| 01:04.57 | Mr_Rabies | petition to add bards to wow https://streamable.com/7y4vz |
| 01:28.07 | Ketho | DialogBoxFrame template was removed on ptr which might break some addons I think |
| 01:28.11 | Ketho | https://www.townlong-yak.com/framexml/ptr/SharedBasicControls.xml/diff |
| 01:32.13 | Mr_Rabies | is that the talking head frame? |
| 01:33.30 | Ketho | no but in broke something in Prat at least |
| 01:33.45 | Mr_Rabies | oh boy |
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| 03:09.13 | Mr_Rabies | i wish i knew which addon was trying to communicate with other people |
| 03:09.29 | Mr_Rabies | seeing 'X is not online" constantly is annoying |
| 03:26.03 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (Funkeh`@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
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| 09:45.30 | AcidWeb | TSquare: I have to say that that new trend to stop using frame names in new parts of ui is not very fun for addon developers. |
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| 10:14.14 | VIad | as long they kept the keys on the main object as breadcrumbs to find the underlying frames it kind of works but if the new ui stuff have like no names at all, we're back at nameplate frames I guess doing GetChildren and GetRegions. is 8.2 that bad? |
| 10:47.13 | nevcairiel | from what i've seen the main frames still have names typically |
| 10:47.25 | nevcairiel | just all the childs dont, but you can often get them by following table members |
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| 12:18.55 | Chipzz | I'ld say that traversing tables is the superior way of doing things anyway, no pollution of the global namespace |
| 12:20.36 | Chipzz | AcidWeb: completely disagree; using tables is much more legible and more OO looking than accessing a random global variable |
| 12:23.16 | Chipzz | also stuff like _G["Parent"..child.."SomeOtherString"] is fugly and makes me want to barf |
| 12:24.02 | Chipzz | it's beyond me why people would think such a style is desirable O.O |
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| 13:01.22 | AcidWeb | Well what I can say - that's your opinion. |
| 13:02.19 | AcidWeb | I rather have "polluted" global namespace than look over n+1 tables to find one sad button. |
| 13:03.41 | AcidWeb | I can agree that this method makes sense when we have a frame with dynamic number of children/rows. |
| 13:03.55 | AcidWeb | But every frame element without name? Meh. |
| 13:06.00 | nevcairiel | as long as frames can still be referenced without having to iterate over GetChildren or such, it really matters not |
| 13:08.54 | AcidWeb | I'm talking about scenario where GetChildren need to be used. |
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| 13:11.27 | nevcairiel | most elements are still refefenced through stuff like Frame.Parent.Element.Button, but some dynamically created elements are not, that part is a bit annoying |
| 13:15.40 | foxlit | when people say "polution of the global namespace", what do they actually mean? |
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| 13:18.21 | nevcairiel | make _G small again! |
| 13:18.41 | foxlit | but why? |
| 13:19.18 | nevcairiel | smaller hashes are probably faster |
| 13:19.19 | foxlit | is someone concerned about the amount of time their for k,v in pairs(_G) loop takes? |
| 13:19.21 | nevcairiel | not that anyone would notice |
| 13:20.32 | foxlit | retaining constant access time regardless of the number of elements is more or less the point of a hashtable to begin with; it shouldn't matter if you have 1 element or 1e10 elements in there. |
| 13:21.52 | nevcairiel | thats sort of true, but not entirely. size has a very minor impact, but it does |
| 13:22.38 | nevcairiel | all implementation dependent of course |
| 13:23.14 | foxlit | intuitively, I think you actually lose in terms of runtime performance the moment you do A.B instead of AB (where both A and AB are globals) |
| 13:23.43 | nevcairiel | this is true |
| 13:24.07 | foxlit | (and _G is *large* to begin with, so it's not like it fits in any sort of cache) |
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| 15:27.32 | TSquare | Good Morning |
| 15:33.16 | Funkeh` | TSquare: Who lobbied for this change? https://github.com/tomrus88/BlizzardInterfaceCode/commit/ea76fcd0c47ed91bc91086eb37ca289f677417a7#diff-460eb7339d3b381e5c18692af9ab7dbbR42 |
| 15:33.56 | Funkeh` | and don't tell me it was a result of the layoffs that you need to reduce work for GMs at the cost of the community |
| 15:34.36 | Funkeh` | As if it wasn't bad enough you change the report API every single patch since 8.0.1, now you just break it entirely |
| 15:35.14 | TSquare | We were getting a ton of false reports coming from addons |
| 15:35.51 | TSquare | So, No. Not due to layoffs. Or trying to be "lazy" in any way |
| 15:36.17 | Funkeh` | My addon has been around for nearly 12 years now and as far as I can see if still basically the only one with a active userbase |
| 15:36.29 | TSquare | Is this BadBoy? |
| 15:36.34 | Funkeh` | yes |
| 15:36.51 | Funkeh` | And GMs know when my addon is the cause because I put the name in the report note |
| 15:37.03 | TSquare | yea, I don't think anyone has any issue with your addon. But people were not using it properly |
| 15:37.18 | TSquare | yea, it was reports coming from BadBoy |
| 15:38.13 | TSquare | Sorry about that. It was not retaliation of any kind. |
| 15:38.32 | Funkeh` | I gues I'm not going to get any kind of statistics on this. But considering I had honeypots characters on every popular server in EU and US, and basically never get false positives, I look at this and raise an eyebrow |
| 15:39.04 | TSquare | How do you know you don't have false positives? |
| 15:39.18 | Funkeh` | I have debugging modes enabled |
| 15:39.33 | TSquare | But what criteria are you using? |
| 15:39.53 | Funkeh` | If an innocent is blocked |
| 15:40.33 | TSquare | How do you determine "innocent" Sorry not trying to be difficult, I generally interested |
| 15:41.04 | Funkeh` | There are numerous factors which I will happily divulge in private |
| 15:41.12 | TSquare | sure |
| 16:31.46 | znf | wow |
| 16:31.47 | znf | that change |
| 16:32.05 | znf | so basically, no more auto-reports for people spamming gold sells and other 3rd party services |
| 16:32.12 | znf | good job! spam galore |
| 16:33.31 | znf | as a user on a decently populated realm, I barely bother clicking the frame to report, and now you want us to manually report people for advertising scam services? |
| 16:47.12 | Funkeh` | The other effect will be to further encourage people leaving public channels, further destroying what's left of server communities |
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| 16:50.36 | Funkeh` | The majority of my guild left all public channels when they initially changed reporting to require a hardware event, think this would pretty much end it |
| 16:52.14 | foxlit | you, um, could just hide whichever messages you deem to be spam? |
| 16:52.52 | foxlit | (including any further messages from the senders who you would've reported) |
| 16:53.38 | Funkeh` | Ah yes, I should icnrease my unpaid workload |
| 17:08.07 | foxlit | you should do whatever you want to do. |
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| 17:27.33 | AcidWeb | -.- |
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| 17:34.33 | AcidWeb | I'm sure 8.2 will vastly improve anti-spam measures to balance this change /s |
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| 17:44.13 | AcidWeb | Well I'm sure of one thing - Whoever accepts this type of changes does not play this game. |
| 17:44.31 | AcidWeb | Or he/she is paid by spammers ð |
| 17:45.29 | Funkeh` | It is difficult not to be suspicous after they just broke 50% of the addon earlier this expansion - LFG filtering |
| 17:45.36 | Funkeh` | and now suddenly they come for the other 50% |
| 17:55.05 | AcidWeb | Well considering that entire 8.x is dumpster fire and first row ticket for "Blizzard crosses everything he represented" show. Maybe we should not be surprised that they want run everything in to ground even harder. |
| 17:55.21 | Funkeh` | https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/bgvjmb/this_shit_please_blizzard_fix/ don't worry this will be magically fixed too |
| 17:56.08 | Funkeh` | I fix in it BadBoy by toggling the cvar on and off because that's literally all you can do :D |
| 17:56.56 | Funkeh` | But since no one will report them now they will just go on for days |
| 18:03.40 | foxlit | or a smaller number of human reports would be sufficient to trigger the mute penalty/gm attention. |
| 18:06.40 | Funkeh` | The whole point of reporting is cleaning up the community and not requiring everyone install the addon, minimizing chat segregation. By removing reporting, these people are not chat silenced from reports. It means everyone who wants to avoid the chat then has to install the addon, segregating chat further. The end result is it harms new users the most, the users they'd want to keep, and further |
| 18:06.59 | Funkeh` | fractures any form of server community because the entire server looks like a spam shit hole to new users |
| 18:08.44 | nevcairiel | if automatic reporting is being abused in some manner resulting in more bad reports then proper ones, thats also no help at all |
| 18:09.38 | Funkeh` | there is no automatic reporting, you require hardware interaction |
| 18:10.05 | nevcairiel | well regardless it reports in plenty bad reports apparently |
| 18:10.06 | foxlit | did you bind "Report Player" to W again? |
| 18:10.11 | nevcairiel | results in* |
| 18:10.42 | Funkeh` | That's their word on the subject. |
| 18:11.24 | Funkeh` | No evidence, no reasoning why it would suddenly be so much worse, no discussion if BadBoy is the "main offender" |
| 18:16.57 | foxlit | that's more or less how *all* client UI changes work. |
| 18:18.03 | Funkeh` | I don't recall last time they broke something which didn't have actual evidence for us all to see. |
| 18:19.08 | foxlit | You don't remember the LFG changes? |
| 18:19.24 | Funkeh` | LFG changes had evidence |
| 18:19.34 | nevcairiel | this affects backend systems, they'll never divulge details on that, and you apparently dont even believe the reason you've been given, so how many fabricated details would change that? =p |
| 18:21.48 | foxlit | I'm not sure what you're calling "evidence" |
| 18:22.14 | foxlit | In any case, the procedure is virtually always to break things first, and maybe comment on the reasoning some weeks after the reddit outrage machine triggers. |
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| 18:23.13 | Funkeh` | evidence as in, we saw the addon abusing LFG on Curse and we saw the dev trying to workaround lighter measures which forced the heavy handed measures |
| 18:24.01 | foxlit | so nothing actually presented by blizzard. |
| 18:31.01 | foxlit | https://github.com/funkydude/BadBoy/issues/106 also exists |
| 18:32.16 | foxlit | Seemingly, someone got silenced and a GM had to undo the penalty and tell someone to tell you to fix your addon. |
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| 18:34.09 | Funkeh` | foxlit: except it wasn't the addon |
| 18:35.48 | foxlit | I don't think there's any reason for a GM to bring up the addon name if it isn't. |
| 18:36.20 | foxlit | The simplest explanation is probably that they didn't tell you the exact message, because they have no way of knowing which exact message triggered the automated reports. |
| 18:36.34 | Funkeh` | It was a macro so yes it was the exact message |
| 18:36.40 | Funkeh` | try reading the post you linked |
| 18:36.56 | foxlit | And nobody ever edits any macros that they use. |
| 18:37.26 | Funkeh` | So the user is a human that can do human things but the GM is not |
| 18:37.32 | foxlit | yes. |
| 18:37.42 | Funkeh` | Conversation over :) |
| 18:37.47 | foxlit | Because it's much harder to accidentially go "hey, by the way, complain to $thisExactAddon" |
| 18:39.49 | foxlit | (and if you didn't "Conversation over" that guy, you might not have had an issue now) |
| 18:40.36 | Funkeh` | Nothing prevents him from replying, stop making an argument where there isn't one |
| 18:46.02 | znf | I have 0 faith in the ability/skills/communications of "GMs" |
| 18:46.38 | znf | They were useful once, but now they're basically clueless, mindless drones, following a set script; deviating from that script results in a divide by 0 error |
| 19:09.28 | Mr_Rabies | welcome to any kinda customer service now |
| 19:11.28 | znf | Is there a way to get the current playing music sound/file? |
| 19:20.24 | Mr_Rabies | Funkeh`, i love how they made a broken system that can get people banned from reports with no investigation by a GM and you're getting punished for it |
| 19:25.51 | Funkeh` | I'm not really the one being punished, the "ecosystem" of the game will be. |
| 19:26.56 | Mr_Rabies | well yeah that's the end result |
| 19:27.16 | Mr_Rabies | i'd just hold off on any updates if at all and let the spam get so bad that they have to act on it themselves at this point |
| 19:27.25 | Mr_Rabies | no reason to save them money now |
| 19:33.25 | znf | well, if you keep up the spam hiding, Funkeh`, you're just either gonna get more users, or more people leaving the default channels |
| 19:33.44 | znf | to be honest, I've no idea why I still stay on the default channels, I can't say I've read them in months |
| 19:34.05 | znf | Trade is set on my 3rd chat tab, I never click on it |
| 19:34.08 | Mr_Rabies | i love the regular trade chat shenanigans, though my server's chat is almost dead |
| 19:34.41 | nevcairiel | î left those channels years ago, not because of spam, but just the pointless annoying chat and trolling |
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| 19:35.07 | znf | wait, isn't /2 active in the horde-city? |
| 19:35.31 | znf | oh, it's unchecked, lol |
| 19:35.33 | znf | wonder when did i do that |
| 19:35.57 | Mr_Rabies | wow did it for people at some point during 8.1 or something, i forget when |
| 19:36.06 | Mr_Rabies | it unchecked everything |
| 19:36.15 | znf | nah, for me it was just trade unchecked |
| 19:36.33 | znf | well, I don't miss this: https://i.imgur.com/W4LJePb.png |
| 19:36.56 | Mr_Rabies | wow ours gets like 1 message every 20 minutes or so now |
| 19:37.00 | Mr_Rabies | our realm is basically dead |
| 19:37.05 | znf | you could say that same about ours :D |
| 19:37.13 | znf | what you see is spam |
| 19:37.31 | Mr_Rabies | we don't even get spam |
| 19:37.41 | Mr_Rabies | well, we have one guy that spams every 5 minutes for months now |
| 19:37.48 | Mr_Rabies | now he's doing a 40% discount! |
| 19:42.36 | Mr_Rabies | i miss the heyday of trade chat |
| 19:42.54 | Mr_Rabies | when i could ask how much crit i needed as a holy paladin and set off a chat nuke for a good hour |
| 19:45.31 | Mr_Rabies | but now everyone is playing skyrim with chat so even if there's a lot of people it's mostly dead |
| 19:45.42 | Mr_Rabies | (or without chat, since a lot of people turn it off) |
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| 20:45.48 | foxlit | TSquare: I miss the ## Interface: line in FrameXML.toc. It was nice being able to tell what the appropriate value is without launching the game and running GetBuildInfo(). |
| 22:00.19 | Ketho | where is purl? is this channel still being logged? |
| 22:01.06 | Gnarfoz | purl is right here |
| 22:01.24 | Ketho | huh you're right |
| 22:09.42 | Ssateneth | Is it intended that general chat seems deleted in WOTLK world zones like Icecrown? |
| 22:24.19 | kd3 | there was a hotfix recently about them readding zone chat to a few old zones, guess icecrown got missed |
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