| 00:00.03 | *** join/#wowuidev soufron (~soufron@vol75-1-81-57-79-123.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 00:00.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Caleb| (~caleb@dsl4E5C071E.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 00:00.11 | Fisker | Wobin |
| 00:00.11 | Fisker | http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=13705342454&postId=137042698351&sid=1#2 |
| 00:00.13 | Fisker | did i win? |
| 00:03.28 | Iriel | WoW, that person's seriously maladjusted |
| 00:03.45 | *** join/#wowuidev theorb (~theorb@91.84.53.6) |
| 00:04.14 | Iriel | I wonder if they were touched inappropriately as a child by a faction change? |
| 00:05.00 | Cide | likely |
| 00:06.41 | Iriel | I can't entirely follow the anti-achievement/GS rant --- I think GS is pretty retarded myself, but the achievement part is odd; It's something like "I want to associate with people who only want to associate with those who have done X, but I dont like that they can tell I haven't done X" ? |
| 00:07.24 | Cide | advertising on TV by Blizzard wanting new people to start playing WoW. Yet again another incident of Blizzard being 'all about the money |
| 00:07.32 | Wobin | well |
| 00:07.33 | Cide | how dare they advertise their product! |
| 00:07.37 | Wobin | Blizzard -is- all about the money |
| 00:07.50 | Cide | nah, I think that's stretching it |
| 00:07.51 | Iriel | That's sort of the point, and it works to our advantage |
| 00:07.53 | Wobin | The fact they have a pretty decent game for it, is just frosting =) |
| 00:08.00 | Iriel | If the game sucks, then we wouldn't give them money |
| 00:08.05 | Cide | aye |
| 00:08.10 | durcyn | Wobin: i prefer to blame vivendi and activision for that, personally |
| 00:08.18 | Wobin | Eh, Blizzard know their market |
| 00:08.21 | Cide | but I don't think all the decisions they make are in the mindset of maximizing their profit |
| 00:08.24 | Wobin | The sparkle ponies prove it |
| 00:08.24 | Iriel | What's wrong with advertising? |
| 00:08.27 | Iriel | New blood is good |
| 00:08.32 | Cide | agreed |
| 00:08.37 | Cide | (I was quoting the post, btw) |
| 00:08.52 | Cide | missed out on the "-s |
| 00:09.07 | Iriel | I bought a sparkle pony, does it make me bad? |
| 00:09.58 | Cide | it just makes you a sparkle pony-fan |
| 00:10.36 | Iriel | My draenai love it |
| 00:10.46 | Iriel | I dislike the elekk |
| 00:18.14 | Wobin | I'd've preferred if the sparkle pony was a convertible |
| 00:18.27 | Wobin | ie, the wings aren't shown unless it's actually flying |
| 00:18.49 | Fisker | Iriel |
| 00:18.56 | Fisker | did you happen to bet on duke? |
| 00:19.20 | Iriel | No, i'm not sure why I would, I dont really "do" sports. |
| 00:19.38 | Fisker | I also like how he says that achievements ruined the game |
| 00:19.44 | Fisker | for new people |
| 00:19.48 | Corrodias2 | Iriel: does it make you bad? i don't know. i'm not fit for moral judgements. but does it encourage them to add more "cool stuff" to the game that you can't get except by paying more money? |
| 00:19.55 | Fisker | and at the same time make the claim that they only care about the new people |
| 00:20.01 | Wobin | my god =P Achievements are the only thing that kept this game alive =P |
| 00:20.10 | Fisker | So if new people don't like the game because of being asked for achievements, then uh? |
| 00:20.20 | Wobin | ahaha |
| 00:20.20 | Iriel | Corrodias2: I'll be mad if they add 'cool stuff' you can only get the FUNCTIONALITY OF by pay, and not through in-game means |
| 00:20.28 | Wobin | he doesn't quite understand achievements, I see |
| 00:20.57 | Corrodias2 | Iriel: problem is, in WoW, individualizing your character is a big part of the game for most people. |
| 00:20.58 | Wobin | as evidenced by the thousands of "Congratulations, you completed the introductory cut scene!" achievements for every single game out there =P |
| 00:21.04 | Fisker | anyway if people are dumb enough to pay for faction changes several times a week, then i guess that's their problem :P |
| 00:21.18 | Iriel | Right, so a sparklepony is a good example of something that likely wouldn't appeal to MOST 'individualizers' |
| 00:21.19 | Corrodias2 | otherwise who would ever bother to do the grinding quests to get X mount? |
| 00:21.24 | Iriel | Since everyone has one |
| 00:21.27 | Fisker | Read earlier today about someone who did 4xvoa in a week |
| 00:21.46 | Wobin | don't you get locked? |
| 00:21.49 | Fisker | you do |
| 00:21.54 | Iriel | Yes, you do |
| 00:21.55 | Fisker | But faction changes reset it |
| 00:21.56 | Wobin | oh on different characters? |
| 00:21.58 | Wobin | oh |
| 00:21.58 | Corrodias2 | color me surprised that -so many- people are so desperate to get every little thing in the game that they've bought that thing. |
| 00:21.59 | Wobin | ... |
| 00:22.01 | Wobin | riiight |
| 00:22.10 | Wobin | (why?) |
| 00:22.24 | Fisker | probably because they haven't found a clean way of transferring the ID yet |
| 00:22.34 | Fisker | and can't be bothered to find one either :P |
| 00:22.38 | Iriel | I bought it mostly because I hate elekks, and secondly because it's useful to not have to buy a flying mount right away |
| 00:22.41 | Wobin | eh, they should just retain it =) |
| 00:22.45 | Iriel | and yes, because i'm a compulsive accumulator |
| 00:22.54 | Fisker | Wobin then you'd join an alliance instance |
| 00:22.58 | Wobin | no why did he want to do voa4x? |
| 00:23.04 | Fisker | or horde whatever your faction was before |
| 00:23.13 | Corrodias2 | Iriel: did you just say it's "useful"? |
| 00:23.18 | Fisker | well if he faction changed he might as well do it? :P |
| 00:23.23 | Corrodias2 | that kind of smells like functionality to me. :( |
| 00:23.35 | Iriel | Corrodias2: yes, but it's not functionality I couldn't get in-game, I just chose not to |
| 00:23.38 | Wobin | Fisker, oh, I thought he factionchanged so he -could- do voa four times |
| 00:24.21 | Iriel | Corrodias2: Now, suppose getting a flying mount required a massive arduous quest line, that would take hours to complete. THEN i'd have a problem with sparklepony |
| 00:24.34 | Fisker | well who knows? |
| 00:24.43 | Fisker | That's what i'm saying |
| 00:24.48 | Fisker | If Blizzard scored 50⬠on that |
| 00:24.53 | Fisker | then you go girl |
| 00:24.54 | Corrodias2 | as i recall, what it -does- require is gold. |
| 00:25.00 | Wobin | ugh http://screencast.com/t/NzY1OTE3N way to go Twitter on failing to understand unique slang =P |
| 00:25.11 | Iriel | Right, gold isn't that hard to come by, it's a minor time investment |
| 00:25.19 | Wobin | -Thank you- for that definition, I'd've never have guessed!! |
| 00:25.31 | Corrodias2 | it's only a LITTLE real money trading for valuable goods |
| 00:26.09 | Corrodias2 | for the record, the horse doesn't bother me. the fact that blizzard has leapt gleefully upon the slippery slope kind of does. |
| 00:26.26 | Wobin | Corrodias2, they leapt upon it ages ago |
| 00:26.35 | Wobin | with the LittleKT/panda |
| 00:26.38 | Iriel | I'll reserve condemnation until they descend down the slope, rather than staying up in the safe area |
| 00:26.44 | *** join/#wowuidev robokitty (~robotusch@50A2E67F.flatrate.dk) |
| 00:26.57 | Corrodias2 | the "collector edition"? |
| 00:27.07 | Iriel | That's tradition |
| 00:27.17 | Wobin | eh, they were on that slope the minute they started charging for server transfers =P |
| 00:30.31 | Fisker | the only thing that really worries me is the remote AH |
| 00:30.40 | Fisker | but only because it can be abused by Antiarcs as much as it can |
| 00:31.35 | Iriel | The boffomfeeder problem doesn't appear to have been addressed |
| 00:31.41 | Iriel | Bottomfeeder, even |
| 00:31.50 | Corrodias2 | what's that? |
| 00:32.04 | Iriel | It was a short-lived auctioneer feature |
| 00:32.25 | Iriel | automatically scanned for and bought items below market value |
| 00:34.03 | Corrodias2 | what is the problem? |
| 00:35.36 | Iriel | Automation? |
| 00:36.19 | Corrodias2 | is that a problem? i mean, it's nothing they couldn't accomplish with time and effort. |
| 00:36.40 | Iriel | ah yes, but it's unbounded there |
| 00:36.43 | Corrodias2 | kind of like getting a pretty pony, really... |
| 00:36.46 | Iriel | You can only buy ONE sparklepony |
| 00:37.06 | Iriel | Or, more to the point, it's only useful to buy one |
| 00:38.41 | Dagmar | ...at least, until they add the pink ones. |
| 00:39.05 | Iriel | Even at that point, there's no added functionality |
| 00:39.19 | Iriel | (beyond I guess slightly easier passage to the N mounts achivements) |
| 00:39.37 | Corrodias2 | so it comes down to the old RMT question: does it really matter if some other guy beat you with a weapon he earned or beat you with a weapon he bought? |
| 00:39.43 | Corrodias2 | you're beaten |
| 00:40.06 | Dagmar | The good news is that the Glacial Airsick Bag you'll need to deal with people riding a pink sparklepony is only five bucks. |
| 00:40.30 | Dagmar | Corrodias2: It matters. |
| 00:40.54 | Corrodias2 | i agree. for some reason. it's an instinctual response, but i couldn't explain why. |
| 00:41.19 | Wobin | well no |
| 00:41.22 | Dagmar | Regardless of the issue of whether or not 25-mans are _really_ harder than 10-mans and so on, any punk with money can *buy* better gear, but it takes someone with connections and reasonable skill at not wiping raids to _win_ better gear |
| 00:41.23 | Wobin | it's about self worth |
| 00:41.59 | Corrodias2 | in a game that is -all about- earning shiny trinkets so you can go earn more shiny trinkets, it does sort of make everything meaningless. |
| 00:42.00 | Wobin | You feel that the effort you placed in your character warrants that if you -are- beaten by someone, you want that someone to have put as much work into their character that you have yours |
| 00:42.24 | Wobin | if the other person has put no effort into their character |
| 00:42.31 | Dagmar | I want them to not have a disproportional gear advantage that minimizes the effect of skill on the outcome to triviality |
| 00:42.31 | Wobin | then all your work for your character has been for nothing |
| 00:43.01 | Dagmar | If they bought gear to get on par with you and won, then you were at least beaten somewhat fairly |
| 00:43.22 | Dagmar | On the flipside of this, someone who just hit 80 stands about zero chance against someone with T10. |
| 00:43.38 | Corrodias2 | hmm, but they can also "earn" (grind to) better gear than you |
| 00:43.46 | Dagmar | Ah but they didn't. |
| 00:43.55 | Dagmar | So, uneven playing field. |
| 00:43.57 | Corrodias2 | or maybe they did, you can't tell |
| 00:44.05 | Corrodias2 | unless it sparkles |
| 00:44.32 | Iriel | I disagree, someone GOOD who just hit 80 stands a chance against someone with low skill but lots of time |
| 00:45.41 | Dagmar | You'd think that but my guild leader's kid does PvP all the time, and he's quite good at it |
| 00:45.58 | Dagmar | I crushed him 9/9 when he hit 80 and I practically never, ever PvP. |
| 00:46.12 | Corrodias2 | did you buy that gear or grind for it? |
| 00:46.37 | Dagmar | Literally all I did was textbook button clicking. One ice trap, Bestial Wrath, standard IWIN DPS macro. Done. |
| 00:46.39 | Corrodias2 | i know this is only sort of tangential, but, well, ho can he tell? |
| 00:46.44 | Corrodias2 | *how |
| 00:46.56 | Dagmar | ...because he died in under seven seconds. |
| 00:47.16 | Corrodias2 | what i mean is, how can he tell whether you spent 5 hours grinding gear or spent 5 hours' wages on the gear? |
| 00:47.33 | Dagmar | It's rather an extreme case, but hunter vs hunter can really boil down to who has higher deeps and that's about it (beyond a certain level of deeps) |
| 00:47.39 | Corrodias2 | i still agree with you, i just dearly love the role of devil's advocate. |
| 00:47.54 | Iriel | Good or informed hunter, vs godo or informed hunter |
| 00:48.33 | Dagmar | It didn't matter whether I was "good" or not. I depoyed two somewhat obvious counters and just lolclicked |
| 00:48.41 | Iriel | so you are good or informed |
| 00:48.53 | *** join/#wowuidev Natch| (~natch@c-97cde155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) |
| 00:49.15 | Dagmar | Someone who's going "OOo! I'll click the red one with the teeth!" is a bit below what we'd even call a "player" |
| 00:49.29 | Dagmar | ...but that's what it would take to win with a strong gear disadvantage. |
| 00:49.49 | Iriel | But those of the peopel everyone claims will beat them if you can buy stuff |
| 00:49.51 | Dagmar | You'd have to catch them AFK or something |
| 00:50.34 | Dagmar | This is why Blizz won't let you buy combat advantages. |
| 00:50.46 | Dagmar | ...although the goddamn Chinese have no problem selling it. |
| 00:50.46 | Corrodias2 | yet people can grind for gear and do that |
| 00:51.14 | Corrodias2 | hell, if everybody HAD to earn the gear first, maybe they would. then it'd be even harder to beat them, and he'd lose even more often. |
| 00:51.44 | Dagmar | They could, but they didn't. The fact remains that they stepped outside the normal game environment to buy an advantage through RMT |
| 00:52.31 | Dagmar | You could extend that in a different way and say it's a fair win if I got on a bus, took a cab to my opponents house, and cut their DSL as I start the match from a 4G-equipped notebook. |
| 00:52.44 | Dagmar | 'cuz you know, at the end of the fight I still "won". |
| 00:53.02 | Corrodias2 | eh, the argument only works unless and until RMT is permitted |
| 00:53.14 | Corrodias2 | in a discussion about why it isn't permitted, i think that's moot |
| 00:53.20 | Dagmar | All I'm doing is buying geolocational proximity |
| 00:54.11 | Dagmar | That's the problem with considering the use of factors _outside the game_ to be "fair". It's a slippery slop that would make Vail, Colorado envious. |
| 00:54.18 | Dagmar | s/slop/slope/ |
| 00:55.22 | Corrodias2 | yeah, but we're talking about permitting them in the game. in this discussion, the point can be invalidated by starting an argument with the premise, "assume it were allowed." what's bad about it? well, now it's in the game, so... |
| 00:56.43 | Dagmar | If it were in the game, then the difference would be the same as amateur sports leagues, and professional sports leagues. |
| 00:57.08 | Dagmar | ...and that particular argument is the reason they've got committes to keep those two separate |
| 00:57.30 | Corrodias2 | that it makes for more entertaining games if people of different skill levels are forcibly separated? |
| 00:58.25 | Dagmar | That and someone who can spend say, a quarter million dollars on a racecar is almost guaranteed to have a far superior chance over someone with a budget of "one used volvo and some nitrous" |
| 00:59.11 | Corrodias2 | does it really work the same way if they could build a racecar just as good with their own time and effort? |
| 00:59.12 | Dagmar | An athlete whose full-time job is sports is going to generally be in better shape than one who can't spend all day working out and weight-training |
| 00:59.28 | Dagmar | Corrodias2: The fact is that they can't. |
| 00:59.44 | Shirik | "I have somebody as a friend, but I don't know / forget who they are and I thought it might have been you" <-- This is why Facebook is completely broken |
| 00:59.47 | Corrodias2 | then it's not a good comparison to WoW |
| 00:59.51 | Dagmar | Not unless they personally have all the expertise that someone else can call on collectively through the application of money. |
| 01:00.02 | Corrodias2 | WoW doesn't take the expertise and stuff |
| 01:01.51 | Dagmar | You might as well argue that it's "fair" to bring a gun to a knife fight. |
| 01:01.55 | Shirik | "Characters may not be transferred to or from a suspended, temporary or permanently disabled account." |
| 01:02.03 | Shirik | Why the hell would you transfer a character to a banned account? |
| 01:02.13 | Dagmar | Sure, the guy with the knife might catch someone off guard and get in a throat shot, but the odds are stacked heavily that they're just going to get their face blown off. |
| 01:02.23 | Corrodias2 | but wait, people do that all the time in WoW pvp |
| 01:02.30 | Corrodias2 | or rather, they bring a knife to a gun fight |
| 01:02.51 | Dagmar | Corrodias2: Thats why they give those people stun-locks to work with. |
| 01:03.02 | Dagmar | Otherwise, they're monkey snacks. |
| 01:03.04 | Dagmar | :) |
| 01:03.42 | Corrodias2 | i've got some roleplaying to do, so bye. it's been fun. |
| 01:15.02 | *** join/#wowuidev tem (~tardmrr@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Dongle/Tem) |
| 01:15.02 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v tem] by ChanServ |
| 01:15.40 | tem | Someone confirm for me that blizzcon tickets must be picked up with the card used to buy them as a countermeasure to scalping |
| 01:17.23 | Dagmar | I'd like to think so, but if the forum wailing is any indication they still haven't bothered to implement that |
| 01:17.46 | Dagmar | Instead opting for the nonsensical expectation that just because it's _illegal_ in California that no one will do it |
| 01:19.15 | Dagmar | Being that you can buy multiple tickets so you and all your friends can go and all under one name, so long as the scalper shows up to register they've got a whopping great loophole |
| 01:21.22 | *** join/#wowuidev Mikina (632153a0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.33.83.160) |
| 01:24.18 | Iriel | Shirik: If you can't transfer one TO a banned account, they dont have to make exceptions for transferring FROM one if somene claims 'I transferred to the wrong one' |
| 01:33.13 | Dagmar | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:33.39 | cog|away | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv0OqXCicy8 |
| 01:33.47 | cogwheel | FISKER |
| 01:34.31 | Dagmar | hahahah |
| 01:35.35 | Dagmar | Looks like that dude has a few more clips of homoerotic sports moments than could be safely called 'casual interest' tho' |
| 01:46.19 | *** join/#wowuidev Alram (~Marla@fabe.xs4all.nl) |
| 02:01.47 | Shirik | cogwheel |
| 02:01.51 | Shirik | you never answered my C++ question |
| 02:01.54 | Shirik | I am disappoint |
| 02:02.37 | Cide | so am I |
| 02:03.23 | cogwheel | Shirik: lolwut |
| 02:03.31 | cogwheel | was my name cog|away at the time? |
| 02:05.03 | Shirik | had this problem today: http://codepad.org/ptoKT0vA |
| 02:05.09 | Shirik | do you know the solution? I do now |
| 02:06.43 | cogwheel | rvalue reference? |
| 02:07.06 | Shirik | you could make that sound a hell of a lot easier |
| 02:07.07 | Shirik | but yes |
| 02:07.15 | Shirik | Cide is sitting there like "wtf is an rvalue reference" |
| 02:07.29 | Cide | nope |
| 02:07.36 | Cide | makes sense to me |
| 02:07.37 | Shirik | really! |
| 02:07.53 | Shirik | well then Cide |
| 02:07.55 | Shirik | what is the solution? |
| 02:08.18 | Shirik | that being said cogwheel |
| 02:08.24 | Shirik | I still haven't figured out WHY it has to be an rvalue |
| 02:08.29 | Cide | I don't know the syntax! |
| 02:08.46 | Cide | Foo(a, b)&& apparently |
| 02:08.50 | Shirik | uh |
| 02:08.50 | Shirik | no |
| 02:08.55 | Cide | so this google page says! |
| 02:08.59 | Shirik | no |
| 02:09.03 | Shirik | I don't know what google is telling you |
| 02:09.06 | Shirik | but it's completely wrong |
| 02:09.07 | Cide | oh |
| 02:09.07 | Cide | no |
| 02:09.12 | Cide | that was the type |
| 02:09.22 | cogwheel | Shirik: is it 'cause you're not allowed to use an rvalue as a non-const reference? |
| 02:09.23 | Shirik | that is not a legal type |
| 02:09.27 | Shirik | you can't have a reference to a reference |
| 02:09.29 | Shirik | a reference is not a type |
| 02:09.43 | cogwheel | ah right |
| 02:09.58 | Shirik | cogwheel: Oh |
| 02:10.01 | Shirik | I guess it is an rvalue |
| 02:10.05 | Shirik | I didn't think about that |
| 02:10.09 | Shirik | huuh |
| 02:10.12 | Shirik | that makes it really obvious, lol |
| 02:10.15 | Cide | does codepad do C++0x? |
| 02:10.21 | Shirik | duno |
| 02:10.23 | Shirik | anyway Cide |
| 02:10.26 | Shirik | it's very simple |
| 02:10.26 | Cide | http://thbecker.net/articles/rvalue_references/section_03.html |
| 02:10.48 | Shirik | Cide: http://codepad.org/gfHVOjJj |
| 02:10.58 | *** join/#wowuidev Amarande (amarande@68-191-37-155.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com) |
| 02:11.12 | Cide | or Bar(Foo&& foo) by that site's logic |
| 02:11.14 | Amarande | maann ... no wonder these are only a dollar |
| 02:11.26 | Amarande | might as well be "Jar of Polar Brand Fruit Cup - Requires Lockpicking (400)" |
| 02:11.27 | Cide | C++0x addition it seems so I can't verify if that's the proper solution |
| 02:11.38 | Shirik | I've never seen that before |
| 02:12.01 | Cide | so I win? |
| 02:12.41 | Shirik | no |
| 02:12.44 | Cide | aww |
| 02:12.45 | Cide | why not? |
| 02:12.46 | Shirik | because it's not a standard yet |
| 02:12.51 | Cide | well that's cheating |
| 02:12.54 | Cide | but ok |
| 02:13.02 | Cide | why can't you have non-const references to rvalues? |
| 02:13.18 | Cide | in the current standard |
| 02:14.14 | Shirik | it's unsafe |
| 02:14.18 | Cide | why? |
| 02:14.30 | Shirik | void foo(int& bar) { bar = 3; } |
| 02:14.33 | Shirik | what does foo(4) do? |
| 02:14.40 | Amarande | btw ... am I thinking it correct and obvious that a mage should be using Amplify Magic on the MT on saurfang? |
| 02:14.42 | Cide | right |
| 02:14.57 | Cide | but then what's the logic behind the rvalue references being introduced? |
| 02:15.02 | Shirik | oh |
| 02:15.03 | Cide | if it's inherently unsafe |
| 02:15.18 | Shirik | I'm reading up on it now, it appears to have to do with move semantics |
| 02:15.18 | cogwheel | rvalue references enable move semantics, right? |
| 02:15.27 | Cide | meaning? |
| 02:15.34 | Shirik | if you use rvalue references, you can make several optimizations |
| 02:15.42 | Shirik | const T& requires you to use the copy constructor |
| 02:16.01 | Shirik | like |
| 02:16.04 | Cide | really? I thought it was a reference to the object |
| 02:16.07 | Shirik | hm, how to explain this |
| 02:16.08 | Cide | or does it copy it to a const |
| 02:16.11 | Shirik | I didn't explain it well |
| 02:16.33 | cogwheel | Shirik: "how to explain this?" http://lmgtfy.com/?q=move+semantics |
| 02:16.35 | cogwheel | ;) |
| 02:16.44 | Cide | the page describes move semantics |
| 02:16.49 | Cide | I think |
| 02:16.51 | Cide | I haven't read it |
| 02:16.58 | Cide | I can read up on that |
| 02:17.06 | Cide | but anyway |
| 02:17.20 | Cide | void foo(int&& bar) { bar = 3; } foo(4); |
| 02:17.25 | Cide | how is that any different? |
| 02:17.53 | *** join/#wowuidev DJJeff (~crazyjeff@S0106001e582ff89c.vc.shawcable.net) |
| 02:20.35 | Shirik | yes |
| 02:20.37 | Shirik | this is a good example |
| 02:20.41 | Shirik | oh btw, that's illegal cide |
| 02:20.48 | Shirik | bar = 3; is illegal because bar is an rvalue |
| 02:21.06 | Shirik | but here's a good example |
| 02:21.11 | Cide | ah, neat |
| 02:21.23 | Shirik | std::string a = "a"; std::string b = "b"; |
| 02:21.47 | Shirik | void swap(std::string& a, std::string& b); |
| 02:21.50 | Shirik | how would you implement this? |
| 02:22.02 | Shirik | std::string temp = a; a = b; b = temp; |
| 02:22.13 | cogwheel | http://www.artima.com/cppsource/rvalue.html imo |
| 02:25.43 | Cide | yeah, I'll read that in a bit |
| 02:26.12 | Shirik | lol |
| 02:26.19 | Shirik | not for the feint of heart! |
| 02:26.28 | Shirik | faint? |
| 02:26.29 | Shirik | something like that |
| 02:26.47 | Cide | the examples seemed quite large |
| 02:27.05 | Cide | relatively speaking of course |
| 02:28.25 | Shirik | OH |
| 02:28.28 | Shirik | I think I really get it now |
| 02:28.29 | Shirik | cogwheel |
| 02:28.36 | Shirik | so an rvalue reference can't be used as a const lvalue reference? |
| 02:28.58 | cogwheel | fuck if i know >< |
| 02:29.10 | Shirik | no that doesn't make sense |
| 02:31.13 | Shirik | yes yes |
| 02:31.14 | Shirik | I get it |
| 02:31.34 | Shirik | an rvalue reference can only show up in cases where the rvalue is disappearing |
| 02:31.43 | Shirik | that's why this works |
| 02:31.44 | Shirik | ok |
| 02:31.54 | Shirik | I get it! |
| 02:32.10 | Shirik | fires up VS 2010 |
| 02:33.04 | cogwheel | vs2010 hasn't fully implemented rvalue references iirc |
| 02:33.18 | cogwheel | no default move constructor or something like that... |
| 02:33.31 | Shirik | I'm fine with that |
| 02:33.36 | Shirik | I'm just looking to see some of the details |
| 02:33.46 | Shirik | what I'm most curious about is something dangerous like this |
| 02:33.57 | Shirik | const T& foo; T&& bar; |
| 02:33.59 | Shirik | foo = bar; |
| 02:34.05 | Shirik | I hope this should be illegal |
| 02:34.09 | Shirik | if so I think I understand it |
| 02:34.34 | Shirik | well obviously it's illegal because you can't assign to a reference |
| 02:34.35 | Shirik | but I mean |
| 02:34.39 | Shirik | const T& foo(bar) |
| 02:36.48 | Cide | why is that dangerous? |
| 02:37.00 | Cide | well I mean |
| 02:37.08 | Shirik | because |
| 02:37.26 | Cide | bar is uninitialized? |
| 02:37.29 | Shirik | it allows the rvalue reference to survive |
| 02:37.51 | Shirik | if you don't allow that to happen, then you can guarantee any operation with it will cause it to disappear |
| 02:38.22 | Cide | what's the difference between const T& foo = T(); and T&& bar = T(); const T& foo(bar); |
| 02:38.40 | Cide | I don't even know if T&& bar = T(); is legal |
| 02:38.52 | Cide | so I should probably read it before I ask questions! |
| 02:38.53 | Shirik | it is |
| 02:38.59 | Cide | oh cool |
| 02:39.03 | Cide | go me |
| 02:39.04 | Shirik | here's the danger |
| 02:39.23 | Shirik | const T& foo(bar) |
| 02:39.29 | Shirik | this constructor could take two types |
| 02:39.36 | Shirik | a const T& |
| 02:39.42 | Shirik | or a T&& |
| 02:39.49 | Shirik | the former you don't know anything about |
| 02:39.53 | Shirik | so you have to copy it |
| 02:40.01 | Shirik | that is, literally, the definition of a copy constructor |
| 02:40.10 | Shirik | T&&, however, you know the variable is disappearing |
| 02:40.22 | Shirik | so you can do slightly more dangerous stuff with it |
| 02:40.28 | Shirik | like using its resources instead of reallocating |
| 02:40.38 | Shirik | think of if you stored a pointer inside T |
| 02:40.51 | Shirik | you could just take the address instead of reallocating and copying |
| 02:41.07 | Cide | what do you mean the variable is disappearing? |
| 02:41.20 | Shirik | the variable will no longer be accessible |
| 02:41.24 | cogwheel | a = 1 + 2... the value 3 disappears after the statement |
| 02:41.34 | Cide | T&& or the value referenced by T? |
| 02:41.36 | cogwheel | (once it's stored in a) |
| 02:41.45 | Shirik | the temporary you created |
| 02:41.46 | Shirik | T() |
| 02:41.51 | dolby | Haha, the Tf2 Mac video is pretty good http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbaALmFegxg |
| 02:41.54 | Cide | ok, I'm with you then |
| 02:42.08 | Shirik | the key here is that you KNOW it's a temporary |
| 02:42.11 | Cide | but it seems this is also valid |
| 02:42.12 | Shirik | unlike with const T& |
| 02:42.18 | Cide | A a; A&& a_ref = a; |
| 02:42.57 | Shirik | see I need to play with this more |
| 02:43.01 | Shirik | that is a valid point |
| 02:43.10 | Shirik | unless it's not |
| 02:43.10 | Shirik | lol |
| 02:43.15 | Cide | http://www.artima.com/cppsource/rvalue.html |
| 02:43.16 | Cide | it is |
| 02:43.18 | Cloudwolf | HOLY JEBUS lookit htat shotgun on the engineer |
| 02:43.21 | cogwheel | Shirik: truism is true |
| 02:43.43 | Cide | second code block under "The rvalue reference" |
| 02:43.44 | Cide | near the top |
| 02:44.01 | Shirik | this might fall into the "yes, you could break it. But don't." |
| 02:44.17 | Shirik | though this seems to be unusually easy to break |
| 02:44.26 | Cide | sweet |
| 02:44.30 | Shirik | whereas usually the "don't do that" type things fall in the lines of "you have to really force it through" |
| 02:44.35 | Cide | I'll totally master that in 10 years |
| 02:44.39 | Cide | maybe |
| 02:44.39 | Shirik | like const_cast reinterpret_cast |
| 02:45.00 | Shirik | I wonder |
| 02:45.02 | Shirik | you know what |
| 02:45.05 | Shirik | I just realized |
| 02:45.12 | Shirik | A&& a_ref = a; |
| 02:45.17 | Shirik | might actually call the copy constructor |
| 02:45.23 | Shirik | I wonder |
| 02:45.25 | Cide | that wouldn't make sense |
| 02:45.27 | cogwheel | yeah, i think it would |
| 02:45.28 | Shirik | sure it would |
| 02:45.32 | Cide | why? |
| 02:45.33 | Shirik | create a temporary A |
| 02:45.36 | cogwheel | because it needs to turn a into an rvalue |
| 02:45.39 | Shirik | then store its reference into a_ref |
| 02:45.52 | Cide | but what about |
| 02:45.56 | Cide | A& a_ref2 = a; |
| 02:46.03 | cogwheel | that's not an rvalue reference |
| 02:46.04 | Shirik | illegal |
| 02:46.05 | Cide | is a still an lvalue? |
| 02:46.11 | Shirik | oh |
| 02:46.14 | Shirik | misread |
| 02:46.16 | Shirik | yes, that's legal |
| 02:46.23 | Cide | is a an lvalue there? |
| 02:46.24 | Shirik | and that won't call the copy constructor |
| 02:46.25 | Cide | or rvalue |
| 02:46.29 | Shirik | lvalue |
| 02:46.31 | Cide | ok |
| 02:46.32 | Shirik | but it's on the right side :) |
| 02:46.34 | Cide | yeah |
| 02:46.36 | Shirik | but it IS assignable |
| 02:46.37 | Cide | that's why I asked |
| 02:47.01 | Cide | so A&& a_ref = a; isn't actually a reference to the same a? |
| 02:47.12 | Shirik | that would be my guess |
| 02:47.16 | Cide | that's confusing |
| 02:47.16 | Shirik | that's the only way I can see it being safe |
| 02:47.21 | Shirik | of course |
| 02:47.25 | Shirik | this is my 1 hour into this understanding of it |
| 02:47.29 | cogwheel | that's why you don't use it that way ;) |
| 02:47.35 | Shirik | so take everything I say with a grain of salt |
| 02:47.40 | Cide | yeah |
| 02:47.42 | cogwheel | ditto |
| 02:47.44 | Cide | I always do |
| 02:47.45 | Cide | ! |
| 02:48.17 | cogwheel | re grain of salt... it's probably my second hour ;) |
| 02:48.33 | Cide | so you're twice as reliable |
| 02:48.47 | cogwheel | which is why i was able to answer his question so quickly ;) |
| 02:49.09 | cogwheel | needs something to program |
| 02:49.34 | cogwheel | (that isn't a website or database) |
| 02:49.37 | cogwheel | (or addon) |
| 02:50.33 | Cide | you may take Shirik's role on our project since he doesn't seem to grasp C++ as much as is needed |
| 02:50.59 | Shirik | ... |
| 02:51.02 | cogwheel | XD |
| 02:51.25 | Shirik | yes, because EVERYONE needs to fully understand C++0x right when it comes out |
| 02:51.30 | Shirik | because projects will instantly all use C++0x |
| 02:51.34 | Cide | yes! |
| 02:51.54 | Cide | don't worry shirikitty |
| 02:51.56 | Cide | our role is safe |
| 02:51.58 | Cide | your too |
| 02:52.04 | cogwheel | most compilers don't even fully understand C++98 |
| 02:52.06 | Cide | I'm the one who should be kicked |
| 02:52.17 | Cide | how's vs on that front? |
| 02:52.21 | Cide | say vs2010 |
| 02:52.38 | cogwheel | only the most esoteric features aren't supported |
| 02:52.47 | cogwheel | exported templates |
| 02:52.59 | cogwheel | something about throw() |
| 02:53.35 | cogwheel | edg and derivatives are the only ones that fully support the standard |
| 02:53.56 | Shirik | I still want concepts :( |
| 02:54.22 | cogwheel | yeah, but bjarne sold me on the justification for dropping them |
| 02:55.08 | Shirik | what was that? |
| 02:55.13 | Shirik | I never saw any justification |
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| 02:56.46 | cogwheel | looking for the article... |
| 02:58.15 | cogwheel | meh... the few points i remember: they were still in such flux that leaving them in would've probably pushed the next standard out a few more years |
| 02:58.33 | cogwheel | they were a brand new thing that hasn't really been proven in the real world yet |
| 02:58.41 | cogwheel | among others |
| 02:59.34 | cogwheel | http://www.drdobbs.com/cpp/218600111 |
| 03:08.55 | Shirik | I just encountered another problem with rvalue references |
| 03:09.26 | Shirik | take the canonical example of std::string having an internal char* pointer |
| 03:09.37 | Shirik | std::string(std::string&& s) would just take the pointer |
| 03:09.50 | Shirik | what if I did this? |
| 03:10.10 | Shirik | Foo(std::string&& s) { std::string a(s); std::string b(s); } |
| 03:10.17 | Shirik | o noes |
| 03:10.47 | Cide | so now you have two strings that point to the same internal char array? |
| 03:10.58 | Cide | without being the same object |
| 03:10.59 | Shirik | yes |
| 03:11.07 | Shirik | I see two possible ways around ths |
| 03:11.13 | Cide | is it a problem though? |
| 03:11.17 | Cide | I mean, it's totally unclear |
| 03:11.21 | Cide | but is it dangerous? |
| 03:12.01 | Shirik | the first is that trying to re-pass an r-value reference causes a copy constructor call |
| 03:12.02 | Shirik | the second is that it breaks and it's something you need to be aware of |
| 03:12.02 | Shirik | the first seems like it would make things like swap() impossible |
| 03:12.11 | Shirik | the second seems unlike C++ to show you that you're doing something wrong |
| 03:12.23 | Shirik | that is it doesn't |
| 03:12.37 | Shirik | brb altering QoS |
| 03:13.06 | Shirik | ~ping |
| 03:13.06 | purl | ~pong |
| 03:13.12 | Shirik | oh wow I didn't get disconnected |
| 03:13.12 | Shirik | anyway |
| 03:13.16 | Shirik | so yeah |
| 03:17.44 | ZorbaBeta | shirik, I believe you're misinterpreting rvalue references |
| 03:17.59 | Shirik | (19:46:08) (@Shirik) this is my 1 hour into this understanding of it |
| 03:18.03 | Shirik | (19:46:18) (@Shirik) so take everything I say with a grain of salt |
| 03:18.26 | ZorbaBeta | I'm pretty sure it doesn't say that it will just copy pointers, it says that the thing you're copying from is left in an undefined state (possibly an invalid one, I don't know what the convention is) |
| 03:18.33 | Shirik | oh it doesn't |
| 03:18.34 | ZorbaBeta | in this case I'd imagine that s would be left equal to "" |
| 03:18.54 | Shirik | however teh canonical example appears to be of std::string moving its pointer |
| 03:18.55 | ZorbaBeta | so b would probably end up as "", or possibly as some sentinel "hey this is broken" value. |
| 03:19.04 | Shirik | in its move constructor |
| 03:19.08 | ZorbaBeta | (i'm betting "") |
| 03:19.16 | Shirik | see I'm willing to accept that as possible |
| 03:19.29 | Shirik | but it seems like one of those things that C++ should more visibly warn you about |
| 03:21.03 | ZorbaBeta | it looks like the intended solution here is "don't take a && if you don't intend move semantics" |
| 03:24.37 | Shirik | the other side of it is "The average programmer will never use an rvalue reference. It's intended for some low-level optimizations on the library side" |
| 03:25.04 | ZorbaBeta | yeah, it's one of those things like partial template specialization that really exists for backend magic |
| 03:25.43 | cogwheel | magics your back end |
| 03:26.45 | Cide | I thought it said that rvalue references greatly speed up things like in-place sorting |
| 03:27.04 | Shirik | it would |
| 03:27.09 | Cide | but that you need to define rvalue copy constructors for it to speed up |
| 03:27.11 | Shirik | moving instead of copying is good |
| 03:27.19 | Shirik | it's not a copy constructor :) |
| 03:27.22 | Cide | yeah whatever |
| 03:27.24 | Shirik | it's a move constructor |
| 03:27.32 | Cide | that seems "average programmer" enough to me |
| 03:28.15 | Shirik | what I mean is |
| 03:28.20 | Shirik | you will probably never take a std::string&& |
| 03:28.34 | Shirik | the only rvalue references you might deal with are probably going to be your own types |
| 03:28.46 | Shirik | you might USE things that take an rvalue reference of types you didn't make |
| 03:28.51 | Shirik | but that will be nearly invisible to you |
| 03:29.22 | Cide | ah, maybe |
| 03:29.23 | Cide | anyway, bedtime |
| 03:29.24 | Cide | night |
| 03:29.32 | Shirik | baibai |
| 03:29.41 | Shirik | ãããã¿ãªãã |
| 03:32.47 | Amarande | man, that deadmines run made me feel like a bad |
| 03:33.24 | Amarande | half the mobs died too fast for me to get a cast off :| |
| 03:33.34 | Shirik | probably because you are a bad |
| 03:33.45 | Amarande | Shirik: maybe because half the mobs are non-elite and the other dps were physical |
| 03:33.56 | Amarande | "your target is dead your target is dead your target is dead ..." |
| 03:34.11 | Shirik | l2arcane blast |
| 03:34.58 | Shirik | OR |
| 03:35.01 | Shirik | I got a better idea |
| 03:35.05 | Shirik | sheep a target |
| 03:35.08 | Shirik | so nobody attacks it |
| 03:35.10 | Shirik | and then attack it |
| 03:36.52 | Amarande | Shirik: yes, my level 19 mage is going to cast arcane blast |
| 03:38.23 | Shirik | yup |
| 03:38.36 | Amarande | can you tell me what secret UI mod I need to add that icon to my spellbook? |
| 03:38.53 | Shirik | sorry I don't share |
| 03:39.01 | Shirik | I am apple |
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| 03:43.01 | Shirik | hey wait |
| 03:43.02 | Shirik | wtf |
| 03:43.04 | Shirik | I didn't get paid today |
| 03:43.53 | Shirik | it got direct deposited |
| 03:43.54 | Shirik | wtfhax |
| 03:46.46 | Amarande | eh, it's only money |
| 03:46.55 | Amarande | just dust in the wind eventually, as Kansas once said |
| 03:49.14 | Amarande | btw, is it considered poor etiquette to loot the good stuff from world chests and leave the food? |
| 03:49.19 | Shirik | lol |
| 03:49.21 | Shirik | I do it |
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| 03:49.50 | Shirik | so, probably |
| 03:50.31 | Amarande | wtf, these blood elf mages |
| 03:50.36 | Amarande | immolate AND fireball? hax! |
| 03:51.00 | Shirik | lol |
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| 04:17.46 | Amarande | "woot" |
| 04:17.50 | Amarande | did an NPC seriously just say "woot" |
| 04:17.56 | Amarande | ... yeah, they did. :| |
| 04:19.25 | airtonix | sad |
| 04:19.48 | Amarande | apparently, the draenei NPCs you rescue in the spider area of bloodmyst can say that |
| 04:21.09 | Dagmar | So can the children you rescue in Terrokar |
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| 04:41.45 | Amarande | lol I just picked up my elekk and riding training |
| 04:41.54 | Amarande | and then I go to hit the AH and ... I get the mail advertising riding training |
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| 05:12.12 | Amarande | yay, level 20 has made maging a lot more fun |
| 05:12.24 | Amarande | well ... except my contribution to physical-heavy dungeons will probably still suck |
| 05:12.35 | Amarande | I mean, shit dies before I can cast fireball, Pyroblast takes even longer lol |
| 05:13.34 | NightHawkTheSane | you dont generally cast pyro unless you can make it instant |
| 05:13.44 | NightHawkTheSane | or really feel like wasting 6 seconds of your life |
| 05:24.21 | Iriel | Hm, The Road is a really cheery movie isn't it |
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| 05:37.34 | awweaver | Hello, finally fxed my client.... |
| 05:37.49 | Cairenn | hi |
| 05:38.04 | awweaver | Hello |
| 05:38.55 | awweaver | So whats everyone up to tonight? |
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| 05:45.50 | Corrodias2 | not much any more |
| 05:55.43 | awweaver | This is Epic. |
| 05:55.46 | awweaver | http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=159564 |
| 06:04.32 | eidolarr | I'm really lost on writing stateless iterators |
| 06:04.40 | eidolarr | can anyone spare a few minutes? |
| 06:05.37 | Corrodias2 | stateless iterators? what's this nonsense? |
| 06:05.50 | awweaver | ^^ |
| 06:06.35 | eidolarr | that's what it's described as in programming in lua, stuff like ipairs and pairs |
| 06:06.39 | eidolarr | iterators that aren't closurs |
| 06:07.03 | Corrodias2 | eh, sorry, i think it's over my head, or maybe i just don't care enough |
| 06:07.21 | eidolarr | well uh thanks anyway |
| 06:07.30 | Iriel | eidolarr: what are you trying to do, exactly? |
| 06:07.34 | awweaver | Yea sorry have no idea... |
| 06:07.57 | Iriel | Sometimes it's more overhead to make an iterator 'stateless' than stateful |
| 06:08.17 | eidolarr | Iriel: I have this table t that is hidden, and I want a global function that iterates over its elements |
| 06:08.24 | eidolarr | so that I can give outsiders an iterator without direct access |
| 06:08.31 | eidolarr | also it's something fun to learn =) |
| 06:08.47 | Iriel | You might well WANT that to be stateful, so you can hide the keys |
| 06:08.56 | Iriel | or do you not care if the outsiders know the keys? |
| 06:09.32 | eidolarr | hmm |
| 06:09.38 | eidolarr | I can't make it hide the keys without state? |
| 06:10.08 | awweaver | thinks the Diritos bag is deffective, theres a hole in the top.... |
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| 06:10.46 | Iriel | not unless you can map something 'visible' to a key later |
| 06:11.20 | awweaver | :( moar maintence |
| 06:12.31 | Iriel | Only you know what your 'table' is storing |
| 06:12.41 | Iriel | I'm not sure there's a general answer there |
| 06:13.06 | eidolarr | I think keys/values both being visible is ok |
| 06:13.09 | eidolarr | this is the part I don't get |
| 06:13.26 | eidolarr | function ipairs(a return iter, a, 0; end' |
| 06:13.40 | eidolarr | then iter vasically takes the index to return |
| 06:13.52 | eidolarr | how does the for loop then know what argument to pass to iter after 0? |
| 06:14.05 | Iriel | You should look at the lua manual, it describes how for works |
| 06:14.10 | Iriel | let me find the section number |
| 06:14.35 | eidolarr | i have a harder time reading the manual but i guess i'm not gleaning understanding from PiL |
| 06:14.43 | Iriel | http://www.lua.org/manual/5.1/manual.html |
| 06:14.46 | eidolarr | i can look it up, let me go get it |
| 06:14.52 | Iriel | Look in section 2.4.5, near the end of it |
| 06:14.53 | eidolarr | naw i bought a hard copy hehe |
| 06:15.15 | Iriel | The piece that starts with "A for statement like" "for var_1, ···, var_n in explist do block end" |
| 06:15.25 | Iriel | it's the last block of code in that section |
| 06:18.28 | eidolarr | ah excellent |
| 06:18.29 | eidolarr | thanks a lot |
| 06:19.52 | Iriel | Did that make sense? |
| 06:23.05 | eidolarr | yeah i get it now, thanks again |
| 06:23.09 | awweaver | idk but im confused |
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| 06:46.59 | Amarande | wow, I don't remember WC taking that long before |
| 07:00.22 | Adys | i do |
| 07:00.30 | Adys | i remember going there for the first time as alliance |
| 07:00.32 | Adys | level 60 |
| 07:00.41 | Adys | we were 4 level 60 |
| 07:00.47 | Adys | took us like 45 minutes to get to the end |
| 07:06.36 | zenzelezz | I remember every old instance taking "that long", because as a tank I tended to get invited everywhere, and half the time no-one knew the way around the instances |
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| 07:21.48 | *** join/#wowuidev Torhal (~callahan@74-141-240-27.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
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| 07:26.39 | awweaver | well it looks like im not going to get in the Cataclysm Beta.... |
| 07:27.05 | awweaver | due to this bright idea http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=159564 |
| 07:30.17 | zenzelezz | awweaver: how does that affect you? |
| 07:30.45 | awweaver | I won't get int he beta because my guild leader doesnt play..... |
| 07:31.00 | awweaver | and hasnt for some time |
| 07:31.36 | Torhal | What does that have to do with a PHP script to fake out phising sites? |
| 07:31.43 | awweaver | oops |
| 07:31.46 | awweaver | wrong link |
| 07:31.57 | awweaver | http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/contests/cataclysm-beta/index.html |
| 07:31.58 | awweaver | there |
| 07:32.14 | awweaver | sry didnt realizse |
| 07:32.22 | zenzelezz | ah, I see |
| 07:32.43 | zenzelezz | I assume you've set your account to opted-in for the Cataclysm beta anyway? Might still get lucky |
| 07:32.51 | Corrodias2 | so BC's theme was "alien world and demons". wrath's was "undead and SNOW". what's cataclysm's? |
| 07:33.06 | awweaver | Yes i have but i doubt i will get in |
| 07:33.26 | awweaver | Death and Destruction? |
| 07:33.58 | Amarande | hmm |
| 07:34.10 | Amarande | why do I get the feeling that I won't be doing much elite soloing on a fire mage ... |
| 07:34.23 | awweaver | cause ur not awesome? |
| 07:34.46 | Amarande | awweaver: more because fire mages are sqooshier than a bowl of jello |
| 07:35.15 | awweaver | hmm...ok just blast them beofre they have a chance to hit you |
| 07:35.28 | *** join/#wowuidev harl (harl@dslb-088-077-199-165.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 07:35.30 | Amarande | and aren't superkites like frost mages |
| 07:35.55 | Amarande | however, I'm quite sure frost is a bad idea to learn, unless one is going to be pvp |
| 07:36.56 | *** join/#wowuidev stolenlegacy (~stolenleg@d86-33-7-18.cust.tele2.at) |
| 07:37.19 | harl | hi |
| 07:37.45 | Amarande | primarly because its usefulness in raids is fairly limited |
| 07:37.47 | awweaver | Hai! 0.0 |
| 07:37.59 | Amarande | and outside of the specific situations in which frost is really helpful, it's a good way to do a hell of a lot less dps than you should :) |
| 07:38.06 | awweaver | Ok then dont go fire... |
| 07:38.13 | awweaver | go frost fire |
| 07:39.09 | awweaver | SO this one time at band camp.... |
| 07:39.49 | Torhal | Amarande: Go Holy. |
| 07:39.52 | Torhal | <PROTECTED> |
| 07:39.57 | awweaver | Holy Mage? |
| 07:40.04 | awweaver | no wait Holy DK |
| 07:40.05 | Torhal | nods sagely. |
| 07:40.13 | Adys | New York Times standards editor Phil Corbett has had enough of his journalists' sloppy writing. Their offense? Using the 'inherently silly' word 'tweet' 18 times in the last month. In an internal memo obtained by theawl.com, he orders his writers to use alternatives, such as '"use Twitter" ... or "a Twitter update. |
| 07:40.15 | Adys | ~nyt++ |
| 07:40.24 | awweaver | Ill be back |
| 08:02.06 | *** join/#wowuidev Repo (~supybot@repos.curseforge.net) |
| 08:02.40 | *** join/#wowuidev Heather (~pirate@75-174-90-88.bois.qwest.net) |
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| 08:26.08 | Fisker | zenzelezz |
| 08:26.12 | Fisker | did you bet on duke? |
| 08:28.20 | *** join/#wowuidev Kalroth (kalroth@3e6babaa.rev.stofanet.dk) |
| 08:28.22 | Fisker | Kalroth |
| 08:28.25 | Fisker | did you bet on duke? |
| 08:28.29 | Kalroth | yes |
| 08:28.39 | Fisker | oh sweet |
| 08:28.41 | Fisker | you hit the jackpot then |
| 09:03.31 | Thunder_Child | Fisker: i bet on luke, does that count? |
| 09:03.51 | Fisker | naw |
| 09:03.58 | Thunder_Child | :( |
| 09:03.59 | Fisker | luke's career was obliterated by star wars |
| 09:04.02 | Fisker | so you lost big time |
| 09:04.17 | Thunder_Child | but dukes comeback isnt |
| 09:06.38 | Thunder_Child | "Nobody says "we need more warriors to handle these smaller group pulls."" heh |
| 09:08.02 | *** join/#wowuidev sioraiocht (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht) |
| 09:10.23 | *** join/#wowuidev Alram (~Marla@fabe.xs4all.nl) |
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| 09:17.28 | jnwhiteh | God fucking damnit curse. |
| 09:17.33 | jnwhiteh | Why do you fucking fail =/ |
| 09:18.41 | Fisker | because they didn't bet on duke |
| 09:19.23 | jnwhiteh | The *ONLY* requirement I have for using your site is that you email me when someone posts a comment or sends me a PM. |
| 09:19.41 | jnwhiteh | but your fucking terrible ASP-based site makes my eyes bleed and doesn't function properly. |
| 09:19.44 | jnwhiteh | sorry, I'm done now. |
| 09:19.48 | Torhal | Hrm. I get emails for comments |
| 09:19.53 | jnwhiteh | 2.5 months of fucking curse comments that haven't been emailed to me. |
| 09:20.04 | Fisker | jumps out of the way |
| 09:20.28 | jnwhiteh | oh they make sure to email me when someone's spamming my comments |
| 09:20.38 | jnwhiteh | with a comment that any child's bayesian filter could fucking catch |
| 09:20.57 | Torhal | Weird. I get all the comments. |
| 09:20.58 | Fisker | i thought you said you were done :( |
| 09:21.27 | jnwhiteh | Torhal: I used to as well |
| 09:21.30 | jnwhiteh | no idea why it stopped. |
| 09:35.54 | *** join/#wowuidev Schnaks (~Schnaks@p4FC4CC2E.dip.t-dialin.net) |
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| 10:18.58 | *** join/#wowuidev mojosdojo (~mojosdojo@p4FEFEEC5.dip.t-dialin.net) |
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| 10:34.00 | *** join/#wowuidev robokitty (~robotusch@50A2E67F.flatrate.dk) |
| 10:40.35 | mikma | jnwhiteh: =( |
| 10:43.11 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (~kd3@wikia/kaydeethree) |
| 10:47.19 | Wobin | Alec Guinness makes an awesome blind butler |
| 10:57.05 | *** join/#wowuidev Osagasu (~Creek@67-197-86-216.rh3.dyn.cm.comporium.net) |
| 11:00.31 | Fisker | this is my awesome face Wobin |
| 11:03.57 | jnwhiteh | mikma =( |
| 11:04.00 | jnwhiteh | ? |
| 11:06.43 | *** join/#wowuidev robokitty (~robotusch@50A2E67F.flatrate.dk) |
| 11:12.59 | mikma | jnwhiteh: 12:19 <@jnwhiteh> 2.5 months of fucking curse comments that haven't been emailed to me. |
| 11:15.42 | nevcairiel | thats why we just ignore curse comments |
| 11:18.32 | Fisker | robokitty |
| 11:18.34 | Fisker | msn |
| 11:19.27 | mikma | omglol |
| 11:19.28 | mikma | care |
| 11:26.57 | *** join/#wowuidev foxlit (~foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
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| 11:32.03 | *** join/#wowuidev awweaver (~awweaver@c-76-121-69-121.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
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| 11:33.30 | *** join/#wowuidev awweaver (~awweaver@c-76-121-69-121.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 11:33.55 | ZorbaBeta | looks like wowstead sells your email to spammers |
| 11:34.33 | ZorbaBeta | ah, no, they just got hacked |
| 11:35.15 | nevcairiel | same thing, really |
| 11:35.26 | ZorbaBeta | a difference in intent. malicious vs. incompetent. |
| 11:37.25 | Fisker | nah nevcairiel |
| 11:37.30 | Fisker | One is free, the other costs |
| 11:37.40 | ZorbaBeta | they're claiming it was just "routine maintenance" but all I know is I'm getting spam to a unique email address that has only been used at wowstead ;) |
| 11:38.28 | nevcairiel | i should use those embedded tags on gmail to use unique mails like that withotu requiring individual accounts |
| 11:38.49 | Gnarfoz | you mean plus-addressing? |
| 11:38.50 | ZorbaBeta | I don't use gmail's implementation, but that's basically what I do |
| 11:38.52 | ZorbaBeta | highly recommended |
| 11:39.02 | nevcairiel | yeah |
| 11:39.06 | nevcairiel | mail+tag@gmail |
| 11:39.09 | ZorbaBeta | (I use -, which isn't "standard" but is also less likely to be autofiltered by spammers) |
| 11:39.14 | Gnarfoz | prepare to enter a world of hurt |
| 11:39.38 | Gnarfoz | because incompetent website makers think all that's valid in an email address is a-zA-Z-_. |
| 11:39.39 | cbreak | I just use custom e-mail addresses |
| 11:39.55 | nevcairiel | i could setup a catchall on some domain and just use that |
| 11:39.56 | nevcairiel | but meh |
| 11:40.04 | Gnarfoz | I do |
| 11:40.08 | ZorbaBeta | that's what I do |
| 11:40.12 | cbreak | Gnarfoz: have you seen the regex for e-mail address validation Shirik posted a few months ago? |
| 11:40.14 | Gnarfoz | but that just means you get spam to ANY address |
| 11:40.15 | ZorbaBeta | with a little filtering to automatically throw away stuff that is absolutely not me |
| 11:40.24 | ZorbaBeta | if it doesn't have "zorba" in the name, it goes straight to the garbage dump |
| 11:40.29 | nevcairiel | yeah, ignore shit like info@ .. sales@ .. etc :P |
| 11:40.43 | Gnarfoz | cbreak: I heard there's some 4kb regex that is "the smallest to validate RFC-conforming email addresses" and a 6kb version that's actually faster |
| 11:40.47 | zenzelezz | spams zorbadmin@zorbasdomain.lulz |
| 11:41.23 | cbreak | apparently "something with spaces"@domain.com is valid |
| 11:41.38 | cbreak | I added one of those to my address pool on my server, and now I can't delete it anymore... |
| 11:41.40 | foxlit | emails are complicated bussiness. |
| 11:41.46 | cbreak | I think it somehow corrupted the system :) |
| 11:41.57 | nevcairiel | lol |
| 11:41.57 | Gnarfoz | cbreak: that's perfectly valid |
| 11:41.58 | zenzelezz | if I remember correctly, even {} are valid |
| 11:42.01 | Gnarfoz | quoted, neraly everything goes |
| 11:42.04 | Gnarfoz | *nearly |
| 11:42.18 | Gnarfoz | unquoted, there's quite a lot more than you usually see used |
| 11:42.41 | cbreak | It was actually "æ¥æ¬èª"@myserver.local |
| 11:42.52 | Gnarfoz | your encoding is bad |
| 11:42.57 | cbreak | it's utf-8 |
| 11:42.59 | nevcairiel | looks good to me |
| 11:43.00 | Gnarfoz | are you sending as utf8? |
| 11:43.03 | cbreak | yes |
| 11:43.04 | Gnarfoz | hm, weird? |
| 11:43.09 | Gnarfoz | then my font is bad oO |
| 11:43.16 | cbreak | does it contain kanji? |
| 11:43.27 | Gnarfoz | it's blocks of four 0' |
| 11:43.28 | Gnarfoz | it's blocks of four 0's |
| 11:43.29 | cbreak | if not, then you can't display them :) |
| 11:43.46 | Gnarfoz | my font certainly has some kanji/kana/cyrllic/korean blah |
| 11:43.49 | cbreak | should be 3 kanji only though |
| 11:43.52 | Gnarfoz | not the ones used there, though |
| 11:43.55 | Gnarfoz | oh, yeah, 3, not 4 |
| 11:43.58 | nevcairiel | i see 3 kanji runes there |
| 11:44.00 | Gnarfoz | sorry about that ^^ |
| 11:44.30 | nevcairiel | not that i would be able to identify them as kanji |
| 11:44.31 | nevcairiel | or anything |
| 11:44.35 | nevcairiel | but i see asian chars! |
| 11:44.38 | Gnarfoz | hm |
| 11:44.42 | cbreak | very common ones |
| 11:44.49 | cbreak | you can't spell japanese without them :) |
| 11:45.10 | Gnarfoz | isn't "japanese" spelled in kana? ^^ |
| 11:45.27 | Gnarfoz | also, suggest a font please? tried Arial, DejaVu & Consolas, none work oO |
| 11:45.30 | cbreak | kana: all letters |
| 11:45.43 | Gnarfoz | kana are syllables |
| 11:45.43 | cbreak | kanji: letters based on chinese word glyphs |
| 11:45.45 | nevcairiel | i actually have no idea what font i use |
| 11:46.02 | cbreak | hiragana & katakana: sylable alphabet |
| 11:46.14 | nevcairiel | but iirc, most font systems should be smart enough to pick a glyph from another font if it is not present in yoru current font |
| 11:46.22 | nevcairiel | at least windows does that, and i thought linux does to |
| 11:46.25 | cbreak | OS X has glyph substitution, I have no idea what font I use |
| 11:46.29 | Gnarfoz | you don't RC, nevcairiel |
| 11:46.34 | cbreak | but I have at least 4 with kanji |
| 11:46.49 | Gnarfoz | if x-chat uses the appropriate windows routines, then windows doesn't do that |
| 11:46.51 | nevcairiel | Gnarfoz: well, windows does it =P |
| 11:46.57 | nevcairiel | blame xchat |
| 11:46.58 | Gnarfoz | but it probably uses GTK/freetype shit |
| 11:47.12 | nevcairiel | my Qt client here does it fine |
| 11:47.14 | Gnarfoz | anyway, still looking for a font that works, what do you use? |
| 11:47.22 | nevcairiel | no idea, whatever is default |
| 11:47.23 | nevcairiel | checks |
| 11:47.37 | Fisker | slaps nevcairiel around a bit with a large trout |
| 11:47.41 | cbreak | OS X uses the Hiragino family |
| 11:47.47 | nevcairiel | font: normal 10pt "Monospace"; |
| 11:47.58 | Gnarfoz | that's linux :\ |
| 11:47.59 | nevcairiel | now whats the default monospace font? |
| 11:48.14 | Gnarfoz | most linux distros come with a font called "monospace" - it's not an alias ^^ |
| 11:48.21 | cbreak | Not sure if it's default, but Monaco is great |
| 11:48.30 | nevcairiel | its actually an alias on modern systems |
| 11:48.32 | foxlit | monaco is the default on osx. |
| 11:48.39 | nevcairiel | but this is still windows |
| 11:48.41 | Gnarfoz | still not caring about osx :p |
| 11:48.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (~funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 11:49.10 | nevcairiel | MS Shell Dlg 2, apparently |
| 11:49.11 | Gnarfoz | Adobe Ming! |
| 11:49.13 | Gnarfoz | that one works. ^^ |
| 11:49.19 | cbreak | ! |
| 11:49.32 | cbreak | you honestly paid adobe for fonts? They are so expensive :/ |
| 11:49.41 | Gnarfoz | I didn't claim I did |
| 11:49.42 | nevcairiel | probably came with photoshop |
| 11:49.51 | cbreak | ... which is totally affordable... |
| 11:49.57 | Gnarfoz | sure is, $0 |
| 11:50.01 | nevcairiel | like people buy that :d |
| 11:50.17 | Gnarfoz | at least I know that it's not irssi or xchat garbling the multibyte chars along the way |
| 11:50.41 | Gnarfoz | but it's very weird that Arial doesn't have those glyphs |
| 11:50.47 | Gnarfoz | if they're as common as you say they are |
| 11:50.55 | nevcairiel | doesnt x-chat have this broken hybrid mode for irc, where it accepts both utf8 and latin1? |
| 11:51.07 | Arrowmaster | only Arial Unicode has non latin glyphs |
| 11:51.08 | Gnarfoz | broken? IRC doesn't specify any encodings |
| 11:51.11 | foxlit | surely latin1 is utf8 |
| 11:51.16 | cbreak | my arial only supports Afrikaans, Albanian, Arabic, Azerbaijani, Basque, Belarusian, Bulgarian, Catalan, Cornish, Croatian, Czech, Danish, Dutch, English, Esperanto, Estonian, Faroese, Finnish, French, Galician, German, Greek, Hawaiian, Hebrew, Hungarian, Icelandic, Indonesian, Irish, Italian, Kalaallisut, Kazakh, Latvian, Lithuanian, Macedonian, Malay, Maltese, Manx, Norwegian Bokmål, Norwegian Nynorsk, Oromo, Pashto, Persian, Polish, |
| 11:51.16 | cbreak | Portuguese, Romanian, Russian, Serbian, Slovak, Slovenian, Somali, Spanish, Swahili, Swedish, Turkish, Ukrainian, Urdu, Uzbek, Vietnamese, Welsh. |
| 11:51.16 | foxlit | but utf8 is not latin1 |
| 11:51.18 | cbreak | not japanese. |
| 11:51.18 | Gnarfoz | Arrowmaster: totally not true? |
| 11:51.42 | cbreak | Oh, true, there's arial unicode |
| 11:51.44 | foxlit | ah, no, they use the high pages. |
| 11:51.51 | nevcairiel | You need to install the unicode fonts that come with MS Office for the full enjoyment |
| 11:52.10 | Gnarfoz | win7's arial has a ton of non-latin stuff, even japanese |
| 11:52.24 | Gnarfoz | but apparently not the ones cbreak used =) |
| 11:53.03 | *** join/#wowuidev Guardix (~Martin@188.178.100.163) |
| 11:53.22 | Gnarfoz | haha, my bad |
| 11:53.26 | Gnarfoz | charmap is tricking me |
| 11:54.56 | Gnarfoz | which leaves the question why xchat/freetype/gtk/whatever-else-is-involved isn't picking a replacement for Glyphs not present in my chosen default font |
| 11:55.09 | nevcairiel | probably gtk fails at it |
| 11:55.14 | Arrowmaster | because you are still using windows |
| 11:55.32 | nevcairiel | Qt on windows does it fine, its not a windows flaw :p |
| 11:55.50 | Arrowmaster | i dont think gtk has anything to do with it |
| 11:56.00 | *** join/#wowuidev Kronus (~Creek@67-197-86-216.rh3.dyn.cm.comporium.net) |
| 11:56.09 | cbreak | what ever glyph selection library he uses is responsible |
| 11:56.22 | Gnarfoz | that'd be freetype then, I take it |
| 11:56.24 | cbreak | freetype, apple's core font, microsofts what ever it is, ... |
| 11:56.40 | cbreak | I bet Qt uses the OS API on the OS it runs |
| 11:56.51 | Arrowmaster | its not freetype |
| 11:56.58 | Gnarfoz | what is it, then |
| 11:57.03 | Arrowmaster | windows |
| 11:57.10 | nevcairiel | like i said, Qt manages to use the windows APIs just fine |
| 11:57.12 | nevcairiel | GTK doesnt |
| 11:57.19 | nevcairiel | so either x-chat itself is broken, or GTK |
| 11:57.19 | Gnarfoz | if it was windows, it'd work |
| 11:57.21 | Fisker | nevcairiel though |
| 11:57.39 | Arrowmaster | Gnarfoz: i can name plenty of native windows apps that cant handle it either |
| 11:57.53 | Gnarfoz | Arrowmaster: xchat is not one of them for being not "a native windows app" |
| 11:57.58 | Arrowmaster | trust me its not xchat or gtk |
| 11:58.19 | nevcairiel | Maybe those "native" apps are just broken as well |
| 11:58.24 | nevcairiel | many people dont pay attention to unicode |
| 11:58.32 | Gnarfoz | why would xchat be using window's native mechanism for that at all? |
| 11:58.38 | Arrowmaster | because it works perfectly fine on linux, and linux uses fontconfig so gtk shouldnt be doing anything |
| 11:59.13 | Arrowmaster | nevcairiel: one of those apps i was thinking of is mIRC, fucking horrible unicode support |
| 11:59.15 | nevcairiel | so, since we dont have fotnconfig on windows, it has to use the windows APIs instead |
| 11:59.18 | Gnarfoz | saying "it works on linux" is a great way of saying "it's your fault you're using windows" which further translates into "ignore me" |
| 11:59.23 | Gnarfoz | :F |
| 11:59.39 | Gnarfoz | I'll look at the damn source and try figuring out what the hell it's doing |
| 11:59.43 | nevcairiel | Arrowmaster: that supports your point that its windows' fault how, exactly? |
| 12:00.11 | Arrowmaster | well im saying that gtk isnt doing the selection, maybe there is something where its not passing stuff correctly though but gtk is not responsible for the selection at all |
| 12:00.28 | nevcairiel | gtk is providing the UI elements |
| 12:00.31 | nevcairiel | doing the font rendering |
| 12:00.32 | Arrowmaster | which now that i think about it, pidgin on windows fails at unicode too |
| 12:00.42 | nevcairiel | .. which also uses gtk |
| 12:01.06 | Gnarfoz | it's not "failing at unicode" totally, just the glyph replacement doesn't seem to work. it displays unicode fine if the glyph is present in the current font |
| 12:01.26 | Gnarfoz | of course you could construe anything that's not 100% as "failing" but that's semantics ;) |
| 12:02.26 | cbreak | well, anyway |
| 12:02.33 | Arrowmaster | oh Qt has its own glyph replacement shit built into it that even overrides fontconfig on linux, so you cant use the Qt works on windows but GTK doesnt argument |
| 12:02.41 | cbreak | the e-mail address should be valid, but I think the e-mail server has problems with it |
| 12:02.48 | Gnarfoz | what kind of format is ".xz" o_O |
| 12:02.54 | Arrowmaster | whats the email server? |
| 12:03.05 | Arrowmaster | if you say exchange i will beat your ass |
| 12:03.11 | cbreak | don't know. it's not exchange. |
| 12:03.13 | Gnarfoz | that's not an email server |
| 12:03.14 | Gnarfoz | :D |
| 12:03.18 | cbreak | my shared hoster does that |
| 12:03.22 | nevcairiel | i had gentoo install xz-utils on me some time ago |
| 12:03.32 | Arrowmaster | Gnarfoz: lzma |
| 12:03.34 | nevcairiel | sounded like a lzma rthing |
| 12:03.36 | nevcairiel | -r |
| 12:03.50 | Gnarfoz | "lzma" is an algorithm, not a format of it's own o_O |
| 12:03.56 | Arrowmaster | right |
| 12:03.57 | Gnarfoz | because 7z is also lzma |
| 12:04.06 | Arrowmaster | theres 3 different formats that use lzma |
| 12:04.06 | nevcairiel | 7z is archiving + lzma |
| 12:04.09 | Gnarfoz | so... just different file headers again? :F |
| 12:04.26 | nevcairiel | there are also pure .lzma files |
| 12:04.27 | Gnarfoz | nevcairiel: it's the xchat source "tar"ball, so I guess xz does archiving, too |
| 12:04.38 | Arrowmaster | well there was .lzma but thats replaced by .xz now |
| 12:04.40 | nevcairiel | pure lzma files are like bz2 files |
| 12:04.43 | nevcairiel | can only zip one file |
| 12:04.56 | nevcairiel | so its a tarball that was compressed with it |
| 12:05.17 | Arrowmaster | cbreak: guessing you dont have shell access? |
| 12:05.23 | cbreak | nope. |
| 12:05.29 | Gnarfoz | that'd be a .txz/.tar.xz, then? it's not... or someone is doing un-taring transparently for me and hiding it ^^ |
| 12:05.48 | nevcairiel | maybe they invented a new archiving format as well |
| 12:05.51 | nevcairiel | which would be silly |
| 12:05.53 | nevcairiel | but oh well |
| 12:06.02 | Gnarfoz | idd |
| 12:06.04 | cbreak | I have an .sqmaildata in my home dir |
| 12:06.05 | Arrowmaster | also have you looked at your email headers on received emails? sometimes it will say the server name and version in there |
| 12:06.09 | cbreak | so probably... squirrelmail? |
| 12:06.21 | Arrowmaster | squirrelmail is not an MTA |
| 12:06.29 | Arrowmaster | its just an interface |
| 12:06.53 | Gnarfoz | uhm, just talk smtp to it, maybe it'll identify itself? |
| 12:07.18 | Gnarfoz | or check mail headers for "received:" lines that spill some info? |
| 12:07.40 | cbreak | my e-mail client even complains about it not being valid... :) |
| 12:07.46 | Gnarfoz | or lastly, the complicated route: ask your hoster :D |
| 12:07.49 | Arrowmaster | bad client |
| 12:08.03 | Gnarfoz | cbreak: well, that was the initial statement: software sucks at RFC822 |
| 12:08.18 | Arrowmaster | RFC822 isnt even valid anymore |
| 12:08.18 | Gnarfoz | servers and clients and intermediate apps alike :D |
| 12:08.25 | Gnarfoz | 2822 then |
| 12:08.30 | Gnarfoz | or whatever. |
| 12:08.34 | cbreak | I clicked on send-anyway, but it seems it could not be delivered |
| 12:08.40 | Gnarfoz | that part hasn't changed much in any of the following RFCs |
| 12:08.55 | cbreak | "550 550 No Such User Here" (state 14). |
| 12:09.21 | Fisker | slaps cbreak around a bit with a large trout |
| 12:09.38 | Gnarfoz | hehe, well |
| 12:09.50 | Gnarfoz | if it's a shared hoster, there's probably multiple components involved on their end |
| 12:09.53 | cbreak | Funny: from the sent e-mail header: To: =?utf-8?Q?=22=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=AC=E8=AA=9E=22@domainname.local?= |
| 12:09.55 | Gnarfoz | for handling virtual user mailboxes |
| 12:10.13 | Arrowmaster | your client sucks |
| 12:10.13 | cbreak | maybe it's some weird encoding Mail.app does. |
| 12:10.26 | Arrowmaster | your client is completely BROKEN |
| 12:10.27 | Gnarfoz | that doesn't look like a valid mail header line :D |
| 12:10.31 | Arrowmaster | its not |
| 12:10.34 | cbreak | yeah... :) |
| 12:10.37 | Arrowmaster | BROKEN! |
| 12:10.57 | Gnarfoz | b0rked? |
| 12:11.21 | Gnarfoz | also, shopping for cars is kind of complicated when you don't have a car to do the shopping |
| 12:11.24 | Gnarfoz | :F |
| 12:11.37 | Arrowmaster | not b0rked, its "drag the developer out into the middle of the street and shoot him" broken |
| 12:11.47 | Arrowmaster | Gnarfoz: been there |
| 12:11.48 | Gnarfoz | it's from Apple *shrug* |
| 12:12.15 | Arrowmaster | ok "drag Steve out into the middle of the street and shoot him" |
| 12:12.17 | cbreak | are you sure it's broken? With normal e-mail addresses it works :) |
| 12:12.24 | Arrowmaster | yes its broken |
| 12:12.25 | cbreak | I don't think he can code. |
| 12:12.32 | cbreak | he's not a developer |
| 12:12.36 | *** join/#wowuidev MoonWitch (~Kelly@d51A4DB5F.access.telenet.be) |
| 12:12.39 | Gnarfoz | btw, only one file in x-chat's entire source mentions "glyph" - xtext.c; uses gdk_draw_glyphs and pango_glyph_string_extents |
| 12:12.42 | Arrowmaster | To: headers should never fucking be encoded like that |
| 12:12.56 | Arrowmaster | somebody totally fucked it up |
| 12:14.19 | cbreak | my from header is encoded similarly. And it seems to work. |
| 12:14.30 | Arrowmaster | maybe you should send an email to apple and link them their own html5 'standards' page and say 'why the fuck cant you get email right you fucking retarded monkeys, its even been a standard for fucking 20 some years unlike html5 which isnt even a standard yet' |
| 12:15.44 | cbreak | it's not apple |
| 12:16.06 | cbreak | I've looked through my mailbox, and several other e-mails I received were formated similarly |
| 12:17.38 | Gnarfoz | from apple users, certainly! |
| 12:18.07 | Arrowmaster | http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5322#section-3.4 |
| 12:18.08 | Arrowmaster | see this? |
| 12:18.28 | Arrowmaster | that address-list one is the only thing thats allowed in a To: header |
| 12:18.51 | Arrowmaster | =?utf-8? escaping is not allowed |
| 12:19.00 | Gnarfoz | Arrowmaster: how did you solve the "so many cars, but so few I can reach to check out without going to a lot of trouble w/ trains or asking people with cars to help you out" situation? |
| 12:19.29 | Arrowmaster | this is why i want to fucking nuke email from orbit and just fucking rewrite all the god damn standards and fuck backwards compatibility |
| 12:19.57 | cbreak | Arrowmaster: maybe you use a client that doesn't support MIME |
| 12:19.57 | foxlit | Arrowmaster: and with Facebook(tm), you can. |
| 12:20.06 | Gnarfoz | cbreak: MIME is not for inside the headers |
| 12:20.22 | foxlit | Just forgo all communication save for FB wall messages. Or something. |
| 12:20.22 | Gnarfoz | Arrowmaster: just use XMPP for everything, abandon the rest? ^^ |
| 12:20.40 | cbreak | Gnarfoz: not exclusively |
| 12:20.44 | cbreak | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIME#Encoded-Word, read it |
| 12:20.53 | Maldivia | Arrowmaster: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5335#section-4.4 there you go :) |
| 12:21.53 | cbreak | Arrowmaster: maybe you should get a client that's newer than 14 years :) |
| 12:22.09 | Arrowmaster | i dont even have an email client currently |
| 12:22.20 | cbreak | but I admit, apple was always faster with implementing standards than other vendors |
| 12:22.35 | Gnarfoz | cbreak: kind of ambiguous about if that can be used in any part of the headers or just some of them, though |
| 12:22.38 | Arrowmaster | too lazy to set one up since i built this computer |
| 12:22.38 | Arrowmaster | i just said fuck it |
| 12:22.59 | Arrowmaster | ive seen that used in Subject: a lot |
| 12:23.08 | Gnarfoz | well, makes sense for subject, of course |
| 12:23.16 | cbreak | or from, to... |
| 12:23.26 | cbreak | it's not like all names can be written in ascii |
| 12:23.51 | cbreak | I find building computers tiresome |
| 12:23.53 | Gnarfoz | no, but since "the internet" was historically a US invention, that's what 90% of software expects to see |
| 12:23.56 | cbreak | I spend my time on building software :) |
| 12:24.07 | cbreak | Gnarfoz: that's what http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2047 is used for :) |
| 12:24.22 | Gnarfoz | MIME existing is not a counter-argument to what I said |
| 12:24.34 | Arrowmaster | looking at that rfc5335 it seems thats for IDN type stuff but the local part still needs to be quoted |
| 12:24.50 | ZorbaBeta | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjOZtWZ56lc |
| 12:24.56 | Gnarfoz | MIME should fucking die and software should be made to handle unicode properly, but hey, I'm usually the one to ridicule idealists, so... |
| 12:26.15 | cbreak | Gnarfoz: since the internet was built with only ascii in mind, hacks have been made to extend that |
| 12:26.22 | cbreak | hacks like utf-8, or the other stuff |
| 12:26.30 | Gnarfoz | since when is utf-8 a hack? |
| 12:26.35 | cbreak | yay for backwards compatibility |
| 12:26.41 | Gnarfoz | well, utf-16 then |
| 12:27.47 | Arrowmaster | fuck utf-16 |
| 12:27.48 | cbreak | From the RFC: "An 'encoded-word' MUST NOT appear in any portion of an 'addr-spec'." |
| 12:28.07 | cbreak | I wonder if the contents of From: and To: are addr-spec or text |
| 12:28.44 | Gnarfoz | well, that should be in the rfc! :D |
| 12:28.58 | Gnarfoz | Arrowmaster: why? at least it's consistently multibyte ;) |
| 12:28.59 | Arrowmaster | http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2822#section-3.6.2 |
| 12:29.10 | Arrowmaster | http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2822#section-3.6.3 |
| 12:29.36 | Arrowmaster | Gnarfoz: but you cant even fit the entire unicode spec in utf-16 |
| 12:29.43 | *** join/#wowuidev Slackwise_ (~slackwise@c-98-228-240-33.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 12:30.07 | Gnarfoz | well, expand unicode to define an actual encoding, then |
| 12:31.23 | cbreak | seems they can be addr-spec, but don't have to be. |
| 12:31.50 | Arrowmaster | did you read what i linked? |
| 12:31.55 | Arrowmaster | they are address-list |
| 12:31.57 | Arrowmaster | nothing else |
| 12:32.09 | cbreak | did you read what you posted? |
| 12:32.15 | Gnarfoz | 2822 is not current btw |
| 12:32.20 | cbreak | address-list is a list of addresses |
| 12:32.51 | Arrowmaster | wait why did i link 2822 |
| 12:32.54 | cbreak | which can be mailbox or group. mailbox can be name-addr or addr-spec |
| 12:32.55 | Gnarfoz | 5335 updates 2822 in regards to exactly what we are talking about, which is why Maldivia linked it |
| 12:33.11 | cbreak | so it's not always addr-spec |
| 12:33.28 | cbreak | which is what I said above |
| 12:33.52 | Gnarfoz | just create RFC10000 which requires every component along the way to handle unquoted/unescaped UTF-something and be done with it, heh |
| 12:33.55 | Arrowmaster | http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5322#section-3.6.2 |
| 12:33.59 | Arrowmaster | http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5322#section-3.6.3 |
| 12:34.41 | cbreak | which utf? :) |
| 12:35.02 | Arrowmaster | 5335 cant update 2822, 2822 was already obsoleted by 5322 |
| 12:35.40 | *** join/#wowuidev Lothaer (~jamiecook@122.49.144.117) |
| 12:35.45 | Gnarfoz | cbreak: one that Arrowmaster doesn't complain about, preferably, otherwise, utf8 |
| 12:35.49 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Lothaer] by ChanServ |
| 12:35.56 | Lothaer | hey all |
| 12:36.34 | Gnarfoz | Arrowmaster: since all of those are not "standards" but "request for comments", it certainly can (necessarily ignoring the existance, or relevance, of 5322 ^^) |
| 12:36.52 | cbreak | Just tried gmail as alternative e-mail client |
| 12:36.59 | cbreak | sending didn't work with the same error |
| 12:37.15 | Arrowmaster | then its the server |
| 12:37.16 | Gnarfoz | along the lines of "I don't care that you wrote 5322, I don't like it, hence I'm updating 2822" |
| 12:37.21 | cbreak | exactly |
| 12:37.38 | cbreak | but gmail's encoding of the dst address was weird |
| 12:37.57 | cbreak | To: "?????????"@the-domain.net |
| 12:37.57 | Gnarfoz | cbreak: did you HELO to the server to see if it reports its software? or checked headers of non-problematic mails? |
| 12:37.58 | Arrowmaster | gmail doesnt default to utf8 you have to change that in the settings |
| 12:38.38 | cbreak | I changed that some time ago |
| 12:38.46 | Arrowmaster | good man |
| 12:39.01 | Arrowmaster | you said its a 550 error though? does the account even exist on the server? |
| 12:39.52 | cbreak | it does |
| 12:39.55 | cbreak | I can't delete it... |
| 12:40.14 | Arrowmaster | server seems to disagree |
| 12:40.15 | cbreak | I think there's a problem in the script for mailbox management |
| 12:40.25 | Arrowmaster | sounds like it |
| 12:40.28 | Arrowmaster | is it cpanel? |
| 12:40.31 | cbreak | oh, gmail of course didn't encode the e-mail address right |
| 12:40.34 | Arrowmaster | or some cpanel like ripoff? |
| 12:40.45 | cbreak | it's "æ¥æ¬èª", not "?????????" |
| 12:40.52 | cbreak | I think so |
| 12:41.12 | Arrowmaster | hope your not paying much for that shared host |
| 12:41.25 | Gnarfoz | cool, it's "[box of 4 zeros][box of 4 zeros][box of 4 zeros]" not "questionmarkquestionmarkquestionmarkquestionmarkquestionmarkquestionmarkquestionmarkquestionmarkquestionmark" |
| 12:41.26 | cbreak | not too much. |
| 12:41.41 | cbreak | It includes 10gb of disk space and "unlimited" traffic, so I am happy. |
| 12:41.47 | Gnarfoz | it's 2010 and this shit doesn't work universally, that's just sad. |
| 12:42.04 | cbreak | Gnarfoz: blame your software :) |
| 12:42.15 | cbreak | you could see beautiful kanji if you had one that'd work :) |
| 12:42.32 | Gnarfoz | guess what I just did? |
| 12:42.32 | Arrowmaster | unlimited "unlimited", or "unlimited until you actually use it then we close your account" |
| 12:42.42 | haste | I see "nihongo" just fine here >:3 |
| 12:42.55 | Gnarfoz | I blamed software (what else would I be blaming? maybe software standards) that it doesn't work |
| 12:43.30 | cbreak | they write "unlimited means we won't ever charge you for going over any limit, but it does not mean you can use an unreasonable ammount of traffic. We will contact you in any case before taking action" |
| 12:43.31 | Kalroth | haste: same here! |
| 12:43.44 | Gnarfoz | well, then neither of you're using x-chat on windows! :) |
| 12:43.48 | Kalroth | I am :) |
| 12:43.59 | Kalroth | version 2.0.10c even, its ancient |
| 12:44.03 | Gnarfoz | well, now things are getting even weirder |
| 12:44.19 | Kalroth | edit your server settings and set character set to UTF-8 |
| 12:44.25 | Kalroth | reconnect and voila |
| 12:44.28 | Gnarfoz | did that 8 years ago. |
| 12:44.28 | haste | Gnarfoz: a friend of mine has no problem with multi-byte characters with x-chat on windows |
| 12:44.38 | Gnarfoz | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:44.39 | Kalroth | no you lie |
| 12:44.57 | Kalroth | which windows version? |
| 12:45.01 | Gnarfoz | 6.1 |
| 12:45.04 | Arrowmaster | what font are you using? |
| 12:45.09 | cbreak | I don't think the kernel is the problem... |
| 12:45.13 | haste | and if you see boxes, then I'd guess your font or font fallback is screwede |
| 12:45.14 | Kalroth | :P |
| 12:45.16 | Gnarfoz | Consolas, but the point is that it should PICK ANOTHER ONE if my font doesn't have the glyph. |
| 12:45.19 | haste | s/$e// |
| 12:45.22 | haste | fail match~ |
| 12:45.26 | Kalroth | Monospace 10 |
| 12:45.32 | Kalroth | Consolas suxxxx |
| 12:45.36 | Gnarfoz | "Monospace" is not a font that comes with windows. |
| 12:45.39 | haste | consolas displays kanji just fine in putty at least |
| 12:45.40 | Kalroth | wut |
| 12:45.46 | Gnarfoz | haste: I'm aware |
| 12:46.02 | haste | if it doesn't in x-chat, but others do -- then I'd say it's a GTK bug |
| 12:46.07 | cbreak | doesn't the x in xchat imply that it uses X? |
| 12:46.20 | Kalroth | no the x means its cool |
| 12:46.34 | Gnarfoz | well, the only mention of "glyph" in the source is gdk something and pango something |
| 12:46.38 | MoonWitch | it is a GTK bug |
| 12:46.41 | Gnarfoz | not sure what else I should be looking for. |
| 12:46.48 | MoonWitch | same issue as I've got with the ' accent thing |
| 12:46.51 | Kalroth | Gnarfoz: well I dont know where I got Monospace from then, since it isnt in the xchat folder and I didn't install any fonts |
| 12:46.56 | nevcairiel | pango is the font rendering lib that gtk uses |
| 12:46.57 | nevcairiel | fwiw |
| 12:47.03 | Gnarfoz | Kalroth: it's entirely not he point, anyway |
| 12:47.09 | Kalroth | why not? |
| 12:47.23 | nevcairiel | monospace is an alias to use the default monospace font |
| 12:47.29 | Gnarfoz | because I should be able to use a 52-letter, no-numbers present font |
| 12:47.31 | nevcairiel | windows doesnt show it in the font selector |
| 12:47.35 | nevcairiel | but some apis accept it |
| 12:47.36 | nevcairiel | iirc |
| 12:47.37 | Kalroth | nevcairiel: ah |
| 12:47.50 | nevcairiel | like, it maps to MS Shell Dlg 2 for me |
| 12:47.52 | Gnarfoz | what nevcairiel said is not what I meant |
| 12:47.52 | nevcairiel | whatever font that is |
| 12:47.56 | Kalroth | Gnarfoz: So you think it should magically find another font if your current font is lacking? |
| 12:48.04 | Gnarfoz | Kalroth: indeed, that's what it's supposed to do |
| 12:48.07 | Kalroth | ............ |
| 12:48.19 | Gnarfoz | what? it works for you and others |
| 12:48.23 | cbreak | Kalroth: mac os x does that |
| 12:48.33 | nevcairiel | Windows does that too, apparently just not in x-chat |
| 12:48.34 | cbreak | it's called "Glyph Substitution" |
| 12:48.35 | Gnarfoz | it KNOWS if a certain glyph is present or not |
| 12:49.08 | Kalroth | dunno how you broke your installation then :) |
| 12:49.11 | Gnarfoz | so your ancient xchat version working rather points to your chosen font containing the appropriate glyphs, rather than glyphs substitution working :^ |
| 12:49.38 | Kalroth | any way to see which font i really am using, nev? |
| 12:49.47 | cbreak | or... maybe.. |
| 12:49.53 | nevcairiel | when i open the font selector, it has the one i use selected |
| 12:49.53 | Gnarfoz | "monospace" maps to something that works for me, too, btw. but it's fugly. :D |
| 12:49.56 | cbreak | Gnarfoz, your font could contain the glyphs... as 0! |
| 12:50.09 | nevcairiel | the real one, that is |
| 12:50.13 | Gnarfoz | cbreak: it's not "0", it's a quadratic box containing 2 pairs of stacked 0's |
| 12:50.15 | Kalroth | nevcairiel: yes it selects monospace for me :p |
| 12:50.20 | cbreak | oh |
| 12:50.23 | Gnarfoz | which is the symbol for "sorry, I don't contain this glyph" |
| 12:50.43 | nevcairiel | If you have monospace in the list (on windows), you have a font with that name |
| 12:50.51 | nevcairiel | on linux, you would have to check fontconfig |
| 12:50.53 | Gnarfoz | no, because it's a GTK font selector |
| 12:50.56 | Gnarfoz | not a windows one |
| 12:51.10 | Kalroth | yeah, it's not the windows font dialog |
| 12:51.10 | Gnarfoz | starts to hate UI toolkits |
| 12:51.25 | nevcairiel | Its just GTK re-inventing every dialog <.< |
| 12:51.32 | nevcairiel | use default OS dialogs if they are present! |
| 12:51.36 | wereHamster | yeah, it's easier to use X11 directly.. |
| 12:51.43 | Gnarfoz | that's not very cross-platform, nevcairiel! :D |
| 12:51.53 | Gnarfoz | (hint, hint) |
| 12:52.03 | Arrowmaster | you mean like java? |
| 12:52.04 | nevcairiel | so the dialogs look different on every platform |
| 12:52.09 | nevcairiel | but they look better, still! |
| 12:52.17 | cbreak | Qt is nice |
| 12:52.24 | Gnarfoz | they should look on every platform as that platform looks |
| 12:52.25 | Arrowmaster | i hate Qt |
| 12:52.26 | nevcairiel | I like Qt as a UI toolkit |
| 12:52.26 | cbreak | Cocoa is nice, if you don't mind it being rather unportable |
| 12:52.33 | Kalroth | nevcairiel: http://acdev.org/silly_xchat.png |
| 12:52.39 | nevcairiel | however, i hate that it tries to be its own all-purpose C++ framework |
| 12:52.41 | Gnarfoz | they should not look like the toolkit the app uses |
| 12:52.43 | Kalroth | the font isnt even the same :p |
| 12:53.01 | nevcairiel | try ms shell dlg 2 :P |
| 12:53.15 | cbreak | Qt has some nice non-gui things |
| 12:53.19 | Kalroth | @#¤%! |
| 12:53.21 | nevcairiel | thats the default monospace thing |
| 12:53.29 | cbreak | just compare QDateTime with boost::date_time |
| 12:53.34 | Gnarfoz | ms shell dlg 2 is a 15 year old bitmap font btw |
| 12:53.42 | Kalroth | i dont have that one, nev |
| 12:53.44 | Gnarfoz | it's not even TT or OTT or anything |
| 12:53.45 | cbreak | I spent half a day reading how the boost version works... and I still don't get it |
| 12:54.07 | cbreak | the boost threading api is also much lower level than Qt's. But at least it's easy to use |
| 12:54.41 | Arrowmaster | werent they talking about just making boost be C++0x |
| 12:54.51 | cbreak | oh... I hope not... |
| 12:55.01 | cbreak | some things are nice, but others are so... complicated |
| 12:55.05 | cbreak | like date_time... :/ |
| 12:55.18 | cbreak | I think they just like to make things generic without much purpose |
| 12:55.29 | nevcairiel | interesting though |
| 12:55.35 | nevcairiel | i dont see that ms shell dlg 2 in my font dir |
| 12:55.45 | nevcairiel | wonder wtf its actually using |
| 12:55.49 | Kalroth | lol |
| 12:55.59 | cbreak | nevcairiel: what OS? |
| 12:56.02 | Kalroth | fucking font aliases, how do they work |
| 12:56.05 | cbreak | some might have more than one font directory |
| 12:56.06 | nevcairiel | 7 |
| 12:56.13 | Kalroth | i got win 7 too |
| 12:56.22 | cbreak | OS X has a personal, a system and a global one at least |
| 12:56.28 | cbreak | windows probably too |
| 12:56.53 | nevcairiel | how are system and global seperate? |
| 12:57.11 | cbreak | system is in /System/Library/Fonts and should not be touched by users |
| 12:57.19 | cbreak | the global one is in /Library/Fonts |
| 12:57.21 | nevcairiel | also, ive never heard about seperate font dirs on windows |
| 12:57.27 | cbreak | applications you install can put fonts in there |
| 12:57.52 | cbreak | there's ~/Library/Fonts if you want to install fonts for yourself |
| 12:58.06 | Gnarfoz | just checked around a bit: the only font that looks like what I get when I select "Monospace" is "DejaVu Sans Mono" (which, itself, is a clone of Bitstream Vara Sans Mono, IIRC) BUT the kanji only show correctly with "Monospace", not with "DejaVu Sans Mono" T_T |
| 12:58.20 | cbreak | doesn't windows have this special userspace directory system? |
| 12:58.35 | cbreak | like the one where it puts addons so that windows 7 users can't find it anymore? |
| 12:58.42 | Kalroth | you can register a font anywhere on Windows |
| 12:58.48 | Gnarfoz | only if you let win7 do UAC virutalization for your app. |
| 12:58.59 | Gnarfoz | which it doesn't do for stuff installed outside of C:\Program Files\ |
| 12:59.09 | Kalroth | Adobe got a fuckload of fonts in their own folders |
| 12:59.17 | Kalroth | and I got those available in xchat |
| 12:59.33 | Gnarfoz | and yeah, fonts can be anywhere, they're registered in the Registry anyway. the only "official" dir is C:\Windows\Fonts\ though. |
| 12:59.44 | Kalroth | yes |
| 12:59.51 | cbreak | hmm. |
| 13:00.05 | cbreak | MS really likes the registry |
| 13:00.17 | Gnarfoz | of course they do, it's how their OS works ;) |
| 13:00.26 | cbreak | "Works" |
| 13:00.28 | Gnarfoz | (mind you, OSX is going that direction as well) |
| 13:00.36 | cbreak | nah |
| 13:00.38 | Gnarfoz | yeah. |
| 13:00.40 | cbreak | OS X has tones of flat files |
| 13:00.44 | cbreak | not one single binary blob |
| 13:00.47 | Gnarfoz | that doesn't mean they're not going there. |
| 13:01.15 | cbreak | apple seems to like sqlite databases lately too |
| 13:01.23 | Gnarfoz | anyway: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH UNICODE |
| 13:01.25 | nevcairiel | honestly, usually its easier to find something in the registry then some text file in some remote place |
| 13:01.40 | cbreak | the problem isnt' to find something |
| 13:01.44 | cbreak | but to find the right thing |
| 13:02.02 | cbreak | the registry seems to be a totally unmaintainable chaos |
| 13:02.09 | cbreak | apps write their stuff all over the place |
| 13:02.28 | cbreak | at least on OS X, every app has a place they are supposed to write to |
| 13:02.40 | nevcairiel | supposed sounds like no-one cares |
| 13:02.47 | cbreak | nah, it's not windows |
| 13:02.50 | cbreak | most care :) |
| 13:03.10 | nevcairiel | there is also HKLM\Software\$vendor\$product |
| 13:03.12 | cbreak | the only ones I've seen that don't seem to care were the Steam app |
| 13:03.18 | nevcairiel | and HKCU for user-specific things |
| 13:03.33 | cbreak | and I think blizzard |
| 13:03.40 | cbreak | and some other app I forgot |
| 13:04.02 | Gnarfoz | uhm... |
| 13:04.07 | cbreak | nevcairiel: where are uninstall entries? |
| 13:04.10 | cbreak | does it make sense? |
| 13:04.27 | Gnarfoz | define "the uninstall entries"? |
| 13:04.27 | cbreak | I've looked at registry keys some installers generate for their products as part of my job last year |
| 13:04.29 | nevcairiel | in the central uninstall registry |
| 13:04.29 | cbreak | it was terrible |
| 13:04.49 | nevcairiel | much easier then to find each apps individual uninstall entry in their own place |
| 13:04.58 | Gnarfoz | they're most likely in Windows' (hence: HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion somewhere) list of installed software? |
| 13:04.59 | cbreak | they are in their own place :/ |
| 13:05.34 | Arrowmaster | and then there are the registry keys things make when they are intentionally trying to hide things from you, like their date of first usage on time limited shareware, or copy protection programs like securerom |
| 13:05.53 | Gnarfoz | securom doesn't need or use registry keys. |
| 13:06.03 | cbreak | The registry is at least 10 times as much chaos as any other system I've seen |
| 13:06.03 | nevcairiel | I'm sure shareware apps on every system hide stuff in weird places |
| 13:06.06 | Gnarfoz | it's a hardware protection mechanism :p |
| 13:06.07 | cbreak | probably more than 10 times |
| 13:06.15 | Arrowmaster | wasnt it the one that created the undeleteable registry key? |
| 13:06.32 | Gnarfoz | I know I created some of those by accident. ;p |
| 13:06.43 | nevcairiel | honestly, i can't manage all dot files and dirs in my linux user profile |
| 13:06.51 | nevcairiel | most stuff is just there for no reason that i can see |
| 13:06.51 | Gnarfoz | but securom was all about copy-protection for CDs, by using "bad" sectors |
| 13:06.52 | cbreak | sure you can |
| 13:06.58 | Arrowmaster | nevcairiel: this is why xdg exists |
| 13:07.21 | Gnarfoz | that a tool has been created to manage the mess doesn't make the mess any less bad |
| 13:07.24 | cbreak | since unlike crappy windows apps, most unix/osx apps (all I've seen), don't rely on their existence |
| 13:07.55 | Gnarfoz | I've not seen many windows apps that fail to work if their registry keys are gone, lately |
| 13:07.59 | cbreak | every app has it's own file. you can delete it, you can read it |
| 13:08.09 | Gnarfoz | they just recreate them and fall back to defaults |
| 13:08.21 | nevcairiel | having 1000 files isnt easier then having a registry with 1000 entries |
| 13:08.23 | Gnarfoz | which is exactly what *nix apps would do |
| 13:08.26 | cbreak | Gnarfoz: why do they use installers? Because they need it :/ |
| 13:08.30 | Gnarfoz | cbreak: what |
| 13:08.43 | cbreak | every time I deleted the registry (once), windows failed to even boot |
| 13:08.46 | Gnarfoz | cbreak: installers are mainly there to COPY FILES |
| 13:08.50 | nevcairiel | linux apps also have make install |
| 13:08.51 | nevcairiel | shrug |
| 13:09.00 | Arrowmaster | seen plenty of windows apps that crap out if their registry entries are missing |
| 13:09.10 | Gnarfoz | cbreak: deleting the registry is like rm -r /etc |
| 13:09.17 | Gnarfoz | I'm sure linux wouldn't boot if you did that |
| 13:09.22 | cbreak | I don't know |
| 13:09.23 | nevcairiel | indeed, it wouldn't |
| 13:09.27 | cbreak | not tried that yet :) |
| 13:09.28 | Arrowmaster | it would |
| 13:10.20 | Gnarfoz | /etc is Linux' "registry" if you will |
| 13:10.20 | nevcairiel | up to some point |
| 13:10.21 | Arrowmaster | you probably just wouldnt like how much it booted |
| 13:10.21 | nevcairiel | login would probably break |
| 13:10.21 | nevcairiel | it would boot the kernel, surely |
| 13:10.21 | cbreak | nah... |
| 13:10.21 | nevcairiel | everything else.. |
| 13:10.21 | Gnarfoz | added on top of that dot-files sprinkled all over the system and you have Linux's representation of Windows' Registry :D |
| 13:10.21 | cbreak | login would work. for all the 0 users that have an account |
| 13:10.46 | Gnarfoz | not that apps on windows can't do the same, nobody's forcing you to use the registry |
| 13:10.49 | Kalroth | worst discussion ever, even Fisker could pick a better subject! |
| 13:11.22 | Gnarfoz | Kalroth: fix my unicode problems! |
| 13:11.22 | cbreak | he didn't |
| 13:11.22 | Kalroth | Gnarfoz: use a proper font! |
| 13:11.24 | Gnarfoz | Kalroth: the font is not the problem, cf haste |
| 13:11.33 | Kalroth | haste is haste |
| 13:11.41 | *** join/#wowuidev A-KO (~sa@c-69-142-79-26.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 13:11.41 | *** join/#wowuidev A-KO (~sa@unaffiliated/a-ko) |
| 13:11.56 | Kalroth | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z52MqK2KPtI&hd=1 |
| 13:12.12 | Gnarfoz | Kalroth: haha, screenshot inc |
| 13:16.23 | Gnarfoz | http://geektour.de/~smallbrain/unicode_madness.png |
| 13:16.43 | Gnarfoz | hm |
| 13:16.57 | Gnarfoz | wait a minute, why is putty not using consolas, and why didn't I notice until I pasted the link |
| 13:17.27 | Kalroth | looks like putty is using monospace 10 :P |
| 13:17.27 | Arrowmaster | putty doesnt do glyph replacement either |
| 13:17.46 | Arrowmaster | so the font putty is using must have the glyphs |
| 13:18.01 | Gnarfoz | Kalroth: there is no "monospace" |
| 13:18.15 | Kalroth | you're on windows, there's an alias with that name |
| 13:18.22 | Gnarfoz | Kalroth: that's Courier New 11, and I'm re-doing the screenshot, because even after changing to Consolas, it still works. |
| 13:18.26 | Gnarfoz | in Putty, that is. |
| 13:18.41 | Arrowmaster | dear god i can tell youve got cleartype on |
| 13:18.44 | Gnarfoz | Kalroth: no. Monospace maps to something that I can't find in xchat |
| 13:18.48 | Gnarfoz | Arrowmaster: of course you can. |
| 13:18.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Pneumatus^ (~WiN@81.174.255.130) |
| 13:18.58 | Arrowmaster | i hate cleartype because of shit like that |
| 13:19.09 | Gnarfoz | Arrowmaster: blah blah blah |
| 13:19.14 | Arrowmaster | showing up in fucking screenshots |
| 13:19.28 | Gnarfoz | <Arrowmaster> so the font putty is using must have the glyphs <-- either it does glyph substitution or you're wrong. |
| 13:19.44 | Kalroth | wut |
| 13:19.45 | Arrowmaster | last time i used putty it didnt |
| 13:19.50 | cbreak | cleartype is subpixel antialiasing? |
| 13:19.58 | Arrowmaster | yes |
| 13:20.01 | Gnarfoz | cbreak: yes |
| 13:20.12 | cbreak | natural that it shows up in screenshots |
| 13:20.26 | nevcairiel | the linux cleartype-thing would too |
| 13:20.46 | cbreak | AA happens during rasterisation, screenshots are usually taken from the result of composing |
| 13:21.05 | nevcairiel | Gnarfoz: in what secret channels do you idle that you remove them from the screenshot? =P |
| 13:21.09 | Gnarfoz | http://geektour.de/~smallbrain/unicode_madness2.png |
| 13:21.09 | Arrowmaster | hates all subpixel antialiasing |
| 13:21.41 | Gnarfoz | that's Consolas 11 in both X-Chat and Putty |
| 13:21.52 | Kalroth | so you broke xchat |
| 13:21.58 | Gnarfoz | so it's clearly something wrong with xchat or something xchat uses to do its bidding |
| 13:22.17 | nevcairiel | pango is the font rendering lib |
| 13:22.18 | Arrowmaster | maybe its just your xchat build |
| 13:22.24 | Gnarfoz | Arrowmaster: well, it might. |
| 13:22.27 | Gnarfoz | :F |
| 13:22.38 | Gnarfoz | might *be*, too |
| 13:24.47 | Gnarfoz | brb |
| 13:25.55 | Arrowmaster | im going to sleep |
| 13:26.06 | nevcairiel | good luck with that |
| 13:27.34 | Gnarfoz | yay |
| 13:27.46 | Gnarfoz | official xchat win32 build, the shareware one |
| 13:27.58 | nevcairiel | that one works? |
| 13:28.21 | Gnarfoz | no, just saying I quickly installed that and am using it now |
| 13:28.27 | *** join/#wowuidev foxlit (~foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 13:28.31 | Gnarfoz | could someone paste those evil kanji? ;) |
| 13:28.47 | nevcairiel | <cbreak> it's "æ¥æ¬èª", not "?????????" |
| 13:29.00 | Gnarfoz | yay it werks |
| 13:29.08 | Gnarfoz | which is kind of unbelievable |
| 13:29.25 | nevcairiel | someone doing your 3rd party build probably failed |
| 13:29.25 | cbreak | so it was your client :) |
| 13:29.47 | Gnarfoz | nevcairiel, I wonder how bad you'd need to fail to do that |
| 13:29.59 | nevcairiel | just soem wrong flags when building pango or gtk will do it |
| 13:30.02 | haste | Gnarfoz: so what was the issue? |
| 13:30.13 | Gnarfoz | but then, the way GTK is integrated into xchat is exactly one of the things that differentiates Zed's xchat build from all others |
| 13:30.29 | Gnarfoz | (fucker, I still think he's violating all kinds of GPL rules with this) |
| 13:30.43 | cbreak | who? |
| 13:30.46 | nevcairiel | why? what he do? |
| 13:30.50 | Gnarfoz | cbreak, author of xchat |
| 13:30.52 | *** join/#wowuidev Marla (~Marla@fabe.xs4all.nl) |
| 13:31.02 | Gnarfoz | nevcairiel, make the windows version shareware and not share the appropriate source? ;) |
| 13:31.03 | cbreak | the author can't violate the license |
| 13:31.14 | cbreak | he owns the copyright, he can give himself any licesne he wants |
| 13:31.15 | Gnarfoz | cbreak, he certainly can, because code was contributed to the project |
| 13:31.16 | haste | Gnarfoz: the source is available, so he doesn't |
| 13:31.34 | Gnarfoz | haste, no, the source for HIS windows version is not freely available. |
| 13:31.42 | Gnarfoz | why would there be custom win32 builds of xchat if it were |
| 13:31.55 | Gnarfoz | none of them use his kind of gtk integration |
| 13:31.57 | haste | I thought the reason for the shareware x-chat was the build process |
| 13:32.05 | nevcairiel | gpl does allow you to charge for the effort in building and distribution |
| 13:32.15 | Gnarfoz | yeah, because he doesn't share the way he's doing it =) |
| 13:32.17 | nevcairiel | guess no-one ever challenged the other things |
| 13:32.20 | ZorbaBeta | haste, "the build process" is really a BS reason. any competent coder puts that in a script |
| 13:32.23 | ZorbaBeta | he types one command, it works. |
| 13:32.36 | nevcairiel | it also works on linux without any big issues |
| 13:32.36 | ZorbaBeta | it's an excuse to charge money for it. |
| 13:32.38 | haste | ZorbaBeta: yes ofc, but he needs to write the script once :P |
| 13:32.42 | Gnarfoz | point is, he's not sharing the entirety of the code, albeit saying it's all under GPL |
| 13:32.58 | foxlit | It's all under GPL for *you*? |
| 13:33.01 | haste | ZorbaBeta: do note that based on "how to build this on windows" thingies I see, it can be quite the process compared to linux |
| 13:33.08 | Gnarfoz | plus, the contributions he got were under GPL, too, and he's saying "until someone steps forward and complains, I'm going to go on" |
| 13:33.15 | foxlit | Should you somehow modify and redistribute it, you'll end up having to share *your* modifications |
| 13:33.20 | ZorbaBeta | foxlit, if he's gotten contributions under the GPL license, then he is bound by the GPL license as well. |
| 13:33.34 | foxlit | ZorbaBeta: surely not to the components the source of which has not been released. |
| 13:33.44 | ZorbaBeta | Especially those. That's the entire purpose of the GPL license. |
| 13:34.05 | ZorbaBeta | If he releases binaries that include GPL'ed source that he does not own the license to, then he is legally required to provide the entire sourcecode for his binaries, under the GPL. |
| 13:34.12 | foxlit | The argument, is, if I'm reading it correctly, "It integrates with GTK, where's my source?!" |
| 13:34.28 | ZorbaBeta | If I copied ten lines of code from his project into mine, I'd have to release my entire codebase under the GPL. |
| 13:34.37 | Gnarfoz | is GTK GPL'd? |
| 13:34.43 | nevcairiel | i think 10 lines go with fair use =P |
| 13:34.44 | ZorbaBeta | gnarfoz, no, LGPL'ed |
| 13:35.02 | Gnarfoz | ZorbaBeta, well, I wasn't trying to say what foxlit said he read |
| 13:35.13 | *** join/#wowuidev daev` (~bleh@pool-72-86-116-158.aubnin.fios.verizon.net) |
| 13:35.15 | Gnarfoz | but if it's LGPL'd then of course what he said goes out of the window |
| 13:35.51 | ZorbaBeta | foxlit, the argument isn't anything to do with GTK itself, it's to do with him getting code contributions and not respecting the license that code was contributed under. |
| 13:36.01 | Gnarfoz | point of the dispute was/is that he started distributing it as only partially GPL'd even though it contains contributions made under GPL, which he doesn't own. |
| 13:36.22 | cbreak | have you asked him for the sourcecode? |
| 13:36.45 | Gnarfoz | yes, he was asked for the source code, what kind of question is that |
| 13:36.46 | foxlit | And then there's the question of whether the contributions are licensed to him under GPL, or licensed to you under GPL. |
| 13:36.48 | ZorbaBeta | I personally haven't. I strongly suspect other people have. |
| 13:37.37 | cbreak | you should submit a patch under the gpl |
| 13:37.45 | Gnarfoz | anyway, this is more or less tangential, as I'm not sure the disputed contributions are even related to GTK integration. |
| 13:37.50 | cbreak | and if he uses it, you know under what license he uses it :) |
| 13:38.26 | ZorbaBeta | gnarfoz, well, they don't really have to be. if they're used in x-chat windows, then he's required to release all the sourcecode of the entire windows binary version |
| 13:38.26 | cbreak | gah, how I hate flash... |
| 13:38.47 | cbreak | appart from it being slow and low quality, it can't even stay in fullscreen mode when I switch to an other app... |
| 13:38.51 | Gnarfoz | ZorbaBeta, yeah. well. Licensing details confuse me some times. ;) |
| 13:38.52 | foxlit | ZorbaBeta: could you point out the relevant part of the license? :) |
| 13:38.58 | Kalroth | the main part of x-chat is GPL, but his windows specific modifications are his own and for his shareware client |
| 13:39.00 | Fisker | haste |
| 13:39.03 | Fisker | did you bet on duke_ |
| 13:39.05 | Fisker | ? |
| 13:39.17 | Gnarfoz | Kalroth, yes, but that doesn't fly with the GPL, does it now? |
| 13:39.31 | nevcairiel | only if he has consent of all contributors |
| 13:39.39 | ZorbaBeta | oh man the GPL is a beast. lemme see if I can point it out |
| 13:39.43 | nevcairiel | or no-one challenged it |
| 13:39.49 | Gnarfoz | ZorbaBeta, it's the "no derivates" part. ^^ |
| 13:40.17 | Kalroth | Gnarfoz: Nope, but the contributers to X-Chat obviously dont care enough to sue him and noone else can sue him :p |
| 13:40.26 | ZorbaBeta | http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html sections 5 and 6 are apropos |
| 13:40.31 | Gnarfoz | nevcairiel, yeah, that's the point. he publicly stated that he doesn't have the consent because he doesn't even remember some contributors or has no way of contacting him, so unless someone steps forward,he's going to assum he has said consent |
| 13:40.41 | foxlit | Gnarfoz: no "deri" in the license text :( |
| 13:40.43 | Gnarfoz | Kalroth, "nope" to what? |
| 13:40.59 | ZorbaBeta | (i'm assuming it's under gplv3, v2 is roughly equivalent but I'll let you find the segment) |
| 13:41.11 | Kalroth | no as the GPL doesn't allow it |
| 13:41.13 | Gnarfoz | it's gpl2, unless he changed it, gpl3 is younger than xchat |
| 13:41.26 | Gnarfoz | Kalroth, "no" to what, I'm not getting what you're referring to ^^ |
| 13:41.30 | ZorbaBeta | gnarfoz, the standard gpl2 allows relicensing under gpl3 (or any other future version) |
| 13:41.37 | foxlit | "You must license the entire work, as a whole, under this License to anyone who comes into possession of a copy." |
| 13:41.42 | ZorbaBeta | so he might've brought it up to gplv3. |
| 13:41.43 | Kalroth | <Gnarfoz> Kalroth, yes, but that doesn't fly with the GPL, does it now? |
| 13:41.47 | Gnarfoz | ZorbaBeta, certainly, but I'm saying I don't think he did relicence it |
| 13:41.47 | Kalroth | <Kalroth> Gnarfoz: Nope [it does not] |
| 13:41.52 | ZorbaBeta | yeah, I dunno. |
| 13:42.06 | ZorbaBeta | in any case, the gplv2 works in the same manner in this case |
| 13:42.10 | Gnarfoz | Kalroth, ah, that. yeah, like nev said, if he had consent, it would =\ |
| 13:42.17 | ZorbaBeta | the changes are mostly based around tivoization and patents, as I remember. |
| 13:43.01 | cbreak | why did they call it tivoisation? |
| 13:43.06 | cbreak | and not googleisation or similar? |
| 13:43.13 | cbreak | or ... *shiver* "cloudisation" |
| 13:43.16 | ZorbaBeta | cbreak, because the first major situation of it was Tivo's behavior |
| 13:43.21 | ZorbaBeta | it has nothing to do with cloud computing or google |
| 13:43.23 | cbreak | actually, that'd probably be called condensation |
| 13:43.34 | ZorbaBeta | gplv3 still allows you to modify versions for private use, then not distribute those versions |
| 13:43.49 | Gnarfoz | anyway, not sure if the difference between how his "minigtk" thing and the usual dynamic linking of gtk everybody else does works is the culprit for unicode glyph substitution o_O |
| 13:43.56 | ZorbaBeta | as well as modify server software and then not distribute the modifications, as long as you're hosting the site and not distributing it |
| 13:51.35 | *** part/#wowuidev mitchnull (~mitchnull@catv3EC944A1.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 13:53.24 | Gnarfoz | hmm |
| 13:53.42 | Gnarfoz | LGPL requires that you not statically link to your executable? Oo |
| 13:54.38 | cbreak | no |
| 13:55.08 | Gnarfoz | ah, right |
| 13:55.31 | Gnarfoz | I was going on quotes from xchat's forums, reading the actual text enlightened me ;p |
| 14:02.49 | Fisker | haste did you bet on duke or not? |
| 14:05.41 | Fisker | http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820139147 <-you'd best be trollin' |
| 14:05.56 | MoonWitch | love working on 2 pc's at once |
| 14:06.42 | *** join/#wowuidev Audible (~jon@2001:5c0:1400:b::787d) |
| 14:10.24 | sioraiocht | holy fuck |
| 14:10.29 | sioraiocht | Fisker: that's crazy |
| 14:10.48 | sioraiocht | wouldn't THAT suck to lose.. |
| 14:20.09 | *** join/#wowuidev Pneumatus (~WiN@unaffiliated/pneumatus) |
| 14:22.48 | *** join/#wowuidev A-KO (~sa@c-69-142-79-26.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 14:22.48 | *** join/#wowuidev A-KO (~sa@unaffiliated/a-ko) |
| 14:28.21 | sylvanaar | $900...thats awesome |
| 14:28.34 | *** join/#wowuidev n3mesis125 (~Shane@CPE00222d1857dd-CM00222d1857d9.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 14:29.03 | n3mesis125 | hey guys, i downloaded luainterface dlls for vb.net 2010, anyone here familiar with reading a lua table into a vb.net array with luainterface? |
| 14:29.22 | Shirik | you're probably better off in #lua |
| 14:29.28 | Shirik | I could tell you how to do it manualy |
| 14:29.32 | Shirik | I don't use luainterface |
| 14:29.42 | n3mesis125 | you just have your own parse? |
| 14:29.50 | Shirik | Well I use the C API |
| 14:29.56 | Shirik | I don'tk know how vb.net can access it |
| 14:30.17 | *** join/#wowuidev Thrae (~ircuser@generalmx-1-pt.tunnel.tserv13.ash1.ipv6.he.net) |
| 14:30.57 | n3mesis125 | yeah i've been lookin everywhere online' |
| 14:33.34 | Fisker | Shirik |
| 14:33.40 | Fisker | have you taken a bet for fuke? |
| 14:33.47 | Fisker | duke* |
| 14:40.59 | *** join/#wowuidev Odlaw (~ozzy@c-67-176-114-123.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 14:44.25 | *** join/#wowuidev Schnaks (~Schnaks@p4FC4D57B.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 14:56.17 | Shirik | so like |
| 14:56.20 | Shirik | I woke up at 7 AM today |
| 14:56.23 | Shirik | on a saturday |
| 14:56.25 | Shirik | this is sad |
| 14:56.35 | Shirik | I am so on-schedule that I can't sleep any later |
| 14:56.53 | Shadowed | Woke up at 5:40, do I win |
| 15:03.11 | DWSR | Hey all. |
| 15:06.17 | |Jelly| | Hey |
| 15:06.27 | *** join/#wowuidev taroven|Grr (~taroven|C@HW-ESR1-208-102-8-69.fuse.net) |
| 15:09.05 | *** join/#wowuidev Osagasu (~Creek@67-197-86-216.rh3.dyn.cm.comporium.net) |
| 15:13.29 | Fisker | Shirik |
| 15:13.32 | Fisker | did you bet on duke? |
| 15:13.37 | Shirik | wtf is duke |
| 15:13.57 | cbreak | maybe one of those football players |
| 15:14.02 | Fisker | wrong answer |
| 15:14.05 | cbreak | I heard it's world cup season at the moment |
| 15:14.43 | Shirik | screw soccer |
| 15:15.12 | Fisker | bet on duke or face the consequences |
| 15:20.19 | *** join/#wowuidev Seerah (~Ryan@c-98-251-190-189.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) |
| 15:20.19 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ |
| 15:48.42 | *** join/#wowuidev ilovemrdoe (~ddd@87.114.90.216.plusnet.thn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) |
| 15:52.26 | *** join/#wowuidev harl (harl@dslb-088-077-199-165.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 16:01.09 | mikma | http://www.salmiyuck.com/ |
| 16:01.42 | Torhal | sells Fisker t a glue factory. |
| 16:01.49 | Torhal | s/t/to/ |
| 16:02.12 | *** join/#wowuidev harl (harl@dslb-088-077-199-165.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 16:05.01 | Fisker | Torhal |
| 16:05.05 | Fisker | did you bet on duke? |
| 16:05.32 | Torhal | NEIN! |
| 16:06.12 | *** join/#wowuidev Vilkku (~Vilkku@server50825.uk2net.com) |
| 16:06.32 | Shirik | whatever happened to A batteries |
| 16:06.41 | Shirik | why do we only have AA and AAA |
| 16:06.46 | Shirik | and AAAA I saw once |
| 16:07.04 | Fisker | Shirik |
| 16:07.07 | Fisker | did you bet on duke? |
| 16:07.46 | Torhal | Fisker: http://forums.3drealms.com/vb/showthread.php?t=35635 |
| 16:08.14 | Shirik | Fisker: wrong answer |
| 16:09.12 | Fisker | why didn't you bet on duke Torhal ? |
| 16:09.35 | Torhal | It's the perpetual motion machine of this century. |
| 16:09.46 | cogwheel | MORNING |
| 16:09.49 | cogwheel | Fisker: die |
| 16:09.51 | Shirik | MORNING |
| 16:09.54 | Shirik | cogwheel |
| 16:09.56 | cogwheel | Shirik: |
| 16:14.38 | Shirik | that was weird |
| 16:14.42 | Shirik | my computer just triple faulted |
| 16:15.24 | Shirik | anyway |
| 16:15.30 | Shirik | cogwheel, were you saying something? |
| 16:15.32 | Shirik | I must have missed it |
| 16:15.34 | cogwheel | no |
| 16:15.52 | cogwheel | just being fiskerly |
| 16:17.26 | Fisker | cogwheel did you bet on duke? |
| 16:17.48 | cogwheel | Fisker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv0OqXCicy8 |
| 16:18.33 | Fisker | you should've bet on duke cogwheel |
| 16:33.05 | krka | fail foxlit! |
| 16:33.10 | krka | j/k, too bad though |
| 16:33.39 | foxlit | Case #22: 5977808144 :*( |
| 16:33.53 | foxlit | Whatever 23 is, it's been sitting there for the last 5 minutes. |
| 16:34.30 | foxlit | Something tells me there must be a better way to abstract that. |
| 16:34.33 | DWSR | hey, does anyone here know of an application that will sync your facebook contacts with an android phone (or with gmail)? |
| 16:34.33 | *** join/#wowuidev Jamash (~chatzilla@99-92-174-69.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net) |
| 16:35.10 | nevcairiel | just delete your facebook account, and the problem is solved |
| 16:36.05 | cbreak | I don't think deleting from facebook is possible |
| 16:36.25 | cbreak | once you've uploaded something, it stays there until the company goes bankrupt for everyone to see :( |
| 16:36.29 | cogwheel | DWSR: all of my facebook contacts show up in my droid's contact list |
| 16:36.37 | cogwheel | maybe the facebook application does that? |
| 16:36.41 | DWSR | Which version do you have? |
| 16:36.44 | DWSR | or android. |
| 16:36.47 | DWSR | s/or/of/ |
| 16:36.57 | cogwheel | it worked on 2.0 but i'm on 2.1 now |
| 16:37.02 | DWSR | Ah, I'm still on 1.6 |
| 16:37.04 | cogwheel | (moto droid) |
| 16:37.19 | zenzelezz | <Glad He Ate Her>... I can't tell whether it's innuendo or ignorance |
| 16:37.34 | Seerah | DWSR: I'm on 1.5 and I have some facebook synchage going on |
| 16:37.39 | Seerah | but I also have the facebook app |
| 16:37.45 | DWSR | I have the facebook app as well. |
| 16:37.55 | DWSR | But it's not really syncing very much |
| 16:38.00 | Seerah | it links the FB picture to the contact |
| 16:38.03 | Seerah | on mine |
| 16:38.04 | DWSR | Really? |
| 16:38.05 | Seerah | doesn't import |
| 16:38.12 | Seerah | (if I have the name set up the same way) |
| 16:38.29 | DWSR | hrm. |
| 16:38.37 | Seerah | even my own name has my FB picture next to it (for texting, etc) |
| 16:40.04 | *** join/#wowuidev MIkina (632153a0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.33.83.160) |
| 16:40.12 | cogwheel | <3 |
| 16:40.57 | Seerah | Hi Mikina :) |
| 16:41.09 | Mikina | 'ello :) |
| 16:41.25 | Seerah | how goes it? |
| 16:42.13 | Mikina | not awake yet, but I has a pineapple Molotov :) |
| 16:42.15 | DWSR | Seerah: What device do you have? |
| 16:42.20 | Seerah | hehehe |
| 16:42.23 | Seerah | Hero |
| 16:42.59 | cogwheel | http://molotov-energy.com/index.html omnomnom |
| 16:43.46 | *** join/#wowuidev PProvost (~peter@c-71-229-131-32.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 16:43.46 | *** join/#wowuidev PProvost (~peter@WoWUIDev/WAU/Admin/Pprovost) |
| 16:44.04 | cogwheel | morning PProvost |
| 16:44.13 | PProvost | Hola cogwheel |
| 16:44.58 | *** part/#wowuidev Xinhuan (~xinhuan@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/xinhuan) |
| 16:44.59 | *** join/#wowuidev Xinhuan (~xinhuan@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/xinhuan) |
| 16:44.59 | Fisker | PProvost |
| 16:45.01 | Fisker | did you bet on duke? |
| 16:45.10 | PProvost | Huh? |
| 16:45.40 | cogwheel | ^ |
| 16:46.10 | Fisker | did you? |
| 16:51.10 | PProvost | What ar you talking about? |
| 16:51.37 | zenzelezz | PProvost ain't no hollaback girl |
| 16:53.03 | MoonWitch | this room is missing something |
| 16:53.23 | zenzelezz | fetches his wizard's robe and hat |
| 16:54.52 | MoonWitch | yes, that is what we need Srosh .. |
| 16:54.58 | MoonWitch | Sun, Sex, Sin ... |
| 16:55.07 | MoonWitch | ya can keep the death and destruction lol |
| 16:56.11 | MoonWitch | Darn it Fisker, I expected at least you to make a comment lol |
| 17:12.21 | zenzelezz | http://comixed.com/2010/06/11/4-koma-comic-strip-electric/ |
| 17:16.17 | krka | foxlit: which problem is that slo? |
| 17:16.18 | krka | *slow |
| 17:16.33 | foxlit | My silly solution to C. |
| 17:18.01 | foxlit | Basically the same simulation with a few tricks to handle some patterns better. |
| 17:19.17 | Mikina | Ding 80 :) |
| 17:19.22 | cogwheel | http://cogwheel.info/CONGORATS.jpg |
| 17:19.25 | zenzelezz | grats |
| 17:19.48 | Mikina | My first Horde 80 |
| 17:19.51 | krka | yeah, simulation looks easy, i wonder if there's a smart formula for it |
| 17:22.08 | Fisker | MoonWitch did you bet on duke? |
| 17:28.11 | MoonWitch | Fisker, no I don't bet. |
| 17:28.29 | Fisker | why not? |
| 17:30.16 | MoonWitch | Never did |
| 17:30.21 | MoonWitch | I suck at betting :P |
| 17:31.57 | Fisker | well you can always bet on duke |
| 17:32.17 | MoonWitch | good god FreeBSD leaves me clueless |
| 17:32.24 | MoonWitch | I've not used fdisk in forever lol |
| 17:35.14 | zenzelezz | watching someone buy 30+ stacks of Netherweave Cloth from me (on the AH) makes me wonder what they do with it |
| 17:35.38 | *** join/#wowuidev sioraiocht (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht) |
| 17:36.31 | Shirik | cogwheel |
| 17:36.34 | Shirik | we were right the first time |
| 17:36.37 | cogwheel | ? |
| 17:36.39 | Shirik | I've been playing some more with rvalue references |
| 17:36.54 | Shirik | Foo foo; |
| 17:36.55 | Shirik | Foo&& fooRvalue = foo; |
| 17:36.59 | Shirik | 1>c:\users\mpdelbuono\documents\visual studio 2010\projects\cpp0xtest\cpp0xtest\cpp0xtest.cpp(25): error C2440: 'initializing' : cannot convert from 'Foo' to 'Foo &&' |
| 17:37.09 | Shirik | 1> You cannot bind an lvalue to an rvalue reference |
| 17:37.09 | Fisker | why so Shirik? |
| 17:37.10 | cogwheel | ah |
| 17:37.18 | Shirik | so rvalue references MUST be rvalues |
| 17:37.23 | Shirik | that makes a lot of sense |
| 17:37.24 | cogwheel | makes sense |
| 17:38.08 | nevcairiel | x must be x seems logical =P |
| 17:38.26 | Shirik | nevcairiel jumping into the conversation so late |
| 17:38.36 | Shirik | also Foo&& fooRvalue = Foo(); does not call the move constructor |
| 17:38.45 | Shirik | which is logical |
| 17:39.11 | Shirik | but uh |
| 17:39.12 | Shirik | Foo&& fooRvalue = Foo(); |
| 17:39.12 | Shirik | Foo bar = fooRvalue; |
| 17:39.15 | Shirik | called the copy constructor o.o |
| 17:39.25 | Shirik | oh crap |
| 17:39.42 | Shirik | no wait wat |
| 17:40.21 | Xinhuan | how is that a surprise? |
| 17:41.32 | Shirik | it should call the move constructor |
| 17:42.02 | Xinhuan | perhaps the compiler can't assume |
| 17:42.09 | Shirik | it's not assuming anything |
| 17:42.22 | Shirik | Foo bar = fooRvalue; is by definition Foo bar(fooRvalue) and fooRvalue is a Foo&& |
| 17:42.57 | foxlit | Shirik brings out the worst in whichever language he's working with :) |
| 17:43.14 | Xinhuan | or maybe the compiler just sucks :P |
| 17:43.21 | *** join/#wowuidev Hekt0 (~drhogback@ti0059a380-0647.bb.online.no) |
| 17:43.37 | foxlit | I can't even parse what follows after "by definition" |
| 17:44.23 | n3mesis125 | hey guys, for some reason my save variables aren't storing in an array, its just taking the last item in the for loop and overwriting: http://wowuidev.pastey.net/137622 |
| 17:44.52 | n3mesis125 | i have more code then that but that pastey is just to show how im storing in the for looop |
| 17:45.13 | nevcairiel | well obviously, you are only assigning one table to the array |
| 17:45.20 | nevcairiel | no variable in there, no nothing |
| 17:45.34 | Seerah | n3mesis125: you're telling it to change the value of TSBGuildConfig['Players'] each time. You're not adding new entries. |
| 17:45.36 | n3mesis125 | how do i store multiple in [Players] |
| 17:45.46 | Shirik | cogwheel any idea? >.> |
| 17:45.48 | nevcairiel | use table.insert, possibly |
| 17:45.57 | nevcairiel | depends how you want it to be stored, really |
| 17:46.14 | n3mesis125 | something like this |
| 17:46.16 | Seerah | hard to tell you how to do it when we don't know exactly what you're doing and how |
| 17:46.42 | krka | wtf is &&? |
| 17:46.45 | krka | reference-reference? |
| 17:46.51 | n3mesis125 | tsbguildconfig = { ['players'] = { [test] = test, [test2] = test } } |
| 17:46.58 | Shirik | rvalue reference |
| 17:47.01 | Shirik | a reference to an rvalue |
| 17:47.05 | Shirik | it's a C++0x thing |
| 17:47.09 | n3mesis125 | i want to insert into ['players'] |
| 17:48.25 | Shirik | got my answer |
| 17:48.31 | Shirik | this is going to blow your mind |
| 17:48.36 | Shirik | but it answers all the problems I've been bringing up |
| 17:48.44 | Shirik | cogwheel: "named rvalue references are lvalues" |
| 17:49.24 | Shirik | so fooRvalue must be treated as an lvalue there (and thus triggers the copy constructor) |
| 17:49.46 | Shirik | which totally solves the problem of leaving things in a non-deterministic state due to double-moves that I was bringing up yesterday |
| 17:51.19 | *** join/#wowuidev Hjalte (~chatzilla@cpe.ge-0-2-0-835.arcnqu2.customer.tele.dk) |
| 17:53.56 | Shirik | 5.7 If an expression initially has the type ``rvalue-reference to T'' (dcl.ref, dcl.init.ref), the type is adjusted to ``T'' prior to any further analysis, and the expression designates the object or function denoted by the rvalue-reference. If the expression is the result of calling a function, whether implicitly or explicitly, it is an rvalue; otherwise, it is an lvalue. |
| 17:53.57 | Shirik | [Note: In general, the effect of this rule is that named rvalue references are treated as lvalues and unnamed rvalue references are treated as rvalues. âend note] |
| 17:54.32 | Fisker | hey Shirik |
| 17:54.45 | Shirik | hey Fisker |
| 17:58.39 | n3mesis125 | im confused, how do i use table.insert to make this sort of flow: test = { [users] = { [user1] = username, [user2] = username } } |
| 17:59.02 | n3mesis125 | i want to insert into test users |
| 18:00.40 | Xinhuan | so do that |
| 18:01.21 | Shirik | stop calling it [user1] = username |
| 18:01.22 | Shirik | etc. |
| 18:01.26 | Shirik | just do [1] = username, etc. |
| 18:01.30 | Shirik | and that is |
| 18:01.39 | cogwheel | lua> (2 - 5) % 8 |
| 18:01.39 | lua_bot | cogwheel: 5 |
| 18:01.42 | Shirik | test = { users = { username, username, username }} |
| 18:02.07 | n3mesis125 | but i want my stuff labeled |
| 18:02.17 | Shirik | what is the purpose of user1 user2 etc |
| 18:02.20 | Shirik | or are they really called that? |
| 18:02.37 | Shirik | if they're named that, then your desire to do that is going to shoot yourself in the foot |
| 18:02.45 | Shirik | if they are just placeholder names and have some other purpose, tell me |
| 18:02.46 | n3mesis125 | this is what im trying to do |
| 18:02.51 | n3mesis125 | theres a table test |
| 18:02.55 | n3mesis125 | so test = {} |
| 18:03.03 | n3mesis125 | within test is Players = {} |
| 18:03.35 | n3mesis125 | within Players there is Name = 'the name', Status = 'their status', Stamp = 'timestamp' |
| 18:03.48 | n3mesis125 | i'm trying to insert with a loop to Players = {} |
| 18:05.19 | Shirik | uh |
| 18:05.21 | Shirik | I think you skipped one |
| 18:05.28 | Shirik | there could be multiple players |
| 18:05.31 | Shirik | right? |
| 18:06.38 | n3mesis125 | yes |
| 18:06.53 | n3mesis125 | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:07.06 | Shirik | so each player should have his/her own table |
| 18:07.35 | Shirik | test = { Players = { [1] = {Name = "Shirik", Status = "Awesome", Stamp = time() } } } |
| 18:07.36 | Shirik | etc. |
| 18:07.46 | cogwheel | lua> -1 % 3 |
| 18:07.46 | lua_bot | cogwheel: 2 |
| 18:07.51 | n3mesis125 | yeah shirik |
| 18:07.54 | Shirik | test = { Players = { [1] = {Name = "Shirik", Status = "Awesome", Stamp = time() }, [2] = {Name = "Cogwheel", Status = "Not awesome", Stamp = time() } } } |
| 18:08.04 | n3mesis125 | exactly |
| 18:08.12 | n3mesis125 | im trying to insert that way |
| 18:08.16 | Shirik | ok |
| 18:08.33 | n3mesis125 | sorry for the bad explanation |
| 18:08.33 | Shirik | then table.insert(test.Players, {Name = "Shirik", Status = "Awesome", Stamp = time() }); |
| 18:08.40 | n3mesis125 | sigh so easy lol |
| 18:08.43 | n3mesis125 | ty your my savior |
| 18:10.52 | *** join/#wowuidev Archarodim (HydraIRC@lev92-4-88-164-134-95.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 18:11.27 | *** join/#wowuidev Windaria (~Denial@c-24-22-237-60.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 18:12.41 | *** join/#wowuidev Random (~Denial@unaffiliated/windaria) |
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| 18:14.39 | Shirik | heh |
| 18:14.45 | Shirik | I found a bug in VS 2010's debugger |
| 18:14.52 | Shirik | It doesn't entirely understand move semantics |
| 18:15.13 | Shirik | or, rather, how std::string implements move semantics |
| 18:16.49 | Antiarc | Can any Eclipse users explain why all these entries are in maroon? |
| 18:16.49 | Antiarc | http://i.imgur.com/CppaI.png |
| 18:16.52 | Antiarc | It's bugging me. |
| 18:17.56 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (~kd3@wikia/kaydeethree) |
| 18:18.13 | Fisker | hey Antiarc |
| 18:18.16 | Fisker | did you bet on duke? |
| 18:18.26 | Antiarc | I don't generally follow sports |
| 18:18.40 | Gnarfoz | wrong duke |
| 18:20.52 | cogwheel | ~lart gcc |
| 18:20.52 | purl | strangles gcc with a 9-pole serial cable |
| 18:21.52 | MoonWitch | Antiarc: that VS2010? |
| 18:22.04 | Shirik | (11:16:06) (Antiarc) Can any Eclipse users |
| 18:22.11 | MoonWitch | ah |
| 18:22.16 | MoonWitch | thanks Shirik :) |
| 18:23.06 | Shirik | this is what VS2010 looks like: http://images.gammatester.com/pics/9451a234edc152c2520a42e30a7cd656.png |
| 18:23.09 | foxlit | Antiarc: they're also all star'ed |
| 18:23.09 | Shirik | well, that's with VAX |
| 18:23.13 | Shirik | but close enough |
| 18:23.18 | krka | foxlit: yay, analysis is up! |
| 18:23.35 | foxlit | krka: was up within like a minute of the contest :) |
| 18:23.39 | MoonWitch | I have VS2010 and 2008 .. Sadly due to mobile dev - can't use 2010 just yet :( |
| 18:24.07 | Shirik | I don't think they make the Cheetah platform for VS2010 yet :( |
| 18:24.55 | *** join/#wowuidev smcn (smcn@c-174-52-104-121.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 18:26.08 | Antiarc | It's because they were out of sync with my git head |
| 18:26.11 | Antiarc | All fixed now. |
| 18:28.22 | Fisker | i killed people Shirik |
| 18:30.47 | Xinhuan | why is the duration of fishing 17 seconds |
| 18:31.05 | foxlit | why is it not 42. |
| 18:31.11 | Xinhuan | exactly |
| 18:31.12 | Xinhuan | why? |
| 18:31.21 | foxlit | The public demands an answer, Fisker. |
| 18:31.25 | *** join/#wowuidev Cide (~Cide@hus110a.bobbnet.com) |
| 18:31.25 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Cide] by ChanServ |
| 18:31.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Vangual (~bah@pdpc/supporter/active/vangual) |
| 18:31.37 | Thunder_Child | you cant handle the truth foxlit |
| 18:31.55 | Adys | Thread: Dose this think hapend to other players |
| 18:31.56 | Adys | weeps |
| 18:33.08 | *** join/#wowuidev stolenlegacy (~stolenleg@d86-33-7-18.cust.tele2.at) |
| 18:35.40 | *** join/#wowuidev sioraiocht (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht) |
| 18:36.22 | Fisker | foxlit |
| 18:36.22 | Cide | someone set us up the bomb |
| 18:36.24 | Fisker | did you bet on duke? |
| 18:37.13 | mikma | antiarc: tomtom waypoint support! |
| 18:42.20 | Antiarc | mikma: Heh, can do once I get back to hudmap :) |
| 18:43.35 | mikma | antiarc: back? you coding something other cool addon? |
| 18:43.57 | Antiarc | mikma: a) Real Work(TM), and b) my inaugural Android app |
| 18:44.22 | mikma | loldroid, fun! |
| 18:45.32 | Fisker | your new android app should make it possible to attach multiple authenticators to one account |
| 18:45.45 | Antiarc | Not within my control :P |
| 18:45.52 | Fisker | sure is |
| 18:45.53 | Fisker | :3 |
| 18:45.58 | mikma | make it ban fiskerdin |
| 18:46.11 | Fisker | i can't play anyway |
| 18:50.43 | mikma | and the wow-world has been saved |
| 18:50.50 | *** join/#wowuidev tekkub (~tekkub@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Dongle/GitHub/Tekkub) |
| 18:50.50 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v tekkub] by ChanServ |
| 18:56.30 | Shirik | did they get rid of equipment sets? |
| 18:57.09 | foxlit | no. |
| 18:57.59 | cogwheel | you have to enable it in interface options |
| 19:02.14 | *** join/#wowuidev Caleb| (~caleb@dsl4E5C04B5.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 19:04.44 | cogwheel | is beginning to prefer programming in variable width font |
| 19:05.18 | Cide | you're mad |
| 19:05.41 | Antiarc | are you insane, man? |
| 19:06.38 | Seerah | I tried it once. went back |
| 19:06.41 | cogwheel | http://m-mz.posterous.com/programming-with-proportional |
| 19:07.57 | Cide | you read faster |
| 19:08.01 | Cide | but your code looks fugly |
| 19:08.13 | cogwheel | depends on the font |
| 19:08.29 | cogwheel | and whether you try to align things with spaces |
| 19:08.37 | cogwheel | (besides indenting) |
| 19:08.41 | Seerah | code with comic sans! |
| 19:08.51 | cogwheel | XD |
| 19:09.02 | Cide | also |
| 19:09.14 | Cide | that code needs to be python 3.0 instead of emulating the return value specifiers |
| 19:09.18 | Cide | and doing an ugly job at it |
| 19:10.48 | *** join/#wowuidev Iriel (~Iriel@adsl-71-158-244-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 19:10.48 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Iriel] by ChanServ |
| 19:11.33 | Seerah | I like this comment: "I saw this on HN and I was curious and very willing to see your point of view. You lost me right here - "This is one of the reasons why texts in reads faster." I'll be sticking to my fixed width, 14% slower to read text, thank you. If that slowdown buys me fewer mistakes like that in my code then so be it. Kudos to you for trying something different though." |
| 19:13.12 | *** join/#wowuidev Djane (~Djones@cpc1-rdng21-2-0-cust733.15-3.cable.virginmedia.com) |
| 19:13.28 | cogwheel | what is the "like that" he's referring to? |
| 19:13.58 | zenzelezz | I don't know about you guys, but I rarely read my code like a book or even an article; so the speed doesn't matter |
| 19:14.11 | Seerah | cogwheel: " why texts in reads" |
| 19:14.23 | cogwheel | lulz |
| 19:14.32 | Fisker | did you bet on duke Seerah ? |
| 19:14.56 | Seerah | I didn't fill out my brackets this year - was too slow |
| 19:15.04 | Iriel | My guess is that it's about using a proportional font for code |
| 19:15.44 | Iriel | I tried that once, ugh. |
| 19:15.44 | cogwheel | Iriel: yeah that's what we've been talking about :) i just didn't see the typo in the quote >< |
| 19:15.45 | *** join/#wowuidev Limbero (~Limbero@c83-250-2-110.bredband.comhem.se) |
| 19:15.45 | cogwheel | 12:04 * cogwheel is beginning to prefer programming in variable width font |
| 19:17.02 | cogwheel | zenzelezz: it's not so much about being able to read large blocks of code quicker imo. Even when you're looking for a specific line or statement, it can make it easier for your eyes to zero in on it. |
| 19:17.42 | Iriel | Out of interest, what fixed width font were you using before? |
| 19:17.55 | cogwheel | Consolas |
| 19:18.11 | zenzelezz | cogwheel: I've never experienced anything (in code) to back up people's claim about that |
| 19:18.25 | zenzelezz | if it works for them, fine, go ahead; but upi |
| 19:18.29 | zenzelezz | *you'll never turn me |
| 19:18.51 | cogwheel | i'm not trying to ... i'm not one of *those* people ;) |
| 19:19.05 | cogwheel | (at least when it comes to subjective experience) |
| 19:19.14 | Iriel | watches cog try to hide the kool-ade bottles |
| 19:19.39 | Iriel | Here's how my day started today: http://www.cheeseplant.org/~daniel/images/NarrowEscape.jpg |
| 19:20.27 | zenzelezz | cogwheel: I know you're not trying, I meant the general "you" |
| 19:20.44 | Dagmar | Looks like that tree has plenty of branches you could snatch off and walk around that fence to "reeducate" someone about how to cut down trees properly |
| 19:20.49 | Fisker | Dagmar |
| 19:20.53 | Fisker | did you bet on duke? |
| 19:21.00 | zenzelezz | that was the last time Iriel tried climbing trees |
| 19:21.13 | Dagmar | Fisker: I couldn't care less about that |
| 19:21.22 | Iriel | The tree's on my property, it's snapped "naturally" |
| 19:21.43 | Seerah | Iriel: at least it didn't hit the house.... |
| 19:22.19 | Iriel | The tip brushed the wall, but yes, if it had fallen 30 degrees further away from the camera there it would have landed on the front door area |
| 19:22.20 | *** join/#wowuidev akhe (~akhe@0x573bb4a2.ronqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
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| 19:23.36 | Iriel | http://www.cheeseplant.org/~daniel/images/EpicFail.jpg |
| 19:25.08 | zenzelezz | "I find it interesting that the fact that the claim appeared on Bjarne Stroustrup's Web site caused the reader to turn off all brain functions responsible for critical evaluation of information." |
| 19:25.11 | *** join/#wowuidev harl (harl@dslb-088-077-199-165.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 19:26.01 | Seerah | Iriel: which way is up in that picture? :p |
| 19:26.09 | Iriel | Seerah: up is up 8-) |
| 19:26.58 | Iriel | Facing the opposite direction as the other one |
| 19:29.14 | zenzelezz | was it an old tree, or was there a lot of wind or something? |
| 19:30.29 | cogwheel | lots of wind the last couple days around here |
| 19:30.51 | Iriel | Well, all of the trees are "old trees", likely planted in the mid to late 1950's |
| 19:30.52 | zenzelezz | you live in the same area? |
| 19:31.05 | cogwheel | SF bay area |
| 19:31.07 | Iriel | it's been windy, but not EXCEPTIONALLY so. |
| 19:31.38 | Iriel | I doubt i'll have any idea what happened until the arborists come around to remove the thing |
| 19:31.49 | Iriel | and that wont be until monday at the very very earliest |
| 19:32.04 | *** part/#wowuidev Iriel (~Iriel@adsl-71-158-244-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 19:32.13 | *** join/#wowuidev Iriel (~Iriel@adsl-71-158-244-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 19:32.13 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Iriel] by ChanServ |
| 19:32.16 | Dagmar | You should probably make some kind of sign to put on it disclaiming responsibility before you get hippies in your other trees |
| 19:32.23 | Iriel | mutters about window focus. |
| 19:32.45 | Dagmar | Once you get hippies, it's almost impossible to get them out again |
| 19:36.21 | Iriel | And then yesterday, this is about 3 miles from my house http://www.contracostatimes.com/top-stories/ci_15279825 |
| 19:42.18 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaso (~Kaso@host86-146-75-34.range86-146.btcentralplus.com) |
| 19:42.25 | Dagmar | Wait... a grass fire? In California? |
| 19:42.34 | Dagmar | Photoshopped |
| 19:44.15 | *** join/#wowuidev Kalroth (kalroth@3e6babaa.rev.stofanet.dk) |
| 19:48.58 | *** join/#wowuidev harl (harl@dslb-088-077-199-165.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 19:50.12 | *** join/#wowuidev Alram (~Marla@fabe.xs4all.nl) |
| 19:52.16 | cogwheel | Dagmar: yeah go figure |
| 19:52.17 | cogwheel | >< |
| 19:52.30 | Dagmar | Well, it *is* "Fire Season" there now |
| 19:52.35 | Thunder_Child | i have never yet seen a fire in CA |
| 19:54.12 | Iriel | I've seen quite a bit of smoke |
| 19:54.25 | Iriel | Never been on top of a fire yet |
| 19:54.35 | Iriel | hopefully I can maintain that |
| 19:54.50 | cogwheel | i've actually seen some of the fire. There was one on 101 up in cloverdale a couple years ago |
| 19:57.28 | Dagmar | Once the hillsides turn yellow, it's just a matter of one dude flipping a roach out the window and an hour or two later... state of emergency |
| 19:59.13 | Thunder_Child | gives people what to do |
| 19:59.17 | *** join/#wowuidev Caleb| (~caleb@dsl4E5C07C8.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 19:59.31 | Fisker | did you bet on duke Thunder_Child ? |
| 19:59.50 | Thunder_Child | Fisker: i dont bet |
| 20:00.00 | Fisker | that's stupid then |
| 20:00.04 | Fisker | could've gotten a lot of money |
| 20:00.30 | Thunder_Child | coulda shoulda woulda |
| 20:03.49 | Fisker | one day i will find you Thunder_Child |
| 20:04.25 | Thunder_Child | Fisker: you can find me this year at blizzcon |
| 20:10.32 | *** join/#wowuidev Repo (~supybot@repos.curseforge.net) |
| 20:13.21 | Fisker | well Thunder_Child |
| 20:13.32 | Fisker | you will regret not betting on duke |
| 20:13.43 | Thunder_Child | not really |
| 20:13.51 | Fisker | but you will |
| 20:13.56 | Thunder_Child | nope |
| 20:14.03 | Fisker | yes |
| 20:14.27 | Thunder_Child | nope |
| 20:14.32 | Fisker | yes |
| 20:14.35 | Thunder_Child | nope |
| 20:14.41 | Fisker | yes |
| 20:15.18 | cogwheel | Shirik: where's your bot? |
| 20:15.21 | cogwheel | ^^ |
| 20:15.31 | Shirik | it wouldn't have taken that anyway |
| 20:15.34 | Fisker | EDI can't harm me |
| 20:15.53 | Thunder_Child | it doesnt do that anymore cogwheel, thats why i did that |
| 20:16.25 | Thunder_Child | nope |
| 20:16.29 | Fisker | 1 sentence is all it takes to cripple EDI |
| 20:21.39 | *** join/#wowuidev Wella (5ec028a9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.192.40.169) |
| 20:21.58 | Wella | Hello der |
| 20:22.20 | cogwheel | ohai |
| 20:22.31 | Wella | Quick question: does anyone know if it's possible to access the "Say: " or "Tell player: " at the start of the editbox? |
| 20:22.53 | Wella | I managed to edit the editbox font, outline and shadow of what's actually typed, but didn't affect that bit. |
| 20:26.08 | Wella | I got the input text all neat and whatnot and now the bit before is just downright ugly. =[ |
| 20:26.20 | *** join/#wowuidev A-KO (~sa@c-69-142-79-26.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 20:26.20 | *** join/#wowuidev A-KO (~sa@unaffiliated/a-ko) |
| 20:28.01 | cogwheel | whenever you want to find out something like that it's always best to go to the source |
| 20:28.08 | cogwheel | read: blizzard's framexml files |
| 20:28.10 | Wella | hmm |
| 20:28.25 | Wella | i'll take a look... sorry :D |
| 20:28.43 | cogwheel | FrameXML/ChatFrame.xml is probably your best bet |
| 20:28.52 | Wella | yeah, already looking at it. |
| 20:29.32 | cogwheel | no need to apologize :) i just noticed no one had answered and i didn't know the answer |
| 20:29.56 | Wella | hehe |
| 20:30.04 | Wella | there are a lot of instances of "editbox" >_> |
| 20:30.10 | Wella | i can't seem to find anything that might help |
| 20:30.21 | cogwheel | it's probably not the edit box otherwise it would be typeable |
| 20:30.24 | cogwheel | look for a fontstring |
| 20:30.42 | Wella | true |
| 20:30.44 | Wella | such as? |
| 20:31.08 | Fisker | slaps cogwheel around a bit with a large trout |
| 20:31.39 | Wella | oh btw |
| 20:31.45 | Wella | if i edit one of the pieces of code in that file |
| 20:31.49 | Wella | where do i put it to make the changes active? |
| 20:31.59 | Wella | i.e. where would I put ChatFrame.lua |
| 20:32.14 | cogwheel | you wouldn't edit it... |
| 20:32.19 | Wella | owh |
| 20:32.22 | cogwheel | just use one of the APIs on the fontstring |
| 20:32.31 | *** join/#wowuidev akhe (~akhe@0x573bb4a2.ronqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 20:32.34 | Wella | erm |
| 20:32.43 | cogwheel | !api setfont |
| 20:32.43 | lua_bot | Found 5 possible results for 'setfont': FontInstance:SetFontObject, SimpleHTML:SetFont, Button:SetFontString, SimpleHTML:SetFontObject, FontInstance:SetFont |
| 20:32.55 | cogwheel | !api FontInstance:SetFont |
| 20:32.55 | lua_bot | FontInstance:SetFont: Sets the font instance's basic font properties (http://wowprogramming.com/docs/widgets/FontInstance/SetFont) |
| 20:33.11 | *** join/#wowuidev brykrys (~chatzilla@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Dev/Brykrys) |
| 20:33.12 | Fisker | always bet on Fisker cogwheel |
| 20:33.25 | Wella | well could you look on lines 2304-2306, these lines seem to have something to do with it |
| 20:33.49 | cogwheel | in chatframe.lua? |
| 20:34.03 | Wella | yep |
| 20:34.31 | Wella | maybe not |
| 20:34.46 | Wella | i thought i could just change |
| 20:34.52 | Wella | "chatType" to "", etc etc |
| 20:35.31 | Wella | nvm ignore that lol |
| 20:35.41 | Wella | well maybe it's not possible to edit... hmm |
| 20:36.03 | cogwheel | look in the xml. |
| 20:36.20 | cogwheel | in the chatframeeditboxtemplate there's a fontstring called $parentHeader |
| 20:36.28 | Wella | wooooooooooops haha |
| 20:38.12 | Wella | hm |
| 20:38.31 | cogwheel | So it's probably something like ChatFrame1EditBoxHeader:SetFont(.... |
| 20:38.50 | Wella | i'll try it |
| 20:38.54 | Wella | where'd you find that name though? :/ |
| 20:38.59 | *** part/#wowuidev Djane (~Djones@cpc1-rdng21-2-0-cust733.15-3.cable.virginmedia.com) |
| 20:39.21 | cogwheel | i made it up off the top of my head from my knowledge of blizzard's conventions |
| 20:39.24 | cogwheel | >< |
| 20:39.26 | Wella | haha. |
| 20:39.26 | cogwheel | you can also use /framestack :P |
| 20:39.27 | Wella | will try |
| 20:39.50 | cogwheel | it's just ChatFrameEditBox so it would be ChatFrameEditBoxHeader |
| 20:40.09 | cogwheel | The fact that the fontstring is named $parentHeader means it'll have the name of whatever the parent is plus "Header" |
| 20:40.14 | Wella | ooh. |
| 20:40.17 | Wella | makes sense |
| 20:41.06 | Wella | forgot about /framestack |
| 20:41.18 | Wella | lol i always have to google the macro for finding a frame name. >.< |
| 20:42.43 | *** join/#wowuidev brykrys (~chatzilla@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Dev/Brykrys) |
| 20:42.47 | *** join/#wowuidev Guardix (~Martin@188.178.100.163) |
| 20:43.11 | Wella | hmm...nope |
| 20:43.36 | Wella | apparently 'ChatFrame1EditBoxHeader' is a nil value |
| 20:43.44 | cogwheel | 13:39 < cogwheel> it's just ChatFrameEditBox so it would be ChatFrameEditBoxHeader |
| 20:43.50 | Wella | tried removing the "1" (since i am using "ChatFrameEditBox" for the rest of it) |
| 20:43.54 | Wella | did nothing really |
| 20:43.56 | Wella | nothing changed, i mean |
| 20:44.11 | cogwheel | well what exactly did you try? |
| 20:44.18 | Wella | well |
| 20:44.37 | Wella | i'm basically modifying an addon called Outliner |
| 20:44.37 | Wella | w |
| 20:44.41 | Wella | which does the same thing to the chat |
| 20:44.54 | cogwheel | if it didn't do anything you might not have called SetFont correctly |
| 20:45.00 | Wella | 2 secs |
| 20:45.06 | Wella | i'll pastey it |
| 20:45.14 | Wella | aha |
| 20:45.16 | Wella | got it |
| 20:45.37 | Wella | i had accidentally commented the ' ChatFrameEditBoxHeader:SetFont(font, 10, "OUTLINE") ', and i didn't notice that the shadow had been removed |
| 20:45.50 | Wella | finally! a good looking editbox |
| 20:45.52 | Wella | thank you so much ;) |
| 20:45.56 | *** join/#wowuidev Sum_Wun (~sumwun@72.183.41.75) |
| 20:45.58 | cogwheel | np :) |
| 20:47.14 | Wella | this doesn't need to be said but |
| 20:47.16 | Wella | #wowuidev ftw |
| 20:47.49 | MoonWitch | hear hear :) |
| 20:48.36 | Wella | hare hare |
| 20:48.37 | Wella | :O |
| 20:48.52 | Seerah | Wella: which editor are you using? I recommend Notepad++ - will give you syntax highlighting |
| 20:49.01 | Seerah | (ie, you'll notice if something's commented out) |
| 20:49.01 | MoonWitch | SEERAH~ |
| 20:49.08 | Seerah | :) |
| 20:49.09 | MoonWitch | hugs Seerah |
| 20:49.13 | Seerah | hugs MoonWitch |
| 20:49.46 | Wella | and now to change the width of the editbox... |
| 20:49.48 | Wella | (jk) |
| 20:56.43 | *** join/#wowuidev brykrys (~chatzilla@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Dev/Brykrys) |
| 21:00.02 | Wella | Seerah: "programmer's notepad" |
| 21:00.41 | Wella | it does have Lua support but you seem to have to select it every time you open a Lua file |
| 21:01.48 | Seerah | Wella: ah... Notepad++ remembers ;) |
| 21:01.56 | *** join/#wowuidev Cide (~Cide@hus110a.bobbnet.com) |
| 21:01.56 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Cide] by ChanServ |
| 21:01.59 | Wella | yeah, i have that at my mum's actually |
| 21:02.07 | Wella | but i find Prog's Notepad to be a lot easier to use |
| 21:02.17 | Wella | notepad++ is... mindfucking, shall we say |
| 21:03.16 | nevcairiel | all i need is an editor with syntax highlighting, and optionally code folding =P |
| 21:03.34 | Wella | programmer's notepad 2 has those things |
| 21:03.37 | nevcairiel | although, on-hover function descriptions and auto-complete are awesome tools |
| 21:03.42 | Iriel | emacs! |
| 21:03.58 | nevcairiel | all i need kinda implies that i dont want the kitchen sink |
| 21:04.09 | Wella | or the door |
| 21:04.32 | Wella | Knights of Cydonia <3 |
| 21:05.19 | nevcairiel | sadly plugins for eclipse or so for a language like Lua are harder to pull off |
| 21:05.56 | Wella | lol |
| 21:06.14 | Iriel | I think there is a lua eclipse plugin |
| 21:06.30 | Wella | "FINISHIM!" upon 5 combo points ftw |
| 21:07.08 | nevcairiel | well, i would guess it doesnt do refactoring |
| 21:07.13 | nevcairiel | just folding and highlighting |
| 21:07.23 | *** join/#wowuidev isman (~drag@mlr78-3-88-162-68-235.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 21:08.13 | Wella | :/ |
| 21:09.16 | krka | nevcairiel: sylvanaar is working on a lua plugin for intellij |
| 21:09.24 | nevcairiel | i know |
| 21:09.31 | *** join/#wowuidev Djane (~Djones@cpc1-rdng21-2-0-cust733.15-3.cable.virginmedia.com) |
| 21:09.37 | krka | cool :) |
| 21:09.42 | nevcairiel | but i have to use eclipse at work |
| 21:09.52 | nevcairiel | and i dont feel like using yet another UI |
| 21:10.38 | Djane | Anyone know of raid frames that look similar to grid but can have floating individually positionable boxes. I'm setting up clique to allow me to cleanse, use my hands of "X" and taunt without having to search around for particularly people which takes a little time. But i also want to position them in a particular format that grid just doesn't allow. |
| 21:13.33 | krka | sorry to hear that nevcairiel, sounds like a weird company to work for :) |
| 21:14.11 | nevcairiel | I guess i could use another UI, in theory. But i would have to somehow replace our deployment scripts, or figure out a way to integrate that into intellij |
| 21:14.32 | krka | i wonder if i should extend my interpreter to be a full blown editor as well |
| 21:14.40 | krka | shouldn't be so hard i guess |
| 21:15.13 | krka | i already have syntax highlighting, pair-matching, auto-complete, identifier highlighting |
| 21:15.45 | krka | adding syntax errors notes would be easy |
| 21:15.45 | Shirik | ok cog|away |
| 21:15.45 | Shirik | I think I got this for sure |
| 21:15.45 | nevcairiel | hm, the JBoss plugin for intellij seems to be much better then the eclipse crap thing |
| 21:15.45 | Shirik | Basically, you should never be handling rvalue references directly |
| 21:15.46 | nevcairiel | maybe i should give it a swirl |
| 21:15.49 | Wella | ooomg, wow crashing during configing FTL |
| 21:16.03 | Shirik | the closest you will get is to making a move constructor |
| 21:16.06 | Djane | Faster than light? |
| 21:16.14 | Shirik | all the dirty manipulation with rvalue references should probably be done by std::move |
| 21:17.02 | *** join/#wowuidev Caleb| (~caleb@dsl4E5C0280.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 21:17.25 | nevcairiel | boo, the EE plugins are only in the buy version =P |
| 21:18.56 | *** part/#wowuidev Djane (~Djones@cpc1-rdng21-2-0-cust733.15-3.cable.virginmedia.com) |
| 21:27.46 | *** join/#wowuidev Stew-a (~Stewart@unafilliated/stewa/x-008753) |
| 21:27.49 | Fisker | slaps nevcairiel around a bit with a large trout |
| 21:27.51 | Fisker | slaps Shirik around a bit with a large trout |
| 21:30.30 | *** join/#wowuidev Kronus (~Creek@67-197-86-216.rh3.dyn.cm.comporium.net) |
| 21:34.35 | Thunder_Child | Fisker mikma |
| 21:35.00 | mikma | oooohlala |
| 21:36.21 | Fisker | Â |
| 21:36.30 | Fisker | i also farted Thunder_Child |
| 21:36.34 | mikma | copycat |
| 21:36.43 | Shirik | so like |
| 21:36.45 | Shirik | http://images.gammatester.com/pics/6e1579a43ad25f9d2bbdfeb35d150d96.png |
| 21:36.48 | Shirik | yeah |
| 21:37.03 | Fisker | whine more Shirik |
| 21:37.18 | Shirik | the WSG one is actually closer to 2 hours |
| 21:37.20 | Shirik | we had to reset it |
| 21:37.27 | Fisker | whine in team_say pl0x |
| 21:37.48 | Kalroth | They dont want you, Shirik, the queue software is "oh shit its the terribad one again, lets pretend we didnt see him" |
| 21:37.50 | mikma | i would kick that troll so hard |
| 21:38.20 | Thunder_Child | Shirik: we have to do that from time to time, but we dont wait nearly that long. |
| 21:38.35 | Thunder_Child | rule of thimb is longer than 20 min is a reset |
| 21:38.40 | Thunder_Child | thumb* |
| 21:38.52 | Shirik | well we reset it because someone wanted to join |
| 21:39.57 | Fisker | you mean Kalroth, mikma? |
| 21:40.07 | Kalroth | im not trolling im being honest |
| 21:40.32 | Fisker | well who can it be then? |
| 21:40.36 | Fisker | I know i never troll |
| 21:40.40 | Fisker | you know you never troll |
| 21:40.44 | Fisker | that leaves Shirik |
| 21:40.45 | Fisker | :( |
| 21:40.50 | Fisker | Shirik are you trolling? |
| 21:45.33 | Fisker | Shirik is ashamed :( |
| 21:46.01 | *** join/#wowuidev MoonWitch1 (~Kelly@d51A4DB5F.access.telenet.be) |
| 21:48.21 | Arrowmaster | DAMNIT WHY THE FUCK IS MY COMPUTER BEEPING! |
| 21:51.12 | mikma | arrowmaster: ping, lol |
| 21:51.40 | Arrowmaster | ive actually got xchat setup with a different beep sound |
| 21:51.55 | Arrowmaster | the system one kept going off |
| 21:52.03 | A-KO | LoL is pretty damn sweet |
| 21:58.10 | Thunder_Child | it is indeed |
| 22:07.13 | Slackwise | Excellence! http://slackwi.se/files/images/screenshots/FourSwords001.png |
| 22:10.40 | *** join/#wowuidev Borgleader (~borgleade@modemcable253.146-130-66.mc.videotron.ca) |
| 22:11.15 | *** join/#wowuidev sylvanaar (~sylvanaar@unaffiliated/sylvanaar) |
| 22:22.40 | *** join/#wowuidev Caleb| (~caleb@dsl4E5C03D3.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 22:24.17 | Iriel | Shirik: I dont really like the new LR3 icon |
| 22:25.33 | *** join/#wowuidev Audible (~jon@2001:5c0:1400:b::7557) |
| 22:25.57 | Thunder_Child | it's an album |
| 22:26.18 | Thunder_Child | though it looks more like a book |
| 22:29.17 | *** join/#wowuidev harl (harl@dslb-088-077-199-165.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 22:38.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Aqua (~Aquavette@74-143-225-146.static.insightbb.com) |
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| 22:42.49 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v tekkub] by ChanServ |
| 22:50.20 | *** join/#wowuidev Osagasu (~Creek@67-197-1-37.rh1.dyn.cm.comporium.net) |
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| 23:00.00 | Iriel | Thunder_Child: it's awful, I liked the cleanliness of th eold one |
| 23:00.15 | Thunder_Child | Iriel: it's just an icon |
| 23:00.40 | Iriel | The splash window is just as awful |
| 23:01.21 | Iriel | goes out just to get away from it 8-) |
| 23:03.12 | *** join/#wowuidev Sesshu (~Sesshu@ip-143-20.travedsl.de) |
| 23:04.09 | Aqua | if (IsPartyLeader() == false) then ChatFrame1:AddMessage("I am not the leader of my party!"); end |
| 23:04.13 | Aqua | that should work no? |
| 23:05.08 | nevcairiel | probably not, no |
| 23:05.23 | Aqua | my if statement is screwed up |
| 23:05.29 | nevcairiel | WoW APIs dont return true and false |
| 23:05.30 | Aqua | sigh i've not done this in a while |
| 23:05.37 | nevcairiel | they usually go with 1/nil |
| 23:05.54 | nevcairiel | so just do if not IsPartyLeader() |
| 23:06.08 | nevcairiel | reads smoother, too! =) |
| 23:06.28 | Aqua | gracias |
| 23:06.36 | Aqua | i've been doing a lot of C# lately |
| 23:07.07 | nevcairiel | that reminds me to somehow get my hands on vs2010 |
| 23:07.16 | nevcairiel | i want my msdnaa back |
| 23:10.30 | Fisker | nevcairiel |
| 23:10.32 | Fisker | did you bet on duke? |
| 23:10.46 | nevcairiel | sure, on what else would one bet?!? |
| 23:11.19 | Thunder_Child | a hookers ass |
| 23:11.40 | nevcairiel | good point |
| 23:11.45 | nevcairiel | withdraws bet |
| 23:14.04 | Fisker | well |
| 23:14.13 | Fisker | betting on a hookers ass is a pretty bad investment |
| 23:14.18 | Fisker | betting on duke on the other hand |
| 23:15.57 | *** join/#wowuidev taroven (~taroven|C@HW-ESR1-208-102-8-69.fuse.net) |
| 23:20.20 | Thunder_Child | i dunno Fisker, it's always been a good investment for me |
| 23:31.29 | Fisker | naw Thunder_Child |
| 23:41.40 | Thunder_Child | actually yes Fisker |
| 23:43.46 | *** join/#wowuidev Wobin (~Wobin@124-171-254-95.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 23:51.26 | Fisker | slaps Thunder_Child around a bit with a large trout |
| 23:52.11 | *** join/#wowuidev Gintaro (~Gintaro@cc1040670-a.gorre1.fr.home.nl) |
| 23:57.26 | *** join/#wowuidev Sixen1 (~Sixen@173-25-23-10.client.mchsi.com) |
| 23:57.57 | cog|away | hai Sixen |
| 23:58.24 | Sixen | hai2u cogwheel |
| 23:58.26 | Sixen | how yah doin? |
| 23:58.39 | cogwheel | basking in air conditioning |
| 23:58.45 | Sixen | Good times :P |
| 23:59.27 | *** join/#wowuidev Audible (~jon@2001:5c0:1400:b::7029) |
