| 00:00.12 | Lopeppeppy | Stress induced over-grooming. |
| 00:00.28 | Shadowed | Are there a lot of meds for that? |
| 00:00.45 | Lopeppeppy | She's basically on valium, but pilling her is... traumatic, esp. with the whole gimpy hand thing. I was searching for a non-pill form. |
| 00:00.58 | Shadowed | Can you not feed it to her in cheese or something |
| 00:01.31 | DWSR | Lopeppeppy: This is why you need a dog. |
| 00:01.35 | Lopeppeppy | No, she's wised up to that about 3.5 weeks back. Pill pockets don't work, treats don't work. |
| 00:01.38 | Shadowed | ahhh |
| 00:01.47 | DWSR | Lopeppeppy: Because you can just shove the pill into cheese and give it to the dog and he'll eat it. No matter what. |
| 00:01.50 | Lopeppeppy | Yes. Dogs eat pills wrapped in meat, nom. Cats sniff and walk away. |
| 00:01.53 | DWSR | Or peanut butter. |
| 00:02.05 | DWSR | My dog goes apeshift for peanut butter.\ |
| 00:03.28 | DWSR | Lopeppeppy: Actually, we don't feed my dog meat at all. |
| 00:03.35 | DWSR | Well, that's not totally true. |
| 00:03.45 | DWSR | Occasionally he gets a piece of bacon from the breakfast table, but that's like IT. |
| 00:04.06 | *** join/#wowuidev theorb (~theorb@91.84.53.6) |
| 00:04.14 | DWSR | Whenever we have to give him meds for pills, we either a) give him a shot or b) hide it in some cheese. |
| 00:05.10 | DWSR | s/meds for/meds or/ |
| 00:05.50 | Lopeppeppy | I'm trying to get her a med in liquid version. Either I can get the vet to switch her med, or apparently there's a holistic pharmacy down about a half-hour south that will compound any pill-form into liquid. Or used to. I must call for their hours and to see if they still do this. |
| 00:07.08 | DWSR | LET ME SEE THAT THONG |
| 00:07.14 | DWSR | THAT THONG THA THONG THONG THONG |
| 00:07.39 | *** part/#wowuidev Desik (~47c9035f@gateway/web/freenode/x-bxwrjogyhszhwdmq) |
| 00:07.58 | foxlit | thinks it's time to medicate DWSR's cheese again. |
| 00:08.09 | DWSR | meh. |
| 00:08.30 | DWSR | Just because I enjoy Sisqo mashups doesn't mean you can medicate me against my...owait. |
| 00:14.04 | Kraps | "For a limited time, you can elect to subscribe to a three-month recurring subscription to Champions Online for just $29.99 USD. That's a $15 savings over the standard monthly rate! " |
| 00:15.41 | Kraps | hmm |
| 00:16.13 | Shadowed | Lopeppeppy: Hun, I wouldn't think you could turn any pill form into a liquid that easily |
| 00:17.10 | Lopeppeppy | It's not easy, hence going to the specialist pharmacist, who can also give me the correct *dosing* after he does it. :) |
| 00:17.22 | Lopeppeppy | Important to know how many cc's of his compound = 1/2 of a regular pill. |
| 00:18.35 | Industrial | Congratulations! This is an additional invitation to the beta test for Blizzard Entertainmentâs StarCraft® II: Wings of Liberty⢠for you to share with a friend! You are receiving this email because you are currently participating in the StarCraft II beta test, and we want to encourage you to test out some of the social features of the revamped Battle.net® online-gaming service by inviting one |
| 00:18.37 | Industrial | of your friends to play with you. |
| 00:18.39 | Industrial | HE HE HE |
| 00:19.07 | Lopeppeppy | Nice. Recruit a Friend for SC2 beta!!! |
| 00:19.16 | Lopeppeppy | That's an awesome idea. |
| 00:19.36 | foxlit | "Just type in your password here, here and here" |
| 00:19.37 | cbreak | I have a better one |
| 00:19.43 | cbreak | Beta for MAC! |
| 00:19.46 | cbreak | I wanna play :( |
| 00:20.04 | Industrial | cbreak: I have a macbook black (2008) and it doesnt play it. (on windows) |
| 00:20.11 | Industrial | so I dont even get to :| |
| 00:20.19 | cbreak | I have an 8 core mac pro |
| 00:20.23 | cbreak | I think it should play it |
| 00:21.28 | cbreak | but I seriously doubt it that it's even close to acceptable inside VMWare |
| 00:21.36 | cbreak | and I don't want to install bootcamp |
| 00:21.49 | *** join/#wowuidev Wobin (~Wobin@124-171-14-54.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 00:21.56 | Industrial | I just removed OSX and went with a normal MBR and windows and linux :P |
| 00:22.09 | cbreak | why? |
| 00:22.30 | cbreak | empirical studies have shown: system uptime of dual boot computers is way below that of single system computers |
| 00:22.57 | Industrial | I hate the OSX interface with a passion. I just can't work with it. |
| 00:23.44 | Industrial | that and I can't run a window manager on top of it (well you can but then it cant manage ANY native osx app, only X11 compiled ones) |
| 00:23.53 | Wobin | cbreak, isn't that like saying "empirical studies have shown that time spent in marital relations are split more in bigamist relations than single marriage ones"? |
| 00:24.15 | cbreak | so, why do you use windows? |
| 00:24.19 | Industrial | so it defeats the purpose |
| 00:24.23 | cbreak | it doesn't support foreign window managers either |
| 00:24.29 | Industrial | but it plays games |
| 00:24.29 | foxlit | cbreak: cheat by suspend-to-disk instead of shutdown. |
| 00:24.50 | Industrial | Linux, however, does :D |
| 00:25.00 | cbreak | foxlit: I have 55 dys runtime on my desktop currently |
| 00:25.16 | cbreak | it was off less than a day since I bought it two years ago |
| 00:25.22 | foxlit | I turn off my PC at night. |
| 00:25.30 | cbreak | I sit in front of it at night |
| 00:25.32 | foxlit | Or, rather, suspend-to-disk. |
| 00:25.33 | A-KO | honestly, I adore Windows :P |
| 00:25.42 | foxlit | I suspect we just define "night" differently |
| 00:25.42 | cbreak | my notebook is asleep mostly :) |
| 00:25.46 | foxlit | "Night" is when you sleep. |
| 00:25.50 | cbreak | night is when it's dark outside |
| 00:25.55 | foxlit | Has nothing to do with the sun or the planet. |
| 00:25.57 | Industrial | incants and tries to banish A-KO |
| 00:26.43 | A-KO | Industrial: eh, when you want to solve problems using technology and not solve problems with technology, you use the correct tool for the job :P |
| 00:27.27 | cbreak | Windows is never the correct tool unless the problem is boobies.jpg.exe |
| 00:27.30 | A-KO | lol |
| 00:27.32 | Industrial | I can't ima.. exactly. |
| 00:27.56 | A-KO | I could say something about that but I won't :P |
| 00:29.49 | Industrial | windows only serves as the platform I install and run games on but I don't do anything with it other then that :S its the right too for that job but I've got better tools for EVERYTHING else :P |
| 00:30.08 | ZorbaBeta | personally I took the approach of turning windows into a better platform |
| 00:30.12 | ZorbaBeta | most of my real work is done through Cygwin |
| 00:30.18 | A-KO | heh |
| 00:30.18 | Antiarc | Windows is fine as a desktop platform |
| 00:30.27 | Antiarc | I do all my Real Work on a Linux machine on my LAN |
| 00:30.35 | Antiarc | But as a thin client + game OS, it works dandy :P |
| 00:30.40 | cbreak | you could do that from any OS |
| 00:30.40 | A-KO | lol |
| 00:30.46 | Antiarc | Sure yo ucould |
| 00:30.51 | Industrial | I have a VM running atm, since my PC broke |
| 00:30.53 | A-KO | says nothing because it only serves to build a flamewar |
| 00:31.10 | DWSR | flames the war. |
| 00:31.14 | cbreak | A-KO: vim! emacs! |
| 00:31.17 | foxlit | wars the flame. |
| 00:31.27 | A-KO | actually, fuck it :P it's funny watching people who have no idea what they're talking about talk about things they don't possibly understand. |
| 00:32.13 | Industrial | examples, you have none! what would you possibly do with windows other then use it as a desktop :D |
| 00:32.15 | A-KO | but let's just say, puppet doesn't come anywhere close to group policy |
| 00:32.25 | A-KO | :) |
| 00:32.29 | Shadowed | Once Steam releases their Mac version, I won't have much reason to stay on Windows :D |
| 00:32.37 | cbreak | group policies don't work |
| 00:32.42 | A-KO | they don't? |
| 00:32.42 | cbreak | since people will fight them |
| 00:32.53 | A-KO | visible group policies maybe :) |
| 00:33.13 | cbreak | if you make a policy "don't install crap on your system, it contains highly confidential patient data" |
| 00:33.16 | cbreak | what do they do? |
| 00:33.36 | cbreak | they use portable apps which you don't have to install... |
| 00:33.39 | cbreak | wtf... |
| 00:33.54 | A-KO | cbreak: that's only a subset of what you can do with group policy. Particularly throwing in Group Policy Preferences in the newer OS' :P |
| 00:34.09 | Heather | now needs to figure out how to make one of her functions trigger every time something is added to a bag |
| 00:34.10 | A-KO | the entire registry becomes open to management centrally |
| 00:34.16 | cbreak | what are they good for besides making administration easier and systems secure? |
| 00:34.33 | cbreak | and either way, the users will make administration harder again because they moan about stuff that stops working |
| 00:34.53 | cbreak | or make it just insecure again by invalidating all your password policies with a forrest of post-it notes |
| 00:35.05 | A-KO | you're talking as if the only interaction on an environment is between administrator and end users......there's also the myriad of back office systems and environments that end users don't directly see or know about. |
| 00:35.20 | cbreak | and then they have the gall to complain to my boss about me stealing their passwords when they wanted to have their keyboard replaced? |
| 00:35.23 | cbreak | wtf^2 |
| 00:35.42 | A-KO | group policies can be used for far more than preventing users from changing their desktop backgrounds :P |
| 00:35.46 | cbreak | the users are the problem |
| 00:35.55 | cbreak | users cause most of the trouble |
| 00:36.03 | cbreak | without users, computers would be so simple :) |
| 00:36.11 | A-KO | when you need to make changes to clusters of systems that are load balanced, being able to do it once and have it replicate makes managing that environment much easier |
| 00:36.17 | Arrowmaster | Industrial: i got around to trying to sync my anidb list to mal again, except for things it messed it up should be more updated now, although ive got a backlog of stuff i need to add to anidb still |
| 00:36.37 | A-KO | Heather: http://wowprogramming.com/docs/events/BAG_UPDATE |
| 00:36.53 | Industrial | Arrowmaster: I just tried 5 ep's of Shounen Onmyouji but dumped it :\ |
| 00:37.44 | cbreak | want to know the end? :) |
| 00:38.05 | Industrial | he kisses the girl? |
| 00:38.10 | A-KO | cbreak: Another thing is VMs. There are platforms that require Windows, and particularly with virtual machines. Virtual machines are becoming far more than simply throwing 2 OS' on one box, and becoming managed environments for testing environments, developer environments--some of which need to be crushed and rebuilt occasionally, etc etc... |
| 00:38.13 | cbreak | almost. |
| 00:38.23 | Industrial | cliche! |
| 00:38.25 | cbreak | something about glow-worms |
| 00:38.31 | cbreak | or what ever the english name is |
| 00:38.35 | cbreak | fireflies? |
| 00:38.49 | A-KO | we're doing a massive VM build-out and pretty much re-architecting our entire infrastructure from top to bottom to being VM-based, with the possibility of even using App-V on the application level. |
| 00:38.51 | Arrowmaster | never even heard of that anime before |
| 00:38.54 | Dagmar | This McGonigal speeh is pretty good |
| 00:39.12 | cbreak | that doesn't sound very efficient |
| 00:39.37 | A-KO | cbreak: efficient? It's taking 2 entire rows of racks in a datacenter down to a couple of racks filled with blades and SAN |
| 00:39.59 | cbreak | wonder how much power you could get out of that hardware by installing the OS directly |
| 00:40.09 | Dagmar | cbreak: Cloning a known, good install is far better than doing a bunch of individual and possibly one-off ridden instals |
| 00:40.15 | cbreak | do you use VMs for separation/security? |
| 00:40.26 | Dagmar | cbreak: Roughly the same power |
| 00:40.31 | cbreak | yeah, but you don't need VM for that |
| 00:40.34 | Dagmar | VMs are _very_ thin on overhead now |
| 00:40.46 | Dagmar | YOu won't get the compartmentalization without VMs |
| 00:40.47 | cbreak | you can do cloning with a backup/restore, or similar |
| 00:40.58 | A-KO | not as quickly |
| 00:41.04 | Dagmar | cbreak: it can be done a crapton faster and better with a _virtual disk_ |
| 00:41.19 | DWSR | !api health |
| 00:41.19 | lua_bot | Found 7 possible results for 'health': GetUnitHealthModifier, UNIT_MAXHEALTH, UnitHealth, UNIT_HEALTH, GetUnitMaxHealthModifier, GetUnitHealthRegenRateFromSpirit, UnitHealthMax |
| 00:41.19 | A-KO | VMs are the way of the future for most organizations that need it |
| 00:41.21 | cbreak | yeah, unless you need that thing on someone's desk |
| 00:41.30 | Dagmar | *sigh* SO WHAT |
| 00:41.41 | cbreak | the people where I worked used thin clients to access a VMWare instance via rdp :/ |
| 00:41.42 | Dagmar | He's putting stuff in datacenter racks |
| 00:41.55 | Dagmar | What the hell impact could what needs to be on someone's _desk_ have to do with it |
| 00:42.06 | A-KO | yeah, one-off machines mean nothing |
| 00:42.13 | A-KO | "hey build me a quick box for something" "okay" |
| 00:42.38 | cbreak | those are the ones that make most problems. |
| 00:42.47 | A-KO | here's the deal, end users--even developers, don't know shit. They break shit, all the time. When they come ot us and go "hey we broke our dev environment", being able to restore that environment instantly by reverting to a previous VM snapshot guarantees a full, complete restoration. |
| 00:42.51 | A-KO | in a matter of seconds |
| 00:43.05 | Industrial | going for Hayate no Gotoku now |
| 00:43.14 | Dagmar | ...which is just f**king hugewin |
| 00:43.17 | Heather | tries to figure out how precisely to use an event. |
| 00:43.17 | Industrial | I never break my dev environment, and if I do then I fix it myself |
| 00:43.19 | A-KO | yeah Dagmar, exactly. |
| 00:43.27 | Arrowmaster | cant believe youve never watched that one Industrial |
| 00:43.33 | cbreak | Heather: what kind of event? Usually you'd install a handler |
| 00:43.45 | Dagmar | A-KO: Here I have a VM of Win7 32-bit which I use to deliberately surf for malware |
| 00:43.45 | Industrial | Arrowmaster: well I will now, got both seasons lined up =D |
| 00:43.53 | Dagmar | I find it weekly, and often *nightly* |
| 00:43.56 | Heather | cbreak, BAG_UPDATE |
| 00:44.07 | cbreak | make yourself a frame |
| 00:44.07 | Heather | I want a function to trigger every time a bag is updated |
| 00:44.12 | Dagmar | As far as the VM knows, it's only ever been used to run Windows Update |
| 00:44.16 | cbreak | set your method as OnEvent handler |
| 00:44.21 | cbreak | and register that frame for receiving that event |
| 00:44.22 | Arrowmaster | Industrial: youve got a lot of stuff on your dropped list |
| 00:44.51 | theorbtwo | Dagmar: You're a malware researcher, or just fine it fun? |
| 00:44.53 | Corrodias | i use VM's to test software for functionality and security |
| 00:44.58 | A-KO | Dagmar: nice. We're still planning/building our full rollout of this stuff. We're almost certain we're going to use Hyper-V, particularly with some of the perks MS throws in....for the backend we're pretty much ready to move to it, the front end stuff like app-v and all that, still up in the air |
| 00:45.03 | Industrial | Arrowmaster: yeah I'm picky. I usually can't stand retarded animes like dokuro-chan (forgot the full-name) |
| 00:45.12 | Industrial | and harem comedy in general |
| 00:45.33 | Dagmar | theorbtwo: Mainly a masochist I think. I still "do" IT security even though that's not my current job description, and I *despise* being caught flatfooted in trends |
| 00:45.35 | cbreak | last week I started watching a really bad anime... |
| 00:45.36 | Arrowmaster | BLASPHEMY! |
| 00:45.40 | cbreak | Final Fantasy Unlimited |
| 00:45.45 | Arrowmaster | how can you not like dokuro-chan! |
| 00:46.32 | Dagmar | theorbtwo: So I'm still on numerous mailing lists for no reason other than to keep an eye on the trends in spook behaviour and malware, because I *will* eventually get un-burnt-out enough to start demanding people pay me for it again |
| 00:47.05 | theorbtwo | nods. |
| 00:47.18 | Dagmar | theorbtwo: That and I get a wee bit tired of people trying to tell me things about software as if they actually knew what the fuck they were talking about when they don't. I refuse to let (for lack of a better phrase) "holistic" computing people proliferate in my city |
| 00:47.24 | Industrial | ergo proxy, berserk, hajime no ippo, nodame cantabile, eureka seven, planetes are some of my favorites. I love mecha's. |
| 00:47.37 | Industrial | I should buy more gundam figurines :p |
| 00:48.07 | Dagmar | theorbtwo: There's a coffee house I frequent where I'm known and loved, and known to occasionally pretty much eat a total stranger _alive_ for saying something that I know they made up to tell some client and I overheard it |
| 00:48.07 | A-KO | Dagmar: http://blogs.technet.com/virtualization/archive/2009/11/06/Visual-Studio-Lab-Management-2010-beta-2.aspx |
| 00:48.17 | A-KO | lol Dagmar nice. |
| 00:48.22 | A-KO | I just sit in meetings and call people idiots |
| 00:48.27 | A-KO | I don't get invited to many meetings |
| 00:48.40 | Arrowmaster | Industrial: seen the new gundam yet? |
| 00:48.46 | theorbtwo | grins. |
| 00:48.53 | Industrial | Arrowmaster: wuh what where when? |
| 00:48.53 | Dagmar | The last time someone was telling their client they didn't want to use Google Apps for their mail, because Google had "horrible downtime". |
| 00:49.10 | Industrial | I've not watched much anime the last 3-4 months so been kind of out fo the loop |
| 00:49.12 | A-KO | depending on the business, I usually opt against google apps |
| 00:49.18 | A-KO | lives near a bunch of govt. contractors |
| 00:49.20 | Arrowmaster | Industrial: http://myanimelist.net/anime/6336/Mobile_Suit_Gundam_Unicorn |
| 00:49.20 | Dagmar | It was just their bad luck I'd been asked to come up with a specific figure about that for management only two days before. |
| 00:49.26 | cbreak | Industrial: watched "Dai Guard"? |
| 00:49.36 | Industrial | the last I've seen (tried to watch actually) was 00 but I really didnt like it |
| 00:49.42 | Dagmar | The specific figure at the time was 99.9683% uptime |
| 00:49.49 | A-KO | Dagmar: A problem I have right now is that a govt. contractor (defense contractor) nearby is being told to use google apps for their business e-mail |
| 00:49.50 | Industrial | 'lets stop everyone from waging war .. by killing them!" |
| 00:49.52 | A-KO | I'm trying ot push them against it |
| 00:49.56 | Industrial | fail~ |
| 00:50.02 | Arrowmaster | Industrial: how far into it did you get? |
| 00:50.09 | A-KO | and get a rack in our colo and managed VPN solutions |
| 00:50.13 | Dagmar | A-KO: The issue there then becomes whether or not they can have their email physically in the hands of other people |
| 00:50.26 | Industrial | 20 ep's or so I think into the first season |
| 00:50.28 | A-KO | yeah Dagmar, yeah. |
| 00:50.29 | kd3 | telling people idiots? I love doing that |
| 00:50.41 | cbreak | are they even allowed to do that? |
| 00:50.44 | Industrial | I LOVED wing, X, seed, seed destiny though. |
| 00:50.56 | theorbtwo | 2.7 hours/year. |
| 00:50.57 | A-KO | cbreak: put it in our dc? not sure, but I do know that google apps probably isn't :P |
| 00:50.58 | Dagmar | I challenged this woman, and she had claimed a figure _below_ 90% and I pretty much let her have both barrels |
| 00:51.03 | theorbtwo | That's pretty fucking good. |
| 00:51.11 | Industrial | cbreak: I haven't |
| 00:51.12 | Arrowmaster | 00 was rather good imho but not the best, second season wasnt just under the first probably |
| 00:51.13 | cbreak | I mean sending government stuff to google |
| 00:51.19 | A-KO | Google's got a pretty good uptime, but I prefer fully managed environments--if and when google DOES go down, you have 0 control over it. |
| 00:51.28 | cbreak | Industrial: it's a more "realistic" mecha anime. One of the few I liked :) |
| 00:51.28 | A-KO | cbreak: Don't think they are, but I'm not certain. |
| 00:51.38 | A-KO | granted |
| 00:51.42 | A-KO | hosting email is a fucking pain in the ass |
| 00:51.48 | Dagmar | It's the bullshit artists posing as consultants that make it hard for people like me who don't take projects unless we're damn sure we're going to knock something out of the park. |
| 00:51.50 | A-KO | I hate SMTP for all it's worth |
| 00:51.55 | Industrial | cbreak: cool I'll check it out |
| 00:52.00 | NeoTron | the benefit is that when end if google DOES go down, you don't have to try to fix it |
| 00:52.11 | Dagmar | A-KO: That's completely natural, and treatable with the proper amounts of alcohol. ;) |
| 00:52.15 | cbreak | it's still more in the direction of comedy though. |
| 00:52.20 | theorbtwo | sighs. SMTP is perhaps the greatest example of the great backcompat problem. |
| 00:52.25 | cbreak | if you like fun, sayonara zetsubou sensei. |
| 00:52.26 | A-KO | NeoTron: You do know that e-mail is the primary form of communication for almost all businesses..... |
| 00:52.38 | cbreak | wasn't it facebook? :/ |
| 00:52.53 | Dagmar | I did tell the email group here that "money doesn't stack high enough" when they tried to get me to transfer into their department |
| 00:52.54 | cbreak | e-mail was for backups and file syncing! |
| 00:53.10 | A-KO | Dagmar: Actually, I just dislike e-mail and all of that....setting up postfix, sendmail, all of that shit is the largest pain in the ass and definitely not conducive to today's virtualized environments without LOTS of trickery. |
| 00:53.37 | Arrowmaster | Industrial: seed's my favorite, i hate some parts of wing though but i guess not enough to say not to watch it |
| 00:53.40 | theorbtwo | Hm. I don't see the relation to virtualization... then again, I'm not a sysadmin. |
| 00:53.43 | A-KO | setting up a virtual domain hosted email solution on linux is one of the most god awful torturing things you can do in IT |
| 00:53.57 | NeoTron | I hate email setup to. which is wy I moved stuff I have to google apps |
| 00:53.58 | Industrial | is so glad he became interested in software development and not system administration :p |
| 00:54.01 | Dagmar | A-KO: Well, if you're assigning dedicated IPs to things it's a lot easier. The virtual hosting stuff is a massive bitch to config tho, I agree |
| 00:54.02 | NeoTron | just to get rid of that crap |
| 00:54.34 | Dagmar | Ten domains with ten namespaces is easily more than ten times a bigger pain in the ass on one machine than ten separate ones. |
| 00:54.34 | cbreak | there should be enough IPs for everyone nowadays |
| 00:54.39 | cbreak | thanks to IPv6! |
| 00:54.43 | Industrial | Arrowmaster: did you see X, after war? I'm not really fond of the really old ones (except MS team those rock!) like war in the pocket |
| 00:54.49 | A-KO | It's gotten to the point where I've almost wanted to learn software dev JUST to write a better mail environment |
| 00:54.58 | A-KO | because...damn |
| 00:54.59 | A-KO | lol |
| 00:55.02 | theorbtwo | Another example of the great backcompat / installed base problem. |
| 00:55.19 | Arrowmaster | A-KO: dont bother, things suck so much because of the standards |
| 00:55.30 | Industrial | software; write once, never look back! |
| 00:55.38 | Industrial | marches forward |
| 00:55.44 | theorbtwo | Standards: Start once. Repent at leasure. |
| 00:56.11 | cbreak | the e-mail standards can't be that bad |
| 00:56.16 | theorbtwo | SMTP is probably the oldest TCP-based protocol that shows no signs of dying any time soon. |
| 00:56.20 | theorbtwo | cbreak: Yes, they really can. |
| 00:56.21 | cbreak | they aren't that long after all |
| 00:56.24 | A-KO | but at any rate, I generally find that when I'm building Windows environments, I'm usually doing more to solve the actual problems and doing something--whereas with linux, you just spend a lot more time making the environment actually work and do simple things......granted, all OS' have their nuances and whatnot....and MS is certainly not free of those, but I've found *in general*.... |
| 00:56.35 | theorbtwo | SMTP is completely trusting. |
| 00:56.44 | theorbtwo | That's the basic problem. |
| 00:56.53 | Arrowmaster | the disconnect between SMTP and POP/IMAP is horrible |
| 00:56.57 | A-KO | yeah Arrowmaster |
| 00:57.04 | cbreak | most protocols are trusting |
| 00:57.19 | Arrowmaster | also IMAP is horrible but atleast better than POP |
| 00:57.31 | Dagmar | A-Ko: Once you get better with Linux that issue goes away |
| 00:57.49 | Dagmar | Most people's problems with unix stem directly from the fact that they do *not* build upon their previous works. |
| 00:58.13 | Dagmar | They might do five SMTP server rollouts in five years, and every time they'll start over from scratch. |
| 00:58.35 | theorbtwo | cbreak: Most protocols validate you, and then trust you with your own stuff. SMTP is designed to be store-and-forward, and doesn't have a good way of handling logins. |
| 00:58.52 | Dagmar | If you had to build an NSIS install package for every Windows mechanism, each time you set it up, you'd be having the same issues I suspect |
| 00:59.37 | cbreak | there are ways to make smpt require authentication |
| 00:59.44 | Dagmar | theorbtwo: It's um, kinda not SMTP's job to give a damn about users |
| 01:00.02 | cbreak | I don't know if it's in any standard, but I've seen smtp refuse to work until you used pop to authenticate |
| 01:00.03 | A-KO | I think in this day and age a better mechanism for authentication needs to be put into place |
| 01:00.06 | Dagmar | it's the sleazy shits out there spamming who've made it a near necessity tho |
| 01:00.12 | cbreak | or individual password authentication directly |
| 01:00.24 | theorbtwo | There's hacks a-plenty. |
| 01:00.43 | Dagmar | cbreak: There's ways to do SMTP AUTH but that pop thing you speak of is one of the more common hacks |
| 01:00.46 | theorbtwo | But they don't work when you are accepting mail from the internet at large. They are only useful for *outgoing* mail. |
| 01:01.03 | cbreak | maybe it would be more convenient to just require signed e-mails |
| 01:01.10 | Shadowed | All of the old internet protocols are horrible :P |
| 01:01.16 | cbreak | then you wouldn't have to authenticate yourself, the data you send would already be authenticated |
| 01:01.25 | theorbtwo | There's no way on earth I can stop people from sending mail that claims to be from me. |
| 01:01.28 | ScytheBlade1 | Shadowed: whatever, telnet is awesome |
| 01:01.31 | Shadowed | too much backwards compatibility causes all of them issues |
| 01:01.35 | Shadowed | You shush |
| 01:01.43 | A-KO | cbreak: I could see it now, then that would require people to build a CA infrastructure |
| 01:01.47 | A-KO | not many people know how to do that ;) |
| 01:01.48 | Dagmar | cbreak: That keeps coming up, and it keeps never really getting very far because all the signing mechanisms are highly complex and add signficant computational overhead |
| 01:01.52 | theorbtwo | Yes, and most of them are slowly going by the wayside. |
| 01:02.00 | Shadowed | It doesn't really matter |
| 01:02.08 | Dagmar | Like, just imagine if your SMTP server did a cryptographic validation on each incoming mail |
| 01:02.08 | Shadowed | Any solution has to be backwards compatible, or else it'll never get adopted |
| 01:02.16 | theorbtwo | telnet is being replaced by ssh, ftp is being replaced by scp and http. |
| 01:02.18 | cbreak | it can't be that bad |
| 01:02.23 | cbreak | people use SSL after all |
| 01:02.25 | ScytheBlade1 | And I'd kinda disagree that SMTP's problem is backwards compat |
| 01:02.29 | A-KO | cbreak: lol |
| 01:02.32 | Dagmar | ...because it would have to validate the signatures (or attempt to) for _spam_ as well. |
| 01:02.36 | ScytheBlade1 | Considering how much it has evolved, it is somewhat impressive |
| 01:02.38 | A-KO | people use SSL but don't know how it works |
| 01:02.48 | theorbtwo | People use SSL badly. |
| 01:02.48 | ScytheBlade1 | Dagmar: that's great, Yahoo and Hotmail do |
| 01:02.48 | cbreak | and opening an SSL session is probably not more computationally expensive than signing an e-mail |
| 01:02.49 | Shadowed | ScytheBlade1: Backwards compatible in the sense that, you can't just say "All email now requires X" |
| 01:02.49 | Xyphoid | at the current rate ftp will be dead by the year 2350 |
| 01:02.54 | Dagmar | A-KO: Like management! :) |
| 01:02.59 | ScytheBlade1 | Shadowed: fair enough |
| 01:03.09 | Shadowed | ScytheBlade1: You can make improvements here and there, but there's a limit to how much you can do, because in the end if you break all email for people who don't update |
| 01:03.10 | A-KO | god Dagmar don't get me started on management. |
| 01:03.14 | Shadowed | you'll get pissed people |
| 01:03.18 | Dagmar | cbreak: It's not the signing that's the issue. It's the checking of the signature |
| 01:03.23 | Shadowed | IE is a good example of what I'm talking about |
| 01:03.25 | A-KO | at risk of it getting to my company, I wish they would fire every middle manager in my company |
| 01:03.47 | Shadowed | It doesn't matter that there is, or can be better, you will always have people clinging to an old method for a while and it's hard to tell them "Stop being lazy and update" |
| 01:03.48 | Dagmar | ...and signing alone is significantly more computationally intensive than "just" sending mail |
| 01:03.51 | cbreak | checking few e-mails shouldn't be a problem |
| 01:03.59 | cbreak | if you want to check all the spam on the server, it probably is |
| 01:04.05 | ScytheBlade1 | If more people cared to deploy SPF (which is not directly related to SMTP..) we would very rapidly generate a list of spammers |
| 01:04.09 | cbreak | hmm. |
| 01:04.12 | Dagmar | For SSL transactions, you can pretty easily (<$300) buy accellerator cards for your servers |
| 01:04.14 | cbreak | maybe there are shortcuts |
| 01:04.16 | A-KO | Dagmar: the real question is, which will happen first? ipv6, dnssec, or e-mails with a signing structure? ;P |
| 01:04.19 | Shadowed | Wasn't there a relatively clever idea where you generated a key that took maybe 1s-2s to do? |
| 01:04.28 | ScytheBlade1 | I'm pretty sure that, say Blizzard, would notice a drastic reduction in phishing |
| 01:04.31 | Shadowed | So you could significantly reduce the number of spam people had to send out |
| 01:04.32 | Dagmar | A-KO: Probably DNSSEC |
| 01:04.40 | theorbtwo | You can't just say "I only accept cryptographicly signed email", because you'll miss tons of email. |
| 01:04.40 | ScytheBlade1 | A-KO: amusingly, I run and operate all three |
| 01:04.41 | cbreak | A-KO: I read that .gov already uses DNSSEC |
| 01:04.43 | Shadowed | s/had/could/ |
| 01:04.51 | ScytheBlade1 | 64 bytes from yw-in-x93.1e100.net: icmp_seq=1 ttl=54 time=209 ms |
| 01:04.55 | Shadowed | Although I guess with botnets, a lot of that doesn't matter |
| 01:04.55 | ScytheBlade1 | ^ ipv6 google |
| 01:05.01 | theorbtwo | ...and people won't start signing email unless tons of people will miss their mails otherwise. |
| 01:05.11 | Dagmar | Shadowed: There's plenty of ways to do that, but the bottleneck is still the recieving server, which may normally take in 300-400 plaintext mails in that same amount of time |
| 01:05.16 | Shadowed | true |
| 01:05.28 | cbreak | the true bottleneck is the user |
| 01:05.33 | Shadowed | But yea, pretty much all of these are nice ideas, that will not happen for years and years and years :P |
| 01:05.35 | cbreak | who is slow reading all those viagra mails |
| 01:05.42 | Dagmar | Signing mails can stop the problem of a user seeing spam, but it can't do much of anything to stop someone from sending spam |
| 01:05.44 | Shadowed | haha that's another issue entirely |
| 01:06.11 | cbreak | if it's unseen, it's just background radiation |
| 01:06.14 | theorbtwo | Er, actually, it won't stop people from sending, or seeing, spam. It'll only stop them from forging headers. |
| 01:06.16 | cbreak | that costs the providers a ton |
| 01:06.28 | Dagmar | We can't easily require certs on _sending_ mail because either certs are easy to get and therefore meaningless, or certs become expensive and suddenly email can't be free |
| 01:06.32 | cbreak | you can easier whitelist :) |
| 01:06.37 | A-KO | Dagmar: no, but it could cut down on it by building a trail back to the spammers or at least the company (whatever that may be) that got the cert |
| 01:06.44 | Shadowed | It would be easier to educate users to not respond to spam emails reducing the monetary incentives than get everyone to fix the spam issues :p |
| 01:07.01 | Dagmar | A-KO: What would you say if I were to just say "China" to that question every time. 78% of the time I'd be right. |
| 01:07.02 | ScytheBlade1 | Dagmar: don't think of crypto as a fix all, think of it as a means of building accurate blacklists/whitelists |
| 01:07.07 | Shadowed | or kill spammers |
| 01:07.11 | Shadowed | that would be pretty effective too |
| 01:07.13 | Dagmar | ~Shadowed++ |
| 01:07.15 | A-KO | true Dagmar |
| 01:07.19 | Dagmar | Hunt, _then_ kill them. |
| 01:07.25 | Dagmar | I would so pay money |
| 01:07.36 | cbreak | I'd say most people who send spam are in europe or the us |
| 01:07.37 | Dagmar | Long pig spam for dinner tonight baby! |
| 01:07.45 | cbreak | and have a computer that takes part of a colaborative bot network |
| 01:07.46 | A-KO | either way, there are some real problems in IT, one of which is "how to get users to stop e-mailing coworkers for everything!" |
| 01:07.53 | Shadowed | yea |
| 01:07.59 | A-KO | "hey I've got this 25MB picture from my camera you just have to see!" |
| 01:08.02 | Shadowed | The social problem is a lot easier to fix than the technology problem |
| 01:08.13 | cbreak | social problems can't be fixed... |
| 01:08.15 | A-KO | eh, fixable with decent technology |
| 01:08.16 | Shadowed | I say "a lot easier" in the relative sense :P |
| 01:08.20 | A-KO | MS offers a great one :P |
| 01:08.21 | cbreak | A-KO: e-mail send limits |
| 01:08.28 | A-KO | Office integration with Sharepoint |
| 01:08.31 | Dagmar | A-KO: Remember the dancing baby? |
| 01:08.33 | cbreak | (for size and format... limited to plain text!) |
| 01:08.35 | A-KO | oh god Dagmar |
| 01:08.36 | A-KO | yes |
| 01:08.40 | Dagmar | It KILLED the email servers where I workede |
| 01:08.53 | A-KO | nice |
| 01:09.05 | Dagmar | So when that Lewinsky report came out, we weren't stupid. We got a copy of the damn thing through "channels" and put it on an internal website and told employees they didn't need to go mailing it to each othre |
| 01:09.31 | cbreak | maybe ZFS with auto-deduplication would help... |
| 01:09.40 | cbreak | searches for more buzzwords |
| 01:09.41 | Arrowmaster | it wouldnt |
| 01:09.48 | Arrowmaster | not for the way email is stored |
| 01:09.51 | cbreak | is it on a file-level? |
| 01:09.56 | A-KO | Office integration with Sharepoint is a nice feature..."user A sends document to user B" "Sharepoint creates link, sends link instead of file." "user b forwards it to user's c, d, e" |
| 01:09.58 | A-KO | they all get link |
| 01:10.02 | Dagmar | ~Arrowmaster++ |
| 01:10.37 | Arrowmaster | im guessing it is, but even if its not the exact same binary content can be represented multiple ways in an email |
| 01:10.44 | Dagmar | A-Ko: Yet any of those jackasses would normally be quite capable of dragging and dropping a file into a fileshare and pasting a URL, *if* they weren't idiots |
| 01:11.01 | Arrowmaster | oh yeah, current rfc's STILL FUCKING SAY EMAIL IS 7BIT ONLY! |
| 01:11.15 | Dagmar | No they don't. |
| 01:11.21 | Dagmar | That went away awhile back. |
| 01:11.24 | Arrowmaster | 5322 does |
| 01:11.30 | A-KO | Dagmar: true, but then you run into the problems that still exist today in most businesses--massive fileshare servers that nobody knows what it all does, who has access to what, that built up over the years--but if you move one thing out of place some random schmoe will be calling IT bitching up a storm. |
| 01:11.30 | theorbtwo | Arrowmaster: Er, unless you get ehlo 8bitmime. |
| 01:11.32 | Arrowmaster | i just looked at it yesterday |
| 01:11.34 | Shadowed | SMTP/HTTP etc are pretty interesting protocols thought |
| 01:11.37 | theorbtwo | ...which you will. |
| 01:11.38 | Dagmar | We've had MIME extentions in email for ages. Only the handshaking part needs to be 7-bit/8-bit |
| 01:11.54 | ScytheBlade1 | HTTP is also something that is doing a large amount of things it wasn't designed for |
| 01:11.58 | ScytheBlade1 | Better than SMTP is, but still |
| 01:12.09 | A-KO | file transfers |
| 01:12.11 | A-KO | ... |
| 01:13.16 | cbreak | protocols seem to get abused when they work |
| 01:13.24 | Industrial | cbreak, Arrowmaster; btw I can really recommend Planetes; it starts out meh but you grow into it and the ending is beautiful. |
| 01:13.38 | cbreak | I watched the first 5 mins, got bored :/ |
| 01:13.52 | Arrowmaster | Industrial: yes watched it multiple times, great anime |
| 01:13.56 | Shadowed | I wouldn't really say abused cbreak |
| 01:13.58 | A-KO | though I'm still not a huge fan of why people hate on FTP so much....FTPS solves the "security" problem that people seem to have with it |
| 01:13.59 | theorbtwo | HTTP is nicely general. |
| 01:14.07 | Arrowmaster | ive heard theres going to be a bluray release of it |
| 01:14.11 | DWSR | I just duo'ed Saphiron10. |
| 01:14.12 | DWSR | Win |
| 01:14.16 | Shadowed | It's more that they start to get used, get established... then trying to improve on them drastically is the equivalent to taking down a mountain |
| 01:14.22 | cbreak | A-KO: FTP requires a data and a control port |
| 01:14.23 | kd3 | there's about to be a blu-ray of nadesico (if it isn't already out) |
| 01:14.26 | theorbtwo | OTOH, it's also not really designed to be symetric. |
| 01:14.48 | Shadowed | It's more the result of a 30something year old format |
| 01:14.50 | Arrowmaster | why is HTTP/1.1 pipelining still not being used? |
| 01:15.03 | theorbtwo | Yeah, the two-port thing is far more of a pain in the ass then the lack of security. |
| 01:15.06 | Shadowed | oh wait, 20 |
| 01:15.08 | A-KO | cbreak: true, that kind of sucks, but I sit in a few channels for managing servers and people do some serious hatred on FTP......it's unfortunate that they don't do more education to the users, they just blame the protocol. |
| 01:15.25 | cbreak | I like SSH |
| 01:15.26 | DWSR | A-KO: What Shadowed said. |
| 01:15.29 | cbreak | mainly because it works |
| 01:15.35 | DWSR | A-KO: Use SCP. |
| 01:15.36 | theorbtwo | I mean, most of the time, you don't need security, because you are doing anonymous transfers anyway. |
| 01:15.41 | kd3 | ya, but the data transfer rates over sftp are pain |
| 01:15.41 | Shadowed | It's like everything :p |
| 01:15.42 | ScytheBlade1 | FTP |
| 01:15.43 | ScytheBlade1 | needs |
| 01:15.44 | ScytheBlade1 | to |
| 01:15.44 | ScytheBlade1 | die |
| 01:15.45 | ScytheBlade1 | now |
| 01:15.49 | Arrowmaster | SFTP/SCP is not a replacement for all FTP uses |
| 01:15.54 | Shadowed | At a certain point you need to kill off an old format and start over, you just don't have that luxury most of the time |
| 01:15.55 | A-KO | Arrowmaster, thank you. |
| 01:15.56 | A-KO | <3 |
| 01:15.57 | A-KO | much <3 |
| 01:16.08 | Shadowed | you rarely do in fact |
| 01:16.11 | A-KO | FTP with Explicit SSL is nice |
| 01:16.19 | DWSR | A-KO: Meh. |
| 01:16.19 | A-KO | and it's a great bridge between the two worlds |
| 01:16.22 | ScytheBlade1 | No it isn't |
| 01:16.31 | ScytheBlade1 | It's still outright butchered by firewalls |
| 01:16.32 | DWSR | It's not really. |
| 01:16.36 | DWSR | It's a huge hack |
| 01:16.50 | A-KO | so use implicit FTP and let the users optionally tick the little box that says "SSL" :P |
| 01:17.04 | A-KO | err |
| 01:17.06 | A-KO | implicit ssl* |
| 01:17.07 | Arrowmaster | seriously try transfering large amounts of data over an internal LAN using SFTP/SCP, the encryption uses up so much cpu time at those speeds that it bottlenecks on hardware just a few years old for 100mbit networks |
| 01:17.07 | ScytheBlade1 | No, "stop using FTP" |
| 01:17.35 | Shadowed | I manually enter the 1s and 0s over SSH |
| 01:17.39 | A-KO | ScytheBlade1: I have yet to see a truly good reason for not using FTP, in fact, the 2 port thing is the closest people come to it :P |
| 01:17.40 | ScytheBlade1 | Arrowmaster: I routinely copy 20GB files around gigabit networks on a rather old CPU... at >40MB/sec |
| 01:17.41 | kd3 | 21:15:41 kd3: ya, but the data transfer rates over sftp are pain |
| 01:17.41 | Shadowed | that's how much I hate FTP |
| 01:17.57 | DWSR | Arrowmaster: If I'm on an internal lan, I'm using somethign besides FTP. |
| 01:18.09 | Corrodias | what about external LANs? |
| 01:18.10 | ScytheBlade1 | A-KO: the two-port thing is the only reason. Implicit SSL and that automatically means that firewalls CANNOT cope with it. |
| 01:18.16 | Arrowmaster | ScytheBlade1: umm i get 60MB/s on my 100mbit, you should be getting much much more on gigabit |
| 01:18.20 | tekkub | FTP is such an arcane protocol |
| 01:18.26 | A-KO | firewalls cannot cope with it? how do they cope with HTTPS then? It's the same damn thing |
| 01:18.33 | DWSR | A-KO: No it's not. |
| 01:18.34 | ScytheBlade1 | Arrowmaster: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=100+megabits+in+megabytes |
| 01:18.36 | tekkub | everyting else is like straightforward client/server |
| 01:18.37 | ScytheBlade1 | .... |
| 01:18.43 | tekkub | but FTP? no~000 |
| 01:18.47 | theorbtwo | A-KO: No, it isn't. |
| 01:18.48 | ScytheBlade1 | No no nono no |
| 01:18.51 | ScytheBlade1 | Not even close |
| 01:18.53 | tekkub | everyone gets to be both a client AND a server! |
| 01:18.55 | ScytheBlade1 | HTTP? One port! |
| 01:18.59 | DWSR | ^^ |
| 01:19.01 | ScytheBlade1 | FTP? PICK A PORT AT RANDOM, GO! |
| 01:19.05 | Arrowmaster | ScytheBlade1: sorry |
| 01:19.09 | ScytheBlade1 | HOPE YOUR FIREWALL IS OKAY WITH THAT! |
| 01:19.12 | ScytheBlade1 | shudders |
| 01:19.13 | cbreak | BitTorrent? :) |
| 01:19.19 | Corrodias | BT uses one |
| 01:19.20 | A-KO | and what's wrong with that if you build a passive FTP system and open the rules properly? I don't see the issue... |
| 01:19.20 | DWSR | cbreak: Still only 1 port |
| 01:19.21 | cbreak | let's just use that for file transfer... |
| 01:19.25 | Xyphoid | client: sorry, we only support active ftp |
| 01:19.25 | Arrowmaster | dont usually fuck those up like that |
| 01:19.32 | Xyphoid | fun fun |
| 01:19.35 | ScytheBlade1 | Arrowmaster: ahh, gotcha. np, had me really confused for a sec |
| 01:19.43 | tekkub | "passive" FTP should have been the damn default |
| 01:19.44 | A-KO | which FTP client doesn't support passive FTP at this point? |
| 01:19.50 | A-KO | tekkub: it is in most modern clients |
| 01:19.57 | Xyphoid | a server that didn't support passive |
| 01:19.59 | tekkub | I wouldn't know :) |
| 01:20.02 | theorbtwo | You need to snoop on the control connection to find out what port is being used for data... but you can't very well do that if it's encrypted. |
| 01:20.06 | DWSR | Lots of servers don't support passive. |
| 01:20.13 | A-KO | which? |
| 01:20.17 | tekkub | last time I used FTP... I was in college working from home instead of going into the *shudder* linux lab |
| 01:20.18 | ScytheBlade1 | A-KO: okay great, so we moved the problem from the client to the server.. and just due to the two-port deal, it will still break |
| 01:20.21 | DWSR | theorbtwo: You can if the firewall has the key. |
| 01:20.22 | A-KO | which FTP server software doesn't support passive? |
| 01:20.29 | tekkub | they hated me, I kept overwriting the file perms |
| 01:20.31 | kd3 | meh, it's more of a config setting |
| 01:20.32 | DWSR | theorbtwo: But then you need a fucking well built firewall, which most people don't have. |
| 01:20.39 | Shadowed | Yea I don't think I've used FTP for a while actually |
| 01:20.46 | A-KO | ScytheBlade1: how? proftpd and filezilla (2 very popular FTP servers) let you define the ports used for the passive connections |
| 01:20.51 | Arrowmaster | its been a while since ive used sftp trying to remember but now that i think about it in the correct speeds i think i could get 10MB/s with samba but only 2MB/s max with SFTP, but one of the boxes was a 600mhz P3 |
| 01:20.52 | Xyphoid | i have no idea, it was a clients ftp server |
| 01:20.57 | DWSR | A-KO: It's not that server SOFTWARE doesn't support passive. It's that servers are usually not configured with it. |
| 01:21.05 | ScytheBlade1 | A-KO: that's great. once you can tell your firewall too, get back to me. Because it is STILL BROKEN. |
| 01:21.09 | A-KO | DWSR: who's fault is that? |
| 01:21.16 | DWSR | A-KO: The protocol's. |
| 01:21.30 | DWSR | Why the fuck does it require a reconfiguration of your firewall to handle the same protocol? |
| 01:21.30 | cbreak | do you need a firewall on the server? |
| 01:21.33 | A-KO | ScytheBlade1: uuuhm.....I don't see your point? You forward the ports like any other TCP rule through a firewall.... |
| 01:21.34 | theorbtwo | In any case, IIRC, passive doesn't really fix the problem. You still have two ports, it just changes who chooses. |
| 01:21.46 | cbreak | if the server opens random ports, they can't very well filter much out anyway |
| 01:21.58 | A-KO | theorbtwo: true, but it's not like that's a huge problem--you can get around it, and if you configure the server software properly it's easy enough. |
| 01:22.09 | ScytheBlade1 | A-KO: no you can't, because it picks a port at random and uses it. If you're using SSL (which you should be), the firewall can't see the port it picked, which is a good enough reason to outright deny the outbount connection attempt |
| 01:22.19 | DWSR | ^^ |
| 01:22.19 | theorbtwo | A-KO: Or you could use HTTP, which just fucking works. |
| 01:22.22 | A-KO | ScytheBlade1: uhm, I don't know which FTP server software you use, but mine do not choose ports at random |
| 01:22.29 | A-KO | they choose exactly what I tell them to |
| 01:22.30 | DWSR | A-KO: Yes, it most certainly does. |
| 01:22.42 | ScytheBlade1 | A-KO: it gives you a range, sure |
| 01:22.49 | ScytheBlade1 | A-KO: that says nothing at all about the firewall on the client's side |
| 01:23.07 | A-KO | but you have no control over their side, so that's their problem |
| 01:23.12 | ScytheBlade1 | no |
| 01:23.13 | Xyphoid | basically NAT is really important these days and FTP is really fun with NAT |
| 01:23.17 | ScytheBlade1 | That's the... protocol's fault! |
| 01:23.25 | A-KO | Xyphoid: again, something configurable in FTP server software |
| 01:23.37 | ScytheBlade1 | Funny thing, HTTP goes through just fine |
| 01:23.41 | ScytheBlade1 | FTP, again, cannot |
| 01:23.51 | theorbtwo | A-KO: Yes, you can carefully configure a ftp server and firewall as a pair, so it will work under most circumstances. |
| 01:24.07 | Xyphoid | i mean, obviously FTP *can work* |
| 01:24.13 | theorbtwo | ...or you can use http, or any other single-connection solution, and it'll just fucking work. |
| 01:24.21 | cbreak | like SSH |
| 01:24.31 | cbreak | it works nicely :) |
| 01:24.37 | cbreak | (even if a bit slow) |
| 01:24.38 | DWSR | Yep |
| 01:24.43 | DWSR | So |
| 01:24.45 | DWSR | Your options are |
| 01:24.49 | DWSR | Some arcane protocol of fail. |
| 01:24.50 | DWSR | Or |
| 01:24.56 | DWSR | Some arcane protocol that Just Works(tm). |
| 01:25.01 | DWSR | You can see why FTP sucks. |
| 01:25.05 | ScytheBlade1 | In order to support FTP, either actively or passively, you can either (1) say "forget it" and not run a firewall, (2) configure *both* endpoints to accept it properly, (3) drop SSL, whitelist the servers accordingly, and let the firewall sniff your traffic to allow it |
| 01:25.08 | cbreak | you could send the files to the server via e-mail |
| 01:25.09 | A-KO | ......I fail to see the problem here :P |
| 01:25.11 | ScytheBlade1 | or (4) use another protocol |
| 01:25.23 | A-KO | I still don't quite understand what you all smoke when it comes to using FTP software, but damn |
| 01:25.34 | A-KO | I've never had problems in either proftpd or filezilla-based servers |
| 01:25.35 | ScytheBlade1 | Nothing to do with the software! |
| 01:25.39 | ScytheBlade1 | Nothing! Nothing at all! |
| 01:25.44 | DWSR | ^^ |
| 01:26.02 | cbreak | one side of the FTP connection has to allow incomming traffic on a wide range of ports |
| 01:26.04 | ScytheBlade1 | Nothing to do with the client, nothing to do with the server, nothing to do with the software involved |
| 01:26.06 | cbreak | traditionally, that's the client |
| 01:26.16 | Arrowmaster | thats only in active |
| 01:26.18 | cbreak | so the client has to poke holes for the server to open a connection back to it |
| 01:26.18 | Arrowmaster | not passive |
| 01:26.19 | ScytheBlade1 | Everything to do with a protocol that is absolutely broken with today's networks |
| 01:26.26 | cbreak | if you use passive FTP, the server has to do that |
| 01:26.34 | A-KO | cbreak: and that's a problem for a server in your DMZ? |
| 01:26.42 | cbreak | depends |
| 01:26.47 | DWSR | Sometimes yes. |
| 01:26.54 | kd3 | what the hell is something important doing in the dmz? |
| 01:26.55 | DWSR | Also, you're just going to lay a fucking server bare for all to use? |
| 01:27.00 | cbreak | for the servers in my dmz it would |
| 01:27.00 | DWSR | What kd3 said. |
| 01:27.08 | cbreak | because it doesn't get any outside traffic |
| 01:27.35 | ScytheBlade1 | A-KO: it's a problem when you realize the world doesn't make money behind cheap d-link routers where users can hack around FTP's limitations |
| 01:27.36 | A-KO | Forwarding a port "range" means nothing at all except probably host discovery, but I'm not too concerned about host discovery because they'll figure it out somehow.... |
| 01:27.47 | Arrowmaster | i know people hate it but upnp is kinda nice for having a way to give applications a way to communicate with a firewall |
| 01:27.55 | A-KO | ScytheBlade1: lol, If you want to play that card, no, I'm talking both Juniper SRX and SSG and NS devices |
| 01:28.00 | DWSR | Arrowmaster: UPnP is great, when it works. |
| 01:28.09 | kd3 | it's the new "plug and pray" |
| 01:28.12 | ScytheBlade1 | A-KO: okay so. you have a hardware firewall. how do you configure it for FTP? |
| 01:28.13 | DWSR | ^^ |
| 01:28.14 | ScytheBlade1 | Honest question. |
| 01:28.17 | Arrowmaster | the idea behind it is good |
| 01:28.21 | theorbtwo | The problem with upnp is, again, that it doesn't know about authentication. |
| 01:28.27 | cbreak | I think upnp is insecure |
| 01:28.31 | Arrowmaster | it is |
| 01:28.32 | kd3 | because it is |
| 01:28.37 | ScytheBlade1 | ^ |
| 01:28.42 | DWSR | ^^ |
| 01:28.56 | cbreak | ScytheBlade1: you could allow all incomming traffic |
| 01:29.00 | theorbtwo | There's nothing stopping a bad application inside the firewall from opening up a telnet server with no password and asking the firewall nicely for a hole to listen on. |
| 01:29.03 | A-KO | ScytheBlade1: for outgoing? it's not a problem--all of my FTP servers I manage are purely passive configuration. So on my end, nothing at all. You're assuming that I block all outgoing connections, and most sane people simply don't do that--period. And that's because the management involved in setting that up is a pain in the absolute ass. |
| 01:29.15 | ScytheBlade1 | A-KO: I work for a company that does. |
| 01:29.15 | A-KO | for incoming, it's not a problem |
| 01:29.24 | ScytheBlade1 | A-KO: so. |
| 01:29.24 | DWSR | A-KO: Actually, I know lots of places that do that. |
| 01:29.38 | kd3 | 's shop has no unathorized outbound connections |
| 01:29.40 | ScytheBlade1 | A-KO: users must be part of a specific group in AD to even get access to HTTP/HTTPs |
| 01:29.47 | DWSR | ^^ Not uncommon |
| 01:29.55 | cbreak | a passive client requires an active server |
| 01:30.06 | cbreak | so if you have a passive ftp server, you need active clients |
| 01:30.10 | Arrowmaster | no |
| 01:30.29 | cbreak | so, who opens the listening socket for the data channel? |
| 01:30.40 | Arrowmaster | depends on the mode |
| 01:30.48 | Arrowmaster | but you dont say one is passive and one is active |
| 01:31.02 | cbreak | the server is passive, and the client is behind an NAT |
| 01:31.08 | cbreak | (and wants to be passive) |
| 01:31.09 | Arrowmaster | its a client-server connection not a peer2peer |
| 01:31.18 | A-KO | Hey, you build an environment like that, that's something you take up with :P The management on an environment like that for "every situation" is a pain in the ass, and generally, the only time I would put something like that in place is for very specific environments where I know those users won't ever be using stuff like that |
| 01:31.21 | ScytheBlade1 | (I'll note that we also have a group for FTP access. Instead of opening up the ports, it grants you access to a computer that is specially configured just to allow FTP.) |
| 01:31.24 | A-KO | call center staff, level 1 staff |
| 01:32.10 | DWSR | A-KO: Just because you don't think it's a good idea doesn't mean that it isn't a) widely used or b) a good idea. |
| 01:32.21 | ScytheBlade1 | A-KO: well my company is 30k and spans every continent but antartica, and.. it works fine. |
| 01:32.27 | ScytheBlade1 | s/30k/30k people/ |
| 01:32.32 | DWSR | It is a *very* good idea, especially in an office building for an R&D team, for example. |
| 01:33.40 | theorbtwo | Why R&D specificly? I'd have thought it'd be useful for a team that couldn't be trusted to not download malware because somebody with a cute-sounding name sent them an e-card. |
| 01:34.01 | DWSR | theorbtwo: Trade sekrits. |
| 01:34.01 | ScytheBlade1 | ^ |
| 01:34.01 | kd3 | ^^^ |
| 01:34.01 | DWSR | theorbtwo: You know exactly who could have possibly sent out the information. |
| 01:34.10 | theorbtwo | Fair enough, I guess. |
| 01:35.13 | DWSR | Like I said. |
| 01:35.15 | DWSR | It's a good idea. |
| 01:35.41 | DWSR | Maybe not for every application, but when youre company is worth a few hundred million in patents and IP, it's worth knowing who the fuck is doing what. |
| 01:35.48 | DWSR | s/youre/your/ |
| 01:36.04 | ScytheBlade1 | adds a few zeroes to DWSR's statement and nods |
| 01:36.16 | theorbtwo | shudders. |
| 01:36.21 | cbreak | patents? :/ |
| 01:36.29 | cbreak | people still value those too much |
| 01:36.31 | kd3 | suck, but it's part of the minefield |
| 01:36.45 | Corrodias | you remember, that thing you get to keep people from using technology |
| 01:36.54 | cbreak | those companies who spend millions and billions on patents are just dumb |
| 01:37.03 | cbreak | even a grade schooler could invent one click buying |
| 01:37.07 | DWSR | cbreak: IP is pretty important to North American economy. |
| 01:37.19 | ScytheBlade1 | cbreak: incidentially, they're also the ones with millions and billions to do that.. |
| 01:37.22 | cbreak | they don't have enough grade schoolers then to invent their one click ordering |
| 01:37.27 | ScytheBlade1 | cbreak: so it is working |
| 01:37.58 | Dagmar | The one-click thing is pretty edge case |
| 01:38.03 | theorbtwo | Yes, but it takes a genius to realize that the way to make money with one-click buying is to sue all the grade schoolers that invent it! |
| 01:38.27 | Dagmar | One of the big reasons that springs to mind, is that typically people want a confirmation box before they spend some money |
| 01:38.46 | theorbtwo | I know a bunch of people that worked amazon returns. |
| 01:39.03 | theorbtwo | The number of returns that one-click ordering caused was *amazing*. |
| 01:39.09 | Arrowmaster | seriously how really wants to use one-click buying, i dont trust stuff enough to not want to verify it first, and if you have to verify it then its not really one-click is it |
| 01:39.21 | Dagmar | theorbtwo: heheheh |
| 01:39.43 | Arrowmaster | does amazon even use one-click anymore? |
| 01:39.51 | Dagmar | Sort of. |
| 01:40.48 | cbreak | I like one click buying in WoW |
| 01:40.52 | Dagmar | You have to sign in, and then explicitly activate it |
| 01:41.00 | cbreak | it would suck so much if I had to click yes after every gem. |
| 01:41.44 | Heather | hmmm... well, my addon technically works... I can tell it how many shards I want to keep in my bag at all times, and it discards any shards over that amount... |
| 01:42.09 | Dagmar | Heather: Seriously? |
| 01:42.13 | Heather | yes |
| 01:42.23 | Dagmar | Necrosis doesn't even seem to work right on that anymore |
| 01:42.27 | Heather | with only a couple glitches |
| 01:42.35 | Dagmar | There's a possibility that people will want yer addon... oh.. glitches you say |
| 01:42.48 | kd3 | it's not deleting non-soul shards, is it? |
| 01:42.55 | Dagmar | I wound up putting a line of script that destroys all stones >20 |
| 01:43.01 | Heather | no, it's just deleting soul shards |
| 01:43.04 | Dagmar | ...and putting that in before the soul drain thing. |
| 01:43.22 | Industrial | This seems like a very cute mecha; http://myanimelist.net/anime/324/Patlabor |
| 01:43.38 | Dagmar | Tired of seeing "Inventory full" in those judgmental red letters and then looking down to see that I'm carrying 37 soulstones |
| 01:43.42 | Dagmar | er shards |
| 01:43.45 | Heather | 1) when it discards it seems to keep the cursor on one of the shards, as in the picture is still being held by the cursor... but it seems to be a dud... If I try to drop it in my inventory it just goes away |
| 01:44.09 | theorbtwo | That's only two stacks, isn't it? |
| 01:44.09 | Arrowmaster | !api clearcursor |
| 01:44.12 | Heather | 2) the shard counter on the icon in my action bar stays at the previous number rather than being updates to the new number |
| 01:44.19 | lua_bot | ClearCursor: Clears any contents attached to the cursor (http://wowprogramming.com/docs/api/ClearCursor) |
| 01:44.21 | cbreak | what you people need |
| 01:44.26 | cbreak | is the ability to stack soul shards |
| 01:44.40 | kd3 | waits for cata |
| 01:44.49 | Arrowmaster | Heather: try putting a ClearCursor() after the delete |
| 01:44.50 | theorbtwo | Oh. They stack in groups of one? That sounds obnixious. |
| 01:44.53 | Dagmar | cbreak: Frankly, I'd take a way built into the client to RELIABLY destroy the surplus |
| 01:45.00 | cbreak | bliz will probably remove all spells that start with a letter that is not A |
| 01:45.15 | DWSR | Dagmar |
| 01:45.20 | cbreak | to make it more beginner friendly |
| 01:45.35 | cbreak | they will remove the mana of hunters and prot paladins |
| 01:45.59 | cbreak | is speculating |
| 01:46.01 | Heather | 3) I can't figure out how to limit output of a 'you deleted X shards' message to only once... my event handler is apparently called like 4 times every time I move osmething in my bags so the message displays a bunch of times |
| 01:46.21 | kd3 | because the events fire crazy-often |
| 01:46.23 | cbreak | why do you display a message? |
| 01:46.25 | *** part/#wowuidev alestane (~nevin@c-66-30-209-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 01:46.28 | *** join/#wowuidev imbrandon (~bholtscla@ubuntu/member/imbrandon) |
| 01:46.29 | Shadowed | Heather: BAG_UPDATE fires a stupid amount |
| 01:46.29 | kd3 | also, ^ |
| 01:46.40 | Shadowed | You should bucket it 99% of the time |
| 01:46.49 | theorbtwo | Just make it rate-limited. |
| 01:47.01 | cbreak | you could aggregate destructions and only send a message once a player logs out or something |
| 01:47.16 | cbreak | does item destruction require hardware events? |
| 01:47.18 | theorbtwo | Keep track of the last time you did this junk, and if it's less then one second ago, ignore the BAG_UPDATE completely. |
| 01:47.18 | Dagmar | Being that my lock is still leveling and not raiding, I just threw out my soul shard bag entirely and set the upper limit to 8. |
| 01:47.19 | cbreak | probably not |
| 01:47.33 | Shadowed | You can't do it in combat is the only restriction as far as I know |
| 01:47.34 | Wobin | if you can avoid using bag_update, do so =) |
| 01:47.38 | Dagmar | cbreak: Nope, unless Necrosis is cheating like mad |
| 01:47.38 | theorbtwo | If it'sl ess then 5 minutes ago, don't display the message, just add it up. |
| 01:47.50 | Dagmar | It only manages to destroy the excess shards about a third of the time |
| 01:48.08 | cbreak | I remember times |
| 01:48.11 | DWSR | Dagmar: How well do you know your musical scales? |
| 01:48.14 | cbreak | when my raids had to make a 30 min break |
| 01:48.23 | cbreak | so the warlocks could run outside BWL to farm more shards |
| 01:48.39 | cbreak | and now we have excess shards... |
| 01:48.40 | DWSR | cbreak: Yep. I remember bringing 3 bags of shards to raids. |
| 01:48.41 | cbreak | how times change :) |
| 01:48.43 | Dagmar | dwsr: That depends on if you give a damn about things with fancy names like "pentatonic" and co on |
| 01:49.15 | DWSR | Dagmar: lol. I'm looking for a reference chart on which scales/intervals equate to which moods? |
| 01:49.34 | Wobin | like... sad == minor? |
| 01:49.39 | Dagmar | Minor = sad. Diminished == fear/apprehension, major==triumph |
| 01:50.00 | Dagmar | NIN == massive use of diminished sevenths |
| 01:50.01 | Wobin | Resolution == Resolution =P |
| 01:50.05 | Corrodias | in western musical culture |
| 01:50.08 | DWSR | ^^ |
| 01:50.18 | DWSR | Fuck I want a MIDI keyboard. |
| 01:50.19 | DWSR | Anyway |
| 01:50.27 | Dagmar | Granted this is not some magic rule. Depending on how things are set up, major/minor/dim/aug doesn't mean crap |
| 01:50.33 | Corrodias | i believe other musical traditions have a different take on moods and keys |
| 01:50.55 | theorbtwo | should have another go at that old one + arduino idea. |
| 01:50.58 | DWSR | Dagmar: It's usually about the intervals/notes used inside of the scale. |
| 01:50.58 | Dagmar | It's just easiest to frame a sound in those types |
| 01:51.20 | theorbtwo | thinks creating a "midi" keyboard might not actually be that hard. |
| 01:51.21 | Dagmar | dwsr: The major/minor/etc +is+ the interval |
| 01:51.35 | DWSR | Dagmar: Oh, I thought you were talking about scales? :P |
| 01:52.05 | Dagmar | Please tell me you're not one of those people who completely doesn't get sound |
| 01:52.11 | theorbtwo | It's certianly not impossible to make sad music with major intervals... it's just harder. |
| 01:52.29 | DWSR | Dagmar: I've got a fair amount of classical training + theory work. |
| 01:52.33 | DWSR | Dagmar: I know my sound, well enough anyway. |
| 01:52.34 | Dagmar | You don't think C-sharp and D-flat are different pitches or something do you? |
| 01:52.37 | DWSR | No. |
| 01:52.42 | Dagmar | Okay... Then it's just a nomenclature thing. heh |
| 01:53.02 | Dagmar | whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half <-- intervals like I was talking about |
| 01:53.13 | DWSR | yeap |
| 01:53.20 | Wobin | TTSTTTS |
| 01:53.30 | kd3 | ...they are different pitches, just |
| 01:53.35 | kd3 | is a classical violinist |
| 01:54.35 | Dagmar | I spent years in marching and concert and jazz bands, and some guitar lessons before then |
| 01:54.35 | kd3 | now to a pianist, they're the same |
| 01:54.35 | Dagmar | They're the same pitch. |
| 01:54.35 | DWSR | Minor's TSTTSTT, right? |
| 01:54.35 | theorbtwo | kd3: Hm, what's the difference to a violinist? |
| 01:54.35 | DWSR | kd3: I'm a pianist. |
| 01:54.37 | Corrodias | i played a violin, and i'm pretty sure they're the same. |
| 01:54.37 | Dagmar | Depending on how the instrument is built, they might not be the same pitch tho, and that's a peculiarity of the instrument and the way it generates sound |
| 01:54.41 | kd3 | how I place my fingers on the board |
| 01:54.45 | Wobin | there's no set note on a violin |
| 01:54.49 | Heather | aside from likely being really lame since I'm very new to Lua, is there anything wrong with this? http://wowuidev.pastey.net/134283 |
| 01:54.56 | Wobin | aside from open strings |
| 01:55.00 | theorbtwo | is a very, very basic guitarist, and isn't very good at that either. |
| 01:55.03 | Wobin | but it's not as rigid as a piano |
| 01:55.11 | kd3 | c# is just the tiniest bit closer to the bridge than d-flat |
| 01:55.13 | DWSR | Heather: The complete lack of indentation for one. |
| 01:55.19 | Dagmar | Wobin: Same for a trombone, except oddly they still put a tuning slide on them. ;) |
| 01:55.21 | Heather | look at the edit box |
| 01:55.21 | Corrodias | it is only closer if you're playing it badly |
| 01:55.26 | Corrodias | in that sense, D and D are different notes if you play them differently |
| 01:55.27 | Heather | for some reason pastey ate all my indents |
| 01:55.30 | DWSR | Heather: You should be using spaces for indentation. |
| 01:55.45 | DWSR | tabs don't count because tab width varies from machine to machine. |
| 01:55.48 | theorbtwo | Well, yes, it's unfretted, you *can* play any pitch... that doesn't mean that c flat and b sharp aren't supposed to be the same. |
| 01:55.50 | DWSR | space width is constant, relatively. |
| 01:55.54 | Dagmar | Tabs are for FASCISTS |
| 01:56.01 | Wobin | I'm finding having to suck on a reed to play an instrument... an interesting experience =P |
| 01:56.17 | Wobin | recently bought himself a xaphoon, and is honk/tweeting his way through learning it |
| 01:56.25 | DWSR | Heather: line 4 is invalid when i = 0, I think. |
| 01:56.30 | Dagmar | Wobin: Wait... what instrument are you playing? |
| 01:56.40 | Wobin | points up |
| 01:56.47 | Heather | DWSR what? |
| 01:56.51 | Dagmar | You _inhale_ on that thing? |
| 01:56.52 | theorbtwo | (OK, fsvo any. You can't play pitches out of the range of the instrument, obviously...) |
| 01:56.52 | Heather | why would it be invalid? |
| 01:56.55 | Heather | there's a bag 0 |
| 01:56.57 | Wobin | no, blow |
| 01:56.59 | Heather | it's your backpack |
| 01:57.08 | Wobin | but you have to moisten the reed to get it working in the first place |
| 01:57.10 | Dagmar | Oh you're just being sarcastic when you say "suck" then |
| 01:57.13 | Dagmar | Yeah |
| 01:57.22 | DWSR | Heather: When i = 0, the line reads for i = 1, 0 do |
| 01:57.34 | Dagmar | I had a concern there that someone had _really_ steered you wrong on how to play that. hehe |
| 01:57.40 | Wobin | heheh =) |
| 01:57.52 | DWSR | Heather: Wait, nevermind. |
| 01:57.52 | Wobin | man, can you imagine the suction -required- to get a noise out that way? |
| 01:57.54 | Dagmar | I *completely* suck at reeded instruments |
| 01:57.57 | DWSR | Sorry. |
| 01:58.06 | DWSR | Wobin: Wait, suck on a reed? |
| 01:58.13 | Wobin | I've never played one before, aside from a short stint on a flute |
| 01:58.22 | Dagmar | Wobin: It would make high school band much more of a spectator favorite tho |
| 01:58.27 | Wobin | DWSR, to moisten it with saliva |
| 01:58.28 | Heather | sucking on a reed makes it moist, moist reeds don't crack and they sound better |
| 01:58.32 | DWSR | Wobin: Oh, yeah. |
| 01:58.35 | Wobin | a dry reed is harder to play =( |
| 01:58.38 | DWSR | I thought you meant to play the actual thing. |
| 01:58.43 | Wobin | hehe |
| 01:59.01 | DWSR | I used to play the Clarinet, Trombone, Alto Sax, Piano and Bagpipes. |
| 01:59.03 | DWSR | So suck on that. |
| 01:59.04 | DWSR | :P |
| 01:59.13 | Dagmar | Bagpipes don't count |
| 01:59.20 | Heather | anyway... in that code, for some reason now it's not deleting shards |
| 01:59.22 | Dagmar | They sound the same if you drop them |
| 01:59.24 | DWSR | Yes they absofuckinglutelydo. |
| 01:59.30 | DWSR | Dagmar: You've never heard a good piper then. |
| 01:59.40 | Dagmar | DWSR: heheh you're too easy man |
| 02:00.00 | DWSR | meh, you're insulting my Scottish heritage. |
| 02:00.12 | Dagmar | No, I'm just messing with you using a common barb |
| 02:00.14 | Corrodias | you're scottish? man, your heritage sucks! |
| 02:00.20 | Heather | is third (or second? I keep forgetting how to count the generations) generation american, her grandparents were irish and scottish imigrants. |
| 02:00.21 | Corrodias | disses all over that. |
| 02:00.22 | DWSR | Corrodias: Among other things, yes. |
| 02:00.38 | DWSR | !api PickupItem |
| 02:00.39 | lua_bot | PickupItem: Puts an arbitrary item onto the cursor (http://wowprogramming.com/docs/api/PickupItem) |
| 02:00.41 | Dagmar | I played sousaphone, tuba, trombone, french horn, baritone, and once a fluglehorn |
| 02:00.59 | Dagmar | I was really good with the trombone, but fuck the money that makes |
| 02:01.03 | DWSR | yeah |
| 02:01.16 | Wobin | Heather, second |
| 02:01.25 | Dagmar | Like, if I'd been better at guitar I could mainly stay broke, or once in a blue moon become a big rock star and make a lot of money |
| 02:01.36 | Dagmar | If you play trombone and you hit it really big, you're still mainly broke |
| 02:01.51 | Heather | but your fanboys will be intense, Dagmar |
| 02:01.57 | theorbtwo | shrugs. |
| 02:01.59 | Heather | same with trumpet |
| 02:02.04 | Wobin | Dagmar, Ska bands =) |
| 02:02.14 | theorbtwo | If you want to make it big in music, don't learn an instrument. |
| 02:02.19 | Dagmar | Heather: Actually, there's a thing that playing mouthpieced instruemnts does to your lips that some girls are smart enough to figure out |
| 02:02.25 | theorbtwo | Learn how to be a cult leader instead. |
| 02:02.35 | DWSR | Heather: Your ClearCursor() is superfluous. |
| 02:02.38 | Wobin | Dagmar, http://www.myspace.com/rubixcuba |
| 02:02.40 | Dagmar | Wobin: Yeah I sat in on a ska thing once |
| 02:02.43 | DWSR | Heather: The DeleteCursorItem() will do it for you |
| 02:03.03 | Dagmar | They were like "WTF you didn't tell us you could play trombone" and my reaction was pretty much "I woulnd't call that playing trombone" |
| 02:03.10 | theorbtwo | Learn to play an instrument because you want to learn to play an instrument, or possibly for the chicks. |
| 02:03.45 | Wobin | Dagmar, hehe elitist =) |
| 02:03.56 | Dagmar | Going "toot toot toot toot toot waaah" is just as denigrating to a trombonist as being as to play "Oom pah oom pah" on a sousaphone |
| 02:04.15 | DWSR | Heather: Also, you don't need line 5. |
| 02:04.26 | DWSR | Heather: You can just use GetContainerItemID(i, j) in the comparison on 6. |
| 02:04.30 | Heather | DWSR: what happens right now in my code is that if I move something in my bag to update it, I get a picture of a shard on my cursor but if I click on an empty slot, nothing happens, and nothing is deleted |
| 02:04.30 | Wobin | Dagmar, good luck in your solo trombonist career? |
| 02:04.51 | DWSR | Heather: Still looking at it. |
| 02:05.04 | DWSR | You using a bag addon? |
| 02:05.09 | Heather | nope |
| 02:05.14 | Heather | all addons are turned off except mine |
| 02:06.31 | DWSR | anyway |
| 02:07.22 | Dagmar | Wobin: You have to understand, the entire time I was in high school band and college, we never played anything but grade six pieces, all the time |
| 02:07.41 | Dagmar | Not as in "sixth grade" but as in "music doesn't get harder to play than this" |
| 02:08.20 | Dagmar | Might as well be asking someone used to playing tympani to sit in on triangle |
| 02:08.50 | DWSR | Heather: It looks like it should work, judging by what I've read in the documentation |
| 02:08.50 | Dagmar | Fishbone was the last good ska band. |
| 02:09.08 | Heather | Not that I'm awesome at art or anything, but I am used to realism and when I'm trying to draw a cartoon or a quick doodle it always looks like ass |
| 02:09.44 | Wobin | Heather, work it to your advantage |
| 02:09.46 | Heather | DWSR I know that the count thing works since I use it elsewhere and it gives me accurate shard counts there |
| 02:09.50 | Wobin | Draw lots of ass |
| 02:10.00 | Dagmar | Heather: Four letters for you. X. K. C. D. |
| 02:10.06 | Heather | some of my art: http://heatherannekiefer.deviantart.com/art/Beauty-s-Back-108472666 |
| 02:10.24 | DWSR | Heather: Nice. :) |
| 02:10.33 | Wobin | Heather, you totally cut off before it looks like ass =) |
| 02:10.36 | Heather | not perfect, but definitely not cartoony |
| 02:10.36 | Dagmar | I'll have to look at it later, when I'm home alone. |
| 02:10.40 | Dagmar | Hehe |
| 02:10.41 | Heather | I ran out of paper, Wobin |
| 02:10.44 | Dagmar | I blame OpenDNS |
| 02:10.55 | Heather | I have drawn that model a lot though, she's a friend of mine |
| 02:11.08 | theorbtwo | That's pretty good stuff. |
| 02:11.28 | Wobin | Heather, but that's a good eye for shadow |
| 02:11.31 | theorbtwo | ...and for what it's worth, there's a good many well-respected cartoonists that don't look cartoony. |
| 02:11.51 | Heather | yeah, I'm pretty good at shading, my line work sucks |
| 02:12.42 | theorbtwo | Heather: http://dreamless.keenspot.com/ |
| 02:12.46 | theorbtwo | Line work is overrated. |
| 02:12.58 | Heather | theorbtwo, yeah, but I want to develop a cartoonist style emulating one of my favorite artists, the artist from penny arcade |
| 02:13.34 | Dagmar | So start by importing everything they've posted into Adobe Illustrator. ;) |
| 02:13.44 | Dagmar | You would not be the first |
| 02:13.50 | theorbtwo | Emulation is also overrated, IMHO. Being yourself well is much better then being somebody else badly. |
| 02:14.28 | Dagmar | Actually, they just use the hell out of illustrator |
| 02:14.50 | Heather | I have some more art in my sketchbooks but I'd have to get my scanner out |
| 02:15.02 | Heather | I did a sketch of Morgan Webb that turned out quite well |
| 02:15.03 | Dagmar | ...although Mike is a badass in multiple mediusm |
| 02:15.25 | Dagmar | I felt cheated when he started doing oils |
| 02:15.45 | Dagmar | Like, how dare this be his first foray into real paint and to kick ass anyway |
| 02:15.45 | *** join/#wowuidev digmouse|work (~chatzilla@124.205.157.50) |
| 02:15.54 | DWSR | Dagmar: Hehe. |
| 02:16.03 | Heather | my linework of misc bodyparts, even heavily detailed bits, is quite well.... I suck at faces. Like REALLY suck |
| 02:16.11 | theorbtwo | Heh. I love the lobster. |
| 02:16.16 | Heather | thanks :D |
| 02:16.22 | Heather | I drew it for my aunt who loves lobsters |
| 02:16.32 | theorbtwo | Heather: Faces are hard. Humans are very good at seeing small variations in faces. |
| 02:17.04 | Dagmar | It's how we determine who is inadequate breeding stock. |
| 02:17.11 | Dagmar | part of it anyway |
| 02:17.15 | Heather | is quite well? Grammar is my strong point. |
| 02:17.54 | Dagmar | You could always ask quite and find out. |
| 02:19.04 | Heather | I was mocking my own sucky grammar |
| 02:19.12 | Heather | I said my line work is quite well except for faces |
| 02:19.28 | theorbtwo | Heather: We got it. |
| 02:19.31 | Heather | I'm thinking of doing some more artwork tonight |
| 02:19.43 | theorbtwo | feels quite unartistic now -- I don't draw, and I just barely play. |
| 02:20.03 | theorbtwo | I should start pushing myself again, maybe get a proper teacher. |
| 02:20.06 | Heather | I never feel artistic or inspired, I just decide to do something and do it |
| 02:20.56 | Heather | writes as well as doing art and is told her writing is quite good, but it's kinda NSFW and thus not likely suitable to post here. Not that they're horribly graphic, they're just not meant for children. |
| 02:21.11 | DWSR | Heather |
| 02:21.15 | DWSR | If this channel was safe for work |
| 02:21.27 | DWSR | I'm pretty sure 85% of people here would be banned. |
| 02:22.22 | Heather | well, if anyone wants a link to one of my stories, I can provide it. PM me if you want a link, keeping in mind it's NSFW |
| 02:24.10 | Corrodias | i like nsfw things |
| 02:24.14 | Corrodias | but stories take reading ._. |
| 02:24.40 | Heather | my stories are autobiographical in nature, wrote them as a kind of therapy, to kinda show my husband what being me is all about. He encouraged me to post them online, so I did |
| 02:24.41 | Corrodias | hell, i'm banned from safe-for-work channels just for existing |
| 02:24.44 | Wobin | "is quite... well... I suck at faces" |
| 02:24.55 | Wobin | fixd |
| 02:25.53 | theorbtwo | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:25.59 | Heather | lol |
| 02:26.06 | theorbtwo | Oh, hell. |
| 02:26.28 | theorbtwo | I haven't done that accidentally in a long time. |
| 02:28.25 | DWSR | Heather: Not that they're horribly graphic? |
| 02:28.29 | DWSR | wtf?! |
| 02:28.40 | Heather | have you seen the stuff on asstr? |
| 02:28.55 | Heather | mine is G rated compared to 90 percent of the archive |
| 02:29.31 | *** join/#wowuidev Schnaks (~Schnaks@p5486D280.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 02:31.22 | A-KO | Heather: some honest critique here, it seems like you're going for more of an artsy description of said situation more than you are trying to go for the bluntness of what's going on....but it lacks some very descriptive parts about sensations and feelings :P |
| 02:32.07 | A-KO | I think it dives in too fast :P but hey |
| 02:32.17 | *** join/#wowuidev kdtresh (~kdtresh@adsl-75-14-214-43.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net) |
| 02:32.24 | *** join/#wowuidev KarlKFI (~chatzilla@ip70-181-89-32.oc.oc.cox.net) |
| 02:32.42 | Heather | I didn't write them for the public to view them, they were private, but I was encouraged to publish them, so I did |
| 02:33.19 | A-KO | I guess what I'm trying to say is, people (most) know what sex feels like, but what I'd rather get from the reading is what it feels like to the writer/character/whichever :P And just didn't get that from it. |
| 02:33.25 | A-KO | but nonetheless, good stuff |
| 02:34.20 | Heather | I didn't write them to explain what sex felt like for me, but rather what's going on in my mind |
| 02:34.27 | A-KO | ahhh |
| 02:34.37 | Heather | has body dysmorphic disorder. |
| 02:35.12 | KarlKFI | looks around confused |
| 02:35.17 | A-KO | lol Kar |
| 02:35.17 | theorbtwo | Strange. I *did* feel like it was an interesting viewpoint, and not purely mechanical, unlike some, a fair bit, really, of erotica. |
| 02:35.18 | A-KO | l |
| 02:36.02 | Heather | theorbtwo, and that's the response I've gotten from most of my readers |
| 02:36.08 | Adys | never wake up to this sort of talk in this chan |
| 02:36.10 | Adys | ever |
| 02:36.32 | theorbtwo | Heh. Just go back to sleep. |
| 02:36.38 | kd3 | ah the joys of #wowuidev |
| 02:36.38 | Adys | i wish |
| 02:36.43 | KarlKFI | looks at the subject wondering if he's hallucinating before being drunk |
| 02:37.43 | theorbtwo | Music -> Art -> Writing. |
| 02:37.51 | Cide | s/-// |
| 02:37.52 | theorbtwo | doesn't remember how we started talking about music. |
| 02:37.56 | KarlKFI | wonders how more girls snuck in the channel |
| 02:38.13 | Adys | wonders how they still are in the chan |
| 02:38.33 | KarlKFI | Leopeppy's not here, maybe it's her |
| 02:38.42 | Adys | I'm going with that too |
| 02:38.52 | theorbtwo | shrugs. |
| 02:38.58 | KarlKFI | Cairenn.... what did you do!? |
| 02:39.15 | Shadowed | what did Cairenn do?! |
| 02:39.26 | theorbtwo | Am I the only one who finds it fairly unsurprising that there are a bunch of women in here, and at least one of them talks about sex on occasion? |
| 02:40.07 | KarlKFI | boggles |
| 02:40.12 | Heather | lol, am I the sex talker because I only recently mentioned that and indirectly |
| 02:40.18 | Shadowed | All women on the internet talk about sex 24/7 |
| 02:40.20 | KarlKFI | the guys don't even usually talk about sex in here... |
| 02:40.20 | Shadowed | it's a fact |
| 02:40.22 | A-KO | theorbtwo: it's only surprising given the rarity of women on IRC, the rarity of women that like to talk about sex with strangers, and the increased, unsatisfied libidos of men on IRC |
| 02:40.58 | Adys | Not to mention the fact Fisker and I just slept together |
| 02:41.06 | A-KO | that said, Heather seems pretty cool despite all of that. Programming ability > sexual innuendo :P |
| 02:41.17 | A-KO | Almost every woman can have sex, not every woman can program |
| 02:41.19 | Shadowed | Is Fisker the girlin the relationship |
| 02:41.20 | KarlKFI | i dont know that male libidos can actually BE satisfied |
| 02:41.33 | Heather | there are actually quite a few women online and on IRC, we just typically pick non-feminine names. For example, when I'm on other networks I tend to go by ArrPirate. |
| 02:41.33 | Adys | Shadowed: Fisker is the third wheel in the relationship |
| 02:41.33 | A-KO | so that's a +1 in any nerd book |
| 02:41.34 | Shadowed | A-KO: Almost every guy can have sex, and most of them can't program :P |
| 02:41.39 | Adys | Usually Im with kalroth but hes not here. |
| 02:41.40 | A-KO | haha Shadowed, true. |
| 02:41.59 | Heather | sexual inuendo?! I mentioned sex only through my stories and the stories only because we were talking about art and music |
| 02:42.19 | A-KO | Well, there are quite a few women on IRC--but you gotta weed out the ones that don't actually contribute and just kind of mingle around. |
| 02:42.25 | A-KO | 'cause that bothers me :P |
| 02:42.36 | Shadowed | I look at it as a Fisker to female ratio |
| 02:42.37 | KarlKFI | no, dont do that |
| 02:42.37 | theorbtwo | Yeah. There's been very little inuendo here lately, which may well be related to heather feeling comfortable bringing up her writing. |
| 02:42.41 | Shadowed | per one Fisker, you can have X females |
| 02:42.55 | KarlKFI | i'm sure we can fix that theorbtwo |
| 02:42.55 | Cairenn | and the SNR in here lately has been abysmal |
| 02:43.03 | Adys | busted Cairenn |
| 02:43.06 | Shadowed | indeed! |
| 02:43.07 | A-KO | that said, I know of at least one other female in here that knows C :P |
| 02:43.12 | theorbtwo | (Not to put words in your mouth, Heather -- feel free to tell me that I'm full of it.) |
| 02:43.28 | Adys | You're full of it |
| 02:43.32 | Heather | you're full of it. Clearly I brought up the stories because I wanted to talk about my crotch. |
| 02:43.33 | Dagmar | I once knew a woman who coded in C. She was 68. |
| 02:43.37 | KarlKFI | Cairenn: there's not much to talk about wow wise |
| 02:43.37 | Dagmar | It freaked me out. |
| 02:43.39 | Heather | btw, my crotch? Fantabulous. |
| 02:43.50 | Shadowed | But yes |
| 02:43.53 | Shadowed | there are girls on the internet |
| 02:43.55 | Shadowed | :O |
| 02:43.57 | theorbtwo | tries to avoid laughing out loud and waking up his girlfriend. |
| 02:43.59 | Dagmar | Lies. |
| 02:44.10 | A-KO | definite lies |
| 02:44.16 | Adys | Shadowed: no girls on the internet, no guys either |
| 02:44.16 | Wobin | Heather, have you vajazzled it? |
| 02:44.17 | A-KO | GIRL = Guy In Real Life |
| 02:44.21 | Dagmar | They're usually cops and you know it. |
| 02:44.21 | Heather | omg |
| 02:44.24 | Shadowed | All FBI agents |
| 02:44.24 | Adys | only FBI agents and math majors |
| 02:44.24 | Heather | I saw the video for that |
| 02:44.26 | Heather | WHY |
| 02:44.32 | Wobin | inorite? >< |
| 02:44.41 | Heather | seriously, why would you want little things glued to your crotch? |
| 02:44.48 | Wobin | There are some bodyparts a glue gun should never go towards |
| 02:44.59 | Heather | who are you going to show it off to? "LOOK! MY CROTCH! IT GLOWS!" |
| 02:45.00 | Cairenn | o.O |
| 02:45.06 | A-KO | Heather: it makes some people feel like special little butterflies |
| 02:45.08 | Adys | gets some ideas |
| 02:45.10 | Adys | Fisker: get here |
| 02:45.11 | Wobin | Cairenn, look up vajazzling |
| 02:45.15 | Dagmar | Someone's never, ever been to a strip club... |
| 02:45.16 | Xyphoid | i saw that article, looked like my bathmat |
| 02:45.27 | Heather | I've been to strip clubs |
| 02:45.43 | Heather | the female clubs are ok I guess. Bit boring. The male clubs... sooo sad. |
| 02:45.47 | Wobin | it's like the 80's and modern art threw up together |
| 02:46.07 | Dagmar | Heather: They opened the Arrow club here |
| 02:46.10 | Heather | either they wear speedos, and no man should ever wear a speedo, or they wear the sock thing that makes everything just flop about and that is not sexy |
| 02:46.19 | Wobin | Heather, I've always been impressed at the strength required for real pole dancing |
| 02:46.31 | Dagmar | Half of the city council was speechless. The other half we wish had just kept their fool mouths shut. |
| 02:46.53 | Adys | Wobin: Should I be intrigued as to how you know that? |
| 02:47.04 | Shadowed | Adys: I would imagine it's logic :p |
| 02:47.10 | Wobin | Adys, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWxcVyBRecE&feature=related |
| 02:47.13 | Adys | Wobin doesn't have any logic |
| 02:47.16 | Dagmar | One of them actually had the lack of sense to tell the news people that it was "different" when a man "shows himself" and that it "wasn't right" |
| 02:47.17 | Shadowed | Being able to swing yourself on a pole has to be pretty hard |
| 02:47.17 | Adys | so it has to be experience. |
| 02:47.22 | Wobin | watch that tango |
| 02:47.22 | Shadowed | aha Dagmar |
| 02:47.25 | Wobin | and tell me you're not impressed |
| 02:47.33 | Adys | Wobin: hey, I've seen this! |
| 02:47.42 | Adys | it's a popular programme in france |
| 02:48.00 | Heather | for a while here we had a full nude strip club. They skirted the law by giving patrons sketch pads and pencils and calling the strippers models |
| 02:48.04 | Dagmar | Me, I think they were being fairly stupid. They'd no idea how girls behave after they've been in a club with male strippers |
| 02:48.18 | Arrowmaster | Wobin: is that something like dancing with the stars? |
| 02:48.24 | Wobin | I hear it's ... crazy |
| 02:48.30 | Wobin | Arrowmaster, er, no |
| 02:48.34 | Heather | Dagmar, how do girls behave after they've been in a club with male strippers? |
| 02:48.38 | Wobin | Arrowmaster, if they did that on DWTS, I'd watch it more |
| 02:48.39 | theorbtwo | Heather: That's a great idea. |
| 02:48.40 | Adys | Wobin: ya it's really nice |
| 02:48.43 | Heather | because, personally, it doesn't do much for me |
| 02:48.45 | Dagmar | Heather: If things went well, like rabid beasts. :) |
| 02:48.54 | Wobin | it's totally sfw, btw |
| 02:48.55 | Wobin | that link |
| 02:49.06 | Wobin | they just happen to be dancing the tango |
| 02:49.08 | Wobin | on a pole |
| 02:49.10 | Heather | I find male strip clubs to be kinda sad |
| 02:49.12 | Shadowed | haha Heather |
| 02:49.14 | Shadowed | That's clever |
| 02:49.33 | Adys | Wobin: fyi; http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=le+plus+grand+cabaret+du+monde&aq=0 |
| 02:49.46 | Adys | there are some interesting numbers |
| 02:50.01 | Heather | is listening to 2 Girls 1 Cup Song |
| 02:50.02 | Adys | some are in french though but thats only the talked ones |
| 02:50.07 | Heather | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxp3zqIqO68 |
| 02:50.44 | Dagmar | Heather: The internets have probably desensitized you to it. ;) |
| 02:50.45 | Heather | it has some cusswords in it |
| 02:51.00 | Dagmar | Next time take a cardboard cutout of a browser window with you. ;) |
| 02:51.04 | Heather | no, I just find men in speedos or men with floppy bits to be unattractive |
| 02:51.39 | theorbtwo | You prefer men's bits to be hard at all times? |
| 02:51.48 | KarlKFI | be hard to strip in front of a crowd and stay arroused |
| 02:52.05 | KarlKFI | unless maybe the crowd is naked |
| 02:52.17 | KarlKFI | and then we call that somehting else |
| 02:52.21 | Heather | no, I just don't think imitating a propeller with your junk is sexy |
| 02:52.22 | Dagmar | Fun! |
| 02:52.30 | Cairenn | you go to pathetic strip clubs then |
| 02:52.35 | theorbtwo | That sounds painful. |
| 02:52.42 | Shadowed | loves IRC |
| 02:52.48 | Dagmar | I'd describe it as "challenging" |
| 02:52.52 | KarlKFI | lol |
| 02:53.21 | Cairenn | tell that boy to put a ring on it, for the duration of his act - problem solved |
| 02:53.22 | Dagmar | You know those children's toys with the two hard plastic balls on cables where the kid shakes them up and down and smashes them into each other? Yeah, that's the risk you'r etaking when you pull that stunt. |
| 02:53.56 | theorbtwo | gets the beyonce song stuck in his head. |
| 02:54.13 | KarlKFI | sings the small world song to help you out |
| 02:54.18 | *** join/#wowuidev Kandoko (~Kandoko@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Developer/Kandoko) |
| 02:55.06 | Dagmar | theorbtwo: Amazon sells icepicks that can help |
| 02:55.10 | Wobin | also gets the beyonce song in his head |
| 02:55.12 | theorbtwo | Heather: You might be interested in watching http://megatokyo.com/fredarting -- though he's currently afk. |
| 02:55.13 | Wobin | Thanks Cairenn =P |
| 02:55.38 | Cairenn | any time, always glad to help |
| 02:55.40 | Cairenn | *weg* |
| 02:56.17 | Wobin | ah joe lajoie |
| 02:56.27 | Wobin | er jon |
| 02:56.50 | Wobin | I like his http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PsnxDQvQpw&feature=channel |
| 02:58.12 | Cairenn | I like that |
| 02:58.24 | Dagmar | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KB54p8_wh8 <-- probably more typical "white people rap" |
| 02:58.50 | Torhal | ~kill pompy |
| 02:58.51 | purl | ACTION shoots a charged pseudophoton gun at pompy |
| 02:58.53 | Dagmar | I once worked with a guy who was seriously into gangster rap. He had no idea what to make of Mc. 900 ft Jesus |
| 02:59.02 | Torhal | I didn't need to read about male strippers and propellers. |
| 02:59.08 | Dagmar | Hahah |
| 02:59.42 | Wobin | meatspin =P |
| 03:00.30 | Dagmar | "They rap about shooting people because they don't have the stomach for the _really_ serious crimes like arson and serial killing." |
| 03:04.48 | Heather | my problem with my wacom tablet is that I can't do the shading the way I like to with pencils and paper |
| 03:05.26 | theorbtwo | nods. |
| 03:05.56 | theorbtwo | That makes a lot of sense. |
| 03:06.00 | Cidwel | bye ppl! |
| 03:06.08 | theorbtwo | OTOH, there's probably a tool you can use that attempts to emulate it. |
| 03:06.25 | theorbtwo | ...to emulate the effect of smudging pencil on paper, that is. |
| 03:06.35 | Heather | the way I shade is I put on some graphite, usually from a 6B or a 2B and I use my blending stumps to smooth it |
| 03:06.37 | Wobin | I don't know if they'll ever be able to truly emulate actual materials |
| 03:07.09 | Dagmar | Well, they can emulate the sound of a record being backspun, and ears are trickier than eyes. There's hope. |
| 03:07.39 | theorbtwo | Dagmar: OTOH, a record is simpiler then a sheet of paper. |
| 03:08.18 | Dagmar | theorbtwo: The dynamics of a needle demand a considerably more than just playing the clip fast |
| 03:08.20 | theorbtwo | I have to think that learning new techniques is worth it for undo and layers. |
| 03:08.35 | Dagmar | I <3 layers so much |
| 03:08.39 | theorbtwo | Dagmar: Hm. I'll take your word for it. |
| 03:08.52 | theorbtwo | isn't really an artist -- I just look at a lot of comics. |
| 03:09.21 | Arrowmaster | i need to catch up on megatokyo |
| 03:09.49 | theorbtwo | I had it on three-a-day archivebinge... and then just read almost the whole thing in two days. |
| 03:14.21 | Heather | I've smoked pot before, it was ok |
| 03:14.25 | Heather | .... wrong window |
| 03:15.27 | *** join/#wowuidev Sixen1 (~Sixen@173-25-23-10.client.mchsi.com) |
| 03:16.12 | kdtresh | nice save |
| 03:19.06 | theorbtwo | ponders whoising Heather to try to find a more consistantly interesting channel. |
| 03:19.28 | Heather | i'm boring |
| 03:19.33 | Heather | just programming channels |
| 03:19.48 | Heather | a c++ channel a game dev channel, two QT cahnnels, and my DS dev channel |
| 03:20.11 | theorbtwo | Fair enough. |
| 03:21.06 | *** join/#wowuidev Dewin1 (~dewin@c-71-59-222-35.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 03:21.27 | Heather | can write an efficient A* pathfinding algorithm for the DS in C++ but writing an addon for WoW stmps her. |
| 03:21.47 | Dagmar | You'll get lua soon enough |
| 03:21.48 | theorbtwo | Yeah, they don't seem like they'd have much in common. |
| 03:21.55 | Dagmar | I still suck at it, but I'm barely trying |
| 03:22.03 | theorbtwo | ...unless, of course, your addon is trying to do A*. |
| 03:22.26 | theorbtwo | It's not just a matter of LUA, it's a pretty wacky API sometimes. |
| 03:22.34 | Heather | actually, it has a lot in common since if you can do an efficient A* you have a pretty firm grasp of a language |
| 03:22.49 | Shirik | I will kill you theorbtwo |
| 03:22.59 | Dagmar | The door is a table. |
| 03:24.16 | kdtresh | doesn't know what an A* is. |
| 03:24.29 | Wobin | it's an A.. with a star |
| 03:24.37 | theorbtwo | kdtresh: It's a routing algorithm. |
| 03:24.46 | Heather | A* is a pathfinding algorithm. It's pronounced a-star |
| 03:25.00 | Heather | it finds the shortest path between two points in a very efficient manner |
| 03:25.14 | theorbtwo | Well, a fairly efficent manner, anyway. |
| 03:25.14 | Heather | there are modifications to be made but you always trade either memory cost or CPU cost |
| 03:25.18 | Dagmar | You and Zorba will get along fine |
| 03:25.40 | Heather | theorbtwo, very efficient for the accuracy you can get with a good heuristic cost finder |
| 03:26.18 | theorbtwo | Getting back to WoW a bit, neither questhelper nor the gathering pather thing I use that I can't remember the name of use it -- they use an ant-based algo instead. |
| 03:26.41 | Wobin | Routes? |
| 03:26.55 | theorbtwo | Heather: Yeah, but for large terrain data, you normally care less about accuracy, and more about costs. |
| 03:27.00 | theorbtwo | Wobin: Yeah, that's the one. |
| 03:27.21 | theorbtwo | hasn't actually played WoW in ages; I find talking about it much more intersting then playing it. |
| 03:29.54 | Heather | theorbtwo, use multi-tiered A*, it works great over large terrain areas |
| 03:30.13 | Heather | look at games like Starcraft and Age of Empires |
| 03:30.45 | Heather | and also... ant-based? |
| 03:34.45 | Arrowmaster | traveling salesmen problem (TSP) ant colony optimization (ACO) algorithm |
| 03:35.05 | theorbtwo | http://mute-net.sourceforge.net/howAnts.shtml |
| 03:35.30 | theorbtwo | Hm. Yes, I suppose the issue is that they aren't really solving the same problem. |
| 03:35.43 | theorbtwo | A* just tries to get you from hither to yon. |
| 03:36.11 | theorbtwo | QH and Routes are trying to get you from here to all of these other places. |
| 03:36.38 | theorbtwo | (In QH's case, possibly with complex rules about interdependencies, and how you define best.) |
| 03:36.47 | theorbtwo | ...though it doesn't actually do the second one. |
| 03:36.52 | theorbtwo | Aw, she left. |
| 03:37.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Heather_ (~pirate@174-27-32-115.bois.qwest.net) |
| 03:37.31 | Heather_ | ant-based seems WAY less efficient than A* |
| 03:38.26 | theorbtwo | Heather_: Yeah. Don't know if you saw what I just said, but I realized I was talking bollocks. It's not really solving the same problem. |
| 03:39.55 | Heather_ | A* would be very quick for finding a path to the nearest node, and from that node to the next nearest node, etc. for gathering routes |
| 03:40.31 | Heather_ | and if you had detailed information about a WoW map, know where all walls are and such, you can plot very accurate paths to get you as quickly as possible from node to node |
| 03:40.36 | Arrowmaster | Heather_: the problem Routes is solving is that it has a set of multiple points on a map and it creates a path from a starting point back to that point while going through all the other points |
| 03:40.45 | Heather_ | however, with having to use doubles nonstop, it'll be expensive RAM-wise |
| 03:41.06 | Heather_ | Arrowmaster, that's easy to do |
| 03:41.13 | theorbtwo | Heather_: You could do it in terms of fixed-point easily. |
| 03:41.36 | Heather_ | I do fixed point in my implementation |
| 03:41.38 | theorbtwo | Heather_: Always going to the nearest as-yet-undone node will often not create the best overall path, though. |
| 03:42.35 | Heather_ | theorbtwo, no, but you can easily make a list of the nearest, say, 100 nodes, then check each possible path and pick the shortest possible |
| 03:42.49 | Heather_ | even doing 1,000 routes should only take a second or two |
| 03:43.08 | Arrowmaster | http://www.wowace.com/addons/routes/ |
| 03:43.14 | Arrowmaster | think you can do it better? |
| 03:43.32 | Arrowmaster | it takes a while to create a route with 200+ points |
| 03:43.38 | Heather_ | in Lua for WoW? likely not |
| 03:43.46 | theorbtwo | Even better, QH. |
| 03:43.49 | Heather_ | in C++? yeah |
| 03:43.53 | Heather_ | I use Carbonite |
| 03:43.56 | Arrowmaster | QH is different |
| 03:43.57 | cbreak | creating any route? easy. |
| 03:44.05 | cbreak | creating a good one? less easy. |
| 03:44.06 | theorbtwo | QH could *really* benifit from a better route-finder. |
| 03:44.06 | Cide | I don't see the problem |
| 03:44.18 | Cide | 1) generate all possible routes, this is done in constant time |
| 03:44.20 | Heather_ | I just described how you could easily find the best possible way to hit the nearest 100 nodes |
| 03:44.23 | Cide | 2) ??? |
| 03:44.24 | Cide | 3) profit |
| 03:44.43 | Heather_ | Cide, it is done once, at the picking of a path |
| 03:45.07 | theorbtwo | Arrowmaster: QH uses the same basic algo as core route finding, all the questy stuff is on the outside of that. |
| 03:45.24 | Heather_ | and it's not an outrageous amount, it's going to be around 10,000 total paths calculated, which should only take a few seconds on a modern computer, less time if you're willing to have more of a memory hit since some paths can be saved |
| 03:45.35 | theorbtwo | Heather_: The method you described evalues O(N!) routes.. |
| 03:45.52 | Arrowmaster | too bad xinhuan isnt here |
| 03:45.56 | Heather_ | I'm leaving out optimizations |
| 03:46.09 | Heather_ | many paths would be the same except for one or two differences |
| 03:46.14 | theorbtwo | Again, in Lua, and not a great implementation of it, from what I hear. |
| 03:46.17 | Heather_ | those wouldn't have to be fully calculated |
| 03:46.20 | cbreak | just pick always the nearest neighbor node. complexity O(n), and you will get a path that's better than the worst case in many cases |
| 03:46.41 | theorbtwo | Heather_: Talk to ZorbaTHut sometime. |
| 03:47.33 | Arrowmaster | zorba's isnt as good as xinhuan's, but zorbas recalcs the path very often while you are moving since your current position is always the start point |
| 03:48.21 | Heather_ | anyway... if you pick a relatively small area, say 1,000 yards by 1,000 yards and try to path to all mining sites within that area, it shouldn't take too much |
| 03:48.38 | Heather_ | but again it grows ridiculously more expensive the larger the search area gets |
| 03:48.45 | theorbtwo | Arrowmaster: Worse, IMHO, zorba's could really do with a better weighting then time to complete all current quests. |
| 03:49.02 | theorbtwo | ...and he doesn't know how to do that, last I heard. |
| 03:49.12 | Heather_ | and again most of the pathing I've seen in WoW addons ignores most of the obstacles in the map, to the point of telling you to climb a mountain |
| 03:49.28 | Shadowed | I think you're underestimating how little it takes to actually lag the game when doing complex code :p |
| 03:49.42 | Arrowmaster | yeah thats the other thing |
| 03:50.03 | Shadowed | WoW is single threaded, if you take even 0.20 seconds to do something, the user will notice |
| 03:50.20 | Heather_ | well, yes, but in this particular case lag may be acceptable |
| 03:50.25 | Shadowed | You have to either be very fast, distribute it into smaller chunks and do it over time, or do it in one large spike |
| 03:50.26 | Arrowmaster | which isnt acceptable for QH |
| 03:50.38 | Shadowed | I'm pretty sure QH has a lot of inefficiencies in its calculation but |
| 03:50.39 | Heather_ | you're telling it to find a path to mining sites, something you shouldn't be doing in combat |
| 03:50.57 | Shadowed | Heather_: Telling people "Wait 1 minute while I calculate your path" isn't really a good solution |
| 03:50.58 | Arrowmaster | but for Routes its acceptable to lag the game since it only does it when you create the route |
| 03:51.05 | Shadowed | Routes gets away with it cause of ^ |
| 03:51.27 | Heather_ | Shadowed, it can't be avoided in the current environment with the kind of t ask I am imagining with the kind of accuracy I am imagining |
| 03:51.33 | theorbtwo | For that matter, if you pause a full minute, you'll get logged out, because you failed to respond to a ping packet. |
| 03:51.37 | Arrowmaster | although routes also has an even slower background mode because the foreground mode could take so long that it gets you disconnected |
| 03:51.45 | Heather_ | and personally, wasting 20 seconds up front in order to save 20 minutes later? worth it to me |
| 03:51.51 | Shadowed | Arrowmaster: The slower background mode just means "Don't lag you quite as much" if I recall |
| 03:51.58 | Shadowed | not "Stop all lag" |
| 03:52.02 | Arrowmaster | right |
| 03:52.22 | Shadowed | Heather_: My understanding is, you are trying to make a more complex and in-depth version of Routes, correcT? |
| 03:52.40 | Heather_ | I'm not trying to make anything |
| 03:52.42 | Arrowmaster | something akin to 'do work for 1 second then let the game have control again, now do work for 1 second and repeat' |
| 03:52.45 | Shadowed | Well, arguing |
| 03:53.14 | Heather_ | I'm describing how A* could be used to make a good pathing for making the best possible route to harvest the nearest, say, 100 gathering locations |
| 03:53.25 | Shadowed | In real time, or pre calculated? |
| 03:53.40 | Heather_ | calculated at the time the path is generated, no need to do it in real time |
| 03:54.02 | Shadowed | You could always talk to Xinhuan, but I would assume he didn't use A* for a good reason |
| 03:54.20 | Heather_ | which means, the moment I go, 'ok, find me the nearest 100 nodes and find me the best path to hit them all' I'm ok with a little lag for 20 seconds or so while it finds a good path |
| 03:54.35 | Heather_ | A* would be expensive with doubles |
| 03:55.00 | Heather_ | because A* uses a map array and a map array of any size would get expensive as hell very quickly |
| 03:55.05 | Shadowed | Routes is already somewhat slow for path calculation thought when you start building more complex or better optimized routes |
| 03:55.11 | Shadowed | It's definitely not 20 seconds |
| 03:55.21 | Shadowed | (this might have been optimized, I haven't used Routes since TBC) |
| 03:55.40 | Wobin | It's pretty fast |
| 03:55.57 | Shadowed | Wobin: Doing very basic paths was fast, when you started merging nodes based on distance it got slow |
| 03:56.02 | Heather_ | 30mb of RAM just for a 1,000x1,000 yard map with a node every yard at the most basic possible level |
| 03:56.18 | Wobin | Shadowed, not really, I found it pretty good with all the bells and whistles |
| 03:56.31 | Shadowed | Must have gotten better |
| 03:56.52 | Shadowed | Stopped having to gather like, midway into TBC |
| 03:56.52 | theorbtwo | Or it stayed the same, and your computer got better. |
| 03:56.58 | theorbtwo | Yey for Moore's law. |
| 03:57.00 | Heather_ | my A* is capable of finding a single path on a 100x100 map in a fraction of a second on a 66mhz cpu |
| 03:57.08 | Wobin | haven't updated my computer in a while |
| 03:57.41 | *** join/#wowuidev Schnaks (~Schnaks@p5486ABE8.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 03:58.07 | *** part/#wowuidev Seerah (~Ryan@c-76-107-191-65.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) |
| 03:59.47 | Heather_ | lua> print(((((64 * 6 * 1000 * 1000) / 8) / 1024) / 1024).."mb") |
| 03:59.53 | lua_bot | Heather_: 45.7763671875mb |
| 04:00.21 | Heather_ | 45.7mb of memory used doing my A* implementation on a 1,000x1,000 node map in Lua |
| 04:01.21 | Arrowmaster | whats the 6? |
| 04:01.32 | Heather_ | how many variables I think I'd need |
| 04:02.15 | Arrowmaster | all numbers? |
| 04:02.22 | Heather_ | yes |
| 04:02.34 | Arrowmaster | not storing them in a table or anything? |
| 04:02.38 | theorbtwo | Heather_: OTOH, you are assuming no padding or other overhead outside of your a*. |
| 04:02.47 | Heather_ | exactly |
| 04:02.54 | Heather_ | 45.7mb at the best possible |
| 04:03.07 | Shadowed | Tables are 46 bytes per fyi |
| 04:03.18 | Heather_ | as I said, A* get super expensive in Lua |
| 04:03.20 | Shadowed | Don't remember what the per byte cost of indexes were |
| 04:03.29 | theorbtwo | Unless you cheat, that's not going to be the case, and you'll spend lots of CPU on substr and junk cheating. |
| 04:03.42 | Heather_ | my A* implementation, for 100x100 node maps on the Nintendo DS costs only 400kb |
| 04:04.12 | Shadowed | Pretty sure Nintendo DS is a bit simpler than WoW in terms of routing you need :p |
| 04:04.23 | Heather_ | well, actually, 128x128 maps since I use signed 8 bit integers |
| 04:04.28 | Shadowed | I assume it also has some sort of threading too |
| 04:04.36 | Heather_ | .... you assume wrong |
| 04:04.55 | Shadowed | Then I'll still go with "Nintendo DS is a bit simpler than WoW in terms of routing you need" |
| 04:05.15 | Heather_ | it's difficult to do a* on the DS because the DS is slow as hell and division is extremely expensive on it |
| 04:05.23 | Heather_ | you are wrong |
| 04:05.25 | Heather_ | WAY wrong |
| 04:05.32 | Heather_ | what the heck gives you that idea anyway? |
| 04:05.43 | Wobin | "Cause it's smaller" |
| 04:05.49 | Heather_ | lol |
| 04:05.50 | Wobin | ^^ |
| 04:05.51 | cbreak | tetris doesn't need routing |
| 04:06.20 | Heather_ | actually, tetris does need some basic routing, if you count colision detection as routing |
| 04:06.36 | Shadowed | Because I've never written anything for the Nintendo DS and thus have no experience with it |
| 04:06.36 | cbreak | I'd count it as collision detection |
| 04:06.40 | Heather_ | I've written a tetris game |
| 04:06.50 | Shadowed | Hence why I didn't say "It does" |
| 04:07.29 | theorbtwo | G'night, folks. |
| 04:07.43 | theorbtwo | Lovely chatting with you all, and you especially, Heather_ |
| 04:08.02 | Heather_ | Shadowed: the DS has nothing done for you. Nothing. There's no graphics library. No easy way to do anything. You want a drop down menu? A button? You've got to write all that code yourself, your own GUI handler. You want pathfinding? You have to do all these hackish things like abuse the char variable to store integers so you can save ram, you have to use bitshifting instead of division, etc. |
| 04:08.06 | Arrowmaster | A* is a graph search algorithm though Routes uses an ant colony optimization algorithm, they solve different problems |
| 04:10.44 | Heather_ | I think that I could write a reasonably fast implementation of A* for WoW if I knew enough information about the world in WoW, as in where all impassible objects are |
| 04:11.12 | Shadowed | heh |
| 04:11.57 | Heather_ | and if you're willing to have predesignated starting locations, all paths could be precalculated and thus near instant from the user's point of view |
| 04:12.49 | Heather_ | What I want is a GPS-style tracker that gives you nice paths based on at least the biggest unwalkable areas, like mountains, castle walls, etc. |
| 04:13.10 | cbreak | we have flying mounts |
| 04:13.16 | Heather_ | I don't |
| 04:13.22 | Shadowed | What cbreak said, and good luck getting that sort of data |
| 04:13.36 | cbreak | it's probably inside the mpq |
| 04:13.36 | Heather_ | I've mapped Discworld MUD |
| 04:13.39 | Shadowed | You could hardcode a lot of it, but that requires actually doing out and getting all of the coords |
| 04:13.44 | Shadowed | Adys |
| 04:13.44 | Xyphoid | you could try and gather it i suppose |
| 04:13.48 | cbreak | you'd have to parse it and hardcode it into the addon |
| 04:13.49 | Xyphoid | but man |
| 04:13.58 | Shadowed | And it only really applies to <80s |
| 04:14.02 | Heather_ | Discworld MUD, all couple million rooms, have been mapped |
| 04:14.02 | Xyphoid | who wants to walk around every rock in the gameworld |
| 04:14.19 | Shadowed | 2D isn't really the same as 3D |
| 04:14.20 | cbreak | Shadowed: level 60 people can already get flying mounts |
| 04:14.21 | Heather_ | I find cartography to be fun |
| 04:14.28 | Shadowed | cbreak: oh right |
| 04:14.34 | Heather_ | Shadowed, for the most part, WoW is 2D |
| 04:14.38 | Adys | Shadowed: ? |
| 04:14.46 | Shadowed | Adys: Can you get the location of mountains and such in the MPQs |
| 04:14.55 | Adys | mountains? you mean like terrain files? |
| 04:14.56 | Heather_ | yes there are hills and such, but most of the game world is flat, you don't have caves everywhere directly below you |
| 04:15.03 | Shadowed | yea |
| 04:15.07 | Adys | caves are WMOs |
| 04:15.12 | Adys | mountains and such are terrain |
| 04:15.35 | Adys | they're all inside lichking.mpq, expansion.mpq and common.mpq, respectively |
| 04:16.15 | Shadowed | You may go back to your dungeon Adys |
| 04:16.25 | Adys | muh :( |
| 04:17.48 | Shadowed | :D |
| 04:19.08 | Heather_ | anyone here play on private servers? |
| 04:19.33 | Shadowed | Private servers are against the ToS, this isn't the channel to discuss them in. |
| 04:19.34 | Arrowmaster | no, and discussion of them isnt allowed here |
| 04:19.51 | Heather_ | ah, I was just wondering what the deal was with them |
| 04:19.52 | Corrodias | you mean the EULA |
| 04:19.56 | Shadowed | is it? |
| 04:20.00 | Shadowed | Whatever legal document it is |
| 04:20.08 | Shadowed | Actually not even legal document, handy wavy legal stuff |
| 04:20.19 | Corrodias | it can't be the ToS because they're not a blizzard service, so i think that document is irrelevant |
| 04:20.25 | Heather_ | the EULA, the only contract you sign by not signing it |
| 04:20.39 | cbreak | eulas aren't contracts |
| 04:20.50 | Heather_ | no, but they try to make it behave like one |
| 04:21.03 | Heather_ | like you've agreed to it even if you haven't |
| 04:21.16 | cbreak | a contract requires the expression of a will of two parties |
| 04:22.56 | Wobin | Heather_, you've coded on DW MUD? |
| 04:23.10 | Heather | no |
| 04:23.13 | Dagmar | Suprisingly, ther'es not caves everywhere below you IRL either |
| 04:23.16 | Wobin | PS, Include the library and it's infinity =P |
| 04:23.23 | Heather | only creators can code on DW mud and it's difficult to become a creator there |
| 04:23.29 | cbreak | Dagmar: there is in cities |
| 04:23.29 | Wobin | hehe |
| 04:23.35 | Dagmar | cbreak: Nope |
| 04:23.37 | Wobin | yes, I was a creator on there for a while |
| 04:23.40 | cbreak | at least in cities that have electricity and plumbing |
| 04:23.53 | Dagmar | I live in a city. I actually know where the tunnels are, but there's damn few caves. |
| 04:23.58 | Shadowed | Dagmar: I thought that's where the molemen live |
| 04:24.04 | Heather | when did you staff there, Wobin? |
| 04:24.13 | Dagmar | What sucks is they closed up the last place I knew of to get _into_ said tunnels about ten years ago |
| 04:24.14 | Heather | I've been playing that place pretty much my entire life |
| 04:24.28 | Wobin | a few years ago |
| 04:24.41 | Dagmar | Minor breaking and entering to go in through a gym, but now there's bricks |
| 04:24.41 | Wobin | back when Terano was still around |
| 04:24.58 | Wobin | and Liason was still a nice domain =( |
| 04:25.09 | Heather | say it opened in 1992 and I've been playing it since then, basically |
| 04:25.16 | Heather | I started playing when I was 12 |
| 04:25.26 | Dagmar | Hmm... I was pounding HexOnyx then |
| 04:25.33 | Wobin | hm, My period there was around 97-2003 I think |
| 04:25.48 | Wobin | I wonder if my Sonkies are still in there |
| 04:25.55 | Wobin | and the eyepatch... |
| 04:25.57 | Heather | I don't hunger for power and my love of programming is only a year old |
| 04:26.01 | Dagmar | ...in between going on completely off-the-record missions to go enforce the "no advertising" rule |
| 04:26.09 | Heather | the sonkies are, last I checked |
| 04:26.26 | Wobin | The eyepatch was a bit... obscure |
| 04:26.29 | Heather | but they've been changing a lot and some things gt bugs so they remove them |
| 04:26.42 | Wobin | it set your maxcol/2 |
| 04:26.53 | Heather | oh, I managed to write mushcode on Shangrila that crashed the entire server every time I ran it |
| 04:27.06 | Wobin | You should go join Drakkos' new MUD and code there |
| 04:27.58 | Dagmar | I just crashed servers. :) |
| 04:27.59 | Heather | I nested edit()s inside edit()s inside loops inside loops and it exposed an error in the server code |
| 04:28.08 | Wobin | "whoops" |
| 04:28.18 | Dagmar | Sometimes I'd leave behind a note saying "We said 'no advertising' and we meant it" |
| 04:28.25 | Heather | it actually destabilized the stack so it wasn't instant |
| 04:28.33 | Dagmar | Patches didn't move to other sites as quickly then as they do now. :) |
| 04:29.05 | Heather | so the first time it happened, I ran my code as a test and about 30 seconds later it crashed... so I came back on 5 minutes later and worked on my code... ran it again and I jokingly went, "Hey... lol, I hope that's not me doing that" |
| 04:29.16 | Dagmar | hahah |
| 04:29.23 | Dagmar | It's _always_ you when you say something like that |
| 04:29.32 | Dagmar | It's like a cosmic hacker rule |
| 04:29.40 | Heather | it wasn't until like two days later that I realized the mux only crashed if I ran my code |
| 04:29.51 | Heather | and then I had th fun job of going 'oops....' to the staff |
| 04:30.07 | Wobin | Heather, hehe, I remember there was a "Creator Bomb" on DW... Taffyd wrote it. |
| 04:30.16 | Heather | I crashed a MU* with an average online population of 600 people |
| 04:30.18 | Wobin | it's basically an inventory item you create into someone's inventory |
| 04:30.24 | Wobin | that crashes them as soon as they login |
| 04:30.27 | Xyphoid | in my mud experience, the standard process is to then push your buggy code live and use your new crash powers to dupe things |
| 04:30.47 | Wobin | oh god =P the dupe attempts |
| 04:30.48 | Dagmar | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:30.57 | Wobin | There was one creator that duped jailkeys |
| 04:31.00 | Dagmar | Or take advantage of that the server hadn't quite got the balance of disease right |
| 04:31.17 | Wobin | he got caught cause he was duping them for his gf |
| 04:31.22 | Wobin | >< |
| 04:31.31 | Heather | well, on a mush there's less desire to dupe things since anyone can create any object at any time |
| 04:31.37 | Wobin | of all the things to dupe... |
| 04:32.54 | Heather | dances the disco duck!!!! |
| 04:33.03 | Heather | 54 users of my multidescer!!!! |
| 04:33.13 | Heather | 54 people are using the software I wrote!!!! |
| 04:33.16 | Heather | soooo cool :D |
| 04:33.20 | Wobin | \o/ |
| 04:34.56 | *** join/#wowuidev ckknight (~ckknight@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/CurseStaff/CurseForge/ckknight) |
| 04:34.56 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o ckknight] by ChanServ |
| 04:38.32 | *** join/#wowuidev Adys (~Adys@unaffiliated/adys) |
| 04:38.40 | Adys | OMG thank god. |
| 04:38.43 | Adys | kde, sweet sweet kde, I missed you |
| 04:39.28 | Adys | http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1624 |
| 04:39.38 | Dagmar | looks alarmed |
| 04:44.44 | Shirik | wtf |
| 04:44.46 | Shirik | adys |
| 04:45.08 | Adys | Shirik? |
| 04:45.15 | Shirik | that comic |
| 04:45.30 | Corrodias | it's kind of strange. so they built an android with the ability to blush. |
| 04:45.54 | Shirik | why not |
| 04:46.01 | Shirik | it increases the cuteness factor |
| 04:50.17 | Shirik | rofl @ ATHF |
| 04:50.25 | Shirik | "The hard drive spun so fast it sent the computer back in time" |
| 04:51.55 | Adys | wth |
| 04:51.59 | Adys | my altgr key is down |
| 04:54.59 | Adys | the hell... its recognized as standard alt key |
| 04:55.11 | ZorbaTHut | theorbtwo, I had some ideas on a better weighting system, actually, I just never got around to doing it |
| 04:55.23 | ZorbaTHut | I'm sort of sad to stop working on QH because I think a lot of stuff could be far better, but, well, time |
| 04:55.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Adys (~Adys@unaffiliated/adys) |
| 04:56.28 | Shirik | Adys: You know why? |
| 04:56.31 | Shirik | BECAUSE ALTGR IS STUPID |
| 04:56.39 | Shirik | It's used by people with inferior languages |
| 04:56.48 | Adys | ... |
| 04:56.54 | Adys | I'm using english you fuckwad |
| 04:57.02 | Shirik | but not american english |
| 04:57.10 | Adys | yes, american english |
| 04:57.13 | Shirik | nope |
| 04:57.26 | Adys | my altgr modifier is used for quote, apostrophe and so on |
| 04:58.40 | Shirik | because you have an inferior language |
| 04:58.46 | Shirik | which uses the crazy << and >> symbols |
| 04:58.49 | ZorbaTHut | also HEY SHADOWED I just went on a date with a friend of yours. small world |
| 04:58.55 | Shadowed | hrm? |
| 04:58.56 | Shadowed | who |
| 04:59.00 | Shirik | Shadowed: I think ZorbaTHut just said he took your girlfriend |
| 04:59.03 | ZorbaTHut | Noressa |
| 04:59.08 | Shadowed | oh? |
| 04:59.34 | Shadowed | hah |
| 04:59.45 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, I like her. the conversation kind of accidentally moved onto WoW eventually :) |
| 04:59.56 | Wobin | how does that come up in conversation? "Yeah, I know this bloke named Shadowed..." |
| 05:00.16 | NightHawkTheSane | you know, you'd be surprised. |
| 05:00.21 | ZorbaTHut | wobin, conversation goes to WoW -> eventually UI mods come up -> I mention QH -> "oh yeah I know some guys in the UI mod dev community" |
| 05:00.39 | Wobin | starts namedropping NightHawkTheSane into random conversation |
| 05:00.48 | ZorbaTHut | it's kind of surprisingly inevitable if those connections exist, I think |
| 05:00.52 | Dagmar | Is that before you after you cop one? |
| 05:01.04 | DWSR | ZorbaTHut :D |
| 05:01.11 | Wobin | granted, this community is relatively close knit |
| 05:01.16 | DWSR | I got Frozen Giant's Cleaver |
| 05:01.20 | ZorbaTHut | dagmar, I can't help but feel like the ideal answer would be "during" |
| 05:01.21 | DWSR | And Cloak of Many Skins. :D |
| 05:01.29 | Wobin | if you ignore all the devs that don't log into IRC =( |
| 05:01.30 | ZorbaTHut | dwsr, congrats :) |
| 05:01.34 | Dagmar | \o/ |
| 05:01.48 | ZorbaTHut | wobin, in some ways I'd argue that there's a few different communities, and the "IRC group" is a close-knit one |
| 05:02.12 | Wobin | well, Wowace is pretty much IRC only |
| 05:03.00 | Shirik | Email from school: |
| 05:03.23 | Shirik | Attached is a PDF file of the most current/updated copy of Fall 2010 schedule book. |
| 05:03.23 | Shirik | <Attachment removed because it exceeded the size limit per message of your mailbox> |
| 05:03.42 | Shirik | epic fail |
| 05:04.53 | Arrowmaster | what idiot decided to email that as an attachment? if its going to multiple people it should have just been a link |
| 05:05.36 | Shirik | lol, good point |
| 05:10.55 | *** join/#wowuidev Adys (~Adys@unaffiliated/adys) |
| 05:11.43 | *** join/#wowuidev Adys (~Adys@unaffiliated/adys) |
| 05:13.43 | Dagmar | Messed UP! |
| 05:13.49 | *** join/#wowuidev Adys (~Adys@unaffiliated/adys) |
| 05:14.21 | Dagmar | That Nintendo DS pokemon accessory pedometer thing someone linked in here earlier... my co-worker coming in for his shift just brought one in, not knowing what it was |
| 05:15.02 | Adys | shrugs |
| 05:15.04 | Adys | fixed itself |
| 05:15.12 | Adys | "'¹²³âµâ´â·â¶â¸Â£Â£^~§{}â¦`| |
| 05:15.14 | Adys | \o/ |
| 05:17.49 | Shirik | die |
| 05:17.53 | Shirik | you and your crazy stupid symbols |
| 05:18.55 | Adys | how are ", ', ^, $ and ~ stupid? |
| 05:20.37 | NightHawkTheSane | Adys: only communist use those symbols |
| 05:20.37 | Adys | what $_$ |
| 05:28.15 | Wobin | pokewalker? |
| 05:29.49 | Dagmar | Wobin: Yes, another attempt by nintendo to get gamer kids out of the house and into the sun |
| 05:30.18 | Wobin | well, it's a noble sentiment |
| 05:31.46 | Dagmar | I just find it amusing that the things you might call it slangily all sound shifty |
| 05:32.01 | Dagmar | POkepedo... Pedopoke... Pedomon... |
| 05:32.07 | Adys | pokewanker |
| 05:34.00 | Dagmar | ...and of course, The Badge of "Mug This Kid' |
| 05:38.28 | Arrowmaster | like white headphones |
| 05:39.14 | *** join/#wowuidev mojosdojo| (~mojosdojo@p4FEFF04E.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 05:39.28 | Arrowmaster | s/headphones/earbuds/ |
| 05:48.15 | Corrodias | in case someone hasn't seen this, http://img2.sankakustatic.com/wp-content/gallery/safe-misc-iii/unbelievable-wow.jpg |
| 05:51.26 | Arrowmaster | never seen that hardware data before |
| 05:52.01 | Arrowmaster | and its an image so i cant copy paste sources so im not going to bother looking at them |
| 05:52.18 | kd3 | hm... a sankaku reader |
| 05:52.38 | *** join/#wowuidev Schnaks (~Schnaks@p5486ABE8.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 05:52.59 | Arrowmaster | also browses sankaku every now and then |
| 05:53.46 | Arrowmaster | they tend to have good dirt when it comes to one version of a multi console game being a bad port |
| 05:55.14 | *** join/#wowuidev Schnaks (~Schnaks@p5486ABE8.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 06:01.02 | DWSR | Anyone know how much armor + dodge 22 agi works out to be? |
| 06:01.25 | DWSR | err, just armor. |
| 06:01.26 | DWSR | nevermind |
| 06:01.34 | NightHawkTheSane | armor is 2x agi, so .. 22*kings*2? |
| 06:01.48 | kd3 | http://www.wowwiki.com/Attributes#Agility |
| 06:01.49 | DWSR | Yeah. |
| 06:02.22 | DWSR | Agi isn't listed as giving me any dodge. =\ |
| 06:04.18 | DWSR | So basically I'm looking at 48.4 armor + 0.25% dodge vs. 225 armor. |
| 06:05.28 | DWSR | meh, I'll take the armor, I guess. |
| 06:09.56 | DWSR | http://www.wowprogress.com/pve/us/emerald-dream <-- So fucking fail. |
| 06:09.57 | DWSR | omg. |
| 06:13.44 | DWSR | Wow wtf? |
| 06:13.48 | DWSR | I just got 3 shamans in my heroic group |
| 06:14.08 | Arrowmaster | and they are all dps? |
| 06:14.55 | DWSR | i heals, 1 enh, 1 ele. |
| 06:15.18 | DWSR | s/i/1/ |
| 06:17.31 | DWSR | so, not a triple boxer. |
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| 06:29.59 | Dagmar | dwsr: Good thing you're not a hunter then. |
| 06:30.32 | DWSR | lol |
| 06:31.56 | Dagmar | I can see myself typing /p Tell me we're killing _all_ the bosses because I'm pretty sure I'm not winning any damn loot rolls tonight |
| 06:32.33 | DWSR | lol |
| 06:32.37 | DWSR | I don't need any heroic loot anymore. :D |
| 06:33.34 | Dagmar | ...although I do like it when I can just pass on loot because I'm sure someone else needs it more |
| 06:33.54 | Dagmar | CoS I love now that I have my drake |
| 06:34.48 | Dagmar | 'spesh when running on my newbie DK, because half the time I'm running LFD with 1-2 guildies and we WILL maul that place with minutes to spare |
| 06:37.50 | Dagmar | Some of the freakin' Outlands instances are in need of a retuning IMHO now |
| 06:38.03 | Dagmar | We've been three-manning them at the appropriate level |
| 06:38.33 | Dagmar | ...although that might be the effect of having enchants, gems, coming out our ears |
| 06:39.44 | Dagmar | ...and on the other end of that spectrum, some of the HP instances I get the crap beaten out of me at 80 |
| 06:45.17 | digmouse|work | soloing? |
| 06:45.25 | Dagmar | Yeah |
| 06:45.32 | DWSR | rofl |
| 06:45.35 | Dagmar | The disparity in difficulty is _stark_ |
| 06:45.35 | digmouse|work | I can only solo Ramparts to the final boss |
| 06:45.48 | digmouse|work | cant do the dreadlord |
| 06:45.58 | digmouse|work | BM spec |
| 06:46.02 | DWSR | I trolling 3 gold sellers at the same time. |
| 06:46.06 | DWSR | Telling them I need 200k |
| 06:46.11 | digmouse|work | lol |
| 06:46.40 | Dagmar | Yeah, if I respecced to pet tank as BM I might be able to get by, but still... To go from barely having to slow down, to getting pounded silly every few feet. Sheesh |
| 06:47.10 | Dagmar | 3-manning Underbog and Slave Pens at the right level kinda says to me it's a bit too soft |
| 06:47.20 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (~kd3@user-1121iar.dsl.mindspring.com) |
| 06:47.21 | DWSR | ROFL\ |
| 06:47.31 | DWSR | This gold seller is like "That's easy to farm. We have over 100 farm guys" |
| 06:49.15 | Dagmar | Somehow I don't think I could string goldsellers along like I do Nigerians |
| 06:49.37 | DWSR | rofl |
| 06:49.44 | DWSR | Dagmar: I've been talking to this one for like about 15 minutes. |
| 06:50.06 | Dagmar | I've learned that if you play along for a bit, and ask 'em about their family, angling towards getting them to tell you they have a _daughter_... THEN you can get them |
| 06:50.12 | Mr_Rabies | i used to grief them out in tyr's hand to the point that they would train mobs into me anytime i was in the plaguelands |
| 06:50.17 | Dagmar | There's apparently a deep cultural taboo about anal sex there. |
| 06:50.28 | Mr_Rabies | rooting, fearing their kills, etc |
| 06:50.36 | Mr_Rabies | tapping just before they attack |
| 06:50.44 | Mr_Rabies | with like rank 1 moonfire |
| 06:50.54 | Dagmar | Tell 'em "Well, I don't know if I can really trust you... But if I flew down there, I think maybe if I *****ed your daughter in the ***, then I'd know you were legit." |
| 06:50.59 | Dagmar | EVERY time they get furious about that |
| 06:51.45 | DWSR | rofl Dagmar |
| 06:54.31 | DWSR | Dagmar: It'd be funnier if they had a son, imo. |
| 06:54.44 | Dagmar | Yeah, but I'm not going _there_ even as a joke |
| 06:54.50 | Shirik | .... |
| 06:54.56 | Shirik | seriously, wtf is with 4chan |
| 06:55.04 | Shirik | I've been dealing with an attack of theirs for like.... 4 hours straight now |
| 06:55.07 | DWSR | Dagmar: Why? You could pretend you were a girl who found it hot to bone a guy with a strapon. |
| 06:55.09 | Shirik | don't they get bored? |
| 06:55.11 | DWSR | Shirik: FOR GREAT JUSTICE |
| 06:55.18 | DWSR | Not when it's for great justice. |
| 06:55.27 | DWSR | did the Crusader's get bored? |
| 06:55.28 | Dagmar | Shirik: This is how they get "not bored" |
| 06:55.34 | Shirik | I underestimated |
| 06:55.50 | Shirik | 5 hours |
| 06:55.52 | Mr_Rabies | what are they attacking? |
| 06:55.57 | DWSR | Shirik's talk page. |
| 06:56.00 | Shirik | Actually not mine |
| 06:56.11 | Shirik | but someone I know |
| 06:56.12 | DWSR | orly? |
| 06:56.24 | DWSR | Can't you just lock thepage? |
| 06:56.30 | Shirik | no real need, actually |
| 06:56.34 | Shirik | My coding skills are godly |
| 06:56.39 | Shirik | less than 1% of their attempts have gotten through |
| 06:56.55 | DWSR | lol |
| 06:56.56 | Shirik | I am too fast for them: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&user=Shirik |
| 06:57.01 | DWSR | Then why are you even mentioning it? |
| 06:57.12 | Shirik | because I have to stay awake until they gtfo! |
| 06:57.28 | DWSR | WHY? |
| 06:57.36 | Shirik | to monitor the filter |
| 06:57.41 | DWSR | heh |
| 06:57.42 | DWSR | bbiaw |
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| 07:07.17 | batrick | FOR GREAT JUSTICE |
| 07:08.01 | Shirik | HEY BATRICK |
| 07:08.03 | Shirik | chess? |
| 07:08.08 | batrick | wow rly? |
| 07:08.11 | Shirik | yarly! |
| 07:08.16 | batrick | kk |
| 07:08.19 | batrick | ur white |
| 07:08.24 | Shirik | nono real chess |
| 07:08.34 | batrick | what? |
| 07:08.41 | Shirik | I'm not writing it here :P |
| 07:08.46 | batrick | zzz |
| 07:08.58 | batrick | i forgot that site we used |
| 07:09.02 | batrick | you'll have to link it |
| 07:09.07 | Shirik | do you have a google account? |
| 07:09.10 | Shirik | google has chess now |
| 07:09.18 | batrick | where |
| 07:09.30 | batrick | if you say google wave i'll punch ur fase! |
| 07:09.42 | Shirik | http://www.google.com/ig?ct=1056755011&referrer=ign |
| 07:10.46 | batrick | i see nothing about chess |
| 07:10.55 | Shirik | ? |
| 07:11.01 | Shirik | ok what's your google ID |
| 07:11.13 | batrick | my email? |
| 07:11.34 | Shirik | nm |
| 07:11.48 | batrick | !@ |
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| 07:17.51 | Shirik | ohai2u |
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| 07:32.22 | Taroven | is diggin' the crickets. |
| 07:32.59 | Shirik | diggin the crickets? |
| 07:33.34 | Shirik | omg headache -_- |
| 07:34.00 | Taroven | XD |
| 07:34.21 | Shirik | NOT FUNNY |
| 07:34.25 | Shirik | headaches are not cool :( |
| 07:34.32 | Taroven | Trust me, I know. |
| 07:34.48 | Shirik | We're smart enough, we should be able to just turn off pain |
| 07:34.52 | Shirik | like I know why pain exists |
| 07:34.59 | Shirik | but we also know there's sometimes we can't do anything about it |
| 07:35.03 | Shirik | so just tell it to gtfo |
| 07:35.23 | Taroven | Been trying to evict this headache for three days now, but the bastard refuses to leave. |
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| 07:44.27 | DWSR | Is there a whip-like weapon in WoW? |
| 07:44.44 | DWSR | Want to make an indie look for my human male. |
| 07:45.09 | Taroven | Hmm... don't think so. |
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| 07:47.02 | DWSR | Well, the succubi have them. |
| 07:47.06 | DWSR | so I would assume that the model itself is there. |
| 07:47.11 | DWSR | But, I was hoping for an item with the mode. |
| 07:47.14 | DWSR | model* |
| 07:47.30 | nevcairiel | there is no weapon like that |
| 07:47.41 | nevcairiel | it wouldnt even fit the categorys |
| 07:48.02 | Taroven | The succubus weapon is likely embedded in the succy model itself. |
| 07:48.32 | DWSR | Meh, you're probably right. |
| 07:48.33 | Taroven | Never actually been curious enough to check though. |
| 07:49.26 | krka | not curious enough to check out the succubus model? |
| 07:49.47 | Corrodias | the succubus model has a whip, but it's part of the model |
| 07:49.51 | Shirik | DWSR wants to see a BE with a whip |
| 07:49.54 | Corrodias | as far as i remember. if it does have one. |
| 07:50.14 | Corrodias | you know, it's actually been too long. i don't recall just how it looks. but i know they'd just make it part of that one model. |
| 07:51.46 | Taroven | http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=8657#modelviewer |
| 07:51.53 | Taroven | Whip's just built in. |
| 07:55.30 | DWSR | Meh, sort of unfortunate. |
| 07:55.38 | DWSR | Too bad, no Indiana Jones look :( |
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| 07:57.27 | nevcairiel | just mug harrison jones and steal his style |
| 07:58.36 | nevcairiel | he carrys around a torch, though |
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| 08:30.00 | Adys | SHADOWED PING OMG SHADOWED PING PING PING |
| 08:30.15 | Shadowed | tred wisely, Cairenn|afk is asleep |
| 08:33.01 | DWSR | Truer words have no been spoken. |
| 08:35.20 | DWSR | s/no/not/ |
| 08:38.20 | Fisker | slaps Shadowed around a bit with a large trout |
| 08:38.39 | DWSR | slaps a trout around with large Fisker |
| 08:38.55 | Fisker | NO! |
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| 08:56.16 | truedego | does X = # TableName return the number value as the variable X? |
| 08:57.57 | sylvanaar_atwork | yes? |
| 08:58.54 | DWSR | !api Reseted |
| 08:58.56 | lua_bot | Could not find a match for 'Reseted'. |
| 08:58.59 | DWSR | !api Rested |
| 08:59.02 | lua_bot | Found 2 possible results for 'Rested': GetBillingTimeRested, GetTimeToWellRested |
| 08:59.12 | sylvanaar_atwork | lua> X=#{1,2,3} print X |
| 08:59.12 | DWSR | !api GetTimeToWellRested |
| 08:59.13 | lua_bot | sylvanaar_atwork: luabot:1: '=' expected near 'X' |
| 08:59.15 | lua_bot | GetTimeToWellRested: This function is deprecated and should no longer be used (http://wowprogramming.com/docs/api/GetTimeToWellRested) |
| 08:59.21 | DWSR | !api Rest |
| 08:59.22 | lua_bot | Found 21 possible matches for 'Rest'. Please be more specific |
| 08:59.24 | sylvanaar_atwork | lua> X=(#{1,2,3}) print X |
| 08:59.26 | lua_bot | sylvanaar_atwork: luabot:1: '=' expected near 'X' |
| 08:59.29 | DWSR | !api RestXP |
| 08:59.30 | lua_bot | Could not find a match for 'RestXP'. |
| 08:59.44 | sylvanaar_atwork | lua> T={1,2,3} X=#T print X |
| 08:59.46 | lua_bot | sylvanaar_atwork: luabot:1: '=' expected near 'X' |
| 08:59.47 | Taroven | DWSR: Whatcha trying to find? |
| 08:59.50 | sylvanaar_atwork | wtf |
| 08:59.55 | DWSR | Taroven: Rest XP |
| 08:59.59 | sylvanaar_atwork | lua> T={1,2,3} X=#T print(X) |
| 09:00.01 | lua_bot | sylvanaar_atwork: 3 |
| 09:00.08 | DWSR | i.e. How much I have. |
| 09:00.13 | Taroven | Sec |
| 09:00.17 | Arrowmaster | lua> X=#({1,2,3}) print X |
| 09:00.21 | lua_bot | Arrowmaster: luabot:1: '=' expected near 'X' |
| 09:00.26 | Arrowmaster | lua> X=#({1,2,3}) print(X) |
| 09:00.28 | sylvanaar_atwork | lua> X=(#{1,2,3}) print(X) |
| 09:00.32 | lua_bot | Arrowmaster: 3 |
| 09:00.35 | lua_bot | sylvanaar_atwork: 3 |
| 09:00.53 | Taroven | !api GetXPExhaustion |
| 09:00.56 | lua_bot | GetXPExhaustion: Returns the amount of rested bonus experience available (http://wowprogramming.com/docs/api/GetXPExhaustion) |
| 09:01.00 | DWSR | ah, thanks. |
| 09:01.05 | Taroven | ^_^ |
| 09:01.12 | Arrowmaster | lua> unpack({1,nil,3}) |
| 09:01.22 | lua_bot | Arrowmaster: 1, nil, 3 |
| 09:01.26 | sylvanaar_atwork | i asked this in #wowace anyone know much about the European Union Public Licence |
| 09:01.45 | DWSR | Google does. |
| 09:01.59 | zenzio | never heard of it o_O |
| 09:02.19 | sylvanaar_atwork | assume i have googled and wikipedia'ed it |
| 09:02.26 | DWSR | sylvanaar: Then no. |
| 09:02.52 | DWSR | What do you need to know besides what's on the wiki page, anyway? |
| 09:02.56 | DWSR | It's pretty comprehensive |
| 09:03.03 | sylvanaar_atwork | i dont understand it |
| 09:03.27 | sylvanaar_atwork | does it mean that its less restrictive than CPL EPL etc |
| 09:03.44 | Taroven | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Public_Licence - "Its main goal is its focusing on being consistent with the copyright law in the 27 Member States of the European Union, while retaining compatibility with popular open-source software licences such as the GNU General Public License." |
| 09:03.58 | DWSR | IT's compatible with the GPL. |
| 09:04.08 | Taroven | So basically, GPL+European copyright I suppose |
| 09:04.49 | DWSR | yeah, more or less, from what I understand. |
| 09:04.57 | DWSR | sylvanaar: I don't speak legalese. |
| 09:04.57 | Arrowmaster | has it been recognized as GPL compatible or is that just what they claim? |
| 09:05.04 | DWSR | Arrowmaster: It's recognised. |
| 09:05.10 | DWSR | Arrowmaster: It's also OSI certified. |
| 09:05.31 | DWSR | Ah, whoops |
| 09:05.31 | DWSR | ^ The EUPL is not explicitly compatible with the GPL v.3. The EUPL allows re-licensing under CeCILL v. 2.0, and CeCILL is explicitly GPL v.3 compatible. However, this is limited to re-licensing a derivative work integrating at least one component received under CeCILL v.2.0. |
| 09:05.33 | DWSR | Footnote. |
| 09:05.43 | sylvanaar_atwork | If the Licensee Distributes and/or Communicates Derivative |
| 09:05.43 | sylvanaar_atwork | Works or copies thereof based upon both the Original Work and another work |
| 09:05.43 | sylvanaar_atwork | licensed under a Compatible Licence, this Distribution and/or Communication can be |
| 09:05.43 | sylvanaar_atwork | done under the terms of this Compatible Licence." |
| 09:05.50 | nevcairiel | GPL v3 is fail anyway |
| 09:06.19 | Arrowmaster | http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html |
| 09:06.25 | Arrowmaster | sorry its listed as incompatible |
| 09:06.30 | sylvanaar_atwork | why is gpl3 fail? |
| 09:06.33 | DWSR | Arrowmaster: Read the footnote. |
| 09:07.22 | nevcairiel | Arrowmaster: it says its incompatible with v3, but its compatible with v2 |
| 09:07.46 | Adys | sylvanaar_atwork: tbh anything not bsd/mit is kinda fail :P |
| 09:07.56 | sylvanaar_atwork | i agree mostaly Adys |
| 09:07.57 | Adys | depends a lot on the project i guess |
| 09:08.07 | Adys | but i try as much as possible to stick to bsd |
| 09:08.23 | sylvanaar_atwork | i PD alot of my wow stuff now |
| 09:08.32 | sylvanaar_atwork | i like MIT though |
| 09:09.01 | nevcairiel | for wow stuff i dont license it at all, its totally unimportant and allows me to keep it off ugly sites like wowmatrix :P |
| 09:09.20 | Arrowmaster | sylvanaar_atwork: you live in the US? |
| 09:09.25 | Taroven | Stepping away from licenses for a sec... Anyone happen to have an offhand idea of how many times per second UNIT_AURA('target') is called in a 5/10-man boss encounter (assuming 'target' == boss)? |
| 09:09.28 | sylvanaar_atwork | yes |
| 09:09.41 | DWSR | are you allowed to place restrictions on where source code is available from if you have an OSI license? I'm assuming no. |
| 09:10.31 | nevcairiel | DWSR: nah, people are allowed to redistribute it freely |
| 09:10.57 | Arrowmaster | sylvanaar_atwork: hehe, did you know the US has no recognized method of putting software into the PD, and one loophole for doing it that costs money? |
| 09:11.13 | Adys | Taroven: depends on the boss encounter |
| 09:11.17 | sylvanaar_atwork | Arrowmaster: no, i didn't |
| 09:11.20 | Adys | its every time a spell effect ticks isnt it? |
| 09:11.53 | sylvanaar_atwork | Arrowmaster: so what you are saying is, i should use MIT or something |
| 09:11.56 | DWSR | Adys: No? |
| 09:12.05 | DWSR | Adys: UNIT_AURA would be whenever an effect drops off/is applied, right? |
| 09:12.20 | Taroven | Every time an aura is applied, dispelled, changed (refreshed/etc), or fades |
| 09:12.31 | Arrowmaster | sylvanaar_atwork: nah, use PD, more chances of the issue actually getting resolved if theres ever a court case about it |
| 09:12.43 | DWSR | Taroven: Right. |
| 09:12.50 | DWSR | So, a few hundred times a second, I'd imagine. |
| 09:12.50 | Arrowmaster | its germany that doesnt have a PD right? |
| 09:12.54 | nevcairiel | US is weird, why do you need a "recognized method" to put something into PD, instead you just say "I relinquish all rights to this shit, do wtf you want!" |
| 09:13.03 | Taroven | DWSR: Hell no O_O |
| 09:13.22 | DWSR | Taroven: Watch your combat log. |
| 09:13.33 | Taroven | I know for a fact UNIT_AURA is *not* called more often than CLEU or OnUpdate scripts. |
| 09:13.51 | Arrowmaster | nevcairiel: is it germany that doesnt have a PD because you cant legally give up all rights? |
| 09:14.35 | Taroven | In the middle of writing out a script, suppose I'll just run some 5mans and maybe pug the weekly if there's a group at this time of the mornin'. |
| 09:14.39 | DWSR | Taroven: Why do you think they're changing things like Demonic Pact, Abominable Might, Imp. Icy Talons, etc? |
| 09:14.39 | Adys | Taroven: whatever the answer is, it would be "a lot" |
| 09:15.02 | Adys | during the fight, I wouldnt say 100 times per sec, but definitely over 20 times / sec in a 25man raid |
| 09:15.04 | DWSR | They're giving them ICDs and making them 100 yards instead of 40. |
| 09:15.24 | Taroven | DWSR: Actually I believe they're just making them auras. |
| 09:15.31 | DWSR | nope. |
| 09:15.34 | DWSR | Not DP, anyway. |
| 09:15.40 | Taroven | Huh. |
| 09:15.42 | nevcairiel | Arrowmaster: the copy right is basically split in two parts, the one part you can give up, the second part you can't. You'll always stay the author, and if someone uses your work to do something you never intended and goes against your believes, you always have the right to stop them. |
| 09:15.43 | Taroven | *shrug* |
| 09:16.07 | Taroven | Adys: I'd agree on at least 40x/sec in a 25man. |
| 09:16.23 | Taroven | Some classes just get ungodly automatic debuff procs |
| 09:16.33 | Adys | ya |
| 09:16.41 | DWSR | Taroven: Yes. |
| 09:16.51 | DWSR | I wouldn't be surprised to see anything up to 100 times per second. |
| 09:16.55 | Adys | as a warlock, you can easily proc SPELL_AURA like 5 times per second alone |
| 09:17.01 | Taroven | Yeah. |
| 09:17.11 | DWSR | adys: hehe, yep. :D |
| 09:17.27 | Adys | however as a warrior, you'll never even hit 1/sec |
| 09:17.43 | Taroven | Reason I ask, btw, is because UNIT_AURA doesn't fire for mouseover and I'm trying to find a comfortable level of throttling for it. |
| 09:17.43 | DWSR | ISB, Haunt/EA, DL/DS |
| 09:18.02 | nevcairiel | Arrowmaster: which is also true for stuff you sell, so if someone buys artwork from you, and for example butchers the artwork and destroys its original style, you can make them stop. |
| 09:18.12 | Taroven | Currently using 150ms but that just doesn't feel like a good number. |
| 09:18.12 | nevcairiel | even if you gave up all other rights to it. |
| 09:19.08 | Arrowmaster | nevcairiel: its believed the US may be the similar, part of the copyright law says that the original author always has the right to revoke any license for upto so many years i think unless they were hired to do the work for somebody else, but it hasnt been challenged with PD so it up in the air until a judicial ruling on it |
| 09:19.26 | Taroven | Hmm... |
| 09:19.38 | Taroven | Think I'll just make it 100ms, play with it from there, and call it good |
| 09:19.45 | nevcairiel | it was tried in court here, and the author won |
| 09:19.52 | DWSR | Taroven: Take a look at TipTac's source. |
| 09:19.57 | nevcairiel | well not with PD, but with a commercial copyright |
| 09:19.58 | DWSR | It deals with Unit Auras on the tooltip |
| 09:20.01 | nevcairiel | but its the same |
| 09:20.12 | Arrowmaster | yes i know way more about US public domain than i should since i have no interest in law |
| 09:20.14 | nevcairiel | the author can always intervene to protect his work |
| 09:20.20 | *** join/#wowuidev brykrys (~chatzilla@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Dev/Brykrys) |
| 09:21.01 | *** join/#wowuidev sioraiocht (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht) |
| 09:21.58 | nevcairiel | PD basically means you give up all distribution and usage rights, but you still stay the author and can protect the work from being mangled or mis-presented |
| 09:21.59 | Arrowmaster | has actually read all parts of US law relating to public domain and software (well all the parts mentioned on wikipedia, but i actually went and read them) |
| 09:22.14 | nevcairiel | here, anyway |
| 09:24.26 | Arrowmaster | oh yeah the part in US law about being able to revoke any license, it has to be done in a written notice to the license holder, which is why it might or might not work for PD |
| 09:27.07 | Adys | http://content.yieldmanager.edgesuite.net/atoms/67/8d/70/19/678d7019b13c90bb17d4c202960533bb.gif |
| 09:27.12 | Adys | Wowhead ads are getting better and better |
| 09:27.33 | Arrowmaster | what does it say? |
| 09:27.58 | Taroven | DWSR: Just looked over TipTac's source again (part of where I got the idea for this little project), still having trouble finding exactly what's firing the aura code, assuming it's done onupdate though. |
| 09:28.40 | Adys | Arrowmaster: it's some "learn how to get muscle and be fit" bullshit |
| 09:28.41 | Taroven | Honestly I've got no problem doing this onupdate, just wanna make sure I've got a reasonable frequency of updates before I commit to a release. |
| 09:30.16 | Taroven | (Heck, I need an onupdate anyway to check for when the mouseover target no longer exists since Blizz provides nothing, it's no huge deal to tack on a call to a function that's already there with a throttle in place) |
| 09:30.39 | Arrowmaster | no you dont |
| 09:30.52 | Arrowmaster | !api MOUSEOVER |
| 09:30.55 | lua_bot | Found 3 possible results for 'MOUSEOVER': UPDATE_MOUSEOVER_UNIT, Region:IsMouseOver, QuestPOIFrame:UpdateMouseOverTooltip |
| 09:31.19 | Taroven | Arrowmaster: UPDATE_MOUSEOVER_UNIT only fires when the mouse begins hovering over a unit. |
| 09:31.24 | Taroven | It doesn't fire when the mouse leaves. |
| 09:31.27 | Maldivia | Adys: they probably thought computer gamers could use some body toning :P |
| 09:31.33 | Adys | yeha Maldivia |
| 09:31.40 | Arrowmaster | i swore it used to, maybe they broke it |
| 09:31.42 | nevcairiel | adblockers ftw :d |
| 09:31.53 | Taroven | They prolly did at some point. |
| 09:32.30 | Maldivia | Adys: for some reason, I'm seeing a lot of that kind of adds recently, the "get the perfect body in 4 weeks, without lifting a finger" type of adds |
| 09:32.39 | Taroven | No biggy, I'm screwed on this one either way... just gotta use an onupdate and nil it out when a mouseover unit doesn't exist to save cycles |
| 09:32.47 | Adys | Maldivia: Muscle viagra |
| 09:32.56 | Adys | AKA "Douchebag pills" |
| 09:33.27 | Maldivia | Adys: well, haven't bothered to click any of the adds, so don't kno what they are trying to sell me :) |
| 09:33.35 | Adys | Nor do I, Im just guessing |
| 09:33.35 | Adys | :P |
| 09:33.38 | zenzio | Taroven: couldn't you do some hack like make a unit frame with no visible elements, set its unit to "mouseover" and use RegisterUnitWatch or whatever it is? |
| 09:33.53 | zenzio | and use its show/hide events |
| 09:34.20 | Taroven | zenzio: Nope. Doesn't matter too much though. |
| 09:35.59 | Taroven | zenzio: TBH, that'd prolly take a helluva lot more resources than what I'm currently doing anyway |
| 09:37.59 | Taroven | http://wowuidev.pastey.net/134287 for the curious, the 3 functions involved in all this hackery. =P |
| 09:39.19 | Taroven | Not proud of checking UnitExists('mouseover') every frame, but eh. |
| 09:41.15 | Arrowmaster | Taroven: what does the default tooltip do to trigger its fade out? |
| 09:43.01 | Taroven | Arrowmaster: Someone else asked exactly the same thing a couple days ago when I was prototyping all this, I honestly have no idea... dug around for a good while before giving up (around the time I figured out that an onupdate would be about the best way to trigger the fake UNIT_AURA anyway) and doing it that way. |
| 09:45.51 | Taroven | I'd throttle the UnitExists check, but I really don't like the idea of missing a unit reset due to someone moving their mouse really quick. |
| 09:47.44 | Taroven | Stuck between a rock and a hard place? Make friends with the rock. |
| 09:50.36 | zenzio | couldn't you throttle it but also listen to UPDATE_MOUSEOVER_UNIT? |
| 09:56.00 | Taroven | zenzio: U_M_U is called exactly half as often as I need. The fake UNIT_AURA is throttled to a frequency of 0.15 seconds (150ms) out of respect for the hard work our computers already do. |
| 09:56.00 | Taroven | The OnUpdate basically emulates the reverse of UPDATE_MOUSEOVER_UNIT. |
| 09:56.11 | zenzio | I would have thought UMU would fire every time the mouseover unit changed |
| 09:56.16 | Taroven | It does. |
| 09:56.27 | Taroven | It just doesn't fire when the mouseover unit is CLEARED. >.< |
| 09:56.46 | zenzio | that's why I say throttle the UnitExists check in combination with UMU |
| 09:57.05 | zenzio | but I didn't catch the details on what you're doing, so I'm just making blind shots |
| 09:57.10 | Taroven | Heh. |
| 09:57.13 | Taroven | Here's the deal. |
| 09:57.26 | Taroven | UNIT_AURA('mouseover') is a fictional beast. |
| 09:57.58 | Taroven | There's no decent way of detecting when the auras of a mouseover unit change without a certain level of hackery. |
| 09:58.20 | Taroven | My method just emulates it at a set interval, which requires an OnUpdate anyway. |
| 09:59.52 | Taroven | UPDATE_MOUSEOVER_UNIT is half-fictional... it's fired every time the mouseover unit changes, but the ONLY event that is fired when the mouseover unit is *cleared* (meaning, moving the mouse away from any unit whatsoever) is ACTIONBAR_SLOT_CHANGED |
| 10:00.51 | Taroven | And that event is A) Unreliable per user (it only fires when a [@mouseover] macro is present and bound to a user's action bar), and B) fired multiple times per mouseover change, which is BAD. |
| 10:01.19 | *** join/#wowuidev Fisker (brb@62.61.142.209.generic-hostname.arrownet.dk) |
| 10:03.01 | Taroven | If I could avoid using an OnUpdate at all, that would be freaking epic... But that would require UNIT_AURA('mouseover') to be fired regularly by the standard UI (which I would NOT want to see happen, more UNIT_AURA firings are about the last thing anyone but me needs) and a reliable event fired when a mouseover no longer exists. |
| 10:03.25 | *** join/#wowuidev Esamynn|Away (~chatzilla@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Esamynn) |
| 10:03.25 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Esamynn|Away] by ChanServ |
| 10:03.39 | Taroven | So, the onupdate in that pastey does a few things. |
| 10:03.50 | Taroven | 1) Emulates a reverse UPDATE_MOUSEOVER_UNIT |
| 10:04.15 | Taroven | 2) Calls UNIT_AURA('mouseover') at an arbitrary frequency |
| 10:04.43 | zenzio | I'd still be tempted to try the unit frame approach. If using "mouseover" as a unit works with RegisterUnitWatch, and the frame appropriately shows/hides whenever the mouseover exists/doesn't exist, you could use that frame's OnUpdate and it would only fire while the mouseover existed |
| 10:04.49 | Taroven | 3) Nils itself out when a mouseover unit doesn't exist (saving CPU for the stuff that matters) |
| 10:06.18 | Adys | haha, slashdot comments |
| 10:06.23 | nevcairiel | zenzio: all the unitwatch does is check in an onupdate if its still there |
| 10:06.28 | Taroven | ^ |
| 10:06.40 | Adys | this guy is saying h264 patent doesnt matter because "it only lives 14-21 years anyway" |
| 10:06.46 | nevcairiel | throttled to 0.2 seconds |
| 10:06.53 | DWSR | Adys: Doesn't it live like...100 years+? |
| 10:06.55 | Adys | someone's forgetting this kind of format is replaced every 5-6 years anyway |
| 10:07.04 | nevcairiel | Adys: i'm saying the patent doesnt matter because i'm in the EU \o/ |
| 10:07.05 | Adys | DWSR: no, patents arent the same as copyright |
| 10:07.10 | Adys | nevcairiel: idd |
| 10:07.11 | DWSR | heh. |
| 10:07.27 | Taroven | That's a scary idea, Adys. |
| 10:07.37 | nevcairiel | patents are for designs, copyright is for actual implementations |
| 10:07.38 | Adys | what is? |
| 10:07.41 | nevcairiel | dont get them mixed up |
| 10:07.48 | zenzio | nevcairiel: I'd still try it just to see if it worked :-p But it's no secret that I'm not a very talented add-on developer |
| 10:07.48 | Taroven | A patent living for the registrar's lifetime plus 70 years. |
| 10:07.54 | Adys | ah |
| 10:07.55 | Adys | yeah |
| 10:08.13 | Taroven | And to think. |
| 10:08.32 | Taroven | Activists are actually trying to EXTEND copyright. |
| 10:09.13 | Arrowmaster | not activists, corporate lobbyists |
| 10:09.23 | Taroven | Miswording, apologies. |
| 10:09.34 | Taroven | It's 6am and I'm still awake, do I get a mulligan? =P |
| 10:09.37 | nevcairiel | wonder if we'll get a second micky mouse protection act once its gone =P |
| 10:09.43 | Arrowmaster | one of the original disney films is going to expire very soon |
| 10:12.03 | Adys | wasnt peter pan supposed to expire last month or something? |
| 10:12.32 | DWSR | Your mom expired last month |
| 10:15.15 | *** join/#wowuidev spode (spode@213.21.89.233) |
| 10:19.55 | olafski | funny to see all that speculation about patch 3.9 :P |
| 10:25.22 | DWSR | Anyone have a guide to power leveling jewelcrafing/mining? |
| 10:26.54 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaso (~Kaso@studio.fuzemedia.co.uk) |
| 10:27.12 | Taroven | DWSR: There's a decent one on the official tradeskills forum, IIRC |
| 10:27.16 | truedego | http://www.wow-professions.com/ |
| 10:27.19 | Taroven | Or that |
| 10:27.26 | *** join/#wowuidev Fisker (brb@62.61.142.209.generic-hostname.arrownet.dk) |
| 10:38.08 | *** join/#wowuidev Trela (~Alexia@user-24-214-136-218.knology.net) |
| 10:40.03 | Wobin | http://pics.blameitonthevoices.com/032010/coded_smooth_criminal.jpg |
| 10:40.21 | Arrowmaster | http://kotaku.com/5496208/what-is-this-pc-hardware-or-city-of-the-future |
| 10:40.21 | Arrowmaster | http://channel.asus.com.tw/channelv2/DownloadNoLoginList.aspx?Path=B89F9E03217B9D019EFDB6ED5777E1E5 |
| 10:40.24 | Arrowmaster | sexy |
| 10:42.29 | Arrowmaster | http://channel.asus.com.tw/channelv2/materialfiles/imagefiles/DDCE8CE1B8_42283_b.jpg |
| 10:42.36 | Arrowmaster | it has a 'Go Button' |
| 10:42.37 | olafski | not bad |
| 10:42.50 | olafski | overclocking from your mobile phone.. nice |
| 10:45.34 | Fisker | no |
| 10:45.40 | Fisker | BUT DOES IT HAVE A MEM OK BUTTON!? |
| 10:51.45 | *** join/#wowuidev QzzLeb (~lebqzz@56341ed5.rev.stofanet.dk) |
| 10:52.49 | *** join/#wowuidev Taroven (HydraIRC@HW-ESR1-208-102-8-69.fuse.net) |
| 11:00.29 | DWSR | I find myself skipping out of H CoS, H OK, and H HoL a lot. |
| 11:00.31 | DWSR | Is it just me? |
| 11:00.43 | nevcairiel | Yes. |
| 11:00.56 | nevcairiel | CoS is so fast |
| 11:01.05 | DWSR | No it's not. |
| 11:01.19 | DWSR | H AN skipping Hadronox is fast. |
| 11:01.30 | nevcairiel | you mean, exploiting |
| 11:01.35 | nevcairiel | i hope you get banned :) |
| 11:01.46 | DWSR | Actually, I didn't exploit it. |
| 11:01.51 | DWSR | We just ran through and ignored the boss. |
| 11:01.57 | DWSR | Jumped down the hole. |
| 11:02.11 | nevcairiel | But why would you skip anyway |
| 11:02.21 | nevcairiel | you either do one heroic a day for the frost |
| 11:02.33 | nevcairiel | and if you only do one, 5 minutes more don't really matter |
| 11:02.38 | nevcairiel | and if you do them for triumph |
| 11:02.40 | nevcairiel | why skip? :d |
| 11:02.45 | DWSR | E/hr. |
| 11:02.56 | DWSR | Opportunity cost. |
| 11:03.02 | DWSR | I'm not saying I agree with you in that particular instance. |
| 11:03.20 | DWSR | I'm saying that I wholeheartedly agree with skipping some bosses purely because it's so far out of your way to go get them. |
| 11:03.33 | nevcairiel | like .. hadronox :P |
| 11:03.42 | nevcairiel | we never do the mushroom dude in OK |
| 11:03.42 | DWSR | And yes, being stuck in a heroic 5 extra minutes is apparently an issue to some people. |
| 11:03.50 | DWSR | Don't ask me, I never *skip* Hadronox. |
| 11:03.56 | DWSR | I just reset all his trash then zerg him. |
| 11:04.04 | DWSR | Speaking of boss exploits. |
| 11:04.10 | DWSR | You seen the one for Rotface and Festergut to get the weekly? |
| 11:04.24 | nevcairiel | no |
| 11:04.26 | Taroven | Done that four times, heh |
| 11:04.33 | DWSR | Yeah. |
| 11:04.37 | DWSR | It's, ingenius. |
| 11:04.47 | Taroven | It's a clever use of mechanics. |
| 11:04.50 | nevcairiel | i dont do icc, and even if i would, i'm not comfortable with obvious exploits |
| 11:04.58 | DWSR | Because of the new mob positioning logic, you can now tank Festergut outside of the door. |
| 11:05.07 | DWSR | Basically, you just walk up to the door and he'll walk *through* it. |
| 11:05.18 | DWSR | Apparently, if you get it in just the right spot, he resets. |
| 11:05.30 | DWSR | Having someone on the outside of the door taunt him over to you works as well. |
| 11:05.36 | DWSR | Rotface is the same deal. |
| 11:05.43 | DWSR | Makes getting the weekly done a breeze. |
| 11:05.48 | Taroven | Rotface is a hell of a lot harder to glitch. |
| 11:05.55 | Taroven | Err |
| 11:05.57 | Taroven | Fester |
| 11:05.57 | DWSR | Taroven: Oddly enough, it was easier for my group. |
| 11:06.01 | DWSR | ah |
| 11:06.03 | DWSR | Yeah. |
| 11:06.07 | DWSR | It seems to work a lot better if you have 2 tanks. |
| 11:06.21 | DWSR | as long as you get him to stand partially through the door, you can taunt him and then he'll reset because he's left the room |
| 11:06.27 | Taroven | Rotface is easy, we just use two tanks playing taunt pingpong and have a paladin outside the room taunt once someone gets the debuff |
| 11:06.44 | DWSR | To be perfectly honest, I blame Blizzard. |
| 11:06.48 | Taroven | (can't taunt directly, but friendly spells do go through... including Righteous Defense) |
| 11:07.13 | DWSR | It's only exploitable because a) the new mob positioning logic makes shit fucked up to begin with. |
| 11:07.20 | DWSR | and b) mob/wall collision, kthx. |
| 11:07.38 | Taroven | Heh. |
| 11:07.51 | Taroven | I'd call it a clever use of mechanics. |
| 11:08.00 | DWSR | The fact that he resets when you pull him out of the room is an obvious abuse prevention mechanism, but it doesn't work well when you can position him out of the room to start with. |
| 11:08.06 | Taroven | If Blizz wanted to fix it they'd just make the debuff fade if the mob evade resets. |
| 11:08.15 | DWSR | Taroven: Yes, as would I. It's still a huge exploit, though |
| 11:08.23 | DWSR | Taroven: I don't know if that's as easy as it sounds, though |
| 11:08.26 | Taroven | Oh, of course. |
| 11:08.42 | DWSR | Is there a technical difference between evade reset and wipe reset? |
| 11:08.56 | DWSR | Also, he doesn't evade reset in this particular case. |
| 11:09.02 | DWSR | He gets reset because he crosses the room boundary. |
| 11:09.12 | Taroven | Good point, he just poofs |
| 11:09.23 | DWSR | As I said, I don't think it's quite that easy. |
| 11:09.29 | Taroven | I dunno. |
| 11:09.34 | ZorbaTHut | it definitely sounds like an exploit to me, and if I were Blizzard I'd be trying to find a way to penalize it |
| 11:09.47 | DWSR | ZorbaTHut: I'd be trying to find a way to fix it. |
| 11:09.47 | ZorbaTHut | clever, though |
| 11:09.54 | ZorbaTHut | dwsr, well, that too :) |
| 11:09.58 | ZorbaTHut | I mean I thought that was just obvious ;) |
| 11:10.02 | DWSR | :P |
| 11:10.03 | DWSR | Anyway. |
| 11:10.12 | Taroven | I don't think it'd be hard to place an OnMobReset or something into the existing evade/reset code |
| 11:10.12 | DWSR | http://elitistarmory.com/US/Emerald%20/Dream/Arelin |
| 11:10.19 | DWSR | I CAN HAZ AXE, MKAY? |
| 11:10.30 | Taroven | http://elitistarmory.com/not_found |
| 11:10.40 | Taroven | =\ |
| 11:10.58 | DWSR | http://elitistarmory.com/US/Emerald%20Dream/Arelin |
| 11:11.03 | DWSR | Whoops. |
| 11:11.08 | DWSR | Fat fingered an extra / |
| 11:11.17 | DWSR | Anyway. |
| 11:11.33 | Taroven | But yeah... it shouldn't be hard to call an extra function as long as the cause of reset is known, and the servers obviously know reasons for a mob reset. |
| 11:11.37 | DWSR | Taroven: You need to differentiate the conditions which are present at the mob reset time. |
| 11:11.54 | Taroven | Well, if it were me coding it... |
| 11:11.59 | DWSR | And I'm not saying that they *couldn't* do it, but I wonder if the mechanisms were available to code that. |
| 11:12.06 | Taroven | OnReset(reason) |
| 11:12.11 | DWSR | To be completely fucking honest, I'd like to see a fuckload less model clipping |
| 11:12.16 | DWSR | In, like, everything. |
| 11:12.28 | zenzio | such as? |
| 11:12.32 | DWSR | player models. |
| 11:12.41 | Taroven | if reason == tether then (insert code to remove all debuffs in place from the encounter) etc end |
| 11:12.42 | zenzio | clipping to what? |
| 11:12.58 | DWSR | zenzio: walls, doors, floors. |
| 11:13.11 | DWSR | Also, equipment models would be really nice to not have clip through other equipment models. |
| 11:13.24 | Taroven | But that actually requires work. |
| 11:13.30 | DWSR | I realize that this isn't a huge deal in any way, but it would really be nice to not have my mace swinging through the fucking cap I'm wearing. |
| 11:13.37 | DWSR | s/cap/cape/ |
| 11:13.42 | DWSR | Taroven: How like life |
| 11:13.55 | zenzio | when you say "less clipping", you mean that the models would obey the rules as if they were actually physical objects? |
| 11:14.00 | DWSR | yes |
| 11:14.05 | zenzio | ah, then I do agree |
| 11:14.09 | nevcairiel | thats a hell of work |
| 11:14.52 | DWSR | zenzio: sorry, I thought clipping was pretty well understood in terms of 3d models. |
| 11:14.59 | Taroven | Quick method would be to use the current hitbox code as a clipping method |
| 11:15.09 | Taroven | I know it's been done. =P |
| 11:15.12 | DWSR | Taroven: Yeah, it wouldn't be bad. |
| 11:15.21 | DWSR | Would stop the weekly exploit easily enough |
| 11:15.21 | zenzio | DWSR: it is; but I read things ambiguously sometimes. I thought perhaps you meant you wanted them to do less checks for clipping |
| 11:15.34 | DWSR | zenzio: No, in that case I would want more clipping |
| 11:15.56 | nevcairiel | 100% accurate clipping is totally complicated |
| 11:16.03 | DWSR | nevcairiel: It's not even 100% right now. |
| 11:16.06 | DWSR | It's not even 50%. |
| 11:16.13 | ZorbaTHut | nev, on the other hand, "better clipping than what we have right now" may not be too difficult. |
| 11:16.22 | DWSR | The models have no boundaries to them what so ever right now. |
| 11:16.23 | ZorbaTHut | and it is pretty damn bad. |
| 11:16.30 | ZorbaTHut | I mean who hasn't encountered a monster that is literally stuck inside a tree. |
| 11:17.00 | Taroven | I mean, Blizz has the code in place to judge something's size according to either a preset diameter or model size (not sure which, I'm assuming some sort of hybrid between the two, like using a scale param by entity and a diameter by model), it wouldn't be hard to piggyback off that and say "wall > hitbox, YOU NO GO THERE" |
| 11:17.03 | DWSR | It would also be nice to have the model-terrain orientation looked at. |
| 11:17.15 | nevcairiel | rendering the item models individually is easy, clipping on the other models is *hard*. which to prefer, which to cut off, etc |
| 11:17.22 | DWSR | When you can be riding your horse literally up a fucking wall. |
| 11:17.39 | Taroven | Yeeeeeah. |
| 11:17.52 | nevcairiel | Taroven: even the hitboxes are not that accurate for bosses |
| 11:17.55 | DWSR | ^^ |
| 11:18.07 | DWSR | Hit boxes are so fucking arbitrary for bosses. |
| 11:18.10 | olafski | man the aegis of the scarlet commander is an awesome shield |
| 11:18.21 | DWSR | Sometimes the hit box is the same size as the selection circle. |
| 11:18.23 | DWSR | Sometimes it's smaller. |
| 11:18.25 | Taroven | nevcairiel: They're reasonably accurate for players, which is the root of the discussion as far as I've been paying attention |
| 11:18.28 | ZorbaTHut | as I understand it, hitboxes in the game are all actually hitcylinders |
| 11:18.29 | DWSR | Sometime's it's a WHOLE LOT FUCKING BIGGER. |
| 11:18.37 | ZorbaTHut | taroven, not accurate for cats and bears! :D |
| 11:18.40 | Taroven | HAI MARROWGAR! |
| 11:18.42 | nevcairiel | I thought we were talking about stopping mobs from going through walls |
| 11:18.48 | DWSR | Taroven: Or every dragon boss ever. |
| 11:18.50 | theorbtwo | They are reasonably accurate for mobs too, or they wouldn't get stuck in trees, they'd walk right back out again. |
| 11:19.00 | zenzio | Supremus was interesting |
| 11:19.12 | theorbtwo | What they need to do is respawn mobs that get stuck in trees somewhere else. |
| 11:19.14 | DWSR | theorbtwo: So you're saying that instead it's the object collision boxes that are bad? |
| 11:19.34 | DWSR | Taroven: Yeah, Marrowgar's a good example. Sometimes you can hit that fucker and be not even close. |
| 11:19.38 | theorbtwo | I expect, actually, it's the slightly-randomiszed-placement that's bad. |
| 11:19.41 | DWSR | Like, halfway across the room. |
| 11:19.53 | theorbtwo | That is, it's randomly placing things inside of trees, and then they stay there. |
| 11:19.55 | Taroven | I'd like to believe the object collision boxes aren't too horrid, considering some of the maneuvers I've pulled off... |
| 11:20.04 | olafski | I don't think fixing the clipping would solve the weekly exploit.. you can do it with a warlock teleporting out of the room |
| 11:20.19 | DWSR | ZorbaTHut: No, we're trying to stop stuff like mobs clipping through doors and trees. |
| 11:20.23 | nevcairiel | that should be fixed anyway, warlocks should need los for teleporting :P |
| 11:20.26 | DWSR | No. |
| 11:20.33 | DWSR | olafski: Yeah, that's an easy fix though |
| 11:21.07 | Taroven | DWSR: Know that ring around the center of the room? If he's dead center, you have to be at the edge of that ring as a Hunter to be able to shoot him... and you'll prolly need to scoot a lot even then |
| 11:21.18 | DWSR | olafski: Just do what they did with the Harvester's Room in Naxx. The portal gets removed when the encounter starts. |
| 11:21.20 | Taroven | It's atrocious |
| 11:21.24 | theorbtwo | Anybody have a link to the original issue? I know the stuck-in-a-tree, I don't know the weekly thing you seem to be talking about. |
| 11:21.39 | DWSR | theorbtwo: It's not an issue, per se. |
| 11:21.42 | DWSR | theorbtwo: It's an exploit. |
| 11:21.56 | theorbtwo | Well, an exploit is somebody taking advantage of an issue. |
| 11:21.58 | DWSR | theorbtwo: You can tank Festergut (and Rotface) in such a way as they move outside of the room and reset themselves. |
| 11:22.00 | Taroven | theorbtwo: Festergut+Rotface weekly random in ICC |
| 11:22.16 | DWSR | and by outside the room I mean walk through the fucking door. |
| 11:22.23 | DWSR | Obviously the collision code is there for player models. |
| 11:22.30 | DWSR | Since you yourself can't walk through the fucking thing. |
| 11:22.31 | Taroven | Or, to add to that, have a Paladin outside the room use Righteous Defense on a tank within range, same thing but a little safer. |
| 11:23.20 | DWSR | However you do it. |
| 11:23.27 | theorbtwo | Ah. Probably, to be cheap, they only clip mobs against static geometry, rather then dynamic stuff like doors. |
| 11:23.36 | DWSR | theorbtwo: Of course. |
| 11:23.42 | DWSR | Which is flawed logic. |
| 11:23.55 | DWSR | It's pretty easy to get a mob through a wall now. |
| 11:24.08 | DWSR | Since they changed the positioning logic for mobs. |
| 11:24.17 | DWSR | By the way, was that shit ever on purpose? |
| 11:24.22 | DWSR | s/ever// |
| 11:24.31 | Taroven | The game is also highly aware of player vs mob position and pathing, btw... when that pally hits the taunt button, the boss vanishes quicker than Rogue Meets Pyroblast. |
| 11:24.32 | ZorbaTHut | at one point they mentioned it wasn't |
| 11:24.46 | DWSR | ZorbaTHut: Well, good thing they fixed it then. |
| 11:24.49 | ZorbaTHut | but they don't seem to have, y'know, fixed it |
| 11:24.53 | DWSR | yeap. |
| 11:25.05 | ZorbaTHut | in related news, vanish is now working as intended |
| 11:25.19 | DWSR | You just about made energy drink come out my nose. |
| 11:25.21 | DWSR | Bastard. |
| 11:25.39 | Taroven | ZorbaTHut: LIES AND SLANDER |
| 11:25.54 | ZorbaTHut | reminds me of my favorite fuck-off-and-stop-bothering-me bug report response |
| 11:25.58 | ZorbaTHut | "functions as implemented" |
| 11:26.02 | Taroven | XD |
| 11:26.34 | DWSR | rofl |
| 11:26.51 | Taroven | I'm amazed I've never seen or thought of that quotable. |
| 11:26.52 | DWSR | Working as intended is another personal favourite. |
| 11:27.18 | Taroven | Yet so overdone. |
| 11:27.53 | DWSR | Can't argue with a classic. |
| 11:27.55 | DWSR | at any rate. |
| 11:28.00 | zenzio | you can't call it overdone |
| 11:28.08 | zenzio | it's an expression you can't really misinterpret |
| 11:28.10 | Taroven | Point well taken. |
| 11:28.12 | DWSR | I'm so close to being expertise softcapped. |
| 11:29.08 | Taroven | For parry? That's a lotta expertise. |
| 11:29.20 | Taroven | Or you talking about the 26 for dodge? |
| 11:29.22 | nevcairiel | softcap is dodge, hardcap is parry |
| 11:29.35 | nevcairiel | at least thats how people talk about it |
| 11:29.44 | Taroven | 7:30am, not differentiating properly =P |
| 11:30.01 | nevcairiel | no dps should ever do the hardcap, anyway =P |
| 11:30.11 | Taroven | No tank should bother. |
| 11:30.21 | ZorbaTHut | at least it's somewhat more excusable for tanks, but in general, yeah |
| 11:30.26 | Taroven | Yeah. |
| 11:30.31 | nevcairiel | at least its not totally worthless as tank over the softcap |
| 11:30.35 | Taroven | Great threat stat till softcap. |
| 11:30.44 | Taroven | After softcap, still not bad at all. |
| 11:30.51 | Taroven | But honestly, gief moar AP. |
| 11:30.57 | Taroven | Or some crit. |
| 11:31.02 | Taroven | Dear god I loves me some crit. |
| 11:31.23 | ZorbaTHut | for tanks? |
| 11:31.29 | ZorbaTHut | are you a bear or something? |
| 11:31.29 | Taroven | Hells yes. |
| 11:31.33 | Taroven | Warrior. |
| 11:31.33 | olafski | GC: Good news, everyone! We lowered the cooldown of Shield Wall to 5 sec and balanced assuming you hit it every 5 sec. <--- :D |
| 11:31.43 | DWSR | olafski: |
| 11:31.44 | Taroven | With all of 7.8% crit when the planets align. |
| 11:31.44 | DWSR | ? |
| 11:31.52 | olafski | dwsr: I took that out of context.. it sounded funny |
| 11:31.56 | zenzio | I still dislike the low cooldown on Shield Wall |
| 11:31.57 | ZorbaTHut | hah |
| 11:31.59 | olafski | mmo-champion has the full story :P |
| 11:32.00 | nevcairiel | i think my warrior even has like 9% crit or something |
| 11:32.02 | zenzio | it felt more valuable when it was 30-minute |
| 11:32.03 | ZorbaTHut | well, you don't need crit as a warrior tank :) |
| 11:32.05 | nevcairiel | not sure from what |
| 11:32.12 | DWSR | Taroven: Yeah, when I get expertise capped on my DK, next thing I'm getting me is more stamina. |
| 11:32.16 | Taroven | I have a 5 minute shield wall cooldown, dunno what crack you're smokin'. |
| 11:32.18 | olafski | and bear tanks have enough crit without actually getting crit rating :P |
| 11:32.31 | nevcairiel | thats simple for bears |
| 11:32.34 | nevcairiel | you wear dps leather anyway |
| 11:32.35 | DWSR | lol @ 9% chance to crit on my DK |
| 11:32.35 | olafski | yeah |
| 11:32.48 | theorbtwo | Heh, my pally has like 20% crit. (Or did, when I last logged her in, which was several patches ago...) |
| 11:32.49 | olafski | my bear has like 40% crit and is not wearing great gear |
| 11:33.03 | olafski | I think it's actually more crit than dodge, unbuffed |
| 11:33.07 | nevcairiel | crit also gives your avoidance, fwiw :) |
| 11:33.08 | Taroven | ZorbaTHut: Lots of baked in threat, yeah, but it's frustrating to have Blizz say "You have plenty of sustained threat via deep wounds!" and not see a crit for 30 seconds because of that single-digit number. |
| 11:33.33 | ZorbaTHut | true |
| 11:33.33 | nevcairiel | you have talents that boost your crit of abilities, its not *that* bad |
| 11:33.45 | ZorbaTHut | also crit for bears is basically block ;) |
| 11:33.48 | olafski | didn't crit give mitigation? |
| 11:33.53 | olafski | so not avoidance =) |
| 11:33.56 | nevcairiel | all the same |
| 11:34.05 | ZorbaTHut | olafski, it's avoidance, in the sense that it's unpredictable mitigation |
| 11:34.09 | olafski | hmm |
| 11:34.19 | nevcairiel | mitigation is armor for me |
| 11:34.21 | ZorbaTHut | the way the terms are used, mitigation is "reliable", avoidance is "unreliable" |
| 11:34.25 | olafski | I always assumed avoidance means "no damage" whereas mitigation is "some of the damage" |
| 11:34.28 | olafski | ah |
| 11:34.29 | Taroven | I've got +15% on everything but Revenge, so it's something like 30% crit on everything that matters in a raid setting, but keeping Deep Wounds up still requires atrocious amounts of luck. |
| 11:34.30 | nevcairiel | dmg that just goes away predictable |
| 11:34.35 | olafski | mm nice, my warrior is at 8.22% crit :P |
| 11:34.37 | Taroven | And it still only ticks for around 90. |
| 11:34.39 | ZorbaTHut | but I agree that the terms are kind of ambiguous when it comes to block |
| 11:34.47 | olafski | have to agree deep wounds doesn't do a lot with such low crit |
| 11:34.52 | ZorbaTHut | (in fairness, right now, block and savage defense can be more accurately defined as "crappy") |
| 11:35.07 | nevcairiel | block isnt that bad |
| 11:35.19 | nevcairiel | neither is savage defense |
| 11:35.24 | nevcairiel | sure, you can't really predict it |
| 11:35.26 | ZorbaTHut | nev, it's better than not having it, but that's about the best you can say |
| 11:35.30 | nevcairiel | but it does remove alot of dmg |
| 11:35.32 | olafski | taroven: where do you get +15% on shield slam/devastate? :$ |
| 11:35.40 | Taroven | Sec, lemme find the talents |
| 11:35.41 | ZorbaTHut | it doesn't scale worth talking about (cataclysm will be far sexier in this regard) |
| 11:35.51 | olafski | I only see Incite and possibly Cruelty |
| 11:36.04 | olafski | though cruelty is included in the number on the character sheet I guess |
| 11:36.14 | Taroven | Devastate = Sword and Board, +5%/point |
| 11:36.26 | nevcairiel | sword an board, yeah |
| 11:36.28 | ZorbaTHut | shield slam is Critical Block |
| 11:36.34 | Taroven | ^ |
| 11:36.36 | ZorbaTHut | +5%/point also |
| 11:36.44 | olafski | oh yeah :$ okay |
| 11:36.48 | Taroven | So yeah |
| 11:36.52 | nevcairiel | critical block is a nice talent, anyway |
| 11:37.02 | ZorbaTHut | critical block is quite good |
| 11:37.09 | olafski | btw, is deep wounds 48% of the actual weapon damage? or the damage listed in the character sheet under "melee"? |
| 11:37.14 | ZorbaTHut | it's a talent that I really hope they remove in Cataclysm |
| 11:37.15 | Taroven | +15% on Dev, SS, HS, Cleave, and Thunder Clap |
| 11:37.42 | nevcairiel | ZorbaTHut: assuming that blocking is being redone, i would assume so |
| 11:38.13 | nevcairiel | I'm still not sure what to do in cataclysm |
| 11:38.13 | Taroven | olafski: Well, Deep Wounds in a 10man with a walking totem set (our DK tank uses a blood/frost build with just about every available raidbuff, it's awesome) does 88 damage for me for a single crit. |
| 11:38.22 | nevcairiel | level one of my 80s up .. get a new char right away |
| 11:38.40 | Taroven | I've got about 4k unbuffed AP and the 251 tanking mace, so... |
| 11:38.44 | Taroven | That's not much. |
| 11:39.01 | olafski | taroven: 88 over 6 seconds or 88 per tick? |
| 11:39.09 | Taroven | Per tick. Not sure if it includes Trauma. |
| 11:39.14 | olafski | I wonder why I still have deep wounds tbh :P might as well just get Cruelty instead |
| 11:39.24 | ZorbaTHut | deep wounds is much better than cruelty |
| 11:39.29 | Taroven | ^ |
| 11:39.35 | ZorbaTHut | there's a reason it's mandatory in every warrior spec. |
| 11:39.53 | DWSR | Taroven: If he's got both IIT and Abomination's Might, he's gotta be doing some SHIT DPS. |
| 11:39.53 | Taroven | I wouldn't call it mandatory for tanking whatsoever. |
| 11:40.09 | ZorbaTHut | it's a *very* large source of threat, and honestly there aren't many better options |
| 11:40.39 | ZorbaTHut | http://www.wowpopular.com/Protection/Talents/Warrior <-- look how far you have to go down to avoid a 15/*/* build |
| 11:40.48 | Taroven | http://wow-heroes.com/index.php?zone=us&server=Boulderfist&name=morphemus |
| 11:41.19 | olafski | ah, my deep wounds hits for 62 per tick |
| 11:41.27 | ZorbaTHut | (and, c'mon, shield spec? you're replacing deep wounds with goddamn shield spec?) |
| 11:41.38 | Taroven | I used 8/11/52 for quite a while. |
| 11:42.08 | Taroven | And I'm guilty of keeping Shield Spec... I like being invincible in heroics, dammit. |
| 11:42.24 | ZorbaTHut | it's not like shield spec really improves that by much :) |
| 11:42.29 | DWSR | Taroven: Those are both horrid specs. |
| 11:42.32 | ZorbaTHut | I mean, it's a few percentage points of block and a bit extra raid |
| 11:42.36 | ZorbaTHut | er, rage |
| 11:42.38 | Taroven | Me = http://wow-heroes.com/index.php?zone=us&server=Boulderfist&name=Saryai |
| 11:43.23 | DWSR | http://wow-heroes.com/index.php?zone=us&server=Emerald%20Dream&name=Arelin |
| 11:43.31 | Taroven | DWSR: The one he's in works quite well. Never has threat issues and is considerably less squishy than every other DK tank I've ever healed. |
| 11:43.41 | DWSR | Taroven: Yeah, blood does that. |
| 11:43.41 | ZorbaTHut | my character's old and has an out-of-date spec so I'm not linking it :P |
| 11:43.56 | Taroven | The ONLY problem with it is that he lacks a little on the extra aoe threat due to lacking Heart Strike. |
| 11:44.08 | olafski | my character tanks with a 2h in frost spec so it wins clearly |
| 11:44.14 | Taroven | lawl. |
| 11:44.25 | DWSR | olafski: 2h frost spec is lose when you can DW frost instead. |
| 11:44.28 | ZorbaTHut | my character tanks in leather |
| 11:44.32 | ZorbaTHut | and he's a death knight |
| 11:44.39 | DWSR | Sorry, but DW > 2H. |
| 11:44.42 | olafski | dwsr: replaced your fast tank weapons yet? byebye then =) |
| 11:44.44 | Wobin | DW frost is -fun- |
| 11:44.50 | DWSR | olafski: Yes. |
| 11:44.54 | DWSR | Look at my armory. |
| 11:44.58 | DWSR | Both 2.60 speed maces. |
| 11:45.02 | DWSR | well. |
| 11:45.04 | DWSR | axe/mace. |
| 11:45.07 | nevcairiel | I loved unholy tanking in 3.0 until they broke it =( |
| 11:45.07 | olafski | gg |
| 11:45.54 | ZorbaTHut | is unholy good for anything anymore? |
| 11:46.14 | olafski | dw frost might work but if I don't take the dw talents I don't see much wrong with 2h.. not to mention I don't have access to anything over 232 for one handers, but I do have a 251 twohander |
| 11:46.32 | Taroven | But honestly. The entire reason Morph uses that screwed spec is because A) We NEVER have shammies dropping melee totems (due to either never having more than one shammy, usually), B) because we don't have DPS dks (amazingly...), and C) He really doesn't need the extra threat and, like I said, he takes an amazingly low amount of damage (or just heals himself for incredible amounts due to weapon+talents and using both very well). |
| 11:46.34 | olafski | blood might still be better but meh.. we've been here before :P |
| 11:46.37 | DWSR | ZorbaTHut: Yes. |
| 11:47.01 | nevcairiel | I like blood on my DK |
| 11:47.05 | nevcairiel | its so damn *simple* to play |
| 11:47.08 | olafski | I like blood for dps |
| 11:47.20 | olafski | I dps about once a month so I have a blood spec for that |
| 11:47.25 | DWSR | olafski: There's nothing wrong with 2h frost. |
| 11:47.27 | Taroven | When we random through heroics and I'm on my priest, I just go shadow and patch him up every so often... he can solo just about everything. |
| 11:47.30 | DWSR | It's just that DW is much cooler. |
| 11:47.32 | DWSR | And actually better. |
| 11:47.39 | ZorbaTHut | I'm using Blood on my DK largely because I enjoy using a gigantic Outland hammer with three Wrath epic gems |
| 11:47.42 | olafski | a rather suboptimal one at that since I focused my blood spec on survival instead of damage ;) |
| 11:47.57 | nevcairiel | as dps? :d |
| 11:48.00 | ZorbaTHut | why yes, this Outland hammer has something like 90 strength on it, why do you ask |
| 11:48.01 | olafski | yes |
| 11:48.11 | nevcairiel | !item outland hammer |
| 11:48.12 | Adys | nevcairiel: item 'outland hammer' not found |
| 11:48.19 | ZorbaTHut | I can dig up the actual item if you want |
| 11:48.23 | nevcairiel | !item outland |
| 11:48.23 | Adys | nevcairiel: Scale Boots of the Outlander - http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/47175/scale-boots-of-the-outlander/ |
| 11:48.49 | ZorbaTHut | http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24461 |
| 11:49.12 | nevcairiel | isnt that a bit low on .. anything? :d |
| 11:49.14 | nevcairiel | except sockets :p |
| 11:49.21 | ZorbaTHut | sure, and that's why it's amazing |
| 11:49.28 | ZorbaTHut | because Outland sockets are hilariously overpowered with Wrath gems |
| 11:49.37 | Kalroth | ZorbaTHut likes them gigantic |
| 11:49.45 | nevcairiel | but the weapon dps! |
| 11:49.47 | *** join/#wowuidev Kazie (~Kazie@port207.ds1-vg.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
| 11:49.56 | ZorbaTHut | nev, he's level 65, what else is he gonna use? :) |
| 11:50.01 | nevcairiel | oh |
| 11:50.10 | nevcairiel | an i thought you meant something like at max level :d |
| 11:50.13 | Kalroth | hahah |
| 11:50.14 | DWSR | ZorbaTHut: Yeah. |
| 11:50.17 | ZorbaTHut | ah, no ;) |
| 11:50.24 | DWSR | It's really silly that some quest greens have like 3 fucking sockets in them |
| 11:50.24 | olafski | a heirloom? |
| 11:50.32 | ZorbaTHut | olafski, can't runeforge 'em |
| 11:50.35 | DWSR | lol @ +18 strength each. |
| 11:50.42 | nevcairiel | yeah that annoyed me alot about my DK |
| 11:50.46 | nevcairiel | i had the heirloom axe |
| 11:50.51 | nevcairiel | but not runeforging .. fail |
| 11:50.58 | *** join/#wowuidev foxlit (~foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 11:50.59 | ZorbaTHut | plus I suspect the gemmed gear is actually better |
| 11:51.08 | nevcairiel | for a while, at least |
| 11:51.13 | olafski | oh you said 65.. I thought 68 |
| 11:51.17 | olafski | then this one might be better yeah :P |
| 11:51.19 | ZorbaTHut | since heirlooms are tuned as good blues, while socketed gear is vastly better than good blues |
| 11:51.20 | DWSR | nevcairiel: That's specifically why I didn't get an heirloom weap for my DK |
| 11:51.27 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, I dunno how long I'll keep it |
| 11:51.31 | ZorbaTHut | it's a tricky calculation at that point |
| 11:51.39 | olafski | at 68 I think the arcanite reaper will definitely be better |
| 11:51.43 | olafski | because it'll then be a northrend blue |
| 11:51.47 | nevcairiel | heirlooms are mostly awesome for the exp bonus, anyway |
| 11:51.59 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, but then I'm stuck with Crusader |
| 11:52.01 | olafski | 84 dps at lvl 67, 119 at lvl 68 |
| 11:52.06 | ZorbaTHut | instead of an actually good enchant |
| 11:52.14 | nevcairiel | dont have to use the weapon, it doesnt give the bonus =) |
| 11:52.17 | ZorbaTHut | and I kinda like 25 defense |
| 11:52.24 | olafski | yeah I guess 25 defense is nice :P |
| 11:52.35 | olafski | well, then you'll probably want that axe from the Last Rites quest =) |
| 11:52.38 | ZorbaTHut | the XP bonus is why I'm wearing leather ;) |
| 11:52.50 | nevcairiel | dont have the plate versions, eh? :) |
| 11:52.59 | nevcairiel | i leveld a warrior and DK, i just got the plate shit |
| 11:53.00 | ZorbaTHut | nope. though I should get 'em, I'm playing around with a paladin also |
| 11:53.19 | nevcairiel | should save some badged to get the leather shit for my rogue i want to elvel with cata |
| 11:53.38 | ZorbaTHut | eh, you could also wait for cataclysm heirlooms |
| 11:53.55 | nevcairiel | i wont have badges to waste until like a few month after, i bet |
| 11:54.12 | olafski | heirlooms were the first thing I bought when I hit 80 :P |
| 11:54.25 | nevcairiel | doubt the 20% exp in total will increase |
| 11:54.35 | nevcairiel | the wotlk heirlooms just will stop scaling at 80 |
| 11:54.36 | ZorbaTHut | I've got all the appropriate gear for my worgen hunter, except, again, using those same old beat-up leather heirlooms |
| 11:54.48 | *** join/#wowuidev Caleb| (~caleb@dsl4E5C0336.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 11:55.20 | olafski | I have a ton of heirlooms rotting in my bank.. not much left to use them on since I can't mail them cross-server |
| 11:56.59 | nevcairiel | i heard rogues start with dual-wield now already, yes? |
| 11:57.20 | DWSR | yep |
| 11:58.19 | olafski | give a rogue a heirloom sword and you can just sinister your way up to 50 |
| 11:58.30 | DWSR | sword/dagger. |
| 11:58.56 | ZorbaTHut | in fairness, since you're playing a rogue, that is then followed by sinistering up to 80 |
| 11:59.02 | olafski | true :P |
| 11:59.03 | DWSR | lol |
| 11:59.06 | olafski | I would usually take off like 40% of the mobs hp with my bow and then 1-2 sinisters to finish off.. works up to at least level 30 |
| 11:59.18 | olafski | the heirloom bow rocks :D |
| 11:59.39 | nevcairiel | dal'rend + heartseeker it is, then! |
| 11:59.40 | ZorbaTHut | woot revered shen'dralar |
| 11:59.56 | zenzio | only 21000 to go! |
| 12:00.22 | DWSR | nevcairiel: Yeah. |
| 12:00.32 | DWSR | That's how I leveled my rogue. |
| 12:00.35 | DWSR | Actually, I lied. |
| 12:00.38 | nevcairiel | heh |
| 12:00.39 | DWSR | I went Hemo |
| 12:00.44 | DWSR | Which was fucking fun |
| 12:00.46 | nevcairiel | wowhead has a slider now to change the item level |
| 12:00.50 | nevcairiel | on heirlooms |
| 12:00.52 | DWSR | yep |
| 12:00.58 | DWSR | I went Sub. |
| 12:01.05 | DWSR | Awesome for lower level stuff. |
| 12:01.10 | DWSR | Then when you get Hemo, it becomes awesome again |
| 12:01.22 | DWSR | Since you can usually 1 shot mobs, especially if you have double Crusader. |
| 12:01.26 | nevcairiel | could get the pvp dagger for a second one |
| 12:01.28 | ZorbaTHut | zenzio, only 18500 to go! ;) |
| 12:01.30 | DWSR | lol @ + 250 strength on a level 20 rogue. |
| 12:01.37 | DWSR | nevcairiel: Or two Heartseekers. |
| 12:01.52 | nevcairiel | oh yeah, its not unique |
| 12:01.58 | DWSR | noope |
| 12:02.02 | nevcairiel | i looked at the pvp items, they are unique-euipped |
| 12:02.05 | nevcairiel | +q |
| 12:02.11 | DWSR | nevcairiel: You want the PvE dagger. |
| 12:02.20 | DWSR | Both the pve and the pvp daggers are not unique equipped. |
| 12:02.22 | DWSR | iirc, anyway. |
| 12:02.30 | nevcairiel | the pvp one is |
| 12:02.37 | nevcairiel | oh no |
| 12:02.39 | nevcairiel | only the sword is |
| 12:02.48 | DWSR | ;) |
| 12:02.50 | nevcairiel | weird |
| 12:04.02 | DWSR | Oh, interesting. |
| 12:04.07 | DWSR | EJ is updated the DW tanking build for DKs. :D |
| 12:05.03 | DWSR | I is teh happiez. |
| 12:05.13 | DWSR | We'll see what they change. |
| 12:06.14 | ZorbaTHut | sometimes I wonder if Blizz class designers are sitting around saying "goddamn, why have they not noticed that amazing dualwield blood spec" or similar things |
| 12:06.40 | ZorbaTHut | like, how often is the publicly known spec worse than the internal spec, how often is it better, and how often is it actually the same |
| 12:06.41 | Kalroth | uhh |
| 12:07.01 | DWSR | ZorbaTHut: Well, I doubt that they say that in particular. |
| 12:07.06 | DWSR | Since you can't fucking DW in Blood. |
| 12:07.09 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, that exact one seems unlikely ;) |
| 12:07.15 | DWSR | However. |
| 12:07.23 | ZorbaTHut | but you get the idea - some much better spec that is vastly different from the accepted standards |
| 12:07.42 | DWSR | ZorbaTHut: I would imagine that they're not usually far off. |
| 12:07.48 | theorbtwo | Donno. I'd be chortling that I managed to pull one over on the community for so long. |
| 12:07.59 | nevcairiel | I doubt they design a tree around the idea of a "cutting edge" spec |
| 12:08.04 | theorbtwo | I mean, unless it's changes not mentioned in patch notes, which is kind of cheating. |
| 12:08.08 | Kalroth | Well to make people switch it has to be [obviously] better, otherwise its not worth the hassle |
| 12:08.17 | ZorbaTHut | nev, I would personally be shocked if they didn't sit down and figure out what the best specs were |
| 12:08.31 | nevcairiel | sure, afterwards |
| 12:08.34 | DWSR | ^^ |
| 12:08.42 | *** join/#wowuidev harl (harl@dslb-088-077-196-189.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 12:08.43 | ZorbaTHut | more likely, during |
| 12:08.54 | nevcairiel | but their philosophy is to allow choice in the builds |
| 12:08.59 | theorbtwo | I'd have thought during. |
| 12:09.00 | Kalroth | they just go to http://www.wowpopular.com/Talents/ and copy paste that in an internal email to their bosses |
| 12:09.05 | nevcairiel | and not force you onto a cutting edge spec |
| 12:09.20 | DWSR | I would be amazed if the internal specs were >5% better than the spec the community comes up with. |
| 12:09.45 | DWSR | with better being somewhat subjective for healing and tanking,. |
| 12:09.50 | theorbtwo | I'd have expected that they try to figure out a number of specs that are more or less equally good, and try to figure out how to make all of them work. |
| 12:09.57 | nevcairiel | anyway builds with 4.0 will be interesting |
| 12:10.08 | nevcairiel | less required talents |
| 12:10.11 | nevcairiel | more fun talents |
| 12:10.16 | DWSR | I'm happy that they're finally fucking buffing DW again |
| 12:10.36 | Kalroth | The community is generally bloody good at figuring specs out, I dont think Blizzard would be silly enough to think that there is some "hidden" spec that noone bothered trying |
| 12:10.58 | DWSR | mhm |
| 12:11.07 | Bruners | untill 4.0.1 hits and everything is nerfed |
| 12:11.10 | DWSR | I would imagine that the only real discrepancies come from the testing of co-efficients and the like. |
| 12:11.23 | DWSR | Still, though |
| 12:11.27 | DWSR | The community is good. |
| 12:11.44 | DWSR | Is 3.3.3 next maint cycle or no? |
| 12:12.04 | ZorbaTHut | I wish WoW allowed easy arbitrary aspect ratios |
| 12:12.47 | ZorbaTHut | I want a weird narrow horizontal window right now |
| 12:12.48 | DWSR | ZorbaTHut: You mean for viewporting? |
| 12:13.08 | DWSR | also, it does allow for arbitrary ARs. |
| 12:13.11 | DWSR | Just resize the windo |
| 12:13.12 | DWSR | window* |
| 12:13.19 | Kalroth | Even if the community weren't good it'd be something like; okay so there's at least 600-900k people playing a class - odds of the most common spec being the best/smart one is pretty high |
| 12:13.23 | theorbtwo | Have they said they are mucking with the graphics engine for 4.0? |
| 12:13.38 | DWSR | I don't know, but I hope to god YES. |
| 12:13.47 | DWSR | Because, let's face it. |
| 12:13.51 | DWSR | shit's weak. |
| 12:14.04 | theorbtwo | Yes. |
| 12:14.26 | theorbtwo | OTOH, if they haven't said anything, I'd bet they aren't planning on doing much with it. |
| 12:14.38 | foxlit | Water. |
| 12:15.00 | ZorbaTHut | water, mostly, yeah. |
| 12:15.26 | Kalroth | Blizzard's Cat - they both have and haven't upgraded the graphics engine, we wont find out until it hits PTR! |
| 12:15.41 | DWSR | Yeah. |
| 12:15.47 | DWSR | fixing Water's a good idea. |
| 12:15.51 | DWSR | I mean, shit's weak. |
| 12:15.55 | DWSR | But, there's a lot of other shit that's weak too |
| 12:16.01 | zenzio | Blizzard got tired of everyone whining about the graphics, so in 4.0 we're going to get an ncurses-based UI |
| 12:16.03 | DWSR | Like, you know, the 90 bazillion textures in Dalaran. |
| 12:16.11 | DWSR | Zenzio: It'd be an improvement, imo. |
| 12:17.02 | Kalroth | 1) kill all mounts in cities, both ground and flying - fuck mounts (see already saved a lot of textures here!) |
| 12:17.19 | DWSR | Kalroth: Yeah. |
| 12:17.28 | DWSR | Wouldn't mind seeing Dominion over Acherus in all cities. |
| 12:17.44 | Kalroth | 2) make a dalaran texture cache well all non-wotlk textures are replaced by a happy smiley texture |
| 12:17.46 | foxlit | Meh, mounts are fun. |
| 12:17.47 | DWSR | however, it's just the way that they fucking made the place. |
| 12:17.48 | Kalroth | where all* |
| 12:18.03 | Kalroth | 3) kill all vanity pets in cities, ALL of them |
| 12:18.08 | foxlit | Personally, I think dalaran has clipping issues. |
| 12:18.17 | DWSR | Dalaran has...issues. |
| 12:18.20 | foxlit | The sewers tend to perform much better than the main level. |
| 12:18.35 | Kalroth | Dalaran is fine, its the landscape around it that's clipping like hell |
| 12:18.37 | DWSR | http://ptr.wowhead.com/?patchnotes=3.3.3-ptr <-- hurray DW tanking buff. |
| 12:20.20 | *** join/#wowuidev boshi23 (~chris@c-68-36-37-83.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 12:20.43 | Bruners | Shatrath was fine, dalaran was to much |
| 12:21.01 | DWSR | foxlit: It seems to me like we have been receiving "graphical upgrades" that don't do anything. |
| 12:21.24 | DWSR | Such as the fact that old world, Outland, and Northrend all look pretty similar from a texture quality standpoint, yet perform vastly differently. |
| 12:21.50 | foxlit | Hey, Northrend does tend to look better. |
| 12:21.51 | Bruners | DWSR: flying mounts = more crap to load |
| 12:21.55 | foxlit | Especially around trees. |
| 12:22.01 | DWSR | It has nothing to do with that. |
| 12:22.26 | DWSR | Bruners: Your farclip controls how much you load. |
| 12:22.30 | DWSR | If it's low enough, you fly through fod. |
| 12:22.38 | DWSR | I call total bullshit on the flying = texture load. |
| 12:22.45 | DWSR | foxlit: Meh. |
| 12:22.52 | DWSR | foxlit: I haven't seen it, but I don't have the shadows turned up. |
| 12:23.36 | nevcairiel | For you its just "normal", but compare a forest in northrend to a forest in classic world |
| 12:23.47 | Bruners | DWSR: also the old world still use the new engine, if you try to load the game with the old one you will see a huge difference |
| 12:24.06 | DWSR | nevcairiel: Ok, the trees look a little better. |
| 12:24.16 | DWSR | nevcairiel: Additional polygon count on newer models, so what? |
| 12:24.27 | nevcairiel | not only trees, also textures on the ground, any everywhere |
| 12:24.34 | nevcairiel | s/any/and/ |
| 12:24.39 | DWSR | nevcairiel: My point is that you don't see it. |
| 12:24.47 | DWSR | You don't go "holy shit this looks a lot better" |
| 12:24.48 | nevcairiel | in a comparison, you do |
| 12:25.01 | DWSR | You go "Oh, the trees look a little more tree like" and moveon. |
| 12:25.14 | Bruners | DWSR: flying mounts means more advanced textures, since everything has to look good from all directions |
| 12:25.15 | nevcairiel | Its supposed to look like it looks, its not supposed to look like the real world |
| 12:25.17 | nevcairiel | its a comic game |
| 12:25.26 | DWSR | nevcairiel: Of course. |
| 12:25.51 | nevcairiel | cataclysm will bring us better water |
| 12:25.53 | DWSR | nevcairiel: But upping the quality of the animation wouldn't kill anyone. |
| 12:26.01 | nevcairiel | short of the bad water, the graphics quality is fine |
| 12:26.03 | DWSR | s/animation/visual effects/ |
| 12:26.12 | DWSR | nevcairiel: It's not, really. |
| 12:26.24 | cbreak | wow runs slow enough already |
| 12:26.33 | DWSR | ^^ This is another huge gripe. |
| 12:26.33 | nevcairiel | It *is* fine |
| 12:26.45 | nevcairiel | If you want more effects, go play aion with its ugly anime like characters |
| 12:26.47 | DWSR | Why the fuck does the game run as slowly as it does for the quality we're getting? |
| 12:26.58 | Bruners | the problem comes when you want to do a raid with 25 people splashing out spells |
| 12:27.05 | nevcairiel | It just wouldnt fit into the design |
| 12:27.26 | *** join/#wowuidev pompy (~Mike@c-68-32-134-121.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 12:27.33 | DWSR | nevcairiel: imo, 1 of 2 things would fix the problem. |
| 12:27.57 | DWSR | a) optimize the fucking engine so that I get what I'm paying for, i.e. the game performs much better and the graphical quality doesn't change. |
| 12:28.29 | DWSR | b) Up the graphical quality massively so that at least when I'm at stillframe FPS, it'll LOOK good. |
| 12:28.33 | Taroven | DWSR: Lots of reasons, but it boils down to tacking miles of code onto a game engine which is being forced to do too much already. |
| 12:28.43 | nevcairiel | you obviously miss the point that b) would include a) first :p |
| 12:28.51 | DWSR | nevcairiel: Not neccessarily, but most likely. |
| 12:29.01 | DWSR | Notice I allowed for a performance degradation in b. |
| 12:29.13 | nevcairiel | which is not acceptable by blizzard |
| 12:29.19 | DWSR | nevcairiel: So do a. |
| 12:29.20 | DWSR | ;) |
| 12:29.21 | Wobin | holy crap |
| 12:29.26 | Wobin | Sledge Hockey is AWESOME |
| 12:29.30 | DWSR | yes it is. |
| 12:29.32 | nevcairiel | a gives you no "real" gain |
| 12:29.38 | Bruners | if they are going to improve their engine as much as i think you want them to, they might just as well do WoW2 |
| 12:29.40 | DWSR | nevcairiel: It does, because it allows you to do b. |
| 12:29.46 | nevcairiel | but they wont |
| 12:29.50 | nevcairiel | the graphics are fine |
| 12:29.55 | Wobin | It has all the coolness factor of normal hockey. |
| 12:29.59 | Wobin | But on FUCKING SLEDGES |
| 12:30.00 | DWSR | But obviously they will, as we've seen improvements since vanilla. |
| 12:30.02 | Taroven | The least they could give us is decent bumpmapping, HDR, and ambient occlusion... |
| 12:30.11 | nevcairiel | They do small improvements to special factors |
| 12:30.16 | DWSR | Taroven: I'd like it if my game didn't look like half-life 1 first. |
| 12:30.18 | Bruners | they could make a native linux client |
| 12:30.20 | cbreak | I want improvements to framerate |
| 12:30.26 | DWSR | Bruners: That'll *never* happen. |
| 12:30.26 | Taroven | DWSR: Heh, yeah. |
| 12:30.33 | DWSR | cbreak: See suggestion a). |
| 12:30.37 | nevcairiel | DWSR: you obviously havent played half-life 1 for a while |
| 12:30.43 | cbreak | I only get 10 or 20 fps while fighting in ICC |
| 12:30.57 | DWSR | cbreak: You have spell detail turned right off? |
| 12:30.59 | cbreak | many years ago I had over 2 fps when fighting with 40 people in molten core |
| 12:30.59 | DWSR | s/off/down/ |
| 12:31.03 | cbreak | hmm... |
| 12:31.12 | cbreak | I suppose I could turn down the quality... |
| 12:31.17 | cbreak | :/ |
| 12:31.19 | foxlit | But. But! |
| 12:31.21 | DWSR | spell detail, dynamic shadows are the biggest framerate killers. |
| 12:31.24 | Taroven | DWSR: btw, speaking of HDR and ambient occlusion, there's an alternate DX9 dll floating around that adds those to wow... mind you, it's tacked in functionality, but it doesn't do anything to the framerate and with a little tweaking looks amazing. |
| 12:31.31 | foxlit | How will you know not to stand in the fire with minimal spell detail, then? |
| 12:31.36 | DWSR | Taroven: Linkeh? |
| 12:31.39 | DWSR | foxlit: DBM yells at you |
| 12:31.44 | DWSR | And your health bar starts going down |
| 12:31.45 | Taroven | I'll do better and give a dropbox, sec |
| 12:31.50 | DWSR | If you can't notice either of the above, you're dead. |
| 12:31.51 | cbreak | I use OpenGL, maybe that part is less optimized |
| 12:31.52 | foxlit | DWSR: that does not always work. |
| 12:32.09 | foxlit | Some stand-in-this-crap-and-die are really just "die," not "wallow in misery for a while" |
| 12:32.09 | nevcairiel | My OpenGL is actually faster then DX |
| 12:32.10 | DWSR | foxlit: Also, it's not like there's *no* fire. |
| 12:32.12 | DWSR | There's just less. |
| 12:32.13 | Bruners | DWSR: you shouldn't be using DBM |
| 12:32.13 | nevcairiel | but i blame nvidia for that |
| 12:32.26 | DWSR | Bruners: And why not? |
| 12:32.32 | DWSR | Timers are great useful. |
| 12:32.33 | Taroven | DWSR: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1999297/wowHDR.zip |
| 12:32.34 | Bruners | nevcairiel: but you don't have hardware cursor with gl |
| 12:32.46 | Bruners | DWSR: no point having a mod play the game for you |
| 12:32.53 | DWSR | It's not playing the game for me. |
| 12:32.55 | Taroven | DWSR: Drop the files into your WoW directory alongside the executables, shouldn't be overwriting anything |
| 12:32.56 | DWSR | It's giving me timers. |
| 12:33.02 | Taroven | Use shift-F12 to toggle |
| 12:33.07 | DWSR | Shift+F12? |
| 12:33.09 | DWSR | okies. |
| 12:33.11 | Taroven | Yep |
| 12:33.21 | foxlit | and post some screenshots |
| 12:33.27 | Bruners | DWSR: it is, the day DBM has wrong timers you wipe badly and come here to whine about the timers being wrong instead of learning the fights |
| 12:33.33 | DWSR | Bruners: There is nothing wrong with boss mods, blizzard has in fact added them to the game. |
| 12:33.53 | DWSR | Bruners: I'm not a mindless zombie. Stop trying to imply that I am. |
| 12:34.04 | cbreak | I don't use boss mods since years |
| 12:34.04 | Taroven | foxlit: One sec, got a before/after of the phoenix mount somewhere... |
| 12:34.10 | Bruners | DWSR: i'm not implying, i'm telling you that you are :D |
| 12:34.18 | cbreak | the game provides so many clues these days, they are just not needed in most cases |
| 12:34.18 | DWSR | Bruners: Fuck you too, ok? :) |
| 12:34.32 | DWSR | cbreak: No, they're not for people who are reasonably intelligent. |
| 12:34.45 | DWSR | Having advanced warning so that you can yell at the 24 other idiots in your raid, however, is invaluable. |
| 12:34.59 | cbreak | I don't use voice coms either... |
| 12:35.04 | cbreak | I like quiet raids :) |
| 12:35.26 | Taroven | foxlit: Nevermind... youtube will have to do. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-NMsGOMSU4 |
| 12:35.40 | DWSR | HOLY FUCK |
| 12:35.43 | DWSR | HOLY FUCKING CHRIST |
| 12:35.46 | DWSR | HOLY JESUS SHITFUCK |
| 12:35.48 | Taroven | XD |
| 12:35.54 | Taroven | Little change, big difference. |
| 12:35.55 | DWSR | Taroven: THE LOGIN SCREEN IS SEXY |
| 12:36.05 | Taroven | Hehe |
| 12:36.05 | DWSR | HOLY TITTYFUCK |
| 12:36.06 | Taroven | Got a priest? |
| 12:36.11 | DWSR | Nope. |
| 12:36.14 | DWSR | I haz DK. |
| 12:36.16 | Taroven | Level one. |
| 12:36.17 | DWSR | and lock |
| 12:36.18 | DWSR | lol |
| 12:36.20 | Taroven | And spam holy nova. |
| 12:36.20 | DWSR | Sec. |
| 12:36.28 | DWSR | I'll post before and after for just the login screen. |
| 12:36.33 | Wobin | where do we replace that dll? |
| 12:36.34 | Taroven | Holy nova spam with HDR IS FUCKING SEXY |
| 12:36.46 | krka | screenshot of login screen? |
| 12:36.48 | DWSR | JESUS SHITFUCK |
| 12:36.50 | Taroven | Wobin: Just drop it in your WoW directory next to the exe's |
| 12:36.51 | DWSR | krka: Second. |
| 12:37.01 | *** join/#wowuidev Kalroth (~kalroth@0x573f1066.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1101.hjnqu1.customer.tele.dk) |
| 12:37.11 | Taroven | DWSR: Wow screenshot won't work btw... use fraps or windows screeny |
| 12:37.25 | Taroven | windows screeny will only work if you run fullscreen windowed with wow in the background |
| 12:37.42 | Wobin | woah |
| 12:37.47 | Bruners | is there a way to block the new flash adds they have added inside flashvideos ? |
| 12:37.51 | DWSR | Taroven: Yes, I know. :P |
| 12:37.53 | Bruners | i ahte it so much |
| 12:37.55 | Taroven | God I wish, Bruners. |
| 12:38.14 | Bruners | the most annoying one is the farmville |
| 12:38.26 | cbreak | doesn't look that much better |
| 12:38.27 | Taroven | But yeah... that little mod made my fucking year. |
| 12:38.28 | foxlit | I don't get any <3 |
| 12:38.39 | DWSR | holy fuck. |
| 12:38.46 | cbreak | they just lower the dynamic range so you get bleeding |
| 12:38.50 | nevcairiel | eh that HDR hack is ugly |
| 12:39.03 | foxlit | MORE BLOOM! |
| 12:39.03 | nevcairiel | just overbrigts everything |
| 12:39.12 | Taroven | Depends, if you lower the settings a bit it's really not bad at all. |
| 12:39.18 | haste | it looks nice on the models in HL2e2! |
| 12:39.24 | Taroven | ie, what I linked to a minute ago has about half the bloom and looks great. |
| 12:39.25 | nevcairiel | i can get the same activating wide-gamut in my screen |
| 12:39.29 | DWSR | yeah, I'll probably have to turn down the gamma a bit. |
| 12:39.35 | DWSR | Taroven: Where can I tweak? |
| 12:39.42 | Taroven | enbseries.ini |
| 12:40.00 | DWSR | http://hdimage.org/images/stoaojvehn2m99q7ur73.png http://hdimage.org/images/ugg4evwxwcg5z5ri9y7c.png before, after. |
| 12:40.02 | cbreak | I was commenting on that youtube movie |
| 12:40.10 | Taroven | Lemme see if I can find the tweaking guide for it... there's one SOMEWHERE |
| 12:40.28 | cbreak | it just looks like they lowered the dynamic range to make bright parts overbleed |
| 12:40.49 | nevcairiel | fully lighted areas are just ridiciously overbright now |
| 12:40.52 | nevcairiel | its just fugly |
| 12:41.01 | DWSR | So turn it down |
| 12:41.11 | nevcairiel | s/down/off/ |
| 12:41.25 | Bruners | in other news, Ninja Assassin is awesome |
| 12:41.26 | nevcairiel | you cant force HDR with some dx hack |
| 12:41.28 | DWSR | Yeah, it's a bit bright by default. |
| 12:41.35 | DWSR | But it's not terribly bad. |
| 12:41.45 | nevcairiel | i can get the same with monitor settings |
| 12:41.49 | cbreak | I don't get why people call lowering the dynamic range of a picture "HDR" :) |
| 12:41.57 | Taroven | Bruners: Agree, good balance between cheesy non-CG and great CG. |
| 12:42.06 | Wobin | still can't get over Sledge Hockey |
| 12:42.28 | DWSR | cbreak: You mean colour compression a la 300? |
| 12:42.32 | Taroven | DWSR: Meh, can't find the guide |
| 12:42.34 | nevcairiel | slaps Wobin with a sledge |
| 12:42.55 | Wobin | nevcairiel, honestly! |
| 12:42.59 | Wobin | it's like normal hockey |
| 12:43.01 | Wobin | WITHOUT LEGS |
| 12:43.05 | DWSR | Makes my UI stand out a lot more. |
| 12:43.14 | DWSR | holy shit. |
| 12:43.14 | cbreak | I mean something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:StLouisArchMultExpToneMapped.jpg |
| 12:43.17 | DWSR | Let's try an instance. |
| 12:43.30 | Wobin | aiee |
| 12:43.35 | Wobin | quest pages have too much BLOOM |
| 12:43.43 | nevcairiel | everything has too much bloom |
| 12:43.45 | DWSR | Wobin: lol, I'm using Skinner. |
| 12:43.52 | DWSR | So yeah, UI's all black. |
| 12:43.57 | Taroven | DWSR: The BloomPowerX vars in enbseries.ini are what you're looking for to tone down the bloom a bit if you want... not sure what else you'd really want to adjust in there, I fracking love the non-bloom portions of that tweak |
| 12:44.01 | Wobin | http://screencast.com/t/NjVmYmFiN |
| 12:44.29 | DWSR | Nice Wobin, rofl. |
| 12:44.34 | Taroven | Wobin: You shoulda seen the defaults. |
| 12:44.43 | Taroven | I literally COULD NEVER READ ANYTHING. |
| 12:44.59 | cbreak | no one readds the quests anyway |
| 12:45.14 | nevcairiel | re-adds? |
| 12:46.32 | Kalroth | read-ds |
| 12:46.49 | Bruners | nintendo ds? |
| 12:47.04 | Kalroth | no digital surface |
| 12:47.12 | DWSR | yeah, Taroven. |
| 12:47.14 | DWSR | I'm in Nexus. |
| 12:47.15 | Trela | DD? |
| 12:47.18 | DWSR | And it's way too fucking bloomy in here. |
| 12:47.18 | Trela | gets confused. |
| 12:47.27 | nevcairiel | anyway, i still claimthat wow graphics are basically fine, old areas just need new textures and more polygons, which cataclysm will do .. and of course the water issue |
| 12:47.28 | Taroven | Yeah, looks about the same in ICC. |
| 12:47.41 | Taroven | I have to turn it off for Marrowgar. |
| 12:47.47 | Taroven | Like, it's blinding. |
| 12:48.06 | Bruners | will they (maby they already do) use DX10 ? |
| 12:48.07 | *** join/#wowuidev Ycarene (jporterf@24-116-56-41.cpe.cableone.net) |
| 12:48.09 | nevcairiel | i would be more interested in fixing the nvidia issue with the wow engine |
| 12:48.11 | Taroven | Really do need to find the patience to tweak that ini more... It has potential to look amazing no matter where. |
| 12:48.17 | Taroven | nvidia issue? |
| 12:48.21 | nevcairiel | Bruners: they dont, and doubtful they way |
| 12:48.22 | Taroven | You mean the overheating problem? |
| 12:48.26 | nevcairiel | no |
| 12:48.40 | Ycarene | Would a group of 20 be able to conquer icc25? |
| 12:48.45 | DWSR | yeah. |
| 12:48.47 | DWSR | WAY TOO MUCH BLOOM |
| 12:48.48 | Taroven | Ycarene, maybe. |
| 12:48.52 | cbreak | conquer as in enter? |
| 12:48.55 | nevcairiel | wow runs alot slower on nvidia cards then on a comparable ati card |
| 12:49.00 | DWSR | D&D looks like a FUCKING VOLCANO |
| 12:49.12 | nevcairiel | been happening since they added the 3d shit |
| 12:49.13 | Taroven | Enter yes, down trash yes... kill bosses... Marrowgar and that's prolly it. |
| 12:49.15 | Ycarene | I was thinking of creating a guild called "Truncated" and running understaffed raids. |
| 12:49.32 | Taroven | nev: Honestly I have to differ there. |
| 12:49.52 | nevcairiel | all tests on websites i found claim the same |
| 12:49.58 | foxlit | "[If] you want to go beat up on noobs, you're going to have go out and buy a new copy of StarCraft," |
| 12:50.00 | Taroven | I went from a Radeon HD4870 to a Geforce GTX260, same specs otherwise. |
| 12:50.11 | Taroven | WoW's framerate remained the exact same between cards. |
| 12:50.12 | Ycarene | 20 people in 25 mans, 8 people in 10 mans and 4 people in heroics. |
| 12:50.23 | nevcairiel | I have a gtx260 and a i7 cpu, and i can't even hover over a zone without going down to 30 fps |
| 12:50.24 | Bruners | Taroven: 60FPS? :P |
| 12:50.43 | nevcairiel | funny enough, if i switch to opengl ,its at constant 60fps (vsync) |
| 12:51.02 | Bruners | i doubt the WoW engine is using the new cards at full anyway |
| 12:51.04 | Taroven | Bruners: Round there when I'm out questing, bout 20-30 in Dal |
| 12:51.08 | Maldivia | Ycarene: yes, if you have exceptional gear, and perhaps way a few months till the ICC bonus has raise to something like +15 or +20%, then yeah, you can probably 20 man it |
| 12:51.21 | Taroven | My CPU is kinda lackluster. |
| 12:51.24 | nevcairiel | and everytime when an instance has a look onto the outside world |
| 12:51.26 | foxlit | Can't figure out what the bottleneck for wow is, really |
| 12:51.27 | nevcairiel | fps is *down* |
| 12:51.27 | Ycarene | nevcairiel - I think wow's d3d implementation is buggy to begin with, I have to run opengl since d3d crashes out in wine. |
| 12:51.32 | *** join/#wowuidev Lopeppeppy (~Lopeppepp@141.222.29.18) |
| 12:51.32 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Lopeppeppy] by ChanServ |
| 12:51.36 | nevcairiel | Ycarene: ...its wine |
| 12:51.46 | Bruners | foxlit: harddrive and memory |
| 12:51.56 | nevcairiel | i can actually play it in wine using d3d, but its sloooooooow |
| 12:51.58 | *** join/#wowuidev NiLon (nilon@unaffiliated/nilon) |
| 12:51.59 | Taroven | Ycarene: d3d + wine = pain. |
| 12:52.02 | foxlit | FSB, perhaps. |
| 12:52.08 | Ycarene | nevcairiel - true, but there's plenty of other applications that run fine in d3d that push it much harder than wow does. |
| 12:52.19 | Wobin | http://screencast.com/t/ZGUxMmZmNGYt |
| 12:52.31 | Adys | !api faction |
| 12:52.32 | lua_bot | Found 24 possible matches for 'faction'. Please be more specific |
| 12:52.42 | Adys | !api unitfaction |
| 12:52.45 | Kalroth | http://itnews.com.au/News/169862,employers-look-to-gaming-to-motivate-staff.aspx |
| 12:52.46 | Kalroth | Last year, Sheldon replaced the traditional grading system in two of his game design classes with a system that is based on experience points |
| 12:52.46 | lua_bot | UnitFactionGroup: Returns a unit's primary faction allegiance (http://wowprogramming.com/docs/api/UnitFactionGroup) |
| 12:52.48 | nevcairiel | with a i7 cpu and a 260gtx, it doesnt seem to be cpu bound anymore |
| 12:52.52 | Kalroth | time to farm some xp!! |
| 12:52.52 | nevcairiel | unless i read those cpu graphs wrong |
| 12:52.59 | Taroven | DWSR: Looks like you adjusted the ini a bit? |
| 12:53.04 | Adys | old Kalroth |
| 12:53.10 | foxlit | I wonder what they're doing to do with SC2 rating creep. |
| 12:53.18 | Maldivia | Ycarene: perhaps WoW just uses some parts of the api that others seldom use, so the wine implementation for that is more buggy |
| 12:53.18 | Kalroth | its from today! |
| 12:53.23 | Adys | ITS OLD |
| 12:53.26 | DWSR | nope. |
| 12:53.29 | foxlit | Since bonus points and a 1:1 win ratio will eventually propel everyone into high numbers |
| 12:53.30 | DWSR | Taroven: Those were the defaults. |
| 12:53.38 | nevcairiel | Maldivia: alot of wine devs play WoW, bet it wouldve been fixed |
| 12:53.44 | Taroven | DWSR: Correction, *my* defaults. =P |
| 12:53.51 | Taroven | The actual defaults were atrocious. |
| 12:53.55 | DWSR | ah |
| 12:54.05 | Adys | Ycarene: you do know wine d3d development depends a lot on what the devs play :P |
| 12:54.11 | DWSR | These ones are pretty bad too |
| 12:54.16 | Adys | tf2 gets the most attention |
| 12:54.16 | Taroven | Like, you'd be having trouble seeing the window textures there. |
| 12:54.21 | Ycarene | adys - true |
| 12:54.22 | Maldivia | nevcairiel: true, but why use d3d when it supports openGL, which is far far easier to implement :P |
| 12:54.22 | Adys | wow can be run in opengl, so "who cares" |
| 12:54.29 | nevcairiel | also ,faster |
| 12:54.46 | foxlit | nevcairiel: can't reproduce that result, sorry. |
| 12:54.46 | Bruners | but no hardware cursor |
| 12:54.57 | foxlit | OGL is at least as slow in D3D in Dalaran for me. |
| 12:54.59 | nevcairiel | like i said, WoW is even faster in OpenGL on windows for me |
| 12:55.02 | foxlit | Plus it has no pretty shadows. |
| 12:55.09 | Taroven | I really should try opengl one of these days for wow... but I love the looks of my HDR a little too much and I never really have framerate issues as is. |
| 12:55.19 | Taroven | Well, if I do, they're CPU related and not graphics. |
| 12:55.31 | DWSR | taroven. |
| 12:55.32 | DWSR | Holy fuck man. |
| 12:55.34 | DWSR | TOO MUCH BLOOM |
| 12:55.39 | Taroven | Adjust it! |
| 12:55.54 | DWSR | in an instance. |
| 12:55.59 | Taroven | I'm just lazy and toggle it off when actually doing stuff. |
| 12:56.02 | Taroven | Shift-f12. =P |
| 12:56.04 | foxlit | http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=224 ? |
| 12:56.18 | Ycarene | I think it's stupid that there's no hardware cursor, especially since they have that for mac which also runs opengl. |
| 12:56.41 | nevcairiel | Try hovering over, say, dragonblight, and see if your fps without any other players in sight or even mobs in sight stays high |
| 12:56.41 | Taroven | Hmm... doing absolutely nothing atm... lemme get some coffee and I'll pump out some new settings. Need some addon testing hours anyway. |
| 12:56.45 | nevcairiel | I get higher fps in dalaran |
| 12:57.02 | Taroven | nev: Will in a few. |
| 12:57.09 | nevcairiel | But in opengl its fine |
| 12:57.10 | Taroven | Needs moar caffeine, afk. |
| 12:57.16 | nevcairiel | ultra settings short of shadows |
| 12:58.04 | nevcairiel | same problem for instances that have a view of the outside world |
| 12:58.26 | Grum | i wonder if i could easily debug if the low dps is cpu or gpu related :( |
| 12:58.35 | Grum | low fps even! |
| 12:58.39 | Ycarene | I'm seriously considering either moving to ubuntu from gentoo, or saving up for a copy of windows 7. |
| 12:58.41 | nevcairiel | get a cpu meter and a gpu meter |
| 12:59.08 | nevcairiel | also, dont trust cpu usage on windows |
| 12:59.13 | Grum | yeah that is the problem |
| 12:59.17 | Grum | where to get something reliable |
| 12:59.22 | Bruners | Ycarene: why ubuntu ? |
| 12:59.25 | nevcairiel | the percentage in usage is fine, actually |
| 12:59.29 | nevcairiel | just the graphs are wrong |
| 12:59.38 | nevcairiel | it shows it on wrong cpus |
| 12:59.48 | nevcairiel | get one task using 100% cpu, it wont show one cpu at max |
| 12:59.55 | Grum | i am pondering on doing the following, have a piece of onupdate code that just increments a counter while it monitors the fps |
| 12:59.59 | nevcairiel | it'll somehow show it spread out <.< |
| 12:59.59 | *** join/#wowuidev brykrys (~chatzilla@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Dev/Brykrys) |
| 13:00.10 | Grum | if that counters get any serious amount on it its gpu bound otherwise cpu |
| 13:00.15 | Grum | -s |
| 13:00.23 | Grum | but where to cut of 'serious amount' :P |
| 13:00.52 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraps (~chatzilla@ool-44c20717.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 13:01.00 | Kalroth | nevcairiel: get Process Explorer from sysinternals, its tons more reliable/accurate than task manager |
| 13:01.05 | Grum | oh i guess i can use a 'high settings' vs 'lowsettings' |
| 13:01.26 | Adys | processes to explore Kalroth's sis' internals |
| 13:01.30 | DWSR | Taroven: Can I tweak this live? |
| 13:01.40 | Kalroth | hot |
| 13:01.46 | Adys | Tell that to your sis! |
| 13:01.50 | Grum | i'd like to get more fps than ~9-15 in 25m heroism situations |
| 13:01.55 | Taroven | DWSR: Not sure |
| 13:02.05 | Grum | its just stupid that outside i easily get ~80-200 |
| 13:02.20 | Taroven | Also, not sure whether or not to call this irony, but my roommate apparently fell asleep while waiting for the coffee to brew. |
| 13:02.24 | DWSR | Taroven: lol |
| 13:02.30 | DWSR | Taroven: Dude, the bloom level goes UP for ngiht? |
| 13:02.33 | DWSR | night* wtf? |
| 13:02.38 | DWSR | holy shit. |
| 13:02.45 | Taroven | I believe it's just how it works. |
| 13:03.10 | Taroven | Believe adjusting the day/night thresholds would give a much different effect |
| 13:03.29 | DWSR | What should I adjust to turn DOWN the amount of bloom there is? |
| 13:03.34 | DWSR | BloomPowerDay? |
| 13:03.44 | Taroven | There's two BloomPowers |
| 13:03.47 | Taroven | Day and Night |
| 13:03.49 | DWSR | yeah |
| 13:03.58 | Taroven | Adjust one at a time, see how they affect things |
| 13:04.06 | Taroven | I couldn't tell you which is actually used more. |
| 13:04.10 | DWSR | Holy christ. |
| 13:04.19 | DWSR | It's way too fucking overbright in Nexus. |
| 13:04.27 | DWSR | Keristraza's room looks like a fucking whiteout. |
| 13:04.56 | Lopeppeppy | Damn dragons |
| 13:05.02 | DWSR | BloomPowerDay = 20 seems to be much saner. |
| 13:05.05 | [Ammo] | once you find good settings, share them somewhere :) |
| 13:05.07 | Taroven | I DO know that at certain points the HDR will bug the fuck out (gryphon out of IF has the occasional half-second HOLYSHITTHATSALOTTABLOOM moment) but I couldn't say if that's based on brightness or not |
| 13:05.24 | Taroven | Are the changes going through live, DWSR? |
| 13:05.42 | Taroven | Ammo: Did we get you in on this? D |
| 13:05.44 | Taroven | XD too. |
| 13:05.49 | DWSR | Taroven: Nope. |
| 13:05.50 | [Ammo] | shrug |
| 13:05.54 | nevcairiel | get a monitor with wide-gamut and turn it on, same effect :P |
| 13:05.57 | DWSR | gotta restart. |
| 13:06.03 | [Ammo] | I'm still looking to improve the looks while keeping the FPS |
| 13:06.09 | DWSR | Peppy, Ammo |
| 13:06.10 | DWSR | [08:39:53] <DWSR>http://hdimage.org/images/stoaojvehn2m99q7ur73.png http://hdimage.org/images/ugg4evwxwcg5z5ri9y7c.png before, after. |
| 13:06.12 | Taroven | DWSR: Aww. No biggie, just gonna replace /rl with alt-f4 for a while |
| 13:06.16 | [Ammo] | since last june/july somehow without me changing anything my FPS went to SHIT |
| 13:06.26 | nevcairiel | just try /console gxrestart |
| 13:06.30 | [Ammo] | I have core2duo at 3.3ghz and a 4870 |
| 13:06.36 | DWSR | nevcairiel: Ah, good idea. |
| 13:06.41 | Taroven | Ooo, there's a graphics engine restart command? |
| 13:06.43 | DWSR | Taroven: 20 seems to be MUCH saner. |
| 13:06.43 | Taroven | DID NOT KNOW. |
| 13:06.43 | [Ammo] | and my fps are just bloody crap since that time |
| 13:06.45 | DWSR | Taroven: Yes. |
| 13:07.07 | Taroven | DWSR: Got a screeny of 20 bloom? |
| 13:07.08 | [Ammo] | sometimes it goes back to the normal levels inexplainable |
| 13:07.19 | [Ammo] | but then a next reload of the UI its shit again |
| 13:07.21 | [Ammo] | (without addons) |
| 13:07.27 | nevcairiel | so your dx hack didnt fix it? |
| 13:07.30 | Taroven | Strangeness. |
| 13:07.35 | Grum | [Ammo]: i've got the same problems you have |
| 13:07.37 | Grum | it makes no sense |
| 13:07.50 | [Ammo] | nevcairiel: it fixed it for the first time starting |
| 13:07.56 | [Ammo] | after that it went to shit agian |
| 13:07.56 | Grum | one raid i can raid with ~30-40 fps the other it craws at ~7-12 |
| 13:08.12 | DWSR | Taroven: Yeah, let me find a spot that makes the difference a bit more noticeable. |
| 13:08.13 | [Ammo] | I downgraded my DX to DX9 |
| 13:08.22 | [Ammo] | and that worked for one restart |
| 13:08.33 | Taroven | DWSR: Don't bother, I've got it up now |
| 13:09.03 | [Ammo] | the fun part is, 1x or 8x multisampling makes no fps differnce |
| 13:09.07 | [Ammo] | so my game looks hot :p |
| 13:09.09 | [Ammo] | but meh |
| 13:09.12 | Taroven | DWSR: You're right. Does look nicer. |
| 13:09.23 | nevcairiel | i can turn on ultra shadows, and i dont get any quality difference |
| 13:09.27 | nevcairiel | eh |
| 13:09.30 | nevcairiel | fps difference |
| 13:09.33 | Taroven | I'mma play around with things a touch more and see if there's some secondary settings to have fun with |
| 13:09.40 | [Ammo] | I can't turn on ultra shadows anymore |
| 13:09.44 | [Ammo] | I used to be able to |
| 13:09.58 | [Ammo] | they changed somethin in it and after that I get shit fps |
| 13:10.18 | DWSR | yeah. |
| 13:10.20 | DWSR | Dynamic shadows. |
| 13:10.23 | DWSR | They added them in in WotLK |
| 13:10.48 | nevcairiel | ... |
| 13:11.12 | DWSR | Taroven: Try turning off the Oversaturation |
| 13:11.30 | DWSR | BloomAllowOversaturation |
| 13:11.33 | Grum | you have a: no settings, spots on the floor and then the 'real ones' with better edges right? |
| 13:11.41 | Grum | (for shadows?) |
| 13:11.45 | Taroven | DWSR: Tried it yet, or wanting me to? |
| 13:11.52 | DWSR | Grum: Sort of. |
| 13:11.55 | [Ammo] | Grum: yeah |
| 13:11.57 | DWSR | Taroven: Eh, try it. |
| 13:12.04 | [Ammo] | I have it set at the spots on floor |
| 13:12.04 | DWSR | Taroven: It looks a bit better. |
| 13:12.11 | DWSR | Stops the HOLYSHITBLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM |
| 13:12.16 | nevcairiel | there is different levels of "real" shadows, only player .. players and environment .. etc |
| 13:12.41 | DWSR | I wonder. |
| 13:12.43 | DWSR | Motion Blur. |
| 13:12.47 | DWSR | we shall turn you ON |
| 13:12.57 | Grum | nevcairiel: yeah true |
| 13:13.07 | Taroven | DWSR: Ooo, motion blue. |
| 13:13.29 | DWSR | HOLY TITTYFUCKING CHRIST |
| 13:13.32 | DWSR | I JUST BROKE MY FRAMERATE |
| 13:13.34 | *** join/#wowuidev Legorol (~legorol@cpc1-cmbg12-0-0-cust184.cmbg.cable.ntl.com) |
| 13:13.34 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Legorol] by ChanServ |
| 13:13.37 | Taroven | XD XD XD |
| 13:13.57 | DWSR | And it looks awful. |
| 13:13.58 | Taroven | Welp... |
| 13:13.59 | Grum | humz is there any proper explanation of all the settings somewhere ? :D |
| 13:14.11 | Taroven | I can read quest text now. |
| 13:14.28 | Taroven | And I just procced a valkyr with a test holy nova spam... |
| 13:14.44 | DWSR | hmm |
| 13:14.48 | DWSR | Motion Blur seems to have no effect. |
| 13:14.50 | nevcairiel | set spelllevel to 9000 and enjoy the show, imho |
| 13:15.00 | Grum | whats that nevcairiel? |
| 13:15.08 | DWSR | Grum: SpellDetailLevel |
| 13:15.11 | nevcairiel | a very high spell detail level =P |
| 13:15.17 | DWSR | Basically, it controls the amount of spell particle spam. |
| 13:15.26 | DWSR | 9000 turns Rain of Fire into Cataclsym. |
| 13:15.32 | Taroven | Not sure if I like the lack of oversaturation tbh. It's nice being able to read, but the level of bloom seems negligible then. |
| 13:15.46 | DWSR | Taroven: Try turning up the bloom about 5 or so |
| 13:15.52 | DWSR | It's just stopping you from getting serious highlights. |
| 13:15.52 | Taroven | Was thinking the same. |
| 13:15.57 | nevcairiel | see, thats why its just bad to use a hack like that |
| 13:16.07 | nevcairiel | if done properly, they can bloom the world a bit more, but dont do it for the ui |
| 13:16.10 | Taroven | Actually, gonna try back up at 35. |
| 13:16.21 | Taroven | Just to see the exact effect. |
| 13:16.26 | *** join/#wowuidev Matilda_ (~alexia@69.73.16.202) |
| 13:16.53 | Taroven | ...nah, 35 just makes it look washed out |
| 13:16.58 | DWSR | wow |
| 13:17.03 | DWSR | Occlusion looks fucking awful. |
| 13:17.05 | DWSR | Don't do that. |
| 13:17.08 | Taroven | Deal. |
| 13:17.22 | DWSR | and it drops your framerate horribly. |
| 13:17.28 | Taroven | Knew that part. |
| 13:17.34 | DWSR | hrm. |
| 13:17.36 | *** join/#wowuidev Lunessa (~Lunessa@WoWUIDev/Lunessa) |
| 13:17.37 | DWSR | Let's see reflection |
| 13:17.38 | Taroven | What's your card? |
| 13:17.39 | nevcairiel | If oyu have nvidia you can already turn on ambient occlusion through the driver |
| 13:17.46 | Grum | nevcairiel: ah, there is just a slider for that in the normal config right? i noticed on fights like Mimiron hard and Marrowgar its barely possible to see where the flames actually are when you put it 'sortof low' |
| 13:18.02 | nevcairiel | Grum: the "max" of the normal slider is 9 |
| 13:18.11 | Taroven | I could turn on AO through nhancer, never actually tried though |
| 13:18.12 | Grum | 9 is quite the amount tbh |
| 13:18.23 | Grum | 9000 must be ... insane :D |
| 13:18.41 | *** join/#wowuidev cncfanatics (~cncfanati@WoWUIDev/cncfanatics) |
| 13:18.45 | Grum | those flames will become so packed that they are simply overbright completely? |
| 13:18.50 | DWSR | any ideas on reflection? |
| 13:18.52 | nevcairiel | my hurricane AoE looks like one big lightning bolt, because its SO FUCKING MANY |
| 13:18.59 | Taroven | Prolly wouldn't work, DWSR. |
| 13:19.01 | DWSR | Grum: Not without the HDR hack. |
| 13:19.11 | Grum | HDR Hack? |
| 13:19.14 | DWSR | Taroven: I'm hoping maybe it will make the shiny textures moar shiny. |
| 13:19.27 | Taroven | Give it a shot and lemme know, hunting for more. |
| 13:19.30 | nevcairiel | Its not a "HDR" hack, its a ugly DX hack to just bloom the colors |
| 13:19.44 | Grum | DWSR: when in a fight like BQL you get the flames and you dont move, they al get packed onto 1 location |
| 13:19.50 | DWSR | Taroven: It does, sort of. |
| 13:19.50 | Grum | the middle of those flames becomes bright pink |
| 13:19.55 | Grum | instead of purplelish |
| 13:19.58 | DWSR | Meh. |
| 13:20.01 | DWSR | That's your monitor. |
| 13:20.03 | DWSR | It's not supposed to. |
| 13:20.15 | Taroven | DWSR: Got a screeny of it sorta working? |
| 13:20.26 | DWSR | Taroven: It's not really enough to be noticable. |
| 13:20.33 | DWSR | Let's see if I can't crank this right up. |
| 13:20.36 | Grum | DWSR: quite sure that's not 'my monitor' hehe |
| 13:20.36 | Taroven | Hehe |
| 13:20.51 | Grum | its the same with running a fire overitself @ Mimiron |
| 13:21.22 | Grum | nevcairiel: what kind of framerates do you have in raids? and what kind of hardware? |
| 13:21.22 | DWSR | Taroven: Meh, doesn't seem to do much of anything. |
| 13:21.30 | DWSR | Taroven: Maybe I'm just making it up. |
| 13:21.49 | nevcairiel | Grum: usually good framerates unless the fight involves some outdoor scenes (boat, saurfang) |
| 13:22.02 | nevcairiel | then it goes to hell <.< |
| 13:22.07 | nevcairiel | 40+ at least |
| 13:22.15 | nevcairiel | gtx260 and a i7 |
| 13:22.17 | Grum | so sindragosa/lichking are fucked as well? |
| 13:22.24 | nevcairiel | dunno, never been there :P |
| 13:22.37 | Grum | hmmm why are those areas so painful |
| 13:22.52 | Grum | maybe forcefully lowering the clip distance in those areas might be a nice thing? |
| 13:22.55 | Taroven | DWSR: Prolly nothing then tbh... I doubt it could place reflections on something that wasn't designed for them in the first place |
| 13:23.05 | DWSR | Yeah. |
| 13:23.18 | DWSR | tried the shadows yet? |
| 13:24.08 | Taroven | Nope, I pay approximately zero attention to shadows. |
| 13:24.11 | DWSR | tbh, I like your defaults, but leaving the BloomAllowOversaturation = 1 and having BloomPowerDay = 20. |
| 13:24.19 | *** join/#wowuidev Aelobin (~Aelobin@85.211.99.177) |
| 13:24.32 | Taroven | Yeah. |
| 13:24.43 | Taroven | Those really do seem to work well. |
| 13:24.47 | Lunessa | station |
| 13:24.48 | DWSR | The color correction + bloom alone makes it quite nice to have. |
| 13:25.00 | Lopeppeppy | Morning, Lunessa. |
| 13:25.03 | Grum | DWSR: that just makes it brighter and more vibrant right? |
| 13:25.11 | DWSR | Grum: Yeah, more or less. |
| 13:25.25 | nevcairiel | which you can also do with gfx driver or monitor settings, fwiw =P |
| 13:25.32 | Taroven | Grum: Actually it darkens things a little and raises the contrast a little. |
| 13:25.34 | Grum | well not in that way |
| 13:25.42 | Grum | hmm yeah |
| 13:25.45 | DWSR | nevcairiel: Sure, but then I have to adjust my monitor/driver for each game? lolfuckthat. |
| 13:25.47 | Taroven | Makes everything look just a little bit nicer. |
| 13:26.00 | DWSR | yeah, nice find Taroven. |
| 13:26.01 | Grum | makes it look more 'alive' but 'cartoony' |
| 13:26.04 | nevcairiel | get a monitor with wide-gamut and turn it on, it looks pretty similar to that hdr hack on low settings |
| 13:26.18 | Grum | what is the hdr hack O.o |
| 13:26.26 | Taroven | Grum: One sec and I'll link |
| 13:26.57 | Grum | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-NMsGOMSU4&hd=1 <-- google found |
| 13:27.05 | Taroven | Grum: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1999297/wowHDR.zip |
| 13:27.16 | Taroven | Drop into wow directory and start game |
| 13:27.20 | Taroven | Shift-f12 to toggle |
| 13:27.33 | DWSR | It's not bad. |
| 13:27.40 | Taroven | Shouldn't affect framerate in the slightest, and our settings look MUCH nicer. =P |
| 13:27.49 | DWSR | The way I have my UI set up, it actually makes it look better. |
| 13:27.53 | Grum | 'our' settings? |
| 13:27.57 | DWSR | Since my UI is semi-transparent black. |
| 13:28.05 | DWSR | Grum: The settings that Taroven and I are using. |
| 13:28.11 | Taroven | Grum: ^ |
| 13:28.13 | nevcairiel | its just your personal opinion, i dont like bleeding colors |
| 13:28.22 | DWSR | Grum: The defaults that come with the DLL are awful. |
| 13:28.29 | DWSR | nevcairiel: So turn off oversaturation |
| 13:28.29 | Taroven | [Ammo]: Dropbox link above, looks good enough for sharing to me. |
| 13:28.43 | DWSR | Doesn't bleed at all then |
| 13:28.44 | [Ammo] | kk |
| 13:28.55 | Grum | it allows for overbright pixels so it seems |
| 13:28.58 | Taroven | nevcairiel: Line 64 in enbseries.ini |
| 13:28.58 | DWSR | It's not a magic silver bullet to making the game look better, but it helps. |
| 13:29.09 | nevcairiel | its effect is also pretty unimpressive then :P |
| 13:29.12 | *** join/#wowuidev Zyonin (~zyonin@93-38-79-49.ip69.fastwebnet.it) |
| 13:29.13 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Zyonin] by ChanServ |
| 13:29.26 | nevcairiel | just a bit more vibrant colors |
| 13:29.33 | DWSR | nevcairiel: Drop the bloom level and leave oversaturation on, or turn the bloom level up and turn off oversaturation |
| 13:29.42 | Taroven | ^ |
| 13:29.47 | DWSR | I'll hop into Nexus or ICC or something and I'll show you the differences. |
| 13:30.16 | Taroven | Raising the bloom to 35 (line 52 btw) kinda washes things out if you turn oversaturation off, so somewhere between 20 and 30 is a good bet |
| 13:30.40 | Taroven | I was thinking 25-27 would look pretty decent, but didn't bother trying |
| 13:30.44 | *** join/#wowuidev chrippa (~chrippa@tanuki.se) |
| 13:30.56 | [Ammo] | I need to find a magic bullet to make the game run as good as prior to the shadow changes |
| 13:31.04 | Taroven | [Ammo]: Agreed. |
| 13:31.16 | Taroven | Well, aside from just killing shadows altogether. |
| 13:31.31 | [Ammo] | either that or it's some kind of other issue |
| 13:31.31 | DWSR | [Ammo]: Turn the shadows to the lowest 'on' setting |
| 13:31.36 | [Ammo] | with texture caching |
| 13:31.38 | [Ammo] | I did dwsr |
| 13:31.43 | [Ammo] | but that is just bullshit |
| 13:31.48 | [Ammo] | I used to have 40-70 fps in dala |
| 13:31.52 | [Ammo] | now I have 15-20 |
| 13:31.52 | DWSR | Or, alternatively, try switching back to the old engine. |
| 13:32.05 | [Ammo] | how? |
| 13:32.07 | Adys | anyone worked with opengl before? |
| 13:32.14 | nevcairiel | Adys: i have |
| 13:32.20 | Grum | [Ammo]: that is quite drastic, some people have actually made mods to drop the 'clipping' range while being in dalaran, because wow doesnt really do occlusion properly |
| 13:32.22 | [Ammo] | I can't live with a software cursor |
| 13:32.25 | DWSR | [Ammo]: SET gxApi "d3d9" <-- in your Config.WTF |
| 13:32.34 | [Ammo] | ah sweet |
| 13:32.45 | nevcairiel | d3d9 is still the default |
| 13:32.47 | nevcairiel | <.< |
| 13:32.48 | Adys | nevcairiel I got an app here which doesn't display anything except an untextured terrain |
| 13:32.53 | Grum | i wish i could turn on wireframe somehow |
| 13:32.56 | Adys | but every time i start it |
| 13:33.05 | Adys | it makes my graphic card go all noisy |
| 13:33.06 | [Ammo] | nevcairiel: is it? |
| 13:33.10 | Adys | it's capped at 60fps |
| 13:33.11 | nevcairiel | yes |
| 13:33.11 | [Ammo] | then what is the other one? |
| 13:33.16 | Taroven | opengl |
| 13:33.17 | nevcairiel | d3d9ex |
| 13:33.22 | Taroven | OH |
| 13:33.23 | Taroven | that. |
| 13:33.35 | nevcairiel | its just a texture management change, fwiw |
| 13:33.39 | Taroven | Don't mind me. Just hit the 24 hours awake mark. |
| 13:33.53 | nevcairiel | it moves the textures out of WoW memory space and into the directx memory |
| 13:34.01 | Wobin | ahaha |
| 13:34.02 | [Ammo] | well |
| 13:34.04 | nevcairiel | so you don't hit the 2gb mark as fast |
| 13:34.09 | Wobin | sexymap http://screencast.com/t/MmU2OGM2Zj |
| 13:34.16 | [Ammo] | SOMETHING is fucking me over |
| 13:34.19 | [Ammo] | and if that is it |
| 13:34.23 | [Ammo] | I'l live with the 2gb mark |
| 13:34.33 | Grum | you never hit the 2gb mark anyhow in normal use |
| 13:34.36 | nevcairiel | its barely an issue anyway |
| 13:34.51 | Grum | Wobin: that is just wtfMYYESBURN :p |
| 13:34.52 | DWSR | lol Wobin |
| 13:34.55 | Adys | Grum: you used to in tbc |
| 13:34.57 | Adys | particularly shatt |
| 13:35.12 | Taroven | Jesus Wobin, ow. |
| 13:35.16 | Taroven | My eyes burn... |
| 13:35.17 | DWSR | [Ammo]: Turning on the new engine might help you out |
| 13:35.25 | Grum | Adys: yes indeed, you could have ~1.5-1.8gb wow-instances |
| 13:35.26 | [Ammo] | I'll go check it out |
| 13:35.30 | Taroven | Speaking of SexyMap. |
| 13:35.31 | DWSR | nevcairiel: I thought d3d9ex was the new engine? |
| 13:35.34 | DWSR | err. |
| 13:35.36 | DWSR | s/new/default/; |
| 13:35.37 | nevcairiel | it is new |
| 13:35.39 | [Ammo] | I'll test both settings |
| 13:35.42 | nevcairiel | but not default |
| 13:35.45 | [Ammo] | because I'm bloody fed up with this shite |
| 13:35.47 | Grum | [Ammo]: how do you test it? |
| 13:35.51 | Grum | dalaran walking? |
| 13:35.54 | [Ammo] | yeah |
| 13:35.58 | [Ammo] | if fps doubles I R happy |
| 13:36.00 | [Ammo] | if not |
| 13:36.04 | [Ammo] | I R not happy |
| 13:36.04 | Grum | doesnt that really depend on how many people are in dalaran? |
| 13:36.07 | Taroven | Anyone know of an addon that includes the icon hiding of SexyMap but not the bulky parts? |
| 13:36.17 | [Ammo] | Grum: not if you check quick enough |
| 13:36.17 | DWSR | Taroven: Chinchilla. |
| 13:36.20 | [Ammo] | by restarting |
| 13:36.24 | Taroven | OH GOD NO |
| 13:36.24 | DWSR | Taroven: Also, try Minimap Button Frame. |
| 13:36.33 | Taroven | Blech |
| 13:36.38 | DWSR | Taroven: What's wrong with either of those? |
| 13:36.40 | Grum | [Ammo]: mmm yeah |
| 13:36.47 | Grum | i wish wow would have a replay option |
| 13:36.49 | DWSR | I use them both and they work great, as you can see in my screenshot. |
| 13:36.55 | [Ammo] | yeah grum |
| 13:36.59 | Taroven | I've used both before. |
| 13:37.00 | Grum | so you could replay a raidencounter and tweak your system until you had acceptable fps |
| 13:37.13 | Taroven | Chinchilla has an absolutely unnecessary amount of features for what I want. |
| 13:37.22 | Adys | nevcairiel: any idea if its normal? |
| 13:37.37 | Taroven | (that and I really can't use many of ckknight's addons anymore, too many libs...) |
| 13:37.46 | DWSR | Taroven: use MBF then. |
| 13:37.48 | DWSR | That's what I use. |
| 13:37.54 | Grum | minimapster/ |
| 13:37.55 | DWSR | Though, to be fair, I don't have many minimap buttons to start with., |
| 13:37.55 | Taroven | Bad experiences with it. |
| 13:37.56 | Grum | ? |
| 13:38.06 | Grum | yeah what minimap buttons? |
| 13:38.15 | Grum | anything that doesnt allow to remove the button at the minimap is not worth using |
| 13:38.17 | nevcairiel | Adys: hm, well it will use all resources it can like any good 3d app, but if its fps capped it shouldnt do more then that .. in theory anyway |
| 13:38.22 | Grum | or worth hacking the piece of shit out of there :D |
| 13:38.28 | Taroven | Come to think of it. |
| 13:38.36 | Taroven | I really don't need anything that hides the buttons. |
| 13:38.48 | Taroven | I just realized that the only buttons I have left are the calendar and tracking. |
| 13:38.50 | DWSR | Taroven: 90% of buttons are configurable anyway. |
| 13:38.53 | Grum | Taroven: you should be able to hide then through options |
| 13:38.56 | Taroven | Yeah. |
| 13:39.36 | DWSR | You'll notice I have a grand total of 5. |
| 13:39.39 | DWSR | And I think I use 1 of them.\ |
| 13:39.45 | Taroven | Of course, per-character profiling will be the death of me, but I believe it's time I went back to the really simple minimap mod approach. |
| 13:40.22 | nevcairiel | then use MiniMapster =P |
| 13:40.25 | DWSR | Taroven: Once I hit 30 on any character, I have to design a UI for it. |
| 13:40.37 | DWSR | Each character has its own UI. |
| 13:40.48 | DWSR | that's fairly unique from any other character that I have. |
| 13:40.57 | Taroven | nev: Done and done. |
| 13:41.18 | Taroven | DWSR: Sec, lemme find a screeny. |
| 13:41.36 | Taroven | http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1999297/WoWScrnShot_030310_205419.jpg |
| 13:42.11 | Taroven | The only difference between that and my current layout is that I now classcolor the borders for everything. No idea why, it just struck me as fun to do a week ago. |
| 13:43.39 | [Ammo] | I only classcolor my minimap border |
| 13:43.43 | [Ammo] | just for shits and giggles |
| 13:44.13 | Taroven | Eh, I just did it while testing out some new eventhorizon crap |
| 13:44.15 | DWSR | I'll post screenies of my UIs when I get back |
| 13:44.27 | DWSR | Anyway, I g2g. |
| 13:44.28 | Taroven | Never got around to deciding if I like it or not. |
| 13:44.28 | DWSR | Later all. |
| 13:44.31 | Taroven | Laters. |
| 13:44.54 | Taroven | I do take pride in writing my own panel addon though. |
| 13:45.19 | Taroven | Found out that just by disabling kgPanels I was gaining 30fps in raid combat. |
| 13:45.49 | Taroven | NO idea why or how it was blasting my fps so badly. |
| 13:47.54 | Grum | Taroven: what really? |
| 13:48.05 | Taroven | I shit you not. |
| 13:50.04 | Taroven | Funny thing is, I found that out when I started writing the new panel addon |
| 13:50.38 | Adys | rofl |
| 13:50.47 | Taroven | Decided that I only used some really basic features of kgPanels and that all the config wasn't necessary, killed it off, and lo and behold my fps skyrocketed. |
| 13:50.49 | Adys | half of the dupes to this chrome bug have been filed by chromium devs |
| 13:52.08 | Taroven | Adys: What bug? |
| 13:52.39 | Adys | Taroven: crbug/14517 |
| 13:53.21 | cog|work | Lunessa: ping |
| 13:53.27 | Lunessa | pong |
| 13:53.57 | Taroven | Adys: Ah. |
| 13:54.46 | Taroven | Is it possible to get Minimapster to hide the zone text? |
| 13:54.51 | Taroven | I know where I am, dammit. |
| 13:55.02 | Ycarene | Taroven - I find that a lot of unitframe addons will cause the game to lag like crazy in raids because of all the stuff they're doing to update their raid frames? |
| 13:56.05 | Taroven | Ycarene: Depends. |
| 13:56.11 | Ycarene | pitbull seemed partuclary bad for this is seemed. |
| 13:56.14 | Taroven | A simple oUF layout does wonders. |
| 13:56.31 | [Ammo] | Taroven: hack the code, add the option, give patch |
| 13:56.34 | Taroven | A not-so-simple oUF layout will sacrifice some performance, but will do exactly what you want it to. |
| 13:56.40 | [Ammo] | and while you're add it fix the positioning when scaling p |
| 13:56.54 | Taroven | [Ammo]: Hehe, I might just. |
| 13:56.58 | [Ammo] | I cba copying the correct scale position code again :) |
| 13:57.11 | [Ammo] | because mine is locked in place in my UI so shrug |
| 13:57.20 | Taroven | I hate things like that, but yeah... I definitely noticed the positioning was borked. |
| 13:57.24 | nevcairiel | just use LibWindow already :d |
| 13:57.32 | [Ammo] | fuck libwindow |
| 13:57.43 | nevcairiel | its all it does |
| 13:57.50 | nevcairiel | provide positioning code |
| 13:58.06 | [Ammo] | and draghandles and and and |
| 13:58.08 | [Ammo] | fuck it :p |
| 13:58.13 | nevcairiel | it doesnt! |
| 13:58.54 | nevcairiel | well it can, but it doesnt force you to use those 10 lines of its code :d |
| 13:58.55 | [Ammo] | all it needs to do is provide 2 functions, it does too much |
| 13:59.05 | nevcairiel | yeah, it provides 4 functions :D |
| 13:59.21 | [Ammo] | and you need specific saved variable paths and meh |
| 13:59.30 | [Ammo] | it's easier for me to copy my 2 funcs in |
| 13:59.49 | [Ammo] | than figure out its api andconform to it |
| 13:59.51 | *** join/#wowuidev stolenlegacy (~stolenleg@d86-32-145-154.cust.tele2.at) |
| 14:00.38 | Kraps | http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/12/08/call-of-duty-effect/ |
| 14:03.03 | *** join/#wowuidev Random (~Denial@unaffiliated/windaria) |
| 14:03.29 | *** join/#wowuidev Movix1 (~Movix@mail.schiffmann.fr) |
| 14:03.47 | Taroven | Ah ha. Found a minimap mod that does exactly what I want it to do. |
| 14:04.02 | Taroven | Sorry Ammo, none of my hackage for you today. =P |
| 14:04.43 | QzzLeb | what you want from a minimap mod... ;) |
| 14:05.42 | Taroven | Not much. |
| 14:06.09 | Taroven | Shape doesn't matter. No border, no background, no buttons, no text except for the clock if I want it. |
| 14:06.21 | Taroven | Heroic banner optional. |
| 14:07.32 | Taroven | The rest... I can do with panels. |
| 14:08.52 | Lunessa | I'm pretty fond of Seerah's PocketPlot. |
| 14:10.26 | Taroven | I like PocketPlot too, just wanted to go even simpler. |
| 14:10.31 | Taroven | Ended up with ItsyMinimap. |
| 14:17.01 | *** join/#wowuidev Osagasu (~Creek@67-197-1-37.rh1.dyn.cm.comporium.net) |
| 14:35.54 | Taroven | [10:34:54] Interface\FrameXML\UIParent.lua:2009: bad argument #1 to 'min' (number expected, got nil) |
| 14:35.55 | Taroven | ...wtf? |
| 14:37.01 | Taroven | Trace shows traces from UIParent/GetMaxUIPanelsWidth, CanShowCenterUIPanel, UpdateUIPanelPositions... |
| 14:37.43 | Antiarc | re: Sexymap, it's really not that bulky! |
| 14:37.48 | Antiarc | It looks like it because of the custom textures |
| 14:37.51 | Antiarc | But those are from WoW |
| 14:38.04 | Antiarc | I'm very concerned with performance :) |
| 14:38.17 | *** join/#wowuidev stupiddigmouse (~chatzilla@111.193.205.116) |
| 14:38.26 | mikma | cairenn|afk: http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/hot_dog.jpg |
| 14:38.32 | Taroven | Antiarc: Yeah, I know, but if I'm not using it for anything but hiding buttons, there's really no reason for me to use it =P |
| 14:38.43 | Antiarc | I use it for hiding buttons and hudmap :P |
| 14:38.49 | Taroven | Hehe. |
| 14:38.57 | Taroven | Good point, I'm REALLY gonna miss hudmap. |
| 14:39.21 | Taroven | undeletes SexyMap |
| 14:39.24 | Antiarc | try the Simple Square preset |
| 14:39.38 | Antiarc | It's plan and minimalistic and "looks" far less bulky :) |
| 14:39.45 | Taroven | That's exactly what I was using, with a couple tweaks. |
| 14:41.25 | Taroven | Got a recommendation for a good buff addon? I have no problem with the standard tbh, but would kill for a vertical layout that doesn't involve bars. |
| 14:41.37 | Taroven | And SBF's config daunts me. |
| 14:42.41 | Antiarc | I use SexyCooldown for my buffs and target debuffs, heh |
| 14:42.48 | Antiarc | That's an unconventional setup though |
| 14:43.03 | Antiarc | It takes some getting used to, but you wanna talk about saved real estate, that's it :) |
| 14:43.40 | Taroven | Little overboard for me. I use SexyCooldown to show certain debuffs and cooldowns/icds, but I wouldn't dare use it for a full buff monitor. |
| 14:43.56 | Taroven | Is a good idea though... |
| 14:44.13 | *** join/#wowuidev crs_ (~crs@dslb-084-061-041-171.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 14:44.31 | Antiarc | Well, I use RAidBuffStatus, which tells me if I (or anyone else) is missing important raid buffs |
| 14:44.38 | Antiarc | But that's a toggle window |
| 14:44.44 | Fisker | w /me Antiarc |
| 14:44.47 | Fisker | fuuuu |
| 14:44.48 | Fisker | Antiarc |
| 14:45.05 | *** join/#wowuidev Cide (~cide@c213-100-51-33.swipnet.se) |
| 14:45.06 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Cide] by ChanServ |
| 14:45.15 | Taroven | Hmm... kinda tempting actually. |
| 14:45.22 | Taroven | Would get rid of the "WTF AM I MISSING" moments. |
| 14:45.35 | Antiarc | Yup. It's great for keeping the raid buffed, too |
| 14:45.45 | Taroven | Does it show durations as well? |
| 14:45.46 | Antiarc | It's hilarious how many times a hunter ends up without an aspect, or a priest without IF |
| 14:45.56 | Antiarc | No, it just shows how many people don't have a given buff |
| 14:46.09 | Taroven | Hm. |
| 14:46.12 | Kalroth | RBS is awesome to catch the dumbasses! |
| 14:46.13 | Antiarc | One of our other raiders has something that shows durations, but I'm not sure what it is. |
| 14:46.48 | Taroven | Actually, I remember a buff addon from way back when which I have no idea what the name was... |
| 14:47.01 | Fisker | how is blessed going eh? |
| 14:47.12 | Antiarc | I haven't had any WoW addon time for like 2 months now |
| 14:47.24 | Taroven | Had buttons in static positions showing available casted raidbuffs and their durations, and if you were the casting class you could clicky to use them. |
| 14:47.27 | Antiarc | I log in for raids, punch through it, work between pulls, log out once the raid's over |
| 14:47.47 | Antiarc | And I'm really only continuing to raid because attrition has been so bad that losing yet another person would just kill the raid, and I don't want to kill my raid group :P |
| 14:47.59 | Taroven | I'm suddenly very tempted to write a buff addon. |
| 14:48.09 | Antiarc | It's not terribly complex, really |
| 14:48.17 | Antiarc | The trick is mostly in trying to figure out how to display stuff |
| 14:48.22 | Taroven | Yeah. |
| 14:48.37 | Taroven | I know the aura API through and through due to work on EventHorizon. |
| 14:49.24 | Taroven | The display stuff wouldn't be all that complicated, just some buttonframes and perhaps custom overlays to get the neat radar thingie going on. |
| 14:50.34 | *** join/#wowuidev kneeki (~chatzilla@66.45.169.50) |
| 14:50.37 | Taroven | Actually, I think the hardest part for me would be finding the damn icon paths to use for inactive crap. |
| 14:50.40 | kneeki | Hi all |
| 14:50.44 | Taroven | hai kneeki. |
| 14:51.25 | Taroven | Huh, that's an interesting bug. |
| 14:51.36 | Antiarc | select(2, GetSpellInfo(spellID)) |
| 14:51.40 | Antiarc | There, now you have the icon :D |
| 14:51.46 | Taroven | Good point. |
| 14:52.06 | Taroven | In windows 7, create a new directory in explorer and then scroll downwards using the mousewheel |
| 14:52.19 | Taroven | Giggles optional. |
| 14:52.52 | kneeki | nothing fancy other than it sets the folder name for me |
| 14:52.55 | Antiarc | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXWRK0UjGIU |
| 14:53.02 | Taroven | Happen to know of a lib with buff grouping information, or am I gonna have to hand code this? |
| 14:53.49 | Taroven | Antiarc: I don't know what to say about that. |
| 14:54.05 | Maldivia | Taroven: what should happen - the new folder just scrolls out of view and the folders name is set to "new folder" |
| 14:54.10 | Taroven | That's on the very fine line between hawt and disturbing. |
| 14:54.19 | Antiarc | There was one a while back, but it wasn't great |
| 14:54.23 | Antiarc | Trying to remember what it was |
| 14:54.29 | Antiarc | (hand code it) |
| 14:54.47 | kneeki | Maldivia: same thing happens for me |
| 14:54.57 | Taroven | Maldivia: Yeah... on mine, the folder name (still being edited) stays in exactly the same screen position while the rest of the window scrolls. |
| 14:55.04 | Taroven | Just looks really odd. |
| 14:55.11 | kneeki | Do your updates? |
| 14:55.19 | *** join/#wowuidev ckknight (~ckknight@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/CurseStaff/CurseForge/ckknight) |
| 14:55.19 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o ckknight] by ChanServ |
| 14:55.28 | nevcairiel | works fine here, name is set to New Folder and scrolling works |
| 14:55.33 | Taroven | *shrug* |
| 14:55.42 | Taroven | I've got a lot of odd problems on w7x64. |
| 14:55.50 | Fisker | Cide Antiarc |
| 14:56.11 | olafski | I'm going to install it tonight! |
| 14:56.18 | kneeki | I'm using x64 as well. But, I sure do wish I could giggle |
| 14:56.21 | Maldivia | I know there are some issues at time with scrolling in empty folders, where it just keeps scrolling eventhough there's notthing to scroll over - but then again, that has been there since XP |
| 14:56.22 | Taroven | Like, programs half-elevating during install, causing proper installations but being somehow unable to set up shell extensions. |
| 14:56.26 | kneeki | olafski: it's fantastic |
| 14:56.36 | olafski | :) |
| 14:56.49 | olafski | installing - 30 minutes.. setting up everything the way it's set up now - rest of the evening |
| 14:56.55 | Taroven | Heh. |
| 14:56.56 | nevcairiel | You probably just installed a 32-bit app which doesnt have a working shell extension for the 64-bit explorer :P |
| 14:57.12 | Industrial | nerdgasms on Mobile Suit Gundam Unicorn |
| 14:57.20 | Antiarc | I'm using W7x64, no particular issues |
| 14:57.26 | nevcairiel | same |
| 14:57.29 | Taroven | Perhaps, but when I force the install program to run as admin the shell extensions work perfectly most of the time. |
| 14:57.34 | Taroven | So... not sure. |
| 14:57.45 | Industrial | goosebumps |
| 14:57.50 | Lunessa | I'm also using W7x64 without that funkiness. |
| 14:58.05 | Taroven | It's like it can't decide whether or not to raspberry me every time I install something, so it settles with a yo mamma joke. |
| 14:58.32 | *** join/#wowuidev Gnarfoz (smallbrain@geektour.de) |
| 14:58.47 | nevcairiel | Some people are just blacklisted in every software on the planet and have problems with everything, on the other hand, its usually just a PEBCAK issue :P |
| 14:58.49 | Antiarc | http://i.imgur.com/UpPtX.gif |
| 14:58.58 | olafski | I tend to think that too nevcairiel |
| 14:59.08 | Taroven | Hehe, I'm of the blacklist variety. |
| 14:59.09 | olafski | I've been thinking that since I started using windows :/ |
| 14:59.10 | Maldivia | there's a trend with a lot if msc installers today, that don't ask for admin rights until they are about to write files, whick can be really annoying at times |
| 14:59.22 | Lunessa | Antiarc: Thanks, there's now a brick in my office. |
| 14:59.28 | nevcairiel | all recent msi installers do that |
| 14:59.30 | Maldivia | msi* |
| 14:59.38 | Taroven | I'm just confused as to why I need to manually elevate crap with UAC turned off. |
| 14:59.44 | nevcairiel | they only elevate when they need it |
| 14:59.57 | Antiarc | Lunessa: Happy to help! |
| 14:59.59 | nevcairiel | Maybe the problem *is* turning UAC off ;) |
| 15:00.09 | Taroven | Naw, it was 10 times worse with UAC on. |
| 15:00.11 | olafski | I like UAC |
| 15:00.20 | nevcairiel | Or you're still using vista |
| 15:00.22 | Antiarc | UAC in Win7 isn't bad at all |
| 15:00.22 | nevcairiel | and dont know it! |
| 15:00.36 | olafski | oh I am using vista.. and will continue to do so for a while at least |
| 15:00.40 | olafski | and I still don't mind UAC :) |
| 15:00.50 | nevcairiel | UAV in vista is really annoying |
| 15:00.55 | nevcairiel | UAC* |
| 15:00.59 | nevcairiel | the default setting in 7 is fine |
| 15:01.04 | Taroven | Like, I'd elevate the setup proggy via UAC and it would still install as user, or even worse, it wouldn't trigger UAC at all. |
| 15:01.09 | olafski | I've gotten used to having to click continue every time I start Total Commander.. other than that, no issues with it |
| 15:01.12 | Maldivia | UAC in Vista ins't that bad if you disable secure desktop |
| 15:01.44 | Maldivia | olafski: clicking continue - why ? |
| 15:01.49 | Lunessa | olafski: You can set it to elevate automatically in the properties for the icon so you don't have to click the warning every time. |
| 15:02.06 | olafski | maldivia: because I want to start total commander as administrator |
| 15:02.11 | Maldivia | ahh |
| 15:02.32 | Taroven | But yeah... never had ANY of these issues running w7x86, but on the other hand I have access to exactly half my ram in x86... |
| 15:02.38 | olafski | can I get around that? seems against the idea of UAC |
| 15:03.06 | Lunessa | olafski: You have to set that by hand. |
| 15:03.08 | nevcairiel | I dont think you can automate UAC elevation, that would go against it :d |
| 15:03.15 | olafski | yeah that's what I thought nevcairiel =) |
| 15:03.21 | nevcairiel | when you set elevate always in the options it still asks me |
| 15:03.38 | theorbtwo | It just stops you from needing to right-click, run as administrator every time. |
| 15:03.42 | Lunessa | Sorry, I thought he was clicking "run as Admin" all the time. |
| 15:03.46 | olafski | ah, no :) |
| 15:04.08 | Cide | disabling uac is stupid |
| 15:04.16 | Lunessa | Cide: I agree. |
| 15:04.33 | nevcairiel | i used to disable it in vista |
| 15:04.39 | Cide | you don't see unix people running around telling people "just login as root, no more typing sudo" |
| 15:04.43 | nevcairiel | because it didnt work with group-owned files |
| 15:04.46 | Taroven | I agree too... but in my case, kinda need to >.< |
| 15:04.49 | haste | I disabled UAC while uninstalling stuff on my eeepc |
| 15:04.51 | Cide | no you don't |
| 15:04.51 | olafski | I don't really mind pressing alt+c or whatever shortcut it is, when I start total commander.. and I still pay attention on the other occasions where UAC asks me something so it all works |
| 15:05.01 | nevcairiel | Taroven: you just broke it, or PEBCAK :P |
| 15:05.02 | haste | and re-enabled it afterwards |
| 15:05.19 | Lunessa | Turning off UAC is sort of like setting everything to 777 |
| 15:05.20 | *** join/#wowuidev p3lim (~Miranda@85.108.34.95.customer.cdi.no) |
| 15:05.28 | Taroven | nev: I definitely broke it. No idea how, since it's been like this over the course of two clean installs, but definitely broked. |
| 15:05.56 | Taroven | Exact same preferences and settings in w7x86 and it worked just fine. |
| 15:05.58 | Cide | you don't NEED to disable uac |
| 15:05.59 | Cide | ever |
| 15:06.04 | Taroven | I do, Cide. |
| 15:06.06 | Cide | nope |
| 15:06.15 | Maldivia | chmod -r 4777 /& ? |
| 15:06.20 | Industrial | does it have a keyring like functionality? eg 'stop bugging me save the pw NAO' |
| 15:06.23 | Taroven | Otherwise, programs aren't even triggering necessary UAC prompts on my system. |
| 15:06.28 | kneeki | You used to, back when it was first released in Vista. You HAD to disable it to install Adobe Reader... that's no longer the case now of course :) |
| 15:06.46 | Taroven | Meaning, nothing CAN run as admin when it sees the need to, unless I specifically tell it to. |
| 15:06.51 | Cide | Taroven: I don't believe you for a second |
| 15:07.02 | Taroven | I didn't believe it myself. |
| 15:07.08 | Taroven | Just kinda worked out that way. |
| 15:07.20 | Maldivia | Taroven: well, then you have a defunct installation, format, reinstall |
| 15:07.21 | nevcairiel | You are using build 7600, yes? :P |
| 15:07.30 | Taroven | Maldivia: I know. |
| 15:07.34 | Taroven | nev: Yep. |
| 15:07.42 | Taroven | Didn't happen in beta or RC. |
| 15:07.45 | kneeki | well that's your prob =p |
| 15:07.46 | Taroven | Only RTM. |
| 15:08.09 | Cide | I hear vista has two service pack |
| 15:08.10 | Maldivia | did you by chance upgrade your rc/beta to 7600, or? |
| 15:08.10 | Cide | packs |
| 15:08.16 | Cide | I also hear win7 > vista |
| 15:08.20 | Taroven | Fresh install, Maldivia. |
| 15:08.32 | nevcairiel | win7 is like the 5th service pack of vista |
| 15:08.44 | Cide | I hate people who say that |
| 15:08.46 | Taroven | And as I said before, same thing across two installs of w7x64... but zero issues in w7x86. |
| 15:08.57 | Maldivia | so when Vista SP3 and 7 SP1 compes out, that's vists 6 and 7 at the same time ? :) |
| 15:09.05 | Taroven | I didn't mind Vista at all honestly. |
| 15:09.12 | nevcairiel | no, vista 3 and 6! |
| 15:09.34 | Maldivia | so, not until Win7 SP2 will it 7==7 |
| 15:09.39 | nevcairiel | but honestly, vista was branched off the win7 build tree to just get some product on the shelves |
| 15:09.43 | Taroven | I largely prefer w7's gui (certain things just feel better to use), but other than that they're the same thing all over again. |
| 15:09.49 | Antiarc | Win 7 is actually Win 6.1 :V |
| 15:09.52 | Antiarc | Which is sorta funny |
| 15:10.00 | *** join/#wowuidev Osagasu (~Creek@67-197-1-37.rh1.dyn.cm.comporium.net) |
| 15:10.00 | theorbtwo | So vista is actually 7 version -2? |
| 15:10.03 | Taroven | Hmm... |
| 15:10.21 | theorbtwo | loves control-esc, start typing, hit enter. |
| 15:10.23 | Taroven | Really tempted, since I've gravitated to 90% portable installs, to just go with x86 again. |
| 15:10.28 | nevcairiel | vista wasnt even meant to exist, 7 just took too long |
| 15:10.36 | Antiarc | I couldn't ever go back to x86 |
| 15:10.38 | nevcairiel | so they branched and finished it quickly |
| 15:10.40 | Antiarc | I like having 8gb of RAM too much |
| 15:10.51 | Taroven | Antiarc: 6gb here. |
| 15:11.05 | QzzLeb | hmm uierrorsframe is below worldframe even though that its starta is higher than worldframe |
| 15:11.06 | nevcairiel | 8 gb is nice, like 6gb are windows cache =P |
| 15:11.08 | Taroven | I really, really don't want to go to 3.5gb, but I think I've about had it. |
| 15:11.26 | theorbtwo | sniffles with his little 4GB. |
| 15:11.44 | Taroven | Between elevation issues with or without UAC, random DWM crash+restores, and all-around goofiness, yeah. |
| 15:11.50 | Taroven | It's about time to go to the stable install. |
| 15:11.59 | nevcairiel | You just broke it, its fine for everyone else =) |
| 15:12.06 | Taroven | Hehe, I know. |
| 15:12.08 | Antiarc | I've had...maybe 2 DWM crashes? |
| 15:12.08 | olafski | aww theorbtwo |
| 15:12.12 | Antiarc | Since October |
| 15:12.13 | olafski | I'm installing win7 on a 2GB system tonight |
| 15:12.17 | Fisker | ITT: We blame Windows on hardware issues? |
| 15:12.31 | Maldivia | no, we blame you Fisker |
| 15:12.40 | nevcairiel | i use win7 on my 1.5gb laptop olafski, works fine too |
| 15:12.44 | *** join/#wowuidev Hirsute (~chatzilla@155-99-207-0.uconnect.utah.edu) |
| 15:12.49 | olafski | nevcairiel: yeah I imagine it's not bad |
| 15:12.49 | Taroven | No gripes about x86 vs x64 in general, only for my screwed-up frankencomp specifically. |
| 15:12.51 | nevcairiel | just no aero |
| 15:12.51 | *** join/#wowuidev Hirsute (~chatzilla@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Developer/Hirsute) |
| 15:13.01 | olafski | nevcairiel: I also bought a 8GB USB drive just now, both to install from and to use for readyboost |
| 15:13.13 | Taroven | It just feels very wrong to have 6gb installed and nearly half that unusable. -.- |
| 15:13.15 | nevcairiel | just hope its fast enough for readyboost |
| 15:13.32 | Maldivia | I have a win7-32 in a virtual machine with 1gb, on my win7-64 machine, so I can use the annoying printer at work, until they release a working driver for win7-64 :P |
| 15:13.39 | Hirsute | Taroven++ |
| 15:13.55 | olafski | nevcairiel: it is, I tested one that a friend had bought a few weeks ago |
| 15:14.03 | Hirsute | Maldivia: s/until/if/ |
| 15:14.19 | *** part/#wowuidev Movix1 (~Movix@mail.schiffmann.fr) |
| 15:14.45 | Taroven | hunts down his x86 dvd |
| 15:19.01 | Taroven | brb reformatting... |
| 15:19.09 | kneeki | Is there a blizzard function to modify the text on a frame with that growing/shrinking/pulse that you would see in power auras, or am I going to have to code that by hand? |
| 15:19.35 | Taroven | ...or not, brb backing up random crap. |
| 15:19.50 | Taroven | kneeki: Hand code ahoy. |
| 15:19.58 | kneeki | blegh |
| 15:20.20 | Antiarc | You can use the Blizzard animation framework |
| 15:20.25 | Taroven | ^ |
| 15:20.35 | Taroven | Shouldn't be too horrible. |
| 15:20.37 | Antiarc | It's not a single function, but it'll manage the timing and such for you |
| 15:20.48 | nevcairiel | the animation code is really handy |
| 15:20.51 | kneeki | Antiarc: oooo, got a link to that somewhere? |
| 15:20.57 | Guest9915 | ! |
| 15:21.23 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (~kd3@wikia/kaydeethree) |
| 15:21.30 | Taroven | kneeki, there's a couple posts on the wowinterface forums about it, iirc |
| 15:21.45 | Taroven | Can't remember exactly which technical section they were in, but they're definitely there. |
| 15:21.51 | Antiarc | There's a sticky in the UI forums with the info on it |
| 15:21.56 | Taroven | That too. |
| 15:22.02 | Antiarc | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15443414368&sid=1 |
| 15:22.09 | Cide | Lunessa: ping |
| 15:22.15 | Lunessa | pong |
| 15:22.19 | Taroven | The wowi posts had some examples that I believe do exactly what you're looking for. |
| 15:23.12 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (~kd3@wikia/kaydeethree) |
| 15:24.01 | mitch0 | have they fixed the animations recently? |
| 15:24.17 | mitch0 | last time I checked, the alpha animation was mostly broken... |
| 15:24.18 | nevcairiel | have they been broken? |
| 15:24.28 | nevcairiel | when did you check, 3.0? :p |
| 15:24.35 | mitch0 | erm, about :) |
| 15:24.55 | mitch0 | it sorta flashed back to full opacity when the anim ended |
| 15:25.45 | mitch0 | also, the icons embedded in fontstrings didn't obey frame level SetAlpha() (not an animation issue, it happens without animations, too) |
| 15:25.52 | mitch0 | or at least, used to happen |
| 15:26.30 | Fisker | mitch0 |
| 15:29.03 | Antiarc | "Yesterday, GitHub received 33,154 pushes containing 109,290 commitsâ¦about 1 every second." |
| 15:29.06 | Antiarc | Holy frijoles. |
| 15:31.04 | Taroven | Alright, NOW brb reformatting. |
| 15:32.24 | Adys | anyone familiar with qt? I need to fix window positioning on startup |
| 15:36.31 | *** join/#wowuidev Odlaw (~ozzy@c-98-245-3-204.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 15:44.59 | Fisker | you could do some commits to blessed Antiarc |
| 15:49.32 | p3lim | Is it possible by Blizzard options to disable the threat line in the tooltip? |
| 15:49.53 | Adys | p3lim: yes |
| 15:52.58 | Adys | widget->move(QPoint(10, 10)); |
| 15:53.00 | Adys | \o/ |
| 15:53.02 | Adys | ~qt++ |
| 15:53.19 | Maldivia | hmm, speaking (ok half an hour ago) about icons embedded into fontstring, anyone tested on the PTR if they fixed the text tearing issue that occurs after icons embedded? |
| 15:54.04 | Adys | positive they havent |
| 15:54.20 | Maldivia | at times, makes text almost unreadable |
| 15:54.44 | Adys | yep :/ |
| 15:54.53 | olafski | hm never noticed that.. where does it occur? |
| 15:55.02 | Maldivia | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:55.36 | Adys | hmm |
| 15:55.44 | Adys | actually it seems they have |
| 15:55.49 | Adys | there is still some very minor tearing |
| 15:55.54 | Maldivia | olafski: I notice it every day in the chat frames, because I prefix all item/spell/achievement/etc links with the corresponding icon |
| 15:56.49 | olafski | hmm |
| 15:57.04 | olafski | like if someone uses {star} or does it have to be actual spell/item links? |
| 15:57.10 | Adys | yeah even then |
| 15:57.12 | Maldivia | same deal |
| 15:57.24 | Adys | i actually thought it was a wine bug a while back |
| 15:57.27 | nevcairiel | Maldivia: you can pretty much fix the tearing yourself |
| 15:57.27 | Adys | and that was before wlk |
| 15:57.47 | nevcairiel | just adjust your uiscale by very tiny amounts until it goes away |
| 15:58.21 | Maldivia | hmm, so it their scaling that does it |
| 15:58.31 | Adys | Oo |
| 15:58.37 | Adys | i didnt know that |
| 15:59.30 | Maldivia | so changing ui scale fgrom 0.81 to 0.810001 will be enough, or lasrger steps? |
| 15:59.51 | olafski | ohh.. guess that's why I never noticed, I don't use ui scale |
| 15:59.52 | nevcairiel | just make a macro that increase it by 0.001 and run that until its good |
| 16:00.08 | nevcairiel | or decrease, for that matter |
| 16:00.24 | olafski | blegh out of sata cables |
| 16:00.33 | Maldivia | hope it wont fuck up the rest of my ui too much - most of it is using "pixel" precision at the moment :P |
| 16:00.50 | nevcairiel | If you want pixel precision, setup for the perfect uiscale |
| 16:00.56 | nevcairiel | the font issue shouldnt happen with it either |
| 16:01.51 | *** join/#wowuidev Taroven (HydraIRC@HW-ESR1-208-102-8-69.fuse.net) |
| 16:02.10 | Taroven | Aaaand back with shiny half-my-ram w7x86 install. |
| 16:03.55 | olafski | instead of just fixing the issue |
| 16:04.34 | Taroven | Heh, I've been /headdesking about it for months. |
| 16:04.46 | *** join/#wowuidev NiLon (nilon@unaffiliated/nilon) |
| 16:05.11 | Taroven | No big deal really. 3.5gb's quite enough for my purposes, and I have yet to find a retail w7x64 install that's behaved normally. |
| 16:05.43 | olafski | can I have the rest of your ram? |
| 16:05.46 | olafski | my OS can make use of it =) |
| 16:05.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Gnarfoz (smallbrain@WoWUIDev/WowAce/Gnarfoz) |
| 16:05.52 | nevcairiel | my OCD would already not allow me to have 2.5gb of wasted ram around :D |
| 16:05.59 | Taroven | XD |
| 16:06.04 | Taroven | Yeah nev, I know. |
| 16:06.08 | Taroven | I loathe it. |
| 16:06.14 | *** join/#wowuidev xilcoy (~xilcoy@61-217-144-200.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 16:06.15 | olafski | woot found a sata cable.. now to figure out if I can actually boot from sata =( |
| 16:06.43 | Taroven | But on the other hand... better than fighting x64's angst against my comp. |
| 16:06.53 | Adys | eh |
| 16:07.00 | Taroven | Best of luck to you, olafski. |
| 16:07.01 | olafski | just keep blaming the software :P |
| 16:07.02 | Adys | x64 doesnt have issues nowadays |
| 16:07.11 | Adys | its actually more often the opposite |
| 16:07.13 | nevcairiel | Adys: apparently his x64 is haunted and just breaks |
| 16:07.16 | nevcairiel | i call pebcak :p |
| 16:07.28 | Taroven | I don't claim it's x64 that has issues with anything, I claim that my computer has issues with x64. |
| 16:07.33 | Adys | i call pebcai386c |
| 16:07.48 | Taroven | lawl Adys. |
| 16:07.51 | nevcairiel | lol |
| 16:08.04 | Taroven | And nev, it really is haunted. |
| 16:08.05 | Taroven | Was. |
| 16:08.07 | olafski | I call "why won't this program recognise my sql server installation" :( |
| 16:08.07 | Taroven | Whatever. |
| 16:08.17 | nevcairiel | but its true, for "new" stuff, x86 would even be worse |
| 16:08.23 | nevcairiel | especially on the linux front |
| 16:09.06 | Adys | aye |
| 16:09.07 | nevcairiel | I wish i could just get rid of all 32-bit applications |
| 16:09.11 | Adys | aye. |
| 16:09.23 | Taroven | I can't even run Linux these days. My mouse is flat-out incompatible and I really don't want to replace it. |
| 16:09.30 | Taroven | Sad, sad situation there. |
| 16:09.32 | Adys | Im watching closely wine's progress with full 32/64bit integration and abstraction |
| 16:09.51 | kd3 | mouse? incompatible? is it one of those 8404-button mice? |
| 16:09.53 | theorbtwo | Taroven: Your *mouse*? That's ... strange. |
| 16:09.57 | Gnarfoz | ironic that I read that as "obstruction" first? y/n |
| 16:09.59 | olafski | also unlikely :P |
| 16:10.18 | nevcairiel | Does wine ever consider doing a WOW64 mode of sorts? Or am i pretty much locked in choosing either 32 or 64? |
| 16:10.19 | Taroven | theorbtwo: Razer Naga. Ubuntu doesn't recognize it at all for some reason. |
| 16:10.39 | olafski | that doesn't mean it's "incompatible with linux" does it? :s |
| 16:10.40 | Adys | aye nevcairiel, a wow64 is already in the works |
| 16:10.47 | kd3 | nev; it's getting implemented now |
| 16:10.53 | nevcairiel | nice. |
| 16:10.55 | Fisker | wat Adys ? |
| 16:11.06 | Adys | Fisker: windows on windows64 |
| 16:11.06 | Taroven | Well, Razer's flat out said they don't support Linux for the naga. |
| 16:11.09 | nevcairiel | Windows-On-Windows, not World of Warcraft :P |
| 16:11.27 | nevcairiel | honestly, the evdev driver pretty much works for every mouse o.o |
| 16:11.28 | Fisker | fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu |
| 16:11.33 | Adys | owned tbh |
| 16:11.35 | Fisker | i thought you mean world of warcraft 64 :P |
| 16:11.46 | Taroven | And from personal experience with Linux vs Mouse, they don't get along. |
| 16:11.48 | theorbtwo | Taroven: Razer not supporting linux doesn't mean that linux won't support razer. |
| 16:12.00 | kd3 | hugs his mx revo |
| 16:12.06 | Adys | hugs his mx revo |
| 16:12.07 | Taroven | True story. The open source community always wins. |
| 16:12.10 | olafski | from the context it was quite obvious that he didn't mean world of warcraft |
| 16:12.24 | olafski | hugs his mx revo |
| 16:12.29 | Adys | Im starting to really miss a wheel button though :/ |
| 16:12.35 | Adys | particularly when working in blender |
| 16:12.38 | Maldivia | mx 518! |
| 16:12.44 | Adys | Maldivia: is it wireless? |
| 16:12.46 | nevcairiel | imho the mx revo is kinda ugly |
| 16:12.48 | Taroven | No big deal for me, I <3 my linux distros, but I spend WAY too much time fiddling with the gui for my own good. |
| 16:12.49 | Maldivia | Adys: no |
| 16:12.50 | nevcairiel | hugs his g5 |
| 16:12.54 | Adys | then thats a no |
| 16:13.04 | Taroven | Maldivia: <3 the mx518. |
| 16:13.12 | theorbtwo | Taroven: If you want to get it working, I'd be happy to try to help you. |
| 16:13.15 | nevcairiel | wireless .. shh, always going out of batterys in a criticial moment |
| 16:13.23 | *** part/#wowuidev Cairenn (~Cairenn@MMOI/Administratrix/Cairenn) |
| 16:13.26 | Adys | if someone can find me the equivalent of a mx revolution that doesn't have a shitty charger and has a real wheel button, PLEASE tell me |
| 16:13.32 | Taroven | theorbtwo: I'll let ya know next time I give it a shot. I'd love to get it working. |
| 16:13.43 | nevcairiel | I love teh G5 .. and if you want wireless, get a G7 :P |
| 16:13.47 | Adys | btw kd3 did you ever get the sidewheel working? |
| 16:13.57 | Fisker | hug his mx revo |
| 16:14.04 | kd3 | I don't really use it, but sure |
| 16:14.10 | kd3 | points to 'btnx' |
| 16:14.11 | Adys | really O_o |
| 16:14.15 | Taroven | From the extreme few posts I've found on the matter, the side buttons won't work at all (ow!) but apparently it HAS worked for at least one person. |
| 16:14.24 | Fisker | maybe if i had read the whole discussion olafski :P |
| 16:14.35 | nevcairiel | you probably need to setup some advanced mapping rules to get those buttons to work |
| 16:14.40 | Taroven | Yeah. |
| 16:14.41 | kd3 | I mainly use the side buttons atop the side wheel |
| 16:14.47 | olafski | nevcairiel: is usb booting supported on a motherboard that's 5 years old? cause I don't see it in the boot menu screen=( |
| 16:14.48 | kd3 | back/forward automagically in fx |
| 16:15.13 | theorbtwo | olafski: I want to say "probably". |
| 16:15.16 | Taroven | My google-fu isn't doing much for the matter, since searching for linux + razer naga turns up with just about every page mentioning the naga and nothing useful. |
| 16:15.17 | Adys | kd3: lol.. apt-get segfault when installing btnx |
| 16:15.21 | Adys | thats starting off well |
| 16:15.24 | kd3 | lmao |
| 16:15.38 | olafski | gonna burn a dvd with win7, just in case I can't get usb booting to work ;p |
| 16:16.12 | *** join/#wowuidev Xinhuan (~xinhuan@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/xinhuan) |
| 16:16.14 | nevcairiel | you get dvd media as well just to be safe, eh :p |
| 16:16.15 | Fisker | what do you mean? |
| 16:16.26 | *** join/#wowuidev Cairenn (~Cairenn@MMOI/Administratrix/Cairenn) |
| 16:16.26 | Fisker | doesn't work = boot up and try again |
| 16:16.26 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Cairenn] by ChanServ |
| 16:16.28 | Fisker | durr |
| 16:16.36 | olafski | nevcairiel: nah I found them in a box.. were still boxed from when I moved to this apartment |
| 16:16.36 | Fisker | (even though it does unless your board sucks) |
| 16:17.00 | Adys | kd3: did you compile btnx? ubuntu package is segfaulting like crazy |
| 16:17.06 | kd3 | ya |
| 16:17.19 | Adys | k |
| 16:17.28 | kd3 | it's not even in the fedora repos |
| 16:17.36 | kd3 | looks for a bug report |
| 16:17.49 | Adys | well the site at least looks outdated as hell |
| 16:17.51 | theorbtwo | From what I'm finding, it's just a usb hid mouse and keyboard. |
| 16:17.54 | theorbtwo | Should work just fine. |
| 16:18.00 | Adys | i dunno about how up to date the codebase is |
| 16:18.18 | Adys | March 2, 2009 |
| 16:18.18 | Adys | btnx might not work as intended on some distros anymore. If you want a highly configurable application for configuring your mouse, try easystroke. It was created for gesture-recognition but can also serve as a way to configure mouse buttons. |
| 16:18.36 | Taroven | w7x86 setup progress: TortoiseSVN with shell extensions done (worked first try, last time on x64 took turning UAC off AND running as admin manually to get extensions working), WinRAR + shell extensions (same thing)... |
| 16:18.46 | Taroven | Everything else... portable or working as intended. |
| 16:18.56 | kd3 | the biggest reason I use it is for revoco, to control the mouse wheel. the other buttons thing is just an unintended benefit |
| 16:18.59 | olafski | nevcairiel: regardless I'd prefer usb as it's faster and.. the pc I'm installing on doesn't have a dvd player.. :) |
| 16:19.01 | nevcairiel | ewww winrar |
| 16:19.05 | nevcairiel | evil program from hell |
| 16:19.13 | olafski | oh dear here we go again with the rar :P |
| 16:19.23 | nevcairiel | nah, just the client |
| 16:19.24 | kd3 | s/control the mouse wheel/get my middle mouse button back/ |
| 16:19.27 | Taroven | Winrar 3.62 corporate version. Love it. |
| 16:19.36 | Taroven | What's so evil about it? |
| 16:19.38 | nevcairiel | get the 7z client, its faster, too |
| 16:19.41 | kd3 | ^ |
| 16:19.42 | nevcairiel | its commercial! |
| 16:19.42 | Adys | kd3: it can do that? |
| 16:19.44 | Taroven | I use both nev. |
| 16:19.47 | kd3 | ya |
| 16:19.50 | nevcairiel | Why? |
| 16:19.56 | nevcairiel | 7z can unpack everything |
| 16:19.57 | Adys | kd3: omgdotell |
| 16:20.17 | Adys | kd3: actually, i dont suppose you got a config file of sorts i can use? |
| 16:20.20 | Gnarfoz | nevcairiel: does bt3 work on live atm? |
| 16:20.20 | Taroven | Dunno really. I use 7z for the commandline and winrar for the interface. |
| 16:20.27 | nevcairiel | Gnarfoz: of course not |
| 16:20.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Desik (~47c9035f@gateway/web/freenode/x-jvaknnvfxgmhgwav) |
| 16:20.53 | Gnarfoz | nevcairiel: thought so, just got a raid app who claims bartender3 as being part of his UI. :p |
| 16:21.02 | nevcairiel | heh |
| 16:21.08 | nevcairiel | it never worked in 3.0 |
| 16:21.23 | nevcairiel | and even less in 3.1 =) |
| 16:21.35 | Taroven | lawl. |
| 16:21.55 | Taroven | Gogo Dominos. |
| 16:22.09 | nevcairiel | You miss the point :d |
| 16:22.19 | Taroven | Not at all. =P |
| 16:22.25 | Gnarfoz | yes, you do ;) |
| 16:22.34 | Adys | bartender wins |
| 16:22.36 | nevcairiel | Bartender4 was there to replace Barteder3 in 2.x already |
| 16:22.37 | kd3 | adys, http://wowi.pastey.net, top three pastes on the right |
| 16:22.42 | nevcairiel | and 3.0 just deprecated it completly |
| 16:22.50 | Taroven | Well aware. |
| 16:22.50 | nevcairiel | since i didnt fix it :P |
| 16:22.57 | Adys | kd3: much love |
| 16:24.25 | Adys | kd3: nice /etc config spam too =| |
| 16:24.43 | kd3 | bah, path's wrong. it's /etc/btnx/<foo> not /etc/<foo> |
| 16:24.48 | Adys | oh |
| 16:24.51 | Adys | thank god |
| 16:25.54 | Adys | kd3: /etc/btnx/btnx_foo? or without btnx_ ? |
| 16:26.00 | kd3 | with |
| 16:26.26 | Taroven | Grah, I really need a new irc client. |
| 16:26.31 | Adys | xchat |
| 16:26.40 | Maldivia | telnet |
| 16:26.42 | Maldivia | :P |
| 16:26.50 | Taroven | Heh. |
| 16:26.50 | Adys | keep up those pongs |
| 16:27.04 | Maldivia | well, you just have to be active enough, then it's not a problem |
| 16:27.09 | Taroven | Never tried xchat. I'll have to give it a go.; |
| 16:27.23 | Taroven | s/;// |
| 16:27.28 | Adys | kd3: is btnx-config relevant as well? |
| 16:27.30 | Taroven | blargs. |
| 16:27.35 | Adys | Taroven: it's good, but it has shitty defaults |
| 16:27.46 | Adys | so you gotta spend a few mins setting it up |
| 16:27.54 | Taroven | Never mind the setup process. |
| 16:27.59 | kd3 | gotta install it to run the daemon. I only start/stop the daemon to reset the mouse wheel if the battery dies |
| 16:28.13 | Adys | O_o |
| 16:28.17 | kd3 | it's stupid |
| 16:28.19 | kd3 | I know |
| 16:28.21 | Adys | in 2 years, my mx's battery never died |
| 16:28.22 | Taroven | Does it handle pings/message highlighting better than HydraIRC does? |
| 16:28.28 | Adys | er, yeah sure |
| 16:28.35 | Adys | you cant regex it tho |
| 16:28.35 | kd3 | I'm bad about letting it died |
| 16:28.44 | kd3 | s/died/die/ |
| 16:28.48 | Adys | it does have a short battery life :/ |
| 16:29.02 | Taroven | I'm spoiled on my old Pidgin IRC setup... |
| 16:29.09 | Adys | ew |
| 16:29.29 | Adys | pidgin = ew |
| 16:29.37 | Adys | pidgin irc = ertghghklrlhglewww |
| 16:29.38 | Maldivia | irssi works fine for me :P |
| 16:29.39 | Taroven | Yeah, thus why I don't use it anymore. |
| 16:30.06 | Taroven | I had the IRC portion set up perfectly at one point though. |
| 16:30.19 | olafski | adys: with never died do you mean never ran out before you placed it in the charger? |
| 16:30.20 | Taroven | Loved how it worked, hated using it. |
| 16:30.33 | Adys | olafski: yah |
| 16:30.51 | olafski | alright |
| 16:30.56 | olafski | yeah think it never did that for me either |
| 16:31.02 | Adys | it has something like 16 hours 100% usage before the battery runs dry |
| 16:31.05 | olafski | even when it says battery critical you can still use it for like 3 days |
| 16:31.06 | Adys | at least mine does |
| 16:31.12 | Adys | what the hell? |
| 16:31.25 | kd3 | so does mine, but I never look at the battery life indicator so I usually don't charge it |
| 16:31.26 | Adys | do you keyboard turn or what? |
| 16:31.30 | olafski | no :( |
| 16:31.37 | olafski | maybe it's 2 days.. but a pretty damn long time |
| 16:32.08 | olafski | it's not as if it says "critical" and I go "oh shit, better finish this dungeon fast or I'll not be able to use my mouse" |
| 16:32.30 | olafski | I do get the feeling that some buttons become less responsive when the battery is low though.. but that sounds really unlikely |
| 16:32.47 | Adys | I've had that, but it wasnt the battery |
| 16:32.51 | Adys | i just replugged the usb receptor |
| 16:32.56 | olafski | hmm |
| 16:33.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Taroven (Taroven3@HW-ESR1-208-102-8-69.fuse.net) |
| 16:33.07 | olafski | it seems odd that they only respond like 20% of the times |
| 16:33.13 | olafski | that sounds like a mechanical failure to me |
| 16:33.19 | Adys | it wasnt buttons |
| 16:33.23 | Taroven | There we go... |
| 16:33.24 | olafski | ah |
| 16:33.26 | Adys | it was the movement |
| 16:33.31 | olafski | for me it was the thumb button |
| 16:33.43 | olafski | I use that for rejuvenation and sometimes I had to click it a lot of times before it worked |
| 16:33.50 | Adys | er yeah. i never used that one until somewhere in the next 5 minutes |
| 16:34.01 | olafski | :P |
| 16:34.10 | Adys | unless you mean the side buttons |
| 16:34.16 | Adys | not the sidewheel |
| 16:34.37 | *** join/#wowuidev NiLon (nilon@unaffiliated/nilon) |
| 16:34.42 | olafski | I mean those buttons with the little arrows on them |
| 16:34.48 | olafski | dunno what they are supposed to do outside of wow |
| 16:34.58 | olafski | they're on the side, above the wheel |
| 16:35.28 | Adys | eh, chrome is default-configured to have back/forward bound to them |
| 16:35.38 | Adys | which i cant live without btw |
| 16:35.47 | olafski | ah |
| 16:35.51 | olafski | I use gestures |
| 16:36.08 | Adys | not only because it lets me navigate without keyboard |
| 16:36.08 | olafski | I think they default to forward/back in firefox too.. never tried |
| 16:36.28 | Adys | since those two buttons, nor the wheel, dont give focus to the chrome window |
| 16:36.51 | Adys | i can keep a chrome window open and browse pretty much any inputless website i want |
| 16:36.59 | Adys | while keeping irc/wow tabbed in |
| 16:37.11 | olafski | nice |
| 16:37.19 | Adys | tabnav with wheel and backforward with sidebuttons |
| 16:37.24 | olafski | hm. booting from usb isn't listed in the features of my motherboard.. guess I'll have to hook up a dvd player :( |
| 16:37.47 | Adys | olafski: if its a recent mb, it's a feature even if it's not listed |
| 16:37.56 | Adys | recent as in younger than 6 years or so |
| 16:38.14 | olafski | hm I can't find the invoice for it |
| 16:38.21 | olafski | it has to be around 5 years I think |
| 16:38.32 | olafski | an Asus K8V-X SE |
| 16:38.40 | Adys | mm dunno then |
| 16:38.48 | olafski | maybe I need to use the back USB ports instead of those at the front of the pc |
| 16:39.08 | Adys | thats prolly a good idea |
| 16:39.15 | olafski | hm that doesn't make much sense actually.. it does list the thing when booting :( |
| 16:39.21 | olafski | but I'll try it :P |
| 16:39.30 | Adys | what are you trying to do anyway? |
| 16:39.52 | *** join/#wowuidev Kalroth (kalroth@d40aaeb2.rev.stofanet.dk) |
| 16:39.54 | olafski | install windows 7 |
| 16:40.56 | Taroven | olafski: Did you check if USB was in the boot device priority list at all? |
| 16:41.11 | olafski | yes |
| 16:41.15 | olafski | it's not there, and I can't select it |
| 16:41.23 | Taroven | Crapola. |
| 16:42.24 | olafski | the bios tells me it has 1 keyboard, 1 mouse and 2(?) drives, all usb.. odd, unless the printer counts as a drive or something |
| 16:42.41 | Taroven | It might. |
| 16:43.13 | Taroven | Does the printer happen to have an sd card slot or something similar for cameras/etc? |
| 16:43.16 | Adys | olafski: if you got a floppy, it probably counts it as one |
| 16:43.20 | Kraps | here we have a textbook example of "chain pulling != faster runs" |
| 16:43.22 | Adys | even if its empty |
| 16:43.35 | olafski | hm the printer does have one of those readers I think |
| 16:43.43 | olafski | adys: even if it's an ide floppy? |
| 16:43.50 | Taroven | Kraps: Pullpullpullpullwipe? |
| 16:43.52 | Adys | particularly if its an ide floppy |
| 16:43.55 | olafski | mkay |
| 16:44.11 | Adys | recent motherboards dont care anymore |
| 16:45.12 | olafski | hm. well nothing in the bios about usb booting.. if it still doesn't show up on the boot menu I'll hook up that dvd player. need to open the case to take out the old windows drive anyway |
| 16:45.14 | Kraps | Taroven: yep |
| 16:45.19 | Kraps | pally healer |
| 16:45.24 | Taroven | Ouch. |
| 16:47.13 | *** join/#wowuidev spode (spode@213-21-77-27.bon.t3.se) |
| 16:49.39 | *** join/#wowuidev DWSR_ (~c04b8bfa@gateway/web/freenode/x-vzijhizayeckipnk) |
| 16:49.43 | DWSR_ | wassup |
| 16:52.19 | *** join/#wowuidev xilcoy (~xilcoy@61-217-144-200.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 19:16.12 | *** join/#wowuidev purl (ibot@rikers.org) |
| 19:16.12 | *** topic/#wowuidev is http://wowuidev.pastey.net/ | 3.3.x ToC: 30300 | #WoWUIDev-commits: CIA & JIRA bots reporting | Happy St. Patrick's Day! |
| 19:16.30 | Lopeppeppy | ~botsnack |
| 19:16.30 | purl | Lopeppeppy: :) |
| 19:17.00 | alestane | Ah, you're feeding purl because she's here. |
| 19:19.41 | alestane | I just passed a pallie in a guild called <Wicked Desire> |
| 19:20.39 | Lopeppeppy | It's nice to have her around. |
| 19:22.34 | *** join/#wowuidev sioraiocht (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht) |
