IRC log for #wowuidev on 20100911

`00:03.45`	`*** join/#wowuidev theorb (~theorb@91.84.53.6)`
`00:06.01`	`*** join/#wowuidev Borgleader (~borgleade@modemcable253.146-130-66.mc.videotron.ca)`
`00:21.59`	`*** join/#wowuidev boshi23 (~boshi23@c-68-81-3-76.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)`
`00:42.11`	`Arrowmaster`	`hate you Ackis, you just had to come online right as i do something that could have given me an achievement`
`00:44.52`	`*** join/#wowuidev Kandoko1 (~Kandoko@adsl-068-159-119-207.sip.gsp.bellsouth.net)`
`00:44.54`	`*** join/#wowuidev Kandoko (~Kandoko@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Developer/Kandoko)`
`00:46.17`	`Ackis`	`haha`
`00:46.21`	`Ackis`	`I've had that shit happen`
`00:46.34`	`Amarande`	`finally got lockdown tonight`
`00:46.41`	`Amarande`	`damn xevozz never wanted to spawn`
`00:46.56`	`Amarande`	`now to figure out how I'm going to do toxic tolerance :\|`
`00:47.05`	`Amarande`	`apparently even if I equip a goddam horde lance I'm STILL doing 1100+ a hit`
`00:48.26`	`Amarande`	`hmm`
`00:48.31`	`Amarande`	`maybe I should die and get rez sickness or something`
`00:51.54`	`Amarande`	`bloody HELL`
`00:51.59`	`Amarande`	`I do 1100+ UNARMED against these things`
`00:52.04`	`Amarande`	`shakes fist`
`00:52.55`	`Warloco`	`a while ago there was an addon that had packagdes the new cata textures for power auras`
`00:52.59`	`Warloco`	`I cant find it anymore :(`
`00:53.21`	`Amarande`	`guess it's miller ... er ... naked blood elf time`
`00:53.22`	`Warloco`	`anyone remember what it was called? I tried looking for power auras and textures`
`00:55.47`	`*** join/#wowuidev the-golem (~Darrin@c-98-255-201-176.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)`
`00:56.15`	`Warloco`	`>.>`
`01:00.55`	`Warloco`	`bah cant find it`
`01:04.09`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande: I've been waiting forever for that damn water elemental boss to pop again on my main`
`01:08.10`	`*** join/#wowuidev Ycarene (jporterf@24-116-56-41.cpe.cableone.net)`
`01:08.43`	`Amarande`	`Dagmar: wait`
`01:08.46`	`Amarande`	`you WANT to fight Ichoron?`
`01:08.50`	`Amarande`	`were you dropped on your head as a baby?`
`01:09.05`	`Amarande`	`that's probably the single most hated boss in all of LK heroics heh`
`01:14.56`	`*** join/#wowuidev cygni (~slip@cm145-182.resnet.csumb.edu)`
`01:16.55`	`*** join/#wowuidev sylvanaar_atwork (~sylvanaar@unaffiliated/sylvanaar)`
`01:20.15`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande: He's freaking EASY`
`01:20.31`	`Dagmar`	`pew pew until he bursts, then pull lever.`
`01:20.36`	`Dagmar`	`Rinse, repeat x3.`
`01:20.38`	`Dagmar`	`Achy!`
`01:23.19`	`*** join/#wowuidev rikai (~rikai@cpe-184-153-144-194.maine.res.rr.com)`
`01:23.19`	`*** join/#wowuidev rikai (~rikai@unaffiliated/rikai)`
`01:24.11`	`Shirik`	`hi Cide`
`01:28.35`	`*** join/#wowuidev Seerah (~Ryan@adsl-226-119-68.mem.bellsouth.net)`
`01:28.35`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ`
`01:36.12`	`*** join/#wowuidev Dewin (~Daniel@c-71-237-228-188.hsd1.or.comcast.net)`
`01:36.54`	`*** join/#wowuidev Iriel (~Iriel@adsl-71-158-244-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)`
`01:36.54`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+o Iriel] by ChanServ`
`01:52.55`	`*** join/#wowuidev bryno (~bryno@cpe-67-11-189-252.satx.res.rr.com)`
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`02:01.20`	`*** join/#wowuidev SqueeG (~SqueeG@cpe-24-161-96-151.hvc.res.rr.com)`
`02:11.38`	`*** join/#wowuidev airtonix (~airtonix@unaffiliated/airtonix)`
`02:12.14`	`*** join/#wowuidev me345 (~me345@adsl-75-15-182-143.dsl.bkfd14.sbcglobal.net)`
`02:14.05`	`Iriel`	`Is the cataclysm forum login broken or it just me?`
`02:15.08`	`Iriel`	`Nobody appears to understand what SetVertexColor is actually FOR and I can't post why`
`02:15.45`	`Amarande`	`you can't post why?`
`02:15.46`	`Amarande`	`why?`
`02:15.49`	`airtonix`	`WHY`
`02:15.49`	`Amarande`	`too complicated?`
`02:16.16`	`Amarande`	`as mind-busting as calculating 3->3->3->3?`
`02:16.36`	`Iriel`	`I just can't log in, I get an error page with an "OOPS" murloc`
`02:16.56`	`Iriel`	`People are complaining about how it works with solid textures`
`02:17.06`	`Iriel`	`Rather than the real point of it which is how it applies to images`
`02:17.10`	`Amarande`	`"Sorry, your account was eaten by murlocs. We tried to save it, but there were just so many of them and they kept fleeing and getting more ..."`
`02:18.50`	`Iriel`	`This is the far more specific "An error has occurred."`
`02:19.34`	`Amarande`	`Iriel: ugh.`
`02:19.56`	`Amarande`	`that reminds me of that one time I tried to install FreeBSD on a machine which apparently didn't have kernel support for the CD-ROM drive or something`
`02:20.06`	`Amarande`	`and it would keep giving, when trying to do stuff, "Error 5: I/O error"`
`02:20.13`	`Amarande`	`so I'd look up what error 5 was`
`02:20.18`	`Amarande`	`and it would tell me, "I/O error"`
`02:20.29`	`Amarande`	`YES I KNOW IT'S A DAMN I/O ERROR DERP CAN YOU BE MORE SPECIFIC?`
`02:22.21`	`Iriel`	`Oh, I didn't notice the page has a title too.. "Error!"`
`02:22.45`	`Iriel`	`The murloc at least looks mildly apologetic... or is that hungry.. it's hard to tell.`
`02:23.10`	`Iriel`	`The error trying to create a female worgen in the beta is also just as excellent " Failure "`
`02:26.52`	`*** join/#wowuidev SqueeG (~ZomgInter@cpe-24-161-96-151.hvc.res.rr.com)`
`02:26.55`	`*** join/#wowuidev kd3 (~kd3@wikia/kaydeethree)`
`02:27.30`	`Amarande`	`Iriel: they STILL haven't implemented female worgen yet?`
`02:27.39`	`Amarande`	`And the expansion's supposed to be out by year's end by most estimates!`
`02:27.40`	`Iriel`	`There's a delightful purple cube now`
`02:27.51`	`Iriel`	`They were there originally, then vanished`
`02:27.52`	`Amarande`	`or have they decided worgen will only have the one gender at release?`
`02:28.48`	`SqueeG`	`ha`
`02:28.57`	`SqueeG`	`that'd piss off my girlfriend something fierce :p`
`02:30.07`	`Amarande`	`that would just make me roll eyes and be glad I play horde where you don't get cut rate stuff`
`02:30.25`	`SqueeG`	`yes we do :p`
`02:30.27`	`Amarande`	`let's see ... alliance has a crappy totem quest set for draenei and they may not get females in their new cata race`
`02:30.28`	`SqueeG`	`Goblins`
`02:30.29`	`Iriel`	`Amarande: Actually you get cut rate stuff ALL THE TIME, which is much nicer than most alliance racials`
`02:30.30`	`Iriel`	`8-)`
`02:30.32`	`Amarande`	`what cut rate stuff have horde got? :)`
`02:30.47`	`SqueeG`	`^ Goblins`
`02:30.59`	`Amarande`	`well, apart from the achievement system`
`02:31.09`	`Amarande`	`which has all the various fun things like ...`
`02:31.23`	`Amarande`	`horde have to find a way into teldrassil to get explorer, but alliance don't have any similarly protected zone to breach`
`02:31.36`	`SqueeG`	`hm`
`02:31.40`	`SqueeG`	`silvermoon?`
`02:31.45`	`Iriel`	`Amarande: I found SW harder than Tel.`
`02:32.00`	`Amarande`	`also I believe you have to have a 77 on your account to get the horde winter veil achievement, while I think it's ... 70 for alliance?`
`02:32.07`	`Dagmar`	`It's not like anyone is generally watching Teldrassil`
`02:32.17`	`Amarande`	`Iriel: you only have to run far enough into SW for it to register you as zoning in to get credit for that, though`
`02:32.32`	`Amarande`	`and if you're talking about stocks, that's about equal to getting into RFC for alliance`
`02:32.32`	`Iriel`	`Right, you can fly through rutheran and run off to the edge of dal`
`02:32.35`	`Iriel`	`Without death`
`02:33.00`	`Iriel`	`"fly through" referring to "at speed" not "in the air"`
`02:33.20`	`Iriel`	`and dal = darnassus, I was lazy and mistyped 8-)`
`02:33.20`	`Amarande`	`there was also the fact that for a long long time, I don't know if or how they fixed it`
`02:33.39`	`Amarande`	`but the strand of the ancients meta was FLAT OUT IMPOSSIBLE for horde for a very long while`
`02:33.47`	`Amarande`	`not just ridiculously hard ... impossible-by-design`
`02:34.14`	`SqueeG`	`don't forget all the gimping we've had to take in PvP over the years :p`
`02:34.48`	`Amarande`	`remember: one of the achievements towards the strand meta was to win in under X minutes`
`02:35.06`	`Amarande`	`but that was counting from the very start of the battleground`
`02:35.14`	`*** join/#wowuidev BWMerlin (~chatzilla@CPE-60-226-105-114.qld.bigpond.net.au)`
`02:35.17`	`Amarande`	`and since Alliance always attacked first, only they ever had a chance to do it in time`
`02:35.32`	`SqueeG`	`lol`
`02:35.41`	`Amarande`	`I haven't played SotA in forever so I don't know if or how they fixed it for horde`
`02:35.55`	`Amarande`	`then there's of course achievements that just suck for both factions`
`02:36.04`	`Amarande`	`like the stupid win arathi basin by 10 one`
`02:36.15`	`Amarande`	`that one was just bad design`
`02:36.28`	`Amarande`	`let's put it this way ... much of the QQ I read about that one`
`02:36.30`	`SqueeG`	`<PROTECTED>`
`02:36.36`	`Amarande`	`was people who were separated from Battlemaster by JUST THAT ONE ACHIEVEMENT`
`02:36.46`	`Amarande`	`and had LONG AGO gotten exalted with all the battleground factions`
`02:36.59`	`Amarande`	`AND (this being back where they had the marks of honor still) were full on and had mailboxes overflowing with marks of honor`
`02:37.04`	`Amarande`	`and they STILL couldn't get that ONE achievement`
`02:37.08`	`Amarande`	`yeah, that's just bad design :)`
`02:37.35`	`SqueeG`	`=p`
`02:37.45`	`Amarande`	`that's worse than Pink Tails.`
`02:37.51`	`Amarande`	`(you guys have played FF IV, right?)`
`02:38.00`	`SqueeG`	`XIV?`
`02:38.18`	`Amarande`	`IV`
`02:38.21`	`Amarande`	`the old one`
`02:38.26`	`SqueeG`	`long ago :p`
`02:38.39`	`SqueeG`	`I only remember them by storyline now`
`02:38.45`	`Amarande`	`I seem to recall people complaining a lot about Salty, too`
`02:38.55`	`SqueeG`	`salty wasn't too bad...`
`02:39.07`	`Amarande`	`at least until the Kalu'ak fishing derby got introduced, and that just lessens the basic problem with it, not totally alleviates it`
`02:39.07`	`SqueeG`	`just depended a LOT on RNG being nice to you`
`02:39.21`	`Amarande`	`Squee: I'm talking more about the fact that in order to get Salty, you must win a fishing tournament`
`02:39.34`	`Amarande`	`this puts a hard limit of originally 52, now 104 people per year per server who can ever get it`
`02:39.35`	`SqueeG`	`ohhhh`
`02:39.37`	`SqueeG`	`forgot about that`
`02:39.39`	`Amarande`	`and that's assuming people don't win tournaments more than once`
`02:39.40`	`SqueeG`	`yea that's rough`
`02:39.52`	`Amarande`	`there is literally no other achievement in the game, that I'm aware of, that imposes such a limit`
`02:39.57`	`SqueeG`	`takes a group of people working together to actually get one person to win`
`02:40.07`	`Amarande`	`at least, excluding Feats of Strength, and those are just by design`
`02:40.12`	`Legorol`	`Amarande: not true, i won it solo`
`02:40.20`	`Amarande`	`Legorol: well, yes, you can win :)`
`02:40.27`	`Legorol`	`on my second ever STV fishing contest, i nailed it`
`02:40.30`	`Legorol`	`i might have been very lucky`
`02:40.31`	`SqueeG`	`legorol: how long ago?`
`02:40.33`	`Amarande`	`the point people had was that Salty is an achievement that is limited to X people a year no matter how hard they try`
`02:40.35`	`Legorol`	`but i did put a lot of prep into it`
`02:40.39`	`Amarande`	`which runs completely counter to basically the whole achievement system`
`02:40.44`	`Legorol`	`the first tourney was my practice run`
`02:40.52`	`Amarande`	`I'm trying to think of ANY other non-FoS achievement that is so limited`
`02:40.59`	`Legorol`	`FoS?`
`02:41.02`	`Legorol`	`as in Forge of Souls`
`02:41.02`	`Amarande`	`Feat of Strength`
`02:41.04`	`Legorol`	`aha`
`02:41.21`	`Amarande`	`Remember ... everyone has a chance to get almost every other achievement`
`02:41.29`	`Amarande`	`even mind-crushingly hard ones like Light of Dawn`
`02:41.46`	`Amarande`	`but less than a hundred people, generally, will even have the opportunity to get Salty in a year`
`02:42.15`	`Amarande`	`Heya Cairenn :)`
`02:42.26`	`Cairenn`	`hi hi`
`02:42.47`	`Amarande`	`I think the discussions inevitably devolved into flame wars between people who felt that that fixed cap was unreasonable and people who felt that removing that from the meta would dilute the achievement`
`02:42.53`	`Amarande`	`How's you?`
`02:42.57`	`Cairenn`	`meh`
`02:42.58`	`Cairenn`	`you?`
`02:43.02`	`Amarande`	`I'm good :)`
`02:43.37`	`Amarande`	`actually, okay, Pilgrim is the one other title that I think has a fixed cap on how many can get it a year`
`02:43.40`	`Cairenn`	`good to hear`
`02:43.44`	`Amarande`	`(and may even be as tight as Salty, come to think of it)`
`02:43.49`	`Legorol`	`Amarande: oh?`
`02:43.56`	`Legorol`	`remind me what pilgrim is :)`
`02:44.02`	`Amarande`	`Legorol: the Thanksgiving event title`
`02:44.10`	`SqueeG`	`pretty sure i got that`
`02:44.14`	`Legorol`	`i don't remember that one`
`02:44.22`	`SqueeG`	`yea`
`02:44.22`	`Amarande`	`Legorol: because you need Turkinator, and only so many turkeys spawn, even assuming people perfectly place themselves so that none go to waste by people not being able to get to the next one fast enough`
`02:44.41`	`SqueeG`	`eeeeh`
`02:44.42`	`Legorol`	`interesting`
`02:44.47`	`SqueeG`	`it's not that big of an issue`
`02:44.47`	`Legorol`	`but the cap on that must be much, much higher`
`02:44.52`	`Amarande`	`some of the other ones, like Love Fool and Hallowed, require RNG to the point that a large number of people won't get it`
`02:44.55`	`Legorol`	`for starters, there are a lot of turkeys.. and they have dynamic spawn`
`02:45.04`	`Legorol`	`also, you can camp it in middle of the night if you want, with little/no competition`
`02:45.06`	`Amarande`	`but there's no fixed limit`
`02:45.27`	`Legorol`	`dunno, a large portion of my guild loves achis and we all got Pilgrim`
`02:45.30`	`Legorol`	`it didn't seem hard`
`02:45.46`	`Legorol`	`i can see why you say there is a hard cap on it, but it's far far more than Salty`
`02:45.49`	`Amarande`	`I suppose it depends on when you can play, and how many people are in Tirisfal when you do.`
`02:47.41`	`Amarande`	`I still want to know what they're going to do with Rotten Hallow in Cata`
`02:47.59`	`*** join/#wowuidev Bibi (~Bibi@unaffiliated/bibi)`
`02:48.54`	`Amarande`	`since that's the one with the Southshore PvP stuff, and Southshore is apparently no more`
`02:49.03`	`Wobin`	`Shirik: http://www.petapixel.com/2010/09/09/hdr-video-demonstration-made-with-two-canon-5d-mark-iis/`
`02:49.10`	`Wobin`	`The landscape looks normal`
`02:49.15`	`Wobin`	`but the person looks kinda creepy =)`
`02:50.00`	`Amarande`	`I've also wondered sometimes if some of the holiday achievements are not really in the spirit of what Blizzard intended with holidays`
`02:50.12`	`Wobin`	`?`
`02:50.31`	`Amarande`	`Wobin: The general consensus is that the violet proto is there to be a 310% for more casual players who don't play hardcore all the time, just by putting in dedication at the holidays`
`02:50.33`	`Amarande`	`however`
`02:50.38`	`Amarande`	`a HUGE amount of the holiday achievement stuff is PvP`
`02:50.54`	`Amarande`	`and that demands the most hardcore dedication of all in this world where four-digit resil is everything in PvP now`
`02:50.58`	`Wobin`	`yus`
`02:51.12`	`Amarande`	`and you can't PvP gear progress without specifically focusing on the arena, the most numbing crucible of WoW`
`02:51.27`	`Amarande`	`did they ever decide on a way to fix that for Cata, btw?`
`02:51.54`	`Amarande`	`or will we still have people with Battlemaster who still can't get anything more than basic PvP gear because they do battlegrounds and don't meet the "oh oh! sorry! you don't have the RATING you can't have this!" requirement?`
`02:52.12`	`*** join/#wowuidev awweaver (~awweaver@c-98-228-112-245.hsd1.il.comcast.net)`
`02:52.13`	`Wobin`	`http://omp.ohiolink.edu/OMP/Previews?oid=3039522&results=10&fieldname=xml&sort=title&searchstatus=1&hits=1&count=1&searchmark=0&searchstring=library+%22old+main%22&format=list&searchtype=kw&p=1`
`02:52.15`	`Wobin`	`awesome...`
`02:52.20`	`awweaver`	`Hello!`
`02:52.32`	`Amarande`	`yes, I still hold to the idea that rating requirement on PvP gear was a really, really, really, really, really REALLY dumb idea`
`02:52.47`	`awweaver`	`I gave up trying to play the beta...i keep crashing or dcing`
`02:52.52`	`Amarande`	`two particular reasons, one it specifically ties your ability to progress in PvP gear to playing 3's or 5's arena`
`02:53.17`	`Amarande`	`two I can see the desire to reward people for being good, but it also kind of goes against certain logical thought`
`02:53.39`	`Amarande`	`Arena is based on an ELO rating system. As someone who's played chess for a long time before I ever touched WoW, I know Elo pretty well`
`02:54.06`	`Amarande`	`It's no wonder people pay to be carried to 1800 now, because that means they at least have teammates who have better gear`
`02:54.44`	`Amarande`	`I'm trying to imagine how people must feel in the 1700s playing without being carried, not only being down on rating but also facing whole teams who are at least a tier of gear better than them - since at that point you're going to get the 1800 teams who have the 1800 gear`
`02:54.44`	`Shirik`	`Wobin: awesome`
`02:55.06`	`Amarande`	`which basically means, it's practically a reverse handicap system - the better team gets the BETTER resources as well`
`02:55.21`	`Amarande`	`As I've said at times, it's like if chess required you to be an FIDE Master to have the use of your queen. :\|`
`02:55.45`	`Amarande`	`"What's that, you don't have a title or rating? I guess you just get to have your king and pawns ... the other pieces all require you attain a higher rating without the use of them."`
`02:55.48`	`Wobin`	`well we don't want chess players -abusing- their pieces!`
`02:55.56`	`Amarande`	`"Against players who DO get to use them, mind you."`
`02:56.11`	`Amarande`	`In chess, if you give a resource handicap at all, you make the better player have less.`
`02:56.24`	`Wobin`	`well you have to prove you won't abuse them!`
`02:57.04`	`Arrowmaster`	`arent they even looking for a replacement for ELO in chess now?`
`02:57.04`	`Amarande`	`although, I'm getting the impression that arena gear really isn't that important outside of the arena`
`02:57.11`	`Amarande`	`I did pretty well in WG tonight with ... zero resil`
`02:57.33`	`Amarande`	`of course, that's with ICC DPS gear which basically means anyone who I target who isn't quick enough to target me back (or is fighting something or someone else) is going to die. heh`
`02:57.59`	`Amarande`	`Arrowmaster: not that I know of`
`02:58.14`	`Amarande`	`most of the tweaks in chess have been in other ways`
`02:58.27`	`Amarande`	`like considering a soccer-like 3-1-0 system instead of the current 1-1/2-0 system for wins, draws and losses`
`02:58.32`	`Amarande`	`due to the fact that there are too damn many draws, mostly`
`02:58.34`	`Wobin`	`Arrowmaster: I hear the cellist died`
`02:58.38`	`Arrowmaster`	`http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/08/04/2014202/Chess-Ratings-mdash-Move-Over-Elo`
`02:59.05`	`Amarande`	`although Elo has been developing inflation issues`
`02:59.14`	`Arrowmaster`	`Wobin: heard that too, tragic story such a freak accident`
`02:59.25`	`Amarande`	`mostly because chess tournaments at the high levels are basically by design -exactly- the sort of arranged stuff that Blizzard would ban you for win trading if you ever tried in the arena :)`
`03:00.03`	`Amarande`	`Most of the highest level players play basically exclusively in tournaments that are invite only and only feature other top rated players`
`03:00.12`	`Amarande`	`thus, they rarely lose significant amounts of rating`
`03:00.14`	`airtonix`	`toff`
`03:00.27`	`Amarande`	`and as new players achieve high enough ratings to be invited, you add even more rating points into an essentially closed high end rating pool`
`03:00.31`	`Amarande`	`with the result that ratings inflate out of control`
`03:00.41`	`Amarande`	`The most pathetic case of that is on the Internet Chess Club and similar`
`03:00.59`	`Amarande`	`there are people with ratings in the 3000's (in over the board FIDE ratings, the highest ever has been ... mid 2800s I think)`
`03:01.21`	`Amarande`	`they do it by refusing to ever play anyone below a certain rating, so they can only keep gaining and have basically no chance to lose`
`03:01.34`	`Amarande`	`again, you do that in WoW, you get a 72 hour ban and your PvP gear revoked ;)`
`03:02.17`	`airtonix`	`you speak from experience ?`
`03:03.02`	`Amarande`	`airtonix: from forum posts I've read`
`03:03.06`	`Amarande`	`I've actually never set foot in the arena`
`03:03.43`	`Amarande`	`I don't feel like doing it on the DK, and before that my main was a warlock, which is a class you just don't go in the arena with without a much higher standard of gear than most`
`03:04.06`	`*** join/#wowuidev Torhal_ (~callahan@74-141-246-74.dhcp.insightbb.com)`
`03:04.12`	`Amarande`	`I am not exaggerating here, in fact, for the last year or so of BC, it was actually almost a guaranteed loss to bring a warlock into a 5's team`
`03:04.30`	`airtonix`	`speaking from experience of course`
`03:04.42`	`Amarande`	`airtonix: it was a simple rundown of class mechanics`
`03:04.50`	`airtonix`	`wow isn't eve`
`03:04.58`	`Amarande`	`remember, before LK, warlocks didn't have the demon portal or really ANY effective means of escape from meleers in 5's`
`03:05.17`	`Amarande`	`fear? a competent team just lols at you and dispels it`
`03:05.18`	`*** join/#wowuidev A-KO (as@c-76-114-170-138.hsd1.md.comcast.net)`
`03:05.18`	`*** join/#wowuidev A-KO (as@unaffiliated/a-ko)`
`03:05.42`	`Amarande`	`meanwhile, the snares melee use to keep you a sitting duck mostly CAN'T be dispelled, because they're Red debuffs and can basically only be removed by Paladins with bubbles`
`03:06.00`	`SqueeG`	`horror isn't dispellable`
`03:06.38`	`Amarande`	`Squee: you mean death coil?`
`03:06.48`	`Amarande`	`that's what warlocks had for that sort of effect at 70, which is what I'm reminiscing about`
`03:07.02`	`Amarande`	`really short duration, long CD, and only one target`
`03:07.23`	`Amarande`	`the thing was that people had learned that teams with a lock were very easily demolished by focusing their own team around melee and ganging up on the lock`
`03:07.27`	`Amarande`	`"assist train" it was called`
`03:07.50`	`Amarande`	`it was bad enough in 2.2, where basically SL/SL was the only spec that could survive well enough to make locks viable in arena`
`03:07.53`	`SqueeG`	`and then they'd be raped by a team that could handle all melee`
`03:08.11`	`Amarande`	`Squee: melee got a really imbalancing advantage against lighter armored classes in 2.3, though`
`03:08.13`	`Wobin`	`Dagmar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2zpRYk49jk&feature=player_embedded#!`
`03:08.29`	`Amarande`	`remember 2.3 was where Zul'Aman got introduced, with the Executioner enchant and ArPen in general became serious business`
`03:08.52`	`Amarande`	`Meanwhile, Resilience became enhanced in a way that particularly hurt casters, and warlocks in particular (because it was made particularly stronger against DoT damage)`
`03:09.11`	`Wobin`	`also http://feross.net/instant/ is pretty cool, Google Instant for youtube =P`
`03:09.27`	`Amarande`	`and ArPen back then was flat rather than a % like it is now, so basically meant zeroed out armor for any cloth and probably most leather`
`03:09.42`	`SqueeG`	`them's the breaks of patches, amarande`
`03:09.50`	`SqueeG`	`peaks and valleys`
`03:10.02`	`Amarande`	`Warlocks had no real escapes, their offensive potential was thrown into the toilet, defensively they were forced to stand there and take full unmitigated damage from almost all melee hits`
`03:10.09`	`SqueeG`	`talk to a paladin player that's been running since vanilla :p`
`03:10.34`	`Amarande`	`Squee: I think it was also, based on the tales of PvP'ing warlocks, the fact that warlocks had been getting the scrappy end of it almost every patch in BC`
`03:10.41`	`SqueeG`	`yea`
`03:10.43`	`Amarande`	`It wasn't till 3.0 that we really got any love at all in PvP`
`03:11.11`	`SqueeG`	`Warlocks were targetted primarily because of the early days of BC`
`03:11.11`	`Amarande`	`Remember, even in 2.2, it wasn't particularly all roses and lollipops either, arena warlocks had already been reduced to SL/SL as the only survivable spec`
`03:11.22`	`SqueeG`	`and people just won't stop complaining, even after the problem is fixed`
`03:11.39`	`Amarande`	`so yeah, I really never got much into PvP on the warlock. :)`
`03:11.46`	`SqueeG`	`and typical blizzard response is to water something down to the point of being obselete`
`03:11.47`	`Amarande`	`then I took a break from WoW for a while and started a DK`
`03:12.06`	`Amarande`	`at least a DK in PvE gear is still fairly viable in PvP in WG and battlegrounds`
`03:12.11`	`airtonix`	`you and five million others`
`03:12.32`	`SqueeG`	`BC got me to give up my warrior`
`03:12.34`	`airtonix`	`youneekdk`
`03:12.34`	`Amarande`	`ehh, there's actually only 321 DK's on Turalyon that are better geared than me ... and that's counting both factions and tanks as well as DPS`
`03:12.46`	`airtonix`	`now != then`
`03:12.57`	`*** join/#wowuidev vithos (~vith@unaffiliated/vithos)`
`03:12.59`	`Amarande`	`so I'm probably a lot higher in the rankings considering just DPS Horde DKs`
`03:13.19`	`Amarande`	`wowprogress doesn't seem to have a filter for faction though :S`
`03:13.23`	`Wobin`	`Dagmar: also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhRBmIVxD1w&feature=related`
`03:13.58`	`Amarande`	`Squee: what was wrong with warlocks in the earliest days of BC?`
`03:14.03`	`Amarande`	`I don't think I got into WoW till sometime during 2.2`
`03:14.50`	`Arrowmaster`	`warlocks were fucking epic in 2.0.1 when everybody was still level 60 but we all had the BC talents`
`03:15.14`	`Amarande`	`Arrowmaster: and then spent BC in a steady state of ever increasing decline, apparently`
`03:15.24`	`Amarande`	`which I didn't realize, of course, until I decided to main a lock and had leveled her to 70`
`03:15.38`	`Arrowmaster`	`Amarande: yeah they nerfed the fuck out of us with the patch that made BC content go live`
`03:15.59`	`Amarande`	`PvP, there were the constant nerfs to the point where their offense was almost useless against competent people in PvP gear, and they themselves were made of thin crystal`
`03:16.21`	`Amarande`	`and even PvE wasn't roses and lollipops either`
`03:16.30`	`Amarande`	`202 hit rating was hard to come by back then without actually raiding`
`03:16.35`	`Amarande`	`(and of course you were expected to have 202 to raid)`
`03:16.49`	`Amarande`	`but moreover, there were the constant threat issues`
`03:16.53`	`*** join/#wowuidev tekkub (~tekkub@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Dongle/GitHub/Tekkub)`
`03:16.53`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+v tekkub] by ChanServ`
`03:17.04`	`Amarande`	`actually, I don't think they've ever really done much of anything about the constant problems warlocks have with threat`
`03:17.17`	`SqueeG`	`amarande: locks in early BC were beasts :p`
`03:17.17`	`Arrowmaster`	`Amarande: see the first two screens on http://arrowmaster.net/screens/`
`03:18.01`	`Amarande`	`Arrow: ahh.`
`03:18.28`	`Amarande`	`even in LK, from what I've seen, warlocks seem to have an abnormal TPS:DPS ratio compared to basically every other class and build that's not a tank`
`03:18.32`	`SqueeG`	`locks were pretty handy in a raid in BC, amarande`
`03:18.48`	`Amarande`	`(except maybe mages ... I don't mage often enough to really tell :S)`
`03:19.04`	`Amarande`	`in addition, the warlock threat dump only drops HALF the threat, and it can be resisted`
`03:19.27`	`Amarande`	`there was something very wrong there. when I went to Quel'dorei and finally found a guild I could instance with`
`03:19.45`	`Arrowmaster`	`those screen shots are funny, you can tell how epicly geared i was`
`03:19.48`	`Amarande`	`I still remember times in places like Arcatraz where well ... we had a VERY well geared warrior tank, and I STILL was constantly having threatcap issues`
`03:19.51`	`Amarande`	`as a pathetically geared aff lock.`
`03:20.03`	`Arrowmaster`	`a corruption doing 393 damage at level 60`
`03:21.16`	`Amarande`	`(though actually now I seem to recall that in BC, having a well geared tank in 5's was actually a liability)`
`03:21.50`	`Amarande`	`since apparently pre-LK tanking wasn't just critically based on being able to keep the mobs attacking you, it also basically required you to get hit often`
`03:21.53`	`Arrowmaster`	`oh yeah those situations our tanks just took off their pants`
`03:22.16`	`Arrowmaster`	`pants because it was funny`
`03:22.26`	`Amarande`	`I wonder if Cata is going to have issues like that again`
`03:22.58`	`Amarande`	`apparently, they want to make it BC hard again`
`03:23.01`	`SqueeG`	`amarande`
`03:23.17`	`SqueeG`	`blizzard has at least shown that they learn from... most of their mistakes`
`03:23.32`	`SqueeG`	`they've done well with balancing tanking imo`
`03:23.38`	`Amarande`	`Squee: yeah, but there seems to be a lot of talk that LK was too easy and they want to up the difficulty again, so who knows what the mechanics will be like in cata`
`03:24.02`	`Amarande`	`I'm also surprised that DK tanks are viable in ICC, come to think of it. :)`
`03:24.17`	`SqueeG`	`gdi`
`03:24.36`	`SqueeG`	`I like instances not taking 30 hours to finish`
`03:24.39`	`Amarande`	`Just the little factor of DK tanks relying fairly heavily on Dodge, and the fact that ICC pretty much makes Dodge unviable.`
`03:25.12`	`Amarande`	`Squee: ahh yes, I still remember the four hour jaunt through heroic slave pens in BC :)`
`03:25.35`	`SqueeG`	`ugh`
`03:25.44`	`SqueeG`	`i've been running through old instances`
`03:25.47`	`Amarande`	`At least they did away with BoP profession perk items for the most part, and are doing away with most of the profession specialization`
`03:25.52`	`SqueeG`	`and it takes an hour just to go from start to finish`
`03:25.58`	`Arrowmaster`	`try server first heroic arcatraz clear`
`03:26.05`	`Arrowmaster`	`that took fucking forever`
`03:26.05`	`Amarande`	`One big problem with BC was that you basically didn't get to pick your professions if you wanted to be able to do anything at 70`
`03:26.11`	`SqueeG`	`that's not even factoring in someone trying to do it at the proper level`
`03:26.34`	`Amarande`	`You basically had your professions chosen for you by your class and build, and any other choice significantly marred your viability for a long time to come`
`03:26.45`	`Amarande`	`for instance, if you were a cloth caster who didn't take tailoring? (like Alvaerin) you were in trouble`
`03:26.52`	`SqueeG`	`xD`
`03:26.59`	`SqueeG`	`I was a tailor/engineer on my mage :p`
`03:27.11`	`SqueeG`	`THAT was fun in BC`
`03:27.16`	`Amarande`	`I didn't take tailoring for a reason ... I already HAD a tailor (my priest), why would I want to grind the same prof twice on two different characters?`
`03:27.18`	`SqueeG`	`sucked in WotLK`
`03:27.30`	`Amarande`	`Mages apparently were virtually forced to take tailoring/LW`
`03:27.39`	`Arrowmaster`	`why LW?`
`03:27.48`	`Amarande`	`Arrowmaster: back then it was a big deal to bring your drums`
`03:27.55`	`Amarande`	`if you didn't have your drums, you were Letting the Raid Down (tm)`
`03:27.58`	`Arrowmaster`	`oh we had enough drums in the raids`
`03:28.04`	`SqueeG`	`fuck the drums`
`03:28.10`	`SqueeG`	`engi's had goggles OF DOOM`
`03:28.15`	`Amarande`	`but tailoring was a real killer if you didn't take it`
`03:28.16`	`Arrowmaster`	`every rogue was LW`
`03:28.22`	`SqueeG`	`i'll tek mah googluz plx`
`03:28.27`	`Amarande`	`then you practically had to come up with thousands on thousands of gold to afford the spellstrike set`
`03:28.34`	`Arrowmaster`	`tailoring was only killer until you got 25man gear`
`03:28.40`	`Amarande`	`otherwise, you just sucked without your perk set to keep you going through heroics and kara`
`03:28.47`	`tekkub`	`leave me out of this`
`03:28.51`	`Wobin`	`want +200 engi helms`
`03:28.59`	`Wobin`	`s/want/wtb/`
`03:29.05`	`SqueeG`	`=p`
`03:29.17`	`Amarande`	`Never mind that your perk set required either a shit ton of money or a month + to make`
`03:29.54`	`Amarande`	`And that you maxed out tailoring, which itself was a real pain in the ass because to get the last few points for most of BC you absolutely needed BoP patterns from heroics`
`03:30.01`	`SqueeG`	`holy crap`
`03:30.09`	`SqueeG`	`blizzard's forced cooldowns?`
`03:30.15`	`SqueeG`	`bane of crafting existence`
`03:30.22`	`SqueeG`	`ONE PIECE OF CLOTH in 24 hours`
`03:30.26`	`SqueeG`	`-.- seriously`
`03:30.30`	`Amarande`	`Squee: yeah, I'm glad they got rid of that`
`03:30.50`	`Amarande`	`I squee'd when I went to get the titansteel bars done for my 245 chestpiece (still need more crusader orbs, but I have the titansteel now)`
`03:30.55`	`SqueeG`	`didn't even bother trying to max tailoring in WotLK`
`03:31.00`	`Amarande`	`and realized after making the first one on Alvaerin (JC/mining)`
`03:31.03`	`SqueeG`	`that was retardedly expensive`
`03:31.07`	`Amarande`	`that no cooldown showed up in ATSW`
`03:31.12`	`Amarande`	`so I'm like, ok, ATSW has to be bugged, no?`
`03:31.21`	`Amarande`	`so I click Create again, and it didn't say "not ready yet"`
`03:31.23`	`Amarande`	`and I'm like omg`
`03:31.33`	`Amarande`	`since I hadn't played my miner in like forever so I didn't know they took out the CD`
`03:32.04`	`Zhinjio`	`I maxed tailoring at level 65. That wasn't that bad. What remains bad is the JC recipes`
`03:32.18`	`Amarande`	`Zhinjio: yeah, I still have very few of the epic cuts`
`03:32.30`	`Amarande`	`primarily, I bought the ones that I need to gem stuff on my DK as DPS`
`03:33.21`	`Legorol`	`JC recipes are very straightforward.. you are guaranteed to get one per 4 days`
`03:33.23`	`Legorol`	`I think that's awesome`
`03:33.34`	`Legorol`	`plus JC daily takes veyr little time and is good money`
`03:33.41`	`Amarande`	`I have heard that certain tailoring recipes that use the cloth that used to have a CD now have a CD instead though`
`03:33.47`	`Amarande`	`but apart from the glacial bag I'm not sure which ones those are`
`03:33.54`	`Legorol`	`Amarande: Glacial Bag. Used to be no cd, no 7 days`
`03:34.05`	`Legorol`	`there is no other afaik`
`03:34.13`	`Amarande`	`Legorol: wow, they're trying their best to keep the glacial bag rare aren't they :\|`
`03:34.22`	`Amarande`	`the primal mooncloth bag was just expensive, the glacial is actually rare`
`03:34.33`	`Legorol`	`WotLK came out when? october 2008, right?`
`03:34.43`	`Amarande`	`although maybe they're trying to protect a gold sink`
`03:34.51`	`Amarande`	`not to mention the meaningfulness of an achievement`
`03:35.03`	`Amarande`	`if glacials flood the market, there's no more reason to buy the Gigantique`
`03:35.06`	`Legorol`	`so 23 month later, counting with 30 days per month, ify o did JC daily every day, you could get 173 designs approx.`
`03:35.12`	`Legorol`	`so even if you slack you could have all by now`
`03:35.22`	`Amarande`	`that makes a lot less gold leave the economy and also means the My Sack is Gigantique achievement is worthless and just says you wasted your money`
`03:35.28`	`*** join/#wowuidev Torhal- (~callahan@74-141-246-74.dhcp.insightbb.com)`
`03:35.36`	`Amarande`	`(btw: you don't get that achievement if you buy Haris' 24 slotter instead of the 22, do you?)`
`03:35.51`	`Legorol`	`you don't`
`03:36.01`	`Legorol`	`as for glacial: it's far cheaper on my realm than Haris's bags`
`03:36.03`	`*** join/#wowuidev Yssaril_android (~Yssaril_N@maf0736d0.tmodns.net)`
`03:36.05`	`Legorol`	`there's plenty on AH`
`03:36.12`	`Amarande`	`Legorol: yeah, probably why they might want to put a lid on how many can be made :)`
`03:36.19`	`Legorol`	`it's basically going for little more than material cost`
`03:36.21`	`SqueeG`	`zhinjio, between the sheer amount of cloth and chanting supplies needed to level that shit.... i wanted to cry`
`03:36.24`	`Amarande`	`most servers are buckling now economically under a massive surfeit of gold`
`03:36.44`	`Iriel`	`Isn't the ridiculous expense of the Gigantique trying to make a wry point about ridiculously overpriced fashion?`
`03:36.53`	`*** join/#wowuidev DesertDwarf (~DesertDwa@ip68-98-35-80.ph.ph.cox.net)`
`03:36.56`	`Amarande`	`partly from gold farmers, but also largely because so much money comes in from heroic randoms and dailies`
`03:37.01`	`Legorol`	`Amarande: if that was the case, wouldn't taht drive prices up?`
`03:37.06`	`Legorol`	`it should be leading to inflation`
`03:37.07`	`Iriel`	`I always assumed it was 95% parody`
`03:37.13`	`Amarande`	`Iriel: you have to remember, the gigantique used to be the only reasonable way to get a 22 slotter`
`03:37.19`	`Amarande`	`maybe the only 22 slotter, period`
`03:37.26`	`Amarande`	`I forget if any of the BC raids dropped 22's`
`03:37.31`	`Legorol`	`they didn't`
`03:37.43`	`Amarande`	`or, hell, if there was a dropped 22 before Onyxia and ICC5`
`03:37.58`	`Legorol`	`it's a simple pattern: in each expo, there's a "normal" bag size and a raid drop/rare/expensive bag size`
`03:37.58`	`Iriel`	`And most of us lived just fine without one`
`03:38.01`	`Amarande`	`(and fwiw, I still haven't seen the Papa's 22 slotter)`
`03:38.08`	`Legorol`	`vanilla: 16/18. tbc: 18/20. wotlk: 20/22`
`03:38.43`	`Amarande`	`I've literally seen every other piece of loot that can drop in FoS, including at least two battered hilts, and I've never seen Papa's Brand New Bag.`
`03:38.54`	`Amarande`	`Despite the fact that I have done FoS more than ANY other heroic. Literally ANY.`
`03:39.03`	`kd3`	`got the 22-slotter his first run`
`03:39.11`	`Amarande`	`I have the 20 ... never seen the 22 at all.`
`03:39.14`	`Legorol`	`random loot is random. still.`
`03:39.54`	`Amarande`	`though really the main reason I have far more FoS runs than any other heroic was because I was trying to get the NES`
`03:40.16`	`Amarande`	`It was the only reasonably accessible trinket that didn't suck and was a good upgrade off my ilvl 200 Darkmoon Card Death`
`03:40.38`	`Amarande`	`speaking of suck, I won't be getting a 264 badge trinket`
`03:40.45`	`Amarande`	`those are all made of total fail for DW DPS DK :(`
`03:41.12`	`Amarande`	`yay, I can trade an arpen proc for an AP proc ... but also lose a lot of crit and instead get in its place ... haste? wtf? haste doesn't help me!`
`03:41.57`	`Amarande`	`at least ArPen is somewhat useful for Frost, since you're using Blood Strike twice every 20 seconds and Obliterate as often as you can.`
`03:41.59`	`*** join/#wowuidev DesertDwarf (DesertDwar@ip68-98-35-80.ph.ph.cox.net)`
`03:42.02`	`Amarande`	`and Frost loves crit.`
`03:42.10`	`Amarande`	`But haste is basically totally marginal for frost.`
`03:42.48`	`Dagmar`	`<PROTECTED>`
`03:43.27`	`Amarande`	`oh well, that's 60 badges I don't need to spend on a trinket.`
`03:43.47`	`Amarande`	`which is good, since my badges are almost obligated to go to a T10 piece at some point`
`03:44.03`	`Amarande`	`I won a tier token in ICC25 the other night, it would be unfair of me to not use it when I can`
`03:44.09`	`Amarande`	`I'm not sure which piece I should get, though`
`03:46.12`	`Legorol`	`Amarande, haste is actually quite decent for frost`
`03:46.26`	`Legorol`	`if you think about it, the frost tree has built in haste talents, so it can't suck for that reason alone`
`03:46.39`	`*** join/#wowuidev rikai (~rikai@cpe-184-153-144-194.maine.res.rr.com)`
`03:46.39`	`*** join/#wowuidev rikai (~rikai@unaffiliated/rikai)`
`03:47.10`	`Legorol`	`What makes haste decent for frost though is procs like BcB. More haste means more procs.`
`03:47.28`	`Arrowmaster`	`since when?`
`03:47.34`	`Legorol`	`since always`
`03:47.36`	`Arrowmaster`	`what kinda proc is it?`
`03:47.52`	`nebula169`	`bcb? it procs off white hites`
`03:47.55`	`nebula169`	`hits, even`
`03:48.01`	`Amarande`	`Legorol: yeah, but frost likes crit more than haste`
`03:48.03`	`Arrowmaster`	`back in BC haste used to mean more procs then they changed it because of rogues like my friend that loaded up on it and completely broke the game`
`03:48.11`	`Amarande`	`I'm pretty sure the harumi whatever it is is a downgrade from NES`
`03:48.16`	`Dagmar`	`six of one, half dozen of the other`
`03:48.19`	`Dagmar`	`NERF SIX`
`03:48.43`	`nebula169`	`the normalized procs based on weapon speed, but haste can still increase the ppm`
`03:48.53`	`nebula169`	`they* jesus, i can't type tonight`
`03:49.15`	`*** join/#wowuidev eidolarr (~zls@c-24-6-102-75.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)`
`03:50.19`	`Arrowmaster`	`trust me they made it so haste had zero effect on ppm for rogues`
`03:50.55`	`Arrowmaster`	`my friend broke the game with so much haste and hit that combat potency was resulting in him never having less than 100 energy`
`03:51.25`	`nebula169`	`yea, i remember that`
`03:51.29`	`Arrowmaster`	`then one patch later and haste has no effect on ppm`
`03:52.01`	`Legorol`	`ok, i don't know how far ago that was, but frost DKs have always benefitted well from haste`
`03:52.24`	`Legorol`	`as for comparing with crit, atm actually haste is about the same as crit for T10 (i251-ish) gear`
`03:52.34`	`Legorol`	`i'll try to dig up some proper stat weights for you with justfication`
`03:53.03`	`Legorol`	`also, BcB is not ppm, it's % chance`
`03:53.07`	`Iriel`	`Ok, so i'm not crazy by thinking the following line from trade sounds dirty am I?`
`03:53.34`	`Iriel`	`[Trade] want to make a little extra gold? Enjoy RP? Then I have just the thing for you! Pst for more info.`
`03:54.11`	`kd3`	`sounds? that looks pretty explicitly like a call for ERP >.>`
`03:55.08`	`Iriel`	`Exactly, it just needs a well placed suggestive eyebrow wiggle and a couple of knowing winks.`
`04:01.43`	`Legorol`	`Amarande: for example, take a look at http://considerit1.wordpress.com/2010/06/27/3-3-5-frost-bis-lists/`
`04:02.13`	`Legorol`	`on June 28, the OP made a comment that gives stat weights for 277 level gear (full 25-man heroic), which weighs haste at 2.30 and crit at 2.00`
`04:02.38`	`Amarande`	`that's odd.`
`04:02.43`	`Amarande`	`also, you know what's annoying?`
`04:03.03`	`Amarande`	`why is 1H mdps (other than daggers, which DKs can't use) the one weapon type that LK10 can't drop?`
`04:03.09`	`p3lim`	`anyone here good with expressions? (regex)`
`04:03.19`	`Amarande`	`Basically means that I might be forced to switch specs when I get Kingslayer depending on what drops.`
`04:03.20`	`Iriel`	`p3lim: reasonably`
`04:04.09`	`p3lim`	`looking for a way to convert a string "Big Scary Gnoll" into "B.S. Gnoll"`
`04:04.15`	`p3lim`	`able to take anything ofcourse`
`04:05.01`	`p3lim`	`I belive I've seen something like it before`
`04:05.11`	`Legorol`	`Amarande: good question, i don't know`
`04:05.17`	`Legorol`	`maybe they didn't want to overload the loot tables`
`04:05.52`	`Legorol`	`oh and for a quick and dirty way to see whether crit or haste is better for you, if you do use Rawr, check out whether it ranks the str/crit gemming or the str/haste gemming higher in your current gear`
`04:06.07`	`Amarande`	`the heck ...`
`04:06.21`	`Amarande`	`this says that even the tradition of gemming for STR which is basically always a DK backbone breaks down at 277`
`04:06.22`	`Iriel`	`p3lim: in which language? lua?`
`04:06.26`	`p3lim`	`yeah`
`04:06.31`	`Amarande`	`at which point you should get rid of str gems and get haste gems instead?`
`04:06.34`	`Iriel`	`is it always 3 words?`
`04:06.38`	`p3lim`	`no`
`04:06.39`	`nebula169`	`never`
`04:06.41`	`p3lim`	`can be anything`
`04:06.42`	`nebula169`	`lol`
`04:06.59`	`p3lim`	`can also be just one word, in that case it should return the word`
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`04:07.21`	`p3lim`	`lua> print('hello')`
`04:07.22`	`lua_bot`	`p3lim: hello`
`04:07.27`	`p3lim`	`nice, luabot is here`
`04:07.49`	`Legorol`	`Amarande: where did you see that?`
`04:08.06`	`Legorol`	`i can't find anything suggesting haste > str, and it shouldn't be`
`04:08.10`	`p3lim`	`lua> string.gsub('Scary Monster', '%s?(.)%S+%s', '%1. ')`
`04:08.10`	`lua_bot`	`p3lim: S. Monster, 1`
`04:08.28`	`p3lim`	`lua> string.gsub('Scary Huge Night Troll', '%s?(.)%S+%s', '%1. ')`
`04:08.28`	`lua_bot`	`p3lim: S. H. N. Troll, 3`
`04:08.39`	`p3lim`	`Iriel: something like that`
`04:09.39`	`Legorol`	`Amarande: at any rate, if you were thinking about whether you should get Herkumls for frost emblems, i think it's very worth getting`
`04:09.56`	`p3lim`	`brb gonna grab something to eat`
`04:10.06`	`Legorol`	`the haste on it will be worth more than crit from lower tier trinkets, because crit/haste will be close enough in weights`
`04:10.19`	`Legorol`	`and the guaranteed, automatic AP proc bonus is very nice`
`04:20.09`	`*** join/#wowuidev Yssaril_android (~Yssaril_N@maf0736d0.tmodns.net)`
`04:26.23`	`*** join/#wowuidev Yssaril (~kvirc@99-57-32-25.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net)`
`04:32.12`	`Shirik`	`hey everyone`
`04:32.30`	`Shirik`	`Choose one, who do you think is winning the game: Shirik, Nobin, or Travis`
`04:32.50`	`Arrowmaster`	`Nobin`
`04:33.01`	`Shirik`	`thanks!`
`04:33.11`	`Arrowmaster`	`Travis?`
`04:33.32`	`Shirik`	`we had a card that said "Ask someone not playing in this game to choose which player he thinks is winning. Each player not chosen may draw a card."`
`04:33.47`	`Arrowmaster`	`lol`
`04:33.55`	`Arrowmaster`	`thats awesome`
`04:33.58`	`kd3`	`lol`
`04:34.17`	`Arrowmaster`	`does Nobin hate me now?`
`04:34.55`	`*** join/#wowuidev Repo (~supybot@repos.curseforge.net)`
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`04:35.57`	`Arrowmaster`	`Shirik: you should have given me a heads up and i would have said "I think Nobin and Travis are tied"`
`04:37.51`	`*** join/#wowuidev Torhal- (~callahan@74-141-246-74.dhcp.insightbb.com)`
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`04:49.29`	`Wobin`	`how can you get to the Grim Guzzler without the key in BRD?`
`04:49.39`	`Arrowmaster`	`you cant`
`04:49.44`	`Avis_`	`mole machine`
`04:49.53`	`Dagmar`	`Bring a friend with the key, or wait until Brewfest and camp there.`
`04:51.20`	`Iriel`	`Why not just get the key?`
`04:51.34`	`Wobin`	`I'm trying to get to Arglemarch`
`04:51.40`	`Wobin`	`for the bot schematic`
`04:51.59`	`Arrowmaster`	`just get the key`
`04:52.00`	`Wobin`	`haha`
`04:52.01`	`Zhinjio`	`hmm. what schematic?`
`04:52.12`	`Zhinjio`	`now you've got me wondering if I'm missing something`
`04:52.14`	`Wobin`	`I rocketjumped from the ledge above the Forge`
`04:52.20`	`Wobin`	`Repairbot schematic`
`04:52.31`	`Arrowmaster`	`rocketjumped?`
`04:52.35`	`Wobin`	`except I'm now on the wrong side of the locked door`
`04:52.38`	`Zhinjio`	`oh. yeah. I have that, I think`
`04:52.39`	`Arrowmaster`	`wow has rocketjumping now?`
`04:52.53`	`Wobin`	`Nitro Boosts`
`04:53.09`	`Arrowmaster`	`just get the damn key`
`04:53.13`	`Wobin`	`bah, now I'll have to die to get the key =P`
`04:53.18`	`Dagmar`	`Oh lame!`
`04:53.33`	`Wobin`	`such a pain =P`
`04:53.35`	`Dagmar`	`They made it so you can't disengage to get over there, but you can use speed boots?`
`04:56.15`	`Wobin`	`I only just made it, if it's any consolation`
`04:56.29`	`*** part/#wowuidev Seerah (~Ryan@adsl-226-119-68.mem.bellsouth.net)`
`04:56.57`	`Dagmar`	`Meh. My consolation is that I just went straight for Jeeves`
`04:58.52`	`Shirik`	`I love this card`
`04:58.54`	`Wobin`	`eh?`
`04:59.00`	`Wobin`	`well I have the jeeves recipe`
`04:59.00`	`airtonix`	`[I win]`
`04:59.11`	`Wobin`	`it's just that noone is selling the repairbot =)`
`04:59.15`	`Shirik`	`"Each player writes down the name of the player who complains the most. Players reveal their otes. If one player has the most votes, each other player who gives that player a tissue may draw a card."`
`04:59.35`	`airtonix`	`reveals his oats to shirik`
`04:59.45`	`Shirik`	`votes ._.`
`05:00.00`	`airtonix`	`yeah baby`
`05:01.00`	`airtonix`	`btw`
`05:01.06`	`airtonix`	`there is a stray cat in here`
`05:01.45`	`a-stray-cat`	`o.O`
`05:02.34`	`Arrowmaster`	`i think its been in here a while`
`05:03.58`	`Thunder_Child`	`Shirik: what game? soulds like the unglued set tbh`
`05:04.11`	`Shirik`	`wow tcg, in a format known as "grand melee"`
`05:04.18`	`Shirik`	`each turn a special card is turned over`
`05:04.25`	`Shirik`	`which throws the game in a random direction`
`05:06.27`	`Arrowmaster`	`Thunder_Child: i think i have the entire unglued set`
`05:06.38`	`Thunder_Child`	`Arrowmaster: i do`
`05:07.01`	`Thunder_Child`	`i dont however have any of the....what was the second one called...cracked or somesuch`
`05:08.05`	`Arrowmaster`	`i might have both`
`05:08.23`	`Arrowmaster`	`i know ive got the uber powerful card that to play you have to rip it up`
`05:08.42`	`Arrowmaster`	`and the other uber powerful one that is actually two cards`
`05:10.15`	`Thunder_Child`	`BFG`
`05:10.17`	`Thunder_Child`	`and`
`05:10.19`	`Thunder_Child`	`...`
`05:10.28`	`Amarande`	`I ... just used a green gem on a warlock.`
`05:10.29`	`Thunder_Child`	`the lotus`
`05:10.35`	`Arrowmaster`	`yeah`
`05:10.38`	`Amarande`	`Yes, a green gem. After years of insisting that green gems sucked on warlocks.`
`05:10.50`	`Arrowmaster`	`whats green`
`05:11.18`	`Arrowmaster`	`i havent played in years`
`05:11.18`	`Amarande`	`haste/spirit`
`05:11.18`	`Amarande`	`haste is actually regarded pretty highly for aff now, and spirit is good for aff because of fel armor and the lifetap glyph`
`05:11.19`	`Thunder_Child`	`green?`
`05:11.25`	`Amarande`	`but mainly, I needed something with blue in it because my meta gem deactivated on me`
`05:11.47`	`Amarande`	`replaced spectral kris with seethe, lost a qualifying gem`
`05:13.30`	`Shirik`	`oh Arrowmaster`
`05:13.32`	`Amarande`	`hmm`
`05:13.34`	`Shirik`	`that card you have to rip up`
`05:13.37`	`Amarande`	`on aff: black magic or +63 SP?`
`05:13.45`	`Shirik`	`you know that was a parody of a card that was played in a tournament?`
`05:14.08`	`Thunder_Child`	`most of the cards are like that`
`05:14.08`	`Arrowmaster`	`yes the original card got banned`
`05:14.20`	`Shirik`	`yeah well the original card wasn't meant to be ripped up :P`
`05:14.51`	`Thunder_Child`	`none were meant to be ripped`
`05:14.59`	`Thunder_Child`	`but they were meant to be lost or won`
`05:15.21`	`Shirik`	`well the unglued card says to rip it up`
`05:15.32`	`Thunder_Child`	`yes, but thats unglued`
`05:15.47`	`Thunder_Child`	`you are also supposed to do the chicken dance`
`05:15.54`	`Thunder_Child`	`for one of the crads`
`05:15.56`	`Thunder_Child`	`cards*`
`05:16.02`	`Arrowmaster`	`lol forgot about that one till now`
`05:16.07`	`Corrodias`	`hmm? a trading card game that makes you destroy cards after using them? that's the best game ever!`
`05:16.16`	`Amarande`	`black lotus? if you rip that one up you're either very rich or very foolish or both`
`05:16.18`	`Thunder_Child`	`it was a joke set Corrodias`
`05:16.40`	`Amarande`	`unless I'm thinking of the wrong card`
`05:16.43`	`Thunder_Child`	`s/was/is/`
`05:16.51`	`Arrowmaster`	`i assume most people just used custom rules of 'instead of ripping it up lets not let it be played again'`
`05:17.33`	`Thunder_Child`	`most people didnt play the set`
`05:17.39`	`Thunder_Child`	`it was hard to get 4 of each`
`05:19.18`	`Arrowmaster`	`i got a big box of it, i think i have more than 40 of each`
`05:19.26`	`Arrowmaster`	`s/40/4/`
`05:19.42`	`Arrowmaster`	`more than 10 of most`
`05:22.24`	`*** join/#wowuidev jimmybaker (~jimmybake@c-76-22-172-201.hsd1.tn.comcast.net)`
`05:32.58`	`*** join/#wowuidev Natch (~natch@c-35cfe155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)`
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`06:37.55`	`mikma`	`http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l8g1h8lqI61qzpwi0o1_500.jpg`
`06:38.30`	`Dagmar`	`mikma: "An unwitting decoy."`
`06:40.11`	`Corrodias`	`you're gonna like this`
`06:40.15`	`Iriel`	`mikma: 21" 120 Hz LCD Monitor`
`06:40.43`	`*** join/#wowuidev msoul (msoul@meridian.ipv6.sosdg.org)`
`06:41.20`	`mikma`	`iriel: Samsung Syncmaster 226bw :P`
`06:41.39`	`Corrodias`	`http://corrodias.no-ip.org:2000/object.png`
`06:41.51`	`Corrodias`	`i think i'm gonna win`
`06:42.18`	`Iriel`	`mikma: the one on the left is a 2233RZ, in the middle (wit the picture on) is a 245 BW`
`06:42.52`	`Iriel`	`Corrodias: Let's Play: Dwarf Fortress still makes me laugh when I read it`
`06:43.20`	`mikma`	`http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1310230/Facebook-users-narcissistic-insecure-low-self-esteem.html`
`06:43.43`	`mikma`	`iriel: i mean that i have Samsung Syncmaster 226bw on the left ^^ and Samsung Syncmaster 226bw on the right :)`
`06:43.48`	`Corrodias`	`aye`
`06:44.07`	`msoul`	`mikma: I've got friends stopped calling me instead they send me messages on facebook. and I rarely log in`
`06:44.11`	`Iriel`	`For some reason I have no 2 of the same monitor`
`06:44.15`	`msoul`	`I still don't get it`
`06:44.18`	`msoul`	`nor want to`
`06:44.43`	`mikma`	`msoul: i don't call with my buddies, only when we are supposed to meet. for other contact there's ircnet`
`06:44.54`	`msoul`	`hehe`
`06:45.12`	`mikma`	`hah, iOS 4.1 jailbreak'd`
`06:45.20`	`mikma`	`on the next day from release`
`06:45.24`	`msoul`	`pulled myself from most of my friends. don't know but started to feel they're just annoying :/`
`06:45.47`	`msoul`	`hangs with 2-4 now and we don't meet that often anymore`
`06:46.04`	`msoul`	`Become a dad like a month ago :)`
`06:46.11`	`mikma`	`my old friends don't live next to me`
`06:46.20`	`mikma`	`msoul: same will happen to me at 17.9 ;)`
`06:46.33`	`mikma`	`why i know the exact date? c-section has been placed already`
`06:46.34`	`msoul`	`oh congratulations mate`
`06:46.42`	`mikma`	`msoul: congrats to you too!`
`06:46.46`	`msoul`	`you know the sex already?`
`06:46.47`	`msoul`	`thanks`
`06:47.28`	`the-golem_`	`c-section? ouch.`
`06:47.42`	`mikma`	`nope, they have been trying to find out in the ultra's but the baby's been hiding the spots`
`06:47.52`	`mikma`	`3-4 ultra's and no result :D`
`06:48.00`	`mikma`	`well, i knwo in 6 days for sure ;D`
`06:48.02`	`Dagmar`	`Guess you don't have to worry about a future career in the porn industry`
`06:48.08`	`msoul`	`hehe`
`06:48.09`	`Dagmar`	`THat young and already bashful.`
`06:48.16`	`mikma`	`that's what everyone has said ^^`
`06:48.19`	`Dagmar`	`ROFL`
`06:48.33`	`Dagmar`	`Dude, you have some messed up friends if more than just me made the crack about the porn job.`
`06:48.34`	`mikma`	`"now wish that the baby is a girl and she'll have a great future"`
`06:48.35`	`msoul`	`just be there in my head I imagined it to be as scary as heck... it isn't`
`06:48.47`	`mikma`	`dagmar: thanks, i have messed up friends ;)`
`06:48.51`	`Dagmar`	`hahaha`
`06:48.55`	`mikma`	`but i'm the worst from them, trust me`
`06:49.09`	`msoul`	`all that will change soon ;)`
`06:55.47`	`*** join/#wowuidev stolenlegacy (~stolenleg@d86-33-159-51.cust.tele2.at)`
`07:00.32`	`kd3`	`welp, I've hit a quest where I'm not going to be able to complete it in my gear on my own`
`07:00.32`	`kd3`	`sigh`
`07:00.49`	`the-golem`	`mikma: i have that same monitor, iirc`
`07:03.33`	`*** join/#wowuidev brykrys (~chatzilla@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Dev/Brykrys)`
`07:03.49`	`*** join/#wowuidev Srosh (~Srosh@d057234.adsl.hansenet.de)`
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`07:31.38`	`tem`	`wheeee`
`07:32.26`	`bluspacecow`	`jumps on`
`07:32.28`	`bluspacecow`	`weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee`
`07:37.10`	`*** join/#wowuidev eidolarr (~zls@c-24-6-102-75.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)`
`07:39.29`	`*** join/#wowuidev kd3 (~kd3@wikia/kaydeethree)`
`07:44.58`	`bluspacecow`	`http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=26726014363&sid=1`
`07:45.04`	`bluspacecow`	`weird crash report is weird`
`07:45.19`	`bluspacecow`	`255 code line thingys in one thread ?`
`07:50.30`	`mitchnull`	`sounds like some recursive call gone wron`
`07:50.31`	`mitchnull`	`g`
`07:53.23`	`*** join/#wowuidev olafski (~egrimm@dream.student.utwente.nl)`
`07:56.47`	`*** part/#wowuidev mitchnull (~mitchnull@catv3EC944A1.pool.t-online.hu)`
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`07:58.32`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+o Shadowed] by ChanServ`
`07:58.37`	`*** join/#wowuidev ajmitch_ (~ajmitch@ubuntu/member/ajmitch)`
`07:58.46`	`Zhinjio`	`ooooo, got the broken hilt`
`08:00.21`	`Shirik`	`soooooooooooooooooooooooooo`
`08:00.27`	`Shirik`	`$200 card = mine`
`08:02.02`	`*** join/#wowuidev Repo (~supybot@repos.curseforge.net)`
`08:03.36`	`*** join/#wowuidev Caleb\| (~caleb@dsl51B78AA1.pool.t-online.hu)`
`08:07.53`	`amro`	`Shirik: you can keep the card, I'll take the $200`
`08:08.03`	`Shirik`	`no`
`08:08.06`	`Shirik`	`I'll be selling it`
`08:08.15`	`Shirik`	`someone else can have the damn chicken`
`08:08.21`	`amro`	`exactly, and handing the proceeds directly to me`
`08:08.22`	`Shirik`	`I have a blizzcon mount`
`08:10.30`	`*** join/#wowuidev Repo (~supybot@repos.curseforge.net)`
`08:15.13`	`Adys`	`Shirik: where did you get it from?`
`08:15.25`	`Shirik`	`fields of honor box that I bought for like $40`
`08:15.33`	`Adys`	`huh`
`08:16.45`	`Wobin`	`http://popwatch.ew.com/2010/09/02/gagasaurus-rex-lady-gaga-in-dino-form/`
`08:17.07`	`*** join/#wowuidev Guardix (~Martin@0x5da165ee.hinqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk)`
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`08:22.17`	`Fisker`	`Shirik`
`08:22.18`	`Fisker`	`me`
`08:22.20`	`*** join/#wowuidev Dashkal (~dashkal@WoWUIDev/Nexus/dashkal)`
`08:22.22`	`Shirik`	`no`
`08:22.24`	`Shirik`	`gtfo`
`08:26.58`	`airtonix`	`muwaha`
`08:27.14`	`Fisker`	`this is awesome`
`08:27.25`	`airtonix`	`yeah you finally escaped from my wet paper bag`
`08:27.34`	`airtonix`	`grats`
`08:27.34`	`Fisker`	`I got an infraction for "discussing piracy" on the 2k Forums`
`08:27.54`	`Shirik`	`ok night`
`08:27.55`	`Fisker`	`so i told the admin that i didn't discuss piracy and i didn't swear(which apparently the moderator had claimed)`
`08:27.56`	`*** join/#wowuidev Sliker (~ponies@5e0b6e71.bb.sky.com)`
`08:28.16`	`Fisker`	`Then she pretty much concedes that and tells me we won't have any problems in the future if i adhere to the rules`
`08:28.20`	`Fisker`	`wut?`
`08:28.26`	`airtonix`	`lol`
`08:28.37`	`Fisker`	`So i didn't do anything wrong, you won't be lifting the infraction, and then you tell me "we'll be fine" if i adhere to the rules?`
`08:28.38`	`airtonix`	`"oh i always follow the rules"`
`08:28.43`	`Fisker`	`how does that logic work?`
`08:29.09`	`airtonix`	`Fascist Dictator Logic (tm)`
`08:29.23`	`Fisker`	`heh`
`08:29.45`	`Fisker`	`i also found a bit unprofessional (though kinda funny) that a moderator edited my post and called me a teapot`
`08:29.55`	`Fisker`	`but apparently "teapots are rad"`
`08:30.03`	`airtonix`	`i wonder how many dictators actually went to and succeeded at university on a high level`
`08:31.31`	`amro`	`you posted on the 2k forums`
`08:31.35`	`amro`	`how does that logic work?`
`08:31.39`	`bluspacecow`	`2k forums ?`
`08:32.04`	`airtonix`	`end of world conspiracy nutjobs`
`08:32.27`	`zenzelezz`	`better than the beginning of the world conspiracy nutjobs`
`08:32.48`	`airtonix`	`i prefer the positive aspect`
`08:33.55`	`bluspacecow`	`but y2k was 10 years ago noobs`
`08:34.44`	`Fisker`	`basically i pointed out it was silly that a moderator made a false claim and then basically used the "don't argue with moderators"-rule to make the claim non-falsifible`
`08:35.04`	`Fisker`	`:o`
`08:35.30`	`jnwhiteh`	`yawns`
`08:35.37`	`Fisker`	`jnwhiteh is up!`
`08:35.45`	`Fisker`	`or incredibly bored by my story`
`08:35.46`	`jnwhiteh`	`indeed I am`
`08:35.50`	`bluspacecow`	`"The old PvP battleground titles have been brought back"`
`08:35.53`	`Fisker`	`i will kill you`
`08:44.57`	`nevcairiel`	`for rated BGs, old news :p`
`08:45.01`	`*** join/#wowuidev Schnaks (~Schnaks@p4FC4C421.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`08:45.04`	`zenzelezz`	`so the tourist industry in Norway wants to advertise us in other countries with pictures like http://www.vg.no/uploaded/image/bilderigg/2010/09/10/1284121691977_521.jpg`
`08:45.14`	`zenzelezz`	`all I could think of was "... Shadowmoon?"`
`08:45.42`	`nevcairiel`	`must be appealing to all the illidari`
`09:05.42`	`mikma`	`cairenn: http://pics.kuvaton.com/bshit/procatpropaganda.jpg`
`09:06.08`	`Cairenn`	`:)`
`09:07.43`	`*** join/#wowuidev sioraiocht (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht)`
`09:14.26`	`*** join/#wowuidev foxlit (~foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk)`
`09:14.29`	`zenzelezz`	`so this is how Shirik cooks... http://kuvaton.com/browse/15601/usb_cooking.jpeg`
`09:16.40`	`*** join/#wowuidev Hjalte (~chatzilla@cpe.ge-0-2-0-835.arcnqu2.customer.tele.dk)`
`09:18.29`	`mikma`	`http://pics.kuvaton.com/bshit/homosexuality_is_a_sin.jpg`
`09:18.45`	`*** join/#wowuidev robokitty (~roboe@50A2E6C0.flatrate.dk)`
`09:19.23`	`Fisker`	`zenzelezz`
`09:20.35`	`*** join/#wowuidev foxlit (~foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk)`
`09:20.35`	`Fisker`	`bawww mikma`
`09:24.01`	`mikma`	`fisker, i am dissappoint`
`09:24.13`	`mikma`	`see? i can quote internet too`
`09:25.01`	`Fisker`	`:O?`
`09:26.49`	`*** join/#wowuidev NightHawkTheSane (~jonathan@li83-182.members.linode.com)`
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`09:27.32`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+o Shadowed] by ChanServ`
`09:28.38`	`Fisker`	`hey Shadowed`
`09:28.42`	`Fisker`	`waves`
`09:28.47`	`*** join/#wowuidev ajmitch_ (~ajmitch@ubuntu/member/ajmitch)`
`09:29.47`	`zenzelezz`	`mikma: that picture is win`
`09:31.28`	`*** join/#wowuidev augustl (~augustl@6.79-160-9.customer.lyse.net)`
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`09:44.52`	`bleeter`	`tem: ohai :P`
`09:45.04`	`bleeter`	`bah sorry tem, bad complete`
`09:45.07`	`bleeter`	`tekkub: :P`
`09:55.48`	`*** join/#wowuidev robokitty (~roboe@50A2E6C0.flatrate.dk)`
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`10:00.54`	*** join/#wowuidev Funkeh`` (~funk@82.111.117.2)
`10:02.46`	`*** join/#wowuidev bluspacecow (~bluspacec@60-234-165-167.bitstream.orcon.net.nz)`
`10:17.25`	`*** join/#wowuidev Torhal- (~callahan@74-141-246-74.dhcp.insightbb.com)`
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`10:27.00`	`augustl`	`protoss really hates EMPs in the gold league`
`10:27.58`	`*** join/#wowuidev Thaoky (Thaoky@22.51-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be)`
`10:47.19`	`*** join/#wowuidev bediko (~chatzilla@93.215.147.119)`
`10:57.55`	`amro`	`augustl: do they not hate EMP elsewhere?`
`10:58.02`	`Fisker`	`amro`
`10:58.03`	`Fisker`	`BITCHES`
`10:58.12`	`amro`	`you received them already?`
`10:58.16`	`amro`	`I thought they weren't due for another week`
`10:58.23`	*** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (~funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh)
`10:59.12`	`*** join/#wowuidev Torhal- (~callahan@74-141-246-74.dhcp.insightbb.com)`
`11:02.25`	`Fisker`	`oh`
`11:06.51`	`*** join/#wowuidev solocommand (~josh@adsl-68-72-37-189.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net)`
`11:13.56`	`*** join/#wowuidev Kalroth (kalroth@d40aa2c2.rev.stofanet.dk)`
`11:15.43`	`*** join/#wowuidev robokitty (~roboe@50A2E6C0.flatrate.dk)`
`11:17.47`	`augustl`	`amro: well in the higher leagues they know how to counter it I guess :)`
`11:17.50`	`*** join/#wowuidev Pneumatus (~WiN@unaffiliated/pneumatus)`
`11:18.08`	`amro`	`augustl: they still hate it :P`
`11:18.09`	`augustl`	`but in gold league they won't feedback the ghosts with templars for example`
`11:18.19`	`augustl`	`hehe cool :)`
`11:18.26`	`amro`	`it's hard too`
`11:18.34`	`amro`	`templars are slower than Fisker's mom`
`11:19.30`	`augustl`	`terrans are kind of imba in that regard`
`11:19.38`	`augustl`	`dts! Nuke the raven! Pew! Scan! Dead toss!`
`11:20.01`	`amro`	`there really isn't enough whining about scan on the forum considering how stupidly powerful it is`
`11:20.16`	`amro`	`screw thors, screw MMM`
`11:20.18`	`amro`	`scan is what's broken`
`11:21.08`	`augustl`	`will collossi pwn ghosts?`
`11:21.17`	`amro`	`not in time`
`11:21.33`	`amro`	`colossi are generally bad that late in the game vs terran`
`11:21.54`	`amro`	`better than immortals at least`
`11:22.36`	`amro`	`if I see ghosts, I attack before he does`
`11:22.41`	`augustl`	`it's fun to make ghosts after the toss scouts my tanks and makes immortals..`
`11:22.53`	`amro`	`teching them is stupidly expensive so you have time to push`
`11:23.03`	`amro`	`immortals are bad`
`11:23.11`	`amro`	`in almost every scenario`
`11:23.26`	`amro`	`if they had a better shield to hp ratio, maybe`
`11:23.32`	`amro`	`but at 100 shield, they're crap`
`11:23.49`	`amro`	`I'd rather spend the mins on a colossus`
`11:25.07`	`amro`	`with the tank changes, I think terran are fine as long as something is done about scan`
`11:26.01`	`augustl`	`I wonder what can be done.. toss have observers, zerg have overseers`
`11:26.25`	`amro`	`and terran have ravens`
`11:26.36`	`amro`	`there's no reason for them to also have scan`
`11:26.43`	`amro`	`granted, ravens are expensive`
`11:26.59`	`Fisker`	`Â`
`11:27.01`	`amro`	`but hey, terran does not even rely on scouting`
`11:27.09`	`amro`	`zerg does, and has the worst scouting :/`
`11:28.14`	`Fisker`	`you`
`11:29.58`	*** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (~funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh)
`11:31.18`	`augustl`	`beta servers down?`
`11:31.59`	`Fisker`	`augustl a bitch?`
`11:32.19`	`augustl`	`does not compute`
`11:33.34`	`*** join/#wowuidev foxlit (~foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk)`
`11:34.29`	`*** join/#wowuidev Kalroth (kalroth@d40aa2c2.rev.stofanet.dk)`
`11:35.18`	`*** join/#wowuidev solocommand (~josh@adsl-68-72-37-189.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net)`
`11:46.47`	`*** join/#wowuidev A-KO (as@c-76-114-170-138.hsd1.md.comcast.net)`
`11:46.48`	`*** join/#wowuidev A-KO (as@unaffiliated/a-ko)`
`11:51.55`	`augustl`	`yay beta servers are up`
`11:53.30`	`foxlit`	`They were down?`
`11:54.06`	`augustl`	`been down last 4 hours`
`11:54.49`	`nevcairiel`	`not mine`
`11:56.06`	`augustl`	`is there a guild for me on the US PvP serve? <3`
`11:56.48`	`augustl`	`+r`
`11:58.37`	`augustl`	`I feel unwanted`
`12:01.26`	`Fisker`	`my point exactly nev`
`12:01.55`	`foxlit`	`Wake me up when they push the next build and/or uldum itemization`
`12:02.12`	`*** join/#wowuidev solocommand (~josh@adsl-68-72-37-189.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net)`
`12:02.37`	`Fisker`	`http://ekstrabladet.dk/flash/udlandkendte/article1408528.ece <-nice`
`12:02.52`	`Fisker`	`luckiest bodyguard in the world award`
`12:03.04`	`augustl`	`must have been terrible`
`12:03.16`	`Fisker`	`yeah :D`
`12:03.22`	`Fisker`	`poor guy`
`12:03.44`	`augustl`	`we must consider the possibility that he's gay though`
`12:03.55`	`Fisker`	`he has a wife and kids`
`12:04.04`	`augustl`	`AND? badampish`
`12:04.28`	`A-KO`	`poor, poor guy`
`12:04.32`	`A-KO`	`such a predicament`
`12:05.14`	`A-KO`	`that's one of those things you just do and never tell anyone`
`12:06.24`	`augustl`	`yeah`
`12:06.26`	`augustl`	`just unzip, dude!`
`12:09.09`	`A-KO`	`hmm`
`12:09.17`	`A-KO`	`can't hear anything out of my speakers...reboot required I guess....`
`12:10.18`	`*** join/#wowuidev nuoHep (~nuohep@89.222.156.36)`
`12:10.53`	`*** join/#wowuidev RJohn (~Tanner@h123.65.149.24.cable.rdwd.jetbroadband.com)`
`12:13.13`	`*** join/#wowuidev solocommand (~josh@adsl-68-72-37-189.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net)`
`12:14.52`	`*** join/#wowuidev A-KO (as@unaffiliated/a-ko)`
`12:28.06`	`mikma`	`haste: http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/artikkel.php?artid=10045103`
`12:28.14`	`*** join/#wowuidev solocommand (~josh@adsl-68-72-37-189.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net)`
`12:29.37`	`*** join/#wowuidev Ildhesten (~Ildhesten@83.91.89.186)`
`12:39.29`	`*** join/#wowuidev Silker (~ponies@5e0b6be1.bb.sky.com)`
`12:46.04`	`haste`	`mikma: it's hitting international news as well :p ?`
`12:46.17`	`foxlit`	`"Prevent this page from opening additional dialogues" << Way to go, Chrome`
`12:47.28`	`Fisker`	`ages old`
`12:47.35`	`Fisker`	`and danish news haste !`
`12:47.41`	`Fisker`	`btw haste`
`12:47.47`	`Fisker`	`did you read about that poor guy?`
`12:53.19`	`*** join/#wowuidev augustl (~augustl@6.79-160-9.customer.lyse.net)`
`12:56.08`	`*** join/#wowuidev yoshimo (~Kassandra@p549985F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)`
`13:00.55`	`*** join/#wowuidev Kassandra (~Kassandra@p549985F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)`
`13:05.45`	`haste`	`Fisker: wat`
`13:06.46`	`Fisker`	`http://ekstrabladet.dk/flash/udlandkendte/article1408528.ece`
`13:07.04`	`Fisker`	`http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLy5xIjA6Z8`
`13:09.04`	`*** join/#wowuidev Tinyboom (~nahh@c91FD653E.dhcp.bluecom.no)`
`13:10.35`	`*** join/#wowuidev solocommand (~josh@99.172.134.196)`
`13:12.26`	`*** join/#wowuidev augustl (~augustl@6.79-160-9.customer.lyse.net)`
`13:16.39`	`Fisker`	`get it haste ?`
`13:17.46`	`A-KO`	`http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lLqqR2pcws`
`13:19.22`	`zenzelezz`	`http://averagecats.com/1059`
`13:19.59`	`*** join/#wowuidev solocommand (~josh@adsl-68-72-38-255.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net)`
`13:24.49`	`Xinhuan`	`anyone got a problem with the beta launcher where the last 524kb of data doesn't want to complete?`
`13:25.24`	`nevcairiel`	`you seem to be having alot of funny issues with it`
`13:25.36`	`Xinhuan`	`i don't know why that is so`
`13:25.51`	`Xinhuan`	`so i'm asking if anyone else has a similar issue`
`13:26.32`	`*** join/#wowuidev solocommand (~josh@adsl-68-72-38-255.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net)`
`13:26.59`	`*** join/#wowuidev Lothaer (~jamiecook@115-166-46-60.ip.adam.com.au)`
`13:26.59`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+v Lothaer] by ChanServ`
`13:27.00`	`*** join/#wowuidev Cide (~Cide@c213-100-51-33.swipnet.se)`
`13:27.00`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+v Cide] by ChanServ`
`13:27.42`	`Lothaer`	`hey guys and gals`
`13:27.48`	`zenzelezz`	`ohai`
`13:28.06`	`Lothaer`	`whats new?`
`13:29.40`	`haste`	`Fisker: you will die, you know this, but it takes this wave to make you bow your head, your heart, your whole life`
`13:30.28`	`Kalroth`	`bawww`
`13:30.31`	`Kalroth`	`hugs Fisker`
`13:30.35`	`Kalroth`	`dont listen to the evil haste`
`13:30.39`	`Kalroth`	`glares at haste`
`13:30.45`	`foxlit`	`Xinhuan: enabled p2p?`
`13:30.51`	`Xinhuan`	`nope`
`13:30.57`	`Xinhuan`	`well by 524 kb`
`13:31.00`	`Xinhuan`	`i mean that teh downloader`
`13:31.04`	`Xinhuan`	`constantly downloads at 1mb/sec`
`13:31.12`	`Xinhuan`	`but none of teh data being downloaded is written to disk`
`13:31.20`	`Xinhuan`	`i probably downloaded like 1 gb that way`
`13:31.37`	`Xinhuan`	`if i enable p2p, the whole launcher crashes when it loads`
`13:31.49`	`Xinhuan`	`with some memory access error`
`13:32.14`	`nevcairiel`	`your system must be seriously screwed up`
`13:32.23`	`foxlit`	`<PROTECTED>`
`13:32.55`	`Lothaer`	`when trying to hook 2 spells to a event i have tried this http://wowuidev.pastey.net/140542 obviously it dosnt work anyone able to correct it?`
`13:33.06`	`foxlit`	`I wonder if there's some CSS optimizer somewhere that'd parse that and eliminate redundancies`
`13:33.20`	`nevcairiel`	`there are, actually`
`13:33.33`	`zenzelezz`	`check with the department of redundancy department`
`13:33.40`	`nevcairiel`	`i forgot the name, though. They talked about it on some css workshop`
`13:33.50`	`haste`	`Lothaer: the first GetSpellInfo will always return true`
`13:33.58`	`foxlit`	`zenzelezz: I did, but they just sent me to the department of the department of the redundancy department.`
`13:34.05`	`zenzelezz`	`foxlit: doh!`
`13:34.26`	`Lothaer`	`thanks haste how do i get the second one to work?`
`13:34.47`	`Lothaer`	`ive also tried to add a second GetSpellInfo line under the first and that also dosnt work`
`13:35.09`	`haste`	`Lothaer: if(arg1 == 'player' and (arg2:match(GetSpellInfo(49576)) or arg2:match(GetSpellInfo(73325))) then`
`13:35.27`	`haste`	`Lothaer: not a great solution if you want to add more spells however, then I'd recommend you to use a table`
`13:35.27`	`Lothaer`	`thank you haste`
`13:35.35`	`Lothaer`	`i only need 2`
`13:35.51`	`haste`	`caching the return of those two function calls would also be beneficial`
`13:35.54`	`Lothaer`	`it only going to hook Death Grip and Leap of Faith`
`13:35.59`	`haste`	`since it always will be the same`
`13:36.09`	`haste`	`also, you aren't hooking anything :P`
`13:36.41`	`*** join/#wowuidev smcn (~smcn@c-174-52-104-121.hsd1.ut.comcast.net)`
`13:36.41`	`Lothaer`	`couldnt find the correct words... i suppose "fire" would have bene better`
`13:42.42`	`Lothaer`	`haste: http://wowuidev.pastey.net/140545`
`13:42.56`	`*** join/#wowuidev solocommand (~josh@adsl-68-72-38-255.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net)`
`13:44.32`	`Fisker`	`http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=pi%25+of+1337`
`13:51.24`	`haste`	`Lothaer: read the message, it says exactly what's wrong`
`13:52.05`	`Fisker`	`why don't you like me haste ?`
`14:00.40`	`*** join/#wowuidev Lothaer (~jamiecook@115-166-46-60.ip.adam.com.au)`
`14:00.40`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+v Lothaer] by ChanServ`
`14:00.48`	`Lothaer`	`back sorry router issue`
`14:04.23`	`Fisker`	`maybe you shouldn't be using a router then?`
`14:04.50`	`Fisker`	`takes out a gun`
`14:04.52`	`*** join/#wowuidev solocommand (~josh@adsl-68-72-38-255.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net)`
`14:05.18`	`*** join/#wowuidev bediko_ (~chatzilla@p4FE352E8.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`14:07.41`	`Xinhuan`	`wow i logged in the beta`
`14:07.57`	`Xinhuan`	`and saw that all my level 1s have the option to change the race at the login screen =.=`
`14:08.07`	`Xinhuan`	`well ok not all`
`14:08.34`	`Xinhuan`	`one of the level 1s don't have the option`
`14:10.15`	`Xinhuan`	`i wonder whats different about it`
`14:10.59`	`zenzelezz`	`"You can make use of these buttons as often as you like, but the services for which youre selected are randomly chosen for you and will update every hour. So, say if you dont want to change your race but would like to customize your appearance on a specific character, you will need to wait for the right button to appear."`
`14:11.07`	`zenzelezz`	`http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/26725725465/random-character-services-buttons/`
`14:11.42`	`Xinhuan`	`lol`
`14:13.47`	`Xinhuan`	`i see`
`14:20.01`	`Cide`	`working as motherfucking intended!`
`14:20.32`	`Fisker`	`i got a tauren pala now`
`14:21.23`	`foxlit`	`I got a human druid.`
`14:21.52`	`Cide`	`jquery is fucking stupid`
`14:22.11`	`Cide`	`it has a map function, which flattens any array you want to return into the mapped array`
`14:22.13`	`*** join/#wowuidev Odlaw (~ozzy@c-98-245-3-204.hsd1.co.comcast.net)`
`14:22.13`	`Cide`	`WHY?`
`14:22.20`	`Cide`	`what if you want to have an array of arrays`
`14:23.00`	`Cide`	`I'll have to return an array of an array -_-`
`14:25.25`	`Fisker`	`Cide`
`14:26.52`	`*** join/#wowuidev Hirsute (~chatzilla@lre-east-3-11.usahousing.utah.edu)`
`14:26.59`	`*** join/#wowuidev Hirsute (~chatzilla@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Developer/Hirsute)`
`14:29.47`	`*** join/#wowuidev solocommand (~josh@adsl-68-72-38-255.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net)`
`14:33.03`	`foxlit`	`gr, ie`
`14:33.12`	`foxlit`	`li {visibility none} << and yet it renders`
`14:33.23`	`foxlit`	`s/none/hidden`
`14:35.06`	`foxlit`	`And apparently ie isn't to blame for my horrible mis-matches of visibility values`
`14:36.23`	`*** join/#wowuidev Ressy (~valwws@CPE002129d9fabf-CM0014e88eec26.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)`
`14:39.58`	`Fisker`	`hey foxlit`
`14:41.13`	`*** join/#wowuidev malreth (~triti@99-113-1-199.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net)`
`14:41.20`	`*** join/#wowuidev yoshimo (~Kassandra@p549985F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)`
`14:42.45`	`*** join/#wowuidev Esamynn\|Away (~chatzilla@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Esamynn)`
`14:42.45`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+v Esamynn\|Away] by ChanServ`
`14:43.37`	`*** join/#wowuidev Borgleader (~borgleade@modemcable253.146-130-66.mc.videotron.ca)`
`14:45.36`	`zenzelezz`	`foxlit: did you typo that, or did I miss some case where you don't need the : ?`
`14:45.50`	`foxlit`	`I did typo that`
`14:46.19`	`zenzelezz`	`in which way does it render - it shows like normal?`
`14:47.40`	`foxlit`	`It was actually quite awesome`
`14:47.54`	`foxlit`	`I had li {visibility: none} and li.class {visibility: show}`
`14:48.06`	`foxlit`	`which is about as wrong as you can get it`
`14:48.29`	`Cide`	`haha`
`14:48.29`	`foxlit`	`But anyway, webkit correctly figured out that I wanted to hide all the li's without the class and rendered things fine.`
`14:48.30`	`Cide`	`yep`
`14:48.39`	`*** join/#wowuidev ckknight (~ckknight@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/CurseStaff/CurseForge/ckknight)`
`14:48.39`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+o ckknight] by ChanServ`
`14:48.40`	`Cide`	`that's pretty fail of webkit then!`
`14:49.36`	`*** join/#wowuidev ckknight (~ckknight@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/CurseStaff/CurseForge/ckknight)`
`14:49.36`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+o ckknight] by ChanServ`
`14:49.56`	`foxlit`	`ie seems to disregard any rules I have with a :target selector in them :/`
`14:50.12`	`foxlit`	`so if I have foo.c, foo:target {stuff}, it won't apply stuff to foo.c either`
`14:57.09`	`Fisker`	`bam foxlit`
`14:58.11`	`Ackis`	`I wake up in the morning like p diddy`
`14:58.17`	`*** join/#wowuidev solocommand (~josh@adsl-99-172-129-183.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net)`
`14:58.25`	`Lothaer`	`hey ackis`
`14:59.56`	`Ackis`	`hi`
`15:01.23`	`Fisker`	`not so hey Ackis`
`15:02.11`	`A-KO`	`http://www.totallyoffbeat.com/10-funny-robber-disguises-you-have-to-see-to-believe/`
`15:11.45`	`Fisker`	`zomg`
`15:11.48`	`Fisker`	`i just noticed something`
`15:11.57`	`Fisker`	`cosmic smash hits the floor from underneath`
`15:11.59`	`Fisker`	`fucking awesome`
`15:12.05`	`*** part/#wowuidev Lothaer (~jamiecook@115-166-46-60.ip.adam.com.au)`
`15:12.31`	`*** join/#wowuidev malreth (~triti@99-113-1-199.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net)`
`15:12.40`	`Fisker`	`malreth`
`15:12.48`	`malreth`	`Fisker: no`
`15:13.38`	`Fisker`	`ok`
`15:18.12`	`*** join/#wowuidev p3lim (~p3lim@200.41.202.84.customer.cdi.no)`
`15:20.38`	`Thunder_Child`	`wow Fisker, you scared Malreth away`
`15:26.59`	`*** join/#wowuidev _FuzzeR_ (~fuzzer201@201.19.91.191)`
`15:27.56`	`*** part/#wowuidev _FuzzeR_ (~fuzzer201@201.19.91.191)`
`15:31.51`	`Thunder_Child`	`"A limited quantity of BlizzCon merchandise is being set aside for BlizzCon Virtual Ticket holders, to be sold in an exclusive merchandise sale occuring October 13 and 14." i guess that means you can stand in line from the comfort of your chair.`
`15:32.36`	`Fisker`	`old`
`15:32.54`	`Thunder_Child`	`yes, yes it is`
`15:33.12`	`Thunder_Child`	`but this bothers me not`
`15:33.34`	`Fisker`	`i wonder if they'll have reasonable shipping/prices or we'll get fucked +25% + international shipping because we're US`
`15:33.37`	`Fisker`	`EU*`
`15:34.12`	`Thunder_Child`	`i'm guessing fucked`
`15:40.00`	`*** join/#wowuidev NightHawkTheSane (~jonathan@li83-182.members.linode.com)`
`16:03.34`	`Ackis`	`trolls cogwheel`
`16:03.45`	`cogwheel`	`warms Ackis' globe`
`16:04.10`	`Ackis`	`oh noes`
`16:04.35`	`Fisker`	`cogwheel`
`16:04.36`	`Fisker`	`Ackis`
`16:04.38`	`Fisker`	`hello`
`16:04.43`	`cogwheel`	`Fisker: Ackis`
`16:05.24`	`Ackis`	`i am Fisker`
`16:05.34`	`Fisker`	`no`
`16:05.38`	`Ackis`	`Fisker: add me to Real ID`
`16:06.47`	`Fisker`	`no`
`16:07.22`	`Ackis`	`:(`
`16:07.28`	`Bruners`	`i secrectly added Fisker's RealID`
`16:09.06`	`Fisker`	`no`
`16:09.27`	`Ackis`	`50 more junk boxes collected!`
`16:16.02`	`Fisker`	`i came ackis`
`16:16.15`	`Bruners`	`twice`
`16:22.31`	`Fisker`	`twice? :O`
`16:22.54`	`Fisker`	`robokitty`
`16:22.55`	`Fisker`	`ro`
`16:22.56`	`Fisker`	`robokitty`
`16:23.12`	`Fisker`	`i need you`
`16:23.14`	`Fisker`	`on msn`
`16:40.40`	`*** join/#wowuidev yoshimo (~Kassandra@p549985F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)`
`16:40.49`	`Fisker`	`gom are now jerks`
`16:46.04`	`Cide`	`the tickets are now diamonds`
`16:47.04`	`Fisker`	`it sucks Cide :(`
`16:47.07`	`Fisker`	`they totally sold out!`
`16:47.33`	`Fisker`	`You can only see the first match per fight after live`
`16:50.05`	`Fisker`	`cog\|away`
`16:50.07`	`Fisker`	`good luck`
`16:50.10`	`A-KO`	`http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=savCRJArVZo`
`16:50.10`	`Fisker`	`we're all counting on you`
`16:50.24`	`cogwheel`	`Fisker: PSYCH!`
`16:51.51`	`A-KO`	`http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lLqqR2pcws`
`16:58.59`	`Fisker`	`old A-KO`
`17:03.00`	`*** join/#wowuidev Osagasu (~Creek@67-197-1-37.rh1.dyn.cm.comporium.net)`
`17:13.03`	`*** join/#wowuidev Iriel (~Iriel@adsl-71-158-244-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)`
`17:13.03`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+o Iriel] by ChanServ`
`17:13.28`	`*** join/#wowuidev kd3 (~kd3@wikia/kaydeethree)`
`17:18.47`	`*** join/#wowuidev alestane (~alestane@c-66-30-209-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)`
`17:18.47`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+v alestane] by ChanServ`
`17:21.54`	`*** join/#wowuidev augustl (~augustl@6.79-160-9.customer.lyse.net)`
`17:26.36`	`*** join/#wowuidev Sliker (~ponies@5e07a0cb.bb.sky.com)`
`17:30.17`	`*** join/#wowuidev Silker (~ponies@5e07bf7e.bb.sky.com)`
`17:37.30`	`*** join/#wowuidev Proditor (~Proditor@c80-217-77-195.bredband.comhem.se)`
`17:38.05`	`*** join/#wowuidev yoshimo (~Kassandra@p549985F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)`
`17:39.14`	`Ressy`	`is /run working again? I have that one addon which is supposed to re-enable it, but it doesn't seem to be working.`
`17:40.00`	`kd3`	`it's working`
`17:40.21`	`kd3`	`er, I dunno if it's cause of 'it's all cog's fault' or not, though`
`17:40.57`	`Iriel`	`It might have gotten fixed in the last build, I did get confirmation from the devs they'd un-broken it`
`17:41.00`	`Ressy`	`cuz I'm trying to use your item macro, and doesn't seem to work.`
`17:41.12`	`Iriel`	`But they dont know (until we do) which of their builds makes it out to us`
`17:41.22`	`Iriel`	`Just do /dump 1`
`17:41.23`	`kd3`	`make sure you're outputting to ChatFrame1 and not 4`
`17:41.28`	`Iriel`	`if you get NO output, it's still broken`
`17:41.28`	`Ressy`	`ah`
`17:41.53`	`Ressy`	`okies. thx guys :)`
`17:42.29`	`Ressy`	`kd3: I really should just bookmark your macro page. lol.`
`17:42.36`	`kd3`	`lol`
`17:46.23`	`Fisker`	`hey kd3`
`17:46.24`	`Fisker`	`stars`
`17:46.27`	`Fisker`	`stares*`
`17:46.31`	`kd3`	`yes fisk-fisk?`
`17:51.09`	`Ressy`	`Is it taking anyone else a long amount of time to get from the launcher, to the login screen actually popping up?`
`17:52.16`	`yoshimo`	`mhmm im stuck at " loading new tools" from the betalauncher and the live one isnt active i linked directly to wow.exe`
`17:53.00`	`Ressy`	`also takes forever to load into wow because of the feedback tool error.`
`17:57.33`	`foxlit`	`Yes, the launcher -> wow transition takes ages`
`17:59.16`	`*** join/#wowuidev jimmybaker (~jimmybake@c-76-22-172-201.hsd1.tn.comcast.net)`
`18:00.05`	`*** join/#wowuidev Gintaro (~gintaro@harm.osso.nl)`
`18:05.42`	`alestane`	`~xml`
`18:05.42`	`purl`	`Some people, when confronted with a problem, think 'I know, I'll use XML.' Now they have two problems.`
`18:06.14`	`Ressy`	`Anyone else having problems getting into Lost Isles? I'm stuck on a loading screen. Deleted all addons, and saved variables, dropped my settings.. nada.`
`18:06.43`	`Iriel`	`Ressy: I'm sitting on the loading screen too, HD light on solid for now, but it's only been a little bit`
`18:07.06`	`*** join/#wowuidev Fogger (~fogger@host109-152-51-249.range109-152.btcentralplus.com)`
`18:08.09`	`Ressy`	`Tell me if you get in, cuz I can't seem to... Might check the forums.. See if anyone else is having the same prob.`
`18:08.24`	`*** join/#wowuidev malreth (~triti@99-113-1-199.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net)`
`18:09.07`	`Ressy`	`K.. Not just us. Theres a thread on the forums about the same prob.`
`18:10.10`	`Ressy`	`Seems anyone who's selected for free char customization (to test the system) can't log in`
`18:12.45`	`Fogger`	`Anyone aware of an addon that can ensure a specific item is always placed in a specific bag slot? I am constantly having to manually move my shield whenever I switch to a Two-Hand Weapon.`
`18:16.02`	`yoshimo`	`if the wow patcher says "download not authorised by the tracker", what exactly does that mean?`
`18:16.27`	`*** join/#wowuidev nuoHep (~nuohep@89.222.156.36)`
`18:17.02`	`Iriel`	`Interesting, most of my characters have either customization or race change available`
`18:17.05`	`Iriel`	`(but not all)`
`18:17.47`	`Ressy`	`all of mine do`
`18:17.52`	`Ressy`	`I used one on an alt..`
`18:17.59`	`Ressy`	`got yet another on the same alt.`
`18:18.10`	`Ressy`	`so tried to go in on the main, and got a GUARD_PAGE crash`
`18:18.14`	`Cide`	`Iriel: they're stress testing the paid services`
`18:18.32`	`Ressy`	`Yes, but their stress test is bugging out ppl from trying to log in.`
`18:18.33`	`Cide`	`the available option changes hourly`
`18:18.40`	`Ressy`	`I don't even want to try the stress test.`
`18:19.03`	`Cide`	`well you're beta testing a product`
`18:19.09`	`Shirik`	`SO YOU HAVE TO`
`18:19.10`	`Cide`	`what you want to do boils down to either not testing or testing what they want`
`18:19.17`	`Fisker`	`slaps Shirik around a bit with a large trout`
`18:19.18`	`Fisker`	`slaps Cide around a bit with a large trout`
`18:19.25`	`Cide`	`hi Shirik`
`18:19.25`	`Fisker`	`i will kill you Shirik`
`18:19.27`	`Fisker`	`with Cide`
`18:19.39`	`Ressy`	`We always have a choice on what we want to test. Other users log in fine.`
`18:19.49`	`Ressy`	`this has to be a bug.`
`18:19.54`	`Cide`	`of course it is`
`18:19.56`	`Iriel`	`Unfortunately the testing I wanted to do required me to be in the game`
`18:20.01`	`Iriel`	`Ah well, i'll try later`
`18:22.11`	`malreth`	`~seen iriel`
`18:22.17`	`purl`	`iriel is currently on #wowprogramming (1h 9m 14s) #wowuidev (1h 9m 14s). Has said a total of 9 messages. Is idling for 2m 16s, last said: 'Ah well, i'll try later'.`
`18:22.23`	`malreth`	`NOOOOOOO!`
`18:22.38`	`cogwheel`	`pokes the malreth`
`18:25.35`	`Fisker`	`malreth`
`18:25.37`	`Fisker`	`i owned you`
`18:25.42`	`malreth`	`Fisker: no`
`18:25.46`	`Fisker`	`yes`
`18:25.51`	`Fisker`	`i said "ok" and you left`
`18:25.53`	`Fisker`	`= i owned you`
`18:26.43`	`*** join/#wowuidev EthanCentaurai (~ethan@84.13.172.189)`
`18:32.32`	`myrkraverk`	`what is #wowprogramming?`
`18:33.07`	`Fisker`	`~wowprogramming`
`18:33.07`	`purl`	`extra, extra, read all about it, wowprogramming is World of Warcraft Programming: A Guide and Reference for Creating WoW Addons - http://is.gd/7A3Jx - a book written by Cladhaire and Gazmik, or the companion site and API reference available online for free at http://wowprogramming.com`
`18:33.33`	`myrkraverk`	`;-)`
`18:34.53`	`myrkraverk`	`Ressy, did you ever get the number of wine users?`
`18:43.36`	`*** join/#wowuidev nebula (~Neb@c-75-73-235-102.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)`
`18:54.58`	`*** join/#wowuidev EthanCentaurai (~ethan@84.13.172.189)`
`18:55.33`	`*** join/#wowuidev Sliker (~ponies@5e07a33a.bb.sky.com)`
`19:02.46`	`foxlit`	`http://www.wowcompares.com/ << weep :(`
`19:03.58`	`foxlit`	`The stylesheets seem to have been eaten by HTTP 500.`
`19:05.40`	`Fisker`	`your sheets sucks`
`19:13.05`	`Cide`	`nice english fisker`
`19:13.39`	`haste`	`nice Fisker Cide !`
`19:13.41`	`Fisker`	`fuck youre mom Cide your such an jerk`
`19:13.45`	`foxlit`	`He's distraught over the +b from #wiki`
`19:14.14`	`Fisker`	`i didn't even know i was banned`
`19:14.15`	`Cide`	`he got banned from #wiki? nice`
`19:14.24`	`Fisker`	`usually that takes a couple of weeks for me to notice, due to how much i care`
`19:14.34`	`Cide`	`fuck I'm mom?`
`19:14.51`	`Fisker`	`Infact you might as well just kick me, pretty much the same effect`
`19:15.18`	`Cide`	`do it`
`19:17.11`	`Cide`	`komodo ide 6-rc is nice`
`19:18.16`	`Fisker`	`slaps Cide around a bit with a large trout`
`19:18.42`	`Cide`	`ow`
`19:33.59`	`*** join/#wowuidev the-golem (~Darrin@c-98-255-201-176.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)`
`19:36.48`	`alestane`	`Apple's NSDictionary has to be the only lookup type I know that wants the value specified before the key to assign it to.`
`19:39.53`	`Cide`	`makes sense`
`19:40.24`	`Cide`	`apple invented the word "backward" anyway`
`19:40.35`	`Cide`	`s/anyway/after all/`
`19:43.30`	`*** join/#wowuidev durcyn (~durcyn@WoWUIDev/Durcyn)`
`19:44.15`	`*** join/#wowuidev Ildhesten (~Ildhesten@83.91.89.186)`
`19:45.52`	`Fisker`	`nice english Cide`
`19:45.58`	`Cide`	`thank you`
`19:47.12`	`mikma`	`inverted the word backward`
`19:49.02`	`*** join/#wowuidev daev (~bleh@pool-72-86-110-88.aubnin.fios.verizon.net)`
`19:59.20`	`Iriel`	`malreth: ?`
`20:03.12`	`alestane`	`Using closures in C is a little weird.`
`20:04.17`	`*** join/#wowuidev Yssaril (~kvirc@99-57-32-25.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net)`
`20:09.42`	`foxlit`	`alestane: assignValue: toKey:?`
`20:10.27`	`alestane`	`[[NSDictionary alloc] initWithObjectsAndKeys: val1, key1, val2, key2, ...valN, keyN, nil];`
`20:10.35`	`*** join/#wowuidev Repo (~supybot@repos.curseforge.net)`
`20:10.58`	`foxlit`	`I was close, it's [nsMutableDictionary setObject: forKey:]`
`20:11.10`	`alestane`	`Or [someDictionary setObject:val forKey:k].`
`20:11.59`	`foxlit`	`http://wow.go-hero.net/framexml/about << I've come up with some screenshots showing off various things. Do they make sense?`
`20:17.38`	`Cide`	`looks fine to me`
`20:18.04`	`Adys`	`neat`
`20:18.37`	`cbreak`	`playing starcraft alone is boring.`
`20:18.43`	`cbreak`	`I like 2v2 much more than 1v1`
`20:18.58`	`foxlit`	`cbreak: 3v3?`
`20:19.19`	`cbreak`	`do you remember altherac valley five years ago?`
`20:19.28`	`cbreak`	`wait time in 3v3 and 4v4 are even longer.`
`20:19.49`	`foxlit`	`Wait time in 3v3 is under a minute`
`20:20.49`	`cbreak`	`I stopped after not getting any opponent after 10 minutes last time I tried.`
`20:21.25`	`Legorol`	`foxlit: how are you deciding which functions calls are API and which are just Lua globals?`
`20:22.01`	`foxlit`	`Legorol: I generate a list of Lua functions declared in FrameXML`
`20:22.12`	`cbreak`	`aren't all functions that are there before any addon is loaded application programming interface functions?`
`20:22.15`	`foxlit`	`Which lets me do other cool stuff, like http://wow.go-hero.net/framexml/go/UIDropDownMenu_Initialize`
`20:22.36`	`Legorol`	`cbreak: yah but FrameXML loads before addons, so an addon can never tell`
`20:22.50`	`cbreak`	`yes, but FrameXML is part of the API`
`20:22.57`	`cbreak`	`(the WoW api)`
`20:22.59`	`Legorol`	`i wouldn't say so, no`
`20:23.07`	`Legorol`	`or at least, not in the sense that people tend to document things`
`20:23.11`	`foxlit`	`Meh, FrameXML is more like a library that you can't opt out of.`
`20:23.30`	`foxlit`	`Parts of it are certainly API-like in nature, while parts of it just implement some portion of the UI.`
`20:23.33`	`cbreak`	`libraries are usually used to ffer an API`
`20:23.37`	`Legorol`	`i mean for example you wouldn't really say that UnitFramePortrait_Update is an API function`
`20:23.41`	`cbreak`	`I guess this is semantics for you though`
`20:24.07`	`Legorol`	`framexml declares tons of functions which are for its internal use, but are polluting the global namespace`
`20:24.12`	`Legorol`	`that's how i look at it`
`20:24.38`	`cbreak`	`technically you could banish them out of the global namespace :/`
`20:24.52`	`cbreak`	`not without undesired sacrifices, I know`
`20:25.22`	`Legorol`	`but blizz didn't banish it, did they`
`20:25.30`	`Legorol`	`so if an addon just enumerates all global functions, you get way too much back`
`20:26.04`	`foxlit`	`[You can tell whether the function was exposed by C or Lua]`
`20:26.39`	`cbreak`	`are you sure that all of the non-frame-xml api is in C?`
`20:26.41`	`Legorol`	`foxlit: how so?`
`20:27.16`	`Legorol`	`cbreak: what do you mean? framexml is the only lua code that runs before an addon, so is the only one that can define non-C functions`
`20:27.21`	`cbreak`	`lua still has debug.getinfo?`
`20:27.31`	`cbreak`	`Legorol: interesting.`
`20:27.38`	`foxlit`	`Except for PaperDollFrameItemFlyoutButton_OnClick]`
`20:27.39`	`Legorol`	`and no, no debug.getinfo`
`20:27.41`	`Legorol`	`no debug in WoW`
`20:27.43`	`Iriel`	`A fairly reasonable approach is that anything in the global environment that didn't come from FrameXML is the true 'game API', regardless of how it's created.`
`20:27.51`	`foxlit`	`which is clearly too awesome to be a Lua function, despite being declared in FrameXML`
`20:27.54`	`Legorol`	`what Iriel said`
`20:28.23`	`foxlit`	`The trick I use for other thing is that you can dump Lua functions, but you cannot dump C functions`
`20:28.32`	`Legorol`	`that's neat`
`20:29.00`	`cbreak`	`I think I read that there are functions that you can not dump even though they are lua functions`
`20:29.01`	`zenzelezz`	`dumping C functions return nil then?`
`20:29.18`	`cbreak`	`(apparently functions with upvalues can not be dumped)`
`20:29.22`	`cbreak`	`I've not tried it.`
`20:29.25`	`Iriel`	`I liked that statement earlier "FrameXML is a library you can't opt out of"`
`20:29.41`	`Iriel`	`They didn't used to be dumpable, but I think they are these days`
`20:29.50`	`*** join/#wowuidev Seerah (~Ryan@adsl-242-190-26.mem.bellsouth.net)`
`20:29.50`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ`
`20:29.54`	`foxlit`	`I get it wrong for http://wow.go-hero.net/framexml/12942/PaperDollFrame.lua#3128`
`20:30.46`	`foxlit`	`cbreak: (apparently functions with upvalues can not be dumped) << tested that, not the case`
`20:31.08`	`zenzelezz`	`C functions are all "im in ur golbal envirunments, u dont kno y"`
`20:31.34`	`cbreak`	`that's no inherent property of C functions`
`20:31.53`	`zenzelezz`	`I know, I just take any opportunity to paraphrase that thing`
`20:32.05`	`zenzelezz`	`most of the time I don't even know what I'm talking about`
`20:32.28`	`Iriel`	`the upvalue + dump thing changed with 5.1`
`20:32.56`	`alestane`	`If I want to pass a C macro a block of code, how do I convince the preprocessor to treat the block as one macro argument?`
`20:33.05`	`cbreak`	`someone should update the manual :)`
`20:33.09`	`cbreak`	`"Returns a string containing a binary representation of the given function, so that a later loadstring on this string returns a copy of the function. function must be a Lua function without upvalues."`
`20:33.13`	`foxlit`	`And the weird thing is that if I run that code in a standalone lua interpreter, it dumps just fine`
`20:33.41`	`cbreak`	`alestane: you mean the line ending escapes?`
`20:33.45`	`cbreak`	`with \`
`20:34.27`	`cbreak`	`you should also consider putting the whole thing into () if you want to use the macro in expressions`
`20:34.43`	`alestane`	`not just that, it's interpreting commas in the code block passed as separating macro arguments, rather than as lexical elements.`
`20:35.00`	`alestane`	`They're declaration macros.`
`20:35.45`	`zenzelezz`	`... I just pictured the compiler spitting out a "You are not declared!" in Illidan's voice during compilation`
`20:35.48`	`Fisker`	`alestanemen`
`20:39.45`	`cbreak`	`hmm`
`20:39.54`	`cbreak`	`C macros are rather primitive :/`
`20:40.04`	`cbreak`	`only know the basics about them`
`20:40.31`	`zenzelezz`	`"Macros are evil"`
`20:43.16`	`Adys`	`http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1422365`
`20:43.22`	`Adys`	`Worms forums are worse than wow forums`
`20:44.21`	`cbreak`	`alestane: like this? http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/cpp/Concatenation.html#Concatenation`
`20:47.02`	`*** join/#wowuidev tekkub (~tekkub@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Dongle/GitHub/Tekkub)`
`20:47.03`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+v tekkub] by ChanServ`
`20:57.01`	`*** join/#wowuidev Slackwise (~slackwise@c-98-228-240-33.hsd1.il.comcast.net)`
`20:59.42`	`*** join/#wowuidev Amarande (amarande@68-191-37-155.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com)`
`20:59.52`	`Amarande`	`yay, finished reg HoR ... damn, no caster helm this time`
`21:00.09`	`Amarande`	`and it took two attempts since we died horribly on the lich king first time because the tank sucked`
`21:00.21`	`Amarande`	`(why, oh why do people roll tank if they can't do it.)`
`21:01.02`	`Amarande`	`literally, he let the abom maul me to death and apparently forgot he had a taunt button.`
`21:01.17`	`Amarande`	`then he grouses when the party dies on the final wave because they don't have the dps ... um durrrr?`
`21:01.50`	`cbreak`	`hmm. surveying reads similar to Eve online's scanner usage.`
`21:03.03`	`Amarande`	`cbreak: tanks should have to have at least a working understanding of all classes, right? :)`
`21:03.08`	`Amarande`	`or at least as it pertains to threat?`
`21:03.19`	`cbreak`	`in my oppinion?`
`21:03.22`	`foxlit`	`Amarande: If I recall correctly, you're a dps class.`
`21:03.22`	`Amarande`	`if you do not understand the ins and outs of threat and what your party is capable and not capable of, you should not be tanking.`
`21:03.26`	`cbreak`	`everyone should have a basic understanding of every class`
`21:03.28`	`foxlit`	`If you die to threat, it's your own damn fault.`
`21:03.30`	`Amarande`	`foxlit: yeah, both my 80s are DPS classes.`
`21:03.54`	`Amarande`	`foxlit: except, 1) my DK is HEAVILY geared and can generally actually take a couple of hits from most things in 5's`
`21:04.09`	`Amarande`	`2) my DK actually took 3 points in the threat reduction talent so as to deal with potential threat issues in 5's in particular`
`21:04.12`	`foxlit`	`There is no except here.`
`21:04.21`	`Amarande`	`3) my other DPS, on the other hand, is a warlock`
`21:04.36`	`Amarande`	`it seems warlocks STILL generate a higher TPS:DPS ratio than other DPS, and they STILL have a very crappy aggro dump`
`21:04.43`	`Amarande`	`plus, I'm aff, it's not like I can turn off dots that are already in place`
`21:05.31`	`mikma`	`tpsdps`
`21:05.39`	`mikma`	`boomkin > others`
`21:05.46`	`Amarande`	`do you think they'll ever give more love to warlocks, or is any attempt to do so going to be rebuffed by a chorus in the forums of "Two Oh One! Ne-ver a-gain! Two Oh One! Ne-ver a-gain!"?`
`21:05.47`	`cbreak`	`rejoice, in cataclysm, agro reduction will be removed`
`21:05.54`	`cbreak`	`and many other fun things too :(`
`21:05.54`	`Sliker`	`Yay`
`21:06.04`	`Amarande`	`cbreak: lemme guess`
`21:06.15`	`Amarande`	`this basically makes aff a totally unviable spec for locks outside of well-oiled guild groups`
`21:06.18`	`cbreak`	`bye bye regenerating thousands of mana by absorbing aoe with frost ward`
`21:06.35`	`cbreak`	`oh, I don't know.`
`21:06.37`	`Amarande`	`because otherwise you will die every every single time from not knowing exactly how all out you can go without overaggroing`
`21:06.43`	`cbreak`	`it will be removed for all classes`
`21:06.51`	`foxlit`	`Amarande: It requires you to have the foresight to not debuff mobs that will come and eat you`
`21:06.51`	`Amarande`	`(and like I said, the thing about aff is you really CAN'T stop dps, because you can't remove existing dots)`
`21:06.54`	`cbreak`	`just do what I do with my mage`
`21:06.57`	`cbreak`	`Focus Fire`
`21:06.58`	`mikma`	`archeology pointed out to be very long and frustrating to level`
`21:07.00`	`foxlit`	`"Oh noes, I have to think!"`
`21:07.17`	`cbreak`	`mikma: you can fly around on the old world now...`
`21:07.28`	`kd3`	`mikma; I hit 40ish and I'm already getting annoyed at it`
`21:07.29`	`mikma`	`cbreak: no shit, sherlock`
`21:07.32`	`cbreak`	`foxlit: worry no longer, arcane mages don't have to anymore`
`21:07.33`	`Amarande`	`foxlit: I'm more thinking about the issue that in random 5's, you don't know how much threat the tank is capable of until AFTER you either a) get yelled at for not doing enough DPS, particularly in the harder dungeons Cata will feature, or b) overthreat and die (and then get yelled at since dead men don't do DPS)`
`21:07.37`	`kd3`	`points at the list up at www.wowwiki.com/Archaeology`
`21:07.43`	`mikma`	`kd3: i got annoyed at 3!`
`21:07.56`	`Amarande`	`EG will probably become a virtually mandatory addon for cata, I think :)`
`21:08.03`	`cbreak`	`eg?`
`21:08.10`	`mikma`	`elitistgroup`
`21:08.14`	`Cide`	`rofl no?`
`21:08.15`	`cbreak`	`never heard of.`
`21:08.24`	`mikma`	`go and wowi it`
`21:08.30`	`Amarande`	`Cide: it will be an absolutely essential survival tool, particularly for high threat squishy classes like mages and locks`
`21:08.37`	`Cide`	`no it won't`
`21:08.43`	`cbreak`	`WoW has a threat meter nowadays`
`21:08.44`	`Amarande`	`you need to know what your tank is capable of and you need to know it almost BEFORE you go into combat`
`21:08.52`	`cogwheel`	`sneezes on Fisker`
`21:08.52`	`Cide`	`no you don't`
`21:09.00`	`Cide`	`do realize people won't die in 1 hit anymore`
`21:09.07`	`mikma`	`cogwned fisker`
`21:09.08`	`cbreak`	`didn't they say they will remove the squishy from the mage class?`
`21:09.13`	`cbreak`	`we might be able to tank!`
`21:09.15`	`Amarande`	`cbreak: but the question is`
`21:09.17`	`cbreak`	`ok. probably not...`
`21:09.24`	`Amarande`	`will they make locks any less coke-canish?`
`21:09.31`	`Cide`	`and 5 player dungeons have never been particularly difficult`
`21:09.40`	`Amarande`	`or is it still going to be "Two Oh One! Ne-ver A-gain!"?`
`21:09.41`	`Cide`	`I can tank most of them on my priest`
`21:10.03`	`Amarande`	`since apparently most of the pain that locks suffer comes DIRECTLY from that patch`
`21:10.30`	`Amarande`	`I haven't played a paladin since BC, so I'm not sure if they've suffered a similarly massive backlash from the 3.0.2 ret fiasco`
`21:10.58`	`Amarande`	`wonders which class will end up with an OP situation in 4.0 due to the new talents coming in at 80 and become the next buttmonkey for Blizzard. :S`
`21:11.13`	`Cide`	`the next buttmonkey?`
`21:11.34`	`cbreak`	`what I saw so far indicates:`
`21:11.40`	`cbreak`	`WoW will be dumbed down even more`
`21:11.42`	`Amarande`	`Cide: like locks got hated on constantly in BC, and apparently rets got shoved back towards the mediocrity pool in LK`
`21:11.44`	`cbreak`	`less talents to chose from`
`21:11.48`	`cbreak`	`less spells to chose from`
`21:11.55`	`Cide`	`less talents and less spells doesn't mean dumbed down`
`21:11.57`	`cbreak`	`off-spec spells will be even less viable`
`21:12.00`	`Cide`	`stop seeing in black and white`
`21:12.08`	`cbreak`	`rotations will be even less variable`
`21:12.09`	`Amarande`	`cbreak: meh. I can do with fewer spells`
`21:12.15`	`Cide`	`chess has what, 9 pieces?`
`21:12.22`	`cbreak`	`no...`
`21:12.27`	`cbreak`	`32...`
`21:12.29`	`Amarande`	`there's only so many really good hotkeys to assign`
`21:12.29`	`Cide`	`9 different pieces`
`21:12.33`	`Amarande`	`Cide: 6 pieces`
`21:12.43`	`Cide`	`oh yeah, I didn't account for symmetry`
`21:12.48`	`Cide`	`even better for my argument's sake`
`21:12.54`	`Amarande`	`actually, 6 types of 'men'`
`21:13.05`	`Amarande`	`in chess parlance, Pawns are not considered pieces, although they are considered men`
`21:13.18`	`cbreak`	`is the queen considered a man?`
`21:13.28`	`Corrodias`	`i'm sure we're using game parlance here, not chess parlance`
`21:13.36`	`Cide`	`regardless`
`21:13.37`	`Corrodias`	`in games in general, they're all pieces.`
`21:13.40`	`foxlit`	`I'll lynch the next peron to say parlance.`
`21:13.45`	`A-KO`	`parlance`
`21:13.53`	`foxlit`	`~whalenuke A-KO`
`21:13.53`	`purl`	`ACTION dons her radiation cloak and tinted glasses while a highly intelligent whale named Ray precipitates critical mass for uncontrolled nuclear fission around A-KO with his mind powers.`
`21:14.02`	`Cide`	`saying that wow gets dumbed down because you get less talents and less spells is fucking stupid`
`21:14.09`	`Cide`	`I can't emphasize the "fucking stupid" enough`
`21:14.26`	`foxlit`	`Also, as a druid, nothing of interest got removed.`
`21:14.26`	`A-KO`	`actually Cide, the talent changes they've made are phenomenal IMO`
`21:14.33`	`Cide`	`there you go`
`21:14.35`	`A-KO`	`it simplifies shit`
`21:14.37`	`Cide`	`they could fill the rest of the slots with "increases your damage by 0%/0%/0%/0%/0%" if you want, cbreak`
`21:14.42`	`A-KO`	`and actually gets rid of nubs`
`21:14.43`	`A-KO`	`doing like`
`21:14.46`	`cbreak`	`I don't care about those`
`21:14.47`	`A-KO`	`OMGLOOKATMYLEETHYBRIDBUILD`
`21:14.51`	`cbreak`	`I care about the loss of fun talents`
`21:15.02`	`Cide`	`you mean the vast increase in the number of fun talents?`
`21:15.08`	`cbreak`	`no`
`21:15.11`	`Cide`	`and the vast decrease in the number of boring talents like the ones I described?`
`21:15.11`	`foxlit`	`Eclipse is terribad, though`
`21:15.11`	`A-KO`	`yeah druids (balnace) got a ton of new fun talents`
`21:15.13`	`cbreak`	`I meanthe loss of fun talents`
`21:15.13`	`foxlit`	`:(`
`21:15.18`	`A-KO`	`yeah foxlit, it is`
`21:15.22`	`Cide`	`point out a class that got less fun talents`
`21:15.25`	`Cide`	`or a tree rather`
`21:15.40`	`cbreak`	`I am a mage, so I spoke about mages`
`21:15.41`	`foxlit`	`I'm looking at all this mastery gear, and I'm thinking "Oh how fun it'd be to be a class that could actually use it while soloing"`
`21:15.45`	`A-KO`	`foxlit: what they should do is change starfire entirely or something, make it an instant cast big nuke with a cooldown, that you build up with attacks or something`
`21:15.58`	`Cide`	`for one you're arguing from an "in general" perspective`
`21:16.07`	`cbreak`	`currently I am arcane and I have a quite fun tree that excells at aoe heavy fights`
`21:16.10`	`Cide`	`but which tree(s) have less fun talents for mages?`
`21:16.15`	`cbreak`	`(incomming magic aoe)`
`21:16.48`	`A-KO`	`I personally really enjoy the locked-in format of the new talent builds also`
`21:16.53`	`cbreak`	`I have magic absorbtion and frost warding, combined with a glyph of frost ward`
`21:17.05`	`cbreak`	`and incanter's absorbtion`
`21:17.07`	`A-KO`	`honestly, that's where most people would probably complain`
`21:17.07`	`Cide`	`point out which fun talents were removed then?`
`21:17.17`	`cbreak`	`that means I can absorb quite a lot of incomming aoe`
`21:17.19`	`A-KO`	`Cide: LIKELY the ability to do something like 20/x/20 or something :P`
`21:17.31`	`A-KO`	`who knows`
`21:17.33`	`Cide`	`so you can absorb quite a lot of incoming aoe`
`21:17.36`	`cbreak`	`get tones of mana back (since the wards hold much longer with the chance to absorb 100% of the damage without breaking)`
`21:17.39`	`cbreak`	`and I get ore damage`
`21:17.40`	`Cide`	`and in cataclysm you can't I suppose`
`21:17.52`	`Cide`	`that's not really what I call a fun talent`
`21:17.55`	`cbreak`	`in cataclysm, all those are removed`
`21:17.59`	`cbreak`	`I find it fun`
`21:18.07`	`Amarande`	`A-KO: locked in? you can't respec anymore?`
`21:18.10`	`cbreak`	`in my frost tree, I will lose frostbite`
`21:18.21`	`cbreak`	`so kiting as frostmage will be ... more boring`
`21:18.24`	`cbreak`	`I guess.`
`21:18.27`	`kd3`	`amarande; you have to spend 31 points in your primary tree before you can spec points in any other tree`
`21:18.39`	`mikma`	`amarande: yes you can, but you need to use 30 points in a talenttree before you can use them in any other tree`
`21:18.45`	`mikma`	`31*`
`21:18.45`	`Cide`	`"Increases the effect of your dampen magic spell by 25%", "frost/fire ward have a 15% chance to negate the warded spell"`
`21:18.48`	`Cide`	`is that a fun talent?`
`21:18.54`	`cbreak`	`yes.`
`21:18.55`	`*** join/#wowuidev brykrys (~chatzilla@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Dev/Brykrys)`
`21:19.01`	`Cide`	`it sounds like an incredibly boring talent to me`
`21:19.04`	`cbreak`	`it is when it works :)`
`21:19.08`	`*** part/#wowuidev Thaoky (Thaoky@22.51-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be)`
`21:19.12`	`Amarande`	`how many talent points are we getting at 80/85 now?`
`21:19.30`	`cbreak`	`my best success was getting 100k mana back`
`21:19.32`	`cbreak`	`from one hit`
`21:19.34`	`cbreak`	`and surviving`
`21:19.35`	`Amarande`	`yay, toc5 popped again`
`21:19.43`	`cbreak`	`I died five seconds later though...`
`21:20.04`	`cbreak`	`but before mimron drove over me, I negated his massive fire nuke thing attack that way :)`
`21:20.31`	`cbreak`	`there are also no new fun talents appart from the one that makes arcane blast slow like frost bolts`
`21:20.42`	`cbreak`	`which... make arcane blasts ... more like frost bolts I suppose`
`21:20.51`	`cbreak`	`so... it... is as fun as frost spec?`
`21:21.03`	`Cide`	`yeah`
`21:21.11`	`Cide`	`the talent spec is totally dependent on that one talent`
`21:21.16`	`cbreak`	`and it seems blizzard try their best to make the arcane rotation go away from maximizing dps by stacking debuffs from ab`
`21:21.26`	`cbreak`	`to a simple spam ab until am procs`
`21:21.36`	`Cide`	`they made the arcane rotation a lot more fun imo`
`21:21.43`	`cbreak`	`it's inflexible`
`21:21.45`	`Cide`	`with mana adept`
`21:21.49`	`kd3`	`arcane is all about keeping mana up`
`21:22.00`	`kd3`	`and keeping dps high while doing so`
`21:22.02`	`cbreak`	`yeah, but they remove quite a few tools to manage mana`
`21:22.11`	`Cide`	`you mean get lots of mana`
`21:22.19`	`cbreak`	`for example you can no longer release arcane barrage at 4 stacks with arcane missiles`
`21:22.26`	`cbreak`	`you have to use missile barrage`
`21:22.28`	`*** join/#wowuidev olafski (~egrimm@dream.student.utwente.nl)`
`21:22.37`	`cbreak`	`I mean, arcane barrage for arcane blast...`
`21:22.43`	`cbreak`	`gah, those names confuse me tonight...`
`21:22.47`	`cbreak`	`hope you know what I meant`
`21:22.51`	`mikma`	`goatse`
`21:22.57`	`Cide`	`you have to balance mana adept's +damage versus going for higher ab stacks`
`21:23.12`	`Cide`	`so you want to keep your average mana high but that lowers your dps`
`21:23.23`	`Cide`	`but you don't want to end the fight with full mana since that's a lot of wasted ab stacks`
`21:23.24`	`Cide`	`etc`
`21:23.32`	`cbreak`	`you can no longer chose to release until arcane missiles procs for you, unless you release with arcane barrage`
`21:23.36`	`Cide`	`seems a lot more dynamic than the vast majority of classes`
`21:23.53`	`cbreak`	`it's more proc dependent`
`21:24.27`	`cbreak`	`if releasing with arcane barrage is a waste of dps or not can't be said until we know the final numbers of course`
`21:25.17`	`cbreak`	`for frost, losing frostbite hurts`
`21:25.54`	`Cide`	`no?`
`21:26.06`	`Cide`	`in an environment where nothing else changed, losing frostbite would hurt`
`21:26.21`	`cbreak`	`it hurts control`
`21:26.34`	`cbreak`	`an arcane mage can get the same type of slow as a frost mage`
`21:26.37`	`Cide`	`maybe frost has a slightly newer direction`
`21:26.44`	`Cide`	`or they introduced it in another way`
`21:26.52`	`cbreak`	`not sure`
`21:26.58`	`cbreak`	`I haven't noticed new control capabilities`
`21:27.10`	`Cide`	`I don't follow mage changes but you can't point at a specific thing and say that the tree sucks now becuase of it`
`21:27.24`	`cbreak`	`I don't say the trees suck`
`21:27.31`	`cbreak`	`my mage on cata is rather powerful`
`21:27.37`	`Cide`	`you say they're worse`
`21:27.41`	`cbreak`	`(at least in arcane, frost I didn't test much)`
`21:27.44`	`cbreak`	`I say they are more boring`
`21:28.13`	`cbreak`	`I have not really casted many off-school spells, but in cata, that will be even less tempting`
`21:28.25`	`cbreak`	`well... actually I do`
`21:28.33`	`cbreak`	`but those will be removed in cata`
`21:28.46`	`Cide`	`I don't think they want you to cast that many off-school spells in the sense of damage dealing spells`
`21:28.48`	`Cide`	`there's really no point`
`21:28.53`	`cbreak`	`I just feel that my two favorite trees become much more similar`
`21:28.56`	`Cide`	`with the exception of frostbolt possibly`
`21:28.58`	`cbreak`	`that reduces variety`
`21:29.02`	`Cide`	`no it doesn't`
`21:29.10`	`Cide`	`there was no point previously either besides possibly frostbolt`
`21:29.25`	`cbreak`	`icy veins`
`21:29.32`	`Adys`	`Cide`
`21:29.33`	`Adys`	`http://www.lelombrik.net/videos/33725/une-croisiere.html`
`21:29.35`	`Cide`	`well yeah, that's a utility spell`
`21:29.41`	`cbreak`	`yeah. removed :(`
`21:29.46`	`cbreak`	`(out of reach for arcane)`
`21:29.52`	`Cide`	`which is by design`
`21:29.58`	`cbreak`	`exactly.`
`21:29.58`	`Cide`	`but you can argue about the design, /shrug`
`21:30.05`	`cbreak`	`isn't that what we do?`
`21:30.10`	`cbreak`	`arguing about the new design?`
`21:30.12`	`Cide`	`yeah`
`21:30.30`	`Cide`	`but it's so subjective`
`21:30.37`	`cbreak`	`but you must have to admit: arcane gains control`
`21:30.51`	`Amarande`	`sooo. at what level do you have 31 talent points and then can start on your secondary tree?`
`21:30.53`	`Cide`	`I have barely looked at arcane`
`21:30.57`	`Amarande`	`I've heard they're not giving a point every level now`
`21:31.23`	`cbreak`	`Amarande: correct. I don't know the exact amount though.`
`21:31.32`	`Cide`	`every other level on average more or less`
`21:31.32`	`Amarande`	`no icy veins for arcane ... hmm`
`21:31.34`	`cbreak`	`it's not constant`
`21:31.36`	`Amarande`	`are they making frost more raid viable, too?`
`21:31.42`	`cbreak`	`no idea`
`21:31.44`	`Amarande`	`right now, people often get laughed at if they raid frost`
`21:32.06`	`cbreak`	`frost can not compete damage wise on raid bosses`
`21:32.08`	`Amarande`	`it's like raiding as a 2H frost DK (unless that 2H happens to be shadowmourne, and that's just because shadowmourne is so powerful that it covers up your sins)`
`21:32.24`	`cbreak`	`it can be very nice on aoe trash`
`21:32.49`	`cbreak`	`at least if you have nibelung, the val'kyr spawning staff (my best was I think 9 valks at the same time)`
`21:32.56`	`Amarande`	`is Cata more likely to have more strategic-based raid battles (like ... ones like blood princes or deathwhisper or sindy)`
`21:33.04`	`Amarande`	`or more likely to have more omg omg dps race types?`
`21:33.13`	`cbreak`	`how are those strategic based?`
`21:33.30`	`cbreak`	`especially deathwhisper is a gimmick fight`
`21:33.32`	`Amarande`	`cbreak: I mean, ones where it's more about what to do when than omg pewpew faster pure race types`
`21:33.42`	`foxlit`	`Um.`
`21:33.45`	`foxlit`	`Both are required.`
`21:34.06`	`Amarande`	`actually, are there ANY pure dps races in ICC besides maybe Festergut?`
`21:34.11`	`Cide`	`Adys: nice`
`21:34.19`	`Amarande`	`Lana'thel maybe, but that's probably more qualified as a gimmick battle`
`21:34.26`	`cbreak`	`the fourth`
`21:34.39`	`Amarande`	`granted the gimmick is so you can win the dps race, but if you get the gimmick right the race is not nearly so major`
`21:34.42`	`cbreak`	`well, for me, all fights are pure dps`
`21:34.47`	`cbreak`	`since I am a dps class`
`21:34.52`	`Amarande`	`ahh right, saurfang`
`21:35.09`	`Amarande`	`since I've only fought him on normal, I've always really only known him as a "you have to manage the blood beasts properly" as the strategic crux`
`21:35.12`	`cbreak`	`and all misc jobs fall under "don't die to stupid stuff"`
`21:35.24`	`Amarande`	`although, granted, I main MDPS`
`21:35.32`	`cbreak`	`I've not done him on hard either I think`
`21:35.35`	`Amarande`	`which means all I do is stand there and wail on saurfang while the rest of the party handles bloodbeasts :S`
`21:35.47`	`cbreak`	`bloodbeasts are pure dps too`
`21:35.59`	`Amarande`	`yeah, but bloodbeasts are normally RDPS's problem`
`21:36.05`	`Amarande`	`you really don't want to melee bloodbeasts unless you really have to`
`21:36.13`	`cbreak`	`oh yes...`
`21:36.23`	`cbreak`	`I yell at noobish melee that manage to get agro of them...`
`21:36.34`	`cbreak`	`mainly tanks that do though...`
`21:36.37`	`Amarande`	`however, I guess the thing I'm getting at is`
`21:36.48`	`Amarande`	`are there currently boss battles where you will fail because your mage went frost instead of arcane or FFB`
`21:36.56`	`Amarande`	`and will there be in cata?`
`21:37.11`	`cbreak`	`all fights with dps requirements`
`21:37.16`	`cbreak`	`deathwhisper, professor, ...`
`21:37.22`	`cbreak`	`but of course, you can always compensate`
`21:37.30`	`Amarande`	`yeah, it occurs to me that if you're failing and your mage is frost`
`21:37.31`	`cbreak`	`with gear, with there being a 30% buff, ...`
`21:37.36`	`Amarande`	`it's probably your raid in general that's not so good`
`21:37.47`	`Amarande`	`what's the % drop in DPS currently going frost vs. arcane or FFB?`
`21:37.54`	`cbreak`	`don't know`
`21:38.07`	`cbreak`	`I think I did 50% more dps as arcane than frost or so`
`21:38.10`	`cbreak`	`less than 50%`
`21:38.15`	`cbreak`	`more than 25%`
`21:38.24`	`Amarande`	`back in the days when I was thinking of actually getting a mage leveled to 80 in LK`
`21:38.25`	`cbreak`	`but that was many many months ago`
`21:38.29`	`Amarande`	`I was planning on going FFB, anyway`
`21:38.44`	`cbreak`	`I am proud of never having had a fire spec in my whole life`
`21:38.53`	`Amarande`	`KILL IT WITH FIRE`
`21:39.00`	`Amarande`	`actually, FFB is probably even better now than ever`
`21:39.09`	`Amarande`	`FFB could actually cause raid wipes in some cases in past raids`
`21:39.20`	`Amarande`	`particularly against Freya, apparently`
`21:39.22`	`cbreak`	`I can do that with arcane too...`
`21:39.40`	`Amarande`	`cbreak: there were apparently specific cases where the specific speccing and glyphing for FFB could put the raid in danger`
`21:39.46`	`Amarande`	`Freya, like I said, comes to mind the most`
`21:40.08`	`cbreak`	`I heard that rogues specing engineering can get the raid banned on the lich king`
`21:40.17`	`cbreak`	`never heard anything about fire mages though`
`21:40.54`	`Amarande`	`what's the rogue engineering problem with LK?`
`21:41.15`	`Amarande`	`it's actually not fire that's the problem on Freya ... it's the frost component of frostfire, and the fact that FFB cookie cutter spec includes extra snaring for frost damage`
`21:41.24`	`Amarande`	`Apparently, if you snare the lasher add, you can wipe the raid`
`21:41.49`	`cbreak`	`hmm.`
`21:41.53`	`Amarande`	`because that's the one with the stacking damage buff that has to be kited, and if you snare it, it won't be kitable anymore and will mash the melee to powder`
`21:42.04`	`cbreak`	`I don't remember that being a problem. we had our tank slow that lasher add`
`21:42.26`	`cbreak`	`so slowing it sounds more like a requirement than a threat`
`21:42.29`	`Amarande`	`I think it may be because FFB spec might actually freeze it`
`21:42.35`	`Amarande`	`slowing it is fine ... freezing it will kill the melee`
`21:42.47`	`cbreak`	`oh, you mean melee dps?`
`21:42.50`	`Amarande`	`because then it registers the tank as "I can't get there" and attacks the melee DPS`
`21:42.53`	`cbreak`	`it's fine if they die`
`21:42.58`	`Amarande`	`and at that point the damage buff is stacked so high that it will one shot anything near it`
`21:43.01`	`cbreak`	`they should not hit it in the first place`
`21:43.38`	`Amarande`	`but yeah, what's wrong with rogues with eng on LK?`
`21:43.52`	`kd3`	`nothing -- since they fixed the exploit`
`21:43.53`	`cbreak`	`they get your raid banned`
`21:44.04`	`cbreak`	`I don't know the specifics, but... be careful`
`21:44.10`	`Amarande`	`you mean as in 72 hour vacation, not just wiped? wow.`
`21:44.17`	`cbreak`	`yes`
`21:44.27`	`Amarande`	`and I'm assuming a revocation of any gear you got from LK`
`21:44.31`	`zenzelezz`	`siege damage used to repair the platform`
`21:44.40`	`cbreak`	`as in "your raid will not raid in the next few days, your loot will get confiscated, and your achievents will be removed"`
`21:44.42`	`Amarande`	`which could be almost unrecoverable if people sold their old weapons`
`21:45.01`	`Amarande`	`seeing as LK only drops weapons, and you can't GET weapons beyond 232 except Quel'delar and from raiding`
`21:45.12`	`cbreak`	`was a very dumb decision by blizz`
`21:45.22`	`cbreak`	`why would you sell your old weapon?`
`21:45.30`	`cbreak`	`I keep two or three tiers of gear with me all the time`
`21:45.33`	`Amarande`	`cbreak: because you have no use for it anymore after the upgrade from LK :)`
`21:45.40`	`cbreak`	`just in case I need to replace broken items`
`21:45.44`	`Amarande`	`just like, why would I keep black icicle around now that I have a heroic frost giant's cleaver`
`21:46.01`	`Amarande`	`cbreak: except where do you EVER have a time in ICC where you're far from repairs?`
`21:46.04`	`zenzelezz`	`I always keep old stuff for a while in case I get other new gear that don't go well with various pieces`
`21:46.08`	`cbreak`	`Amarande: I went to the new island in front of stormwind today with my mage`
`21:46.08`	`zenzelezz`	`so I can balance stats`
`21:46.09`	`*** join/#wowuidev sylvanaar (~sylvanaar@unaffiliated/sylvanaar)`
`21:46.09`	`Amarande`	`the teleporters back to the start are all over the place`
`21:46.15`	`zenzelezz`	`or I used to, while stats mattered`
`21:46.21`	`cbreak`	`I almost drowned, if I had not had the gnomeregan hydro cane with me`
`21:46.29`	`Amarande`	`cbreak: well yeah, that's something special though`
`21:46.31`	`cbreak`	`keeping things around is a good thing!`
`21:46.35`	`Amarande`	`generic DPS weapons, you tend to sell off after you get an upgrade :)`
`21:46.50`	`cbreak`	`I have like 30 robes in my bank. and 16 staves`
`21:47.03`	`cbreak`	`many hats...`
`21:47.06`	`cbreak`	`some swords...`
`21:47.13`	`cbreak`	`every sold item hurts...`
`21:47.44`	`*** join/#wowuidev p3lim (~p3lim@200.41.202.84.customer.cdi.no)`
`21:47.52`	`cbreak`	`and the repair stuff... old habbit.`
`21:48.22`	`Amarande`	`I wonder if Blizzard is so fascist about some things in WoW because of what happened with Diablo 2, though`
`21:48.32`	`Amarande`	`I have to imagine ... if Blizzard hadn't been Blizzard, but a smaller company`
`21:48.43`	`Amarande`	`the security and cheating issues in D2 probably would have ended their career as an online gaming company wouldn't it :\|`
`21:48.47`	`cbreak`	`blizz isn't bad as it is now.`
`21:49.04`	`Corrodias`	`it isn't as bad as it is?`
`21:49.05`	`cbreak`	`they are far from perfect, but I don't know any better game company`
`21:49.14`	`*** join/#wowuidev solocommand (~josh@adsl-68-72-44-227.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net)`
`21:49.19`	`Amarande`	`did they only survive all the battle.net cheating issues in the Diablos because they were Blizzard and had the Blizzard name?`
`21:49.24`	`cbreak`	`they were better a few years ago`
`21:49.46`	`Amarande`	`actually I wouldn't be surprised if a smaller company would have died`
`21:50.00`	`Amarande`	`smaller companies often have to pay for datacenter bandwidth, and seeing as ... well ...`
`21:50.01`	`Fisker`	`i will kill you Amarande :(`
`21:50.09`	`Corrodias`	`i could think of a few companies that are less restrictive about third party content and authentication`
`21:50.13`	`Amarande`	`I don't know EXACTLY how they duped items, but I do know it involved DoS attacks on the servers`
`21:50.15`	`Corrodias`	`Valve is a prime example`
`21:50.23`	`cbreak`	`blizz uses p2p tech to reduce their bandwidth`
`21:50.25`	`Amarande`	`which would have probably brought a smaller company with metered bandwidth to its knees well before 1.09, even`
`21:50.53`	`cbreak`	`I duped items in diablo by dropping them on the floor`
`21:50.58`	`cbreak`	`and running around`
`21:51.07`	`Amarande`	`cbreak: yeah, Diablo had basically NO security though`
`21:51.08`	`cbreak`	`but that was... 10 years ago or so`
`21:51.14`	`cbreak`	`or more...`
`21:51.14`	`Amarande`	`Diablo 1 was basically Open Battle.net at all times`
`21:51.20`	`Ressy`	`grr.. Blizz messed up. Didn't put in checks for a quest requiring others to be completed first. Now I can't complete the starting area of twilight highlands.`
`21:51.38`	`Corrodias`	`how is it that you can develop a game/map with the SC2 editor if you can't play locally?`
`21:51.39`	`Amarande`	`Ressy: can't get a quest you need?`
`21:51.43`	`Amarande`	`that's odd.`
`21:51.47`	`Amarande`	`not that blizzard hasn't done it before`
`21:51.48`	`Ressy`	`Can't complete one.`
`21:51.58`	`Amarande`	`for some reason, which I'm NOT at all sure why that happens`
`21:52.13`	`Ressy`	`As soon as I finished Aiming High (completed, not handed in), i got phased, and I can't kill horde attackers in highbank now.`
`21:52.14`	`Amarande`	`but if you are horde, and do certain quests in searing gorge, you can't get a gnomeregan transponder anymore`
`21:52.20`	`foxlit`	`Corrodias: you can play locally, iirc`
`21:52.25`	`Ressy`	`and I can't hand it in cuz the quest giver is in the other phase.`
`21:52.33`	`Amarande`	`Ressy: ugh.`
`21:52.40`	`Amarande`	`I'm actually surprised Icecrown zone isn't full of buggeredness like that`
`21:52.41`	`cbreak`	`report it :)`
`21:52.44`	`cbreak`	`it is beta`
`21:52.46`	`Ressy`	`I did.`
`21:52.50`	`cbreak`	`excellent`
`21:52.51`	`Corrodias`	`what was all the hubbub i heard about HAVING to use the blizzard hosting service to share games? can't play a multiplayer game with local content, maybe?`
`21:53.00`	`foxlit`	`Corrodias: more or less.`
`21:53.03`	`Ressy`	`I'm trying now to figure out howwwwwww to unphase myself to keep going through the quests.`
`21:53.11`	`Corrodias`	`okay, that would explain it`
`21:53.17`	`Ressy`	`I'm lucky I picked up everything before completing that.`
`21:53.28`	`cbreak`	`can't you abandon the quest?`
`21:53.35`	`Corrodias`	`so yes, Valve and Bioware/EA serve as fine examples of "better than blizzard"`
`21:54.07`	`Cide`	`if by better you don't mean game quality?`
`21:54.09`	`foxlit`	`/hate Colon 456`
`21:54.09`	`cbreak`	`both of those suck in the "support mac os" department`
`21:54.15`	`foxlit`	`s/on/ony/`
`21:54.19`	`cbreak`	`which is important to me :)`
`21:54.20`	`Cide`	`valve now supports mac`
`21:54.20`	`Corrodias`	`i mean ethically`
`21:54.24`	`cbreak`	`I know`
`21:54.34`	`cbreak`	`portal is great`
`21:54.39`	`cbreak`	`but steam is... weird`
`21:54.43`	`Corrodias`	`i mean in the "let you use player mods, don't require you to authenticate to play multiplayer" way.`
`21:54.48`	`Cide`	`steam is.. awesome`
`21:54.49`	`cbreak`	`it stores gigabytes of random data into my documents folder`
`21:55.00`	`Corrodias`	`on a mac?`
`21:55.02`	`Cide`	`I'm sure it's not random`
`21:55.04`	`cbreak`	`yeah`
`21:55.09`	`cbreak`	`it's the games`
`21:55.16`	`Ressy`	`woot. ty`
`21:55.23`	`Corrodias`	`weird place for it to go`
`21:55.23`	`Ressy`	`Dropping the quest unphased me.`
`21:57.19`	`cbreak`	`Corrodias: hmm, seems it goes into ~/Library/Application Support/Steam. which is not totally dumb, but at least partially dump.`
`21:58.04`	`Corrodias`	`indeed, anywhere near your home folder is a little strange, unless you don't typically have file permissions to write to the installation directory on a mac`
`21:58.27`	`cbreak`	`only admins have write rights to that...`
`21:58.31`	`Amarande`	`Corrodias: Macs use a UNIX paradigm, so yeah, you don't have write rights to that`
`21:58.31`	`cbreak`	`same as on windows`
`21:58.32`	`Corrodias`	`of course, even windows users bump into that sometimes these days, with "program files" having some limited access`
`21:59.06`	`cbreak`	`the correct way would be to ask the user where to store them, and ask for admin credentials if required`
`21:59.21`	`cbreak`	`or at least to install them into a shared location`
`21:59.37`	`cbreak`	`as it is now, every steam program has to be downloaded several times for different people`
`21:59.55`	`cbreak`	`or you have to make a different user account for steam, which all use to play with`
`22:00.02`	`Corrodias`	`heheh, that could have been designed a bit better.`
`22:00.12`	`cbreak`	`well, not a problem for me since I don't share my hardware, and don't use steam much...`
`22:00.18`	`Corrodias`	`although i will speculate that you can largely alleviate that issue by using symbolic links`
`22:00.19`	`cbreak`	`but it is bad from a design perspective`
`22:00.33`	`Amarande`	`people don't care about good design anymore unfortunately`
`22:00.35`	`cbreak`	`maybe.`
`22:00.38`	`Amarande`	`they just care about security for their precious little asses`
`22:00.41`	`cbreak`	`WoW is quite bad in that area`
`22:00.45`	`cbreak`	`as is SCII`
`22:00.51`	`Corrodias`	`you could probably drop those files in a folder accessible to all users and put symlinks in everybody's directories pointing to that`
`22:00.59`	`cbreak`	`but at least it can be fixed by just installing it somewhere else, such as /Users/Shared/`
`22:01.08`	`Corrodias`	`i've done that on windows for a few programs that try to put their files in paths i don't like`
`22:01.13`	`Amarande`	`it's as if the good guys have decided it's best to take fewer and fewer steps towards advancing good stuff`
`22:01.19`	`Amarande`	`and instead use those steps towards better blocking malice`
`22:01.20`	`cbreak`	`windows has symlinks?`
`22:01.29`	`Amarande`	`c'mon, evil can't possibly be stronger than good, can it?`
`22:01.29`	`Cide`	`sure`
`22:01.29`	`nebula`	`they're called junctions`
`22:01.31`	`Corrodias`	`since vista, it fully supports them`
`22:01.38`	`cbreak`	`aren't junctions hard links?`
`22:01.41`	`Amarande`	`it's a definition of a duality that each half is equal and opposed :)`
`22:01.44`	`Corrodias`	`i believe you have both hard links and symbolic ones`
`22:01.46`	`Cide`	`stop being so stupid, Amarande`
`22:02.02`	`Corrodias`	`i would have to go refresh myself on how to use them`
`22:02.04`	`nebula`	`yar, can be either`
`22:02.05`	`Cide`	`just because you disagree with what the software developer does doesn't make it bad`
`22:02.17`	`Cide`	`nor does it make it evil`
`22:02.32`	`foxlit`	`grrr, cannons.`
`22:02.42`	`Amarande`	`Cide: I'm more thinking of the current paradigm of obsessing over security almost to the point of making the actual functionality of the product a secondary concern`
`22:02.42`	`Cide`	`nor is being evil at all in the interest of most game developers`
`22:02.47`	`Amarande`	`which seems to infect a lot of developers lately`
`22:02.50`	`Cide`	`yeah`
`22:02.54`	`Cide`	`just ask linus torvalds`
`22:03.01`	`Amarande`	`THAT is where I'm saying, we need to stop thinking of evil as stronger than good`
`22:03.05`	`Corrodias`	`http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windows-vista/using-symlinks-in-windows-vista/`
`22:03.13`	`Amarande`	`unless I'm missing some other point in my zeal there`
`22:03.26`	`Amarande`	`namely, that the 'good' of such products, is merely fun, and while pleasure IS one of the most important things in the world ...`
`22:03.31`	`cbreak`	`does it matter how strong good and evil are?`
`22:03.39`	`nebula`	`is that just mklink /?`
`22:03.41`	`nebula`	`lol`
`22:03.49`	`Amarande`	`'evil malicious' uses, on the other hand, tend to get used to make money which is used for stuff like kidnapping women and children and blowing our shit up :\|`
`22:03.53`	`Corrodias`	`yes, and then he explains what the options do`
`22:04.03`	`Amarande`	`like every time an anime fan buys a bootleg, they're putting more money in Triad coffers, and we know what they do.`
`22:04.03`	`Cide`	`what product(s) are you talking about anyway Amarande?`
`22:04.18`	`Amarande`	`which, in turn, can be said to be blamed on not enough security on the original product ...`
`22:04.21`	`Corrodias`	`who PAYS for bootlegs? jesus!`
`22:04.36`	`Amarande`	`Cide: it seems to be a general paradigm pollution, really.`
`22:05.11`	`Amarande`	`We stopped concerning ourselves so much with freedom and such and instead obsess over security. Despite the fact that Franklin warned us about that.`
`22:05.17`	`Amarande`	`(or was it Jefferson ... it was one of those two)`
`22:05.31`	`*** join/#wowuidev Thrae (~ircuser@generalmx-1-pt.tunnel.tserv13.ash1.ipv6.he.net)`
`22:05.37`	`Corrodias`	`well, he wouldn't like me much, whoever he was`
`22:05.42`	`Cide`	`I totally disagree`
`22:05.49`	`Corrodias`	`because i don't mind not being able to do some stuff if it means i don't die.`
`22:06.00`	`Cide`	`windows 7 is the best windows version yet by far and one of its core features is improved security`
`22:06.22`	`cbreak`	`who's franklin?`
`22:06.22`	`Cide`	`but it still managed to improve in a ton of other areas`
`22:06.46`	`Corrodias`	`probably benjamin franklin, old dude from some 200-odd years ago`
`22:06.56`	`cbreak`	`oh, the DC morron`
`22:07.15`	`cbreak`	`apparently he fought against AC usage by electrocuting cows`
`22:07.31`	`Corrodias`	`maybe he just did that for fun and the media put their own spin on it`
`22:07.35`	`cbreak`	`what does he have to do with computer security?`
`22:07.37`	`Corrodias`	`i know -i- would. damn cows.`
`22:07.46`	`Cide`	`he doesn't`
`22:08.24`	`cbreak`	`my impression about computer security is: users are too dumb to be trusted with it.`
`22:08.33`	`Corrodias`	`i sure am`
`22:08.36`	`cbreak`	`it's not easy.`
`22:12.39`	`cbreak`	`what I would like to see in WoW are randomized dungeons`
`22:12.52`	`cbreak`	`like in Diablo I guess.`
`22:15.56`	`Arrowmaster`	`diablo or diablo 2?`
`22:16.12`	`Arrowmaster`	`because diablo 2 werent randomized`
`22:16.25`	`cbreak`	`I didn't buy diablo 2`
`22:16.31`	`cbreak`	`I meant 1`
`22:16.33`	`Arrowmaster`	`i didnt play 1`
`22:16.39`	`cbreak`	`I played the demo`
`22:16.42`	`cbreak`	`was great :)`
`22:17.09`	`Corrodias`	`d2's were randomized to an extent`
`22:17.12`	`cbreak`	`it inspired me to learn how to use memory debuggers.`
`22:17.25`	`Corrodias`	`not as much as 1's. you won't find stairs right next to the entrance.`
`22:19.19`	`*** join/#wowuidev ckknight (~ckknight@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/CurseStaff/CurseForge/ckknight)`
`22:19.19`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+o ckknight] by ChanServ`
`22:20.02`	`Fisker`	`diablo 1 was random?`
`22:20.35`	`cbreak`	`yeah`
`22:20.46`	`cbreak`	`the demo only had the first two levels`
`22:21.02`	`cbreak`	`but I could play them again many times, each with a different layout and different monsters/loot`
`22:21.39`	`Corrodias`	`D1 was so random that you could find the exit to the next level right next to the entrance.`
`22:22.17`	`cbreak`	`that's how an architect with brain would do it.`
`22:22.25`	`Corrodias`	`shush, you!`
`22:22.36`	`Corrodias`	`D2 had some constraints on sizes and distances, but the actual arrangement of tiles was determined at generation time.`
`22:23.08`	`Zhinjio`	`question`
`22:23.16`	`Cide`	`no answer`
`22:23.16`	`Zhinjio`	`I'm trying to do the Quel'Delar questline`
`22:23.26`	`Zhinjio`	`I just got Thalorien's blessing`
`22:23.31`	`Zhinjio`	`and now have to enter sunwell plateau`
`22:23.35`	`Zhinjio`	`to do the purification`
`22:23.38`	`Zhinjio`	`but I can't enter`
`22:23.38`	`Arrowmaster`	`d2 was 4 basic layouts that got picked, the only random thing was locations of shrines and such`
`22:23.40`	`Spejnar`	`you can solo it`
`22:23.44`	`Zhinjio`	`and its not giving me any error at all`
`22:23.45`	`Spejnar`	`raid group..`
`22:23.49`	`Zhinjio`	`I'm in a raid group`
`22:23.58`	`Spejnar`	`then you are probably too low in pro-score`
`22:24.09`	`Zhinjio`	`o.O`
`22:24.48`	`Cide`	`Arrowmaster: that's not true of, say, durance of hate level 2`
`22:24.55`	`Cide`	`the area I have most experience with :P`
`22:25.16`	`Zhinjio`	`is this the wrong entrance?`
`22:25.22`	`Zhinjio`	`this is called Shepherd's Gate`
`22:25.35`	`nebula`	`you talk to the npc out side, you don't just zone in`
`22:25.41`	`Zhinjio`	`oh`
`22:25.43`	`Arrowmaster`	`i know the entirity of act2 was just 4 basic layouts, one for each direction`
`22:25.52`	`Zhinjio`	`har`
`22:25.53`	`Zhinjio`	`thanks`
`22:25.58`	`nebula`	`:p`
`22:27.19`	`Arrowmaster`	`i didnt play act3 much but it seemed like just 2 layouts`
`22:27.29`	`Cide`	`I'm talking about the dungeons`
`22:27.35`	`Cide`	`they were a lot more random`
`22:30.41`	`Arrowmaster`	`i think they just had more prebuilt levels for the dungeons`
`22:31.22`	`Cide`	`they must have at least 15 prebuilt levels for durance level 2, if so`
`22:31.42`	`Amarande`	`oh god durance level 2`
`22:31.46`	`Amarande`	`no life at all in the House of Dolls ...`
`22:32.28`	`olafski`	`mm I love Bwonsamdi`
`22:32.43`	`olafski`	`giggled when I saw it on mmo-c and now when I see it ingame +)`
`22:32.49`	`Amarande`	`Undead Stygian Dolls really taught everyone a lesson about how squishy they really were`
`22:32.56`	`Amarande`	`Unless you were a Barb, anyway.`
`22:33.06`	`Amarande`	`I loved my old IK Barb`
`22:33.09`	`olafski`	`and even then`
`22:34.21`	`Amarande`	`ehh, as a Barb, I was able to even deal with tomb viper poison clouds`
`22:34.28`	`Amarande`	`the ones that everyone would just go "omgwtfImdead" on`
`22:34.32`	`Arrowmaster`	`i mostly played the nezimontias mod after 1.10 which made everything a lot harder`
`22:34.36`	`Amarande`	`in fact, I was able to deal with them well enough to actually figure out how they worked`
`22:34.58`	`Amarande`	`the poison itself, contrary to popular belief before then, did not itself have a physical component and could not kill you to itself`
`22:35.16`	`Amarande`	`what it actually was was that every time you moved within the cloud, the poison got refreshed, and every time it was reapplied you got dinged with a physical hit too`
`22:35.29`	`Amarande`	`but most people died too quickly to figure this out`
`22:35.39`	`olafski`	`fascinating +)`
`22:35.40`	`Amarande`	`or didn't do Nihlathak runs to know`
`22:35.49`	`Amarande`	`of course, I had an IK Barb with like 3300 HP with BO active`
`22:35.53`	`olafski`	`I usually skipped nihlathak`
`22:35.58`	`olafski`	`no fun that guy on hardcore`
`22:36.04`	`Amarande`	`I was mostly looking for destruction keys to trade`
`22:36.26`	`Cide`	`meh`
`22:36.29`	`Cide`	`nihlathak was easy`
`22:36.35`	`Cide`	`just grab nature's peace and be on your way`
`22:37.24`	`olafski`	`just grabbing a random drop might be difficult`
`22:37.36`	`olafski`	`considering I didn't trade with other people`
`22:37.45`	`Fisker`	`double robos Cide`
`22:38.14`	`Cide`	`why?`
`22:38.16`	`Cide`	`mass colossi?`
`22:38.21`	`olafski`	`I can see how that item might help though =)`
`22:38.35`	`Cide`	`it made nihlathak cake`
`22:38.46`	`olafski`	`yeah his corpse explosion is the annoying part iirc`
`22:39.41`	`olafski`	`and on the durance thing, I think it wasn't prebuilt levels at all.. at least I hardly ever saw one that seemed familiar`
`22:39.45`	`olafski`	`only did about 50 runs a day though`
`22:40.03`	`Cide`	`yeah, same`
`22:41.34`	`nebula`	`if you're talking about meph runs, wasn't the stairs to lv3 always in one of two places on the map?`
`22:42.31`	`olafski`	`not as far as I remember it`
`22:42.37`	`Sixen`	`Oh wow, Diablo talk.`
`22:42.39`	`olafski`	`unless you mean "top or bottom" :P`
`22:43.30`	`Cide`	`no, nebula`
`22:44.07`	`nebula`	`i suppose in hell the area was quite a bit larger`
`22:44.14`	`Cide`	`it was a bit less random with regards to stairs placement earlier`
`22:44.19`	`Cide`	`but then they patched it to make the runs less profitable`
`22:44.23`	`nebula`	`ah`
`22:44.25`	`*** join/#wowuidev tekkub (~tekkub@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Dongle/GitHub/Tekkub)`
`22:44.25`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+v tekkub] by ChanServ`
`22:45.06`	`olafski`	`the size of the dungeon changes with difficulty? oO`
`22:46.06`	`nebula`	`normal/nightmare the area was typically tiny, hell was more full sized`
`22:46.16`	`nebula`	`i'm pulling memories out of the air from like forever ago, lol`
`22:48.12`	`olafski`	`me too so you might be right.. but I don't remember that`
`22:53.18`	`foxlit`	`Could never be bothered to actually get to hell difficulty`
`22:53.28`	`foxlit`	`Too much time spent replaying the same content :(`
`22:53.41`	`foxlit`	`... that was clearly before they invented WoW.`
`22:56.34`	`Sixen`	`It was also 10 years ago`
`23:06.25`	`Zhinjio`	`whats the cata TOC #? 40000?`
`23:06.29`	`Zhinjio`	`40100?`
`23:06.49`	`nevcairiel`	`40100 would be 4.1`
`23:06.52`	`kd3`	`40000`
`23:06.59`	`foxlit`	`You know, that question stopped being interesting around 1.8 :)`
`23:06.59`	`nevcairiel`	`the system is so easy :p`
`23:07.02`	`Zhinjio`	`yeah, my client is 4.0.1.12942`
`23:07.09`	`Zhinjio`	`ah`
`23:07.10`	`Zhinjio`	`right`
`23:07.10`	`nevcairiel`	`4.1 vs 4.0.1`
`23:07.10`	`Zhinjio`	`heh`
`23:07.11`	`nevcairiel`	`:d`
`23:07.11`	`kd3`	`4.1.0, not 4.0.1`
`23:07.12`	`Zhinjio`	`thanks`
`23:07.22`	`Zhinjio`	`yeah, just being braindead, nm`
`23:11.11`	`Ackis`	`wow yer all a bunch of meanies!`
`23:11.23`	`Zhinjio`	`Hey Ackis`
`23:11.32`	`cbreak`	`anyone else in here noticed problems starting starcraft 2 on a mac with uptime of 25 days or more?`
`23:11.36`	`Zhinjio`	`and this is a startling revelation how?`
`23:11.50`	`Ackis`	`hey Zhinjio`
`23:14.52`	`Amarande`	`bah, HoR group fell apart after marwyn`
`23:14.56`	`Amarande`	`tank claimed to have a guild event to be at`
`23:15.04`	`Amarande`	`translation: "my item didn't drop so screw you guys"`
`23:15.09`	`Zhinjio`	`huh. yeah`
`23:15.17`	`Zhinjio`	`thats the hard part anyway`
`23:15.26`	`Zhinjio`	`the rest is easysauce`
`23:16.14`	`cbreak`	`Amarande: depends. did he say it before the group started or after wards?`
`23:20.18`	*** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (~funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh)
`23:24.11`	`Amarande`	`cbreak: after Marwyn`
`23:24.37`	`Amarande`	`he bailed, then the healer bailed, then one of the DPS bailed, then the other DPS and I had a long conversation about gaming in general and Guild Wars and PvP gearing before we gave up on waiting for replacements and logged`
`23:25.17`	`Iriel`	`cbreak: I shut my mac down at night, so can't say I have`
`23:25.25`	`*** join/#wowuidev Cairenn (~Guest9566@MMOI/Administratrix/Cairenn)`
`23:25.25`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+o Cairenn] by ChanServ`
`23:25.54`	`Amarande`	`Evening Cairenn :)`
`23:29.11`	`*** join/#wowuidev \|stefan_\| (~stefan@80.245.231.105)`
`23:30.11`	`Amarande`	`yay, general gaming/raiding/etc. background soundtrack set up.`
`23:30.57`	`Amarande`	`http://www.lunasanguine.com/images/itunes2.jpg`
`23:32.01`	`Cairenn`	`hi`
`23:33.03`	`*** join/#wowuidev bluspacecow (~bluspacec@60-234-165-167.bitstream.orcon.net.nz)`
`23:33.16`	`bluspacecow`	`http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=26725726055&sid=1`
`23:33.20`	`bluspacecow`	`fail logic is fail`
`23:36.38`	`Amarande`	`ok ... 25 more minutes till sindy`
`23:39.49`	`Amarande`	`wow since when did itunes show the playlist shuffle order when you first hit play after turning on shuffle?`
`23:41.03`	`Amarande`	`also ... no shaman and no hunter, wonder what our chances at LK are going to be like`
`23:41.43`	`A-KO`	`http://www.break.com/index/farmer-bales-himself-in-hay.html`
`23:42.10`	`Amarande`	`Oh wow. was perusing the calender`
`23:42.20`	`Amarande`	`I see Blizzard finally came to their senses about Love is in the Air`
`23:43.25`	`A-KO`	`what about it?`
`23:43.42`	`Amarande`	`it's actually reasonably long next year`
`23:45.18`	`Amarande`	`not three days or whatever it was last time`
`23:45.36`	`Amarande`	`one year I actually wasn't even home for the WHOLE EVENT heh`
`23:47.44`	`Cide`	`my god`
`23:47.49`	`Cide`	`not doing something in a game?`
`23:47.55`	`Cide`	`that's twisted!`
`23:48.01`	*** part/#wowuidev Iso` (~Iso@gw-apb.efrei.fr)
`23:49.53`	`foxlit`	`Hrm, evil`
`23:50.06`	`Amarande`	`Cide: I believe it was the first year the love fool title was available`
`23:50.20`	`Amarande`	`I was away from February 13-18, which was pretty much exactly when the whole love is in the air event was :P`
`23:50.25`	`foxlit`	`So I got "You were dropped" in the first five seconds of a coop game. I cannot see the loss on my match history, but it reset the win streak achievement :/`
`23:50.49`	`Amarande`	`foxlit: wonder if that means win streak achievements are going to be mega hard to get then`
`23:50.56`	`Amarande`	`as douchey 12 year olds dump people from the game who win too much`
`23:50.57`	`cbreak`	`foxlit: it might only appear after your partner loses too`
`23:51.14`	`foxlit`	`cbreak: judging by the achievement reset, I'd say he lost.`
`23:52.06`	`cbreak`	`I mean, I disconnected during a match`
`23:52.16`	`cbreak`	`... it was all blizzard's fault`
`23:52.27`	`cbreak`	`after logging back in, I could nto join the game again`
`23:52.33`	`cbreak`	`but my partner was still in it`
`23:52.40`	`cbreak`	`nothing was in the match history`
`23:52.41`	`foxlit`	`But without having it in match history, I'll never know what happened.`
`23:52.44`	`cbreak`	`but it did appear some time later`
`23:52.51`	`cbreak`	`just ask your partner`
`23:52.59`	`foxlit`	`cbreak: dunno who it was`
`23:53.04`	`cbreak`	`oh, random`
`23:53.45`	`foxlit`	`But yes, the inability to re-enter games from which you were disconnected is kind of lame.`
`23:57.03`	`foxlit`	`meh, wow forums are no fun`
`23:57.21`	`foxlit`	`"But mommy, why can those newbies get my honor system title too?"`

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