| 00:07.00 | Dagmar | At a guess the mail may be in your client's cache. Clear it |
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| 00:44.18 | Adys | is there a way to display the octal mode of a file? |
| 00:46.22 | Iriel | use stat? |
| 00:46.24 | Iriel | stat filename |
| 00:46.29 | Iriel | gives you Access: (0640/-rw-r-----) Uid: ( 103/ bind) Gid: ( 106/ bind) |
| 00:46.30 | Iriel | etc |
| 00:48.14 | Adys | Iriel: I mean "only" the octal mode |
| 00:48.25 | Adys | maybe in ls or some stat arg |
| 00:48.33 | Iriel | Write a perl script? 8-) |
| 00:48.38 | Iriel | ls doesn't seem to do it |
| 00:48.49 | Adys | well I already have om: aliased to python -c "import os, sys;\nfor f in sys.argv[1:]: print('%8o %s' % (os.stat(f).st_mode, f))" |
| 00:48.57 | Iriel | stat has a format option |
| 00:49.18 | Iriel | cuppa:/etc/bind# stat --format '%a' rndc.key |
| 00:49.19 | Iriel | 640 |
| 00:49.22 | Iriel | there you go |
| 00:50.47 | Adys | neat thanks |
| 00:52.22 | karl_w_w | any1 else not got their steam summer sale badge yet because it's not registering that you're in the group? |
| 00:52.52 | zenzelezz | which group? |
| 00:53.00 | mckenziemc | i didn't get one, because i'm not in the group |
| 00:53.07 | mckenziemc | so i guess that's a yes |
| 00:53.12 | karl_w_w | summer camp group |
| 00:53.31 | karl_w_w | the one required for the badge, coincidentally :P |
| 00:54.25 | zenzelezz | hadn't heard about neither the group nor the badge |
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| 01:16.05 | Torhal | I joined the group three days ago and it hasn't registered that I did. |
| 01:19.19 | Amarande | hrm, witcher 2 for 16 bucks |
| 01:19.23 | Amarande | worth snagging? |
| 01:19.31 | Amarande | (and do you need to play the first Witcher to have an idea as to what's going on in 2?) |
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| 01:50.02 | Esamynn | Amarande: I started with Witcher 2 and I wasn't completely confused, and I say snag it if you enjoy RPGs |
| 01:56.32 | Arrowmaster | dark mode is fucking hard though |
| 01:56.52 | Arrowmaster | im stuck at a boss fight with the assassin of kings |
| 01:57.25 | Arrowmaster | right after the elven bathhouse scene with triss |
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| 02:28.43 | pompy | Arrowmaster: i agree with that recommendation |
| 02:32.20 | Arrowmaster | the portal one i just made for the badge thingy? |
| 02:44.24 | Amarande | Snagged W2. It will be good to have something new to play PC side when WoW 5.0.1 hits. :) |
| 02:44.57 | Amarande | huh. speaking of WoW, I just discovered that apparently you *can* still get mats for Dirge's Kickin Chimaerok Chops :blink |
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| 04:04.50 | pompy | Arrowmaster: yess lol |
| 04:05.33 | Arrowmaster | yeah it wasnt letting me put recommendations for anything it didnt have playtime recorded on |
| 04:05.43 | pompy | i thought at first those badges for the pillar of community were part of th esummer sale, but they arent |
| 04:05.47 | Arrowmaster | so i had to pick something somewhat recent |
| 04:07.02 | pompy | blah, well steam is taking my last bit of money (i hope!) for the sale. |
| 04:07.44 | karl_w_w | pompy: steam don't need your money |
| 04:07.47 | karl_w_w | give it to me |
| 04:07.52 | Thunder_Child | Personally i would like to have a long chat involving pain with the designer of Witcher |
| 04:08.38 | pompy | http://en.thewitcher.com/forum/index.php?/topic/31358-linear-game-design/ |
| 04:08.46 | pompy | in that sense Thunder_Child? |
| 04:09.21 | Thunder_Child | pompy: no, more loke game mechanics and camera control |
| 04:09.27 | Thunder_Child | like* |
| 04:12.00 | pompy | 13 items in my cart right now >< |
| 04:12.20 | karl_w_w | why do people bitch about linear RPGs? |
| 04:12.28 | karl_w_w | linear RPGs are the best sort |
| 04:13.10 | karl_w_w | you can't tell a proper story when people are running off doing random shit |
| 04:17.04 | mckenziemc | tells the story of karl_w_w's death. |
| 04:21.28 | Torhal | mckenziemc: Was it by being talked to death via monologue? |
| 04:22.26 | pompy | he already took care of that one. |
| 04:22.35 | Torhal | Oh? |
| 04:22.53 | mckenziemc | locks pompy in a room with Amarande. |
| 04:23.00 | pompy | halp halp halp |
| 04:23.30 | Torhal | mckenziemc: Damn, dude. |
| 04:24.57 | karl_w_w | feeds Torhal to a group of ravenous puppies |
| 04:25.08 | Torhal | karl_w_w: WTF? I didn't do anything! |
| 04:25.21 | karl_w_w | the puppies don't care what you did |
| 04:25.30 | Torhal | Assmunchkin! |
| 04:25.40 | Torhal | locks karl_w_w up with pompy. |
| 04:27.26 | karl_w_w | Torhal why isn't there a Jesters in Morley? |
| 04:27.41 | Torhal | I have absolutely no idea what you speak of. |
| 04:27.57 | karl_w_w | I know! |
| 04:28.08 | karl_w_w | Jesters is an awesome pie shop |
| 04:28.12 | karl_w_w | Morley is a place |
| 04:29.14 | Torhal | If you insist. |
| 04:29.21 | karl_w_w | i do |
| 04:29.25 | Torhal | kk |
| 04:32.13 | mckenziemc | o.o |
| 04:33.04 | karl_w_w | jealous mckenziemc? |
| 04:33.49 | mckenziemc | what do you have against quiescens eyes |
| 04:33.52 | Stanzilla | Torhal my bestest friend on teh internetz |
| 04:34.24 | Torhal | Stanzilla: Stop that. You're making Fisker horny. |
| 04:34.26 | karl_w_w | run away Torhal |
| 04:34.48 | Stanzilla | haha |
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| 05:38.17 | Arrowmaster | being stuck on a laptop with 1/12th the ram you are used to is such hell |
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| 07:45.09 | karl_w_w | on reflection, this steam sale has been kinda lame |
| 07:46.50 | bluspacecow | oh rly ? |
| 07:47.49 | Corrodias2 | there aren't many releases in the first half of the year |
| 07:48.05 | Corrodias2 | i think November is kind of the cliché release month, isn't it? |
| 07:48.40 | Corrodias2 | but it did have skyrim half off and saints row 3 very low, several times, and i don't think either of those have seen significant discounts before |
| 07:49.45 | karl_w_w | but that's skyrim and saints row, who wants those? :P |
| 07:50.17 | Corrodias2 | yeah lawl |
| 07:50.42 | karl_w_w | it's just the repetition, between the regular sales and the vote and the flash sales some of them have been up 5+ times |
| 07:51.38 | karl_w_w | 10 day sale, but oh btw you'll have seen 80% of it by the end of the second day |
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| 07:54.16 | Corrodias2 | mised blessing. it gives you more than one chance to get stuff, if you miss it, too. |
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| 08:30.19 | karl_w_w | good design decisions in games: "and then, when you res, you have to stand around for 5 seconds unable to cast anything!" |
| 08:31.03 | zenzelezz | which game? |
| 08:32.45 | Torhal | Diablo 3. |
| 08:33.05 | Torhal | So full of awesome design decisions like that. |
| 08:33.50 | foxlit | Wait, why can't you cast anything after ressing in Diablo 3? |
| 08:33.52 | Torhal | Incrementing resurrect timer! Enrage timers, because you're not killing it fast enough due to kiting so you don't instantly die..... |
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| 08:34.08 | Torhal | There's that "ghost" period after resurrecting. |
| 08:34.15 | zenzelezz | in TSW, when you release your corpse and your ghost spawns at a respawn point, you can't start moving for about five seconds. Don't know why, and it pisses me off |
| 08:34.35 | Torhal | zenzelezz: That's icky. |
| 08:34.40 | neutronimity | 5 seconds is pretty short for finding control over your body. |
| 08:34.46 | foxlit | The ghost period is actually pretty neat. |
| 08:34.52 | karl_w_w | <foxlit> Wait, why can't you cast anything after ressing in Diablo 3? <- there's a 5s period where your bars are greyed out |
| 08:35.03 | foxlit | It'd be much worse if it it just spawned on top of the mobs camping the spawn point and said "well, figure it out!" |
| 08:35.05 | Corrodias2 | 5 seconds is an extremely long time for a game to lock the controls for no good reason |
| 08:35.19 | Corrodias2 | that's the kind of thing you measure in milliseconds. we're talking 5,000 of those. |
| 08:35.27 | zenzelezz | I'd be fine with the five seconds if you couldn't turn around, was just frozen |
| 08:35.35 | zenzelezz | but being able to rotate but not move... |
| 08:35.45 | foxlit | [you can move around in D3.] |
| 08:36.01 | karl_w_w | yes but most things move faster than you |
| 08:36.12 | foxlit | Things don't aggro you while you're a ghost. |
| 08:36.24 | karl_w_w | since when |
| 08:36.46 | foxlit | My impression is that it has been that way always |
| 08:37.05 | foxlit | They always go for the follower, who doesn't spawn as a ghost. |
| 08:37.37 | Stanzilla | finally happy with my raid frames https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22349357/WoWScrnShot_072312_103419.jpg |
| 08:37.56 | karl_w_w | either way, what is the point in it |
| 08:38.00 | karl_w_w | if u cant do anything |
| 08:38.08 | karl_w_w | it's just to make u that bit more pissed off |
| 08:38.20 | foxlit | You can run out of shit that'd kill you if you spawned on top of it |
| 08:38.27 | foxlit | Think of it as a "pick your spawn point" period. |
| 08:39.10 | Torhal | That makes sense. |
| 08:39.16 | karl_w_w | well, it has never been useful like that to me |
| 08:39.33 | foxlit | It also gives you the opportunity to use waypoints / area entrances to get the heck away from the pack of face-eating hellspawn that are camping you if you've had enough. |
| 08:39.50 | karl_w_w | what it has been is something i need to wait for every single time because it'd be stupid to start moving and aggroing things before casting my armor |
| 08:40.10 | foxlit | Stanzilla: personally, I'd rename everyone to "Bob" |
| 08:40.23 | karl_w_w | besides, maybe i want my follower alive :P |
| 08:40.51 | Stanzilla | foxlit: naaah |
| 08:40.55 | Torhal | karl_w_w: Then just don't die. Use that laughtastic Teleport: Fracture/Archon exploit. |
| 08:41.00 | karl_w_w | it's bad enough that it just stands in fire (another great design) |
| 08:41.16 | zenzelezz | Stanzilla: looks fairly clean |
| 08:41.47 | foxlit | Stanzilla: but perhaps more seriously, I'd want some sort of indication of who the tanks/healers are. |
| 08:42.06 | foxlit | granted, less of a problem if you only raid with your guild and know everyone by name. |
| 08:42.36 | Stanzilla | that I do, but otherwise I agree |
| 08:43.53 | karl_w_w | what's that spell under the 2 minute marker? |
| 08:44.13 | zenzelezz | Stanzilla: perhaps you could do a small colored border on the tanks and healers on those health plates |
| 08:44.25 | Stanzilla | nice idea |
| 08:44.28 | mckenziemc | divine shield |
| 08:45.28 | foxlit | also, is it just me, or do your raidframes entirely obscure your character? |
| 08:45.41 | Stanzilla | foxlit: they are below my character |
| 08:45.59 | Stanzilla | zenzelezz: I just tested that but it looks a bit weird having green borders on just some people |
| 08:46.16 | zenzelezz | I can imagine |
| 08:46.36 | zenzelezz | that's the part I always struggle with, finding some way that works without taking up more screen real estate |
| 08:47.02 | Stanzilla | https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22349357/WoWScrnShot_072312_104609.jpg |
| 08:47.16 | foxlit | stylize shield/cross icons and put them next to the name fontstrings :P |
| 08:47.36 | Stanzilla | that was my next idea actually |
| 08:48.03 | karl_w_w | i was gonna say in the top left corner myself |
| 08:48.30 | karl_w_w | and do those frames have range indication? :P |
| 08:48.38 | Stanzilla | yes |
| 08:48.56 | zenzelezz | style choice, but I'd put the icons to the right of the fontstring if you go for that solution... just because I think I think it'd look more symetrical :-) |
| 08:49.10 | zenzelezz | actually, I know I think |
| 08:52.01 | Stanzilla | I went with colored squares now |
| 08:52.07 | Stanzilla | the icon textures looked weird |
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| 09:13.44 | karl_w_w | I wouldn't do icons so to speak, just shape those coloured squares like a plus and a shield :P |
| 09:14.02 | karl_w_w | and give them a border like the frame border |
| 09:21.26 | neutronimity | let's give everyone time to gather. we'll need a handful of people to come with us |
| 09:21.41 | neutronimity | we must bide our time. they won't know what hit them |
| 09:21.54 | neutronimity | patience, friends. we will strike soon |
| 09:22.08 | neutronimity | we'll set flight once everyone is ready |
| 09:22.31 | neutronimity | let's give everyone time to gather. we'll need a handful of people to come with us |
| 09:22.36 | foxlit | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s684-xJwKvQ << the danishest accents while singing. |
| 09:22.43 | neutronimity | what are you saying? I'm not an one man army? |
| 09:44.48 | karl_w_w | a one* :P |
| 09:46.28 | neutronimity | I never learned English phonetics. :( |
| 09:50.26 | Elkano | but you knew it's caused by phonetics and not by orthograpics |
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| 14:47.48 | Jamash|macbook | sup bluipodcow |
| 14:55.44 | bluipodcow | Oh hai |
| 15:01.57 | karl_w_w | Jamash|macbook where do i buy parker ballpoint refills? |
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| 15:06.50 | Lopeppeppy | karl_w_w ... Amazon, of course. |
| 15:07.47 | Dagmar | I would like to proactively state that no one looking at woot.com today should even consider buying that detestable device. |
| 15:08.16 | Dagmar | That record player is bad, and the people who made it should feel bad. |
| 15:08.21 | mikma | dagmar: but i want one |
| 15:09.11 | karl_w_w | Lopeppeppy: amazon in australia? |
| 15:09.24 | Lopeppeppy | Amazon has international branches, sure! |
| 15:09.29 | karl_w_w | or are you forwarding my packages for me now? :P |
| 15:09.55 | Dagmar | mikma: The only thing that's likely to destroy records faster is playing them with a sewing needle shot through the end of a cone of construction paper.. |
| 15:10.00 | Dagmar | ...and it would be a close race. |
| 15:10.04 | Lopeppeppy | Nah, just pay super amounts of shipping. |
| 15:10.25 | Lopeppeppy | Dagmar, I have two really blunt sewing machine needles you could try, I serviced my machines yesterday. |
| 15:10.36 | mikma | dagmar: i'd pick shotgun and go to range with the vinyls |
| 15:10.39 | mikma | dagmar: PULL! |
| 15:10.42 | Dagmar | Buy something with a 12" base and a replaceable headshell at a thrift store first |
| 15:11.10 | karl_w_w | ew |
| 15:11.20 | karl_w_w | they made the woot website horrible |
| 15:12.53 | Dagmar | Some of the comments are great. "I wouldn't put a record on this on a dare." |
| 15:13.45 | *** join/#wowuidev Mihau (~Mihau@67.58.77.206) |
| 15:21.00 | karl_w_w | Dagmar: and "What color is the USB cable?" |
| 15:25.56 | *** join/#wowuidev pompy (~Mike@68.36.135.0) |
| 15:31.37 | bluipodcow | Mmmmmm Red Dwarf X Trailer |
| 15:33.54 | Fisker | No |
| 15:37.51 | *** join/#wowuidev arton (~arton@tx-184-6-176-223.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) |
| 15:55.07 | *** join/#wowuidev Gnarfoz (smallbrain@irc.geektour.de) |
| 15:59.22 | foxlit | http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4940048276#2 |
| 15:59.30 | foxlit | oh hey, you can get macro help in blue text now |
| 16:03.06 | *** join/#wowuidev pompy (~Mike@68.36.135.0) |
| 16:22.41 | *** join/#wowuidev nilyaK (~Kaylin@71-35-97-67.tukw.qwest.net) |
| 16:22.46 | *** join/#wowuidev TC-Work (~quassel@99-50-80-110.lightspeed.lsanca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 16:28.52 | Kraps | !ping |
| 16:28.52 | Kraps | ~ping |
| 16:28.53 | purl | ~pong |
| 16:28.53 | batbot | Kraps: pong! |
| 16:29.08 | nilyaK | !table |
| 16:29.17 | nilyaK | ~table |
| 16:29.17 | purl | tennis |
| 16:29.21 | nilyaK | woo! |
| 16:29.27 | nilyaK | hugs purl |
| 16:32.15 | Lopeppeppy | ~botsnack |
| 16:32.15 | purl | Lopeppeppy: thanks |
| 16:37.43 | *** join/#wowuidev arton (~arton@tx-184-6-176-223.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) |
| 16:48.28 | pompy | http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/309342_10151965949655022_1921678799_n.jpg |
| 16:55.43 | Fisker | Hey Lopeppeppy |
| 17:06.38 | Lopeppeppy | heya handsome Fisker-du! |
| 17:07.24 | TC-Work | stares incredulously at Lopeppeppy |
| 17:07.55 | Torhal|work | Invasion of the motherfuckin' body-snatchers, and shit. |
| 17:10.29 | Lopeppeppy | What? Me being friendly, outgoing, and a bit over the top? |
| 17:10.51 | Lopeppeppy | Ask Shirik to analyze this interaction - I think it falls right into Peppy-Standard. |
| 17:11.04 | Torhal|work | But…but…Fisker... |
| 17:11.15 | Torhal|work | He trout-slaps you on a regular basis! |
| 17:11.58 | TC-Work | no can do Lopeppeppy, Shirik does not unsderstand human emotion |
| 17:12.04 | TC-Work | understand* |
| 17:13.31 | Lopeppeppy | I am fully confident that Shirik can analyze my conversations. |
| 17:13.44 | Lopeppeppy | Torhal, did you miss that I always thank Fisker for providing my lunch-fish? |
| 17:13.52 | *** join/#wowuidev Nimhfree (~anonymous@65.183.138.34) |
| 17:14.10 | Torhal|work | I can't deal with this madness right now. |
| 17:14.15 | Torhal|work | goes fetal-catatonic. |
| 17:14.28 | Nimhfree | is there a way that my addons can detect which type of client I am using (32-bit or 64-bit)? |
| 17:15.12 | nevcairiel | I think there was a function for that |
| 17:15.26 | Nimhfree | [I mean besides trying something that is going to cause a Lua error.] |
| 17:15.41 | mikma | http://mikma.eu/hardware/raspberrypi/IMG_0725.JPG |
| 17:16.45 | Humbedooh | gold wallpaper, really? |
| 17:17.06 | TC-Work | i was actually going to comment on the fact that he has transformers |
| 17:17.21 | mikma | i don't, wife does :D |
| 17:17.21 | Lopeppeppy | I broke Torhal? But where will I live now? |
| 17:17.35 | Humbedooh | mikma.gay :( |
| 17:17.43 | Humbedooh | excuses, he can has them! |
| 17:17.43 | mikma | humbedooh: shuss swede |
| 17:17.52 | Humbedooh | pfft, so not Swede |
| 17:17.55 | Lopeppeppy | Think of that as "true neutral" wallpaper. |
| 17:18.11 | TC-Work | does that explain the completely out of place vases? |
| 17:18.21 | *** join/#wowuidev nilyaK1 (~Kaylin@71-35-97-67.tukw.qwest.net) |
| 17:18.27 | mikma | alo, what wallpaper |
| 17:18.40 | *** join/#wowuidev nicoli_s (~nicoli_s@67.58.77.206) |
| 17:18.54 | *** join/#wowuidev Torhal|work (~torhal_wo@67.58.77.206) |
| 17:18.58 | mikma | also* |
| 17:19.01 | TC-Work | and you seem to have a 70's chandelier |
| 17:19.16 | mikma | prettu much 2012's chandelier |
| 17:19.23 | Torhal|work | Nimhfree: Dunno if you got that since I disconnected, but Is64BitClient() |
| 17:19.30 | bluipodcow | Lol milkman |
| 17:19.42 | bluipodcow | Torhal no longer broken |
| 17:19.49 | Torhal|work | bluipodcow: ? |
| 17:19.50 | bluipodcow | Fix'd |
| 17:19.53 | TC-Work | well it's 70's for the US |
| 17:19.57 | Torhal|work | Dafuq you say? |
| 17:20.02 | Nimhfree | thanks a ton...that will help. I did all this work in the 64-bit MoP beta client, and found it broke in 32-bit mode |
| 17:20.04 | bluipodcow | Damn you autocorrect |
| 17:20.14 | Torhal|work | Nimhfree: o.O |
| 17:20.25 | Torhal|work | Nimhfree: Like what? There really shouldn't be any differences AddOn-wise. |
| 17:20.34 | Torhal|work | Even the bitlib wil be 32-bit. |
| 17:20.37 | Torhal|work | will* |
| 17:20.41 | bluipodcow | Apparently my iPod thinks mikma is a milkman |
| 17:20.45 | mikma | tc-work: might be, but it's 12's for me cause it's brand new with halogen lights ;) |
| 17:20.49 | mikma | bluipodcow: tnt |
| 17:20.49 | Torhal|work | bluipodcow: He may be. |
| 17:21.05 | *** join/#wowuidev cogwheel (~cogwheel@99-33-83-160.lightspeed.plalca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 17:21.06 | *** join/#wowuidev cogwheel (~cogwheel@WoWUIDev/WoWProgramming/morlando/cogwheel) |
| 17:21.20 | Lopeppeppy | The vases are at least paired, not completely random... |
| 17:21.23 | Lopeppeppy | sighs. |
| 17:21.29 | bluipodcow | Oh hai |
| 17:21.30 | Lopeppeppy | Cogwheel! I found us a restaurant. |
| 17:21.34 | mikma | also, what vases |
| 17:21.49 | Lopeppeppy | White globes a bit behind the tv? |
| 17:21.52 | Nimhfree | I have a bit field that represents information that uses all 32-bits. However, MoP causes me to add 2 new bits, so I went with bits 33 and 34. I discovered bit.bnot assumes 32-bits so that was bad, even in 64-bit client. And in 32-bit client, bits 33 and 34 are stripped so only the first 32-bits are used. |
| 17:21.55 | mikma | you mean the ikea lamps |
| 17:21.57 | Humbedooh | mikma, go find a dictionary :\ |
| 17:21.57 | mikma | `? |
| 17:22.02 | bluipodcow | Monkey sex |
| 17:22.03 | mikma | i love lamp |
| 17:22.15 | Lopeppeppy | Not entirely safe for work: http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/members-only-a-visit-to-beijing-s-exclusive-penis-restaurant-a-549788.html |
| 17:22.28 | Torhal|work | Nimhfree: There's something wrong with that. The bitlib is 32-bit no matter which client, and if it isn't there's a bug. |
| 17:22.53 | mikma | also, not a wallpaper ;) it's the live thing |
| 17:23.17 | Nimhfree | well, I can take bits 34 through 27 representing a number from 0 to 127 and they seem to work properly when I am accessing them |
| 17:23.22 | Lopeppeppy | We meant the real wallpaper on the walls, mikma. :P |
| 17:23.45 | mikma | oh, cause we don't call it as "wallpaper" in here, haha |
| 17:23.51 | *** join/#wowuidev nilyaK (~Kaylin@71-35-97-67.tukw.qwest.net) |
| 17:23.58 | Arrowmaster | Torhal|work, this was reported when the 64bit client first came out that there were ui behavior differences and we suspected bitlib |
| 17:23.59 | Torhal|work | Nimhfree: The fact that you're operating on 34 bits should raise red flags anyway, considering there is a 32-bit client that you're ignoring :) |
| 17:24.13 | cogwheel | omnomnom |
| 17:24.13 | mikma | and because of that |
| 17:24.15 | Torhal|work | Arrowmaster: Typical? :) |
| 17:24.17 | Lopeppeppy | Ah. It's wallpaper for americans. Pretty paper you paste onto the walls. Wall paper. |
| 17:24.28 | Humbedooh | what else would wallpaper be? |
| 17:24.33 | mikma | humbedooh: white + silver "wallpaper" that have been illuminated by camera's flashlight |
| 17:24.44 | Humbedooh | pfft, still gay |
| 17:24.50 | Humbedooh | and swedish |
| 17:24.53 | Humbedooh | and....and... |
| 17:25.03 | mikma | says the swede |
| 17:25.10 | Humbedooh | says the other swede |
| 17:25.29 | mikma | that's mean you are as gay as me |
| 17:25.42 | Nimhfree | I had been limiting myself to 32 bits but I did not want to make another structure to add just another couple of bits, so I tested the two new bits and all was well until I went to the 32-bit world. It was supposed to be OK because we supposedly have everything stored in doubles instead of ints, but it seems the internal representation cannot handle it. |
| 17:25.43 | Torhal|work | Nimhfree: Use two bitfields if necessary, but I don't see how checking which client will solve anything if you're just doing The Right Thing to begin with. |
| 17:25.53 | Humbedooh | fine, pft |
| 17:25.55 | nilyaK | yea bitlib in wow seems to use 32 bit numbers even if you're using the 64 bit client, can you break your bitfield into two substrings? |
| 17:26.25 | nilyaK | I would imagine they want addons to work the same way in both clients is the reason |
| 17:26.34 | Arrowmaster | you can also attempt to do it without bitlib |
| 17:26.39 | nilyaK | so some newbie doesn't download a 64 bit addon and be like o.O |
| 17:26.52 | Nimhfree | I was going to detect the client version and then not present the new data in the case of the 32-bit client. however, the amount of work that will take may not be worth the effort compared to shoehorning the two new bits into another structure. |
| 17:27.12 | Lopeppeppy | There are still a few of us 32 bit peoples left in the world. |
| 17:27.34 | mikma | old farts |
| 17:27.39 | nilyaK | thinks that there should be some way to make a bit pun with that. |
| 17:28.16 | Torhal|work | There shouldn't be any differences, though, between the two clients: All integer values should be 32 bits no matter what. In fact, they've clamped down on that stuff in MoP - things which worked (or SEEMED to) with string.format no longer will because they were actually overflowing an int and not erroring. |
| 17:29.24 | *** join/#wowuidev Jamash|macbook (45f6ca60@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.246.202.96) |
| 17:29.26 | *** join/#wowuidev arton (~arton@tx-184-6-176-223.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) |
| 17:29.33 | Jamash|macbook | what's this about red dwarf |
| 17:29.42 | Fisker | hey cogwheel |
| 17:29.45 | Fisker | i like you |
| 17:30.00 | nilyaK | in heavy syrup? |
| 17:30.04 | Jamash|macbook | that's ridiculous |
| 17:30.05 | cogwheel | on a bagel |
| 17:30.08 | Jamash|macbook | nobody likes cogwheel |
| 17:30.11 | Jamash|macbook | it's all his fault |
| 17:30.29 | Nimhfree | I know. I go to great lengths the make the same addons work in both MoP and live, across languages. However, this 32-bit client thing just made me annoyed since the work I put into the new aspects will have to be changed out. |
| 17:30.32 | Torhal|work | I know cogwheel - he called me Jesus once! |
| 17:30.57 | Torhal|work | Nimhfree: Well, working with 34 bits will do that when you have 32 available...:) |
| 17:31.45 | bluipodcow | IIRC so did I Torhal |
| 17:31.52 | Nimhfree | we really do not have integers available. did Blizzard state anywhere they are limited to 32 bit values? Just wondering. |
| 17:32.01 | Torhal|work | bluipodcow: Yes, but you didn't do so loudly in a restaurant. |
| 17:32.31 | Torhal|work | Nimhfree: Yup. I made a bug report on the forums and was told it's because I was overflowing a 32-bit integer (which works just fine on live BTW) |
| 17:32.49 | Nimhfree | ok...back to the workbench to get this changed. |
| 17:32.56 | Torhal|work | The Lua error stated that I was overflowing an int, but because it worked on live I assumed there was a bug with MoP. |
| 17:33.16 | *** join/#wowuidev Gnarfoz (smallbrain@WoWUIDev/WowAce/Gnarfoz) |
| 17:33.19 | Torhal|work | The actuality is that 4.x just kinda ignored the error. |
| 17:34.24 | Torhal|work | Nimhfree: Lua doesn't work with integers, this is true, but the C/C++ side does and Blizzard isn't using vanilla Lua 5.1 |
| 17:34.48 | Jamash|macbook | what value is overflowing? |
| 17:35.42 | Jamash|macbook | man I hope my lappy is fixed today |
| 17:35.51 | Jamash|macbook | then I can get back to work on learning aid |
| 17:35.53 | Torhal|work | Jamash|macbook: Something he's writing on the 64-bit client that is (incorrectly) accepting working with 34 bits (which naturally breaks readily on the 32-bit client) |
| 17:36.01 | Jamash|macbook | yeah but whaaaaat |
| 17:36.05 | Torhal|work | No idea. |
| 17:36.08 | Jamash|macbook | EMWTK |
| 17:36.21 | Torhal|work | Tabloid reader! |
| 17:36.23 | Torhal|work | :D |
| 17:38.54 | bluipodcow | There's a new Red Dearf |
| 17:39.24 | Nimhfree | Jamash|macbook: Grail |
| 17:39.25 | bluipodcow | Red dwarf trailer on Facebook for series X |
| 17:44.03 | Jamash|macbook | Nimhfree: what API breaks with >32 bit ints? |
| 17:44.26 | Nimhfree | bit.bnot is one painful example |
| 17:45.03 | *** join/#wowuidev stolenlegacy (~stolenleg@unaffiliated/stolenlegacy) |
| 17:45.07 | Nimhfree | but the fact that I was able to use them successfully on the 64-bit client made me think the underlying data that was being used would allow them to work on 32-bit client, but I was wrong. |
| 17:48.46 | Jamash|macbook | ah |
| 17:52.45 | Arrowmaster | if i remember correctly, either slouken or zoot made some modifications to bitlib when they first introduced it, i bet whoever ported it over for the 64bit client either didnt port those modifications or missed something |
| 17:53.33 | Lopeppeppy | I'm gonna blame Slouken. It's always the drunken pirate's fault. |
| 17:53.38 | Lopeppeppy | mutters something about cookies. |
| 17:53.59 | mckenziemc | ~trout Lopeppeppy |
| 17:53.59 | purl | ACTION slaps Lopeppeppy around a bit with a large trout! |
| 17:54.08 | Arrowmaster | actually im leaning more towards it being zoot that did the modifications |
| 17:54.48 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (~Kaydeethr@wowwiki/Kaydeethree) |
| 17:55.07 | kd3 | ugh. so glad I had the foresight to set my alarm the instant I got off work yesterday... |
| 17:55.18 | Lopeppeppy | Because.... |
| 17:55.35 | kd3 | got home around 18:30 last night, felt tired, hopped in bed for "a nap", didn't wake up til my alarm woke me at 06:30 this morning |
| 17:55.43 | *** join/#wowuidev arton (~arton@tx-184-6-176-223.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) |
| 17:55.44 | Lopeppeppy | Nice. |
| 17:55.46 | cbreak | got food? |
| 17:56.07 | *** join/#wowuidev Telshin (~textual@67.58.77.206) |
| 17:56.13 | Lopeppeppy | I tend to turn mine back on as soon as I turn it off. Which sucks on Saturday mornings, but means I get some laundry done. |
| 17:56.13 | Fisker | hey kd3 |
| 17:56.14 | kd3 | does a pop tart count? |
| 17:56.20 | kd3 | 'lo |
| 17:56.37 | Dagmar | Of course it does. It even has vitamins. |
| 17:56.43 | Dagmar | Seven of them, in fact. It's right there on the wrapper. |
| 17:56.43 | mckenziemc | lol |
| 17:57.09 | kd3 | hah |
| 17:59.10 | *** join/#wowuidev isman (~drag@mna75-2-82-67-196-34.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 18:01.06 | Amarande | Dagmar: with that kind of optimism, you'll handle the future transition to Soylent green quite well :D |
| 18:01.10 | neutronimity | I believe my task manager crashed |
| 18:01.41 | Dagmar | Amarande: People are all-natural and probably quite delicious. |
| 18:01.52 | kd3 | "How to serve man" |
| 18:01.59 | mckenziemc | o.o |
| 18:02.13 | Dagmar | Of course within a few years the Japanese will probably have figured out how to make people taste like soybeans. |
| 18:02.42 | TC-Work | i prefer it the other way round |
| 18:02.43 | Lopeppeppy | kd3, Poptarts are great breakfast when you're fsk'd for time. Any other time, no. :P |
| 18:03.17 | Dagmar | TC-Work: WHy do you _think_ miso is so popular... |
| 18:03.49 | Lopeppeppy | My grocery store sells mochi. It made me die a little bit inside. |
| 18:04.00 | TC-Work | Dagmar: I cant stand miso... |
| 18:05.08 | Dagmar | Lopeppeppy: How well does it lather? |
| 18:05.50 | *** join/#wowuidev pb_ee1 (pb_ee1@89-158-95-138.rev.dartybox.com) |
| 18:06.07 | Amarande | Dagmar: definitely not organic, though |
| 18:06.20 | Dagmar | THe first time I saw a mochi cake I just thought it was one of those weird hygeiene things like the steaming hot towel at the sushi place |
| 18:06.29 | Amarande | How does that one item in Hellfire go? something like "succulent free range helboar, not quite organic" LOL |
| 18:08.28 | Amarande | Dagmar: it's easy to make people taste like soybeans, just use them as a "flavouring" for tofu |
| 18:08.32 | Dagmar | I don't mind the asian foods so much as I mind that my friends are bastards who don't fill me in on things |
| 18:08.34 | Amarande | I've heard of people who somehow manage to do otherwise |
| 18:08.38 | Dagmar | Things like "that is not soap" |
| 18:08.53 | Amarande | but ... for the most part, what I've gathered is that the whole idea that tofu takes on the flavouring of whatever you cook it with is a damned lie |
| 18:09.40 | nilyaK | tofu tastes like tofu, if you expect this it's not awful in some dishes, if you expect it to taste like beef or chicken you're in for a depressing meal. |
| 18:10.12 | Dagmar | I like it fine. |
| 18:10.48 | Dagmar | ...although I don't like it when it goes a little "off". |
| 18:11.14 | Dagmar | I will take salmonella over that, any day of the week. |
| 18:11.55 | Dagmar | If you know the issue of which I speak, you probably agree with my sentiment. |
| 18:13.57 | Dagmar | I stumbled across a packet of instant miso that had been in my desk outside of the airtight plastic packet for about six months, was peckish, went to the coffee maker to get boiling water, made it, drank it. |
| 18:14.01 | kd3 | mm... scary thought: "Society is five missed meals away from total anarchy." |
| 18:14.04 | Dagmar | I had to spend the rest of my shift in the machine room. |
| 18:14.25 | pompy | http://www.wowhead.com/news=204933/mists-of-pandaria-digital-deluxe-version |
| 18:15.18 | Fisker | hey pompy |
| 18:15.47 | Fisker | in b4 massive whine pompy |
| 18:15.54 | Fisker | also in b4 kaching |
| 18:17.01 | nilyaK | lol watch Blizzard include pet in one mount in the other just so make OCD collectors buy both |
| 18:17.07 | nilyaK | to* |
| 18:17.14 | *** join/#wowuidev neutronimity (~neutronim@e179206113.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 18:17.31 | *** join/#wowuidev rtharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht) |
| 18:18.28 | mikma | rtharper: http://mikma.eu/hardware/raspberrypi/IMG_0725.JPG |
| 18:18.36 | Amarande | heh, why would Blizzard do that, though, really |
| 18:18.41 | rtharper | NICE |
| 18:18.55 | Amarande | I mean, it's to their best advantage to get people to buy the CE easily from battle.net and NOT go to Wal-Mart or Gamestop |
| 18:18.55 | nilyaK | but does it blend? |
| 18:19.44 | Amarande | When you buy the game from Blizzard, particularly WoW, that means nigh on 100% of what you're paying for is profit margin for them. |
| 18:19.48 | bluipodcow | Nah |
| 18:20.07 | bluipodcow | Blizzard can just ban the winers |
| 18:20.11 | bluipodcow | Oh wait |
| 18:20.14 | Amarande | No cost for production of a physical copy, and not really any cost for production of the digital copy either compared to what they're already giving you (since the same patches are delivered to all players regardless of account level) |
| 18:20.22 | bluipodcow | U mad? |
| 18:20.35 | Torhal|work | kickbans bluipodcow. |
| 18:20.42 | bluipodcow | Lol |
| 18:21.12 | Amarande | If Blizz encourages you to buy a copy from the store, especially a CE, that means plenty of costs for production of the physical copy (especially with artbook and making-of DVD that you're not getting with the digital deluxe edition), and that plenty of what you pay is going to the retailer instead of them. |
| 18:21.15 | nilyaK | hugs bluipodcow |
| 18:21.15 | bluipodcow | I keed I keed |
| 18:21.18 | *** join/#wowuidev olafski (olafski@53558C29.cm-6-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) |
| 18:21.31 | Amarande | So it costs more and they get less if they encourage you to purchase a physical copy. They'd do everything to get you to buy the DDE. :) |
| 18:21.40 | Torhal|work | bluipodcow: Who's car did you key? |
| 18:22.06 | Arrowmaster | better not have been mine, its got enough scraches on it already |
| 18:22.21 | olafski | nor mine, it's too cute |
| 18:22.24 | olafski | (hi) |
| 18:22.31 | Nimhfree | I would imagine DDE costs them very little since it is really only bandwidth costs |
| 18:22.35 | Torhal|work | olafski: first version |
| 18:23.24 | bluipodcow | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:23.30 | bluipodcow | I sowwy |
| 18:23.33 | bluipodcow | Hugs ? |
| 18:24.07 | Torhal|work | encases bluipodcow in carbonite. |
| 18:24.36 | bluipodcow | Yay |
| 18:24.58 | olafski | the first? ye gods |
| 18:26.58 | Amarande | Nimhfree: yeah, like I said, it costs them essentially zilch |
| 18:27.20 | Amarande | because when MoP comes out, everyone gets the same 5.0.1 or 5.0.3 or whatever it is delivered to them regardless of whether they have yet purchased MoP |
| 18:27.32 | Amarande | the client is the same, the only thing different is access privileges to content |
| 18:27.34 | bluipodcow | Lol |
| 18:27.40 | bluipodcow | You assume |
| 18:27.57 | pompy | lol |
| 18:30.56 | nevcairiel | it'll be 5.0.4 btw! |
| 18:31.22 | bluipodcow | Would you like a jellybaby? |
| 18:31.36 | nevcairiel | i would like a jellybean for my mobile |
| 18:31.40 | Amarande | heh, and by the time it's out, we'll be on 5.1.0! |
| 18:33.27 | nevcairiel | man wth is wrong with my WoW, everytime i run the launcher, it asks for UAC elevation and runs itself twice |
| 18:33.36 | nevcairiel | maybe i should reinstall |
| 18:34.05 | bluipodcow | Hit it with a talking trout |
| 18:34.11 | bluipodcow | Or a singing one |
| 18:34.33 | nevcairiel | guess i'll just try to ignore it until 5.0.4 goes live and reinstall then |
| 18:34.45 | nevcairiel | should be only 2 month max |
| 18:34.47 | Nimhfree | nevcairiel: seems like a windows problem |
| 18:35.17 | Nimhfree | anyone know when Jade Forest will once again be available? |
| 18:37.32 | kd3 | next build, supposedly |
| 18:37.45 | nevcairiel | hope it gets more stable as well |
| 18:37.48 | nevcairiel | this one is horrible |
| 18:38.09 | nevcairiel | also, where is the ingame feedback tool this time around, i want to report bugs, but am too lazy for forum posts :P |
| 18:38.30 | *** join/#wowuidev Unkle (~Unkle@129.7.90.213) |
| 18:39.04 | bluipodcow | ? On bottom bar I think |
| 18:39.04 | Nimhfree | perhaps their ingame feedback was VERY unstable so they pulled it :) |
| 18:39.23 | kd3 | it's still disabled last I checked. they moved it to the help/gm report window |
| 18:39.35 | Unkle | station. |
| 18:39.39 | bluipodcow | Big reports forum |
| 18:39.50 | bluipodcow | Oh hi unkley wunkley |
| 18:46.44 | nevcairiel | ha, i still have a quest from hallow's end in my quest log, and the map and minimap actually point to the npc who is supposed to be there |
| 18:46.55 | nevcairiel | too bad it doesnt show up =p |
| 18:51.21 | zenzelezz | then next year you'll have a head start! |
| 18:53.16 | Amarande | Blood and bloody ashes, AT&T |
| 18:53.51 | Amarande | Seriously, am I going to have to drag my butt out to a physical AT&T Store and probably have the iPhone hawked at me at every step in order to get this plan change sorted out :| |
| 18:54.15 | cbreak | neat. Invulnerable Wizzards. |
| 18:54.23 | cbreak | I bet that's fun. |
| 18:54.34 | Amarande | cbreak: heh. my mage is pretty much invulnerable most of the time unless I'm really in over my head |
| 18:55.09 | Amarande | gotta love frost and its super-bubble every 25 seconds |
| 18:55.25 | kd3 | holy shit, a discovery channel telescope? |
| 18:55.27 | Amarande | not to mention the extra bubble when fighting casters who use fire, arcane or frost |
| 18:55.30 | kd3 | http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/07/23/discovery-channel-telescope-sees-first-light/ |
| 18:56.07 | cbreak | http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/07/exploit-allows-for-invulnerable-diablo-iii-wizards/ |
| 18:56.12 | Amarande | ah, D3 |
| 18:56.17 | Amarande | I *still* haven't picked up D3 yet |
| 18:56.29 | Amarande | probably won't for a while, since I just got Witcher 2 |
| 18:56.44 | cbreak | I am not convinced D3 is a game |
| 18:56.50 | cbreak | it feels more like an addiction. |
| 18:57.01 | nilyaK | it's a game in the same way the lottery is a game |
| 18:57.18 | nilyaK | it has an 18+ rating and primarily exists to give money to the operator. |
| 18:57.20 | cbreak | lottery is taxes for people who suck at statistics |
| 18:57.26 | Amarande | cbreak: it's no more or less a game than, say, Dungeon Hack was |
| 18:57.34 | Amarande | or for that matter, nethack. |
| 18:57.48 | cbreak | angband > nethack. |
| 18:57.48 | nilyaK | cbreak: or really like donating to upkeep my roads, I <3 them for it. |
| 18:58.02 | Amarande | "Let's go through a dungeon that's pretty much here to let you kill things and get loot with only a fairly minimal plot most of the time to give a reason to be there" has been a chestnut for years |
| 18:58.32 | cbreak | nilyaK: in my country, lottery money is used for social things like orphans, or so... |
| 18:58.41 | nilyaK | ah |
| 18:59.18 | *** join/#wowuidev Dewin (~Daniel@c-76-28-131-143.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 18:59.19 | nilyaK | that's nice of them, it's bascially used to build roads and repave them where I am. |
| 18:59.30 | nilyaK | better for me but it probably doesn |
| 18:59.32 | Amarande | here the money goes into the "Connecticut General Fund" which I'm not quite sure what it does |
| 18:59.34 | nilyaK | 't feel as altruistic |
| 18:59.48 | Amarande | probably just gets poached by the governor because he has a hard-line promise not to take out any more loans for the state |
| 18:59.53 | cbreak | well, and sports. pointless stuff |
| 19:00.05 | Amarande | thus, his policy is to poach money from other funds in order to make ends meet where there's shortfalls |
| 19:00.16 | Amarande | it's sure going to be fun to ride on state roads this winter, I'm thinking :| |
| 19:00.25 | nilyaK | :X |
| 19:00.28 | Amarande | seeing as it seems like it's the road fund that usually is the victim of said poaching :P |
| 19:00.48 | Amarande | and you don't really need the road fund much during spring, summer or fall generally |
| 19:00.53 | Amarande | but you REALLY need the road fund in winter :| |
| 19:01.08 | Amarande | between all the snow and the freeze-thaw induced potholes |
| 19:01.32 | Amarande | I'd really rather not see our state roads start to become as high-quality as, say, I-678 :P |
| 19:01.50 | nilyaK | they should just use it to pay me not to go to work, that way I can use the road down my hill as an ice slide and they don't need to fix it. |
| 19:02.32 | Amarande | (I-678 is the road out of Kennedy Airport, I tend to be on it regularly if I take Connecticut Limo to and from JFK. It can be summed up as several minutes of KaBUNKaBUNKaBUNKaBUNK before one gets to a slightly better highway.) |
| 19:03.48 | nilyaK | they're just testing your suspension :P |
| 19:04.05 | cbreak | trains rock |
| 19:04.16 | cbreak | they are more weather resilient :) |
| 19:04.24 | cbreak | (and you can read comics while driving) |
| 19:06.29 | nilyaK | this is very true |
| 19:14.18 | Amarande | cbreak: heh, yeah, this is why whenever possible I take the subway and AirTrain to get to Kennedy |
| 19:14.44 | Amarande | not to mention try not to fly out of LGA because they don't *have* any kind of train connection, only roads |
| 19:15.19 | Amarande | (It's real fun when you have a 6:30 flight out of LGA, and the only reasonably priced transit there is the NYC bus that only runs on that route from 5AM-1AM.) |
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| 19:36.40 | TC-Work | how do you access a file named '\'? |
| 19:36.49 | TC-Work | even -- doesnt seem to want to help |
| 19:37.00 | End_ | quotes doesn't help either? |
| 19:37.06 | TC-Work | nope |
| 19:37.27 | End_ | did you try \\? |
| 19:37.31 | zenzelezz | neither single nor double quotes? |
| 19:37.35 | End_ | where are you trying to access it anyway? |
| 19:37.49 | TC-Work | oh, \\ works |
| 19:38.02 | TC-Work | it's just a file named '\' i was trying to less |
| 19:38.03 | TC-Work | it |
| 19:38.06 | TC-Work | thanks End_ |
| 19:38.36 | End_ | np, I figured it out when I tried to make my own file called \ so I typed \\ and I was like oh |
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| 19:41.33 | zenzelezz | End_: why did you want that file name? |
| 19:45.35 | mikma | oh those mean bastards! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wArmHSPIvlQ&feature=player_embedded |
| 19:47.07 | Lopeppeppy | Why do you name your files impossible things? Is this masochism/sadism for computer geeks? |
| 19:47.45 | zenzelezz | on *nix, very few file names are impossible |
| 19:47.46 | Amarande | Lopeppeppy: I actually ran into that issue when transitioning back from Linux to Windows and now have to re-rip my music collection because of it :| |
| 19:47.53 | Amarande | because, what zenz says |
| 19:48.04 | Amarande | and NTFS itself pretty much doesn't forbid any characters either |
| 19:48.23 | Amarande | therefore, if you have an NTFS formatted external drive (which I do), and back up your stuff from Linux there in preparation for an OS switch |
| 19:48.37 | Lopeppeppy | Crazy people. |
| 19:48.38 | nevcairiel | the only truely forbidden characters are the 0 byte and the slash |
| 19:48.43 | Amarande | and then try to access that drive from Windows, you can very easily end up with files you can't access because they have characters that were okay in Linux but don't work in Windows |
| 19:49.15 | Lopeppeppy | Slash! Exactly! |
| 19:49.25 | Amarande | I thought I had corrupted the drive at first, but then realised that it was a filename character problem |
| 19:49.27 | nevcairiel | not to confuse with the backslash |
| 19:49.34 | bluipodcow | Slash fiction? |
| 19:49.41 | Amarande | of course, I ended up having to reformat the drive anyway in order to eliminate the problem files/directories |
| 19:49.50 | Amarande | since Windows wasn't having anything to do with even deleting the files |
| 19:50.07 | bluipodcow | @mikma next will be the forest gumption VO |
| 19:50.21 | bluipodcow | *gump |
| 19:50.23 | nevcairiel | You can delete any such fles from windows just fine, you just have to go away from explorer and it friends |
| 19:50.33 | Amarande | meanwhile grumbles at AT&T's web site some more |
| 19:50.35 | mikma | bluipodcow: life is like a box of chocolates |
| 19:50.46 | Amarande | I'm trying to sign up for a combination of voice and texting plans that it doesn't seem to want me to do. |
| 19:51.10 | Amarande | I might have to drag myself to the AT&T Store (or, hopefully, Radio Shack will be able to do it) and have the iPhone hawked at me constantly to fix this. :| |
| 19:52.06 | olafski | I've found a great solution for this kind of thing.. never change phone or plan |
| 19:52.41 | Amarande | also: blah, Google Maps really needs to recognise "near here" as a valid search parameter instead of me having to type out my city name every time I'm looking for something local. :| |
| 19:52.59 | nevcairiel | it does |
| 19:53.04 | nevcairiel | if it knows where you are |
| 19:53.37 | Amarande | nev: it does. if I do a search it gives a reasonably close estimate of my location |
| 19:53.47 | Amarande | however, if I do, say, "at&t store near here" it gives me ones in TX. |
| 19:53.52 | Amarande | I'm in ... CT |
| 19:54.14 | bluipodcow | Worse when there's another location with the Same street name |
| 19:54.14 | Amarande | olafski: I didn't used to use the phone as much back in the day, but now I use it quite a lot |
| 19:54.36 | olafski | there'syourproblem.jpg ;-) |
| 19:54.39 | Amarande | so my rollover minutes are almost gone, and I actually do use more than 900 minutes a month, so it will need to be the unlimited plan (since 900 is the maximum for the metered plans) |
| 19:54.44 | Amarande | however, I also text quite a lot |
| 19:54.59 | olafski | o_O |
| 19:55.04 | Amarande | and every time I try to set the unlimited minute plan, it asks me to drop the unlimited texting plan because "there's a conflict" |
| 19:55.07 | olafski | I use up like 75 minutes and 10 texts a month :D |
| 19:55.24 | bluipodcow | U need a better plan |
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| 19:55.48 | Amarande | I'm guessing this is something to do with the fact that the texting plan also includes "Any Mobile to Mobile" on your minute plan, which is redundant with the unlimited minute plan |
| 19:55.51 | Unkle | olafski: Wow. You get/make more calls than I do! |
| 19:56.08 | Amarande | however, I can't seem to get it set via the web. and their live support for rate plans appears to be down. |
| 19:56.15 | olafski | not entirely voluntarily Unkle :( I'd prefer to not use this thing at all :) |
| 19:56.44 | Unkle | olafski: I have so many "roll over" minutes that I'll never, ever, ever use them all. |
| 19:56.50 | Unkle | And I have a shitty little plan. |
| 19:57.00 | Amarande | Unkle: your rollover minutes expire little by little once you have a year's worth of them |
| 19:57.02 | olafski | not sure how much I use on my work phone though.. bit more probably |
| 19:57.13 | olafski | a year's worth of minutes |
| 19:57.22 | olafski | is that like 365 * 24 * 60 minutes? |
| 19:57.22 | Amarande | that's the boat I'm in. I'm almost out of them, and I'm pretty sure now that ALL of my remaining rollover minutes will go poof at the end of this billing period due to the rolling expiration |
| 19:58.24 | olafski | I hate phones.. what do we have email / face to face for :p |
| 19:58.50 | olafski | and apparently soon I will not be able to use my phone of choice for work anymore either, bastards ;p |
| 19:58.57 | Unkle | my phone is mostly a mobile internet access device. |
| 19:59.00 | bluipodcow | Or rocks with bits of paper tied on them |
| 19:59.06 | foxlit | gr, wish battle pets would stack some damn hit rating |
| 19:59.25 | olafski | foxlit: yeah, annoying isn't it.. a miss is so much more noticable on such small health pools / large hits |
| 19:59.40 | olafski | Unkle: oh, my phones can't access the interwebs.. I think |
| 19:59.56 | olafski | one of them appears to have a web browser, not sure |
| 20:00.03 | Unkle | Wow. |
| 20:00.38 | olafski | not much point without a data plan, though perhaps it could access wifi |
| 20:01.35 | olafski | right, time to learn about industrialcraft ;-) |
| 20:02.06 | Unkle | my phone basically is internet access, camera, and entertainment device (some games, lots of music, videos, audio books, and ebooks). I make almost no calls. A few each moth to order a pizza or something. |
| 20:02.47 | olafski | I order those online or make them myself ;-) |
| 20:03.02 | olafski | hmm, that smiley didn't make much sense |
| 20:03.23 | Arrowmaster | Amarande, JB voice search works perfect with "at&t store near here" |
| 20:04.07 | nilyaK | my phone basically is phone calls, and these days text messages, also a Blizzard sms protect device. |
| 20:04.23 | nilyaK | oh and an alarm clock (primary use) |
| 20:05.43 | olafski | hah that's probably what my primary battery drain is too |
| 20:05.49 | olafski | I snooze for 45-60 minutes each morning |
| 20:07.17 | TC-Work | emoticaons never do olafski |
| 20:07.27 | Dagmar | There's a reason rollover minutes expire... and that reason is people like me who got their contract a long time ago and barely used 100 minutes of the 450 each month, and then some damn lawyer went and twisted things up to the point where they actually had a monetary value |
| 20:07.50 | Dagmar | When they started being expirable, I could have been on the phone non-stop for two and a half months. |
| 20:07.52 | TC-Work | they do have a monetary value |
| 20:07.58 | TC-Work | you are not paying for nothing |
| 20:08.13 | Dagmar | Yeah but it makes them into a giant liability on the books. |
| 20:08.30 | Dagmar | If they hadn't fucked with it, we'd still basically have massive piles of free minutes banked up |
| 20:08.49 | TC-Work | that would be why they fucked with it |
| 20:09.00 | Dagmar | Now I can go over by being on the phone for a week straight. Pfft. |
| 20:09.47 | Lopeppeppy | I just run at the max roll-over. I think I spend like... 30 minutes a week on the phone, and that's because my 10 year old niece loooooooves to chatter. And needs homework help. |
| 20:09.49 | Dagmar | I think one of my coworkers with his four-phone plan probably had enough leftover minutes to make a down-payment on a house or buy a small used car outright. |
| 20:12.41 | Amarande | yay, got live chat, they're fixing it |
| 20:13.04 | Amarande | sounds like it's a bug with their website, then |
| 20:13.52 | Amarande | I'm guessing it sees the Any Mobile to Mobile feature as redundant when you try to get unlimited minutes and barfs |
| 20:14.27 | Amarande | Dagmar: Yeah, this is AT&T, they don't like us to not have to pay for things |
| 20:14.46 | Amarande | I've actually heard that they're planning to abolish unlimited minutes and text at some future point as well |
| 20:14.56 | Amarande | mainly, by abolishing the concept of minutes and text altogether |
| 20:15.06 | Dagmar | Might as well |
| 20:15.11 | Dagmar | It doesn't really make much sense |
| 20:15.27 | Amarande | the idea seems to be to make everything be counted as data (i.e., texts as 160 bytes each, calls as VOIP) and thus be subject to the capped data plans |
| 20:15.57 | Dagmar | Well, that would be the sensible thing to do |
| 20:16.08 | Amarande | Heh, except for the whole capped thing. |
| 20:16.23 | Amarande | "I'm sorry honey but I can't talk right now because I'm at my data cap" ... right. :P |
| 20:16.38 | Dagmar | It would make billing a crapton less complex |
| 20:16.43 | Amarande | Not to mention it would probably involve a massive hike in the price of data to compensate for the loss of 40-70 bucks a month for minute plans |
| 20:16.51 | Dagmar | You practically need to hire an accountant to figure out the right billing plan as things stand now |
| 20:17.19 | Amarande | Dagmar: the world doesn't need to cater to people who can't pass Algebra I ... heh |
| 20:17.48 | Dagmar | Try Trig. |
| 20:18.00 | nilyaK | flails around, numbers oh god. |
| 20:18.04 | Amarande | Dagmar: heh, figuring out what billing plan will be cheapest based on usage is pretty much Algebra I, if that |
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| 20:18.43 | Dagmar | I'm pretty sure dealing on the basis of averag usage throws things into trigonometry |
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| 20:19.00 | nilyaK | I'm sure we could turn this into differential equations if we wanted to. |
| 20:19.21 | Dagmar | If you're getting a multi-phone family plan it's just hilarious to read through |
| 20:20.28 | Amarande | Yeah, I guess you can probably find a way to bring calculus into it. |
| 20:21.04 | Amarande | But yeah, the all-data thing sounds like it will be murder on people's bills. |
| 20:21.16 | Amarande | One, no more unlimited, so if you really do use the phone a lot, you're going to have to learn to love your landline again. |
| 20:21.45 | nilyaK | loves her landline, it has a rotaty dial and a nice analog bell. |
| 20:21.47 | Amarande | Two, if you actually end up using a fair amount of DATA (as the future is pushing more and more), you're going to get shredded |
| 20:21.53 | Dagmar | Frankly I think they should just stop screwing around, start flipping things to VoiP and IPv6, and bill by 90th percentile. |
| 20:22.05 | Dagmar | Let the people who are on the phone too damn much pay giant bills |
| 20:22.06 | Amarande | because, like I said, in order to make up for the fact that, well, consider this |
| 20:22.26 | Amarande | If you have an unlimited minute plan and unlimited texting plan, that's $90 between the two. The 2GB data plan is only $25 meanwhile. |
| 20:22.38 | Dagmar | At some poing they're going to wake up and realize how much money they're wasting on nitpicking every damn minute you're on the phone |
| 20:22.40 | Amarande | To make up for this, they would have to make the 2GB data plan $100 or so. |
| 20:24.12 | Dagmar | Isn't that what some carriers are charging already? "Unlimited" with a 2Gb cap for $90/month |
| 20:24.32 | Amarande | Dagmar: we're talking about a combination of text, voice, and data for $90 though |
| 20:25.01 | Amarande | if it went ALL data, they would lose the fees that corresponded to text and voice minutes, and have to soar data charges through the roof (we're talking hundreds of percent inflation here) in order to make up for the lost bill revenue |
| 20:25.24 | Amarande | Given that the lion's share of one's phone bill is usually the voice+text, not the data plan? |
| 20:25.31 | Dagmar | This would not represent an overall increase in the bill beyond the usual |
| 20:25.33 | *** join/#wowuidev Liath (~Liath@unaffiliated/liath) |
| 20:25.48 | Amarande | It sounds like the perfect thing to kill the modern mobile digital world in the cradle. |
| 20:26.05 | Amarande | Dagmar: except when they have to price the data plans and their overages, if they're the only plan |
| 20:26.31 | Amarande | It makes doing any sort of data usage brutally expensive because that data usage has to be priced based on "they could get the equivalent to those minutes that we used to charge $X a month for using that data" |
| 20:26.39 | Dagmar | ISPs and packet carriers figured out this is all entirely too much trouble over a decade ago |
| 20:28.00 | Amarande | Given that VOIP uses surprisingly low bandwidth? |
| 20:28.14 | Amarande | I think it's something like ... 30 MB an hour, or something like that was an estimate I read |
| 20:28.14 | Dagmar | we're rapidly approaching the point where the phone has enough power to do QoS, negotiate billing rates on the fly, and generally stop screwing around with counting "minutes" as anything special |
| 20:28.22 | Dagmar | Have you done any wardriving lately? |
| 20:28.29 | nilyaK | which characters can I not send in a chat message (not an addon message) as in which will not get sent or disconnect me? I assume i can't send nulls, anything else? |
| 20:28.32 | Amarande | Dagmar: I'm thinking from the standpoint of the business, which will result in ruinous data costs |
| 20:28.53 | Dagmar | We are about ten years or less away from phones being able to negotiate with yer various access points in exchange for transit |
| 20:28.55 | Amarande | Let's put it this way. You only use maybe half a meg a minute for a VOIP call. |
| 20:29.24 | Amarande | That means each gigabyte of data usage is a whopping 2,048 minutes of VOIP, if that's all you do with it. |
| 20:29.50 | Dagmar | Amarande: What you're saying is that they'll have to start charging based on what volume of network traffic people _use_ rather than shystering everyone into buying plans larger than they needed because they're terrified of overage charges |
| 20:29.50 | Amarande | Now consider what they're charging for minute plans, and know that they can and will look to recoup the amount of costs that the minute plans used to go for by boosting the price of the data plans accordingly. |
| 20:30.10 | Nimhfree | an aanalog voice signal is only a 4K signal |
| 20:30.17 | Amarande | Dagmar: what I'm saying is that I, for instance, use only a couple hundred megs or so of my 2GB data plan most months |
| 20:30.21 | Nimhfree | therefore, digitizing it for VOIP should be REALLY small |
| 20:30.25 | nilyaK | http://www.wowpedia.org/ValidChatMessageCharacters |
| 20:30.26 | nilyaK | found it |
| 20:30.35 | Amarande | Whereas I use enough minutes of voice to make the unlimited minute plan worthwhile |
| 20:30.44 | Dagmar | Very, very few LECs compress analog voice down to 4k. |
| 20:30.48 | Dagmar | That sounds horrible. |
| 20:31.07 | Amarande | What this means, then, is that I probably use a gig or so of total data per month, counting what the voice minutes and text translate to in data. |
| 20:31.09 | Dagmar | The lowest you're going to find on a land-line is 16k in some places. |
| 20:31.15 | Amarande | Probably NOT EVEN a gig. |
| 20:31.35 | Dagmar | Amarande: OKay so basically, you're not using their network very much. Why on earth should you be paying a ton? |
| 20:32.01 | Amarande | Well, see, here's how it is - that means I'm paying (as of next week) $125 or so a month for what comes down to less than a gig's worth of actual data. |
| 20:32.11 | Dagmar | Yes, so you're getting fucked now. |
| 20:32.23 | Dagmar | You will just be getting fucked from a slightly different angle. |
| 20:32.23 | Amarande | Which seems like a lot. However, there's a dark side to that lot, which will come up if they move to plans being entirely data based. |
| 20:32.44 | Amarande | What that means is that instead of paying $25 a month for the 2GB data feature? |
| 20:33.04 | Amarande | They'd be entirely justified, in terms of revenue retention, in charging you a whopping $250 a month for it, then. |
| 20:33.06 | Dagmar | Unless they really cock it up you will wind up paying less |
| 20:33.17 | Amarande | After all, right now they make $125 a month off of a person like me for 1GB. |
| 20:33.33 | Amarande | What I'm saying is they'll want to KEEP making $125 a month off of a person like me who uses about 1GB of the network. |
| 20:33.44 | mckenziemc | charges Amarande per IRC message. |
| 20:34.17 | Amarande | And with how little bandwidth voice uses, they'll either need to switch to some stupidly inefficient HD audio algorithm for the calls to swell the amount of bandwidth a minute of talk takes, or they'll have to make a gigabyte insanely expensive in order to keep revenues what they are. |
| 20:34.34 | Dagmar | Amarande: Yes, and if they start going on a pure per-byte charge system, they will fuck each other. |
| 20:34.46 | Amarande | And while we're on the algorithm, that's another thing that people are concerned about. |
| 20:34.53 | Dagmar | There will be a rather quick degradation to a pure price war state |
| 20:35.22 | Amarande | Whether, if they have issues with the data-only paradigm not bringing in enough revenue, they'll increase bills by tuning the VOIP compression algorithm to be less efficient so that you use more data for the same call. |
| 20:35.36 | Dagmar | Right now the things keeping US carriers from falling into that are vendor lock-in, subsidization with custom hardware that's non-portable, and completely arbitrary billing plans that aren't a good fit for 80% of the people using them |
| 20:35.47 | Dagmar | You cant even easily compare plans between networks. |
| 20:35.57 | Amarande | Well, the billing plan is certainly a fit for me. |
| 20:36.06 | Dagmar | However... on a dollars-per-kilobyte basis, things will get really easy |
| 20:36.17 | Amarande | Especially since the unlimited plan costs only $10/month more than the 900 minute plan, and I use about ... 1400-1500 or so anytime minutes a month I think it is lately |
| 20:36.56 | Amarande | And I text often enough that it would be well over $20 worth of a la carte charges if I didn't have the plan. |
| 20:37.26 | Amarande | The only thing I could downgrade would be the data plan, from 2GB to 300MB. And while I usually don't even use 300MB, it would save me only five bucks a month to do it. |
| 20:37.44 | Dagmar | Imagine if you could say... "Hmm... Verizon is charging .834 cents per kilobyte, and AT&T is charging .821 cents per kilobyte. GOsh AT&T is cheaper" |
| 20:38.40 | Amarande | But yeah, can you imagine that if voice was VOIP based on metered data plans, there would be insane pressure on the sysadmins to tune the VOIP compression in order to get a desired average monthly bill? |
| 20:38.52 | Amarande | You can't really tune the cost per gig - that's too visible. |
| 20:38.53 | Dagmar | If they don't do something along the lines of serious QoS there's not going to be any way to keep it from being utterly transparent as to whose rates are really cheaper |
| 20:38.56 | Arrowmaster | you mean "Verizon is charging 0.02 cents per kilobyte" |
| 20:39.05 | Arrowmaster | if you get the reference |
| 20:39.14 | Amarande | But you could easily cause people to use more giggage just by transparently making their VOIP compression less efficient so they have to use more data for the same call. |
| 20:39.31 | Dagmar | Good luck reaching out and putting weak compression into people's phones |
| 20:39.48 | Arrowmaster | i thought lte advanced was pure data, all voice would be transfered as data |
| 20:40.20 | Amarande | Arrow: voice already is transferred as data |
| 20:40.27 | Amarande | which is the technical rationale for the idea of changing plans like that |
| 20:40.44 | Dagmar | It's *all* data on cellphone networks now |
| 20:40.49 | Amarande | the thoughts are about the billing effect of no longer separately counting voice minutes from data usage |
| 20:41.01 | Dagmar | There's been no analog transmissions there for about ten years as far as most people are concerned. |
| 20:41.13 | Arrowmaster | i thought on at least att, voice was transfered over 2g gsm only |
| 20:41.19 | Amarande | particularly where the first is available on unlimited plans (and most cell companies have pared down their plan offerings so that you only have the choice between piss-poor minutes a month and "unlimited"), and the second is always capped |
| 20:41.27 | Dagmar | This area is almost retarded about progress and they turned off the last analog tower here about eight years ago, so the three people in the city still using bag phones had to buy new ones |
| 20:41.57 | Dagmar | SMS and voice share the same comms channel. SMS is just already flagged as the lowest priority packets. |
| 20:42.03 | Amarande | basically, the fact of the matter is, most people are used to having unlimited domestic minutes |
| 20:42.25 | Amarande | Barely any phone companies charge long distance anymore (if any of them even do) on landlines, people are used to being able to gab without limit on a landline. |
| 20:42.27 | Dagmar | It doesn't require contiguity like a voice call, which is why the network can be fucked for making a voice call, and you can still get SMS messages through (although with high latency) |
| 20:42.59 | Dagmar | Amarande: Yeah, peering agreements made that happen. The telcos had to get over the whining and just do it. |
| 20:43.08 | Amarande | Meanwhile, cell companies make it quite often really not worth it to get the metered minute plan unless you really don't use the phone very much at all. |
| 20:43.26 | Dagmar | ...because they're already fucking you with three dicks on the price. |
| 20:43.34 | Amarande | Which means that people are more likely than not on the unlimited plan (especially since now, for instance, AT&T doesn't offer any minute packages beyond 900 unless you need the "With Canada" service for significantly more money). |
| 20:44.14 | Amarande | Basically, thus, most people are well past the idea of watching how much time they spend on the phone. |
| 20:44.16 | Dagmar | "Long distance" calls used to require very anal and detailed arrangements between RBOCs. |
| 20:44.42 | Dagmar | Just managing the day-to-day on that is part of the reason LD calls were genuinely more expensive |
| 20:44.53 | Dagmar | Now, it no longer matters on most pure data networks. |
| 20:44.55 | Amarande | Dagmar: except that long distance charges tended to be levied even within the bounds of areas that were wholly within one phone company |
| 20:44.55 | *** join/#wowuidev AcidWeb (quassel@vulturis.eu) |
| 20:45.11 | Amarande | For instance, Connecticut was basically all SNET before that became part of AT&T again |
| 20:45.15 | Dagmar | Amarande: That's legacy crap from when someone had to plug in a 1/4" jack somewhere |
| 20:45.23 | Dagmar | I used to have to pay long distance to call the next county |
| 20:45.30 | Amarande | However, even though the entire state was pretty much SNET, if you called more than one town away, you got charged for LD. |
| 20:45.51 | Dagmar | THat *finally* went away around 1988, which let me call the next county without it being long distance |
| 20:46.18 | Dagmar | ...by 1993 we could call each surrounding county as a local call |
| 20:46.36 | Amarande | Heh. I think they were still doing that in CT on AT&T until the mid-2000s, since one of the chief reasons we switched to cable phone was because my brother spent so much time on the phone with his gf racking up phone charges |
| 20:46.50 | Dagmar | It took them a while to realize that they were just wasting money even doing the accounting on that |
| 20:48.11 | Amarande | Yeah, it would cost the phone company a lot less to unify everything, most likely. |
| 20:48.14 | Amarande | Except for that one bugaboo. |
| 20:48.24 | Amarande | The fact that it would cost the phone company a TREMENDOUS amount to unify everything, most likely. |
| 20:48.37 | Amarande | due to the fact that bills would plummet without the ability to charge separately for phone and SMS. |
| 20:48.52 | Amarande | and, again, like I'm saying, you don't think they're going to skyrocket the data charges to make up for it? |
| 20:48.56 | Dagmar | Huge amoutns of the cost is just figuring out how to bill you |
| 20:49.36 | Amarande | And they know quite well that most people use a lot more minutes than they do data, so the data charges will presumably be geared so that an X gig data plan is somehow related to how much money they used to make selling the equivalent number of minutes of voice. |
| 20:49.53 | Amarande | Which ... is not good for your bill. At all. Particularly when you consider that the conversion's about 2000 minutes per gig. |
| 20:50.25 | Dagmar | I think we'll see changes of this order being rolled out in some test markets first, while they figure out how to come up with a rate per byte |
| 20:50.56 | Dagmar | There's no reason to try to make everyone's bill onerously more expensive, otherwise the first network to try that will go bankrupt |
| 20:51.27 | Dagmar | If they can't sell it to consumers as a way to save money based on the fact that you don't really use the phone all that damn much, people will avoid 'em like the plague |
| 20:51.30 | Amarande | Well, basically, it would probably even be cheaper for those of us who usually use mostly voice and text |
| 20:51.39 | Amarande | *except*, once they get us used to that |
| 20:51.58 | Dagmar | Voice tends to be heavier than say, Slashdot |
| 20:52.15 | Amarande | then it could well be absolute murder on the digital mobile world, because data usage would have to be treated as a rare and precious thing due to the likely rates |
| 20:52.33 | Dagmar | It's more likely that people will realize it's freaking cheap |
| 20:52.49 | Dagmar | ...and without complex QoS muddying the waters, the Great Cellular Price War will begin in earnest |
| 20:53.23 | Amarande | Are you downloading that app? It's about 10 megs? Expect those 10 megs to cost as much as 20 voice minutes would. Tack on another two dollars average to your phone bill for that, plus the app cost. |
| 20:53.27 | Dagmar | There are a few things in the tech industry that at various points in time have been making murderous profits, until competition happened and things started developing quickly. |
| 20:53.35 | Dagmar | In 1994, for example, RAM was more expensive than gold. |
| 20:53.56 | Amarande | Actually, QoS and congestion handling is another issue with the all-data thing. |
| 20:54.13 | Dagmar | You could go into an office at night with a screwdriver, loot a bunch of desktops of half their sticks of RAM, and walk out with $90,000 in ram in a fucking sandwich bag in your from jacket pocket. |
| 20:54.26 | Dagmar | People actually *did* this. It freaked the police out. |
| 20:54.46 | Amarande | Presently, assuming you haven't already decided to get the unlimited minute plan, a big premium is placed on having your long conversations in the evening, because your minutes in the evening are usually significantly higher or even unlimited. |
| 20:55.04 | Dagmar | At the moment, in bulk you can jsut about have strippers bring you DAT tapes for cheaper than you can get data over a cell plan |
| 20:55.16 | Dagmar | Kilobytes over the air are *massive* profit |
| 20:55.18 | Amarande | Day minutes are meanwhile considered precious things to be husbanded (unless you're on the unlimited plan). |
| 20:55.26 | Dagmar | Especially "data" kilobytes. |
| 20:55.40 | Amarande | With an all-data plan though, how does that pan out? They need to worry about congestion, and with everything considered data, customer habits are going to be a double whammy there. |
| 20:55.51 | Dagmar | It doesn't strike you as odd that there's no special rate for data during the day and data at night? |
| 20:55.57 | Amarande | Congestion is at its heaviest in the evening. |
| 20:56.02 | Dagmar | REmember, it's _all_ data packets as far as teh phone nerwork is conerned |
| 20:56.35 | Dagmar | The reason is you're paying a crapload more for the data traffic than the voice traffic |
| 20:57.20 | Dagmar | With congestion, cell networks can ratchet you back to 4K, but 8K is as close as most will get (because 4K sounds like shit) |
| 20:57.39 | Amarande | What I read though is that presently, the cell network is partitioned, even though it's all actually data |
| 20:57.59 | Amarande | A certain amount of the network is set aside just for voice, to minimise the effect of congested evening data usage on voice calls |
| 21:00.01 | Amarande | However, there's still also the social issue. |
| 21:00.19 | Amarande | All-data billing means that people will have to go back to the olden days where you had to watch how long you spent on the phone. |
| 21:00.33 | Dagmar | Yes, data is prioritized lower than voice, and SMS is prioritized at the bottom |
| 21:00.58 | Dagmar | You have to do that _now_ |
| 21:01.05 | Amarande | Doubly so, as well. Back in the day, if you had a long distance call, you could choose who footed the bill. Now both sides would have to do that. |
| 21:01.14 | znf | looks around |
| 21:01.16 | znf | hmmmm |
| 21:01.19 | znf | goes back into hiding |
| 21:01.21 | Dagmar | the only reason people "don't" is that they've pre-negotiated for a rate that assumes they'll use less than they are going to use |
| 21:01.34 | Dagmar | Almost by definition, you are already paying for more than you use. |
| 21:01.58 | Dagmar | ....so if you went to actually paying for what you _are_ using, you will either be paying less, or your cellco is about to go bankrupt |
| 21:02.28 | Amarande | Well, yeah, you're paying for more than you use when you have any sort of unlimited plan. |
| 21:03.07 | Amarande | Unless you're somehow using 43,200 minutes a month on the phone. :) |
| 21:03.22 | Dagmar | Virtually no one pays for overages more than a couple of times without ratcheting up their plan to the next tier |
| 21:03.26 | Dagmar | Overages are insane |
| 21:03.33 | Amarande | Yeah, that's the thing. |
| 21:04.00 | Amarande | You pay overages (or realise you're going to be paying overages soon if you don't ratchet up your plan because your old rollover minutes are running out), so you ratchet up your plan. |
| 21:04.09 | znf | I don't pay for either. I pirate everything. |
| 21:04.14 | Dagmar | Yep, and then you leave it there. |
| 21:04.19 | Amarande | Since most companies only offer "small number of minutes with overages" or "unlimited" |
| 21:04.32 | Amarande | You presumably end up on the unlimited plan. Now you never need to worry about overages on the phone again. |
| 21:04.43 | Dagmar | But either way, people are currently merrily paying not only too much for their phones, but they're also paying for a chunk of network access they never intend to use |
| 21:05.02 | Amarande | Unless, the cell company puts you on a unified "it's all data" plan, at which point you have NO choice but "limited minutes with overages" because there are no non-capped data plans available. |
| 21:05.39 | Dagmar | I think that might well change |
| 21:06.00 | Amarande | Meanwhile, the data plans are going to rise in price at least some in order to make up for the fact that there's two plans they can't sell you, because they used to sell three plans in a bundle and then they move to selling only one. |
| 21:06.13 | Dagmar | For people who had the "unlimited" plans before, there will probably be an option to do percentile billing |
| 21:06.35 | Amarande | Which gives you an incentive to check your usage and see if you are really using anywhere near what you're paying for. |
| 21:06.41 | Dagmar | Crazy people here. There's a test server that has somehow been down all day, and they choose 4pm to tell me |
| 21:07.33 | Amarande | So you reduce your data plan to lower your cost. Except ... well really, you can't. |
| 21:07.54 | Amarande | because the data plan tiers are usually "way more than you'll ever use" or "you might actually bump up against this - especially if your talk minutes are going towards it too" |
| 21:08.17 | Amarande | Oh, yeah, not to mention this thing I just thought of: |
| 21:08.40 | Amarande | Contract cell phone companies, by and large, tend to be the only ones not to offer unlimited data. Prepaid providers like Virgin generally offer unlimited data as part of even the lowest minute plan. |
| 21:08.44 | znf | You're both americans, aren't you? |
| 21:08.59 | Dagmar | Yes. This is why we're getting fucked by cellcos. |
| 21:09.10 | Amarande | Counting everything as data creates a huge premium on unlimited data plans - which then encourages a mass exodus of customers from the contract companies (who are the ones considering making this switch) |
| 21:09.19 | znf | Yup, you're getting screwed so much. |
| 21:09.24 | Dagmar | Im trying to convince him that an all-data system will introduce precious competiton which means that prices will come down |
| 21:09.37 | znf | Heh, even getting "charged" (or, rather: minutes getting deducted out of your plans) for incoming calls |
| 21:09.43 | znf | That's the most silly thing I ever heard :P |
| 21:09.49 | Amarande | Essentially, then AT&T and Verizon would have to go *back* to unlimited data in order to compete with Virgin and the like |
| 21:10.05 | Dagmar | ...and that part of the problem is that we're already getting fucked pretty hard now. They literally can't fuck us any harder without the first company that adopts such a thing tanking and tanking hard as all their customers run away |
| 21:10.07 | Amarande | Except that apparently there's a technical reason for not offering unlimited data ... network capacity. |
| 21:10.22 | Dagmar | Amarande: That there is where QoS and 90th percentile billing come in handy |
| 21:10.49 | zenzelezz | I really enjoy the W3Techs twitter user |
| 21:11.05 | zenzelezz | so much useless but interesting trivia |
| 21:11.31 | *** join/#wowuidev A-KO (as@2601:a:f00:1f:cd1e:4735:bb53:cd08) |
| 21:11.31 | *** join/#wowuidev A-KO (as@unaffiliated/a-ko) |
| 21:13.37 | nilyaK | enjoys NickJS, GFraizer, and pre-wow forum antics. |
| 21:15.51 | Dagmar | Amarande: Now what I said earlier about phones being able to negotiate rates on the fly |
| 21:15.57 | Dagmar | Let's say you wanted a *really* cheap plan |
| 21:16.20 | Dagmar | You could tell your phone to just not make the calls, or to warn you if currently demand is super-high and the network is nearly saturated |
| 21:16.51 | Dagmar | ...or to warn you if the network becomes near-to-saturated and it needs to bid higher to win priority |
| 21:17.01 | Dagmar | ...because IPv6 QoS is cool like that. |
| 21:17.45 | Dagmar | You could set a fixed cost ceiling and let your phone ramp the lossy compression up or down depending on how close you are to that threshold |
| 21:19.00 | *** join/#wowuidev Cairenn (~Owner@CPE00222da11570-CM00222da1156d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 21:19.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Cairenn (~Owner@MMOI/Administratrix/Cairenn) |
| 21:19.04 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Cairenn] by ChanServ |
| 21:20.58 | Torhal|work | changes znf for "over-breathing". |
| 21:21.52 | mckenziemc | breaths on Torhal|work. |
| 21:21.54 | mckenziemc | breathes* |
| 21:22.07 | Torhal|work | installs charcoal filters in mckenziemc's lungs. |
| 21:22.29 | nilyaK | charges the US for overeating. |
| 21:22.50 | Torhal|work | Uneducated Slobs? What? |
| 21:22.59 | Torhal|work | peers uncertainly at nilyaK. |
| 21:23.43 | nilyaK | licks Torhal. |
| 21:24.27 | Torhal|work | Ok, I _was_ peering. Now I'm all o.O |
| 21:28.28 | Nimhfree | is there a recommended way to present a message to the middle of the screen that lasts a few seconds before fading out? |
| 21:28.36 | mckenziemc | ooh can i try? |
| 21:28.40 | mckenziemc | licks Torhal. |
| 21:29.00 | Torhal|work | Nimhfree: Not necessarily in the center of the screen, but I have LibToast-1.0 |
| 21:29.01 | Torhal|work | :D |
| 21:29.49 | zenzelezz | doubt it'd be a good idea, but there's something like UIErrorFrame, isn't there? |
| 21:29.51 | foxlit | UIErrorsFrame:AddMessage("Messages suck!") |
| 21:29.54 | Nimhfree | the problem is I normally print to the default chat message frame but certain messages are not appearing in an OnLoad (and it seems Prat might be the culprit for eating them) |
| 21:29.58 | Torhal|work | extradites mckenziemc to Siberia. |
| 21:30.08 | zenzelezz | on my screen I was a moment before foxlit |
| 21:30.22 | Unkle | Or use the BossWarningFrame |
| 21:30.23 | zenzelezz | cause it totally matters |
| 21:31.11 | nilyaK | mine too. |
| 21:35.07 | Fisker | hey Dagmar |
| 21:35.50 | Fisker | why you hate? |
| 21:38.30 | Unkle | My hate has made me powerful. *uses force lightning* |
| 21:38.44 | TC-Work | Something is rather wrong when IE 8 is working better than an up to date chrome. |
| 21:38.54 | mckenziemc | o.o |
| 21:39.37 | Fisker | it isn't TC-Work |
| 21:39.39 | Fisker | don't be absurd |
| 21:42.14 | TC-Work | Fisker: then prove me wrongf |
| 21:42.23 | TC-Work | s/gf/g/ |
| 21:48.29 | TC-Work | Fisker |
| 21:48.31 | TC-Work | Fisker |
| 21:50.16 | *** join/#wowuidev arton (~arton@tx-184-6-176-223.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) |
| 21:51.25 | *** topic/#wowuidev by Cairenn -> http://pastebin.com || 4.3.x ToC: 40300 || #WoWUIDev-commits: CIA & JIRA bots reporting || MoP Beta UI/API Changes forum: http://bit.ly/GMjEVC. Feel free to post what you find! || Battletags: http://goo.gl/2bm7n || MoP Beta Keys! http://bit.ly/MNsc0R or http://bit.ly/LNg7Yk || Happy Birthday Mrs. Ackis! |
| 21:57.42 | TC-Work | I think for Mrs. Ackis's bithday we should give her a day away from Mr. Ackis |
| 21:57.48 | Adys_ | "I love Twitter, and I’ve built a business around making sense of Twitter data. I am concerned by the recent “ominous” signs that Twitter may be heading down a path towards becoming a closed platform" |
| 21:57.49 | TC-Work | birthday* |
| 21:57.50 | Adys_ | Urgh |
| 21:58.16 | Adys | take dumb and make it dumber |
| 21:58.55 | Adys | if you build a business around another business, you're on your own god damn it |
| 21:59.26 | *** join/#wowuidev Sixen (~Sixen@173-25-23-124.client.mchsi.com) |
| 21:59.28 | Amarande | Adys: heh, so every company that makes use of SaaS offerings is "on their own"? |
| 21:59.43 | Adys | Amarande: selling a service and providing an API are two completely different things |
| 22:00.22 | Adys | if you *buy* a service, such as amazon EC2/S3 offerings or whatever, you're in a legal contract |
| 22:00.46 | Adys | if you build a business around it, the company you buy the service from is liable if it fails to provide the service |
| 22:01.05 | Adys | and if it does, you're not a cretin and you haven't built your company around that anyway |
| 22:01.13 | Adys | you can switch to another service |
| 22:01.18 | Amarande | Adys: okay, how about all the institutions and businesses that make use of Google Docs and the such? |
| 22:01.26 | Adys | its the same thing |
| 22:01.34 | Adys | google apps is a service being sold |
| 22:01.40 | Adys | if you rely on the free one, you're on your own |
| 22:01.48 | Adys | if you buy it, google's liable |
| 22:02.13 | Amarande | Although really, especially in the US, IPR is a major problem in that regard |
| 22:02.16 | Adys | but if you build a business around, for example as is the context of my paste, "making sense of twitter data" |
| 22:02.21 | Adys | you're on your fucking own |
| 22:02.39 | Amarande | In many cases, the only option is to build one's business around another company's service because IPR law (patents, especially) prohibit you from making your own similar platform in order to be independent of them |
| 22:02.44 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v nicoli_s] by ChanServ |
| 22:02.47 | Adys | and anyone in this channel should know if they rely on addons for income or anything like that |
| 22:03.26 | Amarande | This is considered a core part and parcel of the economy though, because the US apparently feels that a necessary part of economic survival comes from allowing individual entities to be the sole purveyors of a given technological cog |
| 22:03.47 | Amarande | Exclusivity seems to be seen as a core economy builder rather than a limitation |
| 22:03.57 | Unkle | If your business is analyzing twitter content, and twitter blocks you from grabbing the content, chances are you didn't think your model through very carefully. |
| 22:04.07 | Adys | exactly |
| 22:04.20 | Amarande | And it causes all kinds of havoc. |
| 22:04.37 | Amarande | Hell, look at the chaos the Wi-Fi industry suffered because CSIRO demanded payment |
| 22:05.06 | Adys | my point is, you can badmouth the company all you want for doing it |
| 22:05.21 | Adys | but you should have known what you were getting into |
| 22:05.46 | Adys | crying over it instead of having a serious sit-down with whoever managed this disaster of a business model is useless |
| 22:06.22 | Amarande | Of course, the CSIRO case deserves special ire, because pretty much the entire Wi-Fi platform is prisoner of their patent, and it also is apparently quite likely the reason why some devices don't support a properly secure Wi-Fi network |
| 22:07.02 | Amarande | some devices' wifi depends on reducing yourself to TKIP, or worse WEP, and it's thought part of it was because manufacturers didn't want to licence additional patents to be able to use WPA2-AES like any sane man should |
| 22:08.40 | Adys | god damn it, I just found out who dies in the next burn notice =/ |
| 22:09.04 | mckenziemc | >.> |
| 22:09.34 | Unkle | NO SPOILERS |
| 22:09.42 | Adys | no spoilers |
| 22:10.13 | Adys | USAN did a great fucking job there |
| 22:10.26 | Amarande | Adys: but yeah, it pretty much comes down to in the US, technologies tend to be locked up tight in patents (if they're not, then in today's fast moving tech world they're probably hopelessly obsolete, since 20 years in tech is an aeon now) |
| 22:10.36 | olafski | I bet it's that maybe-CIA-maybe-badguy that they keep bringing back |
| 22:10.36 | Unkle | I only tune in moments before the show's air time. |
| 22:10.42 | olafski | haven't seen him for a while :P |
| 22:10.51 | Amarande | which means that if you want to make use of a certain *type* of technology, you're usually nailed down to whatever terms the one company that pioneered it is willing to licence under |
| 22:10.58 | olafski | also I was kinda sad with last week's Suits :( |
| 22:11.05 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraps (~chatzilla@pool-96-238-106-223.pghkny.east.verizon.net) |
| 22:11.37 | Adys | olafski: about the girl? |
| 22:12.15 | Unkle | I wish IN Plain Sight handn't ended. ;/ |
| 22:12.42 | Adys | thats the only one i really never liked |
| 22:12.56 | olafski | Adys: yeah.. I sort of expected it would have some kind of happy ending |
| 22:13.02 | olafski | harvey protecting her or something |
| 22:13.06 | Adys | olafski: aye |
| 22:13.30 | Adys | holy shit, I have a breaking bad episode to watch |
| 22:13.31 | Adys | afk 40 minutes |
| 22:13.39 | olafski | hf :) |
| 22:13.44 | Unkle | Burn Notice, In Plain Sight, and Castle are/were pretty much the only reason I kept my TV package. |
| 22:13.49 | Amarande | Hmmm. I begin to wonder if the designers of DA:O played WoW a lot. :) |
| 22:14.05 | Amarande | I'm just noting that Orzammar sounds a lot like Orgrimmar, and the place itself looks quite a lot like Ironforge |
| 22:14.15 | olafski | I only keep my tv package because it comes with my internet package.. |
| 22:15.06 | olafski | and I guess the 24 kitchen channel is kinda nice :) |
| 22:16.09 | Unkle | I could cancel the TV package and keep my internet package, but… |
| 22:17.05 | olafski | no dice here, you can only get cable internet if you also get cable tv |
| 22:18.28 | olafski | right, nn :] |
| 22:18.47 | *** join/#wowuidev Caleb| (~caleb@5400A725.dsl.pool.telekom.hu) |
| 22:24.20 | TC-Work | Unkle: Why TV when you can internet? |
| 22:24.45 | Unkle | TC not everything I want is on the internet instantly. |
| 22:26.13 | Unkle | "A [petbattle] macro conditional will be in an upcoming beta build." |
| 22:27.11 | TC-Work | Unkle: Point. I tend to watch shows a season at a time so thats not an issue for me. |
| 22:28.12 | Unkle | TC-Work: I do the same, but I know that ratings/ad sales drive creation of new shows (or subscribtions for things like HBO) so if I love something I try to watch it as close to real-time. Otherwise… Gimme a season at a time. |
| 22:28.51 | TC-Work | cant you get HBO subs online now? |
| 22:29.17 | Unkle | You have to have a cable sub that includes HBO to use their HBO ToGo service. |
| 22:29.41 | Amarande | Yeah, and there's no Game of Thrones on Netflix. :| |
| 22:29.56 | Unkle | My cable package doesn't include HBO 'cause I'm cheap. So I'll buy GoT and Homeland when my budget allows. |
| 22:30.31 | Unkle | Because Homeland has some of the most powerful acting I've ever seen. |
| 22:32.55 | znf | or just pirate it like everyone else |
| 22:33.28 | znf | Like this: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones |
| 22:33.29 | znf | ^^ |
| 22:33.44 | Unkle | I've had that discussion here more times than I care to think about. I don't do that. I make a living in part based on my intellectual properties. I try to respect the right of others to do the same. |
| 22:34.39 | mckenziemc | Augustus Ceaser has completed the Manhattan Project o.o |
| 22:35.09 | znf | Ok, have fun. |
| 22:39.00 | Unkle | mckenziemc: So… you're just waiting for "Sensors dectect nuclear detonation near <your city name>" and the UN ganging up on you? |
| 22:41.25 | mckenziemc | whu? |
| 22:42.33 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraps (~chatzilla@pool-96-238-106-223.pghkny.east.verizon.net) |
| 22:42.38 | TC-Work | .. play moar civ mckenziemc |
| 22:42.40 | Unkle | CIV II and CIV III the UN would gang up on you after someone else got the upper hand militarily - usually by having nules first. |
| 22:42.53 | Unkle | All the votes would go against you. |
| 22:43.34 | *** join/#wowuidev Kodiack (~Colton@96-42-240-206.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com) |
| 22:47.54 | znf | I'd just blow the UN |
| 22:49.05 | Kraps | hot |
| 22:51.38 | Amarande | Unkle: well, that sounds like Civ |
| 22:51.50 | Amarande | the computer players all act as a team against you no matter what, don't they? :) |
| 22:52.50 | Kraps | yes |
| 22:53.04 | Kraps | because i would attack them all |
| 22:54.10 | Unkle | Amarande: Not until it is either clear that you're dominating in some other way or one of them has a commanding military lead. |
| 22:54.41 | Kraps | i've only played civ:call to power for any length and i sucked at it so yeah |
| 22:55.03 | Unkle | I still lose entire weekends to Civ. |
| 22:55.20 | Unkle | Like, "wha? Monday? When did this happen? |
| 23:00.37 | Amarande | hrm |
| 23:00.47 | Amarande | to continue leveling or to go back to Felwood and do this chain for a cloak for my mog set ... |
| 23:00.51 | Amarande | damn you, mog |
| 23:06.34 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraps (~chatzilla@pool-96-238-106-223.pghkny.east.verizon.net) |
| 23:36.54 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraps_ipod (~rooms@pool-96-238-106-223.pghkny.east.verizon.net) |
| 23:40.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Monolit (~Strigoy@89.112.4.92.pppoe.eltel.net) |
| 23:44.16 | *** join/#wowuidev fleshmelt (~fleshmelt@ip70-178-26-162.ks.ks.cox.net) |
| 23:44.47 | F16Gaming | ah of course, everything is so straight forward... http://i.imgur.com/yfvjC.png |
| 23:45.51 | Mr_Rabies | sounds like someone needs to get applocale for their visual novels |
| 23:46.09 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraps (~chatzilla@pool-96-238-106-223.pghkny.east.verizon.net) |
| 23:47.02 | Mr_Rabies | F16Gaming: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppLocale |
| 23:47.08 | F16Gaming | Mr_Rabies: patching touhou game |
| 23:48.58 | fleshmelt | just starting to learn to program AddOns. Does anyone here do this using Linux? Is there an IDE that would be helpful for this? |
| 23:51.24 | mikma | no. |
| 23:51.40 | mikma | and no. |
| 23:52.04 | mikma | oh wait! yes, and no. |
| 23:52.35 | mikma | afaik haste codes in linux and plays with wine / somefuck |
| 23:53.08 | fleshmelt | At least I know I'm not the first to try it |
| 23:53.58 | A-KO | really it's just XML and Lua, so you can reasonably get syntax checking and whatnot, but no true IDE afaik. |
| 23:57.17 | Unkle | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:57.25 | Unkle | wow. Syntax. |
| 23:58.07 | fleshmelt | I think Eclipse can check syntax of Lua and XML |
| 23:59.42 | foxlit | Kate! |
