| 00:00.47 | *** join/#wowuidev Kodiack (~Colton@97-86-234-157.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com) |
| 00:32.04 | jleclanche | GOD DAMN IT |
| 00:32.06 | jleclanche | http://blog.thinkbroadband.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/regional-speed-distribution.jpg |
| 00:32.08 | jleclanche | fucking unreadable |
| 00:32.33 | jleclanche | this is the worst graph ive seen all month |
| 00:34.38 | zenzelezz | I see they didn't find ut how to rotate text |
| 00:37.24 | Semlar | this should clearly be a line graph |
| 00:37.54 | Neffi | I wonder if there's a better type of graph for this |
| 00:38.53 | Neffi | In fact I'm gonna invent one. Run with me on this. It'll be a map of the regions in question, sub-divided by region, and the speed of given regions will be denoted by a color intensity. |
| 00:38.57 | Neffi | I'll call it a "heat map" |
| 00:39.12 | Semlar | i think that one's taken |
| 00:39.14 | Neffi | And if we need finer-grain readouts of percentages, we could do a simpel table in the right-hand corner |
| 00:39.23 | Neffi | You think? |
| 00:39.33 | Semlar | i try not to think too much |
| 00:39.46 | Primer | I work at a place that specializes in that! |
| 00:39.55 | Neffi | Me too. Sedatives help. |
| 00:40.14 | Primer | I was being serious though. |
| 00:40.21 | Semlar | i could give you a tranq shot |
| 00:40.23 | Neffi | You specialize in heat maps? |
| 00:40.30 | Neffi | har de har har Semlar |
| 00:40.43 | Gnarfoz | jleclanche: it might be because it's unreadable, or because I'm stupid, but isn't it also simply the wrong way around? oO |
| 00:40.54 | Primer | well, our application is all about displaying data on a map, and color coding different range values |
| 00:41.05 | Primer | web base application |
| 00:41.08 | Primer | based |
| 00:41.09 | Semlar | can it be set to cats? |
| 00:41.19 | Neffi | Cat population by region? |
| 00:41.24 | Neffi | brb making a graph |
| 00:41.29 | Semlar | no graph the data in cats |
| 00:41.37 | Neffi | wait wut |
| 00:41.54 | Primer | it's mostly demographic data |
| 00:42.09 | Primer | and socio-economic data |
| 00:42.16 | Semlar | what if i'm going to be graphing cat related data and want a cat motif |
| 00:42.30 | Primer | There is only one look |
| 00:42.33 | Neffi | Texture the bars with fur patterns? |
| 00:42.37 | Primer | It's very dry |
| 00:42.38 | Neffi | Add whiskers to all the text? |
| 00:42.54 | Semlar | i was thinking actually just cats representing the bars |
| 00:43.06 | Semlar | so like the bar could be one and a half cats tall |
| 00:43.08 | Neffi | Longcats? |
| 00:43.14 | Semlar | possibly |
| 00:43.20 | Neffi | We get cats of different ages and sizes and hold them up |
| 00:43.28 | Semlar | kittens and such |
| 00:43.49 | Neffi | What if the data is too small to be represented by any cat? |
| 00:44.07 | Primer | data are* |
| 00:44.10 | Semlar | whisker |
| 00:44.20 | Neffi | Maybe just a little tuft of fur? |
| 00:44.26 | Semlar | just a whisker |
| 00:45.03 | Neffi | I got some examples |
| 00:45.04 | Neffi | http://www.progressivereform.org/imgs/JPEG/Verchick-cats-graph-1.jpg |
| 00:45.17 | Semlar | this is much more comprehensible |
| 00:45.18 | Neffi | http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj4zy0oHxt1qz7zago1_500.png |
| 00:45.32 | Semlar | i see i'm not the first |
| 00:45.48 | Semlar | http://calibermag.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Graph-of-Sweat-Cat.jpg it's beautiful |
| 00:45.51 | Neffi | You couldn't expect such a brilliant idea to not have multiple points of origin |
| 00:46.04 | Neffi | http://xo-whs.wikispaces.com/file/view/catGraph.jpg/43695279/catGraph.jpg |
| 00:49.12 | Semlar | i decided to use a while loop and only increment i if i didn't remove an element |
| 00:49.45 | Semlar | mostly because i needed to iterate over it in the order they were added |
| 00:49.53 | Neffi | That's what I did in a similar situation. Then I looked at my code the next day, and changed it to iterating backwrds. |
| 00:50.09 | Neffi | tinsert @ 1? |
| 00:50.22 | Semlar | i could but this is fine |
| 00:51.42 | Semlar | i am never going to remember what this code does when i come back to it |
| 00:52.33 | Semlar | i could leave a comment, but i think this is for the best |
| 00:53.39 | Semlar | tremove(tbl, 1)(unpack(tbl)) would this be considered bad form |
| 00:54.13 | Neffi | I woukdn't do it |
| 00:54.26 | Neffi | local tbl = tremove(tbl,1); tbl = unpack(tbl) is better |
| 00:54.28 | Semlar | >_> |
| 00:54.34 | Neffi | well |
| 00:54.41 | Neffi | obviously name your variable something else |
| 00:54.57 | Semlar | right now i have local func = tremove(tbl, 1) func(unpack(tbl)) |
| 00:55.14 | Neffi | wait what |
| 00:55.16 | Semlar | but it seems kind of pointless |
| 00:55.31 | Neffi | So table is {function() end, arg1, arg2, arg3} ? |
| 00:55.40 | Semlar | yeah |
| 00:55.48 | Neffi | Your way seems fine, but it might confuse some people |
| 00:55.49 | Semlar | well, it's just a reference to the function |
| 00:55.51 | Neffi | Then again fuck some people |
| 00:56.04 | Semlar | THIS WAS HARD FOR ME TO WRITE SO IT SHOULD BE HARD FOR YOU TO READ |
| 00:56.11 | Neffi | lol |
| 00:56.20 | Neffi | Honestly it looks like something I'd do |
| 00:56.44 | Neffi | But I also don't write addon code for other people to read |
| 00:57.19 | Semlar | i actually don't want this to be all that readable because i don't want it to be too easy to mess with the comm channel |
| 00:57.45 | Semlar | it's not like i can really add any security |
| 00:58.07 | Neffi | Obscurity it is then |
| 00:58.32 | Semlar | that shouldn't be too hard since i wrote this terribly to begin with |
| 00:59.16 | Neffi | Take a page out of the book of others: it might be made terribly, but it was made with love, so you're gonna fucking eat it |
| 00:59.23 | Neffi | The last part might not be applicable |
| 00:59.45 | Semlar | it doesn't have to look good it just has to work |
| 01:00.32 | Neffi | That's my feeling on prositutes |
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| 01:01.08 | Neffi | And now I have to go make some food before I keel over |
| 01:02.17 | Semlar | keel haul |
| 01:08.11 | pompy | http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E4MQODC/ oh didnt kno a new mouse was out |
| 01:08.57 | pompy | bought time they went with a wiresless gaming mouse |
| 01:10.47 | pompy | about* |
| 01:12.39 | TC-Work | aaaaand now I am learning ruby |
| 01:12.49 | TC-Work | such random crap |
| 01:14.25 | Dagmar | sneers |
| 01:15.32 | TC-Work | Not an opnion from Dagmar *gasp*. |
| 01:16.58 | Dagmar | Hey it's not my fault I have a fondness for _safe_ languages |
| 01:17.23 | TC-Work | I dno't know much about ruby per se, i just need to learn about it now. |
| 01:17.29 | TC-Work | don't* |
| 01:18.59 | Dagmar | Let's just say that the language had rather a lot to do with some of those Bitcoin exchange compromises |
| 01:19.45 | Gnarfoz | the developers who wrote shitty software with it probably had |
| 01:20.49 | Dagmar | All those super-peachy keen functions that ruby devs are so hot and bothered about making things easy turned out to not be _safe to use_ |
| 01:21.13 | Dagmar | Some as wonderful as SSL negotiation functions that were overflowable. Good times! |
| 01:21.23 | Gnarfoz | who even uses SSL anymore |
| 01:22.03 | Dagmar | Everyone who's figured out they're not running on a digital watch |
| 01:22.27 | Gnarfoz | no, that audience is probably using TLS now adays |
| 01:22.50 | Gnarfoz | s/w a/wa/ |
| 01:23.36 | Dagmar | TC-work: I'm not sayin' Ruby is a bad idea from the start, but the guys coding it were fairly naieve when it came to the writing its binary component. |
| 01:24.00 | Gnarfoz | doesn't matter one bit to him, in case you hadn't noticed |
| 01:24.25 | TC-Work | I just assumed that comment was directed at Gnarfoz. |
| 01:24.30 | Primer | I thought node was the scripting language du jour |
| 01:24.36 | Primer | well, javascript... |
| 01:24.41 | Gnarfoz | Primer: jour changed, so lang changed |
| 01:24.55 | Primer | I'm still stuck writing perl |
| 01:25.08 | TC-Work | So am I :( |
| 01:25.10 | Gnarfoz | TC-Work: what now? :D |
| 01:25.11 | Primer | I never jumped on the python, and subsequently, ruby, bandwagons |
| 01:25.11 | TC-Work | but not much |
| 01:25.26 | TC-Work | Gnarfoz: huh? |
| 01:25.36 | Gnarfoz | why would the comment be for me |
| 01:25.51 | Gnarfoz | you know it's for himself anyway |
| 01:25.56 | TC-Work | Because you and Dagmar were discussing things |
| 01:26.04 | Gnarfoz | no we weren't |
| 01:26.05 | Gnarfoz | :D |
| 01:26.16 | TC-Work | Mor or less |
| 01:26.16 | Gnarfoz | it might have looked that way, though |
| 01:26.57 | TC-Work | Whatever, he is nowhere close to the other guy that came in here and used this channel as his personal soap box. |
| 01:27.02 | TC-Work | can't remember his name atm |
| 01:27.34 | Gnarfoz | I won't speak his name! |
| 01:27.52 | Gnarfoz | lest I invoke his wrath |
| 01:27.54 | Gnarfoz | or worse, his presence |
| 01:27.57 | TC-Work | Just don't say it thrice |
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| 01:58.15 | Neffi | dafuq http://imgur.com/gallery/AH881 |
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| 02:38.53 | Neffi | What should I get first, Oblivion or Morrowind? |
| 02:39.06 | Neffi | Already played Skyrim a dozen or so times |
| 02:40.40 | Torhal | Neffi: I played the hell out of Morrowind back in the day. Only played Oblivion a few hours, but then again I packed up and moved to Alabama a few days after getting it. |
| 02:40.58 | Torhal | I should probably install it again. |
| 02:41.00 | Torhal | :D |
| 02:41.08 | Neffi | People say Morrowind is the best of the series. Never touched it. |
| 02:41.50 | Neffi | The difference in combat and responsiveness between Oblivion and Skyrim are pretty big. I had trouble getting used to Oblivion, but I'm ready to give it another shot. I'm wondering if Morrowind would be a much bigger jump. |
| 02:42.13 | Torhal | Completely different combat - Morrowind is a "dice-roll" system. |
| 02:42.37 | Torhal | Also crazy easy to level stuff up. |
| 02:43.04 | Torhal | I leveled jumping and armor and perhaps another skill by hitting my spacebar for 30 minutes while something was whacking on me. |
| 02:43.21 | Iriel | Is that a compliment or a criticism? |
| 02:43.43 | Torhal | Neither, though I suppose it should be a criticism on the skill system... |
| 02:43.57 | Neffi | Torhal: But it's not turn-based, correct? |
| 02:44.02 | Torhal | But they made it a steeper curve later so I suppose that was their way of iteratively fixing it |
| 02:44.11 | Torhal | Neffi: Oh, no. "Realtime" |
| 02:44.14 | Neffi | Good |
| 02:44.25 | Torhal | Just the hits and misses are "dice-roll" style. |
| 02:44.33 | Neffi | That's alright |
| 02:44.34 | Torhal | Kinda like WoW. |
| 02:44.34 | Torhal | :D |
| 02:44.52 | Neffi | I've played games that heavily emphasized dice roll a la DnD, and some of them were fun |
| 02:47.06 | Torhal | Iriel: Oh, did you mean the dice-roll comment? Wasn't a criticism, I just remember when Oblivion came out they received accolades for getting away from it. |
| 02:47.21 | Iriel | Torhal: the spacebar comment, more than the dice roll one. |
| 02:47.42 | Iriel | I started the series at Oblivion myself. |
| 02:48.17 | Torhal | Iriel: I think I had OP armor at the time, but it was relatively easy to get by going into ruins and killing Daedra by fireballing then running out - rinse and repeat. |
| 02:48.37 | Torhal | Cheap way, but hey - I could do it so did. |
| 02:48.56 | Neffi | Sort of like leveling sneak to 100 in Skyrim and sticking around a corner or pillar? |
| 02:49.02 | Iriel | Torhal: I wasn't judging 8-) |
| 02:49.25 | Torhal | :D |
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| 03:21.53 | Shirik | Anyone here ever used premiere pro? Know if it's capable of streaming? |
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| 03:41.55 | fewyn | it's a video editor |
| 03:49.22 | Thunder_Child | Shirik: What fewyn said |
| 03:49.36 | Shirik | yeah I know :( |
| 03:49.40 | Shirik | I was thinking maybe |
| 03:49.49 | Shirik | I got it for video editing but was like "hm well I wonder..." |
| 03:50.12 | Thunder_Child | You really bought it for League stuff? |
| 03:53.08 | Shirik | no |
| 03:53.12 | Shirik | I've had Premiere for a long time |
| 03:53.19 | Shirik | but I was like "hey I wonder if this works" |
| 03:53.54 | fewyn | if you're going to stream |
| 03:53.56 | fewyn | get OBS |
| 03:54.16 | Shirik | I've been recommended xSplit |
| 03:54.29 | fewyn | that's pretty good but it's paid |
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| 05:10.59 | karl_w_w | I have used OBS, it's pretty good |
| 05:16.40 | Neffi | foxlit: I need to chew you out one more time over OPie |
| 05:16.47 | Neffi | Default bindings are evil |
| 05:16.49 | Neffi | EVIL |
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| 07:42.10 | jnwhiteh | bah |
| 07:42.17 | jnwhiteh | anyone have an EU hearthstone key? |
| 07:43.54 | jnwhiteh | (spare one) |
| 07:43.57 | jnwhiteh | i only have a US one :P |
| 07:52.48 | Semlar | i have.. a cat |
| 07:52.56 | Semlar | will that do? |
| 08:11.37 | mikma | nevcairiel: ping |
| 08:12.17 | mikma | nevcairiel: what's the new german emailservice that was founded last month, aimed at privacy? |
| 08:22.26 | karl_w_w | HS keys aren't region specific jnwhiteh |
| 08:22.57 | jnwhiteh | karl_w_w: but I applied my key to my US account the day beta came out |
| 08:23.04 | jnwhiteh | but I woudl rather have it on my EU account |
| 08:23.04 | karl_w_w | ah |
| 08:23.06 | jnwhiteh | which is my main account |
| 08:23.29 | karl_w_w | there will be a big invite wave soon apparently |
| 08:23.42 | karl_w_w | my guess is after maintenance this week |
| 08:24.00 | jnwhiteh | but |
| 08:24.05 | jnwhiteh | if my gmail account already got one |
| 08:24.09 | jnwhiteh | will they not include me in the next? |
| 08:24.11 | jnwhiteh | =) |
| 08:25.10 | jnwhiteh | they do something dumb like doing this really bad non-bnet associated beta |
| 08:25.24 | jnwhiteh | but the one thing they get right will be the thing that messes me up :P |
| 08:29.18 | karl_w_w | "play 40 minions that cost 2 or less" interesting weekly |
| 08:29.26 | karl_w_w | daily* |
| 08:31.37 | jnwhiteh | yeah |
| 08:31.44 | jnwhiteh | time to break out my hunter deck, in that case =) |
| 08:31.49 | jnwhiteh | but i've stopped, waiting for the wipe |
| 08:33.21 | karl_w_w | im playing arena |
| 08:33.31 | karl_w_w | cos you get that back to play again after the wipe |
| 08:33.41 | jnwhiteh | yeah |
| 08:33.48 | jnwhiteh | well i'm hoping to switch to EU after wipe |
| 08:33.50 | jnwhiteh | so I'd lose that |
| 08:34.03 | karl_w_w | jeez i hate winning the toss against rogues |
| 08:34.29 | jnwhiteh | yay, combo-maker |
| 08:34.58 | jnwhiteh | there's what, a a 80% chance they can get a defias combo in the first turn even if they have to mulligan? |
| 08:38.00 | Fisker | If i could unbind my key and trade with yours jnwhiteh :( |
| 08:38.11 | jnwhiteh | aww <3 |
| 08:39.14 | mikma | jnwhiteh: http://imgur.com/gallery/edBXKiT |
| 08:39.29 | jnwhiteh | omg the top comment wins |
| 08:39.46 | Fisker | that's usually the purpose of top comments |
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| 08:47.13 | zenzelezz | "Don't let a math major hear you calling vectors 'points' or 'coordinates'!" |
| 08:51.34 | Neffi | Math majors are so fucking anal. They're always correcting you about vectors and how the medium drink is called GRANDE |
| 08:52.18 | zenzelezz | I'm sure they'd have a fit about how what we call a "half liter" in a pub here is usually 0,4 liters |
| 08:52.46 | karl_w_w | fucking same rogue twice in a row to start my arena run |
| 08:53.09 | karl_w_w | and he has some fucking amazing deck with a knife juggler and a million cheap minions that summon other minions |
| 08:54.28 | Neffi | http://imgur.com/gallery/evvEH <- these are cool |
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| 09:01.03 | karl_w_w | fucking hate arena sometimes |
| 09:01.09 | karl_w_w | well, most of the time |
| 09:01.35 | karl_w_w | no they aren't Neffi |
| 09:03.56 | Clamsoda | Wow...Magnetoise looks like he could take on a transformer or 4. |
| 09:04.41 | Fisker | Yeah Magnetoise is awesome |
| 09:10.46 | Clamsoda | Does anyone else have a Maine Coon? |
| 09:18.50 | Fisker | this is probably Shirik's fault again |
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| 11:05.32 | karl_w_w | damn ysera is a fun card |
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| 11:45.40 | foxlit | Neffi: [06:16:47] Default bindings are evil << So disable them? It's like one checkbox. |
| 11:48.36 | karl_w_w | that awesome moment when a paladin plays humility on one of your minions and you get him to silence it next turn |
| 11:50.13 | foxlit | scratch that, it's exactly one checkbox. |
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| 12:04.35 | Maldivia | ok, the "chest room" on the timeless isle is insane :P |
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| 12:09.30 | karl_w_w | insanely boring, Maldivia? :P |
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| 12:19.50 | Maldivia | karl_w_w: as in the return of investment there, compared to the vendors :P |
| 12:21.16 | Maldivia | karl_w_w: 8000 coins yielded 10 armor tokens + 1 burden of eternity |
| 12:25.35 | karl_w_w | luck is lucky |
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| 13:17.47 | karl_w_w | "You could have stopped it." - Grandma |
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| 13:23.27 | Clamsoda | Good morninmg. |
| 13:23.31 | Clamsoda | Err....morning >.< |
| 13:23.47 | *** join/#wowuidev harl (harl@dslb-188-101-012-048.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 13:23.50 | karl_w_w | I'll morninmg you! |
| 13:24.07 | Clamsoda | =X. |
| 13:25.53 | Clamsoda | What does the "_w_w" in your name represent, Karl? |
| 13:26.05 | karl_w_w | my boobies |
| 13:26.12 | Clamsoda | Interesting. |
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| 13:38.47 | karl_w_w | I broke the 1 quadrillion cookies baked mark |
| 13:39.00 | karl_w_w | played for 5 days |
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| 14:37.34 | karl_w_w | oh no I broke my nexus 4 |
| 14:37.37 | karl_w_w | ...bumper |
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| 15:18.52 | karl_w_w | haha if somebody plays illidan against a druid, illidan says "hello, brother" |
| 15:38.35 | Maldivia | just one of the many cute "eastereggs" |
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| 16:14.39 | zenzelezz | "Call me Romanian, but I can't tell if this is serious or not" o_O |
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| 17:16.04 | zenzelezz | don't suppose anyone has had GD report "one parameter to a memory allocation multiplication is negative or zero"? I can't seem to track it down :-/ (this is PHP, probably something in the GD module) |
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| 17:20.06 | haste | it doesn't report where? |
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| 17:24.46 | zenzelezz | is says which line, but if I dump the resource right before the call, it shows as a valid resource |
| 17:24.54 | zenzelezz | going to have to mess around with it it seems |
| 17:25.01 | zenzelezz | no obvious google result |
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| 18:17.01 | Neffi__ | This is actually really cool http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/09/snobbish-photons-forced-to-pair-up-and-get-heavy/ |
| 18:17.50 | Neffi__ | Using a gas that was kept excited so the electron's held in a high orbital (thus blocking photon absorption) they got photons to act as massive particles and form Cooper-like pairs with each other |
| 18:18.57 | foxlit | did you know that you do not regenerate energy while fatigued? |
| 18:19.17 | Shirik | I think what you're ammising |
| 18:19.24 | Shirik | is that they created a LIGHTSABER |
| 18:19.41 | Shirik | well without the cutting part |
| 18:19.45 | Shirik | but still lightsaber |
| 18:20.06 | Neffi | wut |
| 18:20.33 | Shirik | http://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged-in/science-trumps-force-create-real-life-lightsaber-223711142.html |
| 18:20.37 | Neffi | I doubt it would behave like that |
| 18:21.39 | Neffi | Sure the electrons have strange non-straight paths, but it's not a lightsaber |
| 18:21.44 | Neffi | photons* |
| 18:21.49 | Shirik | it doesn't cut |
| 18:22.00 | Shirik | but it certainly can collide with a second lightsaber |
| 18:22.11 | Shirik | it's more like beating someone with a stick |
| 18:22.27 | Neffi | Nah |
| 18:22.41 | Neffi | It would behave in a more gaseous fashion |
| 18:23.27 | Neffi | As the two lightsaber collided, the gaseous environment would scatter away and the photons should spontaneously break bond and fly away |
| 18:24.09 | Neffi | If you even could contain the Rydberg rubidium in the shape of a saber |
| 18:25.08 | Neffi | You'd have better luck shining the excitation laser in your enemy's eye tbh |
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| 18:45.22 | g0urra | fellow student told me he "called windows" because his product key was faulty.. |
| 18:45.33 | g0urra | and he's studying computer science |
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| 18:55.51 | foxlit | g0urra: evidence inconclusive, try asking him to draw some petri nets. |
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| 19:22.25 | Neffi | I've met plenty of 2.5-year comp sci majors who still cannot grasp the concept of an if-statement |
| 19:26.33 | Thunder_Child | That is scary |
| 19:27.27 | Neffi | It's kinda scary how many students can get by just leveraging things like grade curves, open-book exams, Googling for answers on their smartphone, etc |
| 19:27.52 | Neffi | In the classes I've been through so far, class size is usually 25-30, and no more than 5 have ever passed a class |
| 19:28.38 | Neffi | I wonder how I'm still seeing people at intermediate-level programming that can't understand the basic concept. How did they pass 100-level courses? |
| 19:30.10 | Semlar | why does curse have separate "favorite" and "like" buttons |
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| 19:31.04 | Stanzilla | favorite keeps a list for you |
| 19:31.08 | Stanzilla | like is just a like |
| 19:31.56 | Neffi | hey Semlar, you ratchet? |
| 19:32.37 | Semlar | the like button looks too much like it's for facebook |
| 19:35.23 | Amarande | Soo ... haven't played WoW since 5.1. Any particularly major new additions to the addon scene, or any addons that I was probably used to then that died out in the meanwhile? |
| 19:36.17 | Semlar | not much has changed |
| 19:36.46 | Semlar | except you can see most rares on the minimap now |
| 19:37.07 | Amarande | hmmmm |
| 19:37.10 | Amarande | that a good or a bad feature :) |
| 19:37.38 | TGiFallen | it's good, when it works |
| 19:37.52 | Amarande | I was thinking more its effects on the competitive aspect of rare hunting |
| 19:38.01 | TGiFallen | no change at all |
| 19:38.26 | Amarande | how far away can you spot a rare, like ... far enough away that every time one pops there's going to be a clump of hunters the size of the Imperial Fleet, or only within say targeting range? |
| 19:38.33 | TGiFallen | the real competetive rare hunting means people stand there within range of the spawn point with some program spamming a macro to target and pull the rare. |
| 19:39.27 | Amarande | mind you, if you really want to be serious about rare hunting, then you make bnet friends on as many different servers as possible :) |
| 19:40.04 | Semlar | the range is your minimap |
| 19:40.21 | Amarande | hm, I wonder what Blizz thinks about the deliberate use of cross-server parties to game the system like that |
| 19:40.38 | Amarande | or for, say, being able to level a character for a PvP server without having to worry about PvP (by partying with a friend on a PvE server so you level there instead of on yours) |
| 19:44.58 | *** join/#wowuidev purl (~purl@rikers.org) |
| 19:44.58 | *** topic/#wowuidev is http://pastebin.com || 5.4.x ToC: 50400 || #WoWUIDev-commits: CIA & JIRA bots reporting || Battletags: http://goo.gl/2bm7n || This channel is logged, via purl || BlizzCon! Nov. 8-9 || Happy Birthday Seerah! |
| 19:45.04 | TGiFallen | you can't say that ganking is rare, and then go on to say that there are 2-3 places where ganking always occurs |
| 19:45.09 | foxlit | heh, "You cannot sell items to this merchant" |
| 19:45.10 | TGiFallen | it's one or the other |
| 19:45.15 | foxlit | worst. new feature. ever. |
| 19:45.23 | Amarande | TGiFallen, presumably ganking is rare in most of the rest of the world |
| 19:45.28 | Amarande | foxlit: new? I think that came out with cata |
| 19:45.37 | Neffi | go become an English major |
| 19:45.44 | Amarande | I remember at least one thing in Vashj'ir that would open up a merchant window but not let you sell to it |
| 19:45.49 | foxlit | I haven't ran into any of those NPCs before. |
| 19:45.58 | TGiFallen | don't turn this into a personal attack on me Neffi because you contradicted yourself |
| 19:46.09 | Semlar | he's backpeddling |
| 19:46.11 | Amarande | I think it's the spot that lets you initially repair gear when you're first sinking in |
| 19:46.23 | Semlar | he's going to try and clarify his statement, don't let him! |
| 19:46.28 | Neffi | I'm turning into an attack on your getting caught up on semantics |
| 19:46.37 | Neffi | Like a 3rd year English major |
| 19:47.04 | TGiFallen | it isn't semantics, it's blatent contradiction on your part. |
| 19:47.08 | Semlar | it has zero to do with semantics you know people are still getting ganked, just because you know how to avoid it doesn't mean it isn't happening |
| 19:47.19 | Amarande | TGiFallen: if ganking was constant in, say, Netherstorm and nonexistent elsewhere, wouldn't you say it's rare, simply because there's almost never a reason to go to Netherstorm? :) |
| 19:47.25 | Neffi | That's great. And Amarande understood exactly what was intended. |
| 19:47.30 | Neffi | So you've added nothing meaningful |
| 19:48.36 | Amarande | one thing that is sad, though. as someone who knows a lot of both US and EU WoW players, I've discovered that apparently it may be impossible to get a cross-region WoW account anymore. |
| 19:48.40 | TGiFallen | but it isn't Amarande, I get ganked in duskwood, redridge, burning steppes, STV, ashenvale, desolace, Hellfire, Nagrand, Storm peaks, borean tundra, Grizzly hills, Zul'drak, Hyjal, Twilight highlands and Jade Forest |
| 19:49.00 | foxlit | maybe someone put a price on your head. |
| 19:49.00 | Neffi | Then you must ask for it |
| 19:49.05 | foxlit | by the way, that's an excellent idea for an addon |
| 19:49.16 | Neffi | The only place I see ongoing ganking is Hellfire |
| 19:49.25 | Neffi | And I've stuck to high-pop PvP servers since BC |
| 19:49.34 | Amarande | Not that I was planning to get one in the near future, but it's something I've considered every now and then so I can play with my EU buddies at some point. |
| 19:49.36 | Semlar | i swear there was a bounty addon but maybe that was just a forum |
| 19:49.54 | Amarande | I had happened to visit an eu.battle.net forum thread and it still showed me as "Welcome, (name)" |
| 19:49.58 | TGiFallen | yes but Neffi, do you play on a horde dominatated PVP server as horde, i assume you would |
| 19:50.08 | Amarande | so apparently your battle.net account as a whole works on every region |
| 19:50.23 | Neffi | No, I play on relatively balanced servers, or if I play on an unbalanced server I play the opposing faction |
| 19:50.31 | Neffi | Eg my horde are on an alliance-dominated server |
| 19:50.36 | TGiFallen | heh, maybe foxlit, and maybe you guys are lucky, but go on the forums and you can read entire threads about people bragging about how they ganked people for hours across all sorts of levelling zones |
| 19:50.37 | Neffi | I like having more people my level to face off with |
| 19:50.39 | Semlar | unless you're constantly leveling new characters why would you even see ganking |
| 19:50.42 | Amarande | also, if I logged onto bnet via eu.battle.net instead of us., it would show my account and indicate my lack of any euros in my b.net balance (which seems to be separate from the USD one, since I have a few cents left over in that from D3) |
| 19:51.06 | Amarande | however, if you're American, even if you log on from eu., it will still only allow you the option to create a new WoW account in North America |
| 19:51.10 | Amarande | interesting. :| |
| 19:51.15 | TGiFallen | and semlar is also correct, I level a lot. It would be easy for someone who never levels anymore to say ganking is rare |
| 19:51.30 | Neffi | I level 3-4 characters per expansion |
| 19:51.40 | Semlar | when everyone else is doing it? |
| 19:51.43 | Neffi | I'm leveling two right now without issue. Both on pretty high pop servers. |
| 19:51.45 | Amarande | TGiFallen, let's see about those zones you've noted |
| 19:52.00 | Amarande | STV? Always been rife with PvP, especially with the fact that PvP is a common means to take out competitors in the Fishing Contest |
| 19:52.01 | TGiFallen | those are all contested zones amarande |
| 19:52.18 | Amarande | Hellfire? There are specific PvP objectives and rewards in Hellfire |
| 19:52.18 | Neffi | I go to places like STV hoping for PvP |
| 19:52.21 | Neffi | It's not there |
| 19:52.24 | Amarande | Nagrand? Same. |
| 19:52.39 | Semlar | i still think they should do something like the censer where if you kill someone anyone can attack you |
| 19:52.49 | TGiFallen | yeah doesn't really change the fact that i still get ganked when i'm not even close to those pvp objectives |
| 19:52.55 | Amarande | Grizzly Hills? Yup, and it has one of the largest PvP content areas outside of battlegrounds, besides Wintergrasp and TB. |
| 19:53.34 | Amarande | Are the gankers relatively close to your level or are you grey to them? |
| 19:54.12 | Semlar | it wouldn't be ganking if you even remotely stood a chance |
| 19:54.13 | TGiFallen | uhh, some are 85 ish, some 90, others are sometimes 20 or more levels above but still not close to cap |
| 19:54.21 | Amarande | If you're green or better to them, they may be after the easy honor points from killing a PvE player |
| 19:54.30 | Amarande | Semlar: yeah, but you can be out of standing a chance territory and still be green |
| 19:54.30 | TGiFallen | yeah it's never like that |
| 19:54.45 | Amarande | you're not going to be able to take on someone 8 levels higher than you, especially not with five-level expansions now |
| 19:54.55 | TGiFallen | always way above me |
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| 19:55.40 | Amarande | indeed, if you don't mind becoming well known as a jerk, you might well as a 90 on a pvp server head to places like Deepholm and Uldum to prey on the 82-84's who stand no chance but are still green to you heh |
| 19:56.30 | Semlar | i don't know, i think you can pretty much gank without consequence |
| 19:56.34 | Amarande | it's one of the worse of the oddball consequences of level compression. back in the day, that 8 level difference would have been 16 and there'd be no honor in it |
| 19:56.57 | Amarande | Semlar: the point is that if you're 90 and go prey on Uldum or Deepholm, you still get honor for your super easy ganks |
| 19:57.30 | TGiFallen | there needs to be dishonorable kills again |
| 19:57.40 | Amarande | OTOH, if, to give an olden days corresponding example, you're 80 and go prey on Zangarmarsh or Terokkar, everyone would be grey and you'd get no honor |
| 19:58.05 | Semlar | there used to be something called dishonorable kills |
| 19:58.42 | TGiFallen | hence "again" :P |
| 19:58.50 | TGiFallen | back in vanilla before hte pvp changes |
| 19:58.51 | Semlar | where if you killed someone that was grey to you it counted against your ranking |
| 19:59.12 | Amarande | must have made city raids even more challenging |
| 19:59.26 | Amarande | not just beat the guards and the high levels and the leaders, but also try not to catch anyone who counts minus in your AoE, I guess :) |
| 19:59.29 | kd3 | civilian kills hurt scores more than anything else |
| 19:59.41 | Semlar | yeah if you killed an NPC it would also count against you |
| 19:59.50 | TGiFallen | city raids didn't happen much, and if they did, it was more so raiding Darnassus b/c it was empty |
| 19:59.55 | Amarande | I'm guessing guards weren't included, though? |
| 20:00.00 | TGiFallen | no, iirc |
| 20:00.02 | Semlar | guards didn't count |
| 20:00.11 | Semlar | but like quest givers and stuff would |
| 20:00.25 | Amarande | also, did attendants like Varimathras count as acceptable targets or minus? |
| 20:00.48 | Amarande | mind you, killing Varimathras is a pretty honorable act, on balance, but ... heh |
| 20:00.58 | Semlar | anyone who would attack you probably didn't count |
| 20:01.14 | Semlar | it was so long ago i don't really remember |
| 20:01.40 | fewyn | hrm |
| 20:01.48 | fewyn | what colour should i change my instance or raid chat to? |
| 20:01.48 | Amarande | also guards were never grey to you, I'm supposing |
| 20:01.51 | fewyn | so i stop getting confused |
| 20:01.59 | Semlar | guards could be grey |
| 20:02.08 | Amarande | in fact guards these days are often known to be higher level than raid bosses |
| 20:02.32 | Amarande | especially fun is trying to do city raids during the weeks just before a new expansion :) |
| 20:02.38 | TGiFallen | yeah in vanilla they used to be level 55 |
| 20:03.02 | Amarande | and a single guard could rip a tank apart in two hits or so |
| 20:03.10 | Amarande | a full, raid-geared tank |
| 20:03.18 | Semlar | i don't remember guards being a very big deal |
| 20:03.26 | kd3 | dishonorable kills were only for civilians... you could kill low-level players/NPCs, they just wouldn't give an HK |
| 20:03.30 | TGiFallen | not in vanilla they weren't |
| 20:03.30 | Semlar | plus FD totally worked on them |
| 20:03.49 | Amarande | Semlar: I remember when ... hmm which one was it, 3.0.2 or 4.0.1 came out |
| 20:03.57 | Amarande | probably 3.0.2 since that was the one where achievements were introduced |
| 20:04.03 | Semlar | now the guards on the isle of quel'danas, those were fun |
| 20:04.19 | Amarande | people would try to go on city raids right away (after the guards had been boosted to level 75 and Wrath stats) and it would be nail-biting |
| 20:04.24 | Semlar | they would pretty much just attack you for no apparent reason |
| 20:04.36 | Amarande | because the guards at that point would take apart a T6 tank like they were in cloth |
| 20:05.09 | Amarande | basically, I mean in the points just before expansions where the expansion gameplay changes have been introduced but not the new levels |
| 20:05.26 | Amarande | so the guards are usually 5 levels higher than you and deal damage appropriate to the next expansion's horrendous gear inflation |
| 20:05.27 | Semlar | we assaulted the alliance cities when the guards and such all had their levels raised and we still managed to do it |
| 20:05.50 | Semlar | they were just more like minibosses |
| 20:06.11 | Amarande | I'm guessing that will be every new expansion till they finally do the gear smoothing they've suggested for years now |
| 20:06.21 | Amarande | but who knows if they'll ever do that, they were going to do it for cata, then mop, then ... |
| 20:06.48 | Semlar | there is such a huge difference between tiers right now it's ridiculous |
| 20:07.04 | Amarande | after that, it'll probably be like most other MMOs where top gear from the old expansion will get you through the leveling part of the new without much trouble |
| 20:07.10 | Amarande | e.g., LOTRO, TOR |
| 20:07.16 | Semlar | i literally do twice as much damage as the people in LFR |
| 20:07.24 | TGiFallen | the thing i find most ridiculous... is that shit from ToT (tier bonuses and trinkets) were soo powerful that they had to nerf them when 5.4 came out |
| 20:07.39 | Amarande | I'm not sure why they keep up with that exponential inflation |
| 20:07.46 | Amarande | seems like the best thing for it would be the gear smoothing |
| 20:08.32 | Amarande | mind you at some points it was probably seen as more important, especially when leaving vanilla (naxx stuff was approaching the ilvl of starting BC epics even as it was actually done) |
| 20:08.52 | TGiFallen | some examples, Monk tank 2 set, Rogue 4 Set, Un-erring vision of lei shen for warlocks, WW monks had their mastery changed because rune of re-origination was too powerful with the mastery proc |
| 20:09.28 | Amarande | naxx got to ilvl what ... 92 I think? while starting level 70 epics were 100 |
| 20:09.44 | TGiFallen | 91* |
| 20:09.46 | TGiFallen | and correct |
| 20:10.07 | Amarande | I suppose if there hadn't been a big gear reset, they'd still have had to have a huge ramp up over the 60s just to make Kara actually be an improvement over Naxx :) |
| 20:10.38 | Amarande | sometimes the gear resets are poorly done though I think ... probably the worst was Wrath into Cata |
| 20:10.53 | Amarande | it was fine enough if you raided a lot in wrath and had ICC gear, then the transition was pretty smooth |
| 20:11.21 | Amarande | otherwise, it got pretty damn painful, and with good reason since you were basically jumping to content almost 100 item levels higher |
| 20:12.18 | Amarande | more than that really, usually, since you probably didn't hit stormpeaks or icecrown before you hit 80, so you didn't even have 174-187, you maybe had some 162 from Sholazar at best. no wonder my characters go squoosh so easily when first entering cata |
| 20:12.38 | Semlar | http://i.imgur.com/oq2Qqxx.jpg dat dps |
| 20:12.57 | Amarande | well that and on say a mage, you become overconfident when you level |
| 20:13.17 | Amarande | and not without reason, since once you get Ice Barrier, it pretty much makes you nigh invulnerable on any reasonable leveling fight until you hit Vashj'ir/Hyjal |
| 20:13.22 | Amarande | then you realise you're squishy again :) |
| 20:13.27 | Neffi | Caffeine withdrawals are a fucking bitch |
| 20:14.13 | Amarande | seriously, you can pretty much level 70-80 in northrend on a mage almost without taking any damage at all, if you've got IB specced |
| 20:14.37 | Amarande | ... and then the first mob in Vashj'ir takes a huge chunk out of your HP, and two mobs can easily kill you |
| 20:14.52 | Neffi | IME a frost mage can pretty much level all the way without taking damage |
| 20:15.14 | Amarande | unless maybe it's my own damn fault for choosing Vashj'ir |
| 20:15.15 | TGiFallen | not true amarande, levelling a mage in hyjal right now, in crappy wrath greens mobs are dead before they can even make it to me |
| 20:15.43 | Amarande | I like the whole underwater thing, but ultimately, it seems to be the fool's choice now compared to Hyjal |
| 20:15.53 | Amarande | It especially doesn't help that there's no extra reward for finishing Vashj'ir, either |
| 20:15.54 | TGiFallen | ice bolt, pet freeze, ice lance, and it's typically dead, if not frost nova ice lance |
| 20:16.27 | Amarande | Especially because if you find you want anything from Molten Front (either the craft recipes, or because you're a hunter and want the rare pets from there), you have to go back and do most of Hyjal anyway so you can unlock it :P |
| 20:16.31 | TGiFallen | or if i'm bored, icejaw, deep freeze, ice lance ice lance icelance and dead |
| 20:16.54 | Amarande | Vashj'ir gave you ... bugs and a raid that never happened, LOL |
| 20:19.32 | Neffi | Vash is the water zone right? |
| 20:19.32 | Amarande | yup |
| 20:19.32 | Neffi | IMO avoid that on ranged classes. Impossible to kite. Especially a bitch with a mage since you can't use Freeze. |
| 20:19.32 | Amarande | It was a nice idea, but it was especially rife with bugs early on and they didn't even add in the raid that was originally intended to be there in 4.1 |
| 20:20.12 | Amarande | It especially hurt Horde, IIRC ... I think Alliance got a small but not trivial advantage out of the Vashj'ir launch bugs |
| 20:22.06 | TGiFallen | >first alliance advantage in game ever |
| 20:22.06 | TGiFallen | >only there because it's a bug |
| 20:22.06 | Neffi | Alliance almost got a PvP advantage in BC |
| 20:22.11 | Neffi | One of the patches added a new revamped AB map. The change was that the water on only the alliance side was frozen over. |
| 20:22.27 | Neffi | Faster time to nodes for them |
| 20:22.32 | TGiFallen | well that was (imo) to balance it, horde side can get to the flag at BS much quicker |
| 20:22.47 | Neffi | Not if alliance take the correct path |
| 20:22.51 | Neffi | AB is a perfect mirror |
| 20:23.01 | TGiFallen | not only is the flag closer to horde spawn, but hte bridge isn't symettrical |
| 20:23.04 | TGiFallen | lol not it isn't Neffi |
| 20:23.09 | Neffi | Yes it is |
| 20:23.28 | Neffi | It takes the same amount of time for alliance to reach the BS flag |
| 20:23.38 | TGiFallen | http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071104180941/wowwiki/images/d/df/WorldMap-ArathiBasin.jpg |
| 20:23.55 | Neffi | I'm aware of the AB map |
| 20:24.04 | Neffi | I started PvPing when AB was first released |
| 20:24.07 | TGiFallen | so look at that, on the horde side theere is a cross roads, take right and go to blacksmith, take left go to LM, go back and get to farm |
| 20:24.29 | TGiFallen | the alliance side, run way past mines to get to BS, if you want to get to mines quickly you lose a large chunk of health to fall damage |
| 20:24.32 | Neffi | Alliance have the same crossroads for mines and BS. |
| 20:24.40 | kd3 | slowfall |
| 20:24.49 | TGiFallen | not all classes have the benefit of slow fall kd3 |
| 20:25.08 | kd3 | groups typically have a mage or a priest who can supply the buff to the team |
| 20:25.15 | Neffi | The distance to any given middle node is the same |
| 20:25.21 | Neffi | Take the correct path |
| 20:25.25 | TGiFallen | that's assuming people are competent, a fari assumption in RBGs |
| 20:25.37 | Primer | rasta fari? |
| 20:25.38 | TGiFallen | prove to me it's the same path Neffi, because it isn't if you take the roads |
| 20:25.39 | Neffi | Incompetence is not an excuse for giving one side an advantage |
| 20:25.47 | Neffi | Don't take the roads |
| 20:25.49 | Neffi | Run on grass |
| 20:26.06 | TGiFallen | a tiny optimization that is trivial, and makes no difference in the end |
| 20:26.11 | Neffi | I've done the proof before, back when the forums used to be filled with people bitching about it |
| 20:26.23 | TGiFallen | the only way alliance can make it to BS slightly behind horde is to have a dk give water walking |
| 20:26.28 | Neffi | Freezing the lake is not a tiny optimization |
| 20:26.31 | Neffi | It's a massive imbalance |
| 20:26.41 | Neffi | It turns a mirrored map into a heavily one-sided map |
| 20:26.41 | TGiFallen | if you've done the proofs then you shouldn't have an issue linking me to them then :) |
| 20:26.56 | Primer | Alliance with DKs reached BS faster too |
| 20:27.00 | Neffi | If I were willing to dig up a post from 6 years ago on the forums, it'd be gone anyway |
| 20:27.33 | TGiFallen | Primer, on my dk i make a beeline for the water and up the side incline to BS, every single time a horde has been there before I |
| 20:28.08 | TGiFallen | and once again Neffi, the map isn't mirrored, that would make it perfectly symmetrical. which it isn't |
| 20:28.26 | Neffi | I've got plenty of experience leading BG teams, going back way before RBGs were in place. AB was always my favorite map, whether I played ally or horde. |
| 20:28.26 | Primer | TGiFallen: That's not been my experience |
| 20:28.33 | Neffi | I know the map very damned well |
| 20:29.19 | TGiFallen | that's odd primer, dunno it might be engineer glider stuff, all of our debates come from anecdotal evidence |
| 20:29.31 | TGiFallen | and what does that prove Neffi? |
| 20:29.41 | xyphoid | but does this make up for the totally unfair gnome vs tauren silhouette difference |
| 20:29.45 | Neffi | It proves no more than you have, I suppose |
| 20:29.46 | xyphoid | i demand visual normalisation |
| 20:29.58 | TGiFallen | lol xyphoid |
| 20:30.27 | TGiFallen | exactly Neffi, both of us are pretty entrenched in our opinions, and neither of us are going to persuade the other to change it |
| 20:30.29 | Amarande | I was never a fan of AB |
| 20:30.39 | Amarande | mostly because I tended to find it meant Always Boring |
| 20:31.03 | Neffi | I've done timed runs from starting points. That proof is the reason I have a strong opinion. |
| 20:31.10 | Amarande | it usually worked like this ... Spawn in, try to find the action (since you know you can't go looking for a control point on your own, you know there's a stealthed rogue there waiting for you with a dagger with your name on it, usually ...) |
| 20:31.33 | TGiFallen | I love AB, even as Alliance I have loved it, but in my experience of playing it since Vanilla, the horde, about 75-85% of hte time control the BS, and from what I see is that they are making it there first and not giving it up at all |
| 20:31.40 | Amarande | Ride towards the action. Reach the action only to find it's now on its way on to the next control point. Rinse and repeat, until you get ganked by a rogue at some point as you lag behind the rest of your team. |
| 20:31.42 | Neffi | Maybe 4 solid years of leading teams through AB on both factions has reinforced my opinion that no team has an advantage |
| 20:31.50 | Amarande | Respawn. Find the action is now all the way across the damn battleground ... |
| 20:32.07 | TGiFallen | just because you have done something for a long times doesn't make you any good at it |
| 20:32.12 | Neffi | In my experience, the alliance don't try to get BS >75% of the time |
| 20:32.16 | TGiFallen | I have driven a car for many years... doesn't make me a racecar driver |
| 20:32.29 | Neffi | They rush LM and it becomes a choke point where the whole team gets held up in a battle, while the horde are free to easy-tap the rest |
| 20:32.29 | Amarande | AB doesn't seem like it really *can* have an advantage to either side, though |
| 20:32.38 | Amarande | nor WSG, it's just a basic CTF |
| 20:33.07 | Amarande | AV I can see being inherently unequal, since the bases are totally different on each end |
| 20:33.13 | TGiFallen | well Amarande, for AB to be irrefutably balanced, it would have to be perfectly symmetrical, which wouldn't be fun |
| 20:33.20 | Amarande | EOTS again looks too balanced in architecture to provide an advantage to either side |
| 20:33.43 | Neffi | It's effectively symmterical. |
| 20:33.48 | Neffi | Same distance to flag |
| 20:33.50 | Amarande | Strand of the Ancients was imbalanced for other reasons, mainly the fact that Alliance always got to go first |
| 20:34.07 | Neffi | Choke points on bases are mirrored on each side, so holding it is the same regardless of who controls it |
| 20:34.08 | Amarande | A particular achievement there was actually, essentially, impossible as Horde for a long while |
| 20:34.17 | xyphoid | the thing is that arguing balance based on distance to flags is a rabbithole that you will never emerge from because you also have micro terrain differences, visual distractions from different directions, shiny things that attract bad players, etc etc |
| 20:34.26 | TGiFallen | no it isn't Neffi, it's either symettrical or it isn't, it's not "almost symmetrical" because that would insinuate there is some variance in sides, and therefore asymmetrical |
| 20:34.31 | Amarande | I don't think I've actually played any of the BGs that came out after SotA |
| 20:34.35 | xyphoid | so there are thousands of factors |
| 20:34.53 | Neffi | Variations that are aesthetic, not functional |
| 20:35.01 | Neffi | People's attraction to shiny things is their fault |
| 20:35.03 | Amarande | unless you count WG, but that (and TB) are more a matter of holder/defender than fixed factional balance |
| 20:35.23 | Neffi | You can make an argument that bad people played alliance because they have prettier races, so the whole game is imbalanced |
| 20:35.26 | TGiFallen | what are you talking about Neffi, the variations are clear, they are both aesthetic and functional |
| 20:35.28 | Neffi | And that actually was true during vanilla |
| 20:35.39 | Amarande | And TB is pretty damn well known to be horribly mis-designed :P |
| 20:35.42 | TGiFallen | and with that statement you lost any credibility |
| 20:35.48 | Neffi | It didn't mean there was inherent imbalance in the game. It meant people were inherently bad or good. |
| 20:35.51 | TGiFallen | most of hte top raid guilds in Vanilla were alliance Neffi |
| 20:36.02 | Semlar | wait are you seriously arguing that the horde has an advantage in AB |
| 20:36.06 | Neffi | And most of the top PvP guilds were horde |
| 20:36.17 | TGiFallen | not really semlar |
| 20:36.35 | Amarande | TGiFallen: I'm sometimes surprised that Alliance domination of raids hasn't steadily persisted throughout the history of the game |
| 20:36.44 | Semlar | almost every AB i've done the alliance goes for the lumber mill anyway |
| 20:36.45 | Neffi | Does anyone have an updated win ratio chart for BGs? |
| 20:36.50 | Amarande | and that it hasn't gotten MORE significant rather than less, over the years :S |
| 20:36.50 | xyphoid | i love that in the year 2013 people are still arguing over vanilla AB |
| 20:36.56 | TGiFallen | lol you just opened a whole new box amarande |
| 20:36.59 | Neffi | Because every one I've seen, each side was balanced to within a margin of error on WSG and AB |
| 20:37.20 | Amarande | TGiFallen: mostly I'm thinking of the rep bonus accruing to humans, and how ever since AQ40 there's been an ever increasing passel of gear that is tied to rep |
| 20:37.28 | Neffi | Vanilla AB is still the best BG, xyphoid ={ |
| 20:37.30 | Neffi | =P* |
| 20:37.32 | TGiFallen | Neffi if you want to use Oqueue as a metric, horde win every BG more than 60% of the time excvept for AV and EoTS |
| 20:37.37 | TGiFallen | wiat not eye |
| 20:37.40 | TGiFallen | the 40 man wrath BG |
| 20:37.42 | Semlar | they take the lumber mill, then they take the farm, and they take the mine, so the horde is left with the black smith and the stables |
| 20:37.44 | Amarande | you'd think world firsts would be universally Alliance, because human players can get that critical initial leg up on gear 10% faster |
| 20:37.52 | AcidWeb | Neffi: As i seen REFlex databases on many users - Most oscillate near 50% |
| 20:37.55 | Neffi | TGiFallen: You mean YOUR teams win/lose 60% of the time? |
| 20:38.05 | TGiFallen | no, i mean all of the 50k + OQ users |
| 20:38.22 | Neffi | Hmm, every BG |
| 20:38.30 | TGiFallen | except the 40 man ones |
| 20:38.41 | TGiFallen | gimme a sec i'll go get a screen cap |
| 20:38.45 | Semlar | so what you're saying is horde is clearly the superior race |
| 20:38.49 | TGiFallen | ^ |
| 20:38.50 | Neffi | I think I remember saying something about more pvpers going Horde early in the game |
| 20:38.59 | Amarande | As for the Horde disadvantage in early Cata, that's simple |
| 20:39.07 | TGiFallen | amarande, 90% of hte top raid guilds are horde because of hte racials |
| 20:39.26 | Amarande | There was a bug throughout the Vashj'ir zone at Cata launch where every quest that was supposed to grant Earthen Ring rep failed to do so for Horde players |
| 20:39.36 | Semlar | racials? |
| 20:39.41 | TGiFallen | that's not one i'm going to argue about, it's been stated in interviews by many of the worlds best raiders that they are horde because racials |
| 20:39.42 | xyphoid | never change, amarande |
| 20:39.50 | Semlar | they're horde because horde is cooler |
| 20:39.59 | Amarande | There aren't all that many great pieces of gear from ER, mind you, but I'm sure that it made it a little bit harder on Horde when people were first going to heroics |
| 20:40.11 | Amarande | and Cata heroics were pretty hard at launch as it was |
| 20:40.18 | TGiFallen | Midwinter is the only alliance guild in the west that is in the top 10 guilds for progression |
| 20:40.32 | Amarande | I actually think some of them might have been harder than BC heroics |
| 20:40.47 | TGiFallen | in an interview with midwinter, the entire guild contemplated switching to horde for mop because of the power of hte horde racials, but decided against it |
| 20:41.00 | Amarande | but I'm not 100% sure because I think BC heroics have been nerfed since launch, in addition to the fact that most folks in queue at 70-75 have better gear now |
| 20:41.06 | Semlar | i admire their dedication to struggle along without the horde racials |
| 20:41.08 | Semlar | i mean |
| 20:41.13 | Semlar | it must just be so difficult for them |
| 20:41.25 | TGiFallen | yeah me too, sarcasm aside |
| 20:42.09 | TGiFallen | in another interview with method (IIRC) they said that while the horde racials aren't the massively imbalanced things that some say they are, they do go on to state that they would not play without the racials |
| 20:42.28 | Semlar | you know how much of a difference your racial makes on any given fight? |
| 20:42.41 | Amarande | hm what DID you get from earthen ring |
| 20:43.04 | TGiFallen | a tiny amount Semlar, but still enough for hte top raiding guilds in the world to make use of them |
| 20:43.04 | Amarande | not much, but there seem to be a few spirit pieces. I'm not sure how much of a difference they may or may not have made |
| 20:43.26 | Amarande | although I do remember that healer mana tended to be one of the biggest sticking points when I tried even reg 85's around cata launch |
| 20:43.50 | TGiFallen | well, some racials do make a huge difference, for example the troll 5% beast damage racial. It made trolls the highest dps race on 1/3rd of all ToT bosses simply because their racial buffed their dps by 5% |
| 20:44.31 | Semlar | it did not buff their damage by 5% on any boss |
| 20:44.46 | Semlar | maybe tortos |
| 20:44.51 | TGiFallen | why not? |
| 20:44.59 | Semlar | because you aren't fighting beasts the entire time |
| 20:45.12 | TGiFallen | that's why i said 1/3rd |
| 20:45.22 | Amarande | I remember when MoP was coming out that I thought the Panda racial would prove the most imba |
| 20:45.44 | Amarande | with the double buffs from food |
| 20:45.45 | TGiFallen | tortos, horridon, megaera, ji-kun and primordius |
| 20:46.11 | Semlar | horridon has a shitton of adds you're fighting the whole time that aren't beasts |
| 20:46.36 | Amarande | But yeah, every raid has their own little foible |
| 20:47.00 | TGiFallen | that doesn't matter Semlar, you still switch to Horridon to burn him at the end of the fight, thus doing damage to a beast, thus buffing your dps by 5% |
| 20:47.04 | Semlar | i honestly don't even know if bosses can have that attribute |
| 20:47.13 | Semlar | tortos is not marked as a beast on wowhead |
| 20:47.31 | Amarande | and tbh, the Alliance races have some pretty good racials, too |
| 20:47.40 | TGiFallen | tortos most definately is a beast, primordius isn't |
| 20:47.47 | TGiFallen | http://www.wowhead.com/search?q=tortos#npcs |
| 20:47.54 | TGiFallen | it says beast right there |
| 20:47.57 | Amarande | Dwarves have a nice tanking CD, Night Elves have that permanent avoidance bonus (which is why I'm thinking if I make a tank monk, it WILL be a nelf) |
| 20:48.29 | Semlar | i don't know, i played with a troll hunter all through ToT and never really noticed a difference in our dps |
| 20:48.32 | Amarande | Humans get to gear up faster in the initial go round, especially now with MoP having even valor gear be dependent on rep |
| 20:48.40 | TGiFallen | Nelfs, mathematically are the best tank race in the game, Pandaren are the best tank race for horde, and the best dps race for both factions for a number of classes |
| 20:48.44 | Amarande | and humans also have that spirit buff which has got to make for superior healers |
| 20:49.03 | TGiFallen | humans spirit is nice, the pvp trinket is really powerful in pvp |
| 20:49.19 | Amarande | Draenei get that hit buff that means they can put that many more points into other stats instead of needing them for hitcap |
| 20:49.23 | Semlar | i would love to have a pvp trinket racial in pve |
| 20:49.24 | TGiFallen | but Trolls berserking + troll 5% damage + troll health regen + troll 35% tenacity is OP |
| 20:49.24 | Amarande | and then there's the crit bonus for worgen |
| 20:49.41 | Semlar | haha troll health regen |
| 20:49.43 | Amarande | Gnomes kind of suck, though, but ... they're gnomes :P |
| 20:49.57 | TGiFallen | the 1% hit is only a difference of 330 points |
| 20:50.08 | TGiFallen | for both hit and crit |
| 20:50.14 | Amarande | which can go to crit or haste instead, then |
| 20:50.40 | TGiFallen | yeah, but it's nothing compared to troll berserking, or horde blood rage (forget the name ATM) |
| 20:50.50 | Semlar | do trolls really still have that regen racial |
| 20:50.59 | Amarande | ... yup |
| 20:50.59 | TGiFallen | yes |
| 20:51.05 | Semlar | you know that's like 300 health over a 10 minute fight |
| 20:51.05 | TGiFallen | they have all those racials i listed |
| 20:51.13 | Semlar | it's such a fucking joke |
| 20:51.24 | TGiFallen | as trivial as it may seem, it still exists |
| 20:51.29 | Semlar | it's completely meaningless |
| 20:51.56 | TGiFallen | no it isn't, in the pure sense of the word, it can't be meaningless because it actually does something |
| 20:52.02 | Semlar | no |
| 20:52.03 | Semlar | it does nothing |
| 20:52.05 | Neffi | If we're talking from a PvP standpoint, a lot of racials are underestimated |
| 20:52.22 | TGiFallen | yeah i think we are more onto PVE now Neffi |
| 20:52.29 | Neffi | Shadowmeld can be clutch as a druid. You can pounce directly from it. |
| 20:52.33 | TGiFallen | ohh right and then there is the undead passive, touch of hte grave |
| 20:52.36 | Neffi | Bah. PvE. |
| 20:52.49 | Neffi | Have your fun, if that's what you call it |
| 20:52.53 | Amarande | Yeah, Touch of the Grave looks nice |
| 20:52.59 | Amarande | although I'm not exactly sure just *how* effective it really is |
| 20:53.05 | Amarande | (also, does it trigger on dot ticks or only actual hits?) |
| 20:53.06 | Neffi | It's miniscule at lvl 90 |
| 20:53.07 | TGiFallen | it's really strong |
| 20:53.11 | xyphoid | can we never use the phrase 'in the pure sense of the word' again |
| 20:53.13 | Neffi | But it's really nice at early levels |
| 20:53.13 | TGiFallen | dot ticks aswell ama |
| 20:53.39 | TGiFallen | yeah it is, on my undead rogue i would just throw shit at the mobs for like 9 damage, then touch would hit for 22 damage |
| 20:53.43 | Amarande | And speaking of blood fury, may the similarly named LOTRO skill never appear in WoW :P |
| 20:54.08 | Semlar | someone go figure out how much health you passively regenerate |
| 20:54.08 | Neffi | I think that's one of the poorly designed ones, tbh. Unless they fixed it, it's not a PPM proc. It's flat 20%. That leaves a huge gap between its usefulness for different classes. |
| 20:54.32 | Amarande | Neffi: you mean like "insanely OP for warlock" :) |
| 20:54.37 | Neffi | pretty much |
| 20:54.40 | Neffi | Or a mage with NT |
| 20:54.59 | TGiFallen | also Semlar, my out of combat regen is 7k per second, with the troll racial that would make my out of combat regen 7.7k per second, and it would make my incombat regen at 700 health per second |
| 20:55.06 | TGiFallen | actually, at 770 health per second |
| 20:55.23 | Amarande | TGiFallen, and enemies do how much DPS again? :) |
| 20:55.30 | Neffi | Yummmmm. Espresso. |
| 20:55.32 | Neffi | <3 caffeine |
| 20:55.44 | Semlar | so what is that, 0.01% of your health per second? |
| 20:56.05 | Neffi | !lua 770/360000*100 |
| 20:56.08 | TGiFallen | sooo across a 10 minute fight (for round number sake) that would be about 462,000 health regened in the fight |
| 20:56.26 | Neffi | Which sounds like way more than it is |
| 20:56.36 | Semlar | and also not how you would measure the usefulness of a heal |
| 20:56.37 | TGiFallen | well that's assuming you were never at 100% health |
| 20:56.57 | Semlar | i don't use spirit bond which is 3% of your health every 2 seconds because it's worthless in a raid |
| 20:56.58 | Neffi | I don't think anyone ever rolled troll because of that racial |
| 20:57.00 | TGiFallen | explain what you mean semlar |
| 20:57.00 | Neffi | If they did, poor them |
| 20:57.10 | Semlar | have you ever played a healer before? |
| 20:57.11 | Amarande | mind you, here's one thing that occurs to me about troll and undead racials |
| 20:57.19 | Amarande | do the troll's passive heal and the undead touch thing draw threat? |
| 20:57.25 | Semlar | passive regen that small literally would make no difference in a raid situation |
| 20:57.26 | TGiFallen | Neffi, it's not JUST that, it's because the other 4 really strong racials |
| 20:57.26 | Neffi | Troll: no |
| 20:57.31 | Neffi | Undead: yess |
| 20:57.53 | Neffi | Undead's is an actual heal, so unless it's a special case it will. Troll's is only passive regen, something that doesn't gen threat by definition |
| 20:57.59 | TGiFallen | yes i have healer semlar, no it makes no noticeable difference, but by the very fact of it's existance, it therefore does make a difference |
| 20:58.01 | Amarande | although threat barely matters at all nowadays, since they pretty much changed tanking to be all about staying alive and only fairly minorly about holding threat |
| 20:58.09 | Semlar | no, it makes no difference |
| 20:58.19 | TGiFallen | amarande, they do a lot of aoe raid damage, norushen for instance does 100k damage to every player every 3k seconds |
| 20:58.32 | TGiFallen | yes, it does Semlar, if it made no difference it wouldn't exist |
| 20:58.48 | Semlar | if you didn't have the racial you would be in exactly the same situation as you were before |
| 20:58.52 | Neffi | Assuming best case scenario, the difference it makes is often equivalent to a single hard-cast heal -- and you're comparing it to the full fight duration. Its effective impact is nil. |
| 20:59.13 | Semlar | if it healed you for 400k when you were about to die, THAT would make a difference |
| 20:59.25 | Neffi | Amarande: Which made me give up my ambition of actually getting into PvE as a tank |
| 20:59.27 | Semlar | healing you for even a couple thousand health per second would make ZERO difference on a fight |
| 20:59.30 | Amarande | Yeah. It might save your bacon in the occasional off circumstance, but then again, any of those odd little 1% elemental mit racials scattered about the races could, too. |
| 20:59.35 | Neffi | I miss the days when a tank's job was about controlling the situation |
| 20:59.37 | TGiFallen | that would make a massive, noticable difference neffi |
| 20:59.41 | Neffi | And I'll never touch PvE again because of that |
| 21:00.00 | TGiFallen | it does make, a tiny difference because of it's existance |
| 21:00.16 | Semlar | IT WOULD HAVE TO AFFECT THE OUTCOME TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE |
| 21:00.17 | Neffi | And that difference is easily lost within margin of errors and margin of latency |
| 21:00.18 | Amarande | Neffi: you still do have to be sure to grab adds, though |
| 21:00.19 | Neffi | So no |
| 21:00.36 | TGiFallen | but it does affect the outcome in those world first heroic boss kills |
| 21:00.37 | Neffi | Amarande: Yeah, but tanking doesn't feel at all compelling anymore. |
| 21:00.45 | Neffi | I don't feel like WoW's PvE is fun anymore. |
| 21:00.52 | TGiFallen | no difference to the average layman |
| 21:00.53 | Amarande | so mostly you stay alive and pay attention to the battlefield and don't have to worry so much about "did that idiot/overgeared dps pull again?" |
| 21:00.55 | Neffi | But then again I only ever felt like tanking was fun. |
| 21:01.25 | Semlar | you fucking overheal thousands of times more than that passive heal would ever heal for |
| 21:01.26 | Amarande | I'm guessing the threat mechanic is really the only way, unless they do a severe and complete gear redo |
| 21:01.44 | Neffi | I don't think they need to worry about tht |
| 21:01.44 | Semlar | it doesn't make a difference on a heroic world first |
| 21:01.55 | Amarande | otherwise, you're going to constantly have problems that, well, would probably make the tank shortage EVEN WORSE than it already is |
| 21:01.56 | Semlar | there is no fight where it would even be noticed |
| 21:02.02 | Neffi | I think it's a DPS's job to know what the hell they're doing. That change made playing a DPS even less fun than it always was. |
| 21:02.26 | TGiFallen | yes it does Semlar, on those world first it always ends with all the healers being oom, and the dps kiting/popping defensives to kill the boss |
| 21:02.27 | Amarande | newer tanks would be continually turned off from the role even more than is often already the case, because the gear differential between them and experienced DPS in random groups would be ruinous |
| 21:02.47 | TGiFallen | and if the troll hunter can still regen health even when the healers are dead, then it makes a huuuge difference |
| 21:03.01 | Semlar | aside from that when was the last time you saw a troll tank |
| 21:03.23 | TGiFallen | uhh, all the time, I rolled a troll monk tank |
| 21:03.29 | Neffi | Gear inflation and WoW's aspirations to "big numbers" is the problem |
| 21:03.36 | TGiFallen | and besides that, i wasn't even talking about the racial from a tank p[erspective |
| 21:03.42 | Neffi | The game is inherently balanced around people being idiots |
| 21:04.03 | Neffi | I never said the change wasn't good for the game. I said the game wasn't fun to begin with, and that sucked even more fun out. |
| 21:04.06 | Neffi | (PvE wise) |
| 21:04.15 | Amarande | TGiFallen: Well, world firsts are also usually done with almost insanely razor-thin gearing margins |
| 21:04.40 | Amarande | Most of the time, as I understand it, world first guild members down bosses with gear that you wouldn't even get accepted to a normal raiding guild with |
| 21:04.52 | TGiFallen | You are absolutely correct Amarande, and because of that fact, it makes those racials that much stronger |
| 21:05.34 | *** join/#wowuidev Matax (Matax@75-119-229-138.dsl.teksavvy.com) |
| 21:05.41 | Amarande | I haven't seen a troll tank in a while, but that's mostly because it's been a really long time since I've even played Horde at all |
| 21:05.48 | TGiFallen | ohh my bad, the troll voodoo shuffle is only a 15% tenacity |
| 21:06.10 | Amarande | ... and it seems unlikely to change now either, especially since the friends I'm most planning on joining up with as I resub are once again Alliance heh |
| 21:06.22 | Neffi | I'd take 15% tenacity over 10% passive combat regen tbh (if I had to) |
| 21:06.23 | TGiFallen | well a lot of tanks go tauren because stam buff |
| 21:06.29 | TGiFallen | Neffi, as a troll you get both |
| 21:06.33 | Neffi | I know |
| 21:06.47 | Neffi | I think 15% tenacity is bigger than some shitty combat regen |
| 21:06.56 | TGiFallen | you get both of those, a mini heroism, 5% increased damage on beasts and 1% expertise with bows |
| 21:07.06 | Amarande | Neffi: the relative ease of WoW content may not be that bad of a thing, but it depends on the game you're comparing to |
| 21:07.27 | Amarande | It certainly serves WoW better than LOTRO's balance serves that game. I joined LOTRO as a pretty experienced WoW'er, figured the six-mans would be similar in difficulty to WoW five-mans |
| 21:07.27 | Neffi | I think it's a fallacy to compare games to one another |
| 21:07.33 | Neffi | Games should stand well on their own merit |
| 21:07.42 | Amarande | ... nope. LOTRO six-mans will chew you up and spit you out, WoW raids are frequently easier |
| 21:07.42 | TGiFallen | ^ 100% agree |
| 21:07.52 | TGiFallen | err, i agree with Neffi |
| 21:07.54 | Semlar | we must do something about the fucking overabundance of trolls we have because of their overpowered racials |
| 21:08.09 | Neffi | Except in the case of Rift. Fuck Rift. |
| 21:08.10 | TGiFallen | perhaps... we should stop feeding them |
| 21:08.24 | kd3 | hm. a good firefighter name: http://i.imgur.com/5u2TVgX.jpg |
| 21:08.39 | Neffi | It used to be that WoW's 5 mans could chew you up too |
| 21:08.43 | Maldivia | kd3: lol |
| 21:08.45 | Neffi | Does nobody remember early vanilla? |
| 21:08.50 | Matax | Yes |
| 21:08.53 | Semlar | no |
| 21:08.59 | Neffi | If LOTRO had reached the critical mass of WoW, it probably would have gone the same qway |
| 21:09.00 | kd3 | 5-mans? hell. I remember wiping in raids in strat |
| 21:09.11 | Primer | I understand that some class changes have happened since 5.4 was released. Are these changes merged into the official patch notes, or is there some separate list for them? |
| 21:09.12 | Amarande | TGiFallen: [Great Pandaren Feast] -> Races: Blood Elf, Orc, Pandaren, Undead, Goblin, Tauren, Night Elf, Gnome, Dwarf, Human, Worgen, Draenei? :D |
| 21:09.16 | Neffi | "Raids in strat" brought wonderful memories back |
| 21:09.26 | Fisker | not really |
| 21:09.35 | Fisker | but not as horrible memories as raids in scholomance |
| 21:09.37 | Maldivia | wouldn't exactly call them wonderful :) |
| 21:09.43 | TGiFallen | what does that mean amarande? |
| 21:09.47 | Matax | i remeber UBRS raids :D |
| 21:09.56 | Fisker | UBRS wasn't bad |
| 21:09.59 | Fisker | scholo was bad |
| 21:10.00 | Amarande | TGiFallen: food, listed as requiring any race but troll :) |
| 21:10.07 | Matax | i loved UBRS |
| 21:10.08 | kd3 | ubrs was fun. I always got to be the football |
| 21:10.11 | TGiFallen | ohh lawd |
| 21:10.28 | TGiFallen | and semlar, trolls are the second most played horde race, behind Belfs |
| 21:10.35 | Matax | i rember the hunter allways had to kite the final boss adds away :P |
| 21:10.38 | Maldivia | football? |
| 21:10.39 | TGiFallen | ohh that said tauren, not troll, my bad |
| 21:10.46 | Amarande | BTW, is it still best to bring your own food like when MoP launched, or did they change it back to how it was in Wrath and Cata where you're always better off mooching someone's feast than you are bringing your own food? |
| 21:10.47 | kd3 | hunter? I did it as a mage |
| 21:10.52 | Matax | LOL |
| 21:10.56 | Neffi | Matax: Oh yeah. I almost forgot that. |
| 21:10.58 | kd3 | maldivia, the first person to aggro the beast got punted across the room |
| 21:10.59 | Semlar | tauren don't even have racials |
| 21:11.06 | Maldivia | ahh yeah |
| 21:11.09 | Neffi | I played a hunter back then, and that was fun shit |
| 21:11.11 | TGiFallen | yeah, except for that stupid health buff |
| 21:11.13 | Maldivia | didn't associate it with football though :) |
| 21:11.20 | TGiFallen | and that nature resistance, and that herbalism thing |
| 21:11.27 | Amarande | Heh, I remember once on a hunter having one of my most epic moments ever in leveling content |
| 21:11.32 | Semlar | yeah that health buff used to actually not be complete garbage |
| 21:11.35 | TGiFallen | and that AOE stun, aside from those 4, they have no racials |
| 21:11.36 | kd3 | anyway, off to pick up folks from the airport |
| 21:12.04 | Amarande | We were in LBRS, and we had a catastrophically bad pull as a result of the usual bugaboo, someone getting feared at an inopportune moment whilst fighting trolls in the bluish room towards the bottom |
| 21:12.13 | TGiFallen | what did the health buff used to be semlar |
| 21:12.17 | TGiFallen | did it used to be 10% |
| 21:12.19 | Semlar | 5% of their total health |
| 21:12.29 | Amarande | Basically, the whole room pretty much chain pulled itself. Three players went down, the only ones left being a paladin (who was OOM, I think) and me, the hunter |
| 21:12.31 | Semlar | so you know, it would scale like most racials |
| 21:12.32 | Neffi | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtvIYRrgZ04 the days of this kind of shit made me smile |
| 21:12.37 | Amarande | Somehow, *somehow* I managed to clear that whole room without dying myself |
| 21:12.38 | Matax | Rember having to pop fire resist potions like they were extacy tablets |
| 21:12.45 | Amarande | And I didn't even have a tenacity pet at the time, to boot |
| 21:12.46 | Semlar | now it's 5% of your base health which, again, is almost worthless |
| 21:13.10 | TGiFallen | uhh, i think you are reading it wrong |
| 21:13.16 | Amarande | just by relentlessly taking things out, refusing to give up, using FD and Mend Pet at just the right times |
| 21:13.42 | Matax | 2 words Suppresion Room |
| 21:13.43 | TGiFallen | Base Health increased by 5%, i think it's that way so trinkets (battle master trinkets) and other similar health buffs don't benefit from the racial aswell |
| 21:13.47 | Amarande | I think I made hunters' reputation grow a few orders of magnitude that afternoon :) |
| 21:14.09 | Semlar | base health increased by 5% means whatever your base health is at 90 is increased by 5% |
| 21:14.15 | Semlar | meaning it scales with NOTHING but your level |
| 21:14.46 | TGiFallen | aww that's kind of shitty |
| 21:14.51 | Semlar | KIND OF? |
| 21:14.56 | Neffi | lol |
| 21:14.57 | Neffi | ^ |
| 21:14.59 | Neffi | err |
| 21:15.01 | Amarande | But then, that would be hunters for you. Bad hunters are pretty much the most hair-pulling players you can deal with, good ones are perhaps the best DPS allies you can have |
| 21:15.19 | Semlar | with gear scaling like crazy it makes so little difference |
| 21:15.23 | Matax | Remeber when humans had perception that was a thing |
| 21:15.42 | TGiFallen | yeah Semlar at 90 for warriors it increases health by 7.33k |
| 21:15.47 | Neffi | Remember when undeads were undead |
| 21:15.53 | Neffi | >_> |
| 21:16.04 | Matax | lol Exorcism on undead |
| 21:16.10 | Amarande | Forsaken used to be specifically vulnerable to effects that targeted undead? |
| 21:16.11 | TGiFallen | lol track undead |
| 21:16.13 | Semlar | that's factoring in whatever bonuses warriors have |
| 21:16.19 | TGiFallen | yes ama |
| 21:16.24 | Neffi | Amarande: Yes. They were originally undead, not humanoid. |
| 21:16.24 | Amarande | Hah |
| 21:16.34 | TGiFallen | they don't have any bonuses semlar |
| 21:16.38 | Amarande | That seems almost as insane as if they allowed cat and bear druids to be tamed by hunters :) |
| 21:16.39 | Neffi | It also made them immune to some CCs |
| 21:16.47 | TGiFallen | yeah |
| 21:16.49 | TGiFallen | like charms IIRC |
| 21:16.50 | Neffi | And back then, each class had their own PvP trinket that only removed certain effects |
| 21:17.04 | Amarande | "I'm sorry guys ... we won't be raiding tonight, Grognak got waylaid by a PvP hunter and got tamed so we're short a tank ..." |
| 21:17.06 | TGiFallen | except pallys, because bubble hearth fuck you |
| 21:17.26 | *** join/#wowuidev harl (harl@dslb-092-072-207-203.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 21:17.57 | Amarande | I guess that's a more fun reason not to be able to raid than, say, TOR players suffered this week though |
| 21:18.14 | Semlar | also i don't know if you've ever played a tauren but the only thing war stomp has ever been used for is to interrupt something that happens to be stunnable if you aren't under attack |
| 21:18.25 | Amarande | in fact, that's why I'm back to WoW, because I was playing TOR only to find BioWare screwed the whole thing up to the point that I decided it wasn't worth the trouble to get the game running again |
| 21:18.45 | Amarande | I'm just glad I wasn't a raider in TOR, because a lot of raids were ruined this week because of said screw up too |
| 21:18.53 | Semlar | if you're currently tanking anything you can't actually use war stomp because it suffers from pushback and while you're casting it you can't avoid anything |
| 21:19.06 | Neffi | Semlar: A lot of druids and hunters used to pick Tauren for PvP because that stun could be clutch |
| 21:19.10 | Semlar | this makes it pretty much usable in pvp |
| 21:19.16 | Thunder_Child | Gnarfoz: Shit, we said something. |
| 21:19.19 | Neffi | But that was back when hunters and druids badly needed the extra stun |
| 21:19.30 | Semlar | it also shifted you out of whatever form you were in |
| 21:19.33 | Semlar | so that was nice |
| 21:19.37 | Matax | 1 thing that always made me laugh was the jumping eye beam fromC'thun that would hit the last person for upwards of 10 million damage |
| 21:19.49 | Neffi | War stomp -> heal -> travel form -> lol g'bye |
| 21:19.54 | Semlar | i think they recently fixed it so druids could actually cast war stomp in their forms though |
| 21:19.55 | TGiFallen | Warstomp is crazily useful in pvp |
| 21:20.02 | Neffi | They fixed that a while ago |
| 21:20.04 | Semlar | it's not as crazily useful as you seem to think it is |
| 21:20.07 | Gnarfoz | Thunder_Child: looking at the userlist, I can see what you mean. Thankfully, I've got him on ignore ;] |
| 21:20.21 | Amarande | Ah, WoW ... introducing damage figures to the RPG world that were otherwise only seen in Nippon Ichi SRPGs before then :D |
| 21:20.22 | Neffi | Back when most classes had a lot less control-centric abilities, it was |
| 21:20.24 | Neffi | Like, vanilla |
| 21:20.28 | Semlar | it's situationally useful |
| 21:20.38 | Neffi | It was a lot more useful for hunters, because they were useless in melee and deadzone |
| 21:20.42 | foxlit | would it kill them to make the Fishing ability change into a "Reel in" button? |
| 21:20.44 | Semlar | i can't believe it's not instant cast |
| 21:20.45 | Neffi | And had shit tools for getting back out |
| 21:20.49 | Neffi | Nor can I |
| 21:20.53 | Semlar | i think it used to be..? |
| 21:20.57 | Semlar | a very long time ago |
| 21:21.05 | Neffi | I don't remember it being, but I cant say for sure |
| 21:21.13 | Semlar | it would have had to have been before bc |
| 21:21.44 | TGiFallen | I play Tauren for pvp occasionally, I know exactly how useful it is Semlar |
| 21:21.47 | Amarande | Yeah, dead zone is not something I miss. :) |
| 21:21.59 | Amarande | I don't really miss the ability to equip melee weapons on hunters either, for the most part |
| 21:22.04 | Neffi | TBH I do miss the deadzone |
| 21:22.12 | Neffi | It added a lot of complexity to the class that I enjoyed |
| 21:22.17 | Amarande | well ... apart from the fact that it still makes hunters a little weaker when leveling if you're the twinker sort, I suppose |
| 21:22.22 | Neffi | Not just the melee zone, but the actual DEAD zone between 5 and 8 yards |
| 21:22.36 | Amarande | since melee classes can get a useful stat enchant on their weapon, but hunters are limited to what you can get on scopes, which isn't all that much till highish levels |
| 21:22.52 | Amarande | unless the top scopes scale down usefully on heirlooms now, anyway |
| 21:23.05 | Neffi | Yeah I figured they would retroactively remove scopes and change melee enchants to also apply to bows |
| 21:23.09 | Neffi | WHICH THEY SHOULD STILL DO |
| 21:23.09 | TGiFallen | they scale, ama |
| 21:23.11 | Neffi | DAMMIT |
| 21:23.27 | foxlit | also letting you target the fishing cast would be swell. |
| 21:23.27 | Neffi | Do all enchants scale down now? |
| 21:23.32 | Amarande | And I'm still not quite sure if wands can be enchanted at all, or if they just plain suck |
| 21:23.36 | Amarande | Neffi: only on heirlooms |
| 21:23.41 | Neffi | Fucking awesome |
| 21:23.43 | Neffi | Leveling a new mage |
| 21:24.09 | Neffi | I was about to replace all the high level enchants on these heirlooms |
| 21:24.16 | Amarande | Mind you, I loved how the last couple months of Cata allowed you to snag a raid-grade wand super easily |
| 21:24.56 | Amarande | And since they'd become mainhand, it was nice if you'd recently hit 85 on a caster at the time |
| 21:25.05 | TGiFallen | Neffi, levelling a mage is so OP it's boring almost |
| 21:25.11 | Amarande | I'm not actually sure I've even *seen* wands in MoP |
| 21:25.19 | TGiFallen | you have |
| 21:25.21 | Amarande | I wonder if they've been phased out of the game after level 85 |
| 21:25.27 | TGiFallen | in Scholomance, two drop |
| 21:25.30 | Semlar | draenei get a 20% on demand heal? |
| 21:25.31 | Amarande | TGiFallen: do they take scopes, regular enchants, or nothing? |
| 21:25.45 | TGiFallen | that, i do not know for nobody uses them |
| 21:25.53 | Neffi | TGiFallen: I like leveling mages in particular with heirlooms because they're the type of class that you can push to limits |
| 21:26.02 | Amarande | also I wonder if jade what's its name enchant has got reasonably priced now on my servers |
| 21:26.04 | Neffi | Like going into a camp with 15 enemies and leveling the whole thing |
| 21:26.15 | Neffi | Mages are fun as fuck to level and only get more fun as you get better |
| 21:26.24 | TGiFallen | lol Neffi all you do is run into camp, pet freeze Arcane explosion |
| 21:26.31 | Amarande | I used to settle for Elemental Force on basically everyone, just because the proper "BiS" enchant was something like 8,000+g |
| 21:26.32 | TGiFallen | frost nova arcane explosion |
| 21:26.35 | TGiFallen | and then it's all dead |
| 21:26.41 | Neffi | Nah, I prefer to use my frost tools at my disposal |
| 21:26.46 | Semlar | evidently stoneform reduces damage taken by 10% |
| 21:26.49 | Neffi | I don't make it too easy on myself |
| 21:26.53 | Amarande | Light burn me if I'm spending 8k on an enchant unless it's an epic |
| 21:26.59 | Neffi | I tend to seek a challenge when playing games |
| 21:27.15 | Neffi | All my Skyrim saves are intentionally gimped in crucial ways to make it more fun |
| 21:27.37 | Amarande | heh, at one point I considered doing a KOTOR challenge run, but I'll leave that for later |
| 21:27.42 | Amarande | I do know what the terms of it will be, though |
| 21:28.14 | *** part/#wowuidev Matax (Matax@75-119-229-138.dsl.teksavvy.com) |
| 21:29.53 | Neffi | What level does LFD unlock? |
| 21:30.01 | Sharparam | is the curse packager having issues? |
| 21:30.12 | Sharparam | it's not even attempting to package, according to the log |
| 21:30.46 | Sharparam | http://wow.curseforge.com/addons/killtrack/repositories/mainline/packager/ |
| 21:30.49 | Amarande | No gear modding, must take as many non-Jedi levels as come to you on Taris, must do all the sidequests you can remember to do on Taris, must use the Scoundrel/Sentinel class combination, and must not equip a lightsaber |
| 21:30.52 | TGiFallen | 20 or 15 neffi |
| 21:31.05 | pumba | warr/monk like worst comp to play in arena 2s |
| 21:31.23 | Amarande | pumba: arenas have never managed to be balanced classwise, sadly |
| 21:31.27 | TGiFallen | i did warr monk with a buddy and we got to 1750 |
| 21:31.40 | TGiFallen | and arenas aren't balance for 2s |
| 21:31.50 | pumba | yeah |
| 21:31.58 | Amarande | even 5v5 has its issues |
| 21:32.01 | Semlar | the arenas aren't balanced for anything |
| 21:32.08 | Amarande | like certain classes being noticeably awesome/suck |
| 21:32.22 | TGiFallen | lol before soalr beam nerf 5 boomkins |
| 21:32.23 | Neffi | It's to be expected that certain comps are good and certain ones bad |
| 21:32.27 | Neffi | I don't think that's inbalance |
| 21:32.30 | Semlar | but more importantly didn't they remove like all rewards from 2s |
| 21:32.33 | Amarande | the biggest one being IIRC late BC where warlock fell so far down the suck hole that simply BRINGING a warlock to 5's was basically asking to lose |
| 21:32.42 | Semlar | what's the point of doing them |
| 21:32.47 | Neffi | I think it goes with each class having a niche, unique design/perspective, and synergizing naturally with complementing designs |
| 21:32.56 | Amarande | apparently, though, 3v3 seems to be their One True Arena |
| 21:32.59 | Neffi | Semlar: arena points |
| 21:33.08 | Semlar | conquest points? |
| 21:33.10 | Amarande | (at least, that's what the world championship circuit appears to be based on) |
| 21:33.12 | Neffi | People run them because it's a quick win-or-loss and you get points quick |
| 21:33.12 | Neffi | yeah |
| 21:33.26 | Semlar | ah but there's no point in doing it competitively right |
| 21:33.30 | Neffi | I think 3v3 is the sweet spot honestly |
| 21:33.40 | TGiFallen | because that's what Pvp is balanced for Neffi |
| 21:33.43 | Semlar | well, i guess if you put together some op combination |
| 21:33.43 | Neffi | Semlar: For the most part no |
| 21:34.01 | Neffi | But if I'm not looking to rank up and just want some quick fun, 2v2 is still fun with a good partner |
| 21:34.12 | Neffi | I honestly liked doing 2s even if I get trashed for having a bad comp |
| 21:34.27 | Amarande | in any case, classes can be good or bad on their own, but optimal PvP balance would be made such that for any class X, there should be partner classes Y and Z that produce a seriously competitive team |
| 21:34.34 | TGiFallen | what is hte worst 2's comp? |
| 21:34.41 | Neffi | TGiFallen: I mean I think 3v3 SHOULD be the balance point for arenas, because it's a great sweet spot for team size |
| 21:34.48 | Neffi | I think it's naturally where arenas belong |
| 21:34.51 | Semlar | i played a resto druid / feral druid 2s and it was about the worst comp ever |
| 21:35.02 | Semlar | but that was a couple years ago |
| 21:35.11 | TGiFallen | maybe 2 aff locks, |
| 21:35.18 | TGiFallen | that's be pretty teribad |
| 21:35.20 | Amarande | As it is, let's see what we got for team builds in the NA world championship competition last year |
| 21:35.25 | TGiFallen | or a boomy and a spriest |
| 21:36.06 | Amarande | Pally/DK/priest, hunter/rogue/pally, lock/DK/shammy, lock/mage/shammy, lock/priest/shammy, druid/mage/priest, hunter/DK/pally, and lock/rogue/shammy |
| 21:36.14 | Semlar | that really wouldn't be that bad considering cyclone and fear |
| 21:36.34 | Amarande | hunter/pally and lock/shammy seem to have been a little disproportionately OP, judging by that |
| 21:36.45 | Amarande | and warrior does not appear at all :S |
| 21:36.54 | Amarande | (nor monk, but MoP wasn't out yet then) |
| 21:37.06 | Neffi | Hunter pally teams used to be a bitch |
| 21:37.23 | Semlar | hunters aren't that great any more |
| 21:37.37 | Neffi | I havent played in a while =/ |
| 21:37.45 | Amarande | The complete lack of warrior suggests that that class is losing its steam even more than ever though |
| 21:37.45 | Neffi | Still figuring out if I'll continue |
| 21:37.51 | Semlar | they were recently nerfed |
| 21:38.05 | Amarande | And heh, maybe I'm glad I'm not in the competitive arena circuit anyway |
| 21:38.06 | Semlar | hunters were doing really high burst |
| 21:38.11 | Stanzilla | warriors are fucking OP in arena atm |
| 21:38.14 | Amarande | Seriously, you need to plan in a trip to China if you make the world finals? *blink* |
| 21:38.24 | Amarande | apparently you did last year, at least |
| 21:39.09 | Amarande | Stan: is there a class that's clearly become a tenth or eleventh wheel in its place, like warriors were in 2012? |
| 21:39.27 | Neffi | rogue *trollface* |
| 21:39.36 | Stanzilla | dunno |
| 21:39.40 | Stanzilla | shadow priest maybe |
| 21:40.14 | Amarande | hm, that wouldn't surprise me. or ellie shaman or balance druid at that |
| 21:40.19 | Stanzilla | most classes work pretty fine in pvp when used in the right comp |
| 21:40.36 | Amarande | I did notice on noxxic's "patchwerk" list that spriests, ellie shammies, and balance druids were all conspicuously near the bottom of the DPS totem pole |
| 21:40.52 | Neffi | I'm unpopular for claiming WoW's in a pretty good spot balance wise right now |
| 21:40.58 | Neffi | But I think it's true |
| 21:41.03 | Amarande | (which I have always pondered if it is a counter balance for the fact that those three builds are the only ones to bring the spell haste group buff) |
| 21:41.57 | Stanzilla | Neffi: depends on the space you are looking |
| 21:42.07 | TGiFallen | Ellie shamans were stupid OP in arenas before 5.4 |
| 21:42.11 | Stanzilla | player skill is the biggest factor for blizzard to deal with |
| 21:42.25 | TGiFallen | because of their passive and their mastery, they could literally kill you with one spellcast |
| 21:42.38 | Semlar | *reflect* |
| 21:42.47 | Amarande | I'm still not sure why ellie shamans are not as popular as it seems like they deserve to be |
| 21:42.57 | TGiFallen | Neffi how can you even say the game is balanced if you don't play |
| 21:43.05 | Neffi | I am playing right now |
| 21:43.12 | Amarande | I suppose part of it is that a lot of shamans go resto because healers get better queues and have an easier time finding raid spots |
| 21:43.18 | Neffi | I keep up with the changes for the most part, except 5.4 |
| 21:43.22 | Amarande | but for some reason dps shamans have always seemed to prefer enhancement rather than ellie |
| 21:43.28 | TGiFallen | yeah a reflect works... once, but when said shammy is in ascendance and lava burst is insta cast,, it doesnt matter |
| 21:43.44 | TGiFallen | because enhancement is better |
| 21:43.45 | Semlar | hey if they were going to kill me in one cast they should be dead now |
| 21:43.58 | Amarande | It's not Avada Kedavra, Semlar :) |
| 21:45.15 | Neffi | So to get this right: ALL enchants will scale with level on heirlooms? |
| 21:45.48 | TGiFallen | yes. |
| 21:46.00 | TGiFallen | they don't exactly scale gracefully however |
| 21:46.09 | *** join/#wowuidev Droolio (~drool@host86-134-62-24.range86-134.btcentralplus.com) |
| 21:46.40 | TGiFallen | like, every 5 levels or so they "re-scale", for example, at level 10 mage with windsong, the crit buff would buff your crit by 54 rating and give you 110% crit |
| 21:46.41 | Amarande | TGiFallen: still it's probably especially useful for hunters |
| 21:47.03 | Amarande | since all the decent scopes are high level, as they never went back and changed all the old scopes to make up for the fact that now you can't have an agi enchanted melee weapon alongside them anymore |
| 21:47.06 | Semlar | does player_login fire before the loading screen finishes |
| 21:47.09 | TGiFallen | but you get level 11, and it still only buffs your rating by 54, and will continue to only buff by 54 until about leve 22 ish |
| 21:47.14 | Neffi | Semlar: yes |
| 21:47.31 | Neffi | It fires before PLAYER_ENTERING_WORLD, which is the last thing before the loading screen disappears |
| 21:47.43 | Neffi | Or the first thing AFTER it disappears |
| 21:47.46 | Neffi | something like that |
| 21:47.52 | TGiFallen | i think it's after |
| 21:47.54 | Amarande | well, that sounds more like the fact that rating based stats are enormously OP at low levels |
| 21:47.56 | Neffi | (probably hardware dependent) |
| 21:48.04 | Semlar | does it fire just before it goes away or could it possibly be a while |
| 21:48.25 | Neffi | LOGIN should always fire before it goes away |
| 21:48.31 | TGiFallen | amarande, it has nothing to do with that, rating based stats work fine, its the wonky scaling of the enchants that don't |
| 21:48.34 | Neffi | You shouldn't be IN the game world at PLAYER_LOGIN |
| 21:48.50 | TGiFallen | aren't you limited to what you can do before the loading screen is gone though? |
| 21:49.00 | Neffi | Define limited |
| 21:49.08 | Neffi | Certain FrameXML stuff is not initialized until PEW |
| 21:49.18 | Neffi | But most API queries can be performed at PLAYER_LOGIN |
| 21:49.21 | Neffi | (or all?) |
| 21:49.34 | Semlar | doesn't seem to have any trouble leaving a channel at player_login |
| 21:49.34 | Neffi | I do everything on P_L and never had a problem |
| 21:49.44 | foxlit | "some" |
| 21:50.01 | Semlar | i need it to delay joining my channel until it's already finished joining the normal channels |
| 21:50.28 | Neffi | Based on my tests back in Cata, yoru character enters the game world (and "has come online" to friends) just before the loading screen disappears |
| 21:50.50 | Neffi | If your comp is slow, you can actually have like a 5-10 sec delay before the loading screen goes away, with your character sitting there |
| 21:51.07 | Neffi | I did these tests with Ventrilo and a friend watching me log in |
| 21:51.21 | TGiFallen | it also depends on addons neffi |
| 21:51.36 | Neffi | aye, because running a lot of code late in the load process delays it |
| 21:52.34 | Amarande | Yeah, you definitely "come online" before your screen loads. I've noticed this in the lack of response of folks to greetings if I greet them right as the notification appears vs. waiting a short bit |
| 21:52.47 | Neffi | You can add shoulder inscriptions to heirlooms, right? |
| 21:53.03 | Semlar | would watching PLAYER_ENTERING_WORLD and unregistering it be substantially different from watching player_login |
| 21:53.09 | Amarande | Neffi: can't add ones that will bind them to a specific character at all |
| 21:53.27 | Neffi | "Enchanting the item causes it to become soulbound."? |
| 21:53.33 | Amarande | yup that. except for the inscription ones, but if you add those, you still need to have inscription of the appropriate skill level for the enchant to function |
| 21:53.39 | Semlar | i thought they made enchants scale with level |
| 21:54.06 | Semlar | you still can't enchant boas? |
| 21:54.34 | Amarande | Semlar: you can, but apparently I read on wowpedia (which also mentions the scaling) that enchants that would bind a BoA to a *specific* character when used won't work |
| 21:54.52 | Amarande | except for profession-specific enchants, but those still carry the profession skill level requirement |
| 21:54.57 | Neffi | So can I attach this to my heirloom shoulder? http://www.wowhead.com/item=85559 |
| 21:54.59 | Neffi | Sha Armor Kit |
| 21:55.16 | Amarande | it would appear so |
| 21:56.07 | Neffi | Strange, because searching the AH for the inscription enchants on my level 12 shows their tooltip scaling |
| 21:56.12 | Amarande | e.g., enchant your BoA ring? sure, but you'll need enchanting or you'll get nada from it. same with special-perk-inscribing your BoA shoulders, etc. |
| 21:56.19 | Neffi | But I'm not gonna drop several hundred gold unless I'm sure |
| 21:56.26 | Amarande | those are the regular inscription enchants |
| 21:56.32 | Neffi | Yes |
| 21:56.36 | Amarande | I was referring to the better ones you get as an inscription perk, which actually do bind the item to you |
| 21:56.47 | Neffi | The tooltip states that using it makes the item become soulbound |
| 21:56.53 | Neffi | All of them say this except "armor kits" |
| 21:56.55 | Amarande | ahh ... hmmmm. not 100% sure on those |
| 21:56.57 | Neffi | Every single shoulder enchant |
| 21:57.10 | Amarande | but shoulder enchants have nearly always been that way |
| 21:57.33 | Semlar | aren't they all inscription only? |
| 21:57.46 | TGiFallen | no |
| 21:58.02 | Neffi | Semlar: Have you been running around with an unenchanted shoulder? |
| 21:58.07 | Neffi | =P |
| 21:58.13 | Semlar | fuck if i know |
| 21:58.19 | Semlar | i don't pay any attention to anything |
| 21:59.14 | Neffi | dammit |
| 21:59.23 | Neffi | 780g for the good shoulder enchant |
| 21:59.25 | Semlar | you know how long it's been since i got my shoulders? |
| 21:59.35 | Neffi | How old are you? |
| 21:59.36 | Neffi | =P |
| 21:59.43 | Cairenn | lol |
| 21:59.44 | Semlar | how dare you |
| 22:00.42 | Neffi | If I buy the 30g version and it works, then drop the 780g for the good version and it doesn't, I'ma be pissed |
| 22:01.12 | Semlar | so just resell it |
| 22:01.41 | Neffi | I never have luck with the economy |
| 22:01.58 | Neffi | Every single time I've had to resell an item like this, I get like 30% of my original input |
| 22:02.23 | Semlar | i gotta start buyin from you |
| 22:02.41 | Neffi | >_> |
| 22:02.52 | Dagmar | Unless you get the recipes early, most crafting won't turn a profit |
| 22:03.03 | Dagmar | Fucking botters |
| 22:03.27 | Neffi | That's pretty true |
| 22:03.37 | Neffi | I always go gathering, farm up gold, then use that to level crafting for its perks |
| 22:04.06 | Neffi | Consequently, if you're a gatherer early in the expansion, you qalso make a SHITLOAD |
| 22:04.15 | Neffi | esp when MoP's Ghost Iron was spawning like crazy |
| 22:04.26 | Amarande | Dagmar: is it really so much botters, or is it just intense competition between hundreds or thousands of players all equipped with Auctioneer? |
| 22:04.34 | Neffi | I could circle between 3-3 spawn points and they would respawn before I could even regather |
| 22:04.55 | Semlar | there are like 4 people on my server that control the entire auction house |
| 22:07.33 | *** join/#wowuidev Dotted^ (Dotted@x1-6-24-76-7d-9e-01-da.k920.webspeed.dk) |
| 22:08.39 | Neffi | Verdict: the high-end shoulder inscriptions CAN be applied to BoA shoulders and then traded |
| 22:08.44 | Amarande | Neffi: gathering in general is pretty reliable, I tend to have a few hundred gold by the mid 30s or so if I have even just one gathering prof starting on a new server |
| 22:08.46 | Neffi | 780g down the toilet |
| 22:09.02 | Neffi | I tend to hit a few thousand gold by the mid 30s |
| 22:09.07 | Neffi | But I also aggressively price and sell everything |
| 22:09.16 | Amarande | As for the tens of thousands of gold that you need for high end mounts and such, I'm still not sure just how you make that much :S |
| 22:09.35 | Amarande | probably just grind dailies for weeks on multiple alts I suppose :| |
| 22:09.41 | Neffi | Lots of gathering has always worked for me |
| 22:09.52 | Neffi | My better techniques, well figure those out for yourself |
| 22:09.55 | Neffi | ;) |
| 22:10.21 | Amarande | I've only rarely seen bots in my WoW experience, apart from the ubiquitous chat spammers |
| 22:10.52 | Amarande | Indeed, I can only remember once having 100% certainly, undeniably witnessed botting. I reported it to Blizz that night and they were gone the next day |
| 22:11.08 | Neffi | What's the go-to chest enchant for mages? |
| 22:11.50 | Neffi | Am I missing something or am I stuck with stats or stamina? |
| 22:11.54 | Semlar | stats |
| 22:11.57 | Amarande | Probably ... heh by now it's probably called something like Giga Ginormo Mega Tera Super Saiyan Stats :) |
| 22:12.04 | Semlar | stats is all anyone uses |
| 22:12.40 | Amarande | you know, that's one advantage TOR definitely has over WoW, come to think of it heh |
| 22:12.56 | Amarande | being a sci-fi game, you can get away with just calling everything "So and So Mark Something or Other" |
| 22:13.18 | Amarande | with WoW, they have to find ever more flowery terms to refer to a large amount or high level of mastery of something or other :) |
| 22:13.55 | zenzelezz | Phenomenally Supreme Herbalist |
| 22:14.38 | Amarande | Eventually it will probably start to have to use absurd sounding terms that sound like they belong in Dragonball Z |
| 22:15.49 | Neffi | Unless they really do a stat squish and apply it retroactively |
| 22:16.08 | Neffi | Then they can probably remove some redundancies, widen the range on the older ones, and re-use the top-end stuff for the new levels |
| 22:19.04 | Neffi | lol +40 sta, +44 int and +69 spellpower at level 12 -- and he doesn't have his weapon yet |
| 22:35.30 | Amarande | heh, the interesting thing is it used to be casters were the hardest to gear strongly at low levels |
| 22:35.47 | Amarande | no stat gave spellpower, items that gave spellpower were rare as all hell before 60 |
| 22:38.22 | Maldivia | it also used to be so, that the levels you got a new rank of your primary spell, you were completely overpowered that level :) |
| 22:38.34 | TGiFallen | yeah |
| 22:50.06 | Amarande | And the levels before that, you felt the underpoweredness |
| 22:50.09 | Amarande | 39. Dear flaming gods, 39. |
| 22:50.47 | Amarande | Probably one of the two worst levels of all among the first 60, at least once you're out of the newbie levels. :) |
| 22:51.37 | Amarande | also, curse, can you *please* call the client download something more memorable at some point? |
| 22:52.04 | Amarande | Every time I download the Curse Client, months later I go to clean out my downloads folder and find this setup.exe and can never remember what it is for without poking around advanced properties :p |
| 22:57.46 | Neffi | Hencewhy I treat my desktop like my temp download folder. It reminds me to delete things after I've used them. |
| 22:59.20 | Neffi | Is it possible to earn 160 Darkmoon Prize Tickets in the span of a single Darkmoon Faire? |
| 23:00.52 | Amarande | As for what the other worst level in the classic 60 were, that would of course be 59 |
| 23:01.28 | Neffi | I think that all depends on the era of the game |
| 23:01.38 | Neffi | The mid-to-late 50s used to be pretty hellish back in vanilla |
| 23:01.54 | Amarande | Neffi: 39 and 59 particularly sucked because of how the leveling system worked then :) |
| 23:02.04 | Amarande | First of all, both are odd, and you never got anything new at odd levels |
| 23:02.25 | Neffi | Late 50s were especially bad because the quests that did exist were scattered and/or sucked |
| 23:02.31 | Neffi | You ended up having to grind out |
| 23:02.49 | TGiFallen | dat grind |
| 23:02.54 | TGiFallen | ohh god do i remember them |
| 23:03.14 | Amarande | Second, 39 was just before you got your usually biggest game-changer talent (the 31 point talent *always* seemed to matter the most, even more than the 41 point talents from BC, which were often so blah that 0/21/40 in some combination was actually often a preferred spec ...) |
| 23:03.40 | Amarande | It was also the last level you used to have to eke out on foot |
| 23:03.41 | Neffi | I agree late 30s were not fun at all |
| 23:04.00 | Neffi | But the fact that late 50s had even less quests AND took much longer to grind out exp sucked |
| 23:04.11 | Amarande | 59, meanwhile, meant that you've got *just one more level* to hit 60 when you got all the goodies, and you were on your slow mount for one more level. But especially the fact that it was just one more level, and you got so much at 60, natch. |
| 23:04.13 | foxlit | I'm imagining old people in a retirement home having this conversation |
| 23:04.33 | foxlit | "well back in my day we had to grind to 39 and it was hell and there were kills and tsnow and uphill both ways" |
| 23:04.35 | Neffi | I think the mount wait was worse at 39 |
| 23:04.38 | Neffi | NO MOUNT AT ALL |
| 23:04.44 | Thunder_Child | They do....just with a different topic. |
| 23:04.51 | Amarande | Heh, 59 probably still kinda sucks these days, you get a talent at 60 after all, and it's also your last level of being ground-bound |
| 23:05.07 | Neffi | Some people hit level 60 and couldn't afford the epic mount anyway. But waiting out for the level 40 mount while you grind mobs sucked. |
| 23:05.30 | Neffi | 58 and 59 go very fast in Outland |
| 23:05.47 | foxlit | "and back in those days everything was better and rainbows and cross realm zones ruined wow and where is my pony" |
| 23:06.10 | Amarande | if you want rainbows and ponies you need to play D3 nowadays I think |
| 23:06.30 | Neffi | Nobody's saying everything was better |
| 23:06.34 | Neffi | Most things were much worse |
| 23:06.35 | Amarande | and the problem wasn't so much cross realm zones per se, it was how horribly bumpy the initial ride was |
| 23:06.43 | Neffi | But the things that WERE better were definitely memorable for it |
| 23:06.52 | Amarande | nowadays, they seem to have settled in pretty well |
| 23:07.07 | Amarande | about the main problem with CRZ these days is it kind of screws over players not on the West Coast |
| 23:07.28 | Amarande | since now *every server* runs its world events based on PST in order to accommodate CRZ, so "east coast" servers really aren't anymore heh |
| 23:07.29 | Neffi | Now there's an abundance of quests, so you never have a level bracket where you can't find enough quests to level. You end up hitting less than 50% of the quests leveling up. |
| 23:07.35 | Neffi | And you can level just through LDF |
| 23:07.38 | foxlit | I don't particularly care whether it was better or not. I find the "Back in the days..." line of conversation to be a major waste of time. |
| 23:07.53 | Amarande | foxlit: Boring stories of glory days? :) |
| 23:07.57 | Neffi | As opposed to wasting time doing other stuff? |
| 23:08.04 | foxlit | yes. |
| 23:08.07 | Neffi | Anyway, DEFAULT BINDINGS |
| 23:08.11 | Neffi | evil foxlit |
| 23:08.14 | foxlit | Checkbox, neffi. |
| 23:08.22 | foxlit | Uncheck it, be on your merry way. |
| 23:08.25 | Amarande | *cue Springsteen* ... |
| 23:08.47 | Neffi | I think it's important to consider games in retrospect. It's an exercise in understanding game design. What makes a game good and bad, what choices worked out and which didn't. |
| 23:09.00 | Neffi | As somebody who aspires to make better MMOs than WoW, I like discussing it |
| 23:09.56 | Neffi | foxlit: I was mostly slightly irritated that I didn't realizing OPie had changed my M4/M5 buttons until I was in the middle of combat with a good 6 enemies |
| 23:10.00 | Neffi | And those were critical keys for me |
| 23:10.19 | Amarande | looks at foxlit ... pay Neffi's repair bill nao thx :D |
| 23:10.24 | Amarande | heh |
| 23:10.30 | Neffi | lol |
| 23:10.44 | Amarande | man, I need one of those gaming mice |
| 23:10.46 | foxlit | and it even checks against collisions with primary bindings. |
| 23:10.47 | Neffi | But I guess breaking the promise to patch OPie for right-button support makes up for it |
| 23:10.49 | Amarande | that or one of those 122 key POS keyboards |
| 23:10.55 | Neffi | Maybe I WILL write that patch one day |
| 23:11.01 | Amarande | although I'm not sure whether or not those 122 key keyboards are actually allowed for use in MMOs or if they're considered cheating |
| 23:11.18 | Neffi | foxlit: Does it? Because it DID overwrite BindPad |
| 23:11.19 | foxlit | maybe your action bar addon or whatever should use SetBinding instead of SetOverrideBinding :) |
| 23:11.35 | Neffi | I'm pretty sure it uses SetBinding |
| 23:11.41 | Neffi | Because it behaves as though it does |
| 23:12.05 | Amarande | apparently, those super giant keyboards' extra keys do not have normal DirectX keyscans, so you have to set them in driver to be equivalent to some or other combination of normal keys |
| 23:12.14 | Amarande | now, is that considered legit, or is that considered illegal botting/macros? |
| 23:12.27 | Amarande | or is it no different from having a 10000000000 button razer gaming mouse? |
| 23:12.30 | Semlar | one action per keypress |
| 23:13.00 | foxlit | hm, it does; curious. |
| 23:13.20 | Amarande | Semlar: well, yeah. basically you'd set F13-F24 to emulate other key combos like, say, Ctrl-Alt-P or something similarly octopus-requiring to hit naturally |
| 23:13.38 | Amarande | but is programming a single key to function as if it were ctrl-alt-foo actually kosher? |
| 23:13.40 | Neffi | That's legal |
| 23:13.42 | foxlit | Maybe it binds later than I check for that bind's presence |
| 23:13.44 | Amarande | ah |
| 23:13.44 | Neffi | Because it's one button per keypress |
| 23:13.52 | Neffi | All it's doing is giving you a second key that already exists |
| 23:13.55 | Amarande | yeah, maybe I will start looking at those 122 key behemoths then |
| 23:14.16 | Neffi | How do you expect people to use 18-button mice unless they could do that? |
| 23:14.40 | Amarande | Neffi: I had wondered for a bit if there was some sort of special deal going on between people like Razer and the MMO manufacturers regarding that |
| 23:14.54 | Amarande | after all, you have things like the special colour crystals in TOR that are indicative of such partnerships being the case at times |
| 23:15.06 | Amarande | (there's a black-green colour crystal set you can only get if you have a code from Razer keyboards or mice) |
| 23:15.25 | Semlar | i have a mouse with a dozen side buttons and i would much rather have 2 side buttons |
| 23:15.41 | Amarande | Sadly, the problem is not only do you have a limited number of keys to work with, but also that you're usually limited to what you can use with one hand, especially when raiding |
| 23:15.43 | Neffi | I'm sure some special deals DO go on. WoW does have a WoW-branded mouse. |
| 23:15.54 | Amarande | Since your one hand always has to be on the mouse, natch |
| 23:16.07 | Neffi | But out-of-game macros that simulate multiple keys at once, or add delays, etc are still against the ToS, whether the mouse is alright by Blizz or not |
| 23:16.29 | Semlar | you can easily rebind the left half of your keyboard to far more keys than you will ever need |
| 23:16.43 | Neffi | ehhh |
| 23:16.49 | Neffi | Get into PvP and start using a lot of macros |
| 23:16.50 | Semlar | yes |
| 23:17.13 | Semlar | as a hunter which probably has more keybinds than anybody else in pvp |
| 23:17.18 | Neffi | I use the left half of the keyboard plus 6 mouse buttons (besides the left/middle/right) |
| 23:17.22 | Semlar | i can tell you that you can bind everything to your keyboard |
| 23:17.34 | Neffi | Also some key combos are not comfortable. Like Alt+T |
| 23:17.41 | Neffi | It's really nice to have the extra keys |
| 23:17.51 | foxlit | alt-t is awesome |
| 23:18.00 | foxlit | thumb on alt, middle finger on t |
| 23:18.07 | Neffi | alien |
| 23:18.32 | Neffi | I categorize bindings. Like R is all primary attacks (Mangle, shift for Ferocious, ctrl for Shred, alt for Ravage) |
| 23:18.37 | Neffi | So the extra keys come in handy for me |
| 23:18.47 | Semlar | 123456, qwer, asdf, zxcv and their ctrl alt and shift combinations are a lot of bindings |
| 23:18.52 | Semlar | plus space |
| 23:18.57 | Neffi | C is countering, so some classes have 1 spell bound to it only |
| 23:19.00 | Amarande | e.g., how significant of an advantage would you get from using, say, http://pckeyboard.com/page/PC122/UB40B5A instead of a traditional 104? |
| 23:19.02 | Neffi | And I HATE using the number keys |
| 23:19.25 | Neffi | They're hugely uncomfortable for me. I use the letter keys on the left-side only |
| 23:19.37 | Neffi | Amarande: I hate buckling spring. Get a Cherry MX Brown |
| 23:19.44 | Neffi | See: Rosewill, Ducky, Cooler Master, Filco |
| 23:19.45 | Semlar | you don't use your number keys? |
| 23:19.48 | Neffi | no |
| 23:20.03 | Neffi | It's more comfortable for my finger to reach down than up |
| 23:20.09 | Semlar | how big are your hands |
| 23:20.14 | foxlit | okay, while not interacting with a laptop keyboard in a horizontal position, alt-t is actually pinky on alt, pointer on t. |
| 23:20.15 | Neffi | R T F G B V C X Z |
| 23:20.18 | Neffi | Fairly large |
| 23:20.24 | Neffi | But I like very quick response |
| 23:21.11 | Neffi | See I refuse to move my pinky |
| 23:21.19 | Neffi | I can't use WASD then |
| 23:22.12 | Semlar | i bet you have fewer keybinds than you think you do |
| 23:22.32 | Neffi | Amarande: http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=220123&p=3487620#p3486614 |
| 23:22.36 | foxlit | i bet I have more keybinds than I think I do :) |
| 23:22.51 | Semlar | i bet it's less than 20 |
| 23:22.57 | Neffi | Probably fewer than a hunter, yes. But having them categorized and comfortable means having a mouse with more than 5 buttons. |
| 23:22.58 | foxlit | I think it's like 6. |
| 23:23.03 | Neffi | I also have a lot of macros |
| 23:23.20 | Neffi | And I definitely have more than 20 bindings. It's closer to 50 |
| 23:23.26 | Semlar | i bet you do not have 50 keybinds |
| 23:23.39 | Neffi | Do I really need to log onto my druid and count? |
| 23:23.41 | foxlit | http://steelseries.com/products/mice/steelseries-sensei-raw <3 |
| 23:23.51 | Semlar | assuming you're talking about spells |
| 23:24.03 | Neffi | Talking about macros as well |
| 23:24.09 | Semlar | for spells? |
| 23:24.22 | Neffi | I only have one "targeting" macro, so yes |
| 23:24.27 | Semlar | then yes |
| 23:24.27 | Neffi | And that targeting macro replaces tab in arenas |
| 23:24.32 | Neffi | Outside that I just use tab |
| 23:24.33 | Semlar | i bet you have fewer keybinds than 50 |
| 23:24.42 | Neffi | I'll count for you |
| 23:24.47 | foxlit | Though I can't really use the right set of buttons (6/7) comfotably :/ |
| 23:24.51 | Semlar | i could make a macro that counts than for you |
| 23:24.59 | Semlar | them |
| 23:25.03 | Neffi | No you can't, because I use BindPad |
| 23:25.08 | Semlar | um |
| 23:25.14 | Semlar | anything you have bound to a key my addon can detect |
| 23:25.43 | Neffi | Not if I streamline them by including all binds on a given key within one macro |
| 23:25.48 | Semlar | i had to write something to do this while i was working on a minigame to help you with keybinds |
| 23:25.58 | Neffi | Eg, R, shift-R, ctrl-R and alt-R are part of one macro, despite doing completely different things |
| 23:26.30 | Semlar | it knows every action you have bound to every key combination |
| 23:26.41 | foxlit | Semlar: I have three words for you: multi key bindings. |
| 23:26.47 | Amarande | Neffi: don't forget the other caveat about newegg, of course |
| 23:27.04 | Amarande | namely, if you're going to buy from newegg now, better spring for a specifically expedited shipping method and never "standard" anymore |
| 23:27.06 | Neffi | 53 if you don't count farming macros, Semlar |
| 23:27.29 | Neffi | Special-cases of a spell sometimes use shift+ctrl. Like NS+Cyclone. |
| 23:27.34 | Neffi | So I can have 5 binds on one key |
| 23:27.42 | Amarande | oh, also, never use Ctrl-Shift-0 |
| 23:27.49 | Amarande | for some reason, that key combination, as of Vista, will never bind anymore |
| 23:28.09 | Amarande | at least not unless you're doing something odd like running WoW in Wine on Linux instead |
| 23:28.19 | Neffi | Windows 7 amd64, and I can't bind it Amarande |
| 23:28.37 | Amarande | Neffi: yeah, it can only be bound if you're running WoW on a Mac or Linux |
| 23:28.48 | Amarande | apparently CS0 is intercepted by Windows for some sort of odd purpose |
| 23:29.04 | Amarande | it took me quite a lot of googling around to figure out just why, it's apparently got to do with some sort of multi-lingual support that was added with Vista |
| 23:29.05 | *** join/#wowuidev harl4041 (harl@dslb-084-063-140-009.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 23:29.09 | Neffi | Maybe they decided to kill ctrl-alt-delete and then backed out at the last minute |
| 23:29.10 | Amarande | not sure why it needs a hotkey like that *shrug* |
| 23:29.18 | Neffi | oh |
| 23:29.27 | Amarande | no, ctrl+shift+0 has something to do with languages, definitely, though I'm a bit foggy on what it was |
| 23:30.04 | Amarande | something about changing the language on your keyboard I think it may have been |
| 23:30.18 | Neffi | Yeah because that should TOTALLY be a binding |
| 23:30.19 | Amarande | though I'm not sure wtf changing the language on your keyboard would be something you'd do often enough for there to need to be a standard hotkey related to it :S |
| 23:30.27 | Neffi | Hey let me switch to English in the middle of this sentance. |
| 23:30.50 | Neffi | More likely, "how the fuck does my keyboard keep switching?" accidents will occur |
| 23:31.09 | Seerah | that's why it's something odd like CS0 ;) |
| 23:31.20 | Neffi | Seerah: You don't have a cat, do you? |
| 23:31.23 | Semlar | um |
| 23:31.24 | Neffi | ;) |
| 23:31.35 | Semlar | i used key bindings all the time to switch between languages |
| 23:31.53 | Seerah | no, but I have dogs. (I had to unbind the windows key, cause that's where he used to rest his chin when wanting out. |
| 23:32.00 | Semlar | i needed to be able to switch into japanese and back |
| 23:32.15 | Neffi | It's cute that he rests his chin AT THE COMPUTER to go out |
| 23:32.36 | Neffi | Semlar: weaboo |
| 23:32.37 | Seerah | it's more along the lines of "mommy, look at ME!" |
| 23:32.43 | Semlar | thanks |
| 23:32.50 | Neffi | >_> |
| 23:33.00 | Neffi | put on the red light, Semlar |
| 23:33.33 | Semlar | i'm too busy learning a second language |
| 23:34.01 | Neffi | meh |
| 23:34.11 | Neffi | I'd rather learn something cool like Latin or Old Norse |
| 23:34.20 | Semlar | no, you'd rather not do it |
| 23:34.27 | Neffi | Or something useful like.. a Western language |
| 23:34.38 | Neffi | I mean, Japanese is useful too |
| 23:35.04 | Neffi | But I'd rather be able to go to Europe and order a beer in the native tongue |
| 23:35.27 | Amarande | heh, the windows key |
| 23:35.37 | Amarande | if it wasn't actually useful in 8, I'd go get a keyboard without one again |
| 23:35.50 | Amarande | mind you, my computer is also fast enough that I don't really need to worry about suicide keys anymore, though, so *shrug* |
| 23:37.41 | *** join/#wowuidev harl (harl@dslb-092-073-091-122.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 23:41.03 | *** join/#wowuidev MiRai (~MiRai@99-106-146-169.lightspeed.nsvltn.sbcglobal.net) |
| 23:46.50 | foxlit | hm, why would chrome's omnibar autocompletion cause keyboard lag in normal windows, but not in incognito windows? |
| 23:47.28 | Xuerian | foxlit: Does incognito not include your history in its search? |
| 23:47.57 | foxlit | it comes up with the same URLs, at least. |
| 23:48.38 | Amarande | Xuerian: incognito is probably like firefox's private windows |
| 23:48.58 | Amarande | I know in firefox in a private window, it remembers all the history etc. that is already saved, it just won't permanently save any *new* cookies, cache, history etc. |
| 23:49.07 | foxlit | And it's only for some url prefix, which is bothering me. |
| 23:49.34 | Amarande | I've never really used Chrome ... I'm starting to consider it because firefox has a few irritating problems that are starting to irk me |
| 23:49.43 | Amarande | but on the other hand ... built in flash? seriously? :( |
| 23:49.54 | Amarande | I got rid of flash a few weeks ago and have been eminently glad I did |
| 23:50.47 | Amarande | I like to actually be able to view web pages without having to go into task manager regularly to kill an inefficient flash process or having to stop and wait eventually for it to fail out and spam the sad lego icons :) |
| 23:51.58 | Xuerian | Shrug, I figured. Easy is always worth a shot. As far as Chrome, it just feels faster, but it also doesn't have Tree Style Tabs, so no dice :| |
| 23:53.20 | Amarande | mostly, firefox has a couple of problems with google and one with facebook lately |
| 23:53.51 | zenzelezz | how so? |
| 23:54.10 | Amarande | zenzelezz: with google, it 1) if I try to go to my google play books library, in the pane where the library would appear all I ever get is that spinning circley-arrowy icon until I give up |
| 23:54.45 | Amarande | and 2) annoyingly often, if I do a google search, click on a result, then click Back to go back to the search, it appears for a split second and then it has a blank google page with a blank entry box, and I have to explicitly hit refresh to bring the results back up |
| 23:55.19 | Amarande | with facebook, I get strange artifacts, generally square black boxes, over the right hand bars at random ... mousing over them generally clears them for a time |
| 23:55.21 | Amarande | not sure why |
| 23:55.55 | Amarande | I'm guessing it's some weird scripting glitch |
| 23:56.16 | Amarande | but I'm on the aurora update channel where updates are practically daily and it hasn't been fixed in weeks at least now |
| 23:56.47 | Amarande | bugs in aurora are probably to be expected, but for the SAME bugs to go unfixed for that long is another matter :S |
| 23:56.47 | Xuerian | I bumped back down to the beta channel, honestly. |
| 23:57.09 | Amarande | Xuerian, I'm presuming if it was in aurora for several weeks, the same bugs probably percolated down into beta by now |
| 23:57.47 | Amarande | typically I only drop back down to beta if there's something catastrophic in aurora (usually "it won't run/install at all" type things, which are pretty rare) |
| 23:59.31 | Xuerian | I don't use facebook enough to say if I get the same thing, but maybe one of the google url stripper/simplifier userscripts (I use them so I can copy/paste real links from google) would help with your google problems. |
| 23:59.36 | Amarande | the facebook glitch has been the case for a LONG time, apparently it's some sort of bad interaction with the GPU driver or something similarly complicated |
| 23:59.49 | Amarande | since I remember hearing something about the fb glitch having to do with hardware video acceleration, and I'm not at all sure why that should matter |
