| 01:52.14 | *** join/#wowuidev purl (ibot@208.53.50.136) |
| 01:52.14 | *** topic/#wowuidev is BfA Author Keys! http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56267 || 7.3.x ToC: 70300 || http://pastebin.com || Battletags: http://goo.gl/2bm7n || This channel is logged, via purl |
| 01:52.26 | Simca_ | lots of the pieces have no model |
| 01:52.47 | Simca_ | almost all of the belts are pasted on to the pants texture and the belt items are textureless |
| 01:52.51 | VIad | havent noticed that on my leather and plate wearers (that I play most of) |
| 01:52.52 | Mr_Rabies | good time to see what addons are out there to help with grouping for these quests |
| 01:53.05 | Simca_ | several blank bracers too |
| 01:53.41 | Mr_Rabies | that reminds me, they need to add other ways to get BoE pieces for old tier, especially ones that are totally unobtainable from lfr, etc |
| 01:53.57 | VIad | Semlar: https://i.imgur.com/l6XKODT.png |
| 01:53.58 | Mr_Rabies | lots of bracers, which are next to invisible, blocking my completion :( |
| 01:56.01 | VIad | I can't explain this :P |
| 01:56.10 | VIad | https://i.imgur.com/EUJGJFE.png |
| 01:56.20 | VIad | 2 offliners from realms not connected to mine |
| 01:56.33 | VIad | did /who to check stormwind and dalaran no one is from those realms on Ravencrest |
| 01:58.16 | Ammako | armory says those characters dont even exist |
| 01:59.33 | VIad | https://raider.io/characters/eu/darksorrow/Hackpack exists on raiderio |
| 01:59.42 | VIad | but doesnt exist anymore |
| 02:00.04 | Mr_Rabies | wonder if they xferred or something |
| 02:00.14 | Mr_Rabies | and the guild generation script bugged out |
| 02:00.29 | Ammako | there is a lv 110 Libitina on Aerie Peak |
| 02:00.35 | Ammako | closest I can find |
| 02:00.48 | VIad | https://www.wowprogress.com/character/eu/doomhammer/Libitina |
| 02:01.00 | VIad | wowprog profile on doomhammer, matches what I see but I dont know that person |
| 02:01.27 | VIad | something funky is going on :D |
| 02:01.49 | Ammako | darksorrow and doomhammer arent connected either |
| 02:02.10 | VIad | I know |
| 02:02.39 | VIad | ravencrest has backend offloading servers but officially it's still 1 realm no connections (closest to connected realms I can get) |
| 02:03.51 | Mr_Rabies | man i wish i could find the guy squatting on my character name on the connected realm |
| 02:04.10 | Mr_Rabies | i want to claim it so bad to avoid impersonation problems |
| 02:04.40 | Ammako | rip |
| 02:05.07 | VIad | you can tell a GM that the name is very offensive in your tribal tongue |
| 02:05.15 | VIad | and take it when he gets force renamed |
| 02:08.36 | Thunder_Child | Wouldn't they also blacklist it after the rename? |
| 02:09.09 | VIad | said it jokingly. dont actually have experience with that :P |
| 02:09.59 | VIad | man I hope they combine the battle.net community and wow community in one. just silly to join wow com with each individual character, bnet one is smoother to use but lacks the calendar feature |
| 02:14.15 | VIad | like, the bnet should adapt like the friend list to appear the best it can if you play the same game, including the game specific calendar feature and such |
| 02:14.32 | VIad | would just make it tons easier to have a comunity of people with less invite spam to get everyone in :p |
| 02:14.46 | Simca_ | praying real hard for a mythic guldan fix tonight |
| 02:14.57 | VIad | ah man gl Simca_ |
| 02:15.08 | VIad | hope you get the mount |
| 02:15.37 | Simca_ | ah nah i'm not gonna. we only had enough time to get 75% of our raid the mount, I volunteered to be in the 25% who didn't get it |
| 02:16.06 | VIad | don't you run it with alts too? |
| 02:16.20 | VIad | 2 runs makes it twice as quick so we did kind of do that to speed it along |
| 02:16.42 | Simca_ | it's doable, but we don't have 20 players |
| 02:16.51 | Simca_ | and it's really quite hard with siphon soul broken atm |
| 02:17.04 | Simca_ | you need to 5 heal it using antorus gear to survive |
| 02:17.16 | VIad | ugh that sucks |
| 02:17.40 | Simca_ | we would have easily got the kill with alts last week if the boss wasn't broken |
| 02:18.00 | Simca_ | we got close even with it, but only like 1 in 5 attempts were getting past p2 with the healing req that high |
| 02:20.39 | VIad | blizz should use open AI and make bots run each instance in the game and see if it's doable or not :P |
| 02:21.01 | VIad | ideal way to automate testing without manually going through most of the stuff, just flag oddities and doublecheck instead |
| 02:23.18 | Simca_ | honestly they should have been able to test this with some scripting. run a script on both 7.3.5 and 8.0.1 servers that spawns every mob in the game and makes them use each ability assigned to them, record the damage it does, compare values afterwards for discrepancies outside the expected % modification factor |
| 02:23.34 | VIad | yeah :) |
| 02:23.45 | VIad | would solve a lot of the lvling issues and mobs hitting like trucks and such |
| 02:23.45 | Simca_ | it wouldn't catch everything, things like auras or environmental hazards wouldn't work right or damage from boss scripts |
| 02:23.52 | Simca_ | but it would help a lot |
| 02:24.25 | VIad | HFC mythic tyrant debuff ticks 15% of max hp every tick and is a 100k absorb shield applied to like 5 people or something at once every 10 seconds |
| 02:24.35 | VIad | feels a bit borked but dunno how it was back in the day :P |
| 02:25.02 | Simca_ | hostile absorbs seem broken across the board really |
| 02:25.09 | Simca_ | that's what is wrong with m guldan too |
| 02:25.28 | VIad | was what I was thinking. maybe should check absorb type spells on mobs and go through those |
| 02:27.24 | VIad | feels like this will repeat again in 2 expansions time so worth the work I guess :P |
| 02:27.58 | VIad | make the framework let openai do the hard part and see if it can do all the quest mobs during leveling :D |
| 02:28.34 | VIad | I leveled an alt from 47 to 57 with a friend over 3 days |
| 02:28.43 | Ammako | cata 25H bosses have like 12m+ health |
| 02:28.51 | VIad | with heirlooms, so imagine 47 to 52 over 3 days no heirlooms xD |
| 02:29.04 | Ammako | that's like 50% more health than many raid bosses at 110 |
| 02:29.10 | VIad | leveling vanilla is slower than leveling in bfa :P |
| 02:29.12 | Ammako | how are actual lv 85s meant to handle that lol |
| 02:29.20 | VIad | 20x level 85s |
| 02:29.55 | Ammako | 25h cata vs 25man flex in legion tho |
| 02:29.56 | VIad | and 20 min fight |
| 02:30.06 | VIad | obv not tested by hand :d |
| 02:30.09 | Ammako | it was in legion lfr but still |
| 02:31.08 | Simca_ | on beta level 85s did more damage than 110s |
| 02:31.09 | Simca_ | players |
| 02:31.23 | Ammako | levelup is leveldown now |
| 02:31.28 | VIad | still I find level 60 mobs with more health than level 110 mobs |
| 02:31.35 | Simca_ | feels like they fixed that issue but only for players |
| 02:31.55 | VIad | dunno why this squish was so much harder to do, last squish felt smoother |
| 02:32.19 | Ammako | as long as content is still doable at-level it's probably not a big deal. not that very many people would be running old raids at level, but there are people who do |
| 02:32.40 | Simca_ | last time they only changed 60+, basically just the expansion-based ilvl modifiers |
| 02:32.49 | Simca_ | this time they changed the base |
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| 04:13.42 | [TOM_RUS] | Ahahaha. Those devs are so clueless... 60-80 takes TWICE long than other brackets, yet they only reduce it by 14%... Blizzard you just lost all credibility... |
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| 04:18.40 | Simca_ | no m guldan fix, sadness |
| 04:33.24 | [TOM_RUS] | what's wrong with it |
| 04:33.35 | [TOM_RUS] | we did him last week and haven't noticed anything |
| 04:33.53 | [TOM_RUS] | went like before prepatch |
| 04:36.24 | Simca_ | siphon soul absorb is 15x normal strength |
| 04:37.09 | Simca_ | with 20 players and mythic antorus gear you might not notice |
| 04:37.28 | Simca_ | but we're running 15-16 players and heroic antorus gear and it's very, very noticeable |
| 04:41.36 | Simca_ | if you can end the phase before he does second well siphon, you probably won't notice. first well isn't bad |
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| 08:26.36 | Gragagrogog | heh, it's nice to see some 6 year old bugs are still not fixed |
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| 11:17.38 | VIad | Semlar: I did notice you had text scale up in smaller frames but with some fonts could be smart to have a way to specify how much larger smaller frames fonts should maybe be https://i.imgur.com/6yxaFFf.png |
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| 14:03.53 | Simca_ | Gragagrogog: generally if the bug escapes the expansion it was created in without being fixed, it never will be. so it's not too surprising to find some of those in old dungeons and raids. |
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| 14:16.14 | Gragagrogog | aye... i havent played wow for 2+ years, going back and recognising old bugs feels like home |
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| 14:21.14 | Thunder_Child | Just what the designers intended. |
| 15:11.32 | Constie | It's remarkable how many people ask what "that extra health bar" (the personal resource display) is and how to disable it. Maybe the option is in the wrong place. |
| 15:15.41 | Funkeh` | TheDanW: why does setting an OnMouseUp script toggle on MouseEnabled/MouseClickEnabled? Can't say I'm a fan of that kind of automation. I'd rather setting scripts does nothing and the author should be setting the mouse enabled state. It would be like setting an OnUpdate script forcing a frame to show. |
| 15:30.26 | VIad | something fatal is going on with guilds and player portrayal in the chat :P |
| 15:30.35 | VIad | https://i.imgur.com/yMGrD51.png |
| 15:30.49 | VIad | two of the people are always offline and show their pre-realm transfer names in the roster |
| 15:31.02 | VIad | but they are online on their new characters on my realm (not connected realms mind you) |
| 15:31.19 | VIad | but at some point the game started to refer to them using their pre-transfer name and realm |
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| 15:33.41 | VIad | cross realm guilds enabled for bfa perhaps? |
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| 15:46.55 | Funkeh` | sylvanas trailer is live |
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| 16:41.46 | TheDanW | Funkeh`: we aren't either, but its worked like that for 14+ years, it would break a bunch of the default UI and addons, even the poor merchant frame would be affected ;p |
| 16:42.14 | Funkeh` | isn't that what expansions are for? |
| 16:42.23 | TheDanW | maybe we'll rip that bandaid off at some point |
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| 16:50.28 | Simca_ | TheDanW: is there any reasonable way to go between AreaTableID and UIMapID using db2 files alone? I've looked at UIMapAssignment, and it sort of works but huge sections of the AreaID column are 0 instead of being properly filled out. Matching AreaTable's ContinentID column against UIMapAssignment's MapID column helps match up more Areas to UIMaps, but it's still incomplete. For example, I can't see how you could map AreaID 1583 to UIMap |
| 16:50.28 | Simca_ | 33 (both Blackrock Spire). |
| 16:56.30 | TheDanW | Simca_: sorry, can't help with raw data |
| 16:57.10 | Simca_ | well i assume there's no way to do it via the api either |
| 16:57.49 | Simca_ | but no worries |
| 17:14.49 | Funkeh` | Simca_ likes it raw |
| 17:15.10 | Funkeh` | get all the nutrients |
| 17:15.32 | Simca_ | yeaaaaahhh, it's way easier for me to understand connections by looking at the raw data than looking at the api. i usually just figure out what data i want first, then how to get it using the api second. |
| 17:16.21 | Simca_ | and if i can't, well that's why everyone has 16GB of RAM these days, so i can load copies of the data ripped out of the tables in my addons |
| 17:17.40 | Simca_ | like getting a mob's % value for mythic+ has to be taken from Criteria/CriteriaTree; there is no API to provide the value |
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| 17:42.26 | Simca_ | i actually wonder if this isn't a blizzard error caused by the query they use to serialize the table or whatever they used to make it originally. all of the ones where both MapID and AreaID is 0 have a parent with MapID 0, which they might have accidentally assumed is invalid. it usually is with the exception of maps. |
| 17:43.39 | Simca_ | because every single case i've come across is on eastern kingdoms, mapid 0. ulduman, blackrock spire, blackrock caverns, and blackrock depths mainly |
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| 18:27.22 | VIad | nevcairiel: any recommendations for DebugTools improvements for /etrace? |
| 18:27.47 | VIad | it's great for small stuff, but with CLEU no longer having args and it not showing those, kind of a bummer. or no good ways to filter on event type and such. |
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| 18:46.56 | VIad | for the time being I added a hack and hooked the event handler and if it's CLEU use CombatLogGetCurrentEventInfo() and add the returns into the .args table for those event tables |
| 19:20.05 | Gnarfoz | [03:16:23] <Mr_Rabies> i hate that illusion tooltips still don't tell you if you know them <-- https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/tomeofillusionscheck |
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| 19:21.55 | Ammako | Something's not quite right... |
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| 20:20.32 | Funkeh` | wonder who was the genious that came up with the destiny 2 expansion release date |
| 20:21.07 | Funkeh` | that should be a good DoA |
| 20:25.37 | nebula | what else is happening around it? |
| 20:26.56 | Gnarfoz | nebula: Uldir opens |
| 20:27.16 | Ammako | lel |
| 20:27.20 | Gnarfoz | (considering Destiny is not really a competitor to WoW... I don't see the big issue) |
| 20:27.38 | nebula | was my thought |
| 20:28.41 | Gnarfoz | they'll miss out on the incidental WoW player who might take a peek because "it's in my Bnet app, let's see!", but that's probably about it |
| 20:47.04 | nevcairiel | Destiny is once again dead anyway isn't it |
| 20:48.38 | Funkeh` | well yeah it wasn't really developed very well and all the fixes they are doing are behind the expansion pay wall |
| 20:50.56 | zenzelezz | is Steam search working for anyone else at the moment? I just get "No results were returned" for everything |
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| 21:51.02 | AcidWeb | TheDanW: You maybe are online now? |
| 21:53.18 | Simca_ | I hope the UI team is working towards a solution to what they've done to the LFG tool in 8.0 |
| 21:53.51 | AcidWeb | OK. Open question then. Where to submit exploit level ui bugs? |
| 21:54.13 | Funkeh` | just PM him |
| 21:54.33 | AcidWeb | Can't. Discord bridge ð |
| 21:54.42 | Torhal | Stop being bad? |
| 21:54.43 | Torhal | >.> |
| 21:54.48 | Funkeh` | what the f is wrong with you |
| 21:55.09 | Simca_ | exploits have a special email address iirc, also make a forum thread and edit out the OP |
| 21:55.16 | Simca_ | in bug reports |
| 21:56.15 | AcidWeb | Torhal, Funkeh`: This is last IRC channel I use. It is not worth starting up real client. |
| 21:56.50 | Torhal | Bleargh. |
| 21:56.51 | Simca_ | as for lfg tool, half of the groups are now raw questIDs, making the original problem of 'addon groups dominate lfg tool and have nonsense in descriptions' about 10 times worse. for casual users it's now horrible. |
| 21:57.09 | nevcairiel | clearly the answer is to categorically ban those addons |
| 21:57.23 | nevcairiel | since that was the goal anyway |
| 21:57.39 | AcidWeb | ^ |
| 21:57.49 | foxlit | clearly the answer is to stop giving out quest credits in cross-realm groups between non-long-time-friends. |
| 21:59.28 | Simca_ | or maybe to not make api functions consider specifically named editbox input in place of function arguments so that this is even possible |
| 22:00.09 | nevcairiel | as far as i understnad it, the addons just ask you to type in the quest id into the editbox now, slightly annoying but still fast enough to do |
| 22:00.34 | Funkeh` | why can't it auto type the quest id? |
| 22:00.42 | Simca_ | editbox is protected |
| 22:01.12 | nevcairiel | but i dont get the attitude of those addon devs, they know that blizzard didnt like the e ntire concept of their addons anymore, and instead of just accepting that, they make it worse, asking for an even stricter response, which they must know is coming |
| 22:01.36 | Ammako | Gotta expect people to always take everything they can |
| 22:02.11 | Simca_ | sure, but this was also entirely predictable from blizzard's angle. when you get a nasty hack that's exploitable to stop people from doing something while retaining your own ability to do the thing, people are going to exploit it |
| 22:02.21 | Simca_ | when you create* |
| 22:02.32 | AcidWeb | Well tell that to people like cqwrteur. He states that he is not bound by EULA and can do whatever he can. |
| 22:02.36 | nevcairiel | as long as users can create groups, this approach really cannot be prevented |
| 22:02.44 | nevcairiel | since it literally asks you to type in a number |
| 22:03.13 | AcidWeb | And he is author of one of lfg tools. |
| 22:03.22 | nevcairiel | so an ass-hat, basically? :p |
| 22:03.32 | Simca_ | then they need to either dust off their banned addons db2 and start hotfixing in addon bans by md5 or they need to revert their 8.0 lfg api changes |
| 22:03.45 | foxlit | you can't ban addons by md5 anyway |
| 22:03.45 | AcidWeb | nevcairiel: That happens in internet ð |
| 22:04.02 | Simca_ | i mean, i think there is an md5 field in that db2 |
| 22:04.03 | nevcairiel | they should just make it clear that its against the addon rules |
| 22:04.08 | nevcairiel | then sites like curse wont host it anymore |
| 22:04.18 | Simca_ | that would be good enough probably |
| 22:04.26 | Simca_ | mass adoption is what is keeping it alive |
| 22:04.45 | nevcairiel | they could also ban it by name i guess |
| 22:04.53 | nevcairiel | just to get rid of the current install base |
| 22:05.00 | foxlit | it doesn't matter; it'll just be "rename this folder to whatever" |
| 22:05.14 | Simca_ | that's getting too complicated though, foxlit |
| 22:05.19 | Simca_ | it's mass adoption allowing this to be a thing |
| 22:05.20 | nevcairiel | sure, but the majority is not going to do that if at the same time the project vanishes from curse |
| 22:06.09 | Simca_ | ah they removed the md5 fields a while back, that's right. it's just name and version for bans |
| 22:06.46 | Stanzilla | "exploit level ui bugs?" what even is that? |
| 22:07.13 | Simca_ | ask foxlit, he's found a crazy amount of them over time |
| 22:07.13 | Funkeh` | take 1 guess |
| 22:07.14 | AcidWeb | I will not share details publicly. |
| 22:07.34 | Simca_ | usually secure execution workarounds |
| 22:08.10 | Simca_ | like when they broke /dump to accidentally have its input run securely |
| 22:08.24 | nevcairiel | the fastest way to make sure it gets into the right hands would be to actually get an actual irc client and just tell dan |
| 22:08.50 | Simca_ | an irc client and register for freenode |
| 22:09.08 | Simca_ | since you need to be authed to send to him i think |
| 22:09.14 | nevcairiel | he already has that |
| 22:09.29 | Simca_ | oh so he does |
| 22:09.29 | nevcairiel | also what sort of terrible bridge is that if you cant even pm people =p |
| 22:09.55 | AcidWeb | one that normally used to bridge entire channels |
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| 22:24.53 | *** join/#wowuidev eke00372 (~eke00372@unaffiliated/eke00372) |
| 22:26.01 | Simca_ | looks like we'll get a new client build tonight |
| 22:26.49 | *** join/#wowuidev Andols2 (~yaaic@m83-185-240-99.cust.tele2.se) |
| 22:30.34 | *** join/#wowuidev Andols (~yaaic@78-70-44-4-no170.tbcn.telia.com) |
| 22:32.58 | Mr_Rabies | what the dink |
| 22:33.01 | Mr_Rabies | a sylevel update |
| 22:33.27 | Mr_Rabies | last date updated was 2015 and today there's a patch just saying "Addressed issue with tradeskill pipe not passing "self" on update." |
| 22:35.53 | Mr_Rabies | oh a few other things earlier today, but the changelog only shows latest version updates, i see |
| 22:43.25 | Mr_Rabies | also i think the solution to the lfg thing is to just let people make groups like they did throughout all of legion, because their inane world quest design is flawed and boring shit that everyone wants done as soon as possible |
| 22:44.36 | foxlit | "flawed and boring shit" adequately describes *all* content. |
| 22:44.45 | Mr_Rabies | there's a reason that even people with lifetime passes to disney world eventually only go a few times a year when it's dead |
| 22:45.05 | foxlit | "m+ dungeons are flawed and boring shit, they should stop fixing exploits that let us just skip to the chest!" |
| 22:45.08 | Mr_Rabies | doing "it's a small world" six times a week will make you hate it |
| 22:46.12 | foxlit | "levelling is flawed and boring shit, they should just nerf mob hp and give me a +300% experience buff!" |
| 22:46.14 | Mr_Rabies | at least grouping up and knocking that shit out quickly is fun |
| 22:46.18 | Mr_Rabies | i mean, yeah |
| 22:46.20 | Mr_Rabies | i agree |
| 22:46.31 | Simca_ | i mean have you seen the recent hotfixes foxlit |
| 22:46.45 | Mr_Rabies | they should honestly just do away with levels entirely at this point if everything scales to be the same difficulty |
| 22:47.07 | Mr_Rabies | just let me work on some stupid expansion-level grind from the beginning and stop worrying about levels |
| 22:48.17 | Mr_Rabies | i do actually feel like the leveling in 7.3.5 was pretty okay with full heirlooms, that's about what it should be baseline |
| 22:48.38 | Mr_Rabies | it's just short of a slog with full heirlooms |
| 22:48.45 | Mr_Rabies | without them it's gotta be torture |
| 22:49.20 | Mr_Rabies | if heirlooms didn't exist i'd probably bot again to level like i did in vanilla, it's that bad :v |
| 22:49.56 | foxlit | (also, all loot should drop at a 100% drop rate. We've already established I can clear this instance, why are you making me do it 42 times?) |
| 22:50.45 | Mr_Rabies | i mean i stopped running instances as soon as i started raiding in legion for that exact reason |
| 22:51.18 | Mr_Rabies | i only did a +15 on the last week of 7.3.5 for the weapon skin |
| 22:51.27 | Mr_Rabies | my highest until that point was like a +4 |
| 22:51.33 | nebula | so what the fuck do you play for, you've complained about basically everything you can do in wow |
| 22:51.55 | Mr_Rabies | i play to raid with my friends |
| 22:52.08 | Mr_Rabies | other than a few choice fights in legion it had some good raid stuff |
| 22:52.56 | Mr_Rabies | and the story while leveling up the first time is fun |
| 22:53.25 | Mr_Rabies | the repeatable carnival ride stuff sucks, though |
| 22:55.25 | Mr_Rabies | i might have enjoyed dungeons more had my guild done them either, most of us pretty much just stopped doing anything but raiding once the grind hit the point where it was no longer really worth doing |
| 22:56.29 | Mr_Rabies | hard to get a bunch of old people with lives to get their schedules to line up more than twice a week though :( |
| 22:57.22 | TheDanW | AcidWeb: yes |
| 22:57.57 | Ammako | I found the built-in Find Group option in quest log to be a good compromise, but that's just me |
| 22:58.05 | Mr_Rabies | yeah, i really miss that |
| 22:58.10 | Mr_Rabies | i used that because the addons were obnoxious |
| 22:58.28 | Mr_Rabies | i don't think most people even knew it existed |
| 22:59.11 | Ammako | The only reason to use addons over it at that point in time was not knowing that it existed, because it basically did the same thing afaik |
| 22:59.22 | Ammako | once they made it so the addons couldn't auto-create and auto-join anymore |
| 22:59.42 | Mr_Rabies | i guess if people were worried about people idling far away and leeching or something |
| 22:59.49 | *** join/#wowuidev Semlar (~semlar@72.189.128.149) |
| 22:59.56 | Mr_Rabies | the author of one of them was like obsessed with kicking the leeches lol |
| 23:02.18 | *** join/#wowuidev cawaker_ (~BigB@1334-1278.ytel.com) |
| 23:07.53 | Mr_Rabies | i mean i definitely understand the load from making groups was a lot of strain on the servers, but that means people were finding a way to enjoy or at least tolerate the daily quests that they really didn't want to do |
| 23:08.22 | Mr_Rabies | if the load from people trying to speed up content they don't want to do is that high, either your server infrastructure or quest design needs work |
| 23:08.38 | Simca_ | did they ever say server strain was why they changed it |
| 23:08.40 | Constie | Using an auto-grouping addon for world quests seems almost kind of self-defeating to me in a way. If it gets to the point that most of the effort you're putting in is in traveling to objectives, that's where they really start feeling like boring chores to me. |
| 23:08.55 | Mr_Rabies | server strain was absolutely 100% why the first change happened |
| 23:09.01 | foxlit | meeeeeh. |
| 23:09.14 | Mr_Rabies | but they didn't say why the 8.0 change happened |
| 23:09.28 | Simca_ | Constie: i do wardens towers on every toon every day, solo. and traveling to objectives is 80% of my playtime |
| 23:09.40 | Simca_ | maybe earlier in the expansion when power levels were low that wasn't true |
| 23:09.43 | Simca_ | but at this point, lol |
| 23:10.08 | Constie | Yeah, that's true. |
| 23:10.55 | Mr_Rabies | getting rid of the listings selling runs is a positive, but a neverending carrot on a stick where i have to kill 20 internet boars would make any mammal start to go nuts |
| 23:11.12 | Mr_Rabies | even a mouse would be trying to escape the skinner box after long enough |
| 23:11.23 | foxlit | You really should stop doing things you don't enjoy. |
| 23:11.28 | foxlit | That would solve a lot of problems. |
| 23:11.56 | Constie | I'm really glad I learned that lesson in MoP. |
| 23:12.05 | Mr_Rabies | i did, eventually, but i hate that like half the game has become stuff that exists only as a carrot on a stick |
| 23:12.18 | Simca_ | if they had implemented the 8.0 change in a way that didn't allow this new breed of questid spam addon to exist, i would be okay with it. not thrilled; i don't think it's a positive change for the game, but i can accept it. it's just this new result where the tool is filled with garbage groups that is really annoying |
| 23:12.53 | Mr_Rabies | i wish everyone would stop doing the stuff that they don't enjoy so they'd get the metrics very clear |
| 23:13.09 | Mr_Rabies | but Simca_, without that the group listing for quests is just about empty 24/7 |
| 23:13.16 | Mr_Rabies | so what even is the point of having it |
| 23:13.22 | Ammako | I'd rather see empty |
| 23:13.44 | Simca_ | same, at least at that point blizzard could know that they need to change something to help make it more popular (i.e. they went too far) |
| 23:13.57 | Mr_Rabies | they should just remove the quest category |
| 23:13.57 | foxlit | (I'd contend that there's a large number of people who enjoy each their own kind of game content, including those perfectly contend to clear the world map every time they log in) |
| 23:14.05 | Ammako | There can be a group for a quest you're looking to do and you have no clue |
| 23:14.23 | Ammako | also the groups from those addons don't go in quest section afaik, they go in custom pve/custom pvp |
| 23:14.36 | Ammako | unless that changed |
| 23:15.04 | Ammako | Some people are nice and take the 2 seconds to include quest name in the title, but majority is lazy and doesn't care |
| 23:15.07 | Mr_Rabies | that's even better, that way quest section is there for people looking for quests |
| 23:15.07 | Simca_ | it's changed, its in quests now |
| 23:15.17 | *** join/#wowuidev cawaker (~BigB@1334-1278.ytel.com) |
| 23:15.37 | Mr_Rabies | custom pve is mostly just "PRIVATE GROUP DO NOT JOIN" and quests is mostly just empty other than addon groups |
| 23:15.45 | foxlit | there's a private checkbox, you know. |
| 23:15.54 | Mr_Rabies | i know, but most people don't know what it does |
| 23:16.07 | Mr_Rabies | that's what i did in 7.X to switch to group loot in raids |
| 23:16.29 | Mr_Rabies | private group named 1 that i refreshed after a bit to keep it from dropping mid-fight |
| 23:16.37 | foxlit | (okay, you caught me, I don't actually know what it does. I assume it hides the group from non-friends, but "know" is a bit strong for this) |
| 23:17.03 | Mr_Rabies | it does hide them from everyone except those that see you in quick join |
| 23:17.08 | Simca_ | yep |
| 23:17.19 | Mr_Rabies | friends, guildies, etc |
| 23:17.20 | Simca_ | those groups are moved to the top in light blue |
| 23:17.41 | Ammako | It tells you what it does when you hover over the checkbox lol |
| 23:17.59 | Mr_Rabies | which that could be a fix for this if the issue is just visual clutter in the group finder |
| 23:18.31 | Mr_Rabies | have the automatic groups appear in a section only the group finder's internal systems and addons can see, like a second category of "private" |
| 23:19.04 | Ammako | That would imply directly accomodating for addons, at that point why not just re-enable the pre-8.0 behavior |
| 23:19.27 | foxlit | "but i hate that like half the game has become stuff that exists only as a carrot on a stick" << broadly, I think that's a mistaken perception: it's just that there's now content that's not *meant for you* and that content now has some mildly appealing rewards. |
| 23:19.51 | Mr_Rabies | problem is that content is the only way to do other content i do like, at least in legion |
| 23:20.17 | Mr_Rabies | there was no other realistic way to get order resources in legion than world quests |
| 23:20.50 | Mr_Rabies | if i could get them from other ways than WQs and trading blood of sarg, i would have done that instead |
| 23:21.06 | Mr_Rabies | (also just about required for the AP grind early on) |
| 23:21.53 | foxlit | so you really liked the mission table minigame? |
| 23:22.10 | Mr_Rabies | yeah, more than world quests at least |
| 23:22.30 | Simca_ | foxlit you were just claiming that maybe people like doing 40 world quests a day, you can't judge what people like after that statement |
| 23:23.02 | foxlit | it's okay to like it, I just wouldn't call it "content" |
| 23:23.24 | Mr_Rabies | it's just as much content as any of the other stuff that only exists to slow down raid progression |
| 23:23.30 | Mr_Rabies | and keep people subbed |
| 23:23.48 | *** join/#wowuidev cawaker_ (~BigB@1334-1278.ytel.com) |
| 23:24.04 | Stanzilla | there is a simple solution to that problem, one that I chose myself |
| 23:24.08 | Stanzilla | just stop playing the damn game |
| 23:24.23 | Mr_Rabies | i might if BFA doesn't surprise me |
| 23:24.39 | Mr_Rabies | it's looking like another WoD, and in hindsight i would have saved so much money unsubbing during WoD |
| 23:25.24 | foxlit | psst, between the token and garrisons, you would've *lost* money by unsubbing during WoD :) |
| 23:25.43 | Mr_Rabies | i mean |
| 23:25.50 | Mr_Rabies | real money |
| 23:26.33 | Mr_Rabies | i bought BFA with gold when tokens were cheaper, because even if i unsubbed who cares how much gold i had at that point |
| 23:26.49 | Simca_ | you still had to level the toons to start doing that foxlit, and set up the whole thing |
| 23:26.55 | Simca_ | it was not free |
| 23:27.43 | Mr_Rabies | i did buy about 6 months of game time with tokens in WoD when the market crashed hard that one time before they implemented buffers on sudden market changes |
| 23:27.50 | foxlit | Simca_: surely it was free if your time had no value |
| 23:27.53 | xyphoid | i'd love to know how many people do the sub for 2 months -> quit until the next xpack thing |
| 23:27.59 | Mr_Rabies | that was the only reason i was subbed during that interval |
| 23:28.01 | Simca_ | okay, that's fair enough foxlit |
| 23:28.10 | Mr_Rabies | like seriously half of my server, xyphoid |
| 23:28.29 | Mr_Rabies | it's AWFUL because we can't ever recruit for shit after the first tier of raiding |
| 23:28.39 | foxlit | re:groups, an entertaining development would be server-side filtering of groups that contain quest IDs: you can create them as usual, but they just wouldn't appear in search results. |
| 23:28.43 | Simca_ | but if your time has no value, i'll pay you 1 penny an hour to do my job |
| 23:29.24 | foxlit | is your job as entertaining as the wow grind? :) |
| 23:29.34 | Mr_Rabies | foxlit loves picking the option that is the least anti-consumer |
| 23:29.40 | Mr_Rabies | what do you do for a living man, sell insurance |
| 23:30.46 | Mr_Rabies | my old GM owned an insurance company, never let an insurance man control your fate in any degree beyond what you have to |
| 23:30.53 | Simca_ | no, i think the devil hired him to be an advocate |
| 23:32.32 | Mr_Rabies | my GM after that was an ex-prison guard captain |
| 23:32.54 | Mr_Rabies | he was actually really good at raid leading but not the best people person :v |
| 23:33.19 | Mr_Rabies | i'm still in the same guild, we just rotate GMs every now and then when the previous one goes nuts |
| 23:33.48 | Mr_Rabies | our current one is a paralegal i think, and she's been our GM since mid-MoP |
| 23:34.32 | Mr_Rabies | deathly afraid i will have to run this thing someday, i haven't run a guild since vanilla when i played 8 hours a day every day |
| 23:36.34 | foxlit | hah, I just think that that is a logical future step in the process that lead to the game design team asking the UI team to implement some brand-new trickery to break an addon, rather than removing the incentive for short-term grouping with complete strangers. |
| 23:38.08 | Mr_Rabies | part of me wishes they had a better way to do it than flat blocking API stuff, but part of me doesn't want every addon author constantly looking over their back anymore than they already do |
| 23:39.16 | foxlit | this particular change seemed painless from an addon author perspective. |
| 23:40.24 | Mr_Rabies | well yeah because you didn't make an addon that interfaced with it |
| 23:40.52 | Mr_Rabies | imagine if they blocked addons' ability to interact with the mission table during WoD, i'm sure you'd have been a bit pissed |
| 23:41.13 | foxlit | I think it broke only the addons it was meant to break, and nobody actually has to take any extra care in interacting with the LFG tool to avoid breaking it for some unrelated scenario. |
| 23:41.27 | Simca_ | you know he's got you there |
| 23:41.35 | Simca_ | in terms of the counterexample |
| 23:41.53 | foxlit | not really, no. |
| 23:42.11 | Mr_Rabies | i mean i doubt you guys make much or anything off them cursebux, but still, all that sunk effort |
| 23:42.50 | Mr_Rabies | if curse payouts were at all worth it then you would have made bank during WoD though, that's for sure |
| 23:43.50 | Stanzilla | curse payout is close to zero these days |
| 23:45.35 | Simca_ | i mean my addons are not popular and i still make a couple hundred dollars whenever i bother to look at the reward stuff, usually once a year |
| 23:45.36 | Mr_Rabies | i figured as such otherwise foxlit probably would have made a followup to master plan - that shit was popular |
| 23:46.09 | foxlit | addon-derived money is just not really a motivation. |
| 23:46.31 | Mr_Rabies | but at their core addons are mostly about making things people don't like doing more palatable, or simply making things they don't like looking at look different |
| 23:47.23 | Mr_Rabies | if i had to do the mission table stuff manually in WoD i would have just stopped entirely after a few months |
| 23:47.43 | Constie | There's a good buck in that WoW addon racket. |
| 23:48.03 | Mr_Rabies | the lfg stuff, other than the impact to server infrastructure, is arguably less trivializing of designed content because you at least have to be in the area and it helps if everyone contributes |
| 23:48.29 | foxlit | It works out to much less per hour than an actual job, so it doesn't really register as income to rely on |
| 23:49.02 | Mr_Rabies | well, that and you never know when your thing will get picked as the new built in option and/or blocked |
| 23:49.20 | Mr_Rabies | either way would kill any monetary incentive that did exist |
| 23:49.21 | Simca_ | to rely solely on, no. but it could make the difference to somebody who is really struggling financially even with a full-time job (happens allll the time here) |
| 23:49.41 | foxlit | so more of an easy come easy go sort of thing. I wouldn't have minded if they killed the garrison rewards in 6.1 to the point where people would stop bothering with the table. |
| 23:50.39 | Simca_ | i feel like you in particular did not enjoy the constant stream of user requests and complaints, but that's just a guess |
| 23:52.59 | foxlit | I don't think that was an issue; people were mostly polite and I'm reasonably good at ignoring things I don't want to handle. |
