| 00:04.51 | foxlit | recaptcha has gotten pretty evil. |
| 00:05.40 | *** join/#wowuidev _Caleb| (~caleb@540088ED.dsl.pool.telekom.hu) |
| 00:33.01 | *** join/#wowuidev quse (~quse@c-69-242-129-11.hsd1.mo.comcast.net) |
| 00:34.58 | Adys | Things I hate: |
| 00:35.02 | Adys | - CDs |
| 00:35.11 | Adys | .. and that's already way too fucking much |
| 00:37.22 | *** join/#wowuidev User632 (~U632@pool-173-51-205-208.lsanca.fios.verizon.net) |
| 00:37.25 | TC-Work | if you hated nothing house would be on you like a ton of bricks |
| 00:46.57 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaylin (~Kaylin@c-98-203-233-187.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 00:48.04 | *** join/#wowuidev arton_ (~arton@95.211.188.53) |
| 00:52.11 | Shadowed | Torhal ping |
| 00:56.07 | Torhal | Shadowed: pong |
| 00:59.31 | *** join/#wowuidev mckenziemc (~Mark@69.224.70.199) |
| 01:24.30 | Arrowmaster | "Autistic artist Stephen Wiltshire draws spellbinding 18ft picture of New York from memory… after a 20-minute helicopter ride over city." |
| 01:24.31 | Arrowmaster | http://i.imgur.com/CxKM0.jpg |
| 01:38.00 | Stanzilla | p3lim: is talentless not on curse? |
| 01:44.45 | p3lim | Stanzilla: Nope |
| 01:45.11 | Stanzilla | whyy |
| 01:46.02 | p3lim | Just haven't bothered, I prefer wowi over it |
| 01:50.18 | Ackis | anyone here an expert with world of logs? |
| 01:51.49 | Ackis | I'm trying to do a log query where I look to see if anyone uses an agro dump (e.g. fade, ice block) or movement spell (sprint, teleport, demonic portal) right before people died to something |
| 01:52.31 | TC-Work | Ackis: why bother? just tell people thy dont know how to play and go do something fun |
| 01:52.59 | Ackis | TC-Work: trying to figure out who to replace, I'm trying for the ICHY achievement |
| 01:54.01 | mckenziemc | l2p Ackis |
| 02:03.49 | kd3 | ah, it's good to be home |
| 02:04.15 | kd3 | alas I have to immediately crash and wake up at oh-dark-hundred tomorrow for a long day at work, sigh |
| 02:05.41 | TC-Work | kd3: you should always have a 1 buffer day between coming home and going back to work |
| 02:08.11 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (~Kaydeethr@user-1121jg6.dsl.mindspring.com) |
| 02:08.11 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (~Kaydeethr@wowwiki/Kaydeethree) |
| 02:13.31 | *** join/#wowuidev Computerpunk (~Computerp@79.115.140.141) |
| 02:15.42 | *** join/#wowuidev pnorman (pnorman@d154-20-166-103.bchsia.telus.net) |
| 02:42.31 | F16Gaming | http://imgur.com/jbniq the stupidity in this ad is amazing |
| 02:43.42 | TC-Work | yea, the maths are all fubared |
| 02:44.11 | *** part/#wowuidev Bleckpan (~unclecycl@host-69-145-24-173.gdj-co.client.bresnan.net) |
| 02:47.08 | *** join/#wowuidev Amarande (amarande@24-151-15-23.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com) |
| 02:47.15 | Amarande | Hrm. Beta folks. |
| 02:47.17 | *** join/#wowuidev Arrowmaster` (~arrow@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/ResponsibleForEverythingAndNothing/Arrowmaster) |
| 02:47.40 | Amarande | Is the transition from Cata into Pandaria going to be as jarringly violent as the transition from Northrend into Cata? |
| 02:48.02 | Amarande | Like ... when you first arrive in Vashj'ir or Hyjal, if you didn't do lots of instances or raid in LK on that character, you find yourself feeling HORRIBLY SQUISHY. |
| 02:48.14 | Amarande | Like every monster is an elite or nearly so until you get your first set of quest upgrades. |
| 02:48.24 | Amarande | Are starter mobs in Pandaria similarly spiked up? |
| 02:48.39 | Amarande | I remember there being a bit of a spike on Outland and Northrend too, but it was nowhere near as rough as Northrend to Cata |
| 02:48.40 | Kaylin | hope not :X |
| 02:48.54 | Kaylin | northrend-cata is brutal |
| 02:49.02 | Amarande | Yeah, and even my money doesn't do me any good |
| 02:49.18 | Amarande | There's only a few 77-80 Cata cloth items on the AH, and they're rather overpriced |
| 02:49.24 | Kaylin | you can buy all level 80 greens/blues and it's okay but they're quite commonly not available |
| 02:49.39 | Kaylin | and I mean cata 80 not lk |
| 02:49.44 | Amarande | Many with inappropriate-for-mages stats, to boot, like stamina+spirit |
| 02:50.02 | *** join/#wowuidev Iriel (~Iriel@173-8-135-209-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 02:50.03 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Iriel] by ChanServ |
| 02:50.03 | Amarande | although I could use some stamina right about now :| |
| 02:53.46 | TC-Work | ....so my downstairs renter just sent me this "Hey , just wanted to let you know our a/c isn't working properly. I think it may need freon or something. The air comes out cool (ish), but never gets cold" |
| 02:53.48 | TC-Work | >.< |
| 02:54.06 | TC-Work | the place is NOT a car |
| 02:56.29 | *** join/#wowuidev MentalPower (~textual@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Administrator/MentalPower) |
| 02:56.29 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v MentalPower] by ChanServ |
| 02:58.13 | *** join/#wowuidev Kodiack (~Colton@96-42-240-206.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com) |
| 03:11.55 | *** join/#wowuidev Xuri (b2070b96@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.7.11.150) |
| 03:18.04 | *** join/#wowuidev wereHamster (~tomc@unaffiliated/werehamster) |
| 03:24.01 | *** join/#wowuidev Adys (~adys@unaffiliated/adys) |
| 03:24.01 | kd3 | huh; they changed the launcher again |
| 03:26.00 | Adys | success |
| 03:26.12 | mckenziemc | ~fail Adys |
| 03:26.12 | purl | Adys, you Fail! |
| 03:26.17 | Adys | oh no i dont |
| 03:26.36 | Adys | finished installing arch linux on a 10 year old computer that only had a working 56k modem as a means to connect to the internet |
| 03:26.40 | Adys | its up and running lxde |
| 03:26.58 | Adys | thank you tethering phones |
| 03:27.45 | kd3 | oh, yuk |
| 03:28.31 | KarlKFI | ugh. WoWGuru has been hacked and keeps sending me spam comment email. and of course the page to disable emails is itself disabled... |
| 03:28.46 | Cairenn | KarlKFI: eww |
| 03:28.50 | Cairenn | that sucks |
| 03:28.57 | KarlKFI | and there's no way to remove addons or dissable my account |
| 03:29.11 | Iriel | Speaking of A/C, I just got done installing a nest |
| 03:29.15 | Cairenn | goes to check her spam box |
| 03:29.17 | Iriel | (http://www.nest.com/) |
| 03:29.18 | Adys | kd3: was incredibly easy too |
| 03:29.19 | KarlKFI | i've been getting dozens of emails a day |
| 03:29.46 | Adys | kd3: my phone usb port has just been repaired the other day; I was standing around like an idiot trying to connect the ethernet port (which wasnt working for whatever reason) |
| 03:30.10 | Adys | kd3: then I looked towards my phone and my face went all "IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW" |
| 03:30.19 | kd3 | lol |
| 03:31.29 | KarlKFI | Also: Why is AARP spamming me with email sand paper applications |
| 03:31.37 | KarlKFI | s/sand/and |
| 03:32.01 | Iriel | Sand paper was FAR more interesting |
| 03:32.03 | KarlKFI | Somehow they think I'm like 50+ or something |
| 03:33.46 | KarlKFI | I've also been getting "World of Warcraft: Mists of Pandaria Beta Test Invitation" spam emails for months |
| 03:34.32 | F16Gaming | KarlKFI: i find it funny since i'm in the beta and still getting invitations :P Gmail catches all those into the spam folder anyway |
| 03:34.43 | KarlKFI | ^^ |
| 03:35.12 | F16Gaming | but my OCD requires me to go into spam and click "Delete all" every time i get one :o |
| 03:35.28 | wereHamster | I've been getting the MoP beta invitations as well, but AFAICS all the links point to genuine blizzard websites. |
| 03:35.35 | kd3 | oh, you wouldn't like my account |
| 03:35.45 | kd3 | my spam folder averages ~750 emails |
| 03:35.52 | F16Gaming | :P |
| 03:36.57 | Amarande | heh |
| 03:37.01 | KarlKFI | wereHamster: all but one of the links are real |
| 03:37.06 | Amarande | I can't even view my spam folder anymore unless I change to a different browser :P |
| 03:37.15 | Kaylin | just uses thunderbird |
| 03:37.35 | wereHamster | aha, good for me only reading the text/plain part, and ignoring the html part :) |
| 03:38.06 | KarlKFI | there's one for battle.net that goes to http://www .mcpc-net.tk/cert/ login.asp?ref=https%3A%2F%2Fus.battle.net%2Faccount%2Fmanagement%2Findex.xml&app=bam (minus the spaces to avoid making it clickable |
| 03:38.16 | Amarande | Kaylin: The spam folder isn't accessible via a standard mail client, only via the webmail |
| 03:38.28 | wereHamster | yeah, just saw that in the html part. |
| 03:38.30 | Kaylin | right but why would you *need* to access it? |
| 03:38.35 | Kaylin | gmail's filter is very very good |
| 03:39.31 | F16Gaming | gmail once decided that github had sent me one too many emails and put it in spam :D |
| 03:40.03 | F16Gaming | it was a message to tell me about the new email sending feature |
| 03:43.50 | Thunder_Child | Iriel: All my nest would learn is i like it ~65F all the time |
| 03:43.56 | Arrowmaster | my spam folder on one of my gmail accounts is empty |
| 03:43.57 | Iriel | Heh |
| 03:44.02 | Arrowmaster | its so awesome |
| 03:44.07 | Iriel | My wife keeps turning ours down |
| 03:44.25 | KarlKFI | easier to train it than you |
| 03:44.50 | kd3 | emails away (days behind) |
| 03:45.01 | KarlKFI | fortunately for you you can use the web app to modify what it's learned |
| 03:45.37 | Adys | kd3: next time try the real england |
| 03:45.38 | Adys | its nice. |
| 03:46.32 | kd3 | I want to go at some point, visiting all of my namesake towns in the UK |
| 03:46.44 | *** join/#wowuidev p3lim (~p3lim@32.9.9.46.customer.cdi.no) |
| 03:47.03 | Adys | well give me a sign if you do, I have an extra room and theres plenty to do in leicester |
| 03:49.02 | Adys | fuck audio with a fecal spoon seriously |
| 03:49.21 | p3lim | Will GetFactionInfo return info about a faction, even though you've never encountered them? |
| 03:49.25 | Thunder_Child | is that one of the main attractions in leicester? |
| 03:51.11 | *** join/#wowuidev Adys_ (~adys@unaffiliated/adys) |
| 03:59.43 | mckenziemc | ~wowapi getfactioninfo |
| 03:59.51 | mckenziemc | ~api getfactioninfo |
| 03:59.51 | purl | !api getfactioninfo |
| 03:59.51 | lua_bot | Found 2 possible results for 'getfactioninfo': GetFactionInfo, GetFactionInfoByID |
| 04:00.12 | mckenziemc | : / |
| 04:00.39 | Adys_ | !api GetFactionInfo() |
| 04:00.39 | lua_bot | Found 2 possible results for 'GetFactionInfo()': GetFactionInfo, GetFactionInfoByID |
| 04:00.45 | Adys_ | eat cocks |
| 04:03.53 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (~Kaydeethr@wowwiki/Kaydeethree) |
| 04:06.25 | *** join/#wowuidev Esamynn (~chatzilla@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Esamynn) |
| 04:06.25 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Esamynn] by ChanServ |
| 04:07.16 | p3lim | Last one gave me enough info |
| 04:09.43 | mckenziemc | normally lua_bot gives a link to the function's page on wowprogramming, but only when there's one result |
| 04:24.05 | Torhal | !api GetFactionInfoByID |
| 04:24.06 | lua_bot | GetFactionInfoByID: Returns information about a faction or header listing (http://wowprogramming.com/docs/api/GetFactionInfoByID) |
| 04:24.08 | Torhal | :D |
| 04:25.50 | Arrowmaster | !api GetFactionInfo$ |
| 04:25.50 | lua_bot | GetFactionInfo: Returns information about a faction or header listing (http://wowprogramming.com/docs/api/GetFactionInfo) |
| 04:27.42 | mckenziemc | straps Torhal to Fisker and doesnt' light the fuse. |
| 04:28.30 | Torhal | gives mckenziemc a cardboard cut on his corneas. |
| 04:29.27 | mckenziemc | you're still mad? |
| 04:29.31 | mckenziemc | gives Torhal sedatives. |
| 04:29.43 | Torhal | gives mckenziemc a syringe of Drain-O. |
| 04:55.44 | Computerpunk | Fisker: ! =D |
| 04:58.59 | Fisker | why Computerpunk ? |
| 04:59.08 | Computerpunk | missed ya. |
| 05:02.20 | Fisker | but i'm tired |
| 05:03.06 | mckenziemc | then go back to sleep |
| 05:04.31 | *** join/#wowuidev Dewin (~Daniel@c-76-28-131-143.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 05:05.02 | Fisker | i got work |
| 05:08.38 | mckenziemc | so do i, but you don't see me sleeping now do you |
| 05:08.53 | mckenziemc | err wait |
| 05:08.57 | mckenziemc | needs sleep |
| 05:09.31 | *** part/#wowuidev mckenziemc (~Mark@69.224.70.199) |
| 05:19.32 | *** join/#wowuidev fore-[ghost] (~osnap@h184-61-251-89.cntral.dsl.dynamic.tds.net) |
| 05:49.57 | *** join/#wowuidev foreplay (~osnap@h184-61-251-89.cntral.dsl.dynamic.tds.net) |
| 05:53.25 | *** join/#wowuidev bluspacecow (~bluspacec@60-234-165-167.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) |
| 05:53.25 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v bluspacecow] by ChanServ |
| 06:07.23 | *** join/#wowuidev Aurorus (~Aurorus@unaffiliated/aurorus) |
| 06:08.33 | *** join/#wowuidev pompy (~Mike@68.36.135.0) |
| 06:16.01 | *** join/#wowuidev cbreak-work (~cbreak@drz-wizzer.drz.ethz.ch) |
| 06:24.48 | *** join/#wowuidev Elkano (~elkano@pool011.vpn.uni-saarland.de) |
| 06:24.48 | *** join/#wowuidev Elkano (~elkano@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Elkano) |
| 06:28.04 | pompy | bluspacecow: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/new-earthquake-heightens-alert-on-nz-volcano/story-fnd134gw-1226445867455 |
| 06:28.40 | Cairenn | LA-ish folks, you all okay? |
| 06:29.04 | bluspacecow | thank you pompy but i know - we liason with civil defence at work |
| 06:29.12 | bluspacecow | i was at work when it happened :) |
| 06:29.55 | bluspacecow | got a fax at work about it. I was all like "this is going to be another bad weather warning fax" and read "Tongariro possible eruption" and was like O_O |
| 06:30.53 | AcidWeb | Kaydeethree you here? |
| 06:32.42 | bluspacecow | anyone know a way of viewing .nib resource files without installing xcode ? |
| 06:34.22 | Fisker | notepad bluspacecow ! |
| 06:37.37 | Fisker | did you approve of this message bluspacecow ? |
| 06:39.32 | pompy | Cairenn: http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Quakes/quakes_all.html a 4.4 and 2.7 .. "light", hopefully no damage! |
| 06:39.49 | Cairenn | good |
| 06:43.14 | Shirik | strange |
| 06:43.22 | Shirik | why didn't I get an alert |
| 06:43.46 | Shirik | the last earthquake alert I got was a 3.1 in washington |
| 06:46.36 | Shirik | oh apparently my limit on california is 5.0 and above |
| 06:48.16 | pompy | Shirik: ther was a 4.7 in russia, whats your limit there? |
| 06:48.38 | Shirik | pacific northwest is 3.0, US is 5.0, and world is 6.0 |
| 06:49.44 | pompy | Cairenn: http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Quakes/usb000bqw4.php :O from Sat |
| 06:49.57 | Cairenn | *nod* |
| 06:50.09 | Cairenn | not big enough that I felt it here |
| 06:50.44 | Shirik | I still think the US could do with an earthquake early warning system |
| 06:57.13 | *** join/#wowuidev bluspacecow (~bluspacec@60-234-165-167.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) |
| 06:57.13 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v bluspacecow] by ChanServ |
| 06:58.41 | Mr_Rabies | hrm |
| 06:58.52 | Mr_Rabies | anyone know what font the game uses for text in ingame mail? |
| 06:59.05 | Mr_Rabies | i'm trying to figure out how to change that font :x |
| 06:59.41 | Mr_Rabies | i really, really hate that font |
| 07:08.05 | Mr_Rabies | rad, got it |
| 07:08.08 | Mr_Rabies | it's MORPHEUS.ttf |
| 07:08.18 | *** join/#wowuidev arton (~arton@tx-184-6-182-107.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) |
| 07:08.39 | *** join/#wowuidev arton_ (~arton@tx-184-6-182-107.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) |
| 07:10.11 | Shirik | I choose the red pill |
| 07:11.21 | Mr_Rabies | http://www.dafont.com/morpheus.font |
| 07:11.27 | Mr_Rabies | who in their right mind would ever use this for mail |
| 07:12.28 | Mr_Rabies | considering it reverts to Times New Roman for numbers doesn't help much either |
| 07:12.44 | Mr_Rabies | and many special characters |
| 07:12.45 | Dagmar | Someone trying to go with a high fantasy motif |
| 07:13.22 | Dagmar | The copy Blizzard ships does not revert to Times for numbers |
| 07:13.39 | *** join/#wowuidev ShadniX (shadow1st@b045.apm.etc.tu-bs.de) |
| 07:14.23 | Mr_Rabies | i'm pretty sure it does |
| 07:14.30 | Mr_Rabies | too lazy to check now |
| 07:16.11 | Mr_Rabies | http://i.minus.com/ibfsx3TG4Pc2Ab.jpg |
| 07:16.13 | Mr_Rabies | much improved |
| 07:17.01 | bluspacecow | WORMS! |
| 07:18.02 | Mr_Rabies | (that's a horse_ebooks reference) |
| 07:18.05 | Mr_Rabies | the best spambot |
| 07:18.09 | Cairenn | http://wormsarmageddon.team17.com/ |
| 07:18.16 | Mr_Rabies | https://twitter.com/Horse_ebooks/status/162236425633406977 |
| 07:18.24 | Shirik | no |
| 07:18.25 | Shirik | nonono |
| 07:18.27 | Mr_Rabies | i forgot the - |
| 07:18.31 | Shirik | I gave up that game a long time ago |
| 07:18.35 | Shirik | I will not be forced back into it |
| 07:18.41 | Cairenn | lol |
| 07:19.04 | bluspacecow | you know you want it |
| 07:19.08 | bluspacecow | don't deny it baby |
| 07:21.26 | Mr_Rabies | urgh i wish DBM would get profiles |
| 07:22.58 | zenzio | character profiles? |
| 07:23.32 | Mr_Rabies | settings profiles |
| 07:23.54 | Mr_Rabies | it's kind of a pain to have to reconfigure everything on every character |
| 07:24.04 | zenzio | aye |
| 07:24.14 | *** join/#wowuidev ShadniX_ (shadow1st@b045.apm.etc.tu-bs.de) |
| 07:26.47 | quse | copy paste the saved variables from the character folder to your other character |
| 07:30.23 | AcidWeb | kd3: ping |
| 07:31.34 | zenzio | http://tos-dr.info/ - nice idea |
| 07:33.41 | Mr_Rabies | total pain to hunt it down and copy it every time i make a settings change, quse :/ |
| 07:35.52 | quse | true |
| 07:46.23 | *** join/#wowuidev rtharper (~tomh@188-220-5-137.zone11.bethere.co.uk) |
| 07:46.24 | *** join/#wowuidev rtharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht) |
| 07:50.20 | Humbedooh | does the Korbut Flip inside rtharper's left nostril |
| 07:50.38 | *** join/#wowuidev cyndis (cyndis@lakka.kapsi.fi) |
| 07:50.45 | rtharper | kinky |
| 07:53.17 | Humbedooh | very difficult to do inside another person's nostril..! |
| 07:55.34 | bluspacecow | 10 10 9 9 7 10 2 10 |
| 07:56.11 | Humbedooh | 2?! :( |
| 07:56.23 | Humbedooh | oh well :\ |
| 07:56.26 | bluspacecow | the romanion judge |
| 07:56.31 | Humbedooh | figures! |
| 07:56.32 | bluspacecow | he hates everyone not from romania |
| 07:56.48 | Humbedooh | good thing his vote doesn't count then, hah |
| 07:57.18 | Humbedooh | walks away with a 17.000 score o/ |
| 08:03.06 | *** join/#wowuidev pb_ee1 (~pb_ee1@83.167.37.146) |
| 08:05.32 | *** join/#wowuidev Antze (~Antze@77.238.236.80) |
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| 08:14.18 | rtharper | don't worry |
| 08:14.24 | rtharper | they throw away the highest and lowest scores |
| 08:14.30 | rtharper | and average the remaining |
| 08:16.15 | Yoshimo | kd3, is it possible that your last uidiff is missing the diff file itself? |
| 08:17.09 | *** join/#wowuidev brykrys (~chatzilla@cpc2-craw2-0-0-cust1299.croy.cable.virginmedia.com) |
| 08:17.09 | *** join/#wowuidev brykrys (~chatzilla@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Dev/Brykrys) |
| 08:18.46 | bluspacecow | didn't get an attachment either :| |
| 08:30.49 | *** join/#wowuidev brykrys (~chatzilla@cpc2-craw2-0-0-cust1299.croy.cable.virginmedia.com) |
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| 09:49.38 | *** join/#wowuidev Computerpunk (~Computerp@79.115.140.141) |
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| 09:56.24 | karl_w_w | http://www.mwave.com.au/promo_rushhour.asp nice |
| 09:56.32 | karl_w_w | kinda wish I need one now |
| 10:19.10 | karl_w_w | http://www.catchoftheday.com.au/smallfish_info.php?products_id=46905 you think when they were brainstorming ideas somebody misheard "how about a portable chess set"? |
| 10:27.29 | Amarande | heh |
| 10:31.55 | zenzio | awesome |
| 10:39.41 | *** join/#wowuidev Kalroth (~Kalroth@d40aa5af.rev.stofanet.dk) |
| 10:45.14 | *** join/#wowuidev foreplay (~osnap@h184-61-251-89.cntral.dsl.dynamic.tds.net) |
| 11:00.47 | *** join/#wowuidev Neffi (~Neffi@pool-173-56-100-105.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
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| 11:02.13 | Neffi | Howdy. Will setting or passing nil introduce taint? For instance calling blizzframe:SetScript('blah',nil) or blizzframe.SetScript = nil (to unset any potential hooks) |
| 11:06.26 | foxlit | Neffi: in general, there's nothing special about nil |
| 11:06.32 | foxlit | so intuitively, yes, it wouldn't. |
| 11:07.13 | foxlit | There might be something special about how SetScript stores the handler internally, but testing that is hard. |
| 11:07.22 | Neffi | Well this is very strange, because I removed all of them and the taint remains. The only thing left is a hooksecurefunc(). Is there any scenario where taint would escape a secure hook? |
| 11:07.24 | foxlit | er. |
| 11:07.30 | foxlit | "yes, it would" not "yes, it wouldn't" |
| 11:08.13 | Neffi | Basically I'm keeping things forcibly hidden. I've totally reduced the code to nothing but: hooksecurefunc(frame,'Show',frame.Hide). Why is this tainting? |
| 11:08.28 | foxlit | frame is protected yeah? |
| 11:08.35 | Neffi | Yeah |
| 11:08.42 | Neffi | oh |
| 11:08.46 | Neffi | lol i see |
| 11:08.47 | Neffi | =| |
| 11:08.51 | foxlit | then calling frame:Hide() from an insecure path will not do anything |
| 11:09.22 | Neffi | Now I see the error. It shouldn't do anything. But the wierd thing is, taint.log says the Show() is failing, when the Hide() should be failing. |
| 11:10.08 | foxlit | well, you've now replaced "Show" |
| 11:10.22 | Neffi | hooksecurefunc doesn't replace anything, does it? |
| 11:10.32 | foxlit | it sets frame.Show, in any case |
| 11:10.55 | zenzio | I believe hooksecurefunc just makes your function run after the normal function is finished running |
| 11:10.55 | Neffi | I was under the impression hooksecurefunc performed its hook from a secure path |
| 11:11.06 | Neffi | zenzio: Yes, that's the idea |
| 11:11.11 | foxlit | Yes, so frame.Show should be secure, but it's a new function now. |
| 11:11.20 | foxlit | one that calls your function at the end of it :) |
| 11:11.38 | zenzio | isn't it something like "yo, hook me up but don't taint, kk?" |
| 11:11.45 | Neffi | So it's a matter of the SecureActionButtonTemplate and hooksecurefunc colliding, I guess? |
| 11:12.12 | foxlit | Does your frame fail to appear, or fail to disappear? |
| 11:12.23 | Neffi | It fails to appear, just like I want it to. |
| 11:12.51 | Neffi | They're frames from the default UI. I made a small stub script to preven tthem from reshowing, since a lot of frames are hard to just :Hide() and be done with. |
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| 11:13.58 | nevcairiel | just parent them to some hidden parent frame |
| 11:14.05 | Neffi | I suppose I'll alter the script to hack them to be infinitely small and positioned offscreen. |
| 11:14.09 | nevcairiel | that hides frames pretty well usually |
| 11:14.38 | Neffi | nevairiel: That was my old method, but a few frames in the default UI seem to reparent themselves. It's been a bitch to track it all down. |
| 11:15.30 | foxlit | hm, so it should actually be failing to hide, not failing to show |
| 11:15.50 | Neffi | They're being hidden before enter world. |
| 11:16.25 | Neffi | It's the main menu bar in particular. It's trying to reshow every time I enter combat. taint.log says Show() fails. this is what confused me |
| 11:16.52 | Neffi | That particular frame is easy to hide, but I want to make sure I have a script that works in this situation for frames that *aren't* easy to hide. |
| 11:17.09 | nevcairiel | unregister the events that make it shoe |
| 11:17.19 | nevcairiel | show |
| 11:17.39 | Neffi | The frame previously unregistered all events and all frame handlers. This is why I was wondering if passing :SetScript('blah',nil) introduced taint. |
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| 11:18.03 | foxlit | "Neffi: They're being hidden before enter world." << regardless. Suppose something wanted to show it in combat; :Show() should succeed, the hooked :Hide() should fail |
| 11:18.06 | Neffi | But even with the SetScript removed, all events on it and all its parent (recursively up and down) had their events unregistered. |
| 11:18.19 | Neffi | foxlit: You see my confusion |
| 11:18.51 | foxlit | meh, works correctly for me now |
| 11:19.07 | foxlit | testing with /run hooksecurefunc(TargetFrame, "Show", TargetFrame.Hide) |
| 11:19.38 | Neffi | I'm already doing it to TargetFrame. No taint there. It's only the action buttons. |
| 11:20.45 | Neffi | Anyway, this is all moot. There's a couple other methods of hiding it. I just came here to make sure I understood taint correctly. |
| 11:21.09 | foxlit | and we came to the conclusion that no one does? :) |
| 11:21.23 | Neffi | I guess so |
| 11:22.01 | Neffi | If you're still curious, write a script that does that hooksecurefunc on MainMenuBar, and then recursively to its children, and hides them. Then enter combat. |
| 11:22.16 | Neffi | That's what my implementation does now |
| 11:26.49 | foxlit | Neffi: I think things remain hidden because some parent (like MainMenuBar itself) is not re-shown |
| 11:27.34 | foxlit | rather, it's trying to call :Show() on some child, succeeds, tries to call Hide in the hook, fails, logs against the Show call, remains hidden because of the hidden parent |
| 11:28.40 | Neffi | That makes sense. The hook helper is within the execution path, right? |
| 11:29.58 | Neffi | That must be it, since removing the hooksecurefunc did clear all taint. I even restored :SetScript('blah',nil) and other instances of setting "secure" values to nil and that's not introducing taint. |
| 11:30.06 | Neffi | So apparently nil itself is not able to carry taint |
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| 11:30.50 | foxlit | oh, it is |
| 11:31.18 | foxlit | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:32.34 | Neffi | You originally introduced "foo" securely though |
| 11:33.27 | Neffi | insecurely* |
| 11:33.59 | Neffi | I think it's a matter of the variable not existing at all, so issecurevariable automatically returns nil. |
| 11:34.44 | Neffi | That's why I assume nil cannot carry taint with it. I'd have to find a testcase where I can inject nil into a secure codepath where I KNOW it would make its way back to the taint log. |
| 11:35.06 | Neffi | But the only instance I can think to do that would just cause an error anyway. |
| 11:35.59 | foxlit | to be more correct, it doesn't change the secure flag on the field. |
| 11:36.13 | foxlit | If you nil a secure variable, it remains secure. If you nil a tainted variable, it remains tainted |
| 11:36.41 | Neffi | Well yeah |
| 11:36.43 | Neffi | Or so I assume |
| 11:37.16 | foxlit | no need for assumptions; that's trivial to test for tables. |
| 11:37.44 | Neffi | The only case I can think of is if the default UI uses memoization |
| 11:38.26 | Neffi | Then you can safely test knowing issecurevariable is returning the correct value |
| 11:38.28 | foxlit | or you could use issecurevariable on any framexml-created table. |
| 11:38.44 | Neffi | Set something that didn't yet exist to nil? |
| 11:39.06 | foxlit | Set any framexml-set key to nil |
| 11:39.14 | Neffi | If you do, for instance, PlayerFrame=nil, issecurevariable still returns nil because PlayerFrame doesn't exist at all |
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| 11:41.12 | foxlit | that's not what I'm actually suggesting |
| 11:41.17 | foxlit | nor is the "because" clause correct. |
| 11:41.43 | foxlit | if you try something like /dump issecurevariable("This key totally doesn't exist in the global namespace"), it'll still return 1 |
| 11:42.34 | Neffi | Well nilling PlayerFrame causes it to return nil, so you've proved me wrong. Nil does cause taint. |
| 11:42.44 | Neffi | Didn't think to even try a non-existent value |
| 11:43.30 | foxlit | it's the presence of the __index metatable that's being nasty around frames |
| 11:44.37 | foxlit | If you nil a field on a widget, issecurevariable will actually tell you stuff about the __index metatable's field |
| 11:44.51 | foxlit | If you nil a field on a normal table, you'll taint the field |
| 11:45.28 | foxlit | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:46.23 | Neffi | lol i can't copy text from HexChat? |
| 11:46.25 | Neffi | ugh |
| 11:47.21 | Neffi | Well I best be back to leveling. |
| 11:47.28 | Neffi | Thanks foxlit. I learned something. |
| 11:47.53 | foxlit | that this rabbit-hole is never-ending? :) |
| 11:48.03 | Neffi | heh |
| 11:48.32 | foxlit | but anyway, if you really, positively, absolutely need to hide something, use SecureHandlers' WrapScript to securely do frame:Hide() in its OnShow |
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| 11:57.52 | bluspacecow | https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=463269477027766&set=a.343053705716011.80331.342503639104351&type=1&ref=nf |
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| 12:03.55 | bluspacecow | i hungry BRB |
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| 13:08.12 | mikma | http://imgur.com/gallery/PxLlG |
| 13:09.47 | zenzio | hehe |
| 13:20.31 | mikma | http://imgur.com/gallery/cDjQE |
| 13:30.54 | mikma | http://www.break.com/index/commentating-by-someone-who-has-no-clue-whats-going-on-2356144 |
| 13:46.52 | *** join/#wowuidev mckenziemc (~Mark@69.224.70.199) |
| 13:58.05 | bluspacecow | Cairenn|afk: http://imgur.com/gallery/7RoVT |
| 14:03.05 | mckenziemc | bluspacecow: |
| 14:03.17 | bluspacecow | hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm |
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| 14:14.18 | Fisker | hey kd3 |
| 14:14.26 | Fisker | with 32GB of RAM you wouldn't have forgotten to attach the diff |
| 14:15.15 | bluspacecow | u mad fisker ? |
| 14:15.31 | Fisker | umad bluspacecow |
| 14:15.32 | Fisker | sry |
| 14:15.38 | bluspacecow | lol |
| 14:15.41 | Shirik | hey Fisker |
| 14:15.57 | mckenziemc | accesses Fisker's memory and randomly deletes |
| 14:16.01 | Fisker | hey Shirik |
| 14:16.05 | Fisker | you're late |
| 14:16.10 | bluspacecow | hay Shirik |
| 14:16.24 | Shirik | hugs bluspacecow |
| 14:16.29 | bluspacecow | hai2u |
| 14:16.33 | mckenziemc | dye bluspacecow |
| 14:16.40 | bluspacecow | what color |
| 14:26.00 | mckenziemc | Fisker red |
| 14:26.14 | bluspacecow | fisker has a color named after him? |
| 14:26.18 | bluspacecow | is it mad ? |
| 14:26.23 | bluspacecow | a mad red ? |
| 14:26.27 | mckenziemc | why do you think it's red |
| 14:26.32 | Fisker | umad? |
| 14:26.35 | bluspacecow | i dunno |
| 14:26.38 | Fisker | a |
| 14:26.40 | Fisker | b |
| 14:26.41 | bluspacecow | maybe he lieks strawberrys |
| 14:27.05 | mckenziemc | strawberries are pretty angry too |
| 14:28.18 | bluspacecow | so mad |
| 14:28.51 | mckenziemc | mad space cow disease |
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| 14:57.11 | Yoshimo | Does this LUI Addon send addonmessages to people on your friendlist by chance? |
| 15:05.03 | Dagmar | Nope. That's probably the work of Chinese intelligence operatives. |
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| 15:06.28 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v nicoli_s] by ChanServ |
| 15:16.09 | Shirik | woah |
| 15:16.14 | Shirik | this is bad for samsung http://www.zdnet.com/apple-patent-trial-samsung-scrutinised-iphone-to-improve-galaxy-ui-7000002333/ |
| 15:17.09 | Adys | Debian Now Defaults To Xfce Desktop |
| 15:17.11 | Adys | haha |
| 15:17.23 | Adys | Arrowmaster: high five! |
| 15:18.15 | Shirik | both Debian and Xfce suck |
| 15:18.54 | Arrowmaster | link? |
| 15:19.00 | Adys | http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTE1NTk |
| 15:19.42 | Shirik | phoronix goes on my adblock blacklist |
| 15:20.08 | Adys | i had adblock unpaused and the layout loode completely fucked |
| 15:20.15 | Adys | er, paused |
| 15:20.18 | Adys | it looks pristine with adblock |
| 15:20.54 | Shirik | I keep adblock in a blacklist-only mode. I blacklist any site that has intrusive ads (ones that take over my screen, or pop up when I click on the page, etc.) |
| 15:21.00 | Shirik | If you're going to be nice to me, I let you make money |
| 15:21.05 | Shirik | if you try to take over my computer, screw you |
| 15:21.24 | Adys | i keep it in whitelist mode |
| 15:21.28 | Adys | i have quite a few there |
| 15:21.28 | Arrowmaster | im guessing gnome will still be on the first dvd and the default on the netinstall |
| 15:21.30 | Adys | including Ars |
| 15:24.07 | Kaylin | adblock plus allows unintrusive ads by default too |
| 15:25.13 | bluspacecow | what is an acceptable gear level for raiding ? |
| 15:25.40 | Adys | enough to cover your junk |
| 15:26.07 | Kaylin | take the mean of the previous raid tier's gear and the current heroic 5's gear |
| 15:26.17 | Kaylin | that should be fine for starting the current raid tier |
| 15:26.48 | bluspacecow | i've been doing LFR 5 mans on my mage and wondering if its time for to try raid finder. |
| 15:26.50 | Kaylin | in this case both I think are 378 |
| 15:26.55 | foxlit | take the RF requirement, imo. |
| 15:27.07 | nevcairiel | bluspacecow: for 5 mans its called LFD, not LFR. :p |
| 15:27.10 | Kaylin | raid finder is tuned for stupid, it's higher than a general req for raids |
| 15:27.33 | bluspacecow | nevcairiel: ha ha. its been so long since i played im using the wrong terminology! |
| 15:27.36 | foxlit | Kaylin: works both ways; raid finder mechanics are also tuned for stupid :) |
| 15:27.39 | Kaylin | though in this case I think 372 will get you in raid finder |
| 15:27.40 | bluspacecow | :| |
| 15:27.57 | bluspacecow | <----- 380 |
| 15:28.14 | Kaylin | go for it then, you can totally afk most fights and not only win gear but not die too |
| 15:28.29 | nevcairiel | lfr really that easy? |
| 15:28.44 | nevcairiel | never did it yet |
| 15:28.46 | Kaylin | yes. some fights have aoe mechanics that kill you if your healers are also afk |
| 15:29.02 | bluspacecow | is LFR the raid one ? |
| 15:29.03 | Kaylin | like the first one, though depending on class you can soak it if you're really not wanting to move. |
| 15:29.05 | Kaylin | yes |
| 15:30.28 | Adys | wow |
| 15:30.28 | Adys | https://github.com/bundestag/gesetze#deutsche-bundesgesetze--und-verordnungen |
| 15:30.34 | Adys | google autotranslated that so well |
| 15:30.42 | Adys | i didnt notice it was an autotranslate until i hovered it |
| 15:30.47 | bluspacecow | oh shiznit fall of deathwing |
| 15:31.06 | Adys | Requests can be happy to pull open. |
| 15:31.07 | nevcairiel | looks like the original text for me! |
| 15:31.08 | Adys | then again |
| 15:31.18 | ZorbaTHut | google translation + google glass is going to be a combination straight out of scifi |
| 15:31.44 | Adys | google glass itself is straight out of scifi |
| 15:31.52 | nevcairiel | dont they already have something like that, take a photo of text and it translates for you on the spot |
| 15:31.58 | Dagmar | At least until the patent trolls start trying to sue for inventing speech, translation of speech, and looking at things |
| 15:31.59 | nevcairiel | although it costs money |
| 15:32.01 | ZorbaTHut | I can't really argue with that, admittedly |
| 15:32.06 | Dagmar | oh pardon me, looking at things "using a computer" |
| 15:32.11 | ZorbaTHut | nevcairiel, I've seen something neater - you hold up the camera and it translates the video stream in realtime |
| 15:32.18 | nevcairiel | or that |
| 15:32.27 | ZorbaTHut | weirdest thing ever. you look at a video you're taking and the words are in a different language |
| 15:32.29 | nevcairiel | glass is just a new interface to that |
| 15:32.38 | Adys | Dagmar: and don't forget "using glass-based gadget that comfortably stays in front of your eyes" |
| 15:32.59 | Dagmar | I think perhaps these folks need to realize that if you sue someone for $5 million dollars over your bullshit patent, half that can easily have someone put a bullet into your cranium. |
| 15:33.16 | Dagmar | I'm really beginning to think that's the efficient solution to this problem |
| 15:33.45 | Dagmar | Pull some payday lawsuit crap, and have a hit put out on you for generally interfering with the progress of humanity |
| 15:35.12 | Dagmar | Actually, unless some fucker has patented the damn thing, Timothy May's "assassination politics" mechanisms would probably work really fucking well for that |
| 15:35.57 | Dagmar | ...and since we're no longer talking about a double-blinded anonymized pool for betting on when government officials will be unexpectedly inhumed, it's not so likely to bring the heat down |
| 15:36.24 | Dagmar | Silk Road here we come |
| 15:37.32 | Adys | http://i.imgur.com/Exucv.jpg |
| 15:37.36 | Adys | that is so fucking awesome |
| 15:37.38 | Adys | holy shit |
| 15:37.41 | Adys | just wow |
| 15:38.10 | p3lim | Where is that? |
| 15:38.21 | Dagmar | Shopped |
| 15:38.23 | nevcairiel | mars, probably |
| 15:38.24 | Adys | victoria crater, on mars |
| 15:38.25 | Dagmar | No tire tracks |
| 15:38.28 | Dagmar | ;) |
| 15:38.41 | Adys | its from Opportunity back in 2008 or something |
| 15:38.47 | Shirik | that planet got owned by a meteor |
| 15:38.54 | Adys | 2006* |
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| 15:38.57 | nevcairiel | that plent frequently gets owned by meteors |
| 15:39.06 | nevcairiel | planet* |
| 15:39.14 | Kaylin | better Mars than us. |
| 15:39.17 | nevcairiel | its athmosphere isnt all that protective |
| 15:39.28 | p3lim | shopped, owned, whatever, it looks cool |
| 15:39.48 | Shirik | so how do we make mars habitable? |
| 15:40.00 | Dagmar | Well, we start by killing politicians. |
| 15:40.01 | nevcairiel | 1) find its water reserves |
| 15:40.13 | Shirik | diamondilium shield? |
| 15:40.16 | Kaylin | 1. evolve to eat dirt |
| 15:40.27 | Kaylin | 2. ???? |
| 15:40.30 | nevcairiel | eating dirt is no good when there is no air to breeze |
| 15:40.39 | Dagmar | We will never colonize Mars as long as lobbyists can't pre-arrange for their multinational conglomerates to own it all first. |
| 15:40.44 | nevcairiel | I mean, can always build a big dome to house us |
| 15:40.53 | nevcairiel | but creating an athmosphere would be kick ass :p |
| 15:40.56 | Dagmar | Only way to fix that is to kill most of the politicians |
| 15:42.15 | Kaylin | and everyone who wants to be one |
| 15:43.39 | Shirik | 5.18x10^18 kg of atmosphere |
| 15:43.47 | Shirik | that's a lot |
| 15:44.15 | Shirik | I imagine moving it from earth to Mars is not ideal |
| 15:44.20 | Shirik | so we would need to create all of those molecules |
| 15:44.22 | nevcairiel | we need ours! |
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| 15:49.39 | Kaylin | what we need is a large flying vacuum and a nebula. |
| 15:49.47 | Dagmar | Or, you know... lichen |
| 15:49.58 | Kaylin | that's not fun at all. |
| 15:50.28 | Dagmar | Sure it's fun. It's like human creep. |
| 15:50.51 | Kaylin | does it come with human zerglings? |
| 15:51.05 | Dagmar | Sure. Just look at Germany |
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| 15:58.15 | bluspacecow | i keel deathwing |
| 15:59.23 | Shirik | pets bluspacecow |
| 15:59.36 | bluspacecow | *licks shirik's hand* |
| 15:59.38 | Kaylin | did he drop any loot? |
| 15:59.49 | Shirik | now go buy http://wowtcg.cryptozoic.com/products/battle-aspects |
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| 16:20.19 | *** join/#wowuidev crock (crock@nco79-1-82-244-145-30.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 16:20.22 | crock | Hi ^^ |
| 16:20.47 | crock | Can we talk about emulation here ? |
| 16:21.09 | nicoli_s | no |
| 16:21.27 | crock | Do you know a channel where we can ? |
| 16:22.03 | nicoli_s | not off the top of my head no |
| 16:22.40 | *** join/#wowuidev Computerpunk (~Computerp@79.115.140.141) |
| 16:22.42 | crock | Is the top of your head special ? :D |
| 16:23.24 | Krapsy | its where he gets his orders from the Council |
| 16:23.30 | karl_w_w | nicoli_s has the most special head top here |
| 16:23.52 | nicoli_s | my head top is full of dreadies |
| 16:24.04 | crock | Seriously, I'm French what does head top means ? |
| 16:24.20 | nicoli_s | just means first thign i think of |
| 16:24.27 | crock | thx ^^ |
| 16:24.31 | crock | bye then ^^ |
| 16:24.34 | *** part/#wowuidev crock (crock@nco79-1-82-244-145-30.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 16:25.30 | karl_w_w | don't be mean to the french |
| 16:25.38 | karl_w_w | they might veto you or something |
| 16:26.03 | *** join/#wowuidev pb_ee1 (~pb_ee1@83.167.37.146) |
| 16:26.26 | bluspacecow | LOL https://twitter.com/SarcasticRover/status/232875488115318784 |
| 16:26.58 | nicoli_s | i didnt think i was being mean |
| 16:29.02 | karl_w_w | bluspacecow is so easily amused |
| 16:29.25 | bluspacecow | *licks karl_w_w* |
| 16:29.48 | karl_w_w | even a lick is enough |
| 16:30.34 | karl_w_w | yes he is not amused by ducks that don't need satellites |
| 16:30.47 | karl_w_w | s/s/t/ |
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| 16:34.33 | *** join/#wowuidev bluspacecow (~bluspacec@60-234-165-167.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) |
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| 16:34.33 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v bluspacecow] by zelazny.freenode.net |
| 16:36.40 | karl_w_w | how did that guy join the channel and then 3 seconds later Ping timeout: 255 seconds? |
| 16:36.46 | karl_w_w | witchcraft? |
| 16:37.06 | TC-Work | couldnt that be a freenode timeout? |
| 16:37.12 | TC-Work | and he could just not have been in channel |
| 16:38.08 | Dagmar | More a matter of ignoring hte initial anti-bot pings |
| 16:41.27 | *** join/#wowuidev bluspacecow (~bluspacec@60-234-165-167.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) |
| 16:41.27 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v bluspacecow] by ChanServ |
| 16:42.00 | pompy | Adys: if you thought that was awesome, check out this http://www.panoramas.dk/mars/greeley-haven.html |
| 16:42.30 | Adys | sweet sexy alien sex |
| 16:43.09 | karl_w_w | booring |
| 16:43.48 | Adys | that sky looks so god damn awesome |
| 16:44.10 | nevcairiel | you prefer that color to our blue? |
| 16:44.23 | TC-Work | obviously they have not figured out how to drive it, they keep going in circles :p |
| 16:44.59 | nevcairiel | you try driving with a 14 minute latency |
| 16:45.10 | *** join/#wowuidev starlon (~starlon@melody.lyrical.net) |
| 16:45.10 | TC-Work | I do, it's called traffic |
| 16:45.19 | Adys | nevcairiel: its not so much about the color |
| 16:46.05 | Adys | just the fact you can look at it and think of the implications |
| 16:49.44 | Fisker | stares into the sun |
| 16:50.20 | Fisker | there's life on mars |
| 16:50.29 | nevcairiel | robotic life! |
| 16:50.31 | Fisker | there's obviously tracks after some sort of vehicle behind that rover |
| 16:53.43 | *** join/#wowuidev pompy1 (~Mike@68.36.135.0) |
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| 17:01.16 | bluspacecow | raiding is serious bizness |
| 17:01.28 | bluspacecow | i got called a troll for making light of it :P |
| 17:02.56 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (~funk@5ad4d5c1.bb.sky.com) |
| 17:02.56 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (~funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 17:03.24 | mikma | geekporn! http://www.ustream.tv/NASAJPL |
| 17:03.28 | mikma | started 10mins ago |
| 17:04.10 | TC-Work | how is that geekporn? |
| 17:04.22 | mikma | cause every geek is getting a hardone while watching |
| 17:04.36 | TC-Work | not from her |
| 17:04.50 | mikma | you're watching her? i'm just listening :D |
| 17:04.53 | Dagmar | It's just a matter of alcohol. |
| 17:05.00 | *** join/#wowuidev pompy (~Mike@68.36.135.0) |
| 17:05.01 | TC-Work | I'm doing neither |
| 17:05.48 | mikma | armflaps! |
| 17:06.44 | TC-Work | "Size: About the size of a car -- 10 feet long (not including the arm), 9 feet wide and 7 feet tall! " what fucking car is even close to 9 feet wide? |
| 17:06.57 | TC-Work | or 7 feet tall for that matter |
| 17:07.42 | mikma | hmmwr |
| 17:08.32 | Arrowmaster | TC-Work: a Canyonero |
| 17:08.42 | mikma | oh man |
| 17:08.52 | mikma | they even put a QR code on the robot arm of curiosity..... |
| 17:08.58 | mikma | that's sooooooooo useful |
| 17:09.06 | TC-Work | Arrowmaster: Car != SUV |
| 17:09.25 | Arrowmaster | do you know what a Canyonero is? |
| 17:09.28 | TC-Work | yes |
| 17:09.38 | bluspacecow | a winnebago ? |
| 17:09.57 | TC-Work | RV is not a car either |
| 17:10.04 | mikma | tc-work: http://imgur.com/gallery/PxLlG |
| 17:10.39 | TC-Work | I think it's larger than any SUV i know of either, but it's a heel of a lot closer |
| 17:10.44 | TC-Work | hell* |
| 17:11.18 | mikma | THAT'S SO AWESOME |
| 17:11.24 | mikma | DUCKFACE POSE OF CURIOSITY |
| 17:11.50 | bluspacecow | where ? |
| 17:12.12 | mikma | that just showed the thumbnailversion of it in the broadcast |
| 17:12.28 | *** join/#wowuidev pompy (~Mike@68.36.135.0) |
| 17:12.30 | Arrowmaster | so are they going to be able to get it out of the crater later? |
| 17:13.57 | Arrowmaster | also i wonder why the pics are black and white, it doesnt take much more additional bandwidth for the color data |
| 17:14.40 | TC-Work | because they were not taken with the 'meant for humans' cameras |
| 17:14.49 | mikma | they are just thumbnails they've downloaded |
| 17:15.03 | mikma | that will be downloading the hd one's within day/two |
| 17:15.14 | Arrowmaster | they had color versions of the first pics after a while |
| 17:15.28 | *** join/#wowuidev Droolio (~drool@host86-159-1-110.range86-159.btcentralplus.com) |
| 17:15.29 | Arrowmaster | ZOOM! ENHANCE! |
| 17:15.36 | mikma | that's cause they downloaded them |
| 17:15.40 | *** join/#wowuidev Wa (~wa@50.45.216.44) |
| 17:15.52 | bluspacecow | also earth to mars bandwidth isn't very high |
| 17:16.04 | pompy | http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48559442/ns/technology_and_science-science/ |
| 17:16.34 | Arrowmaster | yeah i think they said its lower than a 56k modem |
| 17:16.50 | mikma | you think? :D |
| 17:17.15 | bluspacecow | 56k modem was fine for porn. should be fine for this :P |
| 17:17.25 | Dagmar | low-resolution porn |
| 17:17.29 | Dagmar | GIFs |
| 17:17.34 | Dagmar | Noe. |
| 17:17.40 | TC-Work | I hope no one calls NASA then |
| 17:17.55 | Fisker | i'm hungry |
| 17:18.07 | TC-Work | have some steak |
| 17:18.11 | TC-Work | blusteak |
| 17:18.15 | mikma | martian porn |
| 17:18.24 | Kaylin | bluspacesteak? |
| 17:22.14 | pompy | damn there was a 5.8 in fiji and a 5.6 in alaska peninsula http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Quakes/quakes_all.html |
| 17:22.20 | pompy | and a 3.4 and 4.5 in cali a few hours ago |
| 17:24.25 | nicoli_s | im so glad we didnt have any quakes when i was in cali |
| 17:24.32 | nicoli_s | my wife was super freaked out about the possibnlity |
| 17:24.45 | Kaylin | just watch that animaniacs episode |
| 17:25.28 | Kaylin | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHi4UHT7ZKo |
| 17:30.48 | Dagmar | pompy: You should probably never even consider living in San Francisco |
| 17:31.04 | Dagmar | 2's are a weekly thing |
| 17:31.22 | TC-Work | pompy: 4.4 |
| 17:31.46 | *** join/#wowuidev ZorbaTHut (tocohl@maximilian.pavlovian.net) |
| 17:32.11 | TC-Work | I never feel any quakes and there are tons here |
| 17:33.25 | Dagmar | Used to them now? |
| 17:34.03 | TC-Work | no, i dont actually feel them |
| 17:35.39 | Dagmar | Maybe less drinking? |
| 17:36.16 | Kaylin | maybe more trampolines |
| 17:36.30 | TC-Work | I'd prefer bigger quakes thanks. |
| 17:37.10 | *** join/#wowuidev sylvanaar_work (~sylvanaar@pdpc/supporter/active/sylvanaar) |
| 17:37.16 | *** join/#wowuidev pigeon (~pigeon@eth5284.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net) |
| 17:39.53 | Ackis | Dagmar: pompy will live in san fran because they're more accepting of his sexuality |
| 17:40.28 | Ackis | Torhal: ^ |
| 17:40.47 | Ackis | on a side note I can't find my Pokemon Rumble Blast :( |
| 17:41.24 | Dagmar | They won't be very tolerant of his "OMG my water glass is RIPPLING!" tho |
| 17:41.51 | Dagmar | You're not allowed to be a pussy about earthquakes there |
| 17:41.55 | Kaylin | (see: this week's what-if xkcd) |
| 17:46.30 | Ackis | Employee: Im not coming to work, im sick. |
| 17:46.37 | Ackis | BOSS: When I'm sick I have sex with my wife, try it! |
| 17:46.44 | Ackis | Employee called back: It worked. Im better. And you have nice home. |
| 17:47.18 | sylvanaar_work | funny |
| 17:48.49 | Arrowmaster | haha http://imgur.com/qticC |
| 17:50.59 | Dagmar | Too much work. |
| 17:51.08 | Dagmar | 1" sticknote on the bottom of the mouse > that |
| 17:51.26 | foxlit | Dagmar just casually cuts the monitor cable while passing by. |
| 17:51.49 | bluspacecow | http://imgur.com/r/funny/ZkMqw |
| 17:52.15 | Dagmar | foxlit: Nah. Partially unplug it maybe |
| 17:53.11 | Kaylin | Is anyone else bothered by the kerning in Calibri? Is it just me did I screw something up? |
| 17:53.46 | Arrowmaster | Kaylin: that entire font family looks horrible to me |
| 17:53.56 | Arrowmaster | if you dont have cleartype enabled it looks like ass |
| 17:54.06 | Arrowmaster | and i dislike cleartype |
| 17:54.57 | pompy | ok |
| 17:55.00 | Kaylin | idk the issue I am having is the spacing between letters and the space character doesn't appear visually constant so different words/letter combinations appear to have greatly variable spacing between words where some look double-spaced and some look like they have no space even though both just have a single space. |
| 17:55.19 | Arrowmaster | Kaylin: yeah thats part of why i hate cleartype |
| 17:55.52 | Kaylin | Okay, I just had to make sure I wasn't doing something wrong, my boss sent me something in this font and I was like oh god what the hell is going on am I losing my mind! |
| 17:57.11 | Arrowmaster | you can try messing with the cleartype calibration settings |
| 17:57.16 | *** join/#wowuidev Telshin (~textual@67.58.77.206) |
| 17:57.35 | AcidWeb | http://store.steampowered.com/news/8584/ |
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| 17:59.09 | Arrowmaster | well thats interesting |
| 17:59.25 | Kaylin | hmm? |
| 17:59.32 | Arrowmaster | what AcidWeb linked |
| 18:00.01 | Arrowmaster | windows might finally get a universal software updater (thats not the fucking microsoft store in win8) |
| 18:00.52 | AcidWeb | Valve starting thinking about linux, valve starting app shop, valve starting own kickstarter. |
| 18:01.12 | AcidWeb | Hats cause madness. |
| 18:01.39 | Arrowmaster | i didnt hear about that last one |
| 18:02.54 | AcidWeb | Arrowmaster: google Steam Greenlight |
| 18:03.14 | Corrodias2 | isn't that a community voting system? not a kickstarter project? |
| 18:03.36 | Arrowmaster | yeah |
| 18:03.54 | Arrowmaster | thats just voting on what gets included on steam |
| 18:03.54 | AcidWeb | OK. My bad. |
| 18:04.14 | Arrowmaster | so they dont have to work on approving all the indie games |
| 18:10.49 | Fisker | so old AcidWeb |
| 18:11.09 | Fisker | and they're not Arrowmaster |
| 18:11.15 | Fisker | Microsoft App store is dumb :/ |
| 18:11.21 | Fisker | it had so much fucking potential |
| 18:11.26 | Fisker | but Microsoft had to go ruin it all |
| 18:12.17 | Fisker | they could probably have inspired a new cross-platform library for desktop apps |
| 18:12.25 | Fisker | making both ARM and x86 equal platforms |
| 18:12.47 | Fisker | but nah "this is a live tile, i haven't touched it, now i have, omg wow" |
| 18:14.03 | AcidWeb | So sad Fisker. |
| 18:14.12 | Fisker | how so AcidWeb ? |
| 18:14.41 | *** join/#wowuidev bluspacecow (~bluspacec@60-234-165-167.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) |
| 18:14.41 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v bluspacecow] by ChanServ |
| 18:14.46 | Fisker | hey bluspacecow |
| 18:14.48 | AcidWeb | M$ ceased to be innovative some time ago. |
| 18:14.58 | bluspacecow | oh hai |
| 18:15.20 | Fisker | I don't know who M-dollarsign is |
| 18:15.33 | Fisker | being dumb doesn't mean you're not innovative |
| 18:15.38 | Fisker | just look at apple |
| 18:16.00 | Fisker | (oh burn) |
| 18:22.45 | Jamash | sup homies |
| 18:22.54 | F16Gaming | *forget a comma* *entire addon fails* :D |
| 18:22.57 | Jamash | I hate microsoft so much |
| 18:23.24 | Jamash | spent an hour yesterday trying to set up windows vista home premium to allow RDP logins from a non-admin user |
| 18:23.30 | Jamash | gave up |
| 18:23.35 | Jamash | made RDP user an admin |
| 18:24.04 | Jamash | this is *after* installing a probably-TOS-violating patch to allow RDP logins *at all* |
| 18:24.28 | Corrodias2 | you filthy pirate |
| 18:24.32 | sylvanaar_work | dont the home editions not include RDP servers |
| 18:24.40 | Corrodias2 | pay $200 immediately for the full OS! |
| 18:24.46 | sylvanaar_work | you need professional |
| 18:25.00 | Jamash | this is also on a system that 1. has a fully legit windows serial key, 2. is cracked because it won't accept it |
| 18:25.35 | Jamash | I'd rather teach my cousin to use linux than pay to "upgrade" any version of linux |
| 18:25.46 | Jamash | s/of linux/windows/ |
| 18:25.54 | Jamash | bah |
| 18:26.13 | sylvanaar_work | thats what you say now |
| 18:32.40 | Kaylin | I'm decently happy getting free versions of Windows through my university (free is a strong word, but since I am attending classes already and would even without the MSDN-AA subscription it's a fringe benefit so I guess it's free in that sense). I'm not sure if I'd buy a copy without it being free to me, I have been happy using Linux before. |
| 18:32.43 | *** join/#wowuidev mckenziemc (~Mark@69.224.70.199) |
| 18:33.17 | TC-Work | If you play a lot of games, you more or less need windows |
| 18:34.20 | Fisker | pls Jamash get your licenses straight :( also lol vista |
| 18:34.41 | *** join/#wowuidev Computerpunk (~Computerp@79.115.140.141) |
| 18:34.54 | Kaylin | atm I play WoW, Diablo II, and League of Legends, the latter being the only one I've never played on *nix and never looked into it. Assuming it works I don't think I'd miss anything :X |
| 18:35.11 | Jamash | Fisker: inorite |
| 18:35.13 | Jamash | it's not my computer |
| 18:36.07 | Fisker | why didn't you just use teamviewer? |
| 18:36.12 | Jamash | I "consult" in exchange for food |
| 18:36.26 | Jamash | I want to log in to a background session without disturbing the person at the desk |
| 18:36.30 | TC-Work | Kaylin: Which is fine because you don't play a lot of games. Although i would not give up leage for linux |
| 18:36.46 | TC-Work | league* |
| 18:36.50 | Fisker | where's your Terminal Services CAL then Jamash ? |
| 18:36.56 | Jamash | I don't know what that means |
| 18:37.26 | Fisker | there's not even a license for what you're "consulting" for |
| 18:37.39 | Fisker | unless they're running a server with terminal services CAL's |
| 18:37.46 | *** join/#wowuidev farmbuyer (~farmbuyer@cpe-24-166-211-194.woh.res.rr.com) |
| 18:38.23 | TC-Work | TS CAL's are expensive little buggers |
| 18:38.25 | *** join/#wowuidev Elkano (~elkano@pool010.vpn.uni-saarland.de) |
| 18:38.25 | *** join/#wowuidev Elkano (~elkano@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Elkano) |
| 18:38.25 | Jamash | my care value for microsoft licensing niceties cannot be expressed in a 64-bit double due to underflow |
| 18:38.39 | Fisker | wthat's not my point |
| 18:38.51 | Fisker | you need to actually "hack" the client in order to enable it |
| 18:38.56 | Jamash | I said that already |
| 18:38.57 | farmbuyer | Jamash: I may need to steal that phrase someday in future. |
| 18:39.24 | Jamash | farmbuyer: np |
| 18:40.46 | Jamash | I'll make MS a deal, I'll stop violating their EULA when they stop violating antitrust law |
| 18:40.53 | mckenziemc | lol |
| 18:41.06 | Fisker | still not the point |
| 18:41.12 | Jamash | OR IS IT |
| 18:41.20 | mckenziemc | stabs Fisker with a pointy stick. |
| 18:42.09 | TC-Work | That cant be good |
| 18:42.20 | Fisker | ow |
| 18:42.45 | *** join/#wowuidev Thunder_Child (~TC@WoWUIDev/PITA/TC) |
| 18:42.56 | Jamash | [14:23:58] <Jamash> this is *after* installing a probably-TOS-violating patch to allow RDP logins *at all* |
| 18:43.00 | TC-Work | wtf Thunder_Child |
| 18:43.03 | End_ | oh look you're back laready |
| 18:43.05 | Kaylin | a pointed stick? oh we want to learn about pointed sticks do we? getting all high and mighty are we? |
| 18:43.09 | End_ | oh look I can't type |
| 18:43.18 | Jamash | shoots Kaylin with a banana |
| 18:44.18 | Thunder_Child | THat was odd |
| 18:44.31 | mckenziemc | it speaks! |
| 18:44.31 | Kaylin | what was? |
| 18:44.40 | TC-Work | my home computer DC'd |
| 18:44.54 | TC-Work | not sure why |
| 18:45.02 | Jamash | anyway vista (all versions) are perfectly capable of accepting RDP connections, it's just restricted to "remote assistance" without performing skullduggery |
| 18:45.17 | TC-Work | ~lart mckenziemc |
| 18:45.17 | purl | eats mckenziemc and falls over dead |
| 18:45.31 | Jamash | oh my god! you killed purl! |
| 18:45.41 | bluspacecow | ~rez purl |
| 18:45.41 | purl | ACTION bluspacecow harnesses the powers of a sandvic- of the light to revive purl |
| 18:45.51 | bluspacecow | I rule |
| 18:46.01 | Jamash | that was oddly recursive |
| 18:46.01 | bluspacecow | I rez people with sammichs! |
| 18:46.16 | Jamash | violates Fisker's EULA. |
| 18:47.16 | TC-Work | well i know something that's getting restarted when i get home |
| 18:47.29 | Jamash | I wonder if I can run stamps.com's windows client under Wine |
| 18:47.54 | Fisker | but Jamash |
| 18:48.03 | Fisker | it's like working for a sewage company for 5 years |
| 18:48.04 | Jamash | butts are for hutts |
| 18:48.08 | Fisker | then complaining about the sewers stinking |
| 18:48.35 | Jamash | I don't work for microsoft *or* my cousin |
| 18:48.45 | Fisker | i didn't say you did |
| 18:49.04 | mckenziemc | Fisker knows all about sewers stinking. |
| 18:49.33 | Fisker | yeah i once performed oral sex on your mom |
| 18:49.40 | Jamash | I didn't say you said I did |
| 18:49.59 | Fisker | i didn't say you said i said you didn't |
| 18:50.07 | Fisker | i think |
| 18:50.10 | Jamash | I'm Batman. |
| 18:50.25 | Fisker | i'm the hero this town needs |
| 18:50.34 | Jamash | but not the one it deserves? |
| 18:50.48 | Jamash | I never managed to work out what that meant |
| 18:50.57 | Fisker | you suck Jamash |
| 18:51.08 | Fisker | Batman is the true hero which is the one they deserve |
| 18:51.38 | Fisker | But twoface(or whatever his name is) is the hero they deserve to prevent him from falling from his stature |
| 18:51.44 | Fisker | need* |
| 18:51.45 | Stanzilla | harvey dent |
| 18:51.46 | Jamash | do they have batman in finland or wherever you're from? |
| 18:51.54 | Jamash | I thought he was american |
| 18:51.56 | Stanzilla | finland has läderlappen |
| 18:52.48 | Jamash | oh wait .dk |
| 18:52.56 | Jamash | die fliedermausmensch? |
| 18:53.15 | Fisker | how did you find out Jamash ? |
| 18:53.30 | Jamash | troll harder, the natives are gaining |
| 18:53.44 | Fisker | soup? |
| 18:54.27 | Jamash | find what out? |
| 18:54.54 | Fisker | .dk |
| 18:54.59 | Stanzilla | it's batman in every country but finland |
| 18:55.04 | Jamash | steve ballmer, dude |
| 18:55.31 | Fisker | you must be some kind of super hacker |
| 18:56.16 | Jamash | is too lazy to roll his own eyes so rolls Fisker's |
| 18:56.46 | Fisker | next task is to find out where i live and murder me |
| 18:57.11 | mckenziemc | murders Fisker through IRC. |
| 18:57.30 | Fisker | you can't |
| 18:57.33 | Fisker | i got a firewall |
| 18:57.36 | mckenziemc | i did |
| 18:57.37 | Jamash | I won't kill you because you're just too much fun. I think you and I are destined to do this forever. |
| 18:58.18 | Fisker | at first i was very happy Jamash |
| 18:58.27 | mckenziemc | then he died |
| 18:58.28 | Fisker | then i figured out it was a quote from batman |
| 18:58.31 | Fisker | so now i'm not so sure |
| 18:58.43 | Jamash | life's hard |
| 19:00.14 | Jamash | I was actually typing out something like "I can't kill you, then who would I have these little tête-à-têtes with?" but I remembered the quote and figured that would be funnier |
| 19:00.41 | *** join/#wowuidev Kodiack (~Colton@96-42-240-206.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com) |
| 19:01.32 | Jamash | I think the stamps.com installer died |
| 19:01.36 | Jamash | it's just sitting there |
| 19:02.25 | Jamash | I wish some government would just demand the windows API source code |
| 19:02.38 | Jamash | and release it into the public domain |
| 19:05.27 | *** join/#wowuidev Cairenn (~Owner@MMOI/Administratrix/Cairenn) |
| 19:05.27 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Cairenn] by ChanServ |
| 19:05.38 | mckenziemc | hey Cairenn |
| 19:09.18 | F16Gaming | !api Set.*Note |
| 19:09.19 | lua_bot | Found 4 possible results for 'Set.*Note': BNSetFriendNote, GuildRosterSetOfficerNote, SetFriendNotes, GuildRosterSetPublicNote |
| 19:11.18 | Stanzilla | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0&feature=youtu.be |
| 19:11.24 | *** join/#wowuidev ShadniX (shadow1st@b045.apm.etc.tu-bs.de) |
| 19:12.08 | haste | sadly the only decent song on the CD D: |
| 19:12.26 | Stanzilla | haste: please tell me you don't own it lol |
| 19:12.39 | Cairenn | hi |
| 19:12.48 | haste | I don't, but I do have stuff equally bad Stanzilla :P |
| 19:13.00 | Kaylin | those shorts ... |
| 19:13.01 | Stanzilla | omg |
| 19:13.54 | mikma | http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/balls_of_steel.jpg :D |
| 19:14.18 | Kaylin | this video just got worse around 1:30 |
| 19:14.42 | Arrowmaster | what the fuck am i watching |
| 19:14.55 | haste | PSY |
| 19:15.01 | Kaylin | duck |
| 19:15.20 | mckenziemc | hockey |
| 19:15.22 | mikma | kaylin: you mean awesome |
| 19:15.30 | haste | it is :D |
| 19:15.43 | Stanzilla | GANGNAM STYLE |
| 19:15.53 | Jamash | what does GANGNAM mean |
| 19:16.28 | Fisker | nothing |
| 19:16.33 | Fisker | it's a district in seoul |
| 19:17.47 | haste | Stanzilla: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzC4hFK5P3g needs more ponponpon |
| 19:18.10 | Stanzilla | haste: gee gee gee |
| 19:18.15 | haste | oh! oh! oh! |
| 19:18.32 | Stanzilla | baby baby |
| 19:18.33 | mckenziemc | wat |
| 19:18.44 | Jamash | I think I saw the guy with the giant glasses on my little pony |
| 19:18.45 | Fisker | hey sexy haste |
| 19:18.52 | haste | hey Fisker |
| 19:19.16 | Fisker | :'( |
| 19:20.11 | Kaylin | I've seen that video before @ ponponpon, it's pretty weird. |
| 19:20.34 | Fisker | man the new mail notification in windows 8 is creepy |
| 19:20.52 | haste | all her videos are Kaylin :P |
| 19:21.36 | Jamash | s/the new mail notification in // |
| 19:23.04 | Fisker | hey Jamash |
| 19:23.11 | Fisker | Windows 8 comes with less license nonsense than ever |
| 19:23.18 | Jamash | how much less is less |
| 19:23.38 | Fisker | less than xp more than dos? |
| 19:23.38 | mckenziemc | more than none |
| 19:23.58 | Jamash | also did they do that by adding more features to the cheaper versions or taking away features from all but the most expensive version? |
| 19:25.19 | Fisker | they basically took out ultimate |
| 19:25.35 | Fisker | and no more basic, starter, etc. shit |
| 19:25.38 | nevcairiel | "Windows 8" basically equals what used to be "Home Premium" or what it was called, and "Windows 8 Pro" is the new ultimate or whatever |
| 19:27.09 | mikma | that's good |
| 19:27.19 | mikma | all the 2305 different versions suck |
| 19:27.41 | Arrowmaster | i dont understand how this can be considered a song http://youtu.be/UoK8DaJRDaM |
| 19:28.18 | Jamash | I'm going to guess that the home version still lacks important stuff that is useful for home users |
| 19:28.20 | nevcairiel | The biggest difference between "normal" and "pro" are really only network and business features, like "normal" cannot be a remote desktop server (but client), and you don't get Hyper-V |
| 19:28.28 | Jamash | so, yes |
| 19:28.44 | nevcairiel | home users dont need virtualization or usually remote desktop :p |
| 19:29.04 | Jamash | says you |
| 19:29.22 | Arrowmaster | i never found xp home adaquite for any thing |
| 19:29.22 | nevcairiel | all the upgrade offers from win7 (or below) are for a Pro version, though |
| 19:30.21 | Jamash | does the home version have the group policy editor? |
| 19:30.27 | nevcairiel | i can get a upgrade for my new laptop for like $15 |
| 19:30.28 | nevcairiel | no |
| 19:30.30 | Jamash | if not it's worthless |
| 19:30.56 | nevcairiel | what good are group policys on a single user workstation? :P |
| 19:31.12 | nevcairiel | or rather "single user home pc" |
| 19:31.29 | Jamash | because there's a ton of stuff you need it to edit that affects the operation of the computer whether or not it's part of a domain |
| 19:33.10 | Jamash | only some of which is available via manually editing the registry |
| 19:34.26 | nevcairiel | Anyhow, like i said earlier, anyone running XP or newer can upgrade to win8pro for $40 |
| 19:35.01 | nevcairiel | not sure full retail prices have been released for the two editions |
| 19:35.43 | *** join/#wowuidev Gragagrogog (~blindpred@89.177.116.251) |
| 19:36.13 | TC-Work | have they still not released the upgrade to 'other than pro editiions' prices yet? |
| 19:36.37 | nevcairiel | i imagine they plan the "non pro" edition mostly for OEM usage |
| 19:37.06 | *** join/#wowuidev rtharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht) |
| 19:37.24 | nevcairiel | $40 is pretty cheap for a new OS, so why bother with anything but pro |
| 19:37.39 | TC-Work | because you maybe want more? |
| 19:37.45 | nevcairiel | there isnt more |
| 19:38.24 | TC-Work | win 8 ent |
| 19:38.25 | nevcairiel | technically there is 4 versions. One of those being Enterprise, which you dont get outside of volume contracts, and one being Windows RT, the ARM tablet edition. Other then that, there is "Windows 8" and "Windows 8 Pro" |
| 19:38.56 | nevcairiel | They will never offer upgrades to enterprise for retail customers =p |
| 19:39.20 | TC-Work | which is not a good thing |
| 19:39.30 | TC-Work | devs will possibly need it |
| 19:39.43 | nevcairiel | for what feature exactly? |
| 19:40.04 | TC-Work | "Metro-style app deployment (of internal applications)" possibly |
| 19:40.09 | *** join/#wowuidev Esamynn|Away (~chatzilla@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Esamynn) |
| 19:40.09 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Esamynn|Away] by ChanServ |
| 19:40.29 | nevcairiel | sounds more like a thing for companys to deploy their apps on your workstation |
| 19:40.46 | TC-Work | right, and if they contract out to a 3rd party to have i built? |
| 19:40.50 | TC-Work | it* |
| 19:41.00 | Jamash | the idea that any given PC will only be used for "home stuff" or "work stuff" is hopelessly obsolete |
| 19:41.38 | TC-Work | Also DirectAccess would be nice as well |
| 19:41.43 | nevcairiel | All features in the enterprise version are quite obviously related to running in a managed enterprise environment, i wouldnt miss any of those |
| 19:41.50 | TC-Work | I VPN into work from home all the time anyway |
| 19:41.55 | TC-Work | actually, it's more like constant |
| 19:42.03 | Jamash | All of them? |
| 19:42.06 | Jamash | every single one? |
| 19:42.13 | nevcairiel | Maybe work should provide you with a license then? :P |
| 19:42.37 | TC-Work | Right, like thats going to happen. |
| 19:42.46 | nevcairiel | Jamash: all features exclusively in that version, of course |
| 19:43.00 | Corrodias2 | your employer being stingy is your own problem, i guess |
| 19:43.04 | nevcairiel | TC-Work: but they do offer the end-point for DirectAccess, but no clients for you? :p |
| 19:43.06 | Jamash | "Windows To Go" is exclusive to Enterprise. That would be useful to anyone. |
| 19:43.34 | Amarande | Jamash: Got a few thousand bucks? :D |
| 19:43.36 | Amarande | heh |
| 19:43.38 | Jamash | DirectAccess, ass TC-Work says, is useful to anyone |
| 19:43.43 | Jamash | s/ass/as/ |
| 19:43.55 | Corrodias2 | i guess we'd better pay up, then |
| 19:44.04 | nevcairiel | Jamash: because everyone runs a Windows 2008/2012 server at home! |
| 19:44.06 | Jamash | BranchCache could be useful in a home environment with multiple PCs |
| 19:44.19 | TC-Work | The RemoteFX is nifty as well |
| 19:44.21 | Jamash | nevcairiel: if it was affordable, more people would |
| 19:44.26 | TC-Work | streaming games from work gogogo |
| 19:44.41 | Jamash | just because people are priced out of an option doesn't mean they wouldn't find it useful |
| 19:44.59 | Jamash | "Microsoft should eliminate Windows 8, offer Windows 8 Pro as the consumer version, and make Windows 8 Enterprise the default for businesses." |
| 19:45.05 | TC-Work | I understand if they make it cost more, i just dont think it should be exclusive |
| 19:45.33 | nevcairiel | any business that is worth calling a business will have Enterprise anyway, that statement doesnt make any sense :p |
| 19:45.37 | Jamash | I go further and say that they should eliminate base and pro and only have the version with all the features |
| 19:45.58 | nevcairiel | People playing for features they never use was never a popular choice |
| 19:46.00 | Jamash | which can be turned off by default for home user installations, but turned back on if the user desires |
| 19:46.15 | Jamash | nevcairiel: paying for features and not getting them isn't popular either |
| 19:46.29 | nevcairiel | but you dont |
| 19:46.39 | Jamash | says you |
| 19:46.45 | TC-Work | Well, we dont know what the cost will be for Ent yet |
| 19:46.58 | Kaylin | few home users will configure policy or services to disable features they don't use, even if they know how. |
| 19:47.10 | Jamash | Tell me why I can RDP into a Vista Home Premium box but only using "remote assistance" |
| 19:47.32 | Jamash | there's a fully functioning RDP server that is selectively crippled |
| 19:47.38 | nevcairiel | because you didnt pay for the pro version which has full RDP? |
| 19:47.52 | nevcairiel | see, you didnt pay for full RDP, you paid for home premium |
| 19:47.56 | Amarande | nev: so, any business that is worth calling a business is the typical "corporation with at least double or triple digits employees" model? |
| 19:47.59 | Jamash | and does it cost MS more to uncripple the RDP server? |
| 19:48.15 | Amarande | I'd imagine quite a large percentage of small businesses in this country actually don't have the capital to afford Enterprise. |
| 19:48.28 | nevcairiel | technically, yes, because it could get some people to buy home premium instead of pro |
| 19:48.31 | Amarande | Remember that most attempted business ventures *don't* make profit. |
| 19:48.45 | Corrodias2 | Jamash: it costs them sales |
| 19:49.12 | Corrodias2 | presumably, some people won't buy the more expensive version no matter what, because they think they can't afford it. so there has to be a lower-priced version to capture those customers |
| 19:49.29 | Corrodias2 | some people are willing to pay more, though, so you have to give them a reason to |
| 19:49.48 | Jamash | let's say that ford sold two cars, one with 8 cylinders, and one with 8 cylinders but two of them disabled |
| 19:50.00 | Jamash | it costs them the same amount to manufacture both cars |
| 19:50.05 | nevcairiel | heck CPU vendors have been doing that for years :p |
| 19:50.11 | Jamash | the 8-2 version costs less |
| 19:50.31 | Jamash | which would you do, buy the more expensive version, or buy the less expensive version and un-disable the 2 cylinders? |
| 19:50.58 | nevcairiel | for your comparison to be fair, they would have to be un-undisable-able! |
| 19:51.05 | Jamash | nope |
| 19:51.13 | Jamash | I un-disabled the RDP server in vista home premium |
| 19:51.53 | nevcairiel | the comparison still lacks because the RDP server is such a critical part of your system :p |
| 19:52.05 | Corrodias2 | Jamash: and yet, you magically make more money by selling some crippled ones |
| 19:52.05 | Jamash | is or isn't? |
| 19:52.26 | Jamash | Corrodias2: yes, they do, but they shouldn't |
| 19:52.31 | Jamash | just because something is legal doesn't mean it's ethical |
| 19:52.34 | Corrodias2 | if you want to usurp capitalism, let's do it |
| 19:52.41 | Corrodias2 | i don't like it that much either |
| 19:52.53 | Amarande | Jamash: except for the DMCA and friends, though :| |
| 19:53.11 | Jamash | Amarande: just because something is illegal, doesn't mean it's unethical :) |
| 19:53.16 | Amarande | It'd be legal to get out your socket set and un-disable the two cylinders, because the two cylinders are not copyrighted data :) |
| 19:53.24 | Jamash | the DMCA is a violation of the first amendment anyway |
| 19:53.25 | Amarande | Whereas un-disabling Windows features is "defeating an access measure" |
| 19:53.31 | nevcairiel | If you sell a car for cheaper, and make more money with it, how is that unethical? :D |
| 19:53.38 | nevcairiel | I mean, customers get cheaper cards, you make more money |
| 19:53.39 | Amarande | And to tell the truth, there's the part of me that thinks we should be lucky VPNs still even exist at all now |
| 19:53.39 | nevcairiel | win-win |
| 19:53.42 | nevcairiel | cars* |
| 19:54.01 | Jamash | nevcairiel: if that's your definition of a win-win, nothing |
| 19:54.12 | Jamash | I define that as a win-lose |
| 19:54.28 | Amarande | It would have been only just like a major media network like NBC to try to appeal to Washington to have VPNs mostly banned as a "circumvention measure", due to their mass use to tunnel to Britain to get the better BBC Olympics broadcasts |
| 19:54.38 | nevcairiel | Your definition is weird then |
| 19:54.48 | Jamash | the customers who are sold products that are intentionally defective is not a win for them |
| 19:54.52 | Amarande | because, after all, figuring your country by IP could be construed as an "effective access control measure" |
| 19:55.04 | nevcairiel | Maybe i dont need 8 cylinders, i just want a car that works and drives me to work |
| 19:55.13 | Amarande | and therefore, any kind of international VPN in particular defeats that measure. We're lucky NBC hasn't tried to have VPNs blocked at the border for that. :| |
| 19:55.14 | foxlit | Jamash: the customers are given a choice between functionality and cost. That's a win for them. |
| 19:55.18 | Jamash | a win-win would be selling the product at the lower price with full features, making more money by selling more products |
| 19:55.38 | nevcairiel | You fail to grasp how our economy works |
| 19:55.42 | Jamash | the only market in which breaking your products before selling them is a monopoly market |
| 19:55.47 | Jamash | *makes sense |
| 19:55.59 | Jamash | where you *can't* expand your business by competing on price |
| 19:56.12 | Jamash | or features |
| 19:56.25 | Jamash | MS has a monopoly, so of course it makes sense to them |
| 19:56.36 | Jamash | it's still unethical |
| 19:56.55 | Amarande | One also gets the impression that the prevailing idea (at least that public policy makers seem to be wanting to believe in) is that monopolies are the only really optimal markets, especially in digital markets. :| |
| 19:57.04 | nevcairiel | Maybe they can only sell the cheapers cars for cheaper because the more expensive model already pays for the development of the car itself and building of the production facilities |
| 19:57.12 | Amarande | I wonder if there's any truth to that, though :| |
| 19:57.25 | nevcairiel | Who is to say they can sell all cars for cheap? |
| 19:57.27 | Amarande | After all. In a monopoly market, the downside is that you can't expand your business by competing on price |
| 19:57.30 | foxlit | Maybe expensive models need to be more expensive to support development of their features |
| 19:57.38 | Amarande | OTOH: In a non-monopoly market, you can compete on price. The downside though, is that you MUST compete on price ... |
| 19:57.39 | Jamash | nevcairiel: Neither the public nor the government has any responsibility to guarantee a corporation a profit |
| 19:57.57 | nevcairiel | But the corporation has, or there wont be any new cars anymore |
| 19:58.07 | Jamash | if selling all the cars at the lower price reduces their profits, tough |
| 19:58.12 | Jamash | that's a false dichotomy |
| 19:58.12 | Amarande | nev: well, at least till we can download a car and print it on our 3D printer :) |
| 19:58.31 | Corrodias2 | Jamash: then they'll only sell at a higher price. |
| 19:58.34 | Amarande | though I get the feeling enough 3D printer "ink" to do that might cost more than, well, a car. heh |
| 19:58.45 | Corrodias2 | then you'll wind up paying more. good job. |
| 19:58.48 | Jamash | of the sort presented only by those attempting to justify monopolistic practices |
| 19:59.15 | Corrodias2 | justify as in "this is morally acceptable"? |
| 19:59.20 | Corrodias2 | who cares about that! |
| 19:59.21 | Amarande | Jamash: well, digital goods likely have an issue specific to them, as well |
| 19:59.38 | Jamash | Amarande: Yeah I'm surprised nobody has called me on that yet :P |
| 19:59.41 | Amarande | namely, the fact that digital goods (especially now that DD is beginning to mainly supplant disc-based software) are inherently non-rival goods |
| 19:59.53 | Amarande | Not only are they non-rival goods, but they also have an extremely front-loaded cost model |
| 20:00.18 | Jamash | yup |
| 20:00.59 | Amarande | I can see the trouble with competition here: a limited number of developers have to invest heavily in the development phase, but then once release happens, there's no or nearly no time to make the money back before competition drives the price to its inherent scarcity value (which is zero) |
| 20:01.07 | Amarande | Before you can sell enough copies, your software is worth about as much as Dense Stone. :) |
| 20:01.14 | nevcairiel | Going back to the real topic, MS gives everyone a very cheap upgrade, including people that bought the last MS product over 12 years ago, thats hardly an unethical standpoint there (and even an upgrade to the "expensive" version, even if you previously had the cheap one) |
| 20:01.39 | Amarande | nev: will this upgrade actually be easy to clean install, unlike many other previous Windows upgrades? |
| 20:02.11 | Amarande | In so many other previous Windows versions, you practically got goaded to buy the full version simply because otherwise, every time you had to install, you had to install all the versions in succession to prove your eligibility |
| 20:02.29 | Corrodias2 | as i recall, there are ways to trick it, but HAVING to trick it is ridiculous |
| 20:02.33 | Amarande | I think there may have been one or two where you couldn't do a clean install with the upgrade version at all, but I'm not sure |
| 20:02.39 | Jamash | I've never heard anyone claim that MS doesn't have enough money to develop new versions of windows |
| 20:03.03 | Jamash | Amarande: I remember just putting the old version CD in the drive to "verify" |
| 20:03.19 | Amarande | Jamash: heh, from what I've been reading about tablets and smartphones, it might actually be more about war funds than about developing Windows itself :| |
| 20:03.31 | Jamash | exactly |
| 20:03.31 | Corrodias2 | i haven't installed an upgrade version of 7, but i recall reading that it's a bit of a bitch |
| 20:03.32 | Amarande | Apparently, Apple is trying its damnedest to find patent infringements in its competitors sufficient to kill them |
| 20:03.39 | nevcairiel | Just providing the install media was enough for Win7Upgrade at least, it was a bit more stupid with XP and sorts |
| 20:03.40 | Jamash | MS has always made monopoly profits on windows and office |
| 20:03.45 | Jamash | http://m.vanityfair.com/business/2012/08/microsoft-lost-mojo-steve-ballmer |
| 20:04.05 | Corrodias2 | ah |
| 20:04.10 | Jamash | steve ballmer is the single greatest threat to microsoft's continued profitability |
| 20:04.26 | cbreak | there's an other |
| 20:04.30 | nevcairiel | that article has an unreadable layout |
| 20:04.30 | cbreak | Windows 8 |
| 20:04.35 | Amarande | There's also thoughts that the death of Steve Jobs is likely to move Obama towards favouring a ruling for Apple, whereas before he was thought to favour Google |
| 20:04.40 | Jamash | that's the mobile version |
| 20:04.59 | cbreak | what the hell has obama to do with ruling? |
| 20:05.03 | cbreak | isn't he executive? |
| 20:05.09 | Jamash | substitute www for m to get the regular version |
| 20:05.40 | Amarande | cbreak: apparently, if the ITC rules against HTC and Google, Obama can choose to disregard the ruling at his discretion, as the chief executive of the USA |
| 20:06.00 | Amarande | which means the future of many Android devices is thought to actually rest on whether Obama decides he likes Apple or Google more |
| 20:06.07 | Jamash | "today the iPhone brings in more revenue than the entirety of Microsoft" |
| 20:06.10 | foxlit | http://blogs.nasa.gov/cm/blog/nasadotgov/posts/post_1306860816073.html << the comments are mostly depressing. |
| 20:06.27 | cbreak | Amarande: I think android can adapt, no matter what anyone decides |
| 20:06.38 | Jamash | gogo firefox os? |
| 20:06.40 | Amarande | Otherwise, for starters, the US may face an embargo on importing HTC Android devices. |
| 20:07.37 | Jamash | why does serving content from nasa.gov instead of www.nasa.gov require more servers? |
| 20:07.42 | Amarande | It makes one wonder if Romney is a better bet. Ever since the PIPA arguments, there's been a lot to suggest that the GOP is a lot more in favour of technological flourishment. |
| 20:07.59 | Amarande | Whereas the Democratic Party seems to be leaning rather strongly towards strong IPR even at the expense of technological flourishment. |
| 20:08.14 | nevcairiel | why do people even bother thinking about that? just write the damn www :P |
| 20:09.09 | Amarande | Apart from Lamar Smith (who sponsored SOPA), it seems that largely the Republicans ditched SOPA/PIPA like a hot potato once the protests started rolling in, while the Democrats appeared to be a lot more sticking to their guns on it. :| |
| 20:09.17 | foxlit | Jamash: www.nasa.gov is not nasa.gov |
| 20:09.31 | foxlit | there are presumably legacy applications that connect to nasa.gov over different protocols than HTTP. |
| 20:09.55 | foxlit | You either need to update those applications, or you need more server boxes to do the forwarding correctly. |
| 20:09.56 | Amarande | This should show you how much the Democratic Party seems to really care about the progress of technology. (Given the state I'm from, I probably can be a tad more indignant about this than most. :P) |
| 20:10.29 | cbreak | they both seem like idiots |
| 20:10.31 | Jamash | RIAA & MPAA members give a lot of money to dems |
| 20:10.32 | cbreak | vote for someone else. |
| 20:10.38 | Jamash | you mean mickey mouse? |
| 20:10.41 | cbreak | no |
| 20:10.48 | cbreak | disney is in bed with big holywood |
| 20:11.17 | Jamash | that's the joke |
| 20:11.30 | Jamash | if you don't like the candidates you write in "mickey mouse" |
| 20:11.42 | Amarande | (FWIW: I'm from Connecticut, which insists on voting - not with MY agreement mind you - on such lovely examples of humanity as Dodd, Lieberman, and Blumenthal. :P) |
| 20:11.43 | Jamash | but in this case... |
| 20:12.14 | cbreak | http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/08/how-youtube-lets-content-companies-claim-nasa-mars-videos/, this is why google is a bunch of scumbags. |
| 20:12.59 | Jamash | claiming an organization is all good or all bad is a common mistake |
| 20:13.09 | Jamash | google does good things and bad things |
| 20:13.14 | Jamash | I wouldn't call them "scumbags" |
| 20:13.29 | cbreak | you can't balance out evil things by doing good things. |
| 20:13.46 | Corrodias2 | sure you can. that's why it's balance. |
| 20:14.04 | Jamash | so you're saying that only bad things matter? |
| 20:14.13 | Jamash | so the best company is one that doesn't do anything, good or bad? |
| 20:14.22 | cbreak | when determining wether you did bad things: yes. |
| 20:14.22 | durcyn | no, he's saying pol pot couldn't hug enough kittens to compensate |
| 20:14.41 | Dagmar | They're hard to hug after the heads are all twisted off. |
| 20:14.45 | Jamash | cbreak, durcyn: cool story bro |
| 20:14.50 | Jamash | *bros |
| 20:14.54 | cbreak | if you steal something, then you're a thief, independent of other actions. |
| 20:14.55 | Jamash | *stories |
| 20:15.05 | Jamash | so everyone's a thief |
| 20:15.07 | Dagmar | cbreak: Don't blame YouTube because lawyers never stop running their goddamn mouths |
| 20:15.10 | cbreak | only if they steal |
| 20:15.22 | cbreak | Dagmar: there are no lawyers involved |
| 20:15.23 | foxlit | thief refers to a specific act, however |
| 20:15.23 | Jamash | have you ever stolen anything ever, even by accident? |
| 20:15.32 | cbreak | the takedown things are without recourse apparently |
| 20:15.34 | foxlit | "scumbags" are an overall judgement |
| 20:15.37 | Cairenn | I once stole a chocolate bar. *guilty look* |
| 20:15.42 | Amarande | durcyn: that's probably not too inaccurate, after a fashion. if by "hug enough kittens" you mean "pay people enough money to take his side" |
| 20:15.44 | Dagmar | If you see some company NOT saying "Oh crap... That isn't ours... UNFLAGGING NOW" then let me know |
| 20:15.49 | Jamash | for example, have you ever eaten a single food item in a grocery store without paying for it, like one jelly bean? |
| 20:15.53 | Amarande | one of Pol Pot's more insane directives was apparently to abolish money altogether |
| 20:16.08 | Dagmar | Otherwise it's just a techcnial problem caused by complying with the DMCA in a manner that keeps the lawyers somewhat at bay |
| 20:16.11 | Amarande | his regime self-destructed not too long after, his last words as ruler probably being "oh crap, I forgot I need money to pay the army to keep doing things for me" |
| 20:16.13 | foxlit | Dagmar: ars technica article has plenty of examples. |
| 20:16.20 | Jamash | if that brands one a thief for the rest of one's life, in your value system, cbreak, perhaps you should consider reexamining your value system |
| 20:16.31 | cbreak | why? |
| 20:16.42 | cbreak | it's not like properties are mutually exclusive |
| 20:16.51 | Dagmar | Examples of what? Companies seeing that they were mistakenly attributed on a video and NOT immediately releasing it? |
| 20:16.57 | foxlit | yes. |
| 20:17.01 | Corrodias2 | i recall a few, sure |
| 20:17.07 | Dagmar | Hmm... let's see then |
| 20:17.16 | Corrodias2 | for one thing, flagging it without actually -checking- first counts, doesn't it? |
| 20:17.27 | cbreak | in the ars technica article, they mention companies just releasing the block, and then reinstating it again, without possibility of recurse |
| 20:17.28 | foxlit | well, at least companies rejecting the disputes on their own claims, effectively asserting that they do own the nasa video. |
| 20:17.33 | Jamash | cbreak: if you don't mind words ceasing to have meaning I guess there's no problem |
| 20:17.36 | Dagmar | ...because with statutory damages for bad faith claims, NASA could easily fund their next mission this way |
| 20:17.51 | foxlit | except contentID is not DMCA |
| 20:18.04 | Corrodias2 | indeed, it's not a DMCA notice. it's just a backdoor. |
| 20:18.08 | Amarande | yeah, but fraud is fraud any way you slice it |
| 20:18.24 | Corrodias2 | it's not fraud; it's just one company removing user-posted content at the request of another |
| 20:18.28 | Corrodias2 | nobody's making money off of it happening |
| 20:18.37 | Amarande | at the fraudulent request of another, though, no? |
| 20:18.39 | cbreak | they don't remove it |
| 20:18.41 | cbreak | they post adds on it |
| 20:18.43 | foxlit | well, technically, they are making money off it happening |
| 20:18.52 | cbreak | someone worked to create media |
| 20:19.04 | cbreak | and then a big company comes, puts adds on top, and says "I did this" |
| 20:19.06 | Jamash | Corrodias2: "But more often, the rightsholder will simply begin running ads against the content and pocketing the free cash." |
| 20:19.11 | Dagmar | It actually *is* fraud.\ |
| 20:19.27 | Dagmar | If they're claming rights to it that don't exist, that's a material misrepresntation of fact |
| 20:19.31 | cbreak | it's maybe copyright violation |
| 20:19.34 | Jamash | in this case "rightsholder" is a misnomer |
| 20:19.45 | *** part/#wowuidev Gragagrogog (~blindpred@89.177.116.251) |
| 20:19.46 | foxlit | I think whether or not it is anything comes down to youtube's agreements with both content uploaders and those companies. |
| 20:19.54 | Dagmar | Stuff _can_ be done about that, regardless of what the guy in the article claims. |
| 20:20.07 | Corrodias2 | suit up the lawyers, eh? |
| 20:20.13 | Dagmar | It's called "Find a sleazy personal injury lawyer and tell him he can sue for whatever he likes for a percentage" |
| 20:20.22 | durcyn | the penalty for making false DMCA takedown requests is what, fifty bucks? |
| 20:20.28 | Dagmar | More |
| 20:20.30 | cbreak | I've never used youtube as uploader, so I don't know that side, but what can you do? |
| 20:20.39 | Jamash | I'd be all for breaking up google if we can break up all the other monopolies at the same time |
| 20:20.40 | foxlit | again, this is not a DMCA takedown request. |
| 20:20.59 | Amarande | durcyn: I'd imagine if there's actual damages, then damages. And wouldn't a fraudulent request be triple damages? (IANAL, of course) |
| 20:21.01 | cbreak | you could maybe delete the movie and upload it again |
| 20:21.15 | Jamash | and then get flagged as a repeat offender |
| 20:21.23 | Dagmar | No, it's not, but it's still material misrepresentation of fact resulting in loss of revenue and is therefore legally actionable |
| 20:21.26 | cbreak | does that come with disadvantages? |
| 20:21.34 | Jamash | you can have your account permanently closed |
| 20:21.41 | Amarande | cbreak: I presume eventually they stop letting you upload content to youtube |
| 20:21.58 | cbreak | ... with the same account... :) |
| 20:22.04 | Jamash | worse, they delete everything you ever uploaded |
| 20:22.20 | Jamash | and then if you create a new account and reupload your videos, they'll close it again |
| 20:22.29 | Dagmar | http://targetlaw.com/consequences-of-filing-a-false-dmca-takedown-request |
| 20:22.39 | Jamash | it's still not a DMCA issue |
| 20:22.42 | Jamash | it's a ContentID issue |
| 20:22.49 | foxlit | the monetization stuff is presumably also not open to general accounts, so it might be a while before your new clone can get any money |
| 20:22.58 | Dagmar | It doesn't even matter whether it's a DMCA takedown or not |
| 20:22.58 | cbreak | Dagmar: somehow I expected nothing but a blank page on that URL |
| 20:23.17 | Amarande | I suppose the real question is this: Have we perhaps actually backed ourselves into such an economic and fiscal corner that we NEED idiotic ways of maximising monetisation of every resource like this for the country to survive? :| |
| 20:23.31 | Dagmar | Once the issue of ContentID is addressed, if the "rights holder" who isn't one is still claiming rights that they don't have, there's nothing stopping you from lawyering up |
| 20:23.56 | Dagmar | You can even take them to small claims where if you're not a dick about it and speak clearly, you can generally get a judge to assign summary judgement in your favor |
| 20:24.01 | Amarande | And therefore, anyone trying to actually put through a real objection to this, assuming they actually got enough members of the legislature to agree, would just provoke the whole country to collapse in a surprisingly short time from want of money and resultant hyperinflation? |
| 20:24.09 | Dagmar | It's just easier if you have a lawyer on tap, just like the people who sue spammers |
| 20:24.17 | cbreak | Amarande: define country. People? Governmental Structure? |
| 20:24.26 | Jamash | Amarande: No. |
| 20:24.31 | cbreak | for a country to physically survive, you need farmers. |
| 20:24.37 | cbreak | and other food producers. |
| 20:24.38 | Jamash | we'd be better off without the copyright mafia |
| 20:24.39 | Dagmar | Amarande: We don't "need" it. Corporations are just fuckin' greedy |
| 20:24.56 | cbreak | certainly no lawyers, managers, CEOs and other pointless energy burners. |
| 20:24.58 | Amarande | Dagmar: basically, the thought being that if those corporations tanked, the resultant loss of GDP would be fatal |
| 20:25.08 | Amarande | at least that's what the government seems to think, heh |
| 20:25.29 | Jamash | Amarande: But you're ignoring the sectors of the economy that produce actual useful activity that are underfunded because of the sectors you're discussing |
| 20:25.41 | Dagmar | Amarande: That's just silly |
| 20:25.47 | Jamash | removing wasteful economic activity can create space for useful activity to flourish |
| 20:25.52 | Cairenn | The sky, it is 'up' |
| 20:25.59 | Dagmar | if they tank they weren't doing anything particularly useful for society anyway |
| 20:26.02 | Jamash | ^ |
| 20:26.29 | Corrodias2 | so, how do vimeo and viddler compare? |
| 20:26.36 | sylvanaar_work | ugh how do you normally pass bash exported variables to sudo'ed commands? sudo -E ? or is there a better way? |
| 20:26.41 | Jamash | remember, the movie and music companies do everything in their power to avoid paying the people who actually make movies and music |
| 20:26.48 | Amarande | indeed. |
| 20:27.01 | Amarande | I have joked sometimes that Nickelback is called that because they probably got about a nickel back for all their efforts :) |
| 20:27.01 | Jamash | without them there'd be more and better movies and music |
| 20:27.09 | Amarande | This may not be too different from the truth for the typical band, heh |
| 20:27.12 | Dagmar | sylvanaar_work: That's pretty much it, yeah. Otherwise just pass the variables in with the command |
| 20:27.13 | *** join/#wowuidev Robsato (~Robsato@541AE7CC.cm-5-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) |
| 20:27.30 | sylvanaar_work | Dagmar: thanks |
| 20:27.50 | cbreak | sylvanaar_work: afaik that's the way |
| 20:28.03 | cbreak | sylvanaar_work: env vars are filtered normally for security reasons |
| 20:28.18 | cbreak | since by influencing them, you can make commands behave differently |
| 20:28.29 | cbreak | which would break the measly bit of sandboxing sudo provides. |
| 20:28.41 | Amarande | sylvanaar_work: yeah, you don't want to let people poison a var that, for instance, becomes a list of files to be deleted by having it be changed to "/*" |
| 20:28.57 | Jamash | or you could do sudo "VAR1=$VAR1" "VAR2=$VAR2" command if you want to control which variables get passed |
| 20:30.06 | End_ | oh I didn't know sudo just accepted environment variables |
| 20:30.09 | Jamash | that's much safer |
| 20:30.09 | Amarande | The other thing I've pondered about 1%-vs-99% type economic things: Is it actually possible to liberate most of the wealth of the 1% even if everyone was willing and able to do it? |
| 20:30.16 | Jamash | Amarande: yes |
| 20:30.18 | End_ | I've been doing sudo env VAR=blah command |
| 20:30.19 | Stanzilla | ~amarande Jamash |
| 20:30.19 | purl | ACTION wraps Jamash in a straitjacket and locks them in a room with Amarande. |
| 20:30.25 | Jamash | oh noooooooooooooooooooo |
| 20:30.28 | *** join/#wowuidev wereHamster (~tomc@unaffiliated/werehamster) |
| 20:30.38 | Jamash | it wouldn't even be that hard |
| 20:30.43 | Jamash | if there was political will |
| 20:30.52 | Amarande | Or is much of the "wealth" the 1% have actually inherently tied to powers that many of the richest have (in other words, no matter how much you try to distribute a given piece of wealth, the person who controls X is always going to be worth at least $Y no matter how you try to equalise it) |
| 20:31.01 | Jamash | it takes enormous effort to maintain the system that funnels all the wealth to the top |
| 20:31.09 | Arrowmaster | i propose roman style of government funding |
| 20:31.17 | Amarande | The one thing that does occur to me is how much of the top people's wealth is in the form of securities and such. |
| 20:31.25 | Dagmar | End's method is far safer than -E |
| 20:31.27 | Amarande | I'm not sure how you'd go about liberating that wealth in any way that would be useful on the whole. |
| 20:31.28 | Arrowmaster | if anybody understands what im talking about |
| 20:31.43 | Amarande | The problem with securities is they 1) have to be sold to liberate their value, and 2) have market-fluid values |
| 20:31.48 | Dagmar | Well, Amarande, the funny thing is, they don't have wealth to extract |
| 20:31.52 | Amarande | Which means, if you have say 20,000,000 shares of something and it's worth $20 |
| 20:31.52 | Jamash | if that system was dismantled (eliminate subsidies and tax breaks, institute proper controls on derivatives, etc) then those people would simply get less money as time goes on |
| 20:32.17 | Dagmar | It's like this. We have $20. You take $10 of it, I take $10 of it, and we put it in our coffee jars. |
| 20:32.19 | Jamash | the problem is that they have all that money to use to try to prop up the system |
| 20:32.28 | Dagmar | Tomorrow, you open your coffee jar and declare your $10 is now a $20. |
| 20:32.34 | Amarande | It's worth $400,000,000 on paper, indeed. |
| 20:32.48 | cbreak | all you need is adding resistance to the system |
| 20:32.50 | Dagmar | "Wealth" has been "created" because there's a total of $30 in the system., except one of us is a fuckin liar |
| 20:33.03 | Amarande | However, can you ever actually put that $400,000,000 back into the economy as such? |
| 20:33.16 | Jamash | what you're talking about is "market cap" which is a very abstract concept |
| 20:33.30 | cbreak | Amarande: have you heard of the knight group exploit last week? |
| 20:33.31 | Amarande | Problem: Before you even get halfway through selling it so you have the cash to put back *into* the economy, you'll reach the point where you're lucky if each of those shares is worth 20 *cents* anymore, due to the fact that the more you sell, the less it becomes worth. |
| 20:33.33 | Dagmar | Then you take that extra $10 that doesn't exist, invest it, realize the profits, and say you have $15 and lo and behld you now have a $10 and a $5 |
| 20:33.39 | Amarande | cbreak: nope |
| 20:33.43 | Dagmar | Fractional banking |
| 20:33.56 | Amarande | But basically, yeah, that seems to be one of the more difficult organic things to redistributing the wealth |
| 20:33.59 | Jamash | the value is, notionally, what the market values the company's future profit-making capacity, plus current assets, minus current debts, plus "goodwill" and shit |
| 20:34.09 | cbreak | Amarande: http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/08/companys-software-trading-glitch-cost-it-10-million-per-minute/ |
| 20:34.17 | Dagmar | You know what would be awesome? If corporations paid sales tax |
| 20:34.20 | Amarande | the fact that so much of it is tied up in forms that have to be sold to actually be turned into money, and that will lose most of its value if you try to sell it en masse in order to do so. |
| 20:34.24 | Dagmar | ...particularly on stock trades. |
| 20:34.41 | cbreak | Dagmar: they were talking about that in switzerland and france |
| 20:34.44 | Amarande | Dagmar: they've apparently tried to do that on foreign exchange trades in some markets, not entirely sure how well it's worked |
| 20:34.49 | cbreak | a capital gains tax |
| 20:34.57 | Dagmar | It would keep the speculative traders in check for sure |
| 20:34.59 | Jamash | I keep thinking of "high-frequency trading" as "fast-flux trading" |
| 20:35.09 | Amarande | Granted, foreign exchange trading is kind of scummy on a moral basis, anyway. |
| 20:35.09 | Dagmar | Jamash: I think of it as "netsplits" |
| 20:35.10 | cbreak | a bit like a systematic resistance |
| 20:35.19 | Amarande | After all, when you invest in a foreign currency, you're pretty much gambling on your OWN country's economy going south. |
| 20:35.27 | Jamash | put a 1% tax on every stock, bond, and derivative trade |
| 20:35.30 | Dagmar | Enough with keeping quiet about the similarities between the trading network and EFNet in the 90's. |
| 20:35.36 | Dagmar | People should be fucking terrified of that |
| 20:35.47 | cbreak | Amarande: my country buys a ton of euros to prevent our own currency from going sky high |
| 20:35.49 | Jamash | that would eliminate high-frequency trading and a lot of speculation |
| 20:35.57 | cbreak | which would lead to dropping exports and apparently doom |
| 20:36.12 | Dagmar | cbreak: It would only mean doom for hte people who want easy money for doing nothing |
| 20:36.19 | cbreak | no |
| 20:36.19 | Dagmar | They'd have to acutally work for their money |
| 20:36.27 | cbreak | it would mean doom for people trying to export stuff |
| 20:36.42 | Jamash | Dagmar: this is known as "rent-seeking behavior" |
| 20:36.52 | Jamash | meaning you make money without doing anything yourself |
| 20:36.57 | cbreak | if the swiss franc would rise higher, tourism and export would suffer because foreigners could no longer afford the stuff |
| 20:37.04 | Dagmar | I just call it "rich guy douchebaggery" |
| 20:37.52 | Jamash | cbreak: and then the franc would decline and things would balance out |
| 20:37.58 | Jamash | problem? |
| 20:38.01 | cbreak | not really |
| 20:38.02 | Dagmar | A transaction tax woulnd't stop the HFT, it would severely curtail it and make companies freaking do more than try to foretell the next thirty secons |
| 20:38.07 | cbreak | why would it decline? |
| 20:38.14 | Jamash | because the economy would tank |
| 20:38.34 | Dagmar | They tell everyone else "stocks are a long-term investment" when what they really mean is "you should give us your money and don't ask what happened to it until a long time from now" |
| 20:38.35 | Jamash | I'm not saying it's a good idea |
| 20:38.35 | cbreak | I don't think the economy is bound to the currency |
| 20:38.43 | Jamash | you just said it is |
| 20:38.48 | Dagmar | ...while the policies they follow themselves are all "quick-fix" |
| 20:38.50 | TC-Work | if you have no export options it is going to hurt |
| 20:38.51 | Amarande | Dagmar: and let's not forget your typical bank |
| 20:38.55 | Dagmar | One of these things is a lie, always. |
| 20:39.06 | Amarande | The savings account is probably the most successful scam ever invented by man |
| 20:39.21 | Jamash | it's not inherently a scam |
| 20:39.28 | Jamash | lax regulation allows it to be a scam |
| 20:39.36 | Dagmar | Amarande: I dunno about that, but I defintely had a fairly harsh conversation with the BofA manager about that |
| 20:39.49 | Amarande | Jamash: well, basically, you loan your money to the bank for an effective negative interest rate and agree to terms that make it relatively inconvenient to withdraw money as you want it |
| 20:40.05 | Jamash | Amarande: As I say, in practice it often is |
| 20:40.11 | Jamash | but it's not inherently so |
| 20:40.27 | Amarande | In practise it always is. Even during the better economic days. |
| 20:40.28 | Jamash | there are a lot of other very successful scams anyway |
| 20:40.39 | cbreak | like religion... |
| 20:40.41 | Dagmar | I stated in rather loud tones "You mean to tell me that with $40,000 cash in that account you can't figure out how to make a $60 return on investing it? That tells me you're formally admitting you don't know how to manage money at all and I should pull my funds and leave." |
| 20:40.43 | Jamash | like reli... |
| 20:40.45 | Jamash | damn it cbreak |
| 20:40.47 | Amarande | The inherent rub is this: Even back in the days when so-called high yield savings accounts actually yielded a nice looking percentage rate |
| 20:40.48 | cbreak | :P |
| 20:40.55 | Amarande | That percentage rate was never anywhere close to the inflation rate. |
| 20:41.07 | Jamash | Dagmar: That is a correct assessment |
| 20:41.12 | Jamash | you should |
| 20:41.17 | Amarande | Therefore, you're scammed, because you're being told you'll make money by using a savings account, but in fact when you withdraw it later on it buys less than it did when you put it in. |
| 20:41.23 | Dagmar | Jamash: It's why I have two different bank accounts and some gold buried |
| 20:41.30 | Jamash | good idea |
| 20:41.48 | *** part/#wowuidev Sixen (~Sixen@173-25-23-124.client.mchsi.com) |
| 20:41.48 | Jamash | putting all your money in gold is insane, but having a bit doesn't hurt |
| 20:41.52 | Corrodias2 | from what i can tell, over time, inflation in the US averages around 3% |
| 20:41.53 | Dagmar | I am a complete flaming psycho with the invesment people now because of this crap |
| 20:41.57 | Corrodias2 | annually |
| 20:41.59 | Dagmar | Jamash; I bought it at under $800. |
| 20:42.03 | Jamash | Dagmar: bitcoins? |
| 20:42.04 | Amarande | About the only time a savings account is beneficial to the saver is if you're planning on using the money later to buy something you *know* won't increase in price anywhere close to the prevailing inflation rate over time. |
| 20:42.06 | cbreak | Amarande: if you had that money in a bunch of shoes somewhere in the basement, it'd also be influenced by inflation |
| 20:42.21 | Jamash | the question is, is there a gold bubble? |
| 20:42.23 | Amarande | cbreak: except you can take the money out of your shoe whenever you wish :) |
| 20:42.25 | Corrodias2 | Amarande: what do i do with the money to preserve its value? |
| 20:42.28 | Jamash | if not, gold is a great investment |
| 20:42.30 | *** join/#wowuidev Sixen (~Sixen@173-25-23-124.client.mchsi.com) |
| 20:42.31 | Dagmar | Jamash: "Over the long term, these investments always make money." |
| 20:42.32 | cbreak | Jamash: gold bubble? most definitely. |
| 20:42.33 | Jamash | if so, gold is a scam |
| 20:42.48 | Amarande | OTOH, when you put it in a savings account, typically you're put under significant restrictions on when you can take how much money out |
| 20:42.50 | Jamash | Dagmar: In the long term, we are all dead. |
| 20:42.56 | Dagmar | Well... this is no longer true. The "mattress fund" has better performance than IRAs over the last 50 years. |
| 20:42.59 | znf | the fuck is going on here o.O |
| 20:43.09 | Jamash | znf: welcome to #economics |
| 20:43.18 | Jamash | puts on a monocle |
| 20:43.23 | Amarande | Bank accounts almost always have a withdrawal limit, and some types (usually the ones with the "better" interest rates) don't even let you take the money out at all until a fixed agreed period of time has passed (e.g., CDs) |
| 20:43.23 | Corrodias2 | can anybody tell me? how do i have my money keep its value? :( |
| 20:43.24 | Jamash | smokes a cigar |
| 20:43.25 | znf | gets out and reads the sign on the door |
| 20:43.32 | znf | still says #wowuidev |
| 20:43.47 | Amarande | Corrodias: pretty much you have to spend it |
| 20:43.50 | Jamash | Corrodias2: there is no guaranteed method |
| 20:43.50 | TC-Work | we will update it when it's worth updating |
| 20:43.53 | Amarande | which is good for the economy as a whole, anyway :) |
| 20:43.54 | Dagmar | Corrodias2: Convert it into a unit of currency that isn't based bullshit and pixie farts. |
| 20:43.56 | cbreak | Amarande: the accounts I have are either classified as savings account |
| 20:43.58 | Dagmar | Like tiny gold bars.\ |
| 20:44.01 | Jamash | Dagmar: there aren't any |
| 20:44.02 | TC-Work | costs money you know znf |
| 20:44.05 | cbreak | there I have a 3 month cancelation period for all money |
| 20:44.06 | Corrodias2 | but gold fluctuates in value as well |
| 20:44.11 | Jamash | pixies fart gold fyi |
| 20:44.15 | Corrodias2 | it has been going up, but it's not guaranteed to keep doing so |
| 20:44.18 | Dagmar | Gold: Rare, useful, fairly inert when buried. |
| 20:44.22 | cbreak | or some tens of thousand per month instantly |
| 20:44.25 | Amarande | and really, when the economy is in a slump, the populace has a duty to spend its money (granted, the 1% should be spending more of theirs too, but the populace as a whole has such a duty) |
| 20:44.37 | TC-Work | i bet Shirik would like this conversation |
| 20:44.40 | Amarande | if the economy is in a slump and people react by saving their money in case they don't have any next week, then you get economic nosedives. |
| 20:44.44 | cbreak | or a normal bank account, where I can take money out pretty much as I want |
| 20:44.48 | Jamash | Dagmar: If everyone thinks that gold is the best hedge against inflation, then everyone buys gold in proportion to how well the economy is doing |
| 20:44.51 | cbreak | but without much of any interest rate |
| 20:44.55 | TC-Work | if nothing else to boast how he makes amazeballs money on the market |
| 20:44.58 | Dagmar | The only thing that could possibly make gold devaluate to the point where I'd lose money if is the market were flooded from Mister T selling all his chains, and that's never going to happen. |
| 20:45.11 | Jamash | Dagmar: but what happens when the economy is doing well enough that people don't feel the need to hedge against inflation? |
| 20:45.23 | Jamash | suddenly gold price drops |
| 20:45.26 | Jamash | boom |
| 20:45.32 | Dagmar | Jamash: it's not that it's "gold". It's that it's a raw material which has _utility_ and can be readily stored |
| 20:45.34 | Amarande | Dagmar: or if there's a mass failure in other securities so that loads of gold investors find themselves in need of cash and try to cash out |
| 20:45.41 | Jamash | which is why I said it makes sense to have a little, but not to put all your money in it |
| 20:45.56 | Dagmar | gold gets _used_. It's not funny smelling paper that senators can just print up on a whim |
| 20:45.57 | Corrodias2 | i jsut want someone else to handle this shit for me, take a small cut if they have to |
| 20:46.01 | Amarande | which is the reason for the above note about whether many 1%ers are really worth as much as they are, because a security that's worth $X per share and has Y shares on the market |
| 20:46.03 | Jamash | Dagmar: no it doesn't |
| 20:46.05 | Amarande | is only worth $X*Y *on paper* |
| 20:46.11 | Dagmar | Gold doesn't get used |
| 20:46.15 | Dagmar | Riiiight |
| 20:46.16 | Jamash | it sits in vaults and people's basements so people can use it as a hedge against inflation |
| 20:46.16 | Amarande | due to the deflatory effect of trying to sell a significant amount of something all at once |
| 20:46.21 | cbreak | Dagmar: if you want useful raw materials, invest into rare earths |
| 20:46.31 | Dagmar | cbreak: I'm not looking to invest actually. |
| 20:46.34 | Jamash | Dagmar: What are the *tons* of gold in Fort Knox being used for? |
| 20:46.36 | Amarande | which means it's patently impossible to actually get out of it anywhere close to every dollar it's worth |
| 20:46.45 | cbreak | those are bound to increase in price, now that china is moving to control the world market |
| 20:46.52 | Dagmar | I'm mainly looking to get my "wealth" out of hte system that lets rich assholes deliberately deflate the currency unit in question |
| 20:47.12 | Amarande | except in cases where you have your whole stock of something bought out in toto by another super rich entity (whose wealth is *itself* usually tied up in such securities) |
| 20:47.12 | Dagmar | If China wanted to step up rare earths production, they probably could, but they won't because it's in their best interests not to |
| 20:47.17 | cbreak | Dagmar: if you want to store wealth, you need to do so in some persistent form |
| 20:47.25 | Jamash | wealth isn't a thing |
| 20:47.26 | Dagmar | cbreak; Gold works pretty good |
| 20:47.30 | Jamash | it's the ability to get things |
| 20:47.32 | Amarande | which makes one wonder how much money there REALLY is in the world, in terms of actual cash that can be extracted, rather than how much it's worth "on paper" |
| 20:47.35 | cbreak | Dagmar: gold's risky |
| 20:47.50 | cbreak | since it has physical presence, it can be lost/stolen/... |
| 20:47.55 | Jamash | therefore individual wealth is inextricably bound up in the economy as a whole |
| 20:48.02 | Dagmar | cbreak: Money gets stolen just fine |
| 20:48.13 | Corrodias2 | cash gets stolen |
| 20:48.17 | cbreak | space would be more secure I think |
| 20:48.21 | Jamash | Amarande: You're thinking of "extraction" which is not how wealth works |
| 20:48.29 | cbreak | property of space |
| 20:48.29 | Dagmar | It especially gets stolen when you give it to an investment firm to hang onto |
| 20:48.29 | Corrodias2 | don't hold your savings in cash. |
| 20:48.37 | Jamash | think about the economy as if there was no money and everything was done via barter |
| 20:48.39 | cbreak | for building houses on top |
| 20:48.47 | cbreak | well, maybe not over there in the US |
| 20:48.52 | Jamash | it'd be inconvenient, sure, but there would be an economy |
| 20:49.02 | Amarande | Jamash: I was thinking in terms of the feasibility, even if all were willing, of redistributing the wealth from the 1% to the 99% without a lot of it vanishing directly into the ether |
| 20:49.16 | Jamash | Amarande: easy, stop allowing them to steal it from everyone else |
| 20:49.17 | Amarande | which doesn't seem to be possible, though, because stocks and such don't work like that |
| 20:49.26 | Dagmar | The best we'd be able to do would be to shift that by three or four percent |
| 20:49.30 | Jamash | nonsense |
| 20:49.40 | Jamash | the system supports the 1% in a huge number of ways |
| 20:49.48 | cbreak | Amarande: why is it neccessary that it does not vanish into the ether? |
| 20:49.49 | Jamash | if those supports were removed things would balance out |
| 20:50.04 | Dagmar | No, they'd just bribe more lobbyists and put in new supports |
| 20:50.08 | Amarande | cbreak: because one of the chief reasons to redistribute the wealth from the 1% would be to use it to assist the 99% |
| 20:50.18 | Amarande | if the wealth vanishes into the ether, you kind of can't use it to help other people |
| 20:50.20 | Dagmar | Rmeoving the symptom wouldn't fix the problem and the problem is corruption on epic levels |
| 20:50.21 | Jamash | I am applying a hypothetical situation in which that was politically unfeasable, Dagmar |
| 20:50.28 | cbreak | but there's no need anymore |
| 20:50.32 | Jamash | I'm not talking about what can be done tomorrow |
| 20:50.36 | cbreak | if it vanishes, the remaining ones are rich. |
| 20:50.51 | cbreak | in relative terms obviously |
| 20:50.56 | Dagmar | As to the wealth vanishing into the ether, I thought we were already clear that most of the "wealth" is simply fictonal anyway |
| 20:50.58 | Jamash | Very few people during the Roaring 20s thought that the Great Depression would happen, followed by the New Deal |
| 20:51.01 | Stanzilla | I like Pizza |
| 20:51.18 | Amarande | cbreak: heh, assuming costs follow downward fast enough to adjust to the reduction of overall total wealth in the economic whole |
| 20:51.20 | Dagmar | Like "Oh shit... all those home loans we bought aren't backed by assets!" |
| 20:51.23 | Jamash | in fact, Amarande, one of the best ways to deal with the issue would be to entirely vaporize most of that fictitious wealth |
| 20:51.31 | Amarande | I mean, consider this, since we all play or have played WoW |
| 20:51.31 | cbreak | Amarande: they'd have to |
| 20:51.34 | Jamash | then the "rich" wouldn't have so much political value |
| 20:51.41 | Jamash | s/value/power/ |
| 20:51.43 | Dagmar | Massive amounts of "wealth" disappear, somehow no one is at fault, and banks begin taking people's homes. |
| 20:51.46 | Amarande | Imagine if 99% of the gold on a typical server was yanked from the game altogether |
| 20:52.03 | Amarande | The initial reaction would be "woohoo, now we can actually afford gear and bags on the AH since nobody has money so all the prices dropped" |
| 20:52.13 | cbreak | Dagmar: wasn't it banks taking their own homes in which people were living on credit? :) |
| 20:52.18 | Amarande | The following reaction would be "GAAAAAAAAH 150% flight sucks" |
| 20:52.23 | Jamash | Amarande: a wow server has an even more fictional economy than the real one |
| 20:52.37 | Jamash | gold simply appears and disappears on a constant basis |
| 20:52.40 | Dagmar | If you made all that fictional "wealth" disappear, those people would just begin calling in their markers on all the material things their lenders were just pretending to own. Like homes with mortgages. |
| 20:52.42 | Amarande | Jamash: well, the point was to illustrate what happens if the costs don't drop in tune with the available wealth |
| 20:52.53 | Jamash | Dagmar: not if the markers were vaporized :) |
| 20:53.00 | Dagmar | ...which is why you'd only see a small part of the actual wealth change hands. |
| 20:53.10 | Jamash | that was what the government should have done in the mortgage crisis |
| 20:53.21 | Dagmar | I couldn't agree more |
| 20:53.26 | Jamash | simply eminent domain all the underwater houses for current market value and let the banks eat the losses |
| 20:53.27 | Amarande | If you dropped things to, say, pre-BC levels of gold, the AH would be a pleasure to shop in, and you'd take an expansion or so to afford your artisan and master flight training |
| 20:53.45 | Dagmar | Jamash: Id' rahter have liked to see *forced* reduction of interest rates |
| 20:53.47 | Arrowmaster | you didnt play in pre-BC |
| 20:53.58 | Amarande | Arrow: well, I know things cost a lot less back then |
| 20:53.59 | cbreak | Jamash: why don't the banks just kick out the people living in the houses |
| 20:54.03 | Arrowmaster | you have no idea what it was like then when 1000g was OMFG IM RICH |
| 20:54.17 | cbreak | and the former house-livers then buy a new cheap house since the market for houses is flooded? |
| 20:54.17 | Amarande | I understand the 600g for swift ground mount training was considered a lot of money |
| 20:54.19 | Jamash | Dagmar: I'm talking about taking the homes from the banks for the current price and *giving* the houses to the inhabitants |
| 20:54.26 | Dagmar | Just tell the banks "You made a lot of shitty investments which would never have yielded more than 1% return. That's your new interest rate. Suck it up." |
| 20:54.27 | Amarande | And if you redded-out on a plate warrior, you often felt like quitting the game for a few months |
| 20:54.28 | Jamash | no evictions |
| 20:54.34 | Jamash | the bank wouldn't own the house |
| 20:54.43 | Jamash | no interest rates |
| 20:55.02 | Jamash | let me modify that slightly |
| 20:55.21 | Dagmar | cbreak: Which depresses the housing market further, allowing more banks to call in the mortgages because of a lack of "capital" to back the mortgages |
| 20:55.33 | Jamash | the inhabitants would still have to pay off the *current* market price at the time the eminent domain was executed |
| 20:55.36 | Arrowmaster | what the fuck is this reverse morgage shit ive seen commercials for? |
| 20:55.42 | Jamash | but that would be vastly less than the bubble price |
| 20:55.45 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: Theivery |
| 20:56.09 | Arrowmaster | Dagmar: thats what i thought, at the end of it they own the house right? |
| 20:56.09 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: basically, you get a *really* shitty mortgage deal, and when you die, they take possession of your asset |
| 20:56.19 | Jamash | you sell your house back to the bank and hope you die before the money runs out |
| 20:56.34 | Dagmar | They pay you what would amount to half hte normal mortgage rate |
| 20:56.37 | Jamash | your heirs get nothing |
| 20:56.51 | Jamash | r lessthan nothing |
| 20:56.52 | Jamash | *or |
| 20:56.56 | cbreak | if you have a house with a huge mortage, why not just default? |
| 20:57.01 | cbreak | and then buy it back for cheap? |
| 20:57.02 | Amarande | Jamash: I don't think debts can be inherited in the USA |
| 20:57.04 | cbreak | that's the point. |
| 20:57.20 | Amarande | I'm *pretty* sure they can extract whatever you owe from your estate, up to whatever it's worth |
| 20:57.21 | Dagmar | cbreak: Because they can still continue to come after you for the difference |
| 20:57.23 | Jamash | they can come after you for the remainder unpaid if the house is worth less than the amount of the loan, cbreak |
| 20:57.32 | Amarande | but that they can't saddle your heirs with the balance if the estate is not enough |
| 20:57.34 | cbreak | Amarande: debits can be inherited here in switzerland, but it's optional. You can reject an inheritance. |
| 20:57.52 | cbreak | Jamash: :( ... lame. |
| 20:57.56 | cbreak | Dagmar: unfair! |
| 20:57.56 | Amarande | Though apparently the MPAA wants to change this after that one court case :| |
| 20:57.58 | Jamash | Amarande: but your heirs might have to sell off most of your other assets to pay off the house in order to get anything |
| 20:58.03 | TC-Work | whowould ever choose to inherit a debt? |
| 20:58.08 | TC-Work | who would* |
| 20:58.12 | Jamash | if the estate has assets *and* debts |
| 20:58.13 | Arrowmaster | cbreak: can you accept it then when its determined its a debt can you reject it? |
| 20:58.19 | Jamash | you can't pick and choose |
| 20:58.26 | Dagmar | cbreak: No it's not. it's completely fair. Citizens get hounded for hte rest of their lives because indentured servitude is apparently quite legal |
| 20:58.27 | TC-Work | then the assets are usually used to pay off the debt |
| 20:58.32 | Jamash | right |
| 20:58.37 | cbreak | Arrowmaster: you can accept or reject after that is determined |
| 20:58.37 | Jamash | which is why I said less than nothing |
| 20:58.49 | TC-Work | then you are not inheriting debt |
| 20:58.51 | Jamash | there's a debt, which has to be made up out of the estate, diminishing the value of the estate |
| 20:58.56 | Amarande | Jamash: yeah, but the point is, that if I understand correctly, if *all* your assets aren't enough to pay your debts when you die, they can't come after your heirs for the balance (unless there's a specific contract otherwise such as a co-signing agreement etc.). IANAL, of course. |
| 20:58.56 | Dagmar | Corporations on the other hand, have rights, and can file bankruptcy to get a clean slate, and can even die and then come back from the dead to evade creditors |
| 20:58.59 | TC-Work | it either gets all paied off or it does not |
| 20:59.03 | Arrowmaster | cbreak: right thats what i ment, basically say "figure out what ill get or owe then ill decide" |
| 20:59.05 | TC-Work | paid* |
| 20:59.06 | Dagmar | That's tewtelly fair |
| 20:59.07 | Jamash | Amarande: yes |
| 20:59.20 | Jamash | corporations have more rights than people |
| 20:59.22 | cbreak | Arrowmaster: sometimes it'd make sense to accept a negative inheritance |
| 20:59.27 | Dagmar | Amarande: No you're correct. They can't go after heirs for debts. |
| 20:59.33 | Jamash | we need an amendment that says that corporations have no rights whatsoever |
| 20:59.39 | Jamash | at all |
| 20:59.40 | Jamash | ever |
| 20:59.41 | cbreak | you get things with memories, maybe a family company, ... |
| 20:59.41 | Dagmar | They'll TRY to claim they can, but that's legally actionable |
| 21:00.12 | Jamash | and that corporations have responsibilities that have priority over making money |
| 21:00.14 | Arrowmaster | cbreak: right pay for an asset |
| 21:00.29 | Jamash | such as to the environment, communities, employees, customers |
| 21:00.49 | cbreak | for example: if someone owns part of a house, and the other part is owned by a bank due to a mortage |
| 21:00.53 | mckenziemc | so then corporations become indetured servants? |
| 21:00.57 | cbreak | you can inherit it or not. |
| 21:00.58 | Jamash | and if making good on those responsibilities causes the company to make less money, the stockholders can suck it |
| 21:01.01 | Jamash | mckenziemc: yes |
| 21:01.06 | Jamash | that's what they should be |
| 21:01.16 | Dagmar | cbreak: Generally you inherit the leftover after the asset is liquidated by the bank |
| 21:01.22 | Dagmar | ...and once they have their cut. |
| 21:01.52 | Dagmar | Optionally you can just pay the bank off |
| 21:01.58 | Amarande | Dagmar: though apparently the MPAA at least would like to see heirs have to take on debt burdens |
| 21:02.04 | cbreak | I think you can just continue the mortage contract |
| 21:02.09 | Amarande | chiefly because of that lady who got found guilty in that big piracy case a while back |
| 21:02.14 | Dagmar | cbreak: Nope. |
| 21:02.17 | cbreak | or maybe make a new one |
| 21:02.23 | Jamash | I'd like to see the MPAA take on the burden of paying people royalties |
| 21:02.29 | Amarande | basically, the MPAA is never going to see the half of what they were awarded from her, heh |
| 21:02.36 | Jamash | good |
| 21:02.46 | Dagmar | You can re-neg a new one. That's pretty much it unless transferrence of the mortgage is both in the will and the lienholder doesn't try to contest it |
| 21:02.51 | Amarande | Jamash: well, in this case, this was out-and-out blatant piracy, so it's not like she's too sympathetic a figure :) |
| 21:03.00 | Jamash | copyright penalties these days should come under cruel and unusual punishment |
| 21:03.06 | Amarande | as in, criminal conviction on top of civil judgment |
| 21:03.13 | Jamash | $500,000 per infringement on victimless crimes, yo |
| 21:03.36 | Dagmar | I'd like to see the MPAA pay those fees themselves. The RIAA member companies would pay off the national debt in just a few years |
| 21:03.40 | Amarande | which means basically everything she had went to the lawyers and to the criminal penalty, so now she's got nothing. and probably never will have anything, since nobody hires convicts in this economy. |
| 21:03.51 | cbreak | Amarande: pirates are sympathetic! never seen "Pirates of the caribian?" |
| 21:03.58 | Amarande | Dagmar: heh, if the music's really worth as much as they say it is, they should be able to pay off the national debt now :P |
| 21:03.59 | Dagmar | Amarande: That's civil not criminal |
| 21:04.10 | Amarande | Remember how they're suing Limewire for about four times as much money as actually exists in the world today? heh |
| 21:04.13 | Jamash | oh I'm sorry, $150,000 |
| 21:04.39 | Jamash | plus ten years in jail |
| 21:04.58 | Dagmar | *just* for selling CDs in Canada without a licence agreement and never bothering to pay artists, that number would have so many zeroes you'd need a team of assistants to keep track of them all |
| 21:05.46 | Jamash | eliminating statutory damages on noncommercial copyright infringement and repealing the DMCA would be a good start |
| 21:05.51 | Dagmar | It's probably a good thing they stopped the racketeering |
| 21:06.17 | Dagmar | I would file a whole shitload of countersuits if I were accused of pirating a Britney Spears album or something |
| 21:06.24 | Jamash | who says they stopped? |
| 21:06.34 | Dagmar | They did, and the news did |
| 21:06.41 | Jamash | the MPAA and the RIAA fit the definition of criminal conspiracies perfectly |
| 21:06.54 | Arrowmaster | at least the RIAA isnt as bad as the ones in some other countries that demand royalties on all music even if they dont represent the artist and will never pay the artist |
| 21:07.08 | Jamash | shut 'em down via RICO imo |
| 21:07.16 | Dagmar | Otherwise by now they'd have certainly angered someone like me who would take the attitude that they're going to be broke at the end of it anyway, so they might as well proactively spend their money to turn the whole thing into a circuis |
| 21:07.36 | Dagmar | I could definitely make the claim of greivous harm to my reputation |
| 21:07.47 | Dagmar | I despise most pop music. |
| 21:07.52 | Arrowmaster | Dagmar: that or firebomb their offices |
| 21:08.06 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: That would be the more merciful approach |
| 21:08.15 | Jamash | "The best-known is the protection racket, in which criminals demand money from businesses in exchange for the service of "protection" against crimes that the racketeers themselves instigate if unpaid (see extortion)." |
| 21:08.16 | Dagmar | I could do that, but it would be over too quickly |
| 21:08.32 | Jamash | mpaa + riaa = protection racket |
| 21:08.49 | Arrowmaster | Dagmar: bioweapons better? |
| 21:08.54 | Amarande | Jamash: heh, speaking of which, the guys who make StarForce copy protection allegedly engaged in that at one point |
| 21:09.01 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: Memetic weapons are the wave of the future |
| 21:09.04 | Jamash | see? |
| 21:09.24 | Amarande | There was that incident where one indie software company insisted on not burdening its games with DRM |
| 21:09.54 | Amarande | so, says the Internet stories, the StarForce guys took their game and put it up on BitTorrent and then went to other software companies to say "this is why you need DRM" |
| 21:10.16 | Dagmar | I'm suprised they didn't get their asses arrested for that\ |
| 21:10.22 | Dagmar | Oh wait, they're a "corporation" |
| 21:10.24 | Dagmar | Special rules |
| 21:10.25 | Amarande | Dagmar: I think they're in Russia or something like that, anyway |
| 21:10.35 | Jamash | http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=1209 |
| 21:10.39 | Dagmar | Ahhh |
| 21:10.58 | Dagmar | Now that we have Bitcoins, theres a lot of problems Timothy C May could solve. :) |
| 21:11.01 | Corrodias2 | it would have been available -anyway- |
| 21:11.46 | Jamash | note that they posted the link on *their own site* |
| 21:12.09 | Jamash | not just on a random messageboard |
| 21:12.23 | Corrodias2 | not that i'm defending the practice. what am i trying to say... |
| 21:12.44 | Corrodias2 | their target most likely assumed that it was going to happen, so doing so didn't really prove anything to them |
| 21:12.52 | Corrodias2 | unless they were somehow incredibly naïve |
| 21:13.16 | Dagmar | They probably posted the damn torrent |
| 21:13.32 | Jamash | also the RIAA illegally broke into people's computers to steal information |
| 21:13.40 | Dagmar | ...cuz like... russian _criminals_? Not a chance that's happening at all |
| 21:13.46 | Arrowmaster | most companies have rules on their forums of not posting warez links, the employee should have been fired for that |
| 21:13.55 | Dagmar | Kaspersky might be one of the few straight shooters over there |
| 21:14.06 | Amarande | Jamash: also the RIAA didn't even seem to quite understand what a computer is |
| 21:14.13 | Jamash | of course not |
| 21:14.28 | Amarande | They've been known to issue things like letters to universities that turn out to be saying "your laser printer has been downloading music" |
| 21:14.33 | Arrowmaster | Dagmar: except kaspersky doesnt believe the future includes being anonomous on the internet |
| 21:14.34 | Jamash | the execs making these decisions don't know about anything except money |
| 21:14.47 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: That's just stupidity talking there |
| 21:14.56 | Jamash | and most of what they know about money isn't even true |
| 21:15.08 | Dagmar | Hell, I'm still considering reporting Ubi for unauthorized installation of software on my computer |
| 21:15.28 | Amarande | Dagmar: PunkBuster? |
| 21:15.30 | Dagmar | Nothing in the EULA said word one about their installing a BHO, let alone a shitty one |
| 21:15.46 | Dagmar | PUnkbuster was mentioned, that was it. |
| 21:15.59 | Dagmar | I'm taking the memetic weapon approach there tho |
| 21:16.07 | Dagmar | Still kinda digging up what makes them anrgy |
| 21:16.09 | Dagmar | er angry. |
| 21:16.29 | Dagmar | All of it will be going into my "social media" profile on Ubiplay |
| 21:16.41 | Amarande | Yeah, Even Balance has this idea that everyone will devolve their quad core 16GB supercomputers to single-tasking machines when gaming :P |
| 21:17.24 | Amarande | By comparison, I'm pretty sure Blizzard has explicitly said at some point that Warden only examines code segments, so isn't anywhere near as ridiculously overreaching as PB |
| 21:17.30 | Corrodias2 | who's Even Balance? |
| 21:17.44 | Amarande | And you at least get the feeling you can trust Valve with VAC, although there is that fact that I don't think they've ever disclosed just what it pokes into |
| 21:17.46 | Jamash | this is an interesting point |
| 21:17.49 | Dagmar | PB is kinda heavy handed, but they're at least task-centric |
| 21:17.59 | Amarande | Corrodias: Even Balance are the guys who make a popular anti-cheating program called PunkBuster (PB). |
| 21:18.01 | Dagmar | They're not artificially forcing me to become a part of their "social network" |
| 21:18.08 | Jamash | "...none of the RIAA’s principal members are American. They are Vivendi Universal (France), Sony (Japan), EMI (Britain), and Warner Music’s (US, but controlled by a Canadian.)" |
| 21:18.28 | Amarande | The problem with PB is that, if it were not for the fact that games that have it ask you to accept an EULA for it, it would practically qualify as a Trojan due to how far it goes for the task. |
| 21:18.40 | Dagmar | But they do at least tell yhou |
| 21:18.53 | Amarande | Even with the EULA, it's still a definite potential security risk and might be classifiable at least as "malware" |
| 21:18.53 | Dagmar | I just happened to *notice* the Ubi browser plugin |
| 21:18.55 | Stanzilla | have you guys heard about valve adding software to steam? |
| 21:19.04 | Jamash | yes |
| 21:19.14 | Jamash | I've heard that valve is adding non-game software to steam |
| 21:19.16 | Jamash | that's all |
| 21:19.23 | Dagmar | They added a movie recently |
| 21:19.24 | Corrodias2 | indeed. i hope they make the UI convenient to support that. |
| 21:19.32 | Amarande | Corrodias: basically, the thing about PB is that instead of just scanning programs you're running like Warden does |
| 21:19.41 | Amarande | it insists on driver level access to all memory and all files on the hard drive |
| 21:19.49 | Amarande | and has the capability to send a screenshot |
| 21:20.05 | Dagmar | Only way to get a shot of the user's screen with the enemy team colored bright pink |
| 21:20.16 | Amarande | which I'm not entirely sure of who can request one, whether it's simply Even Balance employees who can or if J. random game server admin can |
| 21:20.25 | Dagmar | Server admin can |
| 21:20.29 | Amarande | Dagmar: yeah, just what I thought |
| 21:20.32 | Jamash | using steam workshop to sell photoshop plugins and filters and templates is a fascinating idea |
| 21:20.37 | Dagmar | It's *just* the game window tho |
| 21:20.42 | Amarande | Ah. |
| 21:20.52 | mckenziemc | until someone finds an exploit |
| 21:20.57 | Dagmar | Like, the only thing they see is the display window for Enemy Territory (for example) |
| 21:21.17 | Amarande | I was about to say, otherwise, unscrupulous admins ... "hey, that guy is idling a bit, maybe he's buying something on steam and I can screenshot him as he's typing in his CC details" would be a major issue :| |
| 21:21.19 | Jamash | what if I have a transparent window on top of it |
| 21:21.19 | Dagmar | Yer browser porno is completely disconnected from that so it doesn't wind up involved |
| 21:21.52 | Dagmar | Jamahs: That's why the memory access |
| 21:22.07 | Amarande | Of course, there's the matter of the fact that EB can have your memory contents transmitted to them as you're doing same. :| |
| 21:22.17 | Amarande | And come to think of it. Does EB have samples sent to them encrypted or clear? |
| 21:22.32 | Dagmar | I don't think they have any samples sent to them |
| 21:22.38 | Dagmar | That stuff goes to the server admin |
| 21:22.58 | Dagmar | One of the ET servers I used to go on would acutally post the incriminating screenshots |
| 21:23.17 | Amarande | Dagmar: I don't mean the screenshots, I mean the memory scan data |
| 21:23.50 | Amarande | like, whether J. Random Unscrupulous Admin can snag your full system memory, which if you have a lot of it has a good chance of having personal details from other things you did on the computer since you last booted it, I would imagine |
| 21:24.02 | Dagmar | I never noticed PB mysteriously talking to anything but the game server I was connected to |
| 21:24.12 | Amarande | like ... your passwords and such for other sites that happen to be stored in Firefox, etc. |
| 21:24.39 | Dagmar | It's also optional. |
| 21:24.44 | Dagmar | You can uninstall it. |
| 21:24.50 | Corrodias2 | i think it's safe to assume that the capability exists. |
| 21:24.51 | Dagmar | Then you can only play on non-PB servers. |
| 21:24.55 | Dagmar | ...with their hax. |
| 21:25.05 | Corrodias2 | and thus you should avoid it if you use the system for anything besides playing vidya games |
| 21:25.10 | Dagmar | ...but at least you can play (unlike Origin and Ubi) |
| 21:25.28 | Jamash | I'd love to play fattlefield 3 |
| 21:25.29 | Corrodias2 | i suggest foregoing human contact and learning to enjoy single-player games |
| 21:25.36 | Jamash | that was an unintentional slander |
| 21:25.42 | Jamash | I mean battlefield 3 |
| 21:26.00 | Dagmar | LAN parties mean you can just walk over and punch someone in the mouth. |
| 21:26.15 | Jamash | except it's not on steam |
| 21:26.24 | Jamash | and is on origin |
| 21:26.25 | *** join/#wowuidev Olison (Olison@fukdruidsgrr.org) |
| 21:26.32 | Amarande | Jamash: get a console |
| 21:26.38 | Jamash | I have a console |
| 21:26.47 | Corrodias2 | disgusting things that they are, they have their uses |
| 21:26.56 | Jamash | console FPS are for people who can't afford a gaming PC |
| 21:26.59 | Dagmar | Jamash: Oh well. It's a shame no one else is making any military combat simulations ever again |
| 21:27.08 | Corrodias2 | so, what's origin like? i recall there being some hubub when it started about having terrible terms of service. |
| 21:27.10 | Jamash | Dagmar: I like battlefield |
| 21:27.24 | Jamash | it's ea |
| 21:27.29 | Amarande | Corrodias: from what I understand (I've never personally used it) it's basically like steam, but from EA |
| 21:27.33 | Jamash | of course it has terrible terms of service |
| 21:27.49 | Corrodias2 | i guess that pretty much says all that needs to be said. |
| 21:27.50 | Amarande | yeah, we're talking EA here, they like to put their money into executive pockets rather than even use it to develop games |
| 21:28.00 | Amarande | let's put it this way. I was a subscriber to Pogo for a couple of years at one point |
| 21:28.02 | Arrowmaster | and getting banned from one games forums locks you out of your entire origin account |
| 21:28.23 | Amarande | and I don't think I ever more than once or twice saw any of my subscription dollars going to improving the actual games, many of which were full of bugs from start to finish |
| 21:28.41 | Amarande | (granted, I'm not sure how much EA can be blamed for this and how much of it was actually bugs in Java or Flash, but ... still) |
| 21:28.57 | Dagmar | This is why I don't "do" EA titles anymore |
| 21:29.46 | Amarande | Heh, I think I've bought exactly four PC games released in 2009 or newer, and that's counting Cata and MoP as games |
| 21:29.57 | Amarande | The other two are DA:O and Witcher II |
| 21:30.09 | Jamash | you can have your entire origin account banned forever "if EA (in its sole discretion) deems that your use of EA Services renders EA Services less safe for others and/or minors" |
| 21:30.22 | Corrodias2 | meanwhile, i buy every game i think i'd enjoy, even if i have way more than i'll ever be able to play |
| 21:30.25 | Dagmar | I'm prety sure I'm going to hit that clause with Ubi |
| 21:30.27 | Jamash | you don't even have to do anything |
| 21:30.48 | Corrodias2 | unfortunately, i suspect Valve has a similar phrase in their tos... except they're not likely to invoke it, while EA is |
| 21:30.51 | Jamash | you might say "you suck" and be hit for "making the service less safe for minors" |
| 21:31.08 | Amarande | And really, DA:O is only kinda sorta EA, since BioWare had been developing that well before the buyout. |
| 21:31.13 | Corrodias2 | EA has, in fact, given people temporary bans from the service for "unflattering forum posts" before |
| 21:31.26 | Amarande | The only thing where DA:O really seems to noticeably suffer from EA-ism is the fact that the DLC system is rickety as all get out. |
| 21:31.27 | Dagmar | If i'm lucky there will be news exposes about child predators anally molesting children over the internet (yes, right through the cablemodem) as a result of my mischief in Ubi's system |
| 21:31.36 | Corrodias2 | there was a case a while back on the bioware social forum. |
| 21:32.23 | Jamash | "Valve may terminate your Account or a particular Subscription for any conduct or activity that Valve believes is illegal, constitutes a Cheat, or which otherwise negatively affects the enjoyment of Steam by other Subscribers" |
| 21:32.29 | Jamash | so yeah, similar |
| 21:32.39 | Jamash | but how often do they do that |
| 21:32.56 | Amarande | Jamash: or next thing to loyal gamers who started young, "we are sorry, but you have just turned 21 and we don't want old codgers like you making the game unhappy for our teenage target market by complaining about their behaviour, so we're shutting down your EA account so the kids can stay on your lawn" :) |
| 21:33.09 | Corrodias2 | i have heard of people having accounts locked due to Paypal fucking something up and not being in any hurry to fix it. but i haven't heard of anybody being banned for bitching on a forum. |
| 21:33.19 | Jamash | paypal is evil |
| 21:33.24 | Jamash | no argument there |
| 21:33.25 | Corrodias2 | don't pay for DD things with paypal |
| 21:33.34 | Jamash | s/DD // |
| 21:33.46 | Dagmar | s/with paypal/ |
| 21:33.55 | Amarande | I've never had a problem with PayPal, except for that one time I tried to use their recurring subscription payment service with an eggdrop shell provider |
| 21:34.16 | Corrodias2 | other people have had lottttts of problems with paypal |
| 21:34.25 | Amarande | And in that case all I had to do was switch to having to manually send in the payment each month |
| 21:34.26 | Corrodias2 | and as i recall, as it's not a bank, it doesn't have to follow banking rules |
| 21:34.31 | Jamash | paypal might shut down your account for any reason and keep your money for 180 days |
| 21:34.41 | Jamash | not just your account |
| 21:34.51 | Amarande | Apparently, if you have a subscription payment set up with PayPal, and you delete the primary credit card *that you started the subscription with* for any reason |
| 21:34.52 | Dagmar | might but generally doesn't |
| 21:34.53 | Jamash | any account ever used on the same computer as your (or someone else's) account |
| 21:34.55 | Arrowmaster | only 180 days? when did that change |
| 21:35.16 | Amarande | the server is apt to fail to reattach the subscription to your new card, so the subscription has to be shut down and you're left having to do it by hand |
| 21:35.34 | mckenziemc | stabs Amarande |
| 21:35.44 | mckenziemc | wonders how long he'll live. |
| 21:35.47 | Jamash | http://tortoisesvn.net/howpaypalscrewsopensourceprojects.html |
| 21:35.56 | *** join/#wowuidev Olison (Olison@fukdruidsgrr.org) |
| 21:36.46 | Corrodias2 | excellent example |
| 21:36.59 | Ackis | http://www.ovh.com/ca/en/ |
| 21:37.00 | Corrodias2 | i've also seen confusion over anything they consider "pre-orders" |
| 21:38.55 | Jamash | I wonder if the new CFPB will crack down on paypal |
| 21:39.16 | Dagmar | Simpler answer, lawyers force the question to go to management, instead of someone in a "data entry" position in Mumbai who is just picking automated reply mails from a list |
| 21:40.37 | Arrowmaster | Ackis: eww ovh |
| 21:41.24 | Jamash | "Camille Busette joined the CFPB as Assistant Director of the Office of Financial Education. Before joining the Bureau, Ms. Busette was ... the Deputy Director of Government Relations for PayPal where she managed PayPal’s regulatory advocacy globally." oh well, it was a nice dream |
| 21:41.41 | Corrodias2 | lol |
| 21:41.44 | Jamash | foxes continue to run henhouse, film at 11 |
| 21:42.24 | Jamash | it should be illegal for the government to hire anyone who has ever been a lobbyist |
| 21:43.37 | Arrowmaster | i have a better idea, it should be illegal to be a lobbyist |
| 21:43.58 | Arrowmaster | punishable by public execution |
| 21:44.05 | Jamash | I'm down with that |
| 21:44.32 | Corrodias2 | but then the politicians wouldn't know who will give them the most "campaign contributions" |
| 21:44.58 | Jamash | campaign contributions should be illegal |
| 21:45.00 | Corrodias2 | the whole public bribery system would break down |
| 21:45.23 | Corrodias2 | (sounds like library!) |
| 21:45.31 | Jamash | or rather, contributions should be evenly split between all candidates on the ballot |
| 21:46.28 | Jamash | if you want to give $1000 to candidate A, instead $500 goes to A and $500 to B, or $333.33 each to A,B,C, etc. |
| 21:47.15 | Jamash | also corporations should be prohibited from spending any money on any political issue |
| 21:47.28 | Corrodias2 | yeah, i'd rather see an evenly-funded thing that equally explains each candidate |
| 21:47.33 | mckenziemc | knocks some sense into Jamash. |
| 21:47.43 | Jamash | knocks some sense out of mckenziemc |
| 21:47.51 | mckenziemc | dies. |
| 21:48.03 | Jamash | resurrects mckenziemc as a ghoul |
| 21:48.13 | mckenziemc | dies. |
| 21:48.52 | Jamash | gives mckenziemc an ice cream bar |
| 21:49.03 | Dagmar | s/explains/explodes/ |
| 21:49.28 | Jamash | I'd like a system that automatically appoints a special prosecutor for every politician |
| 21:49.40 | Dagmar | I could get behind that |
| 21:50.18 | Jamash | they'd have the right and responsibility to collect and retain all documents and records |
| 21:50.25 | Jamash | on a monthly basis |
| 21:50.40 | Jamash | none of this "oh well we deleted everything on the way out the door" nonsense |
| 21:51.02 | Arrowmaster | that nonsense is illegal |
| 21:51.06 | Dagmar | We should demand immediate redress of all state sunshine laws that allow that shit |
| 21:51.08 | Jamash | it should be |
| 21:51.15 | Dagmar | ...and then throw Romney in fucking jail on general principle. |
| 21:51.20 | Jamash | signed |
| 21:51.32 | Jamash | but if nobody will prosecute... |
| 21:51.36 | Arrowmaster | can it be genpop? |
| 21:51.43 | Jamash | thus the automatic special prosecutor |
| 21:51.53 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: I said "fucking jail" and I meant "fucking jail" |
| 21:52.02 | Arrowmaster | yeah genpop |
| 21:52.03 | Dagmar | I want him to have a new cellmate named "Stumpy" |
| 21:52.04 | Jamash | put him in arkham asylum with the rest of the supervillains |
| 21:52.12 | Jamash | wait they always get out |
| 21:52.29 | Dagmar | ...who will make sweet prison buttsex to him every night. |
| 21:52.29 | Dagmar | Because after all, correctional centers are profitable centers. |
| 21:52.29 | Jamash | oh yeah |
| 21:52.38 | Jamash | put him in a for-profit prison his company invested in |
| 21:52.43 | Jamash | sweet, sweet justice |
| 21:52.48 | Dagmar | Exactly. |
| 21:53.01 | Dagmar | It beats someone having to get into trouble for shooting at him |
| 21:54.55 | Dagmar | Just the fact that it's legal for CCA to lobby for longer, harsher sentences and more things being criminalized should put light to the lie that corporations are people with morals. |
| 21:55.53 | Jamash | who votes to keep counties dry? |
| 21:55.56 | Jamash | two groups |
| 21:55.59 | Jamash | the churches |
| 21:56.03 | Jamash | and the bootleggers |
| 21:56.06 | *** join/#wowuidev pb_ee1 (pb_ee1@89-158-95-138.rev.dartybox.com) |
| 21:56.32 | Dagmar | THey don't have to vote for it |
| 21:56.45 | Dagmar | It only takes 1-2 people to prevent there ever being a vote in the first place |
| 21:56.52 | Jamash | but they do |
| 21:57.11 | Jamash | http://www.lex18.com/news/rockcastle-county-votes-dry/ |
| 21:57.16 | Jamash | apr 4, 2012 |
| 21:57.38 | Dagmar | Someone slipped up then |
| 21:57.55 | Dagmar | Lynchburg prevented there even being votes for ages |
| 21:58.00 | Arrowmaster | those dry counties make no sense to me, they provide exceptions to chruches and it takes almost nothing to register as a church so why not make a liquor store church that accepts 'donations' |
| 21:58.33 | Dagmar | Not many people are that crazy |
| 21:58.38 | Dagmar | Could probably work tho |
| 21:58.45 | Arrowmaster | and make you fucking rich |
| 21:58.57 | Dagmar | besides which who wants to show up somewhere early Sunday morning to drink |
| 21:59.02 | Arrowmaster | if that doesnt work open a bar as a church |
| 21:59.28 | Dagmar | You're supposed to just stagger out of the back of the trailer, open the cabinets, and start right from the bottle |
| 21:59.48 | Dagmar | The main problem in dry counties is just a lack of planning |
| 22:00.02 | Dagmar | i.e., you have to plan ahead for your drinking |
| 22:00.11 | Dagmar | Drive a bit |
| 22:00.18 | Arrowmaster | are you in a dry county? |
| 22:00.38 | Dagmar | There's nowhere I've ever seen where more than half the counties around didn't merrily sell the hell out of alcohol to people who just drove over the county line |
| 22:00.45 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: No, but I've been before. |
| 22:01.03 | Arrowmaster | i know most of TN and KY are either dry or restricted |
| 22:01.06 | Dagmar | Heck, it's barely followed properly but ther'es a ban on most alcohol on Sunday here iN Nashville |
| 22:01.22 | Dagmar | Oh no... Most of TN is definitely not cry counties |
| 22:01.26 | Dagmar | er dry counties |
| 22:01.36 | Arrowmaster | most of it is restricted then |
| 22:02.02 | Dagmar | Restricted on Sundays |
| 22:02.04 | Jamash | Of the 120 counties in Kentucky, 37 are completely dry, 51 are considered partially dry or "moist", 31 are entirely wet, and one is classified as wet but is actually closer to "moist". |
| 22:02.14 | Dagmar | ...mainly so people won't show up to church with a fresh bottle |
| 22:02.31 | Dagmar | there's like eight counties or so in TN that are dry |
| 22:02.50 | Dagmar | Everywhere else ther'es just a restriction on Sunday, and a few that only allow beer and wine |
| 22:02.56 | Dagmar | I think ther'es two like that |
| 22:03.00 | Arrowmaster | looks like more than 8 to me http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alcohol_control_in_the_United_States.svg |
| 22:03.09 | Dagmar | Hell, Kentucky has fucking *drive through windows* at liquor stores |
| 22:03.32 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: That's because of the partial prohibition on sales on Sunday |
| 22:03.34 | Arrowmaster | heh we have liquor stores you drive through |
| 22:03.59 | Jamash | can you buy liquor and guns at the same time? |
| 22:04.27 | Jamash | in the drive-through? |
| 22:04.41 | Arrowmaster | no |
| 22:05.03 | Jamash | there's one in texas |
| 22:05.26 | TC-Work | can you also get a BJ as part of the drivethrough? |
| 22:05.44 | Jamash | that sounds inconvenient |
| 22:06.36 | TC-Work | http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jJ5l5ls0hP4 |
| 22:06.43 | TC-Work | guess how many people would do it anyway |
| 22:06.51 | Jamash | there was a drive-through strip club once but it closed |
| 22:07.21 | Dagmar | I just know I was downright shocked that KY was having drive throughs for booze when they had a lot of dry counties and a *shitload* of DUI offenders |
| 22:07.46 | Dagmar | If you have an empty, dry beer can in your back seat amongst the trash, in TN you can get arrested for DUI |
| 22:08.12 | mckenziemc | o.O |
| 22:08.35 | Dagmar | Our laws about that ar ea little wack |
| 22:08.47 | Jamash | TC-Work: I hate you |
| 22:09.01 | Dagmar | I actually got into a heated argument with a cop one night about whether or not me getting smokes out of my car constituted operation of hte vehicle |
| 22:09.17 | Dagmar | Apparently some people managed to hire shitty enough lawyers to be unable to defend against such a ludicrous thing |
| 22:09.34 | Dagmar | I, on the other hand, am an asshole, so I threw the ignition key in the trunk. |
| 22:09.47 | Dagmar | "Let's see you explain that one to the judge." |
| 22:10.40 | Dagmar | Good cops are never a problem, so if you're having a problem wiht a cop, it's generally a sign they're an asshole. |
| 22:10.57 | nicoli_s | ive had some terrible cop experiences |
| 22:11.01 | TC-Work | Jamash: thank you fore making me so hapyp |
| 22:11.05 | Dagmar | So if I'm going to a bar, I might have my keys on me, but the ignition key goes into the trunk of the car. |
| 22:11.05 | Arrowmaster | Dagmar: did you ever put the key in the ignition? |
| 22:11.05 | TC-Work | happy* |
| 22:11.15 | nicoli_s | got pulled over by some cops in ATL that obviously pulled us over for a black woman and a hippie man being in the car |
| 22:11.31 | nicoli_s | said we were going too slow because we were only going the speed limit |
| 22:11.37 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: No, guys have gotten DUI for merely being in possession of the keys... making the argument that they were just a turn of the key away from driving the vehicle |
| 22:11.38 | mckenziemc | lol |
| 22:12.17 | Dagmar | nicoli_s: "Get a warrant if you feel like waking a judge up for nothing at this time of night. We can wait." |
| 22:12.26 | Arrowmaster | Dagmar: ive heard that putting the keys in and putting it to only ascessory is considered operation of the vehicle but nothing as crazy as your saying |
| 22:12.42 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: _Really_ bad lawyers. |
| 22:13.05 | Dagmar | ...but to keep it from getting past the night court judges (who don't like bullshit and will throw it right out) I put the ignition key in the trunk. |
| 22:13.51 | Arrowmaster | you and your fancy car with multiple keys |
| 22:14.07 | Dagmar | I've got more than the usual number of keys since I had to have a door lock replaced. |
| 22:14.12 | Dagmar | :) |
| 22:14.27 | Dagmar | The driver's side door is the only door this one key will unlock |
| 22:14.29 | nicoli_s | Dagmar:it was 2 pm |
| 22:14.43 | Dagmar | nicoli: Even better reason to make them get a warrant |
| 22:14.44 | Arrowmaster | when i got my car the doors and ignition were seperate but i had to have the column replaced so i got it keyed the same |
| 22:14.46 | nicoli_s | but when he realized he couldnt smell weed he let us go |
| 22:14.57 | Arrowmaster | then i only had 1 key total for the car and locked it in the car |
| 22:15.41 | Dagmar | oops |
| 22:15.46 | Gnarfoz | with what did you lock it in? |
| 22:15.51 | Jamash | the door? |
| 22:16.01 | Gnarfoz | so? open the door |
| 22:16.01 | mckenziemc | trollolol |
| 22:16.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Gragagrogog (~blindpred@89.177.116.251) |
| 22:16.05 | Jamash | not all doors unlock when you shut them |
| 22:16.22 | Gnarfoz | why would the door be locked if you didn't lock it (with the key you left inside) |
| 22:16.24 | Dagmar | Don't you mean "lock when you shut them" |
| 22:16.25 | Gnarfoz | :o |
| 22:16.41 | Jamash | Dagmar: no |
| 22:16.42 | Dagmar | Mine you can't lock when the door is open |
| 22:17.03 | Dagmar | they've made it impossible to lock your keys inside the car basically |
| 22:17.36 | Gnarfoz | never seen a car where that'd be possible except throwing the keys in through a almost closed window |
| 22:17.43 | Jamash | Gnarfoz: doors have locks on them |
| 22:17.43 | Jamash | I've seen cars where you can't lock it when it's open, or where you can but it unlocks when you close it, or it doesn't do anything and lets you be an idiot |
| 22:17.54 | Dagmar | heheh |
| 22:18.00 | Gnarfoz | but then, I've not seen many old cars, much less ANY american cars. |
| 22:18.03 | Arrowmaster | Dagmar: i would except that if i had a remote door lock |
| 22:18.30 | Gnarfoz | Jamash: you don't say. and what do you lock those locks with? the key. that's inside the car. how do you lock the door again? :P |
| 22:19.00 | Jamash | Gnarfoz: I'm assuming you're being stupid on purpose |
| 22:19.11 | Gnarfoz | you're assuming wrong. |
| 22:19.39 | Jamash | 1. open door 2. lock door with door lock that is on the door, that you use your hand to operate, not the key 3. get out of car 4. close door 5. swear |
| 22:19.45 | Gnarfoz | either someone means something else by what they're saying that not obvious to a non-native speaker, or... you have really WEIRD doors. |
| 22:19.57 | Gnarfoz | door lock... operated by HAND? |
| 22:19.58 | Gnarfoz | what |
| 22:20.09 | Gnarfoz | hm |
| 22:20.12 | mckenziemc | o.o |
| 22:20.12 | Jamash | how do you unlock a car you're inside? |
| 22:20.15 | Gnarfoz | ah, from the inside |
| 22:20.21 | Jamash | see |
| 22:20.41 | Gnarfoz | well, those open when you use the inside door handle to open the door. at least on (see above) all cars I've ever been in |
| 22:20.59 | mckenziemc | this matters how? |
| 22:21.01 | Jamash | right, which is why I specified opening the door *then* operating the inside lock |
| 22:21.05 | TC-Work | you have to lock the dor after you open it |
| 22:21.05 | TC-Work | door* |
| 22:21.13 | Gnarfoz | ...and that doesn't work. :D |
| 22:21.23 | TC-Work | it does on my car |
| 22:21.31 | TC-Work | i have locked my keys inside |
| 22:21.34 | Gnarfoz | well, yeah, :\ |
| 22:21.43 | Jamash | which is why I specified that I've seen cars that let you be an idiot |
| 22:21.47 | Gnarfoz | hehe |
| 22:22.10 | TC-Work | mine is also from 1993 so it's a 'dumb' car |
| 22:22.11 | Gnarfoz | seems to be a case of "find whoever designed this crap and make them have to use it" |
| 22:22.17 | durcyn | which is why rfid keys are swell |
| 22:22.21 | Jamash | even the car that unlocked the door when it closed didn't do that for the back doors |
| 22:22.51 | Jamash | you can steal a car with a proximity key using a radio relay |
| 22:23.06 | Jamash | takes a lot of work and some technical savvy, but it can be done |
| 22:23.11 | Gnarfoz | sure, but that's not what durcyn meant by rfid keys, I suppose |
| 22:23.28 | Jamash | yeah there's proximity and there's pushbutton |
| 22:23.39 | Arrowmaster | one of my doors the lock is loose so when you lock it then close the door it unlocks |
| 22:23.48 | Jamash | proximity is more convenient but less secure |
| 22:24.36 | Jamash | my dad would drive somewhere, get out of the car, I'd try to drive away and then realize he still had the key |
| 22:24.53 | Jamash | because he never had to put the key in the ignition |
| 22:25.12 | Jamash | awk-ward |
| 22:25.58 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (~Kaydeethr@wowwiki/Kaydeethree) |
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| 23:07.21 | *** join/#wowuidev arton_ (~arton@63.142.161.8) |
| 23:07.46 | foxlit | some flies are idiots |
| 23:07.58 | foxlit | it just climbed into a lightbulb and is now slowly roasting |
| 23:08.22 | foxlit | hurray for incandescents? |
| 23:12.22 | *** join/#wowuidev MentalPower (~textual@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Administrator/MentalPower) |
| 23:12.22 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v MentalPower] by ChanServ |
| 23:32.44 | Shirik | TC-Work: agree |
| 23:37.16 | TC-Work | Shirik: well, maybe if you graced us with your presence more, you could join in and amazeballs people |
| 23:37.24 | Shirik | :( |
| 23:41.29 | mckenziemc | shirik can amass amazed balls? |
| 23:45.42 | TC-Work | yea, didnt know there was an amazeballs market did you |
| 23:46.00 | mckenziemc | i can feel a tingling down below already :( |
| 23:46.13 | TC-Work | why is that a bad thing? |
| 23:46.46 | mckenziemc | no comment |
| 23:51.22 | Amarande | Wow. Nobody seems to want the Robe of the Void pattern anymore. |
| 23:53.10 | Amarande | I've put it up religiously every time I visited the AH since I got it back in Scholo, and every time it's sat. |
| 23:53.50 | xyphoid | well nobody will ever wear it again |
| 23:54.41 | Amarande | not even mog? |
| 23:54.48 | xyphoid | your entire market is completionist tailors |
| 23:55.06 | Arrowmaster | it was an ugly robe |
| 23:55.10 | xyphoid | and it's been worthless since BC came out |
| 23:55.11 | Arrowmaster | nobody would want it for transmog |
| 23:55.22 | xyphoid | and has dropped in scholo through all of BC/WOTLK/Cata |
| 23:56.01 | Arrowmaster | and it has a high enough drop rate anybody that does want it could just farm it too so the only reason they would buy it is to save time |
