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| 14:55.53 | znf | The longer the raid has been opened, the longer it takes me to find an actually decent pug for it. |
| 14:56.35 | znf | First week it was all awesome. Now I can't manage to find pugs that can kill more than Opulence |
| 14:56.42 | znf | They struggle on Conclave |
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| 15:51.22 | znf | Meanwhile, why can't I trade a 400 ilvl staff (2 hander) to another person in the raid if I have 425+410 in my MH/OH slots? :- |
| 15:52.10 | nevcairiel | because your 2H slot doesnt have that ilvl yet, i ts obvious, you just like to complain |
| 15:54.40 | znf | There's another "slot" for 2H? |
| 15:54.57 | znf | I don't recall that being the case in Legion |
| 15:55.38 | nevcairiel | because weapon slots in legion had any meaning whatsoever, right =P |
| 15:55.55 | znf | right, forgot that for a minute |
| 15:56.28 | nevcairiel | it could possibly try to account for that special case |
| 15:56.30 | znf | I just remember swapping rings and trinkets between slots when I got upgrades |
| 15:56.34 | nevcairiel | but it considers them distinct item categories |
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| 16:54.14 | TSquare | Happy Wednesday |
| 17:07.30 | znf | In other news, I so wish Sockets weren't a random proc chance on gear anymore |
| 17:08.09 | znf | Both my Cloak (385) and Wrists (370) have sockets and even tough I have 410 in my bags, they're weaker downgrades :( |
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| 17:27.45 | Simca | the 1h vs 2h thing doesn't make a whole lot of sense to be fair. both 1h and 2h are in the same inventory slot; blizzard's system for ilvl is just coded to treat them differently i assume |
| 17:28.27 | Simca | so it's not super obvious why something is untradeable in those cases |
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| 17:35.07 | nevcairiel | you would really have to consider the OH as well, a 410 1H isnt doing you any favors if you have a 350 OH only |
| 17:35.17 | nevcairiel | over a 400 2H |
| 17:35.29 | nevcairiel | probably too much logic for them |
| 17:40.29 | ls- | tbf, many games in the past used to treat 2h weaps as 1h, even eso, a newer game, did so, but they finally fixed it last year in summerset xpack |
| 17:41.04 | ls- | it is time to fix it though >_> |
| 17:44.54 | znf | nevcairiel, yeah, but in my case I have a 410 OH and and a 425 MH |
| 17:45.00 | znf | and I can't trade a 400 2H :P |
| 17:45.44 | nevcairiel | we already established that it doesnt do that, that it could, but it also should consider the OH |
| 17:45.48 | nevcairiel | there is really nothing more to add |
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| 19:53.22 | TomCat | I'm wondering if anyone has tested this... are overlays against ToU if they do not control the game and are just there to provide information to the player... maybe even to go as far as be able to read a small part of the screen so that what it shows is in context, but nothing beyond that? |
| 19:54.36 | TomCat | for example, someone wants to be able to lookup a character's info that is available via the rest api / armory... so said overlay may be able to read the character's name from the WoW interface to then look it up and display |
| 19:54.52 | nevcairiel | purpose is not really a factor in such rules |
| 19:55.35 | TomCat | nothing that alters the game binary |
| 19:55.57 | TomCat | that's what I'm asking - have there been any examples of this that have either proven or disproven that it's against ToU? |
| 19:58.48 | nevcairiel | there is no answer, the ToU prohibits basically anything that directly interacts with the game unless specifically allowed, so unless you get someone official to review and OK it, its basically against the rules |
| 20:02.10 | TomCat | is there a good channel that you can recommend to attempt to get this kind of answer? |
| 20:02.36 | nevcairiel | I doubt they particularly care to review such things, but no |
| 20:04.54 | TomCat | ever seen a document that lists what is explicitely allowed or how a player would be able to confirm if some program author claimed their program was explicitely allowed? |
| 20:05.14 | TomCat | i.e. plenty of programs do screen capture - streamers all over do it |
| 20:08.23 | TomCat | you think blizzard would even care so long as it couldn't be used to bot or draw markers on the screen, etc? we're just talking basically very little more than a browser that can exist on the screen while they play |
| 20:10.25 | TomCat | I'm not going to try to hold you accountable or anything - just curious of your opinion since you've been around this side of things a lot longer than I have |
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| 20:12.32 | nevcairiel | The way I see it, reacting to context from the game is a slippery slope, and quite a step further from screen grabbing or recording, or even overlays like from Teamspeak or the like that show game-unrelated information |
| 20:13.15 | TomCat | fair |
| 20:15.16 | TomCat | I'm suspect that the only reason we cannot inspect a player until they are near us (i.e. can't inspect via group finder) is due to technical limitations moreso than it being something that blizzard doesn't want players to be able to do |
| 20:32.53 | TomCat | I was able to dig this up... https://web.archive.org/web/20150826145149/https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/exploitation-policy |
| 20:34.21 | nevcairiel | they consolidated all of those into the new EULA i think |
| 20:36.03 | TomCat | yeah - just to be clear in case this chat comes up in the future... I'm not endorsing or suggesting anything that would constitute cheating, botting, exploitation, hacking, etc... or anything that would violate what's on that list I linked you under the unapproved third party software section. |
| 20:36.03 | TomCat | that would help nobody |
| 20:37.11 | TomCat | I would really like to attempt something that may assist a wider range of players to be able to group with others that are closer to their play level |
| 20:38.02 | TomCat | and... who knows what else that can help w/o harm |
| 20:39.14 | TomCat | but it would take quite a time investment so I just want to make sure folks are well informed and nobody gets in trouble for something that's misunderstood |
| 20:39.34 | TomCat | I'll keep digging around - appreciate the input |
| 20:40.07 | TomCat | maybe I can find something that set precedence if nothing else |
| 20:40.51 | TomCat | if not - I suppose I can always have the player copy/paste but still give them the browser as an overlay |
| 20:41.42 | TomCat | I probably shouldn't even call it an overlay so much as it would just be an 'always on top' window |
| 21:13.00 | foxlit | nobody is going to say "yes, you can totally run this external program that interacts with the wow client in mysterious ways." |
| 21:13.37 | TomCat | yeah I get that. I'm going to seek just a simple "no such and such specific action is not bannable" or "yes it is bannable" |
| 21:14.07 | TomCat | I understand it's always going to be up to the player's discretion and understanding of the rules |
| 21:14.18 | TomCat | i.e. use at your own risk |
| 21:14.48 | foxlit | (and while nobody would probably care enough to ban you personally if the interaction does not detrimentally affect other players (which isn't actually obvious the "that guy's epeenwscore is 34!"), you might just get people banned through some general anti-cheating mechanism mistaking you for a bot.) |
| 21:15.17 | foxlit | s/obvious the/obvious given that the idea seems to be / |
| 21:15.57 | foxlit | and if/when that happens, support will happily point to the "no external software!" clause in the ToU and someone is going to be upset. |
| 21:17.49 | TomCat | yeah - hence the clarifications needed... if it's not cheating by Blizzard's own definition then any ban shouldn't stick |
| 21:18.18 | TomCat | I just don't know yet if they consider it a cheat |
| 21:18.55 | TomCat | probably not but if I can get some general answer - at least I can re-post it for players willing to try this to reference |
| 21:19.21 | TomCat | doubt it will get detected anyway since it's not going to transmit keystrokes or mouse behavior to the wow window |
| 21:20.12 | TomCat | I would be very careful not to be lazy about it and use a full coverage overlay |
| 21:20.40 | TomCat | like I was saying earlier - more accurate would be to call it an always on top window |
| 21:21.25 | TomCat | not trying to convince you or anything - just trying to cover all bases and get the most feedback I can |
| 21:21.29 | foxlit | it's the "maybe even to go as far as be able to read a small part of the screen" that's problematic. |
| 21:22.12 | TomCat | yep that's what I'm working on clarification for |
| 21:22.22 | foxlit | because basically, we're talking about an (a) unauthorized (b) third-party program which (c) collects information from Blizzard games. |
| 21:22.25 | TomCat | who knows - so long as it's one-way they might not care |
| 21:22.48 | foxlit | The full list of authorized programs is: (crickets?). |
| 21:23.14 | TomCat | the collects information from blizzard games part - where do you see it worded like that? |
| 21:23.43 | foxlit | https://www.blizzard.com/en-gb/legal/cd5930c0-2784-420c-a23d-1e0d6ff8599b/anti-cheating-agreement |
| 21:24.54 | TomCat | thanks - couldn't find that on the US site earlier - I guess this replaces the older exploitation policy |
| 21:27.33 | TomCat | still grey... they're defining what an unauthorized third party program is, not necessarily stating that all unauthorized third party programs are a violation... they are clear on that if the third party program is used for hacking, cheating, botting, and/or changing or facilitating gameplay that it |
| 21:27.33 | TomCat | is a violation |
| 21:27.58 | TomCat | else wowhead's data uploader would be in violation |
| 21:28.31 | TomCat | I submitted a ticket - let's see if someone is willing to pull a clarification together I guess |
| 21:29.32 | TomCat | I don't like grey |
| 21:29.53 | TomCat | I'll work with what I can |
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| 21:50.34 | foxlit | the funny thing about wowhead (or similar datamining efforts) is that everything they do is expressly against one policy or another. |
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| 21:51.16 | nevcairiel | offline datamining is not something they can ever fight |
| 21:53.54 | foxlit | it would be a terrible idea, but I think you can just refuse to license trademarks/copyrighted data. |
| 21:55.29 | nevcairiel | of course they could exclude anyone that does it from their official communications, and big fansites would then stop doing it, but they would also lose a lot of content and shady datamining sites would pop up, and it would be worse for everyone |
| 21:59.42 | foxlit | Just sue anyone with a recognizable name off the internet. |
| 21:59.54 | nevcairiel | poor Alram and Simca |
| 22:00.34 | TSquare | This won't make it less grey, but you can send questions to WoWUI@blizzard.com. My personal position (NOT a statement as Blizzard), is that screen testing can be seen as a main way to bot, regardless of what you actually are doing. |
| 22:02.18 | TomCat | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:03.27 | Alram | nevcairiel: I've gotten approval for all my tools in the past from both legal and the CM team so I'm good for now :D |
| 22:04.18 | nevcairiel | :) |
| 22:04.38 | Alram | As long as you stay away from emulation and reading/modifying things from memory you're a-ok |
| 22:05.03 | Simca | from what i've seen in the past, screen overlays are fine as long as you aren't tapping into memory to get additional game information |
| 22:05.24 | Simca | as long as you're just displaying voice chat icons or data you have from the internet or something it -should- be fine |
| 22:05.28 | nevcairiel | how about pixel binary |
| 22:05.48 | nevcairiel | reading that to get context-sensitive i nformation from the interwebs |
| 22:06.12 | Alram | that would be a grey area for sure! |
| 22:06.16 | Simca | grey area, i'm sure. they do that for hearthstone and it's been ruled okay |
| 22:06.27 | Simca | but that's probably just because they think the specific use is okay |
| 22:06.38 | nevcairiel | hearthstone is also quite a different game |
| 22:06.43 | Simca | (looking up meta values for arena cards presented) |
| 22:07.32 | Simca | i would guess that it's probably not okay |
| 22:07.35 | Simca | for WoW |
| 22:12.10 | TomCat | so - maybe will have to have the user copy/paste the text over but can at least keep the window smaller and more convenient than alt tabbing |
| 22:15.10 | TomCat | or mobile app that they point and shoot with their camera? o_O |
| 22:17.13 | znf | "pixel fishing bots" have been banned in the past |
| 22:17.38 | znf | but those also send keystrokes to the game :P |
| 22:18.05 | nevcairiel | Like I said earlier, its a slippery slope there. One more command, and you are from reading to botting |
| 22:19.38 | TomCat | that is a fairly thick line to have to cross |
| 22:20.13 | znf | there were some "radar" tools back in the days |
| 22:20.21 | nevcairiel | But reading is the hard part, sending keyboard/mouse input to another process is trivial, so one could see how that might go bad quickly =p |
| 22:20.25 | znf | that all they did were to read the memory of the game and present an overlay with stuff |
| 22:20.40 | znf | think was was simply called Radar |
| 22:20.55 | znf | I remember people were using it back in WoTLK I think, to find those Ice Shards, or something? |
| 22:21.06 | znf | For reputation with the iron dwarfish faction |
| 22:21.13 | nevcairiel | never heard of it |
| 22:21.33 | znf | the faction or the tool? :P |
| 22:21.39 | nevcairiel | the tool |
| 22:21.40 | TomCat | I'm a long way off from wanting to do anything that sophisticated - but I hear ya |
| 22:21.45 | nevcairiel | i know the faction |
| 22:22.05 | nevcairiel | sons of hodir or so |
| 22:22.10 | znf | yeah, that one, I think |
| 22:22.23 | znf | heh, remember back then when in-place model substitutions were allowed by the client? |
| 22:22.26 | TomCat | if folks weren't allowed to use extended ascii characters in their names the player wouldn't even need to copy/paste - they could just type it out |
| 22:22.43 | znf | and people replaced the model of those shards with some huge purple spike sort of thing? |
| 22:22.56 | nevcairiel | typing out is hard enough with all those weirdly spelled names without special ascii chars in them :D |
| 22:23.49 | znf | tab-completion is awesome |
| 22:24.07 | znf | also, I love it when people with those names go all "just do Alt+12311231" |
| 22:24.21 | znf | yeah man, I'll do that IF I happen to have the same damn keyboard layout as you |
| 22:25.16 | nevcairiel | I dont think ALT codes are layout dependent |
| 22:25.46 | nevcairiel | those are unicode numbers |
| 22:26.01 | znf | what's Alt+0222 for you? :) |
| 22:26.10 | TomCat | :Ã |
| 22:26.13 | nevcairiel | tongue =p |
| 22:26.18 | znf | It's Ţ for me |
| 22:26.45 | nevcairiel | are you sure you are typing it right |
| 22:26.47 | nevcairiel | http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/00DE/index.htm |
| 22:26.49 | znf | but if I swap to ENG, I get à |
| 22:26.50 | nevcairiel | because its unicode 222 |
| 22:26.58 | TomCat | â |
| 22:27.44 | nevcairiel | whatever your romanian layout is doing, its breaking unicode conventions :P |
| 22:27.59 | foxlit | you're just typing the wrong sequence |
| 22:27.59 | znf | Blame Microsoft |
| 22:28.09 | foxlit | it's alt+00DE if you wanted unicode. |
| 22:28.38 | foxlit | where the plus is an actual key on the numeric keypad |
| 22:28.42 | nevcairiel | well yeah you can inpuit the hex sequence that way |
| 22:29.13 | znf | I can't? |
| 22:29.15 | nevcairiel | but any sane layout also accepts 0 + unicode number |
| 22:29.17 | znf | it just activates the menu |
| 22:29.17 | TomCat | doesn't work that way for me for some reason |
| 22:29.59 | nevcairiel | that hex method may need to b e activated in the registry on some systems |
| 22:30.00 | znf | what's your layout, nevcairiel? |
| 22:30.15 | nevcairiel | "Under HKEY_Current_User/Control Panel/Input Method, set EnableHexNumpad to "1". If you have to add it, set the type to be REG_SZ." |
| 22:30.17 | TomCat | requires a registry hack apparently to do alt+hex |
| 22:30.23 | TomCat | ^ |
| 22:30.51 | nevcairiel | the numpad-only variant is convenient because its all in the same space |
| 22:30.58 | nevcairiel | the hex variant requires letters from the main keyboard |
| 22:31.00 | nevcairiel | so i dont like it |
| 22:31.07 | nevcairiel | but the normal variant works for me, so shrug |
| 22:31.15 | TomCat | my favorite is ¿ |
| 22:31.25 | znf | aren't you on english layout? |
| 22:31.32 | nevcairiel | german most of the time |
| 22:31.33 | znf | ENG/US whatever |
| 22:31.45 | nevcairiel | but all latin-1 based layouts should support the "0" method |
| 22:32.08 | znf | technically it does :D |
| 22:32.15 | znf | it just produces different results for me |
| 22:33.18 | nevcairiel | romanian layout is not latin-1 |
| 22:34.10 | znf | wikipedia has it under latin-script keyboard layouts |
| 22:34.12 | znf | no idea what that means |
| 22:35.17 | nevcairiel | to be precise, its not about the keyboard itself, but the character encoding |
| 22:35.17 | TomCat | I don't think it's the keyboard layout so much as the character encoding that is causing the difference |
| 22:35.25 | TomCat | lol ^ |
| 22:35.35 | foxlit | it really depends on which codepage (from back in the days where there was no unicode and 128-255 was used for different things depending on language) your extra letters got shuffled into. |
| 22:35.41 | nevcairiel | and romanian is not covered by latin1 (ie. ISO/IEC 8859-1) |
| 22:36.37 | nevcairiel | you have too many weird letters :) |
| 22:36.42 | TomCat | nev stop answering with more precise answers faster than me =) |
| 22:37.02 | znf | ...we have 4 |
| 22:37.11 | znf | 8 if you count lower/upper case |
| 22:37.18 | nevcairiel | we do |
| 22:37.29 | znf | no, wait, my bad, 5 |
| 22:37.38 | TomCat | counting Ţ ? |
| 22:38.28 | znf | that is not actually romanian |
| 22:38.39 | znf | È is the correct version |
| 22:38.43 | nevcairiel | eastern-european scripts are in latin2, or ISO/IEC 8859-2, but apparently romanian is not even fully covered by that (although partially) |
| 22:39.24 | nevcairiel | its nice of wikipedia to tell me that its not fully covered, but not actually tell me what your code page is called |
| 22:40.33 | znf | heh |
| 22:40.44 | nevcairiel | Latin-10 apparently (ISO/IEC 8859-16), but not sure if thats actually in use or was just defined to complete the set |
| 22:41.42 | znf | TSquare, not your area - but any ideas why the wowvoiceproxy just "hangs" sometimes? |
| 22:41.51 | znf | killing it makes the voice chat suddenly work |
| 22:42.24 | AcidWeb | Better question - why losing connection with voice server freeze entire client. |
| 22:43.06 | TomCat | anyone noticed the download buttons on curseforge for analytics lately? |
| 22:43.20 | znf | they sent a notice last week, I think |
| 22:43.22 | nevcairiel | I got a mail informing me about their presence |
| 22:43.28 | znf | about having some new analytics/stats whatever |
| 22:43.53 | TomCat | now if only we can get the new installs vs. update installs stats |
| 22:44.51 | znf | not sure what it's useful for, but whatever :P |
| 22:45.06 | nevcairiel | i'm sure some people run their addons like a business |
| 22:45.25 | nevcairiel | i just make stuff that lasts for a long time and make points no matter what |
| 22:45.56 | znf | I just make stuff in less than 100 lines when something in the $currentExpansion annoys me |
| 22:45.58 | TomCat | I don't care so much about the points as much as I would like to know what kinds of updates attract new users |
| 22:46.38 | TomCat | and retention |
| 22:47.05 | znf | guess TomCat runs his addons like a business |
| 22:47.16 | nevcairiel | sounds like |
| 22:47.37 | TomCat | trying to anyway |
| 22:48.13 | TomCat | shit happens... have to find a way to use my technical skills to work from home on my own schedule |
| 22:48.32 | TomCat | for my health's sake |
| 22:48.44 | nevcairiel | I do that, but then I found a company that wants to pay me for that |
| 22:49.00 | nevcairiel | not that "on my own schedule" actually means working less, but anyway! |
| 22:49.11 | TomCat | yeah - that |
| 22:49.13 | znf | to be fair, it usually means work more |
| 22:49.21 | nevcairiel | i j ust work weirdest hours |
| 22:49.32 | nevcairiel | i'm usually most productive around midnight |
| 22:49.52 | nevcairiel | but I nap afternoons! |
| 22:49.52 | znf | nobody to annoy you, no distractions |
| 22:50.28 | TomCat | employers aren't too understanding of having days where I just can't focus either |
| 22:51.06 | nevcairiel | everyone has that to a degree |
| 22:51.35 | nevcairiel | most just have to sit in their office browsing facebook all day to get through it |
| 22:51.53 | znf | man, I have a tank in my Mekka pug - 2.3k r.io, mostly +20's done |
| 22:53.47 | TomCat | from what little my addons actually do, I'm getting a lot of passionate and positive feedback from my users... so I decided to keep pushing forward and see if I can get contributors to support this |
| 22:53.56 | TomCat | so on to bigger addons |
| 22:54.09 | TSquare | If you have a way to reproduce the wowproxy hang, please let me know. We have been unable to reproduce it internally, and don't see what is causing it. |
| 22:55.12 | TomCat | @TSquare - I've seen extra wowproxy instances spawn especially when I am in and out of the wow client too frequently to update addon files... after awhile I will get that same hang. that might give some clue |
| 22:55.50 | TomCat | esp. if I accidentally launch a second time and boot an instance off |
| 22:57.47 | TomCat | force-quits with alt-f4 |
| 22:57.48 | TomCat | etc. |
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| 22:59.53 | znf | yeah, I can't reproduce it either |
| 22:59.58 | znf | never happened to me |
| 23:00.12 | nevcairiel | i never use ingame voice |
| 23:00.24 | nevcairiel | but ne ver had problems with it dying without me using it =p |
| 23:00.53 | TomCat | yeah I don't actually use it either - just get a message once in awhile that it disconnected |
| 23:01.44 | TomCat | must be one of those kardashians breaking the Internet again |
| 23:08.40 | znf | I use it almost every time I pug my weekly hc run |
| 23:08.49 | znf | 2 out of 3 groups are using in-game |
| 23:09.05 | znf | and Mekka requires voice-chat, so... |
| 23:09.15 | nevcairiel | we used to use it for some casual m+ runs like half a year ago |
| 23:09.30 | znf | obviously, each time I pug it, it takes minutes for people to fix it |
| 23:09.33 | nevcairiel | but since our guild revived, we're just on teamspeak again |
| 23:09.44 | znf | I'm wondering if people just have poor internet connections |
| 23:10.20 | znf | you never know from which part of the world is someone playing :P |
| 23:11.57 | znf | TomCat, what you call "feedback" most people call "annoying users wanting me to code crap for them" |
| 23:11.58 | znf | :P |
| 23:14.01 | kd3 | wait, what? people actually still use TS? |
| 23:14.32 | nevcairiel | i actually have 3 independent TS servers for different games that i frequently use =p |
| 23:14.44 | nevcairiel | screw that newfangled shit |
| 23:15.04 | AcidWeb | TS still provide nice audio quality and have extensive permission system |
| 23:15.23 | nevcairiel | everything has the same audio quality these days, since everyone uses the same codec |
| 23:15.40 | nevcairiel | including blizzard voice |
| 23:16.30 | Gnarfoz | also, hosting your own > some cloud thing that goes down for everyone at the same time :D |
| 23:55.19 | *** join/#wowuidev Caleb| (~Caleb|@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/EnsidiaFails/Caleb) |