| 00:00.22 | Kraps | Amarande: can i have some of that cash :p |
| 00:00.27 | Dagmar | Don't forget 240Mhz refresh |
| 00:00.41 | Dagmar | ...and a triple-layer DVD burner! |
| 00:00.44 | *** join/#wowuidev nicoli_s (~nsinkule@69.73.16.202) |
| 00:00.44 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v nicoli_s] by ChanServ |
| 00:01.29 | Kraps | Thrae: so i should get 1? |
| 00:01.39 | Kraps | if i do |
| 00:01.47 | cbreak | get a mac... |
| 00:01.57 | Kraps | UGH |
| 00:03.02 | Thrae | Kraps: I would get either the http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127518 or http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125352 |
| 00:03.06 | KarlKFI | i was impressed when i say assasin's creed was availible for mac on steam |
| 00:03.08 | KarlKFI | saw* |
| 00:04.22 | Thrae | KarlKFI: Well that makes sense for Assassin's Creed, as the PS3 uses OpenGL. But it is impressive how Valve is getting rather crappy PC engine devs like Assassin's Creed to port over to Mac as well. |
| 00:05.37 | Thrae | In theory a lot of the PC/360/PS3 multi-platform games should be Mac-portable as well, since I believe all of those engines don't really use much of the PS3-specific Cell powers. |
| 00:05.57 | Kraps | Thrae: what about monitors? |
| 00:06.57 | Thrae | Kraps: Samsung in particular is almost always a good buy because they actually make the panels too. Acer has been good as well with a Samsung panel. |
| 00:07.21 | Dagmar | Samsung makes a *crapload* of panels |
| 00:07.24 | KarlKFI | dell has decent monitors |
| 00:07.38 | cbreak | I hate BenQ |
| 00:08.01 | Dagmar | I beg to differ on the Dell thing. Dell is too fond of cutting corners on things like EDID assemblies |
| 00:08.04 | cbreak | (And Acer, but less so) |
| 00:08.18 | Kraps | i have an acer right now, doesnt seem too amazing |
| 00:08.28 | cbreak | my acer screen broke down after a few years, and the benq thing has a whole column of pixel error |
| 00:09.01 | Dagmar | cbreak: Out of warranty? |
| 00:09.07 | cbreak | yes |
| 00:09.09 | Dagmar | Bummer |
| 00:09.27 | cbreak | I think they time that |
| 00:09.39 | Dagmar | Usually that sort of defect shows up in under six months unless the case gets banged about |
| 00:09.56 | KarlKFI | Dagmar: never had that problem with them |
| 00:09.59 | Thrae | I had to do video QA on BenQ (not for the company, for another company) and I also hate them |
| 00:10.10 | Dagmar | I've sent off a couple of different monitors for the oldsters in the condoplex this year |
| 00:10.10 | Thrae | Kraps: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=Property&Subcategory=20&Description=&Type=&N=100007617&IsNodeId=1&srchInDesc=&MinPrice=&MaxPrice=&PropertyCodeValue=3098:46865&PropertyCodeValue=3098:49275&PropertyCodeValue=3098:21324&PropertyCodeValue=3098:46874&PropertyCodeValue=3098:31285&PropertyCodeValue=3098:23867&PropertyCodeValue=3098:46869&PropertyCodeValue=3098:22582&PropertyCodeValue=3098:21328&Proper |
| 00:10.15 | Kraps | can i detach a video card without shutting the pc down? |
| 00:10.16 | Thrae | tyCodeValue=3098:21326&PropertyCodeValue=3098:46872&PropertyCodeValue=3098:46873&PropertyCodeValue=3098:21318&PropertyCodeValue=3098:47909&PropertyCodeValue=1099:17843&PropertyCodeValue=1099:9240&PropertyCodeValue=1099:9242 |
| 00:10.19 | Dagmar | Those old people think I'm a god |
| 00:10.20 | Thrae | Holy |
| 00:10.27 | Kraps | lol Thrae |
| 00:10.28 | cbreak | what a ... url |
| 00:10.30 | Dagmar | Kraps: Tell me... Do you like fire? |
| 00:10.36 | Thrae | I need to get a script that warns me |
| 00:10.42 | cbreak | Kraps: PCI is not hot-swappable |
| 00:10.49 | cbreak | in none of it's incarnations |
| 00:10.50 | Thrae | I'm still getting used to X-Chat2 |
| 00:10.54 | Dagmar | That having been said, you _can_ do it. |
| 00:11.04 | Dagmar | Just don't expect the PC or the video card to put up with your silly games. |
| 00:11.23 | cbreak | the card and/or the bus controller might suffer |
| 00:11.24 | Thrae | Kraps: It's not recommended. You can disable the video card, especially if it's in an SLI setup, without restarting the computer. |
| 00:11.36 | Dagmar | The PC will definitely crash the next time it tries a video write |
| 00:12.33 | Thrae | Kraps: You can switch between SLI and no SLI without restarting. If you're seeing anything right now on your computer screen, mostly likely the card that's "dying" in your system is your secondary and not your primary. |
| 00:12.59 | Thrae | Unless you have it hooked up to your secondary and SLI is already disabled. |
| 00:13.22 | Thrae | Kraps: Anyway, http://goo.gl/AUKV2 |
| 00:13.23 | Nobgul | 0_o |
| 00:13.31 | Kraps | sli is disabled |
| 00:14.09 | Thrae | Kraps: Do you have any game systems you want to use this new 1920x1080/1200 monitor too? if so you can add in "Component" and/or multiple HDMI inputs to the requirement for your new monitor |
| 00:14.25 | Kraps | no i dnt |
| 00:14.29 | Thrae | AFAIK, ASUS Monitors use Samsung panels |
| 00:14.29 | Kraps | +o |
| 00:14.36 | Amarande | Dagmar: Fire? Nah, more likely a snap crackle pop and a little static jump and then a dead PC. :) |
| 00:15.06 | fictive | I'm trying to add text to my frame, the frame shows, but the text doesn't seem to be there. Anyone spot my error? |
| 00:15.15 | fictive | http://wowuidev.pastey.net/144202-2g2w |
| 00:15.19 | Dagmar | Amarande: I've found I'm more likely to get the "Oh then I guess I won't do that response" if I invoke the word 'fire'. |
| 00:15.24 | cbreak | Amarande: didn't you get holywood's message? If you shoot a keyboard or monitor, the computer catches fire, explodes, and forgets all it's data. |
| 00:15.25 | Amarande | And then probably a four letter F word that's not 'fire'. |
| 00:15.35 | Thrae | Kraps: What's your current monitor size and/or how big would you like your new monitor? |
| 00:16.20 | Gagorian | Actually frying a GPU isn't as easy as you think, I had an old GPU I experimented it |
| 00:16.43 | Thrae | !api CreateFontString |
| 00:16.43 | lua_bot | Frame:CreateFontString: Creates a new [[docs/widgets/FontString|`FontString`]] as a child of the frame (http://wowprogramming.com/docs/widgets/Frame/CreateFontString) |
| 00:16.47 | Kraps | does 21.5 make sense Thrae? |
| 00:16.54 | Thrae | Kraps: Yes |
| 00:17.00 | Dagmar | Gagorian: So you got lucky |
| 00:17.01 | *** join/#wowuidev Tuller (~tuller@c-69-143-52-174.hsd1.va.comcast.net) |
| 00:17.01 | Kraps | i think thats it |
| 00:17.11 | Gagorian | I short-circuited it while running FurMark 4-5 times so sparks flew out of the card, ok I lost picture but after rebooting it worked fine |
| 00:17.20 | Dagmar | You got lucky./ |
| 00:17.41 | Gagorian | Well, it's obviously a lot harder to break the card if you're doing it on purpose |
| 00:17.42 | Thrae | Kraps: Do you want around 21.5", or bigger? |
| 00:17.45 | Dagmar | I've seen people murder video cards by touching their monitor. Deadly Sweater Syndrome |
| 00:17.59 | Gagorian | Then I ran a 1.5V battery all over the components |
| 00:18.00 | Dagmar | Thrae: He's a guy, right? And you give him an option like that? |
| 00:18.03 | Gagorian | Didn't break |
| 00:18.05 | fictive | Thrae: I've used that one, if you look at my code |
| 00:18.29 | Thrae | fictive: Well according to that site there's no layer called "FOREGROUND". Also, try putting the "Show" command after "SetText". |
| 00:18.30 | Gagorian | A 9V battery all over the memory chips, broke one chip.. It still worked but I had some streaking in the image |
| 00:18.47 | Dagmar | Gagorian: Don't forget to take your pills. |
| 00:18.53 | Kraps | i think Dagmar is making a joke about penis size |
| 00:18.55 | fictive | Thrae: tried both with no luck :/ |
| 00:19.06 | Gagorian | Then I gave up trying to break it and threw it away :) |
| 00:19.13 | Dagmar | Hey man I've got a 22" and a 24" |
| 00:19.27 | Dagmar | Been thinkin aobut adding a third, but the gf will probably complain about that |
| 00:19.31 | Dagmar | :D |
| 00:19.31 | Kraps | must be a drag |
| 00:19.33 | KarlKFI | i need another 30" anyone got a spare? |
| 00:19.45 | Thrae | fictive: Also might be a good idea to explicitly set a point with SetPoint. |
| 00:20.08 | Kraps | Thrae: i could stand to have a bit bigger |
| 00:20.43 | fictive | Thrae: I'll try that |
| 00:21.27 | Kraps | "If you're seeing anything right now on your computer screen, mostly likely the card that's "dying" in your system is your secondary and not your primary." idk, it only crashes when i game |
| 00:21.35 | fictive | thanks =) I used SetAllPoints(parent) and it worked \o/ |
| 00:22.10 | Kraps | so far |
| 00:22.26 | Dagmar | Kraps: I don't suppose you have a spare (preferably beefier) PSU to try in it huh |
| 00:22.34 | Kraps | no |
| 00:22.39 | Dagmar | Drat |
| 00:22.46 | Xzempt | can someone give me an example usage of lua_isnumber? I'm reading about it on the lua reference manual page and i dont quite undersatnd it |
| 00:22.49 | Dagmar | I keep hot spares for times like that |
| 00:23.00 | cbreak | Xzempt: it's from the C Api |
| 00:23.15 | cbreak | you have no access to that unless you are using lua in your own program |
| 00:23.20 | Xzempt | ah ok |
| 00:23.28 | cbreak | so, in the case of WoW, you can only use it when you work for blizz |
| 00:23.33 | cbreak | use type(var) |
| 00:24.14 | Amarande | Kraps: that might even be your RAM |
| 00:24.29 | Amarande | I had a RAM defect (main RAM) that would only ever show up while gaming |
| 00:24.51 | Amarande | Guild Wars would have the framerate tank eventually and then freeze hard, and WoW would keep dumping out with errors |
| 00:24.56 | Amarande | eventually ran memtest and the RAM was bad :S |
| 00:25.29 | Amarande | *after* I'd upgraded about half the stuff in the system thinking it was wrong (HD, thinking it was dying and corrupting stuff; video card, hoping that nVidia vs. ATI driver differences were at fault; Windows to Vista, in order to get newer drivers at the time ...) |
| 00:25.42 | Kraps | framerates fine, the screen just goes technicolor and freezes-ish |
| 00:26.03 | KarlKFI | technicolor in wow? |
| 00:26.25 | KarlKFI | usually means your gpu is overheating |
| 00:26.30 | Amarande | Heh. There should be something like Gnomeseph and the Amazing Technicolor Tabard or something. :) |
| 00:26.52 | Xzempt | thanks cbreak |
| 00:26.58 | Kraps | KarlKFI: in wow and disciples 3 |
| 00:27.18 | KarlKFI | you can try downloading WhoCrashed and analyze your crash logs |
| 00:27.33 | Thrae | Kraps: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824009266 is good for 1920x1080 and either http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824176144 or http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824611005 for 1920x1200 |
| 00:27.46 | Dagmar | What about hte story of Mary Magdagnome? |
| 00:27.47 | KarlKFI | it'll usually tell you what driver crashed and wheather it was thermal or a drive bug |
| 00:28.00 | KarlKFI | or faultyhardware |
| 00:28.12 | Gagorian | Thrae: Depends what your standards are for good :) |
| 00:28.13 | cbreak | ECC memory is nice :) |
| 00:28.17 | *** join/#wowuidev airtonix (~airtonix@115-64-186-10.tpgi.com.au) |
| 00:28.17 | *** join/#wowuidev airtonix (~airtonix@unaffiliated/airtonix) |
| 00:28.18 | KarlKFI | then there are a couple apps to control fan speeds |
| 00:28.25 | KarlKFI | and see system temps |
| 00:28.36 | Thrae | Kraps: I would recommend going to http://www.memtest.org/ and burning a bootable Memtest86+ and letting it run for at least 24 hours. |
| 00:28.57 | Thrae | Gagorian: You mean for the monitors I just listed? Well, those were based off what I had already talked about with Kraps. |
| 00:28.58 | airtonix | burning discs is so 1980s |
| 00:28.58 | Kraps | links KarlKFI? |
| 00:29.09 | KarlKFI | !google WhoCrashed |
| 00:29.10 | batbot | KarlKFI: Resplendence Software - WhoCrashed, automatic crash dump analyzer <http://www.resplendence.com/whocrashed> |
| 00:29.21 | KarlKFI | !google fan control |
| 00:29.22 | batbot | KarlKFI: Download Fan Control for Mac - Adjusts minimum fan speed on ... <http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/23137> |
| 00:29.28 | Xzempt | This is weird, if i type /script print(type(test[2])); it returns string, but /script print(test[2]) returns "3056." |
| 00:29.33 | airtonix | !google KarlKFIs Face |
| 00:29.34 | batbot | airtonix: Cerebral Sci-Fi Films That Wipe Our Minds | Underwire | Wired.com <http://www.wired.com/underwire/2010/07/gallery-cerebral-sci-fi-films/comment-page-2/> |
| 00:29.41 | cbreak | ... |
| 00:30.01 | KarlKFI | win |
| 00:30.02 | Thrae | Kraps: RivaTuner, SpeedFan, and CoreTemp are good applications for looking at temperature and fan speeds even while in-game. |
| 00:30.03 | cbreak | Xzempt: a string can contain numbers |
| 00:30.25 | cbreak | you can use tonumber to make a number out of it. |
| 00:30.32 | KarlKFI | ya SpeedFan and CoreTemp work well |
| 00:30.34 | cbreak | sometimes |
| 00:30.55 | KarlKFI | i use MacFan, but then i have a macpro booted into windows so i dont thinkt hat'll help you |
| 00:31.06 | airtonix | KarlKFI, i think it really fucking sucks that windows does not have native UserInterface software to monitor temperatures |
| 00:31.13 | KarlKFI | i know huh |
| 00:31.14 | Dagmar | hahaha |
| 00:31.21 | Thrae | KarlKFI: I like RivaTuner even though they don't support the 400 series...however you can get the MSI Afterburner or EVGA Precision app which are both RivaTuner |
| 00:31.21 | KarlKFI | but not really surprising |
| 00:31.22 | airtonix | it has WMI api for it |
| 00:31.27 | Dagmar | The very idea is hilarious |
| 00:31.28 | airtonix | but NO FUCKING INTERFACE' |
| 00:31.40 | Amarande | Any idea what's up with Molinari, btw? |
| 00:31.42 | Dagmar | What's the typical windows user going to do with that information anyway? |
| 00:31.44 | KarlKFI | i use Afterburner for overclockign but the fan control is pretty fail in it |
| 00:31.45 | airtonix | windows is the old linux |
| 00:31.51 | Amarande | recently, whenever I try to use it, alt-clicking ore or herbs doesn't do anything |
| 00:31.54 | Dagmar | They think STP is a form of motor-oil |
| 00:32.07 | Amarande | Dagmar: Standard temperature and pressure? |
| 00:32.09 | airtonix | Serious Temperature Problem ? |
| 00:32.14 | Gagorian | Thrae: TN panels in general suck, but I guess if you need a monitor for serious gaming I guess you have to, at least for 120hz. |
| 00:32.38 | Amarande | Actually, if you keep your computer room at STP, you probably can just take the case off your PC and not have to ever worry about overheating. :) |
| 00:32.40 | cbreak | 120Hz? you crazy? |
| 00:32.48 | KarlKFI | i use Afterburner to set ym gpu fan and MacFan to set the other 4 fan gorups |
| 00:32.48 | airtonix | no |
| 00:32.50 | Amarande | Now *you* may have to worry about freezing, but at least the PC would be fine |
| 00:33.01 | cbreak | unless you do stuff like active time multiplexed stereo |
| 00:33.05 | airtonix | Amarande, mineral oil case |
| 00:33.07 | cbreak | such refresh rates are wasted |
| 00:33.08 | Thrae | airtonix: Most people don't A) need to monitor their temps, and B) don't know WTF the temps mean. Since Windows Vista there's been the built-in "Sidebar" which has temperature-monitor gadgets available on the Live gallery -- ones for GPU, CPU, and HDDs. |
| 00:33.15 | KarlKFI | upping the gpu fan is drasticly more effective when you also up the fan on the expansion bay |
| 00:33.27 | Dagmar | Add to that that most manufacturers for desktop hardware barely make an effort to document what they've connected their cheap-ass sensor chip to, or even make sure that stays consistent throughout the lifetime of a board model, and Microsoft was smart to not go anywhere near that |
| 00:33.39 | TC-Work | Thrae: that suck so much resources it's not funny |
| 00:33.40 | Amarande | (also, is there an alt-click-to-do addon for DEing that works in 4.0.3a?) |
| 00:33.51 | *** join/#wowuidev Diao (vince@adsl-76-254-18-74.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 00:34.31 | airtonix | does windows 7 support usb3 yet ? |
| 00:34.55 | Thrae | Gagorian: Yes, that wasn't in debate. I normally don't give out more information then a person needs, unless they ask for it. Kraps currently has a 2x 9800 GT setup with possibly one or more broken/dying video cards or something else dying, and currently has a 1680x1050 Dell monitor he normally runs at 1440x900. |
| 00:35.01 | Amarande | Dagmar, most such sensor chips are probably schematicced as follows: http://www.xkcd.com/730/ |
| 00:35.19 | Kraps | Thrae: acer |
| 00:35.51 | Thrae | Gagorian: I wasn't throwing 580s and 120hz native at him as this is just a starting point. |
| 00:35.54 | Amarande | airtonix: are there even all that many mobos yet that support USB 3? |
| 00:36.04 | Amarande | or do you still mainly need to install a PCI card to get it? |
| 00:36.13 | airtonix | Amarande, i have one |
| 00:36.17 | Thrae | Amarande: PCI-Express |
| 00:36.43 | KarlKFI | a few mobos have it |
| 00:36.50 | Amarande | Thrae: and I'm guessing that you need some arcane type of PCI-E slot and that an X16 slot (like the unused second one on a SLI supporting board where you're using single video card) isn't right. |
| 00:36.51 | Dagmar | Very few. |
| 00:36.52 | KarlKFI | not too hard to find |
| 00:37.35 | airtonix | Amarande, asus at5nm10 |
| 00:37.46 | *** join/#wowuidev Slaren (slaren@189.Red-79-156-197.staticIP.rima-tde.net) |
| 00:37.50 | airtonix | i got mine fore 120$ |
| 00:37.51 | Gagorian | Thrae: Well if he intends to invest in a new monitor, then more information doesn't hurt. The first monitor you suggested has a TN-panel, so unless budget is a constraint (which I haven't seen a mention about) then it might be worth considering better/other options |
| 00:37.53 | airtonix | :) |
| 00:37.53 | Amarande | Drool. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103858 |
| 00:38.18 | Amarande | (Also, wasn't Thuban that extremely, horribly, fucking annoying boss in the monster arena in FFX?) |
| 00:38.24 | Thrae | Gagorian: Budget is always a constraint. No one has infinite money. We're also talking about a single GTX 460 here. |
| 00:38.29 | Kraps | so i have speedfan open and it shows little flame icons near both GPUs |
| 00:38.39 | airtonix | ah wrong mobo |
| 00:39.00 | Thrae | Amarande: Anyway, there are tons of USB 3.0 motherboards out there now on both AMD and Intel side. |
| 00:39.04 | Amarande | "Hai there. I COUNTER EVERY BLOODY THING YOU DO WITH THIS ATTACK THAT CANCELS ALL OF YOUR BUFFS. INCLUDING RERAISE. (Or as it was called in FFX, Auto-Life.)" |
| 00:39.25 | Amarande | That's what I remember about "Thuban", anyway. Heh. |
| 00:39.40 | airtonix | Amarande, http://www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=iIZKMXSj0jZKiebE |
| 00:39.50 | Kraps | is that what i think it means, or is that normal? |
| 00:40.35 | airtonix | Amarande, thats what i'm using now for a xbmc machine |
| 00:40.41 | Gagorian | Thrae: Well, whatever the GPU is you can still benefit from a better panel, I wasn't even suggesting a 120Hz. The only reasons to go with a TN panel is basically: tight budget and gaming only monitor, or going for the best gaming option with a 120hz monitor. |
| 00:41.09 | Thrae | Amarande: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=usb+3.0+motherboard&x=0&y=0 |
| 00:41.09 | Gagorian | An IPS or PVA panel doesn't add much to the price, like the HP you suggested has an S-PVA panel I believe |
| 00:41.10 | Amarande | Gagorian: doesn't WoW cap at 60 fps anyway? |
| 00:41.27 | *** join/#wowuidev Caleb| (~caleb@fibhost-66-83-191.fibernet.hu) |
| 00:41.29 | Gagorian | Amarande: WoW doesn't benefit from faster response times anyway |
| 00:41.39 | Gagorian | It's more of an FPS benefit |
| 00:41.42 | Amarande | with a 120Hz monitor for gaming in general, your limit is going to be what the game can handle anyway |
| 00:41.47 | Thrae | Amarande: What type of cap are you talking about? |
| 00:41.48 | Dagmar | Amarande: If you have vsync on and yer monitor is set to 60hz |
| 00:41.52 | cbreak | Amarande: if you enable vsync, it will cap at the refresh rate of the graphics card |
| 00:42.06 | Amarande | Thrae: I've never seen my framerate go above 60.0 |
| 00:42.09 | Dagmar | if you think you need more than 60hz for WoW someone should be slapping the crap out of yas |
| 00:42.09 | Thrae | Gagorian: It depends. I do like S-PVA/IPS panels, but they can be deceptively expensive sometimes. |
| 00:42.15 | cbreak | more than 60Hz is useless in most situations |
| 00:42.17 | Amarande | Dagmar: That's gaming in general |
| 00:42.18 | Thrae | Amarande: Do you have Vsync turned on perhaps? |
| 00:42.25 | Gagorian | Amarande: Because you have Vsync and a 60hz panel? |
| 00:42.28 | cbreak | only really useful for CRTs, or if you do stereo with shutter glasses |
| 00:42.29 | Amarande | Thrae: I haven't messed with that setting, not sure if it's default |
| 00:42.37 | Thrae | It is the default, AFAIK |
| 00:42.42 | cbreak | I recommend vsync on |
| 00:42.45 | Kraps | 70 degrees Celsius = 158 degrees Fahrenheit |
| 00:42.51 | Gagorian | cbreak: It's definately not useless if you play competetive First-Person Shooters |
| 00:42.53 | Kraps | thats cant be good right? |
| 00:42.55 | Thrae | In almost all games you want Vsync |
| 00:43.03 | Amarande | let's see what LC says my frame rate in demanding games is right now |
| 00:43.15 | Thrae | Kraps: Yeaaaah...what's at 158F? |
| 00:43.20 | Dagmar | Gagorian: No, it's just not-measureably-useful |
| 00:43.29 | cbreak | Gagorian: there are limitations on what humans can perceive |
| 00:43.35 | Kraps | Thrae: both GPUs according to speedfan |
| 00:43.57 | cbreak | and obviously, if you disable vsync, all the frames your GPU calculates more are thrown away anyway |
| 00:44.04 | cbreak | so absolutely wothless |
| 00:44.07 | Thrae | Kraps: Hmm, let's get a second opinion. Try installing RivaTuner and opening its monitoring tool. |
| 00:44.16 | Gagorian | Dagmar: I'm not going to argue it, but there is a reason why many pro-gamers used CRT's for a long time |
| 00:44.23 | cbreak | (because the next frame is already calculated before it's time for the refresh) |
| 00:44.34 | Dagmar | Gagorian: They couldn't get their moms to spring for a newer monitor, mainly |
| 00:44.40 | Thrae | There's a reason for CRTs, it's just not universal. |
| 00:44.57 | cbreak | the reason is probably that LCD reaction time was slow |
| 00:45.04 | Thrae | I know someone heavy into FPSes who held out on a CRT until LCDs got much better. |
| 00:45.11 | Dagmar | That and their moms wouldn't raise their allowance |
| 00:45.13 | cbreak | refresh rate for LCDs is not the same as for CRTs |
| 00:45.19 | cbreak | they don't actually get refreshed |
| 00:45.31 | cbreak | the states in their transistors get switched |
| 00:45.34 | Thrae | cbreak: Depth of colour too |
| 00:45.41 | cbreak | and that reaction time was slow in older models |
| 00:45.43 | Gagorian | Yes they do, it's just not as big of an impact as the backlight works differently |
| 00:45.49 | tem | Condo Cleanup Status: Pass 1: Trash complete. Commence Pass 2: Dirty Dishes |
| 00:45.51 | cbreak | depth of color is absolutely irelevant for gamers |
| 00:45.52 | tem | sighs |
| 00:46.15 | Dagmar | Wait... Are you seriously trying to say that an LCD panel has scan lines that refresh? |
| 00:46.18 | cbreak | they could probably not tell appart srgb from lab :) |
| 00:46.40 | cbreak | Dagmar: who? |
| 00:46.47 | Thrae | cbreak: Depends on both the game and the person. I didn't say it was a major factor, except for multimedia. |
| 00:46.55 | Dagmar | cbreak: Gag |
| 00:47.02 | Thrae | And when I say multimedia I mean art. |
| 00:47.19 | Gagorian | Dagmar: No. But refresh rate is still an issue |
| 00:47.29 | cbreak | at work, all use LCDs |
| 00:47.51 | cbreak | not even the calibrated kind |
| 00:47.58 | Dagmar | Gagorian: Yeah, mainly it's an issue when salesmen don't have some magic numbers to throw at a sucker...er...customer |
| 00:48.01 | cbreak | (appart from one person) |
| 00:48.05 | Kraps | Thrae: i also have coretemp |
| 00:48.09 | Thrae | Example of someone seeing something I don't -- one of my friends swears by the 240hz "frame tripler" effect of modern HDTVs. He really likes it on some FPSes. |
| 00:48.12 | Gagorian | With 60hz, you have an average of 16.666 ms between frames. 120hz will be half of that. It's hardly not outside the realms of human reaction time. Besides more fluid gameplay plus less input lag allows for better control. |
| 00:48.20 | Thrae | Kraps: CoreTemp doesn't do GPUs yet |
| 00:48.22 | Gagorian | There are other advantages too |
| 00:48.25 | Dagmar | Thrae: he's fuckin' high a lot isn't he |
| 00:48.27 | Kraps | yeah |
| 00:48.36 | Amarande | ok, does HL2 have compatibility problems with Windows 7? |
| 00:48.45 | cbreak | Gagorian: input lag has nothing to do with the number of frames the graphics card calculates |
| 00:48.45 | Thrae | Dagmar: Haha, no :D He actually did Video QA with me |
| 00:48.47 | Amarande | I can't seem to get it to start properly, it keeps getting stuck and needing to be ended from task manager |
| 00:48.48 | Gagorian | With 120hz you don't get 3:2 telecine judder cause it's a multiple of 24hz. It also plays PAL content without judder |
| 00:49.03 | Dagmar | Gagorian: Oddly no one has managed to show any scientific results demonstrating measurable improvement |
| 00:49.12 | Kraps | Amarande: my steam version works fine |
| 00:49.15 | Thrae | Specifically he liked UT3 on 240Hz frame-tripling |
| 00:49.21 | Gagorian | cbreak: Indeed, but it's still a crucial factor why some monitors are better than others for gaming |
| 00:49.26 | airtonix | Amarande, STOP PIRATING GAMES K? |
| 00:49.32 | Amarande | :P |
| 00:49.33 | cbreak | you use your monitor for input? |
| 00:49.34 | airtonix | inb4qq |
| 00:49.38 | Dagmar | But that's okay, ther'es whole industries that are fueled by people's expectation that they are somehow one of the magic 3% of cilivization that can benefit from something |
| 00:49.39 | cbreak | you're doing it wrong :/ |
| 00:49.39 | Amarande | I start it from Steam |
| 00:49.54 | Thrae | Amarande: Never had a problem with W7 here. However, it could be related to the TF2 problems people have been having with the latest TF2 update. There might have been something in there which also updated HL2. |
| 00:49.54 | Gagorian | cbreak: And the 120hz monitors designed for gaming usually have very low input lag |
| 00:50.03 | airtonix | Amarande, well played sir |
| 00:50.04 | Amarande | everything gets big for a moment as the screen resolution changes (as I haven't run it yet after installing 7, so I haven't set the res yet) |
| 00:50.15 | cbreak | Gagorian: you should get a keyboard with low input latency |
| 00:50.20 | cbreak | that's probably more useful |
| 00:50.21 | Dagmar | gagorian: You don't get telecine judder unless your equipment or recorded media is shit |
| 00:50.25 | Amarande | then I get a black screen with the Windows "please wait" circle cursor that never goes away, and HD activity is unusually low for a game loading |
| 00:50.26 | Gagorian | cbreak: That's a very different thing |
| 00:50.32 | cbreak | it's input |
| 00:50.40 | cbreak | who the hell does input with his monitor? it's an output device. |
| 00:50.42 | Gagorian | Dagmar: You will always get 3:2 pulldown judder on a 60hz monitor |
| 00:51.00 | Dagmar | Gagorian: No, you wo'nt. |
| 00:51.09 | Thrae | Amarande: To people encountering problems with Source games on Steam I tell them to do a full wipe of the game (first through Steam, then in the Steam folder) and redownload + reinstall. |
| 00:51.19 | Gagorian | cbreak: Input lag is the measurement of the time the picture is transferred from the graphics card until it's shown on the monitor |
| 00:51.27 | Gagorian | cbreak: Increased by any picture processing etc |
| 00:51.39 | cbreak | 3:2 pulldown is what you do to when you have telecined stuff and want progressive frames |
| 00:51.43 | Gagorian | Dagmar: Yes you will, it's impossible to scale 24hz to 60hz without 3:2 pulldown |
| 00:51.51 | mckenziemc | which reminds me |
| 00:51.53 | Gagorian | Dagmar: 24 fps that is |
| 00:51.54 | cbreak | there's no need to do it if you have a non-crappy source |
| 00:51.59 | Dagmar | No, you won't. |
| 00:52.03 | mckenziemc | what exactly does wow do when you enable Reduce Input Lag? |
| 00:52.09 | cbreak | Gagorian: that's output lag |
| 00:52.14 | mckenziemc | in order to get that effect |
| 00:52.18 | Gagorian | cbreak: No it's not, read up on it |
| 00:52.24 | Gagorian | It's called monitor input lag |
| 00:52.45 | cbreak | hmm... |
| 00:52.47 | Gagorian | Dagmar: Well tell me how you would scale 24 frames per second to a device that shows 60 frames per second? |
| 00:53.00 | Dagmar | DAllow me to suggest that you start reading those forum posts with a more critical eye. |
| 00:53.29 | Gagorian | Dagmar: if you show every frame twice in a row, you get 48 fps, if you show every frame three times in a row you get 72fps |
| 00:53.33 | Dagmar | Gagorian: Mainly I would simply click _play_ |
| 00:53.35 | Thrae | http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=39226 <-- this used to be *the* LCD Resource thread until it kinda died sometime earlier this year. Its information is still good, but doesn't have reviews of newer monitors. For 120hz and 3D you should go to the HardOCP forums. |
| 00:53.46 | Gagorian | Dagmar: Now you don't know what you're talking about then |
| 00:53.58 | cbreak | it's fairly easy |
| 00:54.04 | cbreak | you play some frames twice |
| 00:54.05 | Dagmar | Gagorian: So basically you're saying if I use one ham-handed approach I'll get bad results, and if I use a different more half-assed approach, I'll also get bad results. |
| 00:54.06 | cbreak | some three times |
| 00:54.20 | Gagorian | cbreak: And that results in 3:2 pulldown judder |
| 00:54.23 | cbreak | no |
| 00:54.28 | Gagorian | Yes |
| 00:54.34 | cbreak | get a clue |
| 00:54.39 | cbreak | 3:2 pulldown is for inverse telecine |
| 00:54.43 | Gagorian | You just said some frames 3 times, some frames 2 times. 3:2 pulldown |
| 00:54.44 | Dagmar | Gagorian: I know what I'm talking about because I've got freaking DVDs from the UK that I spent quite a bit of time figuring out how to properly convert to play correctly on my home theatre setup. |
| 00:54.45 | cbreak | you do not get it if the source is 24fps |
| 00:55.00 | cbreak | it's for when your source is telecined |
| 00:55.09 | Gagorian | Yes you do, whenever you play it on a 60hz monitor |
| 00:55.14 | cbreak | that is, it's 30000/1001 fps interlaced |
| 00:55.43 | Gagorian | Dagmar: That's the point behind "24p" displays, with refresh rate a multiple of the frame rate of the medium.. No weird ass uneven pulldown needed |
| 00:55.51 | cbreak | telecining is the technique of transforming 24000/1001 fps progressive to ntsc style interlaced |
| 00:55.52 | Gagorian | And 120hz is a multiple of 24 |
| 00:55.58 | cbreak | 3:2 pulldown is the inverse |
| 00:56.24 | Gagorian | cbreak: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine#2:3_pulldown |
| 00:56.44 | cbreak | but really, only an idiot would even consider to use telecine on modern equipment. |
| 00:56.47 | Amarande | Good grief, 13.6 million results on Google when you search for "half-life 2 windows 7" |
| 00:56.52 | cbreak | interlacing is a technique of the past |
| 00:56.54 | Thrae | http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1271360 <-- this is the 30" 2560x1600 monitor I own, the Gateway XHD3000. I haven't seen the "input lag" people always talk about, but arguably to their defense I don't play FPSes competitively (although I do play FPSes). However, the HQV upscaler doesn't work nearly as well as a decent video card. |
| 00:57.32 | Gagorian | cbreak: Now that's a different thing again |
| 00:57.58 | Gagorian | cbreak: Just read that wikipedia article |
| 00:58.05 | cbreak | you should read it :) |
| 00:58.25 | Thrae | Amarande: That's because it's searching for half+life+2+windows+7, which can also include popular hits for "half life" as well as "windows xp" or "windows vista" |
| 00:58.28 | cbreak | maybe look at the pretty pictures that contain the (Video Field Odd) and (Video Field Even) titles |
| 00:59.19 | Gagorian | cbreak: So you are saying that on your 60hz monitor you get no judder due to the 3:2 pulldown when viewing 24 fps material? |
| 00:59.30 | cbreak | indeed. |
| 00:59.36 | cbreak | because I do not DO 3:2 pulldown |
| 00:59.53 | Gagorian | Of course you do |
| 00:59.55 | Gagorian | "In the United States and other countries where television uses the 60Hz vertical scanning frequency, video is broadcast at 29.97 frame/s. For the film's motion to be accurately rendered on the video signal, a telecine must use a technique called the 2:3 pulldown, also known as 3:2 pulldown, to convert from 24 to 29.97 frame/s." |
| 01:00.00 | Gagorian | Straight from the article |
| 01:00.06 | cbreak | I am not in the US |
| 01:00.08 | foxlit | gr, levelling curve |
| 01:00.12 | cbreak | I don't own a US TV |
| 01:00.14 | Thrae | Amarande: Add "2010" and you'll get better results |
| 01:00.23 | cbreak | I don't do interlaced video content |
| 01:00.23 | Gagorian | cbreak: Doesn't matter as long as you use a 60Hz monitor, which is basically any PC monitor |
| 01:00.27 | cbreak | no |
| 01:00.43 | mckenziemc | pc monitors aren't interlaced thogh |
| 01:00.45 | Amarande | OK, this is strange. Lost Coast freezes up every time, while Day of Defeat: Source loads fine |
| 01:00.47 | Kraps | Thrae: how does riatuner work? |
| 01:00.53 | Gagorian | mckenziemc: Doesn't matter |
| 01:00.57 | Amarande | I DID notice one thing though. Apparently Windows Firewall may be an issue. |
| 01:01.00 | Thrae | Amarande: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1287798 <-- this is more promising |
| 01:01.00 | Dagmar | Yes, it very much does |
| 01:01.01 | cbreak | you do the same mistake as all who call all digital audio files "mp3" |
| 01:01.04 | Dagmar | Oh dear GOD it matters |
| 01:01.13 | Amarande | Indeed, I'm starting to think that gaming PCs should not run a software firewall at all, for stability reasons |
| 01:01.21 | mckenziemc | >< |
| 01:01.25 | cbreak | there's really no reason to interlace progressive content |
| 01:01.28 | Thrae | Amarande: Lost Coast and DoD use different versions of the Source engine |
| 01:01.31 | fictive | hmm, do you HAVE to add a backdrop to a fram in order for it to be visible? Isn't it enough to just create a texture on the frame and use SetTexture? |
| 01:01.47 | Thrae | DoD uses the Counterstrike: Source version, I believe |
| 01:02.06 | Dagmar | Amarande: That says more about shit packet filtering code |
| 01:02.16 | Amarande | Dagmar: it's more the problem I've seen with a lot of games with firewalls |
| 01:02.31 | Gagorian | cbreak: Well, there's tons of discussion over this entire matter on the internet. What do you suggest is the point of having TV's or monitors with 24p support? |
| 01:02.36 | Amarande | the game is trying to set up video, and meanwhile the OS is trying to force its way back to the desktop midstream to pop up a firewall warning asking you to confirm that you want this program to access the Internet |
| 01:02.50 | Thrae | I haven't had any problems with the Windows Firewall except with one game, and that game was original Borderlands. |
| 01:02.53 | Dagmar | Amarande: Yeah man but the amount of CPU it takes to check twelve bytes against a state table is _really trivial_ |
| 01:02.58 | cbreak | Gagorian: not suffering from crappy interlacing |
| 01:03.18 | Amarande | Dagmar: It's more the rapid video switch caused by the game wanting to go into fullscreen as soon as it starts, then Windows trying to pull it back while the game's trying to initialize, so that it can pop up a security warning |
| 01:03.20 | Gagorian | cbreak: Like you said, you need to display every 2nd frame 3 times, every 2nd frame 2 times to get it to display on a 60hz monitor. That causes judder. |
| 01:03.20 | cbreak | interlacing is an artefact of the past, where video bandwidth was very limited |
| 01:03.22 | Thrae | Kraps: You mean for monitoring temperatures and stuff? |
| 01:03.36 | Dagmar | Amarande: That's a failure of the UI (and the user) not firewalling. |
| 01:03.54 | cbreak | but in modern video technology, progressive formats are almost exclusively used |
| 01:03.59 | Amarande | Dagmar: it's an issue with Windows' design itself, then, which wouldn't exist without a firewall. |
| 01:04.03 | Dagmar | Gagorian: again, no. |
| 01:04.10 | mckenziemc | gagorian: i doubt it's noticible to the human eye anyway |
| 01:04.20 | Thrae | Kraps: RivaTuner is kinda like an all-in-one tool. There should be an icon which says "Hardware Monitoring" when you mouse over it. I think GPU temperature is tracked by default. If not you can go to "Setup" on what pops up. |
| 01:04.29 | Gagorian | mckenziemc: Very noticeable actually, I've looke into this rather exentensively |
| 01:04.37 | Gagorian | Dagmar: Because? |
| 01:04.42 | Dagmar | You have failed. |
| 01:04.58 | mckenziemc | wouldn't the low framerate of the source trump the effect of the judder anyway? |
| 01:05.10 | Dagmar | If it's classifiable as "very noticeable" it's becuase you screwed up the playback |
| 01:05.23 | Gagorian | mckenziemc: That's a different type of judder |
| 01:05.34 | mckenziemc | i realize |
| 01:05.36 | Dagmar | If you took a DVD and blindly told it to transcode each and every frame, you have failed. |
| 01:05.48 | Gagorian | Dagmar: Then you haven't experienced judder-free playback |
| 01:05.58 | Gagorian | It's not noticeable if you're used to it |
| 01:06.05 | fictive | http://wowuidev.pastey.net/144204 <-- shouldn't this be enough to get a displayable frame? |
| 01:06.21 | mckenziemc | but it doesn't seem reasonable to me that you'd notice the 3:2 judder over the low source framerate |
| 01:06.29 | Thrae | I think the Windows Focus problem is an equal failure of both Microsoft and the developer of whatever program you're running. It shouldn't be entirely up to the UI to handle every focus issue, but then again Microsoft makes us pretty much stuck with their GUIs so they do have the responsibility to make them more idiot-proof for developers that are idiots and/or don't-care. |
| 01:06.54 | Thrae | (A lot of devs of pre-Vista products fall into "don't care") |
| 01:07.16 | Gagorian | mckenziemc: It's low source framerate is usually compensated by good cinematography, it seems more natural when you're used to the movie feel |
| 01:07.28 | Gagorian | Now the 3:2 judder is very annoying in movement and panning scenes |
| 01:07.42 | mckenziemc | lower your monitor's framerate to 48 :p |
| 01:07.57 | Dagmar | TThrae: You're talking aobut a userbase that regularly lowers the bar for biggest idiot |
| 01:07.58 | Gagorian | My TV is at 24hz |
| 01:08.06 | Thrae | Steam can actually interrupt the very games it provides with its pop-up notification events. Something that started with Vista and Valve still hasn't fixed. |
| 01:08.06 | Gagorian | Hence no 3:2 judder |
| 01:08.12 | Kraps | Thrae: yeah, shows both GPUs with 70+C temps |
| 01:08.35 | Gagorian | mckenziemc: My computer monitor doesn't support 24/48/72/120hz or whatever, hence a reason to consider a 120hz monitor |
| 01:08.48 | Thrae | Kraps: Is 70C the highest it can show? |
| 01:09.16 | Thrae | Amarande: Anyway, did https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=1216-JMTZ-0860 help? |
| 01:09.34 | Arrowmaster | mckenziemc: very very few monitors support a 48hz refresh rate |
| 01:09.41 | Gagorian | cbreak and Dagmar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p is a better article explaining it actually |
| 01:09.49 | *** join/#wowuidev Sliker[Bed] (~ponies@87.114.103.44) |
| 01:10.15 | cbreak | 24p just means 24 progressive frames per second |
| 01:10.21 | Dagmar | Gagorian: Dude. I don't need to read your bloody link because I used to do tech work for broadcast TV. |
| 01:10.34 | Kraps | Thrae: no, goes up to 200 http://i.imgur.com/NRU0M.jpg |
| 01:11.17 | Gagorian | cbreak: Yes, but the article explains the pulldown method |
| 01:11.36 | Thrae | Kraps: OK, so it looks like your GPU is getting a bit hotter than it should be. |
| 01:11.57 | Kraps | only a bit? |
| 01:12.08 | cbreak | Gagorian: that's irelevant, since I don't have an NTSC tv |
| 01:12.17 | Thrae | Kraps: Running idle, that is way too hot. |
| 01:12.27 | cbreak | Gagorian: as I told you, you should read your stuff, pulldown/pullup are interlacing techniques |
| 01:12.36 | cbreak | they are of little worth these days |
| 01:12.44 | cbreak | I have a 60p screen, not a 60i |
| 01:13.02 | Arrowmaster | calling it 3:2 pulldown judder is kind of a bad term since theres no pulldown, but the judder does exist, it even exists on dvds that use progressive frames since they still have to be stored as 59.94hz fields |
| 01:13.20 | Kraps | Thrae: shows the fans running at 3.3k+ RPM |
| 01:13.29 | Dagmar | ...and basically, saying that makes you sound like a moron who believes everything "forum experts" say. |
| 01:13.35 | cbreak | the DVD format supports 24/25 progressive frames Arrowmaster |
| 01:13.42 | Arrowmaster | no it does not |
| 01:13.48 | cbreak | they do NOT have to be stored as NTSC format |
| 01:13.50 | Thrae | Kraps: Take a look at http://www.guru3d.com/article/rivatuner-20-fan-speed--overclock-guide/. We're just using this to change the fans. Put the fans on both cards at fixed 70%. |
| 01:13.51 | *** join/#wowuidev Jamash (~Jamash@99-92-174-69.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net) |
| 01:13.55 | Arrowmaster | they are still stored as 59.94hz fields |
| 01:14.03 | Dagmar | Not always |
| 01:14.12 | cbreak | around here, DVDs have never NTSC specs |
| 01:14.21 | Dagmar | The Color of Magic DVD I have is an excellent example of that. |
| 01:14.23 | cbreak | they are usually either PAL (so 25/50 fps) |
| 01:14.31 | cbreak | or they are 24p |
| 01:14.39 | Gagorian | PAL sucks even more. |
| 01:14.45 | Corrodias | it would have been terrible to use that extra 0.06 hertz, wouldn't it |
| 01:14.48 | Corrodias | have |
| 01:14.49 | cbreak | just read the mpeg2 standard |
| 01:14.51 | Corrodias | been? |
| 01:14.51 | Dagmar | The disc plays perfectly fine at either refresh rate because the frames on it aren't mean to be played an identical number of ms apart |
| 01:15.23 | Gagorian | I'm only concerned about 24p Blu-Ray movies anyway |
| 01:16.28 | Gagorian | and at least Arrowmaster agrees that 24p to 60p still produces judder |
| 01:16.31 | Thrae | Kraps: You can follow the rest of the guide I linked to set the fans to be fixed at either 60%, 80%, or 100% depending on the temperature. If you go above 60% they'll probably get rather loud, but it's better than them toasting. |
| 01:16.37 | Gagorian | whatever you call it, I've seen it called 3:2 pulldown |
| 01:16.51 | Gagorian | It's not the same as with interlacing |
| 01:17.01 | Gagorian | But, well, I haven't got a better term for it |
| 01:17.03 | cbreak | pulldown techniques are all about interlacing |
| 01:17.07 | cbreak | they don't work without it |
| 01:17.12 | Thrae | Kraps: You don't have to go past Page 3 on that guide as that's for Overclocking. |
| 01:17.31 | Gagorian | cbreak: Well, whatever you call it the judder is still there |
| 01:17.45 | Dagmar | Oh lewk a wikipedia artickel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine#2:2_pulldown |
| 01:18.11 | Gagorian | Dagmar: PAL content on a 50Hz TV, totally not the topic right now |
| 01:18.43 | Kraps | Thrae: 70%? |
| 01:18.58 | Amarande | good grief, when did Turalyon-US become High population? |
| 01:19.06 | Amarande | It was a solid Medium for the three and a half years I've played WoW. |
| 01:19.16 | Thrae | Kraps: yeah, either 60% like the guide says or 70% |
| 01:25.00 | *** join/#wowuidev rikai (~rikai@unaffiliated/rikai) |
| 01:27.14 | Gagorian | Arrowmaster: You know what the process is called of duplicating the progressive frames? |
| 01:27.28 | Arrowmaster | soft telecine |
| 01:27.37 | Arrowmaster | at least for dvds |
| 01:28.05 | cbreak | soft telecine creates interlaced patterns too |
| 01:28.10 | cbreak | I don't think it has a name |
| 01:28.10 | Kraps | Thrae: ok now what |
| 01:28.16 | Dagmar | Gagorian: Odd. I thought the topic was that you don't know what you're talking about. |
| 01:28.34 | Gagorian | Dagmar: Well I'm sorry if I used the wrong TERM describing the issue |
| 01:28.47 | Gagorian | I said this isn't related to interlacing, but it still causes judder |
| 01:29.13 | Gagorian | But you then tried to bring interlacing to the table all the time, even when I tried to explain that 24fps to 60hz causes judder |
| 01:29.18 | cbreak | the 24 to 60 Hz missmatch is only an issue if you use vsync anyway |
| 01:29.35 | Dagmar | Gagorian: No, I didn't. Cbreak did. And not even that. You seem to think there is pulldown that doesn't involve interlacing. |
| 01:29.47 | Arrowmaster | soft telecine is done by using flags in the mpeg2 stream to duplicate fields from the 24fps source to the 29fps output |
| 01:29.56 | Gagorian | Well like I said, I didn't know it's not called pulldown with progressive frames |
| 01:30.06 | Gagorian | Big deal, I tried to explain the reason why 120hz is superior to 60hz |
| 01:30.10 | Arrowmaster | players can detect this and convert the 29fps output back to 24fps |
| 01:30.20 | Gagorian | Judder-free playback of 24p material |
| 01:30.22 | Kraps | Thrae: 10 degree C drop |
| 01:30.23 | cbreak | Arrowmaster: soft telecine is a flag that tells the player "do the telecining yourself if you want to" |
| 01:30.30 | Kraps | wait no |
| 01:30.36 | Dagmar | Generally it makes the DVD "just work"., |
| 01:30.38 | cbreak | players can just not do it if they want to keep the 24fps source |
| 01:30.44 | Kraps | um yes |
| 01:30.46 | Gagorian | And nobody has yet suggested what the technique is actually called |
| 01:31.06 | Gagorian | So, it's easy to criticize using the wrong technical term for it |
| 01:31.09 | Dagmar | Those DVDs get the "noticeable judder" if you transcode them into a straight 30hz or 60hz rate, because you fucked up. |
| 01:31.13 | Kraps | about 10 degrees |
| 01:31.28 | Dagmar | Gagorian: You made up the technique. You might as well make up a name for it as well. |
| 01:31.58 | Gagorian | Progressive frames still need to be duplicated for 60hz playback |
| 01:32.09 | Gagorian | With an uneven duplication it causes judder |
| 01:32.30 | mckenziemc | dagmar: then what technique DO they use to get from a 24hz source to a 60hz output |
| 01:32.40 | Dagmar | mckenziemc: Generally soft telecine like was mentioned |
| 01:32.56 | Dagmar | The DVD will have frames that are _never to be played_ if you are at a given refresh rate. |
| 01:33.35 | Thrae | Kraps: With it at 70% or 60%? |
| 01:33.43 | Kraps | 70% |
| 01:34.12 | Thrae | Kraps: OK, wait about 3 minutes and see what the temp is at then. It may keep dropping. |
| 01:34.36 | Thrae | Kraps: Also, make sure you're looking at the *CORE* temp and not the *AMBIENT* temp. |
| 01:35.11 | Thrae | Actually you can look at both, as long as you know the Core temp will be higher than the Ambient temp |
| 01:35.15 | mckenziemc | "In the soft-telecined case, the material is stored on the DVD at the film rate (24 or 23.976 frames/s) in the original progressive format, with special flags inserted into the MPEG-2 video stream that instruct the DVD player to repeat certain fields so as to accomplish the required pulldown during playback" -- that sounds like the technique gagorian was describing at the very start |
| 01:35.18 | Thrae | Will be/should be |
| 01:36.17 | Arrowmaster | i dont know why they say 24 or 23.976 |
| 01:36.24 | Gagorian | mckenziemc: That's what I've been trying to explain, but then interlacing gets brought up all the time :) |
| 01:36.26 | Arrowmaster | ive yet to find anything thats actually at 24 |
| 01:36.50 | Gagorian | Arrowmaster: Indeed |
| 01:36.58 | Gagorian | It's easier to say 24 though |
| 01:37.00 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: Film. |
| 01:37.20 | cbreak | mckenziemc: no, that technique is called telecining |
| 01:37.26 | Kraps | Thrae: theres 4 in this list, i only changed the 1st instance of each one http://i.imgur.com/AgL5e.jpg |
| 01:37.34 | Arrowmaster | Dagmar: are you sure thats still true? all bluray rips of movies i have are 23.976 |
| 01:37.34 | cbreak | read it again: "repeat certain fields" |
| 01:37.42 | cbreak | a field is half of a frame, either the even or the odd lines |
| 01:38.05 | cbreak | but it seems Gagorian always starts with interlacing |
| 01:38.12 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: 23.976 is happy for video. Film, when they still use it (which is damn rare now) is generally 24 frames a second. Probably for reasons that had to do with contracts and unions. |
| 01:38.13 | cbreak | and then says that he doesn't mean to mention it |
| 01:38.28 | mckenziemc | cbreak: telecining is called telecining? |
| 01:38.43 | cbreak | mckenziemc: surprised? |
| 01:38.51 | Gagorian | cbreak: Well tell us then what technique do they use with progressive frames for 60 hz playback? |
| 01:38.52 | Thrae | Kraps: Yeah that's fine as long as it's both GPU0 and GPU1 you're changing. The extra listings are there for RivaTuner's monitor tuning. |
| 01:39.00 | Thrae | (Monitor, as in display) |
| 01:39.00 | Kraps | ok |
| 01:39.19 | cbreak | Gagorian: are you that slow? I just play frames as long as they are meant to be displayed |
| 01:39.23 | Arrowmaster | Dagmar: so they are converting all 24fps source to 23.976fps when creating blurays? |
| 01:39.24 | mckenziemc | well you just told me "no it's not telecining, it's telecining" |
| 01:39.27 | cbreak | I think I said that ages ago a few times |
| 01:39.38 | cbreak | maybe you ignored it |
| 01:39.44 | Kraps | Thrae: both are steady at 58C now |
| 01:40.03 | Gagorian | cbreak: That doesn't end up with an even distribution of time per frame unless you have a 24p monitor |
| 01:40.16 | Kraps | GPU1 actually goes 58-59 |
| 01:40.18 | cbreak | mckenziemc: when did I say that what you describe is not telecining? |
| 01:40.51 | Thrae | Kraps: OK. Now go back to the guide I linked and make sure you show the GPU temperatures for both GPU0/Core and GPU1/Core in-game. |
| 01:40.57 | cbreak | Gagorian: if you enable vsync, frames have a different number of refresh slots, obviously |
| 01:41.03 | Thrae | Kraps: (in-game being "Overlay") |
| 01:41.04 | cbreak | Gagorian: I said that ages ago too |
| 01:41.09 | mckenziemc | when you responded to my "in the soft-telecining case" with "no, that technique is called telecining" |
| 01:41.17 | Gagorian | cbreak: And that causes judder |
| 01:41.19 | Arrowmaster | cbreak: how does vsync solve it? |
| 01:41.27 | Thrae | Kraps: Then try opening up WoW and sitting at the login screen (not the launcher, actually WoW.exe) |
| 01:41.31 | cbreak | Arrowmaster: it doesn't solve it. it causes it |
| 01:41.37 | Arrowmaster | no it doesnt |
| 01:41.44 | Thrae | Kraps: See if the temp increases beyond 58C |
| 01:41.50 | cbreak | without vsync, you'd have half of one frame, half of the other, sometimes :) |
| 01:42.01 | Arrowmaster | which you dont want either |
| 01:42.04 | Gagorian | Without vsync it's unwatchable |
| 01:42.05 | cbreak | of courser not |
| 01:42.06 | Arrowmaster | i consider that worse |
| 01:42.10 | cbreak | that's why you enable vsync |
| 01:42.14 | Gagorian | With vsync you get judder |
| 01:42.34 | Gagorian | Hence 120hz monitor |
| 01:42.35 | Kraps | Thrae: not sure what you mean by ingame overlay |
| 01:42.39 | Gagorian | or 24p |
| 01:42.40 | mckenziemc | it's the framerate that causes that; vsync just adds tearing to the mix |
| 01:42.50 | cbreak | no |
| 01:42.51 | Thrae | Seriously people this is Freenode and there's a cool ##hardware channel which I also hang out in :D |
| 01:42.56 | cbreak | vsync REMOVES tearing from the mix |
| 01:42.58 | Arrowmaster | vsync prevents tearing |
| 01:43.08 | Thrae | I'm talking to Arrowmaster, cbreak, mckenziemc, Gagorian ;) |
| 01:43.09 | mckenziemc | lack of vsync* |
| 01:43.31 | cbreak | it's software, not hardware |
| 01:43.39 | Arrowmaster | its a mix |
| 01:44.01 | Kraps | Thrae: like a setting? |
| 01:45.01 | Thrae | Kraps: http://www.guru3d.com/imageview.php?image=10671 <-- "Show core temperature in on-screen display" |
| 01:45.12 | Thrae | Kraps: From http://www.guru3d.com/article/rivatuner-20-fan-speed--overclock-guide/3 |
| 01:45.24 | Kraps | ah yeah |
| 01:46.19 | mckenziemc | what does wow's Reduce Input Lag setting do anyway |
| 01:46.35 | DWSR | Exactly what it says it does... |
| 01:46.54 | mckenziemc | facepalms |
| 01:46.57 | DWSR | I believe it increases polling rate so that it catches events sooner. |
| 01:47.00 | mckenziemc | what does it do internally |
| 01:47.04 | Thrae | I think he means what does it do in software. |
| 01:47.18 | Corrodias | why would you ever NOT have that turned on? |
| 01:47.30 | Gagorian | cbreak: Well I guess the correct way to refer to it would be saying that every second frame is displayed for 3 refresh rate intervals, while every second frame is displayed for 2 refresh rate intervals! |
| 01:47.32 | DWSR | Massively decreases framerate. |
| 01:47.41 | Corrodias | bah |
| 01:47.56 | mckenziemc | it claims to possibly reduce framerate in the tooltip, and i don't understand how input lag works |
| 01:48.08 | DWSR | mckenziemc: I'm on the phone, give me second. |
| 01:48.15 | mckenziemc | k |
| 01:48.17 | Thrae | Corrodias: With naturally occurring lag I've never found a reason to use it |
| 01:48.23 | clever | mckenziemc: you know about how the game polls the keyboard between each frame? |
| 01:48.28 | Gagorian | cbreak: 3:2 pulldown is just a lot easier to say, basically and the end result is basically the same = judder! |
| 01:48.54 | cbreak | Gagorian: the end result of 3:2 pulldown is interlaced ntsc content |
| 01:48.58 | cbreak | *shudder* |
| 01:49.00 | mckenziemc | 'Input Lag' refers to a video phenomenon though not keyboard input' |
| 01:49.15 | Corrodias | mckenziemc: close. it comes from a combination of all those things. |
| 01:49.20 | mckenziemc | cbreak: not in this context |
| 01:49.29 | cbreak | mckenziemc: in ALL contexts |
| 01:49.40 | mckenziemc | sigh |
| 01:49.45 | clever | mckenziemc: from what ive noticed, if your frames are slow and you hold a key for less then 1 frame, it wont react to it at all |
| 01:49.46 | Corrodias | but the keyboard/mouse/controller->computer/console lag is usually not huge |
| 01:49.47 | cbreak | field duplication does not work without interlacing |
| 01:49.54 | Kraps | Thrae: GPU0 went to 62, GPU1 is at 59 |
| 01:50.00 | mckenziemc | did you even read the piece i posted from wikipedia? |
| 01:50.04 | clever | Corrodias: i believe the lag is always 1 frame worth of time |
| 01:50.11 | cbreak | did you even read it? obviously not |
| 01:50.17 | cbreak | do you even know what a field is? |
| 01:50.24 | Corrodias | http://www.anandtech.com/show/2803/7 |
| 01:50.26 | Thrae | Kraps: OK, is this with the game windowed or full-screen? And at 1440x900? |
| 01:50.32 | Gagorian | Well, I think we've went over this already a few times |
| 01:50.42 | Corrodias | i expect some of those numbers of his may be made up |
| 01:50.50 | Corrodias | but maybe not. i haven't read that in ages. |
| 01:50.53 | mckenziemc | in pcs a field is the whole frame, rather than a set of even or odd lines, if i understand correctly |
| 01:50.59 | cbreak | no |
| 01:51.18 | cbreak | a frame is the whole frame. a field is half of the frame, either even or odd lines |
| 01:51.22 | Kraps | windowed, the games res is 1680x1050 |
| 01:51.45 | mckenziemc | ok then, terminology issue |
| 01:51.46 | *** join/#wowuidev Daegalus (~daegalus@dsl081-057-092.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 01:51.58 | Gagorian | Well, the end result is that both techniques have similarities, with 3 and 2 pattern |
| 01:52.00 | mckenziemc | in pcs, a frame is one 'page' of video, and fields are not used |
| 01:52.08 | mckenziemc | if i understand correctly* |
| 01:52.11 | Corrodias | interlacing is the devil |
| 01:52.17 | Corrodias | satan interlaces your soul into hell |
| 01:52.21 | cbreak | fields are used when dealing with interlaced video |
| 01:52.22 | mckenziemc | pc monitors* also |
| 01:52.32 | Gagorian | So I don't personally think it's a major crime to call it a 3:2 pattern at the least |
| 01:52.40 | Dagmar | "All cars have wheels, so I can take my Geo onto the Audobahn." |
| 01:52.53 | cbreak | computers only deal with interlaced video when doing stuff like DVD Playback or displaying on PAL/NTSC TVs |
| 01:53.09 | Corrodias | some monitors can deal with interlaced signals. especially those with HDMI inputs. |
| 01:53.10 | Gagorian | It's a pronounced 3:2 judder, perhaps slightly different than the result of 3:2 pulldown |
| 01:53.42 | cbreak | Corrodias: they can. doesn't mean you should send them such signals :) |
| 01:53.43 | Gagorian | But still, the initial conversaion was discussing the benefit of 120hz which you guys said wasn't there |
| 01:53.53 | Thrae | mckenziemc: "Input Lag" for a monitor is something that happens when the signal hits the monitor to be displayed, if that's what you're confused about. There are various things done to the signal before its displayed which require processing time -- HDCP, DRM, DSP, scalers, general anti-ghosting technology, etc. |
| 01:53.55 | Corrodias | oh, definitely. if i had my way, i'd eliminate all interlaced signals in the world. |
| 01:54.01 | Dagmar | That's because for 95% of the population, it's not |
| 01:54.16 | Dagmar | Very few people's eyes can manage to sense changes that fast. |
| 01:54.38 | Corrodias | i'm extremely sensitive to motion blur. |
| 01:54.38 | Arrowmaster | well really its the 3:3:2:2, 2:3:3:2, or 2:2:3:3 pulldown that causes the most judder on dvds |
| 01:54.38 | Thrae | Of course, "processing time" isn't necessarily >0ms |
| 01:54.40 | Dagmar | Doesn't stop the kiddies from believing they can, and it definitely doesn't stop marketing people from encouraging that fantasy |
| 01:54.45 | Corrodias | that has nothing to do with this conversation. |
| 01:54.48 | cbreak | afaik, the limit for human eyes is around 15 Hz or so |
| 01:54.51 | Arrowmaster | they dont actually use 2:3, 3:2 anymore |
| 01:54.59 | Dagmar | cbreak: Lower bounds. |
| 01:55.07 | Gagorian | Well, I'm certain most people would notice the difference if they were accustomed to better |
| 01:55.15 | Gagorian | If you're used to shit, you don't notice |
| 01:55.16 | Corrodias | i don't know what to say, cbreak, i definitely notice the difference between 20fps and 40fps |
| 01:55.17 | Dagmar | most people are guaranteed to see frames at below that point |
| 01:55.20 | Dagmar | Gagorian: No. |
| 01:55.21 | Thrae | Corrodias: My friend said the same thing, and he found 120hz/240hz doubling really helps him. |
| 01:55.28 | cbreak | that's the "limit for individual frame" detection |
| 01:55.37 | Dagmar | gagorian: this is a limitation of biochemistry and eyeballs, not one of "what you're accustomed to" |
| 01:55.44 | cbreak | so if something is slower, you see it move in steps |
| 01:55.51 | cbreak | if it's faster, you see a fluid motion |
| 01:55.53 | Corrodias | Thrae: i definitely want to try some of that technology, when i find a display with it that pleases me |
| 01:55.59 | Gagorian | This isn't about how fast your eyes refresh, it's the entire sense of movement |
| 01:56.00 | Dagmar | There's about as much factual accuracy in that as the typical forum tard claiming he can hear a difference between 240kb encodes and 320kb encodes |
| 01:56.11 | cbreak | there are many more limits, for detection of things like short image flashes |
| 01:56.11 | Gagorian | it's been disproven your eyes work at 24fps or whatever |
| 01:56.11 | Dagmar | YOUR EYES DON'T REFRESH DAMNIT |
| 01:56.26 | Arrowmaster | Thrae: dont forget that just being an LCD instead of a CRT causes input lag because the entire frame has to be in the buffer before it starts to display any of it, while a CRT displays it as it comes in |
| 01:56.26 | Gagorian | Indeed |
| 01:56.28 | Dagmar | fuck it. I give up |
| 01:56.33 | Corrodias | i notice framerate drops below 40fps. above that, i don't think i see any difference, unless you're talking about a CRT flicker, which i can see below 75hz. |
| 01:56.38 | Dagmar | There is too much accumulated bogon there. |
| 01:56.48 | Corrodias | since it's blanking and redrawing, i guess that is really 150hz |
| 01:57.08 | Gagorian | Dagmar: Yes, eyes don't refresh, that's what I said :D |
| 01:57.11 | Thrae | Corrodias: Yeah, you might want to try watching a movie using Media Center Classic HomeCinema with ffdShow and use its pre and post processing features, if your video card and/or cpu can handle it. |
| 01:57.12 | Gagorian | It's the sense of movement |
| 01:57.24 | Gagorian | Your eyes can easily pick up on patterns |
| 01:57.27 | Dagmar | I'm tempted to be a complete asshole and demand a link to where it was "proven" that eyes don't work at 24fps |
| 01:57.32 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraps (~chatzilla@ool-44c20717.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 01:57.35 | Dagmar | No self-respecting scientist would set out to do that. |
| 01:57.50 | Corrodias | don't work? |
| 01:58.02 | Corrodias | Thrae: i watch so few movies. it's all about games, for me. |
| 01:58.08 | mckenziemc | thrae: that seems to be how i understood it, but what does wow do in order to reduce that time? |
| 01:58.10 | Arrowmaster | Dagmar: duh, we have two eyes so it cant be progressive |
| 01:58.13 | cbreak | eyes don't work at any frame rate |
| 01:58.19 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: Ino rite? |
| 01:58.39 | Dagmar | Pro gamers use four eyes anyway |
| 01:58.57 | Corrodias | there may be a "frequency" to the neural transmissions. fucked if i know anything about neurochemistry or neuroscience. |
| 01:59.02 | Thrae | mckenziemc: Input Lag? Oh, you mean with the UI Input Lag? That's different. There the tooltip is talking about input from your keyboard and/or mouse, not the display. |
| 01:59.19 | cbreak | Corrodias: there are a few involved |
| 01:59.29 | Gagorian | Dagmar: Well, yes, the haste of trying to type up answers leads to retardness. I tried to explain that it's been proven that human eyes can easily percieve the difference between 24fps and faster motion |
| 01:59.31 | Dagmar | Corrodias: the chemical reaction of light onto light-detecting cells of the retina only happens so fast, and it doesn't happen evenly across the retina |
| 01:59.35 | cbreak | I don't know the details, but there's some preprocessing going on in the retina |
| 01:59.37 | Thrae | http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm <-- good article |
| 01:59.41 | mckenziemc | ah |
| 01:59.51 | cbreak | then there's some more preprocessing going on in the nerves to the brain |
| 01:59.58 | cbreak | and then a lot more processing in the brain itself |
| 02:00.01 | mckenziemc | in that case, how does wow's ui input lag thing work |
| 02:00.08 | Gagorian | But if you keep nitpicking on everything, you really need to be more precise in what you type as it's clearly easily misinterpreted |
| 02:00.17 | Gagorian | (I need to be more precise that is) |
| 02:00.19 | Corrodias | Daegalus: makes sense |
| 02:00.49 | *** join/#wowuidev Kandoko (~Kandoko@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Developer/Kandoko) |
| 02:00.56 | Thrae | mckenziemc: It's already been said -- it increases the polling rate. |
| 02:01.34 | Dagmar | Gagorian: It's not "notpicking". We're trying to show you where your logic has gone off the rails, resulting in conclusions that are deeply flawed. |
| 02:01.38 | mckenziemc | why would that cause lower framerate (as the tooltip suggests) |
| 02:01.56 | Thrae | Corrodias: Yeah I was just offering ffdshow as an example. |
| 02:01.59 | Arrowmaster | because its doing more processing |
| 02:02.22 | Dagmar | Some of this eye stuff becomes much more personally meaningful the first time you do LSD |
| 02:02.28 | Dagmar | ...because, welll... trails |
| 02:03.08 | Thrae | mckenziemc: Because it's not optimized to do that much polling on the mostly 2D UI, and overall uses a heck of a lot more resources to do so. |
| 02:03.28 | Gagorian | Dagmar: What of my conclusions are deeply flawed? |
| 02:03.42 | Dagmar | Gagorian: Well, scroll up man |
| 02:03.56 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraps (~chatzilla@ool-44c20717.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 02:03.57 | *** join/#wowuidev Schnaks (~Schnaks@p4FC4DAC5.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 02:04.09 | Dagmar | For one thing, "judder" is very slight. |
| 02:04.27 | mckenziemc | i don't understand how increasing the polling frequency would cause any significant decrease in performance, unless it's an extreme increase in polls / sec, -- in that case i don't see how it would fulfill the desired goal |
| 02:04.28 | Gagorian | That's not a deeply flawed conclusion, it's a matter of how you perceive it |
| 02:04.34 | Kraps | no Thrae :( |
| 02:04.57 | Dagmar | It's either redundant or outright incorrect to call it "pronounced judder" unless you're either a) talking about the result of screwing up a telecine conversion or b) mindlessly parroting shit you read on a forum |
| 02:05.00 | Gagorian | Dagmar: I and several of my friends clearly notice the difference, between smooth 24p playback and the judder |
| 02:05.00 | Thrae | mckenziemc: It's mainly there for people who encounter specific problems and not for "performance" use. Unless you're a Blizzard QA Tester and/or live right next to your realm's datacenter, the natural lag between you and the world would make the feature mostly useless. |
| 02:05.24 | Dagmar | For another, ther'es the whole pulldown and interlacing thing |
| 02:05.28 | Gagorian | Dagmar: It's not like it completely ruins your experience, but you can clearly see it |
| 02:05.51 | Gagorian | Dagmar: I never talked about interlacing, I just called the progressive scan 3:2 pattern as 3:2 pulldown |
| 02:05.52 | Kraps | Thrae: temp climbed to 68 then freeze with sparkly colorful dots all over |
| 02:05.54 | Thrae | mckenziemc: Do you know what Interrupts are? |
| 02:06.04 | mckenziemc | yeah |
| 02:06.11 | Thrae | Kraps: Yeaaaah that's not good. Try putting that all the way up to 100%. |
| 02:06.27 | Thrae | Kraps: Err, put *them* all the way up to 100% and then try playing WoW again. |
| 02:06.33 | Kraps | so its def the cards? |
| 02:06.44 | Dagmar | "<Gagorian> This isn't about how fast your eyes refresh [...]" |
| 02:07.00 | Thrae | Kraps: 98% chance it's one or both of them (are you using SLI?) |
| 02:07.04 | Dagmar | Eyes don't refresh. You're the first one to even connect those two concepts. This is insane. |
| 02:07.09 | Gagorian | Dagmar: I already said human eyes don't refresh |
| 02:07.39 | Kraps | Thrae: no, stupid thing seems to disable itself whenever it feels like |
| 02:07.47 | Dagmar | You were wildly off the mark about the use of hte term "input lag"... |
| 02:08.20 | Gagorian | Dagmar: How so? |
| 02:08.37 | mckenziemc | ok: i'm gonna make a guess here to test if i'm understanding this any better: so normally, when the keyboard and mouse send data, the computer sends those to wow and wow queues them up to process all at once, but with Reduce Input Lag enabled, wow will respond immediately to the interrupts? |
| 02:08.52 | mckenziemc | process all at once, once per frame* |
| 02:08.53 | Gagorian | Dagmar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag if that isn't exactly what I explained then... |
| 02:09.10 | Dagmar | "<Gagorian> Well, the end result is that both techniques have similarities, with 3 and 2 pattern" <-- more insanity on the order of seeing Jesus in a slice of pizza and falling down to worship the "miracle". The Rule Of Five trumps your puny 3 and 2 and at least has a more established history than "well there's threes and twos involved!" |
| 02:09.56 | Thrae | Kraps: That's because it will enable and disable itself based on whether the game supports it. Keep SLI disabled and try WoW with the fan at 100%. |
| 02:10.04 | Dagmar | You've shown a consistent pattern of being wrong about a lot of crap, and every time your rebuttal has been either denial, or claiming you meant something else, or insistence that your loony view is accurate |
| 02:10.17 | Dagmar | At least have the balls to be wrong. |
| 02:10.30 | Gagorian | I said I called the technique wrong already miles up |
| 02:10.30 | Amarande | Dammit, Dagmar |
| 02:10.39 | Amarande | Don't drag the good name of the late Robert Anton Wilson through this. |
| 02:11.01 | Dagmar | Amarande: He *claims* he had nothing to do with that |
| 02:11.16 | Dagmar | Ah doon' believe him for a second |
| 02:11.21 | Kraps | Thrae: scary thing is i rebooted twice, once in safe mode, and it was still wonky |
| 02:11.41 | Amarande | Dagmar, I guess you'll just have to take a vacation to Fernando Poo and find out. :) |
| 02:11.51 | Dagmar | Amarande: To where? |
| 02:11.58 | Amarande | You haven't actually read Illuminatus, have you. ;) |
| 02:11.59 | Kraps | Thrae: the fan is making noise yeah? |
| 02:12.01 | Dagmar | Amarande: If you're meaning I should call him out personally, I've already done that |
| 02:12.04 | Thrae | Kraps: Yeah that's because when you rebooted, RivaTuner was no longer controlling your fan and it most likely went down to something like 50% |
| 02:12.09 | Thrae | Kraps: Yes at 100% it shall be loud |
| 02:12.12 | mckenziemc | Dagmar: it might help if your responses had clarity, saying 'this specific thing is wrong' instead of 'no your aproximation is totally wrong' and giving another approximation |
| 02:12.15 | Dagmar | I caught him at a Dragon*Con a few years back, with a copy of the PD in my pocket |
| 02:13.33 | Amarande | Dagmar, you go to D*Con? |
| 02:13.44 | *** part/#wowuidev mitchnull (~opera@catv3EC944A1.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 02:13.45 | Dagmar | Amarande: When I can afford a lawyer, yes |
| 02:13.47 | Dagmar | ;) |
| 02:13.57 | Amarande | Heh, wonder if I've ever bumped into you. |
| 02:14.13 | Thrae | mckenziemc: Alright here we go -- "Reduce Input Lag will slow game rendering down and try to sync it with your mouse cursor." "It will prioritize your interface and its functions over the game graphics, a drop in fps is not unusual, normally this frame rate loss will be more visible to you in the world as opposed to instances." |
| 02:14.22 | Gagorian | Dagmar: Even if not my every sentence holds true as sometimes fingers work faster than though, my conclusions aren't deeply flawed. The entire conversation started about 3:2 judder, which you claim doesn't exist. |
| 02:14.23 | Dagmar | I've been to three and I kept a low profile at the last two because the first one was madness |
| 02:14.37 | Dagmar | Gagorian: factually incorrect. |
| 02:14.39 | Arrowmaster | what did you do at the first one? |
| 02:14.45 | Thrae | mckenziemc: This is, of course, in direct relation to the setting in World of Warcraft and not monitor "Input Lag". The first quote is from a blue and the second one is from a regular poster. |
| 02:14.57 | Amarande | I mostly go to the Wheel of Time and Dark Fantasy tracks. |
| 02:15.10 | clever | mckenziemc: i think wow has 1 thread monitoring the keyb/mouse constantly, event driven |
| 02:15.16 | Gagorian | Dagmar: Your conclusions are in your opinion absolutely correct and refuse to take into account that some people other than you might actually notice a difference |
| 02:15.18 | Thrae | mckenziemc: So specifically it increases the polling rate through software by decreasing the priority of the graphics which, in turn, effects the visible FPS. |
| 02:15.18 | clever | mckenziemc: and it has a flag for what buttons/keys are held |
| 02:15.21 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: Well, met Timothy Leary... Walked out on a lesbian orgy... Accidentally demonstrated more than once that I'm immune to conventional weaponry... that sort of thing |
| 02:15.26 | mckenziemc | NB: it's hard to keep track of everything going on in here, so i may be attributing responses to the wrong person. However, people are mostly giving vague responses |
| 02:15.28 | clever | mckenziemc: and then the main thread polls that between every frame |
| 02:15.39 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: Those are the things for which a statute of limitations doesn't get involved |
| 02:15.41 | mckenziemc | thank you thrae, i don't understand it yet but i'll think about it more, maybe it will sink in |
| 02:15.55 | clever | mckenziemc: if the key isnt held when it polls, it doesnt register, if your frame takes too long to render and you dont hold long enough, it doesnt register |
| 02:16.20 | Dagmar | Gagorian: I never claimed "3:2 judder doesn't exist" or anything like it |
| 02:16.33 | Dagmar | Gagorian: However, enjoy your time in the ignore list as I'm sick of dealing with your noise |
| 02:17.29 | Thrae | Seriously guys instead of letting your arguments become circular as they have become, go into ##hardware and those guys will finish your argument...well, they *may* answer your argument. Especially if delsol is awake. |
| 02:18.09 | Gagorian | I'm clearly done, if someone is unable to accept any other views than their own it's pointless to discuss anyway |
| 02:18.22 | Thrae | delsol is an engineer and Cowclops is a videophile. Both good sources of information and know more than any of us. |
| 02:23.56 | Kraps | Thrae: nope, temperature still climbs |
| 02:24.23 | Thrae | Kraps: Well it *will* climb when playing a game vs idle, but what did it climb to and did you encounter problems? |
| 02:25.18 | Kraps | it went up to 66 but i'm pretty sure it'll crash a 70ish :/ |
| 02:25.25 | Kraps | i closed at 66 |
| 02:25.30 | Kraps | it* |
| 02:25.45 | Kraps | ... |
| 02:25.52 | Kraps | i closed it at 66 |
| 02:26.13 | Thrae | Kraps: OK, well we also have SLI disabled now, right? |
| 02:26.33 | Kraps | yesyeah |
| 02:26.57 | fictive | SPELL_UPDATE_USABLE event takes no arguments? |
| 02:27.16 | foxlit | Outrage; enchanting-made wands cannot be disenchanted. |
| 02:27.45 | Thrae | Kraps: OK. So that means you have two video cards to play with. With the fans at 100% try using one and then the other. You'll have to manually disconnect and re-connect the monitor to the other video card. |
| 02:28.35 | Kraps | Thrae: from inside the box? |
| 02:28.37 | Thrae | Kraps: Let the temperature go as high as it wants and see if it freezes your system. After your system freezes, shut it off completely and wait for about 5-10 minutes before trying again (to let it cool off). |
| 02:28.58 | Thrae | Kraps: No. The connection to your monitor, which is on the outside of your computer. |
| 02:29.24 | Thrae | If it's DVI it'll most likely be a white-headed cable. If it's VGA/D-SUB it'll most likely be a blue-headed cable. |
| 02:29.28 | Amarande | foxlit: yeah, I've never quite gotten why that's the case |
| 02:29.37 | Amarande | after all, you can DE other stuff made with enchanting mats, like Dream Signets |
| 02:29.40 | fictive | !event cooldown |
| 02:29.47 | Amarande | of course ... yeah, you use a Dream Shard and other mats to make something you can DE to get a ... Dream Shard |
| 02:29.51 | Kraps | i cant do that right now :/ but soon probably |
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| 02:30.23 | mckenziemc | isn't Dream Shard from JCs though |
| 02:30.31 | Thrae | fictive: Events may internally take arguments but you can't trigger them in WoW Lua, so I'm not sure of your question. Does it pass on arguments, you mean? |
| 02:30.32 | mckenziemc | meaning you have to use someone else's goods |
| 02:30.33 | Kraps | Thrae: ^ |
| 02:30.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh`` (~funk@82.111.127.22) |
| 02:30.51 | Amarande | reminds me of a couple of Rikku's mixes in FFX ... if I recall, you could mix a Three Stars (which reduces all party members' MP costs to 0 until they either die or the battle ends) with a couple other possible items and her Overdrive bar to get ... a mix which reduces all party members' MP costs to 0 until they either die or the battle ends. |
| 02:30.52 | Amarande | Useful. |
| 02:31.21 | Thrae | Kraps: Well that would be the next test. I would also go to http://www.memtest.org/ like I said previously, burn a copy of Memtest86+, and leave it sit for about 12-24 hours. |
| 02:31.40 | cbreak | burn is waste |
| 02:31.41 | fictive | Thrae: hmm well I wanted to watch for when the cooldown of Starsurge was starting/stopping, so I assumed that SPELL_UPDATE_COOLDOWN would at least let me know what spell was ready or not? hmm |
| 02:31.46 | cbreak | don't you have a USB Key? |
| 02:31.58 | Kraps | ok thanks a bunch, i'll report back |
| 02:32.11 | Kraps | cbreak: yeah i'll do that |
| 02:32.13 | Amarande | cbreak: is USB flash drive boot support universal yet? |
| 02:32.20 | cbreak | ... it isn't? |
| 02:32.28 | cbreak | I would expect so |
| 02:32.41 | cbreak | worked for me every time I tried |
| 02:32.45 | fictive | doesn't that depend on the BIOS? |
| 02:32.54 | cbreak | BIOS is so PC... |
| 02:33.06 | cbreak | of course it does |
| 02:33.08 | Kraps | macfag |
| 02:33.17 | fictive | you talking about macs? I'm outta here :p |
| 02:33.46 | Thrae | cbreak: This is a Dell computer. It should support it but I don't trust it. Memtest-on-USB has good compatibility, but there's lots of other CDs/DVDs-to-USB distros (like Hiren's and UBCD) I've had lots of trouble with. |
| 02:33.59 | fictive | Thrae: do you have any suggestions for what I want to do? I basically want to monitor spells for when their cooldown is over |
| 02:34.07 | cbreak | I've only used Slax, it has one boot mode for memtest |
| 02:34.15 | cbreak | and that worked with the few computers I tried |
| 02:34.42 | Thrae | fictive: Well if I wanted to do that, I would take a look at the code in OmniCC. |
| 02:34.52 | fictive | this is true =) |
| 02:35.57 | Lulia | I would suggest looking at functions with Cooldown in the name |
| 02:36.45 | cbreak | isn't there /dteventtrace? |
| 02:36.48 | cbreak | or something similar |
| 02:36.59 | cbreak | just do that, fire a spell, and look what events happen |
| 02:37.10 | fictive | Lulia: already looked for those, didn't give me anything useful :P |
| 02:39.05 | Lulia | How odd, there's one that specifically tells you when a spell is on CD, I should know, I've used it. |
| 02:41.15 | Thrae | fictive: If you're just looking for when a specific spell becomes usable, there's http://wowprogramming.com/docs/events/SPELL_UPDATE_USABLE |
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| 02:43.00 | fictive | Thrae: well either the documentation for the arguments are missing or all I've been able to get that event to do is just tell me that _a_ spell is usable :p |
| 02:43.32 | clever | fictive: print(...) and see what comes up |
| 02:43.35 | cbreak | I would say, purely from the name, SPELL_UPDATE_COOLDOWN is most promissing |
| 02:44.26 | Amarande | cbreak: um, doesn't every standard-metal computer have a BIOS? :) |
| 02:44.32 | Amarande | and Macs use x86 now, so I'd presume they do, too |
| 02:44.33 | fictive | only gives me the event name: [03:44:19] SPELL_UPDATE_USABLE |
| 02:44.35 | cbreak | no |
| 02:44.47 | Thrae | fictive: OK, what about SPELL_UPDATE_COOLDOWN? |
| 02:44.54 | Amarande | (also, did they ever give up on that hardware verification thing to make sure you didn't buy OSX for a PC?) |
| 02:45.00 | fictive | ah, sorry, didn't see that one :) I'll try it now |
| 02:45.03 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraps (~chatzilla@ool-44c20717.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 02:45.10 | Dagmar | Amarande: Dpeends on how you look at it. Newer macs use EFI for booting, which is marginally and arguably not _quite_ the same |
| 02:45.33 | Thrae | fictive: I could have sworn you mentioned that event earlier, or someone did |
| 02:45.45 | Amarande | Dagmar: there's still a ROM that handles the very first steps of booting and manages basic hardware configuration, though, right? |
| 02:45.59 | Dagmar | Amarande: Yep. |
| 02:46.00 | fictive | hmm. didn't work :/ gave the same result |
| 02:46.08 | cbreak | not configuration |
| 02:46.18 | cbreak | it's not really interactive |
| 02:46.26 | cbreak | it handles the first stages of booting |
| 02:46.55 | clever | cbreak: then the 'config' is basicaly hard-coded into it and tuned to that mobo, with no UI to change it |
| 02:47.00 | clever | ? |
| 02:47.06 | cbreak | no |
| 02:47.07 | fictive | Thrae: I'm pretty sure this is my first attempt at that particular thing |
| 02:47.26 | cbreak | the operating system does the configuring |
| 02:47.35 | cbreak | there are some things that are stored in NVRam |
| 02:47.52 | clever | but the UI to edit it is missing, leaving it up to a working OS to edit nvram? |
| 02:48.07 | cbreak | you can attach a debugger if you want |
| 02:48.17 | clever | thats always handy |
| 02:48.27 | cbreak | I'd say it's almost never useful |
| 02:48.39 | clever | ive messed with the sparc/sun 'bios' before, and it feels like BASIC on the c64 to me |
| 02:48.49 | clever | a text based OS within the 'bios' |
| 02:49.04 | cbreak | maybe you can find an older Power Mac |
| 02:49.09 | cbreak | they had something called OpenFirmware |
| 02:49.14 | cbreak | was programmed in Forth |
| 02:49.21 | industrial | :o |
| 02:49.22 | cbreak | ... *shiver* |
| 02:49.23 | Dagmar | Sun had that same system, too |
| 02:49.25 | Dagmar | It was acutally pretty handy |
| 02:49.40 | cbreak | I never got it to do anything useful besides rebooting |
| 02:49.44 | Dagmar | You could acually remotely do a clean shutdown |
| 02:49.48 | clever | i managed to change the sun to booting from cd by default, couldnt undo it:P |
| 02:50.02 | clever | Dagmar: the most my dad ever did was stop+a, halt |
| 02:50.02 | Dagmar | ...and never login to the OS but rather login to the console port and access the BIOS directly |
| 02:50.08 | clever | and he thought it did a proper shutdown:P |
| 02:50.10 | Thrae | fictive: OK, so you have something like: local frame = CreateFrame() frame:RegisterEvent("SPELL_UPDATE_COOLDOWN", function(...) print(...) end) |
| 02:50.13 | Dagmar | IRIX as well with SGI hardware |
| 02:50.22 | Dagmar | clever: Jesus *shudder* |
| 02:50.37 | clever | Dagmar: yeah, its basicaly the same as yanking the cord |
| 02:50.52 | fictive | Thrae: correcty |
| 02:50.53 | Lulia | fictive: http://www.wowpedia.org/API_GetSpellCooldown |
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| 02:51.47 | Thrae | Lulia: fictive is trying to see what spell just got off of cooldown and is wondering why neither of the events give you that. |
| 02:51.54 | clever | Dagmar: ive been thinking about running myth on one of those sun's |
| 02:52.29 | fictive | Lulia: that would work if I had a timer that could check stuff every second, but I'm not that skilled yet :p just a beginner |
| 02:52.33 | clever | ive yet to get any linux to install to it |
| 02:52.42 | Lulia | You can run it whenever the event fires |
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| 02:53.07 | Thrae | Lulia: And what, loop through all spells in the spellbook? |
| 02:53.27 | clever | Thrae: loop thru the spells you know are on cooldown |
| 02:53.31 | clever | the ones your interested in |
| 02:53.59 | Lulia | Thrae: It was my impression that he was looking for a specific spell to start with |
| 02:53.59 | fictive | well, for all we know now you need to loop over everyone to even know if they are on cooldown |
| 02:54.03 | Thrae | clever: Yeah...still not as good as the event telling you which one just went off cooldown |
| 02:54.33 | fictive | Lulia: it would work in my case, but imho the API is pretty crap here if we didn't overlook something =p |
| 02:54.35 | Lulia | Of course, Thrae, but if it doesn't do that then it's of no help to us. |
| 02:54.35 | Thrae | fictive: Well there you go. OmniCC uses its own timers so I think that's pretty much how you do it. |
| 02:55.05 | clever | i'm guessing http://wowprogramming.com/docs/events/SPELL_UPDATE_USABLE tells you when a spell begins to cooldown |
| 02:55.07 | Lulia | fictive: I cannot explain that oddity, I'm afraid. |
| 02:55.21 | clever | you could keep a list of whats actualy cooling down and only poll those, when SPELL_UPDATE_COOLDOWN fires |
| 02:55.24 | fictive | one would think that an event for spells going off of cooldown would send the actual spell as an argument back |
| 02:55.46 | fictive | pretty weird :p |
| 02:55.46 | clever | i think http://www.wowpedia.org/API_GetSpellCooldown also tells you WHEN they are ready, so you could just check that time when SPELL_UPDATE_COOLDOWN fires |
| 02:55.49 | fictive | thank anyway =) |
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| 02:56.46 | Lulia | I think the major issue with that is the global cooldown |
| 02:56.48 | Thrae | clever: Yeah, unfortunately that method sucks even more since apparently SPELL_UPDATE_COOLDOWN can just fire every 3 seconds and often multiple times for the same spell. That doesn't restrict its usage, just makes it that much of a pain in resource usage. |
| 02:57.12 | Aurorus | Thrae: check out the healbot mod if you want to see spell cooldowns, etc |
| 02:57.12 | Thrae | They may have fixed the "every 3 seconds" bug from 3.3.5 |
| 02:57.21 | Lulia | It would end up firing dozens of times every global cooldown |
| 02:57.27 | clever | Thrae: if you keep a copy of the time its ready in lua, you can quickly check that without an expensive call to API_GetSpellCooldown |
| 02:57.45 | fictive | they could have separated global cooldowns from spell cooldowns with a boolean, though |
| 02:57.52 | Thrae | clever: Right |
| 02:58.03 | clever | then only check that when SPELL_UPDATE_COOLDOWN fires |
| 02:58.08 | Lulia | I've never known Blizzard to separate the two in the API |
| 02:58.08 | clever | for each spell cooling down |
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| 02:58.19 | Thrae | Aurorus: That's not really relevant here |
| 02:58.43 | Aurorus | nps |
| 03:01.01 | Amarande | Bah. zz_Coords is broken. |
| 03:02.10 | Amarande | ok, broker coords it will have to be. |
| 03:02.15 | *** join/#wowuidev mckenziemc (~mckenziem@dialup-4.246.250.238.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net) |
| 03:02.19 | Amarande | also speaking of broker, I really wish Aranarth would upload his addons to Curse |
| 03:02.29 | Amarande | they're like, the *only* addons I have to go to wowi for and maintain manually. |
| 03:03.04 | cbreak | curse is a jumbled mess of a web page |
| 03:03.21 | cbreak | it's more overloaded than a train in india |
| 03:03.26 | Amarande | cbreak: yeah, but when stuff's on curse I can quickly update via curse client |
| 03:03.52 | Thunder_Child | nebut not a train in japan |
| 03:03.59 | Thunder_Child | s/nebut/but/ |
| 03:04.10 | cbreak | trains in japan are less overloaded |
| 03:04.21 | cbreak | all people there fit within the enclosing space of the train itself :) |
| 03:04.50 | fictive | hah, amazing |
| 03:04.51 | mckenziemc | omg my computer is so much quieter now >< |
| 03:04.59 | fictive | SPELL_UPDATE_COOLDOWN doesn't fire when the cooldown is over |
| 03:05.12 | cbreak | sounds useless |
| 03:05.16 | fictive | very :P |
| 03:05.18 | Thunder_Child | cbreak: only because they push them in with large broomlike things |
| 03:05.46 | cbreak | Thunder_Child: I think they only do that at rush hour, and only in the movies |
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| 03:06.11 | Thunder_Child | cbreak: rush hour maybe, but not just in the movies |
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| 03:08.44 | fictive | SPELL_UPDATE_USABLE doesn't fire when the cooldown is over either |
| 03:08.46 | fictive | good stuff! |
| 03:09.01 | fictive | no wait |
| 03:09.03 | fictive | hmm |
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| 03:11.35 | Amarande | ok, it DOES break you out of iceblock by default when you cast it again. |
| 03:11.40 | Amarande | (BTW, do pally bubbles work the same?) |
| 03:12.10 | cbreak | there's an option in the interface settings to change that |
| 03:12.12 | Arrowmaster | dont think so |
| 03:12.33 | mckenziemc | is there anything i can do (besides replacing my harddrive/computer) to dampen the vibration of my hard drive, so that it doesn't cause the case to buzz? |
| 03:12.48 | Thrae | Amarande: You haven't tried MMO Minion? It works fine for me. |
| 03:12.56 | Thrae | MMOUI Minion, that is |
| 03:13.01 | Gagorian | mckenziemc: You can buy rubber suspension for 5.25" slots |
| 03:13.05 | Arrowmaster | they make anti vibration harddrive mounts |
| 03:13.05 | Gagorian | and install your hard drives there |
| 03:13.20 | mckenziemc | i'll check it out |
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| 03:13.35 | mckenziemc | cause this buzzing gets freaking annoying, and it's an intermittent thing |
| 03:13.55 | Gagorian | If you support your case with your hand does it go away? |
| 03:14.14 | Thrae | mckenziemc: "buzzing"? How loud is the buzzing? Is it louder than your case, CPU, GPU fans? |
| 03:14.29 | mckenziemc | the front panel resonates sometimes and pussing or shifting the panel causes the sound to go away sometimes |
| 03:14.54 | Gagorian | You could try adding some isolation between the front panel and the case |
| 03:15.05 | fictive | hm. SPELL_UPDATE_COOLDOWN fires if Starsurge is procced as instant cast, but not when the spell goes off cooldown |
| 03:15.19 | *** join/#wowuidev vince` (vince@adsl-76-254-21-136.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 03:15.22 | fictive | pretty useless |
| 03:15.33 | Thrae | mckenziemc: Take a look at https://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l2/g33/c113/list/p1/Ultra_Quiet-HDD_Silencers.html |
| 03:15.52 | Thrae | mckenziemc: The anti-vibration screw kit may be enough. |
| 03:16.10 | Gagorian | mckenziemc: I've been battling with resonating cases for a long time, the easiest solution for you mentally is just to buy a new sturdy case with built in rubber mounts for the hard drives |
| 03:16.10 | mckenziemc | i just took the hard drive out of the computer, pushed the sata cable through an open pci slot, and connected the hard drive (using a molex thing meant for connecting hard drives via usb) |
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| 03:16.26 | mckenziemc | buying a new case isn't an option : / |
| 03:16.47 | Gagorian | Yeah, I've been using this piece of **** for like 8 years |
| 03:16.48 | mckenziemc | short of money, and i'd have to buy a whole new comp, since this is a BTX computer |
| 03:17.10 | Gagorian | I've added so much padding etc it's rather good now, but it was annoying |
| 03:17.25 | Gagorian | A good case is an investment that lasts many years usually |
| 03:17.30 | Gagorian | But I'm cheap |
| 03:17.38 | Gagorian | If I'd do it again I'd buy a new case though :) |
| 03:17.44 | Lulia | Fictive, can I have more info on this spell you're tracking? |
| 03:17.52 | mckenziemc | now that the harddrive's out of the case and i feel no vibration at all when i touch the case |
| 03:19.17 | Gagorian | Yeah, a likely culprit is the hard drive.. although a fan might cause some vibration too |
| 03:19.17 | fictive | Lulia: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=78674/starsurge |
| 03:19.25 | Thrae | mckenziemc: 4 screw grommets costs like $0.50. If the HDDs have slots they go in with bottoms, you can use the strips which are $4 for 2. |
| 03:19.36 | Lulia | Hmm, that's exactly why I had to use GetSpellCooldown myself |
| 03:19.37 | Lulia | :P |
| 03:19.38 | fictive | I'm just trying to pop up a message when Starsurge is ready as a starter project |
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| 03:20.00 | Lulia | I needed to know if Starsurge was being casted or being procced by Shooting Stars |
| 03:20.24 | Lulia | But since instant casts are only signaled by SPELLCAST_SENT, I had to be sure it wasn't on cooldown when the request was sent. |
| 03:20.44 | Gagorian | Thrae: That's a good budget solution, even if it's not sufficient it's at least cheap to test |
| 03:20.58 | Gagorian | Although they might not reduce vibrations that much |
| 03:21.19 | fictive | Lulia: I'd be really happy to know how you solved this problem :) |
| 03:21.32 | *** join/#wowuidev Diao (vince@adsl-99-184-206-135.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 03:21.40 | Lulia | Well, it checked for the cooldown whenever a request for the spellcast was sent |
| 03:22.08 | Thrae | Gagorian: From my testings of weak cases, grommets do help a good bit absorbing some of the vibrations. I'm not sure about the strips. Overall it's a good solution if you can't use the 5.25" bays. |
| 03:22.10 | mckenziemc | i -do- have a free 5.25 bay so the othre type would work |
| 03:22.19 | mckenziemc | thanks |
| 03:22.26 | Thrae | mckenziemc: Yeah, then I would suggest the $10 one |
| 03:23.20 | Lulia | The only way I could think of doing your request specifically would be a timer, though it hardly seems efficient. |
| 03:23.40 | Lulia | Perhaps you might check and see how Power Auras does it? Though I'm sure the code would be a bit confusing. |
| 03:23.59 | Thrae | Lulia: That's how Tuller does it with OmniCC. No cooldown events used at all. |
| 03:24.20 | Thrae | On Wowwiki the comments for the cooldown events say they're unreliable. |
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| 03:24.22 | mckenziemc | oh yeah, and since this is was a prebuilt, OEM computer, they didn't even drill holes in the right spot on that 2nd bay, so i can't use it for external drives (the gateway drives have a thick bezel so the screws are further back) |
| 03:24.23 | Lulia | Tuller hooks into the cooldown frames |
| 03:24.40 | Thrae | He also uses a timer |
| 03:24.45 | Lulia | I'm aware |
| 03:24.49 | Lulia | I use them for my Rune CDs |
| 03:24.56 | Dagmar | Thrae: You want grommets and you want strips of rubber isolating the side panels. Those things resonate like a freaking kettle drum. Rubber and styrofoam on the sides of a case help as much as using low-rotation fans, and even more in the case of noisy disks |
| 03:25.35 | Lulia | What I'm saying is that if there's a more efficient way, it might be researched. But yes, a Timer is a viable way. |
| 03:25.38 | Thrae | Dagmar: Right. For cheap cases ;) |
| 03:25.59 | Gagorian | mckenziemc: If you decide to try the rubber grommets remember not to tighten the screws of the hard drive that much or you lose some of the benefit |
| 03:26.17 | Gagorian | I'd leave them really loose, so that it almost falls out :) |
| 03:26.28 | Dagmar | Thrae: For most cases actually. You have to get into some pretty serious cold-rolled steel (old school IBM-style heavy-ass cases) before the mass is enough to dampen the vibrations instead of amplifying them |
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| 03:26.38 | Iriel | Well, you want the screw securely in the drive, just not squeezing the rubber |
| 03:26.57 | Iriel | otherwise the screw just rattles out |
| 03:27.17 | Lulia | There's a few examples of Timers being used in my AddOn, Fictive. They're actually not that bad when you understand the basic concepts behind them. |
| 03:27.18 | Gagorian | Iriel: Particularily so if you move the case much :p |
| 03:27.34 | fictive | Lulia: could you link me? |
| 03:27.40 | Dagmar | Frankly you could probably hang 'em with big rubber-bands, but that would probably be considered unprofessional |
| 03:27.41 | Gagorian | But if you don't, it could just sit on a few strips of rubber |
| 03:27.59 | Lulia | http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info18564-PowerBars.html |
| 03:28.00 | Thrae | Dagmar: I must be either lucky or just buy well-made cases as I personally have never had problems from too much vibration. Starting with the Pentium 3 days or so. |
| 03:28.28 | Dagmar | Thrae: Might be you just don't realize how much of whta you hear is actually the sides of a case acting like a great big speaker box |
| 03:28.55 | Lulia | I warn you, my code is a mess |
| 03:28.59 | Thrae | Unless the problem has to do with the case's sound, in which case I don't care and don't mod for. |
| 03:29.02 | Lulia | And probably dreadfully inefficient |
| 03:29.39 | Dagmar | Large, flat metal surfaces... it's just a big diaphragm. If you can tap it wiht a finger and it doesn't make a very dull thump, it's probably magnifying vibration from inside the case into even more white noise |
| 03:30.35 | Thrae | Yeah I never got into that as I find white noise soothing. |
| 03:30.50 | fictive | Lulia: might be a problem with the mess, not so much a problem with the efficiency, I'm totally new to lua and the wow api :p |
| 03:31.08 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (~kd3@wowwiki/Kaydeethree) |
| 03:31.08 | Dagmar | If I need absolute silence, I've got 1/4" foam sheets I cut down and glue in (elimination of echo-amplification), and 1mm thick rubber sheeting that I'll slice into thin strips and put inbetween the covers and what they push against (more dampening from physical conduction) |
| 03:31.14 | Lulia | I... tried to comment stuff... |
| 03:31.16 | Lulia | .... |
| 03:31.19 | cogwheel | what possesses someone to ask something like this? http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1568015933 |
| 03:31.22 | fictive | hah, don't we all |
| 03:31.53 | Thrae | Dagmar: Considering there's tons of sources of waves, wouldn't the most effective solution be just to dampen at the ears? ;) |
| 03:32.05 | fictive | btw, I LOVE the look of your eclipse progress |
| 03:32.08 | Dagmar | cogwheel: lead in the paint used on children's toys |
| 03:32.25 | Dagmar | Thrae: Not when you're building a machine for someone to put in their editing studio, actually |
| 03:32.40 | Dagmar | I've had cause to aim for as close to zero noise as possible |
| 03:33.14 | Dagmar | Kinda also pillaged a bit of technology from some other manufacturers of "quiet" cases as well there |
| 03:33.30 | Lulia | My Eclipse progress? |
| 03:34.32 | Thrae | cogwheel: Deciphering the OP, it seems they're saying it didn't *used* to do that. Either that something in the default UI changed position/got bigger, or the scale itself at max is making things bigger than it used to be. |
| 03:34.37 | Dagmar | Of course on the other end of the spectrum, I've got my Ammo case |
| 03:35.04 | Dagmar | With an exterior surface that is 30% grille and 60% metal sheeting, it's the ideal vehicle for making as much damn noise as possible |
| 03:35.11 | *** join/#wowuidev voodoodad (~voodoodad@173-26-237-78.client.mchsi.com) |
| 03:35.17 | Dagmar | *whooooooooosh* |
| 03:35.40 | cogwheel | Thrae: sure, but how is that a "fail" that they need to either complain, suggest it's a bug, or ask for help, whatever the case may be... (i can't really quite tell what they *want*) |
| 03:35.50 | mckenziemc | thrae: in the past you couldn't put it that big :p |
| 03:35.58 | cogwheel | oh wait... they actually wrote "halp" |
| 03:36.02 | fictive | Lulia: the progressbar for eclipse rotation |
| 03:36.16 | cogwheel | what's to "halp" with? |
| 03:36.19 | Dagmar | "help me it's hurty when I stick my fingers in the toaster |
| 03:36.49 | Thrae | cogwheel: Use of slang/memes aside, I think the way to "halp" them would be to tell them the scale nows makes things bigger than it once did, as mckenziemc said ;) |
| 03:36.56 | Lulia | Ah, Fictive. Thank you for the compliment. |
| 03:37.40 | Thrae | You don't have to be cynical and think "UI Scale fail?" to mean the feature failed. Maybe they're asking if they failed to use it correctly...which they did. |
| 03:37.50 | Dagmar | No, you should probably speak their language and say that they are more biggerer than they were before. |
| 03:38.00 | Dagmar | That way you can be sure they'll understand. |
| 03:38.05 | Lulia | hugs Cairenn. |
| 03:38.12 | Cairenn | hugs Lulia |
| 03:38.36 | Thrae | Hey, if you spend too much time on the WoW forums you may begin to talk like that. |
| 03:38.39 | mckenziemc | shrugs |
| 03:38.45 | Thrae | Or on the Internet in general. |
| 03:39.28 | fictive | oh well, it's 4:40 am and I have to get up at 9am |
| 03:39.42 | fictive | thank you all for your help :) maybe we can solve the problem another time |
| 03:39.46 | fictive | good night |
| 03:39.55 | Lulia | Good night, fictive |
| 03:40.09 | Thrae | Dammit WoW forums, lemme login |
| 03:41.37 | mckenziemc | HOW I MINE 4 FISH? |
| 03:42.19 | Dagmar | I've got a mining pick enchanted with +5 fishing you can have for only 400g... since I likes ya |
| 03:42.53 | Thrae | cogwheel: Well now her reply makes me agree more with your cynicism. |
| 03:42.54 | mckenziemc | i don have 'nuff g! |
| 03:43.06 | Dagmar | I take Visa. |
| 03:43.29 | cogwheel | Thrae: -_- |
| 03:43.53 | cogwheel | my skill in Misanthropy has increased by 1. |
| 03:44.42 | Thunder_Child | so it's at 145 now? |
| 03:45.04 | cogwheel | nah... probably more like 80 |
| 03:46.20 | Amarande | "auctions expected: 35228" |
| 03:46.32 | mckenziemc | ?? |
| 03:54.11 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraps (~chatzilla@ool-44c20717.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 03:54.15 | Thrae | Hey, another neat addon to try -- http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/platebuffs.aspx |
| 03:54.23 | Kraps | HAIHAI |
| 03:54.58 | cogwheel | HAU2I |
| 03:55.05 | cogwheel | or sthg |
| 03:55.08 | Kraps | i find tht addon funny |
| 03:55.14 | Kraps | that* |
| 03:55.35 | Thunder_Child | Kraps: how much did you spend today? |
| 03:56.02 | Kraps | nothing yet, trying to troubleshot my pc |
| 03:56.09 | Kraps | shoot* |
| 03:56.17 | Thunder_Child | doing better than me |
| 03:56.57 | Kraps | by today do you mead before of after 1pm est? |
| 03:57.01 | Kraps | mean* |
| 03:57.12 | Kraps | or* |
| 03:57.19 | Kraps | damn keyboard |
| 03:57.43 | mckenziemc | PEBCAK |
| 03:57.43 | Thunder_Child | i mean 'todays' sale |
| 03:57.48 | mckenziemc | :) |
| 03:57.51 | Kraps | Thrae: yeah, i wont be doing memtesting anytime soon |
| 03:58.37 | Kraps | crash happens a minute after desktop load |
| 03:59.28 | mckenziemc | hmm.. out of curiosity, does there exist a 'memtest' type program for video card memory? |
| 03:59.50 | Thunder_Child | Kraps: memtest has a boot version |
| 04:00.00 | Thunder_Child | or you could just get hirens |
| 04:00.25 | Kraps | i didnt try to switch cards yet but they were both running at 70C idle originally so i dont see a different result happening |
| 04:00.54 | Thunder_Child | thats a tad bit hot |
| 04:01.00 | Thrae | Kraps: That's after you load your operating system, though. Windows uses an accelerated desktop *and* the video card drivers will be loaded which determine things like the fan speed vs clock speed. |
| 04:01.26 | mckenziemc | my card runs at 75C idle, 85C loaded : / |
| 04:01.50 | Kraps | and you dont have crashes |
| 04:01.55 | Thrae | Kraps: Running Memtest86+ overnight is still a good idea to see if there are any other problems with the system. If you video card can't even handle that, then it's almost near death. |
| 04:02.15 | Thrae | Different video chipsets and architectures have different temperature thresholds. |
| 04:02.40 | Kraps | running from boot? |
| 04:03.01 | Thrae | Booting off a Memtest86+ CD / USB Flash Drive, yes |
| 04:03.06 | mckenziemc | you put it on a CD-R and restart the computer, and the cd loads it |
| 04:03.33 | Kraps | F2 or F8? |
| 04:03.38 | Thunder_Child | F12 |
| 04:03.46 | mckenziemc | huh? |
| 04:03.51 | Thunder_Child | or what ever boot sequence is |
| 04:03.57 | Kraps | right |
| 04:04.02 | Thunder_Child | since it comes in different flavors |
| 04:04.19 | mckenziemc | i think it does the 'press any key to boot from CD' thing |
| 04:04.22 | mckenziemc | but i don't rememebr |
| 04:04.33 | Thrae | For Dells it's F12 I believe |
| 04:04.33 | Kraps | i might try usb |
| 04:04.43 | Thunder_Child | however if you have the time i would suggest hirens boot cd since it has multiple testing software |
| 04:04.45 | Thrae | Either F12 or ESC |
| 04:05.03 | Thunder_Child | or you can manually do it via bios by switching the boot order, but thats a pain |
| 04:05.09 | mckenziemc | mine's F10 :p |
| 04:05.14 | Dagmar | Sometimes named 'BBS' (boot block selector IIRC) |
| 04:05.28 | mckenziemc | just disconnect the hard drive :O |
| 04:05.34 | Jerub | hirens is good |
| 04:05.37 | Jerub | lots of good tools on it. |
| 04:05.38 | Kraps | wow thats a lot of software |
| 04:05.41 | Thrae | Thunder_Child: Well, we already tried putting both video card fans up to 100% and they still crashed, so I'm 99.9% sure Kraps will need to replace them. |
| 04:05.58 | Jerub | i also recommend using a ubuntu live-cd on a usb drive if you're doing a recovery, you can apt-get install extra stuff as needed. |
| 04:06.02 | Thrae | Replace one of them at least |
| 04:06.45 | Thunder_Child | yes, i would try one at a time, since it would be quite odd to have both fail simultaneously barring a surge event |
| 04:06.50 | Kraps | Jerub: everything else seems fine, video was still playing after sparkly technicolor crash |
| 04:07.21 | Kraps | audio rather |
| 04:07.33 | Thrae | Jerub: He doesn't need to do data recovery. If he did, I would recommend SystemRescueCD over a generic Ubuntu LiveCD. |
| 04:07.54 | Amarande | ok, maybe I don't feel so bad about chaos orbs not being available to scribes |
| 04:07.58 | Amarande | I get to run a LOTTERY |
| 04:07.59 | Amarande | w00t |
| 04:08.03 | Dagmar | Some large other type of fan blowing air at the crards will make it obvious whether or not replacing just a _fan_ will mean shit |
| 04:08.27 | Amarande | I'll probably make more money selling those scratchoffs than the chaos orb folks make from their stuff |
| 04:08.29 | Dagmar | It's probably more likely tta his PSU is starting to fail... Remember that these video cards are fucking power hungry on an epic scale now, and he's got TWO of the damn things in there |
| 04:09.02 | Kraps | Dagmar: after 2-3 years? |
| 04:09.10 | Thrae | Kraps: Memtesting and Hiren Boot-testing aside, you really need to isolate which of the two cards. |
| 04:09.16 | Dagmar | Kraps: Why are you even asking that? |
| 04:09.24 | Kraps | my face |
| 04:09.35 | mckenziemc | lol |
| 04:09.44 | Dagmar | Why do you think a PSU--which generally has 1-2 fans in it--would be that much less likely to fail than a fan? |
| 04:10.09 | Dagmar | Hell, unless you were picky about what manufacturer you went for, the thing was probably questionable when you got it |
| 04:10.39 | Dagmar | You've had 2-3 years. Most of this stuff is considered obsolete by then... whether or not the warranty would cover it is laughable |
| 04:10.50 | Thrae | Dagmar: The problem he's specifically having where it "goes technicolor" and with idles of ~75C on a 9800 GT (not the 200 series, not the 400 series, a 9800 GT), is 99% indicative of a card failure -- either the fans, thermal, or everything. |
| 04:10.54 | mckenziemc | irrelevant |
| 04:10.58 | mckenziemc | @dagmar |
| 04:11.05 | Jerub | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UqEhUm2B_8&feature=player_embedded |
| 04:11.09 | Dagmar | When a fan fails enough to screw you over, it generally stops working entirely or behaves in some other, very obviously flawed way, man |
| 04:11.26 | Dagmar | mckenziemc: Nonetheless I did spent 4 years working as an onsite repair tech |
| 04:11.37 | Amarande | Dagmar: like turning into a whirling spinning disc of DOOM that flies out of the PC and lodges itself in your throat? :) |
| 04:11.38 | mckenziemc | then you'd know to take things one at a time |
| 04:11.39 | Dagmar | @#$#@ s/spent/spend/ |
| 04:11.42 | Thrae | Dagmar: Usually it's a cap issue. |
| 04:11.44 | Kraps | come to think of it, one of the time it was rebooting even the pre-os stuff has the weird artifacting |
| 04:11.51 | Dagmar | Amarande: God I'd have paid to see that in some departments |
| 04:12.09 | Amarande | Thrae: aren't the 9800 and 200 series fairly similar on some models? After all the GTS 250 IS the 9800 GTX+, for instance |
| 04:12.31 | Dagmar | Kraps: Dude if you're telling us you're seeing video corruption on the boot up screens, it's too late. One of your video cards is already ruined. Figure out which one and chuck it. |
| 04:12.47 | Kraps | indeed |
| 04:12.54 | mckenziemc | facepalms. |
| 04:13.05 | Dagmar | I just threw out an 8800 that was doing that. It was very cooked. |
| 04:13.40 | Thrae | Amarande: Kraps said it's 9800 GT, not 9800 GTX+. And the 9800 GT is either a rebranded 8800 GT or a 8800 GT with a 55nm chip. |
| 04:13.51 | mckenziemc | video corruption can also be a ram issue. That's what happened in a computer i troubleshooted just recently. |
| 04:13.51 | Dagmar | There'll be no more cards from that manuf in my house for a few yesars |
| 04:13.57 | Kraps | i just cant do it myself, stupid chair thing is in the way |
| 04:14.08 | Dagmar | mckenziemc: You have many video cards that let yo ureplace the RAM? |
| 04:14.13 | mckenziemc | system ram |
| 04:14.32 | Dagmar | If the boot/POST text is ruined, it ain't system RAM |
| 04:14.56 | Dagmar | RAM badly fucked neough to screw that up will keep the machine from booting at all |
| 04:15.12 | Kraps | Thrae: can you link that card again |
| 04:15.23 | Kraps | i need to save it to gmail |
| 04:15.38 | mckenziemc | he didn't actually say the anomaly occured during POST |
| 04:15.42 | mckenziemc | he said 'pre-OS' |
| 04:15.42 | Amarande | I tend to favor EVGA lately, cards-wise. |
| 04:15.56 | Thrae | mckenziemc: That could be the case if there an IGP involved, but if it's giving problems before the OS is loaded than it would be extremely rare or something to do with some very weird hardware setup. |
| 04:16.11 | mckenziemc | which, if he's not a computer aficionado, could mean anythnig before the desktop shows |
| 04:16.42 | Dagmar | Well then we'll get him to run memtest86 on it and then later you can see that I'm right. |
| 04:17.00 | mckenziemc | like i said, one thing at a time |
| 04:17.08 | Kraps | i didnt use "BIOS" because i'm not sure thats the correct term :p |
| 04:17.24 | Kraps | but i think it is |
| 04:17.32 | *** join/#wowuidev Aurorus (~Aurorus@mail.enigma.net.au) |
| 04:17.46 | mckenziemc | you butted in while they were talking about memtesting anyway, as if they should skip that |
| 04:18.19 | Thrae | Kraps: It's not :) The POST screen has information from the BIOS, but there's no part of the boot process called "BIOS" or "In BIOS", unless you're configuring the BIOS. |
| 04:20.08 | Dagmar | I'm just used to figuring out what's going on based on what some secretary tells me over the phone. |
| 04:20.18 | Thrae | Kraps: POST (Power-On Self-Test) is also known as "Post to Video", so if it gets that far it means everything but the video hasn't stopped the system from POSTing. |
| 04:20.52 | Dagmar | ...anything but the dreaded morse codez |
| 04:21.05 | Adys | http://garfieldminusgarfield.net/post/2421874652 |
| 04:21.10 | clever | one of my computers has recently gone a little tits up |
| 04:21.23 | clever | i was browsing in chrome and it bluescreened, and ever since it cant boot from the hdd |
| 04:21.56 | clever | grub is still in the MBR and the FS is completely valid, but grub doesnt start |
| 04:22.42 | Thrae | Kraps: It goes Read BIOS (No Video) -> POST (No Video) -> Video (read VBIOS if necessary) -> Boot OS/whatever |
| 04:22.59 | clever | any ideads what could be wrong? |
| 04:23.05 | Amarande | clever: you probably will need to boot from a rescue CD and reinstall grub to the MBR |
| 04:23.16 | Dagmar | clever: lack of configuring grub correctly |
| 04:23.20 | Amarande | sounds like it's there, but corrupted? |
| 04:23.21 | Kraps | Thrae: /nod |
| 04:23.28 | Dagmar | Thrae: POST generally continues until sometime after video is initialized, man |
| 04:23.30 | Amarande | in any case, you'll need to boot from a rescue CD and then poke around to see what's buggered |
| 04:23.34 | clever | Dagmar: i'm not seeing any trace of grub stage1 even loading |
| 04:23.53 | Dagmar | clever: So what |
| 04:23.54 | clever | Amarande: ive had bad things happen in the past when installing grub, it toasts the partition table half the time |
| 04:24.05 | clever | Dagmar: that doesnt seem like a problem in the menu.lst file |
| 04:24.08 | Dagmar | clever: Stop trying to pipe the output of grub through dd then |
| 04:24.23 | clever | it happens when using setup/install too |
| 04:24.29 | Dagmar | ...or just use lilo, since it's much harder to screw that one up |
| 04:24.41 | Dagmar | Grub doesn't generally touch your partition table, man |
| 04:24.42 | Thrae | clever: Try testdisk and see if there's a problem with the MBR, and also to make a copy of the partition table in case fixing the problem makes bad things happen. |
| 04:24.44 | Amarande | Dagmar: LIL- ;) |
| 04:24.47 | Thrae | Dagmar: Depends. |
| 04:24.59 | clever | Thrae: of course i would back it up:) |
| 04:25.13 | Dagmar | Amarande: Okay so lilo is better at impossibly frustratingly gnomic error conditions, but it's still harder to screw up |
| 04:25.16 | clever | right now i'm using a grub floppy, manualy entering chainload +1 |
| 04:25.46 | clever | it was dual booting xp/ubuntu but ive long since removed ubuntu |
| 04:25.57 | clever | didnt want to break xp by removing grub so i just left the /boot partition in place |
| 04:26.11 | Dagmar | Thrae: On x86 hardware? Not really, man. That screen that comes up and tells you how many disks and serial ports you have is the final report after the Power-On Self Tests are done |
| 04:26.36 | Dagmar | ANything that's still doing it with the screen dark is usually a fucking relive |
| 04:26.40 | Dagmar | @#$#@ relic |
| 04:27.08 | clever | i'll have to use the grub floppy to network boot it and backup the partition table |
| 04:27.08 | Kraps | Thrae: so the other card could be good even if they both looked like they were running hot? |
| 04:27.11 | Dagmar | By that point it's done a splash screen that usually hides the RAM and disk roll call |
| 04:27.13 | clever | it doesnt like boot cd's |
| 04:27.50 | Thrae | Dagmar: Technically POST continues after video, but normally when we say "POST" we mean "POST to video". I could have put in "Boot Test vs Reboot", but then it would have to start branching. |
| 04:28.12 | *** part/#wowuidev Seerah (~Ryan@adsl-41-125-163.mem.bellsouth.net) |
| 04:28.21 | Dagmar | Well, I was going based on the sort of flag you dropped at "starts the OS" |
| 04:29.00 | Dagmar | Most people are going to consider everything that happens before the OS bootstrap to be POST (and by "people" I actually mean technicians for a change), even though PXEbooting has squat to do with testing |
| 04:29.11 | Thrae | I'm not trying to certify Kraps for system repair here. I'm just try to give him basic, useful information without getting hyper-technical. |
| 04:29.18 | Dagmar | Frankly. O |
| 04:29.37 | Dagmar | Frankly, I'm wanting him to just drop a card out and then run the hell out of the machine for awhile, swap cards, rinse and repeat |
| 04:29.41 | Dagmar | One of them's going to wonk out |
| 04:29.43 | Kraps | ah geeks, having the sillies semantics arguments :p |
| 04:29.46 | Thrae | Kraps: One card could be heating up the other. |
| 04:30.03 | Dagmar | Video cards can run hotter than you'd like to think |
| 04:30.26 | Dagmar | It kills 'em over time but generally doesn't result in them dying within minutes of crossing a threshold until they're already shot |
| 04:30.53 | *** join/#wowuidev Seerah (~Ryan@adsl-41-125-163.mem.bellsouth.net) |
| 04:30.53 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ |
| 04:30.54 | Thrae | Dagmar: I'm well aware of the Nvidia 9800 GTs thresholds of all three versions. |
| 04:31.05 | *** join/#wowuidev KarlKFI (~chatzilla@ip68-5-190-59.oc.oc.cox.net) |
| 04:31.16 | Dagmar | Thrae: Is he goin' significantly over them? |
| 04:31.24 | Thrae | Yes |
| 04:31.24 | Dagmar | I never saw the actual number |
| 04:31.50 | Kraps | yeah, whats the threshold? |
| 04:31.52 | Thrae | Last time he had 70C idle and up to 85C just trying to use the desktop. |
| 04:32.06 | Dagmar | Hmm.. Yeah that' a bit hot |
| 04:32.30 | Dagmar | both cards werne't reporting the exact _same_ temps were they? |
| 04:33.01 | Kraps | Dagmar: i guess one was idle the whole time? |
| 04:33.04 | Dagmar | afaik that stuff works like IDE master/slave stuff... One of the cards acts as the boss for both |
| 04:33.24 | Dagmar | Either way we're well into "test them one at a time" land at this point |
| 04:33.27 | Thrae | Kraps: It differs between the three versions and actual card design, but 70C *idle*, even 58C idle @ 100%, is way out of it. |
| 04:33.47 | Dagmar | 185F is fucking HOT |
| 04:34.08 | Dagmar | You could be almost be boiling freaking water once WoW is up and running the show |
| 04:34.17 | Dagmar | It just beggars believe |
| 04:34.20 | Dagmar | er belief. |
| 04:34.25 | Dagmar | Bleh. I'm going to get some smokes. |
| 04:34.26 | Thrae | Yeah, and one of the 9800 GT versions is only 75W (the Green Edition) |
| 04:34.38 | clever | Dagmar: and then light them on the GPU? :P |
| 04:35.04 | Dagmar | Somethings' way off the rails, and it might veen be software, for that card to get that hot while the machine is basically doing nothing but showing you a progress bar |
| 04:35.36 | Dagmar | clever: Gotta hit closer to 451 to light cigs off PC hardware |
| 04:35.40 | Dagmar | :) |
| 04:36.19 | Amarande | Dagmar: at the rate things are going, in a few decades PCs will take up rooms again |
| 04:36.29 | Amarande | the computer itself will be about the size of my tea mug, the rest will be the cooling unit |
| 04:36.54 | Thrae | Kraps: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127518 was the link I gave you |
| 04:37.04 | Amarande | and there'll be a giant klaxon and light on the front to alert you to get in vehicle and be at least 20 miles away within the next few minutes in case of cooling failure |
| 04:37.16 | clever | Amarande: LOL |
| 04:37.51 | Thrae | Dagmar: Ever see a computer with the hard drive duct-taped to the power supply? |
| 04:38.16 | clever | one of my cases actualy has a mount right there |
| 04:38.26 | Kraps | about Hiren, can you actually use all that software from the pre-os, err, interface? (yes i'm terrible) |
| 04:38.28 | clever | ontop of under |
| 04:41.01 | Thrae | Kraps: I also recommended http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824009266 for a new monitor to go with said video card, since your current one is 1650x1050 |
| 04:44.24 | nicoli_s | man the dead space 2 demo is so great |
| 04:46.00 | Kraps | thanks for your help Thrae :) |
| 04:48.24 | *** join/#wowuidev Aurorus (~Aurorus@mail.enigma.net.au) |
| 04:54.54 | Thunder_Child | Kraps: yes, or you can launch much of it from the mini-windows |
| 04:55.01 | Dagmar | I recommend against that monitor, actually. |
| 04:55.06 | Dagmar | 300 cd/m2 is kinda crap |
| 04:55.40 | Dagmar | The contrast ratio could be better as well (but maybe not at that brightness) |
| 04:55.45 | Dagmar | It's damn cheap tho! |
| 04:55.54 | taroven|Grr | Meh, I'm cool with my 1680x1050 + 1280x1024 monitors. Screw wider, just get a second. =P |
| 04:56.14 | Thunder_Child | i have 2....i want a 5th |
| 04:56.46 | *** join/#wowuidev Sixen (~Kevin@173-25-23-86.client.mchsi.com) |
| 04:56.52 | taroven | Totally. |
| 04:57.05 | Thrae | Dagmar: The cheapness is why I recommended it. |
| 04:57.21 | taroven | I will say that Acer makes a pretty decent monitor. |
| 04:57.39 | taroven | My big one's a... 223wbd I think? |
| 04:59.03 | Thunder_Child | i really want more than 2, but then i would have to get another card...and i know i wont let myself get something cheap :( |
| 04:59.33 | Dagmar | I've got an AOC (got a serious discount on it) and an LG and an Acer. Of the three the AOC has a massive contrast ratio (2000:1) and you can tell |
| 04:59.36 | taroven | I'd need a new mobo, cpu, and desk before I even think about a third monitor. |
| 04:59.55 | Dagmar | The LG is a lot like that Acer you linked, same stats I think |
| 04:59.56 | Thunder_Child | i dont have the desk space either....but i would make it work damit! |
| 05:00.01 | taroven | Or some seriously awesome monitor mounts. |
| 05:00.11 | Dagmar | Thunder_Child: Vertical wall mounts work in hutchtops, too you know |
| 05:00.23 | Dagmar | One of mine is just screwed through the cardboard backing |
| 05:00.30 | Dagmar | Well... particle board |
| 05:00.35 | taroven | Heh. |
| 05:00.36 | Thunder_Child | Dagmar: mine is a fail hutch |
| 05:00.38 | Dagmar | No deskspace needed really |
| 05:01.04 | Dagmar | Oh bummer. Last time I moved I decided to "end the problem" and bought two large corner desks |
| 05:01.14 | taroven | I use an adjustable drafting table for a desk, I'd prolly just figure out something to clamp the mounts to its legs. |
| 05:01.23 | Dagmar | Two days later the girlie decided I'd bought the second one for her to use |
| 05:01.52 | Xyphoid | and you realised 'yes! that's what i intended!'? |
| 05:02.22 | Dagmar | Well, that's what I *said* anyway |
| 05:02.42 | Dagmar | Id' really planned on the second one being more or less covered in wires and computery bits |
| 05:03.09 | Kraps | http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/2522-A-Nerd-By-Any-Other-Name |
| 05:03.10 | taroven | There's a certain joy to exposed connections. |
| 05:04.37 | Amarande | ahh, the paradoxes of guild rep |
| 05:04.45 | Amarande | I founded this guild, I'm guild master, and I'm ... Neutral with them |
| 05:04.57 | mckenziemc | yep |
| 05:05.11 | Iriel | Amarande: likewise |
| 05:05.22 | Iriel | Well, i'm friendly NOW |
| 05:05.23 | mckenziemc | <Recruit of Precipice of Oblivion> on the GM >< |
| 05:05.27 | Iriel | but I was neutral last week |
| 05:05.37 | Thrae | Dagmar: If Kraps wants to double his monitor budget, there |
| 05:05.42 | Thrae | Dagmar: If Kraps wants to double his monitor budget, there's http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/Displays/productdetail.aspx?c=usl=en&cs=19&sku=320-9270 |
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| 05:05.57 | Thunder_Child | i want this http://www.cinemassivedisplays.com/Quad_Gemini_24TW.php |
| 05:05.58 | *** part/#wowuidev Cairenn (~Spare@MMOI/Administratrix/Cairenn) |
| 05:06.00 | Dagmar | No. |
| 05:06.00 | Thunder_Child | a lot |
| 05:06.02 | Dagmar | Just... No. |
| 05:06.05 | Dagmar | Not Dell. |
| 05:06.22 | Thunder_Child | actually, dell is quite good |
| 05:06.29 | Thrae | Dagmar, are you saying that just because you don't like Dell or because you actually know anything about how this monitor's been reviewed? |
| 05:06.32 | Iriel | My 30" monitor is a dell |
| 05:06.33 | Iriel | it's very nice |
| 05:06.56 | Iriel | except for one quirk that annoys me (which is that it seems to ignore the brightness settings between power off/on, until I change it) |
| 05:07.04 | taroven | Their monitors are good, prolly wouldn't touch one of their prefab systems without a hell of a discount though. |
| 05:07.25 | Kraps | this computer i'm using has a dell monitor, and i think its much better than the acer my computer has |
| 05:07.38 | Dagmar | Thrae: I'm saying that because Dell is a dreadful company, their manufacturing process is nightmarish and inhumane to it's employees, their US sales practices are inhumane to employees, and you're likely far better off finding out whose design they bought into and buying THEIR product instead |
| 05:07.39 | Thrae | Yeah in the 30" 2560x1600 / 2560x1400 range there's Dell or Gateway |
| 05:08.07 | Dagmar | The "who" of that is probably Sony or LG |
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| 05:08.54 | Thrae | Dagmar: Except in the case of monitors, almost all of them are rebranded. You are usually buying the original monitor itself just with a "Dell" logo on it and a different case/stand design. |
| 05:09.01 | clever | Kraps: neat video |
| 05:09.09 | Kraps | good news everyone! http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.252458-Windows-8-Will-Be-a-Real-New-Push-Into-PC-Gaming |
| 05:09.26 | mckenziemc | microsoft = bad news |
| 05:09.37 | Dagmar | Thrae: That would be a great reason to give your money to someone else, generally speaking |
| 05:09.58 | Thunder_Child | Kraps: my only issue with that is thats what they said about vista/7 |
| 05:10.02 | Dagmar | Kraps: It would be nice if they'd make up their damn minds about whether or not PC users are allowed to play video games |
| 05:10.12 | Thrae | Dagmar: Except these manufacturers give designs that are exclusive to Dell, such as the 30" 2560x1600 market. |
| 05:10.21 | Kraps | Thunder_Child: i know |
| 05:10.21 | Dagmar | I somewhat expect they're going to just continue putting us off on the new Fable |
| 05:10.53 | Thrae | Not everything in Dell's store is inherently evil. I worked for them in two different contracting jobs. |
| 05:10.57 | Dagmar | Thrae: You think they're the only people on the market with that? |
| 05:11.17 | Thrae | Dagmar: No, but they're the best by far. |
| 05:11.24 | Dagmar | Thrae: How many people was it at their manufacturing plant that jumped to their death this year? |
| 05:11.33 | Dagmar | What was it... FOURTEEN of them? |
| 05:11.52 | Dagmar | Two of them AFTER the wages for everyone there were doubled |
| 05:11.56 | Thrae | Thunder_Child: For $6,000 I would expect less of a noticable dead-zone. |
| 05:12.24 | Dagmar | NEC has nice 30" monitors just like that |
| 05:12.41 | Dagmar | ...and none of their subcontractors have employees flying from the roof like fall leaves |
| 05:13.10 | taroven | Kraps: I love how the author's like "I wouldn't play Alan Wake with a keyboard and mouse"... Wonder if he's aware that most console controllers are computer-compatible in most respects these days if one is so inclined? |
| 05:13.11 | Dagmar | LG also sems to have one |
| 05:13.28 | Thrae | Dagmar: Could you please stop being so damn contrary? |
| 05:13.45 | Dagmar | taroven: Actually I think he might have been more referring to the appropriate interface for Alan Wake being a pillow and a blanket |
| 05:13.57 | taroven | Dagmar: True dat. |
| 05:14.23 | Thunder_Child | Thrae: you mean bezel-less edges and whatnot? |
| 05:15.22 | Thrae | Thunder_Child: Yeah. The pictures on the website just look like the monitors were glued together. You can even see the controls for each monitor on their bottoms. |
| 05:15.56 | Thunder_Child | Thrae: it's a mount, what do you expect? |
| 05:16.14 | Thrae | Thunder_Child: It doesn't come with the monitors? |
| 05:16.25 | Thunder_Child | Thrae: well yes |
| 05:16.37 | Kraps | taroven: i would use a keyboard and mouse, more story-driven games on pc plox |
| 05:16.39 | Thunder_Child | but it's not supposed to be a wall of monitors |
| 05:17.31 | Xzempt | Anyone know of a tutorial to teach you how to make buttons in photoshop that will work in an addon |
| 05:17.56 | taroven | Kraps: I generally prefer a controller where feasible, but that's just a comfort issue. WSAD controls are pretty painful for me if I'm playing for more than an hour or two. |
| 05:18.23 | taroven | I keep a wiimote and xbox360 controller around for stuff without too many controls. =P |
| 05:20.01 | Kraps | i have no consoles :( |
| 05:20.08 | Dagmar | gasps |
| 05:20.30 | clever | my newest console is an SNES! |
| 05:20.51 | Kraps | aww man |
| 05:21.05 | Kraps | lets the memories wash over him |
| 05:21.36 | Kraps | that was the only console i had |
| 05:22.05 | Thrae | Thunder_Child: Dunno, the monitors themselves cost about $1500, so there's about $5000 left for the mount and other features. Some of their more luxury options are interesting, like the traveling cases. |
| 05:22.20 | Dagmar | ...like the hookers to help you mount it. |
| 05:26.25 | Dagmar | Mmm.... hookers... |
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| 05:27.57 | Kraps | http://imgur.com/PHhMA.jpg Dagmar |
| 05:28.35 | Dagmar | Someone's making another Pedo Pan movie? |
| 05:28.48 | Kraps | idk |
| 05:29.18 | Dagmar | Holy crap I'd better hide... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5RB4NH6rVI |
| 05:29.20 | Kraps | Easy-A is a great movie though |
| 05:42.02 | Aurorus | yeah, easy on the eyes |
| 05:43.18 | Kraps | :D |
| 06:09.32 | karl_w_w | what's with the video of the old guy who needs to get out more? |
| 06:10.01 | mikma | cairenn: http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/oh_hai17.jpg |
| 06:10.26 | Cairenn | awww |
| 06:12.03 | mikma | cogwheel: http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/jesus16.jpg |
| 06:13.47 | Thrae | My male cat, Oscar, I now call "Tub Kitty" as he spends all his time in my bathtub. |
| 06:14.03 | Thrae | When I'm not using it, of course. |
| 06:15.00 | LebQzz | anyone played with QUEST_QUERY_COMPLETE yet? |
| 06:15.21 | airtonix | http://2.bp.blogspot.com/__OW1jAafCnQ/TPVFixgQlbI/AAAAAAAAA5o/wqSZZ6h9maw/s1600/funny-pictures-cat-threatens-to-edit-your-face.jpg |
| 06:16.01 | airtonix | http://www.zerodegreesart.com/zartists/tnichols/images/14.%20YOUR%20CAR%20IS%20LIKE%20YOUR%20FACE.jpg |
| 06:16.31 | Xzempt | Does anyone know of a tutorial that will walk me through creating my own custom buttons that I can use in my wow addon?? or atleast what to search for lol |
| 06:17.28 | airtonix | LebQzz, i haven't played that game yet, what's it like? |
| 06:17.43 | airtonix | sounds pretty short |
| 06:22.02 | cogwheel | Xzempt: if you know how to create a button, it's trivial. Just use the various Button:Set______Texture methods |
| 06:22.12 | cogwheel | http://wowprogramming.com/docs/widgets#button |
| 06:22.27 | Adys | LebQzz: yes, why? |
| 06:22.35 | Xzempt | i know how to add the button in the game, my problem is creating it with photoshop |
| 06:22.40 | Xzempt | i cant get it to work |
| 06:22.44 | cogwheel | oh... |
| 06:22.49 | cogwheel | exporting the graphic you mean? |
| 06:22.51 | Adys | Xzempt: cant get it to work? |
| 06:22.56 | Thrae | Try GIMP? |
| 06:22.57 | Adys | Xzempt: you mean saving it as tga or? |
| 06:23.01 | Xzempt | yeah when i try to get it in game its a neon green rectangle |
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| 06:23.30 | Adys | Xzempt: can you upload the button you're trying to use? use pastethat.com |
| 06:23.34 | Iriel | Did you exit the game completely after creating the file? |
| 06:23.51 | Iriel | Do you have the path to the file correct (if specified in lua, did you remember to do \\ for backslashes) |
| 06:24.08 | cogwheel | is it the correct dimensions? (powers of 2 on each side) |
| 06:24.45 | Xzempt | hmm |
| 06:24.47 | Xzempt | ok sec |
| 06:24.59 | Xzempt | keep in mind this is just a practice button till i figure out how to do it lol |
| 06:25.10 | Xzempt | http://www.pastethat.com/Laoyh |
| 06:25.55 | Adys | ugly as sin but should work |
| 06:26.07 | Adys | refer to what Iriel asked; check your path and the game status |
| 06:27.00 | Xzempt | its in the XML file |
| 06:27.07 | Xzempt | and the path is right |
| 06:27.22 | Xzempt | ill try exiting game deleting cache / wtf |
| 06:28.34 | clever | Xzempt: before you do |
| 06:28.38 | clever | Xzempt: check log/framexml.log |
| 06:28.53 | clever | that often has some usefull errors for my problems |
| 06:29.58 | Xzempt | lol @ ugly as sin, yeah i know adys. I didn't want to spend hours making the perfect button for it not to work lol |
| 06:30.34 | Adys | Xzempt: have you tried using the game's builtin textures? :p |
| 06:30.40 | Adys | might be simpler if its your first button |
| 06:30.48 | Xzempt | yes id show you a screenshot of that |
| 06:31.08 | Xzempt | but you guys dont want to see it cos its not an official server |
| 06:31.33 | clever | goes to find some torches |
| 06:31.47 | Xzempt | D; |
| 06:32.07 | Xzempt | I don't want to get in trouble here but i can link you in pm |
| 06:32.11 | Xzempt | if you want to see |
| 06:32.29 | Adys | id suggest avoiding mentioning its not an official server :P |
| 06:32.33 | Xzempt | ok |
| 06:32.34 | Xzempt | lol |
| 06:32.49 | Xzempt | can I pm you Adys? |
| 06:33.06 | Adys | im not good with textures, sorry |
| 06:33.19 | Xzempt | no i just wanted to show you the link lol |
| 06:33.46 | Xzempt | i have the default UI-Panel-Button-Up in the addon frame |
| 06:33.54 | Xzempt | and its ugly as |
| 06:34.23 | clever | local foo = [[Interface\AddOns\clever_archaelogy\X.tga]] |
| 06:34.31 | clever | local t = spot:CreateTexture(nil,"BACKGROUND") |
| 06:34.34 | clever | t:SetTexture(foo) |
| 06:34.47 | clever | that should be enough of an example to get it working |
| 06:34.52 | clever | i think buttons use the same SetTexture call |
| 06:35.13 | Xzempt | lol I already have all buttons showing in the addon |
| 06:35.17 | Xzempt | I just dont like them |
| 06:35.33 | clever | once your able to load an image into it like that, just edit the image |
| 06:35.50 | Xzempt | i think im messing up in the making the button procedure |
| 06:36.28 | *** join/#wowuidev haste (haste@hirano.ixo.no) |
| 06:36.34 | Seerah | button:SetNormalTexture() |
| 06:36.55 | Seerah | http://wowprogramming.com/docs/widgets/Button |
| 06:36.58 | airtonix | which linux kernel version was usb2.0 storage supported ? |
| 06:37.01 | taroven | Might want to SetPoint, SetWidth, and SetHeight as well. |
| 06:38.06 | taroven | airtonix: 2.4 on up. |
| 06:38.21 | airtonix | more specific than that ? |
| 06:38.24 | airtonix | 2.4.? |
| 06:38.46 | taroven | I stand corrected. 2.5.2. |
| 06:38.53 | airtonix | where did you read this ? |
| 06:39.05 | taroven | http://www.google.com/search?q=linux+kernel+usb+2.0+support |
| 06:39.06 | airtonix | id like to know when 1.0 2.0 and 3.0 begain |
| 06:39.11 | taroven | Third result. |
| 06:39.14 | airtonix | thanks |
| 06:41.02 | taroven | Not sure about usb3... kernel 3.0 apparently won't happen according to Linus. |
| 06:41.10 | taroven | *Torvalds. |
| 06:41.16 | airtonix | what? |
| 06:41.18 | airtonix | it already is |
| 06:41.45 | airtonix | wait what? |
| 06:42.53 | taroven | Considering that 2.6 is the current codebase, plus this (rather old but prolly still relevant) article - http://www.daniweb.com/news/story218605.html - all I got is a /shrug. |
| 06:43.00 | airtonix | i read that ubuntu lucid already supports usb3 |
| 06:43.12 | taroven | Kernel 3.0 ~= USB 3 |
| 06:43.13 | Thrae | He means Linux Kernel version 3.0, not USB 3.0 |
| 06:43.18 | airtonix | ok |
| 06:43.25 | airtonix | queue trolRage |
| 06:43.38 | Thrae | Although "<taroven> Not sure about usb3... kernel 3.0 apparently won't happen according to Linus." is rather confusing |
| 06:43.48 | airtonix | begin RAGE |
| 06:43.53 | airtonix | FUUUUUUUUU |
| 06:43.54 | taroven | USB3 support began at kernel 2.6.31 (sep 2009) |
| 06:43.58 | airtonix | thanks |
| 06:44.11 | *** part/#wowuidev Seerah (~Ryan@adsl-41-125-163.mem.bellsouth.net) |
| 06:44.38 | taroven | This is all according to quick halfassed google searches, I usually don't pay attention to kernel stuffs. |
| 06:46.12 | taroven | Thrae: Meant exactly what I said. I'm not sure when USB3 support came around in the Linux kernel, random mention of 3.0 made me think of kernel 3.0 so I decided to look it up. |
| 06:46.37 | airtonix | thanks for your effort |
| 06:46.43 | taroven | s/I'm not/I wasn't/ |
| 06:47.07 | taroven | Meh, two seconds of typing. You're welcome. ^_^ |
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| 06:51.51 | Arrowmaster | taroven: 2.5.2 isnt a stable release though |
| 06:52.13 | airtonix | Arrowmaster, regardless it marks the start of usb2.0 support |
| 06:52.15 | airtonix | however |
| 06:52.32 | airtonix | for purposes of "System Requirements" printed matieral (boxart & papers) |
| 06:52.47 | airtonix | which version do you think should be recommended? |
| 06:52.47 | Adys | you mean 3.0 right |
| 06:52.55 | airtonix | no |
| 06:53.02 | airtonix | at this point i just mean 2.0 |
| 06:53.14 | airtonix | but for devices that use usb3.0 i would ask the same question |
| 06:53.16 | Adys | what marks the start of usb2 support? |
| 06:53.23 | airtonix | kernel 2.5.2 |
| 06:53.25 | Arrowmaster | airtonix: what is this for? |
| 06:53.28 | Adys | ah |
| 06:54.19 | taroven | Honestly, I'd just go with "Kernel support for USB 2.0" and call it good - A fair majority of Linux users will know what their system is capable of. |
| 06:54.45 | Arrowmaster | yeah i wouldnt go listing a min version unless you have actually tested it on that version |
| 06:55.21 | taroven | With multiple systems of differing configuration, I'd add. |
| 06:55.32 | *** join/#wowuidev Krapsy (~chatzilla@ool-44c20717.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 06:55.34 | airtonix | taroven, that might be good enough 4 years ago |
| 06:55.56 | airtonix | but you now have people who use linux desktops that barely know how to power on the machine |
| 06:56.17 | Arrowmaster | those people wont know the kernel version then |
| 06:56.20 | airtonix | at least give the required info so they can ask someone |
| 06:56.40 | airtonix | "how do i find out the kernel version" |
| 06:56.42 | airtonix | etc |
| 06:56.43 | taroven | airtonix: True. However, the majority of those will be using Ubuntu, which IIRC has used kernel 2.6 for quite some time. |
| 06:56.44 | Arrowmaster | they will go 'i have ubuntu 10.04, does it work?' |
| 06:56.57 | airtonix | yeah but |
| 06:57.10 | airtonix | which distro are you going to print on your boxart? |
| 06:57.22 | airtonix | or are you going to just say : kernel 2.6 |
| 06:58.08 | Arrowmaster | many commercial software that support linux just list a few distros |
| 06:58.32 | taroven | Let's see... |
| 06:58.43 | taroven | Ubuntu has used a 2.6 kernel since at least 7.04 |
| 06:59.03 | Arrowmaster | if you want good examples go look at system requirements on raid controllers |
| 06:59.28 | airtonix | taroven, thats fine but only a specific version of 2.6 supports usb3.0 |
| 07:00.18 | airtonix | but yeah we could just list the latest major distros |
| 07:00.33 | Arrowmaster | 3 now? |
| 07:00.57 | Krapsy | Thrae: i switched the position of the cards, using only 1, still getting 75C in wow |
| 07:01.09 | taroven | Okay. Kernels supporting USB3 in major Linux distros... |
| 07:01.27 | taroven | Fedora 12 (released 11/17/09) |
| 07:01.59 | taroven | Having issues finding Ubuntu kernels by release, sec |
| 07:02.22 | airtonix | i think ubuntu 10.04 comes with 2.6.32 ? |
| 07:02.38 | airtonix | or is it .31 |
| 07:02.47 | taroven | Ubuntu 9.10 |
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| 07:03.15 | taroven | 10.04 comes with 2.6.32 |
| 07:03.23 | taroven | 9.10 marks initial support |
| 07:03.44 | Arrowmaster | which version are we looking for? |
| 07:04.48 | Arrowmaster | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian#Kernels |
| 07:04.55 | Corrodias | 3.0.0 |
| 07:05.36 | taroven | Kernel 2.6.31 is initial usb3 support, 2.6.32.23 is the nearest LTS kernel |
| 07:07.45 | taroven | Pretty much any (major) distro released after december '09 is gonna have a supporting kernel. |
| 07:07.52 | airtonix | yeah |
| 07:09.52 | taroven | <3's his Liquorix kernel. |
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| 07:35.46 | DWSR | taroven: I know Gentoo supports USB3. |
| 07:36.18 | taroven | DWSR: Gentoo supports anything, given enough hackery. |
| 07:36.30 | DWSR | s/Gentoo/Linux/, tbh. |
| 07:36.46 | DWSR | anyway, NIGHT |
| 07:36.52 | taroven | o/ |
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| 07:45.55 | Pwntzyou | Is there a way to intercept a chat message before it gets sent to the server -or- to detect when a chat message is being put into the chat box? |
| 07:46.21 | Adys | Pwntzyou: Watch over the chat input box |
| 07:46.33 | Adys | what do you want to do precisely? |
| 07:47.18 | Pwntzyou | wELL |
| 07:47.39 | Pwntzyou | Along time ago in BC... maybe in vanilla even... I had an addon that automatically linked item links for you if you typed the name |
| 07:47.50 | Pwntzyou | so if you typed [Cinderbloom] it would link cinderbloom |
| 07:48.16 | Fisker | gentlemen |
| 07:48.46 | Pwntzyou | That and I also thought it may be cool to do a spell check addon :3 |
| 07:49.13 | Adys | spellcheck would require loading pretty insane stuff through lua which is a terrible idea |
| 07:49.16 | Adys | but for what you want to do |
| 07:49.34 | Adys | hook the chatframe editbox keydown script, if key == "[" parse the rest of the text, match for [, use GetItemInfo on the name and voila |
| 07:49.37 | Pwntzyou | Yea, spell check wouldn't be so great :3 epic memory shits |
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| 07:49.57 | Pwntzyou | Hmm, ok I will look into that, thanks ^_^ |
| 07:50.16 | Adys | !api editbox |
| 07:50.16 | lua_bot | Found 42 possible matches for 'editbox'. Please be more specific |
| 07:50.20 | Adys | !api editbox:key |
| 07:50.21 | lua_bot | Could not find a match for 'editbox:key'. |
| 07:50.25 | Adys | !api editbox:onkey |
| 07:50.26 | lua_bot | Could not find a match for 'editbox:onkey'. |
| 07:50.30 | Adys | hrm |
| 07:50.35 | Pwntzyou | :/ |
| 07:50.59 | Pwntzyou | I have been trying to find a hook for it but haven't found one :( |
| 07:51.00 | Adys | http://wowprogramming.com/docs/widgets/EditBox |
| 07:51.07 | Pwntzyou | why thank you good sir |
| 07:52.13 | Adys | there |
| 07:52.13 | Adys | http://wowprogramming.com/docs/scripts/OnKeyDown |
| 07:52.30 | Arrowmaster | theres a better hook |
| 07:53.36 | Pwntzyou | The onkeydown hook will only fire if they are typing something right? It won't shoot off when just pressing buttons? :3 |
| 07:54.24 | zenzio | I'm confused about the difference |
| 07:55.05 | Adys | Pwntzyou: it fires if a key is pressed and focus is on the frame |
| 07:55.48 | Pwntzyou | Ah, it was a part of the class |
| 07:55.59 | Pwntzyou | Now... how do I get a reference to the chat box? |
| 07:56.11 | Adys | theres a global i think |
| 07:56.15 | Pwntzyou | sweet |
| 07:56.23 | Adys | like CURRENT_CHAT_FRAME, i dont remember; Iriel would know |
| 07:56.46 | Iriel | The current edit box? |
| 07:56.51 | Adys | yeha |
| 07:56.59 | Pwntzyou | ^ |
| 07:57.04 | Iriel | Let me find the "right" way |
| 07:57.28 | Pwntzyou | Sweet, thanks :) |
| 07:58.07 | Iriel | There's ChatEdit_GetActiveWindow() |
| 07:58.41 | Iriel | That should be what you're after |
| 07:59.12 | Fisker | i am the law |
| 07:59.54 | Pwntzyou | Ok, so I would use that to get the active chat box, and then do onKeyDown(self, "key") = function ...stuff... end |
| 08:00.08 | Pwntzyou | Or is that completely -not- the right way to do it |
| 08:00.13 | *** join/#wowuidev Jamash (~Jamash@99-92-174-69.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net) |
| 08:00.23 | Arrowmaster | onkeydown is wrong |
| 08:00.29 | Pwntzyou | ah |
| 08:00.55 | Arrowmaster | you want to do it on OnTextChanged probably |
| 08:01.02 | Pwntzyou | Hmm |
| 08:01.19 | Pwntzyou | Yea, that would be better huh |
| 08:02.01 | Iriel | You'd want to HOOK it |
| 08:02.03 | Iriel | not set it |
| 08:02.06 | Pwntzyou | Though-- it would be better if I could see and possibly edit a chat message before it goes to the server to enable this to work for macros... but I doubt that is possible |
| 08:02.08 | Iriel | otherwise you'll taint stuff |
| 08:02.45 | Arrowmaster | you want to prehook it which taints |
| 08:04.11 | Arrowmaster | ChatEdit_ParseText() might also be another option to hook |
| 08:08.06 | Arrowmaster | actually i dont think you want to taint that and securehooking it might not be enough so OnTextChanged is probably best |
| 08:12.52 | zenzio | tainted love! |
| 08:17.01 | *** join/#wowuidev Elkano (~elkano@pool018.vpn.uni-saarland.de) |
| 08:17.02 | *** join/#wowuidev Elkano (~elkano@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Elkano) |
| 08:20.22 | *** join/#wowuidev Elkano (~elkano@pool018.vpn.uni-saarland.de) |
| 08:20.22 | *** join/#wowuidev Elkano (~elkano@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Elkano) |
| 08:22.02 | mckenziemc | ~trout elkano |
| 08:22.02 | purl | ACTION slaps elkano around a bit with a large trout! |
| 08:22.55 | *** join/#wowuidev stolenlegacy (~stolenleg@chello213047049244.5.sc-graz.chello.at) |
| 08:25.59 | *** join/#wowuidev Caleb| (~caleb@fibhost-66-83-191.fibernet.hu) |
| 08:28.36 | Fisker | Shadowed |
| 08:30.05 | mckenziemc | fiskered |
| 08:30.06 | mitch0 | fisker: uninstalled bazooka yet? |
| 08:30.10 | Fisker | ~seen Shadowed |
| 08:30.12 | purl | shadowed is currently on #wowuidev #wowace. Has said a total of 49 messages. Is idling for 9h 29m 59s, last said: 'addon-wise'. |
| 08:30.29 | Fisker | i uninstalled your mom mitch0 |
| 08:31.41 | Xzempt | O; |
| 08:32.15 | mitch0 | any working HN_FlightMasters like addon out there? |
| 08:32.31 | Fisker | what does it do? |
| 08:32.35 | mckenziemc | Fisker: i uninstalled your face. It looks so much better now |
| 08:32.42 | airtonix | Fisker, i once accidentally your mums dogs face |
| 08:32.56 | mitch0 | fisker: shows flightmasters on the map, connects them with lines |
| 08:33.03 | airtonix | five memes in one! |
| 08:33.32 | Fisker | on the mainmap or something? |
| 08:33.43 | mitch0 | yeah |
| 08:33.47 | airtonix | hoho |
| 08:34.17 | Fisker | i disagree with that mitch0 |
| 08:34.30 | Xzempt | http://www.explosm.net/db/files/Comics/Dave/comickissonthelips1.png |
| 08:34.39 | airtonix | NSFW |
| 08:36.15 | Fisker | how is that ever nsfw? |
| 08:36.24 | airtonix | not safe for weebo |
| 08:36.34 | Fisker | *trollface* |
| 08:36.53 | airtonix | pwnts |
| 08:37.59 | *** join/#wowuidev TC (~chatzilla@c-069-063-214-148.sd2.redwire.net) |
| 08:38.20 | mckenziemc | "...and Unlock the Full Power of the Ten Ton Hammer: ... -Create PlayerScore Scoreboards (Watchlists) of your Friends -Manually refresh PlayerScore characters for the freshest data" |
| 08:38.22 | airtonix | i wish the nautilus location bar had history like firefox and chrome do |
| 08:38.59 | airtonix | mckenziemc, so your boards are empty then ? |
| 08:39.23 | mckenziemc | yes, because i'm not paying for that shit :p |
| 08:39.43 | airtonix | yeah fucking tth |
| 08:39.50 | *** join/#wowuidev robokitty (~roboe@50A2E6C0.flatrate.dk) |
| 08:39.54 | Fisker | there are zombie goasts in my house |
| 08:40.07 | airtonix | r u ascared? |
| 08:40.20 | airtonix | or hungry |
| 08:40.43 | mckenziemc | zombie goats? |
| 08:40.53 | airtonix | he left out the "e" |
| 08:41.48 | mckenziemc | i like 'zombie goats' better |
| 08:41.59 | airtonix | you would. you sicko |
| 08:43.22 | mitch0 | tip of the day: it's not enough to switch talents. healing in dps gear is suboptimal |
| 08:43.48 | Fisker | what if you are a balance druid? |
| 08:44.05 | mitch0 | then you look ugly most of the time |
| 08:44.06 | airtonix | then you fail |
| 08:44.19 | mitch0 | I never understood balance druids |
| 08:44.35 | zid | they give nice raid buffs |
| 08:44.37 | mitch0 | or elemental shamans for that metter |
| 08:44.39 | Fisker | what about elemental shamans? |
| 08:44.40 | mitch0 | matter |
| 08:44.40 | Fisker | :( |
| 08:44.41 | airtonix | it's an accounting thing |
| 08:44.43 | zid | ele shaman are great |
| 08:44.53 | Fisker | THEN WHAT ABOUT SHADOW PRIEST... oh wait |
| 08:44.55 | mckenziemc | tip of the day: get an ldb based spec/gear/etc swapping plugin for bazooka |
| 08:45.00 | airtonix | Fisker, qqmoar |
| 08:45.12 | mitch0 | mckenziemc: nah, bazooka is a resource hog |
| 08:45.19 | airtonix | yeah its crap |
| 08:45.20 | mitch0 | also, my gear changes too fast |
| 08:46.23 | mitch0 | speaking of bazooka: is anyone else (beside the ticket creator) even remotely interested in gradient backgrounds for bazooka? (something like the stuff in kgpanels) |
| 08:46.41 | robokitty | So, Fisker, snowed in yet? |
| 08:47.14 | Fisker | never were |
| 08:47.49 | robokitty | pft |
| 08:49.17 | airtonix | i know. he is a lecherous liar! |
| 08:49.52 | mckenziemc | fiskers fisker in the fisker-fisker |
| 08:50.03 | airtonix | screenshot! |
| 08:50.43 | airtonix | i free my baboons now. mckenziemc will do my fisker-bidding |
| 09:02.02 | mckenziemc | O.o |
| 09:02.28 | mckenziemc | when i tried logging into one account i got Unable To Connect both tries, but the second account worked fine |
| 09:06.18 | *** join/#wowuidev the-golem (~Darrin@c-24-23-41-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 09:11.47 | *** join/#wowuidev mckenziemc1 (~mckenziem@dialup-4.246.253.195.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net) |
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| 09:33.35 | airtonix | lol tron is opensource |
| 09:44.30 | Fisker | your mom is open source |
| 09:57.30 | mikma | FFFFFFIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSKKKKKKKKKKK |
| 10:07.09 | mitch0 | mckenziemc: do you have some recommendation for talent/gear switch addon (preferably one that does both at once) |
| 10:09.41 | *** join/#wowuidev Hjalte (~chatzilla@cpe.ge-0-2-0-835.arcnqu2.customer.tele.dk) |
| 10:15.42 | Fisker | Alram |
| 10:15.49 | Fisker | my nose bleeds |
| 10:25.32 | Alram | ok |
| 10:34.46 | karl_w_w | everybody's nose bleeds at one time or another |
| 10:39.40 | airtonix | Fisker, suggestion: cease looking at porn for a few minutes |
| 10:41.04 | karl_w_w | the doctor said I wouldn't have so many nose bleeds if I kept my finger outta there |
| 10:46.37 | fictive | airtonix: the new tron movie O_o ? |
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| 10:59.10 | *** join/#wowuidev sylvanaar_work (~sylvanaar@tut.qvssoftware.com) |
| 10:59.33 | sylvanaar_work | good morning |
| 11:00.36 | *** join/#wowuidev Zasurus (~Zasurus@78-105-174-15.zone3.bethere.co.uk) |
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| 11:07.51 | zenzio | http://notalwaysright.com/cant-count-on-his-trust/9208 |
| 11:09.54 | *** join/#wowuidev Random (~Denial@unaffiliated/windaria) |
| 11:12.23 | LebQzz | any way to retrieve the localization a client uses? |
| 11:13.29 | Computerpunk_ | So I herd the new Cataclysm Hero Class is called Ghoul. |
| 11:13.40 | sylvanaar_work | ? |
| 11:13.44 | Computerpunk_ | It comes packed with its own Death Knight pet. |
| 11:13.49 | Zasurus | LOL |
| 11:14.00 | Zasurus | Do you feel the Ghoul is over powered? |
| 11:14.07 | Computerpunk_ | No, but it does more DPS than the DK himself. |
| 11:14.21 | *** join/#wowuidev Kalroth (kalroth@3e6be499.rev.stofanet.dk) |
| 11:14.39 | Zasurus | I always felt that is how the hunter and pet should have been |
| 11:15.06 | Computerpunk_ | Man, don't pick on Hunters. |
| 11:15.15 | Computerpunk_ | Marksmanship is nerfed to the ground for PvE. |
| 11:15.33 | Computerpunk_ | I had to respec just to increase my DPS by 4k. |
| 11:15.37 | zenzio | !api locale |
| 11:15.37 | lua_bot | Found 4 possible results for 'locale': GetLocale, GetExistingLocales, GetAvailableLocales, os.setlocale |
| 11:15.46 | zenzio | !api GetLocale |
| 11:15.46 | lua_bot | GetLocale: Returns a code indicating the localization currently in use by the client (http://wowprogramming.com/docs/api/GetLocale) |
| 11:15.54 | zenzio | LebQzz: ^ |
| 11:16.27 | LebQzz | GetLocale returns enUS on my enGB client |
| 11:16.43 | LebQzz | GetExistingLocales returns enGB |
| 11:16.51 | Computerpunk_ | Blizz tricked you. |
| 11:17.30 | zenzio | I don't think enUS and enGB have any language-wise differences |
| 11:17.33 | zenzio | in WoW |
| 11:18.16 | LebQzz | but GetAvailableLocales doesnt even have enUS lol |
| 11:18.37 | LebQzz | then why arent we using enUS client with just eu connection |
| 11:19.41 | Zasurus | OK what is wrong with this?: http://pastebin.com/dDzG6aLe |
| 11:20.17 | Zasurus | I can't set the position of the frame it keeps jumping back to the center when I use SetPoint() :( No mater WHAT I feed in |
| 11:20.46 | zenzio | Zasurus: when you SetPoint() where? Line 19 in your paste? |
| 11:20.48 | zid | lol |
| 11:20.49 | Zasurus | I have even tried adding lines 11-20 to make it movable and that works (it moves) but the second line 19 is run it jumps back center |
| 11:20.58 | zid | Rom'Ogg Skullcracker casts chains of woe *DC* |
| 11:21.11 | zenzio | Zasurus: because before line 19, you'd want a ClearAllPoints() I think |
| 11:21.38 | Zasurus | Oh I did have one must have cut it out when making the paste |
| 11:21.59 | zenzio | hm |
| 11:22.18 | Zasurus | No didn't make a difference |
| 11:22.39 | Zasurus | Ignoring lines 11+ the first setPoint() doesn't work ether :( |
| 11:22.58 | zenzio | Zasurus: look at GetPoint documentation, you need to pass an index to GetPoint() |
| 11:23.07 | zenzio | http://wowprogramming.com/docs/widgets/Region/GetPoint |
| 11:23.15 | Zasurus | The get point works fine |
| 11:23.26 | Zasurus | It pulls back the point its the setpoint that doesn't work :( |
| 11:23.39 | zenzio | well then I'm out of ideas |
| 11:23.44 | Zasurus | Rats |
| 11:23.47 | Torhal | Why are you setting the anchors after you move it? Moving it should do that... |
| 11:23.59 | Zasurus | I am testing |
| 11:24.06 | Zasurus | It is the setting that I can't do |
| 11:24.30 | Zasurus | Look at line 3 |
| 11:24.54 | Zasurus | That sets the point (I keep changing the values and it alwasy apears in the center) |
| 11:24.58 | Torhal | I'm saying: In your OnMouseUp handler, just call StopMovingOrSizing |
| 11:25.08 | Torhal | You're trying to re-anchor from there |
| 11:25.13 | Torhal | And that's the problem. |
| 11:25.27 | Zasurus | Torhal: ignore that for now line 11+ was to test why line 3 didn't work |
| 11:25.31 | zenzio | http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/political-pictures-untitled.jpg - \o/ |
| 11:26.53 | zenzio | Zasurus: did you try using some different anchor points instead of "CENTER"? I'm having trouble understanding what your problem is |
| 11:26.57 | Torhal | Dunno. I always set width/height and then anchor |
| 11:27.28 | Torhal | And clearing points directly after frame creation is unnecessary - it has no anchor points |
| 11:27.38 | Zasurus | Zenzio: Yer I tried ("TOPLEFT", UIParent, "TOPLEFT",0,0) |
| 11:27.46 | Zasurus | Torhal: k |
| 11:27.48 | zenzio | and it still ends up in the center? |
| 11:27.52 | Zasurus | Yup |
| 11:28.00 | zenzio | did you try setting the width and height before anchoring it? |
| 11:29.28 | zid | Right, skullcracker is bugged |
| 11:29.49 | zid | chains of woe sends me through the floor then I get disconnected |
| 11:30.25 | Zasurus | K http://pastebin.com/Q96bwmvt that is my new one... still same problem :( Apears in the center |
| 11:32.29 | Zasurus | Woops left self in: http://pastebin.com/bALDa6eG |
| 11:32.48 | zid | "Rom'ogg Bonecrusher's Chains of Woe should no longer push players under the world." |
| 11:32.53 | zid | Bullshit blizz >_< |
| 11:33.33 | Zasurus | As far as I know that last paastebin should make a spade in the top left corner? But it makes it in the center :( |
| 11:33.46 | zenzio | zid: "should", not "does" |
| 11:34.47 | Zasurus | :( |
| 11:34.50 | zid | zenzio: ehehe |
| 11:35.01 | zenzio | Zasurus: hold on... "NewInfoButton.MainTexture = self.NewInfoButton" - are these two "NewInfoButton"s different buttons, or are they meant to be the same one? |
| 11:35.13 | zenzio | (line 5) |
| 11:35.21 | Zasurus | Yer http://pastebin.com/bALDa6eG corrected ;0 |
| 11:35.41 | zid | I take it WoW's lua doesn't have anything like exec() ? |
| 11:35.51 | zid | online editing would be fun if it did |
| 11:36.18 | orgevo | you might enjoy the WoWLua addon. |
| 11:36.25 | Zasurus | yer I love wowlua :) |
| 11:36.43 | zid | ooh, it has interpreter, sweet |
| 11:36.45 | Zasurus | makes this stuff much easyer (but I can't work this frame crap out thought! LOL) |
| 11:36.53 | zid | they implemented exec functionality themselves? |
| 11:37.04 | zid | lua to lua interpreter :P |
| 11:37.06 | Zasurus | Yer pretty much |
| 11:37.33 | orgevo | no it's just a function that you can call in wow's lua implementation |
| 11:37.38 | zenzio | I'm at work so I can't actually test this, but I can't spot any obvious errors in your code |
| 11:37.43 | orgevo | loads a string as a lua stream |
| 11:37.55 | zid | so it has exec then, cool |
| 11:38.11 | zid | orgevo: every other language calls that functionality 'exec', so I called it that, does lua have its own term? |
| 11:38.18 | orgevo | that's the meat of what wowlua does. of course, it does error handling and makes a nice sandbox for you and all |
| 11:38.36 | orgevo | beats me |
| 11:39.01 | zid | so it's just a text editor then |
| 11:39.02 | orgevo | i'm a C++ programmer. Just learned lua to write addons for WoW :P |
| 11:39.16 | zid | C++ has no exec, thankfully |
| 11:39.45 | orgevo | not unless you can type in pure binary, heh |
| 11:39.56 | zid | orgevo: that isn't what exec does though |
| 11:39.59 | *** join/#wowuidev Cairenn (~Spare@MMOI/Administratrix/Cairenn) |
| 11:39.59 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Cairenn] by ChanServ |
| 11:40.12 | zid | exec is run-time execution of strings |
| 11:40.29 | zid | you run into the halting problem if you try and do it in C++ |
| 11:41.04 | orgevo | the halting problem? |
| 11:41.19 | orgevo | oh yeah the halting problem...that old guy :P |
| 11:41.21 | zid | yes, alan turing wrote a paper on it |
| 11:42.01 | Arrowmaster | !api LoadString |
| 11:42.01 | lua_bot | Found 2 possible results for 'LoadString': luaL_loadstring, loadstring |
| 11:42.11 | Arrowmaster | !api ^LoadString |
| 11:42.12 | lua_bot | Documentation for 'loadstring' can be found at http://www.lua.org/manual/5.1/manual.html#pdf-loadstring |
| 11:42.16 | Arrowmaster | ^^^ |
| 11:43.20 | *** join/#wowuidev TC-Work (~chatzilla@c-069-063-214-148.sd2.redwire.net) |
| 11:43.25 | LebQzz | hmm |
| 11:43.39 | LebQzz | any template to call to get the top bar from char and guild frames? |
| 11:43.51 | orgevo | ah, I'm self-taught - never took any cs courses. It's likely that I'm familiar with the actual problem itself, just not the name or where it's from; that's happened a lot to me, heh |
| 11:43.53 | LebQzz | i need to add some text on top of guild frame ;P |
| 11:49.40 | *** join/#wowuidev Wobin (~quassel@124-168-59-253.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 11:51.37 | orgevo | use /framestack to get the name of the frame that corresponds to the header bar, if there is a separate one |
| 11:52.10 | *** join/#wowuidev boshi23 (~boshi23@c-68-81-3-76.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 11:53.10 | zenzio | Cairenn: http://graphjam.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/funny-graphs49.png |
| 11:53.23 | Cairenn | lol |
| 11:55.22 | Pwntzyou | !api editbox |
| 11:55.22 | lua_bot | Found 42 possible matches for 'editbox'. Please be more specific |
| 11:55.25 | Pwntzyou | Y_Y |
| 11:55.31 | Pwntzyou | !api chatedit |
| 11:55.32 | lua_bot | Could not find a match for 'chatedit'. |
| 11:55.47 | *** join/#wowuidev solo|work (~solowork@c-69-245-130-138.hsd1.in.comcast.net) |
| 11:56.56 | Pwntzyou | Is there a list of global variables I can look at |
| 11:57.07 | zenzio | what are you looking for? |
| 11:57.27 | Pwntzyou | The main chatwindow |
| 11:57.29 | Pwntzyou | :3 |
| 11:58.08 | Arrowmaster | ~framexml |
| 11:58.08 | purl | Download FrameXML code/art from http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?locale=en_US&articleId=21466 ; or view it online at http://github.com/tekkub/wow-ui-source , http://wowprogramming.com/utils/xmlbrowser or http://wow.go-hero.net/framexml |
| 11:58.44 | Pwntzyou | =o |
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| 12:05.28 | *** join/#wowuidev smcn (smcn@c-174-52-104-121.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 12:06.51 | Pwntzyou | Crazy question... but |
| 12:07.06 | Pwntzyou | In wow addons, if a variable is global in one script, do other scripts have access to it |
| 12:07.16 | Pwntzyou | I suppose it would be "in lua" rather |
| 12:07.37 | Arrowmaster | yes |
| 12:07.45 | Pwntzyou | ok |
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| 12:17.25 | Pwntzyou | Siqlly question again, using an "On_____" for an object, how might I go about making a hook to it |
| 12:22.02 | zenzio | !api SetScript |
| 12:22.03 | lua_bot | ScriptObject:SetScript: Sets the widget's handler function for a script (http://wowprogramming.com/docs/widgets/ScriptObject/SetScript) |
| 12:22.10 | Elkano | !api hookscript |
| 12:22.10 | lua_bot | ScriptObject:HookScript: Securely hooks a script handler (http://wowprogramming.com/docs/widgets/ScriptObject/HookScript) |
| 12:22.19 | Pwntzyou | ^_^ |
| 12:31.56 | *** join/#wowuidev Robsato (~Robsato@wetering.xs4all.nl) |
| 12:33.05 | LebQzz | an easy way to show a frame when a certain frame is shown? |
| 12:33.22 | LebQzz | f.instance, when GuildFrame is Shown, show <insert frame here> |
| 12:34.35 | *** join/#wowuidev smcn (smcn@c-174-52-104-121.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 12:35.31 | Robsato | Set the parent of <insert frame here> to the GuildFrame should work I think |
| 12:36.13 | LebQzz | oh yeah |
| 12:36.18 | LebQzz | didnt think of that one ;P |
| 12:37.36 | LebQzz | hmm |
| 12:38.30 | LebQzz | that didnt work |
| 12:38.31 | LebQzz | dam |
| 12:41.29 | *** join/#wowuidev Ycarene (~Ycarene@24-116-56-41.cpe.cableone.net) |
| 12:45.44 | LebQzz | having a brain meltdown. how to check if a frame is shown.. |
| 12:49.22 | *** join/#wowuidev TC-Work (~chatzilla@c-069-063-214-148.sd2.redwire.net) |
| 12:49.58 | Robsato | :IsShown() sounds good for that |
| 12:50.15 | Ycarene | I'm trying to install xubuntu on a machine, it boots to the cd and presents me with a menu, I can navigate it, but nothing happens when I press enter, enter works in other parts of the menu like language selection though. |
| 12:50.44 | LebQzz | hmm |
| 12:52.30 | Robsato | BTW did a quick test with the setparent stuff and it does work |
| 12:53.28 | Pwntzyou | How can I turn on LUA errors for my own lua script? |
| 12:57.17 | LebQzz | hmm GuildFrame:IsShown() returns errors untill the frame is shown for the first time |
| 12:57.19 | Robsato | Errors can not be enabled per script I think. Just enabled or disable for all addons. |
| 12:57.38 | LebQzz | attempt to index global 'GuildFrame' (a nil value) |
| 12:57.46 | LebQzz | lol |
| 12:58.23 | Pwntzyou | How the hell do you add two strings (if they are both variables) in lua |
| 12:58.29 | Robsato | That is because the GuidUI is a sepearte addon that gets loaded the first time it is needed |
| 12:58.32 | Pwntzyou | I swear this language is so strange compaired to java or C++ @_@ |
| 12:58.38 | Dezzi | LebQzz: thats because the GuildFrame isn't created until it is first needed |
| 12:58.41 | LebQzz | Pwntzyou depends on how you want em added ;P |
| 12:58.56 | Pwntzyou | I want them appended |
| 12:59.12 | Dezzi | so if GuildFrame doesn't exist, than IsShown is certainly false for all purposes |
| 12:59.14 | Pwntzyou | c = "some" d = "thing" c+d = "something" |
| 12:59.15 | LebQzz | addedVar = var1 .. var2 |
| 12:59.23 | Pwntzyou | Hmm, tried that and it didn't work wth |
| 12:59.25 | Robsato | Use .. to concatenate strings |
| 13:00.05 | LebQzz | a = c..d |
| 13:00.28 | Robsato | You might want to take a look at the Lua manual for that kind of stuff http://www.lua.org/manual/5.1/ |
| 13:01.27 | LebQzz | so what can i do to make my window show only when guild window is shown |
| 13:03.53 | Robsato | You can make your addon load with the GuildUI so it loads at the same time. Guildframe will be there then. |
| 13:06.16 | Robsato | You can do that by adding ## LoadOnDemand: 1 and ## LoadWIth: BLizzard_GuildUI to your toc file http://www.wowpedia.org/TOC_format (restart wow after changing toc) |
| 13:09.34 | smcn | boo, lfd/battlegrounds broken :/ |
| 13:09.59 | *** join/#wowuidev Computerpunk_ (~Computerp@85.186.122.45) |
| 13:12.13 | sylvanaar_work | Pwntzyou: most developers can learn lua syntax in a couple hours - its pretty easy |
| 13:14.24 | Pwntzyou | Yea, and I am no exception :P |
| 13:14.34 | Pwntzyou | It is just very awquard |
| 13:14.37 | Pwntzyou | or awkward |
| 13:14.40 | sylvanaar_work | only at first |
| 13:16.18 | sylvanaar_work | dynamic typing may be strange if you arent used to it |
| 13:16.54 | sylvanaar_work | duck types, quack! |
| 13:18.02 | sylvanaar_work | theres a channel #lua also - which is good for asking lua questions |
| 13:18.15 | Pwntzyou | Thanks |
| 13:22.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Sesshu (~Sesshu@ip-179-16.travedsl.de) |
| 13:24.00 | LebQzz | hmm |
| 13:24.05 | LebQzz | in my savedvariables. |
| 13:24.37 | LebQzz | if ia have a table thats pp_chars["somenumber"]["name"] = 1 |
| 13:25.06 | LebQzz | my mod somehow with a copy paste creates 2 sets.. |
| 13:25.19 | LebQzz | one [123456789] and one ["123456789"] |
| 13:25.51 | LebQzz | lol getting too tired.. cant see the obvious ;P |
| 13:28.30 | *** join/#wowuidev TechDevout (~Miranda@79.116.119.245) |
| 13:33.24 | *** join/#wowuidev Jamash (~Jamash@99-92-174-69.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net) |
| 13:36.03 | *** join/#wowuidev Sliker (ponies@87.114.103.44) |
| 13:38.37 | *** join/#wowuidev mojosdojo (~mojosdojo@p4FEFC07A.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:44.58 | Pwntzyou | http://wowprogramming.com/docs/api/GetItemInfo is only working for items in my inventory |
| 13:45.05 | Pwntzyou | Am I just doing it wrong? |
| 13:49.33 | Gagorian | Pwntzyou: Read the start of the page |
| 13:49.40 | Gagorian | If it's not in your cache, you can't request it |
| 13:49.45 | Pwntzyou | Yea yea I read it ~_~ |
| 13:50.00 | Pwntzyou | And it actually says in the current memory which is lame |
| 13:50.36 | Pwntzyou | Though, atlas loot does it fine... time to try to figure it out |
| 13:51.57 | Gagorian | Or well, that was an inaccurate statement.. you can request it but you're not guaranteed to get the item info :) |
| 13:52.40 | Pwntzyou | It should... request automatically though... correct? |
| 13:53.04 | Pwntzyou | Because I am trying to use it to get item data I know exist, for sure, and I have come in contact with them before |
| 13:53.16 | Pwntzyou | though it seems to only want to work on items in my inventory / have been in my inventory |
| 13:54.47 | Gagorian | Well, I haven't actually used GetItemInfo that much but you could try running it twice |
| 13:55.13 | Gagorian | As if it doesn't exist in your cache it's queried from the server which should populate your cache, and it might be available |
| 13:55.18 | *** join/#wowuidev Guardix (~Martin@0x5da165ee.hinqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 13:55.58 | sylvanaar_work | Cairenn: can you move http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info18811-CareMeter.html to the Chat Mods section |
| 13:56.24 | sylvanaar_work | pretty please |
| 13:56.28 | Cairenn | done |
| 13:56.39 | sylvanaar_work | thanks! |
| 13:56.46 | Cairenn | welcome :) |
| 13:57.53 | zenzelezz | given the speed at which Cairenn operates, I suspect she's using spice |
| 13:58.05 | sylvanaar_work | lol |
| 13:58.22 | sylvanaar_work | i have spice melange here in the office |
| 13:58.47 | airtonix | ooo |
| 13:58.50 | airtonix | caremeter |
| 13:58.53 | zenzelezz | careful how much you use that, you saw how it went with Paul |
| 13:58.57 | airtonix | this is relevant to my interests |
| 13:59.08 | zenzelezz | go away, heathen |
| 13:59.20 | airtonix | call me mouse |
| 13:59.25 | airtonix | mouse little |
| 13:59.31 | sylvanaar_work | mouse little |
| 13:59.37 | zenzelezz | don't try to Matrix your way out of Dune |
| 13:59.51 | airtonix | are you being served? |
| 13:59.56 | sylvanaar_work | lol |
| 13:59.59 | Cairenn | heh |
| 14:00.00 | sylvanaar_work | that was the best show |
| 14:00.17 | airtonix | That was my childhood |
| 14:00.22 | sylvanaar_work | well - not the best, but good |
| 14:00.35 | airtonix | tread carefully, for you step on my dreams |
| 14:00.49 | sylvanaar_work | also good was that one where it was an english class |
| 14:00.54 | sylvanaar_work | i forget the name |
| 14:01.06 | zenzelezz | you lost out on our carefulness when you refused to play along with Dune |
| 14:01.06 | sylvanaar_work | 70's stuff |
| 14:01.12 | airtonix | ok so |
| 14:01.19 | airtonix | back to harkonan central |
| 14:01.29 | airtonix | <scab picking session in effect> |
| 14:01.34 | airtonix | nomnomnomnom |
| 14:01.45 | zenzelezz | :-o |
| 14:02.00 | sylvanaar_work | I need the juice of safoo |
| 14:02.20 | sylvanaar_work | so i can be a human computer |
| 14:02.25 | airtonix | indeed |
| 14:02.44 | airtonix | Go forth with the force ensign |
| 14:02.47 | sylvanaar_work | in fact, i'd drink a few of them to be a quad core |
| 14:03.45 | airtonix | Dagmar, does mythtv intergrate with skype? |
| 14:03.50 | *** join/#wowuidev PProvost_ (~PProvost@97-122-103-29.hlrn.qwest.net) |
| 14:03.54 | airtonix | (or any video chat) |
| 14:04.14 | sylvanaar_work | Mind Your Language! |
| 14:04.21 | sylvanaar_work | that was the name of the show |
| 14:05.33 | sylvanaar_work | so funny |
| 14:07.30 | dardack_ | airtonix, just curious why you woudl want mythtv to integrate with skype |
| 14:07.53 | *** join/#wowuidev Amarande (amarande@71-88-41-93.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com) |
| 14:08.14 | Amarande | Hmm, maybe I *should* consider one of those 120Hz monitors. |
| 14:08.26 | Amarande | I get 86 fps in Lost Coast and 111 fps in the CS:S stress test. :) |
| 14:08.49 | *** join/#wowuidev foxlit (~anonymous@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 14:08.57 | airtonix | dardack_, i bought a webcam that works very nice with linux and was thinking to intergrate it with xbmc for the grandma |
| 14:09.11 | dardack_ | ahh |
| 14:09.53 | airtonix | but i think skype is suboptimal in terms of python intergration. |
| 14:10.04 | *** join/#wowuidev TechDevout (~Miranda@79.116.119.245) |
| 14:10.35 | cbreak | Amarande: estimate the change of framerate that you will have in the next few years, with new games |
| 14:11.05 | cbreak | if you go for 60Hz, you can get a smooth constant framerate |
| 14:11.16 | *** join/#wowuidev Legorol (~legorol.s@cpc8-sgyl28-2-0-cust43.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com) |
| 14:11.16 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Legorol] by ChanServ |
| 14:11.17 | cbreak | if you go for something without vsync, you get fluctuations all the time |
| 14:11.28 | mikma | http://media.mmo-champion.com/images/news/2010/december/fortune1.jpg |
| 14:11.32 | Amarande | cbreak: the odd thing though is that my framerate really hasn't gone up that much over memory and video card upgrades. wonder if that means it's time to get that six-core AMD processor? :) |
| 14:11.44 | cbreak | don't |
| 14:11.51 | cbreak | I have an 8 Core Xeon machine |
| 14:11.56 | cbreak | and still terrible framerate. |
| 14:12.00 | cbreak | it's the graphics card :) |
| 14:12.03 | foxlit | http://apogeorgiadis.blogspot.com/p/airmediaplayer-for-windows_22.html << win. |
| 14:12.15 | cbreak | (oh, I also have 6 GB of ECC memory, wow doesn't even use 2 of that...) |
| 14:12.28 | sylvanaar_work | fancypants |
| 14:12.41 | cbreak | of course, it could be that you are bandiwdth limited |
| 14:12.45 | sylvanaar_work | is jealous |
| 14:12.55 | cbreak | but that's not something you can change without a new computer/mainboard |
| 14:13.05 | Amarande | or maybe it's time eventually for http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130593&cm_re=GTX_570_evga-_-14-130-593-_-Product |
| 14:13.13 | *** join/#wowuidev tigingin88 (~gingtig88@76.216.62.194) |
| 14:13.14 | mikma | foxlit: can't see the use of that program :P |
| 14:13.16 | *** join/#wowuidev Thrae (~ircuser@generalmx-1-pt.tunnel.tserv13.ash1.ipv6.he.net) |
| 14:13.26 | airtonix | foxlit, mannnn someone needs to port pulseaudio to windows! |
| 14:13.33 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraps (~chatzilla@ool-44c20717.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 14:13.51 | airtonix | im sick of unplugging my headphones from my laptop so i can hear audio from windows |
| 14:14.11 | mikma | fisker's gonna plug you |
| 14:14.11 | cbreak | that's... weird |
| 14:14.27 | cbreak | you don't hear audio on a windows pc if you have the headphones plugged in? |
| 14:14.37 | airtonix | if i don't |
| 14:14.42 | cbreak | are you _wearing_ the head phones? That's required for their usage :/ |
| 14:14.51 | mikma | bingo! |
| 14:14.57 | airtonix | i normally listen to audio from the ubuntu desktop via my ubuntu laptop using pulseaudio |
| 14:15.16 | Kraps | Thrae: ping |
| 14:18.12 | Kraps | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGRMSJ4Xg5w&feature=player_embedded |
| 14:18.34 | Kraps | some people are just pro |
| 14:18.47 | Amarande | (btw, is that 570 good, or bad?) |
| 14:19.58 | Amarande | and is it just me or has the AH gotten a lot livelier since the expansion hit? |
| 14:20.06 | Gagorian | Amarande: Consensus probably is that it's good, most newly released cards are priced rather appropriately |
| 14:20.08 | Amarande | there seems to be somewhere around 40-50% more auctions on each server now |
| 14:20.14 | airtonix | obviously people have re-subbed |
| 14:20.14 | Thrae | Kraps: Stop hacking the government's secret cameras installed in my room. How'd you know I just woke up and got to the computer =/ |
| 14:20.42 | Amarande | Thrae: heh, did you hear about the Ensidia guy who got arrested because his program apparently went bonkers and DDoS'd a Dutch prosecutor's office? |
| 14:20.44 | Kraps | Thrae: if i told you, i would have to kill you |
| 14:20.47 | Thrae | Oh wait, did XChat2 have to re-connect the proxy? |
| 14:21.40 | cbreak | Thrae (~ircuser@generalmx-1-pt.tunnel.tserv13.ash1.ipv6.he.net) joined the chat room |
| 14:21.45 | Pwntzyou | Is there a way to gain access to Item-sparse.db2 via an addon :3 |
| 14:21.53 | Thrae | Amarande: The Nvidia GTX 570? |
| 14:21.54 | Gagorian | Amarande: Personally I prefer ATI, but there's good arguments for both sides. So if you want Nvidia and have the budget for 570 go for it :) |
| 14:22.04 | *** join/#wowuidev alestane (~alestane@c-66-30-209-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 14:22.04 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v alestane] by ChanServ |
| 14:22.32 | Kraps | Thrae: memtest is 81% done and is telling me all passes, press esc to exit |
| 14:22.33 | cbreak | afaik, the new fermi cards are mainly for CUDA use, and not really that optimal for computer graphics |
| 14:22.52 | cbreak | like, who needs all those double precision floating point ALUs? |
| 14:23.16 | Amarande | cbreak: the GTX 500 series apparently all have Fermi |
| 14:23.21 | Amarande | it must be becoming a baseline feature in nvidia cards |
| 14:23.30 | cbreak | fermi isn't something you have |
| 14:23.36 | cbreak | it's the name of the new CPU architecture |
| 14:25.14 | Gagorian | Amarande: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/GeForce_GTX_570/ is a rather decent review if you want more information |
| 14:25.17 | Amarande | cbreak: in any case, it looks like it's used inherently in the GTX 500 series though whether you need it or not |
| 14:25.32 | Amarande | unless you're going to say people should be going to ATI unless they need CUDA, in the future? |
| 14:25.41 | cbreak | no |
| 14:25.58 | Thrae | Amarande: To answer your question about the 570 it basically replaces the 470, although the 470 is fine even though its less power efficient. Overall anything above 460/560 is a bit too much power for most setups. |
| 14:26.00 | cbreak | it's not that the features in fermi are CUDA only |
| 14:26.19 | cbreak | it's just that they are not something that is that useful for games |
| 14:26.34 | Amarande | cbreak: you spoke of it though as if we have a choice about having or not having fermi if we stick to nvidia in current and future generations |
| 14:27.14 | Gagorian | cbreak: NVidia doesn't have anything else than Fermi based that's competetive in games at the moment |
| 14:27.30 | cbreak | previous line? :) |
| 14:27.31 | Amarande | and the Light burn me if I'm going back to ATI |
| 14:27.52 | Thrae | Fermi is the name of the GPU architecture. One of the cool features is the ability to deal with 2.5 polygons where ATI cards still deal with 1, which is one of the major reasons it saw a big performance boost when the 470/480 first hit. |
| 14:27.54 | Amarande | I may decide to go back to Linux in the future, especially after I get finished with the games that I'm concerned about Wine compatibility on |
| 14:28.00 | Gagorian | cbreak: Do they even sell those? It's not worth buying :) |
| 14:28.15 | Amarande | and besides the fact that fermi can deal with more polygons at once, and thus Is Inherently Better |
| 14:28.17 | cbreak | I bet you can buy old stuff somewhere for very very cheap |
| 14:28.25 | Amarande | ATI has failed hard at Linux drivers for a looooong time now |
| 14:28.41 | Amarande | and is generally regarded as inferior driverwise in Windows, too |
| 14:28.58 | alestane | I'm not sure if that's still true, but I haven't seen that it isn't, either. |
| 14:28.59 | Amarande | watches Shirik mark my last comment with the [weasel words] tag. :) |
| 14:29.26 | Gagorian | Yes, well the ATI & drivers thing is a bit overinflated since it gets repeated so often |
| 14:29.30 | Thrae | Kraps: I suggested to run Memtest overnight...it's only 81% done? |
| 14:29.43 | Amarande | however, the bit about Linux is true. If you ever want to run Linux on a PC, part or full time, you *do not want ATI*. |
| 14:29.52 | alestane | I know my past experience has been that they release excellent hardware with marginal driver support, and then obsolete their own hardware rather than update the drivers for it. |
| 14:30.06 | Amarande | ATI apparently considers such gems as "kernel locks hard on logging out of X or switching user sessions in GDM" to be *low-priority* bugs. |
| 14:30.06 | zenzelezz | Thrae: make him check if it's the first pass or if it has repeated |
| 14:30.09 | alestane | And release marginal drivers for the new hardware too. |
| 14:30.34 | Kraps | Thrae: well, i started it at like 2:15 am, its about 7 hours now |
| 14:30.39 | Amarande | The entire year and a half or so I last had an ATI card for, said bug existed, it persisted from 8.x into, apparently, 10.x catalysts without a fix. |
| 14:30.49 | cbreak | GPU drivers of all manufacturers suck here on OS X :( |
| 14:30.50 | Amarande | and yes, there have been multiple bug reports of it on the ATI bug database. |
| 14:30.51 | Kraps | Thunder_Child: ohai |
| 14:30.53 | Gagorian | I haven't had any major issues with ATI drivers in Windows, but there's been annoyances for sure. All in all I'm still happy with the product. |
| 14:30.59 | cbreak | where suck means "it's ok, but nowhere near good" |
| 14:31.01 | karl_w_w | drivers are why a lot of people still buy nvidia over ati |
| 14:31.07 | Amarande | cbreak: I bet they don't cause kernel panic on logout, though |
| 14:31.12 | cbreak | no |
| 14:31.14 | airtonix | Amarande, what games |
| 14:31.18 | cbreak | I haven't seen a kernel panic in ages |
| 14:31.28 | airtonix | me either <3 nvidia |
| 14:31.36 | Amarande | airtonix: particularly, Neverwinter Nights 2 (especially the toolset has issues with Wine, apparently), LOTRO, and Dragon Age |
| 14:31.37 | zenzelezz | I still have my Radeon 9800 Pro (AGP) in a box in a closet; fond memories |
| 14:31.46 | airtonix | Amarande, ok |
| 14:31.48 | Gagorian | Amarande: What makes me prefer ATI is better multi-monitor support and lower power consumption |
| 14:31.58 | airtonix | Amarande, luckily i don't like nwn2 |
| 14:32.03 | Amarande | Given how much grief the DA DLC manager gives one on *Windows*, I'd hate to attempt it on Wine |
| 14:32.16 | airtonix | Gagorian, qqmoar ion2 says HI! |
| 14:32.18 | Amarande | I had to download the damned DLC like, 3 times to get it to work |
| 14:32.19 | cbreak | there's a problem with multi monitor support on nvidia? |
| 14:32.28 | cbreak | seems to work fine for me |
| 14:32.32 | Thrae | CUDA/OpenCL/DirectCompute *could* be useful in future games, but isn't right now. But anyway, Nvidia's DirectX11 support starts at Fermi. |
| 14:32.33 | Gagorian | cbreak: EyeFinity, enough said. |
| 14:32.45 | Kraps | TC-Work: you |
| 14:32.56 | Amarande | Thrae: what games support significant DX11 as yet, btw? |
| 14:33.03 | airtonix | Gagorian, no. I'm sure you need to say more. |
| 14:33.16 | airtonix | Amarande, Call of Pripyat |
| 14:33.32 | Amarande | (And remember that apart from Dragon Age and WoW, most of my games are years old now) |
| 14:33.41 | Gagorian | Amarande: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_DirectX_11_support |
| 14:34.05 | karl_w_w | different between support and utilization |
| 14:34.07 | Gagorian | I believe WoW got a decent performance improvement by enabling Dx11 based on Tom's Hardware testing |
| 14:34.25 | A-KO | WoW does, but there are also a few bugs |
| 14:34.35 | A-KO | anti-aliasing doesn't work (Nvidia card/260.99 drivers), alt-tab has issues. |
| 14:34.38 | Amarande | ok, why does Civilization V *need* to use DX11 features :blink |
| 14:34.38 | Thrae | ATI has improved their drivers a lot. I'd say right now the drivers are about 80% as good as Nvidia's. |
| 14:34.49 | Thrae | Kraps: Oh OK. How many passes? |
| 14:34.53 | Gagorian | A-KO: I use ATI and Dx11 in wow, seems to work fine |
| 14:35.04 | Amarande | A-KO: which means that lightheaded is pretty much a mandatory addon if you use DX11, then |
| 14:35.11 | Thrae | Kraps: It'll keep going forever, so what percentage it's at now isn't useful :) |
| 14:35.27 | A-KO | Gagorian: Anti-Aliasing is broken on Nvidia cards with it. Not sure if it affects all games or what, haven't tried. |
| 14:35.57 | Amarande | sighs at Bioware |
| 14:35.59 | Amarande | "Dragon Age II was announced in July 2010[16] and BioWare's Greg Zeschuk stated when interviewed by Joystiq that "I think one of the key things we're working on in Dragon Age II is the technology. I can confirm that we're doing a lot of work on the Dragon Age engine, and doing a lot of stuff to pump it -- to make it visually super hot."" |
| 14:36.01 | Amarande | Dammit. |
| 14:36.13 | Amarande | Whatever happened to when the key things being worked on in games were mostly oh THE STORY AND GAMEPLAY? |
| 14:36.27 | Amarande | Now they seem to think it at least as important to exploit and showcase new technology as to ... oh, make a fun game with a great story |
| 14:36.30 | Amarande | wtf, man. |
| 14:36.39 | Kraps | Amarande: whare is my lootz |
| 14:37.05 | Kraps | Thrae: 6, and i think its almost done |
| 14:37.11 | airtonix | http://www.widescreengamingforum.com/wiki/NVIDIA_3D_Vision_Surround_FAQ |
| 14:37.12 | Amarande | (or does a significant part of the income that game manufacturers get now, significant even with relation to sales, come from endorsement money from nVidia or ATI to use new features every time?) |
| 14:37.13 | Thrae | Gagorian: You use EyeFinity? |
| 14:38.20 | Thrae | Amarande: I'm not sure what you mean by "significant DX11." I mean, even WoW has a DX11 engine. |
| 14:38.37 | Amarande | Thrae: I mean, significant enough that you'd notice improvements and actually find it worth getting a DX11 card for. |
| 14:38.44 | airtonix | cbreak, ^ |
| 14:38.50 | Amarande | remembering that a good DX11 card is still about 350$. |
| 14:38.51 | Gagorian | Thrae: Not currently, no. But I use 3 monitor outputs, which afaik isn't possible with a single Nvidia card |
| 14:39.03 | airtonix | it is |
| 14:39.06 | Thrae | Yep, I've seen that from my tests too |
| 14:39.13 | airtonix | i use three screens on my ion netbook |
| 14:39.16 | Thrae | A-KO: Anti-Aliasing works for me (Nvidia GTX 470/260.99). The bug I've heard is that it can cause water to disappear, which I haven't experienced yet. |
| 14:39.21 | Thrae | Amarande: Dragon Age has never been Elder Scrolls |
| 14:39.24 | Thrae | Elder Scrolls wasn't even Elder Scrolls with Oblivion, but Bethesda says they're trying to get back to their roots with Skyrim (Elder Scrolls V) |
| 14:39.27 | Thrae | Kraps: Like I said it'll keep looping forever :) 6 is enough. If it passed 6 without problems it's probably fine (memory-wise, and probably CPU and MB too) |
| 14:39.31 | Thrae | Kraps: Also if you had the monitor turned on for all those passes then that says something about your video card. |
| 14:39.36 | karl_w_w | I've had water disappear as well |
| 14:39.38 | Amarande | Thrae: It's not just DA, though |
| 14:39.50 | Amarande | EVERY game manufacturer lately has cited "exploiting the technology" in some way shape or form as a top priority |
| 14:40.00 | Amarande | how did that get to BE a top priority? |
| 14:40.05 | Kraps | Thrae: minito has only been on the last hour |
| 14:40.07 | Gagorian | airtonix: Well I don't know much about ION but it isn't possible with the Fermi cards afaik |
| 14:40.14 | Kraps | monitor* |
| 14:40.14 | Thrae | Amarande: Hmm, I would say none of the games out now, from a practical standpoint of how much they actually utilize DirectX11. But even with WoW (possible bugs aside) the differences in DirectX11 are very nice. |
| 14:40.22 | karl_w_w | Amarande why shouldn't it be a top priority? |
| 14:40.26 | Amarande | there should be EXACTLY two top priorities in the design of a game. Enjoyable gameplay, and, in games such as RPGs that have a significant story, a great story. |
| 14:40.37 | Amarande | karl: because eventually it starts to become a priority over gameplay |
| 14:40.39 | Gagorian | Amarande: What card do you have currently? |
| 14:40.52 | Amarande | for many developers, graphics technology even HAS become a priority over gameplay, and that's bad. |
| 14:40.54 | karl_w_w | people who buy good cards want them to be used |
| 14:40.55 | Amarande | Gagorian: GTS 250 |
| 14:41.22 | Amarande | EVGA, standard clock, 1GB model |
| 14:42.19 | Amarande | But if graphics were that important, Final Fantasy X wouldn't still be one of the top two most popular games for PS2, it would have been a later one with better graphics. And FFVII would be regarded as suck by all but hardcore fanboys. |
| 14:42.25 | karl_w_w | some people liked crysis because of how it looked, if you dont like that you can not buy the game, but I don't see why that means the people who like it shouldn't have the option |
| 14:42.31 | Gagorian | Ok I guess depends what you're requiremenets are for good, but even a cheap DirectX 11 card like GTX 460 or AMD 6850 would give you a performance improvement |
| 14:42.36 | Amarande | And WoW wouldn't even be that popular, seeing that people talked about "cartoony graphics" |
| 14:42.39 | Gagorian | s/you're/your/ |
| 14:43.02 | Amarande | karl: the main thing is, game companies have limited time and budget for development |
| 14:43.16 | Amarande | the more they spend of that on graphics to keep up with the Joneses on the tech, the less of that they have for the things that make a game fun |
| 14:43.20 | Kraps | Thrae: also, i switched to the other card last night, and it ran just as hot or hotter in wow, but there was no crash after a minute and i exited wow |
| 14:43.26 | Amarande | unless you're going to say that some people *do* find the graphics more important than the gameplay |
| 14:43.45 | Amarande | but I have to wonder why those people don't just watch movies or something instead of playing a game, if the gameplay is of that little importance. ;) |
| 14:43.45 | karl_w_w | they aren't morons, they do it because the game simply won't sell if they don't |
| 14:44.10 | karl_w_w | they're running a business, we the consumers set the parameters not them :P |
| 14:44.27 | Amarande | Of course, with the ever increasing emphasis on cutscenes, eventually we'll mostly watch games, too :S |
| 14:44.56 | karl_w_w | i felt like I watched half my way through uldum quests, that's for sure |
| 14:45.09 | alestane | As a general rule, good gameplay breeds sustainable interest and word of mouth; good graphics breed early surge sales. Both are important for the best success. |
| 14:45.41 | Amarande | karl: I also wonder how much extra queue time people suffer on average because of cutscenes (due to people's queue popping mid cutscene causing them to miss it) |
| 14:46.01 | Thrae | Gagorian: The ATI chips can go up to 6 monitors. The Nvidia chips can go up to 3 monitors. These are hardware limitations of the chips themselves. |
| 14:46.05 | airtonix | karl_w_w, i just finished watching mass effect one and two |
| 14:46.08 | airtonix | good mvoies |
| 14:46.13 | karl_w_w | lol |
| 14:46.21 | *** join/#wowuidev Ycarene (~Ycarene@24-116-56-41.cpe.cableone.net) |
| 14:46.29 | Gagorian | Thrae: Oh, can Nvidia cards have 3 active outputs at the same time? |
| 14:46.37 | Gagorian | Thrae: I thought it was 2 :( |
| 14:46.40 | Amarande | and remember oftentimes when ONE person misses their queue, your entire group gets taken away from you and given to other people in queue and then you get to wait *another* 20 minutes because someone couldn't click enter dungeon! |
| 14:46.56 | A-KO | Amarande: I'm pretty sure you're placed back at the front of the queue |
| 14:47.02 | A-KO | if that happens |
| 14:47.09 | Kraps | airtonix: mass effect 3 looks to be another theater filler |
| 14:47.09 | Thrae | Gagorian: I believe so, as long as they have 3 outputs |
| 14:47.20 | karl_w_w | there would be no added queue time, because for every person that misses a queue everybody else gets theirs that bit earlier :P |
| 14:47.21 | Amarande | A-KO: still, I've very often seen that happen, then went to check on the status that used to be four people and noticed just my sword icon is lit and the other two DPS, tank, and healer slots are all gone |
| 14:47.24 | karl_w_w | averages out in the end |
| 14:47.35 | Amarande | i.e., the rest of the group was given to someone else because one of the other DPS was afk (or trapped in a cutscene) |
| 14:48.00 | Gagorian | Thrae: I might be wrong, but I thought only 2/3 of the three outputs can be active at one time. Like older generation ati cards, 5xxx series etc |
| 14:48.27 | karl_w_w | ive missed half the groups & BGs I queue for because I get the transfer aborted: instance not found bug :P |
| 14:48.29 | Thrae | Gagorian: Ah sorry my mistake. They require SLI for 3 monitors so yes, two monitors at a time. |
| 14:48.36 | karl_w_w | that's more of an issue than cutscenes |
| 14:49.03 | Thrae | Kraps: OK well your next test is to put that fan back at 100% and run WoW for a while and see if you can crash it. |
| 14:49.03 | A-KO | the cut scenes are so few and far in betwene unless you're running through Uldum |
| 14:49.09 | Amarande | alestane: has "take the money and run" day zero sales become more important than sustained sales now? |
| 14:49.13 | Amarande | that seems like a bad evolution for gaming |
| 14:49.38 | Amarande | and people still seek out and buy FF7 despite the fact that the graphics are completely antiquated now :) |
| 14:50.08 | Thrae | Amarande: Forget FF7, people still seek out and buy FF6. |
| 14:50.20 | karl_w_w | i still play ff7 and half the time you can't actually tell what is going on :P |
| 14:50.27 | A-KO | Amarande: Yeah, but I think the gaming market has changed quite a bit, too. You know, back then, it was the realm of kids who could spent 30 hours playing a game. Nowadays, most people are much older, they don't want to take 60 hours to complete a game except the really diehard fans.... |
| 14:50.36 | Thrae | Even though it uses 16-bit graphics with sprites. Because it's story is a hell of a lot better and character design far more interesting. |
| 14:51.00 | *** join/#wowuidev TechDevout (~Miranda@79.116.118.72) |
| 14:51.10 | Thunder_Child | Kraps: me? |
| 14:51.28 | zid | I have the time and I still don't play hard games often |
| 14:51.37 | alestane | Amarande, truly great games are the ones that people remember fondly and keep coming back to, and that are widely known enough for that momentum to create a phenomenon, so both are important. |
| 14:51.43 | zid | The last game of NES difficulty I played through was iwbtg |
| 14:51.44 | Thrae | FF7 is a partial rehash of FF6's plot with an uninteresting main antagonist and the start of the whole "eyecandy" phase and "watch out for the silver-haired guy" phase Squaresoft is still in. |
| 14:52.07 | zid | FF7's combat system was so good the story could have been about killer pies |
| 14:52.12 | karl_w_w | dangerous waters there thrae :P |
| 14:52.30 | karl_w_w | that's the best villian ever for a lot of people |
| 14:52.41 | alestane | The catch is that it's easier to reliably drive zero-day sales with graphics and flash than it is to *reliably* drive extended interest with depth and narrative appeal. |
| 14:52.43 | zid | sephiroth <3 |
| 14:52.46 | Thrae | karl_w_w: I will defend Kefka to the death. |
| 14:53.02 | karl_w_w | more ott please? |
| 14:53.02 | alestane | I really enjoyed FF7, but FF6 claimed my heart years ago. |
| 14:53.04 | karl_w_w | :P |
| 14:53.43 | *** join/#wowuidev Lunessa (~Lunessa@WoWUIDev/Lunessa) |
| 14:53.53 | Lunessa | STATION |
| 14:54.40 | Amarande | I have FF6, but I haven't started it yet |
| 14:54.51 | alestane | Sephiroth was a good villain too, partly because his idealism was in some ways more accessible than Kefka's batshit lunacy, but Kefka was visually more interesting (at least at full size) and more entertaining. |
| 14:55.04 | Thrae | Normally the antagonists in Squaresoft were either angsty as hell or just pure evil. Kefka was different. He was insane. There was no angst, no mother issues. He was a man driven insane by the very process that gave him power. |
| 14:55.20 | Amarande | There's also the fact that you never even really meet Sephiroth till the Northern Crater, right? Everything else was Jenova? |
| 14:55.39 | alestane | You meet fake Sephiroths a few times. |
| 14:56.21 | Amarande | Thrae: how about Kuja? |
| 14:56.26 | karl_w_w | square villians have been good in general |
| 14:56.38 | alestane | I think they're experimental "clones" like Cloud who got taken over by the Sephiroth -cells in them and turned into remote-control duplicates. |
| 14:56.47 | Thrae | alestane: Well the thing is, with Kefka there's an ounce of humanity left and that's why he wants to kill everyone. |
| 14:56.47 | karl_w_w | at least when they are pure evil they have a reason |
| 14:56.52 | Amarande | if I recall, he went batshit because he learned about the lifespan he was created with, and that Zidane, apparently, didn't have that limit. |
| 14:56.58 | alestane | Kuja was angstily nihilistic. |
| 14:57.07 | Thrae | Kuja was a silver-haired pretty boy. |
| 14:57.08 | alestane | He wasn't bad, but not one of their best. |
| 14:57.23 | Amarande | I'm also trying to remember what Vayne actually wanted from FFXII and why. |
| 14:57.32 | Amarande | Oh, btw, while we're on the subject of FF |
| 14:57.39 | karl_w_w | seymour was an awesome villian |
| 14:57.47 | Amarande | in FF13, can you get around the "party leader dies = game over" feature by constantly keeping Reraise active on said leader? |
| 14:57.51 | karl_w_w | not because he was complicated, but cos you really hated him |
| 14:57.59 | karl_w_w | so how do u define a good villian really |
| 14:58.10 | alestane | Rather like Albedo from Xenosaga, Kuja's issues pretty much all stemmed from separation anxiety. |
| 14:58.11 | Amarande | (or did they finally take reraise out of FF?) |
| 14:58.47 | Amarande | alestane: also on Xenosaga, you could argue that pretty much every group leader is a villain to some degree. |
| 14:59.00 | Thrae | Kefka had far more emotion in his little pinky than Sephiroth. This is 3D graphics yet Sephiroth always has that same, bland expression on his face and barely talks. |
| 14:59.02 | Amarande | also that Wilhelm partially wasn't a villain, since he seemed to have the universe's best interests in mind, at least from his POV. |
| 14:59.10 | Amarande | "hey, this will disintegrate if we don't do this. so we'll do this." |
| 14:59.12 | alestane | I lost track of WHAT the hell was going on in Xenosaga by the end. |
| 14:59.36 | Amarande | alestane: apparently it was a stable time loop, which Wilhelm kept reactivating at a certain point because, supposedly, the universe was going to fall apart after that point if he didn't. |
| 14:59.42 | Thrae | alestane: Which is another thing -- mother issues. Sephiroth definitely had mother issues, and so do a lot of Squaresoft's villians after FF7 |
| 14:59.49 | Amarande | when you destroy Zarathustra at the end of III, you break the stable time loop. |
| 14:59.52 | Thrae | Kuja, Seymour, etc. |
| 15:00.02 | Amarande | Which is more, apparently, than can be said for Squall's efforts in FFVIII. |
| 15:00.14 | alestane | But pretty much every faction leader is some kind of idealist, and they're all willing to make one hard sacrifice or another to realize those ideals. |
| 15:00.59 | alestane | Kevin, Wilhelm, Joachim Mizrahi, even KOS-MOS. |
| 15:01.48 | alestane | The black Testament, from what I remember, is actually more of a Sephiroth figure, seeking self-perfection with a complete disregard for anything else, but we don't really see enough of him to develop his story well. |
| 15:02.13 | Amarande | alestane: I think the Black Testament's story was mostly touched upon in a cell phone game that never made it out of Japan |
| 15:02.15 | Kraps | Thrae: speedfan also shows "Temp1" running hot, no idea what that is |
| 15:02.50 | Amarande | and ultimately, it was bad gameplay that destroyed the series, too |
| 15:02.55 | Thrae | Kraps: Motherboard probably |
| 15:02.56 | Amarande | III was good, but they never recovered their fanbase after II |
| 15:03.09 | alestane | I suspect he was supposed to be developed in the original episode 2 , which I think got cut, because all the other Testaments were people we'd gotten to know before meeting them as Testaments |
| 15:03.12 | Amarande | which ironically was designed to "appeal more to the mass gamer base" after the success that was I |
| 15:03.12 | Kraps | Thrae: is that bad? |
| 15:03.29 | Thrae | Kraps: Nah it's because you've left it on for hours and hours |
| 15:03.30 | alestane | The gameplay in Xenosaga always struck me as "unpolished." |
| 15:03.33 | Amarande | alestane: actually we never really met Kevin more than a slight bit at most except as backstory through Shion |
| 15:03.56 | alestane | But we'd seen enough of him through flashbacks that we knew him to some extent. |
| 15:04.08 | Amarande | Not like how, say, Albedo was an omnipresent force throughout the games |
| 15:04.32 | alestane | The black Testament is first encountered as "the black Testament," at which point Ziggy explained who he was and why we should think he was bad-ass. |
| 15:04.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Mihau (~asmith@69.73.16.202) |
| 15:05.01 | Amarande | alestane: yes, that's because that character only appeared in detail before that in Pied Piper |
| 15:05.08 | Amarande | which was a Japan-only cell phone game |
| 15:05.37 | Amarande | He was detailed, we just got stung with the No Export For You |
| 15:05.47 | alestane | There were plenty of good ideas in the Xenosaga gameplay, but they kept changing it too much from one episode to another, and I don't think they spent enough time asking themselves "Am I having fun right now?" while pl.aytesting, if in fact they playtested. |
| 15:05.55 | Amarande | Granted, at the time, cell phone games on that scale probably weren't all that viable outside of Japan, either |
| 15:06.25 | Amarande | Android was unheard of then, I'm not even sure the iPhone was out. Apps of that scale weren't viable sells in the US until the iPhone at least was out. |
| 15:07.02 | Amarande | alestane: the train wreck occurred with the transition between I and II |
| 15:07.13 | Amarande | after I was a MEGA SUCCESS (you know maybe they should have *stayed with that formula* ...) |
| 15:07.27 | Amarande | they fired half the main designers from I |
| 15:07.57 | *** join/#wowuidev dafi (~daf@bl16-204-49.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 15:08.01 | Amarande | and decided to go with a more actiony (notice that everything in II revolves around the timing feature, i.e., boosting, whereas you can get through I and III without using Boost more than a little bit if at all ...) |
| 15:08.04 | alestane | I don't mind bringing in Kajiura Yuki instead of Mitsuda Yasunori, there was fabulous music in 2 and 3. |
| 15:08.10 | Amarande | system, and II was a train wreck. |
| 15:08.28 | alestane | Boost didn't bother me in principle. |
| 15:08.28 | Amarande | this is what happens when we let the industry get their grubby mitts on good creativity. |
| 15:08.32 | Amarande | *the gaming industry is bad*. |
| 15:08.40 | Amarande | Games are great, the industry ruins them. |
| 15:08.54 | alestane | It has to do with institutionalization. |
| 15:09.04 | cbreak | I don't think it's the industry |
| 15:09.07 | cbreak | it's the managers |
| 15:09.13 | cbreak | managers are the true evil |
| 15:09.15 | Amarande | Hell, nearly every creative industry is in danger of breaking creativity entirely now for a long time to come, with the economy as it is causing them to stick to formula and barely admitting any creativity at all |
| 15:09.36 | alestane | It usually stems from someone deciding to "play it safe" and crank something out with a bunch of well-established elements. |
| 15:09.56 | Amarande | of course, on the other hand, it's hard *not* to use a bunch of well-established elements |
| 15:10.24 | Amarande | given that even the most creative of works tend to, if they show up on TV Tropes, end up with a huge long laundry list of elements they turned out to use whether the designer intended to or not |
| 15:10.29 | cbreak | the first two games I wrote were: master mind, and some random sidescroller. |
| 15:10.30 | alestane | This says a lot about it: http://megatokyo.com/strip/232 |
| 15:10.48 | Amarande | cbreak: I've always been of the belief that gaming companies need to be run by gamers and creatives, and not by non-gamer businessmen. |
| 15:11.02 | Amarande | when you let the latter be in charge, you get EA. |
| 15:11.27 | Amarande | And EA is what we like to call a Bad Thing for the future of gaming. |
| 15:11.33 | alestane | "You've got a chance to do something more potent here. Make changes based on your strongest opportunities, not your most convenient ones." |
| 15:12.13 | alestane | I will maintain that one of the driving factors behind Blizzard's success is their upper management. They're pretty much uniformly die-hard gamers. |
| 15:12.21 | Amarande | Exactly. |
| 15:12.35 | alestane | You can't not like Mike. |
| 15:12.38 | Amarande | Whereas EA puts out a lot of bad games and lets good studios like Origin rot because they're managed by non-gamers who only care about the money. |
| 15:12.43 | Amarande | That's a bad way to run a creative business. |
| 15:12.47 | Lunessa | They don't just make/play games. They LOVE them. |
| 15:12.53 | alestane | I might say they only *understand* the money. |
| 15:13.04 | Amarande | When you're running a business that's creativity based, you have a responsibility to the creative world. This responsibility should be priority over the money. |
| 15:13.17 | alestane | That's backwards, Amarande. |
| 15:13.19 | Lunessa | And Bobby Kotik doesn't love games. He loves money and being important. |
| 15:13.44 | alestane | If you act with responsibility for the games you're creating, you'll be able to attract the money. |
| 15:13.59 | Amarande | *exactly*. "If you build it, they will come." |
| 15:14.07 | Amarande | but companies like EA don't want to take that kind of risk. |
| 15:14.09 | cbreak | that doesn't work |
| 15:14.12 | alestane | Because if you go broke making a really creative game, it may never get shared, and that's not responsible either. |
| 15:14.16 | Fisker | alestane |
| 15:15.05 | alestane | Blizzard also has businesspeople, and they listen to them too. They're just not the final determiner. |
| 15:15.17 | Amarande | What the real problem infesting the gaming industry in particular is, is that emphasis on the money. |
| 15:15.17 | alestane | (And many of them are also gamers anyway.) |
| 15:15.31 | alestane | That's what businesses are normally regarded as being for. |
| 15:15.38 | Amarande | Instead of doing what MOST creative people do, which is create, and then see if you can sell it afterwards |
| 15:15.56 | Amarande | they start off with their research and selling points and then they try to create a game around it. it's no wonder things are so obviously formulaic then. |
| 15:16.13 | Amarande | and why there's so much emphasis on graphics tech when a lot of that time really should be being put into stellar story and gameplay. |
| 15:16.34 | Thrae | Just to bring up Final Fantasy 6 one last time, I found the video I was looking for, where all of the religious symbolism (from Dante's Divine Comedy to beyond) are shown in just Kefka's final boss battle -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzVt8LEHddo&feature=player_detailpage#t=191s |
| 15:16.43 | Lunessa | Business is about money. Even with the business is Art or Games. People may be in the field because they love it, but in the end, it comes down to MONEY. If you ignore the money part, you don't make anything. If you don't make things you and your audience love you don't make money either. |
| 15:16.55 | alestane | To get the kind of resources behind a project that will let you create a Final Fantasy 7 or a Lord of the Rings, you must convince someone with money that it is commercially viable, or have access to those resources yourself and not care about the possibility of spending t all with no return. |
| 15:17.03 | A-KO | Amarande: Most people don't care about a good story, but a good story does help to make a good game. |
| 15:17.10 | A-KO | but the stories don't have to be perfect |
| 15:17.24 | *** join/#wowuidev Hell-Razor (~Hell@unaffiliated/hell-razor) |
| 15:17.51 | alestane | And as I said before, it's easier to reliably turn out impressive graphics than it is to reliably turn out a captivating story, especially since most of the tools we have to reliably create stories are inherently formulaic. |
| 15:18.10 | alestane | And businesspeople like consistency, they like being able to predict what will happen. |
| 15:18.38 | Amarande | alestane: well, yeah, there's that. |
| 15:18.50 | Amarande | it's pretty much impossible to create even the best of stories now without using a fairly large number of tropes |
| 15:18.55 | Amarande | even if you don't realize you're using them |
| 15:19.29 | Amarande | even if you go out of your way to *avert* the common trope, you're *still* influenced by them. |
| 15:19.34 | alestane | And designers are also concerned about the possibility of pouring their heart out into creating a game, only to see it end up in the bargain bin and themselves behind the Gamestop counter selling it because they couldn't make a living as a designer. |
| 15:19.54 | alestane | And very successful stories use tropes too. |
| 15:20.01 | Amarande | If you replace 1 with -1, you're not really making something new, you're just using the mirror image. |
| 15:20.13 | alestane | They build on them, rather than being defined by them. |
| 15:20.41 | Amarande | alestane: yet, on the flip side, designers also hate to see half their creative image butchered and reduced to marketable slop because that's what their managers demanded |
| 15:20.59 | Amarande | Creative minds are notoriously cranky about being told to take out something they thought was awesome |
| 15:21.03 | alestane | Take a look and Kushiel's Dart-Avatar. I sum that arc up to people who aren't familiar with it as "a story co-authored by Tom Clancy, Indiana Jones and the Marquis de Sade." |
| 15:21.23 | Thrae | alestane: Well the misnomer behind Final Fantasy 7 was that it was Squaresoft's foray into 3D and their ultimate departure from Nintendo. They had just gotten finished with amazing hits such as Final Fantasy 6, Chrono Trigger, and Romancing Saga 3, and they had those staff able to work on FF7's storyline (mostly the FF6 crew, which is why FF7's plot is similar to FF6). |
| 15:21.24 | Fisker | alestane |
| 15:21.32 | alestane | (To be correct, I should be saying George Lucas rather than Indiana Jones, but say Lucas and people always think Star Wars first.) |
| 15:21.55 | Fisker | firefox doesn't have a plot Thrae |
| 15:22.11 | alestane | I'd say the aesthetics of FF6 and 7 are closer than the plots are. |
| 15:22.12 | Amarande | Oh, I know Kushiel very well. :) |
| 15:22.26 | alestane | I know you do, that's why I pulled it out as an example. |
| 15:22.39 | Amarande | There's tropes there to be sure, though you really don't think about them when you read it because it's that well woven. :) |
| 15:22.55 | alestane | What it does is take themes that are familiar are reincarnate them. |
| 15:23.03 | alestane | are/and* |
| 15:23.11 | Amarande | Games, on the other hand, are much more rarely so well woven. You can usually fairly obviously spot the spots where something was inserted into a game because the marketing department felt it would attract a given audience. |
| 15:23.25 | alestane | That's one of the things that good writers do. |
| 15:23.51 | Thrae | alestane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVgQw4rje_E |
| 15:24.05 | alestane | And harmony is indeed one of the first things that gets lost when marketers insist on putting something in a game, and producers refuse to allow the time to incorporate them in a fitting way. |
| 15:24.30 | Amarande | alestane: yeah, that's one thing that's clearly noticed as a symptom of the gaming industry's negative effect on creativity |
| 15:24.42 | Amarande | you rarely see that marketer/producer pressure point in books. |
| 15:24.53 | Amarande | at least, not in good books. |
| 15:24.59 | alestane | There isn't nearly so much invested in a book, typically. |
| 15:25.25 | Thrae | Honestly if we want a deeper story we shouldn't be arguing over Final Fantasies. They never have been about deep stories. |
| 15:25.32 | Amarande | alestane: you see it less in movies than in games, though, and movies also typically have high budgets. |
| 15:25.47 | Kraps | Thrae: idling in uldum 80-90C, no crash yet |
| 15:25.48 | Thrae | Chrono Trigger maybe...but Romancing Saga was always where Squaresoft tried to be really creative. |
| 15:26.00 | alestane | A book requires a writer, an editor, and usually some test readers; a AAA game typically requires a team of at least thirty people, for a comparable amount of time. |
| 15:26.27 | Thrae | Kraps: With the fan set at 100%? What's your Nvidia driver version, btw? |
| 15:26.28 | Amarande | Thrae: yeah, and I rather like Romancing SaGa |
| 15:26.34 | Amarande | although I kinda got stalled at one point. still need to finish it. |
| 15:26.41 | alestane | And movies, at least, are entirely ABOUT narrative, so they can't just throw interactivity features in their to try and prop themselves up. |
| 15:26.43 | Thrae | Amarande: Which one? There's lots |
| 15:26.51 | Amarande | Thrae: the one that came out in the US for PS2 |
| 15:26.54 | Thrae | Star Ocean is also another example of good story |
| 15:27.08 | Thrae | Amarande: Saga Frontier Ultimate? |
| 15:27.09 | alestane | SaGa Frontier looked pretty good, had an interesting combo system, and was totally unplayable. |
| 15:27.40 | Thrae | Yes Saga Frontier had a broken leveling system, but you could play it. |
| 15:27.49 | Amarande | Romancing SaGa is also fairly challenging, one of the main issues seeming to be that it's difficult to set up decent heals. |
| 15:28.00 | alestane | Chrono Cross had a strong central story, AMAZING music, and mind-numbingly boring supporting characters and weak combat play. |
| 15:28.15 | *** join/#wowuidev Hell-Razor (~Hell@unaffiliated/hell-razor) |
| 15:28.18 | Amarande | You can make a good healing spell, but that seems to take being a Rosalian Mage and blowing your combo spell (which you only seem to be able to make one of at a time?) on a heal. |
| 15:28.43 | Amarande | On top of that, it's also hard to get high defensive stats, primarily because it's difficult to farm enough gold to afford the more expensive armor (which takes out of your weapons budget). |
| 15:28.48 | Thrae | Chrono Cross has a lot in common with the Saga series. |
| 15:28.54 | alestane | THe only Star Ocean I've played past the intro is "Till the End of Time," which has a charming brain-fuck plot twist. |
| 15:28.59 | Amarande | Actually, that's probably why I find the game particularly challenging. |
| 15:29.01 | alestane | I really like the Grandia games. |
| 15:29.24 | alestane | Good combat play, decent characterization, and clean if not always original storytelling. |
| 15:29.24 | Amarande | My tendency in most JRPGs is to pump Defense and rely on that and good heals to not have to worry while whittling down the boss. |
| 15:29.38 | Thrae | alestane: Star Ocean 2 is really great gameplay with a really great story. |
| 15:30.05 | Amarande | Of course, there's also the fact that I tend to be a major fan of Shin Megami Tensei, where you pretty much HAVE to concentrate on defense if you want to live. |
| 15:30.14 | alestane | Maybe I'll see if it's on PSN (although I'm sure I can get it used for $5 or something). |
| 15:30.31 | Amarande | (Even then, you don't always get to live ... heh) |
| 15:30.51 | alestane | I wanted to like the Tales of series, but found it a little too bland. |
| 15:31.26 | alestane | I want to take another look at the Seiken Densetsu series, especially because I want to derive their interface fairly strongly for my iPhone RPG design. |
| 15:31.52 | alestane | And that's another series with some fabulous music. |
| 15:32.13 | Kraps | Thrae: fan at 100%, latest drivers |
| 15:32.21 | Amarande | I wish there'd be another Shadow Hearts game, but current thought is that's not going to happen unless some rich fan buys the rights |
| 15:33.05 | Thrae | Amarande: The first Saga Frontier for the PS was probably better than the later ones, even with the slightly broken gameplay. I loved this attack animation more than anything in FF7 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKtpaqJQrJY&feature=player_detailpage#t=70s |
| 15:34.31 | alestane | I wonder if I could compile Silhouette for my iPhone so I could play some of these things on the go. |
| 15:35.09 | Thrae | With Saga Frontier you had 7 inter-connected stories with 7 final bosses with 7 different final boss battles, each one with music by Kenji Ito that really had great symbolism. Genocide Heart's theme, "No Future", speaks of how the robotic protagonist T260G's journey to find his true purpose in life only to find out its to destroy millions to billions of lives under Genocide Heart. |
| 15:35.45 | alestane | And I couldn't get past the intro for like four of the characters. |
| 15:36.19 | alestane | Brilliant idea, but it suffered from Hitchhiker's Guide syndrome in more thanone place. |
| 15:37.40 | Thrae | Or there's a story of Emelia, an ex-model who is framed for murdering her boyfriend and put in a high-security prison. She escapes and is stalked by both the police and whom she is hunting, the real murderer known as "The Joker". After fighting The Joker's most powerful mercenary beast, Emelia defeats The Joker only to find out it's been her brainwashed boyfriend all along. And the two *don't* reconcile. |
| 15:38.38 | Thrae | In the "bad ending" she kills her boyfriend. |
| 15:39.31 | Amarande | The Joker. Have you ever noticed that that seems to be a *very* commonly used villain name? |
| 15:39.38 | Adys | http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/DilbertDailyStrip/~3/KzqCdFMVXyU/ |
| 15:39.47 | Kraps | Thrae: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1612059 ?! |
| 15:40.03 | Amarande | There's Batman, and wasn't there the guy in ... Persona 2, I think? |
| 15:40.11 | alestane | Now if only it hadn't stuck me in a place where the only response I could figure out how to get out of the game was "We've got to defeat Joker!" |
| 15:40.43 | Thrae | Amarande: Yeah it's because they use "The Joker" literally from English in these Japanese games as homages to the Joker from Batman, which is a foreign comic for them. |
| 15:41.05 | Fisker | alestane |
| 15:41.07 | Fisker | i once killed a guy |
| 15:41.11 | alestane | I'm sure there was SOMETHING I could have done to advance the story, but they didn't make it in the least obvious. |
| 15:41.15 | Thrae | As in it's written in Katakana. |
| 15:42.10 | *** join/#wowuidev stolenlegacy_ (~stolenleg@chello213047049244.5.sc-graz.chello.at) |
| 15:42.11 | Thrae | Kraps: Yeah I have heard of that...but I hear of that a lot in driver releases. You can try downgrading the drivers if you wish. The new Nvidia installer lets you do a "clean" install. |
| 15:42.47 | Thrae | Kraps: It didn't happen to me on my GTX 470 and that isn't very different (temperature control-wise) from a GTX 460. If anything it should have been worse on mine. |
| 15:43.32 | mikma | alestane: fister is happy about his headshot in counter strike |
| 15:43.49 | durcyn | fister. |
| 15:44.16 | Thrae | Kraps: It's definitely worth a shot. |
| 15:44.16 | *** join/#wowuidev Robsato (~Robsato@wetering.xs4all.nl) |
| 15:44.24 | Thrae | Kraps: Just make sure you select "Clean INstall" |
| 15:44.31 | Fisker | i once killed a guy durcyn |
| 15:44.57 | durcyn | That's So Fisker |
| 15:45.26 | mikma | oh you motherf**ker -> motherfisker |
| 15:45.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Krapsy (~chatzilla@ool-44c20717.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 15:46.03 | Krapsy | Thrae: do i just download and install? |
| 15:46.10 | Thrae | alestane: Yeah that was a little bit of a problem with Saga Frontier -- sometimes you just had to go places until you figured out how to advance the plot. I would say that's a failure at sandboxing/open world, but I would also say it's just as bad as "let's block of every place except one because you're too stupid to know which way to go" which is often the case in Final Fantasy ;) |
| 15:46.37 | Thrae | Krapsy: Yes, select "Clean Install" and use the previous drivers |
| 15:47.16 | Amarande | Thrae: I think X was the only FF to really do the limited-tour model |
| 15:47.31 | Thrae | Krapsy: http://www.nvidia.com/object/win7-winvista-64bit-258.96-whql-driver.html |
| 15:47.43 | Amarande | X-2 maybe, but you had the airship from start there so you could go most everywhere after the initial mission, except in a couple of cases where the story called specifically for going one place only |
| 15:47.52 | Thrae | Krapsy: Try 258.96 which is part of the 256 branch |
| 15:48.49 | Amarande | Some FF's almost give you TOO much freedom (*cough* II) |
| 15:50.10 | Krapsy | Thrae: i have 32 bit windows |
| 15:50.31 | Thrae | Krapsy: Then get the 32-bit version. And upgrade to 64-bit Windows 7. |
| 15:50.40 | Krapsy | no u |
| 15:51.02 | Thrae | WoW runs a lot better with more memory. |
| 15:51.43 | Amarande | By too much freedom in FFII, I mean, there are two primary things here: |
| 15:51.52 | Amarande | 1) they don't really tell you very clearly where you're supposed to go sometimes |
| 15:52.28 | Amarande | and 2) also, combined with that, at the beginning of the game, you can *very easily* proceed to serenely and happily walk your way into a part of the world map you thought you were supposed to go, and then get your ass handed to you by high rank enemies. |
| 15:52.52 | Amarande | Most games where the latter is the case, there's at least some indication that you shouldn't be in those areas, but not FF2. |
| 15:53.20 | karl_w_w | best way to get nvidia drivers: http://www.laptopvideo2go.com/ |
| 15:55.03 | karl_w_w | instead of downloading 258.96, which is 5 and a half months old now |
| 15:55.20 | Kraps | Thrae: there was no clean install option in the installer |
| 15:55.50 | Kraps | TC-Work: hey you |
| 15:57.19 | Thrae | Kraps: OK, then install http://www.guru3d.com/category/driversweeper/ and uninstall the drivers, boot into safe mode, run the sweeper, reboot, then install the drivers |
| 15:58.20 | Kraps | alread installing/rebooting and whatnot :/ |
| 15:58.52 | A-KO | lol |
| 15:58.53 | A-KO | New years resolution: date more models. Revised: date more girls. Revised: get a date. Revised: stop crying while masturbating. |
| 15:59.09 | Kraps | but i could do it again if needed |
| 15:59.11 | Amarande | ugh, Southshore Fossil Field again |
| 15:59.17 | *** join/#wowuidev isman (~drag@mna75-2-82-67-196-34.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 16:00.34 | Fisker | no Amarande |
| 16:00.36 | Fisker | no ugh's |
| 16:00.39 | Fisker | DO IT |
| 16:01.10 | Lunessa | A-KO: Baby steps. |
| 16:01.23 | Fisker | i had a annoying one though |
| 16:01.23 | A-KO | true dat |
| 16:01.28 | *** join/#wowuidev WonTu (~WonTu@p57B53D77.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:01.31 | Fisker | it kept throwing me around in circles |
| 16:01.35 | Fisker | until i just went somewhere else |
| 16:01.41 | Amarande | Fisker: as alliance, it's annoying since it's rather far from any near FPs, and it also stretches between *three* horde outposts |
| 16:01.42 | *** part/#wowuidev WonTu (~WonTu@p57B53D77.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:01.50 | Amarande | thankfully, I'm in the 60s, I'd HATE to get that fossil field in the 20s though |
| 16:01.55 | Fisker | flightpaths? |
| 16:02.01 | Fisker | what are those now? |
| 16:02.13 | Amarande | especially if horde hillsbrad guards are as aggro happy as the southshore alliance ones were in LK |
| 16:02.34 | Fisker | isn't it those silly travel systems for low level players? |
| 16:02.51 | Amarande | Fisker: also the faster travel for long distances when you don't have epic flying yet :p |
| 16:03.22 | Fisker | i autorun toggle for fragments |
| 16:03.39 | Fisker | yay |
| 16:03.44 | Fisker | finally got some more vrykul digs |
| 16:03.59 | Fisker | and people said nerubian digs were rare |
| 16:05.00 | *** join/#wowuidev Krapsy (~chatzilla@ool-44c20717.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 16:05.33 | Krapsy | yeah that didnt woek |
| 16:05.47 | Krapsy | so how do i use driversweeper? |
| 16:06.07 | Fisker | lol |
| 16:06.11 | Fisker | kraps |
| 16:06.12 | Fisker | lol. |
| 16:06.15 | Fisker | for what btw? |
| 16:06.21 | Amarande | Fisker: isn't all you get in NR vrykul and nerubian? |
| 16:06.28 | clever | Amarande: i was doing an uldum digsite yesterday |
| 16:06.43 | Fisker | you get troll and night elf as well Amarande |
| 16:06.49 | alestane | Amarande, you might be interested in Daniel Floyd's YouTube series about the various trends and potential improvements in the videogame industry: http://www.youtube.com/user/kirithem#p/u |
| 16:06.50 | clever | Amarande: it was in the middle of an area where a giant statue comes to life and kills everything in site (part of a quest) |
| 16:06.53 | Amarande | 1-60 is troll, night elf, dwarf, and fossil ... outland is orc and draenei ... NR is vrykul and nerubian, and Cata areas are tol'vir and one other type I can't remember |
| 16:06.54 | alestane | It starts here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jdG2LHair0 |
| 16:06.57 | clever | so i was dodging fireballs and AOE's while surveying:P |
| 16:07.08 | clever | made it much more interesting |
| 16:07.23 | Fisker | cata is only tol'vir |
| 16:07.45 | Fisker | and northrend got troll and night elf digs |
| 16:07.52 | Fisker | only one night elf dig i think though |
| 16:08.47 | Krapsy | Thrae: i just follow the instructions on the guru3d page? |
| 16:09.18 | Fisker | you're not trying to uninstall your graphics drivers right? |
| 16:09.44 | Kraps | why not Fisker |
| 16:09.49 | Kraps | i hat them |
| 16:09.54 | Kraps | hate* |
| 16:10.06 | Fisker | both nvidia and ati got driver uninstallers in their driver installers |
| 16:10.10 | cog|work | RAWR |
| 16:10.44 | alestane | mauls cog|work and devours him messily. No challenges! |
| 16:12.01 | cog|work | cannibal! |
| 16:13.17 | Amarande | Fisker: night elf digs are almost entirely in kalimdor |
| 16:13.24 | Amarande | I've only ever seen one even in the Eastern Kingdoms |
| 16:13.34 | clever | and one in northrend |
| 16:13.42 | Fisker | yeah i know |
| 16:14.08 | Krapsy | Fisker: i dont see it |
| 16:14.25 | *** join/#wowuidev ckknight (~ckknight@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/CurseStaff/CurseForge/ckknight) |
| 16:14.25 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o ckknight] by ChanServ |
| 16:14.42 | Fisker | download the newest driver? |
| 16:14.42 | Krapsy | i want to roll back |
| 16:14.47 | Fisker | lols |
| 16:14.49 | clever | Fisker, Amarande: http://www.wowwiki.com/Archaeology_locations |
| 16:15.10 | clever | 4 NE in EK |
| 16:15.24 | Fisker | no wowwiki pl0x |
| 16:15.48 | nicoli_s | i love when yer hate is a good thing fisker |
| 16:15.57 | Krapsy | i'll just use device manager |
| 16:16.19 | Fisker | the driver should have a "customize" or "advanced" install |
| 16:16.20 | Amarande | you know, if tol'vir is the only cata level archaeology area |
| 16:16.24 | Amarande | er, race |
| 16:16.25 | Fisker | those have the option of uninstalling them usually |
| 16:16.35 | Amarande | then why do people pay so much for tol'vir tablets? you'd think gathering enough fragments would be easy |
| 16:16.45 | Amarande | (and you only get credit for 12 per tablet, generally) |
| 16:17.04 | Fisker | ^^ |
| 16:17.23 | Fisker | i'm guessing alchemists who are kind of silly |
| 16:17.32 | Fisker | i usually outtablet'd my research |
| 16:17.44 | Fisker | with more fragments being needed i guess that still holds true |
| 16:17.48 | Amarande | unless there's something where it won't complete without a tablet no matter how many fragments you have, but as yet I haven't encountered any |
| 16:17.52 | Amarande | though I've heard talk there might be some rares |
| 16:18.11 | Fisker | don't need tablets for any of it as far as i know |
| 16:18.18 | clever | Amarande: some quests need tablets |
| 16:18.21 | Fisker | but the rare ones need up to 180 fragments to do or so |
| 16:18.22 | clever | they also sell for lots on the AH |
| 16:18.38 | Fisker | what quests would that be? |
| 16:18.49 | clever | Fisker: the dungeon buffs |
| 16:19.00 | Fisker | :O? |
| 16:19.05 | Fisker | EXPLAIN |
| 16:19.19 | *** join/#wowuidev mckenziemc (~mckenziem@dialup-4.246.248.25.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net) |
| 16:19.23 | clever | Fisker: the one in blackrock depths costs a dwarf keystone and reduces all elemental damage by 5% |
| 16:19.26 | clever | for the whole party |
| 16:19.36 | Fisker | permanently or what? |
| 16:19.40 | clever | for that run |
| 16:19.42 | clever | http://www.wowhead.com/quest=28804 |
| 16:19.49 | Fisker | then i still don't get it :/ |
| 16:19.54 | Adys | dinging all 5 Cata reps exalted at the same time. ftw. |
| 16:19.57 | clever | it makes the dungeon run 5% easyer :P |
| 16:20.04 | Fisker | i disagree Adys |
| 16:20.09 | Fisker | and clever |
| 16:20.25 | clever | Fisker: http://www.wowhead.com/quests=5.-377 |
| 16:21.18 | Fisker | i could understand it if they made it permanent inside the dungeon |
| 16:21.26 | Fisker | but that is just pointless |
| 16:22.06 | clever | might be something you would use for a guild run to make things go faster |
| 16:22.50 | clever | it kinda acts as a way to force people to farm keystones, to force everybody to level archaeology |
| 16:23.02 | Fisker | maybe if my brain was made of manure |
| 16:23.14 | clever | and you need high skill to use the quests, so you have to level the 85's |
| 16:23.36 | Fisker | didn't work then |
| 16:23.41 | Fisker | done all heroics without it |
| 16:23.53 | clever | 5% less damage will make those easyer |
| 16:23.55 | Fisker | silly geese |
| 16:24.09 | clever | wont need to grind out as much gear:P |
| 16:24.12 | Fisker | indeed it will |
| 16:24.51 | Fisker | but by the time i wasted time to get it i would've been decked in full 346 gear and facerolling through it instead of having a temporary buff that probably doesn't even last through death |
| 16:25.10 | clever | it lasts thru death |
| 16:25.32 | Fisker | my point still stands |
| 16:25.34 | clever | even hits new members when the random finder brings a replacement in |
| 16:25.35 | karl_w_w | Amarande: because the tol'vir digsites (in uldum) share spawn with the rest of kalimdor |
| 16:27.09 | Amarande | karl: ah, so when you get access to cata areas they count as part of your four per continent, they aren't extra like outland and northrend |
| 16:27.23 | karl_w_w | nop |
| 16:27.24 | TC-Work | Kraps: |
| 16:27.26 | Amarande | are there no keystones for fossils, btw? |
| 16:27.30 | karl_w_w | no |
| 16:28.06 | Amarande | and when do I start getting rarer artifacts? I'm at 232 and still only grey vendor trash so far |
| 16:28.26 | clever | Amarande: completely random |
| 16:28.27 | Kraps | TC-Work: what looks interesting today? Bully and Trials to me |
| 16:28.42 | TC-Work | Kraps: err...it doesnt spawn till 10 am PST |
| 16:28.46 | TC-Work | respawn* |
| 16:29.04 | karl_w_w | its not completely random |
| 16:29.20 | karl_w_w | most (maybe all) of them have a minimum level when you could start getting them |
| 16:29.20 | TC-Work | Kraps: i still have 1:30:50 left till it resets |
| 16:29.27 | Amarande | also, this xp for gathering thing is throwing my balance off badly |
| 16:29.39 | Amarande | I'm starting to think I may need to grind archaeology in longer sessions |
| 16:29.47 | Amarande | simply to *avoid rested xp* as much as possible |
| 16:29.58 | TC-Work | Kraps: yea, thats yesterdays stuff |
| 16:30.09 | clever | Amarande: theres a dude that turns exp off, you can probly use him before/after each session |
| 16:30.11 | karl_w_w | achievements tell me i finished my first rare before i reached 150 skill |
| 16:30.16 | Amarande | halfway through 65 and not even out of hellfire. and I was grinding archaeology to catch up so I can do it while questing in outland, but at this rate I might outlevel outland first :P |
| 16:30.17 | TC-Work | Kraps: i got CoD and AC2 |
| 16:30.19 | clever | twink archaeology:P |
| 16:30.56 | Fisker | black ops? |
| 16:30.59 | clever | Amarande: carefull with that, you wont have the right gear to do outlands and beyond |
| 16:31.12 | TC-Work | Fisker: 4 |
| 16:31.17 | Fisker | LOL |
| 16:31.27 | clever | raw exp wont keep you alive |
| 16:32.11 | *** join/#wowuidev brykrys (~chatzilla@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Dev/Brykrys) |
| 16:32.14 | Kraps | TC-Work: cod doesnt interest me and i have AC2 |
| 16:32.39 | nicoli_s | just play the dead space 2 demo over and over |
| 16:33.17 | Amarande | clever: yeah, I might have to spend some of this 3000g or so on the AH to get up to date on gear then :S |
| 16:33.58 | clever | Amarande: one example i read was leveling 80-85 on arch, then you cant random into any dungeon |
| 16:34.12 | *** join/#wowuidev Yoshimo (~Miranda@p54998EF2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:34.20 | clever | so you have to go back and redo the 80-85 quests you worked to avoid:P |
| 16:35.00 | Fisker | what's that last entry in the archaeology journal that's greyed out? |
| 16:35.28 | clever | ive heard it wont repeat a common artifact until youve seen every common atleast once |
| 16:35.29 | Amarande | clever: randoms are annoying enough to quest into as it is |
| 16:35.40 | Fisker | not true clever |
| 16:35.46 | Amarande | especially if, as I've mentioned before, you raided specifically at the 264 ilvl |
| 16:36.12 | Amarande | It's not till 289+ greens start showing up that you really get definite upgrades, but SC and VP still expect you to have 272 and thus to get and keep those quest greens |
| 16:37.31 | *** join/#wowuidev foxlit (~anonymous@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 16:38.00 | *** join/#wowuidev Odlaw (ozzy@c-98-245-3-204.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 16:38.46 | Fisker | i heard that it's a fixed chance of getting a rare project, i.e. something like 80% chance of getting a common then 20% of a rare, and that some rares cannot be repeated, thus giving you a higher chance for the other projects |
| 16:39.05 | *** join/#wowuidev daev (~bleh@pool-71-188-132-215.aubnin.fios.verizon.net) |
| 16:39.46 | Amarande | so, has it been determined yet whether the Robe of Winter Night and Greater Arcane Protection Potion recipes are retired or if they drop somewhere else now? |
| 16:40.38 | *** join/#wowuidev Warloco (~theunknow@abarelds.xs4all.nl) |
| 16:41.25 | Fisker | damn jerks bugged my digsite |
| 16:41.46 | Warloco | Is there any auctionhouse addon that lets you do an "advanced search"? ie: only items with intellect, without spirit for example |
| 16:42.32 | clever | Warloco: id use wowhead to find the item names, and then make a shoping list in auctionator |
| 16:42.38 | clever | then search for everything in the list |
| 16:42.52 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (~funk@82.111.127.22) |
| 16:42.52 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (~funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 16:42.59 | sylvanaar_work | android market purchase refund period being 15 min now, that might help developers a lot |
| 16:43.46 | mckenziemc | i want my addon to add a button next to the Train button in trainer windows, but i have no clue where to start : / |
| 16:43.54 | mckenziemc | never done graphical stuff before |
| 16:44.49 | mckenziemc | guess i'll try to find what ARL does |
| 16:45.57 | mckenziemc | hmm, apparently its Scan button is unnamed |
| 16:46.27 | Amarande | Ok, what's the difference between The Innkeeper's Daughter and your garden variety hearthstone? |
| 16:46.55 | clever | Amarande: you wont wind up with a facefull of shotgun:P |
| 16:49.26 | Fisker | a bit of RP if your hearth is set to IF apparently |
| 16:50.15 | Fisker | i was hoping for my own personal innkeeper |
| 16:51.29 | Amarande | oh, wow, that would have been EMBARRASSING ... |
| 16:51.32 | Kraps | Thrae: still running at 70C with an old driver |
| 16:51.37 | Kraps | meh |
| 16:51.49 | Amarande | Few more minutes and I might have been killed, at 65, by afking, by a level *20* mob that spawned |
| 16:53.52 | clever | lol |
| 16:54.02 | Amarande | imagines the level of fail of dying to a mob 45 levels below |
| 16:54.08 | clever | my 80 has died once or twice in blackrock depths |
| 16:54.12 | Amarande | never mind that, how does a mob 45 levels below even *hit* you? |
| 16:54.19 | clever | 20-30 guys wailing on me:P |
| 16:54.23 | Amarande | you'd think hit chance would have decayed to the minimum 5% or 1% or so by then |
| 16:54.30 | Amarande | yet, melee mobs seem to hit no matter what your level |
| 16:54.35 | clever | i just ignored them and let them pile up too much |
| 16:54.41 | Amarande | only caster mobs ever seem to gain miss chance when you level up past them |
| 16:54.49 | Amarande | I'm not sure why this is the case. |
| 16:55.37 | Amarande | but it does seem like melee mobs have perfect hit rating no matter *how* high your level. |
| 16:55.46 | mckenziemc | !api CreateFrame |
| 16:55.47 | lua_bot | CreateFrame: Creates a new Frame object (http://wowprogramming.com/docs/api/CreateFrame) |
| 16:56.54 | *** join/#wowuidev Aeyan (~pancake@cpe-024-163-016-179.triad.res.rr.com) |
| 16:57.29 | *** join/#wowuidev Lulia (~BleaS@pool-173-76-192-176.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) |
| 16:57.56 | Lulia | God, I hate these stupid permissions things in Windows :( |
| 16:58.11 | Lulia | How can I not have permission to delete my own folders? :-/ |
| 16:58.22 | mckenziemc | !api SetPoint |
| 16:58.23 | lua_bot | Region:SetPoint: Sets an anchor point for the region (http://wowprogramming.com/docs/widgets/Region/SetPoint) |
| 16:58.31 | mckenziemc | set the right permissions on your folders :p |
| 17:02.48 | Lulia | I have, mckenziemc |
| 17:02.52 | Lulia | I am the effective owner |
| 17:03.09 | *** join/#wowuidev Srosh (~Srosh@d038027.adsl.hansenet.de) |
| 17:03.12 | Lulia | But I shouldn't have to. I'm the only account, and it's an admin account |
| 17:03.26 | Lulia | I shouldn't run into random issues where I have to reset the permissions because the OS is too dumb to figure it out |
| 17:04.13 | Lulia | lol, I require permission from myself to make changes to it! |
| 17:05.10 | mckenziemc | i have a folder on the root of my drive devoted to WoW, and i set an explicit 'Full Control' on it for the Users group >< |
| 17:07.15 | Dagmar | Odd. MOst people would say you should actually know how to work your OS's access control lists |
| 17:07.32 | Dagmar | mckenziemc is doing it the easy way. :) |
| 17:08.17 | Lulia | brb, restarting my computer to see if that fixes the issue |
| 17:08.26 | Lulia | And Dagmar, I'm sorry, but you like to troll me |
| 17:08.37 | Lulia | So I'm not going to give anything you say any creedance |
| 17:08.55 | Lulia | I worked in Tech services in my school for 4 years, it's not like I'm ignorant about computers |
| 17:09.08 | Dagmar | You've got it all backwards |
| 17:09.09 | Lulia | It's ridiculous what they make users do just to have control over their own OS |
| 17:09.17 | Dagmar | You don't have to be ignorant about computers to fall afoul of complex ACLs |
| 17:09.55 | Lulia | This is basic stuff, all I want to do is delete a folder for a program. It's one thing to ask me for permission, that makes sense, so that some malicious software can't do it automatically |
| 17:10.10 | Jamash | she's right, ntfs is ridiculous |
| 17:10.11 | Lulia | It's another to tell me, the only account on the computer, with ownership of the file, that I need to ask myself permission |
| 17:10.12 | Dagmar | Microsoft has kept the ACLs hidden for so many years their file manager interface just doesn't make it anything approaching 'easy' to see what they are |
| 17:10.15 | Lulia | He |
| 17:10.31 | Jamash | you got a sex change? |
| 17:10.32 | Lulia | Maybe I'll see if I can get a name change on WoWI >.> |
| 17:10.42 | Lulia | Then I'll change it in here |
| 17:10.42 | Dagmar | lulia: That's no different from Linux, actually. You just dont' get to _easily see_ that you don't have write permissions (for exampel) |
| 17:10.44 | Lulia | Anyways, brb |
| 17:10.52 | Amarande | Microsoft has practically gotten so obsessed about blocking the effects of malware that they make things even harder on legitimate software than almost any other OS vendor. |
| 17:10.53 | Lulia | I set Write permissions too, but, brb |
| 17:10.59 | Jamash | ntfs perms are 100x more complicated than linux perms |
| 17:11.05 | Dagmar | Jamash++ |
| 17:11.22 | Dagmar | ...although you can GET complex ACLs under Linux, they're _still_ easier to deal with there |
| 17:11.23 | Dagmar | hehe |
| 17:12.17 | Dagmar | They should probablt have never allowed 'full control' to exist |
| 17:12.36 | Jamash | you can't lock out the root of a drive on linux so that even root can't edit the perms, as far as I know |
| 17:12.53 | Dagmar | You can't lock anything up to the point where root can't edit it |
| 17:12.59 | Dagmar | That's the point of uid 0 |
| 17:13.07 | Jamash | whereas you can in windows |
| 17:13.31 | Amarande | Jamash: Yeah. WTB ability to elevate myself to SYSTEM without having to dig around black hat guides. |
| 17:13.43 | Jamash | at which point you have to dig out a disk editor or something |
| 17:14.15 | clever | Dagmar: ive messed with the ACL's on the school computers before |
| 17:14.19 | *** join/#wowuidev Lulia (~BleaS@pool-173-76-192-176.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) |
| 17:14.23 | clever | i deleted admins perms to view my desktop:P |
| 17:14.34 | clever | when he found out and fixed it, he deleted my perms to the desktop |
| 17:14.38 | clever | all of them.... |
| 17:14.40 | Jamash | nice |
| 17:14.41 | Dagmar | Haha |
| 17:14.49 | clever | if even 1 pixel of the desktop was visible |
| 17:14.54 | clever | explorer would bitch and complain:P |
| 17:15.05 | Jamash | ntfs is bad news |
| 17:15.14 | Lulia | *sighs* |
| 17:15.21 | Jamash | it's the all-singing all-dancing file system |
| 17:15.39 | Dagmar | Complete with non-euclidian permissions geometry |
| 17:16.11 | Amarande | why does Microsoft keep seeing fit to limit our privileges as users of our own PCs more and more? |
| 17:16.20 | Jamash | for two reasons |
| 17:16.26 | Jamash | one, they think you're stupid |
| 17:16.32 | Amarande | or is the malware threat an existential level one I'm shrugging off the importance of too readily? |
| 17:16.43 | Dagmar | Amarande: Becuase for years and years they stood around and said "Everyone can edit everything by default" which has burned them countless times |
| 17:16.46 | Jamash | two, so you can't copy blu-rays |
| 17:16.51 | Amarande | I suppose if they didn't do it, it might take only one virus to completely end the current economic turnaround :| |
| 17:17.22 | Dagmar | Amarande: You mean like Blaster? |
| 17:17.32 | Jamash | no, it's easier for viruses to get full control over your pc than for you to |
| 17:18.14 | clever | i virus could use ACL's to prevent you from deleting it |
| 17:18.20 | Lulia | My account has Full Control, Modify, Read & Execute, List Folder Contents, Read, and Write. It's listed as the Owner |
| 17:18.24 | clever | maybe to prevent the anti-virus from even reading it |
| 17:18.27 | Lulia | And yet I still can't delete the folder |
| 17:19.04 | Jamash | Lulia: have you tried using an admin command line? |
| 17:19.08 | Dagmar | Parent folder permissions |
| 17:19.12 | alestane | This is an excellent trend to recognize: http://textsfromlastnight.com/Text-Replies-23534.html |
| 17:19.46 | Lulia | Not yet, Jamash |
| 17:22.23 | Lulia | Ah ha, figured it out |
| 17:22.31 | Lulia | Windows was reporting permissions issues, but that wasn't it |
| 17:23.07 | Amarande | ... Blizzard has been watching hentai far too much during this expansion's development cycle, I think ;) |
| 17:23.16 | Lulia | O.o? |
| 17:23.18 | Lulia | huh? |
| 17:23.31 | Amarande | Lulia: all these places with tentacles coming up out of the ground, often grabbing something |
| 17:23.38 | Jamash | Amarande: totally |
| 17:24.20 | Amarande | also, it is DEFINITELY easier for Horde to get the Explorer title now than for Alliance. |
| 17:24.32 | Lulia | Why is that? |
| 17:24.34 | Amarande | Only slightly, but definitely. At least, if you want to do it with a minimum of death and not need spirit rezzes. |
| 17:24.58 | Jamash | Amarande: Do you mean without a flying mount? |
| 17:24.58 | Amarande | Lulia: because Horde can overfly Teldrassil now, removing the one place that really was hard, and other than that only has to worry about the level 90 guards by the baby area in Azuremyst |
| 17:25.18 | Amarande | Alliance, on the other hand, HAS to enter Silvermoon City. There IS NO WAY to get it by scraping around it hoping it credits you like some other places. |
| 17:25.25 | Amarande | And you can't fly in Eversong, so you HAVE to go in through the gate. |
| 17:25.36 | Amarande | Of course, Silvermoon City barely ever has any players, but what it does have is guards. TONS of guards. |
| 17:25.40 | Lulia | Wait, we cant fly in Azuremyst or Eversong? |
| 17:25.45 | Amarande | Guards that hit for 8k a hit. |
| 17:25.47 | Jamash | Amarande: use the undercity teleporter then teleport back derp derp |
| 17:25.47 | mckenziemc | nope |
| 17:26.00 | mckenziemc | Jamash: not usable for alliance |
| 17:26.07 | Jamash | really? they fixed that? |
| 17:26.12 | mckenziemc | tried that during Pilgrim's Bounty |
| 17:26.13 | Amarande | Lulia: can't fly in BC 1-20 areas, no |
| 17:26.22 | Jamash | I'm shocked |
| 17:26.45 | Amarande | Basically, you have to go into Silvermoon via the gate, you're *going* to die, and you're *going* to almost certainly need a spirit rez to get out of Dodge. |
| 17:27.06 | Amarande | For Horde, there is no similar obstacle, because the Exodar counts as explored (and as zoning in) so far out from the actual city |
| 17:27.16 | clever | Amarande: i remember sitting IN THE MIDDLE OF SILVER MOON, eating to regain health |
| 17:27.27 | clever | i rezed in a sweet spot between guards where none agro'd :P |
| 17:27.28 | Amarande | clever: you have to get inside it first to do that |
| 17:27.39 | clever | yeah i did die on the way out |
| 17:27.48 | Amarande | It makes Teldrassil seem poorly guarded |
| 17:28.00 | clever | orgimar too |
| 17:28.01 | Warloco | @ Clever: I know thats possible- it'd just be nice to have that functionality on the AH |
| 17:28.06 | Amarande | Orgrimmar is easy now |
| 17:28.10 | Lulia | Well, the real problem here is them not letting you fly in those zones |
| 17:28.13 | clever | i sat ontop of a blimp in stranglethorn |
| 17:28.14 | Lulia | Did they give a reason? |
| 17:28.16 | Amarande | Get to max height on a flying mount, and you get credit without anyone seeing you |
| 17:28.21 | clever | the blimp beamed into orgimar :P |
| 17:28.31 | Amarande | Of course you might want to keep a low profile for the next five minutes, but you can get Org without any danger |
| 17:28.53 | Amarande | Lulia: for the Blood Elf areas it's partly because the areas *are not complete* |
| 17:28.56 | clever | i landed dead center inside the city and was never touched |
| 17:29.03 | Jamash | Amarande: pve server weenie |
| 17:29.08 | Warloco | is there some technical limitation that prevents addon from doing something like an advanced seach in the AH? (Or atleast parsing AH results through an "advanced search" imposed filter?) |
| 17:29.15 | Lulia | Amarande, I sort of assumed that, but why didn't they fix it when they did the old world? |
| 17:29.26 | Amarande | Jamash: I have friends who play on PvP servers and have increasingly regretted the decision since Cata hit |
| 17:29.26 | *** join/#wowuidev airtonix (~airtonix@unaffiliated/airtonix) |
| 17:29.32 | Amarande | ganking is at an all time high now |
| 17:30.02 | Jamash | Amarande: I installed VanasKOS and it's been awesome |
| 17:30.21 | Jamash | Amarande: now I can revenge-kill people without guilt |
| 17:30.28 | clever | do the guards just not touch you at all once you rez?, until you move? |
| 17:31.12 | Jamash | yeah I do get killed while questing, but then I go and kill the person who killed me two or three times |
| 17:32.14 | Amarande | Jamash: there's enough competitive action what with node and mob competition even within one's own faction without worrying about world PvP. |
| 17:32.35 | mikma | shirik: http://www.gamefront.com/34-cortana-cosplayers-hot-and-not-hot-pics/?pid=4198 |
| 17:32.48 | Lulia | Hmm, there's definitely an AddOn eating up my framerate, now to figure out which one iti s. |
| 17:33.38 | clever | Lulia: do you have tomtom? |
| 17:34.35 | clever | tomtom was crippling my old system every time i change floor in a dungeon |
| 17:34.51 | clever | like say, i step into the room with a boss in blackrock caverns :P |
| 17:35.35 | clever | by chance, i found that opening the map fixes it, until i change floor again |
| 17:35.43 | Lulia | Yeah, I didn't have it at first, but I threw it in and I think it's the culprit |
| 17:36.02 | clever | just tap m and see if it recovers |
| 17:36.13 | Lulia | It's behaving itself right now |
| 17:36.17 | *** join/#wowuidev Zasurus (~Zasurus@78-105-174-15.zone3.bethere.co.uk) |
| 17:36.35 | Lulia | Sort of makes me want to make my next AddOn though, but I have to finish Power Bars, first :P |
| 17:36.52 | Dagmar | clever: That same issue happens to screw up some other instances as well. Stonecore for one |
| 17:36.58 | Lulia | Planning on making one called Waypoints |
| 17:37.16 | Dagmar | Doesnt' seem to like it much when the coordinates change |
| 17:38.30 | clever | Dagmar: ive found that the minimap from M fixes it a bit better |
| 17:38.49 | clever | the odd thing, is that it hasnt had a single problem on the good system |
| 17:39.43 | Dagmar | Well, in Stonecore once your'e in the latter half, you'll see 0,0 as your coordinates and when you try to open the dungeon map it flips out to the world map almost immediately |
| 17:39.57 | Dagmar | ...I'm guessing because it's decided youc an't possibly be in Stonecore or something |
| 17:40.12 | clever | i have had tomtom shit itself in a similar way outdoors |
| 17:40.16 | Dagmar | A reloadui makes it stop malfunctioning, but it's still annoying |
| 17:40.17 | Lulia | Holy shit, Hulu remembered where I was in the movie |
| 17:40.21 | Lulia | <3 Hulu |
| 17:40.40 | Dagmar | Yeah |
| 17:40.57 | clever | if you go beyond the edge of the map and there is no other map to cover where you are, it hits 0.1 FPS |
| 17:41.00 | clever | like flying from southshore to IF, directly |
| 17:41.20 | Lulia | It's bringing me down to roughly 18fps right now |
| 17:41.43 | clever | thats nothing |
| 17:41.48 | Lulia | reload isn't fixing it, I think I'm just going to dump TomTom |
| 17:41.55 | Lulia | It makes playing it choppy, Clever |
| 17:42.00 | Lulia | So that's not "nothing" |
| 17:42.06 | clever | 18fps is nothing compared to my problem |
| 17:42.09 | Lulia | I used to play with sub 10 fps, I know how bad it can get |
| 17:42.14 | clever | my problem is 5 seconds per frame |
| 17:42.15 | Lulia | But it's still hardly playable |
| 17:42.25 | clever | i cant even chat or walk at that point |
| 17:42.37 | clever | Dagmar: i think its when GetCurrentMapDungeonLevel() changes value |
| 17:42.44 | Thrae | Lulia: There's TomTomLite |
| 17:44.25 | Lulia | Yeah, I have that, I used TomTom specifically because I threw in the Wow-pro addon |
| 17:44.33 | Lulia | Which taps into TomTom's waypoint feature |
| 17:45.04 | Lulia | See, the really odd thing is I just got rid of TomTom and I still have a shitty framerate |
| 17:45.08 | Lulia | It's something else :-/ |
| 17:45.18 | mikma | TAAAAANK! http://www.gamefront.com/20-scary-cosplays-pics-spoooooooky/?pid=4043 |
| 17:45.27 | Lulia | But if I disable all the AddOns, I'll still have shit for frame rate |
| 17:45.44 | Lulia | The framerate only fixed itself when I deleted the WTF, Cache and Interface folders completely |
| 17:46.08 | clever | Lulia: if all addons are disabled then deleting interface should do nothing |
| 17:46.11 | zenzelezz | why are people like this even coding? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4519675/what-does-a-cannot-open-include-file-error-mean-in-visual-c-2010 |
| 17:46.28 | clever | zenzelezz: lol |
| 17:48.04 | Lulia | clever: But it does |
| 17:48.30 | clever | Lulia: sounds like something is wrong then, very wrong |
| 17:48.46 | clever | but without WOW's source code, we have no way to verify or fix it |
| 17:49.41 | Lulia | I never said something wasn't very wrong |
| 17:49.41 | Lulia | :P |
| 17:50.42 | clever | i'm currently working on fixing err:d3d:resource_init Out of adapter memory |
| 17:50.53 | airtonix | zenzelezz, you should be honest about yourself when asking questions |
| 17:51.04 | clever | if i turn my video settings up too high in wow, entire polygons will randomly vanish, sometimes the entire screen |
| 17:51.13 | Lulia | Hmm, I think I figured it out |
| 17:51.14 | Amarande | *grumble* |
| 17:51.17 | airtonix | Step 1: Is it plugged in? |
| 17:51.19 | clever | leaving me flying half blind and no way to turn it back down |
| 17:51.25 | Amarande | I hate it when an area explore achievement requires a spot that *isn't required to reveal the whole map* |
| 17:51.33 | Amarande | It SAYS, "revealing the covered areas of the world map" |
| 17:51.45 | clever | Amarande: yeah, i still cant finish uldam |
| 17:51.47 | Amarande | yet, for sooooo many areas there's like, *one tiny little spot* that's required that doesn't actually give any map. |
| 17:51.54 | Nobgul | use tom tom |
| 17:51.58 | Nobgul | Much easier =P |
| 17:52.11 | clever | i did stumble across the raid entrance, which isnt on the achievement but was just peeking out |
| 17:52.20 | clever | half the problem is that the uncovered areas are sand color:P |
| 17:52.33 | clever | same as the covered areas |
| 17:54.21 | Lulia | When I get some money, I'm rebuilding my computer. The sad thing is my computer isn't that bad, and yet it has trouble, apparently, doing video and playing WoW at the same time :P |
| 17:55.05 | clever | dual core here, i cant vdpau and wow at the same time, but XV and wow work fine together |
| 17:55.30 | clever | if vdpau is in use when wow starts, wine just spews errors and then wow wants to send an error report |
| 17:55.45 | Lulia | I have a semi-decent graphics card, quad core AMD processor and 4 gigs of RAM |
| 17:55.58 | Lulia | Plenty of HDD space, two HDDs |
| 17:56.16 | clever | i have no OS HDD |
| 17:57.44 | clever | the entire OS is held in ram |
| 17:57.46 | Lulia | I got a second one because of FRAPS |
| 17:57.55 | Lulia | Which, btw, I can FRAPS and play WoW at the same time just fine |
| 17:57.56 | Lulia | >.> |
| 17:58.13 | Jamash | I run wow on ENIAC |
| 17:58.26 | clever | Jamash: whats your framerate? :P |
| 17:58.33 | clever | 1fpy? |
| 17:58.36 | Jamash | clever: so far, one frame |
| 17:58.41 | Jamash | :P |
| 17:58.54 | clever | fpy==frames per year |
| 17:59.00 | Jamash | yeah I get it |
| 17:59.38 | Lulia | But I'll get some money and design the new system a bit better than this one, though I don't think this system was poorly designed in the first place :P |
| 17:59.58 | clever | Lulia: which OS? |
| 18:01.08 | Lulia | I'll stick with Windows. It gives me problems on occasion, but, usually it's fine |
| 18:01.57 | Jamash | I'm kind of surprised how little I despise win7 |
| 18:02.34 | Jamash | although I have run into some bizarre issues |
| 18:02.45 | Jamash | like fonts growing bigger and bigger and bigger |
| 18:03.10 | Lulia | It's been very small, but very frustrating issues with Win7 |
| 18:03.13 | clever | shuting down for a bit now |
| 18:03.45 | Jamash | a lot of applications do not respond properly to setting text size to 125% |
| 18:03.49 | Lunessa | Windows 7 (64bit) is my default OS at home. It's been a very good user-experience. |
| 18:03.56 | Jamash | including the wow launcher |
| 18:04.02 | Jamash | and the starcraft II map editor |
| 18:04.22 | Jamash | text gets bigger but it's constrained to fixed-size widgets so it gets truncated |
| 18:05.23 | Jamash | fark, can't use the IQD portal at level 59 |
| 18:07.15 | sylvanaar_work | ever tried playing wow over logmein? 1 frame per 10 seconds |
| 18:07.25 | Jamash | heh |
| 18:07.43 | Jamash | anyone tried remoting into wow on an ipad? |
| 18:07.52 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraps (~chatzilla@ool-44c20717.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 18:08.05 | sylvanaar_work | its impossible to control |
| 18:08.12 | mikma | http://www.break.com/index/rooster-wake-up-call-prank <- awesome alarmclock |
| 18:08.41 | Kraps | whos who in azzuzas zoo |
| 18:09.16 | Amarande | Jamash: that not being able to use the portal is probably a good thing |
| 18:09.22 | Amarande | wouldn't you like aggro half the zone on zone in at that level? |
| 18:09.31 | Jamash | yeah, probably |
| 18:09.42 | Amarande | I heard of someone who took the zeppelin to Warsong Hold at 45 and got zerged on entry |
| 18:09.47 | Jamash | ouch |
| 18:10.04 | Jamash | yeah you probably want to go to vengeance landing |
| 18:10.36 | Jamash | man, how do alliance get anywhere |
| 18:10.45 | Amarande | Jamash: flying mounts? :) |
| 18:10.53 | Amarande | that reminds me, can you train cold weather flying in stormwind now? I forget. |
| 18:11.06 | Jamash | not enough golds on this realm :P |
| 18:11.41 | Jamash | I'm so smart I'm stupid |
| 18:11.42 | Amarande | Jamash, how did you get to 60 and not have enough gold for the flight master's license |
| 18:11.58 | Jamash | I'm like "HOW 2 GET 2 SILVARMOON DERP DERP" |
| 18:12.02 | Jamash | forgot I'm a death knight |
| 18:12.11 | sylvanaar_work | and that helps how? |
| 18:12.21 | Jamash | port to acherus |
| 18:12.31 | sylvanaar_work | means nothing to me |
| 18:12.36 | Amarande | I noticed that you can't get the FP in Acherus when not a death knight. |
| 18:12.40 | Jamash | instant teleport to epl |
| 18:12.47 | Amarande | Even though you can go there now with a flying mount, and can even shop at the food and drink and repair merchants |
| 18:12.59 | Jamash | Amarande: actually you can, you just can't use it |
| 18:13.07 | Jamash | says no connections |
| 18:13.07 | Amarande | Jamash: I didn't even get a green ! |
| 18:13.10 | Jamash | yes |
| 18:13.26 | Jamash | but when I right-clicked I got the message for learning a new flight path |
| 18:14.11 | Fisker | hey Jamash |
| 18:14.12 | Amarande | They should make access for non-DKs a perk for getting exalted with Ebon Blade, or something such. |
| 18:14.26 | Jamash | hey hey Fisker |
| 18:14.56 | mikma | jamash: he performed a headshot in counter strike once |
| 18:15.13 | Jamash | mikma: that's amazing |
| 18:15.46 | Fisker | i did indeed |
| 18:15.49 | Amarande | heh, you know, CTs get another sniper than the AWP, and yet nobody but me seems to favor it |
| 18:15.54 | Jamash | that's infinity percent more headshots than I've gotten in counterstrike |
| 18:16.28 | Amarande | btw, when did they make it so all you had to do was surface to board a flying mount in water? |
| 18:16.44 | Amarande | I always thought you had to be *standing on ground*, i.e. I would always use path of frost first on a DK to be walking on the water |
| 18:16.50 | Fisker | you can mount in water |
| 18:16.56 | Fisker | you don't even have to be on the surface |
| 18:17.15 | Fisker | and i think it's been like that since they put in the patch where you could go through water without being dismounted |
| 18:17.49 | Jamash | you can't mount a flying mount underwater unless it's one of those dual-purpose mounts |
| 18:18.31 | Amarande | Jamash: that I already knew, but I thought it was flat out "can't use while swimming" |
| 18:18.35 | Fisker | oh Jamash |
| 18:18.37 | Amarande | but apparently I can mount just by surfacing first |
| 18:18.42 | Amarande | is that new in 4.0.3a? |
| 18:18.45 | Jamash | Amarande: yes |
| 18:18.54 | Fisker | didn't think of that since i got invincible :P |
| 18:19.12 | Jamash | Fisker: yeah I use the headless horseman's mount for that |
| 18:20.47 | Jamash | so what's the deal with Strike, anyway? Why did they give warriors an ability that's only useful for 9 levels? |
| 18:20.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Seerah (~Ryan@adsl-41-123-78.mem.bellsouth.net) |
| 18:20.51 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ |
| 18:22.07 | Amarande | also, did they take the wintersaber trainers out or am I missing something? (granted, I've never quested at all in Winterspring as Alliance before.) |
| 18:22.29 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraps (~chatzilla@ool-44c20717.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 18:22.30 | Amarande | I thought they were in that little village with alliance NPCs I always saw on my way up to frostsaber rock as horde, but there's only a couple quests there neither of which seem to have anything to do with cats |
| 18:23.53 | Jamash | http://www.lmwhtfy.com/?search=wintersaber |
| 18:24.34 | mckenziemc | Jamash: so that warriors have a 'base' ability to use for those 9 levels |
| 18:24.44 | Jamash | mckenziemc: why not start with heroic strike? |
| 18:25.01 | Kraps | Thunder_Child: its time |
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| 18:25.40 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Cide] by ChanServ |
| 18:25.58 | Jamash | time to get down? |
| 18:26.38 | Jamash | no wait, I got it |
| 18:26.40 | Jamash | TIME FOR FUN! |
| 18:27.12 | Amarande | *shudder* |
| 18:27.19 | mikma | haste: http://www.break.com/index/lego-nxt-mindstorm-inappropriate-toy.html |
| 18:27.23 | Amarande | Jamash, you forget. I died on that boss maaaany more times than any other in BC dungeons. :p |
| 18:27.56 | Jamash | one of the few encounters that gets more difficult as you gain better gear |
| 18:29.01 | mikma | haste: this is still awesome! http://www.break.com/index/tourettes-guy-does-karaoke |
| 18:29.05 | Amarande | at least until the point where you go in at 80 and burn him before he can even cast MC once |
| 18:29.10 | Kraps | what boss it that |
| 18:29.12 | Kraps | is* |
| 18:29.18 | Amarande | Kraps: 2nd boss, Shadow Lab |
| 18:29.42 | Amarande | I'm still not sure if he uses it when you're soloing - my DK might have burned him down fast enough that he didn't have time, with 5.7K+ DPS at the time |
| 18:30.20 | Amarande | ok, Alliance definitely have an edge over Horde in terms of their questing mount now |
| 18:30.43 | Amarande | it's probably not even too painful to do Wintersaber within a couple days or so once you have 280 or 310 |
| 18:30.51 | Amarande | while Horde needs twenty days no matter what |
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| 18:33.15 | Fisker | blizzard favors alliance |
| 18:34.25 | alestane | Jamash, Heroic Strike's role changed slightly when they made its cost and effect scalable. I'm not sure they wanted to hand level 4s an ability that would do that much damage when they had that much rage behind it. |
| 18:35.02 | alestane | Amarande, when the wintersaber quest line was *relevant*, it was something people spent WEEKS on. |
| 18:35.20 | Amarande | alestane: Mount quest lines never stop being relevant, there's always people looking to collect more mounts. |
| 18:35.54 | Amarande | There's also a few places where you can't use flying mounts but can use ground mounts even at 80+, too ... like parts of Vashj'ir |
| 18:36.03 | alestane | I did the ravasaur line, and it took three weeks and change, but it was incredibly low-stress. |
| 18:36.15 | Jamash | ravasaur is fun |
| 18:36.16 | Fisker | it's awesome they went away from the rep grind because of nerds concept |
| 18:39.27 | Jamash | DKs with wondervolt transforms still have glowing blue eyes |
| 18:40.18 | Lulia | How sick would it be if they made an engineering mount that transformed? So if you're flying it's a helicopter, but if you hit the ground it transforms into a chopper-like thing and if you enter the water it gains a sort of bubble cock-pit. >.> |
| 18:41.42 | Jamash | that would be super awesome ++ |
| 18:42.25 | Lulia | Hmm, so they literally changed almost all the goblin models in the game, but the Worgen Garwal is still an old model? :-/ |
| 18:43.02 | Lulia | I wonder if the Worgen in Grizzly hills are still old models |
| 18:43.29 | Amarande | also, are there still Sons of Arugal in Silverpine to terrify low level horde? |
| 18:43.44 | Jamash | well I was going to try to prove that you can discover silvermoon without dying as alliance |
| 18:43.53 | Jamash | but apparently not |
| 18:44.06 | mckenziemc | anyone know if you can get Macaroon to lock two bars together, so that both move at the same time if i drag one |
| 18:44.50 | alestane | I'm suddenly very tempted to make a machinima around Admiral Ripsnarl to Gilbert and Sullivan's "Model Major General." |
| 18:45.05 | alestane | Modern* |
| 18:45.28 | Seerah | hehe |
| 18:45.39 | Seerah | who doesn't love patter songs? :) |
| 18:45.49 | Lulia | I wonder why they insist on not redoing those two zones, it seems odd to just exclude them |
| 18:46.01 | Jamash | there's antimony arsenic aluminum selenium |
| 18:46.27 | Jamash | Lulia: low ROI |
| 18:47.00 | alestane | That's how I orginally learned the tune, Jamash, and why to this day I can recall all of the first 102 elements. |
| 18:47.39 | Amarande | And of course the one to remember if Kim Jong goes any more berserk ... "Oh we will all go together when we go ... All suffused with an incandescent glow ..." |
| 18:47.53 | alestane | Yes, Seerah, and how do you beat a patter-song delivered by a worgen in an officer's hat? |
| 18:48.01 | Seerah | giggles |
| 18:48.28 | mikma | haste: http://horror.break.com/eaters/sexy-girl-tapes-herself-just-for-you |
| 18:48.29 | alestane | "Noone will have the endurance, to collect on his insurance; Lloyds of London will be loaded when they go." |
| 18:48.40 | Jamash | in related news: http://threepanelsoul.com/view.php?date=2007-06-11s |
| 18:48.41 | Amarande | think they're going to add any more rare artifacts in future patches for archaeology, btw? |
| 18:49.05 | Amarande | so the 85 BoA's in particular can be still reasonably useful and maybe something actually good in fossil besides the mount and minipet? |
| 18:49.40 | Seerah | Jamash: hehe - I have that song in my mp3s... >.> |
| 18:50.41 | Jamash | so getting into silvermoon is tricky, but once there the beehive principle kicks in |
| 18:50.42 | Amarande | Devilsaur Queen. Not seen this mob before. |
| 18:50.47 | Amarande | And it's in my dig site, dammit. |
| 18:50.56 | Jamash | or not |
| 18:51.09 | Jamash | stupid instaspawn guards |
| 18:51.34 | alestane | That's how my friend remembers the capitals of the states, Jamash...give him a few minutes to rattle through "Turkey in the Straw" and he'll name any one you care to ask. |
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| 18:53.44 | Kraps | http://www.gametrailers.com/player/708822.html <---pro game |
| 18:53.55 | Amarande | hmm, I wonder how powerful the devilsaur queen is. |
| 18:54.11 | Fisker | old mikma |
| 18:54.12 | Amarande | 23k HP. I'm ten levels higher but a squishy. Let's see if I humiliate myself. :) |
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| 18:55.05 | mikma | fisker: propably older than you |
| 18:55.27 | Amarande | bah. a wimp but drops no good loot |
| 18:56.16 | Amarande | does Black Lotus still spawn? |
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| 18:56.41 | Amarande | I'm guessing only in Silithus since all the other areas that had it had their levels substantially lowered? |
| 18:58.00 | Jamash | you can mount in acherus now :-O |
| 19:00.36 | Amarande | and speaking of mounts, maybe Blizz does favor alliance |
| 19:01.03 | Amarande | If I recall, Alliance still has access to four of the six Horde mount models, while Horde can now only get *one* of Alliance's, and then only during a specific holidy. |
| 19:01.04 | alestane | Burning Steppes might still spawn Black Lotus, that's where I used to get most of mine and the level hasn't come down nearly as much on that one. |
| 19:01.21 | Amarande | Am I right on that one? |
| 19:01.31 | foxlit | You're /boring/ on that one. |
| 19:01.48 | Amarande | (Chocobo - H MGT, Raptor - Archaeology, Kodo - Brewfest, Undead Horse - Stratholme; Horde can only get the ram, and only from Brewfest) |
| 19:02.13 | Amarande | Used to be Horde could get a cat, but that was taken out with ZG. Meanwhile Alliance's ability to get a raptor is restored, thanks to archaeology. |
| 19:02.39 | Amarande | that reminds me. |
| 19:02.46 | Amarande | what do they plan to do with ZG? I still don't see any mobs or nodes there |
| 19:03.07 | Amarande | (Yet meanwhile non-instanced ZF has mobs, even though they are inaccessible before level 60, yet are level 45 or so like Tanaris itself) |
| 19:03.13 | zenzelezz | guessing ZG is phased |
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| 19:03.47 | Amarande | At least unless there's some way to get to those mobs without a flying mount ... |
| 19:04.18 | zenzelezz | Amarande: I'd also contend that the raptor mount from archaeology doesn't really count, it's just bones |
| 19:10.29 | Amarande | heh this is weird. |
| 19:10.44 | Amarande | Marshal's Refuge has been vacated with the Shattering, but they still have a Christmas tree there |
| 19:11.09 | zenzelezz | it's in honor of Dadanga |
| 19:11.43 | *** join/#wowuidev Mera (~WAAAGH@mera.wish.you.merry.christmas.heapoverflow.com) |
| 19:13.48 | Amarande | also, what are they planning to do with Ahn'Qiraj: The Fallen Kingdom zone? |
| 19:14.05 | Amarande | (And I heard that they eliminated the 20 man raid format entirely and AQ20 is now AQ10?) |
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| 19:18.44 | Amarande | ooh, my first rare artifact-to-work-on |
| 19:19.03 | zenzelezz | which one? |
| 19:19.37 | Amarande | the night elf wind chime |
| 19:19.56 | alestane | Couldn't find a non-Facebook link to this, but it's pretty funny if you can see it: http://www.facebook.com/?page=1&sk=messages&tid=1762043419326#!/video/video.php?v=10150109075574359&comments |
| 19:20.20 | Fisker | it kinda sucks that a lot of those items can only be used outside |
| 19:22.25 | Amarande | I guess now I get to stay in Kalimdor, since Eastern Kingdoms barely gives NE pieces at all |
| 19:24.11 | zenzelezz | yup |
| 19:24.23 | zenzelezz | so far I'm unimpressed with the amount of Tol'vir dig sites I'm getting |
| 19:26.48 | zenzelezz | Amarande: hah, I just got the "task" for the wind chimes too :) |
| 19:27.36 | Amarande | ok, also speaking of exploration achievements being screwed up |
| 19:27.48 | Amarande | not only do they often have goals that aren't even things that pop up on the map |
| 19:28.07 | Amarande | but there's at least one zone (Silithus) where you get the explore achievement and there's still a giant bit of map west of Cenarion Hold undiscovered! |
| 19:29.27 | zid | it being silithus is unsurprising |
| 19:29.58 | zenzelezz | I feel sort of sorry for Silithus. The zone always seemed interesting, but left out |
| 19:30.00 | zid | blizz have said they basicaly came up with nothing for silithus |
| 19:30.25 | Jamash | don't you love it when you pop a dot on a low level mob and your pet kills it before the dot ticks and you don't get the kill? |
| 19:31.04 | zenzelezz | that sort of sucks, but if it's that low level, why do you use a DoT? |
| 19:31.09 | Fisker | silithus was fucking awesome |
| 19:31.12 | Fisker | best zone ever |
| 19:31.13 | Fisker | a++ |
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| 19:32.00 | zid | Jamash: I've done that on quests before now :( |
| 19:32.06 | foxlit | sends Fisker off to get some Silithyst. |
| 19:32.08 | zid | kill command crit, whoops, no quest credit :P |
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| 19:33.08 | A-KO | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyCyzB0CedM&feature=player_embedded |
| 19:33.17 | Amarande | Pre-Cata, I would actually do Silithus on every character |
| 19:33.32 | Amarande | It was a reason I never hit Outland till 63 or so, since I'd always do the Plaguelands, Silithus and Winterspring |
| 19:33.34 | zid | I wouldn't touch it |
| 19:33.36 | zid | fuck killing elites |
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| 19:46.04 | Jamash | zenzelezz: because I forgot I have fel flame |
| 19:47.47 | zenzelezz | Jamash: I see. Being a warrior I forget that instants aren't always a core part of other classes |
| 19:48.02 | Jamash | yeah :( |
| 19:48.11 | Amarande | yay, my next fossil is the minipet |
| 19:48.25 | zenzelezz | Amarande: :-) |
| 19:48.51 | zenzelezz | I'm pretty happy with my wisp transform artifact, just wish it lasted longer |
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| 19:54.02 | Fisker | is there some ~easy way to debug low fps in combat? |
| 19:56.35 | Amarande | actually, I possibly shouldn't be so happy to keep seeing rares come up in a way though :S |
| 19:56.41 | Lunessa | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAG39jKi0lI |
| 19:56.42 | Amarande | I was hoping to get to 300 and then be able to get back to Outland |
| 19:56.47 | Amarande | rares take longer to make, though :) |
| 19:56.59 | Amarande | or do you get more points for a rare? |
| 19:58.01 | Jamash | I think you get triple points for a rare |
| 19:58.41 | Jamash | yeah they hotfixed that in |
| 20:01.14 | Kraps | http://store.steampowered.com/app/31290/ |
| 20:03.08 | Shirik | then I see that I have misjudged |
| 20:03.13 | Shirik | I should not have nudged it after all |
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| 20:05.05 | Shirik | Kraps: Really? |
| 20:05.16 | Kraps | Shirik: what |
| 20:05.20 | Shirik | game |
| 20:05.31 | Kraps | what |
| 20:05.49 | Jamash | who |
| 20:07.48 | Shirik | where |
| 20:07.59 | Fisker | Shirik |
| 20:14.17 | *** join/#wowuidev RJohn (~Tanner@h123.65.149.24.cable.rdwd.jetbroadband.com) |
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| 20:18.29 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v tekkub] by ChanServ |
| 20:22.35 | Arrowmaster | god damnit, i did realize they started doing daily deals on XBL two days ago |
| 20:22.40 | Arrowmaster | i wanted yesterdays deal |
| 20:22.52 | Kraps | TC-Work: nothing interesting today |
| 20:23.11 | Arrowmaster | didnt think they would do any deals this year since they didnt start 12 days before christmas |
| 20:24.03 | TC-Work | Kraps: just got back in the office, i'll check |
| 20:26.40 | Kraps | obviously if you dont have ME2 you are bound by law to get it |
| 20:28.25 | TC-Work | Kraps: i think i'll look at getting; darksiders, risen, wings of prey, ME2, |
| 20:29.10 | Amarande | wow, Vrykul archaeology is *completely* useless |
| 20:30.11 | Amarande | only one rare, and it's a ilvl 226 weapon requiring level 80 |
| 20:30.21 | Amarande | yeah, because you're gonna use that for more than a half hour or so. :) |
| 20:30.49 | Shirik | Woot!! |
| 20:30.52 | Shirik | I just got [Stood in the Fire] |
| 20:31.11 | Amarande | I've gotten that on the DK, and never witnessed Deathwing anywhere else on any other character |
| 20:31.16 | TC-Work | Shirik: so you are flaming now? |
| 20:31.22 | Shirik | I am very hot |
| 20:31.46 | *** join/#wowuidev mckenziemc (~mckenziem@dialup-4.246.251.82.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net) |
| 20:32.31 | Amarande | At least the Nerubian items look like neat fun vanity items. |
| 20:32.58 | Amarande | The Vrykul rare, though, is an item that has no purpose but to be used, and will only be used for a very short time, because you'll have a 272 weapon within the hour once you go to Hyjal or Vashj'ir. |
| 20:33.13 | Jamash | I just made 10k g |
| 20:33.31 | Kraps | http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/146082/bullying |
| 20:34.09 | Kraps | Fisker you made this guy leave the game |
| 20:34.14 | Kraps | you're so mean |
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| 20:38.20 | Kraps | http://www.ripten.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/portal.jpg |
| 20:43.15 | TC-Work | old Kraps >.< |
| 20:43.25 | TC-Work | the portal fad is over |
| 20:43.27 | TC-Work | ! |
| 20:43.47 | Kraps | umm |
| 20:43.48 | Kraps | ? |
| 20:44.01 | TC-Work | umm what? |
| 20:44.21 | Kraps | prtal 2 |
| 20:46.58 | TC-Work | thats not out yet |
| 20:48.31 | Kraps | TC-Work: |
| 20:48.35 | TC-Work | Kraps: |
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| 21:06.14 | Tuller | hrm, so I don't think blizzard wants a macro for tree of life anymore :P |
| 21:09.24 | ProNihilist | how so? |
| 21:09.39 | Kraps | http://www.gamepolitics.com/2010/12/23/some-amusing-letters-santa |
| 21:09.41 | Tuller | the old conditional was [bonusbar:x] |
| 21:09.42 | Primer | what would be macro'd? |
| 21:09.50 | Tuller | the new one needs to be a [form:x] |
| 21:10.00 | Primer | [stance:6] ? |
| 21:10.00 | Tuller | where x is now dependent on how many forms a druid has, etc |
| 21:10.19 | Tuller | for me, 6 is flight form |
| 21:10.27 | Primer | err 5 |
| 21:10.47 | ProNihilist | my dominos isn't paging properly in tree / moonkin form, is this related? |
| 21:10.50 | Primer | I think mine still works |
| 21:11.03 | Tuller | 5 is tree for me right now, yes |
| 21:11.03 | Primer | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:11.12 | Primer | I can hit that all I want |
| 21:11.19 | Primer | and it only makes me a tree if I'm not one |
| 21:11.24 | Kraps | http://www.gamepolitics.com/2010/12/22/cia-says-wtf-wikileaks |
| 21:11.55 | Amarande | you use paging bars? |
| 21:12.31 | ProNihilist | yes |
| 21:13.37 | Tuller | well the good news is that its no longer theoretically possible to have moonkin + tol |
| 21:13.38 | ProNihilist | hmm, working now |
| 21:14.39 | Tuller | so the answer is to merge moonkin + tol into a single bar like in the olden days |
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| 21:29.39 | Tuller | [form:5,nobonusbar:4] may be the actual answer |
| 21:36.26 | Amarande | I usually try to set up action bars based on the build as a whole so I *don't* have to page when I use forms :) |
| 21:37.36 | Amarande | especially since most classes don't often change stances/forms |
| 21:38.08 | Fisker | Amarande |
| 21:38.22 | Amarande | like if you're a shadow priest, you're going to be in shadowform most of the time, unless you're in a situation where you really need to ohshithealnow |
| 21:38.40 | olafski | at which time you use your clique bindings |
| 21:38.53 | Amarande | preeeeecisely. |
| 21:39.02 | olafski | healing from an action bar is so 2004 |
| 21:39.31 | Amarande | I think the time I've changed stances/forms/etc. the most in any character was on my DK during ICC, because there were battles where I was better off with the mobility from Unholy Presence than the extra raw power from Frost (Blood in 3.3) |
| 21:39.49 | Amarande | after all, dead DKs and wiped raids don't do *any* DPS |
| 21:40.02 | olafski | you don't really use different bars for different DK stances though |
| 21:40.37 | Amarande | I'm trying to think of a build for which bars that page with forms are actually useful |
| 21:40.38 | olafski | there are no abilities that only work in certain presences like with warrior, druid, rogue, priest |
| 21:40.55 | Amarande | considering that in a serious raid situation you're unlikely to be using more than one form/stance |
| 21:41.30 | Amarande | tank druid? you'll be in bear all the time. DPS druid? you'll be in cat or moonkin all the time. resto druid? you'll be in caster form unless tree is up, and you really don't need a separate bar for the short times you're a tree, since you'll still be using the same heals. |
| 21:41.45 | olafski | quick blood if the tank dies at the last 2% :) |
| 21:42.06 | olafski | the obvious answer would be warrior though |
| 21:42.10 | Amarande | shadow priest? when are you going to be leaving shadowform unless you need to ohshithealnow, and that's why they made clique |
| 21:42.29 | Amarande | even warrior, there tends to be a specific stance associated with each spec that you rarely leave, no? |
| 21:42.44 | Amarande | if you're prot, you'll be in defensive. if you're fury, you'll be in berserker. if you're arms, you'll be in battle. |
| 21:42.48 | olafski | I don't know how it is in cata.. in ulduar a warrior in my guild sometimes had to switch stance to use pummel |
| 21:43.12 | Amarande | olafski: even then though, do you really need paging action bars? just put pummel on your regular bar |
| 21:43.21 | olafski | aye |
| 21:43.31 | Gnarfoz | shit, someone woke Amarande |
| 21:43.31 | Lunessa | In WotLK my warrior never left Berserker. Ever. Even when I was 'loltanking' |
| 21:43.39 | olafski | I use paging to have my trade skills on bar 2 mostly |
| 21:43.45 | Shirik | Someone, quick |
| 21:43.54 | Shirik | give me a high risk publcly traded company |
| 21:44.05 | Amarande | the only real reason to use paging action bars would be if you are somehow using two different stances/forms (in the same spec, since dual speccing automatically pages all your bars), in which enough skills you use are different that you need to swap buttons in/out. |
| 21:44.10 | Lunessa | Define Risk Shirik |
| 21:44.50 | Amarande | and I'm trying to think of a build in which this is the case |
| 21:45.01 | Shirik | Lunessa: Rises and falls very sharply according to market |
| 21:45.08 | Lunessa | I set my action bars to "page" when I hold down modifier keys so that I can have access to lots of stuff and only need to remember ALT, SHIFT, CTRL + key and don't have to write lots of macros. |
| 21:45.09 | Amarande | *maybe* during Lich King, feral druid tanks, to take advantage of extra kitty DPS from the damage buff on Festergut while not the active tank |
| 21:45.11 | Gnarfoz | rogue stealth. |
| 21:46.03 | Fisker | Shirik |
| 21:46.03 | Amarande | (apparently, druid tanks always got best dps on festergut for exactly that reason) |
| 21:46.05 | Fisker | btw Tuller |
| 21:46.23 | Fisker | i wasn't talking about the opacity of the entire frame, but rather removing the empty bagslot icon |
| 21:46.53 | Lunessa | Shirik: That's still pretty vague. Do you want a public company with lots of volatility or one who's fortunes hinge on random forces/news ? |
| 21:47.21 | A-KO | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_Oj0-splZw < lol |
| 21:47.56 | Shirik | volatlity |
| 21:47.56 | Lunessa | Shirik: a better example of both would be commodities markets. |
| 21:48.08 | Shirik | What I'm really looking for is a company with a high beta value |
| 21:48.15 | Amarande | hmm, do fish pools share spawns with stranglekelp in water that has both? |
| 21:48.16 | Shirik | I'm trying to explain to someone what beta is |
| 21:48.23 | Shirik | and I can't find a good example :) |
| 21:48.25 | Tuller | fisker: that's probably in the general options |
| 21:48.27 | TC-Work | after alpha |
| 21:48.31 | Shirik | bad TC-Work |
| 21:51.23 | *** join/#wowuidev xqo (~xqo@195.131.251.212.customer.cdi.no) |
| 21:51.40 | Shirik | ~ping |
| 21:51.40 | purl | ~pong |
| 21:55.13 | Lunessa | Shirik: The problem with your question then is any big company that is likely to be recognized is likely to have positive beta. |
| 21:55.44 | Shirik | yeah but maybe one will have a high one and one will have one closer to 0 |
| 21:55.57 | Amarande | trying to explain secrets to company success? |
| 21:56.09 | Shirik | no there are no secrets |
| 21:56.09 | Amarande | really, the main secret to company success is a four letter word. |
| 21:56.10 | Lunessa | Pepsico or GM |
| 21:56.12 | Amarande | 'luck' |
| 21:56.13 | Amarande | heh |
| 21:56.16 | Shirik | Step 1: Hire in India |
| 21:56.19 | Shirik | Step 2: Hire in China |
| 21:56.37 | Shirik | Step 3: Become somehow related to oil |
| 21:56.49 | Lunessa | Shirik: Or GE |
| 21:57.28 | Lunessa | Shirik: http://www.google.com/finance?q=KFT |
| 21:57.48 | Lunessa | The related companies chart, and add beta as a collumn |
| 21:59.29 | Shirik | <3 |
| 22:09.17 | *** join/#wowuidev Jamash (~Jamash@99-92-174-69.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net) |
| 22:19.37 | *** join/#wowuidev Aurorus (~Aurorus@mail.enigma.net.au) |
| 22:22.48 | Primer | uhh dominos made flight form have its own bar now |
| 22:22.58 | Primer | as if I had bars to spare... |
| 22:23.22 | Thrae | Primer: Odd, is this the very latest version? I played a couple of days ago with the latest version of Dominos and my Swift Flight Form didn't get its own bar. |
| 22:23.30 | Jamash | the new armory doesn't have character activity rss feeds? |
| 22:23.32 | Primer | there was an update today |
| 22:23.36 | Thrae | Ah |
| 22:23.40 | Thrae | Probably a bug then |
| 22:23.56 | Thrae | Can you change it under the stance/shapeshifting defaults? |
| 22:24.24 | Primer | I want that bar to change on stance though |
| 22:24.41 | Primer | but I want the caster bar for flight form, which is what it was before |
| 22:25.06 | Thrae | Primer: The "default bar" you mean, which is normally Action Bar 1 |
| 22:25.13 | Primer | yes |
| 22:25.18 | Primer | no |
| 22:25.21 | Primer | sec |
| 22:25.22 | Jamash | yes |
| 22:25.30 | Primer | yes, bar 1 is my stance bar |
| 22:25.36 | Thrae | Well when you say you want it to "change on stance", do you mean a specific stance? |
| 22:25.41 | Jamash | for everyone but warriors, bar 1 is the base bar |
| 22:25.51 | Thrae | Yes in Dominos that's how it's configured by default as it uses the default action buttons |
| 22:26.04 | Jamash | warriors are weird and different for no obvious reason |
| 22:26.19 | Primer | bar 1 changes when I shape shift from caster to cat or to bear |
| 22:26.24 | Primer | 3 separate bars |
| 22:26.27 | Primer | now it's 4 |
| 22:26.27 | Thrae | Since Flight Form is a "stance", it's stance 5 or 6 depending on your spec |
| 22:26.48 | Primer | it used to be 3 (caster, cat, bear) |
| 22:26.49 | Thrae | Hmm, maybe the bug thinks you have either a Resto or Balance spec |
| 22:27.03 | Primer | where caster was humanoid, aquatic, of flight |
| 22:27.15 | Primer | I have a resto spec, but I'm not in it |
| 22:27.22 | Primer | the spec I'm in is feral DPS |
| 22:27.24 | Thrae | Right. By default Blizzard doesn't page for Aquatic, Flight, or Travel form. |
| 22:27.51 | Primer | let me test aquatic |
| 22:28.18 | Primer | aquatic remains the same |
| 22:29.47 | Thrae | Yeah it's probably a bug with paging of Tree Form vs Moonkin Form vs Flight Form. You can't have both Tree Form and Moonkin Form so they share the same stance #. But if you do have either one of them, Flight Form changes from stance #5 to #6. |
| 22:30.04 | Primer | right |
| 22:30.13 | Primer | I have neither in this spec |
| 22:30.41 | Primer | it doesn't change in resto spec |
| 22:31.01 | Primer | caster bar remains when I switch to SFF |
| 22:34.40 | Thrae | Primer: OK, try this. Go into actionBar.lua and comment out all lines with "form:5" in them. |
| 22:35.08 | Thrae | Primer: Looking at the old version vs new, the new one uses "form:5" for improved Tree of Life support. |
| 22:35.34 | Thrae | (Old meaning the immediate previous version) |
| 22:36.05 | Thrae | Primer: Alternatively you can change references to "form:5" to "form:6" |
| 22:37.50 | Thrae | Tuller probably needs to change it to properly differentiate between having Flight Form and not having Flight Form, whether or not it checks for form:5 or form:6. |
| 22:40.44 | Thrae | Or maybe something worse is broken as it does check for spell ID 33891 |
| 22:41.53 | Thrae | Maybe that needs to be 5420 instead |
| 22:44.11 | Primer | maybe I'll just wait for Tuller to fix it :) |
| 22:44.13 | *** join/#wowuidev ckknight (~ckknight@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/CurseStaff/CurseForge/ckknight) |
| 22:44.13 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o ckknight] by ChanServ |
| 22:45.06 | Duman | he released an update to dominos just now |
| 22:45.13 | Duman | or, maybe an hour ago |
| 22:45.25 | Thrae | Duman: That's the one we're talking about, right Primer? |
| 22:45.29 | Primer | well, today's update is what broke it |
| 22:45.31 | Duman | and you can always assign bars to forms |
| 22:45.40 | Primer | unless there was more than one release today |
| 22:45.42 | Duman | (and un-assign) |
| 22:45.46 | Jamash | bartender imo |
| 22:45.51 | Duman | http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info9085-Dominos.html#changelog |
| 22:46.07 | Thrae | I don't think you can assign them to Flight, Travel, or Aquatic Form unless you use the custom event thingie |
| 22:46.20 | Primer | yeah, I'm not seeing this option |
| 22:46.46 | Duman | in the bar config, there's not a "druid bars" or something liek that? |
| 22:46.53 | Duman | (in the config for bar 1) |
| 22:47.00 | Primer | changing to druid bar doesn't offer "flight" |
| 22:47.07 | Primer | this is definitely a bug |
| 22:47.10 | Duman | ahh |
| 22:47.20 | Duman | and you're running the 1.22.0 version? |
| 22:47.25 | Thrae | Duman: See in the code, from what I can tell, he checks for [form:5][nobonusbar:4] which also occurs if you're Feral spec and use Flight Form. If you're Resto spec or Balance spec, then Flight Form is [form:6]. |
| 22:47.47 | Primer | no, showing 1.21 here |
| 22:47.54 | Duman | yeah, like I said, he updated an hour ago ;-) |
| 22:47.58 | Duman | go here: |
| 22:47.59 | Duman | http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info9085-Dominos.html#changelog |
| 22:48.05 | Duman | 1.22.0 |
| 22:48.06 | Duman | * Fixed issues caused by my fix for Tree of Life :P |
| 22:48.11 | Thrae | Ah |
| 22:48.11 | Primer | excellent |
| 22:48.28 | Thrae | Well then apparently I don't even have the 1.21 version |
| 22:48.48 | Lunessa | Happy whichever winter holiday you celebrate! See you all randomly over the next two weeks. |
| 22:48.49 | Thrae | So Tuller's code is correct and Primer just didn't have the latest version |
| 22:49.47 | Primer | well, I updated just a tad over an hour ago |
| 22:49.55 | Primer | and now there's another update, so we're all good |
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| 22:56.17 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Iriel] by ChanServ |
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| 23:05.40 | Kraps | Thrae: played a couple of different game today, no crashing yet |
| 23:06.20 | Thrae | Kraps: Have you checked your temps with the earlier driver? |
| 23:06.37 | Kraps | yeah, no change |
| 23:06.53 | Kraps | so i went back to the latest one |
| 23:07.05 | Thrae | Yeah I didn't think there would be a change. |
| 23:08.07 | Kraps | using a rivatuner setting for a long time wont break anything right? |
| 23:08.34 | Fisker | why Tuller |
| 23:08.38 | Fisker | why am i so fucking blind? |
| 23:08.52 | Thrae | Kraps: You mean with the fans running at like 70% or higher? It might break the fans, but they have to be almost broken to begin with if it's only 70% |
| 23:09.02 | Thrae | Kraps: You don't want to run those stock fans at 100% for too long |
| 23:09.40 | Thrae | Kraps: You can follow the guide here -- http://www.guru3d.com/article/rivatuner-20-fan-speed--overclock-guide/3 to set up Fan Profiles for certain temperatures. That way it won't be 100% all the time. |
| 23:09.55 | Kraps | i have them at 70% right now actually |
| 23:10.02 | Kraps | or it rather |
| 23:10.05 | Fisker | hey Kraps |
| 23:10.46 | Kraps | lemme try 60 |
| 23:11.05 | Kraps | hey Fisker |
| 23:12.32 | Kraps | Thrae: still a good idea to get a new one i guess |
| 23:12.37 | Torhal | Fisker: Your nosebleed must have reached your eyes. |
| 23:14.47 | Thrae | Kraps: Yep. Sounds like one of your two did die. And getting a new monitor is a good idea too. |
| 23:15.53 | Amarande | hmm, curse client update, wonder what for |
| 23:16.37 | Fisker | maybe if i were in a dream within a dream Torhal |
| 23:16.54 | Gagorian | Only two dream levels deep? |
| 23:16.58 | Gagorian | That's for amateurs |
| 23:17.17 | nicoli_s | i was so meh about inception |
| 23:17.21 | Kraps | fisker likes getting kicked |
| 23:17.40 | Kraps | nicoli_s: you're doing it wrong |
| 23:17.41 | Fisker | don't you get it nicoli_s ? |
| 23:17.55 | Fisker | it's because he performed successful inception on his wife |
| 23:18.06 | Fisker | and that seemed to be the cliffhanger |
| 23:18.08 | Kraps | Fisker: ... |
| 23:18.09 | Fisker | and i was like, well duh |
| 23:18.15 | Fisker | spoilers Kraps |
| 23:18.46 | Lulia | Does anyone know if the new WoWI layout alerts you to bug reports or feature requests in a similar manner to PMs? (i.e. if you get a new PM a number appears in parethenses next to your name representing how many unread PMs you have) |
| 23:18.49 | Fisker | (they're not really spoilers which is why it's so damn funny) |
| 23:19.18 | Kraps | Fisker: is "i bought the airline" a spoiler? |
| 23:20.40 | Amarande | Fisker: some folks can be really picky about spoilers |
| 23:20.54 | Amarande | the one and only time I was ever moderated on GameFAQs (a no-karma-loss one) was for "spoilers" |
| 23:20.57 | Lulia | jnwhiteh: You there? |
| 23:21.22 | Amarande | and all I'd pretty much said was that a particular trash mob seen in the first game in a two-part series would reappear (also as a trash mob) in the second game and be a hell of a lot more badass there |
| 23:21.50 | Kraps | "Your search "MSI N460GTX Hawk GeForce GTX 460 (Fermi) 1GB 256-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Support Video Card" did not match any products." teehee |
| 23:23.03 | Amarande | Kraps, just get the EVGA 570, it's only about 350$ |
| 23:23.12 | *** join/#wowuidev Wobin (~quassel@124-168-59-253.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 23:24.17 | foxlit | sigh, I need a better castbar |
| 23:27.05 | *** join/#wowuidev Nobgul|Sleep (~none@ool-43557559.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 23:28.05 | Kraps | wow, firefox still has my newegg password, which i havent used since 9/2008 |
| 23:28.13 | *** join/#wowuidev Gintaro_ (~gintaro@harm.osso.nl) |
| 23:29.54 | Kraps | i had bout and returned a 7300GT in 2007 |
| 23:30.01 | Kraps | bought* |
| 23:30.34 | Kraps | i think |
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| 23:32.27 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Esamynn|Away] by ChanServ |
| 23:38.51 | karl_w_w | foxlit: better than quartz? |
| 23:39.44 | foxlit | Better than what I wrote two expansions ago |
| 23:40.20 | *** join/#wowuidev mascondante (~kvirc@pool-72-71-114-44.atl01.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 23:42.41 | *** join/#wowuidev Xyphoid (~xx@202-154-147-182.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz) |
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| 23:50.59 | Fisker | http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa13/Michizane_Tamazaki/WoWScrnShot_122410_001618.jpg <-omfg |
| 23:51.17 | Fisker | that gm should probably just get fired |
| 23:51.57 | Fisker | if you accidentally doomed mankind, it would still pale in comparison to that response |
| 23:52.12 | karl_w_w | could be a private server |
| 23:53.45 | Fisker | i'm gonna go with no |
| 23:54.09 | karl_w_w | omg foxlit wrote ogri'lazy! |
| 23:54.17 | karl_w_w | hugs foxlit |
| 23:57.44 | Thrae | I'm playing on my own private server right now |
| 23:58.01 | Thrae | Minecraft, that is |
| 23:58.05 | Fisker | reported |
| 23:58.17 | Thrae | World of Minecraft! |
| 23:58.31 | Fisker | you are reported Thrae |
| 23:58.35 | foxlit | It's Nordrassil |
| 23:58.36 | Thrae | Kraps: You shouldn't let Firefox keep your account passwords unless you chose the "Master Password" option. |
| 23:58.47 | Thrae | Kraps: Otherwise they're not encrypted. |
| 23:59.57 | Fisker | re-re-re-re-reported |
