| 00:08.52 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (~Kaydeethr@wowwiki/Kaydeethree) |
| 00:10.49 | kd3 | whee. driving home during flurries is fun |
| 00:11.01 | kd3 | I guess I'm going to have to get used to that in huntsville |
| 00:12.00 | foxlit | hm? what's this about huntsville? |
| 00:12.10 | kd3 | I'm moving there in a weekish |
| 00:12.32 | foxlit | surely not for the weather? :) |
| 00:12.40 | kd3 | no |
| 00:12.48 | kd3 | I've got a contract gig on the base for a while |
| 00:12.57 | kd3 | then I'll be looking for more permanent work |
| 00:13.05 | Ressy | kd3, please tell me they're got better internet than your old place? :P |
| 00:13.31 | kd3 | yes |
| 00:13.34 | kd3 | quite |
| 00:29.51 | *** join/#wowuidev Krapsy (~chatzilla@ool-4572cb11.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 00:34.37 | mckenziemc1 | "Happy Winter! Wishing you all the wonder and joy of the season" wait what |
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| 00:42.11 | *** part/#wowuidev cirdan (~chris@c-69-248-228-142.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
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| 01:13.08 | Semlar | viad! |
| 01:13.39 | Semlar | you said if you go healing as feral your hots don't show their durations? |
| 01:13.48 | Semlar | maybe the aura has a different spellid or name |
| 01:14.08 | Semlar | i don't even remember which i settled on |
| 01:19.16 | VIad | hi again Semlar |
| 01:19.44 | VIad | I used my heart of the wild, makes me able to heal properly as non-resto :P |
| 01:19.49 | kd3 | ...wtf? |
| 01:19.51 | VIad | probably uses other spells idd |
| 01:20.08 | Semlar | i'll have to check if the id of the spell on the bar is the same as the spell it actually casts |
| 01:20.16 | kd3 | I'm fighting razor, forget to dismiss my water elemental. wipe and reset, and resummon my water elemental since my queue's about to pop and he's still got conflag on him |
| 01:20.26 | kd3 | I thought they fixed that after the blood plague |
| 01:20.37 | VIad | kd3; baron geddon GOGOGO |
| 01:21.29 | kd3 | can't. my mc save is cleared for the week |
| 01:22.17 | VIad | Semlar: I'll do you a favor and login and use the spell and see what ID it uses :P |
| 01:27.45 | Semlar | ^_^ |
| 01:28.33 | VIad | Semlar: same spellid |
| 01:28.41 | Semlar | same name too |
| 01:28.50 | VIad | yes |
| 01:28.56 | Semlar | hm |
| 01:28.58 | VIad | the talent modifies the spell internally |
| 01:29.02 | VIad | but the ID's and such are the same |
| 01:29.09 | VIad | same goes with moonfire spell |
| 01:29.15 | VIad | weird that it didn't show it properly them |
| 01:29.17 | VIad | then* |
| 01:29.23 | Semlar | you're talking about the aura or just the spell on the bar |
| 01:29.39 | VIad | both spell on the bar and the aura that heals are same spellID |
| 01:29.45 | VIad | with or without heart of the wild |
| 01:30.03 | Semlar | and it doesn't track the duration but only when you have heart of the wild up? |
| 01:30.05 | VIad | but when I used my heart of the wild, and healed Tsulon boss in the last raid dungeon, my rejuvenation didn't show as a timer on my bars |
| 01:30.46 | Semlar | that's odd |
| 01:31.10 | VIad | actually it doesn't show my HOT on targets either |
| 01:31.18 | VIad | just healed a NPC and targeted it |
| 01:31.19 | Semlar | well that makes it less odd |
| 01:31.47 | VIad | ye |
| 01:31.48 | VIad | lol |
| 01:31.52 | VIad | id is 774 |
| 01:33.35 | Semlar | but if you put it on yourself it shows up? |
| 01:34.34 | VIad | nope |
| 01:34.42 | Semlar | it works on my druid |
| 01:35.07 | Semlar | so unless i broke the one i uploaded it seems like it ought to |
| 01:35.23 | Semlar | what npc are you healing |
| 01:36.00 | Semlar | that doesn't really matter |
| 01:36.07 | Semlar | the buff shows up in the interface when you target them? |
| 01:36.28 | VIad | :D |
| 01:36.42 | VIad | ye it does, Semlar |
| 01:37.05 | VIad | I recommend you use the alpha channel in your settings |
| 01:37.16 | VIad | i.e. able to "turn off" a specific feature by setting it to 0 ;D |
| 01:37.19 | VIad | just an idea |
| 01:37.39 | Semlar | i know |
| 01:37.57 | Semlar | just add an alpha where it has the rgbs |
| 01:38.33 | Semlar | so if you cast rejuvenation on yourself it doesn't put the duration on the bar |
| 01:39.18 | Semlar | but it works for other things? |
| 01:39.28 | VIad | btw this is weird |
| 01:39.40 | VIad | ok now it works after some /reloadui |
| 01:39.42 | VIad | but not on targe |
| 01:39.49 | VIad | target* but now it shows my own duration |
| 01:40.00 | VIad | just casting on a npc I target, 33698 :P |
| 01:40.04 | VIad | argent peacekeeper |
| 01:40.08 | Semlar | cast on a player.. |
| 01:40.52 | Semlar | if you cast it on an npc i'm fairly sure it's going to ignore it and look at yourself |
| 01:41.05 | VIad | :( |
| 01:41.13 | VIad | some fights require you to heal npcs |
| 01:41.54 | VIad | but I get it now |
| 01:43.06 | VIad | UnitIsFriend is true tough on the mobs I heal ;p |
| 01:43.20 | Semlar | okay |
| 01:43.46 | VIad | but |
| 01:43.47 | VIad | (UnitExists("target") and (UnitIsPlayer("target") or UnitCanAttack("player", "target"))) and "target" or "player" |
| 01:43.48 | Semlar | i mean the reason i did it this way was because you could have an npc targeted but would almost always be interested in your self buffs |
| 01:43.49 | VIad | returns player |
| 01:43.53 | VIad | yeah |
| 01:45.06 | Semlar | it can be changed |
| 01:45.38 | VIad | I know ^^ |
| 01:45.38 | Semlar | and just because a unit is friendly doesn't mean you can cast on it |
| 01:45.58 | Semlar | the vast, VAST majority of npcs at the time couldn't be buffed |
| 01:45.58 | VIad | that is correct |
| 01:46.15 | Semlar | and if they could it didn't really matter |
| 01:47.07 | Semlar | but other than that it works? |
| 01:47.35 | VIad | yeah |
| 01:47.40 | VIad | one idea :D |
| 01:50.25 | VIad | SpellCanTargetUnit() returns true if the spell you pick up can be cast on the unit :P |
| 01:50.34 | VIad | now doing the pickup action is sadly protected tough hehe |
| 01:50.45 | Semlar | yeah it wouldn't really work |
| 01:51.12 | VIad | if only SpellCanTargetUnit could take a 2nd argument, spellID :P |
| 01:51.41 | Semlar | it shouldn't matter, i can just check if the target has any of my auras on it and if it doesn't default to the player |
| 01:51.53 | Semlar | it's just that it could be somewhat confusing |
| 01:52.50 | VIad | yeah |
| 01:54.56 | VIad | hmm |
| 01:55.03 | VIad | why is the border visible when I set the alpha ot 0? |
| 01:55.07 | VIad | timer.border:SetVertexColor right? |
| 01:55.45 | VIad | nvm |
| 01:56.19 | VIad | made my cooldown appear like omnicc :P |
| 01:56.47 | VIad | wish I could change the timer position with setting, the timer that appears on my unitframe auras :d |
| 01:59.04 | VIad | I edited your code lol :p |
| 01:59.47 | VIad | Semlar: did you take a peak at the dkp site I linked you? ;) |
| 02:00.23 | Semlar | yeah it looks interesting |
| 02:00.59 | VIad | it works |
| 02:01.29 | VIad | can you do me a favor? |
| 02:01.36 | VIad | do you have the areatable as a csv file? |
| 02:02.02 | Semlar | not right now |
| 02:02.06 | VIad | ok |
| 02:02.10 | Semlar | i could make one later |
| 02:02.16 | VIad | ^^ |
| 02:02.34 | VIad | I fail miserably at properly extracting the dbc files, sigh |
| 02:02.40 | VIad | already getting partial extract :( |
| 02:02.48 | Semlar | what do you want out of it |
| 02:07.25 | kd3 | mpq extraction is a dark art |
| 02:07.53 | Semlar | yes it's all very mystical |
| 02:08.16 | VIad | I just like keeping all the dbc as a csv version |
| 02:08.23 | VIad | I use the data for various scripts and such |
| 02:08.28 | VIad | automation ftw ;) |
| 02:08.41 | VIad | but sadly I don't always manage to extract all the dbc files -_- |
| 02:09.21 | VIad | how are your skills on this front, kd3? |
| 02:10.15 | kd3 | sometimes vlad's tool works, sometimes it fails me. I should probably roll my own libStorm-based tool at some point |
| 02:10.26 | kd3 | ladik* |
| 02:10.47 | VIad | vlads :P |
| 02:11.34 | VIad | I use the misc and locale-enGB as base mpqs, and apply the patches and such on top |
| 02:11.38 | VIad | and I open as merged mode |
| 02:11.38 | Semlar | i started writing an mpq extractor because i couldn't stand the fact that i had to extract basically everything in the directory i wanted even if i only wanted some of the files |
| 02:12.04 | Semlar | i couldn't just match a file name pattern in the mpq extractor |
| 02:12.13 | VIad | Semlar: do you manage to extract the files up to date tough? |
| 02:12.22 | Semlar | yes |
| 02:12.40 | Semlar | at this point i'm assuming the "update" mpqs are complete garbage |
| 02:12.42 | VIad | can you tell me what you use as base mpqs? |
| 02:12.48 | VIad | but they aren't |
| 02:12.53 | VIad | they contain additions to the dbc files :( |
| 02:13.01 | Semlar | they contain nothing as far as i can tell |
| 02:13.02 | VIad | but, tell me what you use a base mpqs? |
| 02:13.17 | Semlar | every patch file overwrites the original file with nothing |
| 02:13.41 | Semlar | ladiks tool does NOT combine them |
| 02:14.00 | VIad | it has a patch mode |
| 02:14.02 | VIad | it can :P |
| 02:14.04 | Semlar | it doesn't work |
| 02:14.25 | VIad | :( |
| 02:14.32 | Semlar | if you include the "update" mpqs it just overwrites the original files with a 4kb version which contains nothing |
| 02:15.04 | kd3 | mpqedit /merged <foo>.mpq /patch wow-update-*.mpq |
| 02:15.16 | kd3 | generally works |
| 02:15.54 | VIad | depends what foo is :P |
| 02:15.58 | VIad | very important what you use as basempq |
| 02:16.03 | kd3 | thus, generally |
| 02:16.04 | VIad | using the misc.mpq gives some dbc files |
| 02:16.09 | Semlar | it detects that they're patch files in the gui, it just doesn't extract them correctly |
| 02:16.09 | VIad | using the locale-enGB gives others |
| 02:16.41 | kd3 | you can open both misc and locale-engb at the same time, theoretically |
| 02:16.56 | VIad | ye I do kd3 |
| 02:17.04 | VIad | but if I say that misc is before locale, or after |
| 02:17.08 | VIad | it changes the output results lol |
| 02:17.14 | VIad | after the editor has applied the patches :P |
| 02:17.33 | VIad | btw is the locale > misc mpq or the other way around? |
| 02:18.23 | kd3 | I try to open the locale-independent stuff first, then open up the locale-based stuff |
| 02:18.36 | kd3 | misc before locale-enGB |
| 02:19.26 | VIad | ye |
| 02:19.34 | VIad | weird tough |
| 02:23.10 | VIad | seems the order of the patches doesn't mater |
| 02:23.13 | VIad | only the base mpq list |
| 02:23.21 | VIad | tried various patch order, same results :P |
| 02:23.22 | *** join/#wowuidev Ketho (~ngsc@ip565063bd.direct-adsl.nl) |
| 02:23.35 | VIad | but swapping the two files, locale-enGB and misc, different outputs |
| 02:23.52 | VIad | so I did one of each variety and merge the folders, some files overlapped, gonna check what exactly |
| 02:24.11 | VIad | late, should sleep :P |
| 02:26.34 | VIad | hehe, "51,0,0,0,0,"Hyrule"" :P |
| 02:26.42 | VIad | cfg_categories.dbc |
| 02:34.46 | VIad | Semlar: just one thing, item cooldowns look odd when they finish before the estimated timer |
| 02:35.04 | VIad | at least when the cooldown timer is in the bag, weird |
| 02:35.16 | VIad | the text is frozen for 1-2 sec and disappears |
| 02:35.16 | VIad | :P |
| 02:35.32 | VIad | text waits for shine animation before disappearingh hee |
| 02:35.42 | Semlar | shouldn't have anything to do with each other |
| 02:37.23 | VIad | shrug |
| 02:37.27 | VIad | oh look at SceneScript.db2 :D |
| 02:37.31 | VIad | funny, contains lots of lua |
| 02:39.31 | VIad | 366,"My Captured Pet","TEMP TEXT!!\r\nI didn't have room for this pet in my journal and my bags were all full, so I mailed it to myself!" |
| 02:40.55 | VIad | 344,"Scroll of Resurrection Items","Welcome back to the World of Warcraft!\r\n\r\nWe've supplied you with a whole new set of high-level gear, but attached you'll find all the old items and equipment you once carried.\r\n\r\n - The WoW Dev Team" |
| 03:04.10 | kd3 | ...so, what. the "new, more efficient format" for steam game content is just extracting the data from the .gcfs? |
| 03:12.25 | *** join/#wowuidev Dark_Elf (~Dark_Elf@h69-131-221-209.wdrnin.broadband.dynamic.tds.net) |
| 03:19.17 | Esamynn | Semlar: pong (dunno how late I am) |
| 03:20.03 | Semlar | did i ping you at some point |
| 03:20.25 | kd3 | too late, apparently |
| 03:21.02 | Semlar | it seems like it would have had to have been weeks if not months ago |
| 03:21.42 | Semlar | are you sure it was me? |
| 03:23.05 | Semlar | esamynn! |
| 03:23.20 | Esamynn | yes, wasn't here tho |
| 03:23.35 | Esamynn | I've been busy with work for a number of weeks and so not really around |
| 03:23.47 | Semlar | oh, it probably wasn't too important |
| 03:23.58 | kd3 | busy with work? perish the thought |
| 03:24.28 | Esamynn | oh, nvm, I didn't look at the log closely enough it was an older ping than I thought and I did respond to it |
| 03:24.36 | Semlar | >_> |
| 03:24.59 | Esamynn | my proxy just gives me the last X lines for a channel, not the lines since the last relevent date :/ |
| 03:25.30 | kd3 | I saw pings from october |
| 03:25.34 | kd3 | but that looks like it |
| 03:25.59 | Semlar | i have a horrible client and have no idea how to use it anyway |
| 03:26.05 | Esamynn | lol |
| 03:26.14 | Esamynn | anyways, nvm |
| 03:26.27 | kd3 | oh, chatzilla. that'd explain it |
| 03:26.43 | Semlar | the important thing is http://i.imgur.com/xygpA.jpg |
| 03:26.50 | Esamynn | lol |
| 03:27.05 | Esamynn | having fun? |
| 03:27.07 | Semlar | am i doing this right |
| 03:27.18 | Thunder_Child | Taste the rainbow |
| 03:27.40 | Semlar | http://i.imgur.com/EE053.jpg it's so very redundant |
| 03:29.06 | Semlar | actually i noticed "mapster enhanced" had a bunch of pois but i'm not sure how they get them or how they compare to mine |
| 03:31.19 | Mr_Rabies | hey semlar |
| 03:31.22 | Mr_Rabies | where's thunder bluff |
| 03:31.30 | Semlar | i dunno |
| 03:31.36 | Esamynn | yah, I'm not sure either |
| 03:31.43 | Mr_Rabies | it only says it FOUR TIMES |
| 03:31.44 | Mr_Rabies | lol |
| 03:31.59 | Mr_Rabies | FIVE |
| 03:32.02 | Mr_Rabies | i missed the top |
| 03:32.32 | Semlar | i think once is for the poi/landmark in the game, once is for the "area" relative to that particular map, once is for the area relative to mulgore? and once is for the area relative to kalimdor |
| 03:33.10 | Semlar | the fact that they aren't all in the same spot is a little confusing |
| 03:33.41 | Esamynn | umm, you're expecting Blizzard's data to be consistant :P |
| 03:33.44 | Semlar | i really need to filter the things |
| 03:33.50 | Esamynn | foolish mortal |
| 03:37.24 | pompy | apparently for the steam holiday sale 2012 badge, you only had to complete 4 of the 6 tasks? |
| 03:41.11 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaylin (~Kaylin@c-98-203-233-187.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 04:00.00 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (~Kaydeethr@wowwiki/Kaydeethree) |
| 04:26.23 | kd3 | yay. finally. all of my installed steam games on wine are now up-to-date using the new format. sigh. now if only I could symlink stuff that works on linux so I don't have multiple copies of games |
| 04:29.21 | Mr_Rabies | how'd you get it to convert over? was it just automagic? |
| 04:29.47 | pompy | the "new" format.. isnt that like over a year old? |
| 04:29.57 | Mr_Rabies | yeah, but a lot of games still don't use it |
| 04:30.28 | Mr_Rabies | like skyrim i think, and all the other bethesda games, and all the pre-portal 2 valve games |
| 04:30.29 | pompy | it converts it when you go to launch the game , iirc |
| 04:30.44 | Mr_Rabies | only the ones that have been moved over |
| 04:30.45 | kd3 | I last ran 'wine' steam a few months back? just fired it up today and almost all 30 games I have installed asked to convert when I "updated" |
| 04:31.12 | Mr_Rabies | i can tell because i can't install them anywhere but the steam folder if they use the old format |
| 04:31.13 | Mr_Rabies | :| |
| 04:31.29 | Arrowmaster | i have no idea what you guys are talking about |
| 04:31.35 | Mr_Rabies | borderlands still doesn't use it :| |
| 04:31.38 | Mr_Rabies | just checked :< |
| 04:31.58 | Mr_Rabies | there's a new file format that lets steam do delta updates to games instead of redownloading, like, the whole thing |
| 04:32.11 | Mr_Rabies | it's been out about a year but a lot of stuff still doesn't use it |
| 04:32.31 | kd3 | largely by extracting the game files from the .gcfs and laying them out on disk in steam/steamapps/common/foo |
| 04:32.57 | Mr_Rabies | or whichever steam library you tell it to use :p |
| 04:46.35 | karl_w_w | the word foo is overused these days |
| 04:46.44 | karl_w_w | if only there was some kind of group to fight it |
| 04:46.47 | Esamynn | foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo |
| 04:50.28 | *** join/#wowuidev MentalPower (~textual@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Administrator/MentalPower) |
| 04:50.28 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v MentalPower] by ChanServ |
| 05:00.37 | wereHamster | http://imgur.com/gallery/IWQlR |
| 05:04.38 | p3lim | Gah I'm stuck on this one, if I wanted to split a string with the delimiter ":" in this string, how would I do it? "one:two:three:four" |
| 05:06.13 | kd3 | strsplit(':","one:two:three:four") |
| 05:06.21 | kd3 | er, ':' |
| 05:06.59 | p3lim | Is that implemented through Lua itself? |
| 05:07.05 | p3lim | Because I can't call it :/ |
| 05:07.21 | kd3 | strsplit is a wow-added function |
| 05:07.27 | p3lim | Figured |
| 05:08.33 | kd3 | stuff in base lua is at http://www.lua.org/manual/5.1/manual.html#5.4 |
| 05:15.55 | p3lim | Guess I'll use string.gmatch |
| 05:17.48 | p3lim | for k,v in string.gmatch('one:two', '(%w+):(%w+)') do return k,v end |
| 05:19.48 | Semlar | couldn't you just capture like ([^:]+) or something |
| 05:20.48 | Semlar | match everything but your delimeter |
| 05:21.02 | p3lim | maybe |
| 05:32.39 | kd3 | heh. back-to-back threads on the main page: (cause) http://i.imgur.com/eahLc.jpg (effect) http://i.imgur.com/dsyQe.jpg |
| 05:37.29 | kd3 | also, good thing I don't have to drive tomorrow (later today). the s-word is falling out of the sky and I get the feeling the local news media had a field day before I got home |
| 05:44.46 | Mr_Rabies | do you mean sandwiches |
| 05:44.59 | kd3 | sure. let's go with that |
| 05:45.28 | Mr_Rabies | you moved out of ATL right |
| 05:46.36 | kd3 | in the next week or so |
| 05:57.07 | Mr_Rabies | ah |
| 05:57.14 | Mr_Rabies | so i now know why you say that :p |
| 05:57.55 | Mr_Rabies | i mean, it makes sense that our snow preparedness kind of sucks but it really, genuinely shuts down basically the whole state when it snows because no salt goes down |
| 05:58.11 | Mr_Rabies | and it just turns into a slip 'n' slide |
| 06:01.19 | *** part/#wowuidev Seerah (~RyanNL@adsl-74-226-98-201.mem.bellsouth.net) |
| 06:03.13 | Esamynn | sounds like fun |
| 06:05.55 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (~Kaydeethr@wowwiki/Kaydeethree) |
| 06:25.03 | Shirik | btw |
| 06:25.04 | Shirik | MERRY CHRISTMAS |
| 06:27.06 | Semlar | what did you get me |
| 06:30.28 | Mr_Rabies | i got you a fisker |
| 06:30.52 | Mr_Rabies | unfortunately it escaped into the wild and was last seen hauling ass down the interstate on foot at about 80 mph |
| 06:36.36 | Semlar | did you keep the receipt |
| 06:37.31 | Mr_Rabies | i bought it from this googly-eyed octogenarian in chinatown with a bum leg |
| 06:38.57 | Semlar | are you saying i can't take it back |
| 06:41.19 | Mr_Rabies | well you could try, but he said something along the lines of "freeeee, finally, i'm freeee!" and then collapsed into a pile of bones, which then became dust and blew away |
| 06:43.20 | karl_w_w | do paracetamol tablets have a use by date? |
| 06:46.39 | Semlar | you can't just buy a new bottle of tylenol? |
| 06:46.45 | Mr_Rabies | about how old do you think they are? :O |
| 06:48.00 | Semlar | apparently it breaks down into something that isn't that great for your liver |
| 06:51.59 | karl_w_w | i havent bought them yet :P |
| 06:53.08 | Mr_Rabies | most medicine just gets weaker over time, but often is at near 100% effectiveness for even years after the expiry date |
| 06:53.21 | Semlar | i don't think it's that great for your liver in the first place |
| 07:20.29 | *** join/#wowuidev iShirik (~Shirik@WoWUIDev/WoWIStaff/Norganna/StatisticalEngineer/Shirik) |
| 07:20.30 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o iShirik] by ChanServ |
| 07:23.49 | karl_w_w | im loving these new coca cola bottle caps |
| 07:26.45 | Ackis | https://dailyspin.sn.eamobile.com/ free games from EA for the iOS if you have an iphone or the like |
| 07:28.23 | karl_w_w | but maybe they are an australia only thing cos google isnt turning up any matches |
| 07:33.01 | Ackis | I think Steam is throttling me :( |
| 07:33.12 | *** join/#wowuidev Neffi (~Neffi@pool-98-116-218-107.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
| 07:37.16 | iShirik | How dare you play that many games |
| 07:41.36 | Ackis | I decided to download 90% of them all at once :P |
| 07:43.19 | Semlar | oh god, my script has labeled every cave in the game "the den" |
| 07:43.32 | Semlar | or "the cleft" |
| 07:44.00 | Semlar | i think i may have miscalculated something |
| 07:48.38 | Semlar | http://i.imgur.com/sdPIc.jpg well it.. sort of works.. |
| 07:51.01 | karl_w_w | Semlar loves clefts |
| 07:51.43 | Semlar | i may have accidentally assigned every object with the same model the same name |
| 07:52.57 | Semlar | i was trying to label the buildings with the zone text you get when you walk into them |
| 07:57.06 | Semlar | on the plus side, i'm pretty sure my coordinates are more or less correct |
| 07:57.37 | karl_w_w | how does it decide where to put it for large places |
| 07:57.41 | karl_w_w | like darnassus |
| 07:58.11 | Semlar | entire zones can be one WMO |
| 07:58.30 | Semlar | i think all the instances are |
| 07:58.59 | *** join/#wowuidev iShirik (~Shirik@WoWUIDev/WoWIStaff/Norganna/StatisticalEngineer/Shirik) |
| 07:59.00 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o iShirik] by ChanServ |
| 08:01.07 | Semlar | you have the root object and then you have a group that goes along with it that defines all the little objects that go inside of it |
| 08:01.46 | Semlar | i'm fairly sure i accurately cracked the root object's placement |
| 08:01.51 | Fisker | you mean merry fiskermas iShirik |
| 08:02.15 | Semlar | they don't use the same coordinate system for the WMOs as the in-game coordinates |
| 08:02.34 | Semlar | which is extremely confusing |
| 08:02.56 | wereHamster | they did it on purpose |
| 08:05.09 | Semlar | :[ |
| 08:06.13 | Semlar | i can't tell if they have random objects strewn out in the middle of the ocean or if my coordinates are wrong for some areas |
| 08:09.23 | Semlar | http://i.imgur.com/V3OvE.jpg that CLEARLY says DO NOT USE |
| 08:10.16 | Fisker | did you die Semlar ? |
| 08:10.55 | Semlar | not that i'm aware of |
| 08:11.53 | Semlar | these names are useless if i can't narrow down which object they actually belong to |
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| 08:44.59 | Semlar | http://i.imgur.com/NPqKj.jpg ..that cave better be called the cleft because i'm done for the night |
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| 09:33.30 | Neffi | Semlar: I believe the coorinate system is relative to the 3D plane of the entire instance. In which case, every zone has a given offset. Match up a WMO object to a real-world object and you've got a chart. |
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| 09:51.48 | karl_w_w | do you often talk to people who are asleep Neffi? That's very needy :P |
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| 12:02.26 | karl_w_w | been trying to get a screenshot for the icy veins competition but the weather in the place where i wanna take it has been horrible the whole time |
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| 13:18.55 | Adys | Antiarc: ping |
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| 13:57.20 | Adys | if (password.Length > 16) |
| 13:57.21 | Adys | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:57.29 | Adys | 16 characters outta be enough for errybody. |
| 13:57.34 | stuf | wait what |
| 13:57.38 | Maldivia | heh |
| 13:57.52 | Adys | I knew about this but being reminded hurts |
| 13:58.08 | Maldivia | at least it's not 7 :) |
| 13:58.34 | Adys | Also I didn't paste the third line to avoid giving people heart attacks |
| 13:58.35 | Adys | return password.ToUpperInvariant(); |
| 13:59.54 | Maldivia | Adys: sounds like the LM hash, although that's a null-padded/truncated 14-byte uppercase password, that's hash 7 bytes at a time :P |
| 14:00.18 | Adys | no this is the bnet auth scheme |
| 14:01.13 | Adys | case-insensitive passwords that silently max out at 16 chars |
| 14:01.28 | Adys | in other news we have authenticators so we're secure. |
| 14:05.15 | Maldivia | but the uppercase and 16 char cap isn't exactly new - we've known that for years :) |
| 14:10.43 | Fisker | i'm gonna verbally harass you for the next 30 days Adys |
| 14:11.17 | Fisker | why are you upset at Battle.net's password policy ? |
| 14:14.20 | karl_w_w | why are you like this Fisker? |
| 14:15.07 | Fisker | why do you do this karl_w_w ? |
| 14:15.38 | Fisker | hey haste |
| 14:16.11 | karl_w_w | because I am a curious individual Fisker |
| 14:18.12 | karl_w_w | hell yeah, 1 hour 42 mins in pet battle queue |
| 14:25.22 | Neffi | The better question is, why do many high-profile systems place arbitrary restrictions on the security of their authentication? |
| 14:37.19 | zenzelezz | "Geneticists have been asked to study the DNA of Adam Lanza, the Connecticut man whose shooting rampage killed 27 people, including an entire first grade class. The study, which experts believe may be the first of its kind, is expected to be looking for abnormalities or mutations in Lanza's DNA." |
| 14:37.39 | zenzelezz | while it would be wonderful if there was such a mutation, it sounds like grasping at straws to avoid the "our society sucks" conclusion |
| 14:43.42 | nevcairiel | arent they always trying to find a gene that makes someone a sociopath or shit like that |
| 14:44.35 | zenzelezz | yeah, probably |
| 14:44.56 | Maldivia | and what would happen if they found such a gene... would they start screening for it? |
| 14:47.48 | nevcairiel | how do you call someone that discriminates based on your genes? :d |
| 14:48.32 | Maldivia | genophobe? |
| 14:48.39 | haste | hey Fisker |
| 14:48.54 | Maldivia | ohh wait, that's fear of sex |
| 14:49.23 | karl_w_w | Firefox can't find the server at www.google.com. |
| 14:49.27 | karl_w_w | the internet is broken |
| 14:49.45 | karl_w_w | break out the emergency rations |
| 14:50.46 | nevcairiel | if you do it in race, you're a racist, if you do it in sex, you're a sexist, so... genist? :P |
| 14:53.32 | Fisker | wanna listen to me fart haste ? |
| 14:57.18 | zenzelezz | "He got his eyes from his mother, and his pathologically homicidal maniac gene from his father" |
| 15:00.26 | Adys | anyone knows what language the new armory is written in? |
| 15:02.07 | karl_w_w | english |
| 15:02.12 | karl_w_w | budumtiss |
| 15:04.25 | Fisker | what new armory? |
| 15:06.00 | karl_w_w | 2 hours 30 in pet bet queue what a boss |
| 15:06.33 | nevcairiel | you're not supposed to bet on your pets D: |
| 15:06.34 | *** join/#wowuidev mckenziemc (~Mark@adsl-69-106-181-122.dsl.chi2ca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 15:07.10 | Neffi | Wasn't the concept that genes translate directly into attrbitues discredited long ago? |
| 15:07.34 | nevcairiel | they cant really prove it either way yet |
| 15:08.23 | Neffi | From what I know about biology, it's *way* more complicated than that |
| 15:08.45 | Neffi | even finding a group of genes that tends towards sociopathic development, it's still not definitive |
| 15:09.11 | karl_w_w | if you mean attributes as in attributes, obviously not there is a direct link |
| 15:09.13 | haste | nah Fisker |
| 15:09.21 | Neffi | Hell all of our DNA probably tells horror stories about us that never actually came to fruition |
| 15:10.14 | nevcairiel | there are plenty of inactive parts in the DNA |
| 15:11.04 | haste | doctor who episode comes to mind~ |
| 15:12.34 | nevcairiel | lazarus :d |
| 15:14.29 | haste | ping pong |
| 15:19.11 | karl_w_w | I think Fisker might have been amused when he was a child |
| 15:26.05 | Fisker | why mad? |
| 15:28.18 | Jamash | according to star trek the next generation, humans have latent spider dna |
| 15:29.36 | Jamash | fisker's mother was frightened by a hybrid electric vehicle when she was pregnant with him |
| 15:29.49 | Fisker | ok Jamash |
| 15:29.50 | Fisker | mad? |
| 15:29.58 | Jamash | madly in love |
| 15:30.01 | Jamash | let's run away fisker |
| 15:30.06 | Fisker | sure |
| 15:30.07 | Jamash | leave all this behind |
| 15:30.25 | Jamash | and travel to antarctica to find the entrance to the hollow earth |
| 15:30.45 | Jamash | wait that was a bad rudy rucker novel |
| 15:31.27 | Jamash | I mean let's run away to anaheim california and conduct electronic espionage on blizzard and sell the results to EA |
| 15:31.46 | Jamash | man I really ought to eat breakfast before trying to be funny |
| 15:31.58 | Fisker | derp |
| 15:32.08 | Fisker | installing network drivers over rdp is a good idea |
| 15:32.16 | Jamash | lolololololol |
| 15:33.48 | karl_w_w | it is a perfectly fine idea, if the machine has 2 network interfaces |
| 15:34.48 | Jamash | not if they both use the same driver |
| 15:36.56 | karl_w_w | i'll use both your drivers if you're not careful |
| 15:38.48 | pompy | http://i.imgur.com/so8Pb.jpg |
| 15:39.37 | *** join/#wowuidev SNiLD (snild@nurmijarvi.net) |
| 15:42.43 | Maldivia | what is this... 1995? |
| 15:47.53 | Fisker | well maybe he meant mobile resolution |
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| 15:49.25 | Jamash | so what's the current best auction addon |
| 15:49.36 | Jamash | I liked auctioneer but I heard the maintainer quit |
| 15:49.43 | Jamash | er auctionator? |
| 15:49.46 | Jamash | what the heck was that |
| 15:50.29 | Neffi | Auctioneer is developed by a group |
| 15:50.32 | Neffi | and it's still active |
| 15:50.34 | Jamash | yeah I know |
| 15:50.37 | Jamash | I meant the other one |
| 15:50.41 | Neffi | auctionator? |
| 15:51.15 | Neffi | it was just updated a couple weeks ago |
| 15:51.19 | Jamash | cool |
| 15:52.14 | Jamash | installs auctionator |
| 15:52.38 | *** join/#wowuidev VIad (~Vlad@128.121.45.31.customer.cdi.no) |
| 15:53.42 | Jamash | sup dragon |
| 15:54.10 | *** join/#wowuidev SNiLD_ (snild@nurmijarvi.net) |
| 15:54.17 | Jamash | see vlad -> vlad dracul -> vlad the dragon |
| 15:54.24 | Jamash | I really should eat breakfast |
| 15:56.16 | VIad | Jamash ;) |
| 15:59.13 | Adys | what's the pet's "breed" in the context of battle pets? |
| 15:59.27 | VIad | it has something to do with what stats it will get |
| 15:59.43 | Adys | ah |
| 15:59.45 | VIad | more attack, speed, health, e.g. |
| 15:59.51 | Adys | its whether its better in atk/spd/hp? |
| 15:59.52 | Adys | yeah |
| 15:59.53 | Jamash | it's something for collectors to obsess over and drive themselves insane |
| 16:00.07 | Adys | interesting |
| 16:00.12 | Adys | is there a list of breeds? |
| 16:00.16 | VIad | yeah |
| 16:00.23 | Adys | well where is it. |
| 16:00.57 | Xandr | http://www.warcraftpets.com/wow-pet-battles/#breeds |
| 16:01.01 | Jamash | so I just found Penate's Penance Producing Pistol in my DK's inventory |
| 16:01.07 | *** join/#wowuidev kagaro (~kagaro@cpe-173-095-140-190.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 16:01.09 | Jamash | no idea where or when it dropped |
| 16:01.12 | VIad | http://petsear.ch/Breeds |
| 16:01.19 | Adys | ... there are male and female breeds? |
| 16:01.25 | Xandr | Yeo |
| 16:01.28 | Jamash | pay it no mind |
| 16:01.38 | VIad | seems so, Adys |
| 16:01.44 | Adys | holy shit I really need to start doing DBCs again |
| 16:01.53 | VIad | :P |
| 16:01.55 | Xandr | There have been hints at possible cross-breeding at a later point. Currently the gender is irrelevant |
| 16:02.07 | Jamash | I think some obviously male or female pets can have breeds of the opposite gender |
| 16:02.14 | Jamash | so it's not particularly meaningful |
| 16:02.23 | zenzelezz | Adys: I DBC what you did there |
| 16:04.03 | Jamash | ~lart zenzelezz |
| 16:04.03 | purl | forces zenzelezz to use Outlook Express |
| 16:13.50 | karl_w_w | where can i see the official mists of pandaria features? |
| 16:14.15 | Jamash | sometimes I'm honestly embarassed at how awesome hunters are now that they got rid of minimum range and ammo and having to stand still ever |
| 16:16.39 | Jamash | karl_w_w: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/mists-of-pandaria/feature/ |
| 16:20.32 | karl_w_w | thanks qtpie |
| 16:22.14 | Jamash | yw pumpkin lips |
| 16:24.40 | mckenziemc | o.o |
| 16:30.21 | VIad | do you think next expansion will have fully voiced main story quests? |
| 16:30.39 | VIad | I kind of miss that, personally helps me get more involved with the story when I hear dialog. |
| 16:30.58 | VIad | was shame it was so little of it in the valley, I liked it. |
| 16:34.53 | Jamash | I don't like full voice |
| 16:34.58 | Jamash | I listen to podcasts while playing games |
| 16:35.19 | Jamash | also everyone will skip it |
| 16:35.45 | VIad | ehm, you wouldn't need to listen to them if you don't want to |
| 16:35.46 | Jamash | I also like it when, say, the Lich King speaks up it's like WOAH DAMN |
| 16:35.56 | Jamash | it's something special |
| 16:36.57 | Jamash | I wish they'd fix unique items and void storage :-/ |
| 16:38.14 | karl_w_w | not broken == can't fix |
| 16:40.03 | Jamash | I wish they'd allow me to put unique items in void storage |
| 16:40.38 | karl_w_w | they can't, because then you'd be able to have more than one of them |
| 16:44.03 | Jamash | pfft |
| 16:46.06 | Jamash | there's a difference between "can't" and "don't want to" |
| 16:46.56 | End_ | I think those restrictions are what seperates it from regular storage |
| 16:48.03 | End_ | what I mean is those restrictions mean that items in storage take less space and so forth, and to remove any of them would mean they might as well just add more bank slots |
| 16:48.05 | Jamash | what separates it from regular storage is they don't store gems/enchants/reforges/transmogs |
| 16:48.19 | Jamash | I don't see how that prevents them checking for uniqueness |
| 16:48.28 | End_ | probably not loaded unless you visit |
| 16:48.46 | Jamash | not an insurmountable obstacle though |
| 16:49.20 | Jamash | anyway blizzard's technical limitations aren't my problem to solve, I just wish they'd solve them |
| 16:49.44 | Jamash | wishes don't have to be practical |
| 16:49.50 | End_ | I suppose that's true |
| 16:51.33 | End_ | my only wish is that it was bigger, but I have a lot of old tier and pvp sets |
| 16:52.04 | End_ | at least my bank is manageable now, although I had to destroy about half of the random toys they give you while leveling in pandaria |
| 16:53.16 | *** join/#wowuidev Arrowmaster (~arrow@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/ResponsibleForEverythingAndNothing/Arrowmaster) |
| 16:54.42 | karl_w_w | they're not technical limitations, they're limitations by design |
| 16:55.14 | Jamash | they're technical limitations by design |
| 16:55.27 | karl_w_w | if they made it easily accessible on the database side it would be no different to regular storage |
| 16:55.57 | karl_w_w | but that wasn't the point, the point is to give us more storage for long term stuff that is cheap for them to implement |
| 16:56.40 | Neffi | Of course they turn Booty Bay into a PvP slaughterfest on New Year's |
| 16:56.51 | Neffi | Tempt me to play WoW instead of going out like a normal person |
| 16:59.10 | Jamash | yes, and stripping out all the mods is what makes it cheap |
| 16:59.34 | Jamash | does checking for uniques really increase the cost that much? |
| 16:59.49 | Jamash | even if it does, I don't care |
| 16:59.50 | Jamash | I wants it |
| 17:00.02 | ZorbaTHut | jamash, while I don't know Blizzard's server architecture, I'm guessing that keeping the list of uniques in memory is the expensive part |
| 17:00.23 | *** join/#wowuidev rtharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht) |
| 17:01.20 | Jamash | see previous statement re: caring |
| 17:01.25 | karl_w_w | Jamash: put your unique stuff in the bank |
| 17:01.32 | *** join/#wowuidev Mike-N-Go (~Mike-N-Go@206.162.237.238) |
| 17:01.41 | ZorbaTHut | do you care enough to give up a different feature that you also really want? it's always a tradeoff |
| 17:01.53 | karl_w_w | if you have something which should have been changed to unique-equipped when they changed them all, report it |
| 17:01.58 | karl_w_w | else QQ less |
| 17:02.02 | Jamash | I'll give up the dance studio |
| 17:02.11 | Jamash | karl_w_w: bank's full |
| 17:02.33 | karl_w_w | then take something that isn't unique out of the bank and put it in void storage |
| 17:02.39 | karl_w_w | or buy bigger bags |
| 17:02.47 | karl_w_w | or get a bank alt |
| 17:03.00 | karl_w_w | or get a bank alt with a personal guild bank |
| 17:03.22 | karl_w_w | or stop storing up pointless crap |
| 17:03.24 | Jamash | I have 11 characters and they're all in my guild |
| 17:03.43 | Jamash | and I want to put unique items in void storage |
| 17:03.48 | Jamash | and you can't stop me from wanting to |
| 17:04.13 | Jamash | one thing they could do is make fewer items pointlessly unique |
| 17:05.01 | Jamash | do quest items from quests you can only ever do once have to be unique? |
| 17:11.29 | *** join/#wowuidev bjelleklang (~chris@wikipedia/Bjelleklang) |
| 17:12.29 | *** join/#wowuidev oscarucb (~oscarucb@cpe-75-180-21-9.columbus.res.rr.com) |
| 17:16.35 | Jamash | is there an addon that show what artifacts I don't have from archaeology? |
| 17:19.24 | Jamash | found it, excavatinator |
| 17:29.46 | karl_w_w | Jamash I want my car to make toast |
| 17:29.54 | karl_w_w | and you can't stop me from wanting it to |
| 17:32.33 | Jamash | well that explains that issue I've been having |
| 17:32.47 | Jamash | apparently there was a 1-pixel gap between bazooka and the top of the screen |
| 17:32.58 | Jamash | which is why my tooltips kept disappearing erratically |
| 17:51.27 | *** join/#wowuidev A-KO (as@unaffiliated/a-ko) |
| 17:51.48 | karl_w_w | aw, the armory doesnt show companion pets' names anymore |
| 17:52.29 | karl_w_w | people were probably using it to find their opponents when it's meant to be anonymous |
| 17:53.47 | VIad | did you know a dbc contains scripts? |
| 17:53.50 | VIad | lua scripts |
| 18:07.25 | Neffi | The UI, no? |
| 18:07.37 | Neffi | It's gotta be stored somewhere. I doubt it's in WoW.exe |
| 18:07.54 | Shirik | the UI is in the mpq files |
| 18:08.18 | Neffi | Then what Lua scripts are in the DBCs? |
| 18:14.41 | VIad | scene scripts |
| 18:14.56 | VIad | SceneScript.db2 |
| 18:14.56 | Arrowmaster | dbc is datebase stuff, no scirpts there |
| 18:14.59 | VIad | :P |
| 18:17.51 | *** join/#wowuidev Elkano_ (~elkano@pool011.vpn.uni-saarland.de) |
| 18:17.52 | *** join/#wowuidev Elkano_ (~elkano@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Elkano) |
| 18:21.18 | VIad | making a viewer of that file so you can look yourself |
| 18:27.14 | A-KO | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pm7TLwFIh2c |
| 18:30.28 | *** join/#wowuidev harl (harl@dslb-092-073-088-198.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 18:30.37 | Kraps | Thunder_Child, ping |
| 18:30.44 | Thunder_Child | Kraps: pong |
| 18:31.24 | Kraps | is orcs must die 2 less aggravating and hopeless than the original? |
| 18:32.14 | End_ | hard to say...I played coop and some of the maps seemed like they would be annoying not as coop |
| 18:32.23 | Thunder_Child | Well, it's similar to the first, but then i didn't find it aggravating or hopeless |
| 18:34.01 | *** join/#wowuidev Iriel (~Iriel@173-8-135-209-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 18:34.02 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Iriel] by ChanServ |
| 18:34.47 | VIad | Neffi Shirik and Arrowmaster = http://vlacula.no-ip.com/wow/SceneScript.php |
| 18:36.30 | Arrowmaster | Kun Lai Summit - Horde Hub Swap Scene - Worker 06 - JSB looks like lua but has some stuff that makes it not lua |
| 18:36.53 | VIad | it's lua ;) |
| 18:37.25 | Arrowmaster | last line shouldnt be valid lua |
| 18:38.33 | Arrowmaster | same with 'Kun Lai Summit - Reclaiming the Thunder God - Init - Generic Actors 01 - JSB' it would throw an error |
| 18:39.33 | Arrowmaster | and 'Kun Lai Summit - Resurrecting the Thunder God - Init - Generic Actors 01 - JSB' are you sure you extracted these correctly? |
| 18:39.52 | VIad | ah |
| 18:40.30 | Arrowmaster | theres something with "Test - Alex's Battle Pet - Init Library" too |
| 18:40.45 | VIad | yes |
| 18:40.53 | Arrowmaster | a commented multiline string |
| 18:41.07 | VIad | my csv stops like that, probably a db2 > csv issue |
| 18:42.02 | Arrowmaster | i havent touched lua in so long yet im spotting this shit while scrolling, kinda funny |
| 18:42.51 | Arrowmaster | found more with this weird Despawn() syntax |
| 18:43.04 | Arrowmaster | "trogg01: Despawn()" |
| 18:43.12 | Arrowmaster | lua> trogg01: Despawn() |
| 18:43.12 | lua_bot | Arrowmaster: luabot:1: attempt to index global 'trogg01' (a nil value) |
| 18:43.22 | VIad | :P |
| 18:44.02 | Arrowmaster | lua> trogg01={} trogg01: Despawn() |
| 18:44.03 | lua_bot | Arrowmaster: luabot:1: attempt to call method 'Despawn' (a nil value) |
| 18:44.11 | Arrowmaster | it works? |
| 18:44.16 | Arrowmaster | dafuk |
| 18:44.17 | VIad | lua> local t={Test=function()return "Hello!"end} print( t: Test() ) |
| 18:44.17 | lua_bot | VIad: Hello! |
| 18:44.24 | Maldivia | lua> s="123" s : sub(1) |
| 18:44.24 | lua_bot | Maldivia: No output |
| 18:44.49 | Arrowmaster | lua> s="123" s: sub(1) |
| 18:44.50 | lua_bot | Arrowmaster: No output |
| 18:44.58 | Semlar | lua> ("123"):sub(1) |
| 18:44.59 | lua_bot | Semlar: 123 |
| 18:45.05 | Semlar | close enough |
| 18:45.13 | wereHamster | lua> s="123" s: sub(s, 1) |
| 18:45.13 | lua_bot | wereHamster: No output |
| 18:45.23 | Maldivia | lua> s="123" return s : sub(1) |
| 18:45.24 | lua_bot | Maldivia: 123 |
| 18:45.29 | Maldivia | better? |
| 18:45.33 | Arrowmaster | dafuk |
| 18:45.41 | Semlar | you have a space after your colon so |
| 18:46.01 | Semlar | i didn't think that would even work |
| 18:46.03 | Arrowmaster | batrick: dafuk |
| 18:46.16 | VIad | lua> local t="test" print( t: sub(2) ) |
| 18:46.17 | lua_bot | VIad: est |
| 18:46.24 | VIad | lua> print( ("test"): sub(2) ) |
| 18:46.24 | lua_bot | VIad: est |
| 18:46.25 | Semlar | evidently it does |
| 18:46.31 | VIad | lua> print( ("test") :sub(2) ) |
| 18:46.31 | lua_bot | VIad: est |
| 18:46.34 | VIad | lua> print( ("test") : sub(2) ) |
| 18:46.34 | lua_bot | VIad: est |
| 18:46.38 | VIad | lua> print( ("test") : sub(2) ) |
| 18:46.38 | lua_bot | VIad: est |
| 18:46.40 | VIad | :P |
| 18:46.48 | Semlar | appears to just ignore all whitespace |
| 18:46.52 | VIad | aye |
| 18:47.04 | Arrowmaster | batrick,Shirik: why does this work and who thought it was a good idea? |
| 18:47.09 | Maldivia | why wouldn't it? |
| 18:47.18 | Maldivia | lua> return string . sub |
| 18:47.18 | lua_bot | Maldivia: function: 0x9d76d28 |
| 18:47.39 | Arrowmaster | thats just silly |
| 18:47.45 | Maldivia | that's normal |
| 18:47.48 | foxlit | newlines are silly |
| 18:47.49 | Arrowmaster | SILLY |
| 18:47.53 | foxlit | all your code should be on one line. Or else. |
| 18:47.54 | Neffi | It could be that the particular scripts *do* throw errors |
| 18:47.58 | Neffi | and just aren't complete |
| 18:48.06 | Neffi | never implemented so never fixed |
| 18:48.34 | Neffi | See the Vector file. It's definitely Lua. |
| 18:48.58 | Neffi | Global functions: Mat |
| 18:48.59 | Neffi | h |
| 18:49.04 | Arrowmaster | i found where Wait() is defined, i still dont understand it |
| 18:49.15 | *** join/#wowuidev stolenlegacy (~stolenleg@unaffiliated/stolenlegacy) |
| 18:50.08 | Neffi | it seems to be the same as sleep |
| 18:50.16 | Arrowmaster | its not |
| 18:50.23 | Arrowmaster | it would be a very very bad thing if it was |
| 18:50.38 | Neffi | see: WaitForTrigger() |
| 18:50.51 | Neffi | calls WaitCondition as well |
| 18:51.04 | Neffi | thumbing through the scripts which play animations and shit, it's definitely a sleep timer |
| 18:51.37 | Neffi | it'll play a sound, WaitForTrigger for the music to end, Wait an additional N sec, and then do something else |
| 18:52.19 | Neffi | I don't think it's a very bad thing, these are obviously only used for cutscenes and other shit. All it's doing it asking the C backend to pause the thread. |
| 18:52.23 | VIad | I had a project course before summer, coded a custom C like language (syntax) and it was compiled by the C compiler, point is, we just ignored all whitespaces ;) |
| 18:52.29 | VIad | whitespaces are not a part of the language syntax |
| 18:52.50 | VIad | only place they are not ignored is in places like "function" <space> <rest of the thing here> |
| 18:52.52 | *** join/#wowuidev alestane (~alestane@c-174-63-97-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 18:52.53 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v alestane] by ChanServ |
| 18:52.59 | Neffi | suddenly python |
| 18:53.06 | Arrowmaster | Neffi: thats the thing, lua is not multithreaded |
| 18:53.10 | VIad | well "functionlol()" wouldn't work so |
| 18:53.25 | Arrowmaster | so is all this running in a different lua thread than the ui? |
| 18:53.27 | Neffi | Arrowmaster: It's obviously not running in the UI thread. It's not in the UI's environment else we'd see these functions. |
| 18:53.36 | Neffi | All the evidence suggests it is |
| 18:53.44 | Neffi | It's a thread specifically for cutscenes |
| 18:53.48 | Arrowmaster | weird shit to do |
| 18:54.16 | Neffi | I repeat those sentiments often when thumbing through FrameXML. I don't think this design is all that out-there |
| 18:54.51 | Neffi | I mean, it's simple and easy and they don't have to worry about the interns (if they have any) learning an infrastructure just to write cutscene scripts |
| 18:55.55 | Neffi | Also it could very well be auto-generated by their in-house tools |
| 18:56.05 | Neffi | so they don't care about it being "strange" to a programmer |
| 18:56.46 | Arrowmaster | looks too random to be auto-generated |
| 18:57.09 | Arrowmaster | ack a while loop |
| 18:57.18 | Neffi | Off an on |
| 18:57.25 | Neffi | some are very neat and almost robotic |
| 18:57.29 | Neffi | some are obviously hand made |
| 18:57.39 | Neffi | yeah, notice all the closures too |
| 18:57.47 | End_ | probably a lot of different people touch it |
| 18:57.53 | Neffi | WaitForTrigger creates a new closure each call |
| 18:59.06 | Arrowmaster | why isnt zoot here so i can scream and ask what sorcery this is |
| 18:59.09 | Neffi | Kind of insane how many lines of Lua code go into this game. I could only imagine how huge the C source is. |
| 18:59.47 | Neffi | I might point out, this all seems to be new to MOP |
| 19:00.06 | Arrowmaster | yeah he wouldnt know anyway |
| 19:00.45 | Semlar | welp, that serves me right for expecting the area id to always be filled in and correct |
| 19:01.01 | Semlar | this column isn't quite as reliable as i expected |
| 19:02.37 | Neffi | Don't you love when you AoE down a group of 20 mobs and get ONE quest item? |
| 19:02.49 | Semlar | no |
| 19:04.05 | Semlar | regular doodads don't have names right |
| 19:04.15 | Arrowmaster | haha i thought something about that price looked wrong http://store.steampowered.com/sub/18714/ |
| 19:04.45 | Arrowmaster | bundle is more than individual |
| 19:07.32 | VIad | I think it's good that the scenes are scripted locally |
| 19:07.38 | VIad | less load on the server with useless stuff :P |
| 19:12.28 | VIad | http://vlacula.no-ip.com/wow/SceneScript.php#134 "Jade Forest - Horde Intro Scene - Init 02 - JSB" script shows a battle scene from zeppelin |
| 19:12.43 | VIad | it uses npcIDs but those aren't cached by the game, as wowhead has no records of these units :P |
| 19:13.14 | VIad | "Alliance Crewman 01" 62634 is a 404 page on wowhead :P |
| 19:14.03 | Neffi | maybe it's not using real npcs? |
| 19:14.10 | Neffi | just objects that animate like NPCs |
| 19:14.27 | Neffi | I mean, NPCs are a server construct. The cutscenes are probably done totally locally. |
| 19:15.17 | VIad | there are scripts that use model paths or displayIDs |
| 19:15.58 | VIad | but when you involve the creatureID is is probably the npcID as well, but since it's a cutscene all that happens is server tells it what displayID to use, or it looks up the displayID from creatureID locally, i.e. the creature is never loaded from the server, at least no cached like a normal creature |
| 19:17.24 | VIad | fun thing, but you could probably make a movie using this scene scripting engine :P |
| 19:17.30 | VIad | blizzard, please allow us to make movies |
| 19:18.05 | Kraps | think i should uninstall wow |
| 19:18.18 | Arrowmaster | i should buy a boat |
| 19:18.18 | zenzelezz | VIad: "make movies" in what sense? |
| 19:18.48 | VIad | if we could get access to this local side scene script engine, we could make our own movies, spawn various actors, move the camera, make them say things and such :P |
| 19:18.52 | Kraps | Arrowmaster, but i can do my thing right now, can you buy a boat? |
| 19:19.01 | VIad | Kraps: why uninstall? :< |
| 19:19.19 | Kraps | havent played in a while |
| 19:19.28 | Kraps | and i have many new games |
| 19:19.32 | Kraps | thanks steam |
| 19:19.44 | VIad | you have harddrive space issues? that's so pre 2010 |
| 19:20.10 | VIad | zenzelezz: you read our chat about the scene scripts found in the dbc? ;) |
| 19:20.17 | Arrowmaster | you dont know the people in this channel well if you think we dont have harddrive space issues |
| 19:20.23 | Kraps | ^ |
| 19:20.51 | VIad | how many bluray movie torrents have you downloaded? :P |
| 19:21.01 | Arrowmaster | today? two |
| 19:21.15 | VIad | and how many harddrives on 1T+ do you have? :P |
| 19:21.32 | Shirik | warning C4552: 'string.sub' has no effect; expected statement with side effect |
| 19:21.33 | Arrowmaster | in this room? 11 |
| 19:21.40 | Shirik | um |
| 19:21.50 | Shirik | well apaprently I was scrolled up a few hours |
| 19:21.53 | VIad | and why don't you clean old stuff from your drives? |
| 19:21.56 | Shirik | or an hour |
| 19:22.01 | Kraps | i only have a 1TB HDD |
| 19:22.02 | VIad | :d |
| 19:22.15 | Arrowmaster | im an archivist, i archive the internet |
| 19:22.20 | VIad | gl with that |
| 19:22.23 | Shirik | I only have 2TB at SSD speed :( |
| 19:22.36 | zenzelezz | same here, my archive focuses on porn |
| 19:22.38 | VIad | I only got 1TB drive and I clean the stuff I download regulary, pointless to keep everything. |
| 19:23.26 | haste | 16TB raid in the media center and about 4TB in the computer |
| 19:23.41 | Arrowmaster | ~haste++ |
| 19:23.55 | zenzelezz | that should be enough, until they start making >1080p porn |
| 19:23.55 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (~Kaydeethr@wowwiki/Kaydeethree) |
| 19:24.00 | haste | there's also three other computers here on top of that :P |
| 19:24.02 | VIad | if you download movies at least download and archive the 2gb versions, quality is good enough :) |
| 19:24.19 | Semlar | i only watch things once |
| 19:24.31 | VIad | Semlar: usually me too :) |
| 19:24.42 | VIad | tbh the only thing taking 500GB is my steam folder, hehe |
| 19:24.44 | Semlar | and if i really wanted to watch it again i'd just redownload it |
| 19:24.55 | Arrowmaster | i rewatch stuff all the time |
| 19:25.10 | haste | downloading takes too long for bluray stuff |
| 19:25.25 | VIad | haste: not if you think the 2gb files is good enough :p |
| 19:25.38 | Arrowmaster | they arent |
| 19:25.42 | haste | we're too close to the TV for that |
| 19:25.51 | Semlar | i have a 23 inch monitor so i'm not too concerned about that |
| 19:26.05 | haste | 55" \:D/ |
| 19:26.15 | VIad | hehe, even on the tv that I almost never use, looks good :) |
| 19:26.17 | Arrowmaster | 2gb files tend to be xvid so shitty quality |
| 19:26.23 | VIad | filesize doesn't mean quality is bad, not if encoded right |
| 19:26.31 | VIad | source matters and encoding matters |
| 19:26.56 | VIad | you can have a 4gb file and compare it to a 2gb and find that the 4gb is worse, if done wrong |
| 19:27.13 | haste | "if done wrong" |
| 19:27.20 | Arrowmaster | thats not typically the case with scene releases though |
| 19:27.40 | VIad | I find the scene guys to be better at encoding, than many online ondemand rentals :P |
| 19:28.20 | VIad | compared a rental once with a download I did, sole aim was to compare, took picture of same scene and time and couldn't tell a difference, except it was a 4.4gb something versus a 2.2gb ish file :D |
| 19:28.46 | haste | good for you :) |
| 19:30.00 | Shirik | http://lorizzle.nl/?feed=1 |
| 19:31.34 | Neffi | Holy shit Frost Bomb is epic |
| 19:32.50 | *** join/#wowuidev tabletennis (~thubble@d154-20-100-220.bchsia.telus.net) |
| 19:34.50 | VIad | someone hack the scene engine and expose the api to us :D |
| 19:38.16 | alestane | Morning, Cairenn. |
| 19:38.20 | alestane | Have a silly. |
| 19:38.21 | Cairenn | Hi hi |
| 19:38.25 | alestane | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uuCNAwXGaQ |
| 19:38.32 | Cairenn | Sillies are good |
| 19:41.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Ketho (~ngsc@ip565063bd.direct-adsl.nl) |
| 19:45.14 | alestane | Gotta reboot |
| 19:50.43 | Kraps | uninstalling D3 still keeps your chars right |
| 19:53.31 | g0urra | no |
| 19:53.40 | karl_w_w | <Arrowmaster> 2gb files tend to be xvid so shitty quality <- wtf is with this? |
| 19:53.52 | karl_w_w | why do people have this fantasy that xvid is smaller? |
| 19:54.28 | Arrowmaster | huh? |
| 19:54.59 | Kraps | ok g0urra |
| 19:55.11 | karl_w_w | you say that 2gb files tend to be xvid and I want to know why |
| 19:55.41 | Arrowmaster | karl_w_w: a 2gb or smaller file is probably an xvid release at 480p or less |
| 19:56.07 | karl_w_w | o.O |
| 19:56.15 | Arrowmaster | 3 to 5 tends to be 720p h264, 5+ tends to be 1080p h264 |
| 19:56.18 | karl_w_w | are you living in 2003? |
| 19:56.25 | Arrowmaster | no im talking about scene releases |
| 19:56.48 | nevcairiel | the codec is irrelevant, but 2gb cant hold great quality for a full-length movie |
| 19:57.10 | nevcairiel | maybe with the next generation codecs that will be possible |
| 19:57.11 | karl_w_w | depends what you call great |
| 19:57.13 | Arrowmaster | 2gb is fine for a 480p h264 |
| 19:57.25 | nevcairiel | 480p is not "great" for me :P |
| 19:57.29 | Arrowmaster | no its not |
| 19:57.58 | Arrowmaster | but there is a noticeable difference in same sized 480p files between xvid and h264 |
| 19:58.10 | karl_w_w | obviously |
| 19:58.25 | karl_w_w | because h.264 is approxiamately twice as good |
| 19:58.34 | Arrowmaster | right |
| 19:58.49 | nevcairiel | h264 is just much more efficient, and hevc (next gen codec) will be even more efficient allowing good quality in 2gb, but for my taste, today 2gb is not enough :p |
| 19:58.51 | Arrowmaster | but the scene doesnt do 480p h264, only p2p groups |
| 19:59.22 | karl_w_w | why would anyone do xvid anything? |
| 19:59.33 | nevcairiel | actually, scene changed SD releases to h264 mp4, at least for TV, not sure about movies |
| 19:59.51 | Arrowmaster | yes for tv only |
| 19:59.51 | nevcairiel | before it was xvid avi |
| 20:00.22 | Arrowmaster | i actually havent seen a scene release of anything not in 720p for a while |
| 20:00.30 | Arrowmaster | but i dont keep a close eye on the movie scene |
| 20:13.14 | *** join/#wowuidev pantsninja (~Syrae@c-69-181-66-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 20:17.45 | VIad | Argent Dawn guys are still wtf awesome ;D |
| 20:17.50 | VIad | like the silithus guards |
| 20:18.01 | VIad | they run at 200% melee with nets and lots of stuns and chain aggro :D |
| 20:18.07 | VIad | it's insanely awesome |
| 20:19.37 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (~Kaydeethr@wowwiki/Kaydeethree) |
| 20:19.42 | *** join/#wowuidev brykrys (~chatzilla@cpc4-craw2-0-0-cust16.16-3.cable.virginmedia.com) |
| 20:19.43 | *** join/#wowuidev brykrys (~chatzilla@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Dev/Brykrys) |
| 20:20.03 | *** join/#wowuidev Xuerian (~Xuerian@23-25-122-114-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 20:29.52 | *** join/#wowuidev olafski (olafski@53558C29.cm-6-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) |
| 20:30.01 | olafski | good day! |
| 20:30.42 | olafski | guys/girls, I'm horrible at the actual windowing stuff of addons.. I seem to have an issue with my quest frame, it's stuck at the top of the screen, is there anything I can do to find out what's causing that? |
| 20:31.44 | Semlar | do you want to know what's causing it or just how to move it |
| 20:32.13 | olafski | I downloaded an addon to move it, but even then I can only move it around the top ~150 pixels of the screen |
| 20:32.21 | olafski | (well, the header is stuck in that range, the rest moves along with it) |
| 20:32.41 | olafski | I'd like to both know what's causing it, and how to solve it, since it's probably something I changed in my addons =) |
| 20:32.52 | olafski | wouldn't want to force this on my users.. |
| 20:33.11 | Semlar | use /framestack to figure out what the frame is called |
| 20:33.39 | Semlar | then i guess you could try searching through your files for the frame |
| 20:33.59 | olafski | nothing special there.. WatchFrame/WatchFrameHeader.. guess I'll do a find in files :) |
| 20:34.36 | Semlar | you're looking for something like frame:SetPoint if it's done in lua |
| 20:35.15 | olafski | but if the frame is movable, shouldn't that issue be fixed already? it seems more like a "clamp to screen" kind of issue, except the bounding box for the frame appears to be too large |
| 20:35.23 | karl_w_w | the watchframe is anchored to the minimap |
| 20:36.32 | olafski | hmm. it overlaps the minimap at the moment, highly annoying |
| 20:36.44 | Semlar | i think SetClampRectInsets limits where it can be dragged |
| 20:37.01 | karl_w_w | and it's not movable by default, usually moving it at all is recipe for disaster |
| 20:37.31 | olafski | aye karl_w_w.. I didn't want to, just installed an addon to enable moving |
| 20:37.32 | Semlar | yeah something he's running is moving it |
| 20:37.38 | olafski | but it seems only Chinchilla is referring to the watchframe |
| 20:37.49 | olafski | so I guess I'll look in the options for that one.. getting closer =) |
| 20:38.38 | Semlar | uh, disable chinchilla and see if it's still in the wrong spot |
| 20:40.12 | olafski | hm yes that seems to have moved it back to a more reasonable position |
| 20:40.46 | olafski | think I can fix it in the options by disabling clamp to screen. Seems like a less-than-ideal solution, though I think I can conclude that it wasn't an addon that I wrote that's interfering =) |
| 20:43.05 | olafski | thanks Semlar and karl_w_w! |
| 20:43.22 | Semlar | you could probably just call SetClampRectInsets somehow to clear it |
| 20:43.32 | Semlar | instead of removing SetClampedToScreen |
| 20:44.02 | Semlar | maybe |
| 20:44.13 | Semlar | i don't know if that's actually what's preventing it from moving outside the box |
| 20:44.13 | *** join/#wowuidev isman (~drag@mna75-2-82-67-196-34.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 20:44.13 | olafski | I reduced the height of the frame now |
| 20:44.18 | olafski | wonder if that'll stay when I relog :P |
| 20:44.41 | olafski | guess not. hmm |
| 20:45.04 | Semlar | anything you do is probably going to have to be applied every time you load |
| 20:45.25 | olafski | doh, Chinchilla actually just has a slider that sets the height.. pretty sure I didn't change that though |
| 20:46.39 | Neffi | This is pretty awesome http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/12/single-molecule-motor-sits-on-a-single-atom-ball-bearing/ |
| 20:46.44 | VIad | Semlar: I think your cooldown addon taints the watch frame, but can't say for sure. just tried it when leveling for a little and I got action blocked issues, didn't get those before :D |
| 20:47.01 | Semlar | highly improbable! |
| 20:47.09 | Semlar | as bad as i am at this |
| 20:47.12 | Neffi | Sem, you'd be surprised |
| 20:47.26 | Neffi | I was tainting the glyph UI just by hiding the MainMenuBar and unregistering all its events |
| 20:47.32 | Neffi | how the fuck that occured, I still don't know |
| 20:47.43 | Neffi | I gave up debugging it and installed Bartender to hide the bar for me |
| 20:47.45 | Semlar | well, the version online might be leaking a global underscore |
| 20:47.48 | VIad | :D |
| 20:47.50 | Semlar | i haven't checked |
| 20:47.56 | *** join/#wowuidev Athrun-- (~drag@mna75-2-82-67-196-34.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 20:47.59 | VIad | you have a local _ Semlar |
| 20:48.00 | Semlar | i'm pretty sure i just added local _ at the top though |
| 20:48.07 | Neffi | bad |
| 20:48.11 | Semlar | because i didn't feel like fixing the line |
| 20:48.16 | Neffi | that catches your issues, but it doesn't stop them |
| 20:48.23 | Semlar | sure it does |
| 20:48.25 | Neffi | if your locals are leaking, you should know about it |
| 20:48.25 | Semlar | problem solved forever |
| 20:48.40 | Semlar | i do know about it, i wrote a comment on the line that does it |
| 20:48.52 | Neffi | luac.exe has a commandline parameter to spit out a textual representation of bytecode |
| 20:48.53 | Semlar | i just didn't fix it |
| 20:49.01 | Neffi | it's VERY easy to debug all global accesses with it |
| 20:49.13 | Neffi | you just ctrl-F "getglobal" |
| 20:49.25 | Semlar | i really don't think i did anything that should be tainting in that addon |
| 20:49.42 | Semlar | it just makes a frame on top of the action buttons it doesn't actually modify anything |
| 20:49.59 | Neffi | It's also kind of useful to see how your code translates into actual VM instructions. It can help with optimization in edge-cases. |
| 20:50.25 | *** join/#wowuidev mckenziemc1 (~Mark@69.106.181.122) |
| 20:52.58 | VIad | curious tough, is it supposed to taint and break when you use stuff like, creating a frame with the parent being the secure frame? or making it SetAllPoints and such |
| 20:53.35 | Neffi | no |
| 20:53.53 | Neffi | taint happens when you set a variable |
| 20:54.26 | Neffi | it permanently marks that variable as insecure, so when any secure execution paths touch it, they break |
| 20:55.02 | Shirik | has issues with the word "permanently" |
| 20:55.17 | Neffi | AFAIK |
| 20:55.29 | Neffi | it doesnt matter if the secure path overwrites it, the variable should still be tainted |
| 20:55.41 | Neffi | may not be the case though |
| 20:55.42 | End_ | no, that would untaint it |
| 20:55.48 | Neffi | I stand corrected |
| 20:56.04 | Shirik | if it uses the tainted value in its calculation, it will remain tainted |
| 20:56.09 | End_ | yea |
| 20:56.11 | Shirik | but if it just overwrote it with something secure, it would be fine |
| 20:56.14 | VIad | yeah, but it's weird if Semlar's addon when enabled, breaks the watchframe :P |
| 20:56.19 | Neffi | In any case, VIad, a lot of unexpected taint comes from calling FrameXML-defined functions. They set variables, and since the call originated from your code it's insecure, thus taints |
| 20:56.28 | Semlar | who watches the watchframe |
| 20:56.28 | VIad | yeah |
| 20:56.50 | Neffi | who watches the who's that watch the watchframe? |
| 20:56.59 | Neffi | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:57.17 | VIad | Semlar and Neffi: Blizzards code watches them :P |
| 20:57.23 | VIad | and errors by blocking them and blaming addons in their logs |
| 20:57.26 | Shirik | I wonder if there's a way to taint the taint log code |
| 20:57.40 | Semlar | yes |
| 20:57.44 | Shirik | I mean there's certainly a way to taint access to every global |
| 20:57.56 | Neffi | Shirik: _G = _G should taint every global |
| 20:58.04 | Shirik | not really |
| 20:58.04 | End_ | no |
| 20:58.06 | Shirik | that taints _G |
| 20:58.16 | Neffi | it doesn't travel down? somebody said it did |
| 20:58.17 | End_ | if any secure stuff accesses a global via _G |
| 20:58.19 | Shirik | local _G = _G; setfenv(0, setmetatable({}, {__index = _G; })); |
| 20:58.20 | End_ | it'd get tainted |
| 20:58.25 | Shirik | that would taint access to ever global |
| 20:58.43 | Neffi | If we had the debug library, we could really have fun and taint absolutely everything |
| 20:58.44 | End_ | I did that once |
| 20:58.48 | End_ | but that was before taint |
| 20:58.59 | End_ | and it crashed WoW pretty bad when I tried to reload/logout after that |
| 20:59.09 | Shirik | if we had access to the debug library everything would be destroyed |
| 20:59.12 | Neffi | Anyway, I believe taint is done C-side, so it's not prone to being tainted |
| 20:59.13 | Shirik | we're lucky we have access to newproxy |
| 20:59.29 | Neffi | we have access to newproxy? shit |
| 20:59.33 | *** join/#wowuidev Kandoko (~Kandoko@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Developer/Kandoko) |
| 20:59.39 | Neffi | learn something new every day |
| 20:59.52 | Semlar | i forget something new every day |
| 20:59.57 | Shirik | I really hate that we do |
| 20:59.58 | End_ | the restricted environment stuff uses it I think |
| 21:00.51 | Neffi | Seems like you could do everything newproxy does with straight tables |
| 21:01.10 | Shirik | there are a few things you can do with newproxy that you can't otherwise |
| 21:01.19 | Shirik | the most notable one is access to the __gc metamethod |
| 21:01.25 | Shirik | which in my opinion is extremely dangerous |
| 21:01.39 | Neffi | Tables cannot use __gc? you sure? |
| 21:02.06 | Neffi | ah, you're right |
| 21:02.16 | Shirik | lua> setmetatable({}, {__gc = print}); collectgarbage("collect"); |
| 21:02.17 | lua_bot | Shirik: No output |
| 21:02.42 | VIad | can we use our own threads in lua? |
| 21:02.42 | Shirik | --> getmetatable(newproxy(true)).__gc = print; collectgarbage("collect"); |
| 21:02.42 | batbot | Shirik: userdata: 0x125ce38 |
| 21:02.57 | Shirik | you can use coroutines |
| 21:03.01 | Shirik | which Lua calls threads |
| 21:03.13 | VIad | aha, is it any point in doing so? |
| 21:03.22 | Neffi | coroutines? |
| 21:03.25 | Shirik | sure |
| 21:03.28 | Neffi | They can be very neat |
| 21:03.42 | Shirik | Auctioneer does it so that it doesn't lock up your computer while trying to process all the data you just scanned |
| 21:03.45 | Neffi | I mean, OnUpdate allows you to achieve a lot of the same stuff, but you can do it more cleanly with coroutines |
| 21:03.55 | Shirik | yeah I guess you could do it with onupdate |
| 21:04.08 | VIad | if you have a thread that does while 1 do end |
| 21:04.11 | VIad | will it lock your game? |
| 21:04.13 | Neffi | yes |
| 21:04.25 | Neffi | even in a coroutine. it needs to yield manually |
| 21:04.27 | VIad | can you do more than just say "start this thread"? |
| 21:04.35 | Neffi | start, pause, stop |
| 21:04.36 | VIad | like define update intervals, priority, e.g. |
| 21:04.38 | VIad | aha, ok |
| 21:04.41 | Shirik | Lua does not support multitasking |
| 21:04.46 | Shirik | it uses cooperative scheduling |
| 21:04.54 | VIad | so you can, for instance, make a "onupdate" that pauses during certain situations |
| 21:05.00 | Neffi | It'd be nice if we had preemptive multitasking for offloading certain things |
| 21:05.02 | VIad | instead of unregistering and such |
| 21:05.11 | Neffi | yes |
| 21:05.26 | Shirik | Neffi: I've spent enough time in the Lua core to know that the amount of pain that brings to Lua is insane |
| 21:05.43 | Neffi | Yeah, Lua isn't geared towards that |
| 21:06.53 | Neffi | There are libraries that can achieve it by spawning new environments and using message passing |
| 21:07.08 | Neffi | which would be sufficient for offloading computations while the main thread still does UI shit |
| 21:07.38 | Shirik | the problem is that they don't share an environment, which is always painful |
| 21:08.05 | Shirik | batrick and I worked on a library that shared the environment for a while. I kinda fell off that project due to school being kinda important, dunno if he ever finished it. |
| 21:08.15 | Neffi | What was it called? |
| 21:08.33 | Neffi | I remember looking into a few implementations, and one or two shared the environment |
| 21:11.19 | Shirik | it does not appear to have a name on my computer :) |
| 21:11.22 | Shirik | but it might have one |
| 21:11.24 | Shirik | this was a long time ago |
| 21:14.20 | VIad | coroutines seem pointless for most lua code |
| 21:14.38 | Shirik | threads are pointless for most code |
| 21:14.39 | VIad | since we can't really use it to distribute load of any kind anyway |
| 21:16.36 | Shirik | multithreading is overrated imo |
| 21:17.17 | VIad | depends, not if you code the program and all :P |
| 21:17.46 | VIad | if you wish a certain process to only take so much of the total cpu and such, can limit it by limiting thread priority |
| 21:17.58 | *** join/#wowuidev alestane (~alestane@c-174-63-97-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 21:17.58 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v alestane] by ChanServ |
| 21:18.03 | Shirik | strongly disagree with the above statement |
| 21:18.16 | Shirik | priority inversion is a wonderful thing |
| 21:18.25 | Shirik | and by wonderful I mean "it makes your applications explode" |
| 21:18.54 | VIad | you'd probably want the UI of your program and the background worker to not be on the same thread tough, or affect each other :P |
| 21:19.40 | Shirik | you seem to be implying there's a way to keep them completely separate |
| 21:19.44 | Shirik | I do not agree with this assertion |
| 21:20.24 | Shirik | (or rather, if they can be completely separate, they should just be two completely separate processes) |
| 21:22.18 | Shirik | Suffice to say if it's not obvious already, I have very strong opinions on multithreading, not the least of which is that multithreading is generally used where other options are available, and its cost is very rarely worth the additional benefits it provides |
| 21:22.29 | Shirik | cost is generally in terms of quality |
| 21:24.38 | VIad | don't know what you like, but when I coded a huge sorter back my first uni years we made two new threads handle sorting halves and the main thread simply combined what it got in return |
| 21:25.15 | VIad | i.e. the main thread could be the ui receiving the results and displaying them as they are ready from computation, without lagging or locking your application interface until the whole process is done :P |
| 21:25.57 | foxlit | I feel like I'm watching the Unstoppable Force meet the Immovable Object here |
| 21:26.38 | *** join/#wowuidev Ketho (~ngsc@ip565063bd.direct-adsl.nl) |
| 21:27.30 | foxlit | (and the result is... deafening silence!) |
| 21:27.39 | *** join/#wowuidev MidnightAge (~midnight@50-90-9-206.res.bhn.net) |
| 21:27.40 | Shirik | I debated whether or not I wanted to continue the discussion |
| 21:27.58 | Shirik | because I was going to turn that into a "architecture dictated by OS" discussion |
| 21:28.51 | Shirik | or for you Linux folk, "window manager" |
| 21:29.03 | VIad | ^^ |
| 21:29.14 | VIad | I'm just saying, it was a situation where threads were a neat thing to have :P |
| 21:29.29 | Shirik | neat? They are almost always neat to have |
| 21:29.36 | VIad | neat as in helpful |
| 21:29.44 | Shirik | I just think the cost almost always outweighs the benefits |
| 21:29.53 | nevcairiel | pretty much all UI designs seem to somehow rely on some sort of main loop running and blocking it causes your app to stall |
| 21:30.40 | *** join/#wowuidev tem (~tardmrr@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Dongle/Tem) |
| 21:30.40 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v tem] by ChanServ |
| 21:30.55 | VIad | I am curious, Shirik, what other ways can you have a task execute and not affect the UI? |
| 21:31.07 | Shirik | Your first problem is that you are limiting yourself to a UI |
| 21:31.12 | VIad | :P |
| 21:31.13 | Shirik | whose architecture dictates that you shall multithread |
| 21:31.24 | VIad | you can avoid threading |
| 21:31.33 | VIad | but if you push a button that does something it would lock until it was done :P |
| 21:32.05 | Shirik | I think you would still have at least 2 threads |
| 21:32.22 | VIad | jupp |
| 21:32.23 | Shirik | I am not a UI developer, however the architectures I'm familiar with spawn a UI thread when they spin up |
| 21:32.32 | Shirik | you can certainly block the UI thread |
| 21:32.37 | Shirik | but you've still got multiple threads, you're just sucking at it |
| 21:33.26 | Shirik | So I choose to eliminate UI from the topic, because it's not really fair to say something like "x86 sucks" and then say "well how else would you write a Windows application?" |
| 21:33.29 | Shirik | in b4 ARM |
| 21:33.36 | nevcairiel | main reason i use multithreading is to leverage modern CPUs. When i'm processing a big dataset, splitting it and running several chunks at the same time helps a lot |
| 21:33.48 | Shirik | parallel computing I'm OK with |
| 21:33.53 | VIad | glhf with your text based phone, Shirik :P |
| 21:34.03 | Shirik | but I don't think that's the most common use of multithreading today |
| 21:34.04 | VIad | gotta make one of those for the command line fans ^^ |
| 21:34.43 | nevcairiel | any modern OS requires many threads in every application just for normal operation, this is true |
| 21:35.02 | nevcairiel | but i wouldn't call my application multi-threaded just because it has those. :d |
| 21:35.09 | Shirik | agree |
| 21:35.38 | Shirik | though I don't think console hello world spawns more than one thread in win32 |
| 21:35.58 | nevcairiel | i suppose not, but then, its also not all that powerful of an application |
| 21:36.20 | Shirik | totally should make a multithreaded hello world |
| 21:36.34 | Shirik | each thread moves the cursor to a position and writes one letter |
| 21:36.35 | VIad | each thread writes a letter |
| 21:36.38 | VIad | :P |
| 21:36.53 | Shirik | the race condition obviously being the break between moving the cursor and writing a letter |
| 21:37.08 | nevcairiel | obviously no sync between the threads so you get funny letter jumbling |
| 21:37.28 | Shirik | I wonder |
| 21:37.34 | Shirik | I actually have to try this now |
| 21:37.52 | nevcairiel | no idea how thread-safe printing to stdout is |
| 21:37.58 | Shirik | I bet there's a fairly high probability on win32 if I start all threads simultaneously, with no synchronization, it would still come out right |
| 21:38.01 | Shirik | not at all :P |
| 21:38.14 | Shirik | time to test |
| 21:38.25 | VIad | you need to sync them :P |
| 21:38.38 | Shirik | I'm relying on implementation details of the kernel right now, obviously not guaranteed |
| 21:38.41 | Shirik | but think of it this way |
| 21:38.42 | VIad | otherwise it would be a bit random I think |
| 21:38.45 | Shirik | if you have 20 threads |
| 21:38.48 | Shirik | all of them identical |
| 21:38.52 | Shirik | which one do you pick to go next? |
| 21:38.59 | tem | My super minor investigation of my taint problems seems to indicate that I'm breaking the talent/glyph ui by touching StaticPopup stuff |
| 21:39.01 | Shirik | It's not like they put a random number generator in the kernel |
| 21:39.08 | tem | anyone familiar with this problem? |
| 21:39.09 | Shirik | I would bet they just pick the one that was first created |
| 21:39.11 | nevcairiel | it goes from the top of course |
| 21:39.27 | nevcairiel | but then, on any PC purchased in the last 5 years or so, it can run multiple at once |
| 21:39.29 | End_ | tem: durcyn has spent a lot of time working on it, and came to a similar conclusion |
| 21:39.36 | Shirik | ah true |
| 21:39.45 | Shirik | that could throw a wrench in things |
| 21:39.56 | durcyn | tem: creating them, even with preferredIndex > 3 still causes problems |
| 21:40.23 | durcyn | tem: and raw hooks on functions in the functions FrameXML calls in the default StaticPopups breaks shit too, it's tons of fun |
| 21:40.34 | nevcairiel | durcyn: but not unconditionally, there must be more involved, i never had my talents break with a normal addon set |
| 21:40.36 | tem | so is there a decent alternative that gives me basically the same features so that I don't break everything? |
| 21:40.41 | durcyn | s/in the functions // |
| 21:41.25 | End_ | LibDialog I think maybe? |
| 21:41.37 | End_ | I dunno exactly I've never touched it personally |
| 21:41.40 | tem | bleh |
| 21:41.47 | tem | I don't miss dependencies |
| 21:41.56 | durcyn | you can roll your own easily enough, libdialog's useful in that it shifts its' positions around staticpopups |
| 21:42.23 | tem | yeah I'm sure I could roll my own decently easily |
| 21:42.29 | durcyn | nevcairiel: you're right, it's not consistent at all, but it's happened nonzero times |
| 21:42.33 | foxlit | "durcyn: tem: creating them, even with preferredIndex > 3 still causes problems" << preferredIndex was bullshit last I looked at it. |
| 21:43.02 | nevcairiel | wasnt the idea that it has a cache of 4 frames, and when you ask it to give you the third, you dont taint the first two? |
| 21:43.11 | VIad | the prefered index only works if they are already created right? |
| 21:43.13 | tem | I bet StaticPopup even has a template I could inherit from but I bet it also calls some kind of StaticPopup_OnLoad tht breaks everything by being called by "me" |
| 21:43.14 | tem | blarg |
| 21:43.25 | tem | libdialog, I guess |
| 21:43.34 | Neffi | Shirik: I came late to the discussion, but would you recommend any reading material on the subject of threads and what you were just discussing? |
| 21:43.47 | End_ | anyhow |
| 21:43.53 | foxlit | nevcairiel: that's the "reasoning", but it's woefully short of reproducible evidence. |
| 21:44.04 | Shirik | QNX has a wonderful whitepaper on it somewhere I can see if I can find it |
| 21:44.09 | End_ | my latest "taint" issue with talents appears to be the bizarre id bug |
| 21:44.11 | Neffi | I would love if you did |
| 21:44.24 | End_ | the fun part is that RemoveTalent seems to check args, throw an error, and then check taint and throw another error |
| 21:44.37 | Neffi | I eventually want to get into operating systems, and I find architecture and theory of the sort fascinating |
| 21:44.39 | End_ | and apparently?? the error handler is causing the second taint error |
| 21:44.43 | durcyn | End_: hooking chatframe AddMessage seems to be the next ugly one |
| 21:44.56 | kd3 | a good high-level computer architecture book is a godsend |
| 21:44.59 | *** join/#wowuidev zoktar (~zoktar@unaffiliated/zoktar) |
| 21:45.03 | kd3 | don't use the one my comp arch professor used |
| 21:45.32 | Neffi | I'm apt to form opinions on what I read |
| 21:45.55 | Neffi | I've read a few books -- or at least parts -- that came well-regarded by others and I despised them philisophically |
| 21:46.41 | durcyn | Shadowed: nevermind the replaced textures, but here's what happens when you use PetBattleTactician thingy with only one alive pet: http://i.imgur.com/70y4z.jpg |
| 21:46.58 | Shadowed | well |
| 21:47.00 | Shadowed | stop killing your pets |
| 21:47.01 | Shadowed | you god damn monster |
| 21:47.08 | durcyn | they had it coming! |
| 21:47.21 | VIad | :P |
| 21:47.44 | End_ | doesn't durcyn play a warlock? of course he sacrifices his pets |
| 21:47.55 | Neffi | har-dee-har-har |
| 21:48.07 | durcyn | that hurt to read. |
| 21:49.08 | VIad | isn't the concept of death kind of wasted when it's a game where you can just bring stuff back from the dead? |
| 21:49.18 | Fisker | hey kd3 |
| 21:49.36 | kd3 | 'lo |
| 21:49.41 | VIad | it's a permanent state, so dying isn't sad at all, just an inconvenience |
| 21:49.47 | Neffi | Might want to denote that as explicitly rhetorical before we launch into philosophical debates about life |
| 21:50.09 | VIad | on the subject of death in the game that is :P |
| 21:50.34 | Neffi | We are all made of pixels on the quantum scale |
| 21:50.40 | Neffi | god is just playing a game with you |
| 21:51.13 | VIad | if your pet in wow dies you can just revive it on command |
| 21:51.14 | VIad | :P |
| 21:51.36 | Neffi | If my pet dies in real life, nothing says I can't at least try to do the same |
| 21:51.51 | VIad | calling durcyn a monster for sacrificing his minions isn't really that bad, he can just spawn them again :P |
| 21:52.03 | durcyn | leave me out of whatever rambling mess this conversation just turned into |
| 21:52.07 | Neffi | goes on an expedition into vodoo-ritualistic cultures. |
| 21:52.11 | VIad | lol |
| 21:52.44 | VIad | I was merely questioning if the act of killing your pet in wow, was so bad, considering they can be revived so fast and with no side effects :P |
| 21:56.45 | Mr_Rabies | warlocks don't really have pets, they have demons they control |
| 21:57.08 | kd3 | "control" |
| 21:57.08 | Mr_Rabies | it's not a symbiotic relationship at all :p |
| 21:57.22 | VIad | no relationship in wow is symbiotic |
| 21:57.43 | Mr_Rabies | hunter pets are, even if not really distinctly in gameplay |
| 21:58.15 | Mr_Rabies | plus, except for plot death, death isn't true death, it's just grevious injuries that would lead to death if not treated immediately without some magic intervention |
| 21:58.53 | Mr_Rabies | demons just go back to the twisting nether until they're ripped back out |
| 21:59.01 | VIad | I guess the closest you got was when you fed them and made them happy |
| 21:59.04 | VIad | now it's gone so :P |
| 21:59.23 | Neffi | i wonder why they took that out |
| 21:59.29 | Neffi | it made the class feel more personal |
| 21:59.32 | Mr_Rabies | it was really annoying |
| 21:59.46 | Mr_Rabies | it didn't really add any interesting gameplay, just frustration |
| 21:59.55 | Mr_Rabies | and wasted bag space |
| 22:00.22 | End_ | and then they added the stuff so your pet would gain happiness everytime he attacked or whatever |
| 22:00.23 | Fisker | yay |
| 22:00.30 | Fisker | looks like i finally fixed that fucking audio stutter |
| 22:00.43 | Neffi | what did it turn out to be? |
| 22:01.05 | VIad | as I was saying |
| 22:01.19 | VIad | the relationship between hunter and pet is more gone now than ever |
| 22:01.25 | VIad | so even if your pet dies it's no biggie |
| 22:01.27 | Fisker | to change power settings to high performance instead of balanced :P |
| 22:01.29 | VIad | can revive it anyway, doesn't even get mad :P |
| 22:01.52 | Fisker | i thought i had set that already though |
| 22:01.56 | Fisker | but it turns out i hadn't |
| 22:02.15 | Mr_Rabies | happiness was really just an annoyance beyond anything else |
| 22:02.36 | Mr_Rabies | most hunters i knew didn't even bother summoning pets in raids |
| 22:02.41 | VIad | you said hunters had a symbiotic relationship with their pets |
| 22:02.44 | Mr_Rabies | because that meant bringing stacks and stacks of meat |
| 22:02.45 | VIad | but you say feeding it is annoying |
| 22:02.49 | VIad | I don't know what you want lol |
| 22:02.55 | Mr_Rabies | i said "but not in gameplay" |
| 22:03.04 | VIad | I'm only talking about in the game :P |
| 22:03.07 | Mr_Rabies | gameplay doesn't necessarily have to reflect storyline |
| 22:04.05 | Mr_Rabies | i don't think it's necessary to perform every role of a person in a roleplaying game |
| 22:04.13 | VIad | no character has a storyline |
| 22:04.18 | VIad | no palyer character |
| 22:04.20 | VIad | player* |
| 22:04.26 | VIad | so its all gameplay |
| 22:04.28 | Mr_Rabies | hunters and their pets have a normal person/pet relationship |
| 22:04.45 | Mr_Rabies | warlocks don't care for their demons and they don't care for the warlock in the least |
| 22:04.55 | nevcairiel | the demons even complain :p |
| 22:04.58 | Mr_Rabies | they rip them out of the nether and enslave them for their own purposes |
| 22:05.10 | VIad | they removed hunters and pet relationship when they removed all feeding and happiness |
| 22:05.14 | Mr_Rabies | and sure, the player character has a ton of storyline |
| 22:05.16 | Mr_Rabies | not at all |
| 22:05.19 | Mr_Rabies | they just removed it in gameplay |
| 22:05.26 | VIad | sigh |
| 22:05.29 | VIad | that's the same as removing it |
| 22:05.33 | Mr_Rabies | not at all! |
| 22:05.45 | VIad | you can't say I have a relationship with a random bear just because it's alive and exists |
| 22:05.46 | VIad | :P |
| 22:05.47 | Neffi | What I find amazing is that after 7 years, my character has never had to purge waste. Equally strange is his ability to go months without eating. |
| 22:05.57 | VIad | in real life |
| 22:06.06 | nevcairiel | Neffi: what do you think your character does when you log out? |
| 22:06.11 | Shirik | hm |
| 22:06.14 | Mr_Rabies | you domesticated that bear with your knowledge of nature, you fed it and raised it and healed its injuries |
| 22:06.17 | Shirik | Windows is a little more random than I give it credit for |
| 22:06.19 | VIad | nevcairiel: it disappears from the server as a loaded entitiy |
| 22:06.25 | Neffi | goes into a coma? |
| 22:06.27 | Mr_Rabies | now you and the bear have an unbreakable bond |
| 22:06.33 | Shirik | It very consistently outputs "HrlldoW ole" |
| 22:06.36 | Shirik | not every time, but often |
| 22:06.38 | VIad | and how do you suggest I can do the same in game with my hunter? |
| 22:06.41 | Shirik | but where that comes from, I have no idea |
| 22:06.45 | VIad | cast "Tame" and "tada" :P |
| 22:06.59 | VIad | you now have tons of friendships, because the spell tooltip says so |
| 22:07.08 | VIad | nah, you need more substance, like mending pet, feeding it with food, e.g. |
| 22:07.14 | Mr_Rabies | like i said, gameplay needn't reflect everything you do with your character |
| 22:07.15 | VIad | only thing left is mend pet and by now it's just a heal spell tbh |
| 22:08.06 | *** join/#wowuidev Seerah (~RyanNL@adsl-74-226-98-201.mem.bellsouth.net) |
| 22:08.07 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ |
| 22:08.07 | VIad | you are just talking about playing predent in a virtual world |
| 22:08.07 | Mr_Rabies | basically you get the highlights with gameplay |
| 22:08.31 | Mr_Rabies | the minor stuff is all done when you're not playing |
| 22:08.42 | VIad | lol |
| 22:08.47 | Mr_Rabies | there's no way you could travel across all of azeroth in a few hours |
| 22:08.54 | Mr_Rabies | you get the abridged version of your character |
| 22:09.07 | Mr_Rabies | in reality he spent weeks traveling |
| 22:09.27 | nevcairiel | yeah the world is really tiny if you take just the travel time |
| 22:09.32 | Arrowmaster | you get the abridged version of azeroth too |
| 22:09.55 | VIad | you don't tell a good story by saying on the loading screen "you tame a bear and form a strong bond" and expect the player to also feel the same way mate :P |
| 22:10.04 | Mr_Rabies | imagine if the barrens was 1:1 scale of what it is in the story |
| 22:10.20 | VIad | for me removing the friendship and feeding from the game just made hunters more like warlocks, pets are just minion basically |
| 22:10.49 | Arrowmaster | no hunter pets dont talk back to you |
| 22:10.50 | nevcairiel | if you want to role-play with your pet, you dont need some mechanic to help you |
| 22:10.56 | Mr_Rabies | maybe to you |
| 22:11.04 | Mr_Rabies | maybe you're just a jerk to your pets :p |
| 22:11.31 | VIad | how are you a jerk in-game? :P |
| 22:11.34 | VIad | to your pets that is |
| 22:11.43 | Mr_Rabies | because you treat your pets like minions! |
| 22:11.52 | VIad | there is no difference |
| 22:11.56 | VIad | both have actionbars |
| 22:11.58 | Mr_Rabies | not in gameplay |
| 22:11.59 | nevcairiel | to the pet there is! |
| 22:12.04 | Mr_Rabies | gameplay isn't story! |
| 22:12.06 | VIad | and do basically the same :P |
| 22:12.18 | VIad | so pushing attack on your imp, versus on your hunter pet |
| 22:12.21 | VIad | what is the difference? |
| 22:12.25 | VIad | story wise |
| 22:12.30 | nevcairiel | the imp curses at you |
| 22:12.30 | Arrowmaster | Cairenn|afk: http://i.imgur.com/jWv9N.gif |
| 22:12.37 | Mr_Rabies | storywise, you're forcing the imp to fight against its will |
| 22:12.38 | Shirik | huh. Visual Studio gracefully handles having a thousand threads http://gyazo.com/823a5f723270e67ea61a5ecdf948832b |
| 22:12.46 | Arrowmaster | the imp is a wiseass little fucker |
| 22:13.04 | Mr_Rabies | as a hunter, you direct your pet you've spent weeks training to do something you've taught him |
| 22:13.07 | Shirik | Arrowmaster: Were those stairs? |
| 22:13.19 | Arrowmaster | Shirik: its a door |
| 22:13.24 | nevcairiel | Shirik: isnt hello world a tad bit short for 1000 threads to print it? =P |
| 22:13.26 | Shirik | yes but like through the door |
| 22:13.33 | Shirik | nevcairiel: I tried a little experiment |
| 22:13.34 | Arrowmaster | how would i know |
| 22:13.45 | Shirik | I tried to beat kernel memory fragmentation by spawning an additional 1000 threads first |
| 22:13.52 | VIad | I just don't feel like that, I guess I would if there was more character development, if the game tries to teach you how important your pet is and such, like it was before, getting your pet as hunter was an event before |
| 22:13.52 | Shirik | it didn't produce any change in the result |
| 22:13.59 | Mr_Rabies | gameplay should almost never suffer to reinforce storyline |
| 22:14.02 | VIad | now everyone got one, and it doesn't help the predenting either :P |
| 22:14.31 | Shirik | I now have no good explanation for why Windows prints out the letters in the order it does, but does it the same way every time |
| 22:14.31 | VIad | you got your pet at 10 and it had some quests to introduce it to you, and slowly teach you feeding and healing it |
| 22:14.49 | Mr_Rabies | and that's what stuff like buying ammo and keeping pets healthy/friendship levels was like |
| 22:15.00 | Mr_Rabies | it was hurting gameplay just to reinforce some storyline stuff |
| 22:15.17 | Mr_Rabies | that's because level 10 is no longer something you're at for hours |
| 22:15.32 | Mr_Rabies | level 10 is a speck of the total experience gain |
| 22:15.51 | VIad | I found it to be character building |
| 22:16.02 | VIad | personally never hurt my gameplay |
| 22:16.21 | Mr_Rabies | forcing someone to stop and do a tedious quest when they're trying to get caught up is a good way to lose a lot of new subscribers |
| 22:16.30 | VIad | it just made me feel different from other classes, it's nice |
| 22:16.37 | VIad | lol |
| 22:16.51 | VIad | tedious quests? |
| 22:16.59 | VIad | we aren't talking about dailies, just quests 10-14 |
| 22:17.07 | nevcairiel | this is why so many druids skipped the aquatic form back in the day |
| 22:17.09 | Mr_Rabies | anything that takes more than a few minutes to do at level 10 is tedious |
| 22:17.10 | nevcairiel | the quest was annoying |
| 22:17.18 | VIad | but the aquatic form one was retarded |
| 22:17.20 | Mr_Rabies | yeah, i was one of like, 5 druids i knew that did that quest |
| 22:17.23 | VIad | it required you to go faaaar away |
| 22:17.23 | Mr_Rabies | no, that quest owned |
| 22:17.33 | Mr_Rabies | but...it has no purpose anymore |
| 22:17.34 | VIad | the hunter pet once were in the zone, localized for each quest hub |
| 22:17.38 | nevcairiel | i of course finished the quest |
| 22:17.48 | Mr_Rabies | that was the point though |
| 22:17.50 | nevcairiel | because it was great to be send across the world |
| 22:18.04 | nevcairiel | at least i thought so =P |
| 22:18.11 | Mr_Rabies | the druid had to go on a long quest to learn how to shapeshift into an entirely different form |
| 22:18.13 | Mr_Rabies | it was awesome |
| 22:18.14 | Mr_Rabies | however |
| 22:18.21 | Mr_Rabies | it has no place anymore |
| 22:18.35 | Mr_Rabies | level 10 is something you spend maybe 15 minutes at without heirlooms |
| 22:18.36 | nevcairiel | they even removed the quest for the bear form i guess? |
| 22:18.40 | Mr_Rabies | yeah |
| 22:19.14 | VIad | warriors have no event to learn berserker stance either |
| 22:19.33 | nevcairiel | but they used to |
| 22:19.46 | nevcairiel | unless i remember wrong |
| 22:19.57 | nevcairiel | same as locks, had some quests to obtain their demons |
| 22:20.14 | Seerah | nevcairiel: yeah, iirc. had to go up to wpl |
| 22:20.21 | Seerah | (or near at least) |
| 22:20.31 | Mr_Rabies | if you have to do the whole story grind to get caught up, that's a recipe to kill the game |
| 22:20.46 | Mr_Rabies | if someone really wants to learn how druids learn new forms, they can always look into it |
| 22:20.46 | nevcairiel | thats about all classes i played in classic and BC, a druid, lock and warrior =p |
| 22:21.07 | VIad | these quests were okay imo, I mean you are leveling to 60, how much harm can these quests do? they help develop your class and even teaches you how to play :P |
| 22:21.17 | Mr_Rabies | each class still has a few unique quests starting out |
| 22:21.21 | Mr_Rabies | you're not leveling to 60 |
| 22:21.22 | VIad | better than the spellbooks saying "use these 6 spells in this order" |
| 22:21.27 | Mr_Rabies | you're leveling to 90 |
| 22:21.33 | VIad | 60 is there along the way |
| 22:21.54 | Mr_Rabies | 1-60 is still a really small part of total exp needed |
| 22:22.07 | Mr_Rabies | all you'll see is people skipping the quest and not having shit at max level |
| 22:22.10 | nevcairiel | yeah going to 60 is finished pretty quickly |
| 22:22.21 | Mr_Rabies | i knew several paladins that never learned how to res, even in vanilla |
| 22:22.56 | VIad | I don't see how it is a reason to remove all class related quests |
| 22:22.58 | Mr_Rabies | we made them go back to goldshire and do that questline |
| 22:23.18 | Mr_Rabies | you don't need to remove them, but there wasn't much of a reason to recreate them for cataclysm |
| 22:23.22 | VIad | especially when talking about storyline and predenting to be friend with your pet as a hunter and such, this only helps make this even better experience :P |
| 22:23.25 | Mr_Rabies | it was a waste of resources |
| 22:23.40 | VIad | I always say, better to have the option and not force people, than not have the option |
| 22:23.58 | Mr_Rabies | move forward and have higher level class quests instead |
| 22:24.40 | nevcairiel | doing class quests for like 11 classes is quite resource intensive, they commented on that, one quest line for every class in MoP would've meant one less zone |
| 22:24.55 | Mr_Rabies | yeah |
| 22:25.01 | Mr_Rabies | they'll eventually have cool class stuff |
| 22:25.14 | Mr_Rabies | but don't expect it to be balanced between each class |
| 22:25.30 | Mr_Rabies | for example, locks are getting a cool quest to earn felfire spells in 5.2 |
| 22:25.33 | VIad | I found the hunter quest for the bow to be nice way to teach kiting and LOS and such |
| 22:25.46 | VIad | every class should have such quest tbh |
| 22:26.02 | Mr_Rabies | i knew like, one hunter that could kite properly |
| 22:26.10 | Mr_Rabies | every time we ran ubrs our hunter would die in drakkisath |
| 22:26.18 | Mr_Rabies | unless we had the one that learned how to kite |
| 22:26.23 | nevcairiel | oh yeah the kite fight |
| 22:26.32 | VIad | :P |
| 22:26.33 | Mr_Rabies | and it wasn't that quest, it was taking time to learn the gameplay |
| 22:26.55 | nevcairiel | the quest just forced their hand if they wanted the bow |
| 22:27.12 | VIad | even if I give you a math book Mr_Rabies, it's not always enough for you to learn math :P |
| 22:27.14 | nevcairiel | they didnt learn doing the quest, they learned to do the quest |
| 22:27.20 | VIad | some introduction tutoring is nice |
| 22:27.33 | Mr_Rabies | that's what the proving grounds are for, in theory |
| 22:27.38 | VIad | yeah, as nevcairiel said |
| 22:27.50 | nevcairiel | the quest didnt teach them, it just forced them to learn |
| 22:27.57 | Arrowmaster | i knew a warlock that did the kiting in ubrs |
| 22:28.11 | Mr_Rabies | hell, i did the kiting as a feral druid a few times |
| 22:28.19 | Mr_Rabies | i didn't have any damned quest |
| 22:28.24 | nevcairiel | we had plenty odd choices for kiting in some situations |
| 22:28.30 | Arrowmaster | he did the kiting in a 3man ubrs |
| 22:28.49 | Mr_Rabies | usually i offtanked drakk with a healer with me as the group killed the adds |
| 22:28.53 | nevcairiel | i bet we had a warlock kite before as well |
| 22:29.05 | Mr_Rabies | but if we didn't have a good extra healer i'd just kite |
| 22:29.17 | VIad | forcing to learn, still a way to teach :P |
| 22:29.17 | VIad | lol |
| 22:29.32 | Mr_Rabies | it works sometimes |
| 22:29.44 | VIad | that's how I felt it was when I was in uni :P |
| 22:29.57 | VIad | teach you some of the stuff, rest you teach yourself, forcefully to meet deadlines ^^ |
| 22:30.04 | Mr_Rabies | but forcing someone to spend hours working on a quest when they're starting a new character to 'learn' something most likely will just make them quit playing, or ignore the quest |
| 22:30.24 | nevcairiel | thats how university is supposed to work, it teaches you how to teach yourself |
| 22:30.31 | Mr_Rabies | there's no reason to remake a bunch of old questlines for cataclysm that people either will only do because they have to, or won't do |
| 22:30.33 | VIad | Mr_Rabies: wasn't hours to get your first pet |
| 22:30.33 | nevcairiel | because it can't possibly teach you *everything* |
| 22:30.48 | VIad | I think the same applies to this game ;) |
| 22:31.00 | VIad | should at least show you how some mechanics work and let you figure out the rest |
| 22:31.24 | Mr_Rabies | that's what quests do |
| 22:31.25 | VIad | obviously stuff like line of sight don't need directly teaching tough |
| 22:31.28 | Mr_Rabies | just not class quests |
| 22:31.37 | nevcairiel | thats how it works, if you quest through pandaria, a lot of the quest mechanics re-appear in the dungeons |
| 22:31.51 | nevcairiel | its much stronger in pandaria then previous content |
| 22:31.55 | nevcairiel | but its no new concept |
| 22:31.59 | Mr_Rabies | well most of the reason it is |
| 22:32.03 | VIad | I'm talking about the low levels |
| 22:32.07 | Mr_Rabies | is because you have to spend more time on the pandaria content |
| 22:32.19 | Mr_Rabies | so you get a much broader experience |
| 22:32.20 | VIad | finding it most important early on than late |
| 22:32.30 | nevcairiel | eh, classic didnt have all that much mechanics =P |
| 22:33.00 | Mr_Rabies | you learned most mechanics while leveling, class quests or not |
| 22:33.04 | nevcairiel | and honestly, rather focus on grasping the basics first, and learn mechanics later |
| 22:33.21 | Mr_Rabies | tldr: |
| 22:33.28 | Mr_Rabies | watch the megaman sequelitis |
| 22:33.38 | VIad | I'd say learning to kite as a hunter should be a low level thing, like 20-60 :P |
| 22:33.49 | Mr_Rabies | why? |
| 22:33.50 | VIad | and your pet stuff |
| 22:34.02 | Mr_Rabies | i don't know a single fight that requires the hunter to kite above any other class anymore |
| 22:34.12 | nevcairiel | once you get a mildly challenging enemy, or a group of some, you'll learn to kite =p |
| 22:34.20 | nevcairiel | but yeah, hunters are no special snowflakes anymore |
| 22:34.24 | Mr_Rabies | why is that some kind of core gameplay thing that should be taught as early as possible? |
| 22:34.36 | VIad | it's not anymore, sadly |
| 22:34.38 | Arrowmaster | i used the alliance outriders in the barrens to learn to kite |
| 22:34.39 | VIad | I just think it added flavor |
| 22:34.46 | Mr_Rabies | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUKe01RSxXs for the megaman sequelitis, nsfw because of language |
| 22:34.46 | Arrowmaster | when they were about 8 levels higher than me |
| 22:35.09 | Mr_Rabies | oops |
| 22:35.12 | Mr_Rabies | that's not the right video |
| 22:35.13 | Mr_Rabies | :| |
| 22:35.22 | Mr_Rabies | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM |
| 22:35.23 | Mr_Rabies | ^ |
| 22:36.01 | VIad | btw you are all bad people in the game |
| 22:36.09 | VIad | killing animals because others tell you to |
| 22:36.20 | VIad | but feeling sorry because your companion pet died :P |
| 22:36.23 | VIad | a bit silly |
| 22:36.59 | nevcairiel | i dont feel sorry about my dead pet |
| 22:37.03 | Mr_Rabies | the only time i really felt that way was for the purging of dalaran quest |
| 22:37.04 | nevcairiel | i'm like "rather him than me" |
| 22:37.10 | VIad | :D |
| 22:37.20 | Arrowmaster | you can rebuild him |
| 22:38.10 | Mr_Rabies | watch this video, for real, it's relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM |
| 22:38.23 | nevcairiel | Mr_Rabies: that guy in the mega man video is a crazy fucker |
| 22:38.23 | VIad | I haven't played any megaman |
| 22:38.40 | Mr_Rabies | doesn't matter, the video's designed for people not familiar with the franchise |
| 22:38.46 | VIad | aha, ok |
| 22:38.58 | Mr_Rabies | egoraptor is awesome, nevcairiel |
| 22:39.03 | Mr_Rabies | and yes, a little nuts |
| 22:39.17 | VIad | ah I like egoraptor |
| 22:41.43 | Mr_Rabies | there's actually a ton of this design in the cata and MoP quests |
| 22:41.44 | VIad | but Mr_Rabies |
| 22:42.00 | Mr_Rabies | all previous expansions had a little, but it's way more pronounced now |
| 22:42.09 | VIad | most I meet in dungeons are retards that can't kite even if you force them to, because they never cared to learn, and I get to suffer for their stupidity :P |
| 22:42.25 | nevcairiel | dungeons need kiting? |
| 22:42.29 | Mr_Rabies | you can't force people to learn, unfortunately |
| 22:42.36 | kd3 | ah, kiting drak to the arena as a mage was fun |
| 22:42.41 | VIad | (1) you can remove kiting from any encounter to fix this or (2) try to figure a way to teach them or make it a incentive for them to wanna learn |
| 22:42.41 | Mr_Rabies | even having quests won't work as long as you can ignore quests |
| 22:42.52 | VIad | just saying :p |
| 22:43.10 | Mr_Rabies | if someone's so dumb they can actually kill a group in a dungeon they're not gonna do a quest that requires them to know how to kite to complete it |
| 22:43.13 | kd3 | or kiting the broodlord to vael's room >.> |
| 22:43.14 | Mr_Rabies | they're just gonna ignore it and move on |
| 22:43.14 | VIad | stuff just get dumbed down more and the flavor and uniqueness is more shallow between classes |
| 22:43.30 | Mr_Rabies | the old method of flavor and uniqueness maybe |
| 22:43.42 | Mr_Rabies | there's more difference between the specs of each class than there ever have been, though |
| 22:43.43 | VIad | what is the new method of flavor and uniqueness? :D |
| 22:43.56 | Mr_Rabies | fire, arcane, and frost mages play drastically differently |
| 22:44.10 | VIad | for me as a raid leader I'd put them in the "ranged caster" category |
| 22:44.22 | Mr_Rabies | each hunter spec plays fairly differently (though marks and survival are still fairly close) |
| 22:44.23 | VIad | maybe frost mages into the "can freeze stuff" one for cc |
| 22:44.54 | Mr_Rabies | each rogue spec plays pretty differently |
| 22:45.00 | VIad | your gameplay and what I need to do a raid dungeon would be different things, I agree, but if you look at guild management usually it's ranged, melee and CC and other cooldowns |
| 22:45.08 | Mr_Rabies | each lock spec plays drastically differently |
| 22:45.27 | Mr_Rabies | well yeah, but what do you do if you have one spec that can res in combat and none of that class? |
| 22:45.34 | Mr_Rabies | boot a friend because you need x to clear a fight |
| 22:45.37 | Mr_Rabies | this should never happen |
| 22:45.38 | Mr_Rabies | ever |
| 22:45.40 | Mr_Rabies | that's bad design |
| 22:45.50 | VIad | they fixed it by capping amount of CR in combat |
| 22:46.10 | Mr_Rabies | and also by giving more than one class a battle res |
| 22:46.46 | VIad | at least hunters still got pet tanking tough |
| 22:46.47 | VIad | :D |
| 22:46.49 | VIad | uniqueness |
| 22:47.00 | VIad | FD, boss goes to pet, misdirect, boss comes to you, ... repeat |
| 22:47.04 | Mr_Rabies | each class has a lot of uniqueness, it's just different than it used to be |
| 22:47.18 | Mr_Rabies | even though DK's, locks, and druids can all brez |
| 22:47.25 | Mr_Rabies | each one has a very different style |
| 22:47.43 | Mr_Rabies | DKs need a certain amount of RP, but they can cast it immediately as soon as they have that |
| 22:48.08 | Mr_Rabies | druids have a cast time in most cases on their brez, but they will almost always have mana to start casting it immediately |
| 22:48.36 | Mr_Rabies | locks can choose to pre-empt a battleres and place it on a character before combat begins, or do it in combat with a cast time |
| 22:49.09 | Mr_Rabies | almost every spell in the game is unique in some form or fashion |
| 22:49.20 | Mr_Rabies | player spell, at least |
| 22:49.30 | VIad | personally by uniqueness I mean what they can do in combat to CC or escape CC, like, everyone got CC and can escape CC by now ^^ |
| 22:49.53 | Mr_Rabies | what happens when you have a cc-heavy fight and a bunch of classes that can't escape cc? |
| 22:49.58 | Mr_Rabies | you boot them and replace them with classes that can |
| 22:50.01 | Mr_Rabies | that's bad design |
| 22:50.08 | VIad | nah |
| 22:50.19 | VIad | those would then in return have other stuff to make them attractive |
| 22:50.22 | Mr_Rabies | that's exactly what happened, and exactly what still happens when design falls flat |
| 22:50.31 | VIad | in my guilds I never did that |
| 22:50.37 | VIad | :P |
| 22:50.49 | Mr_Rabies | we would boot all our mages for garr |
| 22:50.56 | Mr_Rabies | and get in like 8-10 warlocks |
| 22:50.57 | VIad | and it's blizzards job to design it so you don't need 25 CCers to make it ;D |
| 22:51.08 | VIad | at raid start |
| 22:51.17 | nevcairiel | "to make it" is one thing |
| 22:51.18 | VIad | I build it with this in mind so I had 8 warlocks at start |
| 22:51.22 | VIad | instead of kicking AT gar :P |
| 22:51.27 | nevcairiel | having 25 CCers making it much easier is another thing |
| 22:51.49 | nevcairiel | and this is what happened. you could fight all bosses with any balanced setup |
| 22:52.00 | VIad | being a part of a guild is also sticking trough the hard times, sure replacements are sometimes made but it wasn't a deal breaker |
| 22:52.01 | nevcairiel | but specialize your setup, and it gets much easier |
| 22:52.02 | Mr_Rabies | yeah, that's exactly what they did |
| 22:52.03 | nevcairiel | and this is bad |
| 22:52.25 | Mr_Rabies | so what if the next fight didn't need warlocks at all vlad? |
| 22:52.33 | Mr_Rabies | and you needed mages to cure curses? |
| 22:52.43 | VIad | it's blizzards job to design it so you can run it with those 8 warlocks :P |
| 22:52.47 | VIad | and that they aren't useless |
| 22:52.49 | Mr_Rabies | but they have! |
| 22:52.54 | Mr_Rabies | and now you're complaining about it! |
| 22:53.00 | VIad | nop |
| 22:53.15 | Mr_Rabies | that's exactly what they did by giving more classes more options |
| 22:53.32 | VIad | I said nop to me complaining about it ;D |
| 22:53.41 | Mr_Rabies | you no longer have to class stack (unless maybe you're going for world first) |
| 22:53.46 | *** join/#wowuidev MentalPower (~textual@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Administrator/MentalPower) |
| 22:53.46 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v MentalPower] by ChanServ |
| 22:53.55 | VIad | it's blizzards job tough to design the encounters in the whole dungeon so that the same people that enter can do the last boss too |
| 22:54.04 | Mr_Rabies | yeah, and they have |
| 22:54.10 | Mr_Rabies | for the most part |
| 22:54.19 | Mr_Rabies | but you're complaining that it has removed uniqueness |
| 22:54.29 | VIad | the uniqueness is reduced greatly :P |
| 22:54.31 | VIad | not removed |
| 22:54.36 | Mr_Rabies | it's necessary |
| 22:54.37 | batrick | Arrowmaster: lua_bot is not my bot |
| 22:54.48 | Mr_Rabies | batbot is your bot isn't it |
| 22:54.53 | batrick | yes |
| 22:55.02 | VIad | lua> print("") |
| 22:55.04 | lua_bot | VIad: No output |
| 22:55.17 | Mr_Rabies | you see what i'm saying though vlad |
| 22:55.35 | Mr_Rabies | either they make the fights have no mechanics, or give each class more options with less specialization |
| 22:55.48 | Mr_Rabies | i'm glad they chose what they did |
| 22:55.53 | VIad | you can have mechanics, like require people to go places or click stuff and such, any class can do that |
| 22:56.05 | VIad | blizzard just chose this way of doing things :P |
| 22:56.19 | nevcairiel | yeah stuff like requiring a hunter for kiting worked in 40 man raids, but in 10 mans, you cant assume there is a hunter present, so more then one class needs to be able =p |
| 22:56.48 | Mr_Rabies | 33 specs, and each one plays at the very least fairly differently from all the others |
| 22:57.16 | nevcairiel | 34 specs |
| 22:57.19 | nevcairiel | druids have 4! |
| 22:57.21 | Mr_Rabies | oh yeah |
| 22:57.23 | Mr_Rabies | i play a druid |
| 22:57.25 | Mr_Rabies | i should know that |
| 22:57.25 | Mr_Rabies | :p |
| 22:57.29 | Arrowmaster | batrick: i know that |
| 22:57.45 | batrick | then why did you ping me |
| 22:57.59 | Arrowmaster | batrick: because you know about lua internals better than i do |
| 22:58.53 | batrick | whitespace has 0 significance in lua except to delineate keywords/identifiers |
| 22:59.29 | VIad | *afk* friend came ;) |
| 23:00.55 | Mr_Rabies | tell him the internet hates him for breaking up an argument |
| 23:01.02 | Mr_Rabies | or her |
| 23:01.19 | Mr_Rabies | or multiple choice |
| 23:01.29 | Mr_Rabies | i ani't judgin' |
| 23:29.46 | *** join/#wowuidev Semlar|Mobile (~chatzilla@72.188.127.100) |
| 23:34.51 | *** join/#wowuidev Dotted^ (~Dotted@2.105.53.98) |
| 23:38.33 | *** join/#wowuidev VIad (~Vlad@128.121.45.31.customer.cdi.no) |
| 23:38.57 | Semlar|Mobile | vlad why is there so much math |
| 23:42.12 | zenzelezz | one does not simply math into Mordor |
| 23:42.26 | Semlar|Mobile | i'm the only one who simply maths into mordor |
| 23:49.07 | *** join/#wowuidev Archarodim (HydraIRC@78.203.114.95) |
| 23:53.08 | zenzelezz | I tried to math into Mordor, but I accidentally square rooted myself at Ungol Pass |
