 | *** join/#wowuidev Nimhfree_ (~scott@206.81.137.52) |
| 23:46.09 | sylvanaar | all this addon hate on the classic forum |
| 23:46.17 | sylvanaar | I had to post my experience |
| 23:46.41 | sylvanaar | https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/ban-all-addons-its-the-only-way-to-save-classic/264973/248?u=sylvaann-proudmoore |
